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| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: neither | 01:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ahaha | 03:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Does this remind anybody else of something? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/playmg/mg-first-portable-gaming-system-for-the-android-ma?ref=category | 03:58 |
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| Ken-Young | I had a perfectly working Maemo 5 scratchbox SDK running on my laptop, but foolishly I "upgraded" to the most recent version of Ubuntu, and now the Hildon widgets in my scratchbox environment no longer work properly. Mouse clicks are ignored, pulldown menus only partiially appear, etc. Does anyone know how a problem like this can be fixed, or how old a version of Ubuntu I would need to install to have the Maemo 5 SDK work properly? | 03:58 |
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| LaoLang_cool | Put n900's battery out for a long time, then put it in and start n900, n900 will prompt to set date and time | 04:26 |
| LaoLang_cool | My question is: how to change the prompt to another default date, time and the time zone? | 04:27 |
| LaoLang_cool | So I don't need to adjust the time zone next time it prompts | 04:28 |
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| kerio | LaoLang_coo_: don't remove the battery, easy | 09:11 |
| kerio | i mean, duh | 09:11 |
| LaoLang_coo_ | kerio, but I need to change battery when it runs out of the capacity | 09:14 |
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| kerio | swap them quickly then :) | 09:21 |
| kerio | even if the bupbat is thoroughly fucked, there are still capacitors that will resist a second or two | 09:21 |
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| LaoLang_coo_ | kerio, ok, I'm looking for another way :) | 09:23 |
| kerio | \_o_/ | 09:26 |
| kerio | my timezone is set correctly | 09:26 |
| kerio | i mean, when i have to set the time | 09:27 |
| kerio | at that point, i just tap "save" and then open gpsrecorder | 09:27 |
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| LaoLang_coo_ | kerio, you are lucky | 09:32 |
| kerio | i mean that theoretically of course | 09:34 |
| kerio | my bupbat still works =D | 09:34 |
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| kerio | Estel_: btw, have you tried ~n900-full-reset to fix the charger silliness? | 11:00 |
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| dxgxcg | ~n900-full-reset | 11:17 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, n900-full-reset is when the user presses the PWRON (power-on) button for 8 seconds and removes the battery in the next 8 seconds, the TPS65950 enters NO SUPPLY state instead of BACKUP state, even if a valid backup battery is present. In such a situation, the backup domain registers are also reset, along with the VRRTC domain registers. | 11:17 |
| *** dxgxcg is now known as Estel_ | 11:17 | |
| Estel_ | good point, never tried it | 11:17 |
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| edheldil | Hi all, since yesterday I have several times experienced problem with my n900, that SIM card was disconnected and message displayed about "all telephone functions disabled". It always happened (I think) when I was carrying the phone in pocket. Is it a known terminal bug with n9000s, or is it more likely just a bad SIM? | 11:24 |
| edheldil | s/terminal/fatal/ | 11:24 |
| infobot | edheldil meant: Hi all, since yesterday I have several times experienced problem with my n900, that SIM card was disconnected and message displayed about "all telephone functions disabled". It always happened (I think) when I was carrying the phone in pocket. Is it a kno... | 11:24 |
| edheldil | that was really helpful, infobot :-D | 11:25 |
| Macer | mine has the same problem | 11:26 |
| jacekowski | edheldil: it may be just mechanical issue | 11:27 |
| jacekowski | edheldil: of sim not making good contact | 11:27 |
| Macer | some have had luck by carefully bending the pins upwards | 11:27 |
| jacekowski | though, it may be problem with rapuyama | 11:27 |
| Macer | some by folding a piece of apper and shoving it between the cover and the battery | 11:27 |
| Macer | and some (like mine) it is a hardware issue | 11:27 |
| Macer | :-/ | 11:27 |
| jacekowski | you can check if you can get at interface to rapuyama when that happens | 11:27 |
| Macer | rauyama? | 11:28 |
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| edheldil | jacekowski: what's that? | 11:42 |
| kerio | rapuyama is the actual phone in the n900 | 11:45 |
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| edheldil | and how can I check that I can get to rapuyama? I might be able to test with multimeter's probes somewhere accessible, but that's about the extent of my options | 11:50 |
| edheldil | easily accessible | 11:50 |
| jacekowski | atd | 11:51 |
| jacekowski | iirc | 11:51 |
| jacekowski | there is a command that allows you to get rapuyama AT interface | 11:51 |
| jacekowski | and then you can check if it responds to at commands | 11:52 |
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| edheldil | jacekowski: thanks | 12:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | pnatd | 13:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then type (blind?) 'AT<enter>' and it shall answer 'OK' | 13:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at+cfun? might help too | 13:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | showing current operating mode of rapu | 13:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dafaq, my N900 has black screen :-/ | 13:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Aug 31 12:06:04 IroN900 mce[814]: Error sending with reply to com.nokia.system_ui.request.tklock_close: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken. | 13:08 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 and Estel_ | 13:14 |
| ivgalvez | about your recent discussion | 13:14 |
| ivgalvez | for sure not the last one | 13:14 |
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| ivgalvez | Estel_: "DocScrutinizer05, You're also warned officially. There actually is ongoing process of revieving Your mental ability to be chanop in *any* Maemo channel. Of cours,e due to your constaint threat of kick/ban/whatever pathetic, while You lsoe Your nerves during discussion. just for sake of your contributions to being chanop - get a deep breath, go for a walk..." ---> This is not true, there | 13:16 |
| ivgalvez | isn't any official process in progress to review chanop position of DocScrutinizer05 | 13:16 |
| ivgalvez | However, I must say that both of you are absolutely unpolite | 13:16 |
| ivgalvez | this is a discussion forum not a tavern | 13:17 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05: "so I declare busybox-power as a ban'able subjext in this chan just for you" --> This threat is not fair | 13:17 |
| ivgalvez | Please chill out | 13:18 |
| * Luke-Jr notes that X-Fade owns #maemo and DocScrutinizer05 owns #harmattan, and anyone else making threats regarding chanop status is just a power-grab. | 13:19 | |
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| edheldil | DocScrutinizer05: will try that next time it breaks, thank you | 13:21 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_: if you want to present any accusation about DocScrutinizer05 abusing chanop position you must send a message to Community mailing list instead of PM me | 13:22 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_"well, for me it isn't, and higher authorities will investigate it - along with other evidence of DocScrutinizer05 abuse (which was already considered valid)." --> This is again an invalid assumption, you must present any allegation you consider in the open. | 13:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: you can safely ignore all that, it's just because Estel_ doen't get how IRC works | 13:24 |
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| ivgalvez | anyway I beg you all to relax a bit | 13:31 |
| ivgalvez | and lowdown the tone | 13:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | i see it's going on on all chans | 13:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | TMO and here :P | 13:32 |
| ZogG_laptop | i think some people should stop being childish and play idiotic games. | 13:33 |
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| ZogG_laptop | and DocScrutinizer05 was kicking and banning people for few years (mostly threating), but he is ok with being chanop most times. so i think if it's only one person that has problems with him, as well as same person having and searching the problem with others. so it's not Doc a problem at all :) | 13:34 |
| ZogG_laptop | DocScrutinizer05: :-* | 13:34 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, so, you preffer me to start flame war with irc logs aetc on mailing list... | 13:34 |
| Estel_ | Instead of writing it to people with higher authority over maemo's irc? | 13:35 |
| Estel_ | fair enough | 13:35 |
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| Estel_ | ivgalvez, if that's what You want, no problems, but I doubt that we need Council at all, if we need to do everything on our own, all the time. | 13:35 |
| Estel_ | if You preffer it like that, i'll post it into mailing list - including Your explanation why You don't want to remove him from chanop *yet*. | 13:36 |
| Estel_ | (quoted from PM's) | 13:36 |
| Estel_ | I hardly feel it approriate, but You don't leave me other choice. | 13:36 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez ^^^ | 13:36 |
| ZogG_laptop | oh noooooooo | 13:37 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_ now you're going too far | 13:37 |
| ZogG_laptop | ivgalvez: i think the best way is just to grab popcorn :P | 13:37 |
| ivgalvez | I haven't said "I don't want to remove him from chanop yet" | 13:38 |
| ZogG_laptop | he made a fool of himself once, let him do it again | 13:38 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_ You are trying to conduct your personal war against DocScrutinizer05 for IRC power since the very first day you were selected for Council and you were told by the rest of the members to stop that and that you were trying to abuse your position | 13:40 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, as far as I remember, my "personal war" was just like now - mentioning abuse and wanting to take official action about it | 13:40 |
| Estel_ | now, You're councilor. | 13:40 |
| Estel_ | if You write me, using Pm, one thing (about how you agree, but don't want to do it in hard times of tranformation), and come here, to write another things | 13:41 |
| Estel_ | it's unfair, IMO | 13:41 |
| Estel_ | if You're begging for transparency, i'll give it to You. | 13:41 |
| Estel_ | now, you're trying to show me in bad light, ignoring our previous conversations. | 13:41 |
| ivgalvez | I told you that I thought it wasn't time, with such big challenges ahead, to start such a fight | 13:42 |
| Estel_ | I acknowledge that for Council, Irc chanop management is totally rogue - i.e, it's left for people that have chanop now to do whatever they want, without any consequences. I'll hapilly comfort that with things you have written before | 13:42 |
| Estel_ | should I quote?" | 13:42 |
| Luke-Jr | the Council has no authority over the IRC channels, kthx | 13:42 |
| ivgalvez | not that I wanted to remove DocScrutinizer05 | 13:42 |
| Estel_ | "It's always the same with this guy [ DocScrutinizer05 ], i'm bored with that". then, comes part about hard times. | 13:42 |
| Estel_ | X-Fade told us, that he is willing to give Council rights over IRc management | 13:43 |
| Estel_ | as he is founder | 13:43 |
| Estel_ | leaving cooperation with Nokia. | 13:43 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_: BULLSHIT!!! that was referring to discussions about whatr can be included in CSSU and whatnot | 13:43 |
| Estel_ | You know what? Leaving diplomacy aside, i'm tired of this bullshit, I can hapilly live with fucked up IRC stuffed with mad chanops, or without irc channel at all. | 13:43 |
| Luke-Jr | sigh | 13:44 |
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| Estel_ | ivgalvez, OK - I'll post whole, unaltered PM's, for people to judge | 13:44 |
| Estel_ | if Council doesn't want to touch it, it's not my problem, too | 13:44 |
| Estel_ | just don't complaion, when people rise doubts about Council doing *any* thing, at all. | 13:44 |
| Estel_ | what You have done here, is essentially and literally ensuring abusive chanop, that he will be left to do whatever he want. | 13:45 |
| Estel_ | I'mtired of this bullshit enough, to declare this topic void and null in my personal book. | 13:45 |
| ivgalvez | that's also not true | 13:45 |
| Estel_ | I'm not talking about intentions - just about results | 13:45 |
| Estel_ | whatever, not my problem anyway | 13:45 |
| ivgalvez | I haven't give any abusive power to any one | 13:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if only this one line would result in appropriate consequences taken | 13:46 |
| Estel_ | yea, it's not Council responsibility. It's X-Fade. The problem is that he is LEAVING. even before that, he agreed to remove chanops, if asked by Council. | 13:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | if everyone around you are wrong, maybe the problem is you? | 13:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | incorrrect, learn2IRC | 13:46 |
| Estel_ | Now, he wanted to cooperate with Council about give all administrative tools, which Council, of course, refused to accept - as with every thing that require responsibility | 13:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | protip: /cs help | 13:46 |
| Estel_ | my problem with Council - Council doesn't want to take *any* responsibility about *anything* at all, ivgalvez. results:" everytrhing is left as rogue | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I.E. chan founder is primary responsible of a chan | 13:47 |
| Estel_ | if official maemo's IRc channels are not Council responsibility, who the fuck is responsible for it? | 13:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but hey, it | 13:47 |
| Estel_ | founder is LEAVING | 13:47 |
| Estel_ | X-Fade is founder | 13:47 |
| Estel_ | he want to pass rights to Council | 13:47 |
| Estel_ | |Council doesn't want to take it | 13:47 |
| Estel_ | results - no one is maintaining it, DocScrutinizer05 and other pathetic egomaniacs are happy | 13:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | because council is changing | 13:48 |
| Estel_ | topic closed | 13:48 |
| Estel_ | see ya. | 13:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | and council is not community kings | 13:48 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_: you have the right to present any complaint for IRC management, I just told you I thought it wasn't the right moment because that would be harmful for the community | 13:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 's about estel_ phone, so it's to be ruled by him (or council), no matter if IRC, or repos, or admin of servers, or the sales price | 13:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | community is comunity and it worked like that for a long time | 13:48 |
| ivgalvez | and if you want to present a complain you must do it officially | 13:48 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, sure. My opinion is that irc channels without anyone feeling responsible for it, is more harmful | 13:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | and as X-Fade gave doc chanop and doc still has it, there are reasons | 13:48 |
| ivgalvez | perfect, then ellaborate and send it to community mailibng list | 13:48 |
| Estel_ | I did it officially, to people that i felt were responsible. It turned out, that those people are not responsible for *anything*. No problem - acknowledged | 13:49 |
| ivgalvez | but don't say that actions will be taken speaking for Council | 13:49 |
| Estel_ | sure | 13:49 |
| Estel_ | well | 13:49 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: if you believe we're being egomaniacs about how me manage #maemo, try stepping a foot in #php, #gentoo or #linuxmint-* | 13:49 |
| Estel_ | I wont forget to mention your PM's and explain, why I took them as declararation of taking care about problem. | 13:49 |
| ZogG_laptop | officially == pm'ed one of council's i know about my hard life at irc? | 13:49 |
| ivgalvez | Absolutely not, you know that Council is not in charge of naming anyone to be in charge of anything | 13:50 |
| Estel_ | ZogG_laptop, while You're just trying to troll, I'll actually answer You - oficially = collected every situation of DocScrutinizer05 threating about abusing power without *any* real merit to do so... | 13:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* Estel_ redefining IRC. May I suggest you /join #freenode and elaborate about it there? | 13:50 |
| Estel_ | then, sending it to people that *sahould* be responsible about it | 13:50 |
| Estel_ | it turned out that those people don't feel responsible for IRC - what a surprise | 13:50 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_ you know that Council can't be responsible of IRC | 13:50 |
| Estel_ | so problem is closed | 13:50 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, so who is? | 13:51 |
| ivgalvez | as we cannot be responsible of TMO | 13:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: meh, gentoo is not a good example :P i was banned there for a long time, as i just answered rude for someone i even didn't know on pm :P and after all i mostly helped people there :P | 13:51 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, bullshit. X-Fade already declared that he is willing to work with Council about IRC | 13:51 |
| Estel_ | it's Council who denied! | 13:51 |
| ivgalvez | status of Council refrains for that | 13:51 |
| Estel_ | considering that X-Fade also declared he is leaving, it's just that Council leaves IRC on it's own. | 13:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: officialy is maillist and not starting war on back in private pm as u did! So please... who is trolling | 13:51 |
| ivgalvez | we are just steering group | 13:51 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: and I got banned from #gentoo because I thought an op was abusive, same thing on #php and #linuxmint, even though I always contributed positively | 13:51 |
| Estel_ | ZogG_laptop, mailing list isn't authority governing IRC. | 13:51 |
| Estel_ | Council is, in my book. Or was, as they denied :) | 13:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: it's community comunication | 13:52 |
| teotwaki | (I got banned from #linuxmint for asking why someone got kicked instead of devoiced) | 13:52 |
| Estel_ | got problem with that, ZogG_laptop? | 13:52 |
| Estel_ | teotwaki, nice story, wanna talk about it? | 13:52 |
| ivgalvez | Council cannot take ownership of TMO as well. It's the same than IRC | 13:52 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: I'm good, Dr Freud, but thanks. | 13:52 |
| Estel_ | otherwise, mentioning idiots on other channels, isn't good argument about idiots in our channel. | 13:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NB Estel_ still hasn't managed to understand how IRC works, he's thinking x-fade is chan founder of #maemo-ssu (which is the chan we're talking about right now) | 13:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | it was enuf for you to aprove to get yurself device over maillist and now it's not official for irc? | 13:52 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, so again, please answer | 13:52 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: well, I could ban your arse and be done with this discussion. | 13:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | teotwaki: please do | 13:53 |
| Estel_ | who is responsible over IRC, when X-Fade leaves, and Council denied to take "tools"? | 13:53 |
| teotwaki | I mean, at least it would give you a reason to bitch and moan | 13:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: your channel? your channel? it's community channel. it worked like that before you was here and would be after you go. | 13:53 |
| teotwaki | not that you've ever needed a reason | 13:53 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, I hope You gt question, as it was spammed already ;) | 13:53 |
| ivgalvez | X-Fade is administrator but he leaving doesn't make Council capable of taking ownership | 13:53 |
| teotwaki | if anything, ownership should go back to GA | 13:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: and till now i don't think people had problems with Doc and who did resolved it. for example i had problems with him, but i talked to him and we ok. | 13:54 |
| ivgalvez | because of Council responsibilities doesn¡t fit | 13:54 |
| teotwaki | who I believe, was one of the chanowners, before we provided access to x-fade, just to prevent anyone in the community taking over and abusing it | 13:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | it's just Estel_ wants council to have all and than to be council again when there is all power all over mamemo :) | 13:54 |
| ivgalvez | Board of Directors (if voted) could have more responsibilities than Council | 13:55 |
| teotwaki | well fuck it, he can have it for all I care | 13:55 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, X-Fade wanted Council to take ownership. council refused. | 13:55 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, You're avoiding question | 13:55 |
| *** em has joined #maemo | 13:55 | |
| ivgalvez | No, I'm responding | 13:55 |
| Estel_ | I ask "who is responsible, if X-Fade leaves". | 13:55 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: actually gentoo got more rotten :P and many contributors and old-fags left. but you are welcome at funtoo btw. after it's drobbin's second child :P | 13:55 |
| Estel_ | You're telling me who isn't responsible,. and I'm asking who IS responsible. | 13:55 |
| ivgalvez | That's a problem | 13:55 |
| Estel_ | do you see subtle difference? | 13:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_ is concerned about IRC that he can live without ;-P | 13:55 |
| ivgalvez | the same with servers and all Maemo related stuff | 13:56 |
| Estel_ | I don't want to hear from Council "it's not our problem", I want to hear how You would like to solve this problem. | 13:56 |
| ivgalvez | By-laws | 13:56 |
| ivgalvez | but they must be approved | 13:56 |
| *** VDVsx has quit IRC | 13:56 | |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: owner is owner, but it's also team of people who worked here for a while, they were chanops for a long time and it worked fine | 13:56 |
| ivgalvez | then there will be legal entity capable of taking actions Council can't | 13:56 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, do you realize that irc management is a mess in total? for example, maemo-ssu wasn't founded by X-Fade (but he ensured, that he could take ownership without problems, from freenode) | 13:56 |
| Estel_ | if Council don't want to fix this mess, who shall? ivgalvez? | 13:57 |
| teotwaki | dude | 13:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: are you irc cop? | 13:57 |
| teotwaki | there's what, 6 people on #maemo-ssu? | 13:57 |
| teotwaki | the number of idlers in #maemo is dwindling by the day | 13:57 |
| teotwaki | give it another year, and the channel will be dead | 13:57 |
| merlin1991 | teotwaki: it's 50 on #maemo-ssu | 13:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | and why maemo-ssu should be councilors as well? | 13:57 |
| MrPingu | What happened here? :O | 13:57 |
| ZogG_laptop | the chan was made by cssu creators | 13:58 |
| Estel_ | MrPingu, as ussual ;P | 13:58 |
| teotwaki | Nokia never had a say in CSSU | 13:58 |
| ZogG_laptop | while they did it alone (started CSSU) | 13:58 |
| teotwaki | that was the whole fucking point of CSSU | 13:58 |
| Luke-Jr | Nokia is out of the picture AFAIK | 13:58 |
| teotwaki | so why would X-Fade have had anything to do with CSSU channel ownership? | 13:58 |
| Luke-Jr | #Maemo-SSU is owned by DocScrutinizer05 and MohammadAG | 13:58 |
| teotwaki | #maemo was never a legal representation of the community | 13:58 |
| Estel_ | tetwaki - because it steps in Maemo's community thing, and X-Fade though that Council is actually elected by community for a reason | 13:59 |
| teotwaki | But x-fade has never taken any administrative steps in the channel | 13:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: elected to rule? | 13:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, while some of the more reasonable teach about IRC here, and try to convince Estel_ to take his pills, I have a daywork to pursue | 13:59 |
| ZogG_laptop | is it kingdom? | 13:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bbl | 13:59 |
| teotwaki | his ownership equated to basically, us telling him who to add to the operator lists | 13:59 |
| Estel_ | considering that X-Fade - just like me - though that Council want to be responsible about *anything*, he wanted to claim ownership of maemo-ssu too, if Council ask for it | 13:59 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: ^ | 14:00 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: it would sucks if people like you would have all powers | 14:00 |
| Luke-Jr | Estel_: X-Fade has no authority in #Maemo-SSU | 14:00 |
| Estel_ | teotwaki, saw it. Well, I said it's a mess - especially, considering freenode rules about projects | 14:00 |
| Luke-Jr | neither do freenode staff for that matter | 14:00 |
| ZogG_laptop | than i bet you'll ban more, we saw how u talk when u was council :P | 14:00 |
| ZogG_laptop | and i bet your actuon wouldn't differ | 14:00 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_, jsut a summary: Council is just steering group for the community, doesn't have real powers, no matter what X-Fade, you or any other could think about it. It wouldn't be legal nor moral to claim Council ownership over any Maemo resources | 14:00 |
| Estel_ | Luke-Jr, he would have authority if he wanted too, read freenode rulews about channel names | 14:00 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, currently, Council isn't any steering group, as it doesn't want to .take *any* problems | 14:01 |
| Luke-Jr | Estel_: is there a GRF in place? | 14:01 |
| Estel_ | Coding Competition got promised voting mechanism, but it isn't going to happen? councilor answered "fuck you" using prettier words | 14:01 |
| ivgalvez | to avoid the void that Nokia and Nemein are leaving we propose to form a new Community via By-laws | 14:01 |
| Estel_ | aka "do it yourself" | 14:01 |
| Estel_ | there is problem with abusive chanop? | 14:01 |
| Luke-Jr | in any case, Nokia is no longer involved in Maemo. | 14:01 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: if you want, it takes me 20s to rename the channel to ##maemo | 14:02 |
| Estel_ | "sorry, we're not authority. there is no authority over IRC channels, currently> thank you, yours Council" | 14:02 |
| ZogG_laptop | ivgalvez: it's ok i think as well meegoexperts, n9-apps maemos.ru and other sites should be transfered for council administration. I think elop should report daily to council as well | 14:02 |
| Luke-Jr | teotwaki: don't bother, the channel's old enough to be grandfathered in | 14:02 |
| Luke-Jr | teotwaki: and there is no official Maemo entity really anymore | 14:02 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, bylaws is one thing, but managing what is under Community (represented by Council) responsibility NOW is another | 14:02 |
| teotwaki | I know that | 14:02 |
| teotwaki | just making a point | 14:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | x-fade taking over #maemo-ssu would require him to actually WANT to do that | 14:02 |
| Estel_ | basically, you're telling us that until bylaws got accepted, You won't lift single finger to help with any problem | 14:02 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: oh, i think you are one of the freenode people, aren't you :P | 14:02 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: nope | 14:03 |
| Luke-Jr | teotwaki = crashanddie | 14:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he's probably also not amused to hear "Jump!" from this mad guy | 14:03 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: so how would you rename? | 14:03 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, it's basically leaving everything to work on it's own,. before bylaws are accepted and foundation created. I.e "full wild life" and totally rogue. | 14:03 |
| Luke-Jr | Estel_: your "bylaws" have no relevance to IRC either | 14:03 |
| merlin1991 | Estel_: it's been "full wild life" before that aswell | 14:03 |
| Estel_ | my bylaws? | 14:04 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: op myself, setup automated redirect to ##maemo, kick everyone | 14:04 |
| Estel_ | how it's mine? 0_o? | 14:04 |
| ZogG_laptop | Luke-Jr: teotwaki both nicks familiur. i think from gentoo and as well here i had chat with him but it was few years ago | 14:04 |
| Luke-Jr | Estel_: because I ignore them | 14:04 |
| merlin1991 | well technically X-Fade could be able to take over #maemo-ssu thanks to freenode policy about project names but why would he want to, and even if he did what stops us from using another name? | 14:04 |
| ZogG_laptop | merlin1991: it;s all about power games | 14:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's about Estel_ redefining IRC | 14:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and taking lessons | 14:05 |
| ZogG_laptop | merlin1991: it's like that u do all the work and that only few people started it while most jsut only use, the elite should control you. | 14:05 |
| teotwaki | "Inferior Rebel Chat" | 14:05 |
| Luke-Jr | the Council only represents those who choose to recognize it as as representing them. | 14:05 |
| ZogG_laptop | like in soviet russia :P when they said to sientist what to do and no creativity otherwise you are dead | 14:05 |
| *** MikaT has quit IRC | 14:06 | |
| ZogG_laptop | DocScrutinizer05: it's not only IRC, he is teaching council on TMO what to do with voting system and people, how not to ask rudely questiont to council | 14:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | haha, while he is as rude as it gets | 14:07 |
| *** maybeWTF has joined #maemo | 14:07 | |
| teotwaki | oh and Estel_, for the record, Doc and I were more abusive as mods on TMO than we ever were on IRC. | 14:07 |
| *** MikaT has joined #maemo | 14:07 | |
| teotwaki | when's the last complaint regarding abusive op on #maemo been? | 14:07 |
| ivgalvez | Estel_ the same than IRC applies to TMO. Actual administrator is Reggie and there are moderators, you could have whatever grief with any moderator you want to but Council won't be able to do anything about it. TMO administration can't be handed to Council by any means, the same applies to IRC. Board of Directors however will be able to receive permissions over TMO and promote a process to select | 14:08 |
| ivgalvez | administrators. | 14:08 |
| teotwaki | when the hell has there been a kick, recently? | 14:08 |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, so, basically, we're putting lights off... | 14:08 |
| *** maybeHere has quit IRC | 14:08 | |
| Estel_ | when reggie leaves, and X-FadE? | 14:08 |
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| Estel_ | sure, IRc will work on it's own ;) | 14:09 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: in terms of IRC? Yes. No lights are needed. | 14:09 |
| teotwaki | its own** | 14:09 |
| *** lxp has joined #maemo | 14:09 | |
| Estel_ | ivgalvez, it isn't a stance that I would expect from elected Maemo's Council. anyway, continuing this discussion doesn't make any sense | 14:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: have you seen The Office? | 14:10 |
| ivgalvez | We are not putting lights off we are preparing the transformation in a legal entity capable of handling such things | 14:10 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: this discussion makes plenty of sense, you don't. | 14:10 |
| Estel_ | I thing I'm stuffed up enough with all this bullshit about no one wanting to take responsibility about anything. I understand, why both developers and old-time users are getting frustrated. | 14:10 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: if you want to be an abusive ego-driven douche, just admit it. | 14:11 |
| Estel_ | teotwaki, well, you're free to have such opinion, of course. | 14:11 |
| teotwaki | But don't go making up stories about "But what if the owners leave?" | 14:11 |
| ivgalvez | That's what Council is | 14:11 |
| ivgalvez | nothing more | 14:11 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: who is those devs and old-users? | 14:11 |
| teotwaki | Do you honestly believe that x-fade wouldn't take two minutes to transfer ownership to GA, or Jaffa? | 14:11 |
| Estel_ | all i'mtrying to point out is that, following current interpretation by ivgalvez, chanops can do whatever shit they want, because no one is responsible for them. | 14:11 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: actually, you're wrong. | 14:11 |
| Estel_ | but thatt's not my problem, after all, and I have wasted enough "breath" (clicks) for that topic, already | 14:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: GA is chaop and it's not related :P | 14:12 |
| teotwaki | Estel_: if I cross the line, anyone in the community can tell me to fuck off, and any person in the /cs access list could go to freenode and have me removed. | 14:12 |
| Estel_ | I just hope that such inability to coordinate and maintain *anything* - from Council - won't hurt Maemo's Community, making most important devs and dedicated users to leave. | 14:12 |
| Estel_ | End of message ;) | 14:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | Estel_: i think you can go to #abuse and #help channels :P | 14:13 |
| teotwaki | The Council has been a joke for ages | 14:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | it's the most official freenode thing u can get here :P | 14:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: i didn't followed their actions too much but as see some members who was council on all times, they were contributors (not relevant of being council or not) | 14:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: now the most annoying thing, as how do i know u as i know bth your nicks | 14:16 |
| *** alehorst has quit IRC | 14:16 | |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: was u op on gentoo as well before ? | 14:16 |
| teotwaki | No, but I hung out on the -ops channel | 14:17 |
| ZogG_laptop | i think u may be the one who unbanned me or helped to be unbanned :P | 14:17 |
| teotwaki | ah, might be | 14:17 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: than thanks again :P | 14:18 |
| *** pcfe has quit IRC | 14:19 | |
| teotwaki | Estel_: I'm serious though, if you want to ego-trip and get ownership of the channel, just go ahead and say it. | 14:19 |
| teotwaki | But don't pretend you're doing it for "the greater good". | 14:20 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: he'll ban everyone than :P | 14:20 |
| teotwaki | As I said, it's ruins already, not like there's much to manage. | 14:20 |
| ZogG_laptop | at the end it would be Estel_ freenode owner :P | 14:20 |
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| *** andre__ has quit IRC | 14:23 | |
| *** andre__ has joined #maemo | 14:23 | |
| * Jaffa sees his name, reads scrollback and decides to avoid the conversation. | 14:24 | |
| teotwaki | Jaffa: you bastard, I didn't even know you were here | 14:26 |
| *** VDVsx has joined #maemo | 14:26 | |
| teotwaki | Jaffa: anyway, tl;dr: You'll get channel ownership in coming days/weeks. | 14:26 |
| teotwaki | or at the very least, you'll be marked as a successor | 14:27 |
| *** ivgalvez has left #maemo | 14:27 | |
| Estel_ | don't scare Jaffa, Do you think he would like all this mess? | 14:27 |
| teotwaki | oh so now you speak, but my direct questions you ignore? | 14:27 |
| Estel_ | sorry teotwaki, was involved in more constructive discussion about busybox-power in cssu | 14:27 |
| Estel_ | could you quote it? too much noise in channel | 14:27 |
| teotwaki | (teotwaki) Estel_: I'm serious though, if you want to ego-trip and get ownership of the channel, just go ahead and say it. | 14:28 |
| teotwaki | (teotwaki) But don't pretend you're doing it for "the greater good". | 14:28 |
| Estel_ | pure sophism. | 14:28 |
| Estel_ | I mentioned abusive chanops, you mention that there are abusive chanops on other channels too. I mentioned that it's bad for community, you're telling us that irc will be empty soon anyway | 14:28 |
| Estel_ | it's clear that you jsut don't care, so You're, probably, enjoying all that mess | 14:28 |
| teotwaki | ok, when was the latest op abuse? | 14:29 |
| Estel_ | but there are people who care, you know? | 14:29 |
| Estel_ | teotwaki, go and read chanlog | 14:29 |
| teotwaki | no, you tell me. | 14:29 |
| teotwaki | You say that one of the reasons is op abuse, give me dates. | 14:29 |
| Estel_ | if you're involving Yourself in this discussion, you should be aware wehat You're discussing about | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2012-08-31 13:26:06] *** merlin1991 hat Estel_ aus dem Kanal geworfen (Der Kindergarten ist woanders!). | 14:29 |
| Estel_ | unles syou're doing it for pure shit'n'giggles fun | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ latest "abuse" | 14:29 |
| Estel_ | bullshit, as abuse was about You. | 14:29 |
| Estel_ | anyway, time to improve ignore filters | 14:29 |
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| Estel_ | definitelly too much time wasted for all this shit, already. | 14:30 |
| teotwaki | correct, let's filter it for the whole community | 14:30 |
| Estel_ | teotwaki, Yor only argument is that we don't need to do anything, as community will disappear soon,a nd you don't care anyway | 14:30 |
| Estel_ | hardly a partner for discussion, is You ask me | 14:30 |
| Estel_ | happy trolling, i'm out. | 14:30 |
| *** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo | 14:30 | |
| * DocScrutinizer05 suggests opening a #estel_ channel, much more effective | 14:30 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o teotwaki | 14:31 | |
| *** teotwaki sets mode: +b *!*Estel@*Maemo/Community/council/Estel- | 14:31 | |
| *** Estel_ was kicked by teotwaki (Estel_) | 14:31 | |
| *** teotwaki sets mode: -o teotwaki | 14:31 | |
| teotwaki | Now that's more effective. | 14:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 14:31 |
| teotwaki | For the record, I'll remove the ban in 10 minutes or so. | 14:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good, since I won't | 14:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I've been asked not to administer estel_ in this chan anymore ;-P | 14:32 |
| teotwaki | fair enough | 14:33 |
| ZogG_laptop | :P | 14:34 |
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| *** sessi is now known as simeoni | 14:36 | |
| ZogG_laptop | after all this privilige he is still whinning? | 14:36 |
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| ZogG_laptop | i barely saw people were banned on this chan for about 3 years :P | 14:37 |
| chem|st | ZogG_laptop: +1 | 14:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he worked hard to own it | 14:37 |
| chem|st | only bots and stuff | 14:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/own/earn/ | 14:37 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: he worked hard to earn it | 14:37 |
| ZogG_laptop | btw it's time to take cloak of council from estel | 14:37 |
| ZogG_laptop | doc kicked me once or twice but i asked for it, literally :P | 14:38 |
| teotwaki | I think the two people I kicked the most out of this channel were MohammadAG, qwerty12 and lcuk. | 14:38 |
| teotwaki | me needs to study math again, 2 != 3. | 14:38 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: why would u kick them? | 14:38 |
| teotwaki | I don't remember | 14:39 |
| teotwaki | Fun, mainly. | 14:39 |
| ZogG_laptop | and qwerty12 was here, i missed him here or i didn't pay attentiion to him than | 14:39 |
| teotwaki | ~seen qwerty12 | 14:39 |
| infobot | qwerty12 <~qwerty12@31.185.237.96> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 266d 17h 57m 59s ago, saying: '?'. | 14:39 |
| teotwaki | woah | 14:39 |
| teotwaki | less than a year ago? | 14:39 |
| teotwaki | :( | 14:39 |
| MohammadAG | teotwaki: Fuck you, you never kicked me this month | 14:40 |
| MohammadAG | I feel forgotten | 14:40 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: qwerty is one who shouted door when he left with closed source controls for n900? | 14:40 |
| MohammadAG | Bahahaha | 14:40 |
| MohammadAG | PS3 YouTube app causes burn in | 14:40 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: like real burn? | 14:40 |
| MrPingu | LOL | 14:40 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: you haven't deserved your kick this month. | 14:40 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: don't say u missed my wazapp msg again :P | 14:41 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG_laptop: I replied to it | 14:41 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: yeah, he shovelled some dirt while leaving, he apologised for most of it, though. | 14:41 |
| MohammadAG | teotwaki: You said that last month! | 14:41 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: than i missed it. i just thought u would like to see it | 14:41 |
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| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: meh, i mean the encrypted msg to nokia in his deb | 14:41 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: no idea | 14:42 |
| ZogG_laptop | and i miss lcuk | 14:42 |
| chem|st | ZogG_laptop: then != than | 14:42 |
| ZogG_laptop | chem|st: i keep making mistakes with that | 14:42 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: I've not seen any commits, either, you selfish little plump. | 14:42 |
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| chem|st | who != whom too! | 14:42 |
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| ZogG_laptop | chem|st: at least not your you're and there their | 14:42 |
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| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: "10 is more than 9", "we went to the shops, and then we went home" | 14:43 |
| MohammadAG | teotwaki: Wait, when you gave me access you didn't want me to sell it? | 14:43 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: eh? | 14:43 |
| MohammadAG | Just kidding :p | 14:43 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: you have not read the fucking mailing list, have you? | 14:43 |
| chem|st | "we will BBQ granpa" punctuation saves lifes! | 14:43 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: u have chanop here i think, don't u? | 14:43 |
| teotwaki | "Shall we eat children?" | 14:43 |
| MohammadAG | teotwaki: I did | 14:43 |
| chem|st | teotwaki: ^^ | 14:44 |
| teotwaki | chem|st: my favourite: "I helped my uncle jack off a horse" | 14:44 |
| chem|st | rofl | 14:44 |
| teotwaki | As opposed to "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse" | 14:44 |
| MohammadAG | LOL | 14:44 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: punctuation is actualy an easy part, i just don't bother most times as noone does | 14:44 |
| MohammadAG | I do. | 14:44 |
| chem|st | ! | 14:44 |
| MohammadAG | You'd expect the PS3 YouTube app to play at least 720p vids | 14:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | ¿ | 14:45 |
| MohammadAG | . | 14:45 |
| chem|st | "I do!" | 14:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: why u use youtube on ps3? | 14:45 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? | 14:45 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG_laptop: They released an app. | 14:45 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: i'm russian i have an excuse | 14:46 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: I'm not English native either ;) | 14:46 |
| MohammadAG | You're not? | 14:46 |
| MohammadAG | I thought you were a Brit | 14:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: if they want apps and to be social , they should allow 3rd party :P | 14:46 |
| teotwaki | Some might even say I'm French, which places me at an even greater disadvantage than a russian bloke ;) | 14:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: you are canadian? | 14:46 |
| ZogG_laptop | are you* | 14:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | are you canadian. or french | 14:47 |
| teotwaki | Neither ;) | 14:47 |
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| teotwaki | I'm from the other messed up country: Belgium. | 14:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: are you from planet earth? | 14:47 |
| teotwaki | Well, there's another messed up country, where MohammadAG resides. | 14:47 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: but you are from french speaking side right? | 14:47 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: yes and no. | 14:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: i'm from the same country that MohammadAG are | 14:48 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: i remember somthing french related with you | 14:48 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: I always went to school in the french speaking side, but I've always lived (and my family is from) in the dutch/flemish part. | 14:48 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: read qwerty's final message, I think he calls me a "fat french cunt" or something, don't remember frankly. | 14:49 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: so it was you. | 14:49 |
| MohammadAG | My first iOS app http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo-ZPOz7gIw | 14:49 |
| teotwaki | yay, first view! | 14:49 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: oh, i remember someone told me that it was about you an i said you are okay, but they told you are abusive or something | 14:49 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: please no!!!! | 14:50 |
| teotwaki | yeah, sounds about right | 14:50 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: don't do it | 14:50 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | a chanop that never gets accused to be abusive probably does a poor job | 14:50 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: so are you cunt or not. i need to know! | 14:50 |
| ZogG_laptop | DocScrutinizer51: i was never told i was abusive | 14:51 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG_laptop: Why | 14:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | actually i was once after i banned someone who said racist thing and after i kicked he came back to say more. | 14:51 |
| ZogG_laptop | but after he was unbanned and kept talking, and everyone said that i'm not right i left that chan and didn't come back for a long time | 14:52 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ZogG_laptop: see? | 14:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | i still have op which is weird | 14:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: more iphone stuff you do. less we get :( | 14:52 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG_laptop: Not really | 14:52 |
| MohammadAG | Been doing this for a while | 14:52 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: u type fast :P | 14:53 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: doing for a while? u see why all this happens in maemo community | 14:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | just coz u went dark side | 14:54 |
| ZogG_laptop | DocScrutinizer51: mostly i never kicked or banned anyone saying stuff to me, as i don't care. i kicked when other's were called names | 14:54 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | sure | 14:55 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | usually you got more than one sctive chanop, so no chanop needs to take care about own stuff | 14:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | but mostly you kick/ban to keep chan mood calm and s\n ratio good i.e. kick trolls | 14:58 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | which sometimes isn't easy since the ban itself will usually rise chan temperature | 14:58 |
| MohammadAG | You can work on more than one platform | 15:02 |
| MohammadAG | And personally I don't see iOS as the dark side anymore | 15:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | hi MohammadAG btw | 15:02 |
| kerio | MohammadAG: but it is! D: | 15:02 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: but it is! D: | 15:03 |
| MohammadAG | Hi DocScrutinizer51 :) | 15:03 |
| MohammadAG | kerio: teotwaki why? | 15:04 |
| kerio | because 1) not maemo | 15:04 |
| kerio | yeah, that's about it | 15:04 |
| teotwaki | because 1) not maemo | 15:04 |
| teotwaki | because 2) you can't put GPL software on it | 15:04 |
| MohammadAG | You can? | 15:04 |
| teotwaki | because 3) you can't hack with the device | 15:04 |
| jaska | and it has no kbd. | 15:05 |
| teotwaki | No, you can't have GPL software in the appstore. | 15:05 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: the point of doing it official way | 15:05 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: look at the VLC d débâcle. | 15:05 |
| ZogG_laptop | but with harmattan and aegis friend most stuff is more sad than with jailbroken iphone :\ | 15:06 |
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| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: he is using jailbroken things, so it's other side of dark side | 15:06 |
| teotwaki | He's still limiting himself by using limited hardware | 15:07 |
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| teotwaki | It's like buying a Dell desktop with Windows 7 just to be able to install Linux on it. | 15:07 |
| MohammadAG | teotwaki: I don't use iOS devices with jailbreaking them | 15:07 |
| teotwaki | Buy the parts separately, assemble, install your own OS. | 15:08 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: nothing out there for now anyway :( | 15:08 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: move to Android. | 15:08 |
| MohammadAG | Without* | 15:08 |
| teotwaki | or better yet, FS | 15:08 |
| MohammadAG | teotwaki: Never | 15:08 |
| teotwaki | You lazy scum. | 15:08 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: with laptop it doesn't wrok that way | 15:08 |
| MohammadAG | It's the worst OS | 15:08 |
| ZogG_laptop | work* | 15:08 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: sure it does... There's at least a handful of companies that sell laptops without Windows. | 15:08 |
| chem|st | MohammadAG: ever synced 4 apple devices at once? | 15:08 |
| MohammadAG | chem|st: Nope | 15:09 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: u can't assemble them and most of them are liited choise :( | 15:09 |
| MohammadAG | But id imagine iTunes would crash on windows | 15:09 |
| chem|st | MohammadAG: never seen something more painful | 15:09 |
| ZogG_laptop | itunes — LOL | 15:09 |
| jaska | another reason not to own an idevice | 15:09 |
| ZogG_laptop | android is good for end user | 15:09 |
| jaska | itunes. | 15:09 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: do you have a raspberry yet? | 15:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | but it's fake. it claims to be opensource while it's hybrid | 15:10 |
| MohammadAG | When a single core 1GHz device beats a quad core 1.2GHz with double the RAM you can see something's wrong | 15:10 |
| chem|st | MohammadAG: getting a picture from iphone to powerbook needed an email, BT not working at all | 15:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: MohammadAG i got raspberry yesterday | 15:10 |
| MohammadAG | teotwaki: Nope | 15:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: do you have gentoo on it? | 15:10 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG_laptop: Where from? | 15:10 |
| teotwaki | ZogG_laptop: nope, plain old raspbian | 15:10 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: ordered it on internets :P | 15:10 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG_laptop: How long did it take? | 15:10 |
| teotwaki | I did some benchmarks on it, through zmq, using inproc memory, I was able to squeeze 4.1Gbit/s out of it | 15:11 |
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| teotwaki | Which I think is pretty decent! | 15:11 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: i have one more invitation to get one from other place, if you want but it's over priced there | 15:11 |
| MohammadAG | How overpriced? | 15:11 |
| MohammadAG | 200NIS is fine for me | 15:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: it took few months. the shipment 5 days... | 15:12 |
| MohammadAG | I hate waiting | 15:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: i didn't pay for mine | 15:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | yet | 15:12 |
| MohammadAG | No metawatch, no rpi, for that reason | 15:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | they waited for shipment | 15:12 |
| ZogG_laptop | but i got it and still not | 15:12 |
| teotwaki | Would anyone else say 4.1Gbit/s is good? | 15:13 |
| teotwaki | No? | 15:13 |
| MohammadAG | Not if you don't say how many GB/s that is | 15:13 |
| teotwaki | divide by 8 | 15:13 |
| ZogG_laptop | teotwaki: for internets | 15:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | ? | 15:14 |
| teotwaki | No, as multithreading transport | 15:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: on phone | 15:14 |
| teotwaki | Anyway, I wa really pleased to see that amount on the raspberry pi | 15:14 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: would tell u about rpi in a second | 15:14 |
| teotwaki | just for shits and giggles, I ran the same test on my laptop | 15:15 |
| teotwaki | 118Petabits/s | 15:15 |
| MohammadAG | That's actually good | 15:16 |
| MohammadAG | (4.1/8GB/s) | 15:16 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: so i know it's time of batch | 15:16 |
| ZogG_laptop | and u may get it really quick | 15:16 |
| kerio | teotwaki: what test is this? | 15:16 |
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| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?SKU=70229569 | 15:17 |
| teotwaki | kerio: zeromq inproc perftool | 15:18 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG_laptop: Where does it ship from? | 15:18 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: i ordered in 6jul and 8jul they told it would take up to 12 weeks till i get it. and 24 aug i got track number | 15:19 |
| MohammadAG | Too long of a wait | 15:19 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: Usa->and it ravels inside usa and than it pass germany turkey and to lod israel in one day :P | 15:19 |
| ZogG_laptop | it took 5 days | 15:20 |
| ZogG_laptop | MohammadAG: u don't have option anyway | 15:20 |
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| Fabian_S | Hi! Is there some kind of hardware channel? (For hardware bugs etc) | 16:02 |
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| teotwaki | Fabian_S: hardware bugs? | 16:13 |
| teotwaki | Fabian_S: for the N900? | 16:13 |
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| Fabian_S | teotwaki: Yes, for the N900. | 16:33 |
| teotwaki | Fabian_S: you do realise that the platform has been abandoned? | 16:34 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | all known hw bugs live on my shelf | 16:34 |
| teotwaki | Fabian_S: hardware bugs will never be fixed. | 16:34 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | unless I fix them ;-P | 16:34 |
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| Fabian_S | N900 will never be abandoned! ;) | 16:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | Fabian_S: anyway, you think you found a hw bug in RX51? | 16:35 |
| Fabian_S | My dear pocket machine refuses to boot since yesterday. Its not the battery (checked with other). Maybe something with the bq24150a charger chip. | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | there are few known ones | 16:36 |
| Fabian_S | I am seeking help for the problem, or some links or directions where to look. | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | yay, powerkernel I assume? | 16:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | try | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ~n900-full-reset | 16:37 |
| infobot | it has been said that n900-full-reset is when the user presses the PWRON (power-on) button for 8 seconds and removes the battery in the next 8 seconds, the TPS65950 enters NO SUPPLY state instead of BACKUP state, even if a valid backup battery is present. In such a situation, the backup domain registers are also reset, along with the VRRTC domain registers. | 16:37 |
| Fabian_S | Powerkernel v50 and i used USB-Hostmode. | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | Fabian_S: what do you mean by 'doesn't boot'? | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | please elaborate | 16:37 |
| kerio | hm, v50 should be still safe | 16:38 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer51: hehehe, you were dying for a reason to post that factoid, weren't you | 16:38 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | yep | 16:38 |
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| Fabian_S | Bootcycle with only NOKIA-logo, no USB-Logo in upper right corner. Very short solid orange LED directly after powering up (only 0.5 secs). | 16:38 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | actually it came in handy | 16:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | Fabian_S: you're suffering from borked rootfs which doesn't start bme | 16:40 |
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| kerio | Fabian_S: reflash | 16:40 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | or defect battery | 16:40 |
| Fabian_S | I had problems for many months. I only could power the device while on wall charger, restarting was ok. Sometimes the battery indicator didn't updated, sometimes no charging was initiated when plugging in wall charger. | 16:40 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ~reflash | 16:40 |
| infobot | somebody said reflash was zImage and/or initrd.bin on CF and press C+D+Reset (collie) OR updater.sh, zimage.bin and/or initrd.bin on CF/SD and press OK while rebooting, then option 4, then CD or SF, then HAI (yes), then wait and cross fingers (all other models) | 16:40 |
| kerio | ...what the fuck | 16:41 |
| Fabian_S | Problem: I does not go in USB-Mode. | 16:41 |
| MrPingu | My device is running awesome again after reflash :) | 16:41 |
| kerio | Fabian_S: try a different battery if you have one | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ~flashing | 16:41 |
| Fabian_S | The battery is ok, checked with other BL-5J from an other phone. | 16:41 |
| infobot | rumour has it, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware | 16:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | hmmm | 16:42 |
| Fabian_S | I'll try the 8 second thing. So i press power button 8 secs (slightly longer), then remove battery while keep the power button pressed down? | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | Fabian_S: could you postpone topic until I'm @home again? ~30min | 16:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | kinda | 16:43 |
| kerio | Fabian_S: that can't hurt | 16:43 |
| kerio | it should be the same as removing the battery and waiting for bupbat depletion | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | though I think you may release powerbutton when phone shut down | 16:44 |
| kerio | no, you may release powerbutton after 8 seconds | 16:44 |
| kerio | >:C | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | afk for 20min | 16:45 |
| Fabian_S | DocScrutinizer51: ok | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | more like 30 | 16:45 |
| kerio | Fabian_S: does your bupbat still work? | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | Fabian_S: pretty basic hw function test: hold 'u' while plugging in Nokia fastcharger | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | should result in steady nokia screen with usb symbol | 16:46 |
| Fabian_S | Do i have to put the cover on for the test? | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | ot mandatory | 16:47 |
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| Fabian_S | And... what is a bupbat? :) | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | though it might help rule out unknown side effects | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | backup battery for cmos clock | 16:48 |
| teotwaki | MohammadAG: do you know Korea's Justin Bieber? | 16:50 |
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| Fabian_S | Seems like my bupbat is pretty depleted, because only after a few minutes without battery i had to reset clock. | 16:50 |
| kerio | i suppose you can just remove the battery for 10 minutes or so | 16:52 |
| kerio | it should have the same effect | 16:52 |
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| kerio | and it's not depleted, it's broken | 16:52 |
| kerio | like most of the stock batteries | 16:52 |
| Fabian_S | Status: Steady NOKIA-Screen with USB-Logo. (fuck yeah) | 16:53 |
| Fabian_S | - Placed battery -> Boot cycle starts | 16:53 |
| Fabian_S | - removed battery | 16:53 |
| Fabian_S | - Plugged wall charger while pressing U -> very short orange LED, but nothing else | 16:53 |
| Fabian_S | - placed battery while pressing U -> steady NOKIA-Sceen with USB-Logo | 16:53 |
| Fabian_S | That is an improvement, kinda. :) | 16:53 |
| kerio | :D | 16:53 |
| kerio | now reflash | 16:53 |
| MrPingu | Fabian_S: That enables you to flash your device | 16:53 |
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| Fabian_S | I think i try with kernel first, then full rootfs. | 16:54 |
| MrPingu | Fabian_S: Smart ;) | 16:55 |
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| Fabian_S | USB device found found at bus 001, device address 009. | 17:00 |
| Fabian_S | Found device RX-51, hardware revision 2204 | 17:00 |
| Fabian_S | NOLO version 1.4.14 | 17:00 |
| Fabian_S | Version of 'sw-release': RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_MR0 | 17:00 |
| Fabian_S | The device is in production mode | 17:00 |
| Fabian_S | I LOVE YOU GUYS!!!!! | 17:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | <3 | 17:09 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 hands kerio a cookie | 17:10 | |
| kerio | /dcc get DocScrutinizer cookie | 17:10 |
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| SpeedEvil | :) | 17:14 |
| Fabian_S | Never ever was so happy to see those Nokia hands. :D | 17:15 |
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| Fabian_S | Next step: Install BackupMenu and restore backup from july. | 17:17 |
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| fasta | Do you also have that everytime you use a web-application that the vendor finds some excuse as to why it doesn't work? | 17:35 |
| fasta | It's nothing but beta testing and of course there is no way to get around using the web-application to achieve certain real-world goals. | 17:35 |
| fasta | I think they forgot the part of automation where the automation should actually work. | 17:36 |
| fasta | (Just like Nokia has forgotten the part of customer service, where the customer service people need to understand English.) | 17:36 |
| fasta | (Or the part where providing 'technical support', means that there is someone technical still working at your company.) | 17:37 |
| lartza_ | fasta: every vendor has excuses for everything | 17:37 |
| fasta | lartza_: I don't mind services which I can escape from, but things which you have to use are just a nightmare. | 17:38 |
| fasta | The same thing applies to the government usually. | 17:38 |
| fasta | The same stupid people get elected every year and there is nothing you can do about it. | 17:38 |
| fasta | We have a media-democracy, just like Russia has, basically. | 17:39 |
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| MrPingu | Where do you live then? | 17:40 |
| fasta | MrPingu: The Netherlands. | 17:40 |
| fasta | We do fine on lots of economical charts, etc. | 17:41 |
| fasta | Except, we are just as corrupt as everyone else. | 17:41 |
| MrPingu | Yeah and if new ones are elected, they revert the changes last government did :p | 17:41 |
| Skry | Is there any other democracy than media one? | 17:41 |
| fasta | Skry: the original Greek one. | 17:41 |
| fasta | There is actually one party which wants that kind of democracy. | 17:42 |
| jaska | the only democracy is when there is only one person left. | 17:42 |
| timo^ | ;) | 17:42 |
| fasta | I think the whole idea that a majority has any power over me is stupid. | 17:42 |
| Skry | fasta: i guess its a pretty forgotten form nowadays. | 17:42 |
| fasta | If someone wants to do business with me, then I should be able to choose whether I want to accept. | 17:43 |
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| fasta | Democracy says some big gang can tell me what to do. | 17:43 |
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| fasta | Also government has zero reason to perform any work. | 17:44 |
| fasta | There is no competition in any way for them. | 17:44 |
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| fasta | It should be possible to instantly fire anyone working for the government if enough citizens press the 'fire now'-button. | 17:44 |
| fasta | They should be able to list a reason of course. | 17:45 |
| fasta | For example: "completely incompetent". | 17:45 |
| fasta | Or: "lying scumbag". | 17:45 |
| Skry | that would drop a lot of politicians | 17:45 |
| fasta | If enough of the employers (=citizens) are unsatisfied, it would be => bye bye. | 17:45 |
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| fasta | Currently, it's the other way around. | 17:46 |
| fasta | Politicians have never ever made any impact, AFAIK, except perhaps people like Churchill or something like that. | 17:47 |
| lartza_ | anarchocapitalistic manifesto on #maemo, must be friday night! | 17:47 |
| fasta | All change is done by technology improvements. | 17:47 |
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| fasta | Also, the government keeps crying about 'lack of economic growth', but in the meanwhile you need to beg for their permission to do anything. | 17:48 |
| fasta | Anyway, I suppose it's the ancient old 'everything sucks'-rule which applies in government too. | 17:49 |
| lartza_ | and Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence. | 17:50 |
| fasta | lartza_: that's just want they want you to think. | 17:50 |
| fasta | lartza_: it's greed, nothing else. | 17:50 |
| fasta | I also wonder why we don't just say we live in a communistic state. | 17:51 |
| fasta | More than 50% of all expenses are done by the government here. | 17:51 |
| fasta | I am not sure, how else you would call that. | 17:52 |
| fasta | When is it communism? Only if it is at 100%? | 17:52 |
| fasta | It's the same thing with physical security. | 17:53 |
| fasta | Let's say you are a jeweler and want to protect your property. | 17:53 |
| fasta | An efficient way to solve this would be to put a camera somewhere, detect that it's outside of the normal opening hours, detect that someone is not recognizable and then fire some shotgun wired to a computer. | 17:54 |
| fasta | Except, that's illegal. | 17:54 |
| fredrinLap | hey | 17:54 |
| fredrinLap | Any Raspberry Pi users here? | 17:54 |
| fredrinLap | that got both an N900 and Pi? | 17:54 |
| fasta | But in the meanwhile, when you would hook up the same system to a phone calling the equivalent of 911, that would _also_ be illegal. | 17:54 |
| fasta | As such, the rules are setup such that criminals will always win. | 17:55 |
| fasta | Why would that be? The only reason I can think of is for them (police) to keep a job. | 17:55 |
| fasta | The purpose of government isn't to solve problems; it's to create them. | 17:55 |
| fasta | If you look at things in this way, much more things make sense. | 17:56 |
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| Fabian_S | Yay! My N900 is working again! Thanks to everybody! :) | 18:00 |
| lartza_ | which gps software is the greatest on n900? | 18:00 |
| lartza_ | I'm considering I should probably put my mappero fix to the extras repo (don't really know how) but is mappero dead already? | 18:01 |
| fasta | lartza_: AFAIK, that's done by a chip and the software just reads it out. | 18:01 |
| fasta | lartza_: CloudGPS, in that case. | 18:01 |
| fasta | lartza_: very smooth zooming, etc. | 18:02 |
| lartza_ | supports pois and gpx tracks/routes? | 18:02 |
| fasta | lartza_: probably not. | 18:02 |
| lartza_ | I need driving instructions from mappero | 18:02 |
| fasta | lartza_: driving instructions are in CloudGPS, AFAIK, | 18:02 |
| fasta | lartza_: I'd say that CloudGPS is one of the less amateuristic applications. | 18:03 |
| jacekowski | when it comes to navigation - i would say iphone - because of tomtom | 18:03 |
| Fabian_S | lartza_: Did you ever tried modrana? It supports POIs and tracks (creation/display) | 18:03 |
| fasta | lartza_: you can also pay some company (there is a commercial app for the n900) | 18:03 |
| jacekowski | sygic | 18:03 |
| jacekowski | but it's useless | 18:03 |
| fasta | jacekowski: why is that? | 18:03 |
| fasta | jacekowski: (I have never used it) | 18:03 |
| jacekowski | it's slow, and there was a problem with postcodes or something | 18:04 |
| jacekowski | can't remember now | 18:04 |
| lartza_ | or i'll keep on using my patched mappero ;) but i'll check cloudgps | 18:04 |
| jacekowski | but tomtom is releasing android app | 18:04 |
| jacekowski | so that's going to be sweeeeeeeeeet | 18:05 |
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| fasta | jacekowski: what's the business model going to be? | 18:05 |
| jacekowski | dunno | 18:06 |
| jacekowski | http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/47201/tomtom-for-android-app-preview | 18:06 |
| jacekowski | http://www.techradar.com/news/car-tech/satnav/tomtom-quality-will-allow-us-to-compete-with-free-navigation-1094293 | 18:06 |
| jacekowski | but basic thing, most apps for android are either online or shit | 18:07 |
| jacekowski | tomtom is offline and it's the best navigation out there | 18:07 |
| fasta | jacekowski: Google navigation is pretty good, imho. | 18:08 |
| jacekowski | which is the killer feature when abroad | 18:08 |
| jacekowski | fasta: but it's online | 18:08 |
| lartza_ | luckily mappero supports offline google routes | 18:08 |
| jacekowski | so when i travel abroad it doesn't work | 18:08 |
| fasta | jacekowski: yes, but the number of people going online is growing. | 18:08 |
| jacekowski | lartza_: but you have to generate them before leaving? | 18:08 |
| lartza_ | yea | 18:08 |
| fasta | jacekowski: I do agree that embedded devices that work offline are useful. | 18:09 |
| fasta | jacekowski: smartphones just don't have a lot of battery power in them. | 18:09 |
| jacekowski | fasta: i'm online when i'm in the UK | 18:09 |
| Lava_Croft | hm, seems there is a 'solution' for making the camera remember its save-location | 18:09 |
| jacekowski | fasta: but abroad, no way | 18:09 |
| fasta | jacekowski: it's 2 euros per day. | 18:09 |
| lartza_ | connect via wlan, download gpx and openstreetmap tiles, offline while driving. that's how I travelled from finland to germany by car :) | 18:09 |
| jacekowski | fasta: read the small print | 18:09 |
| jacekowski | fasta: you are limited to few megabytes and stuff | 18:09 |
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| Lava_Croft | it would never rember it by me, and kept resetting the location to my SD card | 18:10 |
| fasta | jacekowski: for Vodaphone? | 18:10 |
| jacekowski | fasta: iirc it's £2/day on t-mobile uk and 15MB | 18:10 |
| fasta | jacekowski: ok, then they are misleading and I should report them to the false advertising committee :) | 18:10 |
| jacekowski | fasta: they don't say unlimited | 18:10 |
| Lava_Croft | but apparently setting it to save on the device itself and then removing the sd card (after turning it off:) and rebooting it again | 18:10 |
| fasta | jacekowski: they also don't say it's limited. | 18:10 |
| Lava_Croft | will force it to remember to save it to the device itself | 18:10 |
| jacekowski | hmm | 18:11 |
| jacekowski | http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/business/services/going-abroad/using-the-internet-abroad/ | 18:11 |
| fasta | Mobile communications should also be free politically speaking. | 18:11 |
| jacekowski | hmm | 18:11 |
| fasta | It exists for over 150 years basically. | 18:11 |
| lartza_ | there will be european fixed price gprs roaming some day | 18:11 |
| fasta | Its potential is enormous, but no, we have to auction it off to some stupid corporation. | 18:11 |
| jacekowski | http://support.t-mobile.co.uk/help-and-support/index?page=home&cat=USING_THE_INTERNET_ABROAD | 18:11 |
| lartza_ | I think the first ones are on the market already | 18:12 |
| jacekowski | on t-mobile uk you pay £10 for 50MB | 18:12 |
| jacekowski | i'm better of paying for tomtom app or something like that | 18:12 |
| jacekowski | that's in EU | 18:12 |
| jacekowski | if i go to some shitholes i tend to visit like qatar then it would be £140 for 20MB | 18:13 |
| fasta | jacekowski: why do you visit shitholes? | 18:13 |
| jacekowski | work | 18:13 |
| fasta | jacekowski: so you are a cia agent? | 18:13 |
| jacekowski | well, qatar wasn't so bad | 18:13 |
| jacekowski | fasta: you could say so | 18:14 |
| fasta | jacekowski: or FSA. | 18:14 |
| jacekowski | if that makes you happy | 18:14 |
| jacekowski | nah, we just do water cleaning/screening stuff everywhere | 18:14 |
| jacekowski | well, not us exactly | 18:14 |
| jacekowski | another company | 18:14 |
| jacekowski | but we do all software for them | 18:14 |
| fasta | And they want you to be 'on-site'. | 18:15 |
| fasta | (for some bullshit reason, probably) | 18:15 |
| jacekowski | not exactly | 18:15 |
| jacekowski | it's us commisioning it in the end | 18:15 |
| fasta | Ah, ok. | 18:15 |
| lartza_ | cd water && make clean | 18:15 |
| jacekowski | i mean qatar wasn't bad place to go | 18:15 |
| jacekowski | bit hot | 18:15 |
| jacekowski | and alcohol was expensive | 18:16 |
| jacekowski | but saudi arabia was pretty bad | 18:16 |
| fasta | jacekowski: I think TomTom certainly provides a valuable experience (unlike most other software). | 18:16 |
| jacekowski | because we were in poor part of the country | 18:16 |
| jacekowski | (we spent something like 100SAR for food there for week - while single sandwich on airport costed 100SAR) | 18:17 |
| fasta | jacekowski: I have another brand of personal navigation embedded device and after an update it also gets the job done just fine. | 18:17 |
| jacekowski | but basically, you i go and a lot of people do that as well | 18:17 |
| jacekowski | to places where there is no internet | 18:17 |
| fasta | jacekowski: as such, you are basically paying something for the extra quality of TomTom. | 18:17 |
| jacekowski | or it's not easy to access | 18:17 |
| lartza_ | if I was going to poor parts of saudi arabia i'd probably also buy the more expensive commercial gps | 18:18 |
| fasta | Still, TomTom has some parts which are not exactly ideal, for example they are a C++ shop. | 18:18 |
| jacekowski | lartza_: why, same stuff | 18:18 |
| jacekowski | and it saves weight | 18:18 |
| fasta | As a consumer you will only notice that as 'oh, look it works fast'. | 18:18 |
| fasta | But they will likely lag in features compared to others. | 18:18 |
| jacekowski | well, C++ is a good thing | 18:18 |
| jacekowski | C would be better | 18:19 |
| fasta | I think Nokia using Prolog for certain features was a good move. | 18:19 |
| fasta | Still, I think Nokia built pretty bad UI applications. | 18:19 |
| jacekowski | but thing is, internet in saudi is pretty cheap | 18:19 |
| jacekowski | iirc it was 100SAR (£17) for simcard with internet for month | 18:19 |
| fasta | jacekowski: why would C be better? | 18:20 |
| jacekowski | but coverage on the desert/poor part of the country was not perfect | 18:20 |
| fasta | If computers were infinitely fast, I think C++ would be better. | 18:20 |
| fasta | C++ compiles just so slowly. | 18:20 |
| jacekowski | C++ has all disadvantages of C | 18:20 |
| jacekowski | with added disadvantages of OOP | 18:20 |
| fasta | Using C++ in a particular way leads to fairly safe code. | 18:21 |
| jacekowski | thing is, C++ has a lot of nasty "features" | 18:21 |
| jacekowski | and duplicate features | 18:21 |
| fasta | Yes, it's a big language. | 18:21 |
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| jacekowski | C++ being designed as C compatible was a mistake | 18:22 |
| fasta | I think everyone always wants to take shortcuts. | 18:22 |
| fasta | A language like Coq combined with Bedrock or something like that would actually allow you to say 'this code has no bugs'. | 18:22 |
| jacekowski | + polymorphism | 18:22 |
| jacekowski | as in overloading | 18:22 |
| fasta | adhoc | 18:22 |
| jacekowski | that leads to some nasty shit happening | 18:22 |
| jacekowski | when debugging | 18:22 |
| jacekowski | because 2+2 may not equal 4 | 18:23 |
| jacekowski | if you overload | 18:23 |
| fasta | jacekowski: ATS is also a decently designed language. | 18:23 |
| fasta | jacekowski: it's just that the current implementation is a bit ... meh. | 18:23 |
| fasta | That's the case with lots of these languages. | 18:23 |
| jacekowski | really, C# is the future | 18:23 |
| fasta | jacekowski: why would that be? | 18:23 |
| fasta | It doesn't run on Linux in a decent way, there are no decent tools on Linux. | 18:24 |
| fasta | And you still get a garbage collector for 'free'. | 18:24 |
| fasta | Garbage collection doesn't work for a lot of applications. | 18:24 |
| * ShadowJK namedrops Objective C | 18:24 | |
| fasta | ShadowJK: cheap Smalltalk ripoff. | 18:25 |
| fasta | I think everything has already been invented; it's just building a good implementation now. | 18:25 |
| fasta | (that is, programming language wise) | 18:25 |
| jacekowski | C++ should have GC | 18:26 |
| jacekowski | C++ makes memory management so painful and complicated | 18:26 |
| fasta | jacekowski: there's 'D' too. | 18:26 |
| jacekowski | and exceptions make it even worse | 18:26 |
| fasta | jacekowski: I don't think it's painful and complicated. | 18:26 |
| jacekowski | because you would like to throw an exception | 18:26 |
| fasta | jacekowski: how much code have you written in C++? | 18:26 |
| jacekowski | but then cleaning up stuff | 18:26 |
| jacekowski | fasta: a lot | 18:26 |
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| fasta | jacekowski: 100+KLOC? | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | fasta: imagine simple code where you create few objects | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | fasta: a lot more than that | 18:27 |
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| jacekowski | fasta: simple code, create few objects and any of those can fail | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | as in, throw an exception | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | so you have your exception handler | 18:28 |
| jacekowski | but imagine cleaning up that stuff | 18:28 |
| jacekowski | because it can fail at any moment | 18:28 |
| jacekowski | it may have just created 10 objects | 18:28 |
| jacekowski | it might have failed after nothing was allocated | 18:29 |
| jacekowski | and you have to cater for that in your cleanup code | 18:29 |
| fasta | jacekowski: I don't really see that as a problem as there are multiple solutions to that problem. | 18:29 |
| jacekowski | yes, but nothing as easy as it's done in other languages | 18:29 |
| jacekowski | IMO in C++ exceptions are half assed | 18:30 |
| fasta | jacekowski: what would be the difference with any other language according to you? | 18:30 |
| fasta | jacekowski: e.g. in Haskell it would be just 'no memory'=> out of memory exception and you lose basically all state, AFAIK. | 18:30 |
| fasta | jacekowski: not exactly ideal. | 18:31 |
| jacekowski | in c# cleanup would be handled by gc | 18:31 |
| fasta | One could also wonder what one would like to cleanup. | 18:31 |
| jacekowski | thing is, current implementation in C++ is just as good as no implementation in C | 18:31 |
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| jacekowski | you still have to handle everything manualy | 18:31 |
| jacekowski | fasta: those objects that have been allocated but are not going to be used because something failed few lines down | 18:32 |
| jacekowski | anyways | 18:32 |
| jacekowski | i'm going home | 18:32 |
| freemangordon | jacekowski: that is why you'd better allocate on stack ;) | 18:33 |
| jacekowski | stack has limited size | 18:33 |
| fasta | freemangordon: stacks are not infinite either. | 18:33 |
| freemangordon | yeah, I know that | 18:33 |
| fasta | I doubt many people measure exactly how much stack they use. | 18:33 |
| fasta | That is, that they can give a precise upperbound on stack depth. | 18:34 |
| fasta | And, AFAIK, if you go beyond it, your C++ program will just crash. | 18:34 |
| fasta | Or perhaps it's 'implemented defined'. | 18:34 |
| fasta | Either way, it won't work everywhere. | 18:34 |
| fasta | I think such programming languages are rather short term sighted. | 18:34 |
| fasta | Programming is nothing but managing sets of information using theorems in the end to speed up things. | 18:35 |
| fasta | Note that nowhere there was a 'stack' or a 'heap' mentioned here. | 18:35 |
| fasta | ATS formalized libc preconditions and post conditions. | 18:36 |
| fasta | As such, you can write a kind of OCaml with C speed. | 18:36 |
| fasta | (and OCaml safety) | 18:36 |
| fasta | If everyone would use that, there would be no 0-day exploits, no 'security bulletins' and other nonsense. | 18:37 |
| freemangordon | well, stach objects are cleaned up by the compiler in the exception handler | 18:37 |
| freemangordon | *stack | 18:37 |
| fasta | Humans seem to have this nasty habit of creating problems. | 18:38 |
| fasta | Actually solving a problem is something they like to avoid for as long as possible. | 18:38 |
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| freemangordon | anyway, using new and malloc is bad idea, see firefox if you don't trust me :D | 18:38 |
| fasta | freemangordon: are you saying they mixed it? | 18:39 |
| fasta | freemangordon: i.e. free something created with new? | 18:39 |
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| freemangordon | no | 18:39 |
| fasta | freemangordon: well, otherwise there is no escaping it. | 18:39 |
| fasta | freemangordon: because they use C libraries too. | 18:39 |
| freemangordon | they do new/delete and malloc/free, but the end result is an awful memory fragmentation | 18:39 |
| freemangordon | well, actually FF uses its own MM, but still | 18:41 |
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| fasta | freemangordon: stilll what? | 18:49 |
| fasta | freemangordon: if they have their own MM, I don't see why there still would be a problem. | 18:50 |
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| fasta | freemangordon: because they can even track memory patterns and based on that relocate memory. | 18:50 |
| fasta | freemangordon: anything can be done if you control it, which they do. | 18:50 |
| fasta | As such, that part of Firefox isn't stupid. | 18:50 |
| fasta | There are some other part of software development @ Mozilla which are stupid, but I think they are even working on that. | 18:51 |
| freemangordon | fasta: still dynamic memory allocation (from heap) should be used with care, there are lots of occasions where a simple static array (or object) will perform much better than a pile of new/delete. | 18:51 |
| fasta | freemangordon: in fact, in all cases that will perform better. | 18:52 |
| fasta | freemangordon: except, the problem is that you don't want to use a gazillion GB of memory. | 18:52 |
| fasta | freemangordon: which is why malloc was invented in the first place. | 18:52 |
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| freemangordon | I didn't mean faster, that is clear, I meant better from memory management POV | 18:53 |
| fasta | If you are going to program a battleship, then you do want to have everything statically allocated. | 18:53 |
| freemangordon | sure | 18:53 |
| fasta | For a web-browser, not so much. | 18:53 |
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| freemangordon | fasta: my point was, that sometimes objects are dynamically allocated with no reason for that | 18:56 |
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| fasta | freemangordon: well, then you are per definition right :) | 18:56 |
| freemangordon | fasta: I have the feeling that most of the developers feel bad if the don't use dynamic allocations, most probably because of historical reasons :). i.e. if you don't use that cool new "malloc", you are old-fashined. I hope you get what I mean. The opposite for using goto ;) | 19:00 |
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| kerio | fasta: what about web browsers *on* battleships? | 19:13 |
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| fasta | kerio: on a completely different physical network. | 19:25 |
| kerio | that sounds inefficient | 19:25 |
| kerio | i want gecko to run on my battlecruiser! | 19:25 |
| fasta | kerio: proving Firefox to be completely secure seems harder than building a battlecruiser. | 19:26 |
| kerio | battlecruisers aren't very secure either | 19:26 |
| kerio | they've got tons of weapons | 19:26 |
| kerio | they're really dangerous! | 19:26 |
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| fasta | kerio: battle cruisers aren't really dangerous anymore. | 19:27 |
| fasta | kerio: because they are obsolete. | 19:27 |
| kerio | hm | 19:27 |
| kerio | well i suppose that it depends on which kind of battlecruiser | 19:27 |
| kerio | http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Battlecruiser_%28StarCraft_II%29 | 19:27 |
| kerio | 300 damage for 125 energy, fuck yeah | 19:28 |
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| fasta | I wonder what would happen if you win a starcraft LAN party by punching the other guy in the face. | 19:28 |
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| fasta | Or are there rules against that? | 19:28 |
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| fasta | MMA Starcraft. | 19:29 |
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| kerio | fasta: irrelevant, sc2 doesn't have LAN | 19:41 |
| fasta | kerio: I never mentioned sc2. | 19:42 |
| kerio | fasta: irrelevant, you won't ever win a brood war LAN party | 19:42 |
| kerio | unless you're alone | 19:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hey, fun discussions in here | 19:42 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: we are trying to beat the off-topic record. | 19:43 |
| kerio | btw, i should really try stargus on the n900 | 19:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | go ahead :-) | 19:43 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: nah, I was already done. | 19:43 |
| fasta | Marbles on the n900 is quite a nice puzzle game, btw. | 19:43 |
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| kerio | the only game i have on the n900 is aisleriot :c | 19:44 |
| fasta | It actually requires some thought if you don't use a computer to cheat. | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IRC OT isn't anything to worry about too much, since after all we want to get to know each other | 19:44 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: you haven't been in #ubuntu then. | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so OT is tolerated or even appreciated until somebody shouts | 19:44 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: or pretty much any other 'corporate' 'community' channel. | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just quoting general freenode rules | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 19:45 |
| fasta | I find that such a sad activity, btw. Either you are a company XOR community, not both. | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? | 19:46 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: I mean companies trying to 'have a community'. | 19:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I tied to be both, when I "did my time" at OM as senior EE. And both community and my boss appreciated it | 19:46 |
| kerio | i'd say that OT is fine as long as it's not distracting an active discussion | 19:46 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: that's not how a community works. | 19:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tried* | 19:47 |
| kerio | channel is silent => OT is fine | 19:47 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: I think the main failure is to act as someone with power over others. | 19:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: obviously companies often haven't thought about their own role | 19:48 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: i.e., you are not part of the community then, you are just a tyrant. | 19:48 |
| fasta | That's the usual role which companies give themselves. | 19:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a community may have a favourite company, but no company ever has a community | 19:48 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: right | 19:48 |
| kerio | and #maemo's favourite company is nokia! | 19:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IOW community >> company | 19:49 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: well, nowadays, some companies make things which no community can make. | 19:50 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: e.g. an Intel CPU. | 19:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though OTOH community often approaches companies with insane demands, that no company could ever satisfy. | 19:50 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: I have no doubt that the software side of an Intel CPU can be done by a community. | 19:51 |
| kerio | s/done/done better/ | 19:51 |
| kerio | a community won't lock you out of features that *are in the hardware* | 19:51 |
| fasta | But the hardware part, I don't see how that's going to happen unless we get some other hardware which allows us to program physical matter. | 19:51 |
| kerio | fasta: fpga? :) | 19:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: I just say i'm an anarchist more than anything else. In the best historical sense. Nothing more to say about relation between community and companies, and my position in that game | 19:52 |
| kerio | or maybe a 3d printer | 19:52 |
| fasta | kerio: that's slower than an Intel CPU. | 19:52 |
| kerio | just overclock the shit out of it | 19:52 |
| fasta | kerio: (for executing single-threaded code, that is) | 19:52 |
| jon_y | is it still offtopic time? | 19:52 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: also the anarcho-capitalistic kind or another kind? | 19:52 |
| kerio | jon_y: until someone has something more related to say | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anarcho-syndicalism | 19:53 |
| fasta | kerio: 3d printers create much larger features. | 19:53 |
| jon_y | ok, I just encountered SAN loss when looking at some perl code today | 19:53 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: how exactly is that different? | 19:53 |
| kerio | use a 3d printer to build a more precise 3d printer | 19:53 |
| jon_y | old script was working for years, written by some one else | 19:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno, as an anarchist I don't really care ;-D | 19:53 |
| fasta | kerio: recursion doesn't work like that. | 19:54 |
| jon_y | when I took a look at it, WTF MY EYES ARE BURNING | 19:54 |
| kerio | jon_y: weird, that's the same reaction i get from *any* perl code | 19:54 |
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| jon_y | kerio: no this is cthulhu level | 19:54 |
| kerio | perl is cthulhu level | 19:54 |
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| jon_y | why is it checking that two scalar is not *0* and not a digit, AND THEN subtract them with each other | 19:55 |
| jon_y | the hell that supposed to mean | 19:55 |
| jon_y | ($str1 - $str2) / $str2 * 100.0 | 19:56 |
| jon_y | yep, SAN loss | 19:56 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: it seems about the same. | 19:56 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: what bothers me is that there is no political party which proposes these kinds of ideas. | 19:57 |
| jon_y | sad thing is that I run the risk of being fired for pointing this out, since it has worked for years | 19:57 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: or well, I suppose there is one, but they are against nuclear power. | 19:57 |
| jon_y | things broke when perl was updated | 19:58 |
| jon_y | fixing bad code can cause PROMOTIONS | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jon_y: well, I'm not feeling too comfortable with any political party, or with politics in general | 19:59 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: sure, but in reality you still have to deal with them. | 19:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a true pity | 19:59 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: I think lunar bases, etc. might put an end to that at some point. | 19:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehe | 20:00 |
| jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: me neither, I just told the original maintainer how bad the current code is and tried to fix things | 20:00 |
| jon_y | now I feel sad | 20:00 |
| fasta | I also had a Perl dependency. | 20:01 |
| fasta | Then it broken, I told the maintainer it was broken. | 20:01 |
| fasta | He said he would at some point look at it, so I replaced it with a different, more stable language. | 20:01 |
| fasta | Language/API. | 20:02 |
| fasta | And I lived happily every after. | 20:02 |
| fasta | ever* | 20:02 |
| jon_y | I rewrote the Cthulhu part into something what I thought the original author was trying to convey | 20:02 |
| jon_y | it was like reading an essay with butchered grammar | 20:03 |
| fasta | Is Cthulhu a word like foobar? | 20:03 |
| fasta | Or does it actually mean something? | 20:03 |
| jon_y | yeah, so bad it causes SAN loss | 20:03 |
| jon_y | basically bad code that is soo bad, how the f did it even work level | 20:03 |
| lartza_ | most of the code in the world probably is like that | 20:04 |
| jon_y | yet it has worked for years, until somebody upgraded perl | 20:04 |
| jon_y | I blame the author for not using strict; | 20:05 |
| fasta | jon_y: you should blame whoever decided to use that code in the first place. | 20:05 |
| fasta | jon_y: which is not the author. | 20:05 |
| fasta | Lots of open-source applications authors also respond in a very interesting way when you report a bug in their applications. | 20:06 |
| fasta | They say "yeah, that's a bug in library foo, reassigning". | 20:06 |
| jon_y | the original guy is probably long dead :) | 20:06 |
| fasta | Uhm, no, the application author decided to use that library, so it's his problem. | 20:06 |
| jon_y | no, it's not a library | 20:06 |
| fasta | Of course, I am the original sucker. | 20:06 |
| fasta | (for using the application in the first place) | 20:06 |
| jon_y | it was a utility script called and written by an application, probably by the same guy | 20:07 |
| fasta | I can't wait for the day that all code is formally verified. | 20:07 |
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| fasta | No more broken software \o/ | 20:07 |
| jon_y | takes 5 years to write a hello world :) | 20:07 |
| fasta | jon_y: no, it doesn't. | 20:07 |
| jon_y | also, lawyer fees | 20:07 |
| fasta | jon_y: it's about 3 times more work. | 20:07 |
| fasta | jon_y: when compared to just writing the code. | 20:08 |
| fasta | jon_y: except then you don't need lots of unit tests. | 20:08 |
| fasta | jon_y: and you know it works, not because you think it does, but because the computer tells you so. | 20:08 |
| jon_y | nah, I was thinking it becomes like civil engineering | 20:08 |
| fasta | jon_y: civil engineering is much worse than what I envision. | 20:08 |
| fasta | jon_y: do you know a civil engineer? | 20:09 |
| jon_y | no, I had a friend who was | 20:09 |
| jon_y | he stopped doing it | 20:09 |
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| fasta | jon_y: then he was either lying, or only doing simple things, or God. | 20:09 |
| jon_y | maybe | 20:10 |
| fasta | In theory, you should be able to input two GPS coordinates, the constraints of the structure and get building plans out of it. | 20:10 |
| jon_y | I remember him mentioning all the paper work involved | 20:10 |
| fasta | Civil engineering has failed as an industry because they haven't done that in the past 50 years. | 20:11 |
| jon_y | ? | 20:11 |
| ZogG_laptop | ~seen BCMM | 20:11 |
| fasta | jon_y: a bridge and a building are just objects which can be computed. | 20:11 |
| infobot | bcmm <~ben@unaffiliated/bcmm> was last seen on IRC in channel #debian, 9d 47m 4s ago, saying: 'berarma: yes, i know. i'm trying to work out what could do that'. | 20:12 |
| fasta | jon_y: just like you can compute pretty much anythign else. | 20:12 |
| jon_y | I see where you're going with that | 20:12 |
| fasta | jon_y: the work that civil engineers do is basically just applying rules all day long. | 20:12 |
| fasta | jon_y: looking up some country specific rules is a big part of that. | 20:13 |
| fasta | jon_y: finding numbers in tables, coming up with adhoc solutions to problems created by other human failure, etc. | 20:13 |
| jon_y | that's where all the lawyering comes in right? :) | 20:13 |
| fasta | jon_y: the lawyering comes in when someone makes a mistake. | 20:13 |
| jon_y | *the country specific rules | 20:13 |
| fasta | jon_y: also the true engineers are miles ahead of the contractors. | 20:14 |
| fasta | jon_y: it's kind of like rocket scientists explaining to a cab driver how their engine works. | 20:14 |
| fasta | jon_y: it's just a fundamentally bad idea. | 20:14 |
| jon_y | companies prefer contractors though, since they're cheaper | 20:15 |
| fasta | jon_y: perhaps I used the wrong word. | 20:15 |
| jon_y | hmm ok | 20:15 |
| fasta | jon_y: "general contractor" | 20:15 |
| fasta | jon_y: does that mean something different for you? | 20:15 |
| jon_y | well, contractor for me means external vendor guys | 20:16 |
| jon_y | rather than in-house people | 20:16 |
| fasta | jon_y: in the case of a building, a 'general contractor' is brought on. | 20:17 |
| fasta | jon_y: his company traditionally bears all the risks. | 20:17 |
| fasta | jon_y: for some lump sum of money to complete the job. | 20:17 |
| fasta | jon_y: (i.e. building the building) | 20:18 |
| jon_y | ok, the guys that actually do the building | 20:18 |
| jon_y | guys out in the field | 20:18 |
| fasta | jon_y: no, the company where those guys work. | 20:18 |
| jon_y | ok | 20:18 |
| fasta | jon_y: they just compute how much something like that will cost, etc., bid on it and get the project. | 20:18 |
| jon_y | ok, so far sounds familiar | 20:19 |
| fasta | jon_y: but those guys generally are not involved all day long with details of the building they are going to create which an engineering firm does have. | 20:19 |
| fasta | jon_y: as such, there is a large gap in knowledge between the two. | 20:19 |
| jon_y | they just get the instructions right? | 20:20 |
| fasta | jon_y: that's not really how it works these days anymore. | 20:20 |
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| fasta | jon_y: sometimes they do, but it will always be incomplete. | 20:20 |
| jon_y | s/instructions/plans/ | 20:20 |
| infobot | jon_y meant: they just get the plans right? | 20:20 |
| fasta | jon_y: not even that all the time. | 20:21 |
| jon_y | partial if more than one involved? | 20:21 |
| fasta | jon_y: more often and often it's just a matter of saying 'we want to be able to put vehicles of this weight at this speed on that bridge, we want a 50 year warranty, now you go and build it'. | 20:22 |
| jon_y | that is from the civil engineering firm? | 20:22 |
| fasta | jon_y: slightly simplified, but more and more it's 'what', not 'how'. | 20:22 |
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| fasta | jon_y: no, the civil engineering firm is usually hired by the general contractor. | 20:23 |
| jon_y | aha, I got it backwards all this time | 20:23 |
| fasta | jon_y: in this case, the general contractor might find during construction that some fatal design failure was in some plan. | 20:24 |
| fasta | jon_y: this now has to be solved. | 20:24 |
| fasta | jon_y: at that point, the general contractor wants to continue the projects ASAP, but the engineering firm has to somehow compute things correctly. | 20:24 |
| fasta | jon_y: which for difficult problems can take a longish time. | 20:25 |
| fasta | jon_y: but the explanations of the engineering firm might at this point go over the head of the general contractor's company. | 20:25 |
| fasta | jon_y: because traditionally, that wasn't their job. | 20:25 |
| fasta | jon_y: to make things worse, the engineering firm is not actually liable in many cases. | 20:26 |
| fasta | jon_y: (which was the point I was trying to make earlier) | 20:26 |
| fasta | jon_y: in case you were wondering where I was going. | 20:26 |
| jon_y | I think so | 20:27 |
| jon_y | sounds like a company too big to communicate effectively | 20:28 |
| fasta | jon_y: no, the fundamental problem is not this one company. | 20:28 |
| fasta | jon_y: the problem is that one party should be responsible for the entire construction and ideally no human thought would enter the process. | 20:28 |
| fasta | jon_y: i.e., a compiler from two gps coordinates, a list of formal strenght requirements, to actual stepper motor actions of a collection of robots. | 20:29 |
| fasta | jon_y: if civil engineering people had actually been problem solving they would have developed something like that. | 20:29 |
| fasta | jon_y: but instead, they opted for some process still involving people. | 20:30 |
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| fasta | (which is why buildings still collapse) | 20:30 |
| jon_y | I guess with all the varied architecture, they wouldn't trust a fully computed model | 20:30 |
| jon_y | or so feel that way | 20:30 |
| fasta | jon_y: every calculation is done by computers anyway, it's just that it still has to be designed now. | 20:31 |
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| jon_y | so if the engineering firm does a crap job, things fall apart quickly | 20:32 |
| fasta | I think you could probably bankrupt a company, by just hacking into their computers and modifying parameters, such that all their current projects fail after two years. | 20:32 |
| fasta | (which is why computer security is an important subject) | 20:32 |
| fasta | I doubt anyone would notice. | 20:33 |
| fasta | The computer has become their little black box of wisdom. | 20:33 |
| fasta | Nobody cares anymore how something works. | 20:33 |
| jon_y | due to the momentum at which the place I work at has, all change is frowned upon :( | 20:34 |
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| jon_y | feels bad when pointing out flaws | 20:34 |
| jon_y | I might just go job hunting as an insurance | 20:34 |
| fasta | jon_y: you could jobhunt anyway. | 20:35 |
| fasta | jon_y: it doesn't sound like the most inspiring location ever. | 20:35 |
| lartza_ | inspiring locations seem to be rare | 20:35 |
| esaym153 | Is there an easy way to make a slideshow for the background image in diablo or is there already an app for it? | 20:36 |
| jon_y | esaym153: maemo sort of has live wallpapers | 20:37 |
| jon_y | I think it's GL based, so prepare for battery life propblems | 20:38 |
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| esaym153 | jon_y: that sinks, there should be a way just to randomly display an image every so often? | 20:39 |
| jon_y | not sure about that, sorry | 20:39 |
| kerio | did someone try to port sauerbraten/red eclipse/cube2 to maemo? | 20:41 |
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| jon_y | fasta: computer security is also lacking where I work | 20:45 |
| fasta | jon_y: computer security is lacking everywhere. | 20:45 |
| jon_y | really, tainted system() calls with setuid() | 20:45 |
| jon_y | just add ;/bin/bash for account hijack | 20:45 |
| fasta | I am 100% sure, that it's possible to attack any standard system and exploit it in some way.; | 20:45 |
| lartza_ | every bank is insecure, it's the bloated legal system trying to fight against that sort of crime | 20:46 |
| fasta | And you can probably do it for less than 200K$. | 20:46 |
| jon_y | more like they're not even trying | 20:46 |
| kerio | HAM doesn't ask for a password before installing stuff | 20:46 |
| jon_y | does it accept any arbitrary commands from the CLI? | 20:47 |
| fasta | 2M$ for the keys to every important system in the world seems awfully cheap. | 20:47 |
| fasta | I.e., keeping wiretaps on diplomats, etc. | 20:47 |
| lartza_ | jon_y: they don't have to try because they think they can sue criminals | 20:47 |
| lartza_ | or so they think | 20:47 |
| jon_y | :) | 20:48 |
| fasta | lartza_: well, they can, can't they? | 20:48 |
| jon_y | not if the criminal is bigger than them | 20:48 |
| lartza_ | meanwhile clever criminals make fortunes | 20:48 |
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| jon_y | like the NSA :) | 20:48 |
| lartza_ | in the insecurity business | 20:48 |
| fasta | lartza_: you should reall elaborate. | 20:49 |
| fasta | really* | 20:49 |
| fasta | I think I know how you can bankrupt a bank in theory. | 20:50 |
| fasta | But I don't see how you can at the same time extract money in the process. | 20:50 |
| jon_y | I could dig up a dozen of account passwords by looking into a sudo account ~/.subversion, since they made the client store passwords | 20:50 |
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| jon_y | sadly none of them can understand the problem of using system() on svn which stores passwords on a sudo account | 20:51 |
| jon_y | since it has been going on for so long, the IT department can't remove it without breaking CRITICAL ENTERPRISE SYSTEMS | 20:52 |
| lartza_ | fasta: well I haven't learned the details of that, but it's hard not to think that with the insecure computing we have everywhere there weren't serious business over there | 20:53 |
| jon_y | said systems written with a monster mash of Java/tcl/tcsh/Perl code | 20:53 |
| fasta | lartza_: oh well, perhaps I do know a way in which it could be done. | 20:54 |
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| lartza_ | fasta: i suspect there is a shitload of virtual currency routed illegally without no-one noticing | 20:56 |
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| lartza_ | nor getting caught | 20:57 |
| fasta | lartza_: virtual currency, sure. | 20:57 |
| fasta | lartza_: not actual currency. | 20:57 |
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| lartza_ | reroute to location where it is | 20:57 |
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| fasta | lartza_: you are talking about bitcoins, linden dollars, etc., right? | 20:57 |
| fasta | In a technical sense, the banking system is obsolete. | 20:58 |
| lartza_ | no i mean real money in digital form | 20:58 |
| fasta | lartza_: I am not sure how nobody would notice that. | 20:58 |
| fasta | lartza_: everyone keeps track of their own assets. | 20:58 |
| fasta | lartza_: there are all kinds of reporting systems. | 20:59 |
| fasta | lartza_: unless you hack the entire infrastructure, prolonged hacking would probably not work. | 20:59 |
| lartza_ | everyone does not keep track of their own assets | 21:01 |
| lartza_ | in fact most have "random loss of assets" | 21:01 |
| lartza_ | and don't really care unless it's too much | 21:01 |
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| fasta | lartza_: o.O | 21:04 |
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| fasta | lartza_: I suppose there are other subtle ways to make them lose money. | 21:04 |
| fasta | lartza_: you can for example hack into their trading systems. | 21:04 |
| fasta | lartza_: and just show them wrong news | 21:04 |
| fasta | lartza_: or show them wrong prices. | 21:05 |
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| fasta | lartza_: anyway, if you cannot trust your machine anymore, there is no civilization left. | 21:05 |
| fasta | Which is basically why I said that computer security is perhaps too important to be left to a bunch of people who really don't know what they are doing. | 21:05 |
| fasta | Speaking of which, does a Lumia complete failure imply that Nokia goes bankrupt? | 21:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly | 21:07 |
| fasta | Or is there some hypothetical universe in which they will build a modern n900 afterwards? | 21:07 |
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| fasta | It's kind of amazing that such a huge company can be decimated in two years or so. | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (security) the problem are self-assigned experts who think they know what's best for $everybody | 21:08 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: no, the problem is that people listen to those people. | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (n900 in parallel universe) probably theer's such a universe, but nobody has found the gate yet | 21:09 |
| jon_y | DocScrutinizer05: or none at all | 21:09 |
| jon_y | nobody takes security seriously anymore :( | 21:09 |
| fasta | If all application development happened in an interactive theorem prover, I just don't see how that's going to be insecure. | 21:09 |
| jon_y | after all, it's agile agile agile | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, those experts do. just they neglect the joe avarage user's needs | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see HARM | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | amd ~aegis | 21:10 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: http://www.cenzic.com/technology/harm-score/index.html ? | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dedicated to content providers much more than end user needs | 21:11 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: that sounds like a bad joke. | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~aegis | 21:11 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 21:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | those security experts assraped by management and not even realizing | 21:13 |
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| fasta | Windows8 also sounds like a nightmare. | 21:13 |
| fasta | It's hard to believe anyone would even want that. | 21:14 |
| fasta | I watched a few videos on Youtube and they managed to make their UI worse. | 21:14 |
| fasta | One guy gave the OS to his father to let him use it and he recorded his actions. | 21:15 |
| Sc0rpius | you can disable the "tablet UI" and have the same UI from Windows 7 | 21:15 |
| Sc0rpius | and I'd want W8. | 21:15 |
| Sc0rpius | definitely | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, the product managers found a nice fairy tale to fool devels into thinking TPM/aegis is something with a huge(!) ebnefit to end suer | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | user | 21:15 |
| fasta | Sc0rpius: but you cannot develop your own run-time system. | 21:15 |
| jon_y | heh, DocScrutinizer05 made a new word, ebenefit | 21:15 |
| Sc0rpius | I wonder why would I want that :) | 21:15 |
| fasta | Sc0rpius: for some things you will have to ask MS's permission to do things on your own machine. | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ebnefit | 21:16 |
| Sc0rpius | like what for example? | 21:16 |
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| jon_y | wasn't the Windows 8 UI mandatory? | 21:16 |
| jon_y | they removed the option to disable it in the rtm iirc | 21:16 |
| fasta | Sc0rpius: http://www.itwriting.com/blog/6347-third-party-compilers-locked-out-of-windows-runtime-development.html | 21:16 |
| Sc0rpius | W8 UI for desktops is exactly the same as the W7. | 21:16 |
| Sc0rpius | the horrible W8 UI is only intended for tablets | 21:17 |
| jon_y | except no start menu? | 21:17 |
| Sc0rpius | I have start menu in the W8 preview | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sc0rpius: like playing with your won device's notification LED. Considered "dangerous" so no app pkg gets tokens to access that, even while API is stable and defined and existing | 21:18 |
| fasta | How much does it even cost for NOK to create a new phone model? | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/won(own/ | 21:18 |
| fasta | I doubt it's more than 10M dollar. | 21:18 |
| ZogG_laptop | Sc0rpius: it has metro ui integrated and changes. but i don't care anyway | 21:18 |
| ZogG_laptop | i use win7 for few apps for school :p so wouldn't even think to update | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: something around that, +- one digit | 21:19 |
| Sc0rpius | well WinRT is for Metro | 21:19 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: put that's almost nothing compared to the amount of cash they still have. | 21:20 |
| Sc0rpius | W7 is my main system | 21:20 |
| fasta | but* | 21:20 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: but perhaps they need that, to fire everyone ;) | 21:20 |
| Sc0rpius | this xchat runs in a Xubuntu on a VMWare full screen in 2nd monitor of my W7 host | 21:20 |
| Sc0rpius | I need both OS at the same time | 21:20 |
| jon_y | use irssi instead :) | 21:20 |
| jon_y | console UI is best UI | 21:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: agreed. bit having a working hw doesn't mean a thing, unless you get support from a working sw development ecosystem | 21:21 |
| Sc0rpius | hell no | 21:21 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: but there's lots of open-source ways to manage software and writing a few drivers for such a device also cannot be that hard for NOK, since they did it a million times already. | 21:21 |
| Sc0rpius | you know back in 1990 when EFnet was few months old the only IRC client was ircii | 21:21 |
| Sc0rpius | and that was a nightmare | 21:22 |
| Sc0rpius | I wouldn't want another console IRC client. | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm leaving for now, getting some pretty nice dinner, then let sonme apes shoot at me with 9mm | 21:22 |
| jon_y | I've been using irssi for more than a year, no problems | 21:22 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: sonme apes? | 21:22 |
| fasta | some apes* | 21:22 |
| jon_y | also, irssi scripts to annoy other users | 21:23 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: sound like fun, be sure to post it on YT. | 21:23 |
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| Sc0rpius | well jon_y you must be one of those guys that the only open window it has in its X server is a terminal window with lots of tabs :P | 21:23 |
| Sc0rpius | another X server wasted :P | 21:23 |
| jon_y | nope, no X at all | 21:23 |
| jon_y | just screen(1) | 21:23 |
| Sc0rpius | hehehe | 21:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: "some monkeys" and yes, there's been my suggestion to Nokia to ship new devices with winX "for idiots", and proper board support package for linux geeks | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems Nokia doesn't see the business model in it | 21:24 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: they should look at the history of Lego. | 21:24 |
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| ZogG_laptop | fasta: what was in lego history? | 21:24 |
| fasta | ZogG_laptop: they almost went bankrupt. | 21:25 |
| fasta | ZogG_laptop: there was some community of people adding electronics and stuff to their stuff. | 21:25 |
| fasta | ZogG_laptop: they wanted to forbid it, I believe. | 21:25 |
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| fasta | ZogG_laptop: then someone told them they should instead help that community. | 21:25 |
| jon_y | probably MS is stopping them from supporting Linux | 21:26 |
| fasta | ZogG_laptop: so, instead of building cheap toys they went on to create expensive adult toys. | 21:26 |
| ZogG_laptop | fasta: i hope sony would bankrupt with playstatons :P | 21:26 |
| fasta | ZogG_laptop: and afterwards Lego pretty much rocked. | 21:26 |
| ZogG_laptop | jon_y: Elop is Ms :P | 21:26 |
| jon_y | more or less | 21:26 |
| fasta | The best companies reinvent what they do depending on market conditions. | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually my last post might have been one of the best suggestions to random phone hw manufacturers since last 10 years. The problem is nobody listens (at least none of the money peppersacks) | 21:27 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: post or message here on IRC? | 21:27 |
| jon_y | beancounter department says no | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I gave up like 5 years ago | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | big busines ==big busines ==big busines ==idiots with no clue | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | +sss | 21:29 |
| fasta | If there would be no patents to worry about, I would likely want to fund part of a n900 like modern phone business myself. | 21:29 |
| SpeedEvil | '' | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi SpeedEvil my friend | 21:29 |
| SpeedEvil | Patents make it insane. | 21:29 |
| SpeedEvil | hey. | 21:29 |
| fasta | Patents are another reason for lunar bases. | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SpeedEvil: leaving LTS business at STE today :-S | 21:30 |
| fasta | If you make a foundation which makes mobile phones, then there are no patent issues, right? | 21:30 |
| SpeedEvil | :/ | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LTE* ? | 21:30 |
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| SpeedEvil | fasta: just because you call it a foundation does not avoid patent issues. | 21:31 |
| jon_y | Lawyer Apocalypse :) | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | STE too big to move *anything* | 21:31 |
| jon_y | think zombie apocalypse, except with lawyes | 21:32 |
| SpeedEvil | You can only make patented items for evaluation of the patent. You cannot profit from them in any way - even if it's for example to make your life easier, with no actual monetary profit | 21:32 |
| fasta | SpeedEvil: but foundations don't make profits. | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | couldn't even make them rethink their policy about GPLing *one* file needed for MALI400 | 21:32 |
| SpeedEvil | Revenues, not profits. | 21:32 |
| jon_y | sell phone at a loss to profit from batteries? :) | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dm8tbr will tell you details | 21:33 |
| SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer05: :/ | 21:33 |
| jon_y | tripple bladed phone | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 21:33 |
| SpeedEvil | http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt - issues around open source hw | 21:33 |
| fasta | I think I saw quite some positive lumia reviews on Amazon; are those all fake? | 21:33 |
| jon_y | does it read ++++ Would Buy Again? :) | 21:34 |
| SpeedEvil | Which has as the consequence you need several million in startup funding. | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | STE interested in Samsung, RIM, Nokia... you name it. "FOSS?? WTF is that?" | 21:34 |
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| SpeedEvil | The silly part is that back in time, before the breakup of IBM, opensource software, and vendors that accepted patches were common. | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | google snowball, novathor, ril300 (obsolete) | 21:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: what's the use of positive hooker reviews? | 21:36 |
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| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: none, they only drive up price. | 21:36 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: and I suppose there is a reputation element involved. | 21:37 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: but it would make more economic sense to trade those reviews. | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N9 and as well hooker are pretty good hw (kudos to me EE colleagues). But doesn't help conquer the future | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since OS sucks | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (my personal despise of devices without hw kbd left aside) | 21:39 |
| SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer05: moving on from STE, or moving internally? | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | away from STE | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just in time ;-P | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hope something *really* interesting (like jolla) is ahead | 21:40 |
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| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: is it possible to invest in Jolla in some way? | 21:41 |
| SpeedEvil | Not at the moment. | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's a good question. Seems like they got scared by public reception | 21:42 |
| fasta | (and they still would need to explain whether there is any money left after all the patents they will surely hit) | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I offered a business contract nobody could decline. Got no response | 21:43 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: you wanted to help them for cost of living/free? | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like "100 bucks a month for being aboard and taking care" | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | reading all the frigging emails. commenting on them. signing all the NDAs in blood | 21:44 |
| SpeedEvil | :/ | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ...no response :-S | 21:44 |
| SpeedEvil | I wonder if they've got a team moved whole from nokia | 21:44 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: for stock, or just for the opportunity? | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry? | 21:45 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: 'being aboard' can mean a lot of things. | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, for me it meant "sign NDA, get email account, get access to internal servers holding schematics so I could review... etc pp" | 21:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | if they want me to take responsibility for anything, that's another negotiation | 21:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno, maybe they are just (too) slow | 21:47 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: you could try sending them a physical letter? | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm vacant since today. No better opportunity to get me sign whatever contract | 21:48 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: what did you do yesterday? | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: meh! we're living in internet age | 21:48 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: or send them a fax. | 21:49 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: they wouldn't know what hit them! | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yesterday I shreddered LTE datasheets about novathor | 21:49 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: I mean were you an employee somewhere? If so where? | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | google novathor | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or simply read backscroll | 21:50 |
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| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: that only tells me what novathor is, that there are two companies involved, which could have any number of clients, of which you might be one, but perhaps you worked at Ericsson then? | 21:58 |
| fasta | s/you/the company you worked for/ | 21:58 |
| infobot | fasta meant: DocScrutinizer05: that only tells me what novathor is, that there are two companies involved, which could have any number of clients, of which the company you worked for might be one, but perhaps you worked at Ericsson then? | 21:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: yep, I worked at Ericsoon | 21:59 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: so, you decided to go? | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | datacom, responsible for low level hw interface drivers and associated stuff | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: I'm not allowed to talk about it, but I may tell it wasn't my decission and I'm not alone | 22:01 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: do you also guess about things on the hardware side when things go wrong? | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: I'm EE | 22:01 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: ok | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and vacant ATM | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~joerg | 22:02 |
| infobot | hmm... joerg is a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, usually known as DocScrutinizer | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~docscrutinizer | 22:02 |
| infobot | i heard docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko | 22:02 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: sorry to hear that then. Good luck finding something fitting in any case. | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm still hoping for jolla | 22:02 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: ah, so it's more of way to entertain you then? | 22:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | besides I got an employment here with some errr. consulting office | 22:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm more happy to do fun jobs I know I can excel, rather than monkey business | 22:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my absolute competence is in reviewing system architecture at large, schematics, and lead teams on a technical level | 22:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and sometimes I got hybris to think I could deal with communtity until some estel guy comes bitching at me | 22:06 |
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