| * DocScrutinizer05 tinks about it, but doesn't recall any raw video format even | 00:00 | |
| fasta_ | I don't really see the problem with the 10 seconds save time to sdcard. | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | except maybe VHS ;-P | 00:00 |
| fasta_ | I mean: it's in internal memory already when the picture is taken. | 00:00 |
| fasta_ | So, it can be displayed fast. | 00:00 |
| fasta_ | That there is some background process writing it to non-volatile memory is irrelevant. | 00:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | eh? | 00:01 |
| fasta_ | That was someone's explanation for not having RAW by default. | 00:01 |
| fasta_ | There is 32 GB of space. | 00:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nonsense | 00:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the only rationale for not having RAW is it's quite unusual and not appropriate for the camera quality | 00:03 |
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| fasta_ | On the dng one I can count the pixels on the photographed screen. | 00:05 |
| fasta_ | So, is there any way to get relatively uncompressed video output? | 00:06 |
| Raimu | I think there was a bunch of hacks on some files for that. | 00:07 |
| Raimu | Check out tmo, I guess. | 00:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope, bandwidth linitations I guess | 00:07 |
| Raimu | But officially, no. | 00:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for 640*480 24bpp 25fps I get a bandwidth of ~23MB/s | 00:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hard to dump that *anywhere* on N900 | 00:10 |
| SpeedEvil | On the n900, the camera isn't really as many pixels as you think it is. | 00:10 |
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| SpeedEvil | The lens diameter means that it's about 2-2.5MP | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SpeedEvil: 640*480, video | 00:11 |
| SpeedEvil | -> fasta_ | 00:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | not even talking about HD | 00:12 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: and how fast can it write to sd? | 00:12 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: or: how fast is the USB connection? | 00:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 12MB if you're lucky | 00:12 |
| SpeedEvil | fasta_: 12.?Mb/s | 00:12 |
| fasta_ | Mb or MB? | 00:12 |
| SpeedEvil | bytes | 00:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | USB the jury is still out | 00:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on that | 00:13 |
| SpeedEvil | you can actually write faster than this if you write to SD and EMMC at the same time | 00:13 |
| SpeedEvil | I got about 22M aggregate read | 00:13 |
| fasta_ | Which USB is it? | 00:13 |
| fasta_ | 2.0? | 00:13 |
| SpeedEvil | I don't think I tried aggregate write | 00:13 |
| SpeedEvil | yes, 2 | 00:13 |
| fasta_ | That's 480Mbits/s | 00:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, depends | 00:13 |
| fasta_ | Max, at least. | 00:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I'd bet N900 can't sustain 480Mb/s on USB highspeed | 00:14 |
| fasta_ | I think if you would write to both usb and sdcard at the same time and to some wireless uplink, you should be able to sustain it. | 00:14 |
| fasta_ | Or at least for a minute or so. | 00:15 |
| fasta_ | Most videos on a phone are going to be action shots anyway. | 00:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what works for 5s will work for hours (or until storage full) | 00:15 |
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| SpeedEvil | USB-gadget camera would be awesome | 00:16 |
| SpeedEvil | - as an aside | 00:16 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: no, because it could be that internal memory is full after one minut. | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but N900 is really missing the grunt to do that | 00:16 |
| fasta_ | minute* | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | internal memory like what? like those sparse 256MB we got, that are already more than used up after boot? | 00:16 |
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| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: yes, those. | 00:18 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: it could serialize those first to the sd card. | 00:18 |
| fasta_ | But that would mean it takes 15 seconds to start creating a video | 00:19 |
| fasta_ | Is dng a particular type of RAW? | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, yep, I estimate an app could actually allocate ~100MB locked RAM | 00:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | equals 4 seconds of vga raw video | 00:20 |
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| fasta_ | So, then all you need is some USB stick ducktaped to your phone. | 00:21 |
| fasta_ | And fast USB transfer rates | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm | 00:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're free to try that, but as mentioned above, jury is still out on max USB speed in hostmode | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are reports it's more like 4MB/s rather than 48 | 00:22 |
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| fasta_ | Wow, NOK is really decimated (literally) | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly though what's wrong with Mpeg3 | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err 2 | 00:23 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: well, it looks really, really bad. | 00:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 00:24 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: I just played it on my desktop. | 00:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it? | 00:24 |
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| Atarii | still can't get this libcurl3 to update dammit | 00:31 |
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| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: a video recorded with standard camera configuration | 00:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | that's mp4, or worse | 00:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you're referring to N900 | 00:35 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: ok, so there is a way to set it to some more decent configuration? | 00:36 |
| fasta_ | My usb networking stopped working again. | 00:36 |
| fasta_ | (after a reboot of the PC) | 00:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta_: I guess there might be | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though the DSP is limited on what it can do, compression-wise | 00:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | .h263 baseband or whatever, iirc | 00:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're probably free to implement a better compression algo on the DSP | 00:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | better as in less loss less compression | 00:39 |
| fasta_ | more* | 00:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | you won't squeeze more compression out of that DSP in realtime | 00:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you'd be incredibly rich if you do | 00:45 |
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| fasta_ | Oh? | 00:45 |
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| fasta_ | I am sure I could do something with real-time compression. | 00:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a better compression algo is a more complex algo, I think somebody could even prove that in theoretical math | 00:46 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: which makes sense. | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the .h263 drives DSP to the limit with baseband (excuse me if I'm using incorrect terms) | 00:47 |
| fasta_ | If you don't know what a car is, you cannot say 'there is a car in that picture'. | 00:47 |
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| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: well, I don't know the terms perfectly, but I do know a few things about compression. | 00:48 |
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| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: so, in this case, I can ping the PC, but I cannot get anywhere else :/ | 00:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, this DSP won't probably allow higher compression/loss ratio than you already get | 00:48 |
| fasta_ | I was able to use it before to do anything. | 00:49 |
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| fasta_ | Ok, I fixed it now. | 00:58 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: where can I read about the huge piles of money to be made by solving the dsp problem better (which should also contain an exact problem description)? | 01:00 |
| fasta_ | I guess it's just part of the equation 'making prettier pictures to be shown with cheaper chips'. | 01:00 |
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| SpeedEvil | If you can do that better, then you basically can compress arbitrary video streams better | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | - for less perceptual loss per bit | 01:01 |
| fasta_ | Real-time compression is a different problem from compression. | 01:01 |
| fasta_ | Real-time compression using particular chips is again another problem. | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | It's not. | 01:01 |
| fasta_ | Yes, it is. | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | Same problem. | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | Slightly different constraints. | 01:01 |
| fasta_ | By that I mean, that it's highly unlikely that the same two algorithms are applicable. | 01:02 |
| fasta_ | I.e. the two optimal algorithms for both problems are likely different. | 01:02 |
| fasta_ | I could go on and develop something which would work great for Youtube videos, but then would be useles for real-time compression of video shot by a user with a camera phone. | 01:03 |
| SpeedEvil | It's just a matter of CPU resources. | 01:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no matter what, I of course implied realtime | 01:04 |
| fasta_ | SpeedEvil: it could also be compressed on a GPU or via a custom chip. | 01:04 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: yes, you did and that was completely clear. | 01:05 |
| fasta_ | How does it currently work? Is it all done via the CPU? | 01:05 |
| fasta_ | That sounds rather ... unlikely. | 01:05 |
| fasta_ | Well, it could with non-HD stuff. | 01:05 |
| SpeedEvil | The DSP, and a couple of other functional units compress images and video | 01:06 |
| SpeedEvil | The CPU is not directly involved. | 01:06 |
| fasta_ | Oh, right, that's what doc said. | 01:06 |
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| fasta_ | Is there some set of standard DSPs which is like the 'industry leader'? | 01:06 |
| SpeedEvil | No. | 01:07 |
| fasta_ | So, then how can anyone optimize against anything? | 01:07 |
| SpeedEvil | There are common ones, but not dominant. | 01:07 |
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| fasta_ | You would have to either know lots of devices or by sheer luck pick the right one. | 01:07 |
| SpeedEvil | The manufacturer of the chip/SoC usually provideds codecs for a handfull of codecs. | 01:07 |
| fasta_ | I suppose you could minimize gate evalutions or something like that. | 01:08 |
| fasta_ | evaluations* | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | And if you're lucky will provide a way to develop your own. | 01:08 |
| fasta_ | Ok, so basically if one would show something using a FPGA, you would get the interest from the industry. | 01:08 |
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| fasta_ | That is, something decent. | 01:08 |
| fasta_ | Except one still would need to know how good the current solutions are. | 01:09 |
| SpeedEvil | No. | 01:09 |
| fasta_ | (because those then would not run on a FPGA) | 01:09 |
| SpeedEvil | Well - yes | 01:09 |
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| fasta_ | If there is no way to compare things, there is no point in even trying. | 01:09 |
| SpeedEvil | If you come up with a truly innovative algorithm that provides exccellent video quality in realtime on the FPGA, then people may look to putting that in HW | 01:10 |
| SpeedEvil | FPGA are usually too expensive for other than professional gear. | 01:10 |
| SpeedEvil | Of course there is a way to compare things. | 01:10 |
| fasta_ | How? | 01:10 |
| SpeedEvil | You look at the video quality you can obtain on commercial hardware with available codecs such as h.264 | 01:10 |
| SpeedEvil | The codecs are generally platform independant - custom compressions for hardware is rare except on the lowest end. | 01:11 |
| fasta_ | Ok, right and video quality can be easily measured of course. | 01:11 |
| fasta_ | Or well, that also kind of depends. | 01:11 |
| SpeedEvil | No. That's a whole field on its own, but there are various ways to do it. | 01:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Varying from double blind on. | 01:11 |
| fasta_ | I think you can only compare lossless compression for real world data. | 01:12 |
| fasta_ | I mean: mathematically. | 01:12 |
| SpeedEvil | No, you can't. | 01:12 |
| fasta_ | Why not? | 01:12 |
| SpeedEvil | There are a number of empirical formyklar that measure video quality. | 01:12 |
| SpeedEvil | The simplest is measuring the difference between the input and the output frames, and summing the difference over all pixels. | 01:13 |
| SpeedEvil | This is not a particularly great method, but it's useful. | 01:13 |
| SpeedEvil | Then you go to various methods attempting to model the psychovisual system. | 01:13 |
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| fasta_ | Right, I had thought of those two methods in 10 seconds or so. | 01:13 |
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| fasta_ | Do you have any specific names for those tests? | 01:14 |
| SpeedEvil | I suggest you google. | 01:14 |
| fasta_ | Already did. | 01:14 |
| fasta_ | Well, never mind. | 01:14 |
| fasta_ | I can google again. | 01:14 |
| SpeedEvil | video perceptual quality tests bits | 01:15 |
| SpeedEvil | perhaps or something similar | 01:15 |
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| fasta_ | Basically there are two things on which you can win something: knowing lots about the human visual system and knowing something about your input distribution (e.g. it is unlikely that someone will send noise to youtube). | 01:21 |
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| fasta_ | (Or even record noise in the case that was discussed) | 01:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | well, detecting noise as such and knowing the human perception can't distinguish one noise from another would already help much | 01:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | if however you are doinjg a video of the eiffel tower with all those 10000 strob lights, each flashing with a constant frequency and unrelated to the next ones, you have a hard time to distinguish this from true noise algorithically, though humans would immediately notice the differnece | 01:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | now add in camera moves to that | 01:31 |
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| fasta_ | Does VLC also exist for n900? | 01:34 |
| fasta_ | I know of kmplayer already. | 01:34 |
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| fasta_ | A bit annoying that FM transmitter doesn't work with USB attached. | 01:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | that's easily fixable | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "there's an app for that" ;-) | 01:44 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: there is? | 01:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, by jacekowski iirc | 01:45 |
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| fasta_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60567 ? | 01:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for vlc I'd point you at package interface once again | 01:46 |
| fasta_ | Ok | 01:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=vlc&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bproperty%5D=title&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bvalue%5D=same | 01:46 |
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| fasta_ | Yeah, I already have those. | 01:47 |
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| fasta_ | It says 'network unavailable' btw | 01:48 |
| fasta_ | While there is a network. | 01:48 |
| fasta_ | (it being vlc-remote) | 01:48 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: is that xray application real? | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nah | 01:54 |
| fasta_ | Well, good elaborate hoax then. | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the wallpaper? | 01:55 |
| fasta_ | No | 01:55 |
| fasta_ | It's something which claims to measure background radiation or whatever. | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lol | 01:55 |
| fasta_ | N900-X-Ray is its name. | 01:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe it's using back camera with door closed? ;-P | 01:56 |
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| fasta_ | http://my-maemo.com/software/applications.php?fldAuto=2264&faq=35 | 01:57 |
| fasta_ | OK, so it's a scam. | 01:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bullshit | 01:57 |
| fasta_ | The N900 fart app. | 01:58 |
| Hurrian | fasta_, VLC for N900 is very "alpha" quality | 01:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta_: btw: some indispensible stuff: simple brightness, load widget, apmefo | 02:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | starhash-enabler, flashlight(?), backupmenu | 02:05 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: maemo5-load-applet or Load Applet? | 02:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err simple cpu load applet or sth | 02:07 |
| SpeedEvil | indeed - load widget is indespensable and something I miss greatly on my android tablet | 02:07 |
| fasta_ | It really take years for HAM to load all applications. | 02:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you never want to wonder if you missed to hit that ok button or it's already woking at full CPU load and you just need to wait for it to complete | 02:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta_: disable extras-devel! | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's like 1 min vs 5 min | 02:09 |
| fasta_ | DocScrutinizer05: but doesn't extras-devel also have interesting stuff? | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 02:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but then you have to live with the waiting, or use other emans ;-D | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | means, even | 02:10 |
| fasta_ | What other means? apt-get? | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for example | 02:10 |
| fasta_ | But you said apt-get would sent me to Hell. | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for most pkgs it's flawless | 02:10 |
| fasta_ | (I am not religious) | 02:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, apt-get dist-upgrade for sure will | 02:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | apt-get install is usually safe, except for some very special pkgs | 02:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nevertheless change your repos in HAM only | 02:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and don't worry when apt refuses to work even minutes after HAM got closed. There's some apt-worker process cleaning up, this takes time | 02:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | apt-cache search is a great tool | 02:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and don't forget to create BM-backups frequently. Especially when/before installing stuff from extras-devel | 02:16 |
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| Hurrian | DocScrutinizer, don't forget putting in an extremely long update interval for HAM | 02:22 |
| Hurrian | apt-worker randomly kicking CPU into max frequency is not cool | 02:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, depends | 02:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I haven't changed it on my device | 02:24 |
| Macer | THE BETA TEST IS OVER! | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably because I think it's not running updates via GPRS, and at home on WLAN I don't care | 02:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Macer: eh? | 02:24 |
| SpeedEvil | Macer: The n930 is out? | 02:25 |
| Macer | heh | 02:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Macer: your capslock key is defect | 02:25 |
| Macer | sorry. i was making fun of my buggy lumia 900 | 02:26 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 02:26 |
| Macer | with its wifi/cell dns scripting fail | 02:26 |
| Hurrian | DocScrutinizer05, I don't leave wifi on all the time, so when I use my N900 HAM will get itself to update | 02:26 |
| Hurrian | so I set the interval to something ridiculous | 02:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 02:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, it's on http://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo | 02:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Hurrian: 12 months seems ridiculous enough, btw | 03:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at some way higher values, doom starts | 03:14 |
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| Woody14619 | ok.. crazy question: Anyone here do anything with Win7 network coding? :P | 03:24 |
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| Woody14619 | Got an app, runs fine in XP & linux (cross-compiles)... Runs on win7, but refuses to see UDP broadcast packets... | 03:25 |
| Woody14619 | Wireshark says they're hitting the NIC, as broadcast, but the app never sees them. | 03:26 |
| * Woody14619 hates Win7 at times... | 03:26 | |
| Sc0rpius | that seems to be a firewall problem | 03:26 |
| Sc0rpius | not an application problem. | 03:26 |
| Sc0rpius | you should try disabling your firewall completely in Win7 for a few minutes and try again | 03:27 |
| Woody14619 | I know.. but: Firewall is off, service is stopped & disabled ( including BFE) | 03:27 |
| Sc0rpius | wireshark can see the packets? | 03:28 |
| Sc0rpius | but your application can't? | 03:28 |
| Woody14619 | Yup... | 03:28 |
| Woody14619 | Kills me. | 03:28 |
| Woody14619 | Even rebooted.... | 03:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 03:28 |
| Sc0rpius | is that .NET using C#? | 03:28 |
| Woody14619 | .oO(Because anyhting netowkr reuqires a reboot in Windows, right?) | 03:28 |
| Woody14619 | Nope.. plain old C, using the socket.h interface for WinSock2. | 03:29 |
| Woody14619 | I even called out the ioctls to enable IP_RECEIVEBROADCAST.... | 03:29 |
| Woody14619 | Though in Win7 they're supposed to default to on... | 03:29 |
| Sc0rpius | do you have VMWare installed? | 03:30 |
| Woody14619 | I do. | 03:30 |
| Woody14619 | Wait... | 03:30 |
| Sc0rpius | disable all VMWare network adapters. $100 that will fix it | 03:30 |
| Woody14619 | On the transmit box I so... | 03:30 |
| Sc0rpius | no no in the receiver | 03:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 03:31 |
| Woody14619 | nope, not on the receiver... no vmware or virtualbox there. | 03:31 |
| Woody14619 | I have virtualbox on the transmitter, but it's sending packets just fine.. | 03:31 |
| Woody14619 | I even setup a firewal rule (even though fw is off) to allow UDP for the port in... | 03:33 |
| Sc0rpius | "set the SO_BROADCAST option to setsockopt() correctly" | 03:33 |
| Woody14619 | Figuring just in case some part was still running... it would work. | 03:33 |
| Woody14619 | Yup.. Without that in >WinNT it won't broadcast... And yes, I even set it on the recieve port too.. (tried it both ways) | 03:34 |
| Sc0rpius | no clue then :S | 03:34 |
| Woody14619 | I found 2 people on google w/ the same issue & no solutions.. and lots of "solutions" that don't work.. :P | 03:34 |
| Woody14619 | the part that really kills me is that wireshark can see the damn packets... | 03:34 |
| Woody14619 | on the device I want them to be seen on.... while the app is running.. but the app doesn't see them. | 03:35 |
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| Woody14619 | Thanks for the help anyway. :) | 03:36 |
| Woody14619 | Thanks for the help anyway. :) | 03:36 |
| Sc0rpius | well Wireshark uses Libpcap | 03:37 |
| Sc0rpius | so it's not really surprising, they are using low level direct access to the NIC | 03:38 |
| Sc0rpius | you're using a windows library, by definition it HAS to be broken. | 03:38 |
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| Sc0rpius | a "Microsoft library" | 03:38 |
| Woody14619 | True that.. but really... it should just pass through if FW is off and misc crap is not in the way. :P | 03:40 |
| Woody14619 | And it still works in XP... up to date w/ patches and all that junk. | 03:40 |
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| Woody14619 | K... I give up.. Win7 wins till Monday. :) | 04:26 |
| Woody14619 | I'm off to enjoy the weekend. Have a good one everyone & see you Monday! | 04:26 |
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| kwtm | I agree! | 07:44 |
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| Estel_ | hm, who updated qtcomponent-10? | 10:57 |
| Estel_ | qt-components-10 appeared as new verwion in ectras devel, and isn't automaticaly pulled with CSSU | 10:59 |
| Estel_ | same for qt-components-base-theme | 10:59 |
| Estel_ | and iptables | 10:59 |
| Estel_ | I'm quite afraid to update, as no changelog is available | 11:00 |
| Estel_ | any ideas, who have pushed updates and why? | 11:00 |
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| Darkchaos | Does the N900 have a Simlock? On the Net there are some that say, it has, and ones who say it doesnt | 12:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Darkchaos: N900 *can have* a SIMlock | 14:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you know, SIMlock is a measure done by operators on subsidized devices | 14:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or, to put it that way: probably N900 *has* a SIMlock function, but it's usually not engaged | 14:07 |
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| eddyb | microB is a microbe | 14:08 |
| eddyb | so shitty | 14:08 |
| Darkchaos | Well so the easiest way is to try it? | 14:08 |
| eddyb | load https://imo.im on it and try to type anything in the user/password boxes | 14:08 |
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| Darkchaos | Mother of God, If i knew they won't repair my N900, I'd never sent it in. Impossible to send it back, Exchange for a E07-00 offered | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Darkchaos: insist in getting a N900, either repair/swap OR YOUR DAMN BROKEN ORIGINAL | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no way they have a right to snatch away your device, it's your property | 14:11 |
| Darkchaos | Well I even wrote to the Nokia Support | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sue them | 14:11 |
| Darkchaos | She said basically the devices get recycled. | 14:11 |
| Darkchaos | And If I tell them my IMEI Number she will tell me what happend exactly to the phone :D | 14:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you've sent in a N900, you want back a N900, or you will charge them with all the expense for lawers and whatnot to get the issue solved on your own | 14:12 |
| Darkchaos | But how to get the IMEI if not on the Back of the device? | 14:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fuck the imei, you have sent in a N900, I guess you can prove that | 14:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | visit a lawyer! | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's plain robbery | 14:13 |
| Darkchaos | mh | 14:13 |
| eddyb | hmm, I might be able to log in imo.im using facebook, since it's a different login window | 14:13 |
| rcg | wrt to imei, it's also on the box you bought the n900 in | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if they have damaged your original N900, they goddamn get you a replacement, another **N900** | 14:14 |
| rcg | and _could_ be on the receipt as well | 14:14 |
| eddyb | DocScrutinizer05: what if they don't have any N900 around, but just N950s? | 14:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: | 14:15 |
| eddyb | that's the only replacement I would accept | 14:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what if they now deal with diamonds? | 14:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or rubberboats | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or rubberboots | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I DON'T CARE | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when I send in a device for repair, it's still MY PROPERTY and nobody may recycle it or whatever | 14:17 |
| eddyb | damn you microB | 14:18 |
| eddyb | there we go, the facebook trick worked | 14:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | eddyb: we all heard it now | 14:18 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 ponders sending in a used N900 just to open a case at court against Nokia | 14:20 | |
| Darkchaos | well I got the exchange E7-00 this moment, If I thought about sueing them a few days sooner, I wouldn't have accepted. I Only did because that bitch said: "Even if you don't accept an exchange its impossible to get yours back". Now is there any chance of getting nitdroid running on a E7? My Plan was to resell the E7 as soon as it arrives and buy a used n900 | 14:20 |
| Darkchaos | but those priceses raised extremely the last months | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you might get used N900 for 150EUR up | 14:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | feabay always has some | 14:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | F U Nokia, for criminal customer support | 14:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I honestly ponder doing exactly that, send them a N900 for repair, make damn sure I document and get witnesses for every action, and then sue them and also send in a notice of an offence | 14:27 |
| psycho_oreos | Darkchaos, if you think about it, you maybe able to recuperate a very small portion of the cost by selling that rubbish E7 and using that money plus saving more to buy another second hand N900 | 14:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | psycho_oreos: that's not the point though | 14:27 |
| psycho_oreos | I have a broken N900 here, I'm a little tempted to do that but its going to be fun to sue at international level | 14:27 |
| psycho_oreos | DocScrutinizer05, I know I know.. but he has no choice now because he hadn't acted sooner | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, here we got a lot of people with insurance for such cases | 14:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (international level battle at court) | 14:29 |
| psycho_oreos | yeah | 14:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw your primary opponent is your local Nokia representative who received the device | 14:29 |
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| psycho_oreos | I'd laugh if we started suing nokia and they wanted to buy the N900 back to prevent further onslaught | 14:30 |
| Estel_ | 100% agree | 14:30 |
| Estel_ | even now, You can chnange Your mind | 14:30 |
| Estel_ | yyou wans't informed well about Your rights | 14:30 |
| Estel_ | so, you can send them E7 back, and demand N900 | 14:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they can try that | 14:31 |
| Estel_ | first of all, you would be surprised, how many unopened N900 they have stocked, if You push them hard enough | 14:31 |
| Darkchaos | psycho_oreos: Thats what I'm trying (selling the E7-00) | 14:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but I don't have to accept such request | 14:31 |
| Estel_ | Darkchaos, just demand Your device back | 14:31 |
| Estel_ | here, sureprisingly, I agree with DocScrutinizer fully | 14:31 |
| psycho_oreos | or really you can try what eddyb said, N950 as a replacement _if_ N900 is completely unavailable. There's no other related product to N900 other than the elusive N950 | 14:32 |
| Estel_ | of course Yuo can sell that damn E7, but I'm 100% sure if You will be stubborn enough, you *can* get brand new N900 | 14:32 |
| Estel_ | many people achieved it, even few weeks ago | 14:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly guys, if everybody lets get away Nokia with this criminal behaviour, they will think they're doing the right thing. While otherwise they might reconsider their policy | 14:32 |
| Estel_ | absolutely agree | 14:32 |
| Estel_ | scrapping someone's property without permission is plain criminal action | 14:33 |
| Estel_ | BTW | 14:33 |
| Estel_ | Nokia should get contract for doing eutanasia - and call it "health care" | 14:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N950 doesn't really qualify as a replacement for N900. Unless you can run mameo on it | 14:33 |
| Estel_ | "Nokia health care" | 14:33 |
| Estel_ | + no chances to get N950, rest assured | 14:33 |
| Darkchaos | The Problem is, first I have to get over the Online Shop who sold me the N900 | 14:34 |
| psycho_oreos | for now I'm a little reluctant to hand in a spare working device for a POS E7 or even worse, N8. I'm temporarily holding onto my broken spare N900 in case my provider wants it back lol | 14:34 |
| psycho_oreos | Estel_, they're still handing out N950, though no longer in large proportions | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so you can try to negotiate with them, but there's little on the argumentative side you can use to make them ggive you N950 instead of E7 | 14:34 |
| Estel_ | it's funny, as in my country, only 10 people are required tyo do class lawsuit | 14:34 |
| psycho_oreos | but the point is to prevent the from giving you a POS device | 14:34 |
| Estel_ | psycho_oreos, but not as replacements for N900 | 14:34 |
| Estel_ | they may still have some for "birthday presents" for relatives of R&D team ;) | 14:35 |
| psycho_oreos | Estel_, I know but its to tell them you won't budge for a non-equivalent :) | 14:35 |
| Estel_ | psycho_orexactly. | 14:35 |
| Estel_ | psycho_oreos, rexactly* | 14:35 |
| Estel_ | damn | 14:35 |
| Estel_ | You know what I mean ;) | 14:35 |
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| psycho_oreos | more like happy `whatever' day instead of birthday | 14:35 |
| Estel_ | psycho_oreos, I was reffering to one guy on TMO, who started topic... | 14:36 |
| psycho_oreos | handing out N950 like as if they were freebie CDs | 14:36 |
| Estel_ | about his N950, he dropped it and destroyed screen | 14:36 |
| psycho_oreos | Estel_, ah | 14:36 |
| Estel_ | the funniest thing is that he got his N950 as birthday present, from uncle who is R&D on Nokia somewhere | 14:36 |
| Estel_ | or any other relative, whatever | 14:36 |
| Darkchaos | That's even more stupid. It wasn't my fault, It was the common usb-resolder problem | 14:37 |
| psycho_oreos | though I'm sure there's plenty of N950 in stock somewhere | 14:37 |
| Estel_ | and he whinne,d that usual developer way of replacing device won't work for him | 14:37 |
| Estel_ | ... | 14:37 |
| psycho_oreos | Darkchaos, and that problem is very common | 14:37 |
| psycho_oreos | lol | 14:37 |
| Estel_ | Darkchaos, You wil ldo what Yuo wan't, but I wouldn't allow them to go away with it | 14:37 |
| Estel_ | they can put their E7 in *** | 14:37 |
| Estel_ | BTW, even if You accepted it briefly - verbally, not via signing papers - You could just get legal advices and change mind | 14:37 |
| psycho_oreos | Darkchaos, exactly how long has the E7 been in your possession now? | 14:38 |
| Estel_ | after all, they destroyed Your device without permission, you were shocked ;) | 14:38 |
| Darkchaos | That's why im trying to directly write to Nokia, but In order to get it back, I need the IMEI :/. It is about 10 minutes in my possesion, and it's sealed. (I didn't even open the packaging) | 14:38 |
| Darkchaos | And I accepted via email | 14:39 |
| Estel_ | Darkchaos, bullshit, you don't need any fckin imei | 14:39 |
| Darkchaos | well, but how should nokia find out which phone i sent in? | 14:40 |
| psycho_oreos | Darkchaos, hmm some receipts should state IMEIใnumbers, but that highly depends on shops | 14:40 |
| Estel_ | You, basically, don't need to care, it's their responsibility. | 14:40 |
| psycho_oreos | or at least a receipt for proof of purchase on N900 | 14:40 |
| Estel_ | maybe proof of sending it to Nokia "care", lol | 14:40 |
| Darkchaos | hmm | 14:41 |
| Estel_ | hey,. lets start contract with Nokia. We will accept any device they send us for repair, and repair it for 4$ each. the trick is, that we won't give them devices back, and require serial number of resistor mounter on any random place of device | 14:41 |
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| Darkchaos | well the problem is that I didn't sent it in to Nokia, but the Shop did | 14:42 |
| zeq | I let Nokia screw me over on this, only let them get away with it because my gf needed a new phone anyway so I bought a second hand N900. She got the E7 stolen not long after! | 14:42 |
| Estel_ | Darkchaos, so demand it from sho | 14:44 |
| Estel_ | shop* | 14:44 |
| Estel_ | whatever. | 14:44 |
| Estel_ | honestly, the sooner Nokia - as company - died, the better | 14:44 |
| Estel_ | die* | 14:44 |
| Estel_ | well,l maybe not before sending CA awards ;) | 14:44 |
| Estel_ | and CC ones | 14:45 |
| Estel_ | but autumn, why not. | 14:45 |
| Estel_ | I should sue them, now, everywhere I see something mixed up with word "care" | 14:45 |
| Estel_ | I see big red letters, saying oxy-moron | 14:45 |
| eddyb | o2Moron? | 14:46 |
| eddyb | hmm, maybe OโMoron | 14:46 |
| psycho_oreos | its actually O for Oxygen not Oโ | 14:47 |
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| psycho_oreos | woops, I take that back, wikipedia corrected me | 14:48 |
| psycho_oreos | or maybe not, that's dioxygen for Oโ not O | 14:49 |
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| LaoLang_cool | How to use filemaanger to open the root (/) | 15:15 |
| Estel_ | You can't. | 15:15 |
| Estel_ | use terminal or install filebox. | 15:15 |
| Estel_ | psycho_oreos, well, oxygen in nature is found as Oโ, msot of the times (unless bound with others) | 15:16 |
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| Estel_ | but, honestly, You're right | 15:17 |
| Estel_ | Nokia Care is, in fact, oxydian of moron | 15:17 |
| Estel_ | so )Moron, not Oโmoron | 15:17 |
| Estel_ | s/)moron/Omoron/ | 15:17 |
| LaoLang_cool | Estel_, ok | 15:18 |
| * Estel_ starts chemistry experiments with "updating" nokia care to O4Moron, and make it fly away, as rocket fuel | 15:18 | |
| Estel_ | warning,. Doc'S says, that it's prone to self-ignition | 15:19 |
| LaoLang_cool | in filemanger, I can click a file, then filemanager will use a default app to open it, how filemanager know which app to open which file? If I'm on terminal, is there a way to do it as filemanger do? | 15:20 |
| Estel_ | ...which would explain why Nokia is on fire | 15:20 |
| Estel_ | LaoLang_cool, it's just know :P it's not controlled by filebox, but by maemo | 15:20 |
| Estel_ | You can alter it by dbus-switchboard | 15:20 |
| Estel_ | i.e. define Your own handlers | 15:20 |
| Estel_ | X-refs | 15:20 |
| Estel_ | URI handlers | 15:20 |
| Estel_ | etc | 15:20 |
| LaoLang_cool | Estel_, oh, too advanced for me.. | 15:21 |
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| LaoLang_cool | Thank you! | 15:21 |
| Estel_ | no problem. | 15:21 |
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| Darkchaos | Holy Fucking Shit | 16:51 |
| Darkchaos | Fuck Nokia | 16:51 |
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| Darkchaos | I got an exchange E7 but guess what? It doesn't even have it's own package, It was packed in my N900 Packaging | 16:52 |
| Darkchaos | On top of that It is MY charger, not a new one etc | 16:52 |
| Darkchaos | Now I can't even sell this E7 to buy a new N900, because It has no value anymore | 16:53 |
| Darkchaos | no package, no manual even | 16:53 |
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| Estel_ | rotflmao | 16:56 |
| Estel_ | Darkchaos, no comment, just don't let them get out with it | 16:56 |
| Estel_ | protest, shout on them, or burnYourself before Nokia care shop and leave letter - whatever | 16:57 |
| Estel_ | it's absolutely unbeliveable | 16:57 |
| Estel_ | what the fuck, they've sent You stolen E7, or what? | 16:57 |
| Darkchaos | I just sent an Email to nokia | 16:57 |
| Darkchaos | but i believe it's http://eg-electronics.com/ Burn them down! | 16:57 |
| Darkchaos | Because along with my E7 I got a "bill" from another company g-support or how it was called, near to eg-electronics. Did Nokia outsource it's care center? | 16:58 |
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| fasta_ | There is no Emacs for the n900? | 17:01 |
| fasta_ | WHAT!?! | 17:01 |
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| fasta | If I want gcc on the phone itself, I am doing it wrong? | 17:12 |
| fasta | I.e., it's just cross-compile or die? | 17:12 |
| Darkchaos | Shit, I can only send in my phone to some authorized dealer not to nokia itself | 17:13 |
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| Raimu | Are there parameters I could add to the .desktop file for Maemo5's X-terminal to make it open a new instance of the terminal instead of focusing on the existing one if one's already there? | 17:25 |
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| fasta | How can I start a CPU load widget? | 17:32 |
| fasta | I tried some menu that said 'add widget', but it didn't show the CPU load widget I had installed earlier. | 17:32 |
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| merlin1991 | hm does vi have search and replace? | 18:31 |
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| peetah | merlin1991: :s/search/replace/ | 18:35 |
| merlin1991 | thanks | 18:35 |
| peetah | it will work on the current line only | 18:36 |
| peetah | to apply on the whole file: :%s/search/replace/g | 18:36 |
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| fasta | So, what can I do with apmofo? | 19:14 |
| fasta | There is a readme file, but it doesn't really tell me what the point is. | 19:14 |
| fasta | I have seen some screenshots with some kind of tiles. | 19:14 |
| fasta | What are those? | 19:15 |
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| fasta | E.g. like here: http://i49.tinypic.com/2i8y8ms.png | 19:17 |
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| fasta | Ok, I am transmitting to my radio now o.O. | 19:25 |
| fasta | That's just so awesome. | 19:25 |
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| fasta | Which mp3/flac application do I want to use on n900? I would prefer to just ssh over some mp3/flac files and have it working. | 20:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer06 | fasta: apmefo creates subfolders in applauncher | 20:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer06 | the config gui is kinda clumsy, but after all you don't use that often | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer06 | don't drag icons in applauncher menu to 'sort' them, as this will ruin apmefo's setup | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer06 | sort icons *in* apmefo | 20:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: gcc on phone is best done in EasyDebian chroot, as installing it 'natively' to /bin etc will definitely kill your rootfs free space | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Raimu: (multiinstance xterm) good question, possibly there's a way, but I dunno off top of my head - check content of *.desktop | 20:39 |
| Sc0rpius | ApMeFo is definitely one great app | 20:42 |
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| tank-man | "my primary phone runs ..." http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl | 20:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | eeeew slashdot | 21:11 |
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| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: I can get about 4MB/s via ssh, indeed. | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fasta: yep, and then the CPU maxes out at 100% for decoding/encoding, no? | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd guess ssh is a rather unsuitable protocol to evaluate speed of physical interfaces, if that's what you're after | 21:29 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: it seems to wait for I/O most of the time. | 21:30 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: it only uses about 20% CPU or so. | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm | 21:30 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: but it's not really sustained, because it also runs other applications. | 21:30 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: or perhaps because it just switches song. | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and AIUI you haven't even used hostmode but rather connected N900 as gadget | 21:31 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: using pc suite mode | 21:31 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: I don't really get the whole mass-storage device functionality. | 21:31 |
| fasta | Or well, I suppose it's useful if I am on some unknown computer. | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yay, ssh over IP over USB, on unclear/undetermined USB speed | 21:32 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: this wasn't really scientific. | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 21:32 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: it's just a data point. | 21:32 |
| fasta | To do a real scientific measurement would require knowing the usb protocol, I suppose. | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually a quite usefull datapoint as it's completely unrelated to the suspected bottleneck un H-E-N kernel patches | 21:33 |
| fasta | And all kinds of other things which probably takes months to get good at. | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nonetheless IIRC the musb_hdrc.c mentions that isochronous mode and scheduling isn't really supported with this driver implementation | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | all hail to super support from Mentorgraphics | 21:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/usb/musb/musb_core.c?a=mips#L70 | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/usb/musb/musb_core.c?a=mips#L54 | 21:40 |
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| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: it seems the whole GUI crashed :/ | 21:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | hmmm? | 21:41 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: rsync ssh transfer still is running, but pressing a button doesn't get me a screen. | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | device freeze? | 21:41 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: (on phone) | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, commonly known as swap-hell | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it will recover eventually if you don't touch it for a few minutes or hours | 21:42 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: why would it swap? | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usually | 21:42 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: the files are <10MB. | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | AIUI you copied some files | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a known though not yet completely understood effect | 21:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | some experts have rather educated guesses about what's going on, and it seems there are even workarounds that usually help avoiding this | 21:44 |
| fasta | DocScrutinizer05: top shows 7.9% for the largest process. | 21:45 |
| fasta | I cannot seem to be able to simply dump out all memory sizes to less. | 21:45 |
| fasta | -cannot | 21:45 |
| fasta | seem not* | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dmesg | 21:46 |
| fasta | I think that driver code is not that good. | 21:48 |
| fasta | 1): it's one giant module. 2) not everything is commented | 21:48 |
| fasta | 3) it doesn't do everything optimally and makes excuses. | 21:48 |
| SpeedEvil | RSS is a lie | 21:49 |
| SpeedEvil | it neglects shared library duplicate mappings | 21:49 |
| fasta | Well, I guess I just need a 80 core phone then. | 21:49 |
| fasta | With 20 usb ports. | 21:50 |
| SpeedEvil | http://www.selenic.com/smem/ | 21:50 |
| SpeedEvil | - works well on n900 | 21:50 |
| SpeedEvil | (the plot thingy doesn't) | 21:50 |
| fasta | SpeedEvil: does mercurial work? | 21:50 |
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| Raimu | Has somebody built smem into a binary that can be picked up somewhere? | 21:54 |
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| Raimu | Python, right... *blushes* | 21:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, I was sure I already downloaded it to IroN900 | 22:00 |
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| SpeedEvil | Raimu: yeah - the 'binary' in the tar works just fine | 22:07 |
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| fasta | Can I upgrade the kernel to the power kernel or is that a bad idea? | 22:10 |
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| fasta | I run latest stable CSSU. | 22:10 |
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| Raimu | CSSU is kernel-independent. It runs with with or without power-kernel. | 22:11 |
| Raimu | -with | 22:11 |
| fasta | Why doesn't CSSU also upgrade the kernel if that power kernel is superior in every way? | 22:11 |
| Raimu | Oh, now the can of worms is open. | 22:11 |
| Raimu | *chuckles* | 22:11 |
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| Raimu | Currently it's against CSSU philosophy, since it comes with a lot more than just fixes for broken or buggy things. | 22:12 |
| fasta | Raimu: so the kernel is not superior in every way? | 22:12 |
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| Raimu | I didn't say that. It's just that CSSU is a fixer first and a "new things" second sorta thing. | 22:13 |
| Raimu | And kernel-power keeps expanding on the things the stock kernel had. Way beyond bugfixes. | 22:13 |
| Raimu | So yeah, I would say it's all right to install kernel-power. After all, you need it for most of the really out-there things you can do on the n900.รถ | 22:14 |
| Raimu | So... I guess "Backup first, because it's a kernel flashing operation and things can get bricked." Even though k-p has never destroyed my n900. And likely never will. | 22:15 |
| fasta | Raimu: by 'backup' you just mean to the internal flash? | 22:16 |
| fasta | Raimu: or to a real external device? | 22:16 |
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| Raimu | Hmm. External device, I guess. I tend to transfer them on the PC with wi-fi. | 22:18 |
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| fasta | Raimu: just the rootfs? | 22:20 |
| Raimu | Oh, yeah. If no-one's mentioned it before, there's a great app named backupmenu for backing up rootfs and userfs. | 22:20 |
| fasta | Raimu: yeah, I have it. | 22:21 |
| fasta | Raimu: so, basically backup menu rootfs, copy backup offdevice? | 22:21 |
| Raimu | In most cases it's good to backup both root- and userfs. | 22:21 |
| fasta | Raimu: then, when everything goes wrong, write backup rootfs on another machine. | 22:21 |
| Raimu | (It doesn't copy MyDocs at all) | 22:21 |
| Raimu | If everything goes wrong, do a reflash of both VANILLA and COMBINE and restore everything else from your backups. | 22:22 |
| * Raimu isn't sure but thinks that's how it went. Anyone else clarify? | 22:23 | |
| fasta | Raimu: I don't think I still have VANILLA. | 22:23 |
| Raimu | Hmm? | 22:23 |
| fasta | Raimu: ok, define VANILLA first ;) | 22:24 |
| Raimu | http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware | 22:24 |
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| Raimu | Got to go know. Check out the wikis and the talks on maemo.org -- I pretty much picked everything up from those sources. | 22:24 |
| Raimu | *now | 22:25 |
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