IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2012-01-14

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dafoxthere is a time and place for cli, but for me email is not it :)00:07
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Estel_evening, maemo02:08
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Estel_w00t, have You guy been through logs from latest Council meeting with Nokia?03:34
Estel_the latter peaked @ ignorance, sophism, and lack of respect for Community.03:35
poro nice03:42
poroi never expected much supprot from Nokia when buying n90003:42
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poroforums were filled with 'a770, 810, whatever abandoned comments03:42
Estel_could not agree with Your taionale03:43
Hurrianthe pre-n900 tablets were relatively well supported -- the n900 was pretty much dropped like a rock03:43
Estel_from N9 users perspective, forum are filled with N900 posts03:43
Estel_anyway, I don't want support from Nokia as corporation - they can GTFO for me.03:43
Hurrianthe n9 seems to be getting the same attention the n900 got -- pr1.1 within a few months. woo.03:43
Estel_we have much more in common with 770 users, than with usual harmattan kids03:44
poron9 you know youre gettin an abandoned product03:44
Hurrian@Estel_ : they can gtfo after they give us the source.03:44
poron900 was being touted as "new strategy" for nokia on debian/gtk OS03:44
Estel_tbh, I see much *less* knowledge presented amongst N9 users, but, nevermid03:44
Estel_Hurrian,  true, but they wouldn't give us a source, so they could gtfo already03:45
Estel_Reading about how they think they don't need to ask us if they want to merge us with appsforme pissed me off really.03:45
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Estel_IMO, we should transfer infrastructure earlier, because one day03:45
Hurrianoh god. if we merged with appsforme the repo shitstorm would be massive.03:45
Estel_we can awake with our infrastructure gone in favor of harmattanish, and next week, winsh|tphone03:46
porowhatever "Appsforme" it sounds more frightening than ovi03:46
Estel_read ask the council thread pls03:46
Estel_in latest post I linked to part of logs from meeting03:46
Estel_logs are relatively short03:46
poroi could care less im never apt-get upgrading my maemo ever03:46
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Estel_and part I'm reffering to is even shorter03:46
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Estel_poro, not everyone is so supercool to not use repos ;)03:47
poroif the HW breaks, i'll buy tizen device if available. or reflash to PR1.303:47
Estel_tizen shitizen03:47
Estel_good luck with Big Bad Browser, erm, operating system03:47
poroive got extras-devel extras-testing cssu in sources.list03:47
Estel_anyway, going back on topic03:47
porogot an interesting new set of quirks on CSSU but my VOIP bugs remain03:48
Estel_VOIP worksforme03:48
Estel_;)03:48
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Hurrian@Estel_ ,is moving to appsforme the "solution" to tmo running out of money?03:51
porodoes http://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Recentchanges contain wahtever link youre talking about03:51
poroim not seeing anything like "council logs"03:51
poroand maemo isnt exactly open, so i donno why to talk trash about tizen03:52
poropraoblty it will be the same crap, proprietary drivers and fence-drop kernel03:52
porobut at least with omdern hardware going forward03:52
poroand youd honestly have to be insane to write GTK apps for na "app store" and nokia realized that03:52
poroJS/WebOS/HTML5 makes a ton of sense03:53
poroand microb is horrendously out of date,and chromium is not even in any of hte maemo repos03:53
poroso hang onto the past all you want, i'll be happy to leave it03:53
porocya03:53
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Estel_poro, I'm using chromium as my everyday browser on Maemo03:53
Estel_;)03:53
Estel_Hurrian,  no, they just want to suck developers from Maemo03:54
Estel_to Harmatishit03:54
Estel_well, it's harder to suck them to winshit, due to framework incompatibility03:54
Estel_appsforshit is quite like a next step after N950 project03:54
Estel_the faster we kick out Nokia from Maemo - erm, I meant we move away from Nokia ;) the better03:55
Hurrian@Estel_ , said action requires that we can build a full maemo system from open components03:57
Hurrianstill many maemothings that maemowants and are nokiaclosed.03:57
Estel_yea, but Nokias repos can work without us even linking to it03:59
Estel_it's just a part of support for device theyMve released03:59
Estel_if not, we can mirror it without problem03:59
Estel_if they won't allow us to mirror, well, last resort is P2p sharing of fool-proof local repo with data03:59
Estel_or repository hosted in some chineese hosting service ;)04:00
Estel_anyway04:00
Estel_hosting for community sized like us is 100-150 bucks04:00
Estel_we dont need many parts from original system. I can live without useless "news" feed from blogs04:00
Estel_forum is Reggie hosted, but database are ours, I mean forum content04:01
Estel_we can migrate whenever we want04:01
Estel_repository - despite cheap, hosting, sticking with Debian is also interesting idea04:01
Estel_as someone said, they would not even notice our transfer etc04:01
Hurrianpreferably, migrate to not vbforum04:01
Estel_yes04:02
Estel_some open thing04:02
Hurriane.g. phpbb04:02
Estel_if possible without much hassle from vbforum database04:02
Estel_or simpleforumachine or whatever04:02
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Hurrianthe converters from vb <> phpbb work well, havent tried them on as large a DB as tmo though04:02
Estel_No, really, DocScrutinizer is right that we can start literally right now - funds needed are much lower than I expected04:02
Estel_fundriasing, foundation etc may be achieved later04:03
Estel_without any legal problems04:03
Estel_Nokians can literally bite their own ass with their appsformeego merging with maemo04:03
Hurrianbrb - new kernel needs reboot04:05
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Hurrian@Estel_ , how many GBs of packages do repos have?04:08
Hurriani can imagine extras-devel and testing have lost their purpose by now04:09
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Estel_Hurrian,  try to ask Nokians about traffic or size of zMaemo infrastruxcture - they're "not able to give definite answer" for 3 months now04:12
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Estel_it seems that we need to dump content on our own anyway04:12
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Estel_il will keep at least 2 repo instances (devel and normal), but, size isn't big problem04:13
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Estel_DocScrutinizer had some interesting comparisions on hosting prices04:13
Estel_even cheap ones are probably enough to keep whole infrastructure 3 pr 4 times ;)04:13
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Hurrianhmm, is having separate repo for devel still necessary?04:15
Estel_probably yes, if Someone accidentaly upload breaking version04:18
Estel_many people are still using autoupdate04:18
Estel_imagine bootlooping kernel in extras ;)04:18
Hurrian:O04:18
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Hurrianpoint taken.04:19
Hurriani have an idea, why not make a core components repo?04:20
Hurriani have not seen core components being updated like a desktop linux system04:20
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Hurrianclosest to that would be nokia's ssu04:20
Hurriani don't remember cssu pulling in new components other than qt libs04:21
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Estel_might be good idea, would need to ask actual CSSU devs04:22
Estel_there are two flavors of CSSU anyway, stable and testing04:23
Estel_no much point in having it doubled to devel and extras further04:23
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Hurrian@Estel_ : what i meant is that busybox-power would be the new busybox, kernel power is standard, we have a new e2fsprogs, etc.04:26
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Hurriansomething like a rolling release distro04:28
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Estel_nice04:30
Hurrianbrb04:31
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Hurriancrap. dropped my phone.07:21
Hurrianback cover and battery flew off, but no scratches or shaking emmc's can be seen anywhere07:22
Hurrianonly problem is that the right side of the slider is looser than the left.07:22
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Lava_Croftoh, i have that since forever08:41
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Lava_Croftright side always is looser08:41
Lava_Croftsecond N900, same looseness08:42
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Lava_Croftprobably related to always using the right hand on the right side to slide open the device08:57
r00t|homebut only until you notice, after that you always take care to push at the center08:58
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Lava_Croftoh, i dont:)09:00
Lava_Croftmy mantra is more like "Screw it, I have two of em."09:00
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Lava_CroftI wonder if there are any updated chromium builds...09:10
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freemangordonLava_Croft: ping09:56
Lava_Croftfreemangordon: pong09:57
Lava_CroftI tested some more with kp4909:57
Lava_Croftno luck<09:58
freemangordonLava_Croft, you said something about KP and battery usage a few days ago I didn't quite understand09:58
Lava_Croftwell, you said i should have a longer lasting battery09:58
freemangordonno luck as in?09:58
Lava_Croftit just drains the battery faster for me09:58
freemangordonwhicj KP?09:58
Lava_Croft4909:59
freemangordonwhich?09:59
freemangordonfrom repos?09:59
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Lava_Croftfrom extras-devel09:59
Lava_Croftyes09:59
freemangordonSR enabled?09:59
Lava_Croftand it might be a placebo effect, but it seems it drains faster when using lower voltages09:59
Lava_Croftyes09:59
Lava_Croftso far, the best result was with 'ideal' and sr enabled09:59
freemangordon:D09:59
Lava_Croftbut still it drained like 150% faster than stock kernel09:59
Lava_Croftif not more09:59
Lava_Crofti use the device a lot for streaming radio over 2g/3g and webbrowsing10:00
freemangordonwell, it does not matter which profile you use if you enable SR10:00
Lava_Croftah10:00
Lava_Crofti just cannot figure out for the life of me why it drains faster, im not that technical:P10:00
freemangordonabsolutely no difference as SR calculates the voltage10:00
Lava_Crofti kind of had that idea, yes10:00
Lava_Croftbut thought what the hell10:00
Lava_Croftbut the odd thing is10:01
Lava_Croftolder versions of kp, (iirc <47) did not drain the battery this fast10:01
Lava_Crofti used KP all the time with the older versions10:01
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freemangordonYou can try latest build from pali, i've changed SR a little. Do you use u-boot by any chance?10:02
Lava_Croftno uboot10:02
freemangordonhave no ide than, but i can bet it is not the kernel itself10:02
freemangordon*idea10:02
Lava_Croftwell, i havent changed anything, really10:02
Lava_Croftanything that might possibly ruin stuff, that is10:02
freemangordonanything in dmesg?10:02
freemangordonwhat powertop says?10:03
Lava_Croftprobably not anymore, i removed kp4910:03
Lava_Crofti only have 3 batteries :<10:03
freemangordonyeah, very helpfull :(10:03
Hurrianohai freemangordon10:03
Lava_Croftoh, i could install it again10:03
Lava_Croftno problem10:03
Hurrianmy recently dropped n900 is not crashing with sr vdd1 and 2 on. probably a good sign/10:04
Lava_Croftoh yeah freemangordon, enabling SR was indeed stable10:04
Lava_Croftfor what its worth:)10:04
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Lava_Croftfreemangordon: anything else besides kernel-power you want me to install10:06
Lava_Croftthat might aid in troubleshooting10:06
freemangordonHurrian, is it my latest build from KP thread on TMO10:06
freemangordonLava_Croft: powertop10:06
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Lava_Croftalready have that, rebooting10:07
Lava_Croftim so happy my cracked lens cover isnt visible for the camera10:07
Hurrian@freemangordon yes, using the bootimg10:08
freemangordonHurrian, yes, that is a good sign as the way SR calculations are done there will make it in KP5010:08
Lava_Croftfreemangordon: perferred way to enable SR is to save a profile to ~ and enable it in there?10:10
freemangordonI don't thenk there is any preffered way10:10
freemangordon*think10:10
Lava_Croftill ask it differently then: how do you enable it? :)10:10
freemangordonkernel-config load dsp10:10
freemangordonor kernel-config load default if you don't overclock10:11
Lava_Croftdone10:11
Lava_Crofti dont mind overclocking a bit10:11
freemangordonwell, dsp profile overclock to 80510:11
Lava_Croft805mhz max freq, odd10:11
Lava_Croftyeah, i saw10:11
freemangordonwahy odd?10:11
freemangordonwhy*10:11
Lava_Croftodd number10:12
Lava_Croftone would expect 800 or 85010:12
Lava_Croftrunning powertop10:12
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freemangordonthat is a legacy from titan, but I am sure he has his reasons, maybe PLL does not like 800 as a frequency10:12
Lava_Croftyou want the output on pastebin?10:13
freemangordonsure10:13
Lava_Croftbastard opera mobile omitting http://10:16
Lava_Crofthttp://pastebin.com/Mrh9NTLL freemangordon10:17
freemangordonLava_Croft: charger connected?10:18
Lava_Croftnope10:18
Lava_Croftneeds to be?10:18
freemangordonno10:18
freemangordonjust too much of activity10:18
Lava_Croftfrom?10:18
freemangordonmaybe the device was not settled down10:18
Lava_Crofti just did powertop > powertop.txt10:19
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Lava_Croftshall i try a fresh reboot -> wait 5 minutes -> run powertop10:19
Lava_Croftto give the device all the time it needs to settle down10:19
freemangordonhmm, lets do it again in several minutes. And lock the device after pressing enter key, so the screen is off10:20
Lava_Croftok10:20
freemangordonno reboot needed10:20
freemangordonaccording to top, which is the most CPU-active process?10:21
Lava_Croftapart from htop itself, Xorg10:22
SpeedEviland unplug the USB power10:22
freemangordongood, seems the device is calm, you can do powertop again10:22
freemangordonSpeedEvil (nod)10:22
Lava_Crofti am using the 'speedpatch' because i love placebos10:23
freemangordonLava_Croft, why oh why10:24
Lava_Crofti smoke cigarettes too10:24
Lava_Croftmight be related to it10:24
Lava_Crofti already was a but suspicious of it, but your comment here makes me remove it10:25
freemangordonI am smoker too, but that is not the reason to buy cheap ones full of ter10:25
Lava_Crofthar10:25
freemangordon*tar10:25
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freemangordonLava_Croft, read this http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1148490&postcount=29 and this http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1148766&postcount=3410:29
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freemangordonLava_Croft: what has happened with powertop?10:30
Lava_Croftpastebinning it10:31
freemangordonok10:31
Lava_Crofthttp://pastebin.com/5UMYxTD810:32
Lava_Croftdoesnt look that different10:32
Lava_Croft(to me)10:33
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freemangordonTotal wakeups  42353 ?!? WTF? should be less than 1500 if connected to inet with IM accounts logged on.10:34
Lava_Crofteh10:34
SpeedEvilIs it plugged into USB?10:34
Lava_Croftnope10:34
Lava_Croftscreen was off too10:34
Lava_Croftit is logged into 2 jabber accounts (facebook chat and another jabber server)10:34
SpeedEvilok - what's intellisyncd?10:35
freemangordonI am wondering too10:35
Lava_CroftPIM syncing i think10:35
Lava_CroftThe Intellisync Corporation is a provider of Data and PIM Synchronization software for mobile devices, such as Cell Phones and PDAs. The company is currently a part of Nokia, after it was acquired in 2006.10:35
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Lava_Crofti use the awful nokia messaging so incoming emails give me a notifcation right away10:36
SpeedEvilhttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9334 - probably not10:37
povbotBug 9334: Corrupted isync_mailstore.db causes process 'intellisync' restarting in short intervals10:37
Lava_Croftdont think so either10:37
SpeedEvilmay it be actually downloading stuff?10:38
SpeedEvilalso - stracing it may be of use.10:38
Lava_Crofti dont know if the nokia messaging stuff is related to intellisync10:38
Lava_Croftcould very well be10:38
freemangordonLava_Croft, can you put the device offline and try again, seems a lot of activity is going on when connected10:39
freemangordonbtw anything suspicios in dmesg?10:39
Lava_Croftnot that i can see10:40
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freemangordonok, try again with device in offline mode10:40
Lava_Croftdoing so atm10:41
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SpeedEvilalso - try rebooting10:41
freemangordonSpeedEvil, why is that, it is freshly booted10:42
SpeedEvilnvm then10:42
Lava_Crofthttp://pastebin.com/SaMk6bBv10:45
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Lava_Croftthats more like it, i reckon10:45
Lava_Croft427 wakeups10:45
freemangordonyeah, that is how it should be.10:45
Lava_Crofti could try and disable the nokia messaging stuff10:45
freemangordonstill having "speedpatch"?10:45
Lava_Croftnope10:46
freemangordongood10:46
Lava_Croftremoved the bashrc etc it created too10:46
SpeedEvilyou should - ideally - be seeing something more like 2+ seconds average idletime in C410:46
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freemangordonwell, whatever eats your battery, it is not KP10:46
freemangordonnow,...10:46
Lava_Croftto find out what the hell is causing like what10:46
Lava_Croft40k wakeups10:47
freemangordoncopy dsp profile to /etc/default/kernel-power10:47
freemangordonand edit it so the limits are 125-80510:47
Lava_Croftwhere is the profile located?10:48
Lava_Croftthe dsp one (and the others)10:48
Lava_Crofti could load it, save it to ~ and then move to /etc10:49
freemangordonno10:49
freemangordon"usr/share/kernel-power" or something10:49
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freemangordon"/usr/..."10:49
Lava_Croftyeah, kernel-power-settings i guess10:49
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freemangordonLava_Croft: that is assuming you device is stable with SR10:50
Lava_Croftit has been in my testing10:50
Lava_Croftwhich lasted several days10:50
freemangordongood10:50
Lava_Croftonly downside was the battery drain10:50
Lava_Croftthe rest works flawlessly and without hitches10:50
Lava_Croftreboot?10:51
freemangordonhold on10:51
freemangordonnow, you have "/usr/share/kernel-power/dsp" copied as "/etc/default/kernel-power"? And you've changed MINFREQ to be 125?10:52
Lava_Croftyes10:52
freemangordongood, reboot10:52
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Lava_Crofthooray, it didnt break10:53
freemangordon:D10:53
freemangordoncheck if correct profile is loaded with kernel-config show10:53
Lava_Croftever since my first n900 randomly died, everytime it lags just a little bit, i get scared:<10:53
Lava_Croftcorrect profile loaded10:54
Lava_Croftill give it a bit of juice10:54
Lava_Croftthe rebooting hurts battery10:54
freemangordongood, now give the bugger some time to calm down and redo the powertop stuff.10:55
Lava_Croftok10:55
freemangordonwell, about 5% or so, it is not so much10:55
Lava_Croftits not like the battery status readings are completely sane10:55
Lava_Croft:P10:55
freemangordonyeah10:55
Lava_Crofti use advanced-power too, btw10:55
freemangordonahaa10:55
Lava_Croftbut thats just since a few days and never hurt battery10:55
Lava_Croftthe testing with kp49 was without it10:56
freemangordonthat is why hildon-status-menu is waking up the CPU10:56
Lava_Croftadvanced-power is bad mojo, too?10:56
freemangordonAFAIK10:56
Lava_Croftsuggest to remove it?10:56
freemangordonyeah10:57
Lava_Croftwill do so now10:57
Lava_Croftheh10:58
Lava_Croftadvanced-interface-switcher is related to advanced-power?10:58
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freemangordonAFAIK it is python (or some other script) Could be wrong of course.10:58
Lava_Croftadvanced-power is python, im sure of that10:58
freemangordonwell, imagine what that stuff is doing with your RAM when constantly loaded ;)10:59
Lava_Croftapt-get remove advanced-power advancer-power-common advanced-power-monitor also makes apt-get want to remove advanced-interface-switcher10:59
Lava_Croftheh10:59
freemangordonwhat is this doing?11:00
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freemangordonwhay it is so precios11:00
Lava_Croftadvanced-interface-switcher is a status menu plugin to switch/turn off or on BT, 2g/3g and wlan11:00
freemangordon* precious11:00
Lava_Crofteasy way to switch to 3g when wanting to browse the web11:00
Lava_Croftand to easily turn off wlan when leaving home11:00
Lava_Croftthere are several other status menu plugins for it, but they clutter the status menu11:01
freemangordon2g/3g selection applet?11:01
Lava_Croftlike that, yes, only combined with wifi switcher11:01
Lava_Croftit can also automagically turn off wlan after a set amount of time without any accessible networks11:01
Lava_Croftill just let apt-get remove it11:02
freemangordonwhy you need to switch wifi off? reduced battery usage?11:02
Lava_Croftyes11:02
Lava_Crofttheres no need to have wlan enabled when im not going to use it at all11:02
Lava_Croftmy workday is all spent on 2g/3g11:02
Lava_Croftremoving it all11:03
Lava_Croftthe repos need some red flashing light to mark packages that are just fucked up11:03
freemangordonwell, I am using stock applet for managing wlan/gprs and didn't see any ill effects. I make it trough day with half of a battery11:04
Lava_Croftstock applet, you mean the config panel?11:04
freemangordonyeah11:05
Lava_Croftwell, the 2g/3g switcher and wlan switcher never caused trouble here11:05
freemangordon4 IM accounts, BT handsfree, 1-2 hours of browsing11:05
Lava_Croftand i switch from 2g to 3g quite a bit on a workday, so it gets annoying to have to enter the config panel all the time11:05
freemangordonconstantly online11:05
Lava_Croftyeah, same here11:05
Lava_Croftn900 is my lifeline11:05
freemangordonKP49 :p11:05
freemangordonno need to enter cp all the time11:06
freemangordonjust set it up to connect automatically11:06
Lava_Croftthat wont easily let me switch between 2g and 3g... ?11:07
Lava_Crofteasily as in, without entering the cp and 'disabling' 3g, or enabling it11:07
freemangordonI switch to 3g only when fast inet needed, 3g eats my battery for 4-5 hours11:07
Lava_Croftyup11:08
Lava_Croftsame here11:08
Lava_Croftradio can stream fine over 2g11:08
freemangordonI use 2g/3g selection applet11:08
Lava_Croftthats what i used for most of the time, until i saw advanced-interace-switcher11:08
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Lava_Crofthaha11:14
Lava_Croft937 wakeups now11:14
Lava_Croftin online mode11:14
Lava_Croftridiculous....11:14
Lava_Croftill have to flag some more packages as "evil" in my mind now11:14
Lava_Crofti guess this sets a new field for testing the battery life, which i will start on monday11:15
Lava_Croftthanks a bunch so far, freemangordon11:15
Lava_Crofti will certainly keep you informed11:15
freemangordonnp, thanks11:15
Siceloporr KP11:15
Sicelo*poor11:15
Lava_Croftwell, the thing is11:15
Lava_Croftthe battery life went down after installing KP:)11:16
Lava_Croftso for a poor end-user like myself that makes it look like KP is the culprit11:16
Sicelofor 3g/2g switching i use 'phone-control' lol11:16
Lava_Crofthaha11:17
Siceloworks fine for me ;) .. maybe i should make a DCX button for it :P11:18
freemangordonSicelo, that is exactly what 2g/3g selection applet does11:19
Sicelobtw that's on status menu?11:20
freemangordonyep11:20
freemangordonvery handy11:20
Sicelou trust it then :)11:21
Siceloi'll install it soon. i try not to install stuff unnecessarily11:22
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freemangordonSame here, but this one is really useful11:24
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Siceloalthough i very rarely use 3G, for battery reasons and the fact that i don't usually need fast data (expensive anyway)11:24
Sicelothanks freemangordon. installed already :)11:25
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SpeedEvilhttp://eu.techcrunch.com/2009/08/11/nokia-ditching-symbian-for-maemo-german-ft-reports/11:40
Lava_Crofthaha11:41
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x29aSpeedEvil: nostalgia? thats from 2009 afair11:50
SpeedEvilmeh11:51
Lava_Croftyou didnt notice, SpeedEvil? :D11:51
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x29abut nokia is always great for a good laugh11:52
SpeedEvilyes, I noticed.11:53
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Lava_Crofthttp://www.bgr.com/2012/01/13/nokia-sells-more-than-450-patents-to-patent-troll/12:13
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* DocScrutinizer sells 50,000 trained rats to patent troll's neighbour12:48
DocScrutinizerninja rats ;-)12:48
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* DocScrutinizer honestly thinks patents shouldn't be a tradable good12:51
Lava_Croftpatents should not exist12:52
SpeedEvilApart perhaps from individuals to corporate - once.12:52
Lava_Croftat all12:52
SpeedEvilPatents should, and must exist.12:52
DocScrutinizermeh, FU aspellchecker -- tradeable*12:52
SpeedEvilBut they need to be _sharply_ limited.12:52
SpeedEvilThe 'obviousness' test should be beefed up hugely.12:53
SpeedEvilYou do not get to patent 'protecting metal surfaces with paint on flying cars'.12:53
SpeedEvilBecause you invented the flying car.12:53
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Lava_Croftwhy should you even be allowed to patent your invention of the flying car13:15
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badcloudhow to edit cssu key shortcuts? e.g. ctrl shift x for term13:18
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badcloud(not sure if that's cssu related)13:18
Sicelohildon-desktop in cssu is  'related' to m-h-d ... therefore,  http://wiki.maemo.org/Modified_Hildon_Desktop13:22
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badcloudSicelo: thanks13:22
DocScrutinizerit's a shame that obviously there's no system wide concept for hotkeys at all13:23
Lava_Crofttotally13:23
DocScrutinizerlike e.g. found in KDE13:23
Lava_Croftbad example13:23
DocScrutinizerkhotkeys13:23
Lava_Croftbut yeah13:23
DocScrutinizerexcellent example13:23
Lava_Croftexcept its KDE, so it makes my skin crawl ;)13:24
Lava_Croftbadcloud: not sure if you can actually change the keyboard shortcuts13:24
Lava_Croftafaik you can just enable or disable them?13:25
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badcloudthat sucks13:30
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Lava_Croftyeah13:38
Lava_Croftctrl+shift+x might as well have been cltr+shift+a+b+c+d+f+g or whatever13:39
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DocScrutinizerI bet it's hardcoded14:10
DocScrutinizerand I think it would actually be a pretty good idea to replace the hardcoded hotkey handling by some augmented function that looks up arbitrary actions for arbitrary hotkey combinations in e.g gconf or a simple config file or whatever14:12
DocScrutinizerif somebody was going to implement that into MHD, I'd love to support the project and push it into CSSU14:13
DocScrutinizerfor all I know, standard Qt already has accelerator key support for virtually everything (buttons, menu entries, whatever else)14:15
DocScrutinizerso fixing fremantle Qt and GTK to support it (again) would be a first great step. Then create a tool to let user redefine those per/in-app accelerator keys, plus handle the global hotkeys in MHD and allow to start arbitrary actions on hotkey-combos that aren't already caught by in-app accelerator keys14:18
DocScrutinizeractually looking into the concept used by KDE is a good starting point, though implementation might differ slightly on a code and architecture level14:20
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freemangordonping lxp14:37
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freemangordonping pali14:44
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* DocScrutinizer moos at freemangordon14:50
freemangordon...why is that? :)14:50
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DocScrutinizer~lart estel14:51
* infobot farts in estel's general direction14:51
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DocScrutinizerfrom arbitrary channel:14:51
DocScrutinizer[2012-01-14 09:45:13] *** Das Thema wurde am 2011-07-25 04:09 von DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg gesetzt.14:51
DocScrutinizer[2012-01-14 09:45:16] <apt> Hi there, see:  http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1148886&postcount=668. Is the proposition of sponsoring server for few months still actual?14:51
DocScrutinizer[2012-01-14 09:45:26] *** Kanalmodi: +Cn14:52
DocScrutinizer>:-(((14:52
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* DocScrutinizer heads out to do a 30min duty to clean out the mess estel created14:52
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DocScrutinizerWTF?! [2012-01-12 23:40:43] <Estel_> ~onjoin -DocScrutinizer  [2012-01-12 23:40:44] <infobot> Estel_: ok  [2012-01-12 23:41:17] <DocScrutinizer> ~onjoin -DocScrutinizer  [2012-01-12 23:41:17] <infobot> ok, DocScrutinizer  [2012-01-14 13:54:27] <DocScrutinizer> onjoin docscrutinizer   [2012-01-14 13:54:29] <infobot> onjoin for docscrutinizer set by estel_ on ***Wed Jan 11 10:24:28 2012***: Hi there, see:  http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?15:00
DocScrutinizerp=1148886&postcount=668. Is the proposition of sponsoring server for few months still actual?15:00
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ShadowJKit's still doing it?15:02
DocScrutinizeryes, on ALL channels I join15:02
ShadowJKlol15:02
ShadowJKhere too?15:03
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DocScrutinizerhere not :-P15:03
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DocScrutinizeronly chan it's not posted when I join15:03
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: [2012-01-14 14:11:16] <DocScrutinizer> GvzEvxre: I again suggest to change onjoin cmd to work like:  >>onjoin [#chan|_default][:N] [-]<nick> [message]<< where N gives number of onjoin actions after which the onjoin is getting deleted. N defaults to 1, 0 measn infinite, and non-privileged users mustn't use :N so it defaults to 1, and also non-privileged users must use [#chan] but may not use _default for it. If there's already a15:14
DocScrutinizeronjoin setting with N!=1 or empty/"_default" #chan then a nonprivileged user mustn't redefine it15:14
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freddddRobot101, any news on the Jabber SSL thing?15:15
Robot101fredddd: hmm we could try adding a load more debug and see that way. I think fledermaus wanted to test on an N900 directly15:16
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badcloudDocScrutinizer: doesn't this imply system wide hotkeys? (taken from http://wiki.maemo.org/Modified_Hildon_Desktop) /apps/osso/hildon-desktop/key-actions/dbus_shift_ctrl (*)15:17
badcloud"If the value of this key is true, then ctrl-shift-letter combinations are reported on the d-bus, allowing implementation of global shortcut keys. H,N,P,X are reported on the dbus only if the previous key is false."15:17
DocScrutinizerbadcloud: there *are* system-wide hotkeys like shift-ctrl-x15:18
Lava_Croftbut there is no coherent system for managing them15:18
DocScrutinizerooh yeah15:18
badcloudbut they cannot be altered15:18
badcloudaaah15:18
Lava_Croftlike DocScrutinizer said, they might very well be hardcoded15:18
badcloudgotcha15:18
DocScrutinizerwe'd need a dbus-listener to act on systemwide hotkeys15:18
DocScrutinizerobviously MHD already provides a API for it15:19
DocScrutinizerif however that API is comprehensive to also handle per-app accelerator keys (which are basically just a set of hotkeys specific to that app and onlyget used when app "has focus") - I dunno15:20
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DocScrutinizeralso seems systemwide hotkeys are restricted to shift-control-[$CAHR]15:21
Lava_Croftwhich is a fuckedup key combo15:22
badcloudLava_Croft: +115:22
badcloudwhat do you guys use as a substitute for the tab key btw15:23
DocScrutinizerwe should remove that restriction, and rather allow to define arbitrary key [combo] for hotkeys15:23
DocScrutinizerin xchat? shift-space15:23
Macertmux is great15:23
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badcloudDocScrutinizer: does that work for all apps?15:23
DocScrutinizerno, it's a xchat keybinding15:24
badcloudMacer: yeah, I remember using it a lot too15:24
Macerbadcloud: i was having problems with screen and decided to swap15:24
ShadowJKctrl-i works in xterm15:24
ShadowJKiirc15:24
Maceri think i am going to stick with tmux ;)15:24
DocScrutinizersure15:24
Lava_Croftscreen had oddities on n90015:24
ShadowJK(but I usually use the onscreen key)15:24
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Lava_Crofthad/has15:24
badcloudthe ctrl left/right doesn't work in opera :`(15:24
Macerscreed has oddities everywhere15:24
Lava_Croftbadcloud: you mean to switch windows?15:24
Lava_Croftor tabs15:24
Macerfor some reason, especially on embedded devices, screen stops working15:25
badcloudLava_Croft: no, move between form entry15:25
Maceri never found the underlying cause15:25
Lava_Croftah15:25
DocScrutinizerctrl-left/right is usually bound to word-left/right, for line discipline15:25
Lava_CroftMacer: same here, decided not to bother15:25
Lava_Crofti run screen on a remote box, case solved15:25
Maceryeah. tha twas my problem. my remote box was an embedded device ;)15:25
Macerrunning the same hw as an n81015:25
Lava_Crofthah15:25
Macerspeaking of n810 i was going to install debian or gentoo on it15:26
Lava_Croftmine is some german VPS15:26
Macermine is a synology diskstation15:26
DocScrutinizershift-ctrl-left/right is bound to highlight-word15:26
Macerscreen would just stop responding and would't reattach even though it was still running15:26
Maceri should flash the n81015:26
Macerit has been collecting dust heh15:26
ShadowJKI find I accidentally press ctrl-s frequently when using screen on N90015:27
DocScrutinizertab/shift-tab is the commonly accepted way to navigate from one input field to next/prev, in any form15:27
MacerShadowJK: i thought that was the problem too but it wasn't15:28
Macereven after cleanly detatching... starting a new term.. and attempting a reattach it wouldn't attach15:28
badcloudDocScrutinizer: but there really isn't a comfortable obtion for tab on the n900, right?15:28
Macerit wouldn't happen often but often enough to curse screen heh15:28
DocScrutinizerctrl-i IS tab15:28
Macereither way... tmux is nice15:28
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Maceri would say if not just as good as sceen, better15:29
Macerbut this synology is too weak. i think it is the 128MB of ram15:29
DocScrutinizeror rather: tab key is bound to ctrl-i for all usual input15:29
Maceri should have just waited and gotten a stronger synology with more ram15:29
DocScrutinizerreadline discipline15:30
Macerbut it does give me the opportunity to install hurd debian on my artigo :)15:30
badcloudDocScrutinizer: good to know, only this doesn't seem to work in opera15:30
Macerit will be interesting to see what has become of hurd15:30
DocScrutinizerwell, opera seems to use raw char input15:30
DocScrutinizers/char/keycode/15:30
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: well, opera seems to use raw keycode input15:30
badcloudic15:30
DocScrutinizerdoesn't opera even come with proprietary vkbd?15:31
badcloudyes, without tab iirc15:31
DocScrutinizerthen blame opera :-D15:32
* badcloud blames Canada15:32
DocScrutinizerif opera doesn't use normal keymap mechanism neither readline discipline, then they *ought* provide a proprietary way to define key mappings15:33
badcloudyep15:33
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Lava_Croftdoesnt opera mobile come with an input.ini15:37
Lava_Croftthat you can edit15:37
badcloudLava_Croft: not that I know of15:38
badcloud(looked in .opera just now)15:38
Maceromg it is 16 outside15:39
Macerdamn. i need a usb optical drive to install hurd debian on this artigo15:39
Macerthey dont have a thumb drive img :(15:40
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badcloudapart from lack of tab and google being default search engine, I think opera is much better than microb15:41
Lava_Croftyup15:41
Lava_Croftendlessly better15:41
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badcloudopera mobile user agent really kicks ass with some sites15:43
badcloud(I know it can be changed for microb)15:43
badcloudbut I'm not sure those sites work the way they should using microb + different user agent (will try sometime)15:44
badcloudhas anyone tried m.google.com w/microb + alternate user agent?15:44
DocScrutinizerMacer: 16 what? °C? o'clock? dudes shouting up your window?15:47
badcloudDocScrutinizer: me thinks F15:48
DocScrutinizer~convert 16 degF to degC15:48
infobot16 degF is approximately 8.88889 degC15:48
ShadowJK~convert -7 degC to degF15:49
badcloudwhat? no no, what I think he meant is that it's 16F degrees outside15:49
infobot-7 degC is approximately -12.6 degF15:49
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DocScrutinizerdeg* is obsolete15:50
DocScrutinizer~convert 16 tempF to tempC15:50
infobottempF(16) is approximately -8.88889 tempC15:50
DocScrutinizers/obsolete/outright buggy/15:51
DocScrutinizer~+help convert15:52
infobot   Desc: Convert from one unit to another15:52
infobot  Usage: convert [number] <units> to <units>15:52
infobotExample: convert 55 tempF to tempC15:52
infobotExample: convert 60 mph to kph15:52
infobotExample: convert 60 miles per hour to km/hour15:52
infobotExample: convert gallons to cm^315:52
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DocScrutinizerI urged Tim to fix it just 2 weeks ago :-)15:54
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DocScrutinizerthen I forgot about the new syntax :-P15:54
DocScrutinizer~botsnack15:55
infobotthanks, DocScrutinizer15:55
DocScrutinizer~seen timriker15:55
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infobottimriker <~TimRiker@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker> was last seen on IRC in channel #ldstech, 2d 13h 30m 41s ago, saying: 'auto-builds work. :) talk to tccastaldo about any details. I've been working on the status page, not made any other big changes. cleaned paths to some of the applets it about all.'.15:55
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DocScrutinizerI'm pondering to remove OnJoin=1 from _default - for a temporary hotfix of the onjoin problem, though that's a major surgery on how infobot works15:57
DocScrutinizermight break onjoins others as well as I rely on15:57
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MacerDocScrutinizer: F ;)16:06
Macerwe use F here... lol... like heathens16:06
Maceri would guess... 3C?16:06
Maceri am not good on conversion16:06
DrGrovDocScrutinizer: Hi Doc, perhaps you got a good clarifying answer for me regarding a N9 and contacts?16:08
* Macer stares at the topic16:09
DrGrovYes, I know. Wrong place but nobody has a an answer at #harmattan16:09
DocScrutinizerso do I16:11
DrGrovDocScrutinizer: You are staring at the topic yes?16:11
DocScrutinizerI'm in #harmattan as well, and not the top expert over there16:12
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ruskiehttp://www.reghardware.com/2012/01/13/designer_pitches_tech_trio_powered_by_portable_processor/17:16
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DocScrutinizermoo javispedro17:20
javispedromoo17:20
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* javispedro is reinstalling the chinook and diablo SDKs and can confirm they still work with the latest sbox versions17:25
DocScrutinizer\o/17:26
DocScrutinizerwhat is more amazing though: they obviously still are available for installation :-D17:26
DocScrutinizerchinook, omg17:26
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kerioDocScrutinizer: why did ms feel the need to kill the nokia internet tablet? :'(17:38
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javispedroyeah17:39
DocScrutinizerseems to me Nokia didn't need M$ for that17:39
* javispedro still thinks that Bora/Chinook had the best UI of all17:39
kerionah, elop did it17:39
Sicelojavispedro: +117:40
DocScrutinizerwhat changed in GUI from chinook to diablo?17:42
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javispedrolarger applications menu for example17:42
DocScrutinizerooh?17:43
DocScrutinizerwel, I used chinook for as long as it takes to reflash ;-D17:43
javispedro(or task navigator as it was called =) )17:43
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DocScrutinizerdefinitely diablo had a more sane hw-kbd hotkey integration for GUI than fremantle ever had17:44
* DocScrutinizer recalls the "more" icon on "primary" appstarter menu of fremantle PR-pre1.2(?), and wonders wth the GUI designers are smoking whole day to come up with weird concept tweaks every now and then17:47
ruskiehehe17:47
ruskieI actually liked that "More" thing17:48
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Siceloi never used them. lol. but for a user coming from S80, the older maemo gui's are more 'natural'17:48
DocScrutinizerI switched to apmefo as the original crap was unbearable17:48
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DocScrutinizernow I got my own nicely sorted "more" folders ;-D17:50
DocScrutinizerlike "multimedia", "system", "core apps"...17:50
Sicelohmm, this apmefo works fine?17:50
DocScrutinizereventually might invent "location"17:51
DocScrutinizerSicelo: basically yes. The config GUI is abysmal but I need it only once every 3 months. And you MUSTN'T drag icons to reposition them, as you can do in stock applauncher17:52
DocScrutinizerwill need you starting apmefo to recover your whole icon/subdir settup17:52
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Siceloi understand Catorize or similar does the same thing .. which is better?17:52
DocScrutinizerapart from that, apmefo is just fine17:52
DocScrutinizercatorize didn't offer your private choice of subdirs, so it was even worse than stock17:53
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DocScrutinizercatorize just duplicated the groups as found in HAM17:53
DocScrutinizerand nothing you could change to your liking17:54
DocScrutinizer:-/17:54
Sicelogotcha. thanx for info. :)17:54
DocScrutinizerwith apmefo though you create your own subdirs and sort icons to as many subdirs as you want to17:54
ruskiehmm interesting17:55
ruskiewasn't aware of that17:55
DocScrutinizeronly thing I'm missing in apmefo are sub-sub-dirs17:56
DocScrutinizerobviously hildon-desktop/hildon-home isn't aware of apmefo, so if you drag an icon, hildon-* nukes apmefo's setup of the icons and generic subdirs. You need to start and "save" apmefo to re-create everything from apmefo's config stored somewhere else17:59
ruskieI'd be happy if this were a core function... iirc even S60 devices support this type of sorting17:59
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* DocScrutinizer idly ponders how apmefo, MHD, and CSSU relate to each other. Maybe get a patch for MHD/H-H into CSSU so it won't mess with apmefo?18:01
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Lava_Croftmy visitors are playing wordfeud and here i am with my n90020:45
Lava_Croftfeeling all left behind, while im looking over my shoulder and wondering whats keeping my friends so long20:46
Lava_Croft /poetry20:46
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uhsfSamsung will merge bada OS into the Tizen project!22:15
mgedminwhat's left? webos?22:18
wmarone__BorgOS22:18
uhsfmaybe Nokia's meltemi could join in too?22:19
Lava_Croftnokia did not make for a very credible partner with intel, so probably not22:26
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* SpeedEvil imagines Ubuntu buying nokia.22:49
* RST38h imagines AOL buying nokia22:50
Lava_Croftall the q_q22:52
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SpeedEvilExtrapolating the stock price of nokia over the next year and a half, it falls into the range at which Ubuntu could buy it. :/22:53
ShadowJKnetscape :/22:54
Lava_Croftsuomis should nationalize nokia22:55
Lava_Croftif it comes to takeovers22:55
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SpeedEvilHmm. Stock price was last about this low in Feb 1998.22:56
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Lava_Croftnokia survived worse than this22:59
Lava_Croftcompany isnt new22:59
SpeedEvilWell - yes.23:02
SpeedEvilSpeaking personally, I'd like it to do more than what it looks like it's headed for in the next several years.23:02
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Lava_Croftfor me, wp7 is just an inbetween solution to keep shareholders happy23:03
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Lava_Crofta bit of sodomy is needed to survive23:03
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ShadowJKit'd be a solution if it actually sold :/23:05
Lava_Croftlooks like it need some more time23:06
Lava_Croftnokia alone can make more different kinds of phones than most of its competitors combined23:07
Lava_Croftlets just hope they flex their muscle23:07
Lava_Croftin a focussed way23:07
ShadowJKI don't think the strategy of making 19 different models, all with different cripplings, works very well in the long run :)23:07
ShadowJKalso MS needs to get their shit in order23:08
ShadowJKand it has the burden of carrying the ms and windows brand23:09
Lava_Croftwp7 isnt that bad of a start, but its still ms23:09
SpeedEvilhttp://www.eweek.com/c/a/Mobile-and-Wireless/Windows-Phone-7-Trumps-Apple-Android-ExMicrosoft-Exec-118038/23:09
Lava_Croftthey categorically dont really have their shit together mostly23:09
SpeedEvil. In November, IT research firm Gartner reported Windows Phone market share slid to 1.5 percent from the 2.7 percent share it secured a year earlier. Even more worrying for Microsoft, it fell behind Samsung's Bada operating system, which captured 2.2 percent of the market in the third quarter.23:09
ShadowJKI heard not even something as simple as minesweeper survives if you want to pause and do something else?23:10
Lava_Crofti heard i heard is stuff thats a bit meh23:10
Lava_Croftas is all this ms bashing, wp7 bashing and what not23:10
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Lava_Croftjust my very humble opinion of course23:11
* SpeedEvil wonders if there is any freedom-of-informationable source traking phone sales in the UK.23:11
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Lava_Crofthahaha23:12
Lava_Croftdreamer:D23:12
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ShadowJKI think the biggest damage MS did to their windows brand was when Vista got delayed, and then release while still shit. This resulted in people staying with xp for so long, that computer hardware actually caught up and became capable of running XP. Also when skipping Vista entirely, hardware went further and actually started to run xp quickly. So, when MS then forced people on to Windows 7, most normal people had such terrible experiences, both in terms o23:14
ShadowJKf user friendliness and performance, that just mentioning windows 7 makes them strangle innocent bystanders :/23:14
jacekowskiShadowJK: vista wasn't so bad23:16
jacekowskiShadowJK: 7 isn't that much better, but they handled marketing in much better way23:17
ShadowJKI still haven't seen a pc able to run Vista decently23:17
jacekowskiwell, marketing23:17
ShadowJK7 seems much better23:17
jacekowskivista will run any pc that runs 723:17
ShadowJKbut not well23:18
jacekowskiexactly the same way23:18
jacekowskiall they changed is cpu sheduler23:18
jacekowskiso system feels faster23:18
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ShadowJKwin7 seems to rape the harddrive less23:18
jacekowski( UI threads get better response time and stuff )23:19
jacekowskithat's because of automatic defragmentation23:20
jacekowskiand changed superfetch settings23:20
jacekowskithey didn't really changed any code,23:20
jacekowskimore like tweaked settings23:20
ShadowJKThe end result however is that for a normal user Vista becomes unusable slow in about 4 weeks. It seems vista accumulates a bunch of stuff it wants to do, and then tries to do it all at once on boot?23:21
jacekowskiyeah another thing they've added23:22
jacekowskidelayed start23:22
jacekowskifor services23:22
jacekowskiall non critical services are loaded after everything else is started23:22
jacekowskiwhich again, isn't major change but makes it look better23:22
ShadowJKAtleast Win7 seems to mostly stop raping hd if you try use the computer23:22
ShadowJKit's kinda funny when people with quadcore 4gigarams PCs buy an ipad and are amazed at how it can surf the web so much faster than their expensive PC :D23:27
jacekowskino flash23:28
jacekowskii'm using opera and everything works 10x as fast when i disable flash23:28
ShadowJKWell they measure it from pressing power button until pages display, and their PCs are never on long enough for all services/whatever finishing to load23:30
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DocScrutinizerit's probably enough to say that on "my" company a few thousand developers are still on XP23:42
DocScrutinizerand it seems we rather might get linux stations than wincrap_recent23:42
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DocScrutinizerand DEAR GOD I HATE IT every single day when on my 1280*1024 screen a requester opens size 120*180 with a treeview inside and two scrollbars to see top, bottem and whole lines to find what you search for, and there's NO DAMN WAY to resize that shit23:46
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DocScrutinizerworking on WinCrap you learn to love your KDE windows/desktop manager, with the nice "decorations" and windows context where you can enforce any arbitrary aspect regarding windows geometry and behaviour on any arbitrary window23:53
ShadowJKat $work there's software that refuses to be resized, minimized or maximized23:55
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ShadowJKif you accidentally click the minimize button it helpfully corrupts its databases23:56
ShadowJK(and then crashes)23:56
wmarone__that's some impressively bizzare behavior23:56
wmarone__I wonder how hard they worked to make it do that23:56
DocScrutinizerwindow too small? PFF, "minimum size", "enforce temporarily" "800 * 600"23:57
DocScrutinizerwmarone__: indeed :-P23:57
ShadowJKalso it has the X for closing window, but it's so buggy it can't be used. The software company added a "secret" word to type into one of the input boxes though, which causes a clean shutdown23:58
ShadowJKprint preview had so many side effects they had to disable it23:59
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