IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2011-09-17

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Sc0rpiusN8 is great hardware00:05
Sc0rpiusI hope somebody hack it to put Meego on it00:05
Sc0rpiusor something else00:05
AtariiI'm getting a tattoo of 'N900 Fo Life'00:09
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ShadowJKN8 doesn't meet MeeGo's minimum CPU requirements :-)00:11
jacekowskiand it has no fmtx00:11
Ans5in9 is sweet00:20
ShadowJKI guess it'd be cool, but I want more of a smartphone and less of a featurephone thing :)00:20
Ans5ihackhackphone :)00:21
Ans5ibut n9 is quite hackable00:21
Ans5ibut is it smart.. hm00:22
Ans5iit has smart features00:22
* NIN101 whispers: aegis00:22
Ans5ii probably lack perspective :)00:22
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Ans5ismart is safe00:23
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Ans5iwell... safe IS smart00:24
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DocScrutinizerSc0rpius: no way to get meego on N8 aiui00:25
DocScrutinizerAns5i: define "safe" (I admit I've stolen this stanza from a guy called djszapi ;-D)00:27
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DocScrutinizerAns5i: if you're referring to aegis regarding this "safe" thing, let me tell you a secret: aegis isn't about safety, at least not about what *you* would consider safety00:29
Ans5iDocScrutinizer... let's see. if i accidentally get robbed, i don't really want my data to end up to wrong place.00:30
DocScrutinizerso you think aegis is helping on that? hahahaha *cough* sorry00:30
Ans5iafaik there is secure filesystem00:30
DocScrutinizerand how's that helping on your device getting stolen and somebody reading out this secure filesystem same way you do?00:31
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Ans5ipassword, i would guess :)00:31
DocScrutinizerbtw cryptofs is nothing we need aegis for, it's been around for eons00:32
DocScrutinizerAns5i: you're evidently a victim of MSSF PR BS00:33
Ans5ii think it was called aegisfs00:33
ShadowJKSmart once upon a time meant to me being able to get stuff done :)00:33
DocScrutinizeror more generally TC PR00:33
DocScrutinizerAns5i: so what?00:33
DocScrutinizerAns5i: if I call myself jesus, will you pray to me?00:34
MohammadAG<jacekowski> and it has no fmtx00:34
MohammadAGN8? it does00:34
Ans5iwell, i haven't use cryptofs00:34
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MohammadAGthey replaced "FM Transmitter" with "Play via Radio"00:34
MohammadAGwhich I found very confusing00:34
DocScrutinizerAns5i: see:00:34
DocScrutinizer~aegis00:34
infobotaegis is, like, http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif00:34
DocScrutinizer"The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment."00:35
DocScrutinizernot about your safety, about the safety of third party IP00:35
ShadowJKand like, now it seems like there'd be about same amount of pain or more to hack N9 as to hack random android handset into usability, with aegis and the dumbing down of the interfaces :) Oh and lack of keyboard... seems like a general trend :( Oh well, Samsung Note might be tolerable, with that extra screen real estate they might be able to make a decently sized vkb, and maybe also fit some context about what you're typing onscreen at the same itme..00:35
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Ans5iDocScrutinizer, not bad thing considering all the spy/malware.00:36
DocScrutinizerhahaha00:36
DocScrutinizeryeah sure, you get the spy/malware from ovistore, and it will use aegis to make sure no community written virus checker interferes with whatever it likes to do00:37
ShadowJKMost of the malware I see on people's computers these days come from one of the top-20 technology companies :)00:37
ShadowJKSony comes to mind00:38
Ans5ilet me paste too. "AegisFS is a FUSE-based cryptographic file system which implements virtual directories implemented as protected stores. This enables transparent integrity and confidentiality protection of ordinary files without the needing to use proprietary API"00:38
ShadowJKThat's a cool idea, but do they really need to lock down everything else just to have that? If so, it's too big of a cost I think00:39
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ShadowJKYeah and if I want to load a kernel module, so I can connect to a vpn, so I can access my email, there's theoretically a chance that the kernel module is tainted and starts accessing the internals of the crypto subsystem and compromises it, I guess =/00:41
Ans5iso far creator has created tokens automatically for those very simple apps that i've made.00:41
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DocScrutinizerAns5i: nice. And now google for cryptofs please00:41
tomreynhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zx8qdVs7Ug http://nin101.uni.cx/N900/crypto/encrypted_home/00:41
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tomreynhttps://gitorious.org/maemo5-encrypted-home/maemo5-encrypted-home00:42
DocScrutinizertomreyn: thanks :-)00:43
tomreynust passing on what NIN101 told me earlier today ;)00:43
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tomreyn*i'm just00:43
MohammadAGis that an emergency call button?00:45
MohammadAGoh, skip, nevermind00:45
DocScrutinizerisn't it incredible how you can sell arbitrary BS to users, simply by adding a few old well known features and labeling them same way as the rest of your crap?00:45
ShadowJKNow, a really cool feature would be message encryption that didn't mysteriously fail as soon as some random dudes wants it to fail00:46
* ShadowJK looks at RIM00:46
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MohammadAG00:47
MohammadAGecho "/what/me/worry" > /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern00:47
MohammadAGriight...00:47
DocScrutinizer""WinP7-charger: A software that takes care about your phone's battery and manages to get the longest possible operation time from it" - HEY COOL SHIT! let's go for WinP7, it has a special software designed to give *AWESOME* standby time. Probably even helps when your device gets stolen ;-P00:48
ShadowJKSo if we could get a tun/tap module loaded we could run arbitrary traffic and instant messengers over the TOR network, our data encrypted over the internet until it emerges from some random exitnode, but oh wait aegis says NO :P00:48
Ans5icryptofs seems to be gpl and aegis lgpl00:48
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DocScrutinizerHOORAY!!!!00:48
* MohammadAG starts backporting aegis to the N90000:48
nid0DocScrutinizer, fact is it works when people dont know these features exist. Symbian and Apple both prove this perfectly00:49
MohammadAGusers need protection from bash00:49
* DocScrutinizer shoots MohammadAG00:49
MohammadAGbackport finished, let's deploy it in the CSSU00:49
nid0Symbian has had a boatload of features for nearly a decade that other smartphones are recently adding but that nokia never sold well, and Apple managed to palm off features that've existed forever by relabelling and advertising that theyre there00:49
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, my DevN900's bme wanted to shutdown at 45% battery remaining the other day. Shutdown bme, start my own battery management software. I recovered that last 40% extra runtime! Genuinely, not like those fake Symbian/android/WP7 apps. This is of course also not possible on N9 with aegis in place :P00:50
MohammadAGagreed00:50
MohammadAGUSB OTG is not interesting to users00:50
MohammadAGif apple did it'd be named something fancy00:50
ShadowJKUSB² or perhaps U²00:51
ShadowJK:)00:51
DocScrutinizerhey, on maemo we see same now: aegisfs ;-P00:52
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DocScrutinizerso aegis is a good thing - it's giving safety back to user - see, there's aegisfs - <quote of above> <bla bla>00:53
MohammadAGShadowJK, you can stop bme on the N900:53
MohammadAGyou just can't start any sane power management software00:53
ShadowJKBut then you lose battery state tracking and safe shutdown? :-)00:53
DocScrutinizerlol00:53
ShadowJKright00:53
MohammadAGjust wondering00:54
nid0on a brighter subject, I really like my touchpad <300:54
MohammadAGis the TPM chip inside the SoC or on the board somewhere?00:54
MohammadAGI'm interested in knowing what would happen if someone f's that chip00:54
javispedroyou can test that on qemu00:55
ShadowJKit's a soc feature I believe00:55
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ShadowJKYou know I actually predicted that bme would freak out at about 40-50% and go from showing 40% remaining to showing 0% remaining, thanks to data gathered by SpeedEvil's awesome ohm "battery profiling" script :-)00:56
javispedrothey basically use both the ARM stuff and a BB5.00:56
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SpeedEvilShadowJK: bad battery?00:56
ShadowJKbme should like adjust it's new 0 to be at the old 40%, or yell at me to get a new battery (but oh wait, can't do that with N9 either)00:57
MohammadAGShadowJK, guesstimate, shutdown when you feel you've lost your battery :p00:57
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, it's less than a year old! :)00:57
SpeedEvil:/00:58
MohammadAGI hate how you have to pry open the N900:58
MohammadAGand the battery is similar to those on cordless phones00:58
javispedromore like "destroy"00:58
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: inside SoC00:58
MohammadAGjavispedro, nah, I'm guessing it's rubbery00:58
ShadowJKI saw photonicinduction on youtube trying to destroy a "body massager" with his hammer. I wonder if that's the same material the N9 is made out of00:59
MohammadAGisn't polycarbonate essential plastic-y?01:00
nid0yeah01:00
ShadowJKIt's plastic01:00
MohammadAGso why call it polycarbonate?01:00
ShadowJKMarketing!01:00
javispedroit has got electrolytes!01:01
nid0because it sounds better than saying plastic, and its a better quality material than your average typical plastic01:01
SpeedEvilIt does have carbon in01:01
DocScrutinizerpolycarbonate is a rather special "plastic"01:01
SpeedEvilAlso - poly = polymer - carbonate ad it's a polymer of carboante groups01:01
SpeedEvilcarbonate01:01
MohammadAGI'd love a carbon fibre phone01:01
SpeedEvilFun fact.01:01
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SpeedEvilPolycarbonate is made from two gasses both of which are chemical warfare agents.01:02
DocScrutinizerit's used e.g for all sorts of vending machines, as it's basically unbreakable and not destroyable by fire. Just gets black and bubbly01:02
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, so the N9 won't be sold to arabs in israel?01:03
nid0its also used for aircraft windscreens/cockpit bubbles, riot shields, and plenty of other applications due to being really hard to break01:03
MohammadAGI hope it takes dents better the N950 then01:03
DocScrutinizeralso bullet proof glass is made of layers of silcicondioxide based true glass and layers of polycarbonate, afaik01:03
ShadowJKisn't N950 aluminium?01:04
DocScrutinizernope01:04
ShadowJKoh01:04
MohammadAGmore like plastic01:04
javispedroN950 is made of scratchium01:04
MohammadAGthe bad kind01:04
MohammadAGthe N900's body was better imo01:04
javispedroit attracts scratches01:05
MohammadAGit attracts the floor for me01:05
MohammadAGit likes to make new friends too01:05
MohammadAGit met concrete tiles and carpet01:05
ShadowJKN810 formfactor, get rid of the metal door, make slider mechanism as awesome as on N900 -> awesomeness01:05
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ShadowJKOh, the Mugen 2400 back door for N900, it's made out of a plastic that feels more rubbery than the N900 plastic. I quite liked it, because it felt like I had a secure grip of the phone01:06
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MohammadAGthe N950 is slippery01:06
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DocScrutinizerplus N950 basically has a terrible hwkbd: 42 key (N900: 38) but not really any better accessibility as key caps are flat on flat, while N900 (and N810) key caps are convex01:24
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DocScrutinizernobody really likes flat top keycaps - they don't allow for "automatic" tactile feedback to center to the middle of the keys01:26
ShadowJKMy E75 has flat keys too, but there's enough space between the keys that it kinda works01:27
ShadowJKand it's not glossy smooth so you don't slip off the keys01:27
DocScrutinizerif there wasn't that small trench between the keys it was virtually impossible to type blindly01:27
ShadowJKE75 has "trench" too01:28
ShadowJKthough it took like 2-3 weeks to adjust to it01:28
DocScrutinizermy M800 eten kbd was like that - unbearable01:28
ShadowJKin some ways the E75 keyboard is better than N810, and in some ways better than N90001:30
ShadowJKsometimes in emergencies all I've had left working has been E75, and discovered that typing in iptabels and route commmands with IP addresses in putty on it has been easier than on N900 :P01:31
SpeedEvilShadowJK: the vkbd is actually easier01:32
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ShadowJKI hate waiting for it to appear :P01:33
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ShadowJKand then the time it takes to correct typos done with vkb kills the remaining time benefit :/01:34
* ShadowJK is somewhat better on the N800 stylus vkbd using thumbs01:34
ShadowJKmaybe because on N800 the touch layer is so so much closer to the display layer?01:35
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ShadowJKlike I'm aiming for the actual letter, and thumb hits the touch window further up away from the letter than I expected, and ends up in the wrong place?01:36
ShadowJKand the exact "offset" between touch and display varies depending on the angle you hold N900 in, which for me varies depending on whether I stand, sit, lay down, etc :/01:38
DocScrutinizerhmm, the max parallax error I can detect on N900 screen is ~1mm01:40
DocScrutinizerdunno if that could cause noticeable problems with vkbd01:40
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ShadowJKIt's not the parallax per se that messes me up01:43
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ShadowJKit's more that when I look at hte contents and don't see the surface, I'm fingers hit the screen much earlier than I planned and haven't reached their correct horizontal position yet?01:44
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ShadowJKin daylight I'm probably better on N900 vkb, in darker ambient I do much better on N800 vkb01:47
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DocScrutinizeryeah that may well confuse your motorics01:47
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* nox- just saw http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2011-September/004501.html03:41
nox-:(03:41
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luke-jrGary = lcuk?03:47
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nox-i only knew him from here...03:48
SpeedEvilluke-jr: yes. :/03:48
luke-jranyone know what happened? :/03:49
SpeedEvilReportedly suicide.03:49
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nox-:(03:49
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luke-jrouch03:49
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SpeedEvilHe always seemed to have fresh ideas.03:50
SpeedEvilSometimes ideas aren't good ones.03:50
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crashanddie_Please note that I say this with all the love and friendship I have for him: The last thing lcuk was talking about that dreadful night was messing about with Visual Studio. It's official, Microsoft's products finally pushed someone over the edge.08:39
crashanddie_(Re SpeedEvil & luke-jr)08:39
luke-jr08:40
luke-jrlcuk's liqbase was all based on Visual Basic last I heard08:40
crashanddie_Hardly, he was a VB dev, so you can't blame him, he actually had a few code generators that would allow him to translate VB objects into C, IIRC.08:41
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crashanddie_But there was a very conscious choice as to why he never tried writing it in VB, and only started out when he could do C on the tablet.08:41
RST38hHey, he could not get VB on his tablet even if he wanted to!08:42
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RST38h"Native Client taps the hardware's rarely-used "segment registers" to restrict where a program can read and write data in memory and to make sure the program doesn't jump to code outside a certain memory range. Plus, it uses a modified compiler and a code verifier that restrict code jumps."09:14
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derf...09:23
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MohammadAGare the mods MIA with all the spam or something?10:30
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Atariispamcity on the forums today11:09
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psycho_oreosspam is almost wiped out11:57
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internetishardyou guys ever have issues making calls or connections even when 3G bars are available because the battery is low?12:59
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psycho_oreoshow low is low?13:08
jiero a 25 years old man who is 1.6m tall13:11
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psycho_oreoshuh13:16
MohammadAGgrr13:18
MohammadAGwhy does an MWidget's destructor segfault my app13:18
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userhow can i expand storage for app install in diablo ?13:27
useranyone13:27
useri mean expand using sd card13:27
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RST38hMohammad: probably deletes some child widget, twice13:32
RST38hMohammad: Sure you have not deleted any widgets *after* passing their ownership to MWidget in question?13:33
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RST38hOr maybe you created some widgets on stack(i.e. no "new") and then passed them to your MWidget ?13:33
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MohammadAGRST38h, right now I'm not deleting anything in that widget manually13:51
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Estel_hello there14:26
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psycho_oreoshi14:28
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ErwinJungehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_66KAOzXhU --> I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure the N900 is now the only phone with EEG functionality :) Hooray for h-e-n!15:17
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psycho_oreosugh, its not a phone15:21
DocScrutinizerWOW15:21
ErwinJungeThe headset they're using is only $299! http://emotiv.com/store/hardware/epoc-bci/epoc-neuroheadset/15:21
ErwinJungeI so enormously want one of those now. Think of the possibilities!15:21
MohammadAGI'm impressed15:23
psycho_oreosPossibilities are endless but in its current stage, all the programs made available seems to be at an infancy stage15:23
psycho_oreosUSD$299 only if you lived in the US fyi15:24
jieropsycho_oreos:  today I was listening to Mix106.5 using Radio, and a call came in, but the dialer actually start to listen the radio instead of me!15:24
jierolol15:24
psycho_oreosjiero, Mix106.5? never heard of that radio station.15:25
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MohammadAGmaking a Qt API for that brain thingy shouldn't be hard15:25
MohammadAGwhat's the picture viewer? does it paint pictures from your head or do you simply select photos from a list by thinking about them?15:25
psycho_oreosthe latter MohammadAG15:26
ErwinJungeI'm guessing select photo by thinking15:26
jieropsycho_oreos:  http://player.arn.com.au/mix1065.aspx15:26
MohammadAGpfft15:26
MohammadAGI wanted a brain QPaintEngine15:26
ErwinJungeThe biggest challange is probably mapping the EEG patterns to specific actions15:26
psycho_oreosjiero, bleh that's gonna chew me monthly quota lol15:27
MohammadAGwhat if I'm like15:27
Estel_Hey, I would be surprised if current software for it can detect "left/right" without problems, not to mention thinking about certain photo15:27
MohammadAGFFS I so wanna rm -rf /* when I'm pissed at the phone15:27
RST38hMohammad: Except it may not be doing exactly what they say it is doing15:27
Estel_at worst it would interpret this as "back" button ;P15:28
RST38hTrue15:28
psycho_oreosI really don't think the `app' is capable of picking up what you want to see in a photo to actually be shown on the screen, here is one of the `apps': http://emotiv.com/store/apps/applications/118/58215:28
Estel_Really, detecting brainwave patterns by such a devices and soft for it is pre-infant.15:28
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Estel_I would not even call it pre-natal15:29
jieropsycho_oreos: ;) I mostly use radio, but with wifi, I prefer the Internet streaming. wifi is cheap. um, I just hope one day everywhere would be like Hong Kong, sim with nearly free wifi.15:29
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psycho_oreosjiero, someday it'll happen in .au, someday with the great firewall of aust in the mix15:29
maraineinis it possible to detect electrical activity in the brain remotely? with some sort of antenna?15:29
Estel_As for wifi I agree, just don't bring us integration with China in 2058 *cough*15:29
nid0left/right has been doable for years, I had an OCZ NIA like 3 years ago that with like 15 minutes practise could get pretty decent accuracy thinking left/right15:30
psycho_oreosmarainein, no, brain signals are far too weak to be picked up by an antenna that's not directly connected to a person's head15:30
SpeedEvilmarainein: Technically, yes15:30
SpeedEvilmarainein: Practically no.15:30
Estel_nid0 - true. That's why I've said "hardly"15:30
SpeedEvilYou can pick up signals in a completely shielded room, using exotic cryogenic detectors.15:31
maraineinare we ever likely to see advances that change that? would room temperature superconductors help, for instance?15:31
SpeedEvilNot really.15:31
Estel_I wait for bwtx15:31
Estel_brainwave transmitter ;)15:31
SpeedEvilYou can't pick it up without the shielding.15:31
nid0Estel_: I think looking at what you said, the word "hardly" is the word you actually missed from your sentence15:31
psycho_oreosjiero, I've tried wifi radio streaming once, it was so laggy with higher bitrate audio streams that I gave up listening to live streams.. I prefer to record them to be pre-recorded so I don't have to deal with lag nonsense15:31
Estel_nid0 true :) I've said "surpriaed if without problems"15:32
psycho_oreosEstel_, with the help of nanobots yes ;)15:32
ErwinJungemarainein: Why would you even want that? In such a world tinfoil hats would actually make sense... I for one would not want someone to be able to remotely read my brainwaves15:32
psycho_oreosErwinJunge, could help with women you know :015:32
Estel_no worries, brainwaves are quite easily adaptable15:32
psycho_oreosthey like to know if you're cheating on them ;)15:32
ErwinJungeHaha :)15:32
Estel_You can make You "patterns" more constant by practicing existing device15:33
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maraineinaww, c'mon - if every inventor stopped to think about the social consequences of their inventions, where would the world be?15:33
Estel_so, in times of brainwave remote antennas, "mind blocking" would be real trait15:33
Estel_not one from rpg15:33
psycho_oreosthat's why hobbyist devices never reach mainstream.. its because of all the `societal consequences' really15:34
Estel_marainen - probably non-existing or Rapture-like15:34
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* Estel_ is making obvious Systemshock/Bioshock refference15:34
* psycho_oreos has never played that before15:34
maraineindo electrical fields fall off in a gradient? what if i had an array of electrodes?15:34
Estel_test it and tell us, then write open API for it15:35
Estel_don't go closed source! ;)15:35
psycho_oreoslike what these mobs did -_-15:35
* Estel_ is suggesting oreos to start with Systen Schock 2, not newest Bioshock15:36
* psycho_oreos is referring to EPOC15:36
maraineinsure, it's not like having exclusive mind reading powers would be useful15:36
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* Estel_ think that future will really bring extension of out-of-lab telepathic "powers"15:37
* psycho_oreos is trying to not get addicted into gaming, for once he has experienced of `falling into hell hole and meeting with the satan himself'.15:37
* Estel_ is thinking that if oreos keep away from crappy as whole MMO genre, he will be fine15:37
Estel_BTW, I always wanted to prepare semi-fake video with playing Witcher 2 on N900 (via remote desktop ;) )15:39
Estel_then posting it in Youtube15:39
Estel_or even better, prepare another with some Ishit, post it on Ishit forum, then start gathering donations for the project *cough* *cough*15:40
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ErwinJungeHaha, good luck convincing people that it's real though. Maybe you should add some unlimited detail ;)15:40
psycho_oreosmind reading is quite interesting, imagine where people no longer will get RSI from using mouse all the time.. or a stylus or even having to use limbs all that much :) Its all battle in the brain. I mean you can imagine it would be convenient too to be able to communicate using just brain waves, and in the field of proving innocence or guilty, one no longer needs to go through excessive amounts of paperwork, it'll be polygraph reinvented15:41
* psycho_oreos tells Estel_ its not a good idea to get involved in any sort of big games, period ;) even with the ones that does `grinding' which loads of games these days does.15:41
* Estel_ is already involved :(15:42
Estel_psycho_oreos,  good point15:42
* ErwinJunge points psycho_oreos at minecraft and casually strolls away15:43
psycho_oreoshahaha you're not alone :) I could get rid of my minor gaming addiction even though I've been burnt by it one stage.. its like any addiction really15:43
Estel_although I'll not opt for using something like that in law system15:43
* psycho_oreos tells ErwinJunge he knows full well about minecraft, its like the new hype like every other game15:43
Estel_true, everything can be addiction15:43
Estel_some more pleasant than others.15:43
psycho_oreosEstel_, I've seen a tv show I believe where they had a mind reader tool which they used to dive into a person's mind. Interesting however15:44
* Estel_ is thinking about what other things he is thinking, and how it looks as brainwave matrix15:44
psycho_oreosI don't think there's that much of pleasurement that can be measured in a tangible form from an external point of view really15:44
psycho_oreospleasure from being addicted into something.. everyone has differing views really15:45
Estel_fortunatelly, pleasure, feelings, emotions, are not objectively measureable15:45
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Estel_hey, there is thin line between pleasure from doing somethiing, to being addicted to it psychically15:45
psycho_oreosdefinitely not when one is benefitting it from having experienced15:46
Estel_chemical addiction is different thing, though,15:46
psycho_oreoslol15:46
Estel_I know, I know ;)15:46
Estel_BTW, all discussion of mind readings bring me thinking about Lucid Dreaming15:47
psycho_oreossleepanalyser?15:47
psycho_oreos:)15:47
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Estel_thats one hell of interesting subject15:47
Estel_hehe I've heard that some people use it to aid inmLucid Dreaming15:47
ErwinJungeThis would hook in very well with sleepanalyser actually, since instead of measuring movement, you could measure the actual brainwaves...15:47
ErwinJungeSleeping with the headset would suck though15:47
Estel_this is fascinnating topic, really.15:48
Estel_Would You imagine that when in Dream, and You realize that You're dreaming, You can keep being asleep by spinning around (in dream)?15:49
DocScrutinizerErwinJunge: many thanks for sharing this awesome story15:49
Estel_adrenaline rush from realizing that You're dreaming can wake You up, and spinning around keep mind occupied and ease it15:50
psycho_oreosI looked at the photos of EPOC headset.. I can't imagine anyone would be able to sleep with that sort of headset strapped around them. Mind you I've gone through sleep clinic one stage and with wires hanging from my head it was already awkward enough for me to sleep let alone placing ear muffs on me head and sleeping with it :)15:50
Estel_when You spin in dream, You're really feeling it, even body reactions are same.15:50
Estel_brain ones too15:50
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* Estel_ is thinking if anyone here is addicted to Neil Gaiman books/comics like Estel15:52
psycho_oreoswell pain receptors can be faked ;)15:52
Estel_true, but spinning actually is quite complicated15:52
psycho_oreoserr the pain from the pain receptors.. afterall the brain is responsible for listening to issues from the body :p15:52
* psycho_oreos recalls of painkillers and how they basically work :)15:52
Estel_not to mention such complex things as tasting, smeeling or sexual feelings.15:53
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Estel_exactly15:53
psycho_oreosits all the weird and wonderful things that the brain is capable of15:53
Estel_yea... Explain why in Dreaming, time goes in different pace15:54
Estel_I mean that, when researches working with lucid dreamers15:54
psycho_oreoshah as if I'd know the answer to that question :)15:54
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Estel_did interesting experiment15:54
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Estel_as eyes are only one part of body that is 100% active and do same things that we're doing during dreaming15:55
psycho_oreosI guess time goes at a different pace when we're sleeping anyway, it just seems like the whole state we're being immersed into (during sleep of course) is similar to that of being intoxicated.. Everything seems to go slow yet the scene sporadically changes at a rapid pace during REM15:55
Estel_they agreed to move their eyes in specific pattern, indicating time15:55
Estel_every second, the did "eye pattern"15:56
Estel_for every Lucid dreamer, their second was 1,6 second of "real" time15:56
Estel_I wonder if it depends on ambient conditions? if it is same for group of people nearby15:57
Estel_maybe they're communicating somehow? ;)15:57
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Estel_MAG, write us program for it15:57
Estel_Pali, we want kernel module for that ;P15:58
psycho_oreos*shrugs* don't know.. but then that would also be related to six point six degrees of separation :)15:58
Estel_haha15:58
PaliEstel_: what?15:58
Estel_bwtx, barinwave transmitter15:58
Estel_I want to put HEN upgrade into MAG dreams15:59
Estel_or pull source code from it15:59
psycho_oreoso.O15:59
Estel_(from dreams)15:59
* psycho_oreos thinks MAG wouldn't want his ideas to be made that visible :p16:00
Estel_hey, musicians often dream of some music and write it after awakening16:00
Estel_I wonder if it apply for source code solutions ;)16:00
psycho_oreosmusic is different, it relies on creative thinking.. coding is abstract and would require more logic thinking than creative :)16:01
* psycho_oreos imagines a creative only side of thinking would result in a very weird sort of code :p16:01
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: ( was already awkward enough for me to sleep) Geishas sleep with their head on a small wooden "seat", not to mess up their hair. I think humans can adapt to almost anything16:02
psycho_oreosthe logic side of the brain would see and think `wtf?'16:02
Estel_somehow true. On the other hand, Einstein said he was dreaming about his research many times, and everything was much easier inside Dreamland. He even told that few things he remembered helped him in actual research.16:02
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, yeah its doable but that's because its a practise since maybe at young age :) Its not the same as say me telling you to start driving to work in reverse gear for the nest 3 days :)16:03
psycho_oreoss/nest/next/16:03
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: DocScrutinizer, yeah its doable but that's because its a practise since maybe at young age :) Its not the same as say me telling you to start driving to work in reverse gear for the next 3 days :)16:03
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: I have no problems driving reverse gear all the time, just hurts a bit in the neck16:03
Estel_Yea. Prisoners in North Korea, or some China prisons (or USA terrorist prisons, reportedly) tends to sleep in worse conditions, even16:04
DocScrutinizer(hurts) after 30..60min :-P16:04
psycho_oreosI mean heck, there was also the case where with Japanese women were made to wear wooden stool like shoes with some sort of toe binding16:04
Estel_at least when they are allowed to sleep ;)16:04
RST38hChinese, not Japanese16:05
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, sounds like you've been practising ;)16:05
psycho_oreosRST38h, my bad :)16:05
RST38htoe binding is chinese, wooden shoes (gota?) is japanese16:05
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: I actually did. The worst thing is drive dynamics of the car at high reverse speeds16:06
Estel_little more thinking about cruelty in world, and I'm gona emigrate to moon :(16:06
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  out of curiosity, why You did it?16:06
DocScrutinizerbecause it was hard16:06
RST38hKennedy almost approved a project to nuke the moon16:06
DocScrutinizer:-P16:06
Estel_DocScrutinizer,  haha right. so, also out of curiosity ;)16:07
Estel_RST38h,  haha true.16:07
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, not to mention one could rev the poor tits off the engine due to very low gear ratio :)16:07
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RST38hhttp://www.cracked.com/article/153_nuke-moon-5-certifiably-insane-cold-war-projects/16:07
DocScrutinizerwell, the Kennedy reference came just in time :-D16:07
psycho_oreosI've done driving in reverse but not for long distances.. like maybe only 20-30metres at most16:08
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DocScrutinizer(I'll be driving in reverse gear end of this day, and I'll do it at high speed and without accident, not because it's simple but because it's hard)16:09
psycho_oreospractise makes perfect ;)16:09
psycho_oreosI'm sure defensive/stunt driving courses would teach one how to also drive in reverse along with many other maneuvres16:10
DocScrutinizersometime reverse-gear superpowers can save your live16:10
psycho_oreoslolwut16:10
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psycho_oreosI only know rear wheel drive's super power can actually save people's lives if they knew how to harness it but not with reverse gear16:11
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Estel_RST38h,  thanks for that link about cold war humour16:24
Estel_I laughed my *** off16:24
Estel_... except for fact that it's true.16:25
Estel_BTW, I'm no fan of conspiracy theories, but I'm indeed in doubt if they ever landed on moon16:25
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Estel_not because goddamnit idiotic topic of flag. Rather by looking at close-ups of video with jumping astronauts, and dust from their feets acting like in atmoapheric conditions, flying around and landing much later that astronaut itself.16:27
Estel_+ the fact that even now, we're getting troubles to successfully send someone to moon.16:27
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Estel_Well, at least faking moon-landing video is better than nuking it16:28
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DocScrutinizerlol, priceless >>Nobody saw a problem with it--except President Kennedy, who thankfully realized the implications of Northwood (i.e. that punching yourself in the face as an excuse to punch somebody else in the face was not a valid military strategy) and ultimately rejected it. Most of the documents involving Operation Northwoods were de-classified in 1997, and are now serving out their life-sentences as conspiracy theorist porn all across16:34
DocScrutinizerthe Internet.<<16:34
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Estel_yea16:39
Estel_actually, many americans belive that WTC was inside-job, lol16:40
Estel_believe*16:40
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DocScrutinizerI also believe it was an inside-job, my plot is somewhat more subtle though. I mean we'll never know how many CIA undercover agents supported Bin Laden in which ways for how long16:41
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tomreynmore and more info keeps leaking about ties between 3-letter agencies, saudi families in the US, whom they evacuated shortly before 9/11, and those families ties with the hijackers, though.16:44
Estel_interesting.16:44
Estel_especially that good'old'osama was CIA friend from old times, at least until he told them to fo16:45
DocScrutinizerthey evidently had good info about 9-11 coming, and what bin laden planned to do. They preferred to ignore it16:45
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RST38hDoc <-- talked to pupnik too much16:47
RST38hInside job? What inside job?16:47
tomreynRST38h: http://www.democracynow.org/2011/9/15/former_senator_bob_graham_urges_obama16:47
RST38hNo, I mean, the followup DEFINITELY was the inside job, but not the act itself16:47
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RST38htomreyn: <yawn>16:48
RST38hhttp://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-913-ten-years-on-and-a-long-way-down/16:48
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maraineini love war nerd. he's such a spite filled jerk16:59
tomreynRST38h: so unless i missed something important, this 'war nerd' guy is basically saying that the general idea of using airplanes to attack buildings is simple, thus whoever claims that it is a complex maneuver to plan and carry out such an attack in the U.S. when you're coming from a very different place on earth is irrelevant.17:04
tomreynthe link i posted is about some apparently proovable (I have not tried) facts which suggest that there has been a high degree of cooperation between a few saudi families and the attackers on the one hand, and these families and the three-letter agencies on the other hand just prior to 9/11.17:07
tomreynso I don't understand why the 'war nerd' article would be a suitable response.17:08
tomreynif anyone is annoyed by this topic being discussed here, just say so, it surely is off-topic...17:08
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jonnewhat's the procedure again for making skype work again?17:12
jonnecan't find it online for some reason, but i think it involved deleting a folder17:13
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DocScrutinizerwork *again*?? (SCNR)17:17
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jonneit stopped working like a week ago, without me changing anything17:18
jonneso i deleted the account and tried readding it again17:19
jonnebut that's not working at all17:19
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jonneor maybe skyp is just broken in general? Nobody seems to be online on my desktop skype17:22
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jonnei think i'll just reflash the phone17:33
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RST38hSo, is t.m.o finally dead?19:19
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texasmynstedI have a bunch of double quote characters in my address book.  What is the best way to either export and re-import my contacts, or to somehow direct edit the address book in vi or something?19:27
RST38hit is in an sqlite database19:27
texasmynstedthat is almost too good to be true.  :-)19:28
texasmynstedis it password protected or anything?19:28
texasmynstedwhere is it stored19:28
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RST38hTargus to release new WiFi PAN-equipped Laser Mouse this September <== WTF?19:32
nid0whats confusing about it19:39
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texasmynstedany link to more information about accessing the sqlite database with the contacts?19:41
RST38hgoogle, no?19:42
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texasmynstedNot yet.19:43
texasmynstedI found links, but nothing helpful19:43
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texasmynstedwhat is the best way to remove double quotes from all contacts?20:23
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eichiI want to buy a sd card for n900 for easier install dualboot things. which kind of sd can I use?20:25
jacekowskiany kind of microsd20:26
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eichiokay thanks20:31
nox-you might like a faster one tho :)20:31
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eichinox-: means?20:39
texasmynstedfaster might be better if you want to use the sdmicro card as your store for pictures.20:39
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nox-yeah for example20:39
eichiI want to install meego for developing and maybe meego using some day20:40
texasmynstedi.e. when writing to the sdmicro from a camer app, faster is often better20:40
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eichi         Transcend Transcend MicroSDHC Class 6 8GB ?20:42
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nox-that should do it20:43
eichiclass 10 maybe does not work?20:44
eichithere is a kingston class 10 also available20:44
nox-dunno, you'd `think' it should work tho20:45
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: (contacts) isn't that a berkley DB?20:50
DocScrutinizerI'd go for sandisk whenever possible20:53
DocScrutinizertexasmynsted: export to vcard, edit by <Ur_fav_editor>, re-import20:53
nox-sandisk better than transcend?20:55
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texasmynstedok.20:56
DocScrutinizerhmm, I just know sandisk is like always-OK20:56
texasmynstedthat worked, thank you20:56
DocScrutinizeryw20:56
texasmynstedthink it is sqlite320:57
texasmynstedthough can't seem to find a way to connect to it via sqlite3 command line app20:57
texasmynstedbut export/import worked20:57
DocScrutinizer(can't seem to find a way to connect to it via sqlite3) maybe because it's berkley ;-)20:59
DocScrutinizerI have a deja vu regarding this, seems it's not the first time somebody tries to connect to it via sqlite3 and gives up finally. I mean, when even barisione reverted to using vcard ex/import instead of direct access (iirc)21:01
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DocScrutinizerhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=6052621:03
DocScrutinizerhttp://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=791359&postcount=921:05
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DocScrutinizerhttp://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=791451&postcount=1221:07
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psycho_oreosthere was an issue with class 10 with errors being spewed out from the kernel. Users with stock kernel or kernel-power47 (or older) will be affected unless they have applied the class 10 patch21:13
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DocScrutinizer~hail nicolai21:14
* infobot bows down to nicolai and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!"21:14
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog"21:15
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ErwinJungeTopic changes should really come with a diff21:17
psycho_oreoseichi, I'd recommend buying reputable brands that declare lifetime warranty on said products, buy microSDHC cards from well known stores prevents any potential chances in you getting a microSDHC card with false readings on capacities. Also, there's tools like f3 (linux only) which can test to see if the microSDHC card you bought has indeed its stated capacity rather than having fake label and as a result fake capacity output.21:22
psycho_oreosugh.. s/buy/buying/21:22
ErwinJungeHm.. readin the sources thing on the wiki, I found this snippet:21:23
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ErwinJungeReasons for closed packages: "bme - Battery Management Entity: Security. A misuse of the could lead to serious battery damages that could result in liabilities for Nokia."21:24
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ErwinJungeBecause people reverse engineering and tinkering with partial guesswork is much safer than giving them the sourcecode..21:24
ErwinJungeI understand it will never be opened, just think the reason is pure BS21:25
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DocScrutinizerErwinJunge: that's been discussed ad nauseum and bottom line is Nokia probably has no (C) in bme code, and also sees no benefit in opening it up21:25
DocScrutinizeryes, that reason is mere BS21:26
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DocScrutinizersame BS as the supposed highly evolved sekrit IP in bme21:27
ErwinJungeProbably, although maybe that links in to battery sales?21:29
DocScrutinizertruth seems to be: bme is a stinking can of worms nobody @ nokia wants to touch21:29
ErwinJungeSomehow that seems all the more reason to just release it and let the community clean it up21:30
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DocScrutinizermissing (C)21:38
DocScrutinizer(just rumours)21:38
ErwinJungeWhat do you mean?21:39
DocScrutinizerbut see a lot of stuff done by e.g. Collabora which also probably couldn't get opensourced by Nokia even if they'd like to21:40
DocScrutinizerErwinJunge: I mean Nokia paying subcontractors for writing closed source stuff for them, and then Nokia can't just go "hey, we put this into FOSS now"21:41
DocScrutinizerpossibly the (C) is still by the subcontractor and Nokia just may "use" it21:41
ErwinJungeAh, yeah, that makes sense21:44
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DocScrutinizerI've been told by sources that should know that Nokia seems to have no inhouse competence regarding bme (at least fremantle bme)21:47
DocScrutinizerand a definitive statement is "looking at bme sources makes bleed your eyes and want to to rip them out"21:49
ErwinJungeWell, that wouldn't be a first for me (and probably none of us)21:49
DocScrutinizeryou can tell that's true by simply observing what bme does21:50
ErwinJungeWorking with legacy code in a university environment (not the CS department) is "interesting"21:50
DocScrutinizere.g it is accessing register #40 of a chip that has only 5 registers at all21:50
ErwinJungeWow, that's remarkably crappy21:50
ErwinJungeWhat could be the reason to not release the neccesary technical documents to make an open source implementation from scratch btw? IP?21:51
SpeedEvilThey don't have them21:52
DocScrutinizerlawyers.21:52
SpeedEvilThey simply asked another company to develop it, and they did21:52
SpeedEvilAnd they don't have a suitable set of reimplemtnation documents that are available and not under other companies NDAs21:52
SpeedEvil(plausibly - I have no idea if this is true)21:52
DocScrutinizereach single line of code going out to FOSS from Nokia has to get clearance from lawyers first21:52
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DocScrutinizereach line of specs as well21:53
ErwinJungeMeh, sucks.21:54
DocScrutinizertoday's industry got raided by patent trolls, and lawyers are supposed to make sure nobody us sueing Nokia for using var names starting with "i" or whatever21:55
ErwinJungeAnyways, I have to go. Byebye.21:55
Venemowatch the movie "Patent absurdity"21:55
DocScrutinizerthat's obviously an extremely lenghty and expensive process21:55
DocScrutinizerNokia probably failed to set up a proper structure where employees are paid for sitting in the office and _not_ working for Nokia but rather contributing to FOSS under their own name and responsibility21:57
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, methinks that was never their purpose anyway.21:58
DocScrutinizerexactly21:59
DocScrutinizeras the whole FOSS thing from very beginning wasn't topmost priority for maemo, it seems. More like a means to an end21:59
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, actually alot of people didn't/dont know of Nokia contrinuting to opensource projects at all, since they all do it under own name and such22:02
ShadowJKlike bluez :P22:03
DocScrutinizerfor bme they seem to have missed on it though22:03
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ShadowJKlol22:04
DocScrutinizerwell, this could be related to other NDA stuff that bme is basing on. I dunno22:04
DocScrutinizerIt's not exactly productive to speculate why it is the way it is. Fact is bme won't get disclosed, and we should be happy it isn't, as then we are not temped to reimplement same BS again. Honestly I guess any random implementation will serve same purpose at least as well as the closed source bme22:06
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DocScrutinizerbbl22:09
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internetishard you guys ever have issues making calls or connections even when 3G bars are available because the battery is low? psycho_oreos: very low (in the red)22:30
DocScrutinizeryes, BB5 might stop working even while OMAP system still can cope with the low voltage22:34
SpeedEvilBME will usually shut off when voltage gets that low.22:34
DocScrutinizeresp on old worn-out batteries that have a high impedance22:34
SpeedEvilIf you've killed BME, then absolutely that will happen - modem shuts off at a bit over 3V22:35
internetishardIt shouldn't show the network connection in the status thing then, eh?22:35
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internetishardThat's a booog22:35
DocScrutinizerinternetishard: it will shut down as soon as it tries to pull enormous surges of current for TX from battery, while APE will possibly survive the short dropouts22:36
internetishardIs there a list of acronyms like "APE" that I can learn?22:36
internetishardRather, what book would include them that would get me up to speed?22:37
Siceloprolly wiki.. Hardware section22:39
internetishardI'm just saying the connection shouldn't show if this is the case DocScrutinizer... Since you can't connect to anything22:41
DocScrutinizerinternetishard: I think it's been obvious by my explanation that this condition can be detected no sooner than when you actually try to place a call so GSM TX starts to operate22:42
DocScrutinizerI agree in that moment the phone connectivity indicator should show the fact that modem just shut down22:42
* ShadowJK thinks bme, if not immediately, would shut down at most a few seconds later22:43
internetishardYeah, there I was trying to find a website for someone downtown at 2am with the 3g bars showing... I try like 3 times and then try to make a call to 411... And then figured it was due to low battery22:44
DocScrutinizerAPE is application processor environment here, aka "the linux side"22:44
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: not if the dropouts are < a few 100 ms22:44
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ShadowJKif cellmo crashes or resets it shows up in dmesg22:45
DocScrutinizeryup22:45
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ShadowJKbut more likely in "downtown' network is congested and deprioritizing data to 0 :P22:45
ShadowJKat 3 bars I've also not been able to do 3g22:47
ShadowJKbut then sometimes 1 bar is faster/better than full bars22:47
ShadowJKespecially in "difficult" conditions :)22:47
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: would be actually interesting to see at which "open circuit" voltage of cell @ which Ri(cell) the modem starts to fail on TX full blast, and if twl4030 can or can not cope with the (duration of) brownout surges caused by that22:56
SpeedEvil4030 is way lower22:57
SpeedEvilIIRC lowest battery voltage I've seen it running at is 274522:57
DocScrutinizerthe problem with determining this is however that we got no means to know at which power factor the cellmo TX actually operates ATM22:58
DocScrutinizerafaik22:58
DocScrutinizermaybe 3GPP defines some mandatory AT cmds to learn about TX output power22:59
ShadowJKeh just download garbage and you know it's full tilt :D23:00
DocScrutinizer(to limit modem TX so it won't add up to a too high SAR value when WLAN is operating same time ;-D )23:00
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: the question though is: will it crap out on short surges as caused by GSM TX23:01
DocScrutinizeresp when GSM TX maybe aborts prematurely due to voltage during brownout is too low for it to properly send out one 20ms chunk/timeslice23:02
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ShadowJKoh, bme began low battery warnig at 44% bq capacity for my crapbattery :P23:02
ShadowJKmaybe it's on to something23:03
DocScrutinizerquite possibly23:03
internetishardyou guys have the n9 dev versions yet? How do you like it?23:03
DocScrutinizeryou'd probably want a scope to learn what's really going on with battery voltage over (short) time23:03
DocScrutinizer:x23:04
SpeedEvilAs far as I'm aware, nobody in the community has gotten n9s yet23:04
SpeedEvil(to replace their n950)23:04
SpeedEvilAnd there is no new firmware either.23:04
DocScrutinizerthose who did don't talk too much about it23:04
internetishardSorry, I meant n95023:05
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SpeedEvilThere is no new (public) furmware23:05
DocScrutinizeror wouldn't call themselves "community"23:05
SpeedEvil2724mV is the lowest in my logs23:05
DocScrutinizerwow23:07
internetishardso you guys have n950s?23:07
internetishardwhat do you think of the speed and everything?23:07
DocScrutinizerthat's close to kill-cell23:07
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kerioDocScrutinizer: kill-cell?23:14
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ShadowJKkill-cell: battery dies23:33
SpeedEvilThat's not the internal protection kicking off.23:34
SpeedEvilActually -nvm23:35
SpeedEvilit might be23:35
SpeedEvilthinking of something else.23:35
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