IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2011-08-19

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javispedroah, many lines reminiscent of the elopcalypse.00:13
javispedro"we can also find HP execs in parking lots and beat them with sticks until they agree to do what we want"00:13
* SpeedEvil idly wonders about a meego dev program. 00:14
* javispedro shudders at the idea that now the only alternate acceptable platform is android00:14
SpeedEvil'take this, and do anything with it! Quickly! Please!00:14
SpeedEvilIndeed.00:14
SpeedEvilLarge players exiting the market is a terrible thing.00:15
javispedroI might be crazy, but if in two years I have to choose between Android and Apple, I would choose Apple.00:15
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SpeedEvilOn what grounds?00:16
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, me too.00:16
GeneralAntillesIt being less shit.00:16
javispedroso let's hope tomorrow the tide brings something new the same the tide today took away another platform.00:16
javispedroSpeedEvil: mostly same as GeneralAntilles; and I like Apple's arch from a designer PoV more than Android's.00:17
javispedros/designer/architect ;)00:17
GeneralAntillesAndroid can't even run smoothly on a dual-1GHz Cortex-A9 with 1GB of RAM.00:17
GeneralAntillesUsability wise it's shit, too.00:19
nid0well, hopefully in 2 years ms's offering will be a viable third choice at least00:19
javispedroIt is a clusterfsck. It is more similar to old PalmOS or RIM's stuff than a new mobile platform.00:19
GeneralAntillesnid0, good luck with that.00:19
javispedrohah!00:19
* ShadowJK wonders if google's "own" phones run/ran it smooth00:19
GeneralAntillesShadowJK, Nexus One didn't.00:19
GeneralAntillesAndroid is just plain shityt.00:19
javispedroNokia/HP might abandon lesser-used platforms,00:20
javispedrobut microsoft does the opposite00:20
nid0I dont see the problem, their ui's infinitely nicer than android and far smoother, and if mango's any indication theyre piling the features on00:20
javispedroif WP7 ever reaches spot#1, they will say their job is done and abandon it.00:20
javispedrosee IE6, see WinMo 6.500:20
javispedroand what will happen next is that progress in the area is slowed down by a decade until the next player comes.00:20
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ShadowJKso they should have called it IE6 build 5678 instead of IE9? :)00:21
DocScrutinizermeh, what's that fuss about left over platforms? Aren't we "the community", don't we do our own platform?00:21
nid0well, ie6 was job done, there was no value to them in producing the next version of a free browser that brings them no direct income and had no competition00:21
nid0whereas wp7 does and has00:21
javispedronid0: they did with wm600:21
DocScrutinizerit's actually just about vendor support for a particular OS on a particular HW00:21
javispedronid0: once they beat palm, they stopped right in the tracks.00:21
jacekowskijavispedro: which platform?00:22
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javispedrojacekowski: you mean which platform left us today? http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/18/hp-will-discontinue-operations-for-webos-devices/00:22
jacekowskiexpected00:22
GeneralAntillesWhy would you choose WP7 over iOS?00:23
jacekowskii'm surprised that it took them so long00:23
jacekowskiGeneralAntilles: because it's not unix based00:23
jacekowskiand over years i got fed up with nix based systems more and more and mroe00:23
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DocScrutinizerhonestly debian FTW00:23
ShadowJKiOS is more Step...00:24
javispedrojacekowski: wince is slightly more unixy than win3200:24
javispedrofor a start, they expose devices as files and have a single filesystem tree.00:24
DocScrutinizermaybe even ubuntu00:24
ShadowJKMacOS is more NextStep than Unix based :/00:24
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: as if NeXTStep was no *nix00:26
jacekowskijavispedro: win32 exposes devices as files00:27
DocScrutinizerok it has a mach microkernel, and a few BSD remnants00:27
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: *nix != Unix00:27
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javispedrojacekowski: winnt, not win32.00:27
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: GNU is Not Unix00:27
ShadowJKLots of things are files in windows, you just can't list them with 'dir' :-)00:27
luke-jrneither is NeXT00:27
javispedrowinnt also technically has a single filesystem tree. but all of win32 is based around drive letters.00:28
javispedrowhich do not exist at all in wince since they were allowed to break API.00:28
ShadowJKlet's port Plan9 to N90000:28
DocScrutinizerHURD00:29
* javispedro boots the HURD in a VM00:29
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* javispedro slightly laughs00:29
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: and then run DukeNukem4ever on it00:29
javispedroelopcalypse ----> "but Meego is NOT yet dead there's still Intel!"00:30
javispedroweboscalypse --> "but webOS is NOT yet dead there's still $RANDOM_HOPEFULLY_FUTURE_LICENSEE"00:30
nid0maybe grid os will be the next big thing00:31
jacekowskijavispedro: maybe it's because linux on phone is a disaster00:31
DocScrutinizerI have to reinterate it: seems this week started with a Friday and was all Fridays since.00:31
javispedrojacekowski: ask those Google guys00:31
jacekowskiand android only succeded because it was hiding that fact00:31
javispedrojacekowski: they seem to be doing rather well seemingly.00:31
* DocScrutinizer just wonders if that'S just him or actually the mood and topics in this chan00:31
javispedrojacekowski: so you are saying gnu glibc on a phone is a disaster?00:31
jacekowskijavispedro: but android isn't really your typical linux00:31
javispedrowhat's exactly the disaster there?00:32
javispedros/there/then/00:32
infobotjavispedro meant: what's exactly the disaster then?00:32
jacekowskiask normal users00:32
jacekowskisomehow palm pre didn't sell as good as android phones00:32
ShadowJKI remember cursing at how slow gtk was drawing xchat on my PC, and shaking my head at those lunatics that wanted to run linux on phones. Then I got the N810 with Linuc+GTK, and it was about 5 times more responsive than my Symbian cellphone :-)00:32
nid0well, the palm pre had the distinct disadvantage that the actual phone was shit00:33
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: android is definitely NOT linux, esp wrt to embedded-relating properties00:33
jacekowskiShadowJK: i had ngage00:33
jacekowskiShadowJK: and it was bloody fast00:33
jacekowskiShadowJK: and i had games for it00:33
jacekowskiand everything00:33
javispedroand it didn't sell.00:34
jacekowskiprice00:34
jacekowskii worked for 2 months at mcdonalds to buy it00:34
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* Sicelo still has ngage :P00:34
javispedroit was probably cheaper than any of the phones that are sold today?00:34
jacekowskino00:34
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nid0looks also didnt help it.00:35
javispedroI remember once considering getting it for 250€00:35
javispedroso it was _way_ cheaper.00:35
DocScrutinizerpalm pre has an all shitty formfactor00:35
DocScrutinizertoo large, too small screen and too tiny kbd00:35
javispedrostill better than N9's ;)00:36
DocScrutinizerWUT?00:36
DocScrutinizeraaah00:36
jacekowskii'll buy WP7 version of N900:36
DocScrutinizeryeah00:36
javispedroI liked Pre3's form f better than N9's. But for me N810 was best.00:36
* ShadowJK mostly wants something that he can do stuff with easily, and can access email00:37
javispedrojacekowski: hope you already know C#00:37
ShadowJKN900 was first phone that could do that :P00:37
DocScrutinizerI think all the old nerds agreed on that from N900's birth on00:37
nid0I still have my e90 for that <300:37
jacekowskijavispedro: i do00:37
jacekowskijavispedro: better than jav00:37
jacekowskijava*00:37
ShadowJKthough "do stuff" was marginally possible on symbian too after it got python00:37
DocScrutinizer...that N900 was even better if it had kept N810's formfactor00:37
ShadowJKI thought Win7M was silverlight00:38
javispedro"do stuff" was technically possible even on old PalmOS.00:38
javispedrohow painless it is, that's another story.00:38
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DocScrutinizerPalmOS was toxic architecture00:39
ShadowJKWell, the only way to do streaming audio was to dowmload a chunk, save as mp3, play back mp3 while downloading next file. There were gaps :P00:39
javispedroit was 1990's.00:39
javispedrosame way android is 2000's.00:39
DocScrutinizerstill00:39
javispedrowill all the java and memory conserving crap.00:40
javispedro(and it still does it rather badly)00:40
ShadowJKthen nokia made some new secret api to actually stream audio, and a net radio app, which only worked on a small subset of symbian, hooray :/00:40
javispedrothe only way to make background network activity on the PalmOS was to fake an audio stream so that your app was periodically called for new audio, so ;)00:41
* ShadowJK can't wait to see how smoothly excel in silverlight runs ;D00:43
javispedroheh, ari posted already00:43
javispedros/posted/tweeted00:43
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GeneralAntilleslol http://twitter.com/#!/outlawarth/status/10430759419734835300:44
javispedrofakeselop was already saying he has "anti-midas" touch ;P first maemo then meego then webos ;)00:45
GeneralAntillesBeing familiar with Ari's past endeavors, I'm going to have to agree.00:45
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javispedroit's fun that the world leading PC manufacturer tried to get rid of its PC business because of "low profits".00:48
* javispedro now thinks the world is rather doomed.00:48
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jacekowskiwell, all home electronics is cheap00:48
jacekowskiso profit margins are now much lower00:48
jacekowskibut i don't understand why would you get rid of something that makes you profit00:48
ShadowJKI have a HP laptop someone asked me to fix. It's shaped like a brick, weighs like a brick, has the aesthetics of a brick. It seems full of random proprietary extension ports nobody will/would ever use :-)00:50
javispedrojacekowski: downward trend.00:50
* DocScrutinizer sets up an autokicker on regex "twitter.com/#!/"00:50
ShadowJKno wonder they arent making money00:50
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javispedroShadowJK: brick=cheap. sell many=profit. but they aren't making money for some reason.00:50
nid0personally, the only HP kit I have is a fairly awesome all-in-one printer that cost less to buy new than the replacement 4 ink cartridges it takes00:50
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, hey, I've got seniority.00:50
DocScrutinizer:-P00:50
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DocScrutinizerfree thoughts! twitter is crap!00:51
fizzieThe N-Gage, when I got one, was the absolutely cheapest thing that ran Symbian they had. I think it was ~130 eur, and came bundled with some Tony Hawk game + an RC helicopter. But admittedly this was quite late, after it had turned out to be the flop.00:51
ShadowJKjavispedro, custom electronics is probably more expensive than having some idiot make a plastic case for it ;-)00:51
DocScrutinizerI could ask tim riker to teach infobot to auto-resolve twiter.com URLs and spit out the content00:52
DocScrutinizersimilar to ~wiki00:52
jacekowskifizzie: that was QD you're talking about00:52
fizzieNo, it wasn't.00:52
ShadowJKthe "NGAGE App" ran quite smoothly on my otherwise slughish symbian, but it was focus stealing captive fullscreen :/00:52
jacekowskiQD had rc helicopter bundled00:53
DocScrutinizer~twitter00:53
infobotwell, twitter is a popular microblogging site00:53
DocScrutinizerblarg!00:53
DocScrutinizer~useless00:53
* infobot starts crying and hides from docscrutinizer in the darkest corner of the room. :(00:53
DocScrutinizer~twitter  http://twitter.com/#!/outlawarth/status/10430759419734835300:53
fizziejacekowski: Well, I can quite easily tell the original and the QD apart, and what I have here isn't QD. But the seller (verkkokauppa.com) kept bundling those 'copters with just about everything.00:53
ShadowJKI remember considering ngage too, but decided that typing stuff on its keyboard would be too slow :/00:55
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DocScrutinizermicroblogging - nice. Actually usually the URL is longer than the relevant info bits contained in the 500kB download when you click on it00:55
javispedroNGage has been the only Symbian phone I've _EVER_ considered.00:55
javispedrowhich is why I'm quite sure it was less than 250€00:55
javispedroquite sure it was 200€ but I'll toss in the 50€ for safety margin.00:55
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DocScrutinizerand I'd even bet twitter friggin data junk you download with every click is infested by malware00:57
* ShadowJK bought a Siemens CF-62 for 250. It had 600-ish K ram for java2 ME :D the cpu was extremely slow, and like it succumbed to siemens quality issue death pretty fast :/00:57
javispedroI also had siemens00:57
javispedrooh, I think their mobile division died too?00:58
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javispedroI should add it to the list.00:58
javispedroa CX75 was the last one I had iirc.00:58
ShadowJKiirc LG bought it00:58
DocScrutinizermeh, once I had a c-10 iirc00:59
DocScrutinizersucked00:59
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DocScrutinizerthen I got me a Nokia 6210 which I had like 10 years01:00
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ShadowJKback when nokia build quality was good :P01:00
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DocScrutinizeryeah01:00
Primeshello I have a nokia N900 running maemo 5 PR1.3. My phone is not locked to a network. I'd like to know how to do manual network selection. I heard it was under settings > manual network selection but I don't see that01:01
DocScrutinizerand guess what, I used same battery all those years01:01
* javispedro never bought Nokia before the N810 =)01:01
PrimesI have an O2 sim from UK, and when visiting france it selected roaming onto orange-france01:01
DocScrutinizerand I bet the 6210 had bme as well X-P01:01
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javispedroPrimes: Settings -> Phone01:02
ShadowJKPrimes, settings - phone01:02
javispedrod'oh!01:02
nid0settings > phone > network selection01:02
Primesstill had a nokia 8310 since 9 years with original battery01:02
DocScrutinizerLOL01:02
DocScrutinizerallow data roaming, allow roaming01:02
DocScrutinizeror better: disallow01:03
nid0i've still got my like 13 year old 3210 somewhere01:03
DocScrutinizeror select "manual network selection"01:03
* javispedro cries01:03
PrimesAh ok, thanks, after scrolling down, I found those settings. Great01:03
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javispedrowebOS had way larger marketshare than Meego, and a CEO that wasn't a Microsoft trojan horse, and despite that got the axe.01:03
ShadowJKmy 3210 underclocked itself. Then I borrowed its battery for my discman, and the battery got a bit angry :|01:03
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wmaronejavispedro: he could be a trojan of a different kind01:04
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* javispedro 's optimism largely ran off for the night.01:06
nid0hes clearly a macromedia trojan really, maybe its all part of his diabolical plan to bring coldfusion to the masses01:06
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DocScrutinizerI never really looked into it, so: webos ever been meant to be anything beyond sth like err.. e.g. bada?01:07
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javispedrowhy do you think bada is not mean to be something beyond $INSERT_RANDOM_OTHER_PLATFORM?01:09
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Primestrojan or not, some decisions coming out of nokia seem crazy. eg call yourself a burning platform, say your main OS is dead. Announce totally new product before availability, announce without ship for a year. Go with an OS that your rivals have not been able to succeed with. Make a new phone and discourage selling it in some countries.01:09
DocScrutinizerbada, according to raster, is a hickup, and according to what I read about it is a closed proprietary OS with a free SDK01:10
PrimesAnd that's without mentioning change around all the top jobs, lose some best people and sack your developers, not to mention alienate the open source community01:10
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* DocScrutinizer just had a daydream: Nokia grows a brain and restarts another production run of N900i, just with better SoC/POP (and some very clever rework for a thruhole USB)01:12
nid0and, dear god, a decent keyboard01:12
DocScrutinizerno way01:12
Primeshow about a nokia n950 with NFC, with replaceable battery, with a full size sim slot, into retail01:13
DocScrutinizerthe whole point being they already got *everything* for that enterprise, already done, to the FCC even01:13
Primesif you want developers to write NFC apps, giving them a dev phone without NFC ..... doing something wrong01:13
PrimesUSB2GO ie host and slave modes will also help01:14
lupine_85why do people have this obsession with NFC?01:14
lupine_85it's bad and wrong and evil01:14
DocScrutinizerPrimes: N950 HAS "full size" SIM01:14
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nid0whats the problem with nfc01:14
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PrimesN9 has cut down I guess I made assumption they were same01:14
DocScrutinizerPrimes: or did you talk about credit card sized SIM?01:14
lupine_85it's neither as useful as bluetooth nor as simple as RFID01:14
lupine_85both of which are pretty flawed systems themselves01:15
PrimesUsually you get a credit card size and have to pop it out for a standard size sim. That's useful to swap between phones, as hackers will do01:15
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Primesonce you cut them, it's less useful expect to swap with an iphone01:15
SpeedEvilTop tip.01:15
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SpeedEvilIf you have a credit-card with a micro-SIM in, you can - with a chisel - make it into a standard SIM.01:16
lupine_85well, it's just form factor01:16
DocScrutinizerNEVER insert microsim with adapter to N950?01:16
Primesboth bluetooth and rfid had security issues. But the payments industry seems to be adopting NFC. I want to be able to pay stuff using my smartphone01:16
lupine_85i'm sure you can get µsim->sim adapters01:16
SpeedEvilAnd yes - that too01:16
lupine_85much like microsd->sd adapters01:16
SpeedEvilnever ever use a microsim adaptor in n95001:16
PrimesI don't have a N950 to try it with01:16
lupine_85I wouldn't know, not having one :)01:16
lupine_85any particular reason?01:16
SpeedEvilWorks fine for n900 though.01:16
SpeedEvillupine_85: It breaks the SIM slot.01:17
lupine_85ouch01:17
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lupine_85engineering fail01:17
SpeedEvilAs the contacts get caught in the gap01:17
Primesreally? is that all adaptors or just some??01:17
SpeedEvilAt least one01:17
DocScrutinizerlupine_85: not really01:17
lupine_85still, it was a development phone01:17
SpeedEvilSpecification fail.01:17
SpeedEvilNot so much engineering01:17
lupine_85can't expect too much of it01:17
Primesmaybe it's designed that way so you're holding it wrong01:17
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nid0I dont understand why people pay for these adaptors, are places other than the uk that stingy with sims that you cant walk into your nearest network's shop and get one the right size?01:18
PrimesIdeally I'd like a phone with 2 sim slots like some asian ones01:18
DocScrutinizernid0: you can, but not with same contract usually01:18
nid0:\01:18
SpeedEvilEven some nokia asian ones now01:18
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nid0lame networks01:18
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Primesbut it's not quick to port a nice old 2G number from my business card onto their new "giveaway" sims01:19
DocScrutinizernid0: prepaid aka PAYG never actually come as twin SIM01:19
javispedroDocScrutinizer: closed OS with free SDK: isn't that the definition of Maemo and Meego also ;)01:19
DocScrutinizerso your PAYG number is locked to one SIM formfactor01:20
Primesbut 2 sims ie 2 networks have advantageous tariff eg international01:20
DocScrutinizeryou can swap formfactor and keep number, but it costs and is irreversible01:20
PrimesUsing one of those choppers you can make a full sim into a mini one. It should just work. But you can't easily glue the excess back on to get a big one again01:20
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: not exactly01:21
javispedromaybe now that webos is dead it's time to make something public01:21
DocScrutinizerthough for meego HARM I'd agree01:21
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Primeswhen did webos died?01:21
javispedroI run webOS on my N900 =)01:21
DocScrutinizertoday?01:21
PrimesN900 can run maemo, meego, kubuntu, debian, windows95, nitdroid.....01:22
nid0well, its gone stagnant. not many people yet seem to have picked up on the fact that hp are evidently wanting to transition to software and services, and webos is software.01:22
nid0they just need an interested hardware vendor to use it01:22
DocScrutinizernid0: my number never changed since 1999, and I still have that SIM that for sure is of the crackable generation - so IF I really bothered I probably could clone _that_one_01:23
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DocScrutinizernid0: you see why I'd never swap it for a microsim01:24
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PrimesI have the old crackable 2G sim with a nice number. I don't think you can clone it into a 3G sim, too different01:24
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DocScrutinizermeh, the SIM itself is all the same for 3G01:24
Primesyes for 3G (except some minor mem capacity difference) but 2G changed into 3G different01:25
DocScrutinizerit actually never really changed (except for power supply voltage)01:25
Primesthat's what I thought voltage change. so I didn't want to bust my 3G n900 by inserting a 2G sim which could draw too much current01:26
DocScrutinizernah, no problem01:26
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javispedroa nokia care guy once told me the effect an older sim has on battery is noticeable01:26
Primesplausible01:27
DocScrutinizersure01:27
DocScrutinizerit's a few mA01:27
DocScrutinizerwhich makes a difference like 250 vs 100h standby maybe01:27
DocScrutinizermaybe less01:28
DocScrutinizerbut no hw will break on old SIM01:28
DocScrutinizernot even the SIM :-)01:28
DocScrutinizernot even new SIM in old 3.3V phones01:28
Primesyeah new phones won't break old sim. But I'm not confident of the opposite.01:28
DocScrutinizerit's just all phones support the old standard still, and the SIMs also work on old standard still01:29
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DocScrutinizerPrimes: afaik all SIM/phone start up at 3V3, then *may* negotiate lower voltage01:30
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SpeedEvilUmm. Weren't _VERY_ old SIMs 5v?01:30
DocScrutinizermaybe, I don't actually recall01:30
SpeedEvilBut not with something even as new as 199901:31
PrimesI didn't read all the gsm specs. As speedevil says some maybe were originally higher. I don't know how old my 2G sim is in that timescale, perhaps 200301:31
SpeedEvilBut a 5v SIM simply just won't work01:31
DocScrutinizerbah, no issues with those "youngsters"01:32
SpeedEvilno damage on either side will occu01:32
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DocScrutinizeron Freerunner we had issues with some 3G cards, but that was due to modem firmware borked on clock freq negotiation with those particular types iirc01:33
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DocScrutinizerand it wasn't exactly related to "3G"01:33
DocScrutinizermore to the chip type in the card01:33
DocScrutinizerI think this was the major fix with moko9 fw01:34
* javispedro cries some more... waaaaaaaaaaah01:34
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: wazzup?01:34
* javispedro looks at the n900 and n950 and REALLY hopes they last now.01:34
Primesright well I like 3G so I'll be trying to get the network to port my 2G number onto this 3G or a replacement 3G card. The guy in their store seemed to think it was complex either a 3 or 2 step process depending if I was signing up to contract or not01:35
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: you know 950 never will even reach maturity01:35
Primesit is more mature than a n900 I say01:35
javispedrohardly01:35
DocScrutinizermeh01:35
DocScrutinizerno way01:35
DocScrutinizerand the OS will *never* get fully adapted to 950, it's a N9 OS01:36
javispedroif there's not a new fw someday it'll probably be relegated quite quickly.01:36
Primeshardware wise it's better. The software can catch up over time01:36
Primesthe community can adapt it more, IF there are enough of the phones around01:36
DocScrutinizerodds are future OS versions have _more_ N950 specific flaws rather than less01:36
javispedrohardware wise sadly it's a bit on the underpowered side, save for the much appreciated RAM.01:36
fusiusb port has just gone kaput ^^01:36
javispedroDocScrutinizer: the current OS has not many N950 flaws. Rather, browser crashes, fenix crashes are common.01:37
PrimesIsn't the n950 the same 1ghz as the N9?01:37
Arkenoithe only two things that annoys me really much (except aegis and capacitive screen) are "smart" keyboard behavior when typing messages and notes and landscape mode glitches01:37
Primesdoes opera browser crash on it?01:37
jacekowskii'm still using my 10 years old simcard01:37
Arkenoibrowser and email crashes just as often as n900 did01:37
DocScrutinizerPrimes: there aren't enough around, and relevant bits are still blobs01:37
jacekowskifrom times when nobody heard about 3g01:37
Arkenoithe only difference is MfE now really works01:37
javispedroArkenoi: NOWHERE near it.01:37
Primesmy browsers never crashed on n900 (I used 4 so far)01:38
jacekowskiPrimes: BS01:38
jacekowskiPrimes: microb crashed01:38
Arkenoimicrob did crash quite frequently for me01:38
javispedrobrowser crashes for every other page, EVEN with the advantage that the N950 has NO flash while the N900 does (and Flash is to blame for most the crashes I had on the N900)01:38
jacekowskiPrimes: chromium crashed01:38
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: look at $random_app, what do you see? Right! portrait mode01:38
javispedroDocScrutinizer: portrait mode is not a nuisance for me01:38
javispedroactually I partially prefer portrait mode.01:38
DocScrutinizerfor me it is01:38
trxi only had camera app crash01:39
Primes"you're surfing it wrong"01:39
trxnothing else01:39
trxi have uptimes of 30days01:39
fusi..ok01:39
javispedroand fenix has lots of crashes pluse a few reproduceable ones (try to fetch mail without an active icd2 connection for ex.)01:39
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javispedroI can even get Xorg to crash....01:39
fusii havent managed that yet ^^01:40
javispedrothe first days I was considering sending my coredumps directory... but by now it's rather large.01:40
PrimesI got openoffice running. Went to our hackerspace the other day. I was the only person whose phone could run openoffice lol01:41
javispedrowebos also could run openoffice!01:41
* javispedro goes cries some more01:41
DocScrutinizerFWIW: http://paste.debian.net/126674/01:41
Primesif they made n900 in an ipad form factor I'd use it01:42
javispedroPrimes: http://cordiatab.com/01:42
* Arkenoi wishes n950 could run DtG, OOo sucks big time01:42
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Primesthat cordia tab looks nice, but why the mono speaker rather than stereo?01:44
DocScrutinizerpfff on N950 _everything_ sucks, except HARMed err MTFed apps that are able to decode sausage touch events01:44
javispedrowell, everything not.01:45
PrimesSausage touch? That sounds rude, I daren't ask01:45
javispedroI'm rather impressed by Qt's rendering and relayouting speed.01:45
DocScrutinizeryoh01:45
DocScrutinizerdoesn't help though01:46
DocScrutinizerc-ts is c-ts is c-ts01:46
javispedroc-ts is crap ts indeed.01:46
javispedrocan't understand why anyone would want it.01:46
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javispedroah, you meant "everything" as in "every desktop GNU/Linux app".01:47
javispedromisunderstood.01:47
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* Arkenoi loves n950 feel01:47
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DocScrutinizerArkenoi: the device is shiny, and cool, and good quality. Just it's almost a me-too-iPhone and not made for DocScrutinizer01:48
Arkenoikeyboard is way better01:48
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Arkenoiif it would not be spoiled with "smart" behavior01:48
javispedrothere's something weird with the hwkb01:49
DocScrutinizeryeah, and you actually can *use* the kbd when device sits on table01:49
javispedroI do not like the keyb as much as the N900 or N810.01:49
javispedrobut I cannot tell why.01:49
Arkenoiis there no known method to force it to behave as a decent keyboard should do, without all that stupid "smartphone smartass tricks"?01:50
Primesa friend had a nokia external bluetooth keyboard he bought on ebay I guess it might connect with the n900. His was white and folded in half, nearly full size keys01:50
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: usually I get same feeling, but 5 days ago I had 30s were I noticed it's not bad at all, This moment ended as it came01:50
javispedroI do think it might be because it requires getting used to it.01:50
Primesyou mean it insists on that texting expansion prediction tricks?01:50
Arkenoii switched to n900 from e90 and i can say n900 keyboard truly sucked. with n950 i feel almost as comfortable as before01:50
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: that, and the missing convexity of keycaps01:51
javispedroBut I do not remember such a strong feeling when moving from n810 to n900 and there is no comparison (the n810 is ages better)01:51
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Primesn900 keys are a little small. I'd quite like the n900 bigger/wider. In particular the extra line of keys for the numerics, like the n95001:51
javispedroso, as said, I feel there's something weird. Can't get to the same speed and it gets tiresome.01:51
ArkenoiPrimes: prediction can be turned off, but weird attempts to insert capital letter after dot etc etc cannot01:52
DocScrutinizerthat's probably all about the keycap shape01:52
javispedroDocScrutinizer: might be, come to think of it.01:52
PrimesIt's compactness, I can burst to 89 words a minute on a full desktop quality keyboard, mobile is a compromise01:52
javispedroon both the N810 and the N900 they were slightly convex as you mentioned01:52
PrimesRight that's annoying. I do my own capitalisation by choice01:53
javispedroPrimes: you clearly are not a Maemo oldtimer, eh?01:53
javispedroyou get used to it.01:53
DocScrutinizerArkenoi: that are the flaws in OS that will never vanish01:53
Primesno, I wanted this N900 since launch, now I have one. I was using linux for many years though01:53
ArkenoiDocScrutinizer: ..like? except aegis01:53
DocScrutinizer<Arkenoi> Primes: prediction can be turned off, but weird attempts to insert capital letter after dot etc etc cannot01:54
javispedroall of them can be turned off, afaik vkb is mostly open.01:54
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DocScrutinizerooh it is?01:54
Arkenoijavispedro: HOW?01:54
javispedroprobably same level as Maemo though.01:54
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javispedroArkenoi: on Maemo? the package you want to edit is called hildon input method.01:55
Arkenoiah, vkb. and how can i turn it off for hw keyboard?01:55
javispedrosame01:55
DocScrutinizerso pretty please FIX THE SHIT somebody! IT's so annoying the Fn and shift key are not sticky01:55
PrimesConsidering n900 is available used for less than 1/3 of the launch price, it's a bargain01:55
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Arkenoijavispedro: on fremantle i successfully turned it off just using standard settings01:55
DocScrutinizerlet alone autocapitalization01:55
PrimesStickyness needs to be a configurable option. Autocapitalization is always evil.01:56
DocScrutinizeras is the braindamaged word completion01:57
Arkenoinokia's obsession with it is ridiculous. same thing on symbian01:57
* javispedro tries to forget about the HP news and continue coding as usual...01:57
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: to better your mood (I hoe): any news about FMRX audio?01:58
DocScrutinizerhope*01:58
javispedrosadly, no01:58
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javispedroI've been busy with vsync as of lately but the current status is the same as last week: out of ideas.01:59
Primeswhen will the n9 be available?01:59
javispedromaybe never01:59
ArkenoiHP was acting like idiots since the very beginning. i know several people who were willing to buy webOS device once it will be available in the local store, but it did never get in.01:59
DocScrutinizerdon't you think the dude that wrote "(c) <me>@nokia" into header of audio related stuff should be able to help?01:59
Primesnot never, just not in many countries02:00
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Primesamazon will have it, sourced from Austria02:00
javispedroyeah well even the swedish site that used to promote it is gone02:00
javispedroso ask amazon...02:00
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Primesthey now say it won't be in UK (my home) , finland (their home) or germany (linux hackers home)02:01
Arkenoimajority of people buys in local retail only, no internet orders02:01
Arkenoiand it was not available02:01
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: you'd think that audio dude had to have access to the schematic details for all McBSP and analog audio crap02:02
Arkenoi(nor via the internet worldwide officially anyways)02:02
Primesmaybe the networks and their stores don't want an "open" phone that supports multi network, voip, less "customisation" (crapware)02:02
ArkenoiPrimes: no one gives a flying fsck to cellular network operators here in russia02:03
Arkenoithey do not control the market at all02:03
javispedroDocScrutinizer: so you're saying I should email the wl1273 fm driver author..02:03
Primesmost people buy subsidised phone on contract. The n9 is more like 600 GBP sim free02:03
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Arkenoiand it is typical in EMEA as i understand it02:03
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: yes, CC alsa author02:03
javispedroalsa author is TI, mostly02:03
DocScrutinizerCC PA author (though this prolly will be the same)02:04
javispedroexcept for wl1273 codec which is the same guy02:04
PrimesI bought my phones without contracts. If not I'd unlock them anyway.02:04
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PrimesThe sheeple will continue to buy iphones and androids02:04
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: aaah, CC quim gil OF COURSE02:05
javispedrolet's try the fm driver guy first, I hope he knows the rm680 best.02:05
DocScrutinizerCC konttori CC DocScrutinizer02:05
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DocScrutinizerI'd not miss qgil out of CC, it might be relevant he keeps track of the problems the devels face. And please include me to CC as well02:07
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DocScrutinizerif you don't mind02:08
DocScrutinizertry to find the guy who checked in the alsaped rules file (whatever been the real name of that cryptic crap), he's the one who definitely has to know *all* about audio02:11
javispedrooh02:13
javispedrothis reminds me02:13
javispedrothe alsaped files also hint about analog fmrx02:13
javispedrobut I dunno whether it is a reminiscence of N900 or what.02:14
javispedroDocScrutinizer: grep fmrx and you'll see.02:14
javispedro(there's no much though)02:14
DocScrutinizerhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=6399702:14
javispedroMY EYES! THE GOGGLES! THEY DO NOTHING!!!02:15
DocScrutinizerCBA to download some *.sh.gz to find out about the FQNof alsaped file02:15
javispedrofrom that guy?02:15
javispedroI have real device02:15
javispedrobtw02:15
javispedrofirst nomination for september council election: jeremiah02:16
DocScrutinizermind sharing the FQN?02:16
javispedroDocScrutinizer: ah, a moment.02:16
javispedro/usr/share/policy/etc/noswap/pulse/xpolicy.conf02:17
javispedro(n950)02:17
javispedroactually02:17
javispedroit's funny.02:17
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javispedrothat file hints about the DIGITAL input02:17
* javispedro is now confused02:17
DocScrutinizerthnx02:17
* DocScrutinizer boots 95002:18
javispedroah, here it is.02:18
javispedroso you have two references to fmrx on the same file02:18
javispedroone mentions fmrx input via digital port aka codec02:18
javispedrowl127x codec02:18
javispedrothe other mentions analog port aka hw002:19
javispedro(which is twl codec)02:19
javispedroit does correctly mention that BT HSP goes via wl127x, and a2dp goes via bluez.02:20
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DocScrutinizerhmm02:22
Jaffajavispedro: Read http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75863?02:23
javispedrooh, first time there's more info on TMO than on the community mailing list! ;)02:24
Jaffajavispedro: Yeah, well SD69 fucked up the formatting, sending BBCode everywhere. So, for once, TMO has better formatting. It's entertaining in a mini-TMO kinda way02:24
javispedro(actually seems to be because the ml mail was misformatted and brain skipped it)02:24
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javispedroohnoes, politics!02:32
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* javispedro doesn't have an opinion on the maemo.org topic02:36
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villagercrappety crap... the lcd display on my n900 has cracked... it's like "brand new! psychedelic n900! now with funky randomly colored stripes and groovy flickering"02:38
javispedrosadly, I'm just a type B in Jaffa's "two types of people" list, and thus I'd just move try to set up a diablo autobuilder in COBS and call it a day.02:38
javispedrodiablo+fremantle02:38
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Jaffajavispedro: A Diablo/Fremantle autobuilder in COBS helps solve the biggest cost sink in maemo.org (I'm guessing): the autobuilder & repos02:40
javispedrois it a given that nokia will keep tablet-dev.n.c up though?02:40
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javispedroerr... tablets-dev02:41
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villagerI'm guessing there's not much chance of getting the n900 display repaired these days...02:42
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Jaffajavispedro: If not, that's "solvable" by discussion (I'd guess)02:44
Sc0rpiuswow HP killed WebOS02:44
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* javispedro cries again02:44
Jaffajavispedro: You're going to be doing that a lot, aren't you?02:47
JaffawebOS was interesting, but they just didn't make any hardware that interested me running it02:47
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javispedroindeed.02:47
javispedrothought I was eyeing the Pre3.02:48
javispedro*though02:48
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Primesn900 display and/or digitiser were often on ebay these days02:56
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fusiguide anywhere on how to fix broken usb port yourself? ive got a general idea, just need to read something02:58
SpeedEvil~usbfix02:58
infobotFixate receptacle like this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=547991#post547991 - get the pic.zip form there http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=870017&postcount=27 for details how to deal with contact pads came off, or >>NEVER use epoxy glue!<<02:58
fusithanks m802:59
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fusioff to maplins tomorrow ^^03:00
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fusibuy myself a teeeenie tiny soldering iron03:00
villagerPrimes: hmm, interesting03:00
SpeedEvilAlso the appropriate screwdriver03:00
SpeedEvilPossibly an idea to source a fresh USB socket too03:01
fusithe port hasnt come off th board yet03:02
fusibut its failing to charge03:02
Primesused n900 available around 120 GBP from cex store. You could get lower C grade or locked if you just want to cannibalise for parts03:02
SpeedEvilfusi: 0th question.03:02
SpeedEvilfusi: Have you checked another lead/computer?03:03
SpeedEvilPrimes: what store?03:03
fusithanks Primes03:03
fusiSpeedEvil: heheh yes ;)03:03
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fusijust wondering if it can be fixed if its still on the baord03:03
SpeedEvilfusi: Also - find a bright light, and ensure there is no debris in the connector03:03
fusior if its a gonner already03:03
fusina its defo gone m803:04
SpeedEvilk03:04
fusii can/could get charge light with certain force on port03:04
fusithrough cable i.e. pushing upwards, inwards, outwards etc03:04
fusigut feelin says im gonna have to pull it off the board and do a botch job03:05
fusisurface mounted isnt it?03:05
fusiconnectors are gonna be underneath, wont get an iorn in there03:05
fusihmm03:05
Primesspeedevil the high street store selling used n900 have online cex.co.uk see pricing and stock availability (what is in what store) there03:05
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fusiwhat are the A B and C's for?03:07
fusiquality?03:07
PrimesA will be mint condition with a box and all accessory03:07
fusiooh03:07
fusireally?03:08
fusihmmm03:08
PrimesI bought a B and actually it had those, with very few minor scratches that aren't visible in use really (I probably gave more scratch myself)03:08
fusiim soooo tempted to buy a secod one03:08
fusisuprised somewhere has it in stock03:09
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Primessome B will not have box/accessories. C will be tested working, probably charger but no video out cable etc.03:09
Primesyeah well all those iphone wanters traded in their n900 probably03:09
Primesyou can also watch the n900 on ebay, but it's hard to know what price the auction will finish at because of competing bidders03:10
fusiheh03:13
fusiaye03:13
fusihmm03:13
fusii hope the seals havent come off03:13
fusibet they bloody have03:13
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Primesyeah I'm kinda tempted to get second n900 myself, run one on o2, one on three03:14
Primesthree have a new "unlimited" data sim. From my use of three mifi unit their network seems ok03:15
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fusioooh03:25
fusiim so tempted but i really cant afford it03:25
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fusii only really need one03:25
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fusiright03:26
fusinext question03:26
fusigiven a 500ma usb cable, can i charge a battery directly03:27
fusii.e. if i strip the wire down03:27
fusiill google that heh ;p03:27
Primesyou don't charge those lithium battery by wire it up to usb 5v!!! Lithium could catch fire. You can recharge battery in another n900, another nokia phone using the same battery, the battery charger official is also available03:30
Primesalso I'm guess n900 price in cex may fall once n9 becomes onto market (n900 owners selling to upgrade)03:31
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fusid'oh03:34
fusihave just been reading stuff along those lines03:34
fusisigh03:34
fusii am now phoneless for an indeterminate perdiod of time03:35
Primessome other nokia phone use the same battery. See if any friends own that, or buy a spare battery that will come in handy, or see if a friendly store can charge it for you03:36
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fusii dont trust people03:37
fusi:p03:37
fusihave just bought a desktop charger03:37
fusimight arrive by saterday maybe03:38
PrimesI trust people to charge a battery, I don't hand them my root passwords or encryption keys03:39
Primeshow much was the charger?03:39
fusii guess im saying, id rather sort it out myself than rely on others ;)03:39
fusi4 quid ish03:39
fusihttp://www.bestofferbuy.com/bl5j-battery-desktop-charger-for-nokia-n900-5800-x6-p-56247.html03:39
Primesyes it's less favours they can call in03:40
fusiwell, i dont like asking and getting rejected ;p03:40
PrimesI can handle the rejection assuming I don't have to visit the store in future :-)03:42
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PrimesThat charger is really cheap. It's not original nokia OEM, but it will charge those batteries. Tempting.03:43
PrimesEarly n900 had a problem where charging port usb came off. Later design revision changed it. Don't know which you have but some engineer may be experienced at the replacement and have required tools03:44
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Primeshi I I need xsltproc to be installed. How can I do it?03:57
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DocScrutinizerfusi: you'll see on those pictures on tmo that the contacts are not under the component, despite it's SMT04:21
DocScrutinizer~factinfo usbfix04:22
infobotusbfix -- created by DocScrutinizer <~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Thu Aug  4 15:11:27 2011 (14 days); it has been requested 11 times, last by SpeedEvil, 1h 23m 8s ago; it has been locked by DocScrutinizer.04:22
DocScrutinizer~usbfix04:22
infobotFixate receptacle like this: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=547991#post547991 - get the pic.zip form there http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=870017&postcount=27 for details how to deal with contact pads came off, or >>NEVER use epoxy glue!<<04:22
DocScrutinizererr04:22
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DocScrutinizerfusi: can you still connect to PC and select mass storage/PCsuite mode?04:23
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javispedroand much like after the elopcalypse, HP stock is already going DOOOOOOoooooooowwwn05:05
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javispedro-10% so far.05:05
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GeneralAntilleslol05:09
GeneralAntillesLotta idiots at the top05:09
GeneralAntillesThe baby boomers need to die off or retired05:09
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LarsNvillager: aty?05:19
LarsNayt too...05:19
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* javispedro hopes for a rather large hp tablet price drop, it still has a IPS screen after all =)05:25
javispedroso many people "returning" their tablets on #webos that it might happen05:25
LarsNI toyed with the idea of a WebOS tablet05:27
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LarsNI think I'm going to get a convertable Lenovo netbook/tablet and just dual boot meego and pc-bsd on it.05:27
javispedroI am getting the x22005:28
flailingmonkeyi really want a pre3... :/05:28
javispedro(x220t)05:28
LarsNI'm looking at the x220s with the slate battery05:29
flailingmonkeyi've used an original pixi, and the UI is pretty nice. i don't really know what brought about this whole decision05:29
LarsNstill thinking the lite convertable tablet would be a good addition.05:29
flailingmonkeyand the whole notion of phone + tablet + desktop integration was crucial05:31
javispedroflailingmonkey: I do agree; it's a stupid idea but it rather works05:32
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javispedrothere was an Intel Meego demo doing the same months before HP's.05:32
javispedroHP marketed it first though.05:32
flailingmonkeyif integration is implemented solidly, it is a major benefit. not just feature05:33
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LarsNI think the blackberry + playbook integration is pretty good05:33
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LarsNof course neither is open, and neither works particularly well with !windows05:33
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javispedroeither way, Pre3=N)05:35
javispedroPre3=N905:35
javispedroyou'd be lucky if you ever find one.05:35
LarsNI have a friend who might be willing to ship me an N9 when they're released.05:36
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LarsNas it is, I'm attempting to install the devel version of sync-evolution to see if I can get my calendars syncing at work. and at home.05:37
javispedroah, the death of PalmOne.05:40
ds3both palms are gone05:42
ds3we need something useful05:42
ds3useable would suffice05:42
javispedrowell, PalmSource is still somewhat alive05:47
javispedroone half of PalmSource is doing rather well05:47
javispedrothey made some rather popular Linux-based operating system05:48
javispedroI think they call it Android.05:48
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LarsNjavispedro: so palmsource was purchased by oracle eh? :)05:53
LarsNjavispedro: sorry, couldn't resist the Dalvek jab05:53
javispedrothere is no purchase involved, it's just that a bunch of employees went for android in 2005/2006 and you can see large influences of PalmOS in the design05:54
javispedrolike Binder (from Palm/Be's OpenBinder)05:55
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flailingmonkeyyeah06:09
flailingmonkeyi wonder where the MeeGo Nokians will go... I keep waiting for someone to round up the best of Nokia's engineers and create a startup06:10
flailingmonkeybut I bet software patents would be an issue06:10
flailingmonkeyNokiaSoft vs Googmoto vs Apple, Patent Goliaths06:11
ds3really? thought Access nuked them06:11
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javispedrods3: and what happens when you nuke a company? the talent goes into a then-startup.06:14
ds3javispedro: the talent left a long time ago06:24
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RST38h"China clones iPhone, iStores, Steve Jobs" =)09:46
RST38hhttp://micgadget.com/14745/xiaomis-ceo-is-imitating-steve-jobs/09:47
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antman8969where is the innovation in china??10:07
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RST38hWho cares about innovation?10:09
RST38hNowadays, anyway...10:09
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villagerLarsN: "ayt"? no, I was sleeping a bit...10:15
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RST38hmoo wazd10:15
RST38hwazd:I think you should also get a pair of jeans and a black turtleneck10:16
RST38hwazd: YOu will do a better Jobs impersonation that the Chinese guy10:16
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RST38h11:05
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jack_lthi, tried to make an Easy Debian squeeze image for the n900, the chroot works, but can't boot lxde graphically. Any idea how to launch x from chroot?11:26
lupine_85jack_lt, just a guess, but the X server is probably listening on a socket that isn't in the chroot11:27
nzei selected a bunch of applications for install with FAM before going to bed last night, this morning i find my n900 turned off (was charging, battery full)11:27
nzeany was i can find out how far it got? i can't seem to find a dpkg.log (why is that?)11:27
lupine_85(UNIX socket)11:27
lupine_85I typically mount --bind /sys, /tmp, /proc and /dev as a matter of course in my chroots11:27
lupine_85(you've then got to ensure that $DISPLAY is sane, of course)11:28
jack_lthmm ok11:28
jack_ltI am pretty new on this, you're warned ;)11:28
lupine_85like I said, this is entirely a guess - based on non-N900 chroot/X experience11:29
jack_ltand how does such a xephyr command looks like, to start it?11:30
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jack_ltwhen I use the graphical icon, I get an message for easy lxde and that I need to click 'ok' to grab the keybd11:32
jack_ltbut then the screen turns black11:32
lupine_85sounds like you need more help than I can give11:33
* jack_lt has financial problems too11:34
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vi__if I delete genfstab.awk can I use my own static fstab?12:10
robbiethe1stMake sure you're backed up before you try it12:10
vi__robbiethe1st: I have just taken delivery of a brand spanking new N90012:10
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vi__I want to get the filesystem *perfect* before I install all my shit12:11
vi__Can I for example delete the .maps directory from Mydocs, re create it on /opt then mount bind it into Mydocs?12:12
vi__or is there some fat32 thing that I dont know about?12:13
vi__heres one.  Do you think I could install grub onto Mydocs and use the N900 as a USB boot device for a PC?12:14
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robbiethe1stthe latter one... I don't know. I don't think so, though - the filesystem module exposes a "fake" MBR etc...12:19
robbiethe1stBooting off the SD card, however is definitely possible12:19
vi__robbiethe1st: just found a video on youtube pf some bro booting buntu mint12:20
robbiethe1stYes. Just install it to your SD card and it'll work12:20
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vi__...interesting12:20
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vi__now, what is the best distro to boot?12:21
robbiethe1stNo clue, but you can use MultiSystem and boot any number of distros12:23
vi__I know.12:23
robbiethe1stI'd go with Debian XFCE or LXDE12:23
robbiethe1stlightweight = quicker boot12:23
vi__what would be kinky would be repartitioning and flashing another N900 form an N900.12:23
vi__robbiethe1st: almost certainly, however I dont want a general purpose distro.  Just somthing that will allow me to fix filesystems/re-partition/burn CDs/dump disk images of broken partitions/connect to the web.12:25
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JaffaMorning, all12:26
robbiethe1stI would go with Debian LXDE or Puppy, then install the bits you need12:26
robbiethe1stthat way you have the tools *you* want/need12:26
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kerioi'd go with sysrescuecd12:27
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pavilxde is better than xfce12:46
kerioROX-Desktop > else12:47
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inzfvwm & xterm should me enough for everyone12:50
keriorox is a great idea12:50
kerionot a new idea12:50
keriobut a great idea12:51
kerioautomagical application bundles and stuff12:51
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xnt14Does anyone know how to get NAT Transversal working on 3G for something useful like ssh?13:11
djszapiwith own kernel I guess13:11
djszapioops wrong channel, sorry :)13:12
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xnt14This script works on my vps, but doesn't on T-Mobile's 3G network... http://www.rubyinside.com/skype-style-firewall-busting-with-ruby-and-udp-399.html13:15
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ShadowJKis it any different on 3g than other NATs?13:17
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chem|stShadowJK: isn't it an ISP problem in that case?13:19
xnt14ShadowJK: It seems so. The script works even on one of the servers at work, but not on the N900.13:20
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ShadowJKchem|st, yes?13:21
xnt14well, T-Mobile probably won't let me open any ports even if I called their support number..13:21
ShadowJKI mean, if your ISP puts you behind a NAT, that's definitely the ISP restricting your internet connectivity13:21
ShadowJKit's not about "opening ports", if you're behind NAT you don't have an IP address13:22
xnt14ShadowJK: AFAIK, most mobile carriers put you behind a NAT13:22
xnt14AT&T US does the same... not sure about the other providors13:22
ShadowJKCould be13:22
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xnt14Any way around it?13:23
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xnt14ShadowJK: does your carrier put you behind a NAT?13:23
ShadowJKno13:23
xnt14Which carrier? not in the US I presume?13:23
ShadowJKno not in the US13:23
ShadowJKthat script will never work for ssh13:24
xnt14ShadowJK: true, but it's a start.13:24
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xnt14still curious, which carrier do you have?13:25
ShadowJKSaunalahti/Elisa in Finland13:25
ShadowJKthey give out seemingly unlimited number of public IPs with no NAT13:25
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xnt14Ah. Nice. American carriers aren't so generous....13:25
ShadowJKFor example I can have N900 itself on 3g with its own IP, and share internet connectivity over bluetooth to my laptop, and my laptop gets its own public IP with no NAT :P13:26
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xnt14I could just run autossh on my N900 to my server, but that will drain battery.13:26
xnt14ShadowJK: my laptop just gets another NAT'd IP. >_>13:26
ShadowJKI actually use openvpn to my server. iirc I've got it configured for 30s keep-alives, which does reduce battery life on 2g to about a day13:27
xnt14I wonder if T-Mobile is still offering their ipv6 trial... they probably are giving out public IPs on that.13:28
xnt14ShadowJK: I keep my N900 on 3G, which does get better battery life when it's idle, but if I do anything that's bandwidth-intensive, the battery goes rapidly.13:29
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xnt14Hmm... http://maemo-experience.blogspot.com/2010/01/n900-hack-dynamic-dns-update.html13:30
xnt14I think I actually hate T-Mobile now. :P13:30
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DocScrutinizerxnt14: actually bandwidth isn't the issue with 3G, it's frequency of transaction entities. Each data transfer, whether in or out, causes some heavy penalty on power consumption, i.e. bites out a certain chunk of energy from your battery13:35
Malin_Is there a way to run android-apps in maemo?13:35
DocScrutinizerxnt14: this is because on 3G the TX will stay active for some time even after sending/receiving a singley byte13:36
DocScrutinizersee http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption#2G_data.2C_short_pings ff13:37
xnt14DocScrutinizer: So even running something that's very bandwidth-efficient would still kill the battery?13:37
DocScrutinizeryes13:37
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mecewait13:38
DocScrutinizerunless transfers are bundled and occur only occasionally, in chunks13:38
mecehowcome it get ~100% better battery life while online on messengers with 2g?13:38
mece100% is not an exaggeration13:38
DocScrutinizermece: see my explanation above13:39
Siceloxnt14: did u consider reverse ssh?13:39
xnt14DocScrutinizer: I see...13:40
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meceselvä13:40
DocScrutinizerunlike 3G the 2G energy consumption has no penalty for starting a TX event. Rather on 2G energy consumption is rather proportional to data volume transferred13:40
meceDocScrutinizer, nice..13:40
xnt14Sicelo: yes, but I would prefer a public IP. I can't reverse ssh to a school computer for example..13:40
meceok how long is the 3g stayalive time?13:40
xnt14DocScrutinizer: so autossh on 2G would have much better battery life, right?13:41
SpeedEvilIt depends if it kicks up into 3.513:41
SpeedEvilIf not, a few seconds13:41
DocScrutinizertwo levels, one in the (sub)second range, the other like several seconds13:41
meceI catually need to know this because I'm developing a thing that needs to poll over http13:41
SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption13:41
meces/catually/actually/13:41
infobotmece meant: I actually need to know this because I'm developing a thing that needs to poll over http13:41
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Termanagood morning13:42
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SpeedEvilHow often poll?13:43
DocScrutinizerTermana: moin13:43
SpeedEvilAnd how much data13:43
SpeedEvilYou need to be quiet for over 10s before you get much power saving from 3g13:44
meceSpeedEvil, let's say the data would be regular http headers + say 100 bytes or so.13:44
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SpeedEvil60s will probably get around 15mA - 1%/hour use.13:44
meceit's a hash and gps coordinates in text format13:44
SpeedEvilHow often?13:44
mecefast. 1-5s13:45
SpeedEvilThat's going to hurt13:45
mecethat's ok.13:45
chem|stbigtime!13:45
SpeedEvilYou're looking at 20% or so an hour on 3G13:45
meceit's meant for short periods13:45
DocScrutinizeralso keep in mind TCP is a protocol with handshake (and GPRS afaik has its own handshake for all data), so even receiving data cranks up your GSM TX to send the ACK/whatever13:45
mecei'd say 5-15 minutes max13:45
SpeedEvilThen it's not an issue13:45
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DocScrutinizerhah, not an issue?13:46
mecelol13:46
DocScrutinizerI'd guess 4..8 times 15min eats thru your battery13:46
mecea stream would be better, but that complicates things13:46
chem|stSpeedEvil: in big cities with reliable 3G network, if the network is just a bit weak you get 40% drain in an hour without pwsaving13:46
chem|st2h SIP talk was my max with freshly charged bat13:48
chem|stwhen it was new...13:48
DocScrutinizer(handshake, TX) especially nice when you got public IP and nothing stops random far ends to ping your device. Each ping will bite a chunk out of your battery life13:48
SpeedEvilAdmittedly, IIRC my tests were done with a good 3G signal.13:48
SpeedEvilThough about as far from 'city' as you can get.13:48
chem|stSpeedEvil: that was with good signal...13:49
SpeedEvil2h SIP uses the higher power mode, and will be of the order of 1/4/hour13:49
SpeedEvilThe above do not count CPU activity beyond bare minimums13:50
chem|stk13:50
xnt14Signing up for the T-Mobile ipv6 trial. :)13:51
chem|stwould guess like DocScrutinizer to have 4-8 times 15mins possible with any 3g signal13:51
SpeedEvilmece: Why are you doing this - rather than polling less often?13:51
xnt14This way, I'll get a public ipv6 IP. which is better than a NATed ip.13:52
DocScrutinizerxnt14: [2011-08-19 12:48:42] <DocScrutinizer> (handshake, TX) especially nice when you got public IP and nothing stops random far ends to ping your device. Each ping will bite a chunk out of your battery life13:54
xnt14Now I just need to run my router through an ipv6 tunnel broker....13:55
DocScrutinizerxnt14: a very special DoS attack. Just ping your IP to see device go down with flat battery after 90min13:55
xnt14DocScrutinizer: I don't mind. I can always switch to the ipv4 APN...13:56
DocScrutinizernot with flat battery :-D13:56
DocScrutinizerso stating a publicly visible IP is always better than NAT is just incorrect13:56
xnt14I usually keep my N900 plugged in... battery life during conference calls is terrible anyways.13:57
DocScrutinizermhm13:57
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xnt14I'm willing to accept the risks of having a public IP....13:57
DocScrutinizeranyway bbl o/13:57
* DocScrutinizer heads off to fix some borked PC of some 'customer'13:58
xnt14Bye...13:58
xnt14I should go to sleep now. I've been up all night and I have to wake up in an hour..13:59
xnt14Good 'night', everyone.13:59
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crashanddieSo, the community has lost roughly 40% of its contributors14:14
crashanddieThere are no devices planned14:14
crashanddieNo new OS planned for the current devices.14:14
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crashanddieYet, we still want a new council?14:15
crashanddieWhatfor, exactly?14:15
crashanddieDiscussing with Nokia? Pfffff.14:15
crashanddieUniting the community? Pfffff.14:15
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RST38hmoo all14:19
RST38hBTW, HP is [finally] kaput14:19
RST38hAnd so is WebOS.14:19
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meceSpeedEvil, sorry was afk a bit. I want realtimeish position updates14:20
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RST38hWhich leaves us with what? iOS, Android, andWP14:20
flailingmonkeyRIM14:21
flailingmonkeybada14:21
RST38hNo, RIM is also dead14:21
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crashanddieDoes MeeGo on the N900 or any other phone work?14:21
RST38hBada is just an asian Symbian clone14:21
flailingmonkeySymbian is like a zombie, somehow still not dead14:22
RST38hMeego is also dead btw, some people just haven't accepted it yet14:22
flailingmonkeymeego handset or all of meego14:22
RST38hSymbian will be dead as soon as all of its original managers from Nokia find new jobs14:22
psycho_oreosMeeGo apparently does work on N900, but I'm unsure of its current status with video chip acceleration. The last I checked only certain builds have proper gpu acceleration14:23
flailingmonkeywhat I mean is even with Nokia trying to kill it, Symbian is refuses to die14:24
psycho_oreosSymbian probably won't die for quite sometime, it has already gain a cult within the asian communities (note the various cloned phones running symbian with various skins on top)14:25
flailingmonkeyand they aren't going to play the Microsoft game out in Asia14:26
chouchouneRST38h: why "finally" ?14:26
psycho_oreosremember that Symbian one stage held a very large social acceptance, so these things take sometime for the markets to re-adapt. Contrary to all that, I'm sure at the rate of hacked Symbian to run on exotic phones coming out of asia may also die quite quickly as already have started picking up android for tablets.14:28
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DocScrutinizerso what's our options for a decent OS in the future? Try and turn android into a true proper Linux again?14:30
psycho_oreosturning android into proper linux isn't going to be likely. Once the purpose of the OS has been established and has been kept in that style it'll be unlikely for them to make dramatic changes14:31
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DocScrutinizeror go the "fringe path" and cling with maemo, adopt SHR?14:31
derfpsycho_oreos: "They" won't make the changes. You'd have to fork it.14:32
DocScrutinizerexactly14:32
chouchouneFusion Garage did fork Android, it's possible ...14:33
psycho_oreosderf, in that case it'll be loads of fun times ahead as well. Though I'm sure nobody here actually has a proper crystal ball to see the future of android14:33
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chouchounebut ... why not a proper Linux distribution then ...14:33
RST38hDoc: I would say, use stock Linux as the base, add Android to it14:33
RST38hDoc: as compatiblity layer14:33
DocScrutinizersounds reasonable as a first approach14:34
* RST38h strokes his crystal balls, makes a prediction about Android14:34
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chouchouneRST38h: you mean, Meego + Dalvik ? ;)14:34
DocScrutinizerwhere stock linux is any debian based distro, e.g maemo14:34
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DocScrutinizerchouchoune: sounds like our best bet to keep something decent alive14:35
flailingmonkeyAndroid meaning the kernel, and Linux meaning... the kernel?14:35
flailingmonkeydouble-kernels14:35
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RST38hNo14:35
DocScrutinizereh?14:35
RST38hLinux kernel, linux libs,linux userland14:35
psycho_oreosdealing with android doesn't actually stop there, there's also android devices with locked bootloaders, they'll probably be as much fun to hack with as what Symbian phones previously had14:35
flailingmonkeytwo kernels enter, no users win14:36
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DocScrutinizerwith alien-dalvik on top14:36
RST38hJust dalvik and android java libs on top14:36
RST38hkinda like an emulator14:36
flailingmonkeythen say dalvik, there isn't anything android about that :p14:36
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flailingmonkeyandroid is either kernel, or UX14:36
flailingmonkeyand then a few shitty apps :p ;)14:37
RST38hflaili: if you would like to discuss therminology, Wikipedia is going to be a better place than this channel14:37
RST38hmoo ab14:37
DocScrutinizerhrhrhr14:37
abRST38h,14:37
flailingmonkeythe question then returns to, what linux "userland" are you imagining14:38
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DocScrutinizerI'd be interested in general collabora* take on the whole thing14:39
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RST38hab: Have you heard it? WebOS is out. And so is HP, as a hardware manufacturer14:40
DocScrutinizerflailingmonkey: isn't that pretty obvious? a "clean" userland, where linux still is linux14:40
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x29a_bug bummer, was suprised of how fast they killed webOS, specially with the whole html5 web bubble beeing still around14:40
* RST38h wonders if there are Carly Fiorina's voodoo dolls on the market14:40
flailingmonkeywhere the men are men, the women are men, and even the bugs are men14:41
x29a_im curious how bb's qnx will hit the market14:41
x29a_in general, they make quite decent/stable products14:41
abRST38h, Ari said they continue with WebOS full steam14:41
x29a_but on a private basis, right?14:41
flailingmonkeyi feel so bad for Ari14:42
abRST38h, apparently, Apotheker said they have options on table, including licensing.14:42
RST38hx29: it will hit the market quite aking to a spittle14:42
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abRST38h, so products are discontinued but development is not yet disbanded14:42
RST38hab: Who will license i :)14:42
RST38hit14:42
RST38h?14:42
x29a_samsung, when they get rid of bada, lol14:42
x29a_*scnr*14:42
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abRST38h, have you seen fake SElop's statement?14:42
nid0hopefully someone that can actually put it in vaguely nice hardware14:42
RST38hab: it is pretty much the same kind of "diplomacy" Nokia applied to Symbian and Meego =(14:43
RST38hab: No. His real statements are weird enough though.14:43
abhttps://twitter.com/#!/ceoStephenElop/status/10429592126057267214:44
DocScrutinizerx29a: there's this raster's linux pending from Samsung - got amazingly quiet about that thing lately. Usually raster came here (and elsewhere) on a regular schedule spreading teaser rants about that new acme OS of his/Samsung's to come RSN14:44
abAnd mjg59 from LinuxCon: "This morning's keynote was on HP's commitment to WebOS. Sucks to be that guy now."14:44
RST38hab: ahhahahaha (about ceoStephenElop twit)14:46
x29adocscrutinizer: i dont get samsung. but gazillions into promo and dev of bada, then present quite shitty OS, barely talk about it, infinit long update cycles. y oh y?14:46
RST38hPoor Ari...14:46
RST38hx29: What exactlu don't you understand?14:46
DocScrutinizeraccording to raster bada is a hickup14:47
RST38hx29: They copied Symbian APIs, with graphics stolen from iPhone, Maemo,and Android. They put the result into their feature phones14:47
RST38hx29: Because the thing is so horrible to developfor(Symbian!) nobody developed for it14:47
RST38hAlso, with all the emphasis on Android (Samsung is THE leading Android phone maker), nobody needed Bada any more.14:48
NidoI tried to develop for symbian, but they wouldn't give me a key so i could, you know, actually run the programs I code14:48
abMy feeling was always that bada is their internal attempt to level different R&D departments and give internal application developers some stable environment to run their apps regardless what OS has won particular product development14:48
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RST38hab: Maybe, but in either case it all got crumbled by the ANdroid14:49
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DocScrutinizer~seen raster14:49
infobotraster is currently on #webos-internals (1h 45m 47s) #meego (1h 45m 47s), last said: ':)'.14:49
abfrom that perspective bada totally makes sense as it started much earlier than they got to Android -- at allowed to leverage R&D designs which were developed for low end models14:49
DocScrutinizeroooooh, on #meego??14:49
x29aRST38h: why go that way in the first place? android is suitable for feature phones as well. or whatever proprietary shit they used before. i dont get why they did spend such a huge amount on bada and then let it rott to death14:49
RST38hx29a: I am sure you can answer your own question.14:50
x29aim afraid i cant, hence the "i dont udnerstand" part14:51
RST38hab: probably had a few competing departments too14:51
abRST38h, they do have, that's my understanding14:51
RST38hab: Android obviously winning because of the Samsung's overall strategy of copying stuff, not inventing it14:51
x29aRST38h: and please use your tab key to do autocomplete (full) of my nick, that way i get a highlight14:51
abRST38h, Android is winning for Samsung because they get R&D investment shared with Google and others, doing if not free ride but very close to that14:52
RST38hab: Of course14:52
RST38hab: On the other hand, all android phones look andfeel the same, so there is no brand loyalty or anything like that14:53
RST38hab: Which probably satisfies Samsung, a well known producer of generic goods14:53
RST38hBut may not satisfy others.14:53
x29aab: you dont get that feeling by copying ios/android and call it bada14:53
NidoRST38h: isn't that why "Sense UI" and such get developpd?14:53
RST38hab: that pant-pissing quote, ironically, is coming true14:54
RST38hNido: same "Sense UI" users go to such lengths to disable in favor of Android's default UI?14:54
x29aRST38h: that was for you, not ab, sorry14:55
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NidoRST38h: probably. I'm not saing it is "better", just "not generic android"14:55
nid0well, some do. sense ui is actually not that bad, compared to some skins14:55
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RST38hab: http://www.asymco.com/2011/07/29/apple-captured-two-thirds-of-available-mobile-phone-profits-in-q2/14:56
RST38hab: check out profits by Android phonemakers14:57
RST38hab: Isn't it cute, how closely they copy the profits of Android Market participants?:))14:57
abx29a, bada started much earlier than Samsung got into Android.14:58
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x29abut android was there, so it was clearly a decision someone made based on information14:58
* RST38h sighs at x29a14:58
x29ajust /ignore me14:58
RST38hObviously unaware of how corporate decisions are made14:58
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abx29a, do you know anything about mobile industry developments? :)14:59
x29ano, im an end user, obviously14:59
chouchounewhat's your point RST38h ?15:00
chouchounethere was a political fight at Samsung and the pro-android won ?15:01
chouchouneand Bada-people were let to play with their toy to avoid a clash ?15:02
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abchouchoune, Android is still not ready to go to low-end devices as Samsung understands them, this is where bada helps right now. In future many things will move Android, I'm sure. Of course, if raster wouldn't get his joker played well15:03
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chouchouneab: I'm not sure about that ... Bada participates in the global believing that Samsung can do things by itself15:04
chouchouneif Samsung keeps Bada, they can still say "we can do our own too"15:05
x29aits spread and success with the very end-users speaks for it15:05
x29aim curious how the 2.0 version will do15:05
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LarsNvillager: AYT?16:31
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ruskiehttp://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/HP-pulls-plug-on-WebOS/ <-- erm16:54
jacekowskiruskie: that was expected16:55
ruskiehttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/19/apple_samsung/ <-- you're joking right?16:56
jacekowskinope16:56
nid0I dearly hope whatever court that letter was sent to sees sense and gives apple a big giant get fucked16:57
nid0and that samsung stop all parts supplies to apple16:57
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ruskienid0, that last part would be a tad hard... contracts and all that ya know16:58
Robot101you'll probably find apple already switched suppliers before sending the letter :P16:59
nid0im sure any half decent lawyer could conjure up a force majeure clause to allow samsung to get out of the contracts when apple are suing samsung over devices using their own parts16:59
Robot101that's not force majeure16:59
nid0read what I said17:01
jacekowskiwell, contracts last only for so long17:01
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jacekowskiand after they do something like that to samsung they other manufacturers may not want to sign new one17:01
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nid0there also arent all that many manufactures going that can supply the high-value parts samsung do in the volumes they do, so apple's list of alternatives is probably thin to begin with17:02
jacekowskiTI can do it17:03
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pavidoes everyone have a very disgusting front camera on n900 ?17:08
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paviI used a app called mirror17:08
jacekowskiyeah, it's crap17:08
jacekowskinobody uses it17:08
paviPeople started teasing me saying even 90's wont have that bad camera17:08
jacekowskin900 has only one camera17:08
jacekowskifront camera17:08
jacekowskiback *17:09
jacekowskithing on the front is just a toy17:09
nid0but then, 2 years ago was around the time a lot of other smartphones didnt even include front cameras, so although it's shit at least it's there17:10
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jacekowskiit's a toy not a camera17:11
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LarsNdoes anyone know if there's an up to date set of instructions for using the extras-devel version of sync-evolution (which now supports CalDav?)17:13
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villagerLarsN: you should probably have explained what "ayt" means, anyway17:31
LarsNvillager: sorry,  Are You There :)17:31
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* LarsN made a poor assumption that the term we use in the office was in the standard lexicon :)17:31
* LarsN isn't very smart apparently.17:31
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villagerLarsN: well, I guess I'm here... (not there...)17:33
LarsNvillager: heh.  Is there an updated set of docs on how to "start from nothing" and end up with a working caldav sync?17:34
LarsNa lot of the things I'm reading date back over a year, and it's obvious things have changed quite a bit.17:34
villagerLarsN: have you installed the syncevolution-frontend also? makes stuff easier (provided it works)17:35
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LarsNvillager: I have not.  I suppose I can do that now though :)17:35
villagerthere was a new syncevolution release yesterday with some caldav bugfixes, I suppose i'll try to put that into extras-devel soon17:36
villagerbut you can set it up now anyway17:36
LarsNI'll grab the front end and see if that makes life somewhat less confusing17:36
LarsNvillager: that should sync with google calendars as well as things like SOGo I'd assume?17:37
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nid0if you just want google calendar sync, erminig's prolly the easiest option17:37
villagerLarsN: yeah, the frontend gives you a nice gui and a helpful wizard for setting up syncml and caldav stuff17:38
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villagerLarsN: there's a google calendar template the wizard allows you to use, yes17:38
LarsNawesome.17:38
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LarsNI'll let you know if I run into any strange problems once I get things updated enough to install.17:39
edheldilvillager:  what is the best option to use iCal files available over https and webdav?17:42
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villagernid0: I think he wanted other caldav servers as well (SOGo)... can erminig handle those, or just google?17:43
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nid0it's just google unfortunately17:44
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edheldilany chance for just iCal files? I use them with Thunderbird ...17:48
villageredheldil: on n900, I guess the syncevolution (version 1.1.99.x) is the only option I know of for webdav17:48
edheldilthank you17:48
villageredheldil: for just ical over https, I don't know of any way to do it17:50
villager(well, the syncevolution command-line interface has a way of importing an ical, I think, but it's not the most elegant way...)17:51
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edheldilvillager:  it's webdav over https sorry. So no problem17:52
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LarsNnothing quite like sym linking /var/cache/apt/archives to /media/mmc1/archives so you can dist-upgrade19:26
LarsNlots of left over cruft from previous installs.  I suppose I should have done the two step re-flash.19:26
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javispedrodist-upgrade to what?19:29
javispedroyou should not dist-upgrade maemo19:29
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casketizerprolly not the best chan to ask this....but here goes19:34
casketizeranyone got an opinion whats better....geforce 555m or ati hd 6550 ?19:34
casketizertryin to decide on new lapdog19:34
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psycho_oreoswhy don't you try asking that in ##hardware channel?19:45
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Primeshi i have a problem with apps / repository on maemo20:02
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fusihaha20:04
fusin8 or e7 is what nokia care will replace my n900 with20:04
fusiif i send it in for repair20:05
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fusif... that.20:05
casketizerusb ?20:06
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fusiyep20:06
casketizer;(20:06
Sicelosomeone, lupine_85, was able to get them to give him an N900 :)20:06
NIN101some people here demanded an N900, and got one finally. Other take the N8 or E7 and sell it and rebuy an N900.20:06
casketizeryea id take e7 buy 2 n90020:06
fusiwell i sure as shit aint gona be fobbed off with sdome lesser device20:06
lupine_85fusi, they will replace it with an N90020:07
lupine_85you just have to insist20:07
fusithanks, will do20:07
lupine_85and potentially threaten small claims20:07
Primesdemand it. or sell the n8 get n90020:07
lupine_85don't do that20:07
fusii will demand20:07
casketizeru can get 400-500eu for new e720:07
fusiwant a working n90020:07
lupine_85if you accept->sell->buy, you could well end up with one lacking any warranty at all20:07
casketizerbuys u 2- refurbished n90020:07
fusinot a sdecond hand one either20:07
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casketizer2+20:07
lupine_85so when it breaks later, you're left with no remedy20:08
NIN101E7 on amazon.de : 360 €, don't think so casketizer.20:08
fusicalling them again now20:08
lupine_85fusi, are you in the EU?20:08
fusiuk20:08
lupine_85good stuff20:08
lupine_85you're covered by a 2-year european limited warranty20:08
casketizeri sold one for 427 on egay 2-3weeks ago20:08
fusipretty sure we've got laws for this sort of stuff yea20:09
lupine_85it stipulates a repair or replacement within a reasonable timeframe20:09
lupine_85*on top* of your SoGA rights20:09
lupine_85important is that it's just "replacement"20:09
Primesi was installing apps with fast app mgr. out of disk hung it. now ndg is half installed. app man cant remove it. fapman wants to update it but then hangs. aptget remove or purge can't lose it either. ideas?20:09
fusimmm20:09
casketizerthey can give u an equivalent if they are out of n900, no law will help u there20:09
lupine_85http://europe.nokia.com/support/repair-and-recycle/european-limited-warranty20:09
fusie7 is not an equivalent20:09
casketizerand for them e7>n90020:09
lupine_85casketizer, as long as it's actually an equivalent, that's fine20:09
Primesif they cant replace it try ask for cheque20:10
lupine_85to be an equivalent, it would need to be running maemo, and have a hardware keyboard20:10
casketizerdream on20:10
lupine_85casketizer, I did this earlier this month20:10
lupine_85I have a new N900 from nokia care as a result20:10
casketizereu laws are not that good when it comes hard on hard20:10
Primesask them for equivalent n950 lol20:10
lupine_85this is a warranty20:10
fusiwhere r u lupine_85 ? france20:11
fusi?20:11
lupine_85UK20:11
fusi ah20:11
fusifolloiwng ur lead20:11
lupine_85casketizer, would you accept a washing machine as a replacement for a washer-dryer?20:11
fusi2secs nokia on phone20:11
lupine_85just on the grounds that it's a newer model?20:11
lupine_85if it's missing advertised features, it is not a replacement20:11
casketizerwell if u get nokia to give u an n900 fine, but dont assume u can win in any eu court if they say they have none and offer u an e720:11
fusiwhat if id bought thousands of poundsworth of software for the n900 ;p20:11
fusiwhere weould i be then eh20:12
lupine_85casketizer, of course you could win in court20:12
casketizerdream on20:12
lupine_85it's very clear-cut, merely on the terms of the warranty they've agreed20:12
lupine_85casketizer, so would you accept a washing machine as a replacement for a washer-dryer?20:12
casketizerread the fine print20:12
lupine_85I did20:12
lupine_85I read the whole thing carefully20:12
casketizerthere are avaiabilityx excuses in the warranty20:12
lupine_85nowhere is "replacement" made into "replacement at nokia's discretion"20:12
lupine_85read it yourself20:13
casketizeri did20:13
lupine_85so refer to me a paragraph20:13
lupine_85because we obviously have differeing views on what it says20:13
lupine_85fusi, my case ended up being referred to their escalations, who referred it to their manager, who got an N90020:13
casketizeri dont have it handy and im too lazy to look it up...20:14
lupine_85and as the Nokia guy in escalations said, casketizer, "you're entirely in the right, I won't try to argue"20:14
lupine_85casketizer, I linked to it a couple of minutes ago20:14
casketizerbut i have seem them actually win such cases. i used to work in customer protection20:14
lupine_85casketizer, so link me to the relevant case law20:14
casketizerlupine i read it in german20:15
lupine_85I can translate20:15
lupine_85link me20:15
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lupine_85they have a simple legal obligation to provide a replacement, and it's easy - trivial - to demonstrate that an E7 is not a replacement for an E720:15
casketizerim not gonna send u /dev/bull. believe what u must....20:15
lupine_85erm, N90020:15
casketizer./dev/null20:15
casketizerlol20:15
lupine_85casketizer, you seem to be avoiding the washer / washer-dryer analogy20:15
lupine_85maybe you could expand on whether you'd accept the washing machine or not20:15
psycho_oreoslupine_85, are you also available on the tmo forum? there's a bloke on the forum whom lives in UK and I don't know if he has any chance of getting his N900 back or a replacement N900: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7589920:15
casketizerim avoiding the whole argument20:15
Primesyou were in a close protection team? or as in mafia protection racket20:16
psycho_oreosand at this point in time casketizer is doing nothing more than spreading FUD20:16
lupine_85psycho_oreos, I do20:16
lupine_85I shall respond20:16
Primesi would accept a new fitted kitchen20:17
psycho_oreoslupine_85, just giving you a heads up :) I don't live in the UK so I don't know what laws do apply over there :)20:17
casketizerthere have been long discussions on tmo on this subject. read there. im not gonna start it over here20:17
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Primesany idea how to fix my fapman hanging problem?20:18
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psycho_oreosrecall and undo what you did last?20:18
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Primeslast i used fapman to install apps but ran out of disk space.20:19
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Primesappman cant remove it. fapman wants to update it but cant20:20
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Primesi made plenty space by uninstall some games20:20
psycho_oreoshmm I think I've ran into a similar issue but I didn't have fapman hanging, it just fails to work or something.20:20
Primesi was asked to do a dpkg --configure -a20:21
psycho_oreosHAM can't remove what?20:21
Primesthat made appman happy20:21
psycho_oreosyeah and did you do that?20:21
Primesndg is the troublesome app20:21
psycho_oreosndg?20:21
Primessome nokia data entry thing20:22
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Primeslike use your nokia for data entry form filling. i guess like surveys in the street20:23
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psycho_oreoshmm ok and so you've removed some games, have you checked to see how much free space you have left in both rootfs and /home/opt?20:25
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Primesyes plenty20:27
psycho_oreoshow much exactly is plenty?20:28
DocScrutinizercasketizer: if you're too lazy to prove your point, then please STFU20:28
Primesnrg is about 10 mb. i cleared over 15020:28
Primesndg is listed in appmgr but refuse to uninstall20:29
psycho_oreosso you tried to manually uninstall?20:29
Primesin fapman it is not shown as install or uninstall. but when i update any app it adds the nrg update and hangs trying20:30
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psycho_oreosI meant manually uninstalling by using command line tools like apt-get, dpkg, etc20:30
Primesaptget remove or purge cant either20:31
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Primeshow to remove using dpkg?20:31
psycho_oreosand its reasons? use pastebin if its more than 3 lines20:31
Primesaptget says: the pacage ndg needs to be reinstalled but i cant find an archive for it20:33
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Primesfapman may have more repos configured20:34
psycho_oreosso try reinstalling it (no need to find the archive for it) and then uninstall it20:34
Primesso i try apt get install ndg20:34
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Primesgives identical to previous msg20:35
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lupine_85http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1073196&posted=1#post1073196 :)20:40
psycho_oreosenable extras-devel in HAM, reload, and then install ndg from there20:40
lupine_85a guy I work with has also sent his N900 in for repair20:40
lupine_85so it'll be interesting to see if they try to fob him off or not20:40
psycho_oreoswhoa, long post :)20:41
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lupine_85fusi, do let us know how you get on20:41
lupine_85once therew20:41
lupine_85once there* are two validated successes, someone should update wikipedia to reflect it20:41
* lupine_85 is somewhat verbose at times, it must be said20:42
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psycho_oreosbetter to be verbose (and long winded) than to be as quiet as possible and leave people wondering ;)20:43
lupine_85:p20:43
luke-jrAES is broken: http://packetstormsecurity.org/news/view/19719/AES-Crypto-Compromised-By-Groundbreaking-Attack.html20:44
lupine_85anyway, I am very happy with my new N90020:44
lupine_85it's just a shame nokia aren't continuing on this path with this kind of hardware+software combination20:45
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luke-jrnew?20:45
luke-jrhow can N900 be new? :P20:45
lupine_85not preowned == new20:45
luke-jrlupine_85: someone will pick it up again someday20:45
lupine_85even if it was constructed a year ago20:45
luke-jr… in 5 years :|20:45
lupine_85this'll probably end up in my car, and I'll end up using a tablet + bluetooth headset20:45
lupine_85or something20:45
lupine_85I hardly ever make calls anyway20:45
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psycho_oreoslol instead of 1 trillion years to break a strong AES cryptography, it'll now take what 20 billion years instead? ;)20:50
psycho_oreoserr s/20/200/20:51
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Primesif there is some flaw we will exploit it20:54
Primeswe seived some big rsa crypto20:54
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Primeshelp me kill a process please. i see the pid in top or htop20:55
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, fyi you'll enjoy this :D http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=107235920:56
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psycho_oreosthere's a button called `k' you hit it and depending on which you use you get asked to either input or select which signal20:56
fusiPrimes: kill [pid]20:56
fusiiirc?20:57
fusior killall name20:57
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psycho_oreosactually correction, top doesn't do that, it seems like its broken under maemo, but htop still functions normally20:58
psycho_oreosfusi, there's also pkill20:58
Primesi know k key in top in opensuse but seems not working here20:58
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fusitype it in a copnsole window20:58
psycho_oreosI've noted that, use htop instead20:59
* angelox|laptop says wow!,cause he needs put a small paper in back of the his n900 battery to the device don't turn off!21:01
psycho_oreosthat didn't make sense21:01
psycho_oreosmaybe you meant to say that you placed a small piece of paper in the back of your N900 near the battery compartment to prevent the device from turning off?21:02
angelox|laptopyes!21:02
angelox|laptopbad english,very sorry! :(21:03
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Primesok killed the fapman thanks21:04
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psycho_oreosit sounds like you've been taking your battery out too many times, hence the battery has a loose fitting on the N900. Its probably similar to my case with my old N95-121:04
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SpeedEvilangelox|laptop: Take a flat-bladed tiny screwdriver. Gently press both sides of the battery contact in a  little21:05
SpeedEvilOn the battery21:05
psycho_oreoshmm I otoh should also try doing that with the battery on my N95-1 lol21:06
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angelox|laptopSpeedEvil: Ok!21:10
angelox|laptopA Swiss Army Knife helps too?21:11
psycho_oreosthat'd might be an overkill, you only needed a tiny flat head screwdriver anyway21:12
angelox|laptoppress in this way? --> <--- ?21:12
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angelox|laptopthat's kind of hard to do :)21:13
SpeedEvilangelox|laptop: yes - like that21:15
SpeedEvilIt doesn't take much force21:15
SpeedEvilit's tiny thin metal.21:15
angelox|laptoplet me try boot21:19
lupine_85fusi, success ?21:19
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angelox|laptopSpeedEvil: Worked,thanks,i did use a needle! :-)21:20
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SpeedEvilangelox|laptop: :)21:20
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angelox|laptopI hope i don't need remove the battery again :-)21:21
DocScrutinizerangelox|laptop: pinpoint knife is just fine21:23
DocScrutinizeraah needle, also OK21:24
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DocScrutinizerthose spring grips aren't really sturdy21:25
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angelox|laptopyes,them are hard to move21:27
angelox|laptopso i guess all that battery problem i had was due that battery issue21:28
DocScrutinizerquite possible21:28
DocScrutinizera poor battery contact can cause literally all sorts of weird behaviour21:28
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DocScrutinizerand those contacts HAVE to be really low parasitary resistance, as battery is supposed to deliver heavy spikes of current for GSM TX, like several Ampere21:30
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* lupine_85 is going to scan and upload the letter he got back from nokia, in case it's useful for anyone else21:32
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lupine_85"you did it last week, why not today?" is a surprisingly good argument21:32
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marmoutelupine_85: whar's this letter ?21:34
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lupine_85marmoute, the one dated 15th august where nokia say "we've replaced your n900 with an n900"21:42
lupine_85that'll probably be enough for someone (else - WP:OR applies) to update wikipedia21:43
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DocScrutinizerWPwhat?21:46
SpeedEvilOriginal Research.21:46
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SpeedEvilYou're only supposed to put stuff you have sources for in wikipedia.21:46
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DocScrutinizeraah21:46
DocScrutinizerthnx21:46
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SpeedEvilWhich can lead to terrible pages.21:49
SpeedEvilhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paper_battery&oldid=37424651721:49
SpeedEvilFor example - is the synthesis of several nontechnical sources reporting and speculating on an item.21:49
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SpeedEvilI sort of fixed that, it was too terrible.21:49
DocScrutinizer:-D21:50
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vi__chOWNAGE21:54
vi__I am having severe difficulty installing cssu21:55
vi__I install the installer21:55
vi__but it doesnt show up in the menu!21:55
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lupine_85http://lupine.me.uk/img/nokia-n900-replacement.png21:56
nid0did you have much of a fight to get that?21:58
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lupine_85not really21:59
vi__should I add the cssu repo manualy?21:59
lupine_85two conversations with the people at the service centre, one with the main care point call centre, then two with escalations21:59
lupine_85simple, polite refusal to accept less than they were legally obliged to give at all states was sufficient22:00
lupine_85I didn't even have to issue a letter before action, as I told them I was perfectly willing to do (and I was)22:00
vi__what would you have done if they said 'we have nae 'n900s left son, how aout a refund?'22:01
lupine_85I'd have taken the £50022:01
vi__oooh yeah22:01
lupine_85that's perfectly fine, and within their rights22:01
javispedrothey would never give you a refound22:01
lupine_85that's what they said22:01
javispedro*refund22:01
vi__buy a NEW N900 on ebay for that AND get a shit load of change22:01
lupine_85I said "it's a replacement, repair or refund". they said "we don't do refunds"22:01
lupine_85I said: "Have you heard of statutory rights?"22:01
lupine_85company policy is not always legal. it's worth remembering22:02
nid0they would in response to a letter from a solicitor22:02
javispedroat most they would have told you, "we are out of n900s. wanna wait or want the n8?"22:02
vi__you said 'have you heard of n950?'22:02
lupine_85javispedro, no, what they said was "you're in the right, we'll do our best to get you an n900 within a commerically reasonable timescale, which expires in 1 week"22:02
javispedroafter which we force the n8 down your throath.22:03
lupine_85no. if they'd not been able to get an N900 within that timescale, they would probably have refunded rather than try to defend their position in court22:03
lupine_85not least because their position is indefensible22:03
nid0well at that point i'd have hand delivered a letter from my solicitor and small claims summons to them, thetford's not far from here22:04
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lupine_85nid0, letter before action is always polite22:04
lupine_85followed by a summons a week later22:04
lupine_85and it gets results22:04
javispedrolupine_85: they do not have to refund22:04
lupine_85javispedro, if they're in breach of contract and it goes to the courts, it's up to the courts to decide what the appropriate remedy is22:05
javispedrowhich probably is to pay you $5 in damages22:05
lupine_85not even close :)22:05
lupine_85at the point where you reject the E7, nokia has already admitted a liability of £50022:05
javispedroplus, if you go to the courts you start that show of "it was not a defect"22:06
nid0theyve already admitted defect liability22:06
lupine_85no, Nokia have already conceeded that it is a defect at the point where they offer an N822:06
nid0by offering the replacement22:06
lupine_85why are you so eager to deny nokia's legal obligations?22:06
lupine_85Nokia themselves have told me that I am right and they were wrong22:06
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lupine_85and they sent me an N900 as a direct consequence22:07
* javispedro notes: as I said.22:07
lupine_85also, the speed with which they were able to acquire an N900 - and the pristine condition it's in - suggests to me that they're not actually out of stock at all, they just have an internal policy of trying to get people off them22:08
lupine_85not that I can substantiate it beyond that, of course22:08
nox-or they bought back stock from shops?22:08
nid0I had heard not long ago that nokia were buying back unsold stock from retailers to try to fulfill warranties22:09
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nox-:)22:09
lupine_85that'd be a bit odd for them to do unless they can buy it back at less than the retail price22:09
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lupine_85obviously, their future warranty obligations are reduced by doing it22:09
vi___I put my old n900 into the repair shop today22:09
lupine_85since if they'd given me £500, I would have bought a new N900 with a new 2 year warranty22:09
* ruskie knocks on wood... his n900 is still working rock solid22:09
nid0if the retailers arent expecting to shift them, buyback price probably wasnt much/any more than their original trade cost22:10
DocScrutinizerlook it's so simple: Nokia produced X units N900, they sold 90% and kept 10% for the anticipated RMA. It turned out they were wrong as RMA is maybe 30%, so now Nokia is short on N900. They send a paper to all help desks with instructions to try and replace N900 by sth they are *not* short on, to keep the remaining devices for the customers that are _not_ happy about getting some _real_ phone in swap for that crappy N90022:10
vi___I was trying to explain there is a hardware problem, GPIO113 is spazzing out.  THe only way to stop it is to change the permissions on the device file in /sys22:10
lupine_85DocScrutinizer, so pushing back is the solution22:10
lupine_85...if true22:11
vi___and the dude was like '...so uh the lock doesnt work?'22:11
lupine_8530% seems pretty high!22:11
nid0those are obv made-up figures22:11
vi___it is so frustrating trying to tell tech support what the problem is without looking like a total ass hat22:11
nid0it could as easily be 0.5% and 2%22:11
lupine_85nid0, well, in my local circle of N900 owners (sample size: 4) it is 50%22:11
ruskievi___, I more or less gave up on explaining to service people what exactly the problem is22:11
lupine_85but that's too small a sample to be useful22:11
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nid0my device is 18 months old and still flawless22:12
vi___well good for you sunshine22:12
ruskienid0, same here22:12
lupine_85this is where having a friend who works in the place is useful22:12
nid0im the only person I actually know personally who owns one22:12
nid0so its 0% failure for me :p22:12
ruskieit'll be 2 years december 4th22:12
lupine_85nid0, our workplace is N900 central22:12
DocScrutinizerand if a lot of customers insist in N900 replacements, Nokia *might* be urged to manufacture another batch of brand new N90022:12
lupine_854 out of 12 stagg have N900s22:12
vi___n900, not for noobz22:12
lupine_85staff*22:12
nid0oh that said, I know a couple of ex-symbian staff that had n900;s22:12
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nid0dunno what happened to them tho22:13
vi___lupine, what the f** you work as?22:13
lupine_85(the remainder are a mix of iphone and android)22:13
lupine_85vi___, I write code for an ISP22:13
vi___aah, techies22:13
lupine_85at the moment, we're basically writing another vmware: http://bigv.io/22:13
vi___aah, trekkies22:13
lupine_85:p22:13
lupine_85they're good phones22:13
nid0gutted that there're so many n950's going to waste though :<22:14
lupine_85well22:14
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lupine_85the phone part is terrible22:14
vi___nid0: yeah, no shit22:14
lupine_85but who uses that?22:14
lupine_85:p22:14
vi___A whole bunch of naabz have turned up on TMO asking retarded questions22:14
nid0I more meant the ones that are still kicking about doing nothing at nokia22:14
vi___oh, ok22:15
vi___what is hawaii and how the fck did he get one?22:15
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vi___no disrespect to the guy, just wondering.22:16
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vi___ffs22:19
vi___#I am trying to install CSSU22:19
vi___for n90022:20
vi___I add the repo22:20
vi___I install community22:20
vi___community-ssu-enabler22:20
vi___it runs22:20
vi___but it does not appear!22:20
vi___can somone provide some guidance?22:21
vi___it doesnt even create a .desktop file22:22
vi___that I can look at to see what it is supposed to eecute22:22
vi___^execute22:22
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vi___is anyone here familiar with the cssu installer?22:24
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vi___what is it's post-inst script supposed to do?22:25
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vi___anyone?22:27
nid0no clue22:28
DocScrutinizer/join #maemo-ssu22:28
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vi___-_-22:32
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DocScrutinizermohammad is offline it seems. He'd probably one of the guys that could actually help22:39
DocScrutinizervi___: cssu is known to bork on a number of non-standard system configs. Esp if you replaced some system stuff that in turn introduces dependency conflicts22:41
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DocScrutinizervi___: sorry I never really wrapped my head around how CSSU installer hackerish is cooked22:42
DocScrutinizersth along the line apt-get can't edit repository list, and so can't HAM22:42
DocScrutinizerso you install and start a installer (the icon) which in turn edits repo list and then starts HAM again22:43
DocScrutinizers/HAM/apt-get (maybe)/22:44
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: so you install and start a installer (the icon) which in turn edits repo list and then starts apt-get (maybe) again22:44
vi___yes that would appear to be the case22:44
vi___however sweet f'all seems to exist in the cssu repos22:45
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