IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2011-08-07

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DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: any fast Vbat AD already?00:15
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sevardvaldyn_ cehteh  I'm looking for a phone with a _real_ gps chip.  Apparently a-gps will only work with a mobile data connection and the phone I'm looking for needs to 1) have a real gps chip 2) cheap 3) run endomondo 4) have no mobile subscription00:26
cehtehsevard: any agps can work in gps only mode, but some do that rather poorly00:27
cehtehwhat kind of application, why dont you use an external usb or bluetooth gps dongle, these are cheap00:27
jacekowskisevard: no00:27
sevardit looks like the sirf III chips do it very well00:27
jacekowskisevard: it will work without mobile data00:28
jacekowskisevard: these are same chips00:28
sevardcehteh: I'm looking for a means to track several runners via gps00:28
cehtehsirf iii wont be in cell phone00:28
jacekowskisevard: + they have agps capability00:28
sevardjacekowski: but from what I read a-gps only works with a mobile subscriptoin00:28
jacekowskisevard: yes00:28
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jacekowskisevard: but these chips are fully functional standalone gps chips00:28
jacekowskisevard: that can work in assisted mode00:28
cehtehagps is only software .. but you can make the receivers used for agps cheaper, substitute that by software00:28
sevardMy ultimate goal was to find a phone that works very well without a mobile subscription and give it to several runners to help us track our runs00:29
javispedrobuy a handheld gps00:29
cehtehsirf 3 is good but not cheap and iirc no cell phone uses that00:29
jacekowskisevard: only thing is that with phones you have smaller antennas00:29
tank-manare you runners going to be making phone calls?00:29
tank-manyoure00:29
sevardtank-man: no00:29
jacekowskisevard: and signal that gets to the gps chip is much weaker00:29
sevardhttp://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=GB5mpZJt00:29
cehtehoften gps is integrated in the broadband chipset00:29
jacekowskisevard: so it's harder for that chip to get a lock00:29
sevardthese are all of the phones that support endomondo, but if i could find a phone that already tracks gps coordinates with time stamps and outputs in gpx that would suffice00:30
jacekowskisevard: because without assist it means it has to recieve clear signal for few minutes00:30
DocScrutinizeryay00:30
sevardjacekowski: i understand that00:30
cehtehsevard: whats that list?00:30
cehtehah00:30
DocScrutinizer~gsm-agps00:30
infoboti heard rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP00:30
sevardI've been looking through all the nokias on tha tlist and they seem, so far, to only support agps00:30
jacekowskisevard: if you get any phone, remove sim from it and disable gsm00:30
tank-mansevard, http://www.qstarz.com/Products/GPS%20Products/BT-Q1000.html00:31
jacekowskisevard: it's only addon00:31
cehtehwhat is endomondo?00:31
jacekowskisevard: it's fully standalone gps00:31
jacekowskisevard: with assist capabilities00:31
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cehtehcan you run the software somewhere else?00:31
sevardcehteh: endomondo is a gps tracking applicatoin00:31
DocScrutinizersevard: a gps in GSM will *allways* be agps00:31
cehtehhey there are thousands track logging apps00:31
DocScrutinizersee ~gsm-agps00:31
cehtehwhy do you need that?00:31
jacekowskisevard: you get any of these and leave it with clear sky and with disabled gsm00:31
jacekowskisevard: and it will get lock after 10-20 minutes00:31
DocScrutinizerand *every* agps also works without "a"00:32
cehtehthere are usb gps dongles you can just drop in your backpack logging stuff and later you analyze the data00:32
cehtehwhy do you need this special app?00:32
sevardjacekowski: 10-20 minutes is unreasonable for my applicaton... the garmin in my car doesn't have a-gps and gets a signal lock in under 60 seconds00:32
cehtehnot when cold booting00:32
jacekowskisevard: because it remembers positions00:32
cehtehbut yes devices with agps often dont put much effort into unassissted locks00:33
sevardcehteh: I don't, if I found another platform that has a fast gps chip and software that outputs into GPX format that I could get over usb or bluetooth that would suffice.00:33
DocScrutinizersevard: please don't first do the conclusions and then ask for transforming them to a real thing. This never works, esp when you got no clear idea about the topic00:33
jacekowskisevard: and these devices have much better antennas than you can ever put in phone00:33
DocScrutinizersevard: explain your needs and ask for solutions!00:33
jacekowskisevard: and the way it works is almost like assisted gps00:33
tank-mansevard, i just pasted a link to such a device00:34
sevardDocScrutinizer: ... thanks for the advice.00:34
cehtehany gps is slow at cold boot, thats a design constraint00:34
sevardtank-man: I'm readin gup on it00:34
jacekowskisevard: but instead of using frech data from internet, it's using data that it recieved recently00:34
jacekowskisevard: if you switch it off and move it 200 miles away, it will take probably around 10 minutes to lock00:34
tank-manthe one i linked to has the following stats: Cold start 36s, Warm start 33s,Hot start 1s00:34
cehtehno, not even the most expensive gps can do a fast unassisted cold startup00:34
cehtehtank-man: 36sec is iirc impossible00:35
sevardtank-man: The price point point is about 3x too much for me :(00:35
tank-manno it is not00:35
jacekowskitank-man: it is impossible00:35
jacekowskitank-man: cold start means that almanac is unknown00:35
tank-manhow is it 3x more expensive than a smart phone?00:35
cehtehthe sideband which is used to transmit the data is slower00:36
jacekowskitank-man: and it takes 10minutes+ to transmit alamac00:36
jacekowskialmanac*00:36
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tank-manjacekowski, i used this device with my nokia n80000:36
cehtehunder perfect conditions00:36
cehtehtank-man: then it wasnt cold00:36
jacekowskitank-man: then it already knew alamanac00:36
cehtehit had some almanac stored and interpolated that00:36
jacekowskitank-man: lot of devices have preprogrammed alamac in them00:36
tank-manand it also can be used as a standalone device that logs info00:36
jacekowskitank-man: because it doesn't change00:37
tank-mani only quoted the info from the sites web page and its about the same as my experience with the device00:37
jacekowskiwell it changes but once you recieve it it's good for half a year00:37
jacekowskitank-man: that's marketing bs00:37
sevardhm00:37
jacekowskitank-man: you can't lock in less than 1s00:38
jacekowskitank-man: because you can't sync clock that fast00:38
javispedroa hot start in 1s is possible00:39
tank-mani dont know what 'hot start' is , but in my experience with the device, once i turn it on, in about 30 sec it has my gps position00:39
cehtehhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#Message_format00:39
sevardMTK GPS Module00:39
javispedrobut it's evil from the manufacturer to quote that as their hot start time.00:39
javispedrobecause you won't see it much in RL.00:39
cehtehsevard: there are gps track-logger dongles for as cheap as 20-30 eur00:39
cehtehusb, small battery which last about a day and enough memory to track that day00:40
sevardcehteh: I haven't found a cheap one, i've been looking, 30 eur is like 70 usd, i was hoping for something aroun 30usd so i could buy 5 or 6 of them and gift them.  that's why i was looking at old phones00:41
jacekowskisevard: then you can use phones00:41
cehtehhuh is the $ dropped that much?00:41
jacekowskisevard: but it will take ages to lock00:41
javispedrobut don't complain when they take 30 minutes to get a lock :)00:41
sevardjacekowski: that's why i was looking for something that didn't rely on a-gps00:41
cehtehi caclulate usually 1Eur == 1Dollar when electronic gadgets are involved :P00:41
jacekowskisevard: it's not relying on agps00:41
sevardand that's why i came here00:41
jacekowskisevard: agps is just an ADDON00:42
jacekowskisevard: it's fully standalone device00:42
sevardjacekowski: these nokia devices say they ONLY work with a-gps and not "integrated gps"00:42
jacekowskisevard: even your garmin can do agps00:42
jacekowskisevard: where does it say so00:42
sevardall of these documents say a-gps requires a cellular data connection00:42
jacekowskisevard: yes00:42
jacekowskisevard: AGPS00:42
javispedro"AGPS requires a cellullar data connection" is a true statement.00:42
sevardbut my garmin doesn't have a cellular subscription00:43
jacekowskisevard: but it can do normal gps00:43
jacekowskisevard: but it can do agps00:43
javispedrooh.00:43
jacekowskisevard: you connect phone to it over bt00:43
javispedro"AGPS requires a data connection" :)00:43
jacekowskisevard: and it will do agps00:43
cehtehhttp://www.google.com/search?q=gps+dongle00:43
jacekowskisevard: or you can do almost like agps by connecting it to computer and you can get agps data over the interwebs to the device00:43
jacekowskiit's called QuickFix in tomtom00:44
SiceloGNSS is standalone gps :)00:44
jacekowskiand it's downloading week worth of agps data using computer to store it on device00:44
tank-manandroid tablets can do that too (get quicker fix over internet)00:44
jacekowskitank-man: everything can do that00:44
jacekowskitank-man: but sevard thinks that if device can do that then it can't do normal fixes00:45
jacekowskisevard: agps means that instead of pulling alamanac and ephemeris data from satelite it can get it from internet00:46
jacekowskisevard: but it can still get it from satelite00:47
tank-mancheaper to have checkpoints for those runners and log that info manually :) haha00:47
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jacekowskisevard: but because agps is mostly used in devices like mobile phones, which because of space limitations don't have very good antennas, and therefore it's harder for them to recieve clear signal for 20 minutes required to get all data from cold start00:48
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jacekowskisevard: well, even minute of clear signal required for cold start is a problem very often in devices like that00:48
cehteh.. and on the other side, many agps enabled devices fail to store and interpolate the data for later reuse :/00:49
jacekowskicehteh: i don't think any device stores more than alamac data00:49
jacekowskinot even normal gps recievers00:49
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: ot yet, though I think I understan how I'm going to do it00:50
cehtehwell the point is for how long you consider them valid and maybe interpolate them some later time00:50
jacekowskiwell, ephemeris is only valid for hour00:50
jacekowskiso it's useless00:50
jacekowskionly data that can be reused is almanac data00:51
cehtehintegrate/callibrate with signals you already receive .. if for example you have only 1 lock you can used that to syncronize time and interpolate almanac00:51
cehtehephemeris is valid for 2-4 hours .. but better have some invalid ephemeris than none at all00:51
jacekowskiyou can't interpolate almanac00:51
jacekowskisatellites are fully independen00:52
SpeedEvilAll sats broadcast the almanac.00:52
jacekowskiand invalid ephemeris is as good as none00:52
SpeedEvilAs I understood it.00:52
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: yes00:52
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: it still takes 10+ minutes to recieve it00:53
SpeedEvilI never worked out if they all broadcast it in synchrony, or not.00:53
jacekowskiand if there is any error in transmission00:53
jacekowskilike tunnel00:53
jacekowskior a tree00:53
jacekowskior it was covered for a second00:53
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SpeedEvilIf they don't, you can put it togetehr from multiple sources00:53
jacekowskiwhole of the almanac is useless00:53
cehtehits all about software stitching this together ..00:54
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: well, i don't think gps recievers recieve on all frequencies at the same time00:54
SpeedEviljacekowski: yes they do.00:54
SpeedEvilModern ones at least.00:54
cehtehthats my point in agps phones the usually dont put that much efforts into this software00:54
SpeedEvilWhere modern is >199500:54
jacekowskicehteh: and you would have to know which parts are you recieving00:54
DocScrutinizerthey don't send sync00:54
SpeedEvilcehteh: you do.00:54
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: are you sure theey don't just do frequency hoping?00:54
SpeedEviljacekowski: very00:55
cehtehnope00:55
DocScrutinizerand each sat sends his own current data about own pos in as little as 15s00:55
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SpeedEvilI've actually got part way through a GPS reciever design.00:55
cehtehwell i am off00:55
SpeedEvilThe current time is sent by each sat every 6s.00:55
SpeedEvilYou can actually generate a position off this.00:55
jacekowskiyeah, so 6s is minumum time to get lock00:55
ShadowJKI thought GPS satellites all transmitted on a single frequency (well, one single frequency that civilians can use)00:55
SpeedEvilIt's less than 6s if you employ hax.00:56
SpeedEvilShadowJK: they sort-of-do, but not.00:56
jacekowskilike having local atomic clock00:56
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: even that's not correct (whole alm useless), you can fill in missing chunks from next pass00:56
SpeedEvilThey use maths trickery so that tehy all appear to be transmitting independantly.00:56
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: yeah, but for calculations it's useless00:56
SpeedEvilWhen you are looking for one satellite, the others appear as noise.00:56
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: therefore you have to wait for other almanac to be transmitted00:57
SpeedEvilhttp://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html00:57
SpeedEvilbest introductory text I've found.00:57
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: it's like cdma00:57
jacekowskigps in principle isn't very complicated00:57
SpeedEvilIt's exactly CDMA00:57
DocScrutinizerwcdma00:57
jacekowskiyou have satellites that send their time00:57
jacekowskiyou measure difference between these times and calculate distances based on that00:58
jacekowskibut because satellites have to move00:59
jacekowskithat makes whole thing move00:59
jacekowskiso you have to calculate distance to satellite, and position of that satellite00:59
ShadowJKand also earth moves, and also earth's gravity curves space?00:59
DocScrutinizeryes, so what?01:00
jacekowskiwell, i think more error is caused by instabilities in cheap gps chips clock01:00
jacekowskithan by earth's gravity01:00
javispedrohah.01:00
DocScrutinizerthat's why you need alm and ephem for exact fix01:00
* ShadowJK thought atmosphere was a big factor01:00
DocScrutinizerexactly01:01
SpeedEviljacekowski: Error in the clock is not significant, though that is why you need 3 sats for a 2d position.01:01
DocScrutinizerexactly01:01
SpeedEvilIonosphere causes several-may meter errros01:01
SpeedEvilmany01:01
DocScrutinizerthat's also what dgps is all about01:02
jacekowskistar navigation ftw01:02
DocScrutinizerwhile often people think agps would cope with these things01:02
SpeedEvilI'm pondering that for n950/n901:02
SpeedEvil(star navigation)01:02
DocScrutinizerfor sun and mon it may work01:03
DocScrutinizermoon01:03
SpeedEvilYou can add to the position knowledge a bit by using the always open main camera to snap the sun/moon/planet positions.01:03
jacekowskii can give you accurateish position using sextant faster than gps starting from cold01:03
DocScrutinizerdoubt it will catch planets01:03
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Planets are as bright as the moon - if you can focus them. They're just smaller.01:03
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: stacking01:03
SpeedEvilStars are - generally harder.01:03
DocScrutinizerhmm ok01:03
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: it's about distance as well01:04
jacekowskibut stacking could possibly work01:04
SpeedEviljacekowski: If you can resolve the disk, then they are as bright.01:04
SpeedEvilResolving the disk is impossible for some.01:04
javispedroso you turn on a bright light and suddently the error is increased to kilometers? :)01:04
* SpeedEvil drops a kalman filter on javispedro.01:05
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DocScrutinizerhi javispedro btw01:15
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DocScrutinizerbtw if any of you wants to know details about how gps works . the best link ever, courtesy SpeedEvil: http://www.colorado.edu/geography/gcraft/notes/gps/gps_f.html01:18
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jonnewhat does maemo use for scheduling? i tried looking for cron, but it seems to not have this01:23
jonneor do i just need to create the directory /var/spool/cron/crontabs ?01:24
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NIN101jonne: take a look at "alarmed"01:26
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javispedrohi DocScrutinizer01:26
jonnecrontab -e works if i create the folders, but it uses vi01:28
jonne:/01:28
jonnewill finally need to learn that then01:28
jonnealarmed looks easier, thanks01:28
jonnewill try that01:29
jonnei just need something to run the script that clears old map tiles from my phone01:29
luke-jrjonne: set EDITOR01:29
luke-jrexport EDITOR=nano01:30
luke-jror whatever01:30
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jjolearning vi sound like a way better idea than exporting EDITOR. it might even come in handy later.01:40
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jonnei think i set cron correctly, now i'll just have to make sure it actually is01:43
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DocScrutinizerjonne: alarmed has a GUI as well as a crontab alike cmdline interface01:48
jonnei think everything's set correctly, and i've modified the script so it touches a file so i know when it was last run01:49
* DocScrutinizer likes the cmdline feature ;-D (and the fact it got implemented the way he suggested)01:49
jonneyeah, but why install an extra app if the standard unix stuff can do it?01:50
DocScrutinizerbecause cron just doesn't really work01:50
jonnebtw, can you send notifications from script?01:50
jonnewait, it doesn't?01:51
DocScrutinizercron isn't built for a system that has zeroclock01:51
DocScrutinizerwhile alarmed even powers up your device when an alarm expires01:51
jonnei don't need this01:52
jonnei just want it to stop mappero from filling up my disk with tiles i'll only use once01:52
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jonneso i just delete all tiles that are older than a year01:52
DocScrutinizerwell, you probably want the fact though that alarmd daemon doesn't hog battery, while cron doesn't care about the embedded idiosyncrasies of N90001:52
jonnebut doesn't cron run anyway?01:53
DocScrutinizerno01:53
DocScrutinizerdeginitely not01:53
jonnehmm01:53
DocScrutinizerdef*01:53
jonnei'll switch to alarmed then01:53
DocScrutinizeralarmd daemon runs anyway01:53
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DocScrutinizerand alarmed is a frontend for alarmd like crontab cmd is a frontend to crond01:54
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jonneoh, ok01:54
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DocScrutinizerI actually suggested to create a crontab cmd that uses alarmed as backend, and to teach alarmed to use classical crontab files01:59
DocScrutinizeralas it didn't happen01:59
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DocScrutinizerthere's another pkg called fcron iirc, but also iirc it has quite a number of issues. I honestly recommend using alarmed for all purposes where you usually would think about editing crontab files02:01
jonneok, i've set it up02:02
DocScrutinizeryou should like it02:02
DocScrutinizerif you don't, please tell Shapeshifter and me why :-)02:02
jonneumm, how does one remove an event?02:03
jonnei edited an event, and now i have 2 identical ones at different times02:05
jonneand now it won't let me delete the old one02:05
DocScrutinizererr, I think there's a delete button in gui, and a --help option on shell cmdline. Only think I think is missing is a symlink:02:06
DocScrutinizerlrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 23 2011-06-20 15:53 /usr/bin/alarmed -> /opt/alarmed/alarmed.py02:06
jonnewait, they got deleted, the gui just didn't update02:06
DocScrutinizerhmm, that's clearly a bug then. Pester shapeshifter about it please02:06
DocScrutinizers/only think/only thing/02:07
jonnei'll see if i can do it again02:07
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jonnedoes Shapeshifter prefer proper bug reports or should i just whine about bugs on irc?02:13
DocScrutinizertry pinging him here, I dunno if he will prefer bug reports ;-)02:17
DocScrutinizererr, bugtracker tickets02:18
DocScrutinizerpossibly not the best time to catch him right now02:18
DocScrutinizer~seen Shapeshifter02:18
infobotshapeshifter is currently on #maemo (3d 9h 6m 17s) #meego (3d 9h 6m 17s). Has said a total of 62 messages. Is idling for 4h 56m 17s, last said: 'they'll add tv and a phone for just 10 more but I never use that stuff'.02:19
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: ping02:20
DocScrutinizerjonne: TZ Europe ;-D02:21
jonneI'm in Europe too, it's only 1am :p02:22
DocScrutinizeryeah, but maybe Shapeshifter is a lark rather than an owl02:23
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DocScrutinizeralmost 1:30... meh, time for pub ;-D02:24
jonnei pmed him,, he can look at it whenever he wants02:26
jonneshould be straightforward to reproduce02:26
DocScrutinizermention the version (aka the origin repo and time of install), as it seems he needs that. I think I mentioned that bug to him like 18 months ago, but I wasn't able to provide that info02:27
jonnedone02:29
DocScrutinizerfor the uebercool -z option >>  -z 'DATE', --date='DATE'                        Set the date using coreutils date syntax, for example                        'now +5 minutes'02:33
DocScrutinizeryou need to install coreutils, otherwise it doesn't work iirc02:33
DocScrutinizermessybox "don't need this" policy, you know02:34
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javispedrooh my goodness.03:06
DocScrutinizer?03:06
javispedrothere's a guy in the n950 waiting list who has done a 8086->arm static recompiler that is enough to run at least one game03:06
DocScrutinizercame to offer some smalltalk before I die from boredom?03:06
javispedrohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7UidW2tMtQ03:06
javispedroDocScrutinizer: yes03:06
DocScrutinizerincredible03:07
DocScrutinizerrecompiler as in take x86 binary, cook in sulfuric acid with garlic, get working arm binary that may run on maemo??03:08
javispedrothat's my understanding of it.03:08
DocScrutinizerdang03:08
javispedrothe rather large con is that it'll probably have very limited compatibility03:09
javispedrobut I always wondered why nobody tried it.03:09
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DocScrutinizer4 years old03:11
DocScrutinizerlast thing I didn't really follow, on #harmattan, was they run native x86 binaries03:13
javispedro?03:13
DocScrutinizeryeah, same here03:14
javispedrothere's a guy around who runs qemu-user x86 in the n90003:14
javispedroand n95003:14
javispedrobut that is plain emulation03:14
DocScrutinizeryeah, might been it03:14
javispedrostatic recompilation is where the money is today =)03:14
javispedro(obviously not :) )03:14
javispedrobut I'd like to try, I was trying to google if he published this stuff somewhere.03:15
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: seen my comment about that FMRX mode register? I think it might need some initialization03:17
javispedronot yet03:17
DocScrutinizererr, posted the comment like 2 weeks ago03:17
javispedrouh, in the thread?03:17
DocScrutinizersure03:17
javispedrostupid vbulletin didn't send me mail, then.03:17
DocScrutinizernot unusual03:18
javispedroah03:18
javispedroseems that it is you who didn' read my comment :)03:18
DocScrutinizerwhen FMC says "no further mail will get sent until you visit..." they actually mean it03:18
javispedrohttp://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=390203:18
javispedrowhat do you think?03:23
javispedroI wish I had the ds03:23
DocScrutinizermaster looks fishy, maybe03:23
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DocScrutinizerI'd actually expect SoC wants to be master03:24
DocScrutinizerwhich also would explain the stalled data transmission aka missing clock pretty much03:24
javispedrosadly, seemingly no wait to change that from userspace03:25
javispedro*way03:25
javispedrooh man, the founder of gentoo "just got a touchpad" =)03:26
DocScrutinizererr, no way to change? how that? I thought there was some cmd in v4l2* to change that?03:28
javispedroyou can change some parts of the bitfield03:28
javispedrorate, width03:29
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: at very least you could check what mode the SoC (twl5031?) ISS is in, as I gather it's the same IF that's used for e.g BT headsets03:29
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DocScrutinizerwhich btw is a debatable design, regarding ALSA. I'd feel better with dedicated mutually exclusive audiocards for BT A2DP, BT SCO, FMRX...03:32
javispedrosuch is life...03:32
javispedrono idea how to check that so far.. :P03:32
DocScrutinizerand each of those "audio cards" initializes the mode register and other stuff accordingly on pcm_open()03:33
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javispedroyeah, sounds more reasonable03:34
DocScrutinizerhow to check: well, probably find what's the audio card used for BT, then see what the source does. EEEW that's prolly PA again, not BT03:34
DocScrutinizers/BT/ALSA/03:34
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: how to check: well, probably find what's the audio card used for ALSA, then see what the source does. EEEW that's prolly PA again, not BT03:34
DocScrutinizergrr, not this one, the other one03:35
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DocScrutinizerisn't this bluez stuff built on PA?03:35
javispedroI did not study how BT audio works in Harmattan yet03:36
javispedroin fact, I've not even tested it yet.03:36
DocScrutinizernever looked into it, don't even know if it's bluez that gets used for harm03:36
javispedroyeah03:36
javispedroIt's bluez.03:36
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DocScrutinizerdefinitely I think that's the same McBSP3 IF03:38
DocScrutinizerBT_PCM(3:0)03:39
DocScrutinizerBTFM >03:39
DocScrutinizerBTFM module03:39
DocScrutinizerp.2 schem03:39
DocScrutinizerdang SPI4 directly above ->WLAN03:40
javispedron900 schem?03:40
DocScrutinizerFM_INT :-o03:40
DocScrutinizeryoh03:40
DocScrutinizerFM_INT !!!!03:41
jieroN9 australia preorder price $645 :D going to try convince other for it03:41
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SpeedEviljiero: You can order now?03:41
javispedroDocScrutinizer: lol, but then again n900 fmrx is quite different03:41
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: nevermind, my brain went on holiday03:42
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jieroSpeedEvil: http://www.smoothmobiles.com.au/nokia-n9-16gb.html?SID=qkvhe7ddbap1j7m05mdlu1cd9503:42
SpeedEviljiero: Neat.03:42
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SpeedEvilIsn't FM_INT for RDS03:42
* SpeedEvil hasn't poked that bit03:42
DocScrutinizerquite possible, SpeedEvil03:43
SpeedEviljiero: I assume you know the SD card option is bogus?03:43
DocScrutinizeranyway I just was completely erratic03:43
SpeedEvilI thought the n9 was 32, not 16.03:43
SpeedEvilG03:43
javispedron9 is either 16 or 64G03:43
SpeedEvilAh.03:43
javispedro$645?03:44
javispedropssh.03:44
SpeedEvil412 pounds03:45
SpeedEvilWasn't the n900 499 at launch?03:45
DocScrutinizer7 day piece of mind guarantee -- COOL03:45
javispedroaw yes, seems that the dollar is falling quicklier than I thought.03:45
* DocScrutinizer wonders what to do with the mind piece03:46
SpeedEvilLeather tanning.03:46
javispedroI think SpeedEvil is right and FM_INT is for RDS:03:47
javispedros/:/./03:47
infobotjavispedro meant: I think SpeedEvil is right and FM_INT is for RDS.03:47
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DocScrutinizerspeakerphone: no - LOL03:50
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: javispedro: (FM_INT) wild guess: signal getting weak, request to tune "me" to another alternative frequency as suggested by RDS03:53
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DocScrutinizervoice traffic message starting - please stop mp3 playback and switch to radio audio03:54
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javispedrona, just "pending rds stuff in fifo"03:54
DocScrutinizerthings like that03:54
DocScrutinizerhmm, or that03:55
DocScrutinizerthen you'd still send the above msgs via fifo03:55
DocScrutinizer:-)03:55
javispedrotouché03:55
javispedroI do not see a similar interupt on the wl1273 though03:56
DocScrutinizernah, you're right it's probably as general purpose as it gets03:56
DocScrutinizersupposed to get polled constantly?03:56
DocScrutinizerAIUI you always have several busses to/fro that multipurpose chip. Some of them may be able to trigger a IRQ03:58
javispedroah, way, there's a line.03:58
javispedro*wait03:58
DocScrutinizerwhere do you see that line? on that marketing paper crap?03:59
javispedrono, I'm reading driver03:59
DocScrutinizerAAAH03:59
javispedrosadly there's no mxr I could link you to..03:59
javispedroeither way I just gazed at wl1273-core.c:73503:59
javispedroway, I'll pastebin it.04:00
javispedrohttp://pastebin.com/4W7YqNTa04:00
javispedroon line 735 is the service routine04:01
DocScrutinizerwill take a while, I'm actually *reading* it, got to line 50 now04:03
DocScrutinizer;-D04:03
javispedromy brain's autocompleter seems to have decided to write way instead of wait and wait instead of way today.04:03
* javispedro hits his own head a few times to trigger reset04:03
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DocScrutinizerWTF WL1273_POWER_SET_RETENTION ?04:04
javispedrobtw the driver is rather large04:04
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javispedrothat's just the "common" part04:05
DocScrutinizeryeah, agther that04:05
javispedrothere's stuff in alsa (for codec), v4l, ...04:05
DocScrutinizerand also it's a driver written by "Nokia" which is kinda strange regarding they don't officially support FM04:05
javispedrothis is the only reason I spend time on it04:07
javispedrootherwise I'd say " it's broken and aegis won't let me replace it"04:07
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javispedronokia made it probably means it has been tested on n950...04:07
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DocScrutinizercheck amixer for mode setting04:13
DocScrutinizerI bet you should set this bit (literally bit) right *prior* to opening the McBSP audiocard04:14
javispedroyeah, I do that.04:14
DocScrutinizerdata transfer won't start automagically when you open the audio card and *then* twiddle with the master/slave setting04:14
javispedrohowever I think the order in which I set the individual controls is important04:14
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jieroHi, is there a way use N900 as bluetooth Speaker? instead of streaming?04:19
Juozapasis there any file size limit for ./MyDocs dir?04:21
javispedroJuozapas: fat32 one04:21
javispedroaround 2 GiB.04:21
Juozapasso that can be the reason why rtorrent close connect...(?)04:23
Juozapasconnection*04:23
javispedrono idea.04:23
DocScrutinizersize limit 2GB, seen it more than once04:23
jieroum. I do prefer having a 10GB rootfs... my laptop use 50GB for /, 200GB for /home04:23
Juozapasso solution is convert it to ext3?04:24
jierodo you really need a file more than 2GB?04:25
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Juozapasgood q :)04:29
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: anyway, line 770 for signal04:29
DocScrutinizer826 awesome04:31
javispedroit's nice to see that even if you have the official docs you're still hungry.04:31
DocScrutinizer823 stinks04:33
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javispedrohm... another onenand_wait: correctable ECC error = 0x0100, addr1 0x4, addr8 0xac04:39
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javispedrothere's that dmesg error in fm driver also04:42
javispedrowl1273_fm_write_cmd: Cmd: 102 fails04:42
javispedrobut that happens just in line 59804:43
javispedroa comment there says: "/* ignore possible error here */"04:43
javispedroso I guess I should.04:43
javispedroreading RDS is easy btw: cat /dev/radio004:45
javispedroof course it is encoded so not human readable.04:45
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I wonder what suspend in FMRX mode might mean. (line 1195)04:51
javispedroI can enter it freely04:52
javispedroRDS empties04:52
javispedroloses currently tuned freq04:53
javispedro[32499.014923] wl1273-fm 3-0022: wl1273_fm_read_reg: Read: 55 fails.04:54
javispedro[32535.533905] i2c_omap i2c_omap.3: Arbitration lost04:54
javispedro[32536.596038] i2c_omap i2c_omap.3: timeout waiting for bus ready04:54
javispedroI lost the chip =)04:54
* javispedro sighs04:54
javispedroah well, thank god the driver allowed me to shut it down.04:54
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: 1703 ff are kinda interesting05:06
DocScrutinizer170805:06
javispedroyeah05:07
javispedroanalog is the default for some reason05:07
javispedrobtw, I cannot turn fmtx on05:08
javispedroI get -EPERM05:08
javispedrono idea why, no error on dmesg..05:08
DocScrutinizerallowed_modes or sth05:09
DocScrutinizer137405:11
javispedrohm05:11
javispedrorm680 has allowed modes set to fmrx only05:11
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javispedrobut rx71 has it set to fmrx+tx05:11
javispedroas is rm69605:11
DocScrutinizerheh05:11
DocScrutinizerwhat's N9?05:12
DocScrutinizer71?05:12
DocScrutinizernah rm696?05:13
javispedroCONFIG_MACH_NOKIA_RX71=y05:13
javispedroCONFIG_MACH_NOKIA_RM680=y05:13
javispedroCONFIG_MACH_NOKIA_RM696=y05:13
javispedrolol05:13
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javispedroI did not think you could do that?05:13
DocScrutinizerMUHAHA05:13
DocScrutinizera true universal sw05:13
DocScrutinizermeh, this sucks without schematics05:14
SpeedEvilIt would be quite fun if that actually workerd.05:14
DocScrutinizerreally, RE'ing schematics from driver source is so OMFG *headdesk*05:15
javispedroseemingly bootloader passes in the machine type05:15
SpeedEviln9 service manual leaked only I think.05:15
DocScrutinizerRE'ing datasheets from sore even worse05:16
javispedrothis is absurd05:17
javispedroeven when chip is Off  arecord does the same05:17
javispedromust be something stupid05:17
DocScrutinizershall I do the sciphone with N950? http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Sciphone_Dream_G2#PCB_layers05:18
DocScrutinizer:-P05:18
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I think the wl shall be in slave mode, not master?05:26
javispedroas said I cannot change that05:26
javispedroif that's the case -- then it's as good as broken.05:26
DocScrutinizeror we need to set the "audio card" aka McBSP to slave mode05:26
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DocScrutinizertry different sequences like swapping order of setting up and starting wl, and starting audiocard05:28
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DocScrutinizeractually when in master mode the wl should start anyway, aiui. I just has a clock line, a data line with (usually) 32 databits in sync with clock, and a "start bit" line that tags the first bit of a 32 bit frame05:31
DocScrutinizerall 3 are output, and the data input will most likely get ignored05:31
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javispedrowl1273 is on mcbsp405:33
javispedroconfigured as MCBSP_CLKACT_IOFF_FON05:33
DocScrutinizerhmm, how does that help?05:33
javispedrotrying to understand..05:34
DocScrutinizerwhatever that means05:34
DocScrutinizerclock active??? as slave?    Input(?)OFF?  FrameON?05:34
DocScrutinizerneed a peek to SoC DS05:35
DocScrutinizer:-/05:35
javispedrona, slave05:35
javispedroit is set to slave05:35
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javispedroSND_SOC_DAIFMT_CBM_CFM05:35
DocScrutinizerAHAAA05:35
javispedrothis means "slave" seemingly05:36
javispedroaccording to omap-mcbsp.c:60305:36
javispedro( http://pastebin.com/gPCK4MkN )05:37
javispedroand dfl61-wl1273.c:46 ( http://pastebin.com/2b1x7MqS ) configures it that way.05:38
javispedrohm05:39
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javispedroI ponder how often is snd_soc_ops->startup called05:40
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DocScrutinizerbut look at 551 .. 589 pfooooh05:41
DocScrutinizerof omap-mcbsp05:42
javispedroSND_SOC_DAIFMT_I2S | SND_SOC_DAIFMT_NB_NF | SND_SOC_DAIFMT_CBM_CFM is the fmt when in fmrx mode05:42
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javispedrohum05:50
javispedrowl1273_fm_radio wl1273_fm_radio: INT_MASK: 0x000005:51
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javispedrosomething weird there, I do not see where it clears the int_mask.05:52
javispedroalso a stupid thing to do..05:53
DocScrutinizerI think it's pretty much an insult to throw those drivers over the wall without any example code to test them, without any readme how to use them...05:55
javispedroan evil05:56
javispedro*and05:56
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DocScrutinizeryeah, then set it to analog default and do not mention if it's conected at all via analog, and if so then to which analog input of mixer05:58
javispedroI am now realizing that this log-status operation is destructive05:59
javispedrobecause it reads the int_mask05:59
javispedroand it causes something to happen to the device06:00
javispedroexactly what I dunno.06:00
javispedroneed DS :)06:00
DocScrutinizeractually I wonder how they managed to get some of those I2C control register on an ioctl for v4l2 while others sit in a soundcard ctl and show up in amixer06:00
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DocScrutinizertx power in amixer, go figure!06:01
DocScrutinizeralsamixer actually06:02
javispedrosamething06:02
javispedroalbeit for some reason alsamixer can't set Mode06:02
DocScrutinizerindeed06:02
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DocScrutinizergot mad about it06:02
DocScrutinizerafter 2 hours it got me wasted06:03
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javispedrono ideas06:05
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DocScrutinizersame here06:05
javispedrothe only thing I've discovered is that if you keep /dev/radio0 open then arecord takes a little more time to timeout06:05
javispedroas in, 4 or 5 seconds.06:05
DocScrutinizeryup06:05
javispedromaybe I should try and see how BT audio works06:06
DocScrutinizergood plan06:06
javispedrobut I think they'll do bluez instead of using this crap.06:07
javispedrobattery life when using a BT headset was probably not a goal :)06:07
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DocScrutinizerdepends on what BT in turn is using06:07
javispedrowhat is Tx Ctune btw06:13
javispedroit's read only06:14
javispedroooh --- TX tuning capacitor06:14
DocScrutinizeryeah06:15
DocScrutinizercool audio control, no? ;-P06:15
javispedroindeed.06:15
DocScrutinizermakes you wonder how much of the stuff the coder actually understood06:16
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DocScrutinizermaybe e could get CPU core voltage as an audio control as well? X-D06:17
javispedrohey, don't give ideas to those crazy tmo overclockers.06:18
DocScrutinizerTX power isn'T r/o iirc06:19
javispedronope06:19
DocScrutinizerwe could replace settings completely by alsamixer06:20
javispedroI think I now completely confused the driver06:21
javispedroit is allowing me to aplay data into the codec06:21
javispedrono complains in dmesg..06:22
DocScrutinizertechnically mcbsp IF is always bidir06:22
javispedroand asme thing happens06:22
javispedroafter some data written06:22
javispedrotimeout and -EIO06:22
javispedro(evidently while waiting for space in buffer)06:23
javispedroaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh06:24
javispedroeven in Bt mode the _same_ _thing_ _happens_06:24
DocScrutinizertoldya one card for all is a bewildering design06:24
DocScrutinizeranyway if there's some working FOSS BT "framework" on that thing, it might work similarly for FM06:29
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javispedrooh06:29
DocScrutinizerso getting same error for BT is better than getting the error only for FMRX06:29
javispedroI now realize that "Audio Mode" is a purely software thing06:29
javispedroer..06:30
javispedro"Codec Mode"06:30
javispedrothis makes this very weird06:30
DocScrutinizerwhat's the values for codec mode?06:30
javispedroBT FmRx FmTx06:30
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DocScrutinizerdang06:31
javispedrocause this means ....06:31
DocScrutinizerit all works alike06:31
javispedroand among other things hardware nevers get notified if I switch it to "bt"06:31
javispedroso switching it to bt does ... nothing??06:31
DocScrutinizerindeed06:31
* javispedro now understands even less than moments ago06:31
DocScrutinizerthat's what v4l2 is for06:32
DocScrutinizer.oO(???)06:32
javispedroseemingly all codec mode does is set some alsa parameter validation06:32
DocScrutinizer:nod:06:33
DocScrutinizerwhy is it _always_ audio that's messed up fubar, no matter on which platform?06:34
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jieroI found my best font for N900 : Linux Biolinum!07:49
jieroits style very similar to Chinese writing :D imo07:49
psycho_oreos`best' is best described as per se, of one's particular interest07:53
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jieropsycho_oreos: I spoken: "my best"...07:55
psycho_oreosjiero, rather best rephrased as my \favourite\ instead of \best\ ;)07:56
jieropsycho_oreos: yeah, its not eye-catching then.07:56
jieropsycho_oreos: what font you use?08:01
psycho_oreosjiero, a mixture of standard/extra fonts (nothing special really, I only care about legible factors rather than having fancy ones). For instance, on X-Terminal I use Droid fonts, but otherwise I use standard Nokia Sans/Nokia Pure fonts08:02
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jieropsycho_oreos: ty. have you seen a problem that apt always try to uninstall Droids Font? Due to this problem, I was frustrated and getting other fonts from my laptop...08:07
psycho_oreosjiero, never seen an issue with apt always wanting to try and and uninstall droid font. I have had at one stage apt incorrectly asking to install a whole bunch of other packages (was related to i10n to be frank) and I think that was fixed up. Probably because the maintainer was modifying the Depends field for that metapackage.08:09
jierook, hopefully its only on me...08:11
psycho_oreosI'm guessing it might be the repositories of which you enable/use which may cause apt to do that. There might be a fix for it but don't quote me on it. I have to deal with issues on HAM showing up old packages needing to upgrade, which they have already been upgraded.08:14
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psycho_oreosjiero, when you mean apt always trying to uninstall droid font you mean that whenever you execute apt-get download <package> for instance it shows up ttf-droid is no longer required and can be removed via autoremove command?08:24
jieropsycho_oreos: yes08:25
jieroand even i install it.08:25
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psycho_oreosI'm rethinking about it now. I know that appears when a package you have installed previously did depend on that package so if it was installed manually (as in ttf-droid) it may not show that issue.08:26
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jierocomplex logic to meO:) Im simple mind...08:31
jierohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OilBV3CUYw&NR=108:31
jieroI want this game to port to N900 :D08:31
psycho_oreosits a pretty simple fix I think.. uninstall ttf-droid font (make sure you're not using ttf-droid anywhere) and then manually install ttf-droid. That autoremove message should no longer appear hopefully08:32
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jieropsycho_oreos:  thanks, I told you it won't work:D08:40
jierobut..08:40
jierothanks08:40
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psycho_oreosjiero, there has to be a way to make it work :p I installed ttf-droid on its own and never had that autoremove option for ttf-droid. I'm presuming the same could be said and done in your case. Though if apt-get doesn't work, I'd just go through the dpkg route08:41
jieroyeah, just mv ~08:43
psycho_oreoslol well mv is technically the last sort of resort that I would use if apt-get still moans about ttf-droid as a dependency package08:44
psycho_oreosthe only issue with that is you'll have to rm it should you no longer require the font in the near future08:45
jieropsycho_oreos: I then won't bother package management...08:45
jieropsycho_oreos: I just need to reformat all repartation all... 2GB is very strict too me...08:45
jieroI need at least 7 GB i suppose.08:46
psycho_oreosjiero, not that package management is either good or bad but to have a somewhat sense of centralising all the individual bits and pieces of the files that resides on the fs you may as well somehow negotiate with the package management. Though I guess you've already tried doing it :)08:47
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psycho_oreos7GB is enough? you're planning to install every package from the extras-devel repository? :D08:47
jierowell. font is more like document...08:47
jieropsycho_oreos: 7GB because everything in ~/ need it except ~/MyDocs and I heard a best Linux partition must remain 1/4 space unused.08:49
psycho_oreosfont on the filesystem is still known as a file :) the operating system doesn't really differentiate between a document and a regular file. They only care for few specific things namely: fifo, block devices, character devices, regular files, etc08:49
jieropsycho_oreos: here is the differences, font should go ~/MyDocs rather than go system folder... unless its not safe.08:50
jieroto use that, I need root..... root somehow need password, omg, i completely failed to learn linux.08:51
psycho_oreosjiero, I think you're technically misunderstanding things :) /home/user is whatever you store for your own need (and you want it to reside in ext3 rather than fat) apart from that /home/user is also used by programs which store intermediate files (such as personal preferences, score tables, etc). However /home/user shares the same partition as /opt which is regularly used by programs that would otherwise hog the rootfs08:51
psycho_oreosor rather you could relocate the font directory to /opt and probably symlink it. Not that I would have tried that method but that might be an alternative08:52
jieropsycho_oreos: I think font is my own need rather than system need...08:53
Termanagood morning08:54
psycho_oreosjiero, well the system would need it if you set any programs to depend on it08:54
psycho_oreoshi08:55
jierogood morning08:55
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robbiethe1stSo... I just got my first N900 replacement OEM/knockoff case.11:19
psycho_oreosimpressions? ;)11:19
robbiethe1stIt's actually quite interesting: They evidently bought/copied the original moulds: The pieces are *exact*, down to the ID numbers built into it.11:19
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robbiethe1stHowever, that's *all* they got: Anything with stamped letters(like the keyboard) evidently had new stamps made, which... aren't quite as good.11:20
robbiethe1stThe letters are thicker, and someone made a mistake: instead of a blue $, there's a blue S11:20
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robbiethe1stAlso, the two magnets in the back piece are missing, along with the black/white squares on the camera slider.11:21
robbiethe1stThe slider itself, however, is perfectly made. everything looks great, feels great.11:22
psycho_oreosI compared the blue $ on both keyboards (one being original keypad to my newer N900, the other, a replacement keypad I bought in China for my older N900). They look exactly the same except the material used on both were different. The newer N900 is more of a matte type keypad as opposed to the glossy look/feel of the Chinese clone11:22
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psycho_oreosyeah the insides of the backplates for the clone looked really funny. I saw a photo of that the other day with a manufacturer selling a clone N900 (which of course wasn't running maemo at all)11:23
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robbiethe1stLet me upload a pic11:24
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robbiethe1sthttp://robbiethe1st.afraid.org/images/n900-replacement-back.jpeg11:25
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robbiethe1stOne undernieth is the original, one on top is the replacement.11:25
robbiethe1stThe material on the new one is slightly more "grainy"/matte, versus the original one which reflected more11:26
psycho_oreoslol that knockoff case is a dramatic improvement to the knockoff N900 that I saw11:26
robbiethe1stEvidently, yea11:26
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robbiethe1stsee the front: http://robbiethe1st.afraid.org/images/n900-new-back-missing-magnets.jpeg11:28
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jierois there still a way let N900 become a bluetooth speaker?11:37
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robbiethe1stjiero: Yes. I don't know how, though11:42
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psycho_oreosrobbiethe1st, http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/346983266/for_Nokia_N900_Keypad_black_Colour.html <--- similar if not exact same as the one I bought when I was in China. afaik its an exact clone except its not matte finish11:43
* psycho_oreos is crawling through alibaba for that fake N900 to get the photo of poorly mimicked back cover11:44
jieropsycho_oreos: o, you been China before:| what do you think about our people.:D11:44
psycho_oreosjiero, err ok I suppose11:45
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jieropsycho_oreos:  mind I ask where you from?11:45
psycho_oreosreally shifty when you're the foreigner trying to buy stuff from them, they try to raise the price of what it was worth originally11:46
jierorobbiethe1st: thanks.11:46
psycho_oreosjiero, was born in .tw, now in .au11:46
jieropsycho_oreos: I understood.11:46
jieropsycho_oreos: no wonder, Im Chinese from mainland in Au as well.11:47
jierook, my English grammar was wrong.11:47
psycho_oreosjiero, I was lucky to have me old man, he was able to negotiate with mainland Chinese people or otherwise I'd have to pay things through my nose11:48
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TermanaAll you foreigners coming in to invade our land.11:48
TermanaDoesn't sound like us Australians at all...11:48
Termana:p11:48
psycho_oreosyou invaded aboriginies land, don't forget :p11:48
Termana:P11:49
jierowell. I hope all country become one. :D11:49
psycho_oreoserr that's a fairly vague/broad statement11:49
jierodream to tell, statement to spread11:50
psycho_oreoso.O11:51
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Termanaheh.11:52
Termanano one has a clue what you're saying, sorry.11:52
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robbiethe1st:D http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/439506879/N900.html11:57
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psycho_oreoshttp://www.alibaba.com/product-free/109188621/BRAND_NEW_Nokia_N900_BUY_2.html <--- lol yet another one (no that looks more like predecessors of N900)12:04
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vi__hello12:04
vi__I am trying to determine the dbus call to set the operator name12:05
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Juozapasis there any safe way to remove default applications?12:06
robbiethe1stapt-get remove ...?12:06
vi__dbus-send --system --print-reply --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.phone.12:06
vi__net /com/nokia/phone/net Phone.Net_operator_name_change string:"lol"12:06
vi__it isnt this12:07
vi__any suggestions?12:07
psycho_oreosif it were that simple, there wouldn't be any need for a custom operator name widget created by qwerty1212:08
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Juozapasrobbiethe1st: i googled that may cause unstable system12:10
robbiethe1stUh... No. Either it will work, or it won't if you remove the wrong thing.12:10
vi__custom operator widget was so noobz didnt have to use xterm.12:11
robbiethe1stapt-get is the internal package manager; it will handle removing things correctly.12:11
psycho_oreosor if he doesn't know what he's removing/doing12:11
vi__it is a simple dbus call12:11
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vi__I suspect Q12 widget intercepted the the dbus call and replaced it with his own12:12
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Juozapasok, so how i can get package name of program ? ex. "get started" program?12:24
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ErwinJungeHi, anyone on here have experience using SDL_gles?13:19
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psycho_oreosJuozapas, with dpkg -l and some thinking13:23
psycho_oreosdpkg -L to verify afterwards as well13:23
Mek13:24
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godtrunkswhy the n900 gps is working so slow14:00
godtrunkstake me 20-30 min untill he find's a gps signal14:00
godtrunksi can do something about that?14:01
godtrunksso guys some help over here?14:01
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keriogodtrunks: do you have a sim inside?14:04
kerioit just has to be inside, it doesn't even have to be registered to a network14:04
godtrunksyes14:05
keriothen wtf14:05
godtrunksi have a sim card inside14:05
godtrunksrealy14:05
godtrunksi have sigyc mobile maps 201014:05
godtrunkswith naftec maps14:06
godtrunkswhat shoud i do?14:06
godtrunksi have lot's of problems with it since i uninstall nitdroid gingerbread 3.214:07
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godtrunkswhat shoud i do next?14:07
godtrunksany advice?14:07
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jierogodtrunks: you are actually more luck than I am, I never find the signal14:11
godtrunkswtf?14:11
godtrunkswhy?14:11
godtrunkswhat i have to do now?14:11
godtrunkswarranty?14:12
godtrunksgive me another one?14:12
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DocScrutinizersee /topic14:15
godtrunksi can't14:15
godtrunksi'n on web irc..14:15
godtrunks../toping is not working14:16
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DocScrutinizerreflash COMBINED, postpone restoring all your uebergeek apps, install location test GUI, insert SIM and register, go to a free place with free sight at sky, start location test, set to "user" (OWTTE) and wait, fon't move too much14:21
DocScrutinizeraah, and UPDATE!! GPS didn't realy work with old obsolete ootb OS versions14:24
DocScrutinizerand, if this wasn't obvious: never expect GPS to work indoors14:26
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godtrunksin a car mate not indor14:29
DocScrutinizerin a car is often worse than indoors. metalized windows14:30
godtrunkshow about other gps devices?14:31
godtrunksbot with internet fing signal quick14:31
godtrunksbot with internet find signal quick14:31
godtrunksbut with internet find signal quick14:32
DocScrutinizerother devices often have 10 times larger antenna, as they don't need GSM-4band plus 3G-3band, plus BT WLAN antenna, plus FMTX antenna14:34
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villagermaybe they ought to go back to those retractable antennas sticking out of the phone14:37
SpeedEvilThere are alterenatives to them sticking out of the phone.14:39
robbiethe1stvillager: I'd be all for that... most of the time, you don14:40
robbiethe1st't need it. But when you do...14:40
SpeedEvilhttp://www.movieline.com/images/hcyPLLe/hT6EJkL/xSz50LV/JDkQ/aliens_southpark.jpg14:40
DocScrutinizeranyway, my GPS on N900 been abysmal in the beginning, and after some sw-updates it's just awesome now, with SIM with GPRS/data14:41
godtrunkswith a sim withot packet data14:42
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DocScrutinizerdepends14:42
SpeedEvilOnly remaining issue for GPS for me is the lack of accurate geotagging.14:42
DocScrutinizer~gsm-agps14:42
infobothmm... rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP14:42
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: srill the frigging "last decimals always 0" issue?14:44
SpeedEvilyeah14:44
DocScrutinizer:-((((14:44
godtrunksso the advide is to sw update?14:46
SpeedEvilYes.14:46
SpeedEvilIf you're not on the latest firmware14:46
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godtrunksy think i am14:47
godtrunkslast update14:47
SpeedEvilSettings->about product - should show a version ending in 36-214:47
DocScrutinizeror having this sequene somewhere in the name14:48
godtrunksoke14:49
godtrunksthx14:49
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psycho_oreoslooking at the internal pictures of the N900, the WLAN module does have hirose u.fl connected, but then there's two other components that has hirose u.fl connectors but I couldn't identify the chipsets. FM transmitter module is definitely not on that list of chipsets that has access to hirose u.fl as it seems to have its own small loop type antenna15:25
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SpeedEvilWaht are you trying to work otu psycho_oreos15:33
psycho_oreosSpeedEvil, you know those test connectors on the pcb of the N900 itself. I've been trying to figure out what the other two test connectors were. I have figured out one of which is wlan module and just now looking at the schematics the other is GPS receiver. So now I'm debunking the third one. My rough guess is that it might be for Bluetooth15:35
SpeedEvilah15:35
psycho_oreosnevermind the third one is cellular test connector15:36
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ruskiehttp://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/microsoft_news/23130031415:38
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer15:40
*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | Source: http://wiki.maemo.org/Sources | Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | PROBLEMS WITH NITDROID/MULTIBOOT? reflash rootfs&kernel aka COMBINED | For Nokia: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif"15:41
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer15:41
DocScrutinizer~aegis is also http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif15:42
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay15:42
psycho_oreoslol15:42
psycho_oreoscall me stupid but isn't BTFM module the exact same module as BT itself?15:43
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SpeedEvilyes15:44
SpeedEvilIt does both15:44
SpeedEvilFMTX is a seperate chipset15:44
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psycho_oreosthat's what I thought.. hmm now to find that chipset from the pictures15:44
ruskieDocScrutinizer, nice one ;)15:44
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psycho_oreosyeah FMTX is the clip on PCB type chip15:44
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SpeedEvilErr - what?15:44
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SpeedEvilIt's a small LGA IIRC15:45
SpeedEvilOr maybe QFN15:45
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: please rephrase15:45
psycho_oreosThe FM signal is transmitted from a loop antenna built into the case, and connected to the PCB with clips. <---- http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_FM_radio_transmitter15:46
DocScrutinizeryes15:47
SpeedEvilThat's just the antenna15:47
DocScrutinizeralmost correct, though it's not actually a loop antenna afaik15:47
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psycho_oreoslooking at the photos available, FMTX chip is identified via the little weird wire thing on the underside of the screen but on the PCB itself it appears with the FCC internal photos there's the missing module where FMTX is supposed to be15:48
DocScrutinizererr wut?15:48
psycho_oreoshmm wait maybe not where the screen might be15:48
SpeedEvilThere are actual photos of purchased units15:48
psycho_oreosyeah I've seen one of those purchased units pulled apart with all the photos. Just for a beginner like me its not easy to look for which chip on the phsical PCB board is exactly what :)15:50
psycho_oreoss/phsical/physical/15:50
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: yeah I've seen one of those purchased units pulled apart with all the photos. Just for a beginner like me its not easy to look for which chip on the physical PCB board is exactly what :)15:50
DocScrutinizerpsy go to schematics, ^F"fm transmitter" -->> find a hit on p.8 and learn fmtx chip is N618015:50
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: ^^^15:51
DocScrutinizersearch for N6180 on p.16 to find it is located in quadrant G715:52
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, thanks, schematics doesn't really help me all that much in terms of comparing that with actual photo of the PCB. I guess I'll just have to dive deeper15:52
DocScrutinizersearch quadrant G7 for that chip labeled N618015:52
psycho_oreosahh!15:52
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DocScrutinizeronce you learned to spot the chip, you go to http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/ to see if you can read the actual printing on the chip in my super-highres scans15:54
psycho_oreosthanks! *slaps forehead* this/these pages are also the same pages I've been looking for in comparison with what was noted here: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic and potentially here: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Hacking#Additional_Hardware15:54
psycho_oreospage 16 was extremely helpful :D at least I don't have to guess with exactly which chip goes where15:55
psycho_oreosalso the wiki should probably be updated :) you no longer have your high res images at people.openmoko.org ;) or at least its accessible from my end15:56
psycho_oreoss/accessible/inaccessible/15:56
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: also the wiki should probably be updated :) you no longer have your high res images at people.openmoko.org ;) or at least its inaccessible from my end15:56
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: the server is down, and afaik I updated the wiki to include the alternative addr several months ago15:58
DocScrutinizerhttp://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/ IS accessable15:58
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, no no I meant: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/n900 at http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Schematic#cite_note-high_resolution_scans-015:59
DocScrutinizerand has some nice additional scans of unpopulated bare PCB15:59
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psycho_oreosok link fixed on that hardware schematic site :)16:02
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DocScrutinizerhah16:05
DocScrutinizermediawiki is darn smart, it didn't even throw a warning :-D16:06
psycho_oreoso.O16:06
Amorphoushi. does anyone know of a way to get the data of a n900 (stock bootloader+os) without a working screen?16:07
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=N900_Hardware_Schematic&diff=44798&oldid=4437716:07
Amorphoussomething like an undocumented switch for the flasher or something like that?16:08
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=N900_Hardware_Schematic&diff=next&oldid=4479816:08
psycho_oreosAmorphous, tried using TV out cable?16:08
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: I.E. my edit was exactly same as your edit16:08
Amorphousooh good idea16:08
DocScrutinizeractually no, it added a /16:09
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, except you had a forward slash at the end of your link :D lol oh well16:09
psycho_oreosyeah16:09
DocScrutinizerso wiki isn't smart, it's not even *noticing* my edit based on a version that got changed from opening the edit page to saving it16:11
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DocScrutinizerthought I've seen such "your source changed, can't save your edits" warnings16:12
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe it IS extremely smart, detecting the edit I try to save doesn't conflict with the most recent version of the page, though my edit been based on an older "obsolete" version of the page16:14
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psycho_oreosI think in such cases the wiki itself would probably try to differentiate where exactly the source has been changed.. i.e. if I tried to change your link to some other link whilst you changed it back to your proper link, it may show that warning. Probably because on the same link that I used to replace on yours in which you later overwrote with a proper link.16:14
psycho_oreosyeah16:15
psycho_oreossee if I changed from your old site to google.com for instance on that wikipage for the link to your high res photos but at the very same time you have an older revision of the wiki that still points to your old site. If you tried to change that old link to the current link whilst I've already saved that wiki page for your link as google.com it would have shown you a warning I bet ;)16:16
* SpeedEvil suffers from a stack overflow.16:16
* DocScrutinizer suffers from E_caffeine_low16:17
DocScrutinizertime for 12648430   ☕16:17
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: seen the cartoon?16:18
psycho_oreossegmentation fault16:18
DocScrutinizer:-D16:18
SpeedEvilyes16:18
DocScrutinizerwolfgang used it on this very nice qi-hw news page: http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Copyleft_Hardware_News_2011-08-0816:21
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psycho_oreosis it just me or does BTFM uses the same antenna as WLAN? I can sort of relate to the schematics FM is actually wired to 3.5mm stereo jack but what about the BT part? does the TX_CONFX/RF_ACTIVE/STATUS part means something to do with BT transreceiving?16:35
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dm8tbrn900 is a wl1251?16:35
psycho_oreoswl1251b16:36
dm8tbrat least the wl1271 uses the same antenna for BT and WLAN. better drivers have coexistence features where both BT and WLAN won't try to TX at the same time16:36
psycho_oreosI thought wl1271 combines wlan, fm and possibly even bt together on a single chip? :)16:37
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ErwinJungepsycho_oreos: What are you trying to do that you need all this hw info? (I don't have info, just wondering)16:38
psycho_oreosErwinJunge, been pondering the idea of modding my N900, going to try to push it to its limits (no not overclocking). Though as of this point, I'm only curiously pondering and keeping it in my mind until I have some sort of financial backing to do some real modding :)16:39
ErwinJungeAlso, anyone on who has any experience using SDL_gles? I'm trying to port the darkplaces engine to N900, and it kind of works, but I get 2 screens where I should get one. One has the proper title but is black, the other shows the game menu but has title "unknown"16:40
ErwinJungepsycho_oreos, could you elaborate a bit? What kind of modding do you mean to push it to its limits?16:40
psycho_oreosErwinJunge, the funny thing you see here is, the N900 has 3 hirose u.fl connectors. These are for wlan, cellular and GPS. If lets say I drill some small holes on the actual N900 PCB, have adapters to convert hirose u.fl to RP-SMA and have three RP-SMA heads sticking out on the back. Attaching right antennas for each of those I gain signal boost :)16:42
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ErwinJungeSounds cool, you live in the middle of nowhere? :) Living in the Netherlands, I can't really envision a use for that, other than awesomeness-factor.16:43
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psycho_oreosthe second thing I'm looking at is to see if there's an antenna connector somewhere for the bluetooth module as I wouldn't want it to be a leech and suck on wlan's connectivity. Maybe even modding the fm transmitter to have external antenna could be possible. Last but not least, was looking at gyroscope/compass that other's have pointed out. I can see there's a bit of space within the front side of N900 (looking at the PCB board of course) maybe some sort16:44
psycho_oreos of wiring with chips hanging on those front sides could be a possibility16:44
psycho_oreosErwinJunge, wouldn't really say in the middle of nowhere but if I can turn this into a living reality, it would be really nice to have a device sticking out differently from the crowd :)16:45
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ErwinJungeCompass sounds interesting. Is a thing I found surprising that it didn't have tbh16:46
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ErwinJungeJust having an N900 doesn't make you stand out enough? It's not really the most popular phone ever ;)16:47
psycho_oreosI mean notably with wl1251 being open sourced, and having wifi pentesting tool such as aircrack-ng working with it. If you have lets say a 5dbi antenna attached, you could pick up APs from further distances. GPS issues? well with antenna attached it'll be able to pick up satellites more easily.. cellular issues? with external antenna you'll probably be able to still obtain signals even though you seem to be in the middle of nowhere16:47
psycho_oreoswell I admit having N900 would probably stand out (especially if you have kept the device for awhile) but one thing that annoys me with so many small avenues like these that are made possible, why not try to exploit them?16:48
ErwinJungeAll true, it does broaden the applicability of the device.16:48
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psycho_oreosI see some people making 3000mAH batteries, I see some people making small little amps to boost their stereos16:49
ErwinJungeMore of a software guy myself (I suck at using manual tools), but this sounds cool :) Good luck with it. Do you plan on offering modding service to other people as well?16:49
psycho_oreosheh thanks, as for offering service I probably won't :) not that I'm any good with modding myself nor can I guarentee your device would be ok after its modded16:50
psycho_oreosI may however if I do decide to eventually modify mine, I will make a documentation for it.16:51
ErwinJungeToo bad, I might actually be interested :)16:51
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psycho_oreoswell I can't see how the other two mobs that modded their N900 in their own ways would be happy to mod yours or anyone else's ;) I can't see why the same logic doesn't apply here16:52
ErwinJungeToo many negatives in that sentence, I don't get what you mean :)16:52
ErwinJungeAnyways, apparantly noone here has used SDL_gles :(16:53
psycho_oreosthe people who did hardware modifications on their N900 (i.e. 3000mAH battery hack, amp hack) didn't say they'll provide service to modify anyone else's device. No? :)16:53
psycho_oreosI'm sure simply put. If people are really desperate to modify their own device, they would do it themselves rather than paying someone else to do it and giving the other party grief when things don't work16:55
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ErwinJungeWell, giving the other party grief doesn't make sense :) I'd approach it more in a "you have less chance of screwing this up than I do" kind of way.16:55
ErwinJungeIf I try to modify my device, I run a 100% risk of completely destroying it. If you get it to work on yours, the risk is at least lower than 100% ;)16:56
psycho_oreosmore like as in, `hey! I paid you to modify my device but now it doesn't work! why? I want my money back! you broke my device!'16:56
ErwinJungeI understand, it's just not really the kind of contract you'd expect for these kind of services. A "no guarantees" thing makes a lot more sense. Modding is inherantly risky.16:57
psycho_oreosI'm sure you could hire any electrician or a reliable hobbyist to do the job of modding your device :)16:57
ErwinJungeI'd be paying for a reduction of risk, not removal of risk.16:58
ErwinJungeTrue16:58
ErwinJungeWould come with the same "no guarantees" thing though ;)16:58
psycho_oreosyup but many don't realise that.. its quite evident on tmo threads that there's lots and lots of newbs out there who just doesn't have a clue about anything and they're the ones that will give you woes if you offer them services in which they may regret later in life16:58
psycho_oreosnot really, they'll still bicker even if you said that16:59
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ErwinJungeTrue :) I understand why you'd be hesitant to offer services.17:01
psycho_oreosat any rate I intend to first add those 3 antennas in, they seem to be the easiest of the lot when it comes to modding17:01
ErwinJungeSounds awesome. Where would they stick out of the body?17:02
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psycho_oreosfrom the rear would be ideal, though there's other thoughts that circulated around my head, such as if one uses 3000mAH battery mod with a mugen back cover, they maybe able to easily mod that back cover to incorporate three holes for RP-SMA.17:03
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ErwinJungeAnd then run cables around the battery?17:04
psycho_oreosThen there's the thought of custom back cover which would be something like a mixture of nokia's stock back cover plus mugen's back cover.. with bigger kick stand and proper camera door, etc17:04
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psycho_oreosnah, been looking at the backside of the N900 and I can see it looks like there is some sort of lump on the plastic part (once you remove the back cover of course). I was thinking of drilling holes there and having three RP-SMA heads sticking out. Obviously I wouldn't want to use extra long hirose u.fl -> RP-SMA as that would defeat the purpose as well as making a mess17:06
ErwinJungeHmm.. do you have a blog/forum thread/wiki/anything else that I can follow?17:06
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psycho_oreoscurrently no, these are only speculations on my head. If I were serious about it I'd probably blog/forum thread it, especially if I'm going to proceed doing what I have said. Right now these are just imaginations and I won't be able to do them in the near future until my finance approves17:07
psycho_oreoss/on my/in my/17:08
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: currently no, these are only speculations in my head. If I were serious about it I'd probably blog/forum thread it, especially if I'm going to proceed doing what I have said. Right now these are just imaginations and I won't be able to do them in the near...17:08
psycho_oreosgawd.. I fail.. s/finance approves/finances improves/17:08
ErwinJungeCool that infobot actually applies the substitute on the last message :)17:09
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psycho_oreosindeed but only if you specify the substitution as the first parameter17:10
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psycho_oreosanyhow, I don't plan to keep anyone interested :) I don't want to hold empty promises nor do I care if someone copied my idea right here and now and used it for their own good.17:11
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ErwinJungeClear. Still sounds awesome, so good luck with it. I hope it'll work :) What kind of finances would you need for a project like this?17:14
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psycho_oreosadapters (hirose u.fl -> RP-SMA) of specific lengths (which needs to be measured), specific drill bits and drill of course17:15
psycho_oreosI think I already have the right screw heads to undo the screws on the backside of N900, the rest of other mods require soldering tools, flux, etc17:16
psycho_oreoslcuk, ping17:19
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: BT and WLAN share one antenna, and one hirose connector17:22
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: no, drilling holes into the PCB is *no* good idea17:23
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, FFS! damn parasite BT for sharing same antenna as WLAN17:23
DocScrutinizerI don't see the problem17:24
psycho_oreoswell yeah though I was looking at empty PCB spots and I thought there was an area where I can drill holes (after comparing both pictures) it seems to be blank area17:24
psycho_oreoswell it is a problem if for example you're using rfmon with wlan and you're listening to music through bt headphones17:24
DocScrutinizerforget it, there are no "blank areas" on a 7 layer PCB17:25
psycho_oreosbah :/17:25
psycho_oreosso other ways would be to have cable going around the PCB, i.e. where there are gaps for buttons, and stylus pen for instance17:26
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: so what's the difference with BT getting killed by WLAN when they share one antenna, compared to a situation where a dedicated WLAN antenna interferes and kills BT on the dedicated BT antenna nearby?17:26
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: same shit17:26
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: transmitter is slightly simpler though17:27
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: see backscroll for context17:27
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: psycho_oreos wants to separate BT and WLAN antenna to fix an unfixable issue17:27
DocScrutinizeractually it *is* fixable and *got fixed*, by hw coexistence17:28
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, its more like WLAN gets interference from BT when its in RFMON mode. Though if both had separate antennas and lets say that I add antennas and place them elsewhere (not within 1 metre radius) it wouldn't be of an issue as compared to having them both together17:28
DocScrutinizernonsesne17:28
psycho_oreoswell, in the case that I've examined of hw coexistance via lxp's bleeding-edge drivers, it wasn't fixed. It was still showing the same issue17:29
DocScrutinizerexactly the same, unless you place your BT antenna further away than the peer's wlan antenna17:29
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: you evidently have a odd idea of how bt/wlan interference and coexistence work17:30
psycho_oreosbut in either case none of this would be possible if both share the exact same antenna anyway :) its not like you could place BT and WLAN antenna at like 1 km apart :)17:30
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, *shrugs* from the way I see it, there's no real proper coexistance :) they both operate on the similar frequency (2.4GHz)17:31
DocScrutinizerBT and WLAN share one frequency. period.17:31
DocScrutinizerthere's absolutely no way to make them work concurrently in same geographic area, without separating domains by RF-tight walls17:32
DocScrutinizercoexistence manages some sort of round-robbing tdma17:32
DocScrutinizeraka scheduling17:33
DocScrutinizerthis doesn't mean you cured the basic immanent problem17:33
psycho_oreoswhich wouldn't work in the case of one having wlan in rfmon mode and bt paired and sending data to another device17:33
DocScrutinizerit can not work17:34
ShadowJKactually BT2 has AFH, which excludes the most noisiest channels from the frequency hopping list. I've seen my E75 avoid my wlan frequency when I start pushing lots of data over wlan17:34
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: psycho_oreos talks about "passive" wlan in monitor mode, scanning whole band I guess. BT will *always* interfere with that17:35
psycho_oreoswhich was precisely my problem. Though little did I know that you had to separate WLAN and BT miles apart in order to have them work concurrently for a simple issue17:35
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DocScrutinizerand separating antennae by 1, 2, 5m doesn't help either17:35
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psycho_oreoswlan operates on a smaller spectrum than bt but in either case its inevitable that both of them overlaps each other17:38
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: if you want to use your speaker box for microphone (which of course would theoretically work), then it won't help if you get a 2nd speaker 1m away playing your heavy metal @ 110dBm, you still can't record the dialog of two guys 10m away while the box is shouting your heavy metal sound17:38
jacekowskiwell, if you make channels smaller17:39
jacekowskiand avoid using same frequency for bt and wlan at the same time17:39
psycho_oreosor lower the TX power of bt17:39
jacekowskiit could work17:39
jacekowskibut recievers would have to be bit more selective17:39
DocScrutinizerquite obviously it's incredibly hard to impossible to use the box that plays heavy metal to do the microphone also record audio other than heavy metal (the bt and wlan share one antenna case) - but separating it into 2 boxes and placing them 2 meters apart doesn't really better things17:40
jacekowskidirectional antennas17:40
psycho_oreosthat'd work to a lesser point :) but still I guess I'm at a loss17:41
DocScrutinizerhell, simply switch off your friggin heavy metal music aka BT when you want to record faint dialogs aka WLAN scan17:41
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jacekowskinever switch off heavy metal17:41
ShadowJKbt normally spams entire 2.4G band :)17:42
DocScrutinizerBT and WLAN use same frequency and thus are immanently incompatible technologies17:42
psycho_oreosbetter yet, if two or more devices wants to share one internet connection from one device through bt and invariably PAN whilst monitoring wlan traffic, the situation is not viable by any means. Maybe the next step is USB network? maybe even communicating through stereo jack? :)17:43
ShadowJKunless it detects strong interference on one channel, it'll avoid that channel until interference goes away17:43
jacekowskiuse 5Ghz wifi17:46
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jacekowskiand 2.4GHz bty17:46
jacekowskisolution!17:46
psycho_oreosnot in the case of wl1251 :)17:47
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psycho_oreosthe only exception is attaching a USB wireless dongle capable of operating 802.11a bands17:48
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jacekowskiwell, if you have single chip doing bt and wlan or cooperating chips17:51
jacekowskiyou could probably make them to try transmitting on different channels17:51
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: different to WHAT? for rfmon wlan scanning17:52
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jacekowskii mean if it's single chip you could probably add dsp and filter out current bt transmission17:53
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: for normal "concurrent" use of WLAN and BT data transfer there is coexistence already17:53
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jacekowskibut costs would be much higher17:53
SpeedEviljacekowski: It doesn't work17:54
jacekowskiit does work17:54
SpeedEviljacekowski: The transmitted signal is some billions of times stronger than the recieved.17:54
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SpeedEviljacekowski: The minute reflections from the transmitter and changes in its environment will utterly swamp the inbound signal17:54
jacekowskiwireless collision detection works on similiar principle17:54
DocScrutinizerwill introduce TIM noise that can't get dsp'ed out17:54
SpeedEvilWireless collision detection doesn't work like that.17:55
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jacekowskinot exactly like that17:55
SpeedEvilIt has a listen for other transmitters while not transmitting phase.17:55
jacekowskiit looks for unexpected signals17:55
jacekowskieven when transmitting17:55
DocScrutinizerduring mute periods, yes17:55
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DocScrutinizerNO not during TX17:55
DocScrutinizeryou can not do this17:55
SpeedEvilYou cannot listen for signals on the same frequecy during TX17:55
SpeedEvilWith hardware foind in a phone.17:56
DocScrutinizernot even with hw worth k$17:56
SpeedEvilIt is sort-of-possible in some other cases with large fixed antennas.17:56
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: well, that's how 10base2 works17:56
DocScrutinizerpff17:56
SpeedEvil10base2 is not wifi.17:57
jacekowskiand wifi is similiar17:57
DocScrutinizernot at all17:57
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SpeedEviljacekowski: It's really, really not.17:57
SpeedEviljacekowski: It's similar in the same way that constructing a tree from playdough and from DNA is similar.17:57
SpeedEvil10base2 transmits a constant voltage on the line, which can be sensed, just before sending the real signal.17:58
DocScrutinizeron a wire like 10B2 you know your local RX is seeing "the same" as the far end RX. On OTA RF this definitely doesn't apply17:58
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SpeedEvilWith 10base2, the signal you are detecting is at the same voltage as the signal you're sending.17:59
SpeedEvilWith wifi, it is literally often billions of times weaker.17:59
DocScrutinizerso when I send a signal over a wire and my local RX doesn't receive what I've sent, I detect a collision17:59
* ShadowJK vaguely remembers some researches recently announcing a breakthrough in receive-while-transmitting17:59
DocScrutinizerdo that with a RF transciever ;-P17:59
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SpeedEvilShadowJK: There is lots of poorly understood press-releases in this area.18:00
SpeedEvilSlashdot recently picked up one that's reinvented the phased array transmitter.18:00
SpeedEvilBadly.18:00
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: also all those csma/cd technologies rely on a wired-or properity of the medium18:02
DocScrutinizerwhich isn't given for simple over-the-air RF transmission schemens18:03
SpeedEvilThe nasty fundamental problem of shared wireless is that you can interfere with signals you can't quite demofulate.18:03
SpeedEvildemodulate18:03
DocScrutinizeryes18:03
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DocScrutinizerthe normal case even18:03
SpeedEvilThis is somewhat fixe by 60GHz, as distant transmitters that you cannot pick up can be vasrly reduce, as they are absorbed by air.18:04
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ScifigCan anyone please test and vote for my application in extras-testing? http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/marketstoday/0.3-2maemo5/18:16
ScifigApplication details are here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=73120.18:17
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ErwinJungejavispedro, I'm working with SDL_gles to port darkplaces to N900, could I ask you a few questions?20:13
javispedroyes20:14
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ErwinJungeShould I use SDL_SWSURFACE or SDL_HWSURFACE in SDL_SetVideoMode?20:15
javispedrodoesn't matter. if the original used HWSURFACE, leave as is, otherwise use SWSURFACE.20:15
javispedro(both are the same thing for the Maemo SDL)20:16
ErwinJungeOriginal used OPENGL, which made it look for libGL20:16
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ErwinJungeWhich of course didn't really work ;)20:16
ErwinJungephone, brb20:16
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Itschuemoin moin can anyone help me to get zoom function in angry birds rio i play this with preenv wizhout webosgamesmanager20:17
javispedroErwinJunge: you should be aware that neither version of OpenGL ES has all the functionality OpenGL has.20:17
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Itschuehello20:24
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Goliath23hi21:22
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Goliath23I try to make a small change on a meamo project of mine since user requested it.21:22
Goliath23however, I can not push21:22
Goliath23I always get: error: unable to create temporary sha1 filename ./objects/6c: File exists21:22
Goliath23what's this? I already tried re-cloning the wc, but it didn't help. seems to be a server issue?21:23
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ErwinJungejavispedro, back, was a long phonecall21:36
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ErwinJungeI'm aware that neither version of GLES has the functionality that OpenGL has. That's also not what I meant :) Darkplaces was already ported to GLES2 to use on the iPhone. I meant the original used SDL_OPENGL instead of either SDL_HWSURFACE or SDL_SWSURFACE21:38
Juozapashow to use apt-get with * symbol? ex i want to remove mahjong game: apt-get remove *mahjong21:38
Juozapasit returns syntax error21:39
ErwinJungeWhich led to the version of SDL included with the N900 to want to load libGL.so.1, which failed (logically)21:39
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ErwinJungeSo which does Maemo SDL use internally? SW_SURFACE or HW_SURFACE?21:40
ErwinJungeIt would be nice to put the right one in the code directly, just for clarity21:40
javispedroSWSURFACE=021:41
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javispedroso nothing=SWSURFACE ;)21:41
javispedrointernally, only SWSURFACE Is used.21:41
ErwinJungeGreat, thanks21:45
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SpeedEvilhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/14560445@N08/6018518751/in/photostream21:56
SpeedEvilI need to take a better pic21:56
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* javispedro ponders about SDL_HWSURFACE and XRender21:57
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ErwinJungejavispedro, I seem to be inadvertently opening 2 screens, where I want only 1.22:07
javispedro?22:07
ErwinJunge1 screen has the correct title, but stays black, the other screen has title "unknown" but has the actual menu content of the game22:08
ErwinJungeEver heard of this happening before?22:08
javispedroyou mean windows22:08
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ErwinJungeYeah, sorry22:08
javispedroare you changing between fullscreen and windowed mode?22:08
peterbjornxhello everyone22:08
ErwinJungeI might be... (still learning the code). Could that be the reason if I am?22:09
peterbjornxi messed up on my n90022:09
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peterbjornxi kinda nuked the /usr/lib library directory22:09
javispedroErwinJunge: on the SetVideoMode call add SDL_FULLSCREEN to flags, and remove any other call that toggles Fullscreen mode22:10
lcukpeterbjornx, so reflash?22:10
peterbjornxi had been on windows too long and assumed CP would ask for permission to replace files22:10
peterbjornxi cannot22:10
peterbjornxit doesnt get to USB icon22:10
javispedronuking the /usr/lib directory doesn't cause again, so "try harder" =)22:11
peterbjornxi think init itself crashes or something very early in the init process22:11
javispedros/cause again/cause that/22:11
infobotjavispedro meant: nuking the /usr/lib directory doesn't cause that, so "try harder" =)22:11
lcukpower down, remove battery, insert usb cable, start flasher until it says "cannot find device", insert battery.22:11
lcuktry that22:11
peterbjornxok22:11
peterbjornxi feared the worst as i have seen from the bootmenu code that the flasher device-end code appeared to be a linux program and not part of the bootloader22:12
* lcuk never sees usb icon or presses keys because device is always upside down22:12
ErwinJungejavispedro, if I call SetVideoMode multiple times, I have to set SDL_FULLSCREEN everytime, right? Or is it a toggle?22:14
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javispedroErwinJunge: everytime. but, why are you calling it multiple times?22:14
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ErwinJungeI'm not sure if it actually is called multiple times :) If SDL_VIDEORESIZE is ever emitted, it is called.22:15
ErwinJungeDoes Maemo ever emit that?22:15
ErwinJungeAlso, the engine might recreate the screen when starting the actual game (and thus exiting the menu). Starting the game makes the extra screen vanish.22:17
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ErwinJunges/screen/window/22:20
infobotErwinJunge meant: Also, the engine might recreate the window when starting the actual game (and thus exiting the menu). Starting the game makes the extra screen vanish.22:20
ErwinJunges/screen/window/g22:20
infobotErwinJunge meant: Also, the engine might recreate the window when starting the actual game (and thus exiting the menu). Starting the game makes the extra window vanish.22:20
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peterbjornxIcuk, without the U key it didnt stay in update mode but just crashed, but while pressing U key it worked22:31
DocScrutinizerlcuk: you know NOLO is waiting for some magic chars on USB, on boot, for detecting flasher waiting. It does this for a really short period of time, unless you hold 'u' key. You also are aware that on some machines flasher spts out its never ending sequence of magic incantations to invoke NOLO flashing more in a somewhat slowed down way? Bottom line: it's not completely useless to suggest holding 'u', even when users do the battery shuffle22:31
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lcukDocScrutinizer, then you tell him to :P22:32
peterbjornxi did lol22:32
peterbjornxand it worked22:32
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DocScrutinizerpremium timing X-D22:33
peterbjornxcan i upgrade firmware without flashing the eMMC22:33
DocScrutinizeryes22:33
lcuklol22:33
peterbjornxok , might have been a dumb question but i just wanted to be sure22:33
Sicelohmm. my keypad lights go on & off for no apparent reason, with extra screen brightness each time keypdad lights switch off22:34
peterbjornxall kb lights?22:34
peterbjornxor just lower left and right corners22:34
Siceloyeah, whole keypad22:35
DocScrutinizerSicelo: ambient light sensor22:35
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peterbjornxi hated that thing on the N8 i had for a short while22:35
DocScrutinizerSicelo: cover upper left corner of display frame in landscape, and see kbd bl switch on22:36
peterbjornxwasnt possible to set screen to full brightness permanently on that piece of ****22:36
peterbjornxbut now i have a N900 again22:36
Siceloi used to think it was ALS. but is that expected to happen even when ambient light level is constant?22:36
javispedroErwinJunge: (sorry for delay) SDL_VIDEORESIZE might be emitted, but I suggest ignoring it on Maemo; just open fullscreen at either size 0x0 or 800x48022:37
DocScrutinizerSicelo: if you cover up the sensor then yes22:37
ErwinJungeOk, I'll put an ifndef around it22:37
peterbjornxalso, can anyone give me a complete pinout of testpads in the n90022:37
DocScrutinizersensor has a rather spotlight/tele type of characteristics22:37
Siceloyes DocScrutinizer. that works. nothing obstructing sensor in any way22:37
peterbjornxi know this is the maemo channel but as the n900 is the only current maemo device22:38
DocScrutinizerin a room with dark ceiling and some bright lights a tilting of device by a few degrees completely changes ALS' idea of ambient brightness22:38
ErwinJungeBtw, I'm now manually passing -DFREMANTLE to gcc, but is there a define set by the system that I can detect?22:38
javispedroErwinJunge: nope, unless you use Hildon, which you don't.22:38
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javispedropersonally I use MAEMO and MAEMO_VERSION22:38
javispedro(I mean, I define them)22:39
ErwinJungeAnything I can detect in the makefile?22:39
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javispedroyes, cat /etc/maemo_release22:39
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javispedrobut they you need to depend on maemo-release-dev iirc22:39
DocScrutinizerpeterbjornx: no, there's no such complete list of testpads available publically22:39
ErwinJungeGreat, thanks for the tip22:39
DocScrutinizerpeterbjornx: there are partial lists on the wiki22:40
peterbjornxok, so only that image with rs232 and usb pads then?22:40
peterbjornxand the wiki22:40
DocScrutinizeryes22:40
DocScrutinizerkinda22:40
DocScrutinizerI know of some more names, but dunno the meanings22:41
DocScrutinizerso it's useless22:41
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DocScrutinizerone of them is FBUS iirc, so probably modem-related22:41
peterbjornxwell it might be in the schematics (the name i think , not the actual pads)22:42
DocScrutinizerI suspect there have to be JTAG pads as well, but those are unknown22:42
DocScrutinizerno, nuttin useful in schematics22:43
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ErwinJungejavispedro, Do I put the calls to SDL_GLES_SetAttribute before or after SDL_GLES_CreateContext() and SDL_GLES_MakeCurrent()? Currently they're after, but I based that on what I saw neverball use.22:45
peterbjornxtotally unrelated question, what are the major pitfalls when porting a normal GL program to GLES\22:45
javispedroErwinJunge: before22:45
DocScrutinizeranyway I know for calibrating of modem RF the factory usually *hates* to go via APE programs. They insist in connecting to modem directly22:45
ErwinJungeCould that explain the multiple windows?22:46
a-sainthello guys I am having problems on N900 with wifi ............ sometimes it shows the ssid on my router sometimes it shows all the networks arround but not my network22:46
ErwinJungepeterbjornx, that depends on the version of GL and the version of GLES22:46
peterbjornxmaybe your router has a bad antenna22:46
peterbjornxwell, im targeting the n900 so iirc gles 2.022:47
ErwinJungeit also does 1.122:47
peterbjornxand my program uses GL 1. something22:47
peterbjornxand some ARB22:47
a-saintpeterbjornx I wish this was the problem but my pc and other devices sees it well22:47
DocScrutinizerthey also hate to plug in fiddly connectors like micro-USB that can't get mated automatically, so there are the D+/- pads and the VBUS pad on those testpads22:47
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javispedroErwinJunge: the Maemo SDL uses two windows, one for fullscreen and one for windowed mode.22:48
peterbjornxa-saint, i dont know it either then22:48
a-saintpeterbjornx I wish this was the problem but my pc and other devices sees it well22:48
a-saintpeterbjornx I wish this was the problem but my pc and other devices sees it well22:48
DocScrutinizerand *usually* you got some 4 JTAG pins as well, so you can do proper QA in factory, check for dead solder points etc22:48
a-saintpeterbjornx sorry quick typing ............... will wireless tools help22:48
javispedroErwinJunge: it's long to explain. But either way, windowed mode on Maemo has a rather large performance hit so if this is a GL game it's bets you use Fullscreen and forget about windows.22:48
ErwinJungeThat was the plan all along, which is why I regard the multiple windows thing as a problem ;)22:49
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peterbjornxa-saint,i dont know, DocScrutinizer: that would make sense22:49
DocScrutinizerJTAG *might* be the way they do things like ALS calibration etc at service points22:50
javispedroErwinJunge: if you are in fullscreen, you do not see the windows =)22:50
javispedro(despite the fact they are there)22:50
ErwinJungeBut will they still both be there?22:50
ErwinJungeAhhhh22:50
ErwinJungeSo there are supposed to be 2 windows22:50
peterbjornxim not really into high end microcontrollers and mobile processors22:50
a-saintanyone besides peterjbjornx22:51
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peterbjornxJTAG was a serial debugging/flashing interface, right?22:51
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DocScrutinizerJTAG is a special protocol plus hw that allows access to all boundry-check enabled chips' pins directly22:53
DocScrutinizerbasically a loooong shift register22:53
ErwinJungepeterbjornx, I don't really know enough to conclusively say this, but OpenGL 1.5 should be ported to OpenGL ES 1.1, since they are sort of similar. javispedro probably knows more about this :)22:53
DocScrutinizer4 pins22:53
a-sainthello guys I am having problems on N900 with wifi ............ sometimes it shows the ssid on my router sometimes it shows all the networks arround but not my network22:53
peterbjornxerwinjunge, how about ARB VBO's22:53
DocScrutinizer~jtag22:53
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, jtag is a method of reflashing bricked devices. it stands for "joint test access group", if joshua_ remembers correctly. the method used is called "boundary scan" over a parallel port. it works by sending commands to twiddle individual pins on the CPU. LART JTAG info can be found at http://www.lart.tudelft.nl/projects/jtag/ .22:53
ErwinJungejavispedro, a related question, does using GLES1.1 instead of GLES2 incur a performance hit, or is it just the flexibility of shaders?22:53
javispedroon the pvr there's little performance hit.22:54
javispedroother chipsets have more problems.22:54
ErwinJungepeterbjornx, you have thoroughly lost me :), see http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES22:54
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ErwinJungeIt has a neat graphic on the differences between the different versions of GL22:55
peterbjornxARB (dunno what it stands for) vertex buffer objects22:55
ErwinJungejavispedro, so GLES2 is slightly faster than GLES1.1, or the other way around?22:55
DocScrutinizerMEH, better try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jtag22:55
DocScrutinizerthis link of infobot is dead22:56
javispedroErwinJunge: I do not think the difference is significant on PVR, but other chipsets implement 1.1 on top of 2, and some do a poorly job at that.22:56
ErwinJungepeterbjornx, from the page I just linked: Sami Kyöstilä has developed a number of utilities. This includes SDL with OpenGL ES 1.x support, libglutes, python-opengles and several translators to convert OpenGL ES and OpenGL. Note that these utilities are designed for the Nokia N810 and OpenGL ES 1.x.22:56
DocScrutinizer~factinfo jtag22:56
infobotjtag -- last modified at Sat Jun 28 04:49:56 2003 by joshua_!joshua@h002078c680df.ne.client2.attbi.com; it has been requested 4 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 2m 57s ago.22:56
ErwinJungejavispedro, interesting, thanks22:57
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a-saintcan anyone help me solve my problem23:00
peterbjornxthanks, something else unrelated , i cant charge my battery with the nokia charger adapter cable and a thin-plug nokia adapter, it does provide power and n900 says it is charging but the battery doesnt charge (after multiple hours its still empty)(offtopic) nice, TU Delft (proud to be dutch)23:00
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a-saintthere must be someone who knows or at least tell me to throw my n900 away23:04
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ErwinJungepeterbjornx, I don't get the TU Delft reference23:10
ErwinJungeRegarding the battery issues, I have no idea23:10
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DocScrutinizera-eh?23:12
DocScrutinizerwtf? a-saint?23:12
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DocScrutinizerpeterbjornx: please elaborate on "nokia charger adapter cable" and "thin-plug nokia adapter"23:13
DocScrutinizerpeterbjornx: sorry, have to run, RL calling. Generic advice: use bq27200.sh for better insight what's up with charging and battery. Search wiki for related pages23:14
DocScrutinizero/23:15
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peterbjornxanyone still here?23:41
sevardno23:43
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