IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2011-06-22

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NTUhi!00:00
konttori_homecehteh, otoh, with X in place, putting gtk to run in n9 shouldn't be too much of trouble00:00
anidelkonttori_home: great blog post00:01
konttori_homeanidel, thanks00:01
anidelthanks to you guys.00:01
Arkenoiso i guess almost all n900 apps will run, except maybe some abandonware00:01
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NTUwhich kernels have been proved to work with ARM with a root fs on MicroSD?00:02
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NTU2.6.36.4 i keep getting Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0) but with 2.6.32.something it works fine00:03
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NTUsame kernel config00:03
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DrGrovEvening00:04
NTUAH HOY! \o00:04
NTU:D00:07
anidelthat's weird..the gunzip -qt for the integrity test is fine,but then soon after the tar command says no such file or directory ????00:09
anidelah I see I see... /tmp ..mmm00:10
konttori_homeArkenoi, we changed the toolchain, with change in float support. All applications that use floats need to be recomplied, but I've been using many apps directly from fremantle repository.00:10
Arkenoikonttori_home, binary? that's great. it might be also possible to have some LD_PRELOAD wrapper for ones that broke?00:11
konttori_homeYeah. Binaries work fine. And debs. So I have just installed directly from debs that are in the repo.00:12
konttori_homejust open terminal, type gainroot, and then start installing the debs. (Oh, and need to seelct the allow installation of unsigned debs from settings)00:13
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javispedroArkenoi: technically yes. It is absolutely hard though.00:15
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javispedroI did something similar for one topsecret project of mine00:15
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* GeneralAntilles wishes we had a ship date.00:16
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anidelGeneralAntilles: we do... later this year00:17
GeneralAntillesanidel, go die.00:17
javispedrothat is a "ship year", not a ship date.00:17
RST38hGAN: Elop will have enough time to cancel it before it ships00:17
* anidel obeys00:17
javispedroomg just keep it quiet then, do not let elop realize what the company he rules is manufacturing00:17
GeneralAntillesI can't believe anybody could look at THAT and say "Man, this is shit. Let's get us some WP7!!"00:17
anidelI still can't believe they didn't believe in MeeGo with this shiny UI00:18
anidelprobably the issue for them was to attract commercial apps?00:18
GeneralAntillesThese demos look like they absolutely wipe the floor with iOS and Android.00:18
javispedrofakeselop already said that he'll be mad if anyone buys a n9.00:18
GeneralAntillesI mean.00:18
GeneralAntillesHoly shit00:18
anidelkonttori_home: I guess Harmattan and Fremantle won't coexist peacefully ?00:19
javispedroGeneralAntilles: as I was saying when I played with sdk I have to admit: it feels diferently.00:19
konttori_homeanidel, of course they will.00:19
GeneralAntillesanidel, fight to the death.00:19
javispedromaybe it's just because of the forced protrait =). but looks like a different thing.00:19
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lolcatNokia really made a crap N9 :(00:19
anidelkonttori_home: cool , will tell you if all my targets are still there and fine :)00:19
konttori_homeJust upload the same source to extras devel of fremantle and harmattan00:19
konttori_homeit'll be compiled to both.00:19
anidelit's almost done...00:20
GeneralAntillesPortrait focus is stupid00:20
GeneralAntillesI want a pocket computer, not a phone.00:20
anidelI mean locally00:20
Jaffakonttori_home: Can Maemo 5 backups of Contacts, Calendars and wifi settings be restored in Harmattan? :)00:20
Arkenoii guess forced portrait mode is temporary00:20
javispedroGeneralAntilles: can you ever decide yourself! first you wanted pervasive portrait support, now you want pervasive landscape support, make up your mind!00:21
javispedro>;P00:21
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konttori_homeContacs and calendar entries are transferred if you use switch. Hmm... and emails afaik.00:21
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, I never wanted any such thing!00:21
konttori_homeBut not wlan settings00:21
GeneralAntillesQuit putting whines in my mouth!00:21
anidelXournal on the Fremantle target won't compile anymore :(00:21
konttori_homeand the backups are not compatible, so you need to use switch "application" in N9 settings00:21
konttori_homeTen put BT on on both and follow the instructions00:22
anidelconfigure: error: cannot find install-sh or install.sh in "." "./.." "./../.."00:22
konttori_homeGeneralAntilles, we made intentionally full landscape support to be a themable element.00:22
cehtehanidel: autoreconf -fi00:22
cehteh(maybe ... )00:22
Jaffakonttori_home: That didn't work so good between a C7 and a broken USB-ported N900 last week :-/00:22
GeneralAntilleskonttori_home, does the task switcher support landscape?00:23
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konttori_homeSo, you can create a theme that makes home and lock screens support also landscape00:23
Jaffakonttori_home: But good to know, thanks00:23
konttori_homeyeah, it does. ... if you create a theme that asks it to support00:23
GeneralAntillesBut that's not true out of the box?00:23
konttori_homeNo00:23
GeneralAntillesUgh00:23
MohammadAGif the UI is as open as hildon, adding landscape mode shouldn't be hard00:23
RST38hjavispedro: it is manufacturing money00:23
konttori_homeBelieve me, we thought about that a lot00:23
anidelcehteh: that generates them, but a dpkg-buildpackage removes them00:23
konttori_homeIt's the part that we wanted as flawless experience as possible00:23
RST38hjavispedro:and Elop is an effective manager that will make it manufacture more money00:24
cehtehanidel: then the rules are borked00:24
RST38hjavispedro: by selling it off =)00:24
GeneralAntillesDevices that want to dictate how you use them are unfortunate.00:24
konttori_homeand supporting both orientations would cause rotation needs when user is looking at switcher00:24
anidelI just installed Harmattan Platform SDK and I think it broke Fremantle00:24
konttori_homeand there was no good way to make that look impeckable. So, we made the call to go full out portrait00:24
javispedroanidel: it should not00:25
anideljavispedro: well it did00:25
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javispedroanidel: it is more "isolated" than diablo->fremantle, less chances for breakage ;)00:25
javispedrowhat's the problem?00:25
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konttori_homeSo, we decided to make it an option. I think it was the right thing to do.00:25
konttori_homenight now all00:25
anideljavispedro: I can't buildpackage anymore00:25
javispedronite konttori_home , pleased to have you here!00:25
javispedroanidel: error message?00:26
anidelone sec I'll pastebin it00:26
javispedroand are you on x86 or armel?00:26
javispedroo00:26
javispedrok00:26
anidelX86 btw00:26
anidelhttp://pastebin.com/rpwXAGNk00:27
anidelLine 47: aclocal-1.8 command not found00:27
javispedrouuh.00:27
anidelah it's 1.900:27
javispedroI do have /scratchbox/tools/autotools though00:27
anidelautogen.sh was using -1.8 for aclocal and automake00:28
anidelremoved -1.8 and it's working..00:28
javispedrothat find thing doesn't look right either00:28
anidelyeah00:28
javispedroyou should try and update the debian devkits to hathor too00:28
javispedroif you did not previously00:28
javispedroI mean the sarge, etc.00:28
javispedroor use the squeeze one for fremantle00:29
anideldidn't touch it for a while :)00:29
javispedro(it also works00:29
javispedro)00:29
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GeneralAntillesDid the FCC post the RM-680 manuals yet?00:31
javispedrodo they have to?00:31
javispedroalso, manuals, pfft.00:31
GeneralAntillesConfidentiality is up00:32
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: Later this week, isn't it?00:34
GeneralAntillesDunno.00:34
javispedro... Now I only want you gone....00:35
javispedrothat's probably what elop is singing now to Meego.00:35
javispedro... Go make some new disaster ...00:35
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javispedroI got a bazillion dollars by moving to WP7, ... it's such a shame the same thing won't happen to you ...00:38
javispedrostupid song.00:38
javispedroget out of my head!00:38
anidelso uhm I gues there's an emulator...how do I start it?00:38
javispedroanidel: sbox is not an emulator!00:39
javispedroanidel: enter harmattan_x86 target, start xephyr as usual,00:39
anidel"there is an" not "is an" :P00:39
anidelbut yeah.. you're right :p00:39
javispedroexport DISPLAY=:2 (usually)00:40
javispedromeego-sb-session start00:40
javispedroenjoy.00:40
javispedrorun-standalone.sh seems to have been replaced with meego-run00:40
JaffaAwww00:40
anidelah ok00:40
JaffaI already miss run-standalone.sh00:41
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javispedroJaffa: I already aliased it ;P00:41
JaffaProves it'snot Maemo ;)00:41
javispedroI plan to keep on devving for diablo/fremantle for a while, so muscle memory will suffer if I have to remember to type run-<TAB> or meego-r<TAB>00:42
anidelno meego-sb-session.. need to install some nokia stuff as it was for Fremantle I guess?00:42
pwnguindoes maemo5 work with enterprise wpa2?00:42
javispedroanidel: no, I hadn't, everything was on the rootstrap00:42
javispedroanidel: did you an automated install?00:42
anidelit's there... I am running a script, something must be wrong.. let me check00:43
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anidelstarting :)00:44
pwnguin"AP denied association (code=12)00:44
anidelthe script was selecting FREMANTLE_X86 instead of Harmattan :p00:44
javispedropwnguin: should.00:44
pwnguinhmm00:45
pwnguinthis is new00:45
pwnguinits asking me for a cert password00:45
javispedrostupid Acer.00:45
javispedrome: "I need a driver update to install W7 SP1. MS has blacklisted your driver." Acer: so sue us.00:45
pwnguin... aaaaand, ive killed the wifi chiop00:46
pwnguin/driver00:46
anidelcool.. everything is up and running.. now I need to work on Xournal to make it run :(00:48
javispedroanidel: was it Gtk+? :)00:48
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anideljavispedro: of course :)00:49
javispedro(I mean, I Know it originally was)00:49
javispedroanidel: plan to rewrite, or...?00:49
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pwnguin"AP denied association (code=17)00:50
anideljavispedro: not sure yet.. but mostly yeah. There's a guy on xournal-dev who rewrote Xournal in C++ but it's still WIP.. I might use that as a base00:50
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javispedroI still need more indoctrination to be able to throw gtk+ code bases ;P00:50
anidel:)00:52
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Sazpaimon_god00:52
Sazpaimon_when the N9 was being teased00:52
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Sazpaimon_i was so hoping it would only be in black00:52
anidelI had to port libgnomecanvas to Maemo to make Xournal work. Using the Xournal++ +Qt would save me the hassle00:52
Sazpaimon_but the blue variant00:52
Sazpaimon_it looks so good00:52
javispedroanidel: you didn't use cairo?00:52
javispedroah, It wasn't available either back then00:53
javispedroI bet.00:53
Sazpaimon_it just looks better than black00:53
Sazpaimon_i dont know why00:53
anideljavispedro: nope as it was the code base from the Nokia 77000:53
Sazpaimon_i hate colorful cases00:53
Sazpaimon_but it just looks better00:53
anidelanyway...it needed a rewrite anyway..00:53
anidelthe whole logic and UI were not separated at all00:53
anidela bit of a mess00:53
anidelpure C and GTK from the guy who wrote it00:54
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anidelswitching to Fremantle meant a huge rewrite of the UI00:54
anideland now.. again.. but I guess it shall be faster with Qt00:54
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anideljavispedro: this is the idea of next Xournal: https://picasaweb.google.com/anidel/XournalNextGenUI00:54
anidelmore or less00:54
MohammadAGplanning to use Qt or QML?00:55
javispedroit looks iphoneish ;P00:55
anidelQML possibly00:55
javispedro(which might be good considering the target palatform ;P )00:55
MohammadAGtsk tsk :P00:55
anideljavispedro: was made by Patricia (Brasil) at the Barcelona event :)00:55
anidelMohammadAG: what?00:55
MohammadAGnothing, I'm just anti-QML :P00:56
anidelwhy?00:56
MohammadAGhigh memory usage, way too much stuff to be reimplemented rather than reused00:57
anidelI mean, I now nothing still about QML, QtQuick or pure Qt Widgets.. so :) I'm open to suggestions00:57
MohammadAGand I dislike interpretted languages00:57
anidelme too, but it looked cool :P I still have to study it though00:57
anidelthat's why the "possibly"00:57
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MohammadAGwell, give QML a go at first I suppose00:58
anidelwill see00:58
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anidelcool Xournal promoted to Testing... hope to get the 10 votes asap as the Extras version is sooooo oold01:00
pigeonis there an faq about the n9 and n950? i'm actually quite confused about the two.01:02
anidelhttp://www.developer.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes.html01:03
Arkenoin950 is n9 with 4" tft, keyboard, no nfc and black aluminium casing.01:03
javispedroanidel: same as me.01:04
javispedro(not really tried maemo qt, qt quick or qt slow)01:04
anidel:)01:04
anideltime is an issue here01:04
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pigeonanidel Arkenoi thanks01:05
javispedroanidel: yes... it wasn't in n900 days :(01:05
javispedroat least for me.01:06
Arkenoiwhy no nfc i do not really get01:06
divana few slightly blurred photos of N950 from presentation in Moscow: http://s54.radikal.ru/i143/1106/c2/0c5cac51365e.jpg http://s014.radikal.ru/i327/1106/01/fc527d975e3e.jpg http://s52.radikal.ru/i135/1106/37/6075f653f676.jpg http://s009.radikal.ru/i310/1106/41/f3bf2b482949.jpg01:06
anideljavispedro: for me neither..had much time to dedicate to it...01:06
anidelI mean Xournal is READY NOW... when the N9 is out :) bit late :p01:06
anidelstill got 233+k downloads according to the Maemo Downloads page!01:06
javispedro:)01:08
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pigeonsorry but what is nfc?01:08
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anidelNear Field Communication01:08
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anidelgotta go.. later guys01:09
pigeonah01:09
Sazpaimon_divan, wow that is a large device01:09
Sazpaimon_i thought it was a lot thinner than that01:10
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Sazpaimon_also the N950 is still a primarily portrait device01:12
ArkenoiSazpaimon_, i think it will be fixed soon01:12
Sazpaimon_I hope so, because this: http://mobilenet.cz/obrazek/nokia-n950-62145/ is a little embarrasing01:13
Sazpaimon_oh hey01:13
Sazpaimon_is that a terminal app I spy down there?01:13
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Arkenoiyes, terminal is there01:14
Sazpaimon_http://mobilenet.cz/obrazek/nokia-n950-62157/ also looks like the 12 MP AF text is no more01:14
Sazpaimon_whatever happened to that01:14
divann950 looks awesome, even without amoled :)01:15
wmaroneman01:15
wmaronethat looks awesome, too bad it'll be mostly impossible to get :/01:15
javispedroSazpaimon_: launcher rotates on SDK here01:15
divanfor a few next years that's exactly that phone which we need :)01:15
divanwmarone, I know, yeah01:15
wmaroneall the N9's guts, in that case, would be win01:16
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Sazpaimon_javispedro, what the hell then01:16
divanElop is bitch01:16
wmaronewell, more win than the N9 or N950 alone01:16
javispedroSazpaimon_: http://depot.javispedro.com/nit/harmattansdk/sdk1.png01:16
divanHe wan't to say at the end of the year - "see, not so many programs and contributions to the harmatta, so we'll close the project"01:16
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Shapeshifterthe icons look so silly with those ultra-round corners01:17
divans/wan't/wants/01:17
infobotdivan meant: He wants to say at the end of the year - "see, not so many programs and contributions to the harmatta, so we'll close the project"01:17
Shapeshifterfor kidz01:17
Sazpaimon_s/harmatta/harmattan01:17
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Shapeshifters/harmattan/manhattan/ amirite01:18
Sazpaimon_elop seems to read engadget comments a lot01:18
Sazpaimon_because he specifically mentioned engadget commenters response to the WP7 strategy01:19
Sazpaimon_maybe 2000+ positive comments in less than 24 hours would be nice01:19
Sazpaimon_how about a positive preview from vlad of all people01:19
Sazpaimon_he hates nokia01:19
loft306eeek! on cnet they say $660 16gb and $749 64gb and availablle at the end of year01:20
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divanSazpaimon_, twitition on that: http://twitition.com/3c3ah01:20
javispedroSazpaimon_: elop, where?01:20
Sazpaimon_loft306, those could very well be the EUR prices with tax01:20
divanloft306, it's rumours. Even Nokia insiders do not know the price.01:20
Sazpaimon_there's no way nokia could sell this device for $74901:21
divanIt's the subject for discussions at the moment, as I know.01:21
loft306justrrepeatiung what i read01:21
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loft306i wouldnt pay that01:21
wmaroneSazpaimon_: between the two posts there are over 3700 comments01:22
Sazpaimon_divan, petitions01:22
Sazpaimon_internet petitions01:22
javispedroomg01:22
Sazpaimon_find me one internet petition that got something done01:22
javispedrothew new bugs.maemo.org: http://www.developer.nokia.com/bugs/01:22
divanFriend of mine asked Nokia people in Moscow whether USB Host Mode will be available on N9 and was told yes.01:22
divanSazpaimon_, just sign ))01:23
Sazpaimon_no01:23
Sazpaimon_i dont support online petitions01:23
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MohammadAGRemind me how many petitions for maemo succeeded? :P01:23
javispedroall of them!01:24
Sazpaimon_you know what would get nokia to continue to support meego?01:24
javispedrospecially that one where we asked for it to be killed01:24
Sazpaimon_if all of their shareholders told them to do it01:24
Sazpaimon_or, if you get every single person in europe to sign that petition01:25
Arkenoidivan: actually the answer was it is available but "inofficial" and requires hacks01:25
Sazpaimon_oh wait, I can just flood the petition with fake signatures01:25
Sazpaimon_the market will decide if nokia will continue to use meego or not01:25
Sazpaimon_not us01:26
Sazpaimon_i also dont have a twitter account01:26
Sazpaimon_someone registered sazpaimon01:27
Sazpaimon_apparently to piss me off because he said i was "cracking symbian apps"01:27
divanSazpaimon_, thanks for link to mobilenet.sz01:27
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divanhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8jH_apD2k01:27
Sazpaimon_when all I did was repack nokia podcasting from an E75 so other S60 v3 FP2 devices could use it01:27
divanAranel, 'required hacks' is ok for us :)01:28
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Sazpaimon_what's that notch next to the A key01:29
Sazpaimon_for locking the keyboard?01:29
Arkenoithe outfit is surprisingly similar to e7. even more similar than old prototypes that had huge screen seen on the internets01:29
Sazpaimon_nope doesnt look like its for locking01:29
Sazpaimon_maybe it was supposed to have an N9 sticker on it01:29
Sazpaimon_i guess i should get a microsim within the next fwe months01:31
Sazpaimon_or at least cut mine01:31
Sazpaimon_does the N950 do microsim?01:31
Sazpaimon_nobody seemed to mention that01:32
Arkenoii doubt cargo cult goes that far01:32
Arkenoibut external dimensions for n9 is _exactly_ iphone 401:33
Sazpaimon_i thought the N9 was a smidge wider than the i401:33
Sazpaimon_well that means they could have fit a slightly smaller batter and made the phone even smaller01:34
Sazpaimon_s/batter/battery01:34
Sazpaimon_also still no word on skype integration01:34
Sazpaimon_but its looking like no01:34
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ArkenoiSazpaimon_, it is there01:34
Sazpaimon_link?01:34
Sazpaimon_ive yet to see it advertised01:35
Arkenoino link, just hearsay01:35
Sazpaimon_would have also liked to have seen qik support01:35
Sazpaimon_so you could videochat with android users01:35
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Arkenoibut they say all maemo communication plugins are still there including skype01:35
Sazpaimon_that's cool at least01:35
Sazpaimon_man i hope nokia approves my company's launchpad request01:36
* javispedro still needs to write ddp application =)01:36
NIN101The prices for N900 are rising.01:37
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Sazpaimon_http://twitter.com/#!/texrat/statuses/83187538411532288 <3 texrat01:39
jacekowskiSazpaimon_: skype sucks01:41
jacekowskiand besides, any word on release date for n9?01:41
Sazpaimon_soon01:42
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jacekowskihmm, cortex-a801:45
jacekowskiunexpected01:45
jacekowskii was really hoping for a901:45
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wmaronejacekowski: as was I, alas it was now or never for this one01:45
jacekowskilooks iphoneish01:48
javispedrojacekowski: looks and feels iphoneish01:49
javispedroand I do agree that the omap3630 is meh...01:50
javispedrobut we expected that, don't we...01:50
jacekowskiwell, with all that fuss about canceling it and stuff you would expect that they redesigned everything01:50
jacekowskiincluding a901:50
wmaroneI think the "cancel" was only the N950 over the hinge01:51
javispedrojacekowski: I think that moving to a9 means leaving TI01:51
jacekowskia10 is on the doorstep01:51
jacekowskijavispedro: why?01:51
jacekowskiti is doing a901:51
javispedrojacekowski: in the sense that Nokia won't accept OMAP4, so they'd had to do the WP7-mandated chip01:51
javispedro(Qualcomm iirc)01:51
jacekowskiwhy they wouldn't accept omap4?01:52
wmaroneI think you mean Microsoft01:52
javispedrowmarone: yes.01:52
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javispedrojacekowski: just a feeling.01:52
wmaroneI'm sure Nokia would be perfectly fine going OMAP4, but Microsoft controls everything about the hardware for WP701:52
javispedrojacekowski: I'll shut up when Nokia ships something new outside of Maemo with a new TI chip01:52
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wmaronethey are rumoring that the Nokia WP7 devices will use the ST-Ericsson A9 chips01:53
javispedro(also, TI moved straight to A15 instead of A10)01:53
ds3are the ST-E A9's crippled?01:53
wmaroneds3: how would they be?01:53
jacekowskihmm, how much memory does it have01:53
ds3the N's are missing useful bits01:54
jacekowski512 or 1G?01:54
wmaroneds3: no clue01:54
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ds3do you really want an A9 though01:55
jacekowskiwell, all we have in n9 is "overclocked" n90001:55
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javispedrojacekowski: slightly less consuming due to reduced die size01:57
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* javispedro hesitates before clicking the submit request button02:15
smhards3, N stands for No something :-)02:15
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MohammadAGjavispedro, (GLaDOS voice) press it!02:18
javispedroDON'T PRESS THAT BUTTON!!!02:18
MohammadAGPRESS IT02:18
merlin1991no don't DO IT02:19
MohammadAG(some Nokian) Hahaha, step 5, boobytrap the Nokia N95002:19
javispedroFOUR PART PLAN PART FIVE!02:19
wmaronehaha02:19
javispedroBOOBYTRAP THE REQUEST DEVELOPER DEVICE BUTTON!02:20
MohammadAGIn other news, Elop aims for the moon, in slowmo02:20
javispedroElop: MEEGO DEVS, ARE YOU STILL ALIVE?? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!02:21
javispedroElop: WELL, I?M STILL IN CONTROL, AND I HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO FIX THIS COMPANY!!02:21
MohammadAGI wonder if Portal 2 was based on Nokia's story02:22
javispedrohey, this works.02:22
MohammadAGxD02:22
javispedroElop: YOU HAD TO PLAY YOUR BLOODY OPENSOURCE GAMES, WHILE PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO WORK!!02:23
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MohammadAGwho's Chell in this case?02:23
MohammadAGoh right MeeGo devs, so who's glados? :P02:23
GAN900MohammadAG, who are we gonna turn into an AI?02:23
GAN900I vote Darius200602:24
javispedroElop: BANKRUPTCY! BANKRUPTCY! WE'RE BANKRUPT! LET GO! LET GO! I STILL HAVE FRIENDS IN MICROSOFT. I CAN STILL PULL ME IN. I CAN STILL FIX THIS!!!02:24
GAN900javispedro, the idea came to him while he was "PWNING NUBS" on Live.02:24
javispedroMohammadAG: clearly Intel: "I though you were my worst enemy, but now I think you're my best friend"02:25
MohammadAGand Caroline?02:26
merlin1991Caroline?02:26
* merlin1991 seems to have missed something while playin02:26
javispedroIntel: you know how was life before you Meego appeared? I just shipped tablets. Nobody tried to kill me. Or convert me into a Handset. Or fed me to Microsoft."02:26
MohammadAGmerlin1991, impossible02:26
javispedros/tablets/netbooks ;P02:26
GAN900Ha02:26
MohammadAGit was in 4 chapters of the game02:26
merlin1991ah the assistant02:26
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SpeedEviljavispedro: Nokia and microsoft. http://blog.chron.com/goodmombadmom/2011/06/in-all-fairness-babies-are-delicious/02:28
* MohammadAG waits for javispedro to do the "goodbye, moblin"02:28
Shapeshiftermh. now that i've seen the n950 in a video, I have to say, it's really sexy. and the animations look smooth at least, not as jerky as on the n900. nice nice02:28
MohammadAGit ryhmes with caroline after all :P02:29
javispedroMohammadAG: not yet sure if I should cast moblin as caroline02:30
MohammadAGjavispedro, but it ryhmes!02:30
javispedrocaroline is something like the intel software division02:30
javispedroa part of intel02:30
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MohammadAGk, fill this in, The surge of emotion that shot through me when I saved your life taught me an even more valuable lesson02:30
javispedroit has to make sense, not rhyme! ;)02:30
javispedroIntel: The next to nothing sales that shot through me when I decided to merge with Maemo taught me an even more valuable lesson: where the money sink lives inside my company.... software division _DELETED_ ;P02:32
MohammadAGjavispedro, this should be a blog post xD02:33
javispedroand obviously the companion cube is abill_uk.02:34
GeneralAntilles"Oops, I fizzled that one too."02:34
MohammadAGLOL02:34
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javispedroCara bel, cara mia bella! Che Maestima! Che Maestima!02:37
javispedroLa mia bambina cara.... perché non resistive??02:37
GeneralAntillesGoddamn baby02:38
GeneralAntilleshttp://cdn6.fonearena.com/i/n9/b/NokiaN9Michael043.jpg02:38
javispedroGeneralAntilles: that baby has more chances than we do to get a n9devkit!02:38
javispedrothis reminds me to PRESS THE BUTTON02:38
GeneralAntillesThey should just mail an N950 to everybody with an active meego.com account.02:39
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merlin1991GeneralAntilles: guess that's because it would include you too? :D02:40
GeneralAntillesRATIONAL SELF INTEREST02:40
javispedroGeneralAntilles: WELL YOU HAVE BEEN REPLACED!02:40
javispedroI DON'T NEED ANYONE NOW02:40
javispedroWHEN I DELETE YOU I MIGHT HAVE ...02:41
javispedrook, stop.02:41
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GeneralAntillesHa02:41
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GeneralAntillesjavispedro, it's after midnight, right?02:41
javispedroyes, I need sleep.02:41
GeneralAntillesGo, fly!02:41
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Sazpaimon_http://www.google.com/search?q=nokia+hatterman02:47
javispedrook, I hit the button. see you and good luck everyone.02:47
* MohammadAG puts javispedro in a potato02:47
MohammadAGnight javispedro :P02:47
Sazpaimon_about 1000 people dont know how to spell02:47
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Sazpaimon_they should have called it Hatterman though02:48
Sazpaimon_then whenever it goes wrong you could yell "HATTERMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN"02:48
GeneralAntillesHamrattan02:50
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* SpeedEvil ponders if the n950 supports partially backlighting hte screen02:55
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Sazpaimon_I hope so, because this: h is a little embarrasingoh02:57
Sazpaimon_N9 DOES have swype02:57
Sazpaimon_i saw a video with swype settings02:58
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GeneralAntillesLiar.03:02
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Sazpaimon_GeneralAntilles, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qkf4iaQyHg&feature=player_detailpage#t=368s03:02
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* GeneralAntilles covers ears and yells "La La La"03:03
Sazpaimon_it doesnt work in this video though03:03
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nox-n950?  will that ever be available to mere mortals?03:04
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Sazpaimon_nox-, no03:04
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Sazpaimon_it'll be available on loan to developers only03:04
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nox-hm ok03:04
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Choomwhat was the developer page for the N9 again?03:15
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ChoomI want to try the SDK03:15
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Choomnevermind, "nokia n9 site:developer.nokia.com" on google found it03:17
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pauly_hey anyone want an n900 with broken screen, broken usb?04:05
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SpeedEvil:/04:06
jpinx-awaypauly_: broken usb might be a claim on warranty04:06
SpeedEvilSure - but you'd probably get a non-zero amount for it on ebay.04:07
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pauly___lol @ my nickname04:09
pauly___um speedevil: wanna offer me anything?04:09
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SpeedEvilAlas - no.04:10
SpeedEvilIt'd be more a random hack project than anything I can justify spending any money at all on.04:10
SpeedEvilEbay - if it's not warrantable would get you at least some cash.04:10
pauly___ya think?04:11
SpeedEvilSure.04:11
pauly___i wanna buy and sell cell phones off craigslist its crazy so many people04:11
pauly___how did u like the N904:11
SpeedEvilhttp://desc.shop.ebay.com/Cell-Phones-Smartphones-/9355/i.html?LH_TitleDesc=1&_nkw=n900+%28faulty%2Cspares%2C%22not+working%22%2Cbroken%2Ccracked%29&_catref=1&_dmpt=PDA_Accessories&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m28204:12
SpeedEvilLooks good.04:12
pauly___speedevil: lol at the white n90004:13
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pauly___speedevil: i ahve to get the data off of it but im to lazy, 8gb sd card and like 20gb data on it.anyone wanna talk to me im bored04:15
SpeedEvilSorry - at the moment I've got no heating on - and it's 14C in here - currently on a very low income, so I'm regrettably able to offer nothing.04:17
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pauly___woah04:18
pauly___speedevil: can i ask u something its a crazy question but in most irc channels why are so many people in a channel and no one is chatting, ive never understood this?04:19
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SpeedEvilSimply as most are at this time asleep.04:21
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pauly___speedevil: why dont they log out?04:22
SpeedEvil7 hours ago - looking back in scroll - there were 6 people talking, and a page went by in 5 mins.04:22
SpeedEvilBecause they can read the past discussions when they were away.04:22
SpeedEvilTheir computer may also go beep if you highlight them.04:22
pauly___ohhhh04:22
SpeedEvilThere are many more people active about 4 hours ago04:23
pauly___but theyed have to have there device or pc on all this time?04:23
bindiIt's 4:23 in here atm04:23
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bindipauly___: their pc needs to be on :)04:23
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bindipauly___: many get free or paid shells, where they can run irssi, so their irc program is ran on a remote host, and they can connect to it when they like, without wasting electricity on their end04:23
ChoomI stay online because my client runs remotely, and that allows me to scroll back and read the context of current conversations04:24
pauly___ohhhhhhhh04:24
Choomanother advantage of runing a remote client is that I can ssh in and resume the session from my cell phone04:24
pauly___i understand04:24
bindiI run irssi on my home server, works wonders :D04:24
Choomor from work04:24
Choombesides, I'm on other channels too04:25
pauly___makes sence04:25
pauly___thanks so much for the info04:25
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pigeonwill the n9's meego/harmattan be available for the n900?04:29
* SpeedEvil looks at his magic-8-ball.04:30
pigeonhahaha04:30
SpeedEvilAsk again later.04:30
SpeedEvilI think it's very unlikely.04:30
SpeedEvilImpossible - no.04:30
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pauly___yes an insider at nokia finland told me theyre  gonna release all the souce code from there closed apps04:31
SpeedEvilBut a large fraction of the UX is - I assume - closed.04:31
SpeedEvilpauly___: I'll believe it when I see it.04:31
pauly___lol i joking04:31
pigeonheh04:31
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Choomthe damn sdk takes ages to install04:33
Choomand I was stupid enough to select more plugins than I need04:33
Choomso it's taking even longer04:33
ChoomInstalling component Harmattan Emulator04:34
pauly___omg reallyy04:34
Choomfinally04:35
Choomit's finished04:35
Choomnow, to check out the N9's UI04:35
Choom(I hope)04:35
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pauly___choom: did u see it04:40
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pauly___maemo5 :)04:53
bindiuh04:53
bindii was using pc suite to use my 3G as the internets04:54
bindiso I disconnected it (in the software)04:54
SpeedEvilUsing that right now.04:54
bindiphone errored04:54
bindiand I shut it down04:54
bindiand it wont boot it anymore04:54
SpeedEvilOdd.04:54
SpeedEvilErrored in what way?04:54
bindiorange led :>04:54
bindiit gets to that part where those 5 dots04:55
bindiloading bar thingy04:55
SpeedEvilIt may be battery low.04:55
bindi2 seconds later it powers off04:55
SpeedEvil~lowbatt04:55
bindijust had it plugged in for hours04:55
bindiconnecting usb makes orange led flashj04:55
SpeedEvilAnyway - plug it in - if the light isn't constant orange - unplug, remove battery, wait 30s, replace.04:56
SpeedEvilplug in - leave it a few hours.04:56
bindinow it started04:56
SpeedEvilThere can be pathalogical states at low charge04:56
bindiand not it shut down04:56
SpeedEvilEspecially with older batteries.04:56
bindinow*04:56
bindihmmmmm.04:56
bindiyup wont start up04:56
bindilet me find the charger-only and not data cable04:57
SpeedEvildoesn't really matter04:57
SpeedEvileither works04:57
bindipc suite is trying to fdiddle with it04:57
bindigod damnit typing04:57
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bindiSo eh.04:59
bindiwhat do I do now04:59
bindireflash?04:59
bindiWhy does it start flashing orange when I plug the usb in?05:00
pauly___charging05:01
pauly___??05:01
bindiorange is error, purple charging05:01
bindiatleast for me :>05:01
SpeedEvilIf it's flashing orange, it's booted05:02
SpeedEvilIt's in ACT_DEAD state05:03
bindihm.05:03
bindiI got it on now.05:03
SpeedEvilyou diddn't pull the battery05:03
bindiany logs I can read on wtf happened?05:03
bindiI just did05:03
SpeedEvilah05:03
bindiand it wouldnt start up even after that05:03
SpeedEvilThe battery got too flat.05:03
pauly___happened to me05:03
SpeedEvilIt can draw a _lot_ of power when tethering.05:03
bindiindeed its empty05:03
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pauly___i broke a usb charger and connected it straight to battery05:04
bindio_O05:04
pauly___to get that lil bit of charge05:04
pauly___a reflash fixed that problem of it always doing that when it gets to flat05:04
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pauly___speedevil: do u remember when that happened to me like 8 months ago05:05
SpeedEvilVagurly05:07
pauly___bindi: what helped me was cutting a usb cheap charger and connecting it straight to the battery itself with the two wires05:07
pauly___and holding it for a min or two05:08
SpeedEvilBut don't do that - it's a bad idea.05:08
pauly___it worked for me05:08
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pauly___or buy spare battery charger off ebay05:09
Thordasinlook for the battry type on goole i bought 2 bateries with a wall charger you plug the bateries in, from china for $1805:10
pauly___i think usa n900 is not popular05:12
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ThordasinI don't know its not as popular as some places but i can buy them off of people here in town of of craigs list all the time.05:14
pauly___where u live05:14
Thordasinoutside of nashville, tn in a little town called nunnelly05:15
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pauly___i live in baltimore05:15
pauly___and like one comes on here once every 3 months05:15
Thordasinhey, i used to work in dc, worked there for 15 years05:15
pauly___craigslist05:15
pauly___cool05:15
Thordasinyeah sonme guy has a n900 on craigs list in nashville for $15605:16
pauly___everyone says i should get an iphone or android05:16
Thordasinwhy the n900 rocks05:16
pauly___i have one with screen and usb broken wanna buy it05:16
Thordasinhow much?05:17
pauly___idk?05:17
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Thordasinnot sure what idk is :)05:18
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pauly___make offer05:18
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pauly___t-mobile coverage sucks05:18
Thordasinwell, don't want to insult you but i'd give $50.00 for it.05:19
pauly___no insult but i dont know05:19
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pauly___i wana fix it but dont have $05:19
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Thordasini bought the one i have now a year ago off of criags list for $300.00 and i love it05:20
pauly___i bought one last week for $18005:20
Thordasinnot bad great deal05:20
Thordasini'm blind so the screen won't bother me too much05:20
pauly___makes sence05:21
bindisense!05:21
bindiD:05:21
Thordasinyou know anything about linux and the maemo distro?05:21
pauly___lil bit but i cant compile shit05:22
pauly___cause i suck at everything05:22
Thordasinmy question is about starting apps. i'm modifying the rootfs trying to put sshhd on it so i can get into the phone over ip05:22
pauly___no idea05:22
pauly___lol05:22
Thordasinbut it doesn't seem to start05:23
Thordasinwell i put the files where they belong init.d/ssh and rc2.d/S70ssh but no joy05:23
pauly___beause linux sucks and windows all the way for the win the true open os windows lol05:24
Thordasindo you have ssh installed?05:24
pauly___i have barely anything05:24
Thordasinbummer05:24
bindier05:25
Thordasinthere are some cool apps in the repo05:25
bindiinstalling openssh-server should do the trick05:25
pauly___i flip cars off craigslist05:25
Thordasinbindi:  i can't use the graphical interface cause i'm blind so i'm haveing to modify the roots and flash it.05:25
bindias you wish :P05:26
Thordasinreally thats a way to make some money huh :)05:26
pauly___not really it sucks05:27
Thordasinbindi:  nope not as i wish, if i could see i'd be happier to do it the normal way :)05:27
bindijust wondering how you ircing :D05:27
Thordasini am useing vinux which is a blind user version of ubuntu 10.04 and pidgin, they are reading me everything05:28
pauly___hey im out :)05:28
Thordasinbindi:  do you have sshd installd on your n900?05:28
bindiThordasin: I did, not anymore, why?05:29
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Thordasinoh i was gonna ask if you could tar up your root fs and send it to me so i can study where it modified the files05:29
Thordasinthere should be a way to chroot into the mounted jffs2 and install the package05:30
bindino idea about about that05:30
bindiim getting ready for reflashing my phone05:30
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Thordasinbindi:  right now i have the rootfs.jffs2 mounted on /media/rootfs andi'm doing dpkg -x into there and then adding startup files myself05:31
bindicluttered with shit, nitdroid wont uninstalll etc. easy way :D05:31
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bindiThordasin: i'm sorry but i don't have much linux knowledge, i can just apt-get and thats about it :D05:31
Thordasinbindi:  oh well thanks, what you reflashing to?05:31
bindilatest official ofc05:32
Thordasinis that pr 1.305:32
bindiyeah05:32
Thordasinthats what i have on now, i had meego on it for a few months but i keep running into some problems working on it so i'm gonna try and do my work under maemo, if i can get into the phone that is :)05:33
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bindiyeah I had CSSU and uh some tweaks like swappolube05:34
bindiended up making installing packages slow05:35
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bindiand nitdroid wouldnt uninstall05:36
bindioh he left :<05:36
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bindiwb05:36
Thordasinbindi:  sorry bout that lost connection.05:36
bindiyou parted05:36
Thordasinyeah i have to toggle between the typeing area and the viewing are to read what you say, and everyone once and a while i end up in th chan serv and can't get out of it.05:37
bindioh :P05:37
bindisucks05:37
Thordasinnot too bad if i'm careful it doesn' happe to often :)05:38
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Thordasini hit f6 to toggle over to the viewing are, and tab to get back but if i forget where i am and hit f6 in the view area i get chan server :)05:38
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bindiso cant you hit tab twice? or something05:39
Thordasini tried but it doesn't work05:39
bindiaw05:39
bindiexcuse me now05:39
bindiapparently need to let the phone recharge before flashing05:39
Thordasini'm sure there is a way out of it, but i ahven't figured it out yet, so for now i just hit escape and re-enter the room.05:39
bindigonna head for bed, its 6 am soon :P05:40
bindign05:40
Thordasinwow take care :)05:40
Thordasingn to you as well.05:40
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SpeedEvilHmm - mod points, and n9 story on /.05:48
DocScrutinizersure05:49
Choompeople still mod slashdot?05:51
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: I'm temped to write a decent "how to charge McGyver style" paper, rather than having semi-n00bs spread potentially dangerous simplifications05:55
SpeedEvilChoom: sometimes.05:55
SpeedEvilKust went through the thread modding insightfull/troll.05:56
ChoomI've disabled my willingness to moderate like 10 years ago05:56
Choommetamod twice a day + mod points every 3 days were driving me insane05:56
Choomand I figured I was probably getting in the way of people who actually wanted to mod05:56
DocScrutinizerI take pride in the fact I hafe NFC what you are talking about ;-D05:57
DocScrutinizerhave*05:57
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DocScrutinizermight be related to my ignorance about /. in general05:58
Choomnowadays I'm just a luerker there05:58
ChoomI may post something to it twice a year now05:59
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DocScrutinizerso even the N9 rumble went down now?06:00
DocScrutinizerhere06:00
DocScrutinizerI'm pondering since 12h to add a "YES, WE HEARD...<URL>" to the topic, anticipating the late excited ones06:02
DocScrutinizermaybe not needed06:02
* SpeedEvil wonders why his net will occasionally die till he traceroutes something. (3g)06:02
DocScrutinizerNAT06:03
DocScrutinizerplus maybe traffic shaper06:03
DocScrutinizerQoS/ToS06:04
DocScrutinizerwho knows06:04
SpeedEvilyeah06:05
DocScrutinizermaybe winP7 or spyPhone do traceroutes frequently, so they tried some weird optimization?06:05
SpeedEvilIRC freezes, and if I notice in the 2 mins before timeout - traceroute brings it back06:05
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Macerwow so nokia is seriously releasing an N950?06:06
Sazpaimon_huh06:06
Sazpaimon_no06:06
Sazpaimon_last i heard its only being released to registered nokia developers06:07
Macerhttp://www.slashgear.com/nokia-n950-confirmed-for-meego-devs-4-inch-qwerty-slider-21160505/06:07
DocScrutinizerI wonder why my N900 falls outa my router's ARP table every now and then06:07
Sazpaimon_and 250 devices to meego open source developers06:07
Sazpaimon_Macer, read the article06:07
Maceri did06:07
Macerit mentions that it has no support or warranty06:08
Sazpaimon_and that its for developers06:08
Sazpaimon_see http://www.developer.nokia.com/Devices/MeeGo/#article206:08
Macerit says "This is definately one for developers..."06:08
Macer:)06:08
DocScrutinizerand that they are short on devices, and so there are only 250 for meego06:08
Sazpaimon_"To aid the speedy development of apps for the Nokia N9 smartphone, Nokia has produced a limited number of developer phones, the Nokia N950 phone. This phone isn't available for purchase and can only be obtained through selected developer programs, such as Nokia Developer LaunchPad."06:08
Maceronly 250 N950s? :) wow06:08
Sazpaimon_only 250 N950s given to Meego developers06:08
Sazpaimon_open source meego developers06:09
Sazpaimon_corporate and professional developers obviously get higher priority06:09
Sazpaimon_and a larger amount of devices released06:09
Macerso is the N9 supposed to be the mainstream meego phone06:09
Macer?06:09
DocScrutinizerbut basically they're just short on devices06:09
Sazpaimon_yes06:09
DocScrutinizerperiod06:09
MacerDocScrutinizer: sounds like it ;)06:09
Sazpaimon_the N9 is the commercial device06:09
Sazpaimon_that anyone can buy06:09
Macerdoes the n9 have a qwerty?06:09
Sazpaimon_no06:10
Maceromg fail06:10
Sazpaimon_duct tape a bluetooth keyboard to it06:10
Maceri bet the bt keyboard won't even work06:10
Macer:)06:10
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Sazpaimon_im sure it will06:10
DocScrutinizer"this is NOT a computer, this is a fsckng fake iPhone"06:10
Sazpaimon_try to fit an iphone sliding keyboard case on it06:11
MacerDocScrutinizer: sounds like it06:11
Macerhahaha06:11
Sazpaimon_it may work06:11
Sazpaimon_not well06:11
Sazpaimon_but it may06:11
Macern900 4 life it seems06:11
ChoomI'd call it an iphone without the restrictions06:11
Sazpaimon_the N9 has the same dimensions as an iphone 406:11
Choomwhich is pretty exciting06:11
Maceri hate iphones and android phones06:11
Sazpaimon_http://compare.ebay.com/like/150613381922?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar06:11
Maceri would love to get my hands on an n950 but that isn't being realistic06:11
Maceri will stick with my n900 :)06:11
Sazpaimon_I may get one06:11
Sazpaimon_i signed up through my company06:11
Macer600MHz vs 1GHz06:12
Maceri can deal with the 40% less cpu speed haha06:12
DocScrutinizerIf I'd want such class of device, honestly I'd go for the original, not for the 3rd clone06:12
Choom256mb of ram vs 1gb06:12
Sazpaimon_here's the deal06:12
Choomresistive single-touch screen vs capacitive multitouch06:12
Sazpaimon_if the N9 sells06:12
MacerChoom: is it REAL 1GB? :)06:12
Sazpaimon_the meego team @ nokia can push their bosses to give them more money06:12
Maceror n900 swapped 1GB?06:13
Sazpaimon_to push out more Meego devices06:13
Sazpaimon_but for now, the N9 is to appeal to the masses06:13
Macermeh. i will wait and watch06:13
Sazpaimon_to show Nokia that meego CAN thrive06:13
Sazpaimon_and it CAN sell06:13
Sazpaimon_and it WILL work06:13
Maceri doubt that anything will come from it :)06:13
Macerespecially after they start selling winmob phones to corporate offices06:13
Macerwith exchange as a selling point06:13
Chooma phone will come from it, which quite frankly, is all I want06:13
Macer1 phone that will be old in a year06:14
Sazpaimon_Macer, it's 1GB of physical RAM06:14
Sazpaimon_with 16 or 64GB of internal storage06:14
Choommy n900 is old too06:14
Choomand that's not what bothers me about it06:14
Sazpaimon_you know, I looked at that ebay link06:14
Sazpaimon_and it looks kinda cool06:14
Sazpaimon_i'd dig an N9 version of that06:14
Sazpaimon_even if I do get an N95006:14
SpeedEvilI have 18 n900s stored at -270C, in a vacuum.06:14
DocScrutinizerSazpaimon_: that's gambling high with a poor hand06:14
SpeedEvilMuhahahahahah!06:14
Sazpaimon_DocScrutinizer, what06:15
DocScrutinizerputting all your eggs in the N9-must-sell basket06:15
Sazpaimon_well, obviously the meego team had no choice06:15
Sazpaimon_their budget was shrinking06:15
Choomseriously I don't care whether it sells or not06:16
Choomso long as I can buy one06:16
Sazpaimon_they couldnt convince nokia to give them enough money to produce, promote, and support more than 1 device06:16
Sazpaimon_remember, each device needs to be supported by nokia through warranties, and employees need to be trained06:16
Sazpaimon_so the N9 is nokia telling the meego guys "Okay, let's see what you've got"06:17
DocScrutinizerso they damn sure better came up with a N900-i first06:18
Sazpaimon_why06:18
Sazpaimon_an N900-type device doesn't appeal to the mass market06:18
Sazpaimon_it just doesn't06:18
DocScrutinizerno training, very little risk, and it would kick ass06:18
Sazpaimon_they need a device that can appeal to the masses, so they can use the sales figures to their advantage06:18
Sazpaimon_it would kick ass to you and mee06:19
DocScrutinizerSazpaimon_: silly stupid thinking, I commented on it earlier06:19
Sazpaimon_I'm not saying it's smart06:19
Choomthat doesn't make a lot of sense06:19
Sazpaimon_but it is what it is06:19
moofree03:14 < Sazpaimon_> even if I do get an N95006:19
moofreeyou're gonna send it to me.06:19
Sazpaimon_shut up trollfree06:19
Sazpaimon_get out06:20
Sazpaimon_getoutfrog.gif06:20
Sazpaimon_guys, moofree is a troll06:20
DocScrutinizer[2011-06-21 17:50:13] <DocScrutinizer> (<GeneralAntilles> "Screw the guys we already have, we want other people!" ) BUT... but, there are SO MANY out there that haven't bought our product, and SO FEW here that are happy and and more of what we got! let's just bin it, and start something better, for the masses out there   [2011-06-21 17:52:45] <DocScrutinizer> ... "and first of all let's see what is the stuff *most* people use, then we'll06:20
DocScrutinizertry to outperform Aplle and Google on their own playground. Forget about those linux nerds"06:20
Sazpaimon_ask franz_06:20
Sazpaimon_he knows06:20
Sazpaimon_franz_, look who followed us here06:20
moofreefranz is an even bigger troll :\06:20
moofreei don't think #maemo wants to hear about our nonsense politics kthx06:20
DocScrutinizers/and and/and want/06:21
Sazpaimon_stop taking it so personally06:21
Sazpaimon_I'm sure the meego guys want to release an N950 for the masses06:21
Choomthat does not compute06:21
Sazpaimon_but they need to convince nokia that it's worth their money to run with meego in the long run06:22
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Choomthe people they should convince are the PR guys to make promises of continuity06:22
Sazpaimon_they've alredy out-PRed the N9 compared to the N90006:23
Choom(about the N9, of course, I don't care about anything similar to the N900)06:23
Sazpaimon_and it's only been a day06:23
moofreepr guy would just quit RIIIGHT before they cancel all those promises06:23
Sazpaimon_but like I said, you guys shouldnt take it so personally06:23
DocScrutinizerNokia has problems with producing N950 in volumes for sale06:23
SpeedEvilI wonder idly about how screen protectors work for curved screens06:24
ChoomI don't06:24
ChoomI'm quite excited about the N906:24
DocScrutinizerobviously they intended to sell it first, then N9. Otherwise it wouldn't be ready for use as a devel device for N906:24
Choomit's exactly what I wanted06:24
Sazpaimon_yeah the problem is they aren't convinced it's worth mass producing a device in an unpopular form factor with an OS that hasn't been tested in the mass market06:24
moofreechicken and egg problem06:24
Choomcomplete with a capacitive screen and a compass06:24
Sazpaimon_we don't know for sure *why* the N950 didn't get mass produced, but that's my theory06:25
moofreenokia doesn't want to risk its cancellation of meego06:25
moofree"It might succeed if we actually tried to make it succeed!"06:25
Sazpaimon_the N9 is nokia trying to make meego succeed06:25
moofreelol06:26
Sazpaimon_yes, it's not going to be popular with us06:26
Sazpaimon_but what about "the other billion"?06:26
moofreepretty sad if you ask me06:26
ChoomI've actually seen iphone users get aroused about the N9 today06:27
moofreeoh well, the M9 will be nice06:27
DocScrutinizerSazpaimon_: BS, didn't you listen? Nokia got problems with CE cert for N950, or sth. Also with production yield or similar06:27
moofree(microsoft n9 lol)06:27
Sazpaimon_DocScrutinizer, elaborate06:27
Sazpaimon_are you saying the N950 had a hardware issue?06:28
moofreeif it didn't pass electrical certifications, they wouldn't be able to send it out to developers06:28
DocScrutinizeryes06:28
Sazpaimon_well that doesn't really change my theory06:28
DocScrutinizermoofree: sure about that?06:28
Macerwas the n900 really popular in the US? :)06:29
Maceri wonder how many they sold here.06:29
moofreedepends on the country06:29
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moofreeand which electrical certifications it might have not passed or what have you06:29
moofreebut yeah, link to where you heard that06:29
Sazpaimon_they came to a crossroads during development: "Do we spend all our money fixing this device that may not be popular in the long run, or do we dedicate our time to a form factor that has a better chance of thriving in today's market?"06:29
ChoomI'm glad they chose the latter then06:30
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Choomif that's the case06:30
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moofreeyou act as if being a typical generic slab phone is a guarantee of success06:30
Sazpaimon_I'm not saying that06:30
Choomit surely increases the chances06:30
DocScrutinizeryou dunno nuttin about what really happened, could be everything from soldering problems in fab to "plotitcal" issues with some cert authorities. And there can be arbitrary number of ways dealing with this for a limited number of devices that don't need to earn money06:30
GeneralAntillesSuddenly got noisy in here.06:31
Choomas I said earlier, I've seen iphone users get excited about the N9 today06:31
Sazpaimon_I'm saying a slate phone has a much better opportunity to succed than a qwerty phone06:31
Sazpaimon_plain and simple06:31
Sazpaimon_it's a proven form factor that works06:31
Sazpaimon_and isn't that what we all want in the end? For meego to succeed?06:32
DocScrutinizerSazpaimon_: typically that's not how business works in hw manufacturing06:32
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Choomquite frankly, all I want in the end is a company that develops hardware that I like06:33
moofreeall i wanted was a keyboard06:33
Choomand nokia seems to be delivering as far as I'm concerned06:33
GeneralAntillesSazpaimon_, no, I want something I want to buy and own. :P06:33
DocScrutinizerSazpaimon_: you start to sound like a troll06:34
GeneralAntillesFor as much as Nokia loves shipping multiple device formfactors06:34
GeneralAntillesI wish they'd do it with some of their Linux offerings.06:34
moofreeGeneralAntilles: pretty much06:34
moofreethey have how many thousands of phones on the market?06:34
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: they'll eventually get their shit sorted with N95006:34
moofreen9 with keyboard would be nice :\06:34
GeneralAntillesHope so06:34
GeneralAntillesWish Elop hadn't stabbed MeeGo in the gut.06:35
DocScrutinizeryou don't think they developed that device just for 250 developers, do you?06:35
GeneralAntillesMan-with-no-arms06:35
moofreeassuming the n9 is a success, maybe there'll be a meego device i'll want to get in the future, but if it falls to LG or HTC to make a meego phone with a keyboard... i'm giving up hope on the platform in general06:36
Sazpaimon_GeneralAntilles, yeah with symbian, an OS they develop in house and they alreayd make returns on06:36
moofreedepends what intel does i guess :/06:36
Sazpaimon_right now I see the N9 as Nokia dipping their toes in the Meego waters06:37
Sazpaimon_if they like how it sells, they'll probably jump in06:37
anidel_the N9 will sell. As much as the N900 sold.06:37
moofreei just like how they're going to fragment their own marketplace06:38
moofreeyet again06:38
Choomthey need PR to promise continuity06:38
Choomotherwise it won't sell06:38
Sazpaimon_moofree, what, with WP7?06:38
DocScrutinizerOTOH there's that new policy which says there will be no more meego devices AIUI06:38
anidel_no one promised continuity on the N900. All they said was the there'll be another device after it06:38
Choomthe mass market depends on the availability of developers06:38
moofreeyeah between windows phone and meego (and whatever's left over from symbian)06:38
DocScrutinizeranidel_: incorrect06:38
Sazpaimon_symbian and meego apps can be ported to one another easily06:38
Sazpaimon_if they use qt06:39
anidel_DocScrutinizer: partially. It was always touted as 4 out of 506:39
DocScrutinizeranidel_: they said their future top notch smartphones all will have maemo/meego06:39
moofreewhat about qt on windows phone 7?06:39
Sazpaimon_not gonna happen06:39
anidel_DocScrutinizer: they didn't lie at that time. The change happened afterwards, though06:39
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DocScrutinizeranidel_: and that race 1 to 5 wasn't a race to grave06:39
moofreeyep06:39
ChoomDocScrutinizer: they did?06:39
moofreenot happening.06:39
DocScrutinizerChoom: sure06:40
Choomoh you mean before wp706:40
DocScrutinizeryes, obviously06:40
anidel_I knew it was a test to find an alternative to Symbian. I knew it would succeed and it did. I didn't know Elop would come along06:41
ChoomI never expected the N900 to succeed06:42
Triztwe need a hit man to take elop out06:42
Choomand neither were the reviewers back when it was launched06:42
Sazpaimon_neither did nokia06:42
moofreeTrizt: that's illegal!06:42
Triztmoofree; it's the microsoft way ;)06:43
Choomthe N900 launched with a specific niche in mind06:43
Sazpaimon_almost 2500 comments on the N9 hands on posting on engadget06:43
ChoomI don't think they were testing the waters for anything06:43
anidel_The path to WP7 has been chosen . At least they didn't kill MeeGo..they just want to see how it'll be accepted..hopefully if it sells, Nokia may reconsider (in the long term though)06:43
DocScrutinizeryeah, nokia got taken by surprise when N900 sales went thru the roof06:43
ChoomI do, however, believe that the N9 is testing the waters06:44
Sazpaimon_see, I'm not alone here06:44
Choombut they need to work with PR as well in order to make developers believe that there is continuity after all06:44
Sazpaimon_most popular comment on the N9 posting on engadget: "Kinda makes you wonder why Nokia needs WP7...."06:44
Sazpaimon_+54206:44
Sazpaimon_one of the next most popular, with +143:06:45
Sazpaimon_"(    .    ) (    .    ) These"06:45
Sazpaimon_yes06:45
anidel_Nokia needed WP7, to me, because developers will develop for it. That's for sure. Not that much for MeeGo. At least from their point of view06:45
Choomthey need to make developers at least believe that, if the phone is a success, more will come06:45
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DocScrutinizerthey kicked devels' balls once too often06:47
DocScrutinizera thing straight from that friggin mega deja-vu with OM06:48
anidel_I think developers on all platforms got balls kicked once too often...06:48
anidel_iOS, Android, Windows etc...06:48
DocScrutinizerI bet SpeedEvil could contribute some more elaborated comments on it06:49
Triztanidel_; just add mono and you have those two developers who would developers for wp7 developing for which ever platform06:49
DocScrutinizerTrizt: X-D indeed06:49
DocScrutinizermaemo got mono AFAIK ;-P06:50
* SpeedEvil quacks.06:50
Triztsomething that would give a better boost would to have alien dalvik preinstalled on the n906:51
SpeedEvilSazpaimon_: Dual control sticks! :)06:51
* SpeedEvil wonders if alien dalvik could ever have android market.06:51
DocScrutinizerTrizt: yup06:51
Sazpaimon_SpeedEvil, is the market a dalvik app?06:55
Sazpaimon_alien dalvik is just dalvik vm ported to a different linker06:55
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Sazpaimon_im sure someone dedicatd enough could do the same thig06:56
Sazpaimon_*thing06:56
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SpeedEvilI don't mean a hack.06:57
SpeedEvilI mean an actual official market app.06:57
Sazpaimon_so do I06:58
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Sazpaimon_if the market app is a dalvik executable program,it should work06:58
Sazpaimon_it also doesn't really matter in the end because myriad is apparently only marketing alien dalvik to OEMs07:00
Sazpaimon_and OEMs aren't biting07:00
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Choomhow lucrative is the android market?07:01
Choomdo people actually buy stuff for android?07:01
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Triztseems like those I know with androids do buy07:02
Sazpaimon_most handsets use their carrier to pay for programs through the market07:02
Sazpaimon_like if you have a nokia E71x on AT&T, you can buy stuff off the ovi store and it'll charge your AT&T account07:03
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ChoomI have this feeling (and I hope to be alone here) that the linux community does not care much about profit07:04
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ChoomI mean I can easily see myself developing for profit for the wp7 / ios, but not for a linux device07:05
Sazpaimon_Choom, people seem to have the incorrect opinion that if you work with linux you should not expect profit07:05
Sazpaimon_and that you're working for the linux "community"07:05
SpeedEvilSpeakin gpersonally, I'm quite happy buying stuff for linux.07:05
Sazpaimon_not for "everyone else"07:05
SpeedEvilI bought angry birds level pack.07:06
Triztlook at the price of some of the apps in ovi for n900, gives a feeling that some people do hope for profit for something not that usable07:06
SpeedEvilI want to buy more angry birds levle.s07:06
Choomand if this is a common feeling it's also quite distructive to marketplaces, because the profit is shared07:06
Choomyes but then when one looks at the maemo repos, they're full of free apps07:08
Choomsome of which would most likely sell a lot on apple's app store07:08
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Choomthis in turn drives the devs who wish to work for profit away from the platform, because the users end up expecting everything for free07:10
SpeedEvilTrue.07:11
SpeedEvilAnd regrettable to an extent.07:11
TriztChoom; yeah, there are many good ones that people on android/apple would buy for top dollars, but it's the same for the desktop computers too but that don't make people to use linux (while on a phone it works as they don't know)07:11
Sazpaimon_http://media.tinhte.vn/photo/var/resizes/sonlazio/DSC_2201_095.jpg?m=130868411307:11
Sazpaimon_updates? on my nokia?07:11
ChoomLOL07:12
ChoomI want a purple / violet N907:13
TriztI want an n950 with the same specs as N907:14
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* SpeedEvil notes that that would be a n9.07:14
Choomshey should have round corners too07:14
Sazpaimon_Trizt, N950 does have the same specs as the N907:14
Sazpaimon_well, almost the same07:14
Triztokey n9 with slide out keyboard07:15
Sazpaimon_it has all the important specs07:15
Sazpaimon_same soc07:15
Choomyou can have an on-screen keyboard07:15
Choomlive with that :P07:15
TriztSazpaimon_; no nfc, not the same screen07:15
Sazpaimon_it's free07:15
Sazpaimon_deal with it07:15
TriztChoom; it's not as good as a real one07:15
Sazpaimon_deal w/ it07:16
Triztask any iphone user who writes a lot07:16
Choomwhether they'd trade their thin iphones for something thicket with a physical keyboard?07:16
Sazpaimon_iphone users dont have swype07:16
Choomthey'd hate it07:16
* Trizt likes to complain07:16
Sazpaimon_N9 will have swype07:16
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Trizttimew to get to work07:16
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Sazpaimon_i dont see why people cant just use a bluetooth keyboard on their N907:17
Choomswipe isn't that exciting to me, actually07:17
* SpeedEvil likes hw keyboard.07:17
SpeedEvilI can use my n900 with eyes closed, with hwkbd07:17
Sazpaimon_if the N9 is popular, the chinese will probably make an N9 case with a sliding keyboard07:17
SpeedEvilOr when paying attention to other stuff07:17
strohhalmi would like to have an 950 :\07:17
Sazpaimon_strohhalm, learn to develop07:18
Sazpaimon_or register an LLC07:18
Sazpaimon_it costs like $5007:18
Sazpaimon_make a fake company LLC and register it with nokia as a developer account07:18
Sazpaimon_make up some fake project you're working on07:18
Sazpaimon_request an N95007:18
Sazpaimon_done07:18
* DocScrutinizer wonders if Choom is way to much basing his notions about general situation on his own PoV and attitude07:18
ChoomI don't even like N900's physical keyboard much07:19
Sazpaimon_I love the N900's keyboard07:19
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strohhalmSazpaimon_: nice idea07:19
Sazpaimon_i know I'llmiss it in the N907:19
Sazpaimon_epecially with IRC07:19
Sazpaimon_but I'll live07:19
Choomfor example, there's no blue shift key on the right side of the keyboard07:19
ChoomI don't even know where Esc is on the N90007:20
Sazpaimon_the N950's keyboard is a vast improvement over the N90007:20
Choomfortunately, the terminal app has a virtual Esc key07:20
Sazpaimon_strohhalm, no reason why it wouldn't work07:20
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Sazpaimon_then sell the N950 on ebay, make a few grand07:20
Sazpaimon_tell nokia one of your employees brought their kid in to work and stuck it in the blender07:21
strohhalmi don't disargree07:21
Sazpaimon_if you want an N950 that bad I suggest you do that07:21
Choomor just buy a bt keyboard and be happy with that07:22
DocScrutinizerChoom: I honestly can't see why you are here and seems own a N900 - you don't like N900 to have hw kbd, you don't appreciate the FOSS concept (otherwise you'd not argue it's a bad thing to have many free apps)... .oO(???)07:22
ChoomDocScrutinizer: I do actually appreciate the FOSS concept07:22
ChoomDocScrutinizer: however, it's not good for a market place07:23
strohhalmfoss must be something really tasty, soo much peaple like this O_o07:23
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Sazpaimon_the free in FOSS doesnt mean free as in free beer07:23
Sazpaimon_it's free as in freedom07:23
strohhalm;)07:23
ChoomDocScrutinizer: and while the N900 has negative aspects, there's currently no competition for it, as far as I'm concerned07:23
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Sazpaimon_meaning I have the freedom to profit off of my work07:23
ChoomDocScrutinizer: however I can't hide the fact that I'm pretty excited about the N907:24
Sazpaimon_and you have the freedom to share your work for free07:24
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pabs3Choom: I'm happy to take the N900 off your hands if you no longer want it :)07:24
Choombecause, to me, it merges what I like about the N900 with what I envy from the iphone07:24
Sazpaimon_also its worth mentioning that Nokia's stock went up marginally since the N9 was announced07:25
Sazpaimon_like, 20 cents07:25
Choompabs3: once the N9 comes out I'll be more than happy to sell it to one of you cheap07:25
Sazpaimon_http://247wallst.com/2011/06/21/nokia-launches-windows-phone-into-smartphone-storms-with-aid-from-microsoft/07:26
Sazpaimon_wow07:26
Sazpaimon_this article is so wrong07:26
Sazpaimon_apparently the N9 is a windows phone?!07:26
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Choompabs3: that's assuming the N9 can actually deliver, otherwise I'll just default to the iphone 5 which should be out at that point07:27
verbuying an n9 will be like buying an amiga.07:27
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verand yes, they still make amigas, heh.07:27
Sazpaimon_ver, amigas have a hardware keyboard07:28
ChoomROFL07:28
verthey don't come with a keyboard07:28
Choombut they lack a capacitive touchscreen07:28
Choomwhich, to me, is a lot more important07:28
ChoomAnd a compass!07:28
veryeah i'm all about the 95007:28
Sazpaimon_yeah amiga's virtual keyboard blows07:29
verterrible business move for nokia, but very cool toy.07:29
Sazpaimon_i fail to see the comparison07:29
Sazpaimon_where's the ovi maps on my amiga07:29
verbecause nobody uses amiga07:29
verand nobody will be using meego07:29
ChoomI certainly will07:29
Sazpaimon_we'll see07:29
Sazpaimon_the market will respond07:30
ChoomI have this stupid dream of modifying duke nukem 3d to work with the accelerometer and a compass07:30
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Choomfor awesome, 90s-style, virtual reality07:31
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opdf2what's the estimated price for ebay n950? $1500?07:32
ChoomI've also been playing with the qt SDK and am loving the experience, unlike scratchbox..07:33
pabs3opdf2: a visit from the police?07:33
Sazpaimon_I think you could sell it for at least that07:33
Sazpaimon_yes because its totally illegal to break nokia's NDA07:33
Sazpaimon_you'll get a visit from their lawyers07:33
Sazpaimon_not the cops07:33
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Stskeepsthose people are perfectly capable of breaking your legs07:34
Stskeeps:P07:34
opdf2too bad.. not that I would buy.. just wanna see the gobs of money people would pay for that thing07:34
Sazpaimon_just saying07:34
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Sazpaimon_pay $50 for an LLC, get an N950 through their developer program, make a new ebay account, sell the N95007:35
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opdf2looks great though07:36
opdf2http://twitpic.com/5eslhw07:36
Sazpaimon_that little tab next to the A07:37
Sazpaimon_what is that07:37
Sazpaimon_is that supposed to be there the N9 text was supposd to be?07:37
Sazpaimon_also i hope they release a firmware update soon that lets you use portrait app launcher07:38
Sazpaimon_the fact that it doesnt do portrait when the keyboard is out is a little silly07:38
Macerdamn that n950 is pretty07:38
MacerSazpaimon_: considering the n900 be happy it does portrait at all :)07:38
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opdf2i havent seen a qwerty phone that good in awhile07:39
Sazpaimon_opdf2, you haven't seen the E7?07:39
opdf2yeah that is good07:39
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opdf2not enough great looking qwerty phones...boo07:39
Sazpaimon_i personally would miss the convex screen on an N95007:39
Sazpaimon_the N9's screen just seems more natural07:40
Sazpaimon_especially when using jestures07:40
Sazpaimon_*gestures07:40
Sazpaimon_damn it's late07:40
Sazpaimon_i really hope i dont need to wait weeks for nokia to approve my developer application07:41
Choomdon't think I've ever tried a convex screen07:41
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ChoomI hope it works better for drag/drop than iphone's07:43
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ShadowJK$1500 would be worth it, if it came with warranty :)08:18
Choomwarranty not to be sued08:19
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ShadowJKwarranty that they'll resolder it when usb ports and components fall off the circuit board08:21
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DocScrutinizerpretty? HAH! you'll get THAT: http://thenokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/nokia_n950_1.jpg for N950, actually08:23
Macerhahaha08:24
Maceri'll still take it just for the qwerty08:24
DocScrutinizerhttp://thenokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/nokia_n950_slide.jpg08:24
Macerwow that is one fatass dude using it08:25
dm8tbrhehe, it was kinda funny to see pictures with the uglifier plastic on08:25
DocScrutinizerhttp://thenokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/nokia_n950_side.jpg08:25
DocScrutinizerthis might be the actual case, not any "uglifier plastic on"08:25
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DocScrutinizertooling for case it expensive08:26
MacerDocScrutinizer: well. i hope they make enough for the masses08:26
Macer:/08:26
DocScrutinizernot of that version for sure08:26
Macerwell.. any version08:26
Maceri don't want a non qwerty n908:26
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DocScrutinizerMacer: Nokia hasn't developed this N950 just to give out 250 to community developers - you bet they *want* to sell bilions of it08:27
Macerthey can sell at least a few thousands08:28
DocScrutinizerthey just need to find a way it actually can get sold and earns money, and for sure they will happily sell to anybody08:28
Macerthey will probably mass produce them after people have all bought the n9 haha08:28
DocScrutinizerthey for sure don't delay MP for concerns of canibalizing N908:29
Macercanibalizing! hahaha08:29
DocScrutinizerthe devices are too different for user profile, yet way too similar in technology08:29
Macerthere also is the possibility that the n900 meego team might get everything working :)08:30
DocScrutinizer(canibalizing) sorry for my marketing diction08:30
Macerthat would be nice too although the n950's better hardware would be nice to use08:30
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DocScrutinizern950 has worse hw than N908:31
DocScrutinizerway 'worse'08:31
Macerbut better hw than n90008:31
Macerpfft. the qwerty makes up for it lol08:31
DocScrutinizera bit, yeah08:31
pabs3so anyone planning on reverse engineering things like the SGX OpenGL ES drivers?08:31
Macer1GHz omap and 1GB physical ram?08:31
DocScrutinizer512MB RAM08:31
Maceri would put the 3x more ram in the more than a bit category08:32
Maceroh08:32
Macer2x :)08:32
Macerand a 40% bump in cpu clock speed08:32
Choomthat's on the n95008:32
DocScrutinizerTFT LCD instead AMOLED08:32
Choomyou're on different tunes08:32
wmaronepabs3: hasn't happened in ~3 years, probably won't08:33
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.developer.nokia.com/dp?uri=http://sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes  N950 specs08:33
Choompabs3: too much trouble with little return potential08:33
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Stskeepspabs3: everyone who gets near that code goes blind08:34
pabs3wmarone: seems like some part of that was done, see the end of http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:PowerVR_drivers08:34
Maceris polycarbonate just a scientific way of saying plastic? :)08:34
pabs3wut, why is ruby1.8 non-free?? http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/non-free/r/ruby1.8/08:35
pabs3and swig and speex and libogg and libjpeg08:35
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SpeedEvilMacer: Polycarbonate is a sort of plastic.08:36
DocScrutinizerstrange enough they don't mention the 512MB RAM on N95008:36
Macerbt 4.0 vs bt 2.1EDR08:36
KaadlajkDocScrutinizer: that is because it does not have 51208:36
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DocScrutinizersome developer.nokia.com webpages said so IIRC08:36
SpeedEvilMacer: It's used in bullet resistant glazing.08:37
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DocScrutinizerpabs3: our speculations were about direct hw accelerations using DSP/GFX08:38
DocScrutinizerNB N9 claims 50h of continuous music playback08:38
pabs3in ruby? understandable for speex/jpeg/ogg though08:38
Macer* Chinese input method is not supported in this Beta release08:38
Macerhaha.. good! keep the chinese out!08:38
pabs3...08:39
DocScrutinizerKaadlajk: well, internet tells me you *should* know better about RAM in N950 :-D08:40
DocScrutinizerso I'll update my wetware records about that factoid08:40
DocScrutinizerthanks08:41
ruskieso anything new?08:42
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* DocScrutinizer for a moment mixed up digia with digium08:44
Choomare there any flash images of the N950 available yet?08:44
DocScrutinizerand went "wut???"08:44
DocScrutinizerChoom: yes08:45
DocScrutinizerChoom: check yesterday's chanlog08:45
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DocScrutinizerpabs3: really short of a good story about why ruby is non-free. BSD licence or sth?08:48
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pabs3DocScrutinizer: in Debian it is in main, license looks like GPL | custom-license08:50
DocScrutinizerNFC08:51
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DocScrutinizerisn't there some sort of rationale in a README somewhere up-path non-free?08:52
DocScrutinizeryou'd think Nokia would like to explain why this isn't a GPL violation08:52
pabs3I looked at libjpeg and there wasn't any explanation why it was in non-free08:53
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pabs3didn't look at the others yet08:53
pabs3perhaps I should mail the folks listed in the changelog.Debian.gz :)08:53
Stskeepslibjpeg optimizations are oss'ed to libjpeg-turbo, afaik08:53
DocScrutinizerI guess my freind Harald Welte has Nokia under close scrutination since quite some time, and they know about that08:53
DocScrutinizermoo sts08:54
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Stskeepsmoo08:54
Stskeepswhy ruby is non-free, i have no idea why :)08:55
Stskeepsmaybe it used to be like that when they grabbed it08:55
Stskeepsin debian sections08:55
pabs3weird, so they sent their changes to libjpeg-turbo but aren't using libjpeg-turbo?08:55
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* DocScrutinizer shrugs08:55
DocScrutinizernot my domain really08:55
DocScrutinizerI'm EE, in my world SW devels are always vlose to pathological weird08:56
DocScrutinizer;-D08:56
pabs3:)08:56
* pabs3 considers applying for the N950 dev program with "I want to find GPL violations in Nokia's devices", that would be a fun troll08:57
SpeedEvil:)08:58
DocScrutinizerlol08:58
SpeedEvil'Researching possible violations of patents held  by Apple'08:58
ds3wonder if Nokia can be convinced to opensource the N900's HW as a dying gasp action08:58
DocScrutinizerreminds me on that awesome tmo thread, where they suggested to convince Nokia to disclose bits by accusing them of GPL violations :-P08:59
pabs3got a link? sounds hilarious08:59
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DocScrutinizernah, I rarely keep such links08:59
DocScrutinizerrecent thread, with lots of abill_uk, and I think also Stskeeps, subject along the line "Nokia please disclose closed bits! NOW, REALLY!"09:00
DocScrutinizerprobably closed meanwhile, by texrat09:01
DocScrutinizerbeen the running gag and WTF-LOL of the week here in IRC09:02
DocScrutinizerStskeeps should still remember, I think it's been the last nail to the coffin he put tmo in09:03
pabs3probably this? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7341909:03
DocScrutinizeryup09:04
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DocScrutinizerclosed by chemist :-)09:09
DocScrutinizerumm, did I notice konttori around?09:10
DocScrutinizer~seen konttori_home09:10
infobotkonttori_home <~konttori@80-186-91-32.elisa-mobile.fi> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 8h 45m 27s ago, saying: 'night now all'.09:10
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DocScrutinizer** konttori_home has joined #maemo  07:3809:12
DocScrutinizerinfobot: useless09:12
* infobot starts crying and hides from docscrutinizer in the darkest corner of the room. :(09:12
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DocScrutinizer~botsnack09:15
infobotDocScrutinizer: aw, gee09:15
DocScrutinizer~lart timriker09:15
* infobot accelerates a free AOL cd to 50,000 rpm and lets timriker feel it09:15
DocScrutinizer~seen ^24seven09:16
infobot^24seven is currently on #maemo, last said: 'yup :P'.09:16
DocScrutinizererr09:16
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* DocScrutinizer <<-- idiot09:16
DocScrutinizer~seen divan09:18
infobotdivan <~divan@89.209.253.77> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 7h 49m 45s ago, saying: 'Aranel, 'required hacks' is ok for us :)'.09:18
DocScrutinizerseen == posted sth - for her, humm09:18
DocScrutinizer~seen cyborg-one09:19
infobotDocScrutinizer: i haven't seen 'cyborg-one'09:19
DocScrutinizerthought as much09:19
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DocScrutinizer@N950-owners: as soon as NDA gets moot, I'd appreciate a pastebin of >>lsof|grep bme09:22
krayonDocScrutinizer: I've noticed that with a lot of IRC bots... I wonder why :/  The only thing I can think is if they are /away and they split/rejoin or something like that, you don't want the join msg triggering events as a "seen".09:24
DocScrutinizeranybody knows if there are N950 available on developer.nokia.com remote device access program?09:24
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: i'd be surprised to see a NDA09:26
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DocScrutinizerwell, those who have a N950 now are reluctant to post anything resulting from any cmd on that device/OS yet. I can accept that, and wouldn't expect anything else, unless somebody really feels confident with what's ok and what's not regarding this09:27
DocScrutinizersee achipa's reaction yesterday when I asked for pastebin of a bootlog09:28
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: well, that's because they're on protos which are probably earlier than what developers get09:28
DocScrutinizer:shrug:09:28
DocScrutinizerwouldn't hurt, and if it did then it hurts me, not them ;-)09:29
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DocScrutinizeror did I miss the point?09:29
Stskeepskinda09:29
pabs3DocScrutinizer: looks like only N900 on http://apu.ndhub.net/devices09:30
DocScrutinizerwell, probably my "when NDA gets moot" was a bit too brash once more09:30
SpeedEvilI'd be astonished if those with hw weren't asked to sign _some_ sort of NDA.09:31
DocScrutinizerI meant to say "whenever you start to feel like it was opportune"09:31
StskeepsSpeedEvil: well, if it's the developer device programme, then i would guess not09:31
StskeepsSpeedEvil: i mean, in amsterdam it was just a loan agreement09:31
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DocScrutinizeryou actually even acknowledge some NDA when applying for developers.nokia.com09:31
SpeedEvilStskeeps: Oh - not for those09:32
SpeedEvilStskeeps: At that point the device was known about.09:32
SpeedEvilI mean the people who have had the n950/n9 for some time09:32
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DocScrutinizerfor sure had reason to keep the fact unpublished09:33
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DocScrutinizerand achipa said "let's wait until the devel devs ship - rules are rules" OWTTE09:34
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DocScrutinizerhe even never admitted he actually has a N9(50)09:34
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DocScrutinizerjust to the extent of "let's assume I might have one"09:34
DocScrutinizerI bet he doesn't do that to give him a mystery look09:35
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DocScrutinizerI know of other N9/50 owners that never even mentioned that little hint about the fact they did09:37
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loft306yeah they kept it hush hush09:39
DocScrutinizerin OM the guidelines about what might go public and what must not were absolutely cryptic, and even changed frequently. I expect the situation to be similar on all companies09:39
DocScrutinizerrefer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect09:40
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loft306heh and nokia is creat at the vaporware part of it09:46
loft306*great09:46
loft306atleast they didnt give a date this time09:47
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TriztN900looked at the photos of the new devices from Prauge, the n95p dont seem to be much thicker than the n909:54
DocScrutinizerthe main mantra at OM always been "Don't talk about properties of future products, not even you know if the product spec will stay as they are now, until rollout"09:54
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pabs3DocScrutinizer: OM?09:55
DocScrutinizer~ DocScrutinizer5109:55
DocScrutinizer~ DocScrutinizer09:55
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko09:55
pabs3oh right09:55
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dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: and that's how it went, everyone thought the N950 would come out as the n9 and then it didn't...09:56
DocScrutinizeryup09:56
Corsacwell, they had a bunch of them in the closet so instead of thrashing them they offer them as developer program09:57
DocScrutinizerprobably close to the truth :-)09:57
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loft306almost bought  an OM  back then09:59
jacekowskiand there is working turn by turn navigation in n910:01
pabs3DocScrutinizer: you still working there? last I saw they were making a device running Windows10:01
jacekowskicool10:01
DocScrutinizerpabs3: OM is basically out of business and dead10:01
pabs3DocScrutinizer: oh :( did you move on to Qi Hardware then?10:02
DocScrutinizerpabs3: I never seen any windows devices from them though. Maybe you refer to that "TV"10:02
pabs3DocScrutinizer: I refer to frm.fm10:02
DocScrutinizerpabs3: Qi is a non-profit company for now10:02
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DocScrutinizerNFC how they make a living, but for sure not with working for Qi10:03
DocScrutinizeraka sharism10:03
jacekowskiwell, trolltech made money on Qt10:03
DocScrutinizerI'm loosely associated to them still10:03
jacekowskiso i don't see a problem there10:03
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: ?10:07
loft306pabs3 framed is cool10:07
pabs3loft306: agreed, shame about the OS tho :)10:07
loft306?10:08
loft306winders?10:08
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loft306this makus he want to hack one together10:09
loft306geez10:09
loft306*makes me10:09
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pabs3loft306: Windows 7, yeah10:10
DocScrutinizer*burrp*10:10
DocScrutinizeranyway openmoko.com is NOT openmoko.org10:11
* loft306 looks at his nv running linux that he couldnt get lg to send the source for 10:11
loft306*tv10:11
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DocScrutinizerhow do you know it's linux?10:12
loft306therle is a paragraph in the manual on how to get the linux source for it10:13
DocScrutinizeroooh10:13
* DocScrutinizer digs for the manual of his LG3210:13
loft306but i hear tha t they dont send the complete source if they send anything... they send just the bits they added  and let you figure out where they go... but like i said i didnt get anything so i cant confirm10:14
* DocScrutinizer considers unpacking/dissecting the firmware update blob.bin he got for LG3210:15
loft306hehehe10:15
pabs3loft306: sic the SFLC or gpl-violations.org onto them10:16
DocScrutinizeraka Harald Welte10:16
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DocScrutinizer(btw co-founder of OM, just if you didn't know)10:16
pabs3(also extremely awesome)10:17
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loft306awww geez10:17
loft306small world10:18
* DocScrutinizer yawns while sigterm'ing a ns-plugin-viewer eating 50% aka 1 core of laptop's CPU since hours10:20
loft306i gotso many toys tere that i can find nso time to play with any of them10:21
loft306*no10:21
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loft306my pillows calling  nn10:29
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RST38hhttp://felipec.wordpress.com/2011/06/21/my-disagreement-with-elop-on-meego/10:31
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KhertanMorning11:03
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Khertanhttp://wiki.meego.com/Documentation_for_pyside-assistant11:09
Khertanoups11:09
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meceNice: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1035259&postcount=37011:12
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cloudyLightsKhertan: hi there11:19
Corsacharmattan page on nokia developper wiki are painful to read11:19
cloudyLightsKhertan: I now use this: https://code.google.com/p/switch-profile-by-meeting/source/browse/trunk/src/makeSwitch.py11:20
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cloudyLightsdoes anyone know a nice tool to read xml?11:29
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RST38hlibxml?11:30
Corsaccat ?11:30
ruskiethere are some perl tools for it11:32
ruskiexml-twig11:32
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krayoncloudyLights: xsltproc11:40
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MohammadAGQtXml11:42
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DocScrutinizerXMLMaker - just kidding11:56
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* haj loves the right click -> reinstall function in Parallels Virtual Automation ... 11:59
hajfor windows servers... ;)11:59
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jhbdoes the cssu update touch anything of my boot setup?12:21
ruskieif it updates the relevant packages yes12:22
ruskiebut that depends on the update12:22
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jhbruskie: I am not using cssu so far, and have mb (I know). I wouldn't like the to get into a state where I can't use backupmenu to switch back12:23
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meceLooking at the N9, I want more icons in the quick launch. 8 icons would be perfect.12:33
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Termanagood morning12:37
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meceTermana, \o12:40
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KhertancloudyLights: hi !12:44
KhertancloudyLights: the future way to package python apps : http://wiki.meego.com/Documentation_for_pyside-assistant12:44
X-FadeKhertan: rpm and deb support?12:47
KhertanX-Fade: as it s a distutils extension, Distutils can build rpm too12:48
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X-FadeKhertan: Well the only thing you need to create is .dsc debian.tar.gz and spec.12:49
KhertanX-Fade: i was using sdist_maemo ... so i use the same distutils script to build rpm and deb12:49
KhertanX-Fade: yep but this way using distutils you can also build .exe, register to pypi12:50
Khertanit s the standard python tools to build python package12:50
Khertanand so one packaging tool for all12:50
Khertanhttp://khertan.net/python_sdist_maemo12:50
X-FadeKhertan: Yes, but make sure that it creates source packages too. As the only way for people to actually publish their app is by providing the source package.12:51
X-FadeNo binary distribution.12:51
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KhertanX-Fade: yep ... i didn't know well how pyside-assistant works ... but if it didn't build source packages ... i ll probably add this option to it, or continue sdist_maemo development12:52
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X-FadeKhertan: It would rock if you can just package your app, so that you can submit it to an obs for instance.12:53
KhertanX-Fade: i'm working on it :)12:53
KhertanX-Fade: at least for creating debian package it s already working for obs12:54
X-FadeAnd if you have deb and rpm at the same time, then people can develop for meego and harmattan at the same time.12:54
KhertanX-Fade: now ... rpm at the same time will be better12:54
KhertanX-Fade: this is my goal  :)12:54
X-FadeKhertan: good :D12:54
* Khertan before Maemo didn't know anything about packaging. It s amazing that now i'm creating tool to help user to build package12:55
* Khertan thanks a lot X-Fade for his patience :)12:55
KhertanX-Fade: about distributing app for harmattan does there is documentation about it ?12:56
Khertanaddition in the packages information, section ?12:57
X-FadeKhertan: No, not yet. I'm working on the OBS target for Harmattan atm.12:57
KhertanX-Fade: obs too ... huM ... really good :)12:57
X-FadeYes, at meego community obs.12:58
ruskiehttp://allthingsd.com/20110621/meet-the-stealthy-start-up-that-aims-to-sharpen-focus-of-entire-camera-industry/12:59
KhertanX-Fade: could you remember me the url ? it s not in the wiki : http://wiki.meego.com/Build_Infrastructure/Community_Builder12:59
Khertan:)12:59
kerioso... apparently meego is all kinds of shiny13:00
keriowhy the hell is nokia not going to use it for nerdphones13:00
X-Fadehttps://build.pub.meego.com/13:00
Khertanthx13:00
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JaffaKhertan: Can you add a nice prominent link? The ([1]) is a bit subtle13:03
Khertanlink added in the wiki13:03
KhertanJaffa: yep13:03
Khertanlook at the last minor edit :)13:03
Khertanalready done13:03
* Khertan didn't click on the preview button <---- it s a shame13:03
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Khertanouch ... didn't remember password13:08
X-FadeKhertan: meego.com account13:08
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KhertanX-Fade: oh ... indeed ... this explain what it wasn't the same password than before13:09
Khertanthx13:09
Khertan:)13:09
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JaffaAttitude running in the Harmattan Qt SDK http://bleb.org/software/maemo/harmattan-attitude-sdk.png13:14
chem|stmece: looking at the N9 I want another phone...13:14
Khertanchem|st: yep i want an n950 :)13:15
nid0personally i'd like a properly commercially available n950 with the n9's spec :<13:15
Khertannid0: an n9 with a keyboard so :)13:16
nid0indeed.13:16
KhertanJaffa: did you have time to try what Khweeteur look like in the sdk ?13:17
KhertanJaffa: https://gitorious.org/khweeteur13:17
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Khertanmy sdk install failed and break my debian :(13:17
KMFDMi think almost every n900 user would prefer an n950 that was commercially available with n9's spec. the phone was originally going to launch nokia's new platform thus needed to be more 'consumer friendly' which they think means no keyboards13:17
JaffaKhertan: No. I've managed to get three apps running: two of them already pre-installed and my own QML app13:17
Khertannot the fault of the sdk ... / full :)13:18
KhertanJaffa: no prob :)13:18
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meceI really want both N9 and N950. Want N950 for hacking and coding and N9 because it's shiny and have sexy screen and nfc...13:27
AppiahI want evertyhing13:28
mecebut yeah KMFDM, N900 users probly would rather have N950, if it were commercial.13:28
Appiahso people will think I'm cool13:28
meceAppiah, it's also cool to not have something. NOT having an android or iOS device is cool :)13:28
Appiah:D13:28
nid0my fingers are just crossed that nokia puts out an updated commercial n950 replacement at some point :<13:30
nid0e9 maybe?13:30
mecenid0, who knows what the future brings. I really hope the N9 is a commercial success.13:30
meceat least it's getting great press13:31
mecebetter than any nok phone in years!13:31
cehtehn9 is a dead horse13:31
cehtehbeautiful dead horse :P13:31
cehtehall hail to elop13:31
DocScrutinizermece: sometimes I have NFC myself ;-P13:33
Corsachmhm, anyone knows what HS means in nokia devices context?13:33
nid0its a dead horse that can be revived very quickly though. right from the outset, the spending examples elop presented showed nokia's going to continue investing in meego development, all it takes is one statement from him clearing that up saying "yes we are committing to future meego development and devices" and suddenly the horse is very much alive again13:33
meceCorsac, Helsingin Sanomat?13:33
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Corsac?13:33
StskeepsCorsac: High Security?13:33
nid0and my fingers are just crossed that he'll do that on the back of very positive reactions to the n913:33
CorsacStskeeps: might be, but what does it corresponds to?13:34
StskeepsCorsac: omap13:34
DocScrutinizernid0: indeed13:34
DocScrutinizer(elop)13:34
meceDocScrutinizer, nid0, that would make ballmer shit a brick :D13:35
DocScrutinizerand is the reason why this won't ever happen13:35
CorsacStskeeps: that's stil a bit scarse, it's definitely related to omap security extensions and trustzone, but what are hs devices?13:35
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StskeepsCorsac: signed bootloader and that kind of stuff13:35
StskeepsCorsac: n900 is a omap3 hs device stuff13:35
DocScrutinizeraegis13:36
DocScrutinizerBS13:36
nid0I dont really see why, all other wp7 hardware partners use two smartphone os's, and microsoft are fully awake these days to the idea that other solutions exist13:36
* DocScrutinizer pukes13:36
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.slideshare.net/peterschneider/maemo-6-platform-security13:36
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* mece hands DocScrutinizer a glass of water13:37
CorsacDocScrutinizer: please stop with fud13:37
DocScrutinizerme??? FUD? proof needed13:37
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Corsacyou don't seem to have any idea what you're talking about, as you keep pasting maemo security slides13:38
DocScrutinizerCorsac: just watch and read and *understand* those simple slides at URL I posted13:38
CorsacDocScrutinizer: I read them (and commented on the wiki page) since they're out13:38
DocScrutinizeruhuh, so they found a way to even better assrape users?13:38
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mecehttp://twitter.com/kypeli/status/8327561577981542413:39
mecehttp://twitter.com/vivainio/status/8327616832484147313:39
CorsacDocScrutinizer: you just fail to understand what integrity protection is13:39
Corsacand you just FUD, you run screaming “DRM” and that's all13:39
DocScrutinizeryou just fail to see how they trick you13:39
KhertanX-Fade: distutils bdist_rpm can be use to generate specs file, so no need other tools ;)13:40
CorsacDocScrutinizer: well, at least I'm reading the source code in order to really understand what is really going on there13:40
DocScrutinizerpfff13:40
CorsacDocScrutinizer: instead of repeatedly pasting the same pdf over and over13:40
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Corsacas if it would explain anything13:41
DocScrutinizerif you got the concept, you read sourcecode only to find the flaws in imlementation13:41
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Corsacok, I stop arguing13:41
DocScrutinizerthe concept is: no secure app will run in a tainted environment. No unsigned app may run in a clean "secure" environment13:42
DocScrutinizeras you alsways got some secure apps you don't want to miss, your option to go "open" is mere hypothetical13:43
DocScrutinizerfurthermore you need a reboot to clean a tainted hardware13:43
DocScrutinizermeans: start strace ->platform enters "open" mode and is marked tainted -> all signed apps get cleaned out of mem completely. You have a device without dialer, mediaplayer, whatnot, to Nokia's sole discretion of which apps they like to sign13:45
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DocScrutinizerreboot to revert to "normal" (whatever the meaning of "mormal" here)13:45
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DocScrutinizerthese are system immanent security requirements for such a concept of "integrity", and no reading the sourcecode will change anything, as best you can get is they failed at implementation, which would render the whole cruft useless13:50
DocScrutinizernow that's FUD I like13:51
DocScrutinizer;-D13:51
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DocScrutinizerwhat's your FUD? "I read the source..."?13:51
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meceDocScrutinizer regarding the security bits: me: http://twitter.com/mece66/status/83484485680762880 Ville's answer: http://twitter.com/vivainio/status/8348747190357606414:02
DocScrutinizermeh14:02
DocScrutinizerI did it again, clicked a twitter URL :-(14:03
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DocScrutinizeralways blank page after loading 99 pictures14:03
DocScrutinizersorry, I'll have to add twitter.com 0.0.0.0 >>/etc/hosts14:04
DocScrutinizeruntil they consider to fix their broken website shit14:04
DocScrutinizerIOW no idea what you're trying to tell me14:04
meceDocScrutinizer, heh ok..14:05
DocScrutinizer(and no, I'm not going to use FF or MSIE to watch that page)14:05
mecehow about this then: http://mobile.twitter.com/mece66/status/83484485680762880 http://mobile.twitter.com/vivainio/status/8348747190357606414:06
meceeven your browser should manage that one14:06
DocScrutinizeryo, brilliant14:07
mece:)14:08
DocScrutinizermece: it's absolutely easy to switch to your own stuff. But you enter tainted mode, which means commercial apps refuse to run on that system14:08
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meceDocScrutinizer, is that so?14:10
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CorsacDocScrutinizer: then just ship a manifest file14:10
DocScrutinizerthe transition is defined as ""set tainted flag. Stop all secure apps. Clean memeory used by secure apps (so no binary phantoms like hashes etc remain). remove the key infra. THEN start any of the insecure apps user requested""14:10
kepHello. Can i ask question about titan kernel?14:11
meceDocScrutinizer, where are you reading this?14:11
Corsache's making that up14:11
DocScrutinizerin IT magazines since 200114:11
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meceDocScrutinizer, are you sure we have this on N9?14:11
DocScrutinizeras that's about how long this shit is around now14:11
DocScrutinizerthe concept is unchanged14:12
DocScrutinizeryou CAN NOT change that concept, without introducing fatal vulnerabilities14:12
kepAccording to http://wiki.maemo.org/Overclocking#titan.27s_ULV_kernel wikipage there is ulv kernel for titan series. But how can i set up ulv values for kernel without reflashing my kernel like solution that nick "Lehto" had.14:12
meceDocScrutinizer, N900 isn't like this... so where are you reading that N9 is like this?14:12
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CorsacDocScrutinizer: I'm not even sure there's a way to taint a running device, you just won't be allowed to run your strace14:13
DocScrutinizersee URL above, unless they nuked it it's exactly what I referred to - even when Corsac claims they "improved" or "changed" it14:13
DocScrutinizerit still has sourcecode so the concept is still alive14:14
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DocScrutinizerCorsac: when you're not allowed to switch "secure" -> "open" then that's an implememtation shortcoming14:14
lardmanmorning14:14
DocScrutinizerCorsac: doesn't make thaings any better, huh?14:15
CorsacI don't think it's written anywhere that MSSF accepts a transition from normal to hacker mode without reboot14:16
dashavooAs my N900 has all but completely been written off, I am sad to see that the N950 is only going to be for people on the dev schemes :(14:16
DocScrutinizerthe concept allows for that. No idea if "your" implementation does14:16
Corsac“my”?14:16
Corsacwhat exactly are you talking about?14:16
DocScrutinizer"""your"""14:16
Corsacand the concept is MSSF, there's nothing else, I think14:17
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DocScrutinizerI'm talking about a concept od "security" and "integrity" that's sold to  users as a good thing, but indeed is a big stinking PoS14:18
Corsachmhm, didn't I say that I would stop trolling?14:18
Corsacthank you for establishing you don't have a single clue about the whole thing14:18
DocScrutinizerand that concept been around since MS invented fritz chip14:18
DocScrutinizeror was it Intel?14:18
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Corsacpeople like you, spraying fud like that, are just hiding the real problems14:19
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DocScrutinizerCorsac: I'm happy I have no clue about your limited view of the world14:19
Corsacyou don't make yourself a favor14:19
DocScrutinizerevidently the brainwash worked excellent on you14:19
DocScrutinizerthere's just so many concepts based on a hierarchical chain of trust and integrity14:20
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DocScrutinizerdon't tell me Nokia invented a completely new one14:21
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Hurrianhas anyone opened up the Maemo 6 image yet?14:22
DocScrutinizerit's just so complex meanwhile that you *think* you can get around the immanent limitations which are: you can't run strace, gdb, $random-unsigned-tool-or-app, on a platform while keep running trusted apps concurrently14:23
DocScrutinizerand there's no way other than reboot to clean up a tainted environment14:24
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DocScrutinizerno matter how finegrained your resource monitoring might get14:24
Hurrianwell, tainted mode is for devving apps, no point in debugging closed source apps :)14:25
DocScrutinizerHurrian: indeed. but you missed the point of global mutual exclusiveness14:25
Hurrianah14:26
Hurrianwell, we may as well be running apps in a sandbox. aaaaaaaaaaheeeeem.14:26
mecebut where does it say n9 has any of that crap?14:26
meceerm14:26
meceor?14:26
DocScrutinizerwhen you start GDB, you can't control which process it's going to monitor14:26
Hurrianmece: aegis14:26
DocScrutinizerbasically14:26
mecewtf is aegis?14:26
meceand where does it say aegis?14:26
Hurriansystem supported DRM14:26
Hurrianonly care about it if you're buying apps off the app store14:27
HurrianOvi has no apps.14:27
meceso it needs cracking...14:27
mecehow annoying14:27
mecedrm is made to be broken14:27
ruskiedrm is broken by design14:27
Hurrianruskie, agreed, but how do we make companies NOT put in DRM?14:28
meceruskie, no kidding14:28
DocScrutinizerHurrian: don'T buy devices that support it14:28
Hurrianthere's always a serial, MAC check, etc14:28
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ruskiewhat Doc said14:28
ruskieHurrian, hahahaha14:28
Hurrianpeople always get around it14:28
ruskieMAC is pointless since it's easily changable14:28
ruskieeven on windows systems14:28
mecebut...14:28
Hurrianit's flawed, and perfectly breakable14:28
DocScrutinizerHurrian: not THIS crap14:29
mecevivainio said you can run anything installed from a deb14:29
DocScrutinizerHurrian: unless they messed it up14:29
HurrianDoc: what crap?14:29
ruskiemece, yeah from what I understood it was something along the lines of you can have DRM enabled and limited to what you can do ... or disable it and do whatever but lack access to DRMed stuff14:29
DocScrutinizerthe signed bootlaoder, to start with14:29
ruskieatleast from what I've read before14:29
Hurrianwait a second, the N9's bootloader is signed?14:29
DocScrutinizerthat hands credentials (=trust/integrity) to a signed kernel14:30
mecemost likely.14:30
Choomwhat's the TLDR of this argument?  the N9 comes with trusted computing modules?14:30
jaskaheh, do they really keep the dialer in hitlermode?14:30
jaskathats pretty awful if they do14:30
DocScrutinizereven N900 BL is signed14:30
DocScrutinizer(1st stage)14:31
DocScrutinizerChoom: OMAP14:31
ChoomI'm assuming, from the two pages of scrollback that I've read, that they are being used14:31
HurrianDoc: the N900's 0th stage is ROM, and apparently verifies any NOLO image fed to it14:32
DocScrutinizerindeed NLDR or what's the neame is 1st stage after ROM, and that one is signed, and load an unsigned NOLO (still?)14:33
DocScrutinizerXLDR?14:33
DocScrutinizerNOLO is 2nd dtage14:33
DocScrutinizerstage*14:33
Hurrianiirc it's the secure ROM found inside the OMAP14:34
DocScrutinizerwith PR1.2 they shiped some new NOLO, "for making development of security framework on meego possible"14:34
Hurrianbrb, it's about time the EMMC image coughed up the bins14:34
meceachipa, N9 or N950?14:35
DocScrutinizerand now I have to face Corsacs etc calling my concerns FUD14:35
DocScrutinizerTHANKS14:35
achipamece: N95014:36
meceachipa, nice :)14:36
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achipaN9 is really nice, but I realized I'm really a N950 guy14:37
achipatoo much really, but really :)14:37
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DocScrutinizerI hope I demonstrated my complete cluelessness regarding concept of "integrity" to a sufficient extent during the last 45 min, and wish you all a nice afternoon, morning, night, whatever14:37
Khertanachipa: +114:37
cloudyLightsbye bye14:38
cloudyLightsachipa: +214:38
Khertanachipa: did you see the video of n95014:38
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achipaKhertan: umm, I saw one video... a polish one ?14:38
Khertanachipa: yep14:38
Khertanachipa: Tweet from Nokia N9 <<< huhu !14:39
DocScrutinizerhttp://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5115609628556940516&q=trusted+computing#14:39
cloudyLightsKhertan: can you pls help me with releasing my app?14:39
KhertancloudyLights:  whar is the problem ?14:39
Khertans/whar/what14:39
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cloudyLightswell I changed the pypackager file again, to make the status menu show the button14:40
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achipayep, no longer have to hide behind "via iPhone" :P14:40
RST38hDocScrutinizer <-- one hell of a morbid complaining FUDder14:40
Khertanhihi14:40
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cloudyLightsbut I need to test a clean install on a N90014:40
meceachipa, post boot log and dmesg plz?14:40
cloudyLights"just to know it works"14:40
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RST38hDoc: You will be absolutely happy with DRM! =)14:40
cloudyLightsI can't get scratchbox to do X on my 64 bit pc14:41
KhertancloudyLights: same problem here :)14:41
cloudyLightsand I have asked all ppl I know to :"just install it"14:41
KhertancloudyLights: as i never install your app ... i can install it on my device :)14:41
cloudyLightshow can I release a package Ididnt test?14:41
KhertancloudyLights: extras devel :)14:41
CorsacKhertan: can the video be watched without flash?14:42
achipamece: as said, the moment we give the first one in somebody's hand, you'll have it, sorry, can't do better than that :(14:42
KhertancloudyLights: or simply do a binary build14:42
meceachipa, no worries :)14:42
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cloudyLightsKhertan: I need one person to say "it works"14:42
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KhertanCorsac: youtube provide html5 video no ?14:42
KhertancloudyLights: where is the deb file ?14:42
cloudyLightshttps://code.google.com/p/switch-profile-by-meeting/downloads/list14:43
cloudyLightsI even have the source open there - so you can verify its ok14:43
cloudyLightsmost ppl fear this maybe malware14:43
CorsacKhertan: yeah, do you have the youtube link?14:43
cloudyLightsbut I just wrote a few python lines....14:44
Hurrianrunning binwalk now on the image files :D14:47
KhertanCorsac: http://www.meegofrance.com/2011/06/video-du-nokia-n950/14:47
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KhertancloudyLights: ?14:51
cloudyLightsI mean: one can't just install software from an unknown source14:51
cloudyLightsppl should fear installing unknown software (spoken like a true security expert)14:52
ruskierofl14:52
cloudyLightsyet I need to test my first app14:52
mececloudyLights, what is the problem?14:53
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cloudyLightshere is another app I would love to have: "find my wife"14:53
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cloudyLightsmece: pls install my new app , and tell em if it works14:53
cloudyLightsso I can submit it to devel-extras14:53
ruskiethe point is you submit it there and then people test it14:54
cloudyLightsthe "wife" installs the prog and yu do14:54
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mececloudyLights, what ruskie said14:54
cloudyLightso ok... emm14:54
mececloudyLights, you don't have a device yourself?14:54
ruskieall due to some bugga bugga scary thing that people have about using non-main repositories... what's the point of having this option then even in...14:54
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cloudyLightsso if your "wife" is bad with navagating, you can get to her14:55
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cloudyLightsmece: I allready have it running14:55
mececloudyLights, so it works.14:55
cloudyLightswell, maybe Khertan would verify it , and I would submit it14:56
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mececloudyLights, if it works on your device, you can upload it to devel and then ask someone to test it.14:57
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khertanre14:58
khertandisconnected14:58
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khertanhéhé ... just send me the deb package14:58
khertani ll say you if it s works or not14:58
khertando not fear ... i ll install it on my 2nd n900 which i use for that14:59
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CorsacDocScrutinizer: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-security-discussion/2011-June/000176.html15:00
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cloudyLightsI find I waste a lot of time finding my wife , even when she is "near me15:01
Hurrianyeeeeeehaw, mounted mmc0 image15:01
meceHurrian, umm..15:01
Hurriantime to look for the ext4 inside it15:01
meceHurrian, ah ok :)15:01
cloudyLightsKhertan: https://switch-profile-by-meeting.googlecode.com/files/switch-profile-by-meeting_0.0.1-1_all.deb15:01
CorsacHurrian: from which image?15:03
HurrianN95015:04
Hurrianmmc1 image is blank15:04
khertan?15:04
Corsachmhm, and where did you get it from?15:04
CorsacI think I only saw some rootstrap for sdk15:04
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Hurriannokia n950 site15:05
Hurriani'm going to try the rootfs later15:05
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CorsacHurrian: hmhm, what n950 site, the harmattan-dev one?15:06
Corsacor the swipe stuff?15:06
meceharmattan-dev15:06
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khertancloudyLights: nothing in status menu after install15:07
cloudyLights:-(15:07
_trinehttp://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dder%2Bspiegel%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1250%26bih%3D754%26prmd%3Divns&rurl=translate.google.co.uk&sl=de&u=http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/gadgets/0,1518,769589,00.html&usg=ALkJrhj9hPJCeisODA5dDpiqKTpWIoQpYQ15:07
cloudyLightscan you pls open a root shell and pkill status?15:07
RST38hgive us a summary please15:08
* Arkenoi wonders if n950 overclocks and what is maximum safe frequency15:08
CorsacHurrian: hmhm then I fail to see a rootfs15:08
Arkenoidespite all FUD, i found no side effects of being overclocked for an year on n90015:09
RST38halso, will it blend?15:09
cloudyLightsKhertan: sorry new deb is: https://code.google.com/p/switch-profile-by-meeting/source/browse/trunk/deb/switch-profile-by-meeting_0.0.1-1_all.deb15:09
Hurrianrootfs.lzo15:09
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Arkenoiah, actually almost 1.5 years now15:09
khertancloudyLights: nothing more after status reboot15:09
cloudyLightshttps://switch-profile-by-meeting.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/deb/switch-profile-by-meeting_0.0.1-1_all.deb15:10
* mece wonders if the N9 and/or the N950 have fm receiver / transmitter hardware15:10
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jpinx-awaymece: and a TV and dual sim - like my chinese device ;)15:11
Hurriandamn nokia, the rootfs.lzo image does NOT look like a lzo image15:11
ruskiehttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/22/meego_and_betrayal_myths/15:11
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khertan***mece wonders if the N9 and/or the N950 have fm receiver / transmitter hardware <<< no fm transmitter15:13
cehtehir transmitter? ... no15:14
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fluxtoo bad, it's a great toy when you need it. although, external fm transmitters are cheap and easy to use I imagine.15:14
Jaffakhertan: None officially15:14
khertanJaffa: indeed ... officially :)15:14
khertanflux: fm transmitter never work in Paris15:15
khertantoo much parasite15:15
khertantoo much noise15:15
fluxwell, happily I don't live in Paris :)15:15
khertan:)15:15
khertancloudyLights: did it s works on your device ?15:16
cloudyLightsyes15:16
cloudyLightsbut I used it to develop15:16
cloudyLightsso there maybe missing peaces15:16
fluxalthough it's not always that easy to find a proper freq here in Finland either, if you're driving long distances15:16
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fluxbut I never tried boosting the fm tx, maybe it would've helped15:17
meceflux, well it's as much of a toy for me as any other method of getting sound from phone to something with nice speakers. And of course it must be boosted to work :)15:17
cehtehbesides i bet the n9 will be insanely expensive ... nokia isnt really about selling masses of it, they just have to fulfill some obligations/contracts15:17
khertancloudyLights: probably missing dependencies ;)15:18
cloudyLightscan you run : cruxEve615:18
Hurriani'm starting to think flasher puts the rootfs files together15:18
cloudyLightssorry15:18
dashavooI missed most of the discussion that was inevitably above, but does anyone have any idea how dev-friendly the N9 will be?15:18
griIs there some sort of mailing list / forum / wiki for the harmattan sdk? I mean with explanations (why the emulator cannot run any menu entries but manual start works sometimes) or whether to use meegotouch or qml etc.?15:19
cloudyLightscan you run : /usr/lib/switchProfByMeeting/switch_backend.py15:19
cloudyLightsas user15:19
khertanline 53 undefined name status15:19
khertanline 6415:19
khertansame15:19
Jaffaruskie: Andrew Orlowski is a troll15:19
khertanpyflakes result :)15:19
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ruskieJaffa, but a good one at that ;)15:20
cloudyLightskhertan: thnaks15:20
cloudyLightsthnaks!15:20
khertancloudyLights: and switch_backend.py say no module gobject :)15:20
ShadowJKanyone see any bq* modules in n9 kernel?15:21
cloudyLightsok, so what does gobject belongs to....15:21
khertanpython-gobject15:21
cloudyLightsso let me add it15:22
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Hurrianshadowjk, still haven't unpacked the images15:22
ShadowJKah15:23
Jaffaruskie: Well he uses the word "fanbois" in the first sentence and it doesn't take him long to cook up a conspiracy theory of conspiracy theories, using it to knock DEC, Sun, IBM *and* Linux.15:23
cloudyLightskhertan: where do you see line 53 undefined name status ?15:23
Hurrianwait15:23
HurrianzImage15:23
ruskieJaffa, yeah like he always does ;)15:23
khertancloudyLights: in /usr/lib/hildon-desktop/switch.....py15:23
Hurrian2.6.32.39-dfl61-20112P15:24
HurrianRAAAAAEG15:24
ruskiehttp://xkcd.com/915/ <-- hehe15:24
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javispedrojaffa: bet you are scared with arjan's post getting scattered through twitter15:25
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Jaffajavispedro: Fortunately LWN's comment system is sane, so mine's underneath it :_)15:25
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javispedroatm, two of the items I have on my rss reader stock #meego twitter feed link to arjan's15:26
JaffaInteresting icons at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LphiRFvd40I&feature=player_detailpage#t=426s - The Telegraph, Hotel Hunt, My Bank, Foursquare, YouTube, ...15:26
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khertancloudyLights: in switch_backend line 159 backend variable referenced before assignement15:26
khertanin switch_frontend.py line 70 return_tuple undefined15:27
nid0Jaffa: idd, if theyre actual apps expected to be available by launch its a good start15:27
cloudyLightsswitch_frontend.py is not used now15:27
jhbhi *. when I ssh into my n900 I can login, but sometimes the connection just hangs. It seems to work quite nice the other way around n900->laptop. Its only happening with this ap, any ideas (besides changing ap?)15:27
nid0change ap or change n900's power saving15:27
khertanjhb: economy saver15:28
jhbkhertan: saving is disables, ping is running in bg from n90015:28
jhbdisabled15:28
khertanso swith ap :)15:28
khertancloudyLights: pyflakes is really usefull ... is available on n900 and is integrated in KhtEditor you should try it15:29
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cloudyLightsok15:29
Jaffajavispedro: I'm trying to do my own Twitter frenzy then15:29
cloudyLightsthnaks15:29
Jaffajavispedro: https://twitter.com/#!/jaffa2/statuses/8351185817005260915:29
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jhbkhertan: no such setting on the ap :-(15:32
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khertani mean use other ap15:33
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edheldilspeaking of OS/2, was not it Microsoft who pulled from OS/2, effectively sinking the project because of incompatibility with windows apps?15:33
javispedrojaffa: but there's no news like na15:33
javispedrolike bad news15:33
javispedroso you're going to have a hard time15:34
RST38hmoo javispedro15:34
javispedromaybe it's time I make my first twit.15:34
RST38hTheRegister article is good, professional trolling15:34
Jaffajavispedro: Woo15:34
RST38hLots of truth there15:34
javispedrohi there RST38h15:34
RST38hWhether it completely describes the Meego situation is a whole different question though15:34
* ruskie wonders if there will ever be a device to replace the N900 from Nokia...15:34
JaffaRST38h: I dunno, "fanbois" as the second word and conspiracy theories about conspiracy theories...15:34
lardmanjavispedro: s/twit/tweet ?15:35
javispedrorst38h: I call those the "convenient" truth15:35
RST38hJaffa: Well, I did read beyond the keywords and to the end15:35
ruskieJaffa, that's more or less their usual writting style15:35
Jaffaruskie: Depends what you use your N900 for. It's either the N950 or N9. Ain't gonna be better from Nokia in the short term15:35
ruskieJaffa, but they don't sell the N95015:35
* lardman is sad, just handed over keys to flat he's lived in for past ~11 years15:35
ShadowJKznd N950 us unobtanium15:35
RST38hJaffa: One thing is, his musings of Nokia CEO being realist do not quite explain other quirks in his behaviour15:35
JaffaRST38h: I read to the end (skimmed the bits about IBM & OS/2, I've read enough about that)15:35
ruskieso that can't be a valid choice in this case15:35
Jaffaruskie: You didn't say "sell". You said, "if there'll ever be a replacement from Nokia"15:36
JaffaGetting an N950 will be "from Nokia" ;-)15:36
ruskiewell there obviously isn't15:36
ruskietalking general population15:36
ruskienot secret club15:36
RST38hJaffa: Secondly, I am still not buying the idea that there is no place in the world for mobile platforms other than Android and iPhone15:36
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Appiahwait, what secret club?15:36
RST38hlardman: Not changing the country though?15:36
JaffaRST38h: Evidence is that there's far more openness in handsets than there is in PCs, laptops or tablets.15:36
khertanJaffa: will be probably hard to get an n95015:37
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RST38hJaffa: The whole idea of the "race being decided, and iOS/Android have won" stikes me as a bit cheesy15:37
ruskieNokia could sell the N950 to those that bought a N900...15:37
ruskiejust have a proof of purchase and you could buy a 950... that would be nice15:37
khertanruskie: they prefer so sell / give it to dev to have rapidly more apps for n915:38
ShadowJKAppiah, secret club of 250 N950 devices15:38
JaffaShadowJK: There are a few secret clubs15:38
lardmanRST38h: no, just moving into the country - craptastic 2G only for the next couple of weeks15:38
AppiahShadowJK: =(15:38
khertanShadowJK: 250 is for meego foss dev and for the moment from what i understand of quim gil blog post15:38
fluxmaybe the hardware for N950 is so old with obsolete components that to build more of them they would need to redesign parts?15:39
ruskieflux, I thought the N9 wasn't all that different in parts used?15:39
Termanamicro sim is rather disappointing, I'm going to have to do some SIM chopping15:39
ShadowJKalmosst same parts I think15:39
javispedroflux: no15:40
DocScrutinizerN950 has manufacturing/QA/cert issues15:40
DocScrutinizerthat's why15:40
ShadowJKtermana: yeah wtf. So if sim chopping fails I have to spend 20€ to get another sim and a second attempt15:40
ruskieTermana, hehe I'm gonna get a dual-sim one number thingy from my cellco so I can cut one up and still have one normal... and I'd like to shoot apple for the stupid microsim thing15:40
khertanDocScrutinizer: oh really ?15:40
DocScrutinizersomething along that line15:40
ruskieDocScrutinizer, so why not say this or an incarnation of such device might be sold later on?15:40
RST38hlardman:15:40
ruskieif it only has issues that need sorting?15:40
RST38hlardman: a minor adventure then =)15:41
ShadowJKif it's made like E7, well even the static display models in shops have the slider mechanisms broken :P15:41
Termanaruskie, it's more than just issues15:41
DocScrutinizerI think it's been konttori who said they'd love to sell them in huge numbers, but they can't produce enough, for some "CE" reason15:41
lardmanOT, but any ideas on long VGA cables + how to get edid working?15:41
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lardmanRST38h: yeah :)15:41
RST38hShadowJK: The shop models are no indication15:41
TermanaThese N950s are just old prototypes, they are not being made and then shipped out.15:41
RST38hShadowJK: They take pretty hard handling =(15:41
TermanaNokia has nothing better to do with them15:42
ruskieohh well here's hoping they'll eventually come up with a proper replacement eventually15:42
RST38hlardman: If you need a long cable, go with DVI or HDMI15:42
ShadowJKRST38h, actual N900 on display in same shop was fine :P15:42
Appiaharggh15:42
Appiahså confusing15:42
ShadowJKthough someone had entered a lock code for the lulz15:42
RST38hShadowJK: Maybe nobody was interested! =)15:42
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lardmanRST38h: not even long, just 3m15:42
RST38hlardman: but a 3m VGA still works, if it is a good cable15:43
RST38hlardman: the price not being any indication of how good it is15:43
* ShadowJK is hoping Nokia will come out with a N900 replacement too :(15:43
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DocScrutinizeralso emember that old urban rumour about some maemo device got rejected by carriers due to slide being "too flimsy" or sth15:43
lardmanRST38h: drat, so just a case of trying some more then15:43
DocScrutinizermight well be exactly this N95015:43
TermanaShadowJK, the N915:43
Damion_the n950 seemed extremely robust and well made, nice rubberised plastic15:43
Termana;)15:44
ShadowJKTermana, N9 is stupid15:44
Damion_the newer black ones they're starting to give out that is15:44
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* ShadowJK 'd much rather have a "N900i". N900 with memory/soc upgrade and everything else untouched.15:45
DocScrutinizerone thing's for sure: Nokia didn't design and develp N950 on sole purpose of giving a small number of them to devels15:45
RST38hlardman: Yea, but do not go for the most expensive golden plated one. My experience shows that a $10 non-name cable from RadioShack works =)15:45
ruskieShadowJK+++++++++++15:45
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: yep15:45
lardmanRST38h: long way to RadioShack from here ;)15:45
RST38hShadowJK: You can have it in photoshop, courtesy of many TMO open hardware designers!15:45
TermanaShadowJK, suit yourself but I'm sure we can all predict what is going to happen here15:45
RST38hlardman: YOu must have a replacement of sorts!15:45
TermanaThe same damn thing thats happened with basically every release15:46
lardmanRST38h: yeah I know :)15:46
ruskieShadowJK, and maybe a 4.5" screen15:46
ShadowJKRST38h, I once bought a bunch of adapters and connected all my random vga cables together into a long one. worked fine :-)15:46
lardmanShadowJK: I was thinking of doing that actually15:46
khertann950 seems the best phone i ve seen until now for me15:46
RST38hlardman: Hell, given the perceived conservatism of UK, it may still be selling soldering irons!15:46
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khertan4", keyboard, python :)15:46
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RST38hShadowJK: Usually causes shadows at all the window edges15:47
khertanand it s a phone ... i didn't ask too much :)15:47
ShadowJKruskie, sure, you could make a long wishlist, but this was the mininmum effort for a next model N900 replacement :-)15:47
DocScrutinizeralso isn't it tale telling that N950 seems available in numbers sufficient for devel device program, while N9 still is kinda vaporware?15:47
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RST38hShadowJK: Due to the signal bouncing, if I remember Wiki correctly =)15:47
ruskieDocScrutinizer, so you're saying or hoping it might actually be some pre-prod device that might get polished up eventually?15:47
javispedroDocScrutinizer: as RST38h said, there's still some time left for elop to cancel the entire line ;P15:47
DocScrutinizeryep15:47
RST38hDoc: There is a comment explaining this in a thread under Arkanoid's blog post15:47
* lardman wanders off to see if he can scrounge a 2m cable15:48
nid0DocScrutinizer, its basically obvious given all factors that the n950 is what was supposedly meant for last year or the rejected one thats just now been repurposed, and all my fingers, toes, hairs, and everything are crossed that theyll also put out a proper updated one :)15:48
ruskiewould definately be nice15:48
khertanIn hope we believe15:48
Hurrianugh! n950 EMMC will need to be rebuilt to be able to be mounted15:48
RST38hDoc: Basically comes down to them planning to release N950 first, making some samples, then canceling it in favor of something that should have followed N9, then cancelling the N9 followup and consequently digging remaining N950 stash for developers until N9 is ready15:48
TermanaI think there is a lot of misplaced hope in this channel15:48
RST38hDoc: [yes, I know]15:49
khertanTermana: ... :)15:49
ruskieit would be nice if the N9 sells well enough for Nokia to actually go... ok we'll run one or two products per year15:49
* khertan hope his n900 will not die to fast ... :)15:49
RST38hruskie: "<Termana> I think there is a lot of misplaced hope in this channel"15:49
DocScrutinizerRST38h: why would they cancel anything?15:50
ruskieactually someone here @work said he is definately interested in buying the N915:50
javispedroso, gentlemen. let's make a new channel, #n950auctions, where our beloved opensource developers can bid for the single n950 that will eventually be distributed15:50
RST38hDoc: sigh15:50
DocScrutinizerit's not like they're short on reflow lines for manufacturing15:50
ruskieand he's a .NET dev... and I go.. you are aware this thing runs linux and at that not android?15:50
khertanjavispedro: :)15:50
* ShadowJK has 1.5 year warranty left on his N900, and a spare N900. I hope they last until a replacement is available :)15:50
RST38hDoc: Ah, you do not understand anything about BUSINESS STRATEGY15:50
ruskieShadowJK, hmm only half a year left on warranty on mine15:50
nid0Termana, there's hope and theres sensible. The N9 getting positive previews even from the likes of engadget should be a hint to nokia that theyre on to something decent, if it follows through with sales, or even if after sale reviews are positive except for the lack of continued support, it should be a big hammer of a wake-up call that supporting meego (AND wp7) is a sensible direction15:50
RST38hDoc: That is why you are not a CEO like Elop!15:51
* RST38h giggles happily15:51
ruskiebut I still see new with warranty sold for like 200eur or so15:51
khertanRST38h: business strategy is a myth, money governance not15:51
ShadowJKruskie, basically I bought a second one because I thought Nokia Care had stolen my first one15:51
ruskieahh15:51
Termananid0, I was mainly referring to people putting too much hope in seeing the n950 in future as a retail product15:51
ruskiedon't think we get nokia care here15:51
ruskiejust the local nokia importer that also runs the service(and has since forever)15:52
khertanruskie: and don't think that nokia cares15:52
khertan:)15:52
meceruskie, you get nokia don't care15:52
khertanhuhu easy15:52
mecewell they cared enough to fix my n900 in 3 hours :)15:52
ruskiethough sadly one has to haggle with them like with all other repair services here15:52
Termananid0, also, it's going to be very hard for Elop to suddenly back out of the Microsoft deal, even if the N9 sells really well.15:52
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ruskiemece, someone had to go to nokia croatia and for them to slam down on this lot so they repaired the usb plug on his n90015:52
ruskieTermana, nobody said they should back out15:53
javispedrothere's no friggin way after the billion dollars of bribery microsoft already sent15:53
DocScrutinizerhonestly, a product may get binned when it turns out it takes too long to market so it's obsolete on sales start.15:53
ShadowJKnot here either, it actually cost like 40€ to get warranty service (and then it took 2 round-trips, a month each)15:53
nid0Termana: why would he need to back out of the deal - If anyone can support 2 platforms it (should) be nokia, and plenty of other manufactures do15:53
Hurrianoh waaaaaait. the EMMC image contains nothing but it's MyDocs15:53
ruskieTermana, hell nokia already supports quite a few15:53
DocScrutinizerbut I never seen a company cancel a product prematurely "to do something different"15:53
meceI don't really see how WP7 has anything to do with MeeGo. They could exist parallel to eachother just fine IMO.15:53
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ruskieor "supports"15:53
ruskiesince Nokia really isn't that good with supporting anything that much15:53
TermanaHas anyone seen the contract between Nokia and Microsoft? We don't know if the contract has locked Nokia in to a WP7 plan15:53
javispedrobecause "THE DEAL" seemingly has Nokia's primery phone platform being WP7. No other one15:53
javispedroat least it looks like that. Or Elop is a damn fine troll.15:54
nid0"primary" doesnt equal "only" though15:54
javispedrowhere is that "plan b is making sure plan a" works quote?15:54
TermanaSecondly, it will be a PR disaster for Elop and Nokia15:54
ruskieTermana, Nokia said they'll keep chugging out S40 devices15:54
mecejavispedro, whatever, could still have MeeGo as superduper awesome phone, without it being primary.15:54
javispedromece: no. just look at half the reviews.15:55
RST38hjavispedro: It is absent, currently being analyzed by best Wall Street analysts and psychiatrists15:55
TermanaIf Elop does not stick to the deal he made, people will continue to lose confidence in what Nokia is doing15:55
mecejavispedro, which half?15:55
nid0plans change. it took less than 6 months for elop to kill symbian and switch to wp7, from his "plan b is plan a" comment itll be roughly 6 months more to the release of the n915:55
javispedromece: the gizmodo half.15:55
mecejavispedro, the ones that didn't even look at the device you mean?15:55
DocScrutinizerTermana: that's logically impossible15:55
javispedronoone looked at the device tbh.15:55
RST38hIn the very worst case, they can just buy some HTC WP7 phones and replace the logos with Nokia ones15:56
meceengadget looked at the device15:56
DocScrutinizeryou can't lose nonexistent15:56
khertanachipa too :)15:56
RST38hAfter all, this is what Microsoft has done with Zune15:56
TermanaDocScrutinizer, heh :p15:56
javispedrothe engadget half is like "ooh, shiny ipod-style bezel", "meegotouchhome animations look fluid".15:56
javispedrowhile the gizmodo half is like "oooh, crappy maemo. bad boy!"15:56
khertanand ... nokia should use android15:56
javispedronoone even ran an application15:56
RST38hjavispedro: this is disturbing15:56
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Termanakhertan, oh you are a little troll aren't you! ;)15:56
RST38hjavispedro: I mean, Gizmodo fanboys disagreeing with Engadget fanboys is very disturbing15:57
khertanbut gizmodo and engadget is know to have plenty stupid comment15:57
khertani didn't read anymore comments on this site15:57
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khertan(if we can call that a site ... it s more a giant catalog of advert)15:57
mecewell imo engadget looked at the device and said it was nice while gizmodo said "nokia releases a pointless device" and said nothing about the device. At all. Same did bbc.15:57
javispedroRST38h: it's not a profound disagreement though.15:58
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nid0the bbc listened to "industry watchers" which seems to = gizmodo.15:58
meceyep15:58
RST38hjavispedro: Still, ain't they supposed to be the exactly same people?15:58
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TermanaBBC? Since when did anyone look at the BBC for tech news? :p15:58
javispedroRST38h: well, the cult might not mandate how you bash the other phones =)15:59
mecewell the bbc noticed the N9, but forgot to say anything about the device.15:59
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meceanyway I'm out. tata15:59
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RST38hAnyway, whoever of them turns out to be correct, teh Tentacled One is obviously using Gizmodo/Engadget as His personal feeding grounds. So people with the brains missing...15:59
DocScrutinizerhehe16:00
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thopiekarhi.. do you know which video output works on the N900 the best?16:07
lardmanah, I wondered what happened to Jussi. Marketting manager for the N9 afaict (http://thenokiablog.com/2011/06/21/nokia-n9-ui/)16:07
ShadowJK800x480 h264 baseline profile16:08
ShadowJKmain and high will not work16:08
lardmanOvi Store, I thought that had been dropped? Or is it just the name that has been dropped?16:08
RST38hlardman: I guess the promo materials were done before Elop keworked "Ovi" brand16:08
lardmanFair enough16:09
thopiekarShadowJK: thanks, but what about the codec output? opengl es? fbdev? XVideo for example is a bit slow as I can see..16:09
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DocScrutinizerthopiekar: aiui video is a special fbdev16:10
javispedroxv should work16:10
ShadowJKit's same backend as xv16:10
javispedroxv is what the default mediaplayer uses.16:10
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ShadowJKalso note that if you're trying to decode on CPU in software, 352x288 is probably max sane resolution16:11
RST38hShadowJK: Depends on the CPU16:11
DocScrutinizersigh16:12
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* DocScrutinizer suggests RST38h gets his context buffer fixed16:12
ShadowJKas he said N900 I assumed the default N900 cpu overclocked to 600 MHz16:12
javispedroso. I wonder what replaces xv in wayland ;=16:12
Stskeepsjavispedro: isn't xv basically about shipping frames off and aligning with vsync?16:13
vi__what is an NOLO?16:13
RST38hDoc: *My* context buffer is firmly fixed!16:13
ShadowJKstskeeps: no16:13
Stskeepsok, educat me16:13
Stskeeps+e16:13
javispedroStskeeps: I can bet the answer is a "pure client library without any server dependencies at all"?16:13
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Termanavi__, bootloader16:14
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ShadowJKstskeeps: it's about shipping frames in native video colourspace (YUV 12 bits per pixel) and native video resolution off to a hardware acceleratec colourspace transform and scaling16:14
ShadowJKvsync actually came to Xv as an afterthought16:14
thopiekarhmm I'm using XVideo in MythTV but is is very slow.. is there another output that would be faster?16:15
StskeepsShadowJK: so, a yuv 12 wayland buffer used as a texture and then rendered/scaled to screen?16:15
thopiekaror is it because of the high res?16:15
scoobertronhas anyone been able to use mediabox to control a dlna renderer?  I can see my sony hifi in the renderer list, but I can't make it play anything16:16
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StskeepsShadowJK: with help of gles?16:16
ShadowJKStskeeps, also used to bypass any 2D/3D GPUs as they were too slow and inefficient for video16:16
javispedroStskeeps: sloooooooooooooooooow16:16
Stskeepsmmkay16:16
javispedromaybe with texture streaming..16:16
javispedrobut I could see a client library wrapping all the omapfb tricks the server xv implementation currently does16:17
Damion_thopiekar: try -vo caca or aa both of those will be faster16:17
Stskeepstexture streaming sounds more likely16:17
Damion_although the quality is lower as it uses ascii to render16:17
javispedroafter all, my understanding of wayland is that this is about moving spooling/sharing/resource allocation/... of gfx devices to kernel, so maybe apps talking directly to kernel makes more sense.16:18
javispedro(at least on desktop...)16:18
ShadowJKIt's only relatively recently that PC graphics cards became fast enough to provide usablel video performance through 3D paths16:18
javispedroShadowJK: but that is exactly the reason this is happening16:19
Stskeepsjavispedro: well, people should have plenty ability to play with things, all my wayland work should be ready to play with sometime this summer16:19
javispedroif we still had slow, static, stupid gfx hw you'd hear noone talking about wayland16:19
Stskeepsjavispedro: so n900, n950, n9 will be wayland capable16:19
joppuStskeeps: so will there be fremantle-theme-example-stskeeps? :P16:19
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ShadowJKjavispedro, it was fast for video, and for 3d geometry, but not for receiving, processing and displaying huge amounts of pixels :P16:20
Stskeepsjoppu: for harmattan? nfi16:20
* SpeedEvil hates having to talk to people about wierd technical issues.16:21
joppuwhoops, yeah, that16:21
javispedroI still remember OS dev 101, where the trivial implementation of a UI server is basically give each app a piece of the framebuffer, and let each app draw there16:21
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SpeedEvilFor some reason, today my DSL line is negotiating interleaving on, but RS forward-error-correction off.16:21
thopiekarDamion_: using mplayer?16:22
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: I got DSL issues as well today16:22
ShadowJKI hope this "yuv buffer in wayland" isn't converted to rgb software anywhere, because that'd defeat the point and you'äd be better off letting the media player do that conversion16:22
RST38hjavispedro: Ah, you even had UI implementation?16:22
RST38hjavispedro: Not just scheduling and resource access?16:22
javispedroRST38h: nope, but read a few books on the topic16:22
joppuStskeeps: so how about it?16:22
Stskeepsjoppu: no idea, look at the meego ones :P16:22
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lardmanah good, quite extensive contact sync capabilities16:23
Damion_thopiekar: I think -vo is mplayer syntax but loads of stuff, probably MythTV aswell, can do aalib and cacalib16:23
RST38hjavispedro: Funnily, I did my first OS design circa 1990, with windowed (!) multiple-text-console-device (!!) OS running on 8080 :)16:23
javispedroeither way the point is that wayland is not a new idea, but something that is a simplification that is now reasonable for the single reason that hw is more capable16:23
javispedroand there is more free memory16:23
RST38hjavispedro: I think it died when the tape recorder chewed the cassette16:23
joppuStskeeps: I am right now, it looks like a mess of billion different image slices :D16:24
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lardmanThanks whoever in the Harmattan team decided to let us continue using SB, rather than the Meego OBS stuff :)16:24
javispedrolardman++16:24
javispedrolardman: though autobuilder is OBS ;)16:24
lardmanwell hidden from a mere developer like me thank God ;)16:25
X-Fadeosc build is so much easier :)16:25
X-FadeA nice chroot clean every time :)16:25
lardmanX-Fade: well perhaps it would be ok, but the Meego instructions are terrible16:25
lardmanand just generally very confusing16:26
javispedroRST38h: I'm too young, my hobby OS just ran from grub =)16:26
DocScrutinizer~seen konttori16:27
X-Fadelardman: Yeahm well it depends on what you want to do.16:27
infobotkonttori <~konttori@net-57.nrpn.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 23d 5h 53m 48s ago, saying: 'genius6'.16:27
javispedro~seen konttori_home16:27
infobotkonttori_home <~konttori@80-186-91-32.elisa-mobile.fi> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 16h 1m 55s ago, saying: 'night now all'.16:27
lardmanX-Fade: which to use I presume you're talking about, not the poor instructions ;)16:27
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X-Fadelardman: apt-get install osc; osc co -A https://api.pub.meego.com home:lardman:yourapp ; osc build16:28
X-Fadelardman: Done ;)16:28
lardmanbut yeah I can see the appeal for system building for sure16:28
javispedrotoo complex!16:28
X-FadeOk, I leave out the cd into dir etc. But still :)16:28
javispedroI mean, you're comparing it to a system where you just pushed the .dsc and .tar.gz dammit16:28
lardmanX-Fade: but there are questions, like why all the colons, how do I create this home:lardman:yourapp thing, etc.16:28
javispedrothis one tries to force some structure and good practices onto you16:28
javispedronot saying it's not bad, but it's.. .complex.16:28
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javispedros/it's not bad/it's bad :P16:29
ShadowJKand what repos do you need for osc16:29
lardmanif someone would write a "moving from scratchbox to osc" wiki page that would be great16:29
X-FadeShadowJK: it is in ubuntu repo too.16:29
JaffaX-Fade: But what goes *in* the dir?16:29
vi__can somone email elop and ask for my NIT back?16:29
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ShadowJK"too"?16:30
X-FadeJaffa: tarball, .dsc and debian.tar.gz, specfile if you want :)16:30
lardmanX-Fade: this is what needs to be written in the above page16:30
X-FadeShadowJK: Yes, unstable can also be downloaded from opensuse.16:30
JaffaX-Fade: If we can combine your example, with answers to lardman's and my questions, in a simple worked example for a printf("Hello world") app targetting Harmattan deb & MeeGo RPM; that'd be fab16:30
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JaffaX-Fade: Oh, so you still have to do the dpkg-buildpackage yourself?16:30
Jaffa(to get the tarball & .dsc)16:31
X-FadeJaffa: It is a builder, not a packager.16:31
lardmanX-Fade: not a problem, just a lack of understanding on our part16:31
X-FadeBut local building gives you a nice chroot. Where you can work on your package too.16:31
lardmanwe need hand-holding remember ;)16:31
X-FadeI have time to answer questions, but not to write complete documentation. So who can I bribe to try it out :)16:32
ShadowJKI so far thought you needed fedora, but I guess you need suse?16:32
X-FadeAnd write it up :D16:32
lardmanX-Fade: if no-one else volunteers I will do it, but it won't be for a couple of weeks as I lack a net connection on my build machine atm16:33
X-FadeShadowJK: No, you need one of the supported OSes listed here: http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/openSUSE:/Tools/16:33
javispedrono Gentoo!!16:34
X-FadeOr get it working in your flavour of OS. It is mostly python anyway.16:34
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ShadowJKugh16:35
lardmanX-Fade: how do I create my home:lardman dir?16:35
lardmanis that relative to the current dir?16:35
ShadowJKif only apt-get install build-essential would work ondevice it'd be so much simpler :D16:35
X-Fadelardman: go to https://build.pub.meego.com, log in and click on 'create home project'.16:35
ShadowJKwhat do the colons do?16:35
X-FadeIt is just a separator.16:35
javispedrobtw, what's my password for cobs?16:36
X-FadeSee it as a tree.16:36
javispedroah, same as meego.com16:36
X-Fademeego.com account.16:36
X-FadeIf you have requested to have access :)16:36
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javispedroyesterday :)16:36
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* ShadowJK thought this was about crossbuilding on your pc :)16:36
X-FadeYeah, it can be.16:37
Sazpaimon_"Oh, Nokia, shut up and take my money!"16:37
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Sazpaimon_best comment all day16:37
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X-FadeBut you can also use it to develop your app locally in a chroot without having to mess with scratchbox.16:37
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lardmanX-Fade: so one should do all development in the home project? Or one can create new projects? Or sub-projects of the home project?16:37
javispedroSazpaimon_: and we call Apple a cult...16:37
X-Fadelardman: Whatever you want. You can create subprojects.16:38
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X-Fadelardman: You should see it as repositories. So you can have multiple, you put packages in repositories.16:38
lardmanok16:38
javispedrowhich application should I test this with...16:38
lardmanSo I've created my home project, now I can add packages to it, what are these? From some repo, or are these the things I'm building?16:39
JaffaX-Fade: So you can have multiple projects in your home dir with different targets? (e.g. Fremantle, Harmattan, MeeGo, ...)16:39
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X-FadeJaffa: Yes.16:39
X-FadeJaffa: https://build.pub.meego.com/package/show?package=uxlaunch&project=home%3Axfade16:40
lardmanso does "My Projects" create projects within the home dir?16:40
lardmanrather than some larger namespace?16:40
X-Fadelardman: My projects will show you everything you are involved in.16:40
javispedrotoooooooooooooo complex16:41
javispedro=)16:41
lardmanjavispedro: I know, I'm just trying to work out what's going on so that I can start a wiki page with a simple example16:41
lardmanX-Fade: how do I create a sub-project then?16:41
javispedrolardman: yes, I'm trying to follow here, I already have a home project too16:41
X-Fadelardman: Actions -> create subproject.16:42
lardmancool, thanks16:42
X-Fadelardman: Or Advanced -> subprojects16:42
lardmanwhere shall I stick this wiki page? Maemo or Meego?16:43
javispedrolardman: both.16:43
javispedrolardman: a future council might decide to move fremantle to obs16:43
lardmanMaemo for the time being then16:43
Jaffalardman: I would've said MeeGo since it's build.pub.meego.com16:43
JaffaX-Fade: Are their best practices for home project Title & Description?16:44
lardmanJaffa: yeah but I don't know whether I have access to the wiki, I've never tried it16:44
Jaffalardman: Should do, it's all shared signon16:44
X-FadeJaffa: No, not really. You should see it as your PPA. Some people are tidy, some make a mess :)16:44
lardmanany thoughts on naming scheme if it's to be in the meego.com wiki?16:45
lardmanpath, etc?16:45
DocScrutinizerdeveloper.nokia.com is awesome. Yesterday I aplied 3 times for launchpad, had to fill lengthy query forms, and finally got to a page "your application been accepted" but trying to enter launchpad told me "permission missing". Today I visited same link "apply for individula membership at launchpad" and there showed up some new form "please first tell us about why you want to join".... Now they got "blablabla" in this filed which turned out16:45
DocScrutinizerto be the only thing to fill in today and got sent immediately when I supposedly enetered the huge page 2 via that ok-button16:45
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: forget about launchpad. I register early this year and still waiting16:45
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javispedrono denial, no refusal, no emails at all... just a "still processing your application" page when logging in16:46
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lardmanI think I'll go for this: http://wiki.meego.com/OBS/Scratchbox_to_OBS_in_baby_steps16:47
DocScrutinizeraah, I only got that "already processing your application" when I spinned in that endless loop yesterday, first and second time16:47
Jaffalardman: Start with http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_OBS and we'll worry about everything else later :-)16:47
lardmanoh ok16:47
DocScrutinizerthird time I went directly to "you may join launchpad now"16:47
DocScrutinizerwhich told me "perms missing"16:47
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X-FadeMaybe mention that it is from a developer pov.16:48
Jaffalardman: Nothing so far is Scratchbox-related. Once you've got to the chroot, I imagine the difference between Scratchbox and OBS is limited16:48
X-Fademairas: How's Europython?16:48
lardmantrue16:48
javispedrolardman: also, I think OBS and Scratchbox are not mutually exclusive16:48
lardmanok, will skip that part then16:48
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javispedroso.16:49
lcukShadowJK, yuv buffer in wayland?16:49
javispedroI have my subproject there16:49
javispedrowhere do I define the target platforms?16:49
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: thanks for headsup. I'll forget about that developers.nokia.com stuff then, it's obviously one huge mess16:49
lcukI know there are ogl shader fragments for doing the conversion, but I too hope for still being able to use the hardware yuv overlay16:49
javispedroDocScrutinizer: if they approve your application do tell, that means mine slipped out of the queue for some reason16:50
lcukbecause that is ~20% power saving per frame16:50
lcukeven before the conversion from yuv to rgb is accounted for16:50
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I doubt they will approve rasoning "blablabla" ;-P16:50
* javispedro gets tired and leaves for the time being16:51
javispedrocya later16:51
lardmancu javispedro16:51
DocScrutinizercya16:51
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Macerhttp://www.apnews.com/ap/db_45585/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=PIELZhxQ16:53
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mairasX-Fade, really cool - but I'm really busy now. later!16:54
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Macer:)16:55
* Macer is holding off on the i told you so16:55
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X-Fademairas: Hehe, enjoy!16:56
Macerrushing to get a winmob phone out16:57
Macersad nokia......sad16:57
lardmanX-Fade: so what does osc do?16:57
lardmanseems to do a checkout then build16:58
lardmandoes the checkout bring the code to your local machine?16:58
X-Fadelardman: osc can basically do whatever the webinterface can do.16:58
anidelJaffa you going to the Intel AppUp in London ? SkillsMaster?16:58
anidelMatter16:58
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X-Fadelardman: osc uses basically a svn like syntax.16:58
lardmanX-Fade: how would one use it? Like svn, checkout the empty project, add files locally, commit, then ask it to build?16:59
X-Fadelardman: exactly.16:59
X-Fadelardman: And you can build locally or remote.16:59
lardmanhow does one specify that?16:59
X-Fadelardman: On commit it will build remote automatically.17:00
Jaffaanidel: I like Skills' Matter, but not going to AppUp17:00
X-Fadelardman: And you can build it locally with osc build.17:00
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lardmanoh I see, so if I commited a .doc file would it try to build that, or does it looks specifically for e.g. a .spec file?17:00
anidelJaffa: ok. I will be there, so I was hoping to meet...17:01
Jaffaanidel: When is it?17:01
Jaffaanidel: Not to say I couldn't...17:01
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X-Fadelardman: It would see that as a new revision and rebuild. It will then after build check if the binary changed and decide to publish, or not.17:01
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anidelJaffa: the 5th17:02
anidelof July17:02
lardmanX-Fade: I meant if my project only contains a single .doc file (for example)17:02
anidelJaffa: http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/events17:02
anidelit's at 18:30-21:30 though17:02
lardmanor put another way, what does one need to put in the project to have it build itself?17:02
X-Fadelardman: No, that won't work.17:02
Jaffaanidel: Nicely after work.17:02
X-Fadelardman: for meego: .spec and tarball.17:02
anidelJaffa: yeah :) that's why I can go. There'll be people from the MeeGo London Network as well17:02
Jaffaanidel: However I think I'm on holiday, and've already been to an AppUp Application Lab.17:02
* Jaffa might let people at work know17:03
lardmanX-Fade: and for Harmattan?17:03
X-Fadelardman: for debian like: .dsc tarball and debian.tar.gz17:03
anidelokay17:03
lardmancool, thanks17:03
X-Fadelardman: debian.tar.gz is just your debian dir in a tarball.17:03
X-Fadelardman: this way you keep packaging out of your source.17:03
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lardmanok cool17:04
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X-Fadelardman: You can also just add these files through the webinterface btw.17:04
lardmanoh ok17:05
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X-FadeFor people who do not like command line stuff. (Who wouldn't :D)17:06
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X-Fadeosc basically talks to the obs api and the webui does that too.17:06
Kaadlajkwebui is just a lot buggier17:07
X-FadeOh yes :)17:07
lardmanok, so I've made a start: http://wiki.meego.com/Getting_started_with_OBS17:07
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Jaffalardman: Thanks. I've already made a tweak (having just checked apt-cache policy osc on Ubuntu Natty & Debian)17:09
lardmantweak away :)17:09
lardmanwe could do with some example files, or perhaps an example project space for people to look at17:09
lardmanso your "hello world" suggestion Jaffa17:10
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X-FadeYeah, that would be good.17:10
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Jaffalardman: Yeah, I'll do something tonight, I think17:10
lardmanI'm still internetless at home I'm afraid17:10
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* lardman hopes TalkTalk get on with it17:11
X-FadeAdded some osc commands.17:13
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Sazpaimon_http://www.slashgear.com/nokia-n9-android-app-support-promised-with-alien-dalvik-22160809/17:17
Sazpaimon_dont you just love misinformation?17:17
Sazpaimon_just because alien dalvik exists doesnt mean oems are gonna pick it up17:18
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JaffaX-Fade: lardman: Tweaked the formatting17:20
JaffaX-Fade: Should the home:[username] be home:[username]:[subproject]?17:20
X-FadeJaffa: Yeah, it was messed up. Thanks :)17:20
X-FadeJaffa: This is where you need technical writer skills. As you can do both.17:20
X-FadeWith out subproject, it will pull in everything.17:21
anidelLet me put my humbleness a part...what happened? Xournal went from 123k downloads in second half of May to over 233k now? and it's now the Hot download??17:21
X-FadeAnd with one specified of course only the one you specified.17:21
JaffaAh, cool.17:21
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JaffaX-Fade: Changed the first bullet to clarify that a bit.17:23
JaffaX-Fade: lardman: Thanks - that's just what I needed!17:23
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JaffaLink it up with my "How to get Qt SDK running with Harmattan" blog post :-)17:24
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X-FadeJaffa: Now I only need to get the harmattan sdk imported and we can build for it ;)17:24
lardman:)17:24
X-FadeAnd all the finns are starting to disappear because of midsummer :) So busy times ahead.17:25
X-FadeAt least now when the sdk updates, every package that depends on it is being rebuilt.17:26
X-FadeYou got to love that :)17:26
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lcukX-Fade, summer means helicopters :)17:28
lcukdon't work too hard and great work to date on all the backend stuff \o17:29
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X-Fadelcuk: And have people with new devices without a build system :) Nah. I'll take a break later.17:30
lcukheh17:30
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lcukRFC 12345: HTTP app deliver over helicopter link ;)17:31
X-FadeCurrently fighting with ruby.17:31
X-FadeWell Passenger actually.17:32
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DocScrutinizer~ping17:39
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DocScrutinizerping *17:41
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DocScrutinizerwhen did infobot die?17:44
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khertanHum ... just see that KhtEditor never reach Maemo Extras17:47
khertanhuhu17:47
khertanhttp://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/khteditor/1.0.7-1/ <<< need some help :) test and vote for it please17:47
merlin1991khertan: did you see my bugreport about khweeteur?17:48
khertanmerlin1991: not yet :)17:48
x29adocScrutinizer: today at 1600 european time17:48
DocScrutinizerx29a: thanks17:48
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DocScrutinizer~ping17:49
apt~pong17:49
khertanouch ... spammer on my bugtracker17:49
khertangrr17:49
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khertanmerlin1991: which bug number it was ?17:50
merlin199182617:50
khertan826 ? You re talking about khweeteur ... sorry i was looking at khteditor :)17:51
merlin1991<merlin1991> khertan: did you see my bugreport about khweeteur?17:52
merlin1991I think I did talk about khweeteur :D17:52
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khertanyou did it ...17:52
khertanZN6PySide15DestroyListener8instanceEv <- an other problem with PySide install17:52
khertancould you apt-get update pyside libs17:53
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khertandid you install it from extras testing or devel ?17:53
merlin1991devel17:53
merlin1991hence 0.5.25-117:53
merlin1991ah sry it's already in testing17:54
merlin1991but yeah I did install from devel17:54
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Guest36683Okay, I'm here. (courtesy of docscrutinizer)17:57
* DocScrutinizer ponders17:58
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DocScrutinizer~ping17:58
apt~pong17:58
DocScrutinizerGuest36683: ping17:58
Guest36683~pong17:58
apt~ping17:58
DocScrutinizerLOL17:58
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*** apt was kicked by DocScrutinizer (WTF?!)17:59
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merlin1991khertan: I did manually install libpyside1.0, now it segfaults when installing khweeteur instead17:59
DocScrutinizerfriggin netsplits17:59
khertanmerlin1991: lol18:00
khertanapt-get remove khweeteur18:00
khertanapt-get purge18:00
khertanapt-get install khweeteur18:00
merlin1991segfault, lol http://pastebin.com/tzKnwyhY18:01
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merlin1991khertan: still the same segfault18:03
merlin1991maybe the pyside packages / libs from devel are not sober?18:04
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* DocScrutinizer sings "what's the use of getting sober, when you have to get drunk agaaaiiin....18:05
khertanmerlin1991: it s possible18:05
psychologehi ,i have a problem,when i run some pyqt script in x-termine,it suggest:Maemo applications must be run with the run-standalone.sh script!18:06
psychologeQGtkStyle was unable to detect the current GTK+ theme18:06
merlin1991did you try running it with run-standalone.sh?18:07
psychologebut some other is ok,18:07
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psychologeyes ,/usr/bin/run-standalone.sh: line 11: currency.pyw: not found18:08
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hnoIs there some sane way to recover the addressbook contents from an backup without restoring it? Something broken in mine causing the addressbook to crash.18:11
Corsachmhm, what is APE in an fiasco image?18:12
psychologeoh,i find the answer:The error comes because you tried to run it with root privileges. Run it as user.18:13
merlin1991hno: do you want to restore only the adressbook part from the backup, or is that one broken?18:13
hnomerlin1991, i suppose its the adressbook that is causing the crash18:14
merlin1991well the backup consists of simple zip files and the addressbook basically is a sqlite db18:15
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hnoeverything works, except that its impossible to open the adddressbook and repeated popups about internal error adressboo terminated or something like those lines18:15
hnophone app seems to access the addressbook fine however.18:16
DocScrutinizerhno: why not restore?18:17
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hnoDocScrutinizer, because then the addressbook crashes again.18:18
DocScrutinizererr?18:18
Sazpaimon_you know what would be cool18:18
Sazpaimon_if the 3.5mm port of the N9 was like18:18
Sazpaimon_2 inches deep18:18
DocScrutinizerof course you first need to clean out your current database I guess18:18
Sazpaimon_and they came out with a component AV tv out cable18:19
Sazpaimon_which is probably completely possible18:19
Sazpaimon_the cable would be really thick, though18:19
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Sazpaimon_but the plug would need to have 5 or so contacts18:20
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X-FadeSazpaimon_: No, 4. And yes it already has that?18:20
Sazpaimon_why 4?18:21
X-FadeShared ground?18:21
Sazpaimon_can you do red and white through one contact?18:21
X-FadeNo it is composite.18:21
Sazpaimon_wouldnt it need 3 contacts for RGB and 2 sound contacts18:21
hnoDocScrutinizer, if I restore the addressbook from the backup onto a clompletely cleaned phone then adressbook app crashes.18:21
hnoḯll dig around a bit in the sqlite to see if i find any clue there18:22
X-FadeSazpaimon_: google for ca-75u nokia18:22
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: you'd want audio as well, so 618:22
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Sazpaimon_X-Fade, okay and?18:23
Corsacarf, harmattan kernels are taken from intrepid18:23
Sazpaimon_that's a standard composite video cable18:23
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Well, I want hdmi. But we're not getting that ;)18:23
Sazpaimon_I'm talking about component18:23
Sazpaimon_something like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/740791.jpg18:23
Sazpaimon_with the addition of audio18:23
DocScrutinizerhno: aaaah18:23
X-FadeYeah, but a hdmi plug would be so much smaller ;)18:23
DocScrutinizerhno: the archives/backups are really easy structure18:24
Sazpaimon_i believe you can send a component signal wth sound through a 3.5mm port18:24
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Sazpaimon_the plug would be slightly longer than a regular 3.5mm plug, but that wouldn't be a problem18:24
X-FadeThat would be a problem. A 3.5mm plug is big by todays standards.18:25
Sazpaimon_a couple more mm in length wouldnt be a big deal18:25
Sazpaimon_yes, an HDMI through microusb would be ideal, but I dont think itsgonna hapopen with the N9 (though neither would this)18:25
Sazpaimon_can the 3630 even do HDMI+sound?18:26
Sazpaimon_i thought it can only do HDMI video18:26
X-FadeSazpaimon_: Yeah, but then your battery would be 200mah smaller :)18:26
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Sazpaimon_hmm, apparently the droid x does sound over hdmi too18:27
Sazpaimon_so i guess the soc can do it18:27
DocScrutinizerrandom-crap_thru_USB is usually a very poor idea, esp on devices that charge via USB as well18:27
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Sazpaimon_personally I prefer DNLA streaming more than anything18:28
Sazpaimon_*DLNA18:28
Sazpaimon_I use it on my N900 all the time18:28
DocScrutinizer~dlna18:29
Sazpaimon_it's really convenient to access my media library from all my computers in my house from one device18:29
DocScrutinizer~dict dlna18:29
Guest36683could not find definition for dlna18:29
TermanaDocScrutinizer, infobot is down remember :p18:29
Termanaoh nevermind18:29
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DocScrutinizer;-P18:29
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Sazpaimon_DocScrutinizer, also known as UPnP18:29
DocScrutinizerI'm not infobot's master, but her elder brother18:30
Sazpaimon_basically you can stream your media from your home computers to your N90018:30
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Sazpaimon_when I'm at home, the media player will automatically show the computers on my network, and I can browse the content on them18:30
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DocScrutinizernever got that to work here18:31
DocScrutinizerprobably caused by a lack of redmond remote-controlled boxes around18:31
Sazpaimon_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWuCoe5q3hg here's a video showing it in action18:31
Sazpaimon_DocScrutinizer, just use mediatomb on any linux machine18:33
DocScrutinizerthanks18:33
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Sazpaimon_i think mediatomb does transcoding too18:33
Sazpaimon_so if you need to play media the N900 wont support natively, you're covered18:33
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lardman|gonecu tomorrow chaps18:34
DocScrutinizerno mediatomb for me :-/18:35
Sazpaimon_why?18:35
Sazpaimon_not showing up?18:35
hnoGah, the addressbook is a BDB DB, not sqlite.18:35
DocScrutinizerpackage manages says "no matches found"18:35
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Sazpaimon_DocScrutinizer, what OS?18:36
DocScrutinizerOSuse11.218:36
Sazpaimon_http://packman.links2linux.de/package/215418:36
Sazpaimon_right there in pacman18:36
* npm wonders why this crashes my browser (firefox4): http://conversations.nokia.com/2011/06/21/video-diving-into-the-nokia-n9-ui-and-specs/18:36
DocScrutinizerthanks :-)18:36
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DocScrutinizerhno: berkley, yup. Sounds about right18:37
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Sazpaimon_still no word from nokia about my developer application18:38
X-FadeSazpaimon_: Really, give it 2 weeks.18:38
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hnoIs ther any available info on the BDB "schema" used?18:39
Sazpaimon_they'll give out all the N950s by then :(18:39
DocScrutinizermeh, my user registration took only some hours18:39
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Sazpaimon_user registration was instant for me18:39
Sazpaimon_but signing up fort their developer launchpad18:39
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crashanddieWould you look at that18:39
Sazpaimon_that takes manual approval18:39
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crashanddieBoeing's PR took a page out of Apple's book.18:39
DocScrutinizeryeah, same here, and for javispedro18:39
crashanddieThe new interior design for Boeing's 737 passenger jet, the best-selling plane in aviation history, includes an innovation that is as radical as it is obvious: a flight attendant button that is situated well away from the reading light button and actually looks different from it.18:39
crashanddie"I feel we came up with a really good improvement," Beverly Wyse, Boeing's General Manager for the 737 program, told reporters at the Paris Air Show.18:39
X-Fadecrashanddie: *bing*18:40
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ShadowJKs/improvement/innovation/18:40
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fluxthat looks really innovative. now, can Nokia make a similarly styled statement of N9..18:46
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vi__yet somhow they still managed to attach defective engines to the a380...?18:49
Corsacvi__: I guess you noticed the a380 wasn't built by boeing?18:49
vi__Corsac: lol18:50
vi__oopz18:50
vi__I can no planez too18:50
vi__a380 economy class==moderate suck18:51
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rlinfati(n9 kernel beta...) Fixes: NB#245107 - Disable secure trim feature for Hynix eMMC temporarily :/18:55
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rlinfatiFixes: NB#236269 - Finally turn off /proc/component_version and bootreason :(18:56
DocScrutinizerwtf?18:56
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crashanddievi__ get your trolling straight, boeing ain't the A380 constructor18:57
rlinfatiDOcScrutinizer from kernel of harmattan beta....18:57
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DocScrutinizergathered as much18:57
rlinfatiFixes: NB#198898 - METABUG: Get rid of /proc/component_version and bootreason18:57
RST38hremoo all18:57
pabs3rlinfati: bootreason sounds useful, what is component_version though?18:57
rlinfatipabs3, show the hardware version and others...18:58
GeneralAntillesI love that Boeng is being told to close their new plant because it isn't a union shop.18:58
DocScrutinizer~ $ IroN900:~# cat  /proc/component_version18:59
DocScrutinizerproduct     RX-5118:59
DocScrutinizerhw-build    210118:59
DocScrutinizernolo        1.4.1418:59
DocScrutinizerboot-mode   normal18:59
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rlinfatiFixes: NB#224014 - bad colour of pictures and videos from secondary camera... SECONDARY CAMERA ???19:02
rlinfatiwell... maybe is not for n9....19:02
GeneralAntillesFront-facing19:02
GeneralAntillesOn N9.19:02
GeneralAntillesSo, what's new and exciting in the Harmattan SDK?19:03
GeneralAntillesSince I'm too lazy to read scrollback.19:03
swordihey DocScrutinizer did you know that NIN101 had to sent his n900 to repair and they still didn't sent it back, so he is now like 2 weeks without his n900, this is terrible, isn't it?19:03
DocScrutinizerrlinfati: what's wrong with frontcam in  N9(50)?19:05
rlinfatiDocScrutinizer. the n9(50) has a front camera?19:05
DocScrutinizerdefinitely19:05
DocScrutinizeraccording to http://www.developer.nokia.com/dp?uri=http://sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes19:06
anidelaccording to that doc both phones have a front facing camera19:06
GeneralAntillesFront-facing is listed in N9's specs19:06
GeneralAntillesThough without details.19:06
DocScrutinizerIn the N950 the front facing camera is in top right corner and on N9   it is in the bottom right corner. The actual camera module is same.19:06
rlinfatiahh, ok19:07
anidelwhat changes is the lens19:07
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anidelor at least the N950 didn't go to Carl Zeiss to get thru their test, so no Carl Zeiss label at least19:07
rlinfatiNo-charging (8mA) configuration added for OTG host :):)19:08
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Stskeepsrlinfati: in kernel?19:09
rlinfatiyep... http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/k/kernel/19:10
Stskeepsinteresting19:10
ShadowJKsounds more like.. connecting n9 to a otg-host device19:10
ShadowJKbecause if connecting peripherals, you'd want boost19:11
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rlinfatiin the ".config" has some references to OTG also....19:11
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DocScrutinizerfirst question: has it micro-B or micro-AB receptacle?19:13
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DocScrutinizerfor the rest kernel is irrelevant if the hw doesn't support it19:14
rlinfati  * Fixes: NB#198079 - Make 1GHz opp available on Lankku boards which support it19:14
rlinfati  * Fixes: NB#198077 - Enable Smartreflex on Lankku19:14
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ShadowJKnothing unexpected there19:14
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DocScrutinizergod, I'd love to be andre__ for an hour or two, browsing thru the Nokia bugtracker19:16
rlinfati  * Fixes: NB#198902 - /proc/component_version and /proc/bootreason deprecated :(19:16
DocScrutinizerlooks like some of the first patches to get reverted19:17
rlinfati  * FM-radio reset gpio change for RM-696 S1.1 builds and onwards... the n9 is rm-696 and the n950 is rm-680/690 ?19:17
rlinfatiFixes: NB#198750 - fix OOPS when destroying MMS network namespace.... *MMS network namespace* :)19:18
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DocScrutinizerfrals admitted he added MMS19:18
DocScrutinizerI think that's why Nokia hired him19:19
GeneralAntilleshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8jH_apD2k19:19
GeneralAntillesSlick looking device19:19
GeneralAntillesCan't believe they're not making in in scale.19:19
SpeedEvilBarking mad.19:19
rlinfatiyep... but with a "network namespace"... ie, 2 AP working over the modem19:19
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DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: THANKS!19:22
DocScrutinizermicro-B receptacle19:22
DocScrutinizerno OTG host19:22
* SpeedEvil is unsure about the keyboard layout19:23
DocScrutinizerusually micro-B means device can't act as USB host19:23
DocScrutinizerN900 been a special case where we made it act as host nevertheless19:24
rlinfatiFixes: NB#186286 - Division by zero in kernel jijiji19:24
DocScrutinizerI'm usure about that fliping mechanism. Can see why carriers say "too flimsy"19:25
GeneralAntillesI still want to know: HOW THE HELL DO YOU LOOK AT MEEGO AND DECIDE: "Man, this is shit. Let's switch to Windows."19:25
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: indeed.19:25
nid0GeneralAntilles: well, in a rather sharp reversal that's exactly the question even engadget is asking now19:25
SpeedEvil:)19:26
wmarone_Simple, you go "Microsoft wants me to switch this company over to Windows, that's why they got me this job..."19:26
wmarone_</conspiracy!>19:26
DocScrutinizerscratch that last line19:27
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DocScrutinizerthat's so plain obvious I just don't get it how Nokia could miss about that detail19:28
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Corsacyeah, the engagdet editorial is nice19:29
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Corsacand quite true19:29
Corsacbut maybe they did work like hell since february19:29
DocScrutinizerhonestly they could probably hire a 6 year old child and get the job done better than the elopocalypse19:29
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GeneralAntillesCorsac, I expect they did.19:32
GeneralAntillesBut even so.19:32
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GeneralAntillesWho were didn't believe MeeGo and Nokia was capable of putting together something like the N9?19:32
GeneralAntillesIt's just a matter of them getting out of their own way19:33
Corsac-EPARSE19:33
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rlinfatiadd MTP support to g_nokia ... ¿¿¿ MTP ???19:33
GeneralAntillesRephrased: We knew this was doable. Whatever state MeeGo was in when Elop found it, I don't see how you can just decide to nuke it.19:34
GeneralAntillesWorse, how can you get something like THIS together and still plan on nuking it.19:34
GeneralAntillesSupport for Qt is a "traces of Symbian" feature? . . .19:35
rlinfatiInitial packaging for 2.6.32 series in Harmattan. Mon, 19 Oct 2009 -> 2 years of development ? :S19:36
GeneralAntillesNot surprising.19:36
GeneralAntillesIt was announced in the end of 2009.19:36
Corsacrlinfati: at whole lot of people are using 2.6.3219:36
GeneralAntillesThey started work as soon as Fremantle stopped being actively developed.19:36
nid0tbh, I think what elop's currently doing is more a halfway house from the "zomg he killed it" and "meego for everything!!1" sides. the spending graphics they gave out always showed that theyd continue with meego development and just downscale it, and hes always maintained that itll be "the next disruption"19:37
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nid0perhaps that was intentionally leaving the door open to revive it as a strategy quicker if they did end up putting out something really top notch19:37
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: you ain't seen nothing. There may be *huge* nasty bugs in all dark corners of the system still19:37
GeneralAntillesBugs can be fixed.19:38
GeneralAntillesLook at what they put together.19:38
DocScrutinizerjust read http://www.developer.nokia.com/dp?uri=http://sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes19:38
GeneralAntillesIt's impressive on a level a mobile device hasn't been since the iPhone launched.19:38
hiemanshuugh, with the latest QtSDK 1.1.2, the freaking qemu emu doesn't work :/19:38
DocScrutinizeryeah, it once took us >12 months to fix a bug in GPS19:38
ShadowJKdid anyone notice the cleverness in saying it's made out of "polycarbonate" rather than saying "it's plastic"? :-)19:39
SpeedEvilCunning.19:39
DocScrutinizerthough I have to agree (even while I kinda hate the gui)19:39
SpeedEvilThey should have refered to 'bullet-resistant polymer'19:39
nid0consumers tend to want buttery-smooth interfaces more than flawlessly functionality though, the first is more exciting and drums up more interest19:39
ShadowJKpetrochemical hydrocarbon polymer19:40
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Corsacand it's pink!19:40
nid0the gizmodos of the world are happy to bitch at having to navigate through a few symbian menus, but all bow down in praise at ios and it's inability to make an alarm clock work when time changes to DST and back.19:40
Corsac(ok, magenta :)19:40
ShadowJKWell, unresponsive interfaces and buttons/widgets you're unsure of whether you hit or missed will kill functionlality too :P19:40
GeneralAntillesHarmattan looks like its smooth and usable in ways Android and iOS can only aspire to.19:41
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SpeedEvilI'm idly wondering at the possibility of a replacement N9 case.19:42
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TermanaWhy would you want a replacement case? You don't mean ones like different colours and patterns and pictures and stuff?19:43
TermanaGet the black one and don't even investigate anything else19:43
Termana:p19:43
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TermanaIf anyone buys cyan or magenta I will LART them19:44
MoonTigerhey guys19:44
wmarone_Termana: I shall by cyan just to spite you!19:44
MoonTigeris is better to use glibjson or jsoc-c for maemo apps?19:44
wmarone_buy*19:45
MoonTigerjson-c even19:45
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nid0tbh, while im clearly going for the black one, the cyan one really doesnt look too terrible19:45
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Termananid0, no. don't. you are not even allowed to encourage people to buy the other colours19:46
Termana:p19:46
nid0im encouraging my girlfriend to get the magenta one19:46
* MoonTiger waits for eveeyone to get over the new devices19:46
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, ping19:46
nid0not that I particularly want her to, but she hates pink anything with a passion and it's really funny winding her up19:47
Termananid0, You. Dun. Goofed.19:47
Termana:p19:47
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: pong19:48
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GeneralAntillesSeriously, is it not just insane to announce something like the N9 then fuck off for 4 weeks of vacation?19:48
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GeneralAntillesThis is the modern global consumer electronics market19:49
TermanaMoonTiger, Repententh that which have come from your mouth!19:49
GeneralAntillesThat's bordering on gross negligence to your shareholders.19:49
* MoonTiger eats soap19:49
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TermanaGeneralAntilles, really, the should have at least given a release date.19:49
Termanathey*19:49
TermanaThen everyone knows when to be hyped up, the blogs know when to start churning some news about it19:50
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DocScrutinizeryou NEVER get release dates19:50
TermanaDocScrutinizer, not from Nokia, no.19:50
DocScrutinizerjust take it19:50
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Termanajust take the release date? Shall I hack their servers?19:51
Termana:p19:51
hnoSeems it's not really the address book that causes my addressbook to crash. Probably something in settings somewhere.19:51
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, almost had a question about making dbus-scripts auto initiate, but that was noted in wiki :). Now to another curious question in mind, I wonder how does one pair two bluetooth phones together without transreciving files? I mean its dead easy to do with headset where audio just goes through but not for example: two N900. I've tried using hcitool cc <bdaddr>, etc but it pairs for only 2 or so seconds before disconnecting19:51
DocScrutinizeryou noticed my rant of this morning, about osborne_effect?19:51
DocScrutinizerand associated freaky stuff19:51
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: sorry, I don't even get the idea19:52
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DocScrutinizerI think I paired my 2 N900 without any problems, just the one of them had a profile missing so no proper sync possible19:54
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DocScrutinizer(PR1.2 issue)19:54
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, for some funny reason when a device is paired with N900 (usually a slave device), N900 doesn't even bother setting up flag "key", not that it would make such a huge deal but I wonder if that's the case with N900 sending/receiving stuff from other devices19:55
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psycho_oreosI mean I can sync and send/receive files between two N900, but I can't just simply have them connected to each other and do nothing :)19:55
DocScrutinizernever looked into it, and never touched hcitool19:55
psycho_oreos*nods*19:56
DocScrutinizerwent absolutely smooth using maemo GUI19:56
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DocScrutinizeriirc19:56
DocScrutinizerit's quite some months since19:56
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: you tried "visible" ?20:00
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psycho_oreosheh I've been constantly tinkering with mine, finding all the unusually missing backend bits and tried to add them in. I personally deem them as nuisances but *shrugs*20:00
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, its not the question of visibility :) I've got it paired for 2-3 seconds whilst visible20:01
psycho_oreosI'm thinking now its most likely something to do with the RFC specifications of bluetooth. That you cannot pair a device without doing anything else, unlike wireless where you can stay connected and do almost nothing20:02
DocScrutinizerI don't get your problem. Pairing is a persistent thing, means exchange of keys was done20:02
ShadowJKbluetooth doesn't ever stay "connected"20:03
DocScrutinizerand heck why should it?20:04
psycho_oreoswhat I'm trying to achieve is a constant state of connection. If I turn on my BH-905 headset, I get the blue bluetooth icon and that remains blue until either I turn off BH-905 or it runs out of power. However, if I tried have another N900 connected to N900, the bluetooth icon will appear as blue for 2-3 seconds before it goes white again (meaning no active connections)20:04
DocScrutinizerif both devices don't send beacons, then how shall they know of each other unless actually doing sth useful?20:05
ShadowJKYou need some sort of activity going on.20:05
psycho_oreosyeah they don't call it "connected" in bluetooth terminology, they call it "paired" or something20:05
psycho_oreoshm20:05
ShadowJKno20:05
DocScrutinizerno, paired is a permanent static state20:05
psycho_oreosahh20:06
psycho_oreosit just defines device as trusted?20:06
MoonTigersoooooo..... no advice on glibjson or json-c as a better choice? :|20:06
ShadowJK"paired" means they have xchanged crypto keys. They can be paired while one is on the moon and other on mars20:06
DocScrutinizer[2011-06-22 19:02:54] <DocScrutinizer> I don't get your problem. Pairing is a persistent thing, means exchange of keys was done20:06
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psycho_oreosok my bad, but I can send stuff to and fro, its just that it'll be annoying having to hack up a few loop scripts between the two so then I can see whats going on and maybe add new stuff to dbus-scripts20:07
psycho_oreosI thought pairing was more than just exchanging, forgive my naiveness :)20:08
ShadowJKif need to have some activity going on. like a pan connection, headset connection, active file transfer or something20:08
psycho_oreosguess I could also try PAN connection, heh one being PAN daemon/host and the other being the client20:09
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: I'm rather sure you're trying to do sth you're not supposed to do that way20:10
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, I don't know just yet until curiousity kills the cat :) for now I'm curious to see if I can add extra layers of security (or false sense thereof) and see if it still works20:11
DocScrutinizerthere are different profiles and it seems you are trying to use an inappropriate profile for sth that's not really working with that20:11
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: BT is considered damn safe20:12
DocScrutinizersecure rather20:12
Venemohey guys20:12
psycho_oreosprobably not as yet :) for now this little "hack" works with my headset20:12
Venemoany news in Maemo land?20:12
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, somewhat :) packets can still be sniffed with certain CSR chipset, and then I recall of that old MiTM attack on bluetooth where one was able to listen to another person's phone calls20:13
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psycho_oreosI guess paranoia got the better of me at this point :)20:13
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: sorry, I can't help with that amount of missing info20:13
fralsDocScrutinizer: i didnt admit to any such thing ;-) i admitted i was hired for MMS ;)20:13
DocScrutinizerfrals: ok ok20:14
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, the missing extra part of when bluetooth headset for example is paired with N900? or just bluetooth security? :)20:14
fralsDocScrutinizer: just to make sure none gives me credit for something i didnt do :)20:14
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DocScrutinizerfrals: whatever, I'd be kinda strange when Nokia hires you for MMS and nevertheless doesn't support MMS in next major release20:16
DocScrutinizerit'd*20:16
fralsDocScrutinizer: yeah ;)20:16
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DocScrutinizerwas just referring to your "...then maybe I've done my bit" OWTTE20:17
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DocScrutinizermight have gotten that wrong20:18
psycho_oreosthanks for the input DocScrutinizer ; ShadowJK :) going to look more into it probably on weekend before writing it to my blog20:18
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: check the profiles and their properties and usecases20:18
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DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: also reading up some wikipedia bits sometimes really helps20:19
DocScrutinizeriirc the BT article wasn't bad20:19
ShadowJKif you have a loop AND involved you're probably going to kill the standby battery life from 10 days to 10 hours ;p20:20
ShadowJKor worse20:20
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, at this point in time I'm thinking its not to do with profiles in particular, its something that wasn't set by default with N900 or maemo or even linux. My knowledge of bluetooth isn't that broad but at this point in time I'm going to go by something that Nokia didn't bother to implement20:20
DocScrutinizertoo fuzzy for me20:21
DocScrutinizergood luck anyway20:21
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psycho_oreosShadowJK, going to leave them charged (i.e. hooked up to power point) and hoping that I'm quick enough to get to the bottom of the situation before I kill off battery power. If anything it'll be the targeted device which would be my older N900 :)20:22
fralsDocScrutinizer: it was to the software in general, shouldve clarified :)20:22
fralsi shouldve*20:23
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, thanks :)20:23
lcukfrals, fmms_h has been tested I hope !20:23
fralslcuk: or maybe hMMS? ;)20:25
lcuk;)20:25
fralslcuk: sadly no, i dont consider it needed for harmattan... hopefully i can put it on MeeGo N900 CE during my (short) vacation :)20:25
lcukfrals, the principles of fmms are needed on all devices20:26
frals(no GeneralAntilles, my vacation probably won't be until the device is shipping so no worries ;))20:26
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RST38hhttp://gizmodo.com/5814394/army-gets-how+to-guide-for-zombie-invasion20:30
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GeneralAntillesfrals, yes, but that just means we'll have working MMS.20:33
GeneralAntillesWhat about the REST of it? :P20:33
fralsGeneralAntilles: ;)20:34
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DocScrutinizerthe REST?20:38
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GAN900DocScrutinizer, i.e., everything else needed to get from "Irritating tease" to "Device in my hands".20:51
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DocScrutinizerI admit I'm in love with N950, since that youtube clip. Might change when actually using that friggin capacitive touchscreen20:59
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, you gonna apply for one?21:00
GeneralAntillesPlatform stuff isn't a priority, I guess.21:00
GeneralAntillesBut still.21:00
DocScrutinizerI simply can't figure how you'd possibly highlight text in a shell or whatever, to c&p. Just for instance21:00
GeneralAntillesIt's a pain21:01
GeneralAntillesDoable21:01
GeneralAntillesbut a poin.21:01
GeneralAntillespain*21:01
DocScrutinizerkonttori suggested I should apply, he might try to make it happen21:01
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GeneralAntillesqgil and Texrat are also involved in the selections (community-side, anyway)21:02
DocScrutinizerseems he thought it could help when I have a look at it21:03
GeneralAntillesHope so.21:04
SpeedEvilI've tried for the community cohesion, and documentation side. As well as the webproxy thing I've been going on about21:04
SpeedEvilIt would be cool if that was irrelevant, and the S40 server protocol were available.21:05
SpeedEvil(for web compression)21:05
DocScrutinizerduh, they got an own protocol there?21:05
SpeedEvilI assume so.21:05
DocScrutinizersybian S40?21:06
SpeedEvilI'm not aware of any open compressing proxy.21:06
SpeedEvilyes21:06
SpeedEvilIt was in the speech before the important one.21:06
DocScrutinizermhm21:06
DocScrutinizerwho's hosting that?21:06
SpeedEvil'cloud services' which reduce the data going to the phone by 90%21:06
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SpeedEvilGood question, it could be nokia, or in principle the carriers.21:07
SpeedEvilIf it's the carriers, it lets them do interesting things like put in place governmental firewalls, which could be useful for some markets21:07
DocScrutinizeryeah, no matter what it's kinda meh for me. Also my data volume doesn't need such compression really21:07
petteridoes n9 have termial app. Looking at the package list at least it seems that osso-xterm has been removed?21:08
DocScrutinizerMUHAHAHA21:08
DocScrutinizer""it's not a computer, it's an iPhone-me-too""21:08
Choomisn't osso-xterm a gtk app?21:09
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petterii don't know21:09
DocScrutinizeryes, think so21:09
DocScrutinizerhonestly, what's been the first thing you've shown to your best friends when you got the N900? Right, xterm... "now can you do THIS on *your* smartphone?"21:11
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: I was on 3G only for a few days - it's hard to browse for an hour and not hit >10M21:11
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Stskeepshmm.21:11
* SpeedEvil tries to recall.21:11
cloudyLightsDocScrutinizer: the xterm doesnt impress my SO21:11
Stskeepsi wonder if we actually have cpufreq/dvfs on modern kernels for n8x021:11
SpeedEvilActually - I think it was live updating webpages in the task manager21:11
cloudyLightsbut an app I can write DOES21:11
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ChoomDocScrutinizer: any jailbroken iphone can do that21:13
monoidwant to buy: N95021:13
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DocScrutinizercloudyLights: you can write apps for android, iPhone, even symbian - if you *can*21:13
cloudyLightsnot ON the device during the way to work....21:13
Choombut... most people don't give a crap about the terminal21:13
ChoomI only use it for IRC21:14
DocScrutinizerChoom: yep, and my wristwatch can do that as well21:14
Choomso long as there's ssh, I'm served21:14
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Choomit's only a phone...21:15
monoid(it's only a model)21:15
cloudyLightsfor my boss I only need openvpna and ssh and a keyboard21:15
monoidcamelot!21:15
DocScrutinizergo get your "phone" somewhere else21:15
cloudyLightsbut I like python,hildon and gtk21:15
DocScrutinizerChoom: N900-> "it's NOT a phone, it's a NIT computer"21:15
Choomstill I hope it comes with a terminal21:16
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Choomand multitouch text selection21:16
alteregoHello ladies21:17
DocScrutinizerChoom: it won't - to satisfy those who say "it's just a phone"21:17
alteregoI thought I'd come in here and see how much of the N9 news you're getting :)21:17
DocScrutinizerhaha21:17
alteregos/news/flack-from-lusers/ ;)21:18
alteregoI actually didn't mean to stick the 'l' in there O_O21:18
Choomif it doesn't, someone will certainly port one21:18
DocScrutinizerlusers like those who still think kbd is a great idea?21:18
alteregoI don't care, I've got a Bluetooth compact keyboard.21:18
alteregoI'm more miffed it doesn't have a stand :P21:18
monoidstands are out21:19
monoidbut you can make one21:19
alteregotmo certainly has an abundance of retarded topics at the moment.21:19
DocScrutinizerwell, N9 isn't on *my* wishlist for next xmass at least21:20
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alteregoI don't care, I've got a Bluetooth compact keyboard.I want it, but I probably wont pay for one, so meh :)21:21
monoidDocScrutinizer: is n950?21:21
DocScrutinizernot really21:21
alteregoWhat does it lack that you'd like Doc?21:21
DocScrutinizerthough I love the design21:21
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alteregoI'm gonna get it, just because it's a prettier looking N900 ;)21:22
DocScrutinizeralterego: quite probably a way to highlight text in arbitrary apps, for c&p, to start with21:22
alteregoThe only downgrade as far as the N900 is concerned is the lack of micro sd really.21:22
alteregoAnd stand I guess.21:22
monoidengadget likes meego / n9 http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/editorial-dear-nokia-you-cannot-be-serious/21:22
DocScrutinizerlack of any storage media slot actually another point21:22
DocScrutinizermajor fail21:22
monoidwhaa21:23
alteregoYeah, it sort of removes the possibility of _any_ hardware mods outside of USB host interface.21:23
monoidi guess 64GB is enough tho21:23
DocScrutinizerusb host interface also flawed, ruling by N95021:23
* monoid imagines how insane that would have sounded in 198721:23
alteregoIt's not the storage, it's the ability to backup data on something that is less likely to die21:23
monoidyeah scp over wifi isn't too fast21:24
alteregoWith micro sd, it's easier to backup & restore data between devices.21:24
alteregoIT's not that, if your device fails ..21:24
DocScrutinizermonoid: enough for what? sure enough to backup your holiday shots from your real cam, but wait.... how to do that?21:24
monoiddoes n950 have microsd slot?21:24
alteregoI do weekly backups onto microsd.21:24
alteregomonoid: no, neither do.21:24
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DocScrutinizermonoid: nope21:24
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alteregoAnyway, so now my backups will have to be done over the could.21:24
SpeedEvilIf it can be convinced to do USB host - ...21:24
alterego~cloud21:24
Guest36683extra, extra, read all about it, cloud is an experienced Zaurus user21:25
monoid~alterego21:25
Guest36683rumour has it, alterego is a nice person who is always ready to help with all kinds of weird stuff. he can also answer any Qt-related question21:25
alteregoSpeedEvil: I've heard it should work with USB host easier than the N90021:25
SpeedEvilhmm21:25
alteregoSo much so, I think we plan on supporting it in N900 CE21:25
RST38hOMG Engadget is positive about damn Harmattan21:25
alteregoThat is why I know about this ;)21:25
RST38hHell froze.21:25
alteregoRST38h: yes, very positive.21:25
RST38hToads flew.21:26
alteregoThe BBC article and The Register were all "End-of-the-world" scenarious.21:26
alterego~scenarios21:26
monoidwhat does that mean21:26
alteregoIT means they were spreading FUD about MeeGo being a dead end OS21:26
alteregoThe usual crap, that no one really knows.21:27
DocScrutinizeralterego: a) docs say N950 and N900 are identical. b) N950 evidently has a micro-B receptacle that's per definition not capable to do OTG hostmode21:27
alteregoPeople should really have learned not to expect or even guess at what Nokia will do or wont do.21:27
alteregoDocScrutinizer: interesting, which docs?21:27
alteregoHave the N950 schematics been leaked?21:27
fralsi guess something should show up on fcc soonish?21:28
DocScrutinizerheh?21:28
SpeedEvilHR video showing the connector I think21:28
DocScrutinizeralterego: why do you think I need any schematics for the prev statement?21:28
alteregoDocScrutinizer: how else would you know this?21:28
DocScrutinizerknow what?21:28
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DocScrutinizerhttp://www.developer.nokia.com/dp?uri=http://sw.nokia.com/id/3744886f-69c1-4544-8ad3-72b352b4a832/Nokia_N950_OneClickFlashers_Release_Notes  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U8jH_apD2k21:29
DocScrutinizeris all I need to tell you that N9 probably isn't designed to do hostmode21:30
DocScrutinizeror, if it is, the already messed it up again21:31
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DocScrutinizerthey21:31
alteregom'hmm, and your reasoning? May I ask?21:31
monoidhmm n900 is still a darn fine device21:31
DocScrutinizeralterego: can you please read my last 3 posts21:31
DocScrutinizerand [2011-06-22 20:27:15] <DocScrutinizer> alterego: a) docs say N950 and N900 are identical. b) N950 evidently has a micro-B receptacle that's per definition not capable to do OTG hostmode21:32
DocScrutinizererr N950 and N9 obviously21:32
DocScrutinizerfriggin numbering21:32
alteregoYour last three statements require me to read through a massive document and watch a video, and even then, I don't know what you know.21:33
alteregoYou know I'm not a hardware person :P21:33
DocScrutinizerthe 'massive document' lists hw diffs between N9 and N950 - no USB mentioned. The video shows N950 with micro-B-USB21:34
alteregoAh, okay.21:34
DocScrutinizernow what else need you of my precious knowledge? :-)21:34
loft306release notes on the 950 sound like my 900 somedays21:34
alteregoWell, firstly I wouldn't take the dfact it's not mentioning anything about the USB :P21:34
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DocScrutinizerok, what's your rationeale then, except "I heard..."21:36
DocScrutinizerI'm just listing up indications21:36
alteregoI heard from Nokia employees about a strategy they were saying they wanted to emply in MeeGo Community Edition21:37
SpeedEvilhttp://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/05/nokia-n950-n9-meego-device-step-closer-release/21:37
alteregoI don't see why the connector really matters?21:37
GeneralAntillesPenTile OLED21:37
GeneralAntillesKill me.21:37
SpeedEviln950 hinge details.21:37
SpeedEvilThat... Does not look very robust.21:37
DocScrutinizerwell, then you probably are on same page with Nokia21:37
monoid what is bad about pentile oled GeneralAntilles ?21:37
GeneralAntillesmonoid, it screws up small details.21:38
GeneralAntillesLike 1-pixel lines21:38
GeneralAntillesand small text21:38
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MohammadAGalterego, if I'm not mistaken, the N900's USB port lacks the ID pin21:38
GeneralAntillesYou end up losing usable PPI.21:38
monoidit is not a rectangular array?21:38
MohammadAGwhich is needed for OTG21:38
alteregoGeneralAntilles: is this because it lacks anyway of knowing when something is plugged in to automatically enumerate?21:38
alteregoMohammadAG: we're not talking about OTG :P21:38
MohammadAGso if it's the same port on the N9, we can have a hacked hostmode, but not OTG21:38
alteregoMohammadAG: that is what we're talking about.21:38
GeneralAntilleshttp://www.allaboutmeego.com/gallery/item/Nokia_N9_hands-on_gallery.php21:39
GeneralAntillesLook at the GPS closeup.21:39
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: not really, the receptacle has the ID pin and it's also connected. alas to the wrong chip21:39
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, so wait, with some HW mods we could have OTG?21:39
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DocScrutinizerin theory yes21:39
alteregoDocScrutinizer: so it's been inside for 1:35 minutes? :P21:39
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: you mean the fake 3D thing?21:40
DocScrutinizerpractically that's a really nasty hw mod21:40
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, no, the messed up subpixel arrangement.21:40
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: oh21:40
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: Closups of dislays can be bogus due to moirre21:40
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: haha, you found our about how OLED counts pixel?21:41
GeneralAntillesI've yet to see an OLED display that doesn't look like shit in this area.21:41
DocScrutinizerout*21:41
SpeedEvilN950 is LCD21:41
GeneralAntillesWell, I'm probably not getting one of those.21:41
DocScrutinizeryup, hooray for that21:41
monoidthe lines look jittery21:41
DocScrutinizerAMOLED is a shiny fake21:41
monoidwell it has enough resolution anyway21:42
alteregoAMOLEDS were very short lived in the tech press weren't they.21:42
alteregoI remember a year or two ago it's all people were talking about "Is it AMOLED?!?!?! IS IT AMOLED?!?!?"21:42
alteregoAnd now they're like "I hope it's not AMOLED!"21:42
DocScrutinizerwears out (ghost shadows burning in), it's too dim in bright light, and it has that weird way they tell you R G B are 3 pixels21:42
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DocScrutinizeralso amoled usualy not guaranteed to last longer than maybe 2 years21:44
DocScrutinizeroxidation problems mainly21:44
kerioamoled is horrible21:44
kerioso... why is every stupid mobile blog writing about how better the n9 is to the n950?21:44
fralsprobably because amoled looks so much better than lcd21:45
keriooh really21:45
fralsyes, really :p21:45
kerioPIXELS21:45
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DocScrutinizerbecause the have seen neither of the both21:45
kerioI WANT FULL OF THEM21:45
alteregoMeh, I don't care, it's not like I'm going to pay for one ..21:45
frals*looks at n9* *looks at n950*21:45
kerioalterego: i want to pay for a n950 :(21:45
fralsye, n9 screen looks better to me :p21:45
keriobetter for what21:45
GeneralAntillesBetter black levels21:46
nid0as in "not worse"?21:46
kerioi want my computers to have proper pixels21:46
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DocScrutinizerfrals: go out into the bright daylight you cave amphibian21:46
* GeneralAntilles too21:46
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, hypocrite. :P21:46
DocScrutinizerthat will change your mnd21:46
alteregoHahah21:46
GeneralAntillesHey-ho, javispedro.21:46
fralsDocScrutinizer: was using it from ~15-19 straight in the sun, it worked ;)21:46
kerioi thought the proper term was "basement dweller"21:46
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fralsnot the n950 thou21:47
GeneralAntilleskerio, frals is special. ;)21:47
keriono basement?21:47
alteregoI also need to decide what to do with my three N900s, do I keep them, do I sell them.21:47
javispedrohello21:47
DocScrutinizerfrals: nice, I like to hear hw success stories21:47
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fralsi live in Finland, its almost always dark here, regardless if you are in a basement or not :P21:47
DocScrutinizerseems they picked a particularly good one then for N921:47
kerioanyway, it's clear that nokia should've just dropped the n9 and made only n950s21:48
fralsDocScrutinizer: this is all my personal opinion, of course. but side by side i pick n9 display anyday21:48
GeneralAntillesThey should've made both.21:48
nid0idd.21:48
GeneralAntillesThere's a market for both.21:48
SpeedEvilfrals: How is small text on the n900?21:48
SpeedEvilerr21:48
SpeedEviln921:48
SpeedEviln9-0021:48
SpeedEvil:)21:48
SpeedEvilOr detailed graphics21:49
fralsdefine small? :)21:49
kerionot really, if i were to choose i'd choose the n950 every time21:49
DocScrutinizerisn't that a pain, could they call it frooble instead of N9-00?21:49
SpeedEvil80*25 courier of course. :)21:49
fralsgive me a link to something i can check on the device ;)21:49
monoiddid you overclock alterego ?21:49
keriofrals: 1-pixel checkerboard, black and white21:50
SpeedEvilfrals: Does it have swype? Does it work?21:50
MohammadAGask any wom... nvm, bad joke21:50
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, does EE include CS?21:50
monoidvery sad so few n950s to go to devs21:50
SpeedEvilfrals: Oh - yes - can it be overclocked. :)21:50
GeneralAntillesMohammadAG, no.21:50
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: nope21:50
SpeedEvil1GHz singlecore is too slow! :)21:50
fralskerio: link a pic and ill look at it, but since the UX guidelines recommended not to use single pixel lines i assume thats the weakness of the display21:51
keriono shit, it's amoled21:51
fralsSpeedEvil: dunno, does it list swype on specifications? re overclocking -- no clue21:51
DocScrutinizermonoid: useless reasoning - devs actually should develop on the device the plan as target platform21:52
fralskerio: do you regularly have to watch 1x1px checkers on your phone? then you should probably look for something else ;)21:52
SpeedEvilfrals: There was a video showing swype configurations21:52
monoidDocScrutinizer: are the internals the same?21:52
SpeedEvilIndeed.21:52
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nid0frals: several sites listing the bundled apps list swype as included21:52
DocScrutinizeryes21:52
keriofrals: plenty of DEs use single-pixel lines for stuff21:52
SpeedEvil1*1 pixel is fairly irrelevant - if your eyes cannot reasonably resolve 1 pixel.21:52
kerioxfce, lxde21:52
fralsSpeedEvil: dunno tbh, im using swedish input and never seen swype support that21:52
SpeedEvilHow would you compare the MMS support? :)21:53
javisn900gimme graffiti over any kind of vkb everyday21:53
javisn900ohnoes, capacitive screen21:53
fralsSpeedEvil: bah, thats unfair. ;)21:53
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SpeedEvilI could never hit 15wpm using grafiti21:53
SpeedEvilI can hit 35 on n900 keyb21:54
javisn900speedevil: graffiti vs hw keyb is not fair21:54
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javisn900I said vkb21:54
SpeedEviljavisn900: No, it's not.21:54
SpeedEviljavisn900: I care really quite little for fairness.21:54
DocScrutinizeryou're not halping in bashing N9 though ;-P21:55
SpeedEvilOn balance - I really hope n9 sells, and will make efforts to make it sell.21:56
SpeedEvilAs I think it's one of the possible hopes for the future of a series of more open phones.21:56
SpeedEvilPart of this is saying why I think it sucks, and then trying to think of ways tound the suckage.21:56
DocScrutinizerack21:56
javisn900indoctrination complete!21:56
* GeneralAntilles was faster on N800 than N900.21:57
mtnbkrone feature that appears to be missing from N9 - a feature I LoOVE - is the FM xmitter. :(21:57
DocScrutinizerooh, we got brainwash day in this chan, since almost 24h21:57
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer: SUBMIT!21:57
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DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: ??21:58
DocScrutinizersubmit what?21:58
GeneralAntillesThe last best hope for FOSS in mobile devices, DocScrutinizer. You must SUBMIT!21:58
GeneralAntilles(to the will of the MeeGo)21:58
javisn900generalantilles: much better kb! also, n950's might be the best keyb ever from the looks of it21:59
DocScrutinizerhaha21:59
javisn900I like the size at least21:59
javisn900waiting to grasp the touch!21:59
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javisn900if we ever get one that is!21:59
monoiddoes the n950 have soft push keys or clicky keys?21:59
monoidmaybe palm will make a landscape webos device22:00
DocScrutinizergood question!22:00
monoidi prefer clicky22:00
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DocScrutinizerI think everybody does22:01
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DocScrutinizerexcept that weird fool that just stops posting his answer ;-D22:01
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javisn900we are really going to hate the coming days if there really is n950 scarcity22:01
javisn900because there are way more applicants now, and way less devices22:03
monoidit is sad22:03
monoidthey have the production line and everything, they invest into22:03
javisn900and I do not exactly fondly remember the days when for ex. wazd didn't have one22:03
monoidand then somebody (elop?) decide "no you may not have this"22:03
DocScrutinizerNokia should start to sell N950 "as seen, no warranty"22:04
monoidyes, or without an OS installed22:04
javisn900docscrutinizer: you think they can? in europe?22:04
DocScrutinizerI think they can22:04
javisn900OM guys shall know =)22:04
monoidor lease them22:04
DocScrutinizerjust properly declare the goods22:05
DocScrutinizerjavisn900: ouch22:05
javisn900they went thru the hops I guess22:05
DocScrutinizerjavisn900: actually we had no problems at all22:05
monoidbut if they did not ship with an installed OS, then you eliminate the 'useless consumers' and get only 'community members'22:05
monoidi think my idea deserves consideration :)22:06
DocScrutinizerdevices shipped off china, wit a 14day DOA warranty, plus 1/10 spare for resellers to handle repairs22:06
javisn900submit it to the novel prize comitee22:06
javisn900docscrutinizer: heh.22:07
monoidgood plan DocScrutinizer22:07
javisn900*nobel :P22:07
DocScrutinizerlol22:07
DocScrutinizerI was amazed it worked22:08
* alterego wonders where af-sb-init is ..22:08
alteregoHave they changed the name of the startup script in harmattan?22:08
fralsmeego-<tab>22:08
alteregomeego-run?22:09
fralsnothing else?22:09
* DocScrutinizer wonders WHAT af-sb-init is22:09
MoonTigerDocScrutinizer, pain22:09
DocScrutinizersounds like, yes22:09
DocScrutinizercan't make a story out of af22:10
fralsapplication framework?22:10
DocScrutinizerfoind out it's probably not autofocus22:11
alteregomeego-sb-session ah22:11
monoidnew eu law, websites may not place cookies without opt-in22:11
DocScrutinizerYEAH!!!22:11
DocScrutinizer~lart cookies22:11
* Guest36683 rm -rf's cookies22:11
DocScrutinizerinfobot: grow a brain!22:12
loft306  /me eats the cookies22:12
loft306crap22:12
monoidcookies are useful for sites to analyze their traffic and popularity22:12
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loft306heh22:13
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monoidamazon.de has 1 N900 left22:15
MoonTigerso.... the N9 won't be using .deb files anymore?22:15
DocScrutinizercookies are the pest that ruins my ESC key22:15
Sc0rpiusthe N950 is a N9 with physical keyboard?22:15
GeneralAntillesSc0rpius, sort of.22:15
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GeneralAntillesNo NFC22:15
Sc0rpiusare there other differences?22:15
GeneralAntillesTFT instead of OLED22:15
SpeedEvilAnd LCD and a flat screen22:15
GeneralAntillesBT 2.1 not 4.022:16
Sc0rpiusso N950 is NOT multitouch, but the N9 is?22:16
GeneralAntillesIt's capacitive.22:16
DocScrutinizererr a flat screen?22:16
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DocScrutinizerSc0rpius: actually it seems like22:16
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MohammadAGwtf22:16
monoidqwerty N900 535 euro @ amazon.de22:16
DocScrutinizerwhich is a real LOL22:17
Sc0rpiusI *need* physical keyboard22:17
Sc0rpiusso N9 so far is not an option for me22:17
MohammadAGdo they devs want to develop for the N9 or the N950?22:17
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you imply N9 has no flat screen?22:17
MoonTigerseems they are so different that one cannot be a dev device for the other22:17
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MohammadAGexactly22:17
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Lots have been said about the curved gorrilla-glas I thought.22:17
MohammadAGNFC is something I can code based on theoritcal shit22:18
MohammadAGbut multitouch? cmon22:18
MoonTigeri think the n950 is a left over batch of obsolete devices they are trying to get rid of22:18
* DocScrutinizer shrugs22:18
MohammadAGhas anyone confirmed the N9 dev kit is an N950? I'm starting to think it's an N8 :P22:18
GeneralAntilleshttp://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/nokia-n9-to-ship-in-sweden-on-september-23rd-saith-awkwardly-tr/22:18
DocScrutinizerMoonTiger: Nokia doesn't need to "get rid of devices"22:19
GeneralAntillesSo that means we'll see it in the US sometime in the middle of 201222:19
MoonTigerlike N900 -> N950 is so obviously a next gen naming that it's silly they are trying to paint it something else22:19
monoidi think many n900 owners would like a n95022:19
Sc0rpiusif there's no multitouch + physical keyboard, there won't be an upgrade for me and I'll stick with my N90022:19
MoonTigermonoid, yes of course but not as a dev device for n(22:19
MoonTigerN922:19
javisn900~ping22:20
Guest36683~pong22:20
monoidit must have multitouch22:20
Sc0rpiusyup22:20
javisn900#1 test22:20
fralsSc0rpius: what do you base no multitouch on?22:20
Sc0rpiusdunno, just wondering22:20
ruskiehttp://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/AVM-FritzBox-vs-Cybits-in-GPL-case/?kc=rss22:20
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SpeedEvilfrals: Don't you go interjecting your facts into a perfectly good argument! :)22:20
Sc0rpiusN950 seems like the perfect phone22:20
javisn900we have had too many stupid bots on this channel as of lately22:20
fralsSpeedEvil: ye, so typical me, i better stop :( ;)22:20
monoidSc0rpius: missing microsd, apparently22:20
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Sc0rpiusthat would be absurd22:21
Sc0rpiusthough N9 will have 64 GB? I can live without microSD there22:21
SpeedEvilI have real doubts as to the hinge.22:21
SpeedEvilBut - hard to tell from pictures.22:21
DocScrutinizerooops actually frals is completely right22:22
luke-jrSc0rpius: I read N9 has 16 GB -.-22:22
DocScrutinizerthe c-ts is same on both22:22
SpeedEvilIn many ways it would make sense to use the n900 as a dev platform22:22
alteregoThe N9 comes in two flavours, the 16G and t he 64G22:22
fralsInternal memory: 16 GB or 64 GB from http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/devices/nokia-n9/specifications22:22
SpeedEvilHarmattan on n900 would make sense from a dev perspective.22:23
javisn900it comes in gorilla desert falvor also22:23
SpeedEvilNot the least being many devs already have it22:23
Sc0rpius16GB is a joke22:23
alteregoA joke at half the price/22:23
alterego?22:23
Sc0rpius:S22:23
alteregowhoops ..22:23
DocScrutinizeralterego: half the price of what?22:24
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Sc0rpiusanyway the N9 looks cool but without physical keyboard is not an option for me22:24
javisn900speedevil:22:24
RST38hSoooo, anything new, while I have been praying to the Tentacled One?22:24
javisn900not many devs have harmattan on n90022:25
javisn900meego maybe, harmattan. ..22:25
JaffaSpeedEvil: Harmattan on N900 would probably suffer from the RAM requirement. And slightly different screen size remember22:25
alteregoI'm not fussed, I'll have an N950, maybe two, and I'll probably have an N922:25
JaffaRST38h: No22:25
RST38hSc0rpius, Doc, alterego: Deep down there, you know you will buy N9 no matter what22:25
alteregoI've also still got N900s, so ..22:25
alteregoRST38h: I've never said I wouldn't :P22:25
Sc0rpius:'(22:25
alteregoOh wait, no, I'm not going to _buy_ one ;)22:25
javisn900no one will have a n95022:25
SpeedEvilJaffa: yes, it would suffer somewhat - I question if discipline on devs to keep memory and CPU use down is a bad thing though.22:25
DocScrutinizerRST38h: yes, and 5 for you22:25
MoonTigerdoes the N9 have a user replaceable battery?22:25
alteregoBut sure, I'll have one ;)22:25
SpeedEvilMoonTiger: no.22:26
Sc0rpiushow can I do my heavy SSH at they gym without physical keyboard? it's just impossible.22:26
* MoonTiger sighs22:26
Sc0rpius:'(22:26
JaffaSc0rpius: Skip the gym22:26
Sc0rpiusheh no way22:26
MoonTigeri think i'll stay with the N900 for now22:26
RST38hSc0rpius:By bringing both N9 and N900?22:26
alteregoSc0rpius: external Bluetooth keyboard :P22:26
alteregoOr keep an N900 for that ..22:26
kerioalright, from now on i'm bringing my laptop with me instead of my phone22:26
Sc0rpiusso far I'm keeping my N90022:26
kerioapparently it's the only fucking way to get something that works as i want22:26
javisn900if you're using the n900 keyboard for ssh you're insane either way22:26
Sc0rpiusheh kerio22:26
keriofucking elop22:26
JaffaN900 with Bluemaemo22:26
keriojavisn900: why is that?22:26
alteregoSure, I'm keeping my N900/s and I'll probably use N9 as primary and N950 for MeeGo dev.22:26
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: MoonTiger I heard yes22:26
Jaffajavisn900: Nah, s'good22:26
kerioit works great22:26
alteregoSimples.22:26
Sc0rpiusI can type really fast in the N90022:27
MoonTigerDocScrutinizer, ok cool if so22:27
DocScrutinizeryou unscrew and throw away the screws of back cover22:27
MoonTigerso i'm getting the idea that dev work is better in Qt these days then22:27
Sc0rpiusand I destroyed already the original N900 keyboard and I have a replacement now installed on it22:27
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Oh - I meant 'user' replacable.22:27
DocScrutinizererr, no back22:27
monoidSc0rpius: did you wear through the keyboard?22:27
obcecadoi think ill be using n900 till a decent device comes out22:27
Sc0rpiusyeah completely22:27
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: As in something usrs are encouraged to do.22:27
monoidsame here :D22:27
DocScrutinizernope22:27
Sc0rpiusit started to peel away22:27
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keriojavisn900: no really what's wrong with the n900 kbd for ssh?22:28
alteregoMy only care is, "Will it blend" ..22:28
monoidit's surprisingly good for 3 rows22:28
Sc0rpiusand then no key could be read, I didn't care at first but when I tried to input a symbol I didn't know what to press22:28
DocScrutinizer""after 3 days you learn how to open it""22:28
alteregoIf it blends, then I'm not gonna get one .22:28
Sc0rpiusso I bought a chinese keyboard replacement from eBay I think DocScrutinizer helped me with the link22:28
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Sc0rpiusfor like $1.9922:28
DocScrutinizer""after a month you swap batteries in the dark""22:28
kerioalterego: the n950 is made of aluminium!22:28
Sc0rpiusit's very ugly (the chinese keyboard replacement) but at least is complete22:28
MoonTigerSc0rpius, can u give me the link?22:29
alteregokerio: the iPhone 4 was maqde out of steel and gorilla glass  :P22:29
obcecadoand how is the quality of that keyb replacement ?22:29
MohammadAG<Sc0rpius> I can type really fast in the N90022:29
Sc0rpiusyup I can :)22:29
MohammadAG70 WPM here22:29
Sc0rpiusin the N900?22:29
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MohammadAGbut I can get 40-50 on the iPhone :p22:29
javisn900kerio: missing keys22:30
Sc0rpiuswow I haven't measured but I can do 110 WPM in the desktop keyboard22:30
monoida minute has 60 seconds22:30
MoonTigeroh f**k!! does it still have Modest as the email client?22:30
keriojavisn900: huh?22:30
keriowhat keys?22:30
* kerio checks his n90022:30
JaffaMoonTiger: No22:30
kerionope, all still there22:30
javisn900kerio: specially when compared to n8x0.22:30
MoonTigerJaffa, heh thank god22:30
Sc0rpiusMoonTiger: just look for N900 keyboard on eBay22:31
javisn900kerio: tab, pipe, pagup, pagdown, del, esc, scrll lock22:31
kerioyou mean fn+backspace, shift+fn+g, shift+fn+up, shift+fn+down, shift+backspace, shift+fn+backspace22:31
kerioi don't have scroll lock though22:32
javisn900you use emacs22:32
keriono, i use a keyboard layout i made22:32
javisn900but I use vi, so I can only remember a few keys22:32
kerioit's an x11 layout22:32
kerioapplication-independant22:32
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javisn900I know. my point is that once you start with the weird shortcuts, you lose memory.22:33
DocScrutinizerjavisn900: troll!22:33
javisn900thus you lose speed.22:33
kerioyou... wait, what?22:33
javisn900thus the hwkb is less convenient.22:33
* kerio is baffled22:33
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* DocScrutinizer wipes off the dust from madal "troll of the day"22:34
DocScrutinizermedal*22:34
* javisn900 sighs22:35
DocScrutinizerlol22:35
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RST38hMeanwhile: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/got-a-cute-hostage-huh-wanted-man-updates-facebook-status-during-16hour-standoff-20110622-1ge63.html22:35
DocScrutinizerno vi/emacs wars please!22:35
MoonTigerim guessing the battery isnt replaceable as it isnt listed as a part in the contents section22:36
DocScrutinizeryou need to unscrew something22:36
DocScrutinizereven on N95022:37
MoonTigerthat kinda rules it out for me22:37
DocScrutinizerthere's a lot of things that rule it out for me22:37
MoonTigeryah one of the things i love about my N900 over my touch slab other device is the keyboard22:38
loft306i was told by a nokia guy with one that it is and you gotta take out a few scrons ansd open it up  and that he had done it  already22:39
keriowtf is a scron22:39
* MoonTiger wonders too22:40
loft306screws22:40
DocScrutinizerdarn, third time?22:40
loft306just scrolled up i geuss22:40
DocScrutinizer <DocScrutinizer> you unscrew and throw away the screws of back cover  <DocScrutinizer> ""after 3 days you learn how to open it""  <DocScrutinizer> ""after a month you swap batteries in the dark""22:41
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DocScrutinizer</quote>22:42
loft306that sounds like the 95022:42
DocScrutinizerI made up the "back"22:42
kerioFirst they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you swap batteries in the dark.22:42
keriotrue story22:42
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DocScrutinizerkerio: sounds like the story of your life err wife22:44
loft306the screws on the 9  i asume would be in the sim/usb area under the covers22:44
DocScrutinizerpossibly22:44
alteregobingo22:44
kerioI have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will swap batteries in the dark.22:45
alteregoI mean, maybe :)22:45
loft306as the pic i saw had clips that went too far under the side of the case to pull out at the other end22:45
kerioWar is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is swapping batteries in the dark.22:45
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DocScrutinizerkerio: is this funny? if yes then please check backscroll (only a few hours) to find the right partner for your jokes22:46
loft306https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/u8C39jXauDdajDJGYioFUGwBtj4LaKFthfHhGPQpJDE?feat=directlink DocScrutinizer22:47
VenemoDocScrutinizer, what's your take on da N950?22:47
kerioAnything that can possibly go wrong, swaps batteries in the dark.22:47
Sc0rpiusif N950 is real, I'm up for it22:47
kerioSc0rpius: it's definetely real22:47
kerioit's just not for you22:47
kerio:(22:47
Sc0rpiuswhy not?22:47
Sc0rpiusit has everything I want: physical keyboard, Meego and multitouch22:48
keriobecause it's reserved for devs, and has no warranty22:48
kerioyou can't buy one from nokia22:48
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Sc0rpiuswell but eventually will be released to the public22:48
loft306haha22:48
kerio...no22:48
keriothat's the point22:48
Sc0rpiusNO?!?22:48
MoonTigerno ... just for devs22:49
Sc0rpiusnah Nokia won't be that stupid22:49
MoonTigerlimited numbers available22:49
MoonTigerand a dev device for..... not the N922:49
kerioSc0rpius: remember that elop is guiding it22:49
Sc0rpiuseven if we have to wait a year, they WILL release it22:49
DocScrutinizerNokia hopes to sort out problems with N95022:49
DocScrutinizerthey haven't developed it to bin it22:49
* MoonTiger wonders if the N950 has a wobbly usb port too22:50
loft306haha22:50
DocScrutinizerallegedly not at all22:50
DocScrutinizersomebody who should know meant you'd rather tear off other parts than the USB22:51
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loft306thttp://www.engadget.com/2011/06/22/nokia-n950-pictures-a-gallerys-worth-of-meego-to-tell-the-stor/22:53
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loft306http://www.engadget.com/photos/nokia-n950-press-shots/#424317022:56
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JaffaOh FFS. Yet another "it was the name change from ITT -> TMO which broke the forums" post.23:05
SpeedEvil:)23:05
GeneralAntillesJaffa, you're just to close to it to see the problem.23:05
SpeedEvilIt was the mass market that broke the forums.23:05
JaffaSpeedEvil: +123:05
* Jaffa did not expect to see this argument crop up in the N9 thread. Admittedly, I shouldn't be surprised.23:06
SpeedEvilIf you want mass market and sane fourms - you generally need actual paid mods.23:06
SpeedEvilWith liberal use of the ban button.23:06
GeneralAntillesYeah, I think the organic self-management approach didn't work well.23:07
SpeedEvilOr the right captchas.23:07
SpeedEvil'Evaluate this C expression, taking proper note of operator precedence'23:07
DocScrutinizerJaffa: isn't it the truth? ;-P  N9 clearly doesn't qualify as NIT23:07
DocScrutinizerso maybe if it were Itt still, we would've see N950 instead N9 for mass market23:09
JaffaIs there a good URL to include on Nokia Care reports about USB port breakage?23:10
DocScrutinizera metric ton23:10
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JaffaDocScrutinizer: http://discussions.nokia.co.uk/t5/Maemo-Devices/Nokia-responds-to-reports-about-the-N900-micro-usb-port-getting/td-p/629019 looks quite good23:10
* SpeedEvil is annoyed he diddn't send his n900 off for repair to fix the slightly dodgy USB port before they ran out of motherboards.23:11
JaffaOh, they've run out of motherboards?23:11
DocScrutinizerhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=54762  http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=547991#post54799123:11
JaffaWell, I look forward to seeing them fix it :-)23:11
JaffaThey can replace it with an N923:11
SpeedEvilJaffa: Someone was in about a week ago, they sent him back an n8 I think23:12
JaffaThat'd do. I've got another N90023:12
JaffaMy brother's "borrowed" my N823:12
DocScrutinizer*yawn*23:12
monoidi compared n8 to n900 camera.  it is an improvement, but n900 is quite good23:13
monoidi wish they had kept the kickstand on n8 though23:14
monoidbut some people @ nokia seem to favor the 'lesss is more' approach23:15
SpeedEvilI like the camera cover.23:15
GeneralAntillesrm_work, ping?23:15
SpeedEvilI t means that I don't have to worry about fingerpirnts23:15
* monoid nods 23:15
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DocScrutinizer"less is more" - another bit to make my permanent deja-vu feel worse23:16
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* DocScrutinizer sees green cards with Laotse rhymes in front of his mental eye23:17
SpeedEvilFreedom is slavery!23:18
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you still got your green card? or you never had one?23:19
* GeneralAntilles applied for an N950 through the community program.23:19
DocScrutinizer\o/23:20
SpeedEvilGood luck!23:20
DocScrutinizerjudging by the press photos Nokia already plans to sell N950 without warranty and strictly for devels.23:20
DocScrutinizerwell, iirc that's been exactly what OM did on Neo 197323:21
SpeedEvilWell - given that it's a loaner - it seems unlikely there would be a warranty.23:21
monoidpeople who have 770s, N810s and N900s should also be able to get N95023:21
SpeedEvil3310 too.23:21
monoidheh23:21
SpeedEvilI want to port snake.23:21
GeneralAntillesGoing for the UI/graphics design, testing and feedback angle.23:22
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: they wouldn't print a box "for devels only" when they would plan to just give out 250 loaners23:22
SpeedEvilOh - I diddn't see the box.23:22
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DocScrutinizerhttp://www.engadget.com/photos/nokia-n950-press-shots/#424316923:23
SpeedEvilCompanies do silly things.23:23
SpeedEvilLook at OM and the webstore development effort.23:23
cehtehi wonder how 'without warranty' works in the EU23:24
SpeedEvilcehteh: If it's a loaner...23:25
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DocScrutinizercehteh: aiui this is mainly about the sw23:25
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Or making comletely fake n900 as a design that doesn't share any parts.23:26
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DocScrutinizeryeah, that's weird for sure23:26
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cehtehcant they mix the n9 and the n950 and release a n9½23:27
javispedroharry potter edition?23:27
cehteh:)23:27
DocScrutinizerwell, for 20k units it may easily pay back23:27
monoidis there anything better about the n9?23:27
cehtehwell i wont buy either .. so doesnt really matter :P23:28
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: and I guess they need several k for all the shops of this world23:28
jacekowskimonoid: bit faster23:28
jacekowskimonoid: more memory23:28
cehtehn9 sleek design, amoled, but keyboard and resistive touchscreen (well the 950 has capacitive too or?)23:28
jacekowskin9 has resistive?23:29
DocScrutinizeryep23:29
DocScrutinizernope23:29
cehtehn9 has capacitative23:29
DocScrutinizerboth have23:29
cehtehguessed so23:29
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cehtehwell and no fm transmitter, no IR ...23:29
DocScrutinizerthere might be fmtx23:29
cehtehyou have to make some compromises for sleek design23:29
cehtehok maybe .. (well is its antenna connected?)23:30
DocScrutinizerIR always been a fake23:30
cehtehit works for 20cm distance :P23:30
DocScrutinizerindeed23:30
cehtehreal ir tranceiver would be nice23:30
* SpeedEvil wonders how many remotes would respond as well to the flash LED pulsed at 48khz23:30
SpeedEvil323:31
DocScrutinizernot even notebook have IR nowadays23:31
cehtehbut the n9 got a compass finally23:31
cehteh(hey where are the gyros now?)23:31
SpeedEvilCompasses were $30 or so when the n900 was designned23:31
SpeedEvilthey are now around $1.523:31
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: the problem: you can't pulse flash that fast23:31
jacekowskiwoot?23:31
cehtehhas the n950 a compass?23:31
jacekowskino fm transmitter?23:31
jacekowskihmm, i really liked that in my n90023:31
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: unless it's on the right sort of GPIO23:32
cehtehjacekowski: not 'official' .. but maybe there is one23:32
javispedroto the schematics!!!23:32
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: unlikely, needs driver chip23:32
javispedrooops... not there yet.23:32
javispedro;P23:32
SpeedEvilyes - driver needs to be able to do it23:32
cehtehnext question: will the n9 be more oben as the n900? hardware wise23:32
SpeedEvilOr hooked to a GPIO23:32
cehtehopen23:32
DocScrutinizeragain unlikely23:33
DocScrutinizerthis is no meego proper after all23:33
* cehteh just hopes his n900 will last some years more23:33
DocScrutinizerat least they seem to have gotten some sort of API for charger23:34
DocScrutinizercehteh: get spare23:34
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cehtehhaha23:34
DocScrutinizerI'm already looking for a 3rd and possibly 4th23:34
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cehtehas soon the n9 is released n900 prices (used ones) should drop :P23:34
monoidoh i dunno23:35
DocScrutinizerI probably don't like those used devices. The users clearly disqualified themselves as not taking much care about the device's value23:36
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Venemoyou can't tell from the exterior whether those careless morons overclocked or not23:36
* Jaffa will have a spare looking for a good home (if repaired by Nokia Care). Don't need two for MeeGo/Maemo dev when it's not me primary phone.23:36
Venemoso you buy used N900 and one day it will just stop working because of them.23:36
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DocScrutinizerVenemo: exactly23:37
Sc0rpiusyeah23:38
DocScrutinizerlike buying car with miles counter reset23:38
Sc0rpiusI never overclocked my device23:38
cehtehVenemo: well i care more about mechanical spare parts23:38
DocScrutinizerhmm, indeed, touchpanel, kbd, etc most important23:39
DocScrutinizeryou possibly could even get a OMAP3430 to swap23:39
DocScrutinizerbut no touchpanel23:39
DocScrutinizeror keymat23:39
cehtehexactly23:39
VenemoI would clap if you could desolder and re-solder the OMAP23:39
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DocScrutinizerhah, you have no idea23:40
cehtehwith the right tricks and equipment23:40
cehteh(i dont have)23:40
cehtehwell baking oven :P23:40
DocScrutinizerfor preheating, yes23:41
cehtehdesolder woudld work :P23:41
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cehtehhow many years will nokia keep spare mainboards around?23:41
MoonTigerhmmmmm the engadget gallery of the N950 does look purdy if those are actual pics23:41
cehtehfrom now on should be 3-5 at least23:41
DocScrutinizerthey're already out of spare23:41
cehtehyes?23:41
cehtehoutch23:42
DocScrutinizeryes23:42
cehtehcrap23:42
jaskasoo, when usb connector breaks they solder it?23:42
DocScrutinizerincredible, unparalleled23:42
cehtehwell next reason for not buying n9 or n95023:42
jaskainstead of just replacing23:42
DocScrutinizerno jaska you get N823:42
cehtehn900 had at least a bit future23:42
jaskahaha23:42
jaskadoc, id take the n8, drop it on the floor and stomp it23:42
DocScrutinizerno haha23:42
DocScrutinizerwe had 2 or 3 reports like that now23:43
MoonTigerthat would suck eggs ... an N8 for a N900??23:43
DocScrutinizerlast 2 weeks23:43
jaskathats like trading my mercedes for a toyota corolla dx23:43
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GeneralAntillesYou know what we really don't need more of?23:43
GeneralAntillesDuopolies23:43
* GeneralAntilles doesn't get internet commenters.23:43
DocScrutinizer~dict duopolies23:44
Guest36683could not find definition for duopolies23:44
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GeneralAntillesLike a monopoly23:44
GeneralAntillesbut with two parties23:44
DocScrutinizeraah23:44
GeneralAntillesAndroid and iOS in this case.23:44
DocScrutinizerlike republicans and err labour?23:45
DocScrutinizer;-P23:45
GeneralAntillesYes, exactly.23:45
jaskademocrats and republicans, right wing and more right wing :)23:45
DocScrutinizeror what's the "other" party called over there?23:46
GeneralAntillesjaska, you've got that backwards. :)23:46
GeneralAntillesOr actually, upside down.23:46
GeneralAntillesRight and left don't actually apply appropriately23:46
DocScrutinizerlol23:46
jaskagen: i meant repubs are more on the right but democrats are still right wing compared to what we have here23:46
GeneralAntillesDemocrats and Republicans are both in favor of telling you what you can and cannot do with your time, money, property, and body.23:47
GeneralAntillesjaska, yes, more people who want to tell you what to do with your time, money, property and body.23:47
monoidnokia forced me to like their products by making great stuff :(23:47
GeneralAntillesPolitics isn't 1 dimensional.23:47
monoidevil maemo people23:47
jaskagen: in one way its 1-dimensional.. they all suck.23:48
jaskabut enough of that :)23:48
GeneralAntillesI agree23:48
DocScrutinizermonoid: even worse they now keep the best stuff for themselves23:48
GeneralAntilles(though I suspect for different reasons)23:48
monoidthink they might raise the number above 250?23:48
DocScrutinizeroh there are some 1000s of them. Reserved for contractors etc23:49
jaskahave to mug a contractor23:50
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hnoThe 250 N950s is for loaners in the Meego community. There is apparently a larger barch for sale to commercial developers.23:58
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monoidsigh23:58
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monoidmaybe i camp in front of HQ in helsinki with a big sign23:59
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