IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2011-06-07

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DocScrutinizerthe_lord: you're pro-user, so I'd expect you to make clear statement of your camera's storage setting (phone/card)00:02
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DocScrutinizerif camera is set up to store to uSD card, there's only so much use in fuzzing with MyDocs00:05
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* javispedro realizes worriedly that I am now a fan of the top global menu bar concept..00:10
RST38hWelcome to Amiga.00:11
yigallol00:11
javispedro:)00:11
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lcuk2javispedro, for touchscreens it is annoying00:18
lcuk2especially dual mode keyboard ones00:19
lcuk2i really want a taskbar on meego netbook00:19
lcuk2alt tabbing hurts my brain with the method it does00:19
javispedroI disagree, on touchscreens that have decent border sensitivity that is00:19
javispedrobeing on any border is virtually an order of magnitude faster...00:20
lcuk2javispedro, location optimised00:20
lcuk2on your lap is one place00:20
lcuk2on a desk still as a foldered out laptop style is another00:20
lcuk2on a wall is another00:20
javispedroexcuuuuuuuuse me for not having a giant touchscreen00:20
lcuk2:P00:20
javispedro;P00:20
lcuk2flat on the table is another00:21
lcuk2which is odd because of lcd quality and viewing angle on some devices00:21
lcuk2I thought of something cool earlier00:21
lcuk2replace the down bit on the stairs with an lcd screen00:21
lcuk2you have to go up and down stairs00:21
lcuk2so you could put calendar there :)00:22
lcuk2"tidy your room"00:22
lcuk2"clean your teeth"00:22
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lcuk2other things needed as the kids walk past ;)00:22
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* javispedro pondersome looks like this if lcuk's already looks like a "crystal spires and togas" house00:27
* javispedro wonders which kind of keystroke could have caused the previous disastrous sentence00:28
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meceAnyone having problems with Qt libs in latest cssu?00:53
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DocScrutinizeranybody ever heard about amixer --abstract basic and the concept behind it?01:05
DocScrutinizerany pointer to docs you could share?01:06
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rm_workwhy, you out of things to scrutinize? :P01:18
* rm_work has not ever heard of whatever that is, unfortunately01:18
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alterego""users can have more than one full screen app running at once, with a swipe gesture to switch between them." oops.... Apple was first"01:26
alteregohaha01:26
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mecealterego, ios5?01:30
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DocScrutinizerrm_you: obviously about ALSA, and some python stuff01:58
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wblazeGonzoTheGreat: thats an awesome nick03:12
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c2pLaYhi all05:23
c2pLaYhave a problem on my nokia n90005:23
c2pLaYdesktop icons keep becoming unresponsive05:23
c2pLaYi've tried killing hildon-desktop05:23
c2pLaYbut of course none of the icons come bakc05:23
cehtehsome software takes all resources?05:24
SpeedEvilDo they appear OK on boot?05:24
c2pLaYand it remains unresponsive after the the process has been reinitiated05:24
cehtehwhat do you have installed and running?05:24
c2pLaYi got all kinds of stuff installed05:24
cehteh(including widget)05:24
c2pLaY3 widgets i think05:24
cehtehwell watch the process list and see if something leaks memory or takes all cpu05:25
c2pLaYthe cpu overclocking one05:25
c2pLaYcalendar05:25
c2pLaYand showip05:25
c2pLaYi have quite a few icons05:25
c2pLaYthis is happening very regularily05:25
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c2pLaYi have flashed it05:25
cehteheither top from a terminal or conky05:25
c2pLaYspeaking of top05:25
c2pLaYis there a way to scroll down with top?05:25
cehtehno05:25
cehtehps aux | less05:25
c2pLaYye05:26
cehteh(dunno if aux works on messybox)05:26
c2pLaYdunno what messybox is05:26
c2pLaYthis is a pretty vanilla setup05:26
cehtehyou can sort top output P for cpu and M for memory05:26
c2pLaYso i shouldn't ahve much running05:26
cehtehbusybox :)05:26
cehtehthe crippled shell it has05:26
c2pLaYim not a super advanced user05:27
cehteh(note: uppercase M and P)05:27
c2pLaYso if there's anything missing in busybox i am unaware05:27
cehtehjust use top05:27
* cehteh just trying, works for me05:28
c2pLaYim not a complete noob tho05:28
c2pLaYi can use ps05:28
cehtehah ps aux works too05:28
c2pLaYi usually just ax05:28
c2pLaYdon't need to see the user usually05:28
cehtehwell you are only interested in the most resource intensive applications05:28
c2pLaYtake up alot of extra room05:28
c2pLaYunless im looking for something user related05:28
Macerx is the most resource intensive05:29
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cehtehtop is quite configureable .. but well this buildin one is a busybox crippled one duh05:29
c2pLaYso yeah05:29
cehtehso kill X :P05:29
cehtehhaha05:29
c2pLaY3 widgets05:29
Macerhahahahaa05:29
c2pLaYheh05:29
Macershell only05:30
c2pLaYcalendar, showip, and cpu05:30
cehtehwell go down the list and see if there is anything unusual within the first 10 entries or so05:30
c2pLaYwidgets05:30
Macersurprised someone hasnt done that yet05:30
c2pLaYwill have a quick look05:30
Macerncurses dialer and what not05:30
c2pLaYhad to reboot05:30
Macer:)05:30
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Maceri love ecoach05:31
Macerfirst time the gps on this n900 has been useful05:31
cehtehhuh ..05:31
Macerconsidering ovimaps05:31
Macer:)05:31
cehtehovimaps sux05:31
Maceri guess geotagging pics05:31
cehtehcloudgps is a nice plaything (but lacks features)05:31
c2pLaYyeah the gps doesn't seem to be very accurate05:31
Maceri know it does05:31
c2pLaYwas kinda wondering about that05:31
cehtehbut monav is damn cool05:31
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Macerovimaps was absolutely horrible05:32
Maceris05:32
Maceri tried it05:32
cehtehc2pLaY: with assisted gps and give it some time to acquire the position its pretty good most of the time05:32
Macergoogle maps is good but requires net05:32
cehtehyes ovimaps is rubbish05:32
cehtehMacer: monav!05:32
Macerrubbish is too kind05:32
cehtehhttp://monav.openstreetmap.de/05:32
Macercehteh: i will try it05:32
Macerovimaps is total shit05:33
Macer:)05:33
c2pLaYso how or where do you configure assisted gps?05:33
cehtehif you dont changed anything, then its on by default05:33
c2pLaYnot familiar with gps all that much05:33
cehtehanyways in settings "position"05:33
c2pLaYyeah and using googlemaps mobile05:33
cehtehthere is googlemaps for the n900? with gps support?05:34
Macergnav is great if you had a sat connextion in your car05:34
Macerhahaha.. no05:34
cehtehi use osm :)05:34
c2pLaYi dunno if its supported05:34
c2pLaYbut it works05:34
Macerand i mean internet sat05:34
cehtehmonav can use offline maps .. vector maps!05:34
c2pLaYjust shows the location wrong05:34
c2pLaYoff by about a mile05:34
Macergnav requires a net connection which is nonexistant in the sticks05:34
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c2pLaYnot sure how accurate its supposed to be05:34
cehtehc2pLaY: give it some time to acquire the position .. can take up to 10 minutes and needs sight to the sky05:35
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Macercehteh: i think the n900 gps isnt too bad as far as accuracy05:35
c2pLaYohic05:35
cehteh(well with assisted gps its much faster)05:35
Jzarectahi is ther a way that I can locate the audio for the camera noise05:35
c2pLaYvery kewl cehteh, i'll have to give that a try05:35
JzarectaI am looking to mute the camera sound 'ringtone'05:35
Maceri was able to track where i was on an airplane by holding it against the window05:35
cehtehbut assisted gps needs internet connection05:35
Jzarectaso first question is where is the camera application05:35
SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Accuracy05:35
cehtehc2pLaY: and dont use ovi maps .. try monav or mappero05:36
SpeedEvilerr05:36
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SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_GPS05:36
SpeedEvilGPS accuracy studies05:36
c2pLaYso yeah05:36
c2pLaYps ax05:36
c2pLaYtheres a whole bunch of crap in there05:36
cehtehwhat is 'dm' ?05:37
c2pLaYmost of which i cannot make sense of05:37
c2pLaYmight have to output to a file and pastebin it05:37
cehtehc2pLaY: hence i saied use top and only look at the topmost things05:37
SpeedEvilcehteh: decimeters05:37
c2pLaYmight ask one of you fine gentlement/women to take a look05:37
cehtehi dont want to sort your pastebin either05:37
c2pLaYheh05:37
c2pLaYkk top it is :P05:37
cehtehSpeedEvil: ah didnt expected that :P .. expected some fancy US unit :)05:37
cehtehSpeedEvil: do you know details of position acqusition?05:38
SpeedEvilcehteh: ?05:38
c2pLaYi have 2 browserd running05:38
c2pLaYseem to be using up quite a bit of memory05:39
SpeedEvilc2pLaY: normal05:39
cehtehlast week on a bike ride it got horribly wong at the end of the ride05:39
SpeedEvilc2pLaY: also - RSS is a lie05:39
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c2pLaYi don't use rss05:39
cehtehposition jumped like crazy05:39
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SpeedEvilc2pLaY: http://www.selenic.com/smem/05:40
SpeedEvilcehteh: If it goes to cell positioning - it can get very inaccurate05:40
cehtehthat was when i was inside a town .. i wonder if it uses wlan in reach for guessing position when gps signals are too weak05:40
SpeedEvilSimilarly multipath can distort it majorly05:40
cehtehyes but it had fine GPS location for some hours05:40
cehtehi wonder why it lost the gps lock05:41
SpeedEvilJammers can be an issue.05:41
DocScrutinizer51cehteh: nope05:41
DocScrutinizer51gps multipath + reflections05:42
SpeedEvilSee the above openstreetmap page05:42
cehtehmhm maybe i should look at the .gpx .. it should record the accurracy for each track point right?05:42
SpeedEvilI wrote something on reflections05:42
cehtehyeah05:42
SpeedEvilcehteh: Some apps don't05:42
cehtehlets see05:42
SpeedEvilEPE you may be looking for.05:43
SpeedEvilOr HDOP05:43
SpeedEvilEven satellite number.05:43
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DocScrutinizer51some are nonsesne, mere calc result from loc and time and efem05:44
DocScrutinizer51not the real precision05:44
cehtehyeah no accuracy05:44
cehtehduh05:44
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cehtehwell i gone over 850 km/h  with my bike :P05:45
cehtehthe cops wont catch me05:45
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cehtehDocScrutinizer: btw i need some educated guess from a EE :)05:46
SpeedEvilAbout what?05:47
SpeedEvilcehteh: I know a hell of a lot about GPS.05:47
SpeedEvilIt doesn't help at all.05:47
SpeedEvilSimply as the implementation is closed.05:47
cehtehi got this bike charger/battery ... soldered the charger cable and it generally works05:47
SpeedEvilAh05:47
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cehtehbut sometimes the n900 reports "cant charge"05:47
cehtehi guess the voltage drops because of a power spike when changing cell or so05:47
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cehtehso the bike charger has a DCDC output 5V regulated05:48
SpeedEvilI think can't charge means it may have had a voltage drop05:48
cehtehcan i put a cap there to buffer spikes? ... maybe a goldcap? or would that be dangerous?05:48
SpeedEvilGoldcap will do almost nothing05:48
SpeedEvilYou want a cap with a reasonably low series resistance05:49
cehtehyes i dont know the resistance of goldcaps ..05:49
DocScrutinizer51not dangerous but no use in it05:49
SpeedEvilquite high - several hundred ohms is typical05:49
cehtehah ok didnt know that05:49
SpeedEvilcehteh: Does it charge properly normally?05:49
cehtehwell on other circruits i put a big elko and a big tantal ..05:50
DocScrutinizer51and you need sth like 1AsV05:50
cehtehyes also stationary on my desk it charges from this battery05:50
SpeedEvilI'd wonder if it was connection issues05:51
cehtehits most likely a voltage drop, i just wonder how i can buffer that05:51
cehtehno wasnt05:51
cehtehconnection is perfect i checked all connections 10 times :)05:51
DocScrutinizer51ignore05:52
cehtehand it restarted charging when i turned the battery off and on05:52
SpeedEvilIf you smack the battery about a little - does it go off?05:52
cehtehno05:52
SpeedEvilCheck the switch05:52
cehtehyes its all ok05:52
cehtehassume its a voltage drop, how can i buffer that?05:52
cehteh(if goldcap doesnt work i would just do my tantal+elko thing)05:53
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DocScrutinizer51ignore05:53
cehtehor can i tell the device to charge at less current somehow?05:53
cehtehDocScrutinizer: impossible05:53
DocScrutinizer51cant buffer05:53
cehtehit somtimes didnt came up charging 20 times in a row .. sometimes worked for 20 minutes05:54
cehtehi must fix this somehow05:54
SpeedEvilcehteh: Do you have a DMM?05:54
cehtehDMM?05:54
cehtehah yes05:54
SpeedEvilI'd start out by seeing if the voltage is on 5V05:54
cehtehwell not here but yes05:54
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cehtehthe battery DCDC can only deliver 850 mA05:55
DocScrutinizer51use ca146-a or a better DC/DC05:56
cehtehthen the voltage drops05:56
SpeedEvil?You05:56
SpeedEvilYou can regulate the charge current with the proper charger script05:56
SpeedEvilI don't think BME can do this05:56
DocScrutinizer51you could use 'jrbme' charger and limit current to less than that05:56
DocScrutinizer51he, SpeedEvil beat me05:57
cehtehsounds like a plan05:57
cehtehbq27200.sh cant display input voltage?05:57
SpeedEvilWell - I diddn't write anything distributable05:57
wblazesilly question, is there a way to open multiple xterms on the n900?05:57
SpeedEvilcehteh: no05:57
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SpeedEvilcehteh: Tehre are a number of flags on the charger chip that can tell you the state05:58
SpeedEvil200 is the charge monotro05:58
SpeedEvilwblaze: tap 'new' in the context menu05:58
cehtehwell how big are the power spikes the device causes? .. prolly tens of ms05:58
SpeedEvilThere shouldn't be power spikes - significant ones.05:58
SpeedEvilAll the spikes come out of the battery05:59
wblazeSpeedEvil: ... wow, I can't believe I missed that05:59
cehtehwell in  that case the battery was almost empty05:59
wblazethanks so much for humoring that haha05:59
DocScrutinizer51but a bit >850 for seconds05:59
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DocScrutinizer51you considered OVERvoltage?06:02
DocScrutinizer51has same effect06:02
cehteh?06:03
cehtehwow .. i phoned 7 times for 99 cent this month :P06:06
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DocScrutinizer51cehteh: voltage spikes or overvoltage in general will make N900 stop charging06:08
DocScrutinizer51more plausible than load spikes06:09
cehtehwell as i saied, when using this battery stationary then it charges fine, just with the n900 battery almost empty and while biking it didnt worked reliable06:10
DocScrutinizer51you might be able to log some of the state in bq24150 to see what's up06:10
cehtehi also disabled the dynamo charging so only the external battery provided power06:10
cehtehand when i put the phone in offline mode it seemed to be little better06:10
cehtehyeah i try that next tome06:10
cehtehtime06:10
DocScrutinizer51all not really concludent06:11
cehtehhow much overvoltage does the n900 accept? 5.2V? 5.5V?06:11
cehtehi could add a zener diode for protection .. but that would mean that the DCDC is somewhat broken and i doubt that, then it wont work stationary06:12
DocScrutinizer51while sleep 1; do i2cget $statusregister; done >logfile06:12
cehteh$statusregister is?06:12
DocScrutinizer51at least 6V06:12
cehteh./bq27200.sh 1 >logfile06:13
DocScrutinizer51I'm on the road, so postpone that for later06:13
cehtehok well i leave soon, take a nap .. its not that urgend06:13
DocScrutinizer51cehteh: 27200 won't tell much06:13
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cehtehis the input voltage available by i2c?06:14
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DocScrutinizer51you need 24150, see my before latest post on USBhostmode beta tmo thread06:14
DocScrutinizer51no, but a good/bad IIRC06:14
cehtehhey i have no clues about this :)06:15
DocScrutinizer51the error bits are identical for charge and boost06:15
* cehteh needs a lsi2c :P06:17
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SpeedEvilInteresting.06:18
SpeedEvilSupply voltage is 4V-6.3V - when it should 'always charge'06:18
SpeedEvilOutside these ranges, it trips off.06:19
cehtehthats quite a range06:19
SpeedEvilOutside the range -0.7 to 7V for a few seconds, it may explode.06:19
cehteh:)06:19
SpeedEvilI don't see that it's likely to charge fully with vbus at 4V though06:19
SpeedEvilerr - at -0.7 to 7V it's supposed to not be immediately damaged - ratehr.06:20
cehtehstepup?06:20
SpeedEvilExceeding that will do bad stuff06:20
cehtehwithout shortened data pins it doesnt charge at all .. i hoped that it charges at least at the minimum current the usb spec allows (80ma or so?)06:21
cehtehmaximum unacknowledged power06:22
cehtehwell in most cases when the device is running on my bike (gps and display on) it draws more than 80ma06:22
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SpeedEvilcehteh: It depends - with the battery voltage under s specified threshold, and BME dead, it will charge with the orange light on constnatly06:28
SpeedEvilAlso - a quick read of the example schematic and datasheet imply that it's not going to charge the battery to over the vbus - ever.06:29
SpeedEvilIt can't.06:29
cehtehwell i want to use the device and dont want a black brick on the handlebar06:29
cehtehwell on my next bike trip i will investigate the case06:31
SpeedEvilCharges the battery to 3.54V max06:31
SpeedEvilI'd look at jrbme06:31
SpeedEvilwork out how to set maximum input current to 500mA or something06:31
SpeedEvilThis will usually charge the device06:32
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cehtehMax Load Current Registers (MLIL/MLIH) — Address 0x1E/0x1F06:46
cehteherr wrong06:46
cehtehanyways .. such a nice capable chip .. and nokia fucked it up06:47
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ShadowJKuh?06:48
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DocScrutinizercehteh: SpeedEvil: yes, zhe bq24150 does no step-up for charging06:50
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DocScrutinizercehteh: I don't see how Nokia "fsckd it up" other than inventing a useless oversofisticated buggy controller daemon called BME06:51
cehtehthe bq24150 is the charger chip in the n900? and bq27200 is the battery gauge only?06:52
DocScrutinizeryes06:53
ShadowJK3.54V is more than enough to boot a bootloadrr and hand over charging though :P06:53
ShadowJKwhich is the idea of it06:53
cehteh   Table 6. Control Register (READ/WRITE)06:54
cehtehMemory Location: 01, Reset State: 0011 0000 (30H)06:54
cehteh.. ok looks like that, first 2 bits set charge current06:54
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: sure, if there's anything to handle charging X-P06:54
cehtehbut .. i'd expect i cant poke into that and bme agrees with me06:54
DocScrutinizercehteh: get ShadowJK 's charger skript aka the *real* jrbme06:55
ShadowJKbtw charge21.sh logs errors from bq24150 in MyDocs/charge.log06:55
cehtehShadowJK: where is your script?06:55
ShadowJKAnd, bme does do some sort of incremental current backoff06:55
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DocScrutinizerit doesn't according to all my tracing06:56
SpeedEvilIf it sees a bad source you mean?06:56
ShadowJKhttp://enivax.net/jk/n900/charge21.sh maybe06:56
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, yeah06:56
DocScrutinizerooh that06:56
SpeedEvilShadowJK: 40406:56
DocScrutinizermore nifty than I thopught06:56
cehtehhttp://enivax.net/jk/n900/charge21.sh.txt google says :)06:56
DocScrutinizeryeah, and I think it should auto-rename to charge21 on first invocation ;-P06:57
ShadowJKneeds i2c-tools06:57
ShadowJK(extras-devel)06:58
ShadowJKand bme not running06:58
DocScrutinizeryou can get those via apt-get though06:58
cehtehhehe06:58
DocScrutinizerthe warning?06:58
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DocScrutinizeryeah, though it's basically correct, I always found they exaggerate a bit on warning about i2ctools can eat your childs and drill holes into your skull06:59
DocScrutinizerwhile this may be appropriate in general, I think on N900 there's rather little you really could *accidentally* fsck up07:01
cehtehi have i2ctools installed anyways07:01
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DocScrutinizerwhere to do they install for you?07:01
DocScrutinizerls -l `which i2cget`07:01
cehteh/usr/sbin/i2cget07:02
DocScrutinizer:nod: thnx07:02
cehtehno optified .. dont care07:02
DocScrutinizermeh, there's other crap that needs optification URGENTLY07:02
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cehtehis there a libi2c? .. maybe i turn this script into a C daemon .. when i find some time07:02
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cehtehyes07:02
* DocScrutinizer mumbles swearwords about locales-cache07:03
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DocScrutinizercehteh: useless effort really07:03
cehtehwell actually optification is bullshit .. should be normal installation and bind mounts in the first place07:03
cehtehi am just looking at the script07:03
DocScrutinizercehteh: we all know that, even infobot07:03
ShadowJKi2c-devel or something. It's basically all headers, not much of a lib07:04
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* ShadowJK likes busybox sh though, can edit it on the go and doesn't need recompile :-)07:04
cehtehyeah i like sh for prototyping too07:04
DocScrutinizercehteh: if you really want to do sth useful about it, go for a cmdline replacement for hal-addon-bme to tell hal about battery status from scripts07:05
cehtehdidnt bme petting the watchdog?07:05
DocScrutinizerindeed, as does charger07:05
ShadowJKMissing stuff: error recovery, retry with lower charge rate, event-driven instead of polling07:06
DocScrutinizerthat'S the whole purpose of the critter07:06
ShadowJKand managing usb crap07:06
cehtehShadowJK: yes07:06
DocScrutinizerevent driven - another useful domain to hack: give us an open replacement for ke-recv07:06
cehtehwell currently i have no time07:06
ShadowJKand the chip behaves differently from what one would think after reading the datasheet :D07:07
DocScrutinizerdepends on what you think07:07
DocScrutinizer:-P07:07
DocScrutinizerI always found it in line with my expectations07:07
DocScrutinizerof course jmping a few of the statemachine states can leave you puzzled07:08
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DocScrutinizerfor hw there's no such thing as "I did this almost same time"07:09
ShadowJKI'm not sure if the side effect of reading status register was in datasheet :P07:09
DocScrutinizerset your registers *first* - then enable their usage07:09
DocScrutinizerthere's no such thing according to my observations07:10
DocScrutinizerreading status register is side effect free for me07:10
ShadowJKI've managed to confuse bme by reading status register in a loop, because then it's a race between my loop and bme who will see the real status first07:11
DocScrutinizerbut it's quite easy to trigger side effects by the way and timing you read07:12
DocScrutinizerI did eactly this and it worked flawlessly07:12
DocScrutinizeriirc07:12
DocScrutinizerat least bme for sure didn't complain or act up07:13
ShadowJKNormally nothing happens where it would matter, because bme mostly looks at gaia vbus07:13
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DocScrutinizerhell, bme shouldn't look for any vbus07:14
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ShadowJKvbus doesn't need polling07:14
DocScrutinizerthere's simply no need to 'look at vbus'07:14
DocScrutinizer24150 will tell bme all about vbus status07:15
ShadowJKit's how bme reacts faster than 15s on charger removed :P07:15
ShadowJKor inserted07:15
DocScrutinizerand of course kevents will tell ke-recv and bme about vbus applied07:15
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* DocScrutinizer curses the lack of any general purpose kevents-monitor cmdline tool similar to dbus-monitor07:16
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ShadowJKSo undervoltage big enough to make bq24150 upset and reset to defaults, but not so big to make gaia vbus drop, grab error from bq24150 before bme, bme sees normal status next check, bq24150 is left in post-reset configuration ;p07:17
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DocScrutinizerthere's udev-admin but that's just *a teeny bit* off topic07:17
DocScrutinizerthat's your way to tell the story - I'm still highly doubtfull about the reset-on-read thing of status07:18
ShadowJKclear on read07:19
DocScrutinizernot here07:19
cehtehok .. poking in i2c registers while bme is runnin doesnt work, yeah i didnt expected that07:19
DocScrutinizercould've toldya07:19
cehtehyes yes07:20
DocScrutinizeryou shouldn't do such things ;-)07:20
ShadowJKI can get 9 hour old error out of it too, the triggering cause being long gone too :P07:20
cehtehi hoped bme looked away this time :P07:20
DocScrutinizerbme reprograms all registers every 15s or so07:20
DocScrutinizeralmost07:21
cehtehprolly faster07:21
DocScrutinizerbme totally has b24250 on strings, not allowing it to do the right thing07:21
DocScrutinizerthe bme devels didn't understand there's a cpu inside the chip that does all that for them07:22
cehtehyeah07:22
ShadowJKOnce I changed charge rate after bme started charge, and bme didn't change it at all until next unplug/plug07:22
DocScrutinizerthe reimplemented a punchcard reader as known from N8x0 on a cray07:22
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: I'm not sure which registers are under supervision of bme, maybe rate isn't07:23
DocScrutinizerI got logs of *all* i2c traffic07:24
ShadowJKI've never actually seen bme change parameters except as a result of exceptions07:24
DocScrutinizerneed lots of aspirin and beer to read it07:24
DocScrutinizerwhatever, you definitely don't want to mess with bme07:25
DocScrutinizercehteh: ShadowJK 's script is nice and clean and commented, just edit the max-current setting07:25
cehtehyes07:25
DocScrutinizerthough I honestly think you better should investigate rather than fixing a hypothetical case07:26
cehtehi likely improve it a bit but not now ..07:26
cehtehread max current from some /tmp file so one can change that on the fly, possibly with some gui07:26
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DocScrutinizer*cough*07:27
cehteh(queen beecon..)07:27
DocScrutinizer*cough*07:27
DocScrutinizer*cough*07:27
cehtehhaha07:27
DocScrutinizera) not tmp07:27
DocScrutinizerb) use pipes07:27
ShadowJKthen people will set it to 1250 and meltdown their phones :)07:27
DocScrutinizerc) use sigusr107:27
cehtehnah07:27
cehtehthats impossible07:27
cehtehand of course safeguard it, just allow to lower the current not increase07:28
ShadowJKpipes are almost unusable for that from sh, and signals aren't much better07:28
* ShadowJK only uses 1250 for hotswap now07:28
cehteh1250 will melt the chip on extended time spans?07:29
* cehteh wants some gui button "i am on my bike, dont charge more than 500ma07:30
ShadowJKAlso the battery cell is only rated for 925mA charge iirc07:30
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SpeedEvilMost cells I've seen ar rated for 1C charge07:31
wblazecehteh: out of curiosity, what are you trying to accomplish?07:31
ShadowJKMost high capacity ones I've seen are rated for less07:31
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ShadowJKcehteh, you know, my tekkeon doesn't make bme or bq24150 freak out despite its current capability dropping to less than 500mA :P07:32
DocScrutinizerdamn reconnects07:32
DocScrutinizerwhat's impossible?07:32
cehtehwblaze: i have a bike dynamo charger / battery and it sometimes doesnt charge, presumely because of voltage drops, so i'd like to try to limit the charge current to a lower level07:32
DocScrutinizerhe's superman and I'm the siversurfer, nothing is impossible07:32
DocScrutinizerand for maemo and N900, everything can happen today or tomorrow07:32
DocScrutinizer;-P07:32
DocScrutinizerseen http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1023402&postcount=821 ??07:32
DocScrutinizeresp the left-over comment header in the script...07:32
cehtehanyways at home i almost always charging at my usb-hub too, the wallcharger is in the sleeping room07:33
DocScrutinizercehteh: ShadowJK: esp when VBUS too low, I think N900 has another message to user than "can not charge"07:34
SpeedEvilAlso - VBUS overvoltage can be benign if the voltage is in the range 6.3-7. (but...)07:34
wblazecehteh: neat07:34
cehteh"Akku wird nicht geladen" iirc07:34
DocScrutinizerI lowered VBUS to sth like 3.5V and charging actually didn't happen, still N900 *signalled* charging is good07:34
cehtehthats what i get07:34
DocScrutinizercehteh: better investigate instead of headless "fixing" an unclear issue07:35
cehtehDocScrutinizer: for a DCDC controlled input it shouldnt do overvoltage .. and i already saied, if i use that startionary to charge it doesnt happen07:36
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DocScrutinizerso what?07:36
cehtehDocScrutinizer: i dont have the equipment to investigate this properly07:36
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cehtehnext DMM on the handlebar :)07:36
DocScrutinizerthis only means you're short of ideas. Your explanation is rether a bit more unlikely to be correct than overvoltage is07:36
cehtehbetter a logging one (i dont have)07:36
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, iirc that happens when D+/D- still short, voltage drops low enough to trip 24150, but still high enough for 'vbus' to read as 1 on gaia07:37
DocScrutinizerpossible07:37
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DocScrutinizerbut then how comes charging commences when voltage goes up again?07:37
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DocScrutinizerif bq24150 got reset, this can't happen07:37
cehtehhence my first idea to buffer it with some caps .. might or might not help but costs 50 cents, and if it works i am happy07:37
DocScrutinizeryou can try this, but you'd need like 100mF/10V07:38
DocScrutinizerwell, no problem nowadays07:38
DocScrutinizernot even lowESR07:38
cehtehhehe .. 6V should be enough or? :)07:39
cehtehwho needs a safety marigin07:39
DocScrutinizerno way07:39
DocScrutinizerthose are always best case volzages07:39
cehtehok07:39
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DocScrutinizerI've *never* seen a 6V circuit equipped with 6.3V Cs07:40
cehtehwell 100mF are bit much :) .. i was thinking about 4700µ thats easily doable .. and a 47µ tantal07:40
DocScrutinizerrarely ever a 5V circuit07:40
cehtehbut yes this is guesswork .. i dont have the equipment to test07:40
DocScrutinizerforget the tantal, use a 1uF foil07:40
cehteh1µ foil is much biggier, isnt it?07:41
DocScrutinizerwithout equipment and with no desire to write proper testing software, your approach probably is the next sane thing to do07:42
DocScrutinizeruse 100nF then07:42
DocScrutinizertantal are mostly worthless07:42
DocScrutinizerfor this purpose07:42
* ShadowJK did wonder why people want to stick tantal everywhere07:43
DocScrutinizerno idea07:43
cehtehdont you have a regulated power supply and can simulate undervoltage?07:43
cehtehmaybe with some resistor in series07:43
DocScrutinizerI have07:43
DocScrutinizerand I did07:43
DocScrutinizeras I said above07:43
Macerblah07:44
SpeedEvilhttp://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=565-2601-ND07:44
cehtehShadowJK: the nicest thing about tantals is that when they blow up, they explode multiple times07:44
SpeedEvilOne of these caps, maybe07:44
SpeedEvilPossibly two07:44
ShadowJKMy energizer 2 * AA "emergency charger" is happier with a cap on the input07:44
Macermy g2 is srewesc07:45
cehtehlooks huge :)07:45
Macerblah07:45
DocScrutinizerhonestly, it's really easy to build a electronic "blowfuse" that triggers and holds on 6.5V, and another one that resets on <4.5V07:45
Macerit is starting to drive me nuts07:46
DocScrutinizerMacer: pleased to hear :-P07:46
Macerhaha07:46
Maceritsucks07:46
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DocScrutinizerok, hear hear! Macer suggests to stay on N90007:47
Macerthe sensor  for the "trackball" is broken07:47
DocScrutinizernow I'm not sure we need to know details07:47
DocScrutinizer;-D07:47
DocScrutinizerunless we'll learn from them about general "this sucks, avoid" lessons for particular hw components and techniques07:48
Maceryeah07:48
cehtehhttp://www.reichelt.de/Becher-Elkos/BE-100-000-16/index.html?;ACTION=3;LA=2;ARTICLE=5383;GROUPID=3146;SID=10TU6VC38AAAIAACUNLgk08edb0187f320c5739196d5597ae81f807:49
cehtehok thats not 50 cent :P07:49
Macerhtc makes some pretty flimsy gear07:49
DocScrutinizerso, if anything, we learn "trackballs on mobile phones suck"07:49
DocScrutinizerwe learn "htc makes flimsy gear"07:49
Macer:)07:49
Macertheir g1 trackball wasn't too bad07:50
ShadowJKisn't it like upside down optical mouse?07:50
Maceryes07:50
ShadowJKor does it have actual ball?07:50
DocScrutinizernow this reduces the value of your previous lesson07:50
* ShadowJK wishes someone made bluetooth trackball07:50
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: the reverted optical mouse is also in Samsung omnia07:51
MacerShadowJK: g1 had a ball. g2 has the optical mouse07:51
DocScrutinizerit's kinda nice and sturdy, but not the HID for me07:51
Macerhonestly nokia makes the most solid stuff i've ever used07:51
Macertoo bad their future products are going to suck :)07:52
* ShadowJK has a fullsize logitech wireless optical trackball on his desk07:52
DocScrutinizerI hate HIDs that have no direct relation between position of your finger(s) and cursor pos07:52
DocScrutinizerequally bad for me07:52
ShadowJKoptical as in, there are optical sensors detecting the ball spinning07:52
DocScrutinizerI know these, hate them too07:52
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MacerShadowJK: i think the g1 was analog07:53
DocScrutinizerlast tzime I bitched about it, I called trackball F' and trackpoint F''07:53
Macersmall spinning gears? :) idk07:53
DocScrutinizerwhile mouse and touchscreen and tablet/pad are F07:53
wblazeI love trackpoint :(07:53
Macern900 seems to get along just fine without a trackball type addition07:54
DocScrutinizerI suggest you get a mosue driver with cursor innertia then, even more cute07:54
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DocScrutinizeraccelerate cursor, whatch it fly, then decelerate it, using your trackpoint07:55
SpeedEvilI like my trackpoint.07:55
ShadowJKtrackball would be nice on symbian, as symbian makes scrolling and selecting stuff difficult07:55
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Macer"would have been"07:56
Macerheh07:56
DocScrutinizeras long as it isn'z a return-to-origin type of control for cursor pos, you can take your trackpoint and do ****` with it07:56
ShadowJKlet's go back to using paddles07:56
DocScrutinizeryeah07:56
Macerhahaha07:56
wblazeoh, n900 with a paddle would rock07:57
Maceretch-a-sketch style?07:57
ShadowJKyeah07:57
wblazeminiture mobile 2600 emulator07:57
DocScrutinizerhonestly, moving cursor with a trackpoint is like driving autoscooter with a remote control07:57
Macerbonus points to whomever can make it go exactly 45 degrees07:57
DocScrutinizerbonus points for anybody writing a single word with trackpoint07:58
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DocScrutinizerno block letters07:58
wblazeDocScrutinizer: as in graphic design?07:58
DocScrutinizeryes07:58
wblazeI have done it07:58
wblazeaucks, but workable in a pinch07:59
cehtehn807:59
DocScrutinizerdamn, you misz be starfighter pilot in your daytime job07:59
DocScrutinizermust*07:59
wblazeglorified monitoring app07:59
wblazelol07:59
DocScrutinizerthen, to make game more funny, do the same writing with trackpoint while your eyes closed08:00
DocScrutinizeryou bet I win with touchpad or tablet or mouse or touchscreen08:01
wblazenever had an occasion to need that particular skill08:01
DocScrutinizerit's not a skill, it's an idealized test bed08:02
wblazeI never said it was superior, just that I like it08:02
DocScrutinizerit's a fringe case to show limitations08:02
wblazeI don't know how this got to be an argument on merit08:03
DocScrutinizerotoh a trackpoint might be great for exact cursor *positioning* when in a really limited space environment, like a shaking airplane, economy class seat08:03
wblazethats close enough to the reason I needed it for graphic design08:04
DocScrutinizeron speed of actions you're definitely better with direct-movement-projection HIDs like mice08:04
DocScrutinizerwell, all depends on your usage patterns and preferences08:05
DocScrutinizerno point in arguing about it :-D08:05
* ShadowJK should try use two sticks08:06
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SpeedEvilSpeaking personally.08:06
SpeedEvilI have a keyboard with integrated trackpoint and touchpad.08:06
SpeedEvilI never ever use the touchpad.08:06
DocScrutinizerI also hate the touchpad of my laptop08:07
DocScrutinizeralways using a normal mouse instead08:07
wblazeSpeedEvil: I was the same way until I started finding it hard to find a system with a trackpoint08:07
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wblazethen I started paying attention to the touchpad08:07
DocScrutinizertouchpad usually is closer to a trackball than to a mouse08:07
SpeedEvilI'm currently using a external keyboard.08:07
SpeedEvilIBM spacesaver (PS/2)08:08
SpeedEvilIt also comes in USB, but secondhand PS2 was cheapr08:08
* DocScrutinizer too ;'( >:-(08:08
DocScrutinizersee my ovi recent upload08:08
wblazeI'm currently using my n900 keyboard while sitting next to a full size keyboard08:08
wblazeI think we established I do things the hard way08:09
DocScrutinizerWHAT a PILE OF plastic SHIT this kbd is08:09
wblazeheh08:09
SpeedEvilI'm lying down, keyboard on lap, under blankets, eyes closed.08:09
DocScrutinizer5$ kbd08:09
DocScrutinizeraah, you got espeak connected to xchat finally, SpeedEvil ?08:10
SpeedEvilNo, I open my eyes some of the time.08:10
DocScrutinizerhehe08:10
wblazelol08:11
DocScrutinizerI could send you a .wav collection with the ~350 words I need to write on IRC, so you could get me with original voice ;-P08:11
* DocScrutinizer includes a *BURP*, recirded close to mic08:12
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: I'll do further tests to learn I've been wrong, or to defend bq24150's innocence :-D08:15
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DocScrutinizereasy, I just need an additional line in my vboost script08:15
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ShadowJKI have no data on vboost behaviour :-)08:18
DocScrutinizerif status actually resets on read, I have to reread and comment on the datasheet somewhere08:18
DocScrutinizernow I really hope behaviour of status readout is consistent between boost and charge mode08:19
DocScrutinizer:-S08:19
ShadowJKWell imagine what would happen with intermittent errors if the status wasn't stored and held until readout :-)08:20
DocScrutinizerhell the status shouldn't get teset on read!!08:20
DocScrutinizerat least I'd think the datasheet should state damn *clearly* WHEN it gets reset08:21
ShadowJKiirc the state diagram kinda implies undefined behaviour unless you switch charge/boost off and reconfigure after any exception or error :-)08:22
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ShadowJKOriginally I only noticed because I had a status readout at start of loop, and at the end of loop, and wondered why it would always be error on one line and 0x10 on the next :-)08:23
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: you're definitely right - >> Fault condition is cleared by POR and fault status bits can only be updated after the status bits are read out by the host.<< is pretty clear08:36
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DocScrutinizeralso for all interested parties: >> USB Friendly Boot-Up Sequence At power on reset (POR) of VBUS, if the battery voltage is above the weak battery threshold, V(LOWV), bq24150 operates in a mode dictated by the I2C control registers. If the battery voltage is below V(LOWV) and the host control through I2C interface is lost (32 minute mode), the bq24150 resets all I2C registers with default values and enable the charger with an input current08:41
DocScrutinizerlimit dictated by the OTG pin voltage level until the host programs the I2C registers. During this period, the input current limit is 100 mA when the voltage level of OTG pin is low; while the input current limit is 500 mA when the voltage level of OTG pin is high. This feature can revive the deeply discharged cell. The charge process continues even the battery is charged to the regulation voltage [3.54V, 32minutes max]<<08:41
DocScrutinizerin short: without sw-control the charger chip will charge bat to max 3,54V, for a max of 32min, at a current of 100mA from PC and 500mA from wallcharger08:43
DocScrutinizerduring this time the LED shows steady yellow08:43
DocScrutinizer~flatbat-recover08:44
DocScrutinizer~flatbatrecover08:44
infobotRemove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover08:44
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ShadowJKalso check what happens on 32m timer expiration08:46
DocScrutinizercehteh: you can select input current from 100/500/unlimited08:46
ShadowJK800 too08:47
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DocScrutinizerhmm yep08:47
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DocScrutinizerwhat happens on 32min expiry?08:47
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ShadowJKi have a vague memory of the state diagram going back to the beginning08:48
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DocScrutinizerLOL08:48
DocScrutinizerafter the 32-second timer is reset. If the 32-second timer expires, the charge is terminated and charge08:48
DocScrutinizerparameters are reset to default values. Then the 32-minute timer starts and the charge resumes.08:48
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DocScrutinizeroops, nope08:48
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DocScrutinizeraccording to state diagram it enters "TIMER FAULT"08:50
ShadowJKwhat happens after that?08:50
DocScrutinizeron any fault it should stop all charging, no?08:50
ShadowJKiirc it enters fault, no charging, 32s timer, resets on timer expiry08:50
ShadowJKback to charging?08:51
DocScrutinizerwut?08:51
DocScrutinizer32s timer only starts when I2C activity08:51
ShadowJKhm08:52
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Termanagood morning08:52
* ShadowJK sleeps08:53
DocScrutinizermorning Termana08:53
DocScrutinizercehteh: The bq24150/1 provides a built-in input over-voltage protection to protect the device and other components against damages if the input voltage (Voltage from VBUS to PGND) goes too high. When an input overvoltage condition is detected, bq24150/1 turns off the PWM converter, sets fault status bits, and sends out fault pulse in STAT pin. Once VBUS drops below the input overvoltage exit threshold, the fault is cleared and charge08:53
DocScrutinizerprocess resumes.08:53
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: in fact on 32min expiry the chip enters charge configure mode, sets /CE=1 and stops charging, and waits for /CE=0, wich aiui happens on POR only09:08
DocScrutinizeror on I2C-reset of course09:08
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robbiethe1stDocScrutinizer: I will say I don't think BME monitors that overvoltage fault pin09:10
robbiethe1stI ended up sending 12V into it, and got absolutely no message other than "charging"09:10
DocScrutinizerdefinitely not09:10
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DocScrutinizeroh, you're talking about the state, not the pin09:11
robbiethe1stYea09:11
DocScrutinizerwell, dunno if bme cares or not09:11
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robbiethe1stOh, that reminds me: Would it be possible to replace the microB backend with the one from, say Fennec/FF4?09:12
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DocScrutinizergolden: >> OPA_MODE is the operation mode control bit. When OPA_MODE = 0, the bq24150/1 charges the related operation modes if HZ_MODE is set to "0", refer to Table 2 for detail.09:14
DocScrutinizerthis is what chinese/japanese datasheets translated get you09:14
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DocScrutinizerrobbiethe1st: no doubt however about bq24150 sensing and signalling VBUS-OV in status bits (R00[2:0]=001 -> VBUS OVP)09:32
robbiethe1stHm, good09:33
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DocScrutinizer>> Input Overvoltage Protection The bq24150/1 provides a built-in input over-voltage protection to protect the device and other components against damages if the input voltage (Voltage from VBUS to PGND) goes too high. When an input overvoltage condition is detected, bq24150/1 turns off the PWM converter, sets fault status bits, and sends out fault pulse in STAT pin. Once VBUS drops below the input overvoltage exit threshold, the fault is09:35
DocScrutinizercleared and charge process resumes.09:35
DocScrutinizerthis suggests short spikes recover and go unnoticed09:38
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DocScrutinizerexactly what ShadowJK mentioned to be worse than reset-on-read09:38
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DocScrutinizer"...the fault is cleared..." without any chance to get noticed on what sort of reliable means soever09:38
DocScrutinizernothing to latch up the event, to read out async09:39
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DocScrutinizeras robbiethe1st said, the STAT pin is only driving the amber LED and is not monitored by CPU09:40
arvuthello and gooood moning09:41
JaffaMorning, all09:41
DocScrutinizerOTOH when cehteh says the device signals "charging not possible" then the condition has to stay long enough to log it by frequent polling of status register09:42
DocScrutinizermorn09:42
arvuting09:42
DocScrutinizercehteh: you should shorten the poll-loop sleep in shadowjk's charger script to 1s (or less) to get proper logs about transient errors of VBUS09:43
meceI'm sure this is a good place to ask, so here goes. Anybody here knows how to administer profiles on Windows xp?09:45
DocScrutinizerJaffa: how's life?09:45
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DocScrutinizer*cough*09:45
DocScrutinizeradminister what?09:45
mecewell09:45
arvutmece: ##windows :)09:45
mece%appdata% variable points to something that doesn't exist09:46
mecearvut, people aren't friendly in other channels09:46
DocScrutinizeryou thing with *me* in *this* chan your choice been better ? ;-P09:46
arvutmece: true dat. but this is for the maemo linux os, not win xp09:46
mecealso, I assume people who actually use windows out of choice don't know shit about windows, or they wouldn't be using it.09:46
DocScrutinizerlol09:47
arvutI've used windows xp since it came out. nowadays I either use win 7 or ubuntu09:47
DocScrutinizergood point09:47
mecearvut, really? Linux? Is that the newest version of windows?09:47
* mece is joking09:48
arvutnot funny09:48
mecewas a little bit funny09:48
DocScrutinizermece: http://xkcd.com/424/09:48
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DocScrutinizerso much for true nature of buntkuh09:49
meceDocScrutinizer, funny because true09:49
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meceDocScrutinizer, I use Mint, which is the Windows 7 version of ubuntu09:50
arvutDocScrutinizer: that was funny tho, especially the ubuntu winvista joke =)09:50
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arvutmece: its more like the already-configured ubuntu ;)09:52
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mecearvut, but the already-configured ubuntu is called ubuntu09:52
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DocScrutinizerlooking at XKCD 424 I have a hard time stopping mumbling "maemo FIASCO" every time09:53
mecethere's a new debian flavor mint tho. That does sound like a very nice thing for lazy gits like me09:53
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arvutmece: even-further configured ubuntu then09:53
DocScrutinizermaemo devels @ Nokia had a rather strange kind of humor09:54
arvutor simply lazy man's ubuntu09:54
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meceDocScrutinizer, teehee. I always wondered why they are called fiasco. I mean sure it's a mess, but fiasco? Hardly. Atleast when compared to the rest of the mobile crowd09:54
mecearvut, yes. That is spot on!09:54
DocScrutinizermece: nokia devels are clever - fiasco also means flask09:55
meceBut alas, I am stuck with this broken piece of dung, and I need to fix this09:55
DocScrutinizerI heard NOLO also isn't a nice word at some places in the world09:55
arvutlike a windows addicted friend of mine said (he even prefers IE before firefox!) : "windows if you want problems and mac OS if you're a complete idiot at computers"09:56
meceyep. means "embarrassed"09:56
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mecearvut, aside from his awkward addiction, your friend seems like a smart man09:57
arvuthe didnt mention linux tho but I know he tried to install red hat 11 years ago09:57
meceor woman09:57
arvutmece: hes actually quite brilliant when it comes to smartness. but too stubborn to move away from his beloved windows.09:58
DocScrutinizerwindows always been the text adventure for the tech ignorant and ignorant about that fact masochists09:58
mecearvut, well that is his prerogative09:59
DocScrutinizerthose who know they're tech ignorant like to opt for mac09:59
arvutI like problemsolving too, just like he does. but I tend to expand my area or work when I feel there is need for a new challenge, hence why I've been stuck in linux 4 the last 3 years :P09:59
DocScrutinizerlinux 4 ??10:00
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mece"for"10:00
mecenot four10:00
arvutDocScrutinizer: yeah, but it do make sense tho. you get things done and dont have to bother about problemsolving too much. its the tool that rarely breaks10:00
meceor?10:01
arvutty mece :)10:01
mece:)10:01
arvutyes, for10:01
arvutI was lazy10:01
arvutan admin on a russian cs server just gave me a 4 week vacation :)10:02
DocScrutinizertrain your speech recog sw, dude! ;-D10:02
arvutnah, I like shorting words down when typing on the n90010:02
arvutlonger keyboard life that way :)10:03
DocScrutinizersometimes leaving out "words" better than abrev10:03
arvutI get that, took some explaining, whihc means more typing. thus not saving keyboard life10:04
DocScrutinizeror10:05
DocScrutinizerno "word > wrong "word"10:06
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DocScrutinizerumm10:13
DocScrutinizer~dict frdhsgf10:13
infobotcould not find definition for frdhsgf10:13
DocScrutinizer~dict sigill10:13
infobotcould not find definition for sigill10:13
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DocScrutinizer~dict sigill10:15
infobotcould not find definition for sigill10:15
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: there's been a reason for this chan +c ?10:17
DocScrutinizer(what's the rationale of any channel having +c?)10:18
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arvutwhat is +c anyway?11:17
* edheldil can't find it either11:19
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infobotOkay, I'm here. (courtesy of docscrutinizer)11:20
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hiemanshu+c means allowing/disallowing colors in the channel11:30
hiemanshucolored/bold text11:30
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lardmanmorning11:59
lardmanit's taken a while but I've just received my first skype call11:59
lardmanand it's still annoying that you don't see the phone number/type that is calling you11:59
* lardman presumes there must be a bug for this12:00
MohammadAG51lardman, skype icon next to avatar12:02
lardmandidn't see that12:02
lardmanthis contact doesn't have an avatar though12:02
MohammadAG51blue avatar12:02
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lardmanhmm, no, I don't think that was there tbh12:03
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lardmanI would have noticed it12:03
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MohammadAG51I'm pretty sure it's there, I receive lots of skype calls12:03
lardmanI'll check tomorrow, but I did just sit there looking at the screen thinking this is going to cost the caller lots of money if it's a normal gsm call12:04
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lardmanwow, there are lots of bugs against the phone/sms/messaging component12:06
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DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: thought as much, thanks. That's not been the question though12:10
DocScrutinizerooh, sorry, you answered to arvut / edheldil12:11
DocScrutinizeractually +c means colors are *not* allowed12:12
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: any notion about +c?12:14
wamTesttest12:14
wamhmm12:14
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DocScrutinizerlardman: I sometimes wonder if the integration went just a bit *too* far wrt IM/SMS/Skype/VoIP/GSM12:19
lardmanno, I like the integration, would just be good to have some indication of exactly where to or from your message call will be going12:19
lardmansame's true of the messaging bit, never quite sure which number an sms will go to12:19
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DocScrutinizerI also like the integration, what I don't like is the missing choice wehn it comes to the handling backends12:20
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DocScrutinizeranyway the missing number display is a LOOOONG pending ticket12:21
RST38hMoo all12:21
DocScrutinizermooorst12:21
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MohammadAG51lardman, send a message to echo-chinese saying "callme"12:21
MohammadAG51I'm pretty sure there's an icon12:22
DocScrutinizerlol12:22
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, people should be able to use colours12:22
* MohammadAG51 looks for that rainbow script12:22
DocScrutinizerso why are so many channels +c then?12:22
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edheldilFor some reason, chanserv help on flags does not list +c flag12:23
DocScrutinizererrr, not sure if it lists chanmodes at all12:23
DocScrutinizerfor sure not all12:23
DocScrutinizerhttp://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml here you go12:24
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hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: yeah, thats why the 'allowing/disallowing' part :D12:40
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: most channels are +c because its considered spamming and can get out of hand at times12:41
DocScrutinizerhmm, never seen any issues so far12:41
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hiemanshuwell some times, we have had a lot of spammers and other issues before freenode shifted to Seven12:42
DocScrutinizeranyway, I enabled colors a few minutes ago. If anybody feels this is causing problems or just inconveniences for him, let me know12:42
DocScrutinizeror alternatively talk to any of the chanops listed in accesslist  ( /msg chanserv access #maemo list )12:44
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DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: how would colors make spamming and bot attacks worse?12:47
DocScrutinizerhiemanshu: are there known exploits?12:47
hiemanshuDocScrutinizer: imagine multiple lines of rainbow text about pics of nakes girls12:47
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hiemanshuno known exploits, it just hurts the eyes12:48
hiemanshurainbow colors makes stuff hard to read12:48
DocScrutinizerwill hurt eyes either way12:48
DocScrutinizercolor abuse is a sure kickban, no doubt12:48
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DocScrutinizerso is spamming in general12:49
hiemanshuyeah, thats the thing12:49
hiemanshuand spamming with color abuse is worse12:49
DocScrutinizermaybe I see the difference when I eventually see the difference ;-)12:50
mecealterego, gotten your dirty hands on the mythical harmattan device(s)?12:50
DocScrutinizerI'd think for me as chanop color spamming is especially easy to spot12:50
DocScrutinizermeh12:51
DocScrutinizerhyttical marmathan12:52
mecehyttical!12:52
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* lardman wonders what the delay is with the mythical Harmattan device(s)13:24
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mecelardman, first of all, its hyttical, not mythical, second, is it delayed?13:25
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lardmanmece: ah I dunno about the delay bit of course13:25
* lardman looks up hyttical in the dictionary13:26
mecelardman, might not be there since DocScrutinizer coined it less than an hour ago13:26
lardmanGoogle decided I meant hypothetical, which is probably about right I guess ;)13:27
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DocScrutinizercynical marmouthan13:27
meceI guess it's a combination of mythical and hypothetical. Actually that makes sense.13:27
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lardmanin any case I do hope they crack on, we're moving next week and I will be internetless13:32
lardmanthough perhaps that would be a good thing, less F5 hitting :)13:32
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* Jaffa looks forward to the heretical Harmattan devices.13:39
Jaffa(well, that's the #meego meaning of hyttical ;-))13:40
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mecelardman, I love the rumor thread :D13:41
lardmanmece: I check the last page now and then, realising I've missed 10 in between13:42
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lardmanI do (not) love the way some random will just pipe up with a "specification" and then say at the bottom that this is just their wish list13:44
lardmandrives me mad in fact13:44
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BCMMafter restoring a backup on a new N900, my old Alarmed events are still happening. However, they are not showing in the Alarmed GUI, leaving me no obvious way to delete them. Can somebody help?14:51
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mecehey anyone here that could help me with a qdbus thing?14:52
lardmanI have a little experience with it14:53
BCMMmece reminds me; is there a way to install the qdbus binary on maemo?14:54
alteregoHas anyone had success tethering N900 with ubuntu 11.04 via usb?14:55
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mgedminalterego, haven't tried with 11.04 yet, but it used to Just Work(TM) with 10.1015:01
alteregomgedmin: I know, works great on 10.1015:02
alteregoWell, works on 10.1015:02
alteregoBut it fails everytime for 11.0415:02
mgedminhm, interesting15:02
alteregoIt's recognised as a modem, just doesn't dial and I don't know how to debug nm ..15:03
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mgedmintail -f /var/log/daemon.log15:05
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alteregom'kay, thanks, I'll give that a go.15:06
mgedminsee also https://live.gnome.org/NetworkManager/Debugging15:06
mgedmin"Debugging PPP-based connections (3G, PPPoE)"15:06
alteregoDoesn't work via BT either btw ;)15:06
alteregoAh, cool, thanks! :)15:07
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mgedminexcept... "NM 0.8 uses somethingelse so this does not apply"15:07
mgedminoh, there's a different section right after15:07
mgedminanyway, let me try15:08
mgedminyep, fails15:08
alterego:/15:08
meceerm15:09
mecesorry15:09
mgedminright, so the log file is not daemon.log, but /var/log/syslog15:09
meceseems I'm actually too busy to do this right now. Stupid job.15:09
mgedmin"GSM modem enable failed: (32) Serial command timed out"15:09
alteregocool15:10
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mecelardman, anyway I have a separate header file with some qdbus stuff and notifications. But the stupid thing opens a new window when there's a notification. I want it to stack..15:11
mecelardman, I'm not exactly sure how to do it or whether it has anything to do with qdbus15:11
lardmanis that not an issue with your window props?15:11
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mgedminwhy does my browser think I've visited https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=583691 in the past?15:13
povbotBug 583691: was not found.15:13
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mgedminfixed upstream15:15
mecelardman, possibly. Not sure what window props actually mean though.15:15
mgedminreported in ubuntu as https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/modemmanager/+bug/76551615:16
lardmanmece: I'd also need to check them, but afair you can have a top level window or a child window which alters whether they appear in the task mamager, etc15:16
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* mgedmin updates the ubuntu bug with a link to the upstream patch15:20
mgedminand now I have doubts about it having worked in 10.10...15:21
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alteregoWell, it intermittantly works in 10.1015:21
alteregoYou have to unplug and plug it back in when it disconnects to reconnect amongst other oddities.15:22
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mgedminoh snap, natty's modemmanager has that fix applied :(15:23
alteregoYou're f'ing kidding?15:24
alteregoBut it's not in 11.04?15:24
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mgedmin11.04 is natty15:27
mgedminwhich means there is a different bug somewhere15:28
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alteregoWell, this looks like the modem manager is immediately enabling and disabling ttyACM015:34
* alterego wonders how to get a list of urls from open microb windows ..15:36
Jaffaalterego: Dunno, but it'd be cool to have something which allowed for better movement of context between N900, Windows, Linux and iPad. Either myself or someone else15:38
Jaffaalterego: Some kind of broadcast/Bonjour-style "so & so says this is interesting"15:38
alteregoI was just going to write a script, that got open windows and made firefox open them in tabs for me ;)15:38
alteregoNothing too fancy :D15:38
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alteregoI suppose at the very least, it'd be straight forward to implement a browser plugin to do it :)15:40
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DocScrutinizeralterego: dunno what exactly it been but I pondered about microb plugins some time ago16:15
Macerthere are microb plugins?16:16
Macerwhat ever happened to chromium on the n900?16:16
ShadowJKis this modemmanager thing like notworkmanager, designed to prevent you from surfing the webs?16:17
Maceri remember it being in the repos one day then gone16:17
SpeedEvilcourgette16:17
SpeedEvilMacer:16:17
SpeedEvilIt was subject to a claim that there was copyvio in it.16:17
Macercopyvio?16:17
SpeedEvilnokia pulled it - though there was a fixed version with the code ripped out16:17
SpeedEvilyes16:17
SpeedEvilIt was related to the small update stuff16:18
Macerso..... why wasnt it put back into the repo?16:18
SpeedEvilnokia legal are annoying16:18
DocScrutinizeractively and on purpose?16:18
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DocScrutinizerlet's see whom to annoy today16:19
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* SpeedEvil tries knocking various tones out of his upstream DSL connection to improve downstream rates.16:20
DocScrutinizerduh! such detailed control over rhat low level stuff?16:21
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SpeedEvilI have a wierd router. I wish it had GPL though.16:21
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JackBeSlowSo I've got an "interesting" charging problem. My little sister jammed the wrong type of charger in the little nokia charger port of my N900 and ever since then it tells me it is charging even when it's not plugged in and I have no way of knowing my battery life.16:44
JackBeSlowOn top of that I haven't gotten more than 8 hours out of it.16:44
Appiahouch16:45
JackBeSlowWas wondering what the best way to get it repaired would be. It's out of warranty.16:45
JackBeSlowAnd I don't have all that much money.16:45
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rm_workthat's...16:58
rm_workvery strange O_o16:58
rm_workthere are a few battery knowledgable people here that might be able to explain that? or at least theorize16:58
rm_worki recommend hanging out for a while16:59
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JackBeSlowWill do.17:03
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JackBeSlowYeah, it's more than a little odd. I've installed battery-eye and battery graph and of course get some really weird readings. Advanced power causes a reboot loop after the first reset that requires reflashing.17:04
rm_workhrm17:05
rm_worki wonder if it scrambled something in the charging circuit in the n900 or in the battery itself17:05
rm_workreplacing the battery wouldn't be free but it'd be comparatively cheap17:05
JackBeSlowAlready had a spare I swapped it with. No difference unfortunately so I have to assume it's the charging circuit.17:08
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madMeerkat_hi there17:15
madMeerkat_I'm having some issues with the mobility example declarative-camera, can anyone help me?17:16
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JackBeSlowI've barely messed around with it but what's the issue?17:18
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madMeerkat_I'm using the last Qt SDK (released last may) that include Qt Mobility but when I try running the example included I obtain the following message17:20
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madMeerkat_qrc:/qml/declarative-camera.qml:42:1: module "QtMultimediKit" is not installed17:20
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madMeerkat_that line says: import QtMultimediKit 1.117:21
JackBeSlowDo you know what version of QT Mobility you have?17:23
madMeerkat_I installed the SDK17:23
madMeerkat_Qt Mobility version 1.1.317:24
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JackBeSlowHmm, wow. It's been a while. I know I had problems going from 1.0.2 to 1.1 and had to install some community library from extras-devel17:26
madMeerkat_although I'm developing for a N900 with Maemo517:26
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madMeerkat_JackBeSlow can you explain it more clearly what have you done to update it17:28
madMeerkat_?17:28
JackBeSlowSure, hold on. Let me look up the article forum post that I went off of because I can barely remember.17:29
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SpeedEvilhttp://www.rsa.com/node.aspx?id=389117:30
SpeedEvilSecurity. It is hard!17:30
JackBeSlowI had: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=67588 and http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Latest_Qt_and_Qt_mobility_evaluation_on_Maemo filed under "Fixing my QT Mobility issues (stupid dependencies)"17:31
madMeerkat_thanks a lot, Im going now, I'll read that later17:31
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madMeerkat_thanks17:31
JackBeSlowNo problem.17:32
JackBeSlow(That's why I keep notes (-: )17:32
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lardmanMohammadAG51: you were right, it appears and flashes inside the avatar17:39
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lardmanhmm, I think my Tab Android browser might have been spoofed on the paypal site17:40
lardmancrap17:40
lardmanall the more reason to get Meego up and running asap17:41
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DocScrutinizerlardman: you found the small blue phones and [SIP]s and possibly Skype meanwhile?17:53
DocScrutinizerooh17:53
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lardmandocscrutinizer: I must have missed it before as it flashes quite slowly17:54
DocScrutinizerdid you notice they are also on call log?17:54
lardmanyeah I saw that17:54
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Venemogood afternoon17:55
DocScrutinizerwhat's definitely missing is the NUMBER for multi-number contacts17:55
DocScrutinizerI'm pondering to to finally spread a dirty hotfix and pop up a hildonSystemNotifier for it17:56
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MohammadAG51lardman, flashes for ringing and incoming call, solid after answering17:56
lardmanat which point it is stuck to my ear which isn't so useful :p17:57
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* DocScrutinizer just removed the ' of ARG="ISI_SMS_ENABLE_SYSLOG=1 " in defaults/csd-sms17:58
DocScrutinizerlardman: that applies as well for 12" flashing red alert17:58
DocScrutinizer:-P17:59
lardmansure, but it would be better for the skype symbol to be larger imho while it's ringing, and it flashing isn't necessary17:59
DocScrutinizerconfig file for CSD SAT plugin - - - WTF?!?!!18:00
DocScrutinizerwho's been asking for SIM Application Toolkit?18:01
DocScrutinizercsd-call config file for CSD CALL plugin: #ARGS="autorej=1"   - - -o.O :-o18:03
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edheldilDocScrutinizer:  I was looking for SIM Toolkit18:04
DocScrutinizerls -l /usr/lib/csd/plugins18:04
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DocScrutinizerhmm, no csd-sat file in there18:06
DocScrutinizeronly in /etc/default/18:06
DocScrutinizerthat's odd18:06
edheldilsim & simppb, no sat18:07
edheldilsimpb18:07
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edheldilso quite possibly there exist SAT, which did not make it to distro, grr18:08
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DocScrutinizerindeed18:09
DocScrutinizerprobably buggy18:09
MohammadAG51I can't believe no one knows how it works18:10
edheldilstill, somebody at Nokia has it and just has not get time to finish :(18:10
DocScrutinizer51what? SAT?18:10
MohammadAG51yes18:11
MohammadAG51an implementation of it shouldn't be that hard18:11
DocScrutinizer51MohammadAG51: we 'all' know how SAT's supposed to work, but how to integrate that to CSD.... :-/18:11
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MohammadAG51why not interface directly with the modem?18:12
edheldilwhat exactly is csd?18:12
edheldil~csd18:12
DocScrutinizer51meh, because we need to cooperate with ISI and CSD18:12
edheldil~isi18:13
infoboti guess isi is \"Ingénierie des Sytèmes Informatiques\"18:13
DocScrutinizer51intelligent systems interface18:13
DocScrutinizer51the modem lowlevel stuff18:13
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DocScrutinizer51CSD is Nokia's blob dealing with ISI aiui18:14
MohammadAG51infobot, csd is Cellular Services Daemon18:14
infobotokay, MohammadAG5118:14
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crashanddieinfobot, isi is Ingénierie des Systèmes Informatiques18:16
infobot...but isi is already something else...18:16
crashanddieinfobot, isi is Ingénierie des Systèmes Informatiques18:16
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MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer51, apt-cache show csd-sat18:17
crashanddieinfobot, no isi is Ingénierie des Systèmes Informatiques18:17
infobotcrashanddie: okay18:17
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crashanddie~isi18:17
infobotisi is probably Ingénierie des Systèmes Informatiques18:17
DocScrutinizer51LOL18:17
crashanddie~snack18:17
* infobot snack? yes yeaaas yeaaaaaaaaaaas pleaaase :P18:17
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DocScrutinizer51what means "transitional package"?18:21
crashanddieDocScrutinizer, it's a proxy package18:22
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crashanddieDocScrutinizer, it's a package that has dependencies on other packages, and is uninstalled right after it's installed18:22
DocScrutinizer51GREAT18:22
DocScrutinizer51so mere BS18:22
crashanddieDocScrutinizer, why?18:22
DocScrutinizer51as it's basically empty?18:23
crashanddieyeah18:23
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DocScrutinizer51leftovr from PR0.8418:24
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chem|stDocScrutinizer51: transitional is build-essentials fyi18:26
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chem|stquiet useful for collections of things you might want to install singlehanded but for some cases retail18:28
chem|stDocScrutinizer51: including stacks with "recommended" flags which do not get installed by the base18:29
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DocScrutinizer51whatever all that means18:30
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chem|stDocScrutinizer51: you include packages not getting installed if not named, or a collection of packages the "maintainer" thinks are needed for something stacked18:33
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DocScrutinizer\o/ my load applet is gone, my applets are messed up, my profile switching is back to "normal" == useless. WTF?! Seems I should boot18:34
chem|sto_O18:34
DocScrutinizerchem|st: nm, I'm not getting it today18:34
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DocScrutinizereach of your explanations adds to the chinese in my head18:35
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DocScrutinizerfact is we got no CSD-SAT18:35
JaffaEh? A "transitional" package is when a previously populated package gets renamed and the old package becomes a meta-package for it.18:35
DocScrutinizerexcept config file and apt-cache info18:35
Jaffae.g. "exim" gets renamed to "exim4". "exim" Depends: exim4 and has no content o f it own18:36
DocScrutinizerwhatever, you're all free to apt-* * csd-sat18:36
edheldilanyway, the csd-sat package only replaces libsat and libsat0 packages, not providing any useful files, and some packages (mp-freemantle-generic-pr and cmt-firmware-rx51) depend on it18:37
DocScrutinizerto learn what it is now, here18:37
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edheldilthe question is, where is libsat?18:39
MohammadAG51Nokia HQ18:40
chem|stJaffa: that is one case18:40
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Jaffachem|st: I've never heard metapackages referred to as "transitional" before.18:44
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chem|stJaffa: most metapackages are transitional^^18:47
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Jaffachem|st: What is it that makes build-essential transitional, but ubuntu-desktop not?18:50
chem|stJaffa: ubuntu-desktop is transitional...18:51
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chem|stby definition metapackages are transitional but transitional doesn't mean meta by default18:53
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chem|sta transitional package used as single pointer like for exim -> exim"current" is not meta, is it?18:54
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, not that I can recall. Must be incidental.18:54
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chem|stGeneralAntilles: s/o may looked for a good meta name and picked the wrong one or it came from csd-sat and was cut out with those now depending18:55
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GeneralAntillesHuh?18:56
GeneralAntilleschem|st, I'm farther up in scrollback. ;)18:56
chem|stGeneralAntilles: ah sry18:56
Jaffachem|st: Can you point to this "definition" by which things are "by definition" then? I thought "metapackage" was a technique/pattern and "transitional" was a usage of that pattern for a particular purpose.18:57
Jaffachem|st: Your "by definition" is circular, so now its Citation Needed ;-)18:57
chem|stJaffa: you might lookup the meaning of the word "transitional" yourself18:57
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Jaffachem|st: In what?18:58
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lcukjaffa18:58
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lcukAn example of transitional packages in Debian18:58
lcukWhen you have to change the name of your package (e.g. for complying with policies) or you make a new package that is meant to replace the old one (e.g. gcc4.2 -> gcc4.3), you’ll have to deal with the fact that the other packages that use your old package as a dependency will not be immediately updated, or maybe never will. So, to overcome this issue, there is a useful trick: transitional packages.18:58
lcukhttp://baraujo.net/blog/?p=1718:58
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Jaffahttp://wiki.debian.org/Renaming_a_Package18:59
Jaffa^...and also18:59
Jaffalcuk: Yes - that's my definition of a transitional package.18:59
chem|styea and metapackages are used just for the case... so what is your actual question?19:00
Jaffalcuk: Given there was never a package which provided the entirety of build-essential or ubuntu-desktop, it is not to continue to provide an upgrade path after a package has been renamed.19:00
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lcukJaffa, build-essential is in the sdk repository19:01
lcukand not in -extras or -devel19:01
lcukwhich repo are you looking and where is depending upon build-essential?19:01
Jaffachem|st: The word "transitional" implies that the original is no longer needed to continue with its primary purpose.19:01
Jaffalcuk: This is a packaging discussion, not a Maemo repositories discussion19:01
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chem|stJaffa: or in other words bridge a path that is changing from time to time or newly...19:02
Jaffachem|st: However, the "original" build-essential and ubuntu-desktop continue to provide usage even after their dependencies are provided, in terms of the bundle aspect you described earlier.19:02
lcukJaffa, but your assertion that build-esential does not exist is incorrect19:02
lcukhttp://maemo.org/packages/view/build-essential/19:02
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chem|stJaffa: and transitional does not imply that it was a real package before19:02
Jaffachem|st: No, in English, "transitional" would never be used for a continuing process; nor is there any evidence on Google that anyone else refers to build-essential or ubuntu-desktop as a "transitional" descktop19:02
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Jaffalcuk: FFS, I've not asserted that. When did I assert that? I said it was a metapackage not a transitional package.19:03
chem|stJaffa: my "transition" quote was from ubuntu.org...19:03
JaffaMy argument is that all transitional packages are metapackages; chem|st argues that all metapackages are transitional.19:03
chem|st.com ssry19:03
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JaffaBut, it's so fucking semantic, I don't give a toss.19:04
chem|stJaffa: yeah19:04
JaffaBut, finally: "Transitional packages are essentially proxies – packages that pull the correct dependencies when installed and can be removed without problems as soon as the installation finishes". If you apt-get remove ubuntu-desktop, you get a loss of functionality around upgrades that you would not get from apt-get remove exim (if it transitioned to exim4)19:05
JaffaThat's from the top result for "debian transitional package" - at the URL lcuk gave earlier.19:05
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chem|stwhy would upgrades brake? either ubuntu-desktop gets pulled in again or the then installed packages get upgraded19:07
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chem|stand you wont get exim5 without "exim" but upgrades of exim4...?!19:09
pirHello, can I backup the played-stats from the default media player? (I am flashing my n900) :)19:10
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pir[Does tracker store the played-stats?]19:10
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* GAN900 sighs at political sex scandal tomfoolery.19:16
GAN900US National Media: We focus on the important issues.19:16
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chem|stpir: would think tracker file-meta has that maybe19:22
RST38hGAN: Sex scandals are positive news19:23
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GAN900Illegal wars are more relevant.19:23
RST38hGAN: National debt, jobs outlook, and three wars are negative news. Guess which ones get picked up by journos19:23
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RST38hNokia downgraded from BBB+ to BBB-19:26
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GAN900Little late19:26
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javispedromoo.19:29
RST38hmoo indeed19:29
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derfGAN900: Credit downgrades are always late.19:30
ioanis there any way to reinstall kernel-power?19:31
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RST38h"Would you buy Nokia stock for 4.71? -- I still wouldn't go anywhere near it!" - CNBC financial analyst =)19:33
* javispedro is writing a statement of purpose...19:33
javispedroI bet noone's going to like "Because everyone else is doing it".19:34
RST38hAh, but it is all about how you word it!19:34
RST38hTry "Because this is a popular topic, the effective solutions to which are in high demand"19:35
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javispedro-- you really need years of experience for that =)19:36
RST38hWell... :)19:36
Arkenoii still get "application memory full" or smth when trying to update with AM, is it CSSU to blame? apt-get upgrade works just fine.19:37
RST38hArkenoi: what does df say?19:37
Arkenoiplenty of space everywhere19:37
RST38hHm19:38
RST38hHAM has a menu option toshow the log19:38
RST38hSee if there are any peculiar messages19:38
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GeneralAntillesderf, true.19:38
GeneralAntillesEven if they do manage to come out with something useful19:39
GeneralAntillesPerception is everything in stocks.19:39
GeneralAntillesand if you aint Apple or Google. . . .19:39
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javispedro~have you bought MS stock lately?~19:39
RST38hThey won't =(19:40
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RST38hEven if they succeed with WP7, the math is badly against them (look at the percentage of the smartphone market vs total cell phones, and also at Nokia's profit margins)19:40
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javispedroAlso interesting is that like Nokia they are alinating their own dev base19:41
RST38hThey would probably have a chance with a timely and gradual Simics->Maemo transition19:41
javispedrohave you seen MSDN since the announcement of win8 html5 apps?19:41
RST38hYeah, butt hurt galore...19:41
javispedroplenty of heart-broken silverlight diehard fans.19:41
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DocScrutinizer51\o/19:43
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javispedrowait a moment. Simics->Maemo transition? =)19:44
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RST38hjavispedro: if they slowly transitioned their symbian userbase to maemo, it might have worked19:48
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RST38hright now though, they simply told everyone to leave, the show is closing.19:48
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javispedroheh -- "Open Plea by Silverlight Devs for Full Windows 8 SUpport in Addition to HTML5"19:50
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RST38hso,no native, no C#, just html5?19:51
javispedroit's funny that Nokia moved from Qt as primary platform to an ... obsoloted one.19:51
ArkenoiRST38h, have to wait for the next update now..19:51
RST38hhm19:51
RST38hno, you do not have to wait, the log stays there unless you cleared it19:51
Arkenoinope, it is empty19:52
javispedroRST38h: that's what is known from the MS press release. HTML5 only for the new w8 tablet UI, all other apps are run in the traditional UI.19:53
javispedroSadly, I bet they will relent and allow tablet Silverlight apps. Otherwise I'd be stocking popcorn.19:53
RST38hjavispedro: this probably means that the tablet UI will simplybe an application (like Media Center) running on top of the normalOS19:53
RST38hand desktop too19:54
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javispedroRST38h: and it is probably implemented that way. the difference is that w8 will run it by default at startup.19:54
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RST38hjavis: if you can run normal apps from this contraption, you will be ok19:55
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RST38hso, my guess is that HTML5 is only used for applets within this UI19:55
javispedrothat is what happens19:56
javispedrobut the media center UI will be advertised as "the next UI".19:56
javispedroe.g. http://www.buildwindows.com/19:57
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RST38hjavis: does not make it the next ui for real20:00
javispedrodunno, ms tends to make weird decisions from time to time20:02
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GAN900Wii U is one dumb name.20:28
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GAN900Wii U is one dumb name.20:28
RST38hName for an instant messaging generation20:29
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GAN900Not shortenable.20:29
GAN900Wii 2 would've been easier.20:29
MohammadAG51WU :p20:30
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MohammadAG51don't companies usually announce something before the FCC confidentiality date passes?20:31
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javispedroah, thanks for the reminder GAN90020:33
javispedroso, let's see what they have in store.20:33
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javispedroW. T. F.20:33
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SpeedEvilGAN900: Surely Wii 2 would be the Wii Wii?20:35
RST38hMohammad: Normal companies do20:35
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ShadowJKi guess html5 will make sure nobody ever writes anything overly innovative :-)20:36
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FIQ(19:28:37) (GAN900) Not shortenable.20:38
FIQw2u :D20:38
* ShadowJK wees at u20:38
* SpeedEvil wonders how many power stations will be needed for the Wii U20:39
FIQtwenty-four20:39
* javispedro wonders about how it works20:40
javispedroI bet its not streaming video20:40
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lardmanargh, bloody Linux and card readers20:43
_trineNokia Bonds have just been downgraded to junk status according to the BBC20:43
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lardmanhmm, I like the way BBB- means just above junk20:44
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lardmanlike the way we assign A levels over here now, anything below an A means a fail ;)20:44
_trinehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/1030839520:45
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_trineopps wrong headline20:45
_trinehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-1368258020:45
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lardmanthis is sooo annoying, whenever i want to format an SD card I have to boot windows as Linux doesn't recognise the partition20:51
* RST38h formatted SD cards in Linux, no problem20:51
lardmanprobably my usb card reader20:52
RST38hAside from damn Ubuntu hanging hard every now and then, when it can't read some slightly faulty card20:52
lardmanso much faffing about before I can get working on the Tab kernel again, grrrr20:52
Choomin a world where several companies provide non-commecrial VM software licenses for free and the average desktop is a dual core I see absolutely no reason to not use windows as a host OS and run linux VMs20:53
RST38hlardman: You are sitll better off than me20:53
* lardman goes to find a laptop to save needing to reboot20:53
* RST38h could not get to work on the stuff he likes for the last 6 months20:53
lardmanRST38h: why's that?20:53
lardmanah20:53
lardmanI do know that feeling though, far too busy and then knackered when I get home20:54
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b0unc3hello21:06
b0unc3I'm trying to release a new app, but I get this warning: "Warning: Promotion of experimental Qtm based applications (libqtm11 or libqtm-extras) is blocked due to conflicts with stable versions."21:06
b0unc3which are the stable versions ?21:06
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javispedrowant to bet on the specs of the wiiu controller? maybe it can run meego!! ;P21:11
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lardmanb0unc3: libqtm10 ?21:15
lardmansee what's in the Extras repo21:15
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RST38hb0unc3: it is what it says21:17
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b0unc3so libqtm-11 is the stable version ?21:18
javispedrolibqtm1021:19
javispedroprobabl21:19
b0unc3javispedro: I can't found libqtm1021:19
b0unc3find*21:19
javispedro"libqtm" without suffix exists21:19
b0unc3W: Unable to locate package libqtm , are you sure ?21:20
b0unc3btw my app depends (as far as I can tell) from libqtm-11-declarative and libqtm-11-sensors21:21
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MohammadAGiOS 5 is such a rip off21:25
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Chooms/iOS 5/Apple/21:26
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DocScrutinizerqtm and stable? MUHAHA21:32
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javispedroMohammadAG: it is just a bugfix release.21:36
javispedromarketed as the best thing ever, but that's as usual.21:36
MohammadAGjavispedro, If I were google I'd sue them21:38
GeneralAntillesFIQ, not bad. But that's three syllables.21:38
GeneralAntillesjavispedro: what an idea!21:38
GeneralAntillesActually, NGP would be pretty cool with MeeGo, too.21:39
GeneralAntillesThat controller is going to be so expensive.21:40
javispedrodepends on the specs21:40
javispedroYou could easily get it down to $10021:40
javispedroor even $80 and still be pretty decent21:40
javispedroor maybe they'll sell the controllers for a loss =)21:41
GeneralAntillesThe way the DS prints money they certainly could.21:41
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GeneralAntillesI'm excited. Only thing that bothers me about the Wii is the lack of HD.21:42
javispedroending with a real orchestra playing zelda tunes is just why over the top21:42
javispedros/why/way21:42
javispedro(but I must admit I like it...)21:42
GeneralAntilleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_%26_Zelda_Big_Band_Live21:42
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: Of course - the big question.21:43
SpeedEvilCan the controller run meego?21:43
javispedroit resembles a tablet more than a game controller21:44
javispedrowhich is, I bet, on par with the times.21:44
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GeneralAntillesCrazy, crazy times.21:45
* GeneralAntilles can't imagine would his 10-year-old self would've thought.21:45
javispedro"where is my flying car?" "why I can't be captain of the Enterprise?"21:45
GeneralAntillesI still think a Star Trek simulator is something that needs to happen.21:46
GeneralAntillesMMORPG-style.21:46
javispedrooh, the orchestra part is the _beginning_21:46
GeneralAntilles"Sit at your console and take comm messages."21:46
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: 'Oooh! I can download porn on this thing'21:46
javispedroGeneralAntilles: well, you now have the PADD thing21:46
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javispedrowoooo wiiu controller!! http://www.instructables.com/id/PADD-from-star-trek-voyager/21:47
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GeneralAntillesI like how they treated them like individual documents in Voyager.21:47
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: Imagination fail.21:47
GeneralAntilles"Why wouldn't you just have one device that has all of the information? . . ."21:47
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: Well...21:47
javispedroah, a paradox.21:48
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: To be fair - if the deveices can be replicated21:48
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: They may be 'free'21:48
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: So it may just be that a 'natural wm' may be preferred.21:48
javispedrothe most advanced of technologies -- and the easiest way of "hey, look at the document I have here" is still physically sharing the device.21:48
SpeedEvilAlso, you missed the obvious one.21:49
GeneralAntillesWell, the replicator costs deuturium, right?21:49
SpeedEvilIt's DRM.21:49
GeneralAntillesHehe21:49
SpeedEvilYou can't copy the document .21:49
javispedroYes, actually, it was the RIAA who fleet the Enterprise -- not star fleet.21:49
javispedro"to search for copyright violations on the confines of unknown space!!"21:49
GeneralAntilles© Ensign Slessinger21:50
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javispedronintendo, gimme specs21:51
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GeneralAntillesWonder if its PPC again.21:52
GeneralAntillesWhat powers Watson?21:52
javispedroIBM, so "yes".21:52
SpeedEvilI'm curious as to the power use.21:53
GeneralAntillesPOWER721:53
SpeedEvilIt used to be that the Wii used 1/10th the power of the competing platforms.21:53
GeneralAntillesProbably not high.21:53
GeneralAntillesNot much room for cooling it looks like.21:53
javispedroSpeedEvil: Yeah, I bet power usage will be the same. Because we are not going to be surprised on specs.21:53
GeneralAntillesLittle irrelevant anyway.21:54
* SpeedEvil is on a power saving kick ATM.21:54
ruskieI take it the discussion is about a Wii 2?21:54
GeneralAntillesWii U!21:54
javispedroWii Fsck U!21:54
* javispedro opens the door to more lame jokes21:54
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ruskieI wonder if it'll be actually HD...21:55
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, you suck for not coming to the last MeeGo Conference ever.21:55
GeneralAntillesruskie, 1080p21:55
javispedroGeneralAntilles: you suck for _coming_ to the last!21:55
GeneralAntillesTrue21:56
javispedro;P21:56
ruskiehmm omg... someone was busy on the wikipedia page21:56
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vi__hello21:57
javispedrothe nintendo e3 site is a horribly mess, I click on "WiiU" and get "Mario Kart ... for 3DS".21:57
GeneralAntillesYou can't have a Wii U.21:57
vi__who here has experiance of connecting a gamepad to drnoksnes?21:57
GeneralAntillesIt knows this, you know this, so here's a 3DS thing instead.21:57
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javispedroit would be best if it were to just advertise me some wiizelda, which I'd buy...21:58
vi__gamepad works (i can cat /devi/input/js0) but i dont know how to get drnoksnes too 'see' it.21:58
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javispedrovi__: which kind of gamepad?21:58
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javispedrovi__: ah. I do think I ever finished joystick support :(21:59
vi__javispedro: it is just a standard 8 button controller that appears on /dev/input/js021:59
vi__gamepad works (i can cat /devi/input/js0) but i dont know how to get drnoksnes too 'see' it.21:59
vi__javispedro: say what??21:59
vi__javispedro: but it is based on snes9x right?22:00
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javispedroit is actually a horrible merge of several code bases..22:00
vi__2 gamepads+tv out+hen==total bro mode pocket console.22:00
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vi__javispedro: ok22:01
javispedrotry to get an app that maps joy buttons to x key presses, should exist.22:01
javispedroor implement joypad buttons on drnok yourself, should be trivial.22:01
vi__javispedro: good thinking22:01
vi__javispedro: any suggestions of programs to start looking at?22:02
GeneralAntillesTeehee: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/media/2011/06/mounted.jpg22:02
javispedrovi__: wiimote stuff22:02
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vi__javispedro: thankyou22:02
RST38hGeneral: Let me guess, he is using it for his pet gerbil?22:03
javispedroGeneralAntilles: bah, was expecting a wiiu controller joke!22:03
vi__javispedro: did you also create ines?22:03
FIQI see that you're all talking about E3/ninty/whatever22:03
javispedroDo you need some help with that?22:04
javispedro</clippy mode>22:04
javispedrovi__: nope22:04
GeneralAntillesvi__, that's somebody else chatting right now. :P22:04
GeneralAntilles#maemo - it's where the pros go22:04
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* MohammadAG wonders what to call the DBus path for sociality22:06
vi__d22:06
GeneralAntillesNook Color is marginally less useless withe Phiremod.22:07
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GeneralAntillesHarmattan better still have "tap outside to close dialog".22:08
GeneralAntillesBecause I can't stop trying to do that on every other platform.22:08
javispedrodo not worry, ios 17 will have that too.22:08
* javispedro realizes the wiiu controller ALSO HAS THE WRIST STRAP22:09
ruskiehahaha22:09
ruskieso as not to break the screen I guess22:09
javispedrooh, good point.22:09
javispedrothe irony....22:09
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javispedrowii controller breaks screens, wiiu has breakable screen...22:09
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GeneralAntillesHehe22:10
* GeneralAntilles taps furiously outside a dialog on Android.22:10
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vi__javispedro: thankyou for your help.22:11
* javispedro grabs some popcorn and heads straight to a wii fans forum22:11
javispedrovi__: np22:11
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* lardman curses the lack of root on Android22:17
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* hiemanshu curses android22:17
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javispedroooooh, the wiiu controller is RESISTIVE22:19
* javispedro is sold22:19
javispedrowhere does this miyamoto guy want me to deposit my money?22:19
GeneralAntillesSomewhere in the future.22:20
GeneralAntillesIsn't it terrible?22:20
RST38hSomething is telling mee that this Wii U controller is just another GBA22:20
RST38hOr NDS22:20
RST38hOn the inside, I mean22:20
* GeneralAntilles hopes the Nokia announcement on the 21st will be "shipping today".22:20
GeneralAntilles"Oh, and some cheap/free ones for people we like."22:21
javispedro(even though I have to ponder who is the genius selling a 6 inch SINGLE touch gaming device...)22:21
GeneralAntillesRST38h, seems probable.22:21
RST38h"There's no such thing as a perfectly secure operating system, but security experts agree  somewhat grudgingly in some cases  that iOS, Apple's mobile operating system, is the most secure commercial OS today, mobile or desktop."22:21
RST38h== Slashdot22:21
javispedroRST38h: meanwhile, iOS5 cracked minutes after release.22:21
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javispedroslashdot runs that??22:22
javispedropfft.22:22
RST38hjavispedro: Never let reality spoil the grandieur of your theories!22:22
javispedroI bet the editor was high. On trolling.22:22
GeneralAntilles /. is completely irrelevant these days.22:22
* RST38h thanks Nintendo for putting a plain little red LED into WiiU22:24
javispedro"the Wii U2 -- it comes with aBono"22:24
javispedros/a//22:24
infobotjavispedro meant: "the Wii U2 -- it comes with Bono"22:24
lardmanargh, bloody Android, bloody SD card formatting22:24
RST38hThose stupid super bright blue LEDs everybody uses now makes me want to kill people.22:24
javispedroRST38h: where are you seeing the little red? I still see a ultra bright blue dot on the official art22:25
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javispedroeven on the controller22:25
RST38hjavispedro: http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/07/nintendo-wii-u-console-eyes-on/22:25
javispedrothat is a button22:25
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javispedroa button that btw on the wii1 is hidden behind the flip-door. so I suspect the externals are provisional.22:26
javispedrounless they now use compact flash cards or the like which could explain an enlarged memory card slot..22:26
Macerword22:26
RST38hOh no22:27
RST38hBlue LEDs. MUST... KILL... PEOPLE.... BRAINZZZZZ!!!22:27
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Maceruhm22:27
RST38hjavispedro: Maybe the slot accepts NES carts? =)22:27
javispedroRST38h: I have a BenQ TFT that has one such über bright 2cm blue led right at the bottom bezel part.22:27
Macerwii u?22:28
javispedroRST38h: no way how you look at the screen the blue light always hits your eye.22:28
RST38hjavis: Similar here, the BBK DVD recorder comes with a blue led bright enough to read at night22:28
Maceris that the name of nintendo's new one?22:28
GeneralAntillesRST38h: seriously. What is with the Koreans and those blue LEDs?22:28
RST38hjavis: fortunately, the damn thing died a couple of months ago, and the LG recorder uses red22:28
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GeneralAntillesjavispedro: I covered the blue LEDs on my LCDs with cheese wax.22:29
javispedroI use tape22:29
RST38hGeneral: They came into fashion at the same time with the semi-transparent bluish casings, rtight after Steve Jobs came up with a blue iMac22:29
javispedrostd adhesive tape =)22:29
RST38hGeneral: The price point for blue leds went down around then, and the asians starts putting them in, as a sign of high quality22:30
Macerwhat's wrong with blue leds?22:30
RST38hMacer: too bright, too non-standard UI-wise22:31
Macernon standard ui wise? :)22:31
javispedroMacer: this: http://blackwallpaperz.com/LilBlack/Centered-Blue-Explosion-Black-Wallpaper-1.jpg22:31
Macerthere are standard leds?22:31
RST38hMacer: standard UI coding is green (normal), yellow (attention), red (fuckedup)22:31
GeneralAntillesjavispedro: I was eating one of those mini gouda wheels when I finally snapped. *g*22:31
Macerbut no drives have that type of led control22:32
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Macerwell. some probably do22:32
RST38hMacer: it is just general rules22:32
Macerwho made the standard!22:32
Macer?22:32
Maceriso?22:32
RST38hMacer: when you do air traffic control sw, for example, this is the first rule your client explains to you22:32
GeneralAntillesWho the hell is noaheverett and when the hell did I start following him on Twitter. . . .22:32
RST38hMacer: 3 colors. The rest of the UI needs to be done in something that does not bleed user's eyes out22:33
RST38hMacer: And bright blue isn't it.22:33
MacerGeneralAntilles: about right after you broke up with your ex and she started following gay men on your acct on twitter22:33
GeneralAntillesMacer: shit!22:33
Macer:) first rule of breaking up... lock your computers and phones22:34
Macerand change all the passwords she knows about22:34
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javispedroof course, the older controller being called the wiimote, this one should be called the wiipad.22:34
Macercmon man... women are horrible.22:34
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GeneralAntillesMacer, that doesn't sound cynical at all.22:34
MohammadAGhow do I terminate a zombie process?22:35
RST38hsame way as a relationship22:35
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RST38hyou REBOOT.22:35
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javispedroMohammadAG: that, you will learn in university.22:36
yigalkill22:36
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MohammadAGthe zombie process or the relationship part?22:36
RST38hkill will not do anything to a zombie process22:36
RST38hreboot22:36
yigaloh, that's too bad22:36
Macerthat is an ugly remote22:37
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Macerthat pad with the sceen looking thing22:37
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RST38hwait,so, no more waving about with WiiU?22:37
Maceris that the new wiimote?22:37
javispedroRST38h: it comes with wrist strap for a reason!22:37
yigalkill the parent process22:37
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MacerRST38h: i was going to ask the same22:38
RST38hjavispedro: you are supposed to wave about with this... thing?22:38
javispedroRST38h: $120 thing22:38
javispedroRST38h: yes22:38
Macerheh.. it looks like .... the atari jaguar remote :)22:38
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Macerthe reason for the jaguar's failure22:38
javispedromaybe its the master plan from nintendo to print more money22:38
javispedrosell an expensive controller22:39
javispedroinduce users to wave expensive controller around22:39
javispedro3)22:39
RST38hAh come on, it is not the reasong for the jaguar failure22:39
javispedro4) profit!22:39
Maceri am sure a lot of people will wait on this one22:39
Macerwhat are the specs of the device?22:39
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Maceris it at least as good as a 360 yet? :)22:39
RST38hjavispedro: make a special button on the controller saying SMOKE22:39
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RST38hjavispedro: Slowly burn the controller until it is non-functional22:40
RST38hREPEAT.22:40
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Maceri think they just made a different ps3 controller with a screen on it22:41
javispedroI think only the steveness can do that22:41
Macercan you use old wiimotes on it?22:41
javispedroyeah, but this remembers me22:42
javispedroanyone saw more than one wiipad connected to the same console?22:42
javispedroif they're really streaming video as the marketing person said, that could be a limitation.22:42
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RST38h"Is There a New Geek Anti-Intellectualism?" -- Slashdot22:48
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lardmanaaaaargh, why oh why can't I open a device that dmesg tells me is there22:48
* RST38h eeks, reaches for the gun22:48
lardmanbloody card readers *grumble*22:49
javispedroRST38h: I see today's slashdot is a minefield22:49
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RST38hjavis: feeding grounds for trolls22:49
javispedroobviously CmdrTaco was awake today22:49
RST38hAh, I see what the mean by "anti intellectualism": all those college dropout sysadmins and web coders saying that "college isn't worth the effort"22:50
lardmanhmm, I think I'll need to use the N900 to format it22:50
javispedrolardman: why don't you use good old fdisk (the linuxtools one, not the MS abomination)22:50
javispedrolardman: ignore every complain it makes until you can get to the part where you can destroy fscking everything and create new plain old mbr22:51
lardmanjavispedro: I'm trying to do this under Linux, but it just says it can't find the device22:51
lardmanis really rather frustrating22:52
javispedrowhat device?22:52
javispedrowhich program? fdisk?22:52
lardmanuSD card in  card reader22:52
lardmanyeah fdisk22:52
lardmanand also mkfs*22:52
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javispedro/dev/sd[abcdefgh..?]22:52
lardmanyep22:52
javispedroand you type /dev/sd? and fdisk complains about "No such device"?22:53
javispedroer..22:53
javispedro*type "fdisk /dev/sd?"22:53
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lardmanno i did fdisk /dev/sdf22:55
lardmanas that is apparently the device name22:55
lardman[ 9015.967119] sd 12:0:0:0: [sdf] Attached SCSI removable disk22:56
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SpeedEvilThat does not mean the disk has media in22:56
lardmanwell sometimes it is mounted and I can see the contents, then as soon as I umount it I can no longer access the partition or device using mkfs/fsck or fdisk respectively22:57
javispedrothis rings a bell22:57
javispedrolardman: do you umount it using nautilus/gnome?22:57
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lardmanyeah22:57
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lardmanI'm guessing that might be a mistake?22:58
javispedrotry umounting it using cmd line -- I remember recent nautilus does "something"22:58
javispedroyep22:58
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lardmanhmm, unfortauntely it's unwilling to mount now22:59
lardmanI think the fs is knackered22:59
lardmanvfat rubbish22:59
javispedroseemingly they try to do the same as the windows eject disk so that devices flush buffers, etc. but this has the side effect that some devices fail to do anything afterwards22:59
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lardmanand it's still not willing to be accessed using fdisk22:59
javispedrounplug/replug cycle22:59
lardmanyeah done that a few times22:59
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lardmanI'll stick it in the n900 and format it there, hopefully they we'll be back to somthing useful23:00
javispedrothen, intermittent failure = bad cable, dust in slot, etc.23:00
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lardmanthough my Tab doesn't recognise it at all (and this is all just so I can root the tab so I can get on with Meego dev for it)23:00
lardmanhmm, perhaps I should dig out an old and small camera card23:01
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lardmananyway /me heads to watch CSI, will let you know how I get on later23:01
lardmanthanks for the thoughts javispedro re Nautilus23:01
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javispedrocya23:05
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GeneralAntillesRST38h: "anti-intellectualism" is is such a bullshit word.23:07
SpeedEvilIt's two words.23:08
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stef_104hi, if anyone can help, I got a warning message of low space on email and that email wd be disabled until freed up space. Which I did. But impossible to download from account IMAP23:43
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stef_104i tried gconf but account seems enabled there. I just cannot find how to re-enable account23:44
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