IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2011-05-30

* MoonTiger just figured out the make clean thing		00:00
lcuk	lol MoonTiger	00:03
MoonTiger	seriously... its amazing what you learn when you rtfm	00:03
dangergrrl	sigh	00:03
MoonTiger	i never do ... i just jump in and start modifying code	00:03
dangergrrl	i wish i had time to spend playing with code	00:03
MoonTiger	never really learn the tools and such from basics	00:03
MoonTiger	dangergrrl, i dont have a lot of time but my gf is away and its the weekend	00:04
dangergrrl	i have to go try to lift an 800lb motorcycle instead	00:04
dangergrrl	well, i will be able to in a day or two	00:04
MoonTiger	:)	00:04
dangergrrl	i have an oil leak and some superficial parts to mount	00:04
dangergrrl	radiator shroud bottom cover etc	00:05
dangergrrl	need to look at where the oil is leaking from	00:05
MoonTiger	eeesh sounds like fun	00:06
MoonTiger	what bike is it?	00:06
MoonTiger	a harley right	00:06
MoonTiger	?	00:06
dangergrrl	working on a gold wing is not fun	00:06
MoonTiger	ahhh	00:06
MoonTiger	the bike with a reverse gear	00:06
MoonTiger	:)	00:06
dangergrrl	they have plastic covering everything	00:06
dangergrrl	i bet an electraglide would not be fun either	00:06
* MoonTiger now understand make install too		00:06
MoonTiger	my last bike was a R1	00:07
MoonTiger	:)	00:07
dangergrrl	actually the starter motor runs the reverse on mine	00:07
dangergrrl	the new ones have airbags	00:07
MoonTiger	airbags? on a bike??	00:07
dangergrrl	well, the plan is for some major touring	00:07
* MoonTiger goes back to makefiles		00:07
MoonTiger	ahhhhh	00:07
MoonTiger	where?	00:07
dangergrrl	iǘe seen the crash test videos	00:08
dangergrrl	they help	00:08
dangergrrl	i think the canam spyder has engine powered reverse	00:08
dangergrrl	but itś like auto transmission	00:08
dangergrrl	so glad i did not get a 500cc vespa	00:09
MoonTiger	do they make vespas at 500cc	00:09
MoonTiger	?	00:09
dangergrrl	yes	00:09
dangergrrl	still cvt	00:09
dangergrrl	and flat floor in front of the seat	00:09
dangergrrl	no shifting	00:10
dangergrrl	but i bet they are still pretty fun	00:10
MoonTiger	wouldnt work for me	00:10
dangergrrl	not as fun as a bike with manual transmission	00:10
MoonTiger	i like kicking up and down the gears	00:10
dangergrrl	me too	00:10
MoonTiger	i have the clutch mark on all my boots	00:11
MoonTiger	:)	00:11
dangergrrl	i tried a dirt bike on the streets around campus in college	00:11
dangergrrl	fell and scraped the crap out of my ankle	00:11
MoonTiger	a real dirt bike?	00:11
MoonTiger	i rode one near moses lake in washington state for a day or two ... was real fun but scarey	00:12
MoonTiger	they have some wicked dunes there	00:12
dangergrrl	waited almost 30 years to ride again	00:13
dangergrrl	got a dui that night on account of my banged up ankle and spinning my tired on a wet road at a stop light	00:13
dangergrrl	tires	00:13
dangergrrl	(in my car, not the dirt bike which was illegal on the streets)	00:13
dangergrrl	i was sober tbh	00:13
dangergrrl	but i had an empty vidka bottle in my back seat	00:13
MoonTiger	america is so retarded for the open containe laws	00:13
dangergrrl	well it was in houston we were riding it on roads near uni of houston	00:13
MoonTiger	texas is even worse	00:13
dangergrrl	texas open container outside a vehicle is legal	00:14
dangergrrl	most cities	00:14
dangergrrl	you can walk to 7-11 and buy a beer and drink it walking home	00:14
MoonTiger	im glad i left there now :) back to the land(s) of the sane	00:14
dangergrrl	but they nail people for public intoxication	00:14
dangergrrl	sometimes just for being mexican	00:15
dangergrrl	or gay or black	00:15
dangergrrl	but they can charge anyone at any time for PI	00:16
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dangergrrl	my boots have a pad for the shifter	00:16
MoonTiger	lcuk ... makefiles have recursive variables ffs!	00:16
lcuk	MoonTiger, ?	00:16
dangergrrl	isn'that normal?	00:16
MoonTiger	they have recursive variables ... wtf?	00:17
MoonTiger	i never heard of a recursive variable before	00:17
* MoonTiger shakes head		00:17
dangergrrl	automake does that	00:17
MoonTiger	thats what im learning	00:17
dangergrrl	wait itś conditionally defined and recurses more than once?	00:17
dangergrrl	what does meego use for init?	00:19
dangergrrl	i know i saw upstart roll by in the maemo sdk	00:19
DocScrutinizer	upstart aka initctl (?) for maemo, nfc about meego	00:19
dangergrrl	systemd would give faster boot times	00:20
wmarone	it does use systemd	00:20
dangergrrl	but i think is a bad idea	00:20
MoonTiger	christ ... jquery, php and now makefiles ... all using the $ sigh	00:20
dangergrrl	so there are no shell scripts?	00:20
DocScrutinizer	UUUAERGHH, it's a lennart poettering thing	00:20
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MoonTiger	this is fun ... lots of stuff is becoming clear	00:20
wmarone	one sec	00:20
wmarone	actually	00:20
wmarone	1.2 is on Upstart, going forward they're moving to systemd	00:20
merlin1991	trunk is systemd already	00:21
dangergrrl	bad	00:21
dangergrrl	why not extend busybox instead?	00:21
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DocScrutinizer	only when there L.P. on the outside, you know there's ****inside ;-P	00:21
dangergrrl	make it into initsh	00:21
wmarone	because it's busybox	00:21
dangergrrl	well systemd claims faster boot times	00:22
merlin1991	DocScrutinizer: were does your L.P. hate come from? :D	00:22
dangergrrl	partially due to less forking	00:22
DocScrutinizer	pffff	00:22
DocScrutinizer	you're ASKING?	00:23
merlin1991	yes	00:23
dangergrrl	we can have less forking in sh scripts if we put more in busybox	00:23
andre__	DocScrutinizer, I'm very sorry for you that your pulseaudio integration was screwed up by the packager of your distribution and that you know target the wrong person for your problems. Not.	00:23
DocScrutinizer	pukeaudio: L.P. avahi: L.P. systemd: L.P.	00:23
wmarone	dangergrrl: one of the main things with meego is moving away from busybox (and all of its crippled facilities)	00:23
dangergrrl	but why not turn busybox or even ash or gads bash	00:24
dangergrrl	into initsh	00:24
DocScrutinizer	andre__: PA been screwed up on every system I've seen so far, INCL maemo	00:24
wmarone	what's bad about systemd, anyway?	00:24
dangergrrl	and integrate most of the things that init needs	00:24
DocScrutinizer	NIH shit	00:24
andre__	DocScrutinizer, not really. :)	00:24
dangergrrl	wmarone: booting is no longer hackable using traditional unix skills	00:25
merlin1991	DocScrutinizer: i see the point about pa, have nfc about avahi, but don't see why systemd is evil	00:25
dangergrrl	init is very simple	00:25
DocScrutinizer	why do we need systemd when we can improve/augment upstart?	00:25
dangergrrl	all of booting is configurable by editing text files	00:25
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dangergrrl	most of it is implemented in text files	00:26
DocScrutinizer	why do we need PA while ALSA just works fine	00:26
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: same reason as PA	00:26
dangergrrl	why not find ways to make that faster without changing itś face?	00:26
DocScrutinizer	and WTF do we need avahi for at all?	00:26
andre__	yes, and why don't we just stay in the 70es and want no progress at all? why this internet thingy at all?	00:26
DocScrutinizer	BS	00:27
andre__	letters also worked fine for me! I don't need this for my limited usecases!	00:27
DocScrutinizer	ALSA is evidently better than PA	00:27
dangergrrl	i have not come up against avahi	00:27
jacekowski	pulseaudio has less features than alsa	00:27
andre__	assuming that BS refers to what you've written: cool that you realize	00:27
jacekowski	and it's slower	00:27
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: exactly	00:27
dangergrrl	pulseaudio has not given my trouble on the n900	00:28
jacekowski	it's just a buggy fucked up frontend for alsa	00:28
dangergrrl	on my pc it fails a lot	00:28
jacekowski	dangergrrl: except using up 50% of cpu	00:28
dangergrrl	jacekowski: haven't caught that	00:28
andre__	"DVDs have this default disclaimer at the beginning. I can't skip that by fast forward! That's why I prefer VHS tapes!"	00:28
andre__	oh yesh.	00:28
DocScrutinizer	since avahi I got issues on my networks I never had vefore, while I've never seen any benefit	00:28
dangergrrl	jacekowski: on my pc it starts giving my audio odd harmonics after a while	00:29
DocScrutinizer	and for systemd... ohmy	00:29
dangergrrl	and it gets worse with time	00:29
dangergrrl	i read the paper on systemd	00:29
jacekowski	andre__: dvd has some measurable quality improvements	00:29
nox-	andre__, http://www.geekologie.com/image.php?path=/2010/02/25/piracy-full.jpg	00:29
jacekowski	andre__: pa is based on same alsa	00:29
andre__	nox-, hehe, had that one in mind, yes :)	00:29
dangergrrl	i think he answers many of the right questions the wrong way	00:29
jacekowski	andre__: and it's just another layer of complexity	00:29
nox-	andre__, :)	00:29
andre__	jacekowski, well... that's very generalizing and partially wrong	00:30
dangergrrl	so	00:30
dangergrrl	i am about to have only a n900 to work on for a while	00:30
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dangergrrl	it it possible to make a user maintained maemo+upstart for >1.2?	00:31
jacekowski	andre__: name one thing that PA is giving me or anybody	00:31
jacekowski	andre__: that alsa couldn't	00:31
dangergrrl	jacekowski: redirection over ip	00:31
jacekowski	positive thing to be precise	00:31
jacekowski	alsa can do that	00:31
DocScrutinizer	audio over TCP ;-P	00:31
dangergrrl	but i can not get it to work	00:31
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jacekowski	dangergrrl: alsa has drivers for that as well	00:31
dangergrrl	alsa can do tcp by itself?	00:31
jacekowski	yes	00:32
dangergrrl	then what does pulse do besides break?	00:32
DocScrutinizer	also, do you think more tha 0.0001% of users need this?	00:32
jacekowski	there is virtual sound card driver	00:32
jacekowski	that does that and some other stuff	00:32
andre__	jacekowski, errm, e.g. applications that don't block the audio hardware anymore? (except for crappy closed flash maybe)	00:32
jacekowski	andre__: emm	00:33
jacekowski	andre__: alsa does that as well	00:33
DocScrutinizer	and always did	00:34
andre__	that's news to me compared to last time I checked this whole PA debate (probably a year ago)	00:34
DocScrutinizer	that's been news to L.P. as well	00:34
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jacekowski	andre__: dmix was added to alsa in 1999	00:35
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DocScrutinizer	BUT BUT, PA can do >>per app volume<< pffff http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/twinklephone/message/1731	00:36
andre__	ah, since alsa 1.0.9	00:36
DocScrutinizer	WUT?	00:37
jacekowski	andre__: no	00:37
jacekowski	andre__: since alsa 0.0.9	00:37
jacekowski	andre__: for 12 years now	00:37
andre__	"For ALSA 1.0.9rc2 and higher you don't need to setup dmix for analogue output"	00:37
andre__	according to http://alsa.opensrc.org/Dmix	00:37
DocScrutinizer	yeah hoe TERRIBLE	00:37
andre__	DocScrutinizer, +1	00:38
DocScrutinizer	before you had to get a def for dmix in /etc/asoundrc	00:38
dangergrrl	alsa can not do per app mixing?	00:38
jacekowski	andre__: since 1.0.9rc2 dmix is enabled by default	00:38
DocScrutinizer	UNBEARABLE	00:38
jacekowski	dangergrrl: yes it can	00:38
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DocScrutinizer	dangergrrl: see my link!!	00:38
dangergrrl	then why does anyone need pulse?	00:38
DocScrutinizer	nobody needs this sh*t	00:39
jacekowski	dangergrrl: nobody needs it	00:39
jacekowski	dangergrrl: that's the thing	00:39
andre__	I like it.	00:39
dangergrrl	then i suppose i am running gentoo with the sabayon overlay and USE=-pulse then	00:40
dangergrrl	when i find the bandwidth	00:40
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DocScrutinizer	ok, when "I like it" was the last argument for PA, then	00:41
DocScrutinizer	done, what's next	00:41
jacekowski	and besides, pulse forces you to do software mixing even if your HW can do HW mixing	00:42
jacekowski	and my sound blaster can do full HW mixing	00:42
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: good point	00:42
andre__	DocScrutinizer: I consider "I like it" slightly less childish and more argumentative then kids writing "nobody needs this sh*t"	00:42
DocScrutinizer	well, bot is a statement. The relative relevance for the world though is obviously different	00:43
DocScrutinizer	both*	00:43
andre__	hehe, agreed :)	00:44
DocScrutinizer	and thanks for "kids", I'm feeling miuch younger now, I can use it :-D	00:44
andre__	haha	00:45
andre__	you're welcome :)	00:45
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, you've got PM	00:46
dangergrrl	lol	00:47
dangergrrl	i somehow doubt DocScrutinizer is a kid	00:47
dangergrrl	sorry	00:48
dangergrrl	i do not know for sure but if he is then like WOW	00:48
jacekowski	afaik he's more like 40ish	00:52
dangergrrl	i guessed that actually	00:53
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MoonTiger	do pp; really write these makefiles by hand??	01:08
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MoonTiger	lcuk, you still here?	01:13
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MohammadAG	MoonTiger, simple ones, yes	01:17
MoonTiger	MohammadAG, it makes sense now that i look at how they are made ... and the integration of pkg-confg means you dont need to mess with inc and lib paths right?	01:17
MohammadAG	yep	01:18
MoonTiger	wow that is sweet	01:18
MoonTiger	i think i can get the hang of this	01:18
MohammadAG	:D	01:18
MoonTiger	heh i know right? welcome to the 1990's party moon	01:19
MoonTiger	:)	01:19
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lcuk	MoonTiger, i am thinking	01:24
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merlin1991	anyone else in here thinking R&D means research and destroy?	01:34
SpeedEvil	?	01:35
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merlin1991	SpeedEvil: R&D mode on the device, some sources say that's research and develop mode, but imo it's research and destroy :P	01:35
infobot	DocScrutinizer: infobot joined!	01:35
SpeedEvil	Ah	01:36
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DocScrutinizer	repent&desist	01:37
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MoonTiger	night all :)	01:39
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DocScrutinizer	o/	01:39
NIN101	I love the read poettering bashing	01:39
cityligh1s	where to find morning breakfast open at 7?	01:42
cityligh1s	how can I even ask google?	01:42
DocScrutinizer	here. If it were 7o here. Alas it's shortly after midnight and I'll have a hard time finding breakfast now	01:43
DocScrutinizer	nevertheless I have to try... o/	01:44
cityligh1s	well as you maybe from munchen...	01:44
cityligh1s	s/maybe/may ba/	01:45
infobot	cityligh1s meant: well as you may ba from munchen...	01:45
compengi	does anyone use maemo sdk on ubuntu 11.04 64bit?	01:47
* MohammadAG raises hand		01:47
compengi	MohammadAG, how did you install it?	01:48
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MohammadAG	compengi, carried it over from Ubuntu 10.10, why?	01:54
MohammadAG	I installed it on some other PC running Natty iirc	01:54
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Macer	MohammadAG: i couldn't get it working in natty	01:57
MohammadAG	what errors did you get?	01:58
Macer	i dont remember... i just use the vm	01:58
Macer	which runs an ancient ver of ubuntu	01:58
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MohammadAG	8.10 I think	01:59
Macer	the sdk needs to be fixed... can the cssu people fix it?	01:59
Macer	:)	01:59
MohammadAG	can't fix it if I don't know what's broken	01:59
MohammadAG	I mean, it works fine for me, and I guided a friend through it the other day and it worked	01:59
Macer	updating the install scripts for more modern linux would help	01:59
Macer	MohammadAG: do you have a wiki on how to do it?	02:01
MohammadAG	~maemosdk	02:01
infobot	methinks maemosdk is http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo5_Final_Installation	02:01
Macer	tried that. install script doesnt work	02:01
Macer	keeps dying out when newgrp	02:02
MohammadAG	the script or the GUI?	02:02
Macer	and then it tries to do the pkg install	02:02
Macer	the script	02:02
Macer	dpkg always gives out errors	02:02
Macer	it downloads the debs	02:02
Macer	then tries to install and gives a million dep errors	02:02
MohammadAG	sudo error I guess	02:03
MohammadAG	sudoers/visudo	02:03
MohammadAG	I remember that on 10.04 but not 11.04	02:03
Macer	the user i am installing for is in sudoers	02:03
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Macer	but yeah... that is the problem i am having installing on my natty box so i use the vm	02:04
Macer	i need to learn how to make debs	02:04
Macer	but i kind of lost my thunder for it all as i felt like pulling out my teeth with installing the sdk	02:05
Macer	not to mention using a vm hinders the speed	02:05
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MohammadAG	Macer, no, I meant the problem is related to sudoers in scratchbox	02:07
Macer	oh	02:07
Macer	well.. once the script goes.. it goes	02:07
Macer	the target is created and it goes on auto pilot	02:07
Macer	so am i supposed to finish with the error and go into the sb target and fix /etc/sudoers and try to apt-get everything?	02:08
Macer	well... that is what needs fixing ;)	02:09
Macer	heh	02:09
Macer	bbl	02:09
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MohammadAG	Macer, no, you should fix that before the script even starts	02:16
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cehteh	find: unrecognized: -exec	03:58
cehteh	busybox crap	03:58
merlin1991	~messybox	04:00
infobot	messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils	04:00
merlin1991	:D	04:00
cehteh	yesyes	04:00
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Macer	http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1147415	05:25
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* SpeedEvil posts 'where can I download the linux 3 kernel with android support' on TMO.		05:32
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DocScrutinizer	yo	05:34
DocScrutinizer	apt-get install findutils-gnu	05:35
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# echo $PATH	05:36
DocScrutinizer	/usr/bin/gnu:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin/X11	05:36
DocScrutinizer	WTF	05:36
DocScrutinizer	FTW	05:37
DocScrutinizer	;-P	05:37
* DocScrutinizer idly ponders /usr/local optification		05:38
DocScrutinizer	also general optification sanitizing:	05:41
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/gnu/\|wc -l	05:41
DocScrutinizer	119	05:41
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/gnu/\|grep lrwx\|wc -l	05:41
DocScrutinizer	113	05:41
DocScrutinizer	.	05:42
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/gnu/\|grep -v lrwx	05:42
DocScrutinizer	insgesamt 124	05:42
DocScrutinizer	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18680 2010-04-21 12:14 cmp	05:42
DocScrutinizer	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 61316 2010-04-21 12:14 diff	05:42
DocScrutinizer	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18960 2010-04-21 12:14 diff3	05:42
DocScrutinizer	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 43 2010-03-19 22:50 rgrep	05:42
DocScrutinizer	-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 18204 2010-04-21 12:14 sdiff	05:42
DocScrutinizer	.	05:43
DocScrutinizer	that's sick	05:43
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DocScrutinizer	~optification	05:44
infobot	methinks optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence3	05:44
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DocScrutinizer	~optification	05:48
infobot	from memory, optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit and partitioning is FUBAR, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3	05:48
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DocScrutinizer	you really should have a look at http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 - how can it be Nokia managed to put binaries into /usr/bin that are clearly needed before /usr gets mounted, and then - instead of doing the right thing and just move the binary from /usr/bin to /bin - they come up with this optification abomination ""because we need some of the binaries of /usr/bin to exist on rootfs"" ::mad::	05:54
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DocScrutinizer	it the most nobe duty of a distro maintainer to sort such things out in a sane way	05:55
DocScrutinizer	noble*	05:55
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DocScrutinizer	not to go "ohmy, developer of foo pkg decided to install it to /usr/bin/foo. We need it during boot, so let's invent this optification chimera crack nightmare	05:58
DocScrutinizer	best thing of some Nokia departments must have been their drug dealer ;-P	05:59
DocScrutinizer	I was hoping for a clear cut to clean this up on PR1.2, then again on PR1.3 - now it's clear they love it the way it is, and this is one of the batshit crazy things of maemo that never is going to change again for the better	06:04
DocScrutinizer	unless we roll it up again in CSSU	06:05
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin\|wc -l	06:07
DocScrutinizer	748	06:07
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin\|grep lrwx\|wc -l	06:07
DocScrutinizer	358	06:07
DocScrutinizer	= ~390 pkg NOT optified in /usr/bin	06:09
DocScrutinizer	WHY?	06:09
DocScrutinizer	meh	06:09
DocScrutinizer	useless effort	06:10
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DocScrutinizer	just a last word, in case there's been something not as utterly clear as it should've been: this rationale applies to ALL /usr/*	06:12
DocScrutinizer	I.E. /usr has to be a mountpoint, nothing else	06:13
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DocScrutinizer	usr = Unix Sharable Resources	06:23
DocScrutinizer	sharable implies it might not be available on local machine all the time, as it's shared from elsewhere	06:23
Sc0rpius	holy	06:24
DocScrutinizer	so even the name implies it's a mountpoint	06:24
Sc0rpius	I've been using Unix since like 1979 and I never knew usr meant that	06:24
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DocScrutinizer	you got a better definition of what this TLA means?	06:25
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DocScrutinizer	http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#THEUSRHIERARCHY	06:27
Sc0rpius	not even there it says usr means that	06:28
DocScrutinizer	no, it just says "shareable"	06:28
Sc0rpius	yup	06:28
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DocScrutinizer	it's actually not easy to spot exactly where it came from	06:28
DocScrutinizer	might also be "unix/shareable/readonly" or whatever	06:29
Sc0rpius	so	06:29
DocScrutinizer	I've heard the Unix-Shareable-resources explanation though	06:29
Sc0rpius	would you buy an N9 if it comes with MeeGo?	06:29
Sc0rpius	and those 64 GB and dual 1GHz processor?	06:29
SpeedEvil	'MeeGo' is a hard definition.	06:29
DocScrutinizer	prolly not	06:30
Sc0rpius	hmm	06:30
SpeedEvil	It seems likely that what it will come with is nokias fork of meego, as it forked 12 months ago or so.	06:30
DocScrutinizer	a) meego handset-UX is premature	06:30
SpeedEvil	With some maemo bits jammed in.	06:30
DocScrutinizer	b) this device for sure comes with a capacitive touchscreen	06:30
Sc0rpius	and you want a resistive screen?	06:31
DocScrutinizer	every single day, yes	06:31
Sc0rpius	N900 is resistive?	06:31
DocScrutinizer	yes	06:31
Sc0rpius	but not multitouch	06:31
Sc0rpius	:(	06:31
DocScrutinizer	bah	06:31
derf	I'd like to be able to touch _one_ spot accurately, before I worry about more than one.	06:32
Sc0rpius	I just care it supports multitouch	06:32
DocScrutinizer	a) mt is worthless without proper integration into OS , and b) resistive can do mt as well	06:32
Sc0rpius	like the N8	06:32
Sc0rpius	N8 is capacitive?	06:32
Sc0rpius	because that's the screen I like	06:32
Sc0rpius	I have a friend that has an N8 and the screen is really gorgeous and responsive, and it's multitouch	06:33
Sc0rpius	but the bad news would be what SpeedEvil said that the Meego it has is a weird Nokia's fork of it	06:33
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Sc0rpius	yeah N8 is capacitive just checked.	06:34
DocScrutinizer	my laptop is not multitouch, so given the paradigm my smartphone should be as much like a normal PC as possible, I'd probably not even want mt	06:34
Sc0rpius	N900 is heavy and bulky. If N9 comes around the thickness and lightness of an N8, I'd think about buying one	06:35
SpeedEvil	It sounds like - from what I've heard - that the N9 or whatever it's called - has been around at least in prototype form for 9 months or so.	06:35
DocScrutinizer	I want a screen though that I can operate with toothpicks, styli, fingernail, biker gloves	06:35
Sc0rpius	oh	06:36
Sc0rpius	you need a finger for capacitive, like (btw) the touchpad of your laptop!	06:36
SpeedEvil	I'm not sure about the state of the software.	06:36
* SpeedEvil uses trackpoints exclusvely.		06:36
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: you'd be happy with the Samsung Omnia - it has an inverted otical mouse	06:37
DocScrutinizer	quite nifty	06:37
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DocScrutinizer	kinda feels like a apple-mouse micro-trackball	06:40
DocScrutinizer	just solid-state	06:40
SpeedEvil	I meant to look at implementing that ages ago on a hp uipad thingy	06:41
SpeedEvil	ipaq	06:42
SpeedEvil	with finger-reader	06:42
DocScrutinizer	I just can't get used to it, for a pointer device	06:43
DocScrutinizer	it's somewhat anti-natural	06:43
DocScrutinizer	same with trackpoints	06:44
DocScrutinizer	actually trackpoints are even worse, like F'	06:45
SpeedEvil	I tend to use my keyboard under the blankets, so using a trackpoint is great.	06:45
DocScrutinizer	next step to drive me mad: make the cursor ballistic, so you can accelerate it and them have to decelerate aka "break" it	06:46
DocScrutinizer	that's F'' then	06:46
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DocScrutinizer	I want to move my hand to move the cursor. I don't like spinning wheels or rolling balls or remote controlling this spinning of wheels (trackpoint), to move the cursor where it belongs. Basically the less chance you have to operate the cursor 'blindly' (without constant feedback from screen) the less ergonomic the HID	06:51
SpeedEvil	sleep now. Night!	06:51
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DocScrutinizer	night SpeedEvil	06:51
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DocScrutinizer	nice test: try drawing a circle with a trackball or a trackpoint. Try even writing	06:53
DocScrutinizer	now try it with your eyes closed ;-D	06:55
DocScrutinizer	do same with a mouse, a touchscreen, a digitizer tablet	06:55
DocScrutinizer	you'll get my point	06:56
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DocScrutinizer	Sc0rpius: (multitouch) see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv3X5y-ajtc	07:05
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DocScrutinizer	THAT is a really good touchscreen	07:09
DocScrutinizer	multitouch	07:09
DocScrutinizer	sensitive	07:09
DocScrutinizer	and precise	07:09
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DocScrutinizer	works with all touching objects, not just fingers and wiener sausages, like capacitive ;-)	07:10
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krayon	DocScrutinizer: I was beginning to think I was the only person not drooling and getting excited by all the capacitive screen devices :P	07:45
DocScrutinizer	indeed you can start to feel somewhat depressed when listening to the general public. Here's a realm of r-ts fans though	07:46
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slonopotamus	hmm... new cssu says it will "upgrade" qt from 4.7.2 to 4.7.0. how's that?	08:07
slonopotamus	libqt4-dbus (4.7.2~git20110302-0maemo2+cssu2 => 4.7.0~git20100909-0maemo1+0cssu1)	08:07
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DocScrutinizer	qt4.7.2 is borked - we downgrade to 4.7.0 with patches backported	08:29
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DocScrutinizer	slonopotamus: ^^^	08:30
slonopotamus	okay, but why it says it is an upgrade then? and didn't you say one cannot do downgrades with apt?	08:30
DocScrutinizer	don't ask me	08:31
DocScrutinizer	I'm a noob to all packaging and apt things	08:31
DocScrutinizer	actually I myself am musing how this works	08:32
DocScrutinizer	but that's what MohammadAG told me some 6h ago	08:33
slonopotamus	that all sounds like a dark voodoo :)	08:37
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Venemo	good morning!	08:51
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DocScrutinizer	Venemo: moo	09:14
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: wake up voodoomaster! :-D	09:15
Venemo	moo DocScrutinizer	09:15
ruskie	hmm fun...	09:16
DocScrutinizer	ruskie: ?	09:16
ruskie	I couldn't get a GPS lock at home no matter what I tried with either the N95 or the N900	09:16
ruskie	and that was on the balcony	09:16
DocScrutinizer	ruskie: US airstrike pending, no doubt	09:16
ruskie	now that I'm @work inside the office... I got a lock like instantly	09:16
ruskie	I wonder if the bazillion wifi APs in the building have anything to do with it	09:17
DocScrutinizer	wifi shouldn't - wrong freq	09:18
ruskie	will have to test once I get home again to see if things work	09:18
DocScrutinizer	your home BTS might be messed up	09:19
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ruskie	BTS?	09:20
DocScrutinizer	I guess when rrlp can speed up GPS fixes, then it for sure can mess up GPS as well	09:22
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DocScrutinizer	~rrlp	09:22
infobot	rumour has it, rrlp is the Radio Resource LCS (Location Service) Protocol as specified first in GSM TS 04.31, or http://security.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/RRLP	09:22
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ruskie	well the N95 is sim-less so I was thinking it might be that	09:22
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	09:22
ruskie	but adding a working sim... no diff	09:23
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DocScrutinizer	it's questionable if rrlp works without SIM	09:23
ruskie	well it should since it's supposed to be abused for emergency calls	09:23
ruskie	and a sim-less phone should be able to make those	09:23
DocScrutinizer	maybe it's also questionable if it does with SIM ;-P	09:23
DocScrutinizer	ruskie: indeed, but seems this isn't actually the case at least for N900	09:24
ruskie	ow?	09:24
ruskie	I thought it was part of the GSMA spec?	09:25
DocScrutinizer	I found significant reproducible differneces between a N900 with non-registered SIM, and a reference model without any SIM	09:25
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DocScrutinizer	and the issue moved together with the SIM, from DUT A to DUT B	09:26
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DocScrutinizer	well, actuall in the opposite direction :-)	09:26
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DocScrutinizer	both devices sitting at same place, same moment started GPS	09:27
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DocScrutinizer	I think a device without SIM doesn't usually communcate at all with any BTS, unless you do a 911 call	09:28
DocScrutinizer	no idea how the unregistered SIM comes in	09:28
DocScrutinizer	and LLRP is an active protocol	09:29
ruskie	well I'll see again today...	09:29
DocScrutinizer	means your device has to transmit	09:29
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DocScrutinizer	RRLP	09:29
ruskie	and will even try taking the n95 to a diff part of the building just to see if maybe that might be a remote posibility	09:29
ruskie	and I know I can get a GPS lock with any device where I was testing it last night	09:29
DocScrutinizer	I'd guess some random local interference spoiled your GPS	09:30
ruskie	possibly	09:30
ruskie	it was sunset time	09:30
ruskie	so that might be it	09:30
DocScrutinizer	lol	09:30
DocScrutinizer	don't think so	09:30
DocScrutinizer	it might have been a defect microwave or whatever	09:31
DocScrutinizer	though those also are usually wrong frequency - not if defect maybe	09:31
ruskie	I'm still wondering what kind of intereference 7 wifi APs could cause	09:32
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ruskie	and even that probably aren't all that are in the area	09:32
DocScrutinizer	also a microwave on wrong freq will as well leak like hell, as the lambda/2 seals won't work	09:32
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ruskie	but wouldn't it need to be operational for that to actually occur?	09:33
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DocScrutinizer	wifi, like BT, and usual microwaves, have the wrong frequency for interference with GPS	09:33
dm8tbr	note: anything with holes larger than lambda/10 will start to leak substantially	09:33
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DocScrutinizer	not lambda/2 seals :-)	09:33
DocScrutinizer	look at an arbitrary modern microwave - does that lok like a SEAL?	09:34
DocScrutinizer	look*	09:34
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DocScrutinizer	it's just they have exactly the right dimensions so the standing wave that builds up seals the thing	09:35
DocScrutinizer	the door frame that is	09:35
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DocScrutinizer	while a microwave usually seals well @ 2.4(?)GHz, it evidently didn't really stop my cellphone from working inside the closed MW-oven @ 1.8GHz	09:36
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DocScrutinizer	http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikrowellenofen >>Die Wellenlänge darf nicht geändert werden können, weil sonst die Resonanzdichtung des Türspaltes unwirksam wird.<<	09:45
DocScrutinizer	sorry, the english wikipedia article is quite a bit different and not as good as the german one	09:45
psycho_oreos	lol I was about to say `ja das ist gut, aber ich kanst nicht sprech sie Deutsch'	09:46
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psycho_oreos	:D	09:47
DocScrutinizer	it says: "the frequency must not change, otherwise the resonance seal of the gap between door and housing will fail to work correctly"	09:47
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dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: that's why EM cells for testing have completely different seals :)	09:50
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DocScrutinizer	yeah, the microwave ovens of stone age also had 'real' seals, and I guess that's quite a part of why they were so expensive	09:51
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DocScrutinizer	ruskie: nevertheless I don't see how a MW-oven rsp the magnetron in there could change its frequency	09:56
ruskie	well something happened that caused issues... will see if it happens again today	09:56
DocScrutinizer	if it did, for some weird reason, odds are the user won't realize a difference	09:56
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ruskie	of course I'm not discounting that someone is running some jammer around as well	09:57
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DocScrutinizer	easily possible. They used to do that in Iraq all the time	09:57
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ruskie	well around here I would assume it's some hobbyist	09:58
DocScrutinizer	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_analysis_for_the_Global_Positioning_System#Artificial_sources_of_interference	09:59
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DocScrutinizer	mmpf, phrack.org dead	10:08
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dangergrrl	DocScrutinizer: you read phrack?	10:16
DocScrutinizer	occasionally	10:16
dangergrrl	were you hacking into stuff in the 80s too?	10:17
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DocScrutinizer	yep	10:17
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DocScrutinizer	so no, I'm really no kid ;-D	10:17
dangergrrl	check out osuny	10:18
dangergrrl	it is ressurected	10:18
DocScrutinizer	at laest judging by my ID card	10:18
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dangergrrl	i never asked your age	10:20
dangergrrl	i guessed ~40 by context	10:20
dangergrrl	and laughed at you called a kid	10:20
dangergrrl	it was funny	10:20
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dangergrrl	i suppose you could have been a child genius and likely were	10:21
dangergrrl	but if a child genius had been behind openmoko i would have heard about it	10:21
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Arcueid_	Phrack, huh?	10:22
Arcueid_	Wonder if 2600 still works somewhere.	10:22
Arcueid_	I still remember how I cursed the day I found out my country had switched to ccitt-7...	10:22
Arcueid_	I still can't believe I marched in, as a kid,	10:23
DocScrutinizer	dangergrrl: http://www.osuny.com/	10:23
DocScrutinizer	?	10:23
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Arcueid_	into the local telecom, asking people about frequencies. They bought it when I told it was about school homework.	10:23
Arcueid_	Vanity's still a decent exploit. Guess it'll be till kingdom come.	10:24
dangergrrl	maybe in indonesia	10:25
dangergrrl	or nigeria	10:25
dangergrrl	land of scamsters	10:25
dangergrrl	that web site seems true	10:25
dangergrrl	exploits are fun	10:25
dangergrrl	and generally help the exploited	10:25
dangergrrl	if they are not morons	10:25
Arcueid_	Yeah, back in the day, 2600'd work in a few african countries.	10:26
dangergrrl	back then i exploited the heck out of primos	10:26
dangergrrl	pr1mo?	10:26
Arcueid_	Sorry, not that savvy.	10:27
Arcueid_	I was mostly a kid back then.	10:27
dangergrrl	i used it to play with NASA	10:27
Arcueid_	Tell me more, though don't cover all the bases.	10:27
Arcueid_	I	10:28
Arcueid_	Some researching is good.	10:28
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dangergrrl	it was the only phone exchange in houston you could blow off	10:28
dangergrrl	but you could only pulse dial it	10:29
dangergrrl	713 44	10:29
dangergrrl	itś a NT switch now i think	10:29
DocScrutinizer	http://www.2600.com/	10:29
DocScrutinizer	;-)	10:29
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Arcueid_	I wouldn't know. I'm way out of the civilized world.	10:29
dangergrrl	i think +1 713c 440 4050 is NASA information	10:30
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dangergrrl	a voice messagwe	10:30
Arcueid_	I think my country never actually had operators, btw.	10:30
Arcueid_	It just... Inherited the system. A few switches, god he knows where in the bloody countryside,	10:31
Arcueid_	where people still worship trees, you know,	10:31
dangergrrl	in the 80s	10:32
Arcueid_	likely still work with standard frequencies, but honestly, don't ask me where's that.	10:32
dangergrrl	there was still a plugboard in death valley ca	10:32
DocScrutinizer	LOL	10:32
dangergrrl	there was	10:33
dangergrrl	and itr was a big joke	10:33
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konttori	s	10:33
konttori	genius6	10:33
dangergrrl	to ask for directory assistance	10:33
dangergrrl	for death valley california	10:33
dangergrrl	i actually got it once	10:33
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dangergrrl	there were like 14 lines	10:34
dangergrrl	all payphones	10:34
DocScrutinizer	isn't it the area of those errr mormons(?) who refuse to even have electricity	10:34
dangergrrl	no direct dial	10:34
dangergrrl	mormons like electricity	10:34
dangergrrl	and making money off sinners	10:34
dangergrrl	which i think means you and me	10:34
DocScrutinizer	amish?	10:34
dangergrrl	amish	10:35
Arcueid_	Last I heard they also like same-sex companionship,	10:35
Arcueid_	a bit too much for their own tastes, actually.	10:35
dangergrrl	the mormons excommunicated my exgirlfriend for being transsexual and cutting her balls off	10:35
Arcueid_	Weren't they building some sort of underground fallout shelter, or somethig?	10:35
dangergrrl	she did use a doctor	10:36
dangergrrl	but she was excommunicated for being trandgender	10:36
DocScrutinizer	she's better off that way	10:36
dangergrrl	i do not understand her	10:36
dangergrrl	she was still married to her wife as a man	10:37
dangergrrl	and got her balls chopped and was taking estrogen and the mormon wife sis not notice	10:37
dangergrrl	did	10:37
DocScrutinizer	lol	10:37
dangergrrl	true story	10:38
Arcueid_	Doesn't ring false,	10:38
dangergrrl	someone i personally knew	10:38
Arcueid_	you know, most couples, especially long time ones, don't really do the work, you see.	10:38
DocScrutinizer	now I know for sure getting excumunicated was the best thing to happen to her	10:38
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dangergrrl	well the mormons are better than other xtians in some ways but they still refuse to see truth	10:39
dangergrrl	we are part of an information system	10:39
dangergrrl	if you want to call me that i am just a complicated program interacting on the global web to produce intelligence	10:40
DocScrutinizer	we are just generation 100 or less of a somewhat beginning to see the truth biological deviation	10:41
dangergrrl	what we call sentience now is a joke	10:41
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dangergrrl	we are amazing	10:41
Arcueid_	Ok...	10:41
dangergrrl	we have thumbs	10:42
Arcueid_	Now I'm really not sure what you're talking about,	10:42
dangergrrl	i use that one on the dogs all the time	10:42
Arcueid_	though you really have me hooked.	10:42
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Arcueid_	Please, further that.	10:42
dangergrrl	the dogs would like to go outside	10:42
dangergrrl	they have no thumbs	10:42
dangergrrl	need a human to turn the locks and knob	10:43
DocScrutinizer	I'm talking about religion and human awarenes/mind/spirit/consciousness at large	10:43
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dangergrrl	i am too	10:43
dangergrrl	but is belief in the singularity religion?	10:43
DocScrutinizer	we got science that earns that name at all, since like 200 years	10:44
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DocScrutinizer	a lot of our species hasn't even realized we're on that way	10:44
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dangergrrl	do we need someone with thumbs to turn then next key?	10:44
dangergrrl	-n	10:44
dangergrrl	dogs are clearly intelligent to an extent	10:45
dangergrrl	they have motives	10:45
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* Arcueid_ 's following		10:45
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dangergrrl	they pursue access to outside	10:46
DocScrutinizer	for a dog we're either dogs, or Gods	10:46
dangergrrl	and access to inside	10:46
dangergrrl	are not dogs and gods the same	10:46
dangergrrl	i doubt in german it makes sense	10:46
DocScrutinizer	for a dog probably yes	10:46
DocScrutinizer	:-D	10:47
Arcueid_	dangergrrl, ok, I'm following, but..	10:47
Arcueid_	If we're dogs, than's who's god?	10:47
dangergrrl	the maddest guy i respect	10:47
Arcueid_	Sure, most people don't even get what's rationality, they're mostly emotional...	10:47
dangergrrl	says we come from sirius	10:47
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dangergrrl	i actually believe in panspermia	10:48
Arcueid_	But who's gonna let us out of the dog pen? I didn't get that.	10:48
dangergrrl	only theory that makes sense	10:48
dangergrrl	we are	10:48
DocScrutinizer	I'm kinda fan of "there is no spoon"	10:48
dangergrrl	i know you know eris	10:49
DocScrutinizer	concept of religion is strange to me	10:49
dangergrrl	you have not read "Illuminatus"?	10:50
dangergrrl	it is a useful false abstraction	10:50
dangergrrl	they try to take our toys and make us zombies	10:51
Arcueid_	Ok...	10:51
Arcueid_	Let's go outside of the box.	10:51
dangergrrl	we fight back by increasing information	10:51
Arcueid_	We're all living in a world that only exists because, somewhere along the line,	10:51
Arcueid_	mr. Conan the Barbarian, the hyperborian,	10:51
Arcueid_	thought...	10:51
dangergrrl	now you are going to challenge my solipsism	10:52
Arcueid_	"Ok, so... Rather than kill every damn weakling my way, what if I make them work for me?"	10:52
Arcueid_	So, society was born.	10:52
DocScrutinizer	"dear Mr God, in the instruction manual we clearly advices users of our simulation >Universe< not to turn the afinity parameters of rhibonukleoid acids above the level of 45. You mustn't be surprised now when there are strange things happening in your simulation run..."	10:52
dangergrrl	but there are infinite universes	10:53
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dangergrrl	there is one where you are the leader of the reich	10:53
Arcueid_	I don't quite challenge solipsism, I'm actually pretty sure we live in meat sacks.	10:53
dangergrrl	meat sacks are sucky	10:54
Arcueid_	The thing is... How do we, as a group, transcend current limitations? We're still a bunch of wild penned monkeys, in a sense.	10:54
Arcueid_	Can't argue with you there, but still, I'm all too dependant on my mine to complain about it.	10:54
dangergrrl	mine has a liver that could fail	10:55
dangergrrl	i love beer	10:55
dangergrrl	i with the help of obviously non engineers got my bike in maintenance mode	10:56
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dangergrrl	used a floor jack and lack of mathematical knowledge	10:56
dangergrrl	sorry i had republicans to deal with	10:57
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dangergrrl	i am expected to go away soon	10:57
dangergrrl	i need my n900 to be the linux pc i bought	10:57
Arcueid_	Got a keyboard and mouse?	10:58
dangergrrl	not for n900	10:59
Arcueid_	It does fulfill that role, as long as you have some bluetooth human interface devices.	10:59
dangergrrl	i am trying to port miro	10:59
dangergrrl	i want democracy now	10:59
dangergrrl	and rt.com	10:59
dangergrrl	i am soviet	11:00
Arcueid_	You're russian?	11:00
Arcueid_	Or from somewhere up there?	11:01
Arcueid_	I'm not too linux savvy. I'm also afraid I missed a joke. =x	11:01
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dangergrrl	an american societ	11:02
dangergrrl	it was a song in the 80s	11:02
dangergrrl	by a band named CCCP	11:02
DocScrutinizer	I want a unix cmd named like that ;-)	11:02
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Termana	good morning	11:03
dangergrrl	but we are the cccp	11:03
dangergrrl	how do i stop the fighting in bahrain?	11:03
dangergrrl	the suni deserve representation	11:04
dangergrrl	and iraq only wants to become dine	11:05
Arcueid_	You don't.	11:05
dangergrrl	(din a long)	11:05
Arcueid_	You gather like-minded people,	11:05
Arcueid_	and then, go around challenging consensus.	11:06
dangergrrl	i live with wrong minded people	11:06
Arcueid_	That's what you do.	11:06
dangergrrl	one of which i created	11:06
Arcueid_	I considered going to the middle east, you know, earning a few thousand bucks as a mercenary.	11:06
dangergrrl	i doubt they would hire me	11:07
Arcueid_	I chickened out, mostly because... Well, that place is a bloody warzone. lol.	11:07
dangergrrl	you know blackwater is native american owned	11:07
Arcueid_	Blackwater?	11:07
DocScrutinizer	burrp	11:07
dangergrrl	the biggest private army in the world	11:07
Arcueid_	Just read a bit on it.	11:08
DocScrutinizer	biggest club of morons	11:08
Arcueid_	Scary.	11:08
dangergrrl	DocScrutinizer: you know this	11:08
dangergrrl	help me	11:08
dangergrrl	i need some weed	11:08
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dangergrrl	so how do we get devices to the inteligensia and also to the masses?	11:09
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Arcueid_	Err...	11:10
Arcueid_	Somebody please tell me that I wasn't klined for swearing.	11:10
dangergrrl	is blackwater mormon?	11:10
dangergrrl	nope	11:10
dangergrrl	they let me say fuck	11:11
dangergrrl	sorry	11:11
Arcueid_	Let's cover some moral ground...	11:11
dangergrrl	where do you get your morals	11:11
Arcueid_	Honestly, would any of you have a problem with killing people?	11:11
dangergrrl	let us start there	11:11
dangergrrl	of course	11:12
dangergrrl	i could not kill george walker bush	11:12
dangergrrl	though he is a war criminal	11:12
dangergrrl	and guilty of crimes against humanity	11:12
DocScrutinizer	well, I had a problem with killing a bird when I was 16. Never tried how that works for me with humans	11:12
jaska	he belongs in an ape house.	11:12
dangergrrl	i could not kill him	11:13
dangergrrl	jaska	11:13
dangergrrl	you win	11:13
dangergrrl	that is lulz	11:13
dangergrrl	i could put him in an ape house	11:13
jaska	:D	11:13
dangergrrl	so how do i extract myself	11:14
dangergrrl	the n900 would have my world with 2gb of ram	11:14
dangergrrl	dual core 1.5 ghz a9	11:15
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Arcueid_	Wait for the n950.	11:15
jaska	and a hmm.. miniature atomic battery?:)	11:15
Arcueid_	Whatever the fuck's Elop planning on.	11:15
dangergrrl	my sleepin like a baby days are over	11:16
dangergrrl	i must leave here	11:16
Arcueid_	Honestly, as soon as I can code something, I'll code some app called "Let's Elop".	11:16
Arcueid_	It'll be a heterossexual grindr-like app.	11:16
dangergrrl	you can not code?	11:16
Arcueid_	Humans? Been doing it since birth.	11:17
Arcueid_	Computers? Still too lazy to do it.	11:17
dangergrrl	my first language is C	11:17
dangergrrl	muttersprachen	11:18
Arcueid_	Well, your platform is way ahead of mine	11:18
Arcueid_	MIne's still has a lot of trouble compiling simple code.	11:18
Arcueid_	You can still whip it into shape though.	11:18
Arcueid_	Take that however you like. lol	11:18
dangergrrl	main(){char*msg="hello world¨; printf(msg) ;}	11:20
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Arcueid_	Wanna learn "hello world" in human?	11:20
dangergrrl	i already know human	11:21
Arcueid_	Maybe, all of us know that...	11:21
Arcueid_	We just don't know that we know.	11:21
dangergrrl	unless you know where my mj went	11:21
Arcueid_	Sorry, I don't get the MJ.	11:22
dangergrrl	hemp?	11:22
dangergrrl	better than fermentation	11:23
Arcueid_	Oh, grass and whatnot.	11:23
Arcueid_	Nah, I don't know grass.	11:23
Arcueid_	Last time I tried making some sense out of it,	11:24
dangergrrl	i had a wonderfully rolled fag of it	11:24
Arcueid_	I smoked some and went to a bar.	11:24
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dangergrrl	bad idea	11:24
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dangergrrl	smaok and write code	11:25
Arcueid_	I still recall the distinct sensation of drinking beer, and... Listening to the beer echoing, as it hid my stomach.	11:25
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Arcueid_	I don't recall listening to anything else as it hit that area, but well, strange things happen.	11:25
dangergrrl	it gives you coprocessors	11:25
Arcueid_	I'd say, computer-wise, it just messes the instructions...	11:26
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dangergrrl	did you know frank zappa and george carlin are saved mormons?	11:26
Arcueid_	And given that humans have no error codes, well, you get what you get. lol.	11:26
Arcueid_	ZAPPA!?	11:26
dangergrrl	posthumous	11:27
Arcueid_	Godamnit.	11:27
dangergrrl	the mormos church says you can save nonbelievers	11:27
Arcueid_	That's profanation.	11:27
dangergrrl	it is funny	11:27
dangergrrl	like roflmao	11:28
Arcueid_	They better not save me :~	11:28
dangergrrl	and they claim alexander the great	11:28
dangergrrl	in heaven willing or not	11:28
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dangergrrl	well if they grabbed dr sagan it might not suck	11:29
* dangergrrl contemplates heaven with dr sagan		11:30
Arcueid_	What's mormon heaven like?	11:30
dangergrrl	carl would tell them that it did not fit objective data	11:30
dangergrrl	i dunno	11:30
Arcueid_	Maybe it doesn't suck.	11:31
dangergrrl	maybe you get virgins and stuff like moslim heaven	11:31
Arcueid_	Heavy emphasis on the Maybe part.	11:31
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dangergrrl	they think they get 13 virgins forever for killing infidel	11:31
Arcueid_	What's the big deal with virgins, anyway?	11:32
dangergrrl	how do they stay virgin if the guy gets to have his way with them?	11:32
Arcueid_	They perform in bed, like...	11:32
Arcueid_	Well...	11:32
dangergrrl	i dunno	11:32
Arcueid_	Virgins, anyway.	11:32
dangergrrl	i had one experience with one	11:32
Arcueid_	Maybe they're tight.	11:32
dangergrrl	but i was too	11:33
Arcueid_	What was your experience like?	11:33
dangergrrl	you don' t want to know	11:33
Arcueid_	Sounds nasty.	11:34
dangergrrl	it was ok	11:34
dangergrrl	ZZ Top "pearl necklace"was playing loud in the next room	11:34
Arcueid_	Have yoy heard the translation thing on the "virgin" stuff?	11:35
dangergrrl	i was in the closet floor	11:35
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Arcueid_	Pearl necklace...	11:35
Arcueid_	Virgins...	11:35
Arcueid_	It does sound interesting.	11:35
dangergrrl	with a girl who chased me around astroworld for hours	11:35
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Arcueid_	Was it nice?	11:36
Arcueid_	I've never had a same sex experience, so far.	11:36
dangergrrl	i was listening to a band called "rock goddess"that day	11:36
Arcueid_	Not in bed. I've had a few good times with boys.	11:37
Arcueid_	But not down there.	11:37
dangergrrl	it was dissasociative	11:37
Arcueid_	How so?	11:37
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dangergrrl	i imagined how she might feel and went with that	11:38
dangergrrl	i had body parts i should not have	11:38
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Arcueid_	You know what I'm gonna ask next.	11:39
Arcueid_	Just go ahead. lol.	11:39
dangergrrl	what i am trans	11:39
dangergrrl	duh	11:39
Arcueid_	mtf, or ftm?	11:39
dangergrrl	mtf and maybe ftm too	11:40
dangergrrl	genderqueer	11:40
Arcueid_	Well... While I'm all for that, psychologically,	11:40
Arcueid_	you know, bodies just don't quite work that way, usually.	11:41
dangergrrl	well a penis is convenient if you want to unf girls or be a top in general	11:41
dangergrrl	iḿ not a top	11:42
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Arcueid_	Things are tough in the homefront, shall we say.	11:42
Arcueid_	I don't quite care what people want to do with their bodies. I really don't.	11:43
dangergrrl	anyhow what can you compile?	11:43
Arcueid_	I actually have a few female online identities	11:43
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Arcueid_	Honestly? Computerwise, nothing.	11:43
dangergrrl	i have an almost oerfect female body	11:43
dangergrrl	excvept for a substantial thing in the middle	11:44
Arcueid_	I could spend all day talking to you about human psychology, but I'm not too much of a computer programmer. Not sure you ask about that, though. lol	11:44
Arcueid_	Well... Let's get down to it...	11:44
dangergrrl	what?	11:45
Arcueid_	I actually like the whole 4chan anonymous philosophy.	11:45
dangergrrl	i want to go out with the cute blonde chick who digs my bike	11:45
dangergrrl	she works at the gas station	11:45
Arcueid_	We should all be able to weave identities out of the thin air.	11:46
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Arcueid_	Hmmm... And what's keeping you?	11:46
Arcueid_	There's the whole PUA thing going on...	11:46
Arcueid_	Maybe you could adapt that "rooting" method to you situation...	11:47
dangergrrl	uhm i would have to act really butch to ask her out	11:47
Arcueid_	Most people are as dumb as rock.	11:47
dangergrrl	i mean i wear leather and ride a big bike	11:47
dangergrrl	but i am very femme	11:47
Arcueid_	I'd let you do me, or honestly, I'd do you.	11:48
Arcueid_	I ride an old two stroke, btw.	11:48
Arcueid_	Rz 350.	11:48
dangergrrl	you don't lmow me	11:48
dangergrrl	know	11:48
Arcueid_	You're right, you just don't sound like a brick, though.	11:48
Arcueid_	I like non-brick people.	11:49
dangergrrl	i am severely brain damaged	11:49
dangergrrl	and tested to 142	11:49
Arcueid_	Not sure what does that mean.	11:50
dangergrrl	not bad for losing head vs concrete	11:50
dangergrrl	it means 4 stddev above "normal"	11:50
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dangergrrl	but i need safety	11:51
dangergrrl	and i need girl power	11:51
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dangergrrl	i ride a 6 cylinder gold wing 1520	11:51
Arcueid_	Society relies on deviants to make it grow.	11:52
Arcueid_	Everywhere else, it relies on open market to work. But mostly, deviants are really the ones pushing it forward.	11:52
dangergrrl	iam not a deviant just a rather vanilla girl who likes bikes and leather and code	11:52
Arcueid_	How fast can you goldwing go?	11:52
dangergrrl	only like 130 or so	11:53
dangergrrl	0-60 it is fun	11:53
Arcueid_	Well, I like fast bikes which make blue smoke and require a shitton of maintenance, but still give me a hell of a ride.	11:54
dangergrrl	i want to see the world	11:54
Arcueid_	Why don't you?	11:54
ruskie	because it costs money?	11:54
Arcueid_	Nuff said, can't argue with you there.	11:54
Arcueid_	Still, honestly, I guess that if you're born in the US or in Europe, you've got a free pass to the rest of the world...	11:55
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ruskie	really?	11:56
dangergrrl	not true	11:57
dangergrrl	my income is way more than nigerians	11:57
dangergrrl	but less than retired europeans	11:57
ruskie	hmm	11:58
dangergrrl	last night	11:58
ruskie	depends on the EU country	11:58
dangergrrl	i dreampt	11:58
dangergrrl	somebody loved me	11:58
ruskie	around here one doesn't really get all that money	11:58
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dangergrrl	i doubt i could live reasonably in eu for 1400 us/mo	11:58
ruskie	homeowning or renting?	11:59
dangergrrl	i would rather live in stalingrad anyhow	11:59
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dangergrrl	sy petersburg	11:59
dangergrrl	or whatever it is called now	11:59
ruskie	that's 980 eur/month... my net sallary is 1100 eur/month but I'm lucky that I'm a homeowner not a renter	12:00
dangergrrl	how could i own a home in eur for that?	12:00
ruskie	you inherit it from parents/grandparents/etc...	12:00
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dangergrrl	my ancestors murdered native americans instead of leaving me a legacy	12:01
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ruskie	anyways lunch...	12:02
Arcueid_	Lunch sounds funny.	12:02
Arcueid_	It's late late night in here.	12:02
Arcueid_	Oh well. It's a big world.	12:02
dangergrrl	i expect the germans to put me in my place soon	12:03
Arcueid_	Btw...	12:03
dangergrrl	whut?	12:03
Arcueid_	While my ancestors didn't get the change to murder native americans,	12:03
Arcueid_	they sure had their way in... Domesticating african people, shall we say.	12:04
Arcueid_	I'm of english/spanish brazilian coast ancestry.	12:04
jacekowski	well, they failed to be honest	12:04
dangergrrl	we are all guilty of crimes of ancestry	12:04
Arcueid_	In other worlds... Slavers.	12:04
jacekowski	african people spread around the world	12:04
jacekowski	and now keep living on benefits	12:04
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Arcueid_	Somewhat. Btw, hi there jacekowski. I think I know you from talk, and I like your contributions there.	12:05
dangergrrl	and aryan people are often arrogant	12:05
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Arcueid_	In brazil we don't have a race card... There's stirring for a sex card, from gay people,	12:06
dangergrrl	if it had not been for kepler	12:06
dangergrrl	descartes was a weenie it turns out	12:06
dangergrrl	says you can not understand culculus without god	12:07
Arcueid_	but mostly, gentlemen of color, shall we say, were mostly incorporated into society as second class citizens.	12:07
dangergrrl	cal	12:07
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dangergrrl	in brazil i would make good money in film	12:07
dangergrrl	i would be a slave	12:07
dangergrrl	but they would keep me drugged	12:07
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jacekowski	where are you now?	12:08
Arcueid_	Not quite, I'm afraid.	12:09
Arcueid_	In soviet brazil, govermnent owns you.	12:09
Arcueid_	I'm sure the president's computer runs a pirated windows copy, but digital freedom is as far as we'll go.	12:10
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Arcueid_	Well..	12:13
Arcueid_	Time for me to hit the sheats.	12:13
Arcueid_	Thanks for the good conversation, all, and hope to see you soon.	12:13
Arcueid_	Stay free.	12:13
dangergrrl	nn	12:14
dangergrrl	me	12:14
dangergrrl	in texas	12:14
dangergrrl	a captive of myself	12:15
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chem\|st	re	12:33
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chem\|st	who likes capa MT?	12:34
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e-yes	Lol topic	12:41
e-yes	Don't fix problems - just put your head to safeplace	12:41
e-yes	So	12:42
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e-yes	Is there any alternative for users?	12:43
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DocScrutinizer	?	13:43
DocScrutinizer	e-yes loves to talk in riddles	13:43
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MohammadAG	DBus driving me nuts	13:47
MohammadAG	I need to connect method call sender=:1.32 -> dest=com.nokia.HildonDesktop.AppMgr serial=444 path=/com/nokia/HildonDesktop/AppMgr; interface=com.nokia.HildonDesktop.AppMgr; member=LaunchApplication	13:47
MohammadAG	string "sociality"	13:47
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ham5	loltopic	14:06
MohammadAG	most pointless thread ever http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=73590	14:08
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ham5	has anyone made the ' my phone is on its face, reject all calls ' program?	14:09
MohammadAG	He kinda reminds me of Portal 2's wheatley in chapter 4	14:09
MohammadAG	ham5, nope, not that I know of	14:09
ham5	dont even rember those bots names in that game letalone what chapter was what	14:10
MohammadAG	you can't forget wheatley if you played through portal 2...	14:10
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ham5	im telling ya	14:10
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merlin1991	wheatley is burned into my head	14:16
merlin1991	:D	14:16
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kerio	merlin1991: spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace	14:21
merlin1991	this is the part ... WHERE I KILL YOU	14:21
ham5	pluged him right in at the begging, but at the end you needed 3 cores ;\	14:22
kerio	ham5: glados was already corrupted	14:22
kerio	she had been dead for quite a while after all	14:22
ham5	riiiight	14:23
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kerio	"Corrupted core, are you ready to start the procedure?" "What do you think?" "Interpreting vague answer as yes" "No no no no no no no no" "Stalemate detected"	14:24
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BCMM	anyone know if fcamera is at all maintained?	14:37
ham5	cant check when the last update was?	14:37
BCMM	september '10, but maybe they haven't had any bug reports since then? :)	14:38
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ham5	yea or hes not developing	14:39
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chem\|st	MohammadAG: those nitdroid people are puppets aren't they?	14:43
chem\|st	ehrm droids...	14:44
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Corsac	those are not the droids you are looking for	14:54
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Psi	whats the best way to get an audio line-in on the n900? bluetooth soundcard?	15:35
SpeedEvil	If you need stereo, it's the ony way	15:36
SpeedEvil	Well - USB audio and host-mode too.	15:36
Psi	what about mono?	15:36
SpeedEvil	In principle, you can do mono in through a headset-like thing.	15:36
Psi	true	15:37
Psi	using the mic channel	15:37
SpeedEvil	However, I don't know of any cabling to do this.	15:37
SpeedEvil	I suspect that the composite in cable can do this - but you would need to setup the hardware in unexpected-to-the-software ways.	15:37
SpeedEvil	And it may expect quite a low audio level.	15:37
Psi	i guess ya could also streem it to the n900 over wifi	15:37
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Psi	how is the n900's bluetooth system, does it support most bluetooth devices a normal linux box does?	15:38
SpeedEvil	Not played with bluetooth much.	15:41
Psi	thanks anyway	15:41
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jacekowski	Psi: it's standard bluez stack	15:47
Psi	cool	15:47
jacekowski	Psi: with some features disabled	15:48
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Jaffa	QML question: how do you change the title of the window from the package name?	15:52
mtnbkr	regarding bluetooth and my N900, I can not use it with my BT ear pice. The sound is terrible, sometimes static, sometimes robot voice, and sometimes a little of both. Same earpiece works crystal clear with other phones though. :(	15:53
flux	I had a similar issue with one bluetooth. well, not that bad. I guess there are some subtle compatibility issues.	15:54
Jaffa	Ah, viewer.setWindowTitle("Attitude");	15:54
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jacekowski	well, bluez isn't the best bluetooth stack around	15:57
jacekowski	but it's only linux stack	15:57
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flux	the only foss one that is. at least ericsson used to have a stack for their chips.	16:01
flux	(but I know that it was discontinued, so bluez might just as well be the only one left :))	16:02
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merlin1991	X-Fade: ping	16:18
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merlin1991	X-Fade: I know you're here, so whatabout my cloak?	16:21
chem\|st	merlin1991: lol	16:22
chem\|st	"I know you read me!"	16:23
merlin1991	chem\|st: yea :P	16:23
chem\|st	merlin1991: what about your cloak?! what about my access list entry...	16:23
chem\|st	a cloak would be nice to	16:24
chem\|st	actualy I do not care much for both	16:24
merlin1991	chem\|st: cloak is approved, all it needs is him to poke some freenode staff afaik	16:24
merlin1991	and I keep waiting for that :P	16:25
edheldil	what is cloak good for?	16:25
merlin1991	show that you belong to some group / company / whateveritsaysinyourcloak and cloaks your ip	16:26
chem\|st	edheldil: your reverse-dns entry or IP get cloaked with some status in a group	16:26
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PBeck	hi	16:26
chem\|st	edheldil: like 15:09 -!- Thierry_ (New Now Know How) [~chatzilla@nat/trolltech/x-rdaldwtqqxvhllaz] has joined #maemo15:09 -!- Thierry_ (New Now Know How) [~chatzilla@nat/trolltech/x-rdaldwtqqxvhllaz] has joined #maemo	16:26
edheldil	ty. I thought there's more to it :)	16:27
chem\|st	edheldil: nope	16:27
PBeck	anybody knows a good dictionary for english chinese - with pinyin and chinese symbols?	16:27
Lynoure	if your web presense is very strong, and you come from a static ip, don't trust the IP hiding, it's not doing you any good if someone hates you :)	16:27
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edheldil	and I do not realized they show in login/parting messages	16:27
edheldil	s/do/have/	16:27
infobot	edheldil meant: and I have not realized they show in login/parting messages	16:27
PBeck	http://www.androidpit.de/de/android/market/apps/app/com.embermitre.hanping.app/Hanping-Chinese-Dictionary <= i think that describes it very good	16:27
chem\|st	Lynoure: dcc request...	16:27
chem\|st	PBeck: wrong channel for droid questions	16:28
Lynoure	chem\|st: is just one possible way.	16:28
Lynoure	chem\|st: or do you mean cloaked people can still be dcced somehow?	16:29
PBeck	chem\|st: you have to read the complete question. I want only to show what i mean. I searching of course for maemo	16:29
chem\|st	Lynoure: the latter	16:29
PBeck	chem\|st: but i think maemo is here not the right os ;) Symbian has here more potential ;)	16:29
andre__	PBeck, maybe MStarDict? Don't know if there's files around	16:30
chem\|st	PBeck: what andre__ said...	16:30
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PBeck	andre__: i have not found any usefull dict file. Perhaps i am to stupid for searching. All link in the maemo forum goes into a 404 ;)	16:31
andre__	PBeck, http://stardict.sourceforge.net/Dictionaries.php ?	16:31
andre__	first hit on google.	16:31
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PBeck	andre__: yes of course, but now pinyin to english	16:31
PBeck	i cant read the chinese characters ;)	16:31
andre__	PBeck, Pinyin is not a language, is it?	16:32
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andre__	I guess you want to look for a language instead of a script.	16:32
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andre__	plus there are clickable links on that website I just posted.	16:32
PBeck	andre__: pinyin is chinese in latin characters	16:33
andre__	urgh	16:33
PBeck	?	16:33
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chem\|st	PBeck: are you looking for chinese english or what?	16:38
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chem\|st	PBeck: you are looking for a character map not a dictonary	16:41
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PBeck	chem\|st: both - englisch - pinyin with chinese characters - for showing	16:52
chem\|st	no idea	16:52
chem\|st	you can make your own...	16:53
PBeck	chem\|st: hanping has a collegue and its very useful ;) In china you can forget english ;)	16:53
PBeck	chem\|st: yeah of course ;)	16:54
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Khertan	Hello :	17:11
Khertan	!	17:11
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Venemo	hello	17:14
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ruskie	so apparently the N95 is completly useless in offline mode...	18:02
ShadowJK	are you surprised	18:03
ruskie	not really	18:03
ruskie	well I guess I'll keep it as an alarm clock... that's the only real use it's meant for I guess...	18:04
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ruskie	and sadly the bluetooth gps magic doesn't seem to work as well	18:06
ruskie	atleast the n900 to n95 bt	18:07
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ruskie	maybe if I spend some cash on an actualy bt gps it might actually be usable	18:08
ShadowJK	n900 has bugs accessing certain bluetooth gps receivers	18:10
ShadowJK	it drops speed and heading data, making ovi maps always point north and update slowly	18:11
ruskie	well it's not for the n900	18:11
ruskie	it's for the n95	18:11
ruskie	hmm used nokia LD-3W for 30 eur	18:12
ShadowJK	doesnt it have its own gps?	18:12
ruskie	which doesn't work in offline mode	18:12
ruskie	apparently	18:12
ShadowJK	lol	18:12
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ruskie	the n900 will get a fix like in a couple of seconds	18:12
ruskie	the n95 won't even after a long time	18:12
ShadowJK	if it has been recently online	18:12
ShadowJK	or recently had a gps fix	18:13
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ruskie	well put my sim in... now waiting to see if it'll get any lock...	18:16
ruskie	and enabled agps and network	18:17
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dRbiG	do we have a c64 emulator for n900?	18:22
dRbiG	or do I have to port one	18:22
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SpeedEvil	http://maemo.org/packages/search/ - reveals null result for commodore, and c64	18:23
peetah	dRbiG: vice	18:23
dRbiG	i did check via the appmanager but i don't have extras/devel repos	18:24
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dRbiG	so i'm asking	18:24
dRbiG	vice, frodo what else	18:24
dRbiG	peetah: .deb anywhere?	18:24
peetah	in one of the official repositories, don't remember which one though	18:25
dRbiG	okay, so i'll look first :)	18:25
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peetah	here is the tmo thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=48171	18:27
dRbiG	extras-devel, thank you!	18:28
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chem\|st	ruskie: waited the 12 mins? if cache download is aborted in between it takes another 12 minutes...	18:29
ruskie	chem\|st, probably left it untouched for 30 minutes	18:29
chem\|st	ruskie: weird...	18:29
ruskie	but atm letting it see what it can	18:30
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chem\|st	ruskie: google says it depends on the software used, remember n900 ovi maps getting no connection when offline?!	18:33
ruskie	never used n900 ovi maps	18:33
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ruskie	but atm trying to get the n95 in online mode to actually work... still no lock on gps	18:34
chem\|st	was one of the first n900 gps bug reports	18:34
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ShadowJK	uh, "no connection"?	18:37
ShadowJK	the only thing they changed in ovi maps was to not switch gps immediately off when screen blanked	18:38
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Trewas	ovi maps is hugely annoying without network connection, every time the screen has been blanked for a minute it asks if the I allow roaming data use (no) and then that internet connection failed, retry? (no)... and the same thing again a minute later	18:42
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* ruskie gives up on n95 for anything but alarm clock use		18:43
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chem\|st	ShadowJK: that prolly was the first ^^	18:47
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mr_jrt	@ruskie Poor N95.	18:49
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Venemo	MohammadAG, most pointless thread ever is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=73419	19:07
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Jaffa	Venemo: +1	19:11
Venemo	Jaffa :)	19:11
* SpeedEvil realises he would get karma for starting a brainstorm to add 'dislike' buttons to TMO.		19:12
Venemo	SpeedEvil, there is already such a brainstorm	19:13
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SpeedEvil	Ah.	19:13
SpeedEvil	Damn! Foiled again.	19:13
Venemo	SpeedEvil, I think I saw it ~1 year ago, but nothing has came out of it	19:13
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Venemo	Jaffa, btw I voted on "no" at that thread	19:16
ShadowJK	I want meta likes	19:17
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ShadowJK	like, "I dislike the ramifications of the facts brought to light in this post"-dislike and a "This author made a good post about the dislikeful topic"	19:18
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lcuk	ShadowJK, then it gets fun	19:19
lcuk	meta-meta-moods	19:19
lcuk	"I liked the fact this guy liked the topic but for the wrong reasons :P	19:19
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ShadowJK	lol	19:20
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DocScrutinizer	Venemo: you're no better than those that voted yes :-P	19:22
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, what do you mean? :P	19:23
DocScrutinizer	and btw at least stskeeps agreed on non-PR-bound binary updates, aiui	19:23
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DocScrutinizer	Venemo: voting on this poll is useless, no matter what you vote for	19:23
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer, indeed, but voting for "no" and seeing abill whining about it is more fun	19:24
DocScrutinizer	the thread itself however is kinda fun and actually brought some small bits to a wider audience	19:24
Venemo	small bits, for example?	19:24
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DocScrutinizer	stskeeps' notions on some bits - the long lawyer queue at maemo and the fact it's overloaded atm - the still widely common misconception of hw drivers being our biggest problem at maemo...	19:26
Venemo	mhm	19:27
SpeedEvil	Open gfx would be nice.	19:27
DocScrutinizer	won't happen until hell freezing over	19:27
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DocScrutinizer	at least that's what I got from it	19:28
Venemo	open gfx hasn't even happened on the desktop yet	19:28
DocScrutinizer	exactly	19:28
Choom	I'd say it's less likely to happen on the desktop	19:29
DocScrutinizer	maybe, but eternity / 2 is still a long time ;-)	19:30
Venemo	DocScrutinizer :D	19:30
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lolcat	Hello, does symbian store texts in ram?	19:35
DocScrutinizer	from this PoV we didn't perform THAT bad at OM with glamo	19:35
Venemo	lolcat, how should we know	19:35
DocScrutinizer	it's just glamo performs terribly bad ;-P	19:36
lolcat	Venemo: Thihs is the channel with the highest density of Nokia Fanboys	19:36
Venemo	lolcat, I wouldn't say so	19:36
Venemo	lolcat, this channel is not about Symbian	19:36
lolcat	It is about the mythical N900	19:38
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style	is there working voice navigation software for maemo (nokia n900)	19:43
lcuk	style, I sometimes phone mym mum to ask for directions (if that counts)	19:43
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macmaN	style: i havent found anything wothewhile yet	19:44
style	:<	19:44
macmaN	how do i load maps on linux	19:44
merlin1991	macmaN: you mean for the ovi maps?	19:44
macmaN	yep	19:44
merlin1991	hm need to find the link	19:45
SpeedEvil	lcuk: Is your mom a service?	19:45
merlin1991	but it's just a .zip that you extract into the places dir	19:45
merlin1991	sry into the cities dir	19:45
* SpeedEvil ponders qtlcuksmumdialer.		19:45
style	ovi maps on n900 + driving is quite dangerous combination	19:46
merlin1991	hello, is there lcuks mum? i need some directions, can you help me? :D	19:46
macmaN	merlin1991: "where do i get map zips" is probably a tmo search question	19:46
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macmaN	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=719193	19:46
edheldil	does not nav app download them on the fly?	19:47
SpeedEvil	http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2009/10/13/downloading_ovi_maps_without_a_network_c	19:47
SpeedEvil	edheldil: yes - but it doesn't works o well if you have no network	19:47
lcuk	edheldil, yes but when in new country, roaming costs prohibit many from wanting to do that	19:48
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* merlin1991 still wants a proper mappreload for mappero		19:48
SpeedEvil	I just downloaded UK and EU map packs from the above site, in case it goes down.	19:48
merlin1991	I have the whole europe zip saved somewhere	19:48
edheldil	SpeedEvil: at least for me, it does not work too well anyway :)	19:52
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obcecado	thanks for that link SpeedEvil :-]	19:53
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macmaN	ok unzipped a bunch of N-Am maps	20:01
macmaN	looks like theres something else you need to do for offline search	20:01
merlin1991	macmaN: search is online only	20:01
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Macer	LAME	20:08
Macer	:)	20:08
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macmaN	yep. im fricking jealous how my girl's old broken ass n79 is a kick ass gps navigator	20:22
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krayon	Evening. I upgraded CSSU just then and got dep errors relating to libqt4-webkit. when I try an apt-get -f install it reports that it can't due to libQtWebKit.so.4.7.0 also belonging to another pkg. removing that pkg doesn't work however.	20:35
krayon	Is there a way I can force it to install over the top, and/or force it to remove the other pkg?	20:36
MohammadAG	what's the other pkg? cause it looks crappy at best	20:37
krayon	I just realised, I think it's because it's from OVI Store IIRC	20:38
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krayon	digiaaweb	20:38
krayon	I was installing many browsers to find a good one :/	20:38
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MohammadAG	it shouldn't include libQtWebkit	20:39
MohammadAG	it should depend on it	20:39
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MohammadAG	if it includes it, it should have it in its own dir, not /usr/lib	20:39
krayon	Yeah, agreed.	20:40
krayon	Obviously :P But they are @#$%	20:40
MohammadAG	I'd just remove it really, the only two good browsers are microB (built in one) and Opera	20:40
krayon	I tried with apt-get and FAM and it wasn't working but yeah I just used App Manager and it did.	20:41
krayon	Now apt-get -f install is working as expected.	20:41
MohammadAG	the app manager ignores all errors :P	20:41
krayon	So you can't ap-get remove OVI applications?	20:41
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MohammadAG	you can	20:42
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krayon	It didn't work when I tried it :/	20:43
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krayon	Just kept spitting out the "You might want to run 'apt-get -f install' to correct these:" stuff relating to libqt4-webkit.	20:44
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krayon	MohammadAG: If you're interested: http://pastie.org/1994158	20:46
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krayon	Thanks anyway MohammadAG, after removing all was good :)	20:52
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MohammadAG	hmm that was actually weird...	20:54
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GAN900	New CSSU?	21:20
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GAN900	Well, there's one of Arjan's device announcements.	21:24
GAN900	http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/30/asus-brings-out-extra-skinny-eee-pc-x101-running-meego-hands-on/	21:24
lcuk	GAN900, is it a touch device?	21:25
lcuk	(for the hands on part)	21:25
GAN900	Nope, just more netbook bs.	21:25
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SpeedEvil	Oooh! A net....	21:27
SpeedEvil	So awesome.	21:28
SpeedEvil	brb - have to yawn.	21:28
SpeedEvil	(though to be fair - I'm in favour of any non-MS OS on notebooks.	21:28
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GAN900	Me too	21:28
GAN900	But I'm bored with TN-sporting devices	21:29
SpeedEvil	I had a lenovo s10e with s.... the linux dist beginning with s that is not slackware.	21:29
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SpeedEvil	I'm also deeply depressed as to that announcement in other ways.	21:29
SpeedEvil	I have a nice ... 10yo? PII/300 netbook.	21:29
SpeedEvil	(though it has no wifi)	21:30
SpeedEvil	It's 1.05Kg. Has 8 hour battery life (after I recelled it(would be 11 now with the best cells) a nice 10.1" 4:3 display.	21:30
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SpeedEvil	And also has a nice keyboard with a trackpoint.	21:31
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NIN101	the funny application manager is telling me that I should use the pcsuite to update to the newest cssu. m(	21:38
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kerio	MohammadAG: were you saying something about mouse+keyboard vs controller in FPSes some time ago?	21:39
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_trine	does anyone know how to correct this error .. unable to update 'linux kernel for power user (boot image)	21:43
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Jaffa	MohammadAG: BTW, since you complained about Catorise slowing down apt/HAM - it now tracks invocations and changes to prevent unnecessary work	21:47
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_trine	when I try to installer the flasher on mu computer it seems to stop on a page which just has instructions you can scroll up and down	22:55
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_trine	what am I doing wrong	22:55
_trine	on my Ubuntu	22:55
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_trine	it says ok on the page but there is nothing to click on and it does not look like it installed the flasher	22:56
MohammadAG	kerio, gimme a controller and I can beat anyone using a mouse	22:56
kerio	at what game?	22:56
MohammadAG	Jaffa, hmm, i forgot about that	22:56
MohammadAG	kerio, any	22:57
_trine	are you all too busy to help?	22:58
kerio	MohammadAG: http://www.redeclipse.net/	22:59
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MohammadAG	kerio, something cross platform, I like my PS3	23:02
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kerio	MohammadAG: i thought the only game that supported cross-platform gaming was UT3	23:03
kerio	and it kinda sucked	23:03
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, wait for it, waaaait for it, bam http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=73599	23:05
MohammadAG	I have to say, I lol'd	23:05
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DocScrutinizer	well, I was going WTF?! But actually, this thread has a bit of everything	23:09
Sc0rpius	at least the tags are funny	23:10
DocScrutinizer	I's kinda like Monty Python's meaning of life	23:10
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MohammadAG	this won't end well	23:11
DocScrutinizer	this HAS ended	23:11
DocScrutinizer	I actually think this thread will eventually die from sudden starvation	23:12
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DocScrutinizer	or texrat killing it off	23:12
DocScrutinizer	"the source is too ugly, to disclose it" HELLLOOOOOO anybody AT HOME?	23:13
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DocScrutinizer	if anybody at Nokia is too embarrassed by his own code getting disclosed, I'm willing to offer a red papernose for free	23:16
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DocScrutinizer	either way, they always could claim it's not their code but some subcontractor's, and they're just not willing to look at it ;-D	23:17
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DocScrutinizer	no reason to keep it closed	23:17
Choom	I worked on the yopy's kernel once (a korean PDA from 2003)	23:18
Choom	I doubt the code could look any worse than what I found there	23:18
DocScrutinizer	I'm well aware of the nasty dark powers of lawyers	23:18
DocScrutinizer	yopy \o/	23:18
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Choom	from video drivers that had its registers' input hardcoded without even macros for human readability's sake to huge chunks of proprocessor-commented code becausee apparently the previous maintainers were not aware of version control systems, I believe I found a little of everything there	23:21
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DocScrutinizer	another scenario: "Hi, I'm Nuerte Nooonononm of Nokia, I am the developer of maemo's foobar subsystem. I'd love to see it going FOSS, but you know folks, the powers that be :-S Bear with me, I can't talk about a lot of that stuff, but I'm more than happy to answer your questions as precisely as I can, as long as they are related to my stuff. You'll find me here once a months, at 13th, between 22:00 and 22:45 UTC"	23:23
Choom	fortunately, in the case of the video driver, I actually managed to find documentation and reimplement the driver, and the rest was rebuilt from scratch out of a vanilla 2.4.28 kernel with some patches from the arm project (as the arm tree was completely broken in the vanilla kernel back then) and lots of driver implementation and fixes	23:23
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DocScrutinizer	OM knew when they hired me they're not only getting a grumpy damn sharp-eye EE who did every shit you could think of, they also knew and accepted, actually appreciated that they're hiring a loyal (to them, but anyway) community community community guy	23:27
DocScrutinizer	Nokia never got that catch on this way of thinking	23:28
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kerio	DocScrutinizer: it's clear now that nokia sucks bawls	23:29
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DocScrutinizer	so what the hell made them believe messing with linux would be a god thing to do fo them?	23:29
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DocScrutinizer	didn't they anticipate a system that's like 40% closed, but marketed as being FOSS, would inevitably lead to community going to backfire?	23:31
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DocScrutinizer	I'd call that hijacking	23:32
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DocScrutinizer	but I should pass the mic to SpeedEvil who's way more eloquent on maemo's dark eerie secrets	23:34
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DocScrutinizer	(community guy) finally there's been this: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/schematics/	23:38
Choom	to be honest I wouldn't mind maemo the way it is so long as they kept developing it	23:38
DocScrutinizer	and it's not been easy to push OM there	23:39
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DocScrutinizer	I wouldn't even mind they dropping it as long as there's proper COMPLETE documantation, down to the .h	23:40
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Choom	I don't really care about the sources, hardware documentation would do	23:40
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DocScrutinizer	well, even that, yes. But sometimes hw ds are just... limited purpose. As a lot is in the knowhow to deal with the hw in a decent way, and that might be really really tricky sometimes (you don't want to reinvent how to implement openGL based on the hw specs of gfx card registers)	23:44
DocScrutinizer	google for "linux bsp"	23:45
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DocScrutinizer	it's not like Nokia had invented embedded	23:45
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DocScrutinizer	it's more like they were furiously commited to reinventing the wheel for some stuff and some procedures - well known established procedures	23:47
alterego	Well, they have done a bit of good reinventing.	23:49
alterego	But also some awful reinventing	23:49
alterego	What I find hilarious, is now Nokia have walked out of MeeGo, intel are dropping a load of things I kinda liked from Nokia,	23:50
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alterego	Like tracker for instance.	23:50
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DocScrutinizer	yeah, ~nuke tracker	23:50
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alterego	I was just thinking about what has happened after febuary 11th	23:51
alterego	Obviously Intel have taken over, they're now getting very heavy into tablets.	23:51
alterego	Do you know why?	23:51
DocScrutinizer	IF my N900 experience is 19months 3 weeks now, then my bitching against tracker is since 19months 2 weeks 4 days	23:51
SpeedEvil	They want to sell intel chips of course.	23:51
alterego	Because the tablet form factor (though pretty much doomed) is the smallest they can go with the battery capacity they require,	23:52
alterego	But tablets are also a good stepping stone down to handsets.	23:52
alterego	It's just a really stupid fad of a device.	23:52
DocScrutinizer	alterego: (stepping stone) thats debatable	23:53
alterego	DocScrutinizer: okay, I'm trying to think of a better metaphor ..	23:53
alterego	Safety net? Whilst waiting for an airlift? :)	23:53
DocScrutinizer	everybody telling me similar things, I'm not sold to it	23:53
alterego	In what respect?	23:53
alterego	You think 10" tablets are here to stay?	23:53
alterego	I think they'll get smaller and smaller and then turn in to handsets.	23:54
SpeedEvil	For some things, yes.	23:54
DocScrutinizer	e.g. meego "we deal with powersaving later - now lets create a working system"	23:54
DocScrutinizer	prone to fail	23:54
SpeedEvil	Under a 10" display is not comfortable to read large amounts of text on at arms length	23:54
DocScrutinizer	first build tablet UX, then clone handset UX from that - incl kernel and middleware: PRONE TO FAIL	23:55
alterego	SpeedEvil: tell that to kindle owners.	23:55
Choom	I think they have different uses	23:55
Choom	people are using ipads as electronic notepads	23:55
SpeedEvil	alterego: By 'under' I mean 'lots under'	23:55
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SpeedEvil	A 4" screen forex	23:55
alterego	Yes, you're probably right there, which is why I quite like the idea of the kindle	23:56
alterego	But actual tablet computers ...	23:56
alterego	Maybe when devices are just screens with an RF tranceiver and are basically thin clients.	23:56
DocScrutinizer	an embeeded system definitely is no lil lil itsybitsy teenyweeny PC, and no shrinked tablet	23:56
alterego	We all just buy new "screens" and all the power is in our portable handsets, or on the internet.	23:57
SpeedEvil	The major problem with th at is that the screen needs the largest slice of the powr.	23:58
SpeedEvil	Which makes it the sane place to pu tthe battery.	23:58
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alterego	There's a lot of Steven Elop accounts on twitter ...	23:58
SpeedEvil	I was idly wondering about a 'n900' - but where you could pull the screen off, and stick the base onto a larger screen.	23:58
DocScrutinizer	a tablet is a shrinked PC, or a PC can run like a bloated tablet - a phone though is an entirely differnet thing	23:59
alterego	SpeedEvil: to me that's HDMI :P	23:59
alterego	DocScrutinizer: I'm not convinced	23:59
DocScrutinizer	and hardly anybody is geting that difference	23:59
alterego	The N900 is a shrunk tablet/PC	23:59
alterego	IMO	23:59
alterego	It's not a feature phone, and it's better than a "smart phone" ..	23:59
DocScrutinizer	no, it's not	23:59
DocScrutinizer	show me your PCs that can do zeroclock	23:59

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