IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2011-05-25

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shanttuold news? saw this link on reddit https://apachelog.wordpress.com/2011/05/20/kubuntu-11-10-mobile-devices-sneak-peak/00:08
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Siceloshanttu: it is old news, but new news for me :)00:15
Siceloi wonder if they will really deliver :-/00:16
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shanttuI'm far from expert, but afaik telephone functions are closed source. I doubt these devs can do more than nitdroid-group.00:19
Sicelothat's same thing i'm thinking :)00:20
Sicelowhy, it's not smooth sailing for meego itself00:21
Siceloi think they just want to do something along these lines http://wiki.maemo.org/Alternative_desktop_environments00:22
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Siceloalso  http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Mohammad7410/Ubuntu00:27
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shanttuinteresting00:31
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phaphelooo00:33
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vi___yo00:33
vi___is it possible to use a swapfile on the n900 instaead of a partition?00:34
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vi___?00:35
javispedronot with the default kernel iirc00:35
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vi___how about the power kernel (version 47)?00:36
javispedrodunno, try it.00:37
vi___heh00:38
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Maceromg00:41
Macerthis rubber case i got is made in china horrible00:41
Macerif condoms were made this way the world would be twice as populated00:42
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vi___heh00:43
vi___well stone the crows00:43
vi___swap file works with pk4700:43
vi___maybe a swapfile instead of swap partition will stop me from hosing my sd cards?00:44
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javispedrowhy?00:46
javispedroand where do you buy your sd cards?00:46
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Spydemonanyone knows where conversation logs are write on N900 ?01:03
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* DocScrutinizer YAAAAWNS01:31
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* javispedro ponders if DocScrutinizer meant "going to #maemo and yawning" when he said he was going to do some real work01:32
DocScrutinizerexactly ;-D01:32
DocScrutinizerNOkIA they said the word... NOKIA01:33
DocScrutinizermeh01:33
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dangergrrli think i'm working on the world's longest install time for scratchbox02:24
dangergrrlbeen trying for three days so far02:24
lcukdangergrrl, long way to go for records02:27
lcukI think some guy is still trying to get his Maemo chinook SDK working02:27
dangergrrloh02:28
dangergrrlthen i suck less than i think02:28
dangergrrllol02:28
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MohammadAGlol lcuk02:28
dangergrrlwas there an 'e' named maemo release?02:28
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lcukdangergrrl, elephanta02:28
lcukthere is a history of maemo bit somewhere I think02:29
* lcuk recalls such a thing02:29
dangergrrlthere's chinook, diablo, fremantle02:29
lcuk[maemo-developers] Ideas for Diablo and Elephanta    http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2007-September/011773.html02:30
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DocScrutinizerElephanta, WTF :-P02:42
DocScrutinizerbleb blagblagblag... what's next?02:45
SpeedEvilOpenembedded!02:45
DocScrutinizerI feel much better with ommaprojekt now02:46
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lolcat"This newsletter contains confidential information and constitutes a valuable benefit provided by Nokia to you as a Forum Nokia Developer member. This newsletter should not be shared with or forwarded to persons who are not employees of your company. The content of this newsletter is subject to the confidentiality terms of the Forum Nokia Developer "Non-Disclosure Agreement" (NDA) signed by member companies. All Forum Nokia Developer members a03:13
lolcatWould Nokia send me confidential information if I werent a contractor?03:13
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MohammadAGyes, they would03:24
lolcatBut that proves I am a Nokia contributor?03:31
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MohammadAGno03:33
MohammadAGit proved you don't know NDAs shouldn't be talked about03:33
lolcatWhat is a NDA?03:33
SpeedEvilNon Disclosure Alligator.03:34
SpeedEvilIt's what they sic on you when you tell people about stuff.03:34
MohammadAGlolcat, you're either trolling or trolling03:34
MohammadAGyou pasted what an NDA means03:34
MohammadAGhow about reading what you paste next time?03:34
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lolcatMohammadAG: Well, I couldn't disclose any of the very confidential information they sent me!03:37
MohammadAGriight03:38
MohammadAGthat's why you asked what an NDA is03:38
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MohammadAGlolcat, are you attending MeeGoConf?03:38
lolcatMohammadAG: It is in the US, it is a bit out of my way, I could buy a lot of N900'eds for the price of the airfaire03:39
lolcatMohammadAG: I wish it could be in dublin like last year03:42
DocScrutinizer51not again!!!03:44
lolcatDocScrutinizer51: huh?03:45
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DocScrutinizer51btw correct wording is "what's PNG"03:46
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DocScrutinizer51lolcat: the whole cloak theme is definitely off topic from now on, in this chan (and) for you03:53
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xd13i've looked at meego conference schedule n all, when do guys think will be the unveiling of the new meego phone ?03:59
SpeedEvilI think it's unlikely to happen.04:00
SpeedEvilNo Nokia speaker there.04:00
xd13:(.........still love my n900 and get to save the $$$04:00
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DocScrutinizer51I also think if there'd be anything *really* big to reveal then the6'd do this at beginning, to set an exited basic mood for whole conf04:03
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DocScrutinizer51so the only big thing at meegoconf prolly is the big hoax about sth BIG to happen there04:05
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SpeedEvilWho was mentioning bitcoins? http://idle.slashdot.org/story/11/05/24/1257229/Increased-Power-Usage-Leads-to-Mistaken-Pot-Busts-for-Bitcoin-Miners04:21
lolcatI metion bitcoins once in a while04:22
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DocScrutinizer51lolcat: are you Chinese, by any chance?04:28
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lolcatDocScrutinizer51: I am afraid not04:34
lolcatDocScrutinizer51: why?04:35
DocScrutinizer51just a weird thoughrt04:35
DocScrutinizer51nm04:36
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lolcatWeird04:43
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SpeedEvilIs there a way to explicitly trigger maps to download an area?05:18
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SpeedEvilAh. /me finds Jaffas page. Thanks!05:23
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/wt/rescue.html05:41
DocScrutinizernot exactly your hoverboard05:41
SpeedEvilEventually it is believed that the EAGLE aerial rescue platform could be mass-produced for about $ 500,000 per copy.05:46
SpeedEvilMoller SkyCar anyone?05:46
SpeedEvilhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moller_M400_Skycar05:47
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Zaakmmmss07:44
ZaakmmmShould i enable hardware acceleration hildon desktop?07:45
ZaakmmmHwsync?07:45
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itschuehello08:32
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itschuecan someone help me my after flashing my n900 reboots itself bootreason is sw_rst08:35
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slonopotamussw_rst means "maemo pretends it is smarter than you and decides itself it is time to reboot"08:38
itschuewhat can i do?08:40
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kerioreflash?08:42
keriocan you get to NOLO?08:42
keriooh, and if you're in a bootloop, remove the battery now08:43
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keriootherwise it'll drain your battery and you'll have to find another way to charge it before reflashing08:43
itschuei flashed it 3 times and this comes every time08:43
keriohm08:43
keriowhat are you flashing?08:43
kerioCOMBINED and/or VANILLA?08:44
kerioi'd flash both08:44
keriomake sure you don't reboot the phone (the -R flag) between the two08:44
itschuei flashed without -R both vanilla and combined after after that i removed battery t and wait and this didnt help08:45
itschuewhat is NOLO08:46
RST38hGoogle?08:46
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itschueok nokia bootloader08:47
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kerioi'm stumped then :(08:49
itschuekerio how can i get to nolo08:49
kerioideally reflashing both should bring the n900 to a pristine state08:49
kerioitschue: are you in a bootloop?08:50
kerioor can you reflash?08:50
kerioare you sure you have the right files for the flashing?08:50
itschue where i can see if iam in bootloop08:50
itschuei typed in my imei for file download08:51
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itschuekerio?08:55
kerioitschue: can you get the computer to recognize your n900 in flashing mode?08:56
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itschueim on work im only with my n900 online08:58
itschuean have no computer here08:59
itschueim at aprox.  6 pm @home then i will check the .bin files09:01
itschueafter 1 flashing this error happens very often09:02
itschuethen i flashed both and wait a long time befor rebooting and then shutdown and remove battery and wait turn on wait long time so i restart from yesterday 8pm only one time in night09:04
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itschuekerio09:06
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itschuesomeone active ?09:13
strohhalmsome awake09:15
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itschuestrohhalm german?09:17
strohhalma bit09:17
strohhalmbut only idling here09:17
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itschueok you cant help me or?09:17
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strohhalmno, but need to flash my device soon, too :)09:18
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itschueand why ?09:19
strohhalmcause  the cam doesn't work anymore09:20
itschueand you know why09:21
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strohhalmnot that sure, but i changed to these powerkernel and tried some other -extra/devel stuff09:23
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Macerword09:44
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Macerhello09:45
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Macerhm. i never even tried but does maemo support nfs?09:48
Macerdoing it remotely would probably require something seriously out there huh? or some sort of battery sucking thing09:48
psycho_oreosnot ootb but there's probably addons you can get for it09:49
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psycho_oreosactually not quite, its not nfs, its cifs09:51
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Macercifs?09:54
Macerheh09:54
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Macerthat sounds even worse than nfs09:54
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Macerbut i guess using it remotely would be easier09:54
Macersince i'm assuming smb has some sort of encryption09:54
Macerat the very least user/pw encryption09:54
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Macerthis rubber cover i got for my n900 totally sucks09:56
Macerthe screen protector is good tho09:56
psycho_oreosgeneric brand?09:56
Maceri got 3 of them pretty cheap.. $11 for 3 covers and the flimsy made in china rubber cover09:57
Maceryeah09:57
psycho_oreoslol09:57
Maceri guess it works better than nothing does09:57
Macerafter how awesome i have gotten this n900 i am considering getting another newer one09:57
Macermaybe try to rsync them heh09:58
Macerone for day to day and one to wear a suit with09:58
psycho_oreosI've got otterbox for one of mine, makes it look fatter but despite N900 being dropped a few times it never really suffered anything serious09:58
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Macermine is pretty good too other than a few minor sliding into the pocket scratches on the screen09:59
Maceryou would have to really look for them tho09:59
Macerbut i still want a good as new one :)09:59
Macerbut this rubber cover.. it isnt TOO bad.. but i expected a tighter fit10:00
Maceri mean.. it is latex rubber10:00
psycho_oreosit'll be hard to find new ones these days unless you go to shops and hope they still have them10:00
meceMacer, they're cheap too :)10:00
Macerpsycho_oreos: amazon has them10:00
Macerim pretty sure dell too10:00
psycho_oreoso.O10:01
Maceri got mine from dell ;)10:01
Macerwhich was actually kind of a surprise10:01
Maceri could possibly find the parts but i would be a little nervous about that10:02
Macerbusting my n900 open to lose like... the camera lens or something even more oddball10:02
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psycho_oreosany of you guys messed with osso-backup? as in editing the stuff in zip files (backing up without password), repacking it and then getting osso-backup to set it up according to one's modified preferences?10:14
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robbiethe1stNo, I've found no reason to modify a backup: I just modify the original file10:15
robbiethe1stand if things break, that's what backupmenu's for10:16
strohhalmyou are sure, that you edit the backup and try to restore, iterative until it works? ;)10:17
strohhalm*dont10:17
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zakkkkmshould i enable hwsync for hildon-desktop ?10:18
psycho_oreosits the settings that I got osso-backup to backup. I haven't yet installed backupmenu (hence I'm trying to setup a backup clone in case something seriously gets messed up on my main one). The settings if I were to restore that onto my other N900 the Display configurations under Settings automatically freezes Settings app10:19
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psycho_oreosstrohhalm, that didn't quite make much sense :)10:20
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strohhalm;)10:20
strohhalmmust leave, xy10:20
strohhalmcya10:20
psycho_oreosI guess I'm pretty much on my own now, going to delete some %gconf.xml files and replace them with null length files10:20
psycho_oreosbye10:21
strohhalmgood luck10:22
psycho_oreoshmm I guess replacing them with null length files shouldn't hurt, I can see some %gconf.xml files with zero length10:23
psycho_oreosthanks :þ10:23
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itschuehello docscrutinizer10:37
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itschuehello kerio13:09
itschuehelloocscrutinizer13:11
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lolcathello itschue13:13
itschueello13:14
lolcatitschue: Ant news on the N9?13:14
itschueant?13:15
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psycho_oreostypo :þ13:16
itschue dont have news about the n9 i have problems with my n90013:17
lolcatany*13:17
lolcatitschue: What is it? Broken usb port?13:17
itschueok13:17
itschuenodevice is rebooting by itself and battery is draining after flashing vanilla and combined both flashed without -R and waiting long time after every step13:19
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psycho_oreosprobably try it the other way round13:21
psycho_oreosfirst fiasco then vanilla13:21
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itschueand this is safe because the nokia page says others13:22
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merlin1991Psycho_oreos both ways should work as long as you don't reboot inbetween13:23
itschuemerlin no different between both ways?13:24
psycho_oreosmerlin1991, apparently not in itschue's case :) maybe just reflash the fiasco and reboot, that might work13:24
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itschuepsycho_oreos  flash fiasco then no reboot and then vanilla or reboot after both steps?13:26
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merlin1991Afaik it's vanilla no reboot13:26
merlin1991fiasco reboot13:26
merlin1991~flashing13:27
infobothmm... flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware13:27
psycho_oreositschue, just flash the fiasco and reboot13:27
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itschueok i try this when iam at home13:28
merlin1991itschue: also see http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware#Flashing_the_eMMC_in_the_N90013:29
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itschuethe first link says after flashing vanilla i need to flash combined13:34
itschuei flashed vanilla and combined and used the first link13:35
itschueut i have still the problem13:35
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itschueim back later break is over and have to work now13:37
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lardmancan anyone remember that Nokia Beta labs link for an app which acts like an ad-hoc IM and presence announcer over wifi and bluetooth?13:37
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lardmaniirc the video was of some people sat in a sports cafe, all very cheesy, but the idea would be cool for conferences I think13:38
MohammadAGlardman, you attending meegoconf?13:39
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lardmanMohammadAG: nope13:41
lardmanotherwise I'd certainly not be up at this time of the morning ;)13:41
lardmanI was just thinking about disruptive technologies13:41
MohammadAGlardman, I did make a Bluetooth Messenger app with Qt Mobility13:42
MohammadAGit turned out well13:42
lardmancool13:42
MohammadAGworks on Linux/Symbian13:42
MohammadAGbut never released it, it was a school project13:42
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lardmansounds like a cool basis13:46
lardmanI was thinking of being able to wander around a conf with device saying who you are and what your interests are13:46
lardmanprobably useless, but cool imho :)13:46
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chem|stmorninf14:07
merlin1991Morning chem|st14:07
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Venemogood morning guys14:09
lardmanmorning chaps14:09
merlin1991Sf people waking up? :D14:09
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* MohammadAG wonders if there's a vBulletin API14:12
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markinfois there something more powerfull then nokia n900?14:46
merlin1991Chuck norris14:46
psycho_oreosplenty others but none will run maemo OS14:46
strohhalmyea, my notebook14:46
markinfonokia n900 is already 3years old machine - that is not normal to have nothing. Is Nokia still alive?14:47
psycho_oreosdoes Nokia sound dead to you?14:48
robbiethe1stNow that MS has it, yes...14:48
psycho_oreosthere's ongoing rumours of n9 coming out however, who knows if it'll ever come out14:48
robbiethe1stWell, thing is that there are faster bits of hardware out there... But the software doesn't do as well14:48
SpeedEvilIt's pining for the fjoords.14:48
robbiethe1stN950 //will// be coming out.14:48
robbiethe1stThat's confirmed: FCC even has approved it14:49
SpeedEvilErr - no, it's not.14:49
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SpeedEvilA prototype has been approved by the FCC14:49
robbiethe1stmaby not n950 or n9 as the /name/, but some device will14:49
markinfoMemo seems quite enough good to be. But hardware is slow.14:49
markinfoMaemo14:49
SpeedEvilThis does not mean it will go into production.14:49
SpeedEvilOr what OS it will run.14:49
xkr47do they still sell n900 in finland somewhere?14:49
psycho_oreosI thought that was N9 not N950, the stuff on tmo14:49
cehteheven when it goes into poduction its a dead horse :P14:50
robbiethe1stWho knows what it's called14:50
robbiethe1stIf things are too slow... tweak it or OC14:50
cehtehnokias future is wp7 ... mine is somewhere else14:50
strohhalmis it not possible to port maemo to some powerfull android device?14:50
SpeedEvilcehteh: Even if it's dead - that's another 2 or so years for someone to pop up with a 'proper' meego phone.14:50
SpeedEvilstrohhalm: No.14:50
strohhalmwhy not?14:50
cehtehSpeedEvil: i hope my n900 will last 2 years more :)14:50
SpeedEvilMaemo comprises closed elements in a tangled mess - in conjunction with the open eleemnts.14:50
SpeedEvilYou cannot use the open bits without the closed bits.14:51
markinfohm - are there some serious reasons to have "closed elements"?14:51
strohhalmokay14:52
robbiethe1stSpeedEvil: How much of the main UI(Theme bits, desktop, statusbar etc) are closed?14:52
dangergrrlbecause that's what nokia gave us14:52
cehtehsome people think they are serious14:52
robbiethe1stLike, what could be dropped on top of a Debian system?14:52
strohhalmnda, patents, closed firmware i think markinfo ;)14:52
SpeedEvilmarkinfo: The closed elements were chosen and designed to make it hard for another phone maker to use the open elements that they connect to.14:52
SpeedEvilThis seems to be the only real design rationale.14:53
cehtehthe whole GSM (and above) is all well founded on security by obsurity14:53
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cehtehwhen people start hacking on that then the infrastructure will scatter in pieces14:53
markinfothis is the same situatiation as with WIfi cards?  there is binary firmware over that is "open sourced" communication possible.14:53
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strohhalmi wonder when the industry get the fact, that inventing working foo is better than crappy foo14:56
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SpeedEvilmarkinfo: No.14:57
SpeedEvilmarkinfo: In many markets, it's actually illegal to - or at the least won't get approval - if you have an opensource GSM stack that the user can edit.14:57
strohhalmRX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2 <-- this is ne latest release?14:57
SpeedEvilactually illegal to sell14:57
SpeedEvilmarkinfo: Fundamentally, radio is a shared resource. GSM and other cellphone protocols work because the tower control everything.14:58
SpeedEvilmarkinfo: Two users deciding to use their cell-radios to directly talk to each other and not use up any of their data allowances can wipe out calls on that channel for tens of kilometers.14:59
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markinfohm - open Source GSM, it looks danger ... but that problem is very similar to the WIFI cards - or not?15:01
cehtehkindof design flaw15:01
SpeedEvilIt's not a design flaw.15:01
SpeedEvilIt's a fundamental issue. Radio is a shared resource.15:01
SpeedEvilCellphones work specifically because the cell network is engineered so that there are never two devices transmitting on the same frequency at the same time.15:02
cehtehthinking flaw then even15:03
SpeedEvilWifi - pretty much - works with shared channels, as it accepts that sometimes it's just not going to work, and that nearby devices on the same frequency will wipe out the channel.15:03
cehtehi cant operate a radio transmitter on commercial bands without infriging the law .. so is hacking the gsm transmitter too15:03
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cehtehor when i code a virus which hacks some machines (and use it) then its against the law15:04
cehtehyou cant just prevent that by telling "virus coding cant be open source" the bad guys will always try15:04
SpeedEvilBut with GSM and other cell-devices - the approval has as a condition of use that it can't be used to do that.15:04
SpeedEvilThe problem isn't so much one-offs.15:05
* RST38h yawns, eats a kitten15:05
RST38hSoo, news?15:05
SpeedEvilThe problem is a 'free data' app popping up on a popular handset that completely wipes out the network in the area.15:05
cehtehwhich is illegal to use15:06
SpeedEvilP2P is illegal to use too.15:06
cehtehp2p is not illegal15:06
cehtehwhat you do with it might be illegal15:06
SpeedEvilOk - P2P is illegal to use to infringe copyright.15:06
SpeedEvilBut the above issue arises with 12 year-olds - for example - using the above app.15:07
VeggenSpeedEvil: And so is word, email, web, etc.15:07
VeggenSpeedEvil: there's nothing different with php.15:07
Veggeneh, P2P.15:07
SpeedEvilVeggen: The point is the illegality doesn't stop people doing it.15:07
Veggenno, that's true.15:08
SpeedEvilHence the fact that locking down the cell-radio has some point.15:08
cehtehthats what i meant with design flaw .. technically each device should authenticate properly with each other and the network .. if not its like operating a pirate radio transmitter, when you do and get catched then you get sued and have to pay high fines15:08
cehtehthere is no need to obscure this by closing the souce15:08
VeggenSpeedEvil: there'll *always* be people infringing copright. That has never been the problem, the problem is that the media business has stopped delivering services that people are willing to buy once they actually get money to do so.15:08
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SpeedEvilcehteh: The source - the GSM protocol - is quite open.15:09
SpeedEvilcehteh: It's only the implementations that are locked down.15:09
cehtehif something is decided to be illegal by our society it just is ..15:09
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cehtehyes i think there is no much point in doing so15:09
SpeedEvilcehteh: If you have an open-source GSM modem, you can 'file off' the serial numbers.15:09
cehtehyes ... and?15:10
cehtehif i steal a car i can grind out the serials too .. does that make it better or legal or acceptable?15:10
SpeedEvilThe fundamental problem is that radio is a shared resource - anyone transmitting on an unauthorised channel on a GSM networks allocation will knock off up to 16 calls. Some of which may be emergency calls.15:11
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cehtehstolen cars run by drunken / drugged shitheads also share the same street and overrun people15:12
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SpeedEvilSure - it's not. The issue is that your average teenager - who is infringing on copyright over P2P is not likely to see a major difference between doing that, and running a 'free data transfer to your friends' app.15:12
cehtehyes but thats not a technical problem you can engage with a technical solution (locking the code down) .. its about education and responsibility15:12
SpeedEvilGood luck with that.15:13
lardmanno, that is something you can stop by locking down the hw15:13
SpeedEvilI look forward to hearing how you're going to educate everyone to follow the law.15:13
lardmanchances are that a teenager bright enough to develop their own, won't be a teenager anymore by the time it's ready to go15:13
cehteheventually someone will release (if not already happend) a free/open/hacked GSM stack on the black market15:13
SpeedEvilcehteh: That's not the issue.15:14
lardmanthat will require hacked hw too though15:14
lardmanwhich will be expensive15:14
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SpeedEvilcehteh: The issue is hardware - widely available - being able to be used in ways that will incidentally jam other users in a many kilometer radius.15:14
SpeedEvilAnd with incentives for people to use it that way (free data).15:14
cehtehi bet some day they find a way around .. and some day later it will apear on some server just for download for the kids15:14
SpeedEvilHence the locking down of the hardware. There isn't another way round this. Radio is by nature a broadcast and shared medium.15:15
lardmanthe point of the separation is so that can't happen cehteh, so no amount of sw can alter that15:15
cehtehhaha .. they saied that about blueray too :P15:16
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lardmanyes, though that is slightly different15:16
SpeedEvilWithout rigid control, your cellphone range drops from 15km to 3km, and then only sometimes, and the battery usage goes up 100*15:16
lardmanbut yes, perhaps there is a weakness somewhere, who knows15:16
dangergrrli ran the unlock for the fm transmitter in my n900 and the world did not end and the fcc has not showed up at my door15:16
lardmandangergrrl: short range15:17
SpeedEvildangergrrl: Sure - the FM transmitter is still operating at a really tiny power though.15:17
lardmanand no-one dies because they can't listen to Radio 115:17
dangergrrland someone told me not long ago that they heard something about a full gsm stack in open source15:17
cehtehyes15:17
lardmanBut you still need the hw to run it on15:17
SpeedEvildangergrrl: If you are 2km from a cell-tower, and transmit to your friend without negotiating with that cell-tower, you will knock everyone else further than 1km or so on the same channel off the network.15:18
lardmanand I bet your average teenager's pocket money won't stretch to that15:18
SpeedEvildangergrrl: Including some emergency calls.15:18
dangergrrlnow i haven't been teranmsmitting outside the approved fm range, i don't have a receiver for that :P15:18
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SpeedEvildangergrrl: GSM -opensource - hardware exists.15:18
SpeedEvilIt's expensive - though it will get cheaper. It will never be mass market though.15:18
mikkovopen source gsm bts http://openbts.sourceforge.net/15:19
SpeedEvilyeah - that.15:19
SpeedEvilAlso - there is a cracked phone, being used for openhandset15:19
strohhalmi think the problem is not the closed gsm stack, nokia shows that it is possible to provide a free userland with closed parts e.g. for radio, grafic. but why nobody build such stuff with --usable --customizable15:20
dangergrrli suppose if i had a friend who lived next door15:20
SpeedEvilYeah - there is no reason why the user cares about an open-source GSM stack.15:21
SpeedEvilIf the stack is done right, it exposes everything the user might care about.15:21
dangergrrl*and* i could transmit bulk data without being charged by my cell provider15:21
kerioif you had a friend who lived next door you'd push a cat6 cable through a wall15:21
strohhalmi would be happy with a closed gsm stack, too. if i get a device (system) like the n90015:22
SpeedEvil(where GSM = all cellphones)15:22
keriobecause fuck radio, 10GigE is the shit15:22
dangergrrllo9l15:22
dangergrrlindeed15:22
* lardman votes for fibre, Gigabits are old school15:22
strohhalmbut 2km cat6 is a bit expensive x)15:22
dangergrrlso the idea of a teenager breaking the whole GSM network just for fun is a straw man15:22
SpeedEvilIt's incidental.15:23
dangergrrlbesides they had a fake gsm cell demo at DEFCON last year15:23
SpeedEvilIt's not something you care about - you just want free data.15:23
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dangergrrlGSM is trivial to break in some fun ways15:24
dangergrrla fake GSM cell can just tell your phone: naah, i don't like encryption, don't use it15:25
dangergrrland no phone will warn the user it's dropped encryption15:25
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dangergrrli don't buy any of the justifications for closed drivers or NDA hardware as valid15:27
SpeedEvilI think it's possible to also get the SIM secrets by the network requesting a weak encryption, and then cracking that.15:27
keriowho the hell thought that security through obscurity was a good idea? :|15:28
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SpeedEvilThe fundamental reason for a phone maker is that in many markets, it's actuively illegal to sell an open -GSM phone. In most others you will not get approval.15:28
dangergrrlit's BS for GPUs and it's BC for GSM stacks too15:28
dangergrrlBS even15:28
SpeedEvilIt's _not_ security through obscurity. The GSM protocol has been published forever.15:28
dangergrrlati and nvidia still reverse engineer each other's stuff and their closed drivers only inconvenience some users15:29
dangergrrland do phone makers use faraday cages when testing new proto stacks?15:30
SpeedEvilYes.15:30
SpeedEvilAnd their own network emulators.15:31
dangergrrli mean sure not everybody lives next to a htc r&d facility15:31
SpeedEvilIf for no other reason than you can't control the real-world.15:31
RST38hmoo all15:31
lardmanhey RST38h15:32
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dangergrrlif someone wants to break something they will15:32
lardmanso you make it as hard as possible for them to do too much damage15:34
dangergrrli worked in a group at IBM that was doing small quantity manufacturing or prototype servers, we had to send each one across the street to the anechoic chamber for fcc certification before shipping it15:35
dangergrrlbut we were using it in the lab before it passed15:35
RST38hlardman: heya15:35
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dangergrrland they always came back with the data cables passed through toroids etc15:36
lardmanRST38h: no jokes today about N9/50s, promise! :)15:36
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RST38hlardman: Android FTW!15:40
* RST38h hides, just in case there is a riot15:40
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lardmanRST38h: hw-wise certainly15:41
lardmanTab has just had an updated kernel source code drop, so Linux for the win!15:41
dangergrrli think the real reason people want to give us closed toys15:41
dangergrrlis because they are autocratic control freaks and should be the first against the wall when the revolution comes15:42
rjeohaha15:42
lardmanhmm15:43
lardmancheaper and probably faster to not develop in the open15:43
c2pLaYdangergrrl: i like the way you think15:43
dangergrrlhey we had autocratic control freaks in charge of gcc development for a long time15:43
dangergrrlgcc forked over it15:44
kerioand LLVM apparently kicks much more ass than gcc15:44
Macerugh15:44
Macerwtf. my calendar isnt syncing up15:45
dangergrrlegcs had open development gcc was closed15:45
dangergrrliirc they remerged and the egcs faction "won"15:45
dangergrrlsome people just like to control others15:46
lardmantbh sometimes you need someone to try herding the cats15:46
lardmanI don't know about the gcc case mind you15:47
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dangergrrlyou ever tried to get cats to do what you want?15:47
dangergrrlunless it coincides with what the cat wants, good luck15:48
lardmanquite, encouragement and guidance15:48
lardmanbut we're only talking about metaphorical cats15:48
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dangergrrlsadly the us is likely to have only one GSM provider soon15:50
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lardmanbbiab meeting15:53
dangergrrlunless the fcc commissioners decide to actually regulate something like they get paid to do15:53
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dangergrrli was in the middle of the gcc thing in the 1990s15:58
dangergrrli made the decision to ship a gcc snapshot as part of a commercial release15:59
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RST38homg nokia releases golden symbian phone!16:07
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kerioZOMG16:23
lcukRST38h, is that the first time?16:25
* lcuk recalls seeing similar16:25
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Gyjfanyone know where i can get curl for the n900? do i have to compile from source?16:28
SpeedEvilIt's in one of the repos16:28
Gyjfapt-get wont find it16:29
SpeedEvilIIRC16:29
SpeedEvilMaybe tools?16:29
SpeedEvilWould wget work for you?16:29
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Gyjfi have wget, id like curl tho16:30
Gyjffor compatibility reasons and i dont want to rewrite some scripts16:31
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SpeedEvilhttp://curl.haxx.se/download.html ?>16:36
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SpeedEvilhttp://brnz.org/hbr/?tag=maemo16:37
lcukhttp://maemo.org/packages/view/libcurl3/16:39
SpeedEvildoesn't have the binary16:39
lcukGyjf, SDK repository and was included in SSU PR1.2 on device16:39
lcukwell, included from PR1.016:40
vldcnstGyjf: tl;dr; http://brnz.org/f/maemo5/curl_7.18.2-8maemo6+0m5_armel.deb16:40
Gyjfthank you vldcnst16:41
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vldcnstthank you SpeedEvil16:43
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DocScrutinizer( <dangergrrl> and no phone will warn the user it's dropped encryption ) Old Siemens C25 did17:32
RST38hAnd where is Siemens now?17:32
* RST38h cackles17:32
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dangergrrlnice feature, i stand corrected17:36
dangergrrlalmost all phones do not17:36
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DocScrutinizerdangergrrl: I've been in charge for the GSM modem of Openmoko. Not even we, the EE at OM, had full source of the GSM stack of the calypso modem17:37
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DocScrutinizerdangergrrl: scenario: N900 comes with FOSS GSM stack, some dude is patching it to fix the "doesn't reregister after long time in bunker" issue, seems to work, everybody is installing it. 3 Months later the newspapers come up with "Mysterious GSM failures that tore down half of USA got spotted - some 'fix' in a Nokia phones SW caused timing issues in the celltowers"17:39
chem|stDocScrutinizer: hoi17:40
chem|stDocScrutinizer: is killing bme dsmetool?17:40
DocScrutinizerrephrase plea17:40
DocScrutinizerse17:40
chem|stDocScrutinizer: I was to kill bme for having the device die when the bat is realy empty17:41
chem|stand there is no init.d17:41
DocScrutinizerok, just do "stop bme"17:41
chem|stbut dsme does not do the trick either17:41
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chem|stah ok17:42
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chem|sthad it to die yesterday and start from (bme death) dead -> charged while off -> running till dead without bme + logging bq27* output17:44
chem|stany further advice?17:44
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: not really, just maybe do an occasional *full* bq27200.sh printout, as the loop mode printout is somewhat missing a few bits17:47
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chem|sthow do I loop in bash scripts?17:52
chem|stor can I write to the file while I have $process >> $file17:53
lardmanis liblocation open source?17:53
chem|stto be precise timed loop is the question...17:53
ShadowJKWhat are you trying to do?17:53
ShadowJK(wthat was to chem|st)17:53
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javispedrolardman: nope, but the library is a not much complex d-bus wrapper17:54
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javispedrointeresting parts not on it17:54
LantiziaLo does anyone use the Ovi Maps extended stuff (voice navigation addon?)17:54
lardmanand the interesting parts are also closed presumably?17:54
DocScrutinizerchem|st: bq27200.sh 5 >log.txt17:54
lardmanjavispedro: just wondering about offline cell id location lookups17:54
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chem|strun bq27xx.sh 60 >> bqtest.txt and add a bq27xx.sh >> bqtest.txt every 10mins17:54
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javispedrolardman: that would be in the server. either way, does it do that, or you mean you're trying to add that feature?17:55
chem|stDocScrutinizer: ah build in?17:55
DocScrutinizerwhile true; do bq27xx.sh >> bqtest.txt; sleep 600; done17:55
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lardmanjavispedro: I don't think it does that, it would be a useful feature to have and therefore if added would be best as an extension to liblocation imo17:56
ShadowJKchem|st, let's back up, why do you want to kill bme and run bq27200.sh in a loop?17:56
lardmani.e. using a local database of cell id lat/lon positions17:56
javispedrolardman: yep, probably doable.17:56
DocScrutinizereven more special: while sleep 600; do bq27xx.sh >> bqtest.txt; done17:56
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, btw I think it's mostly eeprom data that's missing from the one-line output17:56
javispedro(database of cell id->lat/lon positions= the cause of the recent android/iphone privacy senseless panics)17:57
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: flags17:57
lardmanI wonder, is there an open database of wifi router ids + lat/lon?17:57
ShadowJKYeah the flags and cycle counts that only update once per cycle17:57
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DocScrutinizercycle count is largely boring for loop, flags like CI et all are not17:58
ShadowJKjavispedro, google maps on j2me used to collect this data too, and send it back to google17:58
ShadowJKthat and google spycar is how they've built up a large database of cellid to location mapping :-)17:59
lardmanShadowJK: yep, we could do likewise though if we really wanted to17:59
ShadowJKCI is updated once every 30 cycles :-)18:00
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ShadowJKyeah18:00
DocScrutinizerwut?18:01
DocScrutinizerevery 30 cycles ?? o.O18:01
DocScrutinizerWTF?!18:01
ShadowJKThere's a open cellid db iirc. But it was kinda weird, iirc.. And interest/momentum was somewhat lost after iOS/android came18:01
DocScrutinizerthere are several18:01
DocScrutinizeropenbmap being just one of those projects18:02
chem|stok normal loop then so the file remains writable while >> is active18:02
javispedroI cannot believe that the same spanish l10n error microB has is also present in firefox...18:03
chem|stjust have the *60 >>* running and every 600 I add a "normal" output to the file18:03
ShadowJKit's basically: if(cycles since last learning cycle > 30) CI=1 else CI=0;18:03
javispedroinstead of "search history" being translated to, well, "search history", it was translated to "history of searches"18:03
ShadowJKI don't remember if it was 30, 50 or 15, but significantly > than 118:03
lardmanthanks Doc18:03
chem|stShadowJK: nope I had CI=1 with 12 cycles already (first time I had a look after)18:04
DocScrutinizerlardman: yw18:04
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ShadowJKchem|st, maybe it never ever completed a learning cycle, this is quite likely with bme :-)18:05
chem|stcycles are increasing18:05
ShadowJKa learning cycle, not a cycle18:06
chem|st21 cylces so there was a learning cylce ended 21 charges ago...18:07
chem|st21 since last full reset18:08
chem|st21 since learning18:09
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DocScrutinizerergo: never had any complete learning cycle18:10
DocScrutinizercounter for "since last learning" got reset with full reset18:10
DocScrutinizerbut CI got set to 118:11
ShadowJKso LMD == iLMD now too, then :)18:12
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: btw since the chip's adjusting of actual capacity is limited to */ 1.25 (iirc) it might need several learning cycles till it drops from iLMD to the real value of ~130018:13
DocScrutinizerthe chip isn't really designed for getting detached from battery cell18:14
DocScrutinizeralso not meant to work with incorrect iLMD18:14
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: you should read the datasheet, and maybe18:15
DocScrutinizer~batteryfaq18:15
infobot[batteryfaq] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers18:15
DocScrutinizerand my bq27000 script linked to in there18:16
DocScrutinizerit predates N900 and is for the 27000 variant, but they are identical modulo the I2C/HDQ interface18:16
Lantiziais there any way to lift the restriction of downloading Ovi apps via apt-get?18:17
MohammadAGis there a way to pipe microphone input to output?18:17
Lantiziathe ovi web site bugs me, it's slow and boring18:17
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: hehehe, a GOOD question18:17
Lantizialike old people18:17
MohammadAGbesides arecord + aplay, too slow18:17
javispedroDocScrutinizer: MohammadAG: there is.18:18
javispedroit bypasses speaker protection so use at your own risk18:18
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I gather there is, but it seems to need insane amount of coding a special app to do so18:18
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javispedroeither play with alsamixer (I  do not remember the cotnrols atm) or download cfmradio source and play with the advaudio.c18:18
MohammadAGno gstreamer way?18:18
javispedroDocScrutinizer: nah, it wasn't very hard.18:18
lcukLantizia, it bores you?18:18
lcukwalking around grocery shopping is boring18:19
lcukbut finding apps is fun18:19
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Lantizialcuk, more fun using apt-cache search :P18:19
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: there *should* be a gstreamer way too18:19
javispedrobut it would be slower than arecord aplay18:19
javispedroI believe cfmradio uses what should be the fastest method that also uses pulseaudio (besides hacking pulseaudio itself; that is what module-loopback does)18:20
javispedro(remember reason to use pulse is speaker prot.)18:20
DocScrutinizerchem|st: feel free to ping me (and/or SpeedEvil / ShadowJK ) if any questions related to bq27x00 (-datasheet)18:20
LantiziaMohammadAG, actually I remember you made a alternate apt-get didn't you on the forum for this?18:21
Lantiziaif i can find it :S18:21
chem|stwhat I do not realy understand is how the learning reset works18:21
Lantiziahttp://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=830385&postcount=1918:21
Lantizia:D18:21
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: a) I think there's neither arecord nor aplay (surprise, as it's the same binary ;-P) on maemo?18:21
javispedroDocScrutinizer: ah, well, I guess not "by default" ;)18:22
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: b) even if there is, I don't think it would work without killing fsckng PA18:22
ShadowJKbtw, I wouldn't run n900 to empty without bme. It cuts power to the cpu without warning, so there is danger of filesystem corruption. On Smartdevices' SmartQ5/Q7, this even made its emmc unusable :P18:22
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: the point was that if he thinks aplay+arecord is too slow, nothing sw-based is going to beat it18:23
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: c) you need proper amixer settings anyway, but it seems there is just NO "scenarios" (they call it scenarios in OM/SHR) to feed to either alsactrl or amixer, to make mic and speaker output work18:23
ShadowJKchem|st, if battery has been charged to full, then discharged to less than 3248mV, without any charging in between, without removing battery, then it adjusts its caibration towards what it measured18:23
chem|stShadowJK: so what is your suggestion?18:23
chem|stah ok that was the plan,18:24
chem|stdidn't want it to die on it but wait till close to real empty and shutdown18:25
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: that's not *entirely* true, aiui the PMU is sending an IRQ to CPU prior to hard shutdown18:25
lcukjavispedro, using the code from arecord you could theoretically produce a marginally more optimal set of routines18:25
DocScrutinizerlcuk: definitely not18:26
javispedro(well, you could do something in kernel-land =) )18:26
javispedrothat would be faster too =)18:26
DocScrutinizerof course18:26
DocScrutinizerfor all I know arecord code sahould be "optimum"18:26
javispedrobut I do believe there's _was_ a "scenario", which was how fmrx was done originally18:26
javispedrothat is, using one of the bypasses18:27
lcukjavispedro, rm_work do you guys remember when I designed: http://liqbase.net/liq.20081102_235650.gary.scr.png18:27
DocScrutinizeryou can tune it by passing weird parameters like mmap etc18:27
rm_workyes18:27
rm_worklcuk: yeah that was lulzy a bit18:27
lcukI dug out the sketches used for the design :)18:27
DocScrutinizerbut there's no feature of ALSA api that's not supported by arecord afaik18:27
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lcukhttp://liqbase.net/liq.20110525_162059.liqrecentsketches_classic.scr.png18:27
javispedroheh18:28
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rm_worklcuk: i still am not sure exactly how that would work, as the colors displayed would be different depending on the brightness :P so it's a moving target18:28
ShadowJKchem|st, stop bme once you get your usual low battery warning. start "./charge21.sh" and "./bq2700.sh 5", monitor the bw window waiting for EDV1 column to change to 1. There'll also be a warning popup from bq27200.sh. Connect charger immediately. Wait until 15% charge. Disconnect charger. Wait 30s. Stop charge21.sh (ctrl-c). "start bme", wait 30s, connect charger.18:28
rm_worki guess it could be done, but seemed odd to me18:29
lcukrm_work, it always is18:29
rm_workrather I would just expect a slider18:29
DocScrutinizerlcuk: javispedro: so the main problem of arecord|aplay is the | ;-)18:29
rm_workIE, what ABL did :P18:29
lcukbut it is clear that min/max is all the way across the screen18:29
rm_workyeah18:29
lcukand low at the left and high at the right18:29
rm_workwhich makes it, essentially, just as good as a slider, but with extra color :P18:29
lcukthe slider was listed as first principle18:29
lcukthe extra bit is the granuality18:29
rm_workyeah18:30
lcukthere was so many people (nokia included) saying "you only need 4 steps"18:30
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: sounds nifty18:30
lcukand others saying, I need 255 steps in 0.0000001 step increments18:30
rm_workthat part is intriguing i suppose.... top slider puts you in ranges of 64 or so, and then second puts you in ranges of 8 inside that18:30
lcukyeah18:30
rm_workand the bottom slider is all 818:30
* lcuk nods18:30
rm_workyeah, i like the design actually18:31
rm_workbut it's SOOOOO BIG18:31
rm_workomfg18:31
lcukthat is the bit that doesn't matter18:31
rm_worki feel like it belongs in a settings menu under "show me the crazy-huge advanced version"18:31
rm_worknot as the default, but as a crazy config option for the "more concerned"18:31
chem|stShadowJK: where do I get the charge21.sh and what does it do?18:32
lcukrm_work, when it is in the control panel, it is the same size as a brightness icon18:32
rm_workyeah, i guess it pops down and onscures the whole screen, but that's ok, since it's temporary anyway18:32
lcukso it was never crazy huge level18:32
rm_work*obscures18:33
lcukhttp://liqbase.net/liq.20090625_222814.lib.scr.png18:33
lcukrm_work, all this just came back and being reviewed because I collated all the sketches ever drawn18:33
DocScrutinizerlcuk: you're aware the human eye can't tell brightness changes < *2 / *.5 ?18:33
lcukand selected those which had decent info on them18:33
rm_workheh18:33
lcukDocScrutinizer, not important18:33
lcukand we are not talking about humans, these are linux maemo petrol heads.18:34
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Sure it can.18:34
rm_workyeah and most people can't tell the difference between reference monitor speakers and a $20 set of earbuds18:34
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: If they are relative, it can go _way_ deeper than that18:34
rm_workbut people still spend $1000 on them and SWEAR they can18:34
DocScrutinizerso with 255 steps for linear brightness you got a reasonable range of max 8 steps for brightness18:34
DocScrutinizerHID18:34
lcukDocScrutinizer, choice is more important18:34
lcuk"The subsystem can handle 24bit brightness resolution, WHERE are my 16777215 levels???!!!!!"18:34
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: those aren't relative when it's about brightness setting of LCD-BL18:35
rm_workDocScrutinizer: I agree with you for the most part, though I would still allow maybe 10-12 just for super-sensitive people and special cases, so at that point it may as well be a slider18:35
lcukdimmer switches in the home vs regular light switch etc18:35
chem|stShadowJK: http://enivax.net/jk/n900/charge21.sh.txt that one?18:36
SpeedEvilFor me at least - I want brightness levels lower than the '2 of 255' that is the hw minimum on the n900.18:36
rm_workI'm somewhere in the middle between the "crazy Nokians with their 4 brightness levels" and the "nutjobs who want MAXINT brightness adjustments"18:36
DocScrutinizerrm_work: I fully agree18:36
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lcukrm_work, the brightness doofer I did happily bridged that gap18:36
lcukwithout showing any extra ui18:36
* lcuk really liked designing that :)18:36
rm_workheh18:36
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MohammadAGLantizia, it's somewhere on mohammadag.xceleo.org/public/maemo/debfiles18:37
lcukbtw, the graffiti wall I am using is close to how original liqbase did it :)18:37
rm_workyeah, i do like that interface actually, it would work very well as either a fullscreen brightness changer on a handset (the taskbar icon is clicked and it pops up and essentially takes the whole screen) or as a widget on a tablet device18:37
MohammadAGjavispedro, is there a quicker way? I'm on the road18:37
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rm_workI am really looking forward to a real usable device18:38
rm_workso i can get back into meego dev18:38
MohammadAGjavispedro, and it's for the FMTX, so speaker proetection isn't needed18:39
javispedroI wouldn't do it on the move for a first time because you might not be able to reset it18:39
javispedroto nroaml settings18:39
ShadowJKchem|st, that's the one18:39
rm_workmeego/maemo dev18:39
MohammadAGjavispedro, don't plan on changing controls18:40
MohammadAGbut I remember a method on tmo using gstreamer18:40
MohammadAGand it was quite fast18:40
javispedroit will be slower than arecord18:40
MohammadAGit wasn't :p18:41
javispedrosth like gst-launch pulsesrc ! pulsesink shall work18:41
MohammadAGarecord + aplay are fast actually, but after sometime...18:41
javispedroyou need gstreamer*-utils or whatever is called18:41
javispedros/utils/tools18:42
MohammadAGactually that is slow...18:42
javispedrootherwise, get pulseaudio-utils and use parec | pacat18:42
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javispedroeverything will be slow (were talking 1sec), I do not know how a "fast" gstreamer method could exist.18:43
MohammadAG1s is acceptable18:44
MohammadAGbut arercord goes up to 5s after a min18:44
chem|stShadowJK: ty18:44
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MohammadAGjavispedro, thanks18:45
javispedromight be a pulseaudio/alsa layer bug18:46
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: what? 5s skew/latency after 50s of piping arocord to aplay?18:48
MohammadAGit's only to shout at someone in a car18:48
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: note that I remember that aplay & co would be using the pulseaudio alsa emulation on a n90018:48
javispedro*remembered18:48
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: indeed18:49
DocScrutinizerand PA shit might mess up rate18:49
javispedroso this would be one situation where pacat would work better than aplay =)18:49
DocScrutinizerso quite easily the aplay via PA alsa plugin might be a few % slower than the rate of arecord18:49
DocScrutinizer~nuke pukeaudio18:50
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at pukeaudio ... B☢☢M!18:50
javispedroI need to backport the loopback PA module someday18:50
DocScrutinizerbackport ?18:50
javispedroit allows you to configure the daemon to do that stuff for you, avoiding two IPC calls per packet..18:50
javispedroDocScrutinizer: yeah, was introduced in a more recent version of PA18:50
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DocScrutinizeromfg18:51
DocScrutinizer~kill pukeaudio, with fire18:51
* infobot shoots a ionized graviton gun at pukeaudio, with fire18:51
javispedrowould do wonders for PA-based radio apps battery life18:51
javispedroyou cannot use large packet sizes because of increased latency, quite noticeable when tuning..18:52
javispedroso small packets -> IPC overhead -> cpu usage.18:52
DocScrutinizernukiing that friggin PA that follows that "APE centric approach" and reinvents the wheel, just without spokes, that would really help save some battery18:53
javispedro~nuke pulseaudio18:53
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at pulseaudio ... B☢☢M!18:53
DocScrutinizerwait til L.P. is near18:53
DocScrutinizerjust some 30min ago it stroke me startupd is another einvention of the whell of upstart. Will this moron *never* learn?18:54
javispedrostartupd?18:54
javispedroyou mean systemd?18:54
DocScrutinizererr yes18:54
derfHuge record/play skews are very common.18:55
derfBecause in most devices they use separate clocks.18:55
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DocScrutinizerderf: on PA, you bet they are18:55
derfI mean in the hardware... way before it gets to software.18:55
DocScrutinizerderf: sane drivers know how to deal with that18:55
derfYou let me know when you find sane drivers.18:56
DocScrutinizerPA and L.P. started to come up with a "solution" that simply ignores that fact18:56
DocScrutinizerderf: a proper concept does NO assumptions on the accuracy of hw clocks for AD and DA, just syncing buffers in a way that fills/yanks frames or buffer segments when needed18:57
DocScrutinizerderf: you got that problem for syncing audio to a video stream ALL the time18:58
DocScrutinizerand there are evidently working concepts how to deal with it18:58
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derfSyncing audio and video is completely different.18:59
DocScrutinizerdefinitely not18:59
derfYou just measure the audio playout rate and display video frames accordingly.18:59
DocScrutinizeryou got still one master clock (usually systemclock) and a number of not synced clocks for the streams that need close supervision and adjustment19:00
DocScrutinizersame thing for RTP (VoIP), even more complex there as you not only got your local AD and DA clock and systemclock master,  but also those of the far end which you need to sync to19:01
derfNo one actually uses the system clock to sync audio and video.19:02
DocScrutinizeraudio / streaming-at-large isn't for noobs19:02
derfAs for RTP... most things just drop packets and/or invoke PLC to stretch the audio.19:02
DocScrutinizerderf: I don't even need to start to show you about your prev staement being false19:03
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derfOkay, show me a system that actually resamples to keep things in sync.19:03
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DocScrutinizerpff, look for yourself, you'll find some19:03
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derfUh huh.19:04
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DocScrutinizerand e.g twinkle definitely uses systemclock to sync the up to 6 audio streams19:04
DocScrutinizernot to talkj about all the windows commercial video players19:05
promgvmhello19:05
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DocScrutinizerderf: btw your initial assumption also is incorrect, in most devices the audio card has only one master clock that's used to scale down to the different AD and DA channels' samplerate19:06
DocScrutinizerso generally they are "same clock"19:07
DocScrutinizerat least as rec and pb are same audiocard19:08
SpeedEvilSystems with multiple 'audio cards'19:08
DocScrutinizer...have hacks you find in internet to sync their clocks19:08
DocScrutinizerhw mods19:09
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DocScrutinizerfor studio grade multitrack recording19:09
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DocScrutinizernobody's going to implement separate hw clock generator chips on a single soundcard for rec and pb19:10
DocScrutinizerno sane rationale to spend the additional money for a useless and bad feature19:10
SpeedEvilIndeed.19:11
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DocScrutinizerbut obviously PA author L.P. had NFC about all that19:13
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DocScrutinizerbtw this common clock being the only rationale why ALSA devices always consist of a downstream&upstream19:15
SpeedEvilIf you're wanting to be truyly arbitrary about I and O, you need to support resampling.19:15
derfSo, I downloaded the twinkle source and spent a few minutes looking.19:16
DocScrutinizerwhich ALSA does via "plug" and "resample" plugins, on your discretion19:16
derfIt does not resample to maintain sync.19:16
derfInstead it drops packets, just like I said.19:16
DocScrutinizerI never clamed anything else19:16
DocScrutinizerand indeed I never suggested resampling19:17
derf12:02:41 < derf> As for RTP... most things just drop packets and/or invoke PLC to stretch the audio.19:17
DocScrutinizerfor dynamic syncing of streams19:17
derf12:03:04 < DocScrutinizer> derf: I don't even need to start to show you about your prev staement being false19:17
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derf12:03:32 < derf> Okay, show me a system that actually resamples to keep things in sync.19:18
derf12:03:57 < DocScrutinizer> pff, look for yourself, you'll find some19:18
derfThat seems to be the opposite of "never suggeseted resampling".19:18
derfI'm going to stop talking to you now, as I don't think you have a clue.19:18
DocScrutinizer[2011-05-25 18:02:08] <derf> No one actually uses the system clock to sync audio and video. [2011-05-25 18:03:03] <DocScrutinizer> derf: I don't even need to start to show you about your prev staement being false19:18
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derfI said "audio and video" for a reason... your counter-example was multiple audio streams. Which I already said was a completely different case.19:19
derfAnyway.19:19
derf-= The End =-19:19
DocScrutinizerderf: I'm fine with you stopping talking to me now, as *I* think you think I'm an idiot19:20
DocScrutinizerand I think you're probably in a relatively small and exclusive club with this notion - at least when it comes to my technical merits19:21
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LantiziaMohammadAG, Lo, I'm using your modified apt package so I can download packages normally restricted to having to use the Ovi Store (handy when you want a one-liner apt-get to get all your apps back)... are all the Ovi stuff in the maemo.nokia.com repo?  like I'm found bounce and angrybirds but not the angry birds levels or even firefox19:30
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MohammadAGLantizia, yep19:31
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LantiziaMohammadAG, any easy way of finding the corresponding names? (apt-cache search doesn't seem to be helping me much) also what about the pay-for ovi apps? they in there too? (paid for the levels you see)19:34
Lantiziabrb need to pop to vets19:34
MohammadAGpaid ones are on a different server19:36
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ShadowJKmost (all?) video players use audio clock as "master clock".. System clock is only used to sleep until estimated next video or audio frame20:04
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ShadowJKAlsa plugins and pulseaudio type things can often lose resolution and accuracy of reading the audio clock, causing audio/video desync or jittery framerates and/or choppy audio20:05
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ShadowJKConsidering the architecture for most video players were designed when P3-500 was a reasonable cpu in the "performance" class, where resampling 44.1kHz stereo took 30% CPU, it was never even considered :)20:10
JaffaMorning, all20:12
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: it's basically irrelevant what's your master clock. The point is you have to nominate just ONE master clock, and sync all the media streams to that, by either inserting/dropping whole audio snippets (packages) or single samples/frames (which is a sort of poor man's resampling), or by dynamically adjusting the slave clock of the media stream running out of sync. Basically same applies to video. Esp if you're playing a 25fps video20:12
DocScrutinizerto a video-card/monitor that's running at an arbitrary vsync of e.g 77.8Hz20:12
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ShadowJKthe good thing is that your video clock is (almost) always faster than your video stream, so there's no need to start interpolating or resampling video in time domain20:15
DocScrutinizerindeed20:15
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ShadowJKbut with audio you'd get stutter, crackling or overlapping segments if you had such an approach20:15
DocScrutinizerusually doesn't really matter that much - at least on voip that's the common approach20:16
DocScrutinizerresample (e.g by alsa plughw plugin) to the roughly correct sample rate for the hw, the insert/drop single (usually) 20ms buffer segments20:17
ShadowJKI think people are less sensitive to distortion in telephony for historical reasons20:18
DocScrutinizerfor that you need a somewhat accurate idea of how much is your audio buffer's fill up20:18
DocScrutinizerand it seems that's exactly where PA fails on alsa compatibility plugin20:19
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DocScrutinizerit never shows up on playing back usual mp3/wav/whatever as in that case your audio hw is the master clock source20:20
ShadowJKin many cases it works better than alsa's dmix plugin :-)20:20
DocScrutinizerbut it spoils your audio as soon as your app tries to closely manage the audio buffer directly20:20
ShadowJKdmix is a master of losing buffer fill info20:20
DocScrutinizernever seen this happening on twinkle20:21
DocScrutinizerthere is one alsa function call that sometimes fails, twinkle audiodev takes care to work around this20:21
DocScrutinizeriirc it's been exactly about get_buffer_fill_percentage() or buffer_reset() or whatever20:22
ShadowJKget_delay too20:23
DocScrutinizerwho does need that anyway?20:23
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ShadowJKyou want to know how big the buffer (software and hw buffers) is so you can time video to audio20:24
ShadowJKbuffer resets are generally so time consuming and messy on alsa you'd be better off making up shit to feed the buffer so it doesn't run empty20:25
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: (want to know how big) on ALSA you *define* size of buffer on opening a audiodevice20:27
DocScrutinizerif you need low latency close timing control audio, you go for smal segment sizes and also few segment sizes of your audio buffer20:28
DocScrutinizers/few segment sizes/few segments/.20:28
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ShadowJKdefininig it only works within the limitations of the harware and the plugins. Every plugin that does something non-trivial adds a buffer. From buffer fill you can calculate a time, but that time is "time until exception", get delay is "time until buffer tail comes out of speaker"20:32
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: I'm not sure about that, as in "that's not a buffer that adds latency, it justgets one chunk of data, processes it in max CPU grunt way it can, and passes it down to next plugin"20:33
DocScrutinizerthere's no double commit A/B swap or whatever20:34
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DocScrutinizerafaik20:34
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DocScrutinizerthis async "each plugin has a buffer" approach is what PA does aiui20:35
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DocScrutinizerwhile for all I know the ALSA plugin stack should be strictly sync from bottom up to app API20:36
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DocScrutinizerthat's why all the get_delay() rant L.P. started on ALSA is not very coherent to me20:38
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DocScrutinizerI *could* be completely wrong though20:39
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ShadowJKSo dmix has this single buffer, and has to wait on every client to feed it a single frame, before it can be fed further on?20:40
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ShadowJKand if it has to wait and can't accept more data, what does it report through buffer fill, and what happens to apps that tries feed it more? :p20:41
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: (has to wait for each client) that'S the idea of an event driven API, yes20:42
DocScrutinizerwhat happens to apps that try feed more? duh! they block on write(), no?20:43
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DocScrutinizer(most simply API concept, of course you can also do a nonblock write(), and several other interface designs)20:44
DocScrutinizer(up to callback)20:45
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ShadowJKso while dmix waits, the buffer to the app is full, but audio runs, and you get a difference between buffer fill and get delay :p20:45
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: sorry, I have to run. But your between-the-lines concern isn't applying20:46
DocScrutinizerit's how hw buffered IO works20:46
DocScrutinizerall hw IO20:46
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DocScrutinizerif you need a delay <hw-buffersize, then you need to config hw to use a smaller buffer. There's no other way20:50
DocScrutinizerbbl20:50
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RST38hhttp://imprint.printmag.com/daily-heller/a-curious-similarity/20:52
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yigalI want to share my home's wireless connection from my n900 -> a computer with no wifi, but with bluetooth and usb.  I've used http://wiki.maemo.org/USB_networking#Host_USB_Network_Configuration to connect the devices via usb, the computer is running Ubuntu 11.04.  I'm hoping someone here might know how to do it and is willing to help me set it up.20:58
yigalRight now I'm connected via bluetooth but that isn't as fast a connection as I could have using usb20:59
Itschuehello21:00
yigalhello21:00
SpeedEvilyigal: You mean you want the n900 to act like a wifi card for your computer?21:00
SpeedEvilNot 3g?21:00
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yigalSpeedEvil: yes, I mean right now I believe that is what I'm doing via bluetooth21:02
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yigalSpeedEvil: there is at least no sign that my 3g is working but a sign shows wifi, and I have the device connected via bluetooth the my n90021:03
SpeedEvilIn principle - bring up the wifi interface - then raise the USB interface, then set routes.21:03
yigalSpeedEvil: it's the routing that I'm ????21:03
yigalSpeedEvil: I'll look into it21:03
SpeedEvilSorry - I'm tired. I've done this before - but I forgot.21:04
SpeedEvilHack - you can use socks and ssh -D21:04
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yigalSpeedEvil: true enough :D, I'm glad that you were able to get it going before21:05
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yigalgives me hope21:07
yigal:D21:07
jo-erlendMy N900 is dead and has been for a few days now. I thought the battery was empty, because when I started it, it suddenly shut down after a few seconds. It now looks like the usb plug may be damaged, but I've connected the USB cable and the LED flashes read very shortly and every second or so.21:07
jo-erlendit seems similar to this issue: http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/t5/Maemo-Devices/OMG-My-N900-won-t-charge-just-a-blinking-RED-light-flashes-when/td-p/71592921:07
jo-erlendany advise will be greatly appreciated. Specially if it leads to my being able to get it back up and running.21:07
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, from video player pov, I don't need low delay, delay can be whatever and if the audio subsystems buffers 60 secs that's fine too, but whatever the delay is, I want to know it :p21:09
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jo-erlendit is suggested that this might be a security issue caused by turning the device on and off many times and that reflashing it might do the trick. The question, then, becomes: how? I can't get any life in it at all.21:09
jo-erlendthe red LED flash is the biggest lifesign I've seen yet.21:09
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: that's pure nonsense21:09
ShadowJKred flash every second or so sounds like the charger chip emitting an error, resetting, and retrying21:10
jo-erlendShadowJK, any ideas?21:10
DocScrutinizerjo-erlend: get a new battery21:11
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: ,,,from a ALSA PoV21:11
jo-erlendDocScrutinizer, I've never had any problems with the battery before though.21:11
ItschueDocScrutinizer  i think my n900 i now working wihout reboot error after several flashs21:11
DocScrutinizerjo-erlend: yoh, it just breaks at a certain moment21:11
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MohammadAG~seen timeless_xchat21:12
jo-erlendbut I seem to recall that it is possible for the battery to be so drained that it cannot be charged using the phone?21:12
infobottimeless_xchat <~timeless@firefox/developer/timeless> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 2d 19h 53m 51s ago, saying: 'sivang: what's that url i need?'.21:12
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SpeedEviljo-erlend: nope.21:12
ShadowJKI don't care how big the delay is,because any sensible sized audio buffers will inherently have too big a delay anyway, so I always have to feed the audio much ahead of video anyways21:12
SpeedEviljo-erlend: It charges in hardware to a minimal level, without anything booting up.21:12
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: what makes you think "any sensible sized buffer is too big"?21:13
jo-erlendwhen I try to charge using a USB cable to my computer, then it flashes red. If I connect the charger that uses my wall as power source, then nothing happens. Any ideas why this might be the case?21:13
jacekowskijo-erlend: connection problems21:14
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: ALSA could handle buffers down to 2 segmants of 1 frame each, I guess21:14
DocScrutinizerwhich would mean your app has to have realy short latency when the signal arives, whatever it is SIGIOWAIT or dunno what21:15
ShadowJKjo-erlend, no it doesn't indicate a security measure. It indicates that there is a charging problem. The problem could be your dc adapter, cable, plug, port, n900, battery terminals, battery pins, or battery21:15
ShadowJKI mean you'd have issues reliably keeping the buffer filled21:16
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jo-erlendno doubt, it is the plug in the phone that's faulty. I wiggled a little bit and I got that orange light indicating that it was charging and that little shake to indicate that it was switching on, but then it died.21:17
SpeedEviljo-erlend: have you tried replacing the USB cable?21:17
DocScrutinizercleaning the receptacle cavities21:17
DocScrutinizercheck with a magnifying glass21:18
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jo-erlendSpeedEvil, yes. the charger works if I hold it properly. the usb cable only flashes red.21:19
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: so use a larger buffer spec when opening the ALSA device, and be sure your delay is N-1 segments * samplerate * frames/segment when your app gets signalled to deliver the next chunk of data - after initial fill up of whole buffer with N segments of data21:20
ShadowJKusb cable connected to a hub, laptop, front usb ports on a desktop, back port on a desktop pc?21:20
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: that's how buffering is supposed to work21:22
DocScrutinizer(of course ALSA has way more nifty things like min-fill and max-fill thresholds etc)21:22
DocScrutinizerbut basically that's the way things work21:22
DocScrutinizerit's quite impossible and also useless to get current delay to a resolution < one segment worth of audio21:24
ShadowJKAll I want to know is how many bytes are in the buffer, and how much delay there is between buffers empty and sound from speakers stopping (the last one is often sufficiently close to 0 that it doesn't matter). get_delay is supposed to be both combined21:24
DocScrutinizerwhere delay = actual_real_time -  currently_played_back_timestamp21:25
jo-erlendis it normal for N900 to make a ... muted bell sound when it dies from lack of power?21:26
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DocScrutinizeryes21:26
zakkkkmShould i enable HWSYNC?21:27
DocScrutinizerthough for me it sounds more like an alien got beaten to death by a piano21:27
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: you fill your audio buffe with segment 1 + 2, you start video and audio same moment. When ALSA asks for segment 3 you know it just finsihed with segment 121:28
ShadowJKactually ideal time ref for get_delay would be audio clock ;p21:28
DocScrutinizer(assuming a 2 segments buffer)21:28
ShadowJKit works perfectly if you have for example frag-size 1024 and fragments 16 in alsa, because you get buffer fill un multiples of 1024 and get_delay in worst case has granularity similar to that21:30
DocScrutinizerif your video is still in timeframe of segment one when alsa asks for segment 3 then you're late on video playback. when you're a large way into timeframe 2 or even started 3 then you'Re too fast with video -do whatever you need to correct it21:31
DocScrutinizersame applies for a buffer consisting of 8 or 16 segments accordingly21:31
ShadowJKbut then all bets are off if you don't talk to the hw device anymore and have to go through a plugin chain, and you get all sorts of weird buffer sizes and fragment numbers, and granularities21:31
DocScrutinizerno need for get_delay() *really*21:31
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: sorry, don't see any of the issues you just mentioned21:32
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ShadowJKyour method is fine, but in practice you get fewer segments than you asked for, and much bigger segments than you asked for21:34
MohammadAG<jo-erlend> is it normal for N900 to make a ... muted bell sound when it dies from lack of power?21:34
DocScrutinizeranyway bottom line is: PissAudio isn't going to cure *any* of the problems related to audio playback21:34
MohammadAGthe splashscreen makes that sound21:34
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jo-erlendMohammadAG, oh, ok. Well, after wiggling the plug a little bit, I could see that familiar orange LED and it tried to boot, showing those dots before it made that sound and died. :/21:36
jo-erlendhave any of you people attempted to fix a broken USB connection? How difficult is it to get to and is there lots of electronics close to it?21:37
MohammadAGI'm pretty sure someone did it21:38
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lcukjo-erlend, http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-04-22.log.html#t2011-04-22T17:15:1721:41
lcukwould not work at all if the usb plug has actually come off the board fully21:41
lcukbut seems to work nicely21:41
ShadowJKpulseaudio only works or adds a benefit when it has exclusive access to the audio device, because then it can actually get the parameters it asks for, and provide accurate timing and buffer fill info to its clients. The additional benefit is of course that it has documentation, and that the documentation is comprehensible to more people  than the ones who wrote it ;p21:41
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MohammadAGeldar's rumors are getting boring21:42
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jacekowskiShadowJK: what?21:44
jacekowskiShadowJK: pulseaudio is source of problems21:44
jacekowskiand that's all21:44
ShadowJKArguably the effort spent on pulseaudio could've been spent on fixing alsa bugs, alsa api, and alsa docs instead, but that brings us back to to alsa being incomprehensible to everyone except those who wrote it, and a few others21:45
jacekowskithat's why there are things like openAL and other friendly libraries21:45
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: indeed21:46
* RST38h throws up at the mention of OpenAL21:46
DocScrutinizernone of the arguments to start PukeAudio holds valid or delivers after 2 (?) years with this shit21:46
RST38hOnce again, someone should simply update /dev/dsp API to the latest trends21:46
RST38hScrew ALSA, PA, OpenAL, etc21:46
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RST38hadd userspace mixing if necessary, use sockets instead of dev nodes21:47
ShadowJKOSS :)21:47
ShadowJKiirc oss comes with libalsa interface these days too21:48
RST38hAlso, preventively kill or castrate anyone who comes up with his own audio framework21:48
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ruskiedon't need libalsa interface21:50
ruskiejust install alsa-lib and redirect all output via asoundrc21:50
ruskiethere's some alsa plugin as well involved iirc21:51
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ShadowJKWell, alsa had, what, 5 years, and nothing happened after those years of user and distro despair :)22:09
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ShadowJKSo I guess it's only fair to let something else try for another 5 years :P22:10
* DocScrutinizer feels so SICK22:10
ShadowJKiirc, the guy who started pulseaudio was also one of those "argh, not yet another audio framework and daemon" guys, amusingly enough :P22:11
ruskiemost are22:11
ShadowJK(maybe that made him actually try use alsa)22:11
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: orly? L.P.?? nah!22:11
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ShadowJKI might be thinking of one of the other projects that started at about same time as pulseaudio :)22:13
DocScrutinizerafaict he just looked at ALSA, said "Meh, how's delay handled there? Now this is something I can do better (and ignore all the rest of really highly qualified devel crowd)"22:13
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DocScrutinizerhe also postulated ALSA has no (working) dmix, and no per app volume (aka softvol plugin)22:14
DocScrutinizerfact is dmix always worked for me, while PA caused nothing but pain in hte ass for its implementation of mixing 0 to 0 and eating 30% of CPU to do that22:15
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DocScrutinizerand the friggin volume-per-app been published by me (rather late after it got available) here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/twinklephone/message/1731  -- when got PukeAudio started?22:17
ShadowJKdmix never worked for me. the example confs don't work, and dmix's "stealth" sound daemon hangs all the time :/22:17
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ShadowJKYou know, alsa might be superior technically in every way, but it doesn't matter if nobody can figure out how to properly set it up22:20
ruskiewith alsa I mostly wondered why I had to set things up22:21
ruskieinstead of the thing just working22:21
ShadowJKheh :P22:21
ruskieoss4 just worked22:21
ruskieper-app, multiple apps accessing it22:22
nox-that btw also how things are on freebsd22:23
nox-oss compatible22:23
DocScrutinizerruskie: just like ALSA did for me, since 1.01 the latest22:24
DocScrutinizeractually mostly since 0.9922:25
DocScrutinizerbefore that dmix wasn't set up correctly by default22:25
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: btw how the hell is PA going to offer better data to user than ALSA, when it got direct access to the hw audiocard, which in the end for PA is... ALSA22:26
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DocScrutinizerPA is just hiding the direct access to hw parameters that you get via ALSA API, and gives you info about PA's own borked internals instead22:28
ShadowJKBecause it doesn't go through dmix, or any other plugins. That's where the problems start :)22:28
DocScrutinizermeh22:29
DocScrutinizershow me the problems introduced by dmix22:29
DocScrutinizeryou can do very easily, by using aplay -v22:29
ShadowJKFirst link me a friggin conf of working dmix ;p22:29
DocScrutinizerand pasting the diagnostic output - I doubt PA got sth similar22:29
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: you won't find any working on your PA infected system22:30
DocScrutinizerand sorry, but no - I can't tell you what to do to get rid of PA to test plain dmix22:31
ShadowJKMy debian box doesn't have pulseaudio22:31
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MohammadAGUTF-8 is unicode right?22:34
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ShadowJKIn the sense that hamburger is food, yes22:35
lcukMohammadAG, UTF-8 is an 8bit encoding of unicode22:35
MohammadAGthanks22:36
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licensedanybody already work with opencv with python? i'm trying "import cv" and "import opencv" and i got "No Module Named opencv22:37
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: http://www.xs4all.nl/~mfnboer/twinkle/faq.html#alsa_no_sound  /faq -> general 1)22:38
DocScrutinizer~rape xs4all22:38
* infobot takes xs4all behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams22:38
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: if there's no similar definition anywhere on your debian system, then go kick somebody else's arse22:42
DocScrutinizerthis is really bare standard on all boxes I installed since ~5 years22:43
ShadowJK/etc/alsa is pretty much empty22:43
DocScrutinizertry usr/hsare/alsa22:44
DocScrutinizertoldya it's *standard*22:44
DocScrutinizersince ALSA0.9922:46
DocScrutinizeror 1.0122:46
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DocScrutinizerso no more need to get it into /etc22:46
DocScrutinizerNB ALSA got sponsored and maintained by SuSE, and this is from a SuSE(8?) box22:47
DocScrutinizerit's quite possible other distros never got the turn to properly set up ALSA on their shit22:48
DocScrutinizerand possibly that's also been the *true* reason to start PA22:48
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DocScrutinizerand you bet the ALSA integration into distros won't get any better since PA came over us like plague22:51
ShadowJKIt's not like anyone actually understands how to do "alsa integration"...22:53
DocScrutinizeryeah, way too hard to c&p those files in /usr/share/alsa22:53
DocScrutinizerI admit frankly I also don't understand all of that, but it "just works" - for me, on OpenSUSE22:54
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MoonTigerhi guys22:55
MoonTiger:)22:55
DocScrutinizeryo MoonTiger22:55
DocScrutinizerhow's life with your new N900?22:55
MoonTigercan you help me get the sdk tools set up ?22:55
MoonTigerloving it22:55
MoonTiger:)22:55
MoonTigeri followed the wiki instructions but got nowhere22:55
MoonTigeri have the vm running on my windows partition but i hate windows22:56
MoonTigeri have an xubuntu partition just for maemo dev work22:56
MoonTigerbut cannot get it up and running *sigh*22:56
DocScrutinizerMoonTiger: join your request with damnshock who should be here as he asked same question in #maemo-ssu and got advised to ask here22:56
MoonTigeri'll give it another go but it didn't end well22:57
MoonTiger:)22:57
MoonTigeri want to wite a sharing plugin for my website22:57
MoonTigerthen do a few small aps22:57
MoonTigerlaging a bit too i think22:58
* DocScrutinizer suggests to open #maemo-get_sdk_up channel, with fixed schedules when an experienced devel is helping newbies to get that pile-o-shit running22:58
MoonTigerheh i'm not technically a noob on either linux or dev work ... or even maemo to be honest ... so i *should* be able to do it22:59
MoonTigeri'll try again and report back22:59
MoonTiger;)22:59
DocScrutinizerI'll ask x-fade to add 50 karma points to that brave devel's account ;-D22:59
DocScrutinizerMoonTiger: it's for sure a good idea to get help here. It seems a LOT of users fail on that enigma23:00
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MoonTigerok thnx ... i want to try again now anyways and it doesnt matter if i screw this whole install up as its just for this23:00
DocScrutinizerand there seems to be few to no proper wiki pages to instruct23:00
merlin1991sb comes straight from hell23:00
DocScrutinizerindeed merlin199123:00
MoonTigerit does that23:01
MoonTigermaybe its just easier to dev on the N900 itself :)23:01
merlin1991http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation23:01
merlin1991covers it enough though23:02
merlin1991at least I was able to install it that way myself :D23:02
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG is a really great instructor when it comes to SDK / SB - I am afraid he got fed up by the job though ;-D23:02
MoonTigermerlin1991, yah i went thru that but it leads nowhere23:02
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merlin1991but the whole process takes forever23:02
MoonTigeri'll try it again23:02
merlin1991MoonTiger: what's your base os?23:02
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MoonTigeri tried to use the wizard thing and i think tha might be what srewed up23:02
MoonTigeri installed a xubuntu 11.04 just for this on a spare partition23:03
DocScrutinizerMoonTiger: hint#1: the script there for installation is worth nuttin23:03
MoonTigeri figured23:03
MoonTigeri'll start over and do it manually23:03
DocScrutinizerexactly23:03
merlin1991the wizards suxx23:03
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MoonTigerit seemed too nice to be true23:04
DocScrutinizernah it just simply FAILS23:04
MoonTigeryah ... it dies half way thru23:04
merlin1991but this has proven to work: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation#Installing_Maemo_5_SDK_on_x86-32_Debian_based_distribution23:04
merlin1991get the 2 sh chmod them dun them be happy23:04
merlin1991s/dun/run/23:04
infobotmerlin1991 meant: get the 2 sh chmod them run them be happy23:04
DocScrutinizerand, as MohammadAG (?) said: there's no resume, so go thru dl-hell over and over again23:04
MoonTigerright23:04
MoonTigeri'll report back :)23:04
MoonTigerthnx23:04
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DocScrutinizeryw23:05
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merlin1991I wonder what sb is going todo when I install meego sdk to the same machine23:07
merlin1991prob running some hidden rm -rf /megosdk script :D23:07
MoonTigerminimal bootstrap or which install?23:08
MoonTigerruntime and all dev pkgs?23:08
merlin1991MoonTiger: what are the other options?23:08
merlin1991yea that sounds reasonable23:09
MoonTigercoolio23:09
merlin1991prepare for quite some dl23:09
MoonTigerok well its downloading stuff so thats good :)23:09
merlin1991especially when you come to the nokia binary stuff23:09
* MoonTiger makes some tea23:09
DocScrutinizersome 2GB, you shoud have twice that free on /23:09
MoonTigeri have 14Gb for this partition23:09
DocScrutinizershould fit :-)23:10
DocScrutinizerscratchbox, the idiot package that installs to /23:11
merlin1991I actually would suggest installing sb to a vm image23:11
merlin1991and instantly making a snapshot after finishing the install23:11
merlin1991I did mess mine up beyond repair23:11
merlin1991twice23:11
DocScrutinizernah, that's level 2 of the adventure23:11
MoonTigerits ok ... this partition is like a vm for me23:12
MoonTigerchromium and sync is neat23:12
merlin1991yeah but partition != snapshot you can revert to :D23:12
MoonTigerits all part of the fun23:12
snappyHow do I identify which device is the sdcard from the shell?23:12
DocScrutinizerhowever cp -A /scratchbox /SB-backup is surely a good idea if you got the space23:13
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MoonTigeri could clonezilla the partition23:13
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: nope that doesn't work23:13
merlin1991tried that :D23:13
DocScrutinizerdarm, rats!!23:13
merlin1991dies on all the internal weird stuff sb uses fro the emulator23:13
DocScrutinizeryou mustn't cp while logged in to sb!23:13
merlin1991I did it from outside23:14
DocScrutinizerit does nasty bindmount magic23:14
merlin1991but the funniest results I got when trying to git add /scratchbox23:14
DocScrutinizerdoesn't matter, a mere rm -rf /scratchbox kills your system, when you got sb "started"23:14
merlin1991sb "starts" by default23:15
merlin1991it runs in the bg23:15
merlin1991at least some process does23:15
DocScrutinizernot here23:15
DocScrutinizerhave to do some login or sth23:15
merlin1991yea23:15
merlin1991but I still watch some kind of halting sb worker / whatever msg when shutting down @ the end23:15
DocScrutinizerjeeez, that'd be it, SB running by default, from boot23:16
snappyI think my sdcard doesn't have a filesystem formatted or a partition, how would I go about doing this in maemo?23:16
keriomkfs?23:16
merlin1991snappy: from the device?23:16
snappyyeah23:16
DocScrutinizersnappy: filemanager, click-hold ->context menu23:17
snappyDocScrutinizer: thanks23:17
DocScrutinizerhth23:17
DocScrutinizersometimes it fails, then come back here23:17
snappyworked great, formatted and finally mounted.23:18
DocScrutinizer\o/23:18
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: is there a tool to partition on the n90023:18
DocScrutinizersfdisk23:18
snappyah yes, sfdisk, forgot about that23:18
DocScrutinizerthough it's not a tool, it's a desease23:18
DocScrutinizerI suggest cfdisk23:19
merlin1991last time I did some commandline editing I used fdisk23:19
merlin1991s/editing/partition editing/23:20
DocScrutinizercfdisk is just "friendly"23:20
infobotmerlin1991 meant: last time I did some commandline partition editing I used fdisk23:20
merlin1991but sfdisk is all we have on the n900 right?23:20
DocScrutinizerwhile sfdisk is a bitch23:20
DocScrutinizerhmm, I got cfdisk, don't ask me where from. Suggest apt-cache search23:20
merlin1991gnu tools?23:21
DocScrutinizerprolly23:21
merlin1991there's actually a cfdisk package23:21
MoonTigerwow a lot of stuff being installed23:22
DocScrutinizerya bet23:22
* MoonTiger makes more tea23:22
merlin1991the trickiest thing about sb is to find out where you're supposed to put your damn source23:22
DocScrutinizercan I get a cup?23:22
DocScrutinizerhehehe23:22
merlin1991I wanted to compile just a hello world and spend 30 mins finding out all the nasty rebinding sb does when switching targets23:23
MoonTigermerlin1991, yah23:23
MoonTigerthe whole sb thing is a bit confusing to me tbh23:23
DocScrutinizer /scratchbox/users/jr/home/jr/starhash-enabler/debian/changelog23:23
merlin1991I also didn't get it why sb ships it's own git within sb when you're going to use outside code editor and versioning anyway23:23
DocScrutinizerYMMV23:24
ShadowJKI'm even more confused when I use a VM to run an OS to run SB23:24
merlin1991(also the git within sb is really old)23:24
MoonTigerShadowJK, tell me about that one :/23:24
MoonTigerdev for android is way easier to start at least23:24
DocScrutinizerMoonTiger: there's been sth called MADDE, never looked into it but aiui it's way more "user friendly"23:25
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: only as far as you have no external dependencies23:26
DocScrutinizermhm23:26
DocScrutinizeryeah, gather as much23:26
merlin1991if you have them it's more convienent to get into sb and you apt in there23:26
DocScrutinizerit's strictly app (Qt?) development23:26
merlin1991it is, but ofc you can get it to accept your libs too :D23:26
MoonTigernot sure about qt23:26
Itschuehello23:27
DocScrutinizeranyway for /scratchbox/users/jr/home/jr/starhash-enabler/debian/changelog or whatever it's for you, you better get a symlink or even bindmount23:28
merlin1991unless you just love it to type long paths into your term23:28
DocScrutinizerto /scratchbox/users/jr/home/jr/YourProject actually23:29
DocScrutinizeror simply want to use vi in SB native, nuttin else23:29
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merlin1991tbh what's your alternative to vi on ubuntu native23:30
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merlin1991gedit?23:30
MoonTigerwhoa! thats done but wtf is that crap about the nokia binaries??23:30
DocScrutinizerbut then you probably really should consider developing on N900 instead ;-P23:30
merlin1991the closed bits of maemo23:30
MoonTiger*sigh*23:30
merlin1991you need them too23:30
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MoonTigerso i have to do an apt-get *inside* scratchbox now?23:31
merlin1991yep23:31
merlin1991first edit sources.list23:31
merlin1991and you have todo it for both targets23:31
MoonTigerok ... did i do the last apt-get in sb too?23:31
DocScrutinizerhehehe, I cloudily recall the pain I felt when doing all that23:31
Itschuemy n900 shutdown by itself ant wont start23:31
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merlin1991MoonTiger: everything in the wiki after /scracthbox/login23:32
DocScrutinizerrecharge then23:32
MoonTigerok in sb now23:32
merlin1991has to be done in sb23:32
MoonTigerright23:32
MoonTigergot it23:32
merlin1991except for the dns fix, if you need it23:32
DocScrutinizerMoonTiger: hint#2 - do a 'mount' in your standard system xterm now, to see what sv really did to your system23:33
MoonTigerno!23:33
MoonTiger:)23:33
DocScrutinizersb*23:33
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: what did you use todo the starhas enabler?23:33
MoonTigersb_conf not found23:33
MoonTiger*sigh*23:33
merlin1991because it's sb-conf23:34
DocScrutinizermerlin1991: nuttin, it's just preinstall and postrm scripts23:34
MoonTigeroooops sb-conf23:34
MoonTiger;)23:34
merlin1991damn it23:34
merlin1991maybe you did another package too? :D23:34
MoonTigerwtf is it asking me "terminal type" for?23:34
DocScrutinizerbut of course I used x86-kate to edit those files23:35
merlin1991when I first tried doing something in sb I came from a win / visual studio bg23:36
DocScrutinizerreducing inetraction to SB terminal to the bare mandatory minimum23:36
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merlin1991I was missing all the comfort an ide gives you23:36
DocScrutinizermerlin1991: haha23:36
DocScrutinizernice scary experience23:36
merlin1991especially when navigating multiple code files23:36
merlin1991the thing I missed most was the go to definition part23:37
merlin1991looking at code from other people that's so handy when you see a function call and wonder wtf that one actually does23:37
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MoonTigerummmmm any idea why its asking me for my terminal type?23:38
merlin1991nope23:38
DocScrutinizermerlin1991: keep in mind SB is some kinda chroot, and you should look at it like a black (well gray) box, using your normal tools to edit, copy, whatnot inside that lengthy path23:38
DocScrutinizerjust kickof a compile run in SB, then go back to your used tools to continue hunting bugs23:38
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: I realized that, and then failed in the attempt to set up a working eclipse environment23:39
merlin1991that's about where I gave up :D23:39
DocScrutinizerhmm, I never got eclipse to really work for me as well, sth with git(?) always made me scratch head and give up on it23:40
DocScrutinizerthat's basically why I refuse to touch that whole crap23:40
DocScrutinizernot really fun to use that environment to build anything23:41
merlin1991I wouldn't mind going to a term for sb and git23:41
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DocScrutinizeryeah, but exclipse seemed to madatorily depend on it23:42
merlin1991yea23:42
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* merlin1991 just wanted the code editing helpers from exclipse, but instead got a bunch of errors23:42
DocScrutinizerand I had a plain project dir that I never got married to that git over web thing that is meant to contribute to large projects23:42
merlin1991just booted my dev notebook23:43
merlin1991I want to finally finish my project :D23:43
DocScrutinizerin fact it's been twinklephone where this eclipse adventure started and ended23:43
DocScrutinizerso quite a few years in the past23:44
merlin1991ffs what did ubuntu doo23:44
merlin1991wireless card not recognized again23:44
DocScrutinizerpcmcia?23:45
merlin1991nah23:45
merlin1991just a crappy chip23:45
DocScrutinizerrmmod && insmod (aka modprobe (-r) )23:45
merlin1991yea just wondering how the module was called again23:46
DocScrutinizerlsmod|less23:46
MoonTigerok so now we download *more* stuff23:46
DocScrutinizererr, maybe that doesn't help ;-)23:46
DocScrutinizerMoonTiger: yeah, prepare for more to come :-D23:46
merlin1991DocScrutinizer:  problem is I don't see the card in lspci23:46
DocScrutinizerhmm23:47
* MoonTiger settles in23:47
* merlin1991 gets a screwdriver23:47
MoonTigerhahaha23:47
DocScrutinizerless /var/log/boot23:47
merlin1991empty23:47
merlin1991gotta love ubuntu23:47
DocScrutinizerlastbot then, or whatever23:47
MoonTigeractually i rather dislike ubuntu as much as windows these days23:48
DocScrutinizeror "get a real distro"23:48
* MoonTiger uses arch23:48
merlin1991I should replace that ubuntu with debian23:48
merlin1991but then I'd loose my sb install!23:48
DocScrutinizer~ubuntu23:48
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, ubuntu is caca from this ass http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/3843/18427557718e22857e9rb.jpg23:48
MoonTigerlol23:49
DocScrutinizeralso: http://xkcd.com/424/23:50
MoonTigerso sb is a vm basically23:50
merlin1991that xkcd is a classic :D23:50
javispedroMoonTiger: it's more like a ... wait for it .. chroot.23:50
merlin1991only http://xkcd.com/149/ and http://xkcd.com/435/ can reach the one about ubuntu :D23:51
MoonTigerjavispedro, ahhhhhhh i c23:51
MoonTigerthe ubuntu one is classic23:51
MoonTigerjavispedro, but chroot with a diff arch yes?23:52
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javispedroyes, using qemu "user mode" emulation.23:52
merlin1991btw DocScrutinizer guess where the fcked architect of my notebook desided to put the screw for the dvd drive23:52
MoonTigerjavispedro, thnx ... it kinda sorta makes a little bit of sense now23:53
merlin1991below the keyboard23:53
DocScrutinizerhehe23:54
DocScrutinizerwell, cya folks23:54
MoonTigerbye DocScrutinizer23:55
MoonTigerthnx23:55
DocScrutinizeryw, hope merlin1991 will help you to get a working SDK23:55
merlin1991hah, opening the back, pulling the wireless card out, and putting it back in brought it back23:55
MoonTigerseems to be going ok so far23:56
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: you're _LEAVING_? =)23:57
DocScrutinizermeh, I'm trying to check if the big bluebox is still out there23:57
javispedrothey've moved in to the north pole while you were away. it was misparked23:58

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