IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2011-05-08

Venemo	yeah, I agree - all the more reason to use something that already exists instead of reinventing the wheel again.	00:00
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DocScrutinizer	Venemo: SHR is so far down the street of no return, that I'm trying to save cssu from, they don't care about usability, for sure not about "looking good", they have their devel playground to bring another "better component replacing XYZ"	00:00
Venemo	haah	00:01
Venemo	yeah	00:02
Venemo	sounds like the complete opposite of meego	00:02
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DocScrutinizer	before they even start to think about 'looking good' they need a new platform as the old one got obsolete	00:02
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, so, what is it that's got obsolete?	00:03
DocScrutinizer	that's why SHR not seen any testing not to mention stable release since ~2 years, afaik	00:03
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Venemo	heh.	00:05
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DocScrutinizer	Venemo: May 05 17:14:23 <mickeyl> in http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko-cdevel/openmoko-cdevel.20110506.txt	00:11
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DocScrutinizer	also grep 20110507 for antric, mickeyl and DocScrutinizer	00:13
DocScrutinizer	antrik actually	00:13
Venemo	May 05 16:01:42 <antrik> DocScrutinizer: well, if you are willing to do whatever it takes to get it upstream, then you should be the one who starts the discussion on LKML...	00:13
DocScrutinizer	so what, read my answer as well	00:14
Venemo	I'm reading	00:14
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Venemo	yeah DocScrutinizer, Linux world is full of stupid politics	00:16
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Venemo	but the end comment sounds promising	00:18
Venemo	May 05 17:28:17 <mickeyl> yo, surely interesting. right now i think they're more pressuring issues, but once we have the connectivity issues sorted out, i'm sure there'll be movements towards that	00:18
DocScrutinizer	won't happen - there'll be other more pressing affairs by then	00:18
Venemo	well, I am not a kernel hacker either	00:19
DocScrutinizer	devels' playground, you know. No testing, no stable ever	00:19
Venemo	yea...	00:19
Venemo	but I don't get what's the point in that	00:19
DocScrutinizer	"let's port the shit to LG now, as N900 is not sold anymore..."	00:20
nox-	that reminds me of... http://linuxfr.org/news/linus-torvalds-l%E2%80%99interview-anniversaire-des-20%C2%A0ans-du-noyau#comment-1230981	00:20
DocScrutinizer	[9 months later] "\o/ we got modem to connect to GPRS"	00:20
Venemo	why is it that all these ports of various projects suck so miserable?	00:21
Venemo	miserably*	00:21
DocScrutinizer	becuase devels take no pride in finalizing things	00:21
nox-	lack of manpower?	00:21
SpeedEvil	Venemo: Funding.	00:21
Venemo	and why is the phone modem always the barrier?	00:21
ShadowJK	Maybe it's actually hard and maybe it takes actual effort? :-)	00:21
SpeedEvil	Venemo: Maemo probably had well over a thousand paid devs involved.	00:22
SpeedEvil	Venemo: Lack of documents.	00:22
Venemo	nor meego, nor nitdroid, nor SHR, neither of them manages to actually make a phone call.	00:22
SpeedEvil	The many-eyes fallacy.	00:22
Venemo	lack of docs may be a good excuse for Nitdroid or SHR, but not for MeeGo	00:22
SpeedEvil	The many eyes hypothesis is that with enough eyes, all bugs are shallow.	00:22
SpeedEvil	The problem is that this is only true for 'pure' code.	00:22
Venemo	"many-eyes" requires "many eyes" who _care_	00:22
SpeedEvil	Once you start to get into hardware - the number of devs who would have a clue plummets.	00:23
SpeedEvil	So have a clue * care = ~0	00:23
SpeedEvil	And progress stalls.	00:23
Venemo	I see.	00:23
ShadowJK	Meego makes phonecalls now :-)	00:23
Venemo	ShadowJK, nope, it doesn't	00:23
Venemo	not for me anyway	00:23
DocScrutinizer	SHR also does afaik, just sound is missing	00:23
Venemo	heheh	00:23
Venemo	phone call without sound is not phone call by definition.	00:24
ShadowJK	The phone calls part actually requires some code writing :-)	00:24
DocScrutinizer	maybe that changed though, during last 12h	00:24
Venemo	also, MeeGo can't connect to wifi either, and the handset ux sucks	00:24
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Venemo	they have made a _VERY_ good job on its performance however	00:24
ShadowJK	I think the idea of upstreaming everything came from the frustration of all the hw having custom drivers that break with every new release of everything else	00:25
Venemo	yeah	00:25
Venemo	and that's a good point	00:25
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: (progress stalls) and when somebody with a clue * interest points them to a flaw, to better code, to the problems involved for battery life etc, then it's "duh, we are no kernel hackers, so we gonna use what's upstream"	00:25
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ShadowJK	But then you also need people with the passion, attention to detail, motivation, and most of all, time, to write code that gets accepted upstream	00:26
SpeedEvil	Indeed.	00:27
SpeedEvil	And sometimes upstream appear to be ass-hats.	00:27
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, at this point, I think some piece of OSS software is much better destined to succeed than those that target phones. simply because they don't have to hack around the cell modem. (seems that the cell modem is always the most evil thing)	00:27
Venemo	meh	00:27
SpeedEvil	It's really not that.	00:27
SpeedEvil	Well - not that alone.	00:27
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, at this point, I think some piece of OSS software which targets _Tablets_ is much better destined to succeed than those that target _phones_. simply because they don't have to hack around the cell modem. (seems that the cell modem is always the most evil thing)	00:27
ShadowJK	And these things are more complicated than you think. For example, I am more than able myself of writing code to control the battery gauge and battery charger hardware of the N900, but I would have no friggin clue about how to get it integrated and working together with the Linux kernel, let alone working together with any operating system ontop of the kernel	00:27
DocScrutinizer	even worse, you need somebody to "defend the new code, maintain it, and you will have a hard time to explain why the existing driver can't get fixed and API has to change"	00:28
SpeedEvil	A cellphone is a _fucking_huge_ codebase.	00:28
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Venemo	sorry I typo'd the first one.	00:28
SpeedEvil	If you want it to do more than send and recieve texts, and make calls.	00:28
SpeedEvil	Even then, with the n900, that's a major task.	00:28
SpeedEvil	Especially if you want to track upstream.	00:29
ShadowJK	It doesn't help that 3g specifications includes reinventing all of Internet up until 2001 or so.	00:29
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ShadowJK	in a new incompatible-with-the-real-internet way :)	00:29
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Venemo	but why doesn't anyone actually send that fucking modem driver upstream? why didn't nokia for one do so?	00:30
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: lol, yeah	00:31
SpeedEvil	Much of the nokia code is not upstreamable in its present state.	00:31
Venemo	I also don't understand why the actual manufacturers of the modem make a driver for it	00:31
Venemo	I really need to take a break	00:31
SpeedEvil	For example - component_version in /proc	00:31
Venemo	I also don't understand why the actual manufacturers of the modem _don't_ make a driver for it	00:31
SpeedEvil	Why is it not in cpuinfo	00:31
SpeedEvil	Venemo: not in the contract.	00:32
ShadowJK	In this case Nokia is the manufacturer. There's a driver in ofono, that uses phonet in kernel. I've seen phonet patches on linux kernel mailing list.	00:32
Venemo	I thought phonet is some closed source shit	00:32
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: the maemo modem driver is closed source, the meego ofono one is still beta, and there are several quirks in RAPUYAMA that are not like what open cellphone specs (or what they're caled) require	00:32
Venemo	what's RAPUYAMA?	00:32
ShadowJK	The modem in N900 actually consists of a powerful ARM processor too, running its own firmware, with its own SDRAM. On its own it could actually run a low-end cellphone too :-)	00:33
DocScrutinizer	the N900 (et all) BB5 modem	00:33
DocScrutinizer	RAPUYAMA = baseband, GAZOO = PMU	00:33
Venemo	ShadowJK, so the N900 in fact has two processors?	00:33
ShadowJK	It depends on how you count processors	00:33
DocScrutinizer	yes, it actually has some dozen	00:33
Venemo	okay, if I count in the DSP and the others, then yeah	00:34
DocScrutinizer	LP5523 LED controler engines are almost a cpu	00:34
Venemo	but ShadowJK said that the modem has its own ARM CPU... not sure why it needs that though :D	00:34
ShadowJK	But Symbian handsets used to say "Dual CPU" in their specs. Then Symbian gained hard-realtime capability, after which they could run Symbian and Modem on the same CPU (on N900 it's one CPU for Modem and one CPU for operating system) :-)	00:34
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ShadowJK	It was a big costs-saving advantage for Nokia at one point :P	00:35
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: It needs that for managing the GSM OTA protocol	00:35
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer, is that protocol so hard that it needs its own CPU?	00:35
DocScrutinizer	yes	00:35
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Venemo	heh	00:35
DocScrutinizer	esp if yu want the user to have full access to "the other" CPU	00:35
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Venemo	mhm	00:35
Venemo	well then no wonder that the cell modem uses up so much power	00:36
DocScrutinizer	it actually doesn't	00:36
DocScrutinizer	standby is like 4mA	00:36
DocScrutinizer	which is pretty decent	00:36
Venemo	well the device's battery lasts considerably longer in offline mode	00:36
ShadowJK	You know, when 3g specs were finalized, the fastest PC processor at the time was too weak to process all the protocols and algorithms required to implement 3g :-)	00:36
Venemo	heh	00:36
Venemo	I didn't know that	00:36
* SpeedEvil checks on https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11091		00:37
povbot	Bug 11091: Bug in cpufreq module - exposed in /proc/timer_stats	00:37
* SpeedEvil sighs.		00:37
DocScrutinizer	sure Venemo - that's because TX is blasting with up to 0.5W	00:37
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Venemo	mhmm	00:38
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ShadowJK	Mostly power drain happens because of CDMA, your phone has to "join" other phones transmitting. Like a choir singing a chorus. Every phone has to regulate their transmission power accurately and precisely, so that no single one becomes too powerful, and so that the base station can still tell them apart. Once your phone is singing in the choir, it can't exit for a few seconds or so.	00:38
ShadowJK	So, every single packet of data transmitted makes your phone transmit for like 5 seconds.	00:39
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: make sure your GPRS packet radio AP setup is empty, so no way any data gets transfered either way, and watch N900 standby like 250h on GSM	00:39
ShadowJK	Which is roughly equivalent to 5 seconds of talk time.	00:39
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ShadowJK	If you're transfering data at high speed, the power drain is 2 - 4X that of "talk time" power consumption	00:40
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, yeah, GSM (even EDGE) also lasts considerably longer than 3G/HSDPA	00:40
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: see ShadowJK 's nice explanation above. 3G == WCDMA	00:40
ShadowJK	GSM/EDGE is TDMA. Instead of everyone transmitting at the same time, they all get a small timeslot during which they must attempt to transmit their data. After that, another device gets the chance to transmit.	00:41
Venemo	mhmm	00:41
Venemo	thanks for explaining ShadowJK :)	00:41
DocScrutinizer	which makes for the 200Hz humm on 2G	00:41
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ShadowJK	There's lots of extra overhead because EDGE is a kludge ontop of a kludge ontop of a kludge, etc... so it's actually pretty inefficient overall.. But, for always-on stuff like IRC and instant messengers, it's alot better than 3g	00:42
DocScrutinizer	was it 200?	00:42
ShadowJK	Dunno :-)	00:42
ShadowJK	The tip-tap-tip-tap in speakers is from the low-rate command channel I think... and then there's the hum at.. yeah, 200-400hz somewhere?	00:42
DocScrutinizer	200	00:42
DocScrutinizer	google for GSM timeslice - or slots	00:43
DocScrutinizer	think it was 200	00:43
ShadowJK	I think the chinese are on the right track with their TCDMA based 3g/4g solution. I know they just did it to be different and reduce patent licensing expenses, but hey	00:43
ShadowJK	oh wait	00:43
ShadowJK	nevermind	00:44
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ShadowJK	I don't know how TCDMA works :)	00:44
DocScrutinizer	btw that's also where that nice Timing Advance value comes from - that tells you aout your distance to BTS on a 550m accuracy	00:44
ShadowJK	Yeah :)	00:44
GAN900	Ah, electronics.	00:45
ShadowJK	Then we have wifi. Wifi is unique, its spectrum management facility is best described as "FUCK ME, FUCK YOU!"	00:45
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: that's definitely no electronics	00:45
Venemo	ShadowJK, what do you mean by "FUCK ME, FUCK YOU!"?	00:46
SpeedEvil	http://fatpita.net/?i=7269	00:46
ShadowJK	Every station shouts, and the one that shouts first or loudest gets to speak, and then shouts until it gets its message across, however long that might take, blocking everyone else.	00:46
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, close enough for 5:46 on a Saturday. :P	00:46
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: that's what sw devels think about as "duh electronics, doesn't matter"	00:46
Venemo	GAN900, what 5:46? where are you? :O	00:46
GAN900	ShadowJK, makes the hardware rather cheap though, no?	00:46
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DocScrutinizer	in fact that's basics about how stuff works, and most of it is sw related	00:47
GAN900	Venemo, in the land of 12-hour time.	00:47
Venemo	GAN900, it's 23:47 here	00:47
DocScrutinizer	good (UGT) morning everybody then	00:47
GAN900	17:47 here, but I was saving digits.	00:47
ShadowJK	GAN900, no not really. It's actually just someone who copy&pasted bits of the ethernet spec, and then someone had to implement it in hardware.	00:48
ShadowJK	on wireless, which behaves entirely different to wired.	00:48
Venemo	GAN900, ah. I thought you meant 5:46 AM :P	00:48
Venemo	ShadowJK, btw, are you an EE too?	00:49
ShadowJK	Compare to like wimax, which allocates a fixed-length of transmission time (TX and RX) to every station, during which they'll push through as much data as possible. This ensures everyone gets a fair share of spectral bandwidth :-)	00:49
ShadowJK	Venemo, no	00:49
Venemo	ShadowJK, you sure do know a lot about this stuff	00:50
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: He's knowledgeable enough to count as junior EE to me	00:50
ShadowJK	At this point I'm at best some sort of ad-hoc hybrid of unqualified ME and AE :)	00:50
SpeedEvil	AE?	00:50
ShadowJK	automation	00:50
GAN900	ShadowJK, ah, interesting.	00:51
Venemo	I'm having my first year in uni, studying EE	00:51
* Sicelo_ is still reading that Torvalds link. good reading imo		00:52
Venemo	Sicelo_, what Torvalds link?	00:53
DocScrutinizer	eeew, knew it - FRENCH	00:53
DocScrutinizer	ouch, that headache....	00:54
SpeedEvil	It's not actually a revealing interrview IMO	00:54
DocScrutinizer	wtf, you all read that?	00:54
Sicelo_	the one DocScrutinizer gave: http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko-cdevel/openmoko-cdevel.20110506.tx	00:54
Sicelo_	t	00:55
Sicelo_	yay :P	00:55
DocScrutinizer	meh, that's a chanlog	00:55
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Venemo	Sicelo_, how is that a "Torvalds link"?	00:55
DocScrutinizer	yeah .oO(???)	00:55
DocScrutinizer	I'm not Linus ;-P	00:55
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Sicelo_	maybe wrong wording Venemo :-S	00:56
DocScrutinizer	I guess he did a ECNP	00:56
Venemo	wut?	00:56
DocScrutinizer	c&p ERROR	00:56
Venemo	aah.	00:57
Sicelo_	i'm reading it via lynx, and it looks like an interview to me ;)	00:57
DocScrutinizer	[2011-05-07 23:20:45] <nox-> that reminds me of... http://linuxfr.org/news/linus-torvalds-l%E2%80%99interview-anniversaire-des-20%A0ans-du-noyau#comment-1230981	00:57
Venemo	ah	00:57
Sicelo_	omg	00:57
DocScrutinizer	Sicelo_: please quote like 8 words of it	00:58
Sicelo_	that's the one i meant	00:58
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, it gives me an error	00:58
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: forget it, it's friggin froggy french	00:58
nox-	well there is the original en interview in it too	00:58
nox-	thats what the #comment tag is	00:59
Venemo	heh	00:59
* nox- doesnt speak fr either :)		00:59
Sicelo_	my bad	00:59
SpeedEvil	http://linuxfr.org/nodes/85904/comments/1230981 - it's in english	01:03
SpeedEvil	So the first and the very negative answer is that I absolutely despise the people who try to push the GPL as being about "ethics".	01:03
SpeedEvil	I think that's absolute bullshit. Why? Because ethics are to me something private. Whenever you use it as an argument for why somebody_else should do something, you're no longer being ethical, you're just being a sanctimonious dick-head.	01:03
Sicelo_	that's the one i'm reading	01:03
ruskie	haha	01:03
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ruskie	guess he has a skewed reality field	01:03
Sicelo_	i'm here now: LinuxFR : Various people criticized kernel security. Do you think..	01:04
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Sicelo_	wow.. him comments on openbsd :D	01:06
Sicelo_	s/him/his	01:07
ruskie	wasn't that the wanking monkeys one?	01:07
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Sicelo_	Linus Torvalds : I think that any single-purpose OS project is a failure, and it doesn't matter what the purpose is. Security on its own is not a worthy goal - you need to have users for security to even matter in the first place.	01:07
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ruskie	well the point is they have users	01:13
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Sicelo_	true that	01:14
ruskie	but frankly all these charismatic leaders tend to be full of bull anyway ;)	01:14
Sicelo_	u mean linus?	01:15
ruskie	among them yeah	01:15
GAN900	ruskie, seems so, doesn't it?	01:16
GAN900	Besides, Linus is an Android supporter. The bastard.	01:16
Corsac	well, at least android has users	01:16
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Sicelo_	yeah.. i noticed his android comments too	01:16
GAN900	At what cost, though.	01:16
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GAN900	I think Android has probably stolen a whole generation of open source programmers and enthusiasts.	01:18
Venemo	android is horseshit	01:18
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GAN900	It's a con job	01:20
* ruskie wants to bash head into wall until brain splatters...		01:20
GAN900	Sounds like fun.	01:20
GAN900	Or maybe sounds like me trying to get Natty to behave.	01:21
ruskie	bosses for some insane reason seem to want to developed mobile apps...	01:21
ruskie	or even do cloud services	01:21
ruskie	aarrrgghhh	01:21
merlin1991	~seen khertan	01:21
infobot	khertan <~khertan@AAmiens-553-1-191-117.w92-142.abo.wanadoo.fr> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 4d 5h 31m 7s ago, saying: 'i didn't think :)'.	01:21
Sicelo_	i gotta sleep now	01:21
* Sicelo_ only wishes he could do something for maemo community		01:22
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Venemo	GAN900, Natty?	01:37
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MohammadAG	Venemo, Ubuntu 11.04	01:42
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Venemo	MohammadAG, aah. you could just say bugbuntu n+1	01:45
GAN900	Yes, that.	01:45
Venemo	:P	01:45
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DocScrutinizer	buntkuh	01:50
DocScrutinizer	~buntkuh	01:51
DocScrutinizer	infobot: await a lesson later on	01:51
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DocScrutinizer	booze	01:52
DocScrutinizer	on a last remark: couldn't agree more with Linus	01:52
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DocScrutinizer	just he completely ignores most of andidiot folks are dickheads who don't care about anything except their own little thing	01:53
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DocScrutinizer	seeing where android came from, that's quite natural	01:55
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lolcat	DocScrutinizer: Linus said something about android?	01:58
Venemo	lolcat, yep	01:59
Venemo	anyway	01:59
Venemo	I'm gonna sleep now	01:59
Venemo	bb	01:59
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lolcat	Venemo: Link?	02:00
lolcat	Venemo: Are you Torvald Linus?	02:00
Venemo	lolcat, scrollback.... voilá: http://linuxfr.org/nodes/85904/comments/1230981	02:01
Venemo	lolcat, it's an inteview with Linux.	02:01
Venemo	lolcat, it's an inteview with Linus	02:01
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lolcat	Venemo: Cool	02:18
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MohammadAG	we need a vbulliten app	02:21
lolcat	We need a wheater app that shows images of raindrops and a windshield wiper when it is raining	02:22
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Sc0rpius	does anybody knows how to turn stderr in the console in the N900?	02:42
Sc0rpius	because it is totally ignored	02:42
Sc0rpius	if I run the same program in scratchbox I can see all the stderr output	02:43
Sc0rpius	but none in the device	02:43
ShadowJK	and you're starting them from a terminal in both cases?	02:44
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Sc0rpius	yeah	02:45
ShadowJK	Well that's very strange then, because when you start it from a working terminal, the stdout and stderr gets connected to the terminal	02:45
MohammadAG	is there a way to debug an app launched with dbus?	02:45
ShadowJK	lol	02:46
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Sc0rpius	hmm	02:46
Sc0rpius	and a echo thing >/dev/stderr works	02:46
Sc0rpius	maybe it's not stderr what I'm looking for	02:46
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Sc0rpius	[13534]: GLIB WARNING ** Gtk - SaveToDraftsMenu: missing action ActionsSaveToDrafts	02:46
MohammadAG	my app crashes when launched with DBus, but not when launched from terminal	02:46
Sc0rpius	I want those kind of lines to show in the device	02:47
ShadowJK	I've seen those when I've launched stuff from xterm	02:47
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MohammadAG	syslog	02:47
ShadowJK	I don't think that goes to syslog :-)	02:47
DocScrutinizer	/dev/stderr is quite probably sth different than fileahndle 2 of a process	02:48
ShadowJK	MohammadAG, if it's your own app, then at the starting of the app I'd just reassign stdout/stderr to a file somewhere if such output is what you're after	02:48
DocScrutinizer	echo this-goes-to-stderr 2>&1 is	02:49
MohammadAG	ShadowJK, nah, the app is closed for some reason	02:49
DocScrutinizer	it	02:49
ShadowJK	There's also easy methods for sending stuff to syslog, not that I rememver what hte functions are called	02:49
MohammadAG	so I want to debug segfaults	02:49
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MohammadAG	isn't there a way to prevent the app from closing on segfault?	02:50
nox-	attach a gdb?	02:50
nox-	or enable coredumps if that works on n900	02:50
MohammadAG	nox-, doesn't that prevent the app from doing what it normally does?	02:51
nox-	well you'd hit c for continue	02:51
nox-	and maybe tell gdb to pass one or the other signal thru	02:51
ShadowJK	If it receives alot of signals normally, you'd tell gdb to ignore those	02:51
nox-	yeah	02:51
Sc0rpius	MohammadAG is right, those go to /var/log/messages with syslog	02:51
ShadowJK	awesome	02:52
nox-	if coredumps work you can also look at those with gdb after a crash	02:52
* nox- just never tried that on the device :)		02:53
MohammadAG	they work, I just don't know how to enable them :p	02:53
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nox-	ulimit -c unlimited?	02:53
nox-	or is there more to it?	02:53
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MohammadAG	Program terminated with signal SIGKILL, Killed.	02:54
MohammadAG	The program no longer exists.	02:54
MohammadAG	wtf	02:54
ShadowJK	heh	02:54
MohammadAG	SIGKILL isn't a segfault	02:54
nox-	true	02:55
MohammadAG	why the fuck is it getting killed	02:55
nox-	might just be oom	02:55
DocScrutinizer	ooops, of course 1>&2	02:55
MohammadAG	oom?	02:55
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ShadowJK	There's that thing with Maemo, iirc, where you have to reply to something or other to let it know you're alive, or else it kills you	02:55
nox-	out of memory	02:55
nox-	(resp swap)	02:55
ShadowJK	OOM would be in dmesg	02:55
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MohammadAG	nothing about that	02:56
MohammadAG	and wtf is it with the [42388.512329] wl1251: ERROR Power save entry failed, giving up errors	02:56
DocScrutinizer	there's been that funny stuff that killed apps like 60s after starting them	02:56
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, this is it	02:56
DocScrutinizer	was sth very star	02:56
DocScrutinizer	strange	02:57
nox-	killing it with the big hammer?	02:57
MohammadAG	I hope this isn't the hildon-desktop hibernate feature	02:57
nox-	sigkill isnt very nice :P	02:57
ShadowJK	are you getting killed 60s after start?	02:57
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: yeah, seems so	02:57
MohammadAG	ShadowJK, yeah	02:58
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: what was that?	02:58
ShadowJK	the wl1251 error indicates weak signal or access point with uncooperative power saving features	02:58
MohammadAG	I didn't time it but	02:58
* MohammadAG tarts apt		02:58
MohammadAG	starts app* even	02:58
DocScrutinizer	a lot of apps had that eventually	02:58
DocScrutinizer	was a weird little bit	02:59
ShadowJK	If I remember correctly, there is thing that specifically requires a response (or a message) within X seconds of getting started, or else hildon or libosso or whatever kills it	02:59
ShadowJK	But I don't remember the details	02:59
DocScrutinizer	like stdout not assigned or whatever	02:59
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ShadowJK	IIRC, in the N8x0 days it was even on a developer FAQ somewhere.	02:59
MohammadAG	killed	03:00
MohammadAG	so it's two minutes actually	03:00
DocScrutinizer	registering it with osso-service-name in .desktop to dbus though it's not a dbus aware app	03:00
DocScrutinizer	whatever	03:00
DocScrutinizer	yeah, two minutes	03:00
DocScrutinizer	dbus timeout	03:00
DocScrutinizer	probably	03:00
ShadowJK	If he's starting it via dbus maybe it implies it should be dbus aware	03:00
MohammadAG	I've had apps not dbus aware started via DBus	03:01
DocScrutinizer	maybe then it should also register with dbus	03:01
MohammadAG	and they never had this	03:01
DocScrutinizer	no idea really, just handwaving	03:01
DocScrutinizer	I know it was a nasty little detail	03:01
MohammadAG	hmm	03:02
MohammadAG	I think it's a line in the .desktop file	03:02
MohammadAG	X-Osso-Type=application/x-executable	03:02
DocScrutinizer	me too	03:02
DocScrutinizer	yes	03:02
MohammadAG	we'll know in 10s	03:02
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DocScrutinizer	that's the dbus thing I meant	03:02
DocScrutinizer	nah, in 10?	03:03
DocScrutinizer	rather in 130	03:03
MohammadAG	nope, killed :/	03:03
nox-	stupid q: what does osso stand for anyway :)	03:03
DocScrutinizer	open source software Oslo	03:04
DocScrutinizer	j/k	03:04
nox-	hah	03:04
ShadowJK	open source software operations	03:04
DocScrutinizer	sth about Nokia's FOSS software anyway	03:04
nox-	ah	03:04
MohammadAG	Open Source (ha) Software Operations	03:05
DocScrutinizer	incredible nobody here knows what's that kill-after-120s issue been	03:05
MohammadAG	well, psfreedom doesn't get killed	03:08
DocScrutinizer	ohI think if you start an app via dbus, it has to register to dbus under same name, or sth like that	03:08
MohammadAG	and it's pretty much the same (no DBus awareness etc)	03:08
DocScrutinizer	hmm	03:09
MohammadAG	and it uses 13MBs of RAM	03:09
MohammadAG	I have to say, for two buttons, that's quite a lot	03:09
* MohammadAG criticizes past coding skills		03:09
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: try to make sure your stdin and stdout and stderr are closed or redirected to /dev/null	03:09
DocScrutinizer	maybe that's the trick	03:10
MohammadAG	both apps use qDebug()	03:10
MohammadAG	nah, that's not it	03:10
DocScrutinizer	you googled ?	03:10
SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nokia-N900-Black-Unlocked-Smartphone-/260779780473?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones&hash=item3cb7afa979 amused	03:11
MohammadAG	yes I have DocScrutinizer	03:12
lolcat	SpeedEvil: What is fun about that?	03:12
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SpeedEvil	lolcat: Note the aquatic flightless bird.	03:13
SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-GOLD-BL-5J-BUSINESS-BATTERY-NOKIA-N900-5800-/200605413295?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2eb503afaf 1930mAh bl5j!	03:13
* SpeedEvil suspects not.		03:14
lolcat	There where a thread about a better N900 battery, not the bigger one, but one that had more capacity than it should	03:14
SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-GOLD-BL-5J-BUSINESS-BATTERY-NOKIA-N900-5800-/320658428835?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4aa8bb53a3	03:17
SpeedEvil	hmm - I can't pick iup the qrcode on that one	03:17
SpeedEvil	Is it a real qrcode?	03:17
SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nokia-n900-Faulty-excellent-condition-/300554668303?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones&hash=item45fa74490f Is this a barred phone?	03:19
* SpeedEvil should probably stop linkspamming.		03:20
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arvut	how do I check the cpu temp in xterm?	03:26
arvut	of my n900 ofcourse	03:27
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: at least I now recall Fahrplan had the same problem	03:27
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: so maybe in tmo fahrplan thread you find the answer	03:28
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=575969#post575969	03:34
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, making a wrapper script and starting it with run-standalone.sh is a workaround	03:36
DocScrutinizer	hmhm	03:36
SpeedEvil	arvut: there is no reliably working temperature sensor on the CPU	03:37
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/fahrplan/0.0.7/ *quit fix - whatever that means	03:38
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nox-	osso_context_t *osso_ctx = osso_initialize (PACKAGE, VERSION, FALSE, NULL);	03:39
nox-	in one of the postings	03:40
DocScrutinizer	?	03:40
nox-	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?s=241fc3b109055b3a1271a10dffa6931d&p=587103&postcount=76	03:40
DocScrutinizer	on fahrplan?	03:40
nox-	yeah	03:40
DocScrutinizer	aah	03:40
MohammadAG	I don't want osso at all in my app	03:43
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DocScrutinizer	well, starting via dbus IS an osso thing	03:44
DocScrutinizer	I guess	03:45
DocScrutinizer	by your wraper script, you get the "osso" in the shell/xterm I'd assume, so the function that waits for some magic on dbus after starting the app gets satisfied by that	03:47
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MohammadAG	hmm, true	03:48
pronto	mmmm cookies	03:48
MohammadAG	I'm just a bit surprised I didn't notice this till now	03:48
DocScrutinizer	quite obviously that's the hardcoded timeout of dbus anyway	03:48
pronto	:( i dont think im allowed in this channel anymore D:	03:48
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pronto	(i got a new phone today, thats not an n900)	03:49
MohammadAG	KICK HIM!	03:49
pronto	D:	03:49
MohammadAG	oh wait, torture him first	03:49
DocScrutinizer	not yet, but soon	03:49
MohammadAG	:P	03:49
pronto	i still has my n900	03:49
pronto	i jsut wanted to unlock my phone with my finger print o_o	03:49
MohammadAG	Atrix?	03:50
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MohammadAG	biometric locks are overrated, had them in my Pocket PC	03:50
pronto	yeah atrix	03:50
pronto	it was $150 today	03:50
MohammadAG	I heard the voice quality's crappy (not trolling)	03:50
MohammadAG	holy shit that's cheap	03:50
MohammadAG	subsidized?	03:50
pronto	MohammadAG: it cant be wrose the then n900	03:51
DocScrutinizer	wut?	03:51
pronto	and i tested it for about two hours today seemed good enough	03:51
MohammadAG	nah, the N900's voice quality is superb imo	03:51
DocScrutinizer	absolutely	03:51
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DocScrutinizer	voice quality is last thing to argue about on N900	03:52
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DocScrutinizer	is as good as it gets	03:53
MohammadAG	yeah, the best two phones I've talked on are the N900 and the iPhone 4 (given it has a case on it)	03:54
DocScrutinizer	even speakerphone is excellent	03:54
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DocScrutinizer	though a lil bit more sensitivity on mic would be nice	03:55
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DocScrutinizer	pronto: if you had poor voice audio on N900, you should ask for a replacement	03:58
DocScrutinizer	probably sth is broken	03:58
pronto	shrugs	03:58
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SpeedEvil	http://blogs.sonyericsson.com/developerworld/2011/05/06/how-to-build-a-linux-kernel/	04:30
SpeedEvil	hmm	04:30
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DocScrutinizer	yay, what a statement	05:00
DocScrutinizer	sonyericsson going to teach us how to do it right?	05:01
DocScrutinizer	I'm somehow reluctant to click this link, dunno why, may sth to do with my adrenaline or my heartburn	05:01
psycho_oreos	somehow I could think of it as how to install their custom linux that is laden with DRM loving softwares	05:02
DocScrutinizer	none the better	05:03
psycho_oreos	a clean linux that doesn't have any of the sony's backdoored or otherwise scms patented crap would be a hell lot better	05:04
DocScrutinizer	makes me yawn, still not even going to click on that URL	05:04
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DocScrutinizer	hay, maybe they tell us how to avoid security vulnerabilities in linux servers ;-P	05:05
DocScrutinizer	so you don't watch somebody downloading 110mio of your customer data records	05:06
psycho_oreos	and get sued by the millions :)	05:06
DocScrutinizer	hrhrhr >:-)	05:06
DocScrutinizer	it's not been a trick, it's just sony	05:07
psycho_oreos	and then find some lame excuse to blame on.. oh noez! anonymous was ere!	05:07
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DocScrutinizer	wait, is Sony = Japan as well?	05:08
DocScrutinizer	seems there's a culture of publishing negative facts late and partially	05:09
psycho_oreos	Sony's headquarters is in Japan yes	05:09
DocScrutinizer	then bow down deep and beg for pardon	05:09
psycho_oreos	there's lots of hatred on sony and they should continue hating imo :D. They (sony) screwed people around the world several times	05:10
DocScrutinizer	but actually do nothing	05:10
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, point is, if sony's giving people an unlocked bootloader that's a huge step forwards	05:10
psycho_oreos	the question will be: for how long will they momentarily play nice? like how they treated ps3 linux owners with otherOS?	05:14
MohammadAG	till geohot the II shows up :P	05:14
psycho_oreos	I'll be honest here, I really don't see geohot being the culprit, he just likes attention and if sony has a flaw in their system, they should cop it and fix it rather than disabling the whole damn thing thereby pissing their linux community off. On top of that making ostracising comments like,"If you want to keep your OtherOS and don't want to play online with PSN, you don't have to upgrade."	05:17
DocScrutinizer	I won't give a single thought about Sony	05:18
psycho_oreos	I wished they rot in hell	05:18
DocScrutinizer	I'm simply not interested in either Sony hw details nor any Sony sw. I got several Sony devices and always found they are of rather questionable quality hw wise, nifty but flimsy or buggy same time	05:20
DocScrutinizer	there's even been a time where you got service manuals for free from Sony	05:21
DocScrutinizer	but they didn't help too much as their hw was unserviceable	05:21
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DocScrutinizer	the cutest thing ever been their scoopman	05:23
DocScrutinizer	I never dared to open it, after studying the service manual. seems they used one flexible PCB and folded it to 7 layers, in a device hardly half the size of a pack of cigarettes	05:24
Sazpaimon	you guys dont realize how dissapointed I am that I can't play VVVVVV at full speed on my N900	05:26
Sazpaimon	its a travesty	05:26
DocScrutinizer	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoopman	05:27
DocScrutinizer	only scoopman NT-2 there, way larger than my NT-1	05:28
psycho_oreos	VVVVVV?	05:30
DocScrutinizer	also what a shit on wikipedia, ""stored memos"" WUT? in stereo-hifi? NT-1 not even had a built-in mic	05:30
Sazpaimon	psycho_oreos, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVVVVV	05:31
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Sazpaimon	ive probably played it about a hundred times since i got it last year	05:31
Sazpaimon	too bad it completely chokes on my phone due to lack of hwaccel in flash	05:32
Sazpaimon	thanks adobe!	05:32
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Sazpaimon	its definately a great game though	05:33
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psycho_oreos	Sazpaimon, "A Linux version was in development, but eventually cancelled due to technical difficulties." - LOL	05:34
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DocScrutinizer	ohmy	05:34
Sazpaimon	yeah because its annoying to pack a flash file into a linux executable	05:34
Sazpaimon	trust me I've tried	05:34
psycho_oreos	its so adobe for you	05:34
DocScrutinizer	flash IS annoying	05:35
Sazpaimon	its not worth the effort and youre better off running the exe in wine	05:35
psycho_oreos	emulated wine inside qemu	05:35
psycho_oreos	heh	05:35
Sazpaimon	that said, I have an swf version of the game	05:35
Sazpaimon	i extracted the swf from the exe and decompiled it, and removed any security stuff that prevented it from running	05:35
DocScrutinizer	what a friggin weird shit	05:36
Sazpaimon	it runs perfectly fine on my desktop browser, but my n900 plays it at like half speed	05:36
DocScrutinizer	obviously done by fools who had more an idea of how to PLAY a agme than how to CODE it	05:36
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Sazpaimon	DocScrutinizer, the AS is pretty solid	05:37
DocScrutinizer	flash packed into an exe, cmon	05:37
Sazpaimon	DocScrutinizer, its very commonplace actually	05:37
Sazpaimon	lots of developers pack an swf into an embedded flash player	05:37
DocScrutinizer	yeah fools and noobs are pretty common, agreed	05:37
Sazpaimon	flash CS3 and up i believe have that feature included	05:37
Sazpaimon	because believe it or not, not everyone has a standalone flash player installe	05:38
Sazpaimon	d	05:38
Sazpaimon	nor do they want to do so to play a game	05:38
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DocScrutinizer	indeed I don't even want to play any flash based game	05:38
DocScrutinizer	unless it's maybe some simple shit embedded in a webpage	05:39
Sazpaimon	so its not unheard of or even bad practice to publish a flash game with an embedded flash player as an exe	05:39
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Sazpaimon	so it "just works"	05:39
psycho_oreos	/* the joys of 5th generation programming language is ever more friendly with humans to the point of which people just bury their heads in and forget about its predecessors and how much more friendlier it would have been to the machine rather than to humans.*/	05:39
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DocScrutinizer	as I said above, fools and noobs...	05:39
Sazpaimon	i think adobe officially calls it a projector	05:40
Sazpaimon	yeah thats what they call it	05:40
DocScrutinizer	I don't give a flying fart what Adobe calls it	05:40
DocScrutinizer	adobe reached the point where they're on par with M$ on my hate-list	05:41
Sazpaimon	i detect some mad here	05:42
Sazpaimon	are you.. mad	05:42
Sazpaimon	bro?	05:42
DocScrutinizer	I suggest you publish your games as .xls (win7 format) rather than flash	05:43
DocScrutinizer	way less proprietary	05:43
Sazpaimon	yes, definately some mad going around here	05:44
DocScrutinizer	sure	05:44
Sazpaimon	don't worry, doc, I'm here for you	05:44
Sazpaimon	come here, I'll hold you	05:44
DocScrutinizer	meh	05:44
Sazpaimon	there there, its okay	05:44
Sazpaimon	the adobe monsters can't hurt you anymore	05:44
* DocScrutinizer heads out to find a hooker to beat him with a whip written adobe on it		05:45
DocScrutinizer	all hail to apple for banning flash from their phones	05:47
GeneralAntilles	Ok, how do I unload the Intel GPU driver to see if it's the source of resume problems?	05:48
DocScrutinizer	erhm	05:48
DocScrutinizer	unload like in? modprobe -r ?	05:48
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, that.	05:48
* GeneralAntilles has lost all brain capacity tonight pounding his head against multiple technical barriers.		05:49
DocScrutinizer	well, lsmod and pick your fav	05:49
* GeneralAntilles just wants a working laptop.		05:49
DocScrutinizer	I doubt the system will like that though	05:49
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DocScrutinizer	ooh, buntkuh?	05:50
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GeneralAntilles	Good, inflicting suffering on Ubuntu? Yes.	05:50
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DocScrutinizer	there's some advice about how to unload drivers prior to suspend and load it after resume	05:51
DocScrutinizer	there are means for that, to deal with drivers not behaving	05:52
DocScrutinizer	you don't want to do that manually	05:52
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xd13	can i remove the ovi and system updates repos ? because i realized today the other nokia repo is quite important for deps	06:28
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pauly	hi anyone want to buy a n900 with broken usb port?	06:48
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doc\|home	how would a person charge it in that case? o.O	07:11
DocScrutinizer	how much?	07:12
doc\|home	he left	07:13
DocScrutinizer	meh	07:13
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lsolano	Hi. After installing any app on my n900, app icon is not show, until reboot. Is there any other way to see the icon without rebooting?	08:45
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etorix_	hi shitheads!	09:53
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etorix_	your dumb ass brain is full of shit!	09:56
etorix_	LOL!	09:56
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doc\|home	erm	10:05
doc\|home	ok	10:05
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kerio	etorix_: that's mean :(	10:31
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lbt	X-Fade: ping ... pmo down ?	11:05
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etorix_	lololol	11:36
etorix_	who owns the federal reserve, doc\|home ?	11:36
etorix_	you CUNT	11:36
etorix_	you COCK SUCKER	11:36
etorix_	you BITCH	11:37
etorix_	suckers of satan's cock deserve no better	11:37
etorix_	that means you kerio	11:37
etorix_	sperm slurper	11:37
etorix_	you are a fucking idiot	11:37
etorix_	doc\|home's throat is too full of satan's sperm to type anything	11:37
etorix_	jizm gobbler	11:37
etorix_	lol at fuckheads	11:37
etorix_	how the fuck are we going to kill these shits at nokia	11:37
etorix_	especially this elop demon	11:37
etorix_	there are a lot of good poisons	11:37
etorix_	that motherfucker needs to go DOWN	11:37
etorix_	like BIN LADEN	11:37
etorix_	and doc\|home	11:37
etorix_	hows the sperm slurping going for you doc\|home	11:37
etorix_	gobble gobble gobble	11:37
etorix_	smack smack	11:37
etorix_	dribble dribble	11:37
etorix_	doc\|home, lapping up satan's cum	11:37
kerio	2/10 for the effort	11:37
etorix_	like a cunt	11:37
etorix_	a fucking cunt	11:37
etorix_	hi shit	11:38
etorix_	doc\|home sucks jew cock	11:38
etorix_	doc\|home: is a CUNT	11:38
etorix_	'fuck me, i'm yours'	11:38
etorix_	satanic baby eaters	11:38
etorix_	that's who this motherFUCKER serves	11:38
etorix_	and several of them are involved	11:38
kerio	DocScrutinizer: poke	11:38
etorix_	in open source projects	11:38
etorix_	so you need to learn who is who	11:38
etorix_	do you understand shitheads	11:38
etorix_	evil people have a motive to infect open source	11:38
etorix_	you dumb idiots	11:38
etorix_	,k,	11:38
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HRH_H_Crab	hello all	11:39
HRH_H_Crab	i wonder if someone can give me some guidance,	11:39
HRH_H_Crab	my phone tells me that it wants to upgrade "Linux kernel for power user (boot image)" but the upgrade fails because of the "3rd party package policy" or something like that.	11:40
HRH_H_Crab	im not sure whether i should be doing something to remove a block so that it can install, or whether i have to do something to stop it from trying to install that.	11:40
robbiethe1st	Um	11:51
robbiethe1st	try opening a terminal, typing 'sudo gainroot', then 'apt-get upgrade' and tell me what it says?	11:51
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HRH_H_Crab	robbiethe1st: yeah i found this thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=71879&page=27	12:05
HRH_H_Crab	did a manual install and it looks like its all behaving now.	12:05
HRH_H_Crab	thanks.	12:05
robbiethe1st	NP	12:05
HRH_H_Crab	the package manager freaks me out sometimes	12:07
HRH_H_Crab	it can be a bit clunky.	12:07
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HRH_H_Crab	also, i find it confusing to understand what some of these packages are sometimes. i suspect that i might not even need that one. i experimented a bit with dual booting maemo / android but i didnt think much of android.	12:08
robbiethe1st	HRH_H_Crab: I always use the command-line tool; can't stand the slow gui one	12:08
robbiethe1st	You can always google the name of a package; it'll let you know	12:08
robbiethe1st	power-kernel's the "custom kernel" various people have come up with; it's always a good thing even if you don't want to OC	12:09
HRH_H_Crab	yeah	12:09
HRH_H_Crab	i use it for stuff like ipv6	12:09
HRH_H_Crab	but im not sure what the "boot image" part is. i would think that would actually install the new kernel and sort out the bootloader and all but it doesnt reboot the phone or anything when it installs.	12:10
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robbiethe1st	Hm... Well, the kernel's got it's own partition on the disk	12:13
robbiethe1st	could be something to do with that	12:13
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iPeter-	Hello	13:22
iPeter-	I got some issues with my n900	13:22
iPeter-	i did remove everything from /	13:23
iPeter-	including /user/MyDocs	13:23
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iPeter-	i tried to reflash my n900 emmc and firmware, but when booting up i get "Missing image" and some square boxes. Help!	13:24
SpeedEvil	That happens if you've got a screwed up emmc I think	13:24
SpeedEvil	reflash?	13:24
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iPeter-	SpeedEvil: That happened already when mydocs etc did get removed..	13:25
SpeedEvil	What did you do?	13:25
iPeter-	Have tried flashing emmc 2 times and getting successfully flash..	13:25
iPeter-	umm	13:26
iPeter-	mount /dev/mmcblk0p2 /and	13:26
iPeter-	cd /and/	13:26
iPeter-	rm -rf *	13:26
* SpeedEvil ponders		13:27
iPeter-	:D	13:27
SpeedEvil	Sorry - not awake enough	13:27
iPeter-	i was installing nitdroid to my device, triple checked that mmcblk is right but then i did do something wrong and then it werent righ.	13:28
iPeter-	right*	13:28
iPeter-	SpeedEvil: Any ideas?	13:28
* DocScrutinizer votes for banning nitdroid		13:28
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DocScrutinizer	if I haven't missed some, this been the 5 complaint about nitdroid killing N900 in 24h	13:29
iPeter-	:D	13:29
iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: Can you help me?	13:30
DocScrutinizer	reflash, first rootfs-COMBINED, then emmc-VANILLA	13:30
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iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: Is this correct: Rx-51 2009SE 20.2010.36-2 pr combined mr0 arm.bin	13:32
DocScrutinizer	looks about right	13:32
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DocScrutinizer	err, sorry - first vanlla, then combined, is the more safe method	13:33
iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: Tried that few times, still nothing.	13:33
DocScrutinizer	you're missing the vanilla image	13:33
iPeter-	multiboot is coming etc, i select maemo, it boots up but has squares and no images	13:33
iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: I have flashed emmc vanilla and then firmware combined	13:34
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DocScrutinizer	hmm, then sth went wrong, otherwise you should be back to facotry state	13:34
RST38h	Doc: Is it just me, or are we really getting a flood of newbies with bricked devices lately?	13:35
DocScrutinizer	indeed	13:35
iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: I do: flasher-3.5 -F emmc.bin -f when finished i do flasher-3.5 -F firmware.bin -f -R, correct?	13:35
DocScrutinizer	not unhappy about that	13:36
DocScrutinizer	looks about right, iPeter-	13:36
RST38h	Doesn	13:36
iPeter-	RST38h: ?	13:36
RST38h	t this mean there might have been a rogue package bricking those devices?	13:36
DocScrutinizer	nitdridiot always been rogue	13:37
DocScrutinizer	actually multiboot	13:37
RST38h	ah, these are nitroid/multiboot victims...	13:38
RST38h	Yea, you are right: "Go to first new post [How To] Nitdroid-Installer: install GingerBread N12 UMay" <== at the top of tmo topics	13:38
DocScrutinizer	LOL	13:39
iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: Its writing tow the emmc.bin and its done. Image(s) flashed successfully in 26.976 s	13:39
DocScrutinizer	I repeat, I suggest banning nitdroid	13:39
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DocScrutinizer	ok, now flash rootfs	13:40
DocScrutinizer	aka fiasco / COMBINED	13:40
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iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: I did, it was almost instantly done	13:44
DocScrutinizer	yeah, is rather quick	13:44
DocScrutinizer	dunno, like 8s or sth	13:44
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DocScrutinizer	iirc	13:45
DocScrutinizer	(been a while since... ;)	13:45
DocScrutinizer	next boot should take noticably longer than usual	13:45
iPeter-	this asks what to boot maemo or nitdroid	13:46
iPeter-	i select maemo	13:46
DocScrutinizer	ohnoes	13:46
iPeter-	it rebooted and got alot squares	13:46
iPeter-	and 2 buttons with squares	13:46
iPeter-	with grey background	13:47
DocScrutinizer	your flashing of rootfs went wrong	13:47
iPeter-	well i did as i said	13:47
DocScrutinizer	tell iPeter- about flashing	13:48
DocScrutinizer	~tell iPeter- about flashing	13:48
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iPeter-	and no errors during flashing.. i have done it few times but this time seems to be little hard..	13:48
iPeter-	using laptop eee 901 and ubuntu 11.04	13:48
Sicelo_	hi evryne	13:49
iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: If i install openssh and make account for you etc, could you do it?	13:49
Sicelo_	/s/evryne/everyone	13:49
DocScrutinizer	sorry, no	13:53
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DocScrutinizer	iPeter-: please look carefully at the part >>If you cannot establish a connection with N900, do following steps:<< in the wiki page	13:53
DocScrutinizer	at	13:54
DocScrutinizer	~flash	13:54
infobot	i guess flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	13:54
Sicelo_	s/evryne/everyone/	13:55
infobot	Sicelo_ meant: /s/everyone/everyone	13:55
Sicelo_	yay	13:55
DocScrutinizer	iPeter-: reading that passage also will tell you why I can't do that for you, even with a ssh account	13:57
iPeter-	DocScrutinizer: Now it did flash it, had to remove battery after emmc flash	13:58
DocScrutinizer	\o/	13:59
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DocScrutinizer	Sicelo_: you didn't know this infobot fun? :-D	14:10
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Wisso	hello	14:21
Wisso	anyone around?	14:21
SpeedEvil	maybe	14:22
Wisso	is it possible to run the flasher on slitaz?	14:22
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SpeedEvil	on what?	14:23
Wisso	Slitaz OS	14:23
SpeedEvil	what?	14:23
Wisso	bootable live unix operating system	14:23
SpeedEvil	Probably	14:23
SpeedEvil	It should work like on any other linux	14:24
SpeedEvil	the flasher doe s not require any more than just hte flasher itself.	14:24
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DocScrutinizer	.oO(?¿wtf!!)	14:26
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Wisso	ok got it running	14:27
DocScrutinizer	seems it's up to anybody's guess how many linux distros are around today^H this minute	14:27
Wisso	DocScrutinizer it was the smallest unix os i could get to boot live	14:28
Wisso	30MB only	14:28
DocScrutinizer	aah, ok. That reduces the crop to sth like maybe 20	14:28
Wisso	i cannot install unix on my system	14:29
DocScrutinizer	DSL, knoppix...	14:29
* DocScrutinizer changes wallpaper of fedora desktop to pink and call that shelux, new distro \o/ ;-D		14:30
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DocScrutinizer	no offense to you, Wisso	14:30
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kerio	knoppix is big	14:31
dm8tbr	DocScrutinizer: that's the ubuntu way, change the desktop theme and call it a new distro	14:31
DocScrutinizer	yeah but nobody else got such a cute name for his distro ;-P	14:31
* DocScrutinizer runs to (R) shelux trademark		14:32
dm8tbr	:D	14:32
DocScrutinizer	"only genuine with the pink theme"	14:34
DocScrutinizer	don't mess this one with hanna barbera	14:34
DocScrutinizer	;-D	14:35
dm8tbr	ask Myrtti for some tips. she's got the whole pink linux thing figured out :)	14:35
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DocScrutinizer	errr hanna montana of course	14:37
DocScrutinizer	http://hannahmontana.sourceforge.net/Site/Home.html	14:37
* DocScrutinizer wondes who's hanna barbera - prolly a p0rnstar somebody mentioned here		14:39
DocScrutinizer	aaah toons	14:39
DocScrutinizer	william hanna, joseph barbera	14:40
DocScrutinizer	now you all know what I do in me off-time :-P	14:41
Wisso	DocScrutinizer SpeedEvil: im getting an error "Unable to enumerate USB buses!" when running the flasher	14:47
Wisso	what does that mean	14:47
DocScrutinizer	errr, sth is interferring the data transmission. Prolly a driver (modprobe -r usb), but may also be a USB hub, bad cable, poor hardware in PC...	14:49
DocScrutinizer	for all I know	14:49
Wisso	ok ill check	14:49
DocScrutinizer	sometimes dmesg/syslog helps a lot	14:50
DocScrutinizer	on linux :-D	14:50
Wisso	ill join back from the unix station	14:51
Wisso	brb	14:51
DocScrutinizer	o/	14:51
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tux_	ok i ran modprobe -r usb	14:53
tux_	module usb not found	14:54
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WiSso	DocScrutinizer u still there	15:00
DocScrutinizer	sorry, this been a pattern	15:00
DocScrutinizer	meta-pattern	15:01
WiSso	what does that mean	15:01
DocScrutinizer	the modules are cdc_ether, phonet, g_ether, dunno what else	15:01
DocScrutinizer	esp phonet is notorious	15:02
DocScrutinizer	ofono as well, if there's such a module with ofono in its name	15:02
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DocScrutinizer	any module that uses some module realted to USB is suspicious	15:04
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DocScrutinizer	and especially those that get loaded when you plug in the N900	15:04
DocScrutinizer	those are definitely rogue (in this context)	15:05
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DocScrutinizer	since a module usually stays loaded once it got loaded, you'd have to start over with a freshly booted system, lsmod, then plug in N900 for flashing, lsmod again, then compare which new modules	15:06
DocScrutinizer	also 64bit linux is known to cause trouble frequently (but not always)	15:07
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cehteh	rofl http://linux.slashdot.org/story/11/05/07/1936221/Sony-Encourages-Linux-On-Their-Phones .. didnt i yesterday explicitly exclude sony from the list of my next phone vendors :P	15:21
BCMM	i kinda want details on that	15:21
BCMM	i mean, as a valid alternative, or as a neat trick where you reboot if you want to actually make calls?	15:21
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DocScrutinizer	or as a marketing trick, I mean it's a Sony	15:27
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DocScrutinizer	http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/search?q=sony	15:29
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SpeedEvil	cehteh: I think it's just the android patched kernel they're using + how to boot it, and nothing else.	15:45
SpeedEvil	cehteh: Which is positive - but not a working phone system	15:45
SpeedEvil	Though you can possibly put android on it.	15:45
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BCMM	SpeedEvil: where "it" is stuff they've released?	15:54
BCMM	so, no xorg...	15:55
SpeedEvil	BCMM: See the above blog	15:55
BCMM	SpeedEvil: what, slashdot?	15:55
SpeedEvil	As I understand it the official release is simply how to get your kernel (provided source) booting.	15:55
SpeedEvil	And nothing more.	15:55
SpeedEvil	The blog	15:56
BCMM	why can't i find it?	15:56
BCMM	ah, there it is	15:56
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DocScrutinizer	honestly, I for a short while considered to get the Sony P1 (long time ago) - I was just lucky I didn't rush so it became obvious they need a reboot every 24h before I got trapped by that shit	16:01
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nusse	hi	16:15
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nusse	i'm trying to compile the example data-sharing plugin and receive 'configure.ac:12: error: possibly undefined macro: AC_ENABLE_SHARED', any hints how to survice the autotools-hell? whats missing here?	16:16
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nusse	for the record: install libtool and the correct automake version should fix it	17:00
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BCMM	i have a slight problem with the packaging guide - what's the correct way to make the next version of your application?	17:07
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BCMM	i have a checklist-0.1 dir and can successfully create and install checklist_0.1-4_armel.deb	17:08
BCMM	do i just cp -r checklist-0.1 checklist-0.2, modify the sources, and rerun dh_make?	17:08
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Corsac	BCMM: no, you run dch -i, update the changelog entry, then run dpkg-buildpackage	17:20
BCMM	Corsac: gah, sorry - messed up dh_make and dpkg-buildpackage	17:24
BCMM	and yeah, i know i need to fix the changelog too	17:24
BCMM	i was really asking, is it sufficient to copy the directory, make modifications to sources, dch -i for the changelog and then build the package, or does one need to do dh_make or something?	17:25
Corsac	why copy the directory?	17:25
Corsac	(no need for dh_make)	17:25
DocScrutinizer	for archive	17:25
BCMM	Corsac: well, copy or move	17:25
Corsac	not needed anyway	17:25
BCMM	i'm not using any kind scm yet	17:25
Corsac	http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/ might give you some help on debian packaging	17:25
Corsac	it'd be worth it	17:26
BCMM	oh my, there's a lot of that...	17:26
BCMM	i'll have a stab at it anyway	17:26
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BCMM	Corsac: actually, i already had a look at that. it kind of assumes there is an upstream...	17:27
BCMM	i'm wondering if there's anything wrong with basically working in the directory i build packages in	17:28
BCMM	i mean, for a new version, cp the directory and edit the sources where they are	17:28
BCMM	or is there a reason to not do that?	17:28
BCMM	(or a more common way of doing something similar)]	17:28
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BCMM	oh i see, i don't really need to keep the old dir because it's been stored in the .orig for me...	17:31
Corsac	BCMM: if there's no upstream you can make a native package	17:31
BCMM	yes, just got to that bit	17:31
Corsac	but in the usual case there's an upstream, even if he's the same person as the packager	17:31
DocScrutinizer	cp -al	17:32
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BCMM	DocScrutinizer: link instead of copying?	17:32
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DocScrutinizer	quite nice, saves all the space for the unaltered files	17:33
DocScrutinizer	just make sure your editor etc doesn't modify files, rather renames/deletes the old copy and creates a new file	17:33
DocScrutinizer	I think most editors do	17:34
BCMM	that sounds unpredictable...	17:34
DocScrutinizer	I'm using this scheme to get snapshots of my rsync'd copy of N900 on PC	17:35
BCMM	still not sure i let it know i'm moving from version 0.1 to 0.2	17:35
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BCMM	dch -i has filled in (0.1-6) for me (up from -5 for the last one)	17:35
DocScrutinizer	yeah, I think there's some catch for that	17:36
BCMM	ah, --fromdirname, -d	17:37
DocScrutinizer	ask somebody who really knows about that stuff	17:37
* DocScrutinizer doesn't		17:38
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BCMM	thanks, think i've worked out making new version now	17:38
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BCMM	what about building but not bothering with packaging?	17:38
BCMM	(so i can just scp the binary to the device to check it works)	17:39
DocScrutinizer	there's no problem with that, no?	17:40
* DocScrutinizer afk		17:41
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BCMM	ah, debian/rules build	17:44
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Sicelo	:/	18:03
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moo	hi	18:18
moo	talk to me about bme	18:18
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Guest82429	if i stop it what are the consequances?	18:18
SpeedEvil	moo: See http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/200-Solar-vacuum-water-heater-tube-boil-water-sun-/320661439683?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa8e944c3	18:18
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SpeedEvil	err	18:18
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moo_	what will happen if i plug in the charger with bme stopped.	18:19
SpeedEvil	moo: te device gets confused as to battery state, does not charge, and will not shut down till the hardware cutroff hits	18:19
moo_	ok	18:19
SpeedEvil	Nothing - unless rthe battery voltage is very low - in which case it will enter a slow hardware charge mode.	18:19
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SpeedEvil	Which is not fast enough to charge the device if it's used at all.	18:20
moo_	ok	18:20
SpeedEvil	And will take about 14 hours to charge, if idle.	18:20
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SpeedEvil	(But won't charge beyond about 10%)	18:20
moo_	is voltage updatedok	18:21
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moo_	is voltage info provided anywhere else? i.e will lshal still work?	18:22
SpeedEvil	I'm unsure. Yoiu can query the battery voltage direcytly over I2C	18:22
moo_	ok	18:22
SpeedEvil	Why are you asking?	18:22
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_BME	18:23
moo_	becuse i just found out what is irq 56 that is responsible for over 40% of my hw wakeups	18:24
moo_	it is bme btw	18:24
moo_	if it provides nothing more than 'reporting' battery charge...	18:24
moo_	fuck it	18:24
jacekowski	it's charging battery	18:24
moo_	I can monitor dbus for 'charger connected' message	18:25
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moo_	then start dbus when charger is connected, stop it when disconnected	18:25
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moo_	I have the script that i think was written by dr scrutiniser	18:26
SpeedEvil	moo_: It's monitoring the charge process - it means little.	18:26
SpeedEvil	moo_: Check it with the USB lead off	18:26
moo_	check what?	18:27
SpeedEvil	Unplug the USB lead.	18:27
SpeedEvil	powertop	18:27
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SpeedEvil	You should see several seconds between wakes - average c4 residence time - with all radios off	18:27
pauly	any one want to buy n900 with broken usb port and no stylus	18:27
moo_	what country?	18:27
Sicelo	hey ya pauly	18:27
pauly	usa	18:28
moo_	bleh	18:28
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moo_	SpeedEvil: I was suggesting ONLY running bme when plugged into charger. start and stop of bme controlled by the charger plugged/unplugged dbus message.	18:29
pauly	sicelo want to buy it	18:29
moo_	SpeedEvil: you understard.	18:29
moo_	?	18:29
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moo_	or even better...	18:31
SpeedEvil	moo_: BME does nothing when unplugged - pretty much	18:31
SpeedEvil	moo_: It does not significanrtly wake the device.	18:31
pauly	hmmm	18:31
moo_	EXACTLY!	18:31
moo_	it does	18:31
moo_	it generates around 250 hw wake ups over 30s	18:31
SpeedEvil	Pastebin powertop please.	18:31
SpeedEvil	This is with the screen off?	18:32
moo_	yes	18:32
pauly	Sicelo: ?	18:32
SpeedEvil	Pastebin your powertop output	18:32
moo_	i am not asking help with power issues	18:32
SpeedEvil	Do you have any battery monitoring software running?	18:33
moo_	no	18:33
moo_	there is nothing wrong with my setup just now	18:33
SpeedEvil	moo_: There is.	18:33
moo_	battery is fine	18:33
moo_	orly?	18:33
SpeedEvil	BME should not b significantly active when device is unplugged.	18:33
moo_	ok, il give you a ptop then	18:34
SpeedEvil	device unplugged - offline mode - with device locked	18:34
moo_	with device unplugged, offline mode+ locked i get around 500wakups/s with around 2seconds in c4	18:35
moo_	which is about the same as a freshly flashed n900	18:36
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moo_	which is normal	18:36
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SpeedEvil	Wakeups/second is misleading.	18:36
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SpeedEvil	You almost don't care about it.	18:36
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SpeedEvil	You care about wakeups from C4 lots more than you care about wakeups from C1	18:37
SpeedEvil	But they are all reported the same	18:37
moo_	agree	18:37
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moo_	ok here is what im gonna do	18:41
moo_	when the dbus inactivity message is sent i will underclock, undervolt and stop bme.	18:43
moo_	when the phone is unlocked bme starts again.	18:43
moo_	bme will only be stopped IF the charger is unplugged.	18:43
moo_	that way when phone is in pocket (most of the time) bme will not be running	18:44
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moo_	thus saving me ~250 hw w/s	18:45
SpeedEvil	Pointless.	18:45
moo_	pointless?	18:45
SpeedEvil	I've had 8 days battery life, with logged into wifi, with BME running.	18:45
SpeedEvil	And cell modem on	18:46
moo_	8 days?	18:46
Sicelo	wow!	18:46
SpeedEvil	yes	18:46
moo_	what?	18:46
Hukka	SpeedEvil: How?	18:46
moo_	i dont believ you!	18:46
Hukka	Is your phone just magical?	18:46
moo_	how.	18:46
moo_	?	18:46
SpeedEvil	Leave the device idle - have a properly powersaving AP.	18:46
SpeedEvil	And not have any software that's doing bad stuff.	18:46
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moo_	agree	18:46
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moo_	don't believe 8 days though	18:47
* SpeedEvil checks.		18:47
SpeedEvil	It was around that.	18:47
Corsac	well, if you leave the device idle battery life doesn't really matter, you could switch it off and it would last weeks :)	18:47
moo_	ha!	18:47
moo_	n900 sucks a paperweight	18:47
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kerio	i didn't know paperweights needed a battery	18:48
SpeedEvil	I regularly get power consumption rates in the 6-8mA range. This equates to about 8 days.	18:48
SpeedEvil	And I did a test over about 6 days of minimal usage	18:48
moo_	if i wanted crazy batterylife i would have a monochrome nokia	18:48
SpeedEvil	Installing powerrtop again to check.	18:49
moo_	pt doesnt tell you the discharge current	18:49
SpeedEvil	No. it doesn't.	18:50
moo_	where are you getting that 6-8 figure from.	18:50
moo_	?	18:50
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_Power_management	18:50
SpeedEvil	Read that - which I mostly wrote.	18:50
moo_	that looks like an interesting read SpeedEvil	18:52
moo_	thank you	18:52
moo_	brb!	18:52
DocScrutinizer	100% same page with SpeedEvil	18:54
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SpeedEvil	What would be truly awesome would be a powertop that gave the pid/activity/name chart - but *12 - for each state to each other state	18:55
SpeedEvil	What you really care about is what woke it from C4.	18:55
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SpeedEvil	Not what the system chose to do while it was awake.	18:55
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: there are no 12 state transitions. The state machine diagram has pointers from c1..c5 ->c0 only	18:57
SpeedEvil	hmm	18:57
SpeedEvil	ah	18:57
DocScrutinizer	there's never a c5->c3 transition	18:57
derf	I've always found powertop to be mostly useless.	18:57
SpeedEvil	I suppose so.	18:57
SpeedEvil	Obvious really.	18:57
SpeedEvil	derf: It's mostly uselss - if you read it like top.	18:58
SpeedEvil	derf: You need to understand what it means.	18:58
derf	As the vast majority of the wakeups it reports are "kernel timer", and doesn't give any obvious way to associate those with processes, or even any specific activity.	18:58
SpeedEvil	Indeed.	18:58
SpeedEvil	Also see the comedic 'awk' reference.	18:58
* Sicelo never knew there is screen for N900. wow!		19:00
trx	damn i lost my stylus :/	19:00
trx	i dont even use it but i hate looking at the empty slot :/	19:00
Hukka	trx: Bubble gum :?	19:02
DocScrutinizer	chewinggum	19:02
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moo_	trx: go on deal extreme they are lie $1	19:02
DocScrutinizer	heh	19:02
trx	haha :)	19:02
trx	moo_ tnx	19:02
moo_	DocScrutinizer: what ever became of jr_bme?	19:02
DocScrutinizer	riping	19:02
DocScrutinizer	:-D	19:02
Hukka	Though if color matters, I'm sure there's children's molding wax too	19:02
moo_	DocScrutinizer: what like fruit?	19:03
DocScrutinizer	more like brandy	19:03
trx	lol	19:03
moo_	so i gotta wait for jr_bme XO edition?	19:04
DocScrutinizer	look at http://enivax.net/jk/n900/charge.sh.txt	19:04
moo_	I have seen the script	19:04
DocScrutinizer	there are details in bme that are a pita to emulate, like hal_addon_bme for proper battery charge reporting	19:05
DocScrutinizer	monitoring of sysfs for detecting plug in of charger without polling	19:05
moo_	charger has a dbus signal	19:06
moo_	no polling required	19:06
DocScrutinizer	only when bme is running ;-P	19:06
moo_	orly?	19:06
DocScrutinizer	afaik yes	19:06
moo_	dang	19:06
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moo_	gotta check this...brb	19:07
DocScrutinizer	charger plugin is detected in musb_hdrc.ko (the part where you can find the "some asshole called chargerdetect" comment in hostmode enabled kernel) and that's what bme does and why we needed to stop it (among other reasons) for h-e-n to work properly	19:09
ShadowJK	bme is the one that generates the dbus signal	19:09
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DocScrutinizer	actually that function in musb_hdrc gets called when you read /sys/*/charger	19:11
DocScrutinizer	bme does that	19:11
DocScrutinizer	anyway, what you want to detect is /sys/*/vbus	19:12
DocScrutinizer	dunno who does that, guess it's bme as well	19:12
moo_	there is a dbus message there	19:12
moo_	ok	19:13
DocScrutinizer	of course there's hulda as well	19:13
moo_	/quit	19:13
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DocScrutinizer	maybe it plays the game	19:13
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gn00b	anyone have an N900 that suddenly won't charge? i've always used the usb > computer to charge my phone, but now it doesn't work. tried the wall charger and that doesn't work either.	19:15
Hukka	Has the usb socket come off the board?	19:15
DocScrutinizer	bad news	19:15
gn00b	does nokia make a charger just for the battery?	19:15
DocScrutinizer	sure	19:15
* RST38h yawns widely		19:15
gn00b	Hukka, no. it works for other devices	19:15
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DocScrutinizer	eh?	19:16
DocScrutinizer	gn00b: we're talking bout N900 USB receptacle	19:16
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gn00b	yes	19:16
Hukka	Time to ask again: Does anyone know if there's a way to programmatically disable the proximity sensor? More precisely I'd like calls to be visible and enable the touchscreen even when in a pocket	19:16
DocScrutinizer	that's a function of dialer I guess	19:17
DocScrutinizer	can't get changed easily	19:17
MohammadAG	unless you disable it in mce	19:17
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DocScrutinizer	:nod:	19:17
Hukka	MohammadAG: Could you elaborate?	19:17
DocScrutinizer	good point	19:17
MohammadAG	edit /etc/mce/mce.ini	19:18
DocScrutinizer	head /etc/mce/mce.ini	19:18
MohammadAG	line Modules=	19:18
MohammadAG	remove callstate	19:18
MohammadAG	stop mce && sleep 1 && start mce	19:18
MohammadAG	that will also keep ts vibra active during calls	19:19
DocScrutinizer	nice :-P	19:19
MohammadAG	right now haptic feedback is disabled in calls, for some reason...	19:19
Hukka	Hm?	19:19
Hukka	I do get vibra when called	19:19
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MohammadAG	Hukka, after answering	19:20
DocScrutinizer	touchscreen feedback kick	19:20
MohammadAG	during calls, you don't get vibra feedback when you touch the screen	19:20
MohammadAG	of course, you could have that disabled all in all	19:20
DocScrutinizer	usually	19:20
Hukka	Ah, yeah I have touch vibra off all the time	19:20
Hukka	Haven't ever noticed :)	19:20
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MohammadAG	so it shouldn't matter to you :p	19:20
Hukka	Hm? FAM want's to remove my flac support in upgrade	19:21
Hukka	I wonder why	19:21
DocScrutinizer	but watch your earlobes then :-D	19:21
* MohammadAG ponders removing the homekey module		19:21
MohammadAG	it's not like we have a homekey	19:21
Hukka	DocScrutinizer: ?	19:21
MohammadAG	he means touchscreen will be active in call	19:21
Hukka	Ah, doesn't matter	19:22
MohammadAG	tbh, Nokia's current solution sucks	19:22
Hukka	I'll use handsfree or speaker	19:22
MohammadAG	they could just disable the screen	19:22
MohammadAG	rather than turn it off	19:22
Hukka	MohammadAG: Sorry, what's the difference?	19:22
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: it makes for 35% increased call time	19:22
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pupnik	http://www.theage.com.au/technology/technology-news/obama-internet-kill-switch-proposed-20100618-yln6.html	19:22
MohammadAG	echo 1 > /sys/devices/platform/omap2_mcspi.1/spi1.0/disable_ts	19:23
MohammadAG	that disables the touchscreen	19:23
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MohammadAG	but keeps it on	19:23
DocScrutinizer	wow	19:23
DocScrutinizer	didn't know	19:23
MohammadAG	there's also keypad disable somewhere	19:24
MohammadAG	basically, that's what mce does	19:24
Hukka	I was hoping for something like that for the proximity sensor, but I'll try the mce thing	19:24
MohammadAG	it disables the screen and blanks it	19:24
MohammadAG	that's the "lock"	19:24
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Hukka	MohammadAG: You woudln't happen to know if there's a way to change the autolock feature from command line?	19:25
MohammadAG	gconf	19:25
Hukka	I'd also like the screen to react to touch after blanking in two minutes	19:25
MohammadAG	hmm?	19:25
Hukka	But would like to make a small applet on home screen that can change this, so I wouldn't have to go to the settings all the time	19:26
MohammadAG	isn't there an option for that?	19:26
MohammadAG	ah	19:26
MohammadAG	yeah, gconf	19:26
Hukka	Any hints where to find the right toggle?	19:26
MohammadAG	you can find the gconf keys here http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/osso-applet-display	19:26
Hukka	Ok, thank you	19:26
MohammadAG	under src, should be in the #define-s	19:26
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moo_	yo	19:27
moo_	ok	19:27
moo_	oy	19:27
Hukka	Great, I think this should cover it	19:27
DocScrutinizer	moo_: ??	19:27
moo_	will turning off watchdog timers reduce number of hardware wakups.	19:27
moo_	?	19:28
DocScrutinizer	not significantly	19:28
DocScrutinizer	actually not at all	19:28
Hukka	MohammadAG: I have a transparent pocket in my bikes handlebar bag, but it prevents access to the side keys, and proximity sensor doesn't think it's that transparent. Now I can create a "bikemode" applet that in one click makes the phone operatable through the pocket plastic	19:28
Hukka	And once I'm done, another press would make it work ok in my trouser pocket again	19:29
MohammadAG	ah, should be easy	19:29
DocScrutinizer	Hukka: sounds good	19:29
moo_	how can i have right click with prox sensor covered?	19:30
Hukka	Though when I asked before I only got the usual "Why do you want to use it in a pocket? Make a hole in the pocket or something. I hear that some fabrics can make the sensor think it's outside"	19:30
DocScrutinizer	hmm, nice idea	19:30
moo_	DocScrutinizer: me?	19:30
DocScrutinizer	yo	19:30
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Hukka	Also I think the applet should change the status lights so that I don't leave it on accidentaly and make pocket calls	19:31
DocScrutinizer	Hukka: np, you can change mce.ini for that	19:31
moo_	finally, everyday i spend literally minutes inventing schemes to suggest in here under different user names just to impress you doc.	19:31
Hukka	DocScrutinizer: Yeah, that I already knew	19:31
moo_	now i can sleep	19:32
MohammadAG	well, he can't change mce.ini dynamically :P	19:32
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: huh, he can't?	19:32
Hukka	I can't?	19:32
moo_	you have to restat mce AFAIK	19:33
DocScrutinizer	pattern editor can	19:33
Hukka	But is that a problem?	19:33
DocScrutinizer	no	19:33
MohammadAG	he has to restart it	19:33
Hukka	MohammadAG: Any downsides?	19:33
MohammadAG	no, but do it over 5 times quickly and it locks for 5 minutes	19:33
Hukka	Oh, why?	19:34
DocScrutinizer	not really, except losing any special state of indicator light, like blue blinking	19:34
MohammadAG	stupid upstart safety feature	19:34
jacekowski	you probably can modify patterns live	19:34
Hukka	How quickly is quickly?	19:34
jacekowski	i mean it's all in memory	19:34
MohammadAG	5 times under a minute	19:34
Hukka	MohammadAG: No problem at all	19:34
moo_	so which driver detects touchscreen input? and how is a 'click' detected?	19:34
jacekowski	and there is nothing stopping you from modyfying of process memory	19:34
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MohammadAG	I guess	19:35
Hukka	Moving on in the list of "perfect cycle phone", is there a good portrait mode clock application?	19:35
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: evil hax0r	19:35
Hukka	Using the alarm clock app is a bit annoying, since the phone pocket is in portrait	19:35
MohammadAG	tsc2005.ko	19:35
MohammadAG	the touchscreen is a glorified mouse	19:35
MohammadAG	Hukka, not that I know of, but one should be easy to make with Qt	19:36
RST38h	"To access HBO GO^(SM), you must reside within the fifty states of the United States of America.	19:36
RST38h	If you reside in this area and are still experiencing difficulties, please contact your television provider."	19:36
RST38h	(and then they complain about people using torrents...)	19:36
Hukka	Hm, although maybe a talking clock would be even better...	19:37
Hukka	I'll check that app too	19:37
DocScrutinizer	now THAT is simple	19:37
moo_	where is the source? and is it feasible to put a condition that reports the click 'check proxitity sensor, if 1, right click. else left.	19:37
Hukka	MohammadAG: Does the order of modules in mce.ini matter?	19:37
MohammadAG	nope	19:37
Hukka	Would be easier to programmaticly add the callstate back as the last in line.	19:37
Hukka	Ok, great	19:37
MohammadAG	moo_, not sure how easy that'd be	19:38
jacekowski	moo_: not so easy	19:39
moo_	bah	19:39
MohammadAG	you'd need to connect two drivers together, or modify X's config	19:39
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DocScrutinizer	hmm layering issues	19:39
moo_	my dreams of a rightclick evapourate like spirit of christmas past@3am	19:39
MohammadAG	I also think there's a way of modifying UX toolkits	19:40
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MohammadAG	you might be able to modify Qt and Gtk's sources to do that	19:40
Hukka	MohammadAG: Hm, removing the callstate module didn't really do what I was hoping for...	19:40
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MohammadAG	they're already modifed to have hold to right click	19:40
MohammadAG	Hukka, hmm?	19:40
Hukka	MohammadAG: If the screen is blanked, it won't activate it at all, no matter what the proximity sensor says	19:40
DocScrutinizer	mhm	19:41
MohammadAG	you mean when a call comes in?	19:41
Hukka	I'd like the screen to get activated all the time, no matter whether it thinks it's in a pocket or not	19:41
Hukka	MohammadAG: Yes	19:41
DocScrutinizer	it's not aware of callstate anymore ;-P	19:41
MohammadAG	make a quick script for it	19:41
MohammadAG	just listen to dbus	19:41
MohammadAG	com.nokia.csd.Call or something	19:41
Hukka	Ok, and how to activate the screen?	19:41
MohammadAG	then tie that to unlock the screen with mce	19:41
MohammadAG	mce	19:41
MohammadAG	dbus-send --system --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.mce /com/nokia/mce/request com.nokia.mce.request.req_tklock_mode_change string:"unlocked"	19:42
Hukka	Is there a howto page on the mce somewhere?	19:42
DocScrutinizer	nah	19:42
MohammadAG	dbus-scripts can help, but I suck at it so I'd rather make a Qt daemon	19:42
DocScrutinizer	but we got source of something \o/	19:42
Hukka	dbus-scripts is an app, or something?	19:43
DocScrutinizer	yep	19:43
DocScrutinizer	a nice app	19:43
moo_	hey mo, what is gps callback in 'phone-control'?	19:43
Hukka	How would the Qt daemon differ, it needs to bind to the dbus anyway?	19:43
DocScrutinizer	to monitor dbus for certain patterns and then start arbitrary scripts	19:43
MohammadAG	it ties dbus events to dbus methods afaik	19:43
moo_	Hukka: dbus-scripts is the n900 swiss chainsaw	19:43
moo_	Hukka: of scripting	19:44
Hukka	Maybe I'll see that first	19:44
DocScrutinizer	I strongly recomend to do that	19:44
Hukka	Might be that I never even bother to make a desktop app, instead just run the mode change from terminal every time ;)	19:44
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MohammadAG	phone-control --gps?	19:44
moo_	Hukka: dbus-scripts-settings is also useful for getting started too.	19:44
Hukka	Would it make sense to have my script to change the indicator colors "manually", or would it be better to use another app for that (I know there are some for changing the colors)?	19:45
DocScrutinizer	Hukka: queen-beecon widget?	19:45
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Hukka	DocScrutinizer: Never heard of that, I'll check it	19:45
moo_	MohammadAG: in the source for PC there is an 'experimental' function for gps that is not listed	19:45
DocScrutinizer	moo_: dbus-scripts-settings is kinda PITA and buggy	19:46
Hukka	DocScrutinizer: Seems like it might be nice too	19:46
moo_	i was wondering what it does	19:46
pupnik	what's the command to make a screenshot	19:46
pupnik	on n900	19:46
moo_	DocScrutinizer: agree, however it helped me understand what was going on	19:46
moo_	with dbus-scripts	19:46
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Hukka	Where can I find the dbus-scripts? FAM doesn't find it	19:47
DocScrutinizer	yeah, I think I looked at an own homemade example of -settings, then edited the file to match what I needed	19:47
Hukka	Hm, found the wiki page	19:47
Hukka	Weird, I thought I still have extras-devel on	19:47
Hukka	Yeah, I do. Still no hit	19:48
DocScrutinizer	use HAM!	19:48
SpeedEvil	Hukka: I would try putting a small bit of foil and black insulation tap over the sensor, and see if it doesn't see either	19:49
Hukka	SpeedEvil: I'm more of a sw than hw hacker ;)	19:49
SpeedEvil	Is there a 'right' way to stop dsme?	19:49
pupnik	The air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the ship's electronic antennas and dishes. The 'Liberty' was left afire, listing sharply. Eight of her crew lay dead, a hundred seriously wounded, including the captain, Commander William McGonagle.	19:49
DocScrutinizer	stop dsme? err no, maybe not	19:49
Hukka	SpeedEvil: But I don't quite get it, the foil reflects so isn't that exactly what the sensor sees as the pocket?	19:50
SpeedEvil	I only know that name from: http://www.mcgonagall-online.org.uk/poems/pgbridge.htm	19:50
SpeedEvil	Hukka: I don't know	19:50
Hukka	At least someone said that it uses reflections	19:50
DocScrutinizer	Hukka: yes	19:50
SpeedEvil	BEAUTIFUL Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay !	19:51
SpeedEvil	With your numerous arches and pillars in so grand array	19:51
SpeedEvil	And your central girders, which seem to the eye	19:51
SpeedEvil	To be almost towering to the sky.	19:51
DocScrutinizer	you could try black velvet or similar	19:51
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DocScrutinizer	o/	19:52
DocScrutinizer	this time and today for real	19:52
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moo	lol random reboot due to all my crap scriptz	19:53
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moo_	what is the entry in /sys/ that details charger?	19:54
moo_	musb_hdrc	19:55
moo_	gotcha	19:55
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nusse	where do the ULOG_DEBUG_L() logs go to?	20:17
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MohammadAG	who knows curl?	20:26
Corsac	ask?	20:27
nusse	never heard of it	20:27
nusse	ULOG_* goes to syslog, btw.	20:27
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nusse	is there a special maemo-dev channel?	20:28
ruskie	yup	20:28
ruskie	-devel	20:28
MohammadAG	variable= {variable2=value, variable3=anothervalue }	20:28
MohammadAG	what do the {} brackets do?	20:29
DocScrutinizer	rather dead over there at -devel	20:29
nusse	ruskie: thx	20:29
nusse	DocScrutinizer: i didn't receive any answers here either	20:30
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe because nobody knew an answer?	20:30
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: looks like python?	20:31
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, nah, curl	20:32
DocScrutinizer	no idea	20:32
DocScrutinizer	I think it's caled curl because of the curly brackets	20:33
nusse	i'm wondering if the sharing-infrastructure always needs an account, i receive "sharing_account_store_add_account need to create new last added id"	20:33
DocScrutinizer	looks like a definition of a dict/struct instance	20:34
DocScrutinizer	what makes you all think anybody here knows what you're talking about?	20:35
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DocScrutinizer	feels like	20:36
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DocScrutinizer	shall I use a better word for 'people' in line 7 of this letter?	20:36
DocScrutinizer	(sic!)	20:37
nusse	well, this is the #maemo channel and i'm asking maemo questions	20:39
kerio	DocScrutinizer: python uses : to delimit keys and values in dict literals	20:39
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RST38h	Doc:using "puny humans" always makes it sound more official	20:41
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DocScrutinizer	~question	20:42
infobot	methinks question is If you have a question and want people to give useful answers, make sure you have read this first: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html	20:42
Sicelo	:)	20:42
dashavoo	anybody have problems tethering N900 in the latest Ubuntu?	20:42
nusse	dashavoo: pand didnt work for me but it might be a problem on my laptop	20:43
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dashavoo	nusse: I can't tether using USB on the latest Ubuntu.. I knew I should have installed alongside my old version insead of a fresh install... now I have no software, and no internet cconnection	20:44
dashavoo	I would be really screwed if I didn't have my laptop	20:44
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kr1shnak	hi. I have an old N800 device which I would like to so some hobbyist hacking on. I just want to play around, not spend a lot of time on any particular language or APIs. Could anyone recommend tools, libraries for this kind of fun hacking?	21:05
kr1shnak	basically I want to put the minimal amount of time into this, but want to make use of the hardware. Maybe create some kind of pimped out alarm clock from it or something like that	21:06
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pupnik	use it	21:09
dangergrrl	hey DocScrutinizer and MohammadAG thanks for the pointer on the modified fmtxd, i can transmit on illegal freqs while charging now :)	21:10
dangergrrl	of course the xmit on illegal freqs part isn't all that useful i only have legal receivers :)	21:11
pupnik	dangergrrl: did you download the guantanamo detainee list	21:11
pupnik	from google spreadsheets?	21:11
dangergrrl	no, why should i look for myself in case they think i am there? :)	21:11
pupnik	there are still people locked in that dungeon	21:11
pupnik	we should free them	21:11
dangergrrl	yes and usa and uk and the others need to leave afghanistan	21:12
pupnik	this needs to be forcefully said	21:12
dangergrrl	osama bin laden was the goal, he is reportedly dead	21:12
dangergrrl	fait accompli	21:12
pupnik	i agree	21:12
pupnik	now is the excuse to go home	21:13
dangergrrl	well, i voted for the guy who promised those things	21:13
dangergrrl	so far he hasn't kept his word	21:13
pupnik	should have supported ron paul	21:13
dangergrrl	but i did my part	21:13
pupnik	you have another chance	21:13
pupnik	to not be stupid this time	21:13
dangergrrl	and i voted for my gay congresscreep	21:13
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dangergrrl	so i don't bother writing him letters to repeal DOMA	21:14
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pupnik	there is one good man in congress	21:14
dangergrrl	you would think he knows his constituents support that	21:14
pupnik	he is only there	21:14
dangergrrl	rol paul?	21:14
dangergrrl	ron	21:14
pupnik	because he delivered most of his constitutents	21:14
pupnik	yep	21:14
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dangergrrl	i voted for him for president on the libertarian ticket	21:15
pupnik	suddenly i love you	21:15
pupnik	:)	21:15
dangergrrl	if i hadn't been scared stiff of sarah palin i would have voted for nader last time tbh	21:15
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dangergrrl	i believe in the green party agenda	21:16
dangergrrl	but mccain/palin was scary	21:16
dangergrrl	mccain is OLD	21:16
pupnik	i agree	21:16
pupnik	please check out scott horton's show every day	21:16
pupnik	he is truly great	21:17
dangergrrl	i should listen to a recent art bell or alex jones show	21:17
pupnik	noo	21:17
dangergrrl	both of them are certifiable crackpots	21:17
pupnik	dumb dumb	21:17
pupnik	scott horton	21:17
dangergrrl	but some of what they say has to be true	21:17
pupnik	smart smart	21:17
pupnik	don't waste your time	21:17
pupnik	how the hell do you not know antiwar radio	21:18
pupnik	how are you so... uninformed	21:18
dangergrrl	i don't buy the orbital mind control satellites	21:18
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dangergrrl	or the reptiallian shadow government conspiracy	21:18
pupnik	i am angry and dismayed at you	21:18
pupnik	you are talking about stupid things	21:18
dangergrrl	someone would know if our leaders were secretly snakes	21:18
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pupnik	shut the fuck up	21:18
dangergrrl	but the govt is feeding 9/11 conspiracy theory by not releasing proof of obl's death in a timely fashion	21:19
pupnik	dumb bitch	21:20
pupnik	learn	21:20
pupnik	antiwar.com	21:20
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trx	o_O	21:21
dangergrrl	i like the www he linked	21:21
dangergrrl	i still believe there is value in listening to nutjobs	21:22
trx	you shouldn't talk about topics that can lead to exactly this anyways..	21:22
dangergrrl	i think mentioning illegal broadcasting led to this :)	21:23
trx	lol	21:23
dangergrrl	in practice the part of the band that my n900 can now transmit to is being used for greyspace internet in some cities	21:24
dangergrrl	i wouldn't want to interfere with those signals	21:24
MohammadAG	but FM stations already interfere with your music, so the effects' downsides are canceled out :P	21:25
dangergrrl	if i had another n900 it could be useful for point to point	21:25
dangergrrl	i'm wanting a way to enable the mic and fm transmitter from ssh if it's stolen	21:26
trx	why the transmitter?	21:27
dangergrrl	so you can hear around the n900 from a fm radio if you are nearby	21:27
trx	haha, the small chance that you will be in 3 meters of your stolen n900	21:28
dangergrrl	i think the n900 may make a fairly handy spy device also other than short battery life	21:28
dangergrrl	oh	21:28
trx	its a*	21:28
dangergrrl	maybe not :P	21:28
dangergrrl	actually it only works for about a meter on my bike radio	21:29
dangergrrl	didn't think of that	21:29
trx	even better :)	21:29
dangergrrl	never mind	21:29
dangergrrl	i'm a blonde	21:29
trx	it would be easier to just play music via the speakers :)	21:29
dangergrrl	but i'm guessing that's partially the ignition rf noise	21:30
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dangergrrl	n900 works on the motorcycle if it's closer to the radio than my spark plugs	21:31
dangergrrl	probably in my head	21:31
trx	probably :)	21:31
iluminator101	Hey, How Do I Import Public Holidays to n900 main calender?	21:31
dangergrrl	uhm	21:32
dangergrrl	i bet they are in cal format somewhere	21:32
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dangergrrl	oh wow	21:33
dangergrrl	the bl-5j stores 1320 mAh	21:33
dangergrrl	my new jump pack 12Ah	21:33
dangergrrl	so it should be able to fully charge n900 like 9 times	21:34
dangergrrl	but it's usb port won't charge n900, have to use a car charger with it	21:34
SpeedEvil	'jump pack' ?	21:35
SpeedEvil	If that's 12V@12Ah - that is more like 25 times.	21:35
dangergrrl	portable battery booster for starting a car or motorcycle	21:35
dangergrrl	25 times... even better	21:35
dangergrrl	i was thinking of buying a powermonkey extreme solar charger for camping at the beach	21:36
dangergrrl	this thing needs a vehicle or grid power to recharge	21:37
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dangergrrl	but it was only $60us, powermonkey extreme isn't shipping for several weeks and costs 100gbp	21:38
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SpeedEvil	You can get solar thingies that will recharge it	21:42
SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SOLAR-12W-12V-POWER-GENERATOR-CHARGER-PANEL-PORTABLE-/190466890893?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item2c58b61c8d	21:43
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dangergrrl	it's one of these: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/8iOx0WirtIeGqfXrYATATGBiq5frSBLUYp7dIeyT-UI?feat=directlink	21:45
dangergrrl	nice camping equipment but i wish i had a trailer	21:46
SpeedEvil	Caveats - if you discharge it deeply, and then leave it, it's probably wrecked. It needs to be recharged promptly if you discharge it under 10.6V	21:47
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dangergrrl	if i use it camping i'll be hiking to charge it when it gets low	21:47
dangergrrl	i bought it because i was stranded with a dead battery yesterday	21:48
dangergrrl	it was a jump pak or cables and sit around looking dumb holding cables	21:48
dangergrrl	i'd have gotten a jump i'm sure but the jump pak is more useful	21:48
SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/12V-12W-Polycrystalline-Household-Car-Solar-Power-Panel-/130441557699?pt=AU_Solar&hash=item1e5eec36c3 - or similar - would charge it in 2-3 days of good sun	21:49
dangergrrl	i presume it's a dry cell battery or there would be warnings about charging it indoors	21:49
dangergrrl	https://powertraveller.com/iwantsome/primatepower/powermonkeyextreme/	21:50
dangergrrl	looking at that one lustfully	21:50
SpeedEvil	It's not.	21:50
SpeedEvil	It'll be a sealed lead-acid.	21:50
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dangergrrl	been shopping for an agm one for my motorcycle i think the walmart lead acid one i have is dieing	21:52
dangergrrl	but i guess if i carry a jump pack i won't care that much	21:53
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SpeedEvil	As context - the battery you have is 4-5 times that capacity.	21:53
SpeedEvil	(though admittedly a bit heavier than 5*)	21:53
dangergrrl	4-5* the powermonkey extreme?	21:54
SpeedEvil	yes	21:54
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dangergrrl	but the powermonkey comes with the solar charger	21:54
RST38h	No, you cannot charge your car or bike battery with solar power.	21:55
dangergrrl	and it's rated better than the solio	21:55
RST38h	-- Sincerely Yours, Cpt Obvious	21:55
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SpeedEvil	RST38h: Err - yes, you can.	21:55
RST38h	Speed: Ok, theoretically you can/	21:56
SpeedEvil	See the above link	21:56
RST38h	Practically, you are screwed there	21:56
dangergrrl	actually i bet i could charge this jump box enough to get er started if i were camping anyhow	21:56
dangergrrl	might take a day or three	21:56
SpeedEvil	The above panel will work - if in good sun and pointed right - to charge it in about a day or two	21:56
dangergrrl	that panel with what i already have would be a great combo for camping at the beach	21:57
RST38h	Or a week, yes	21:57
RST38h	Forget it, it is snake oil	21:58
SpeedEvil	A week of bad weather, yes	21:58
RST38h	month of bad weather	21:58
jacekowski	is official repository blocked in iran or something?	21:58
dangergrrl	oh hai jacekowski	21:59
jacekowski	i've had recently quite a lot of traffic to my repo mirror from iran	21:59
dangergrrl	thanks for the fmtx hack	21:59
jacekowski	who are you?	21:59
ShadowJK	Yeah I think it's blockdd in iran	22:00
dangergrrl	someone who was referred to your page yesterday when i lamented not being to charge my n900 with using the fm transmitter	22:00
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dangergrrl	getting ready for an epic motorcycle trip, need my pandora on the road :)	22:01
SpeedEvil	If you're on a motorbike trip - driving lots - then you can tap the bike power	22:02
trx	what motorcycle do you have?	22:02
dangergrrl	a gold wing gl1500	22:02
trx	nice	22:03
trx	not a fan of those bikes tho	22:03
dangergrrl	i was gonna hack my own secondary power system	22:03
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dangergrrl	but i think the jump pak is a superior solution if i have room for it	22:04
trx	bikes usually get 12V from their generator	22:04
trx	why don't you use that?	22:04
jacekowski	dangergrrl: are you a female?	22:05
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dangergrrl	yes	22:05
dangergrrl	key cylinder is blown and it's supereasy to take the key out in on position	22:05
jacekowski	hmm, unusual	22:05
dangergrrl	battery drains and you can't start	22:05
jacekowski	do you have any photos to prove it	22:06
jacekowski	like you holding a piece of paper with text like "maemo ftw"	22:06
jacekowski	and current data	22:06
jacekowski	date*	22:06
* SpeedEvil notes jacekowski wants pics of a loose cylinder.		22:06
trx	lol	22:06
nox-	haha	22:06
RST38h	current datE, jacekowski	22:07
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jacekowski	RST38h: i've corrected myself in next line	22:07
RST38h	and something is telling me, you are not getting one	22:07
* RST38h laughs satanically		22:08
dangergrrl	maybe i'm ugly and self conscious :P	22:08
RST38h	or REALLY interested in loose cylinders!	22:08
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trx	haha	22:14
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nusse	can anyone point me out how to debug sharing-plugsin?	22:32
RST38h	printfs?	22:32
nusse	where do they go to?	22:32
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RST38h	wherever you direct them to	22:33
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nusse	i'd like to use ULOG_ then	22:34
nusse	or gdb	22:34
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RST38h	You can use GDB if you figure out the PID of the process that runs your plugin	22:36
RST38h	I.e., use printfs :)	22:37
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Arkenoi	http://www.unxisco.com/faqs/ wow, aren't that drugs on controlled substances list? or do those guys have a prescription?	22:39
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RST38h	Arkenoi: Lawyers. They have all got prescriptions.	22:41
MohammadAG	didn't this channel have about 500 users last year?	22:42
nusse	RST38h: i don't even know which methods are being called and i don't see why i shouldn use ULOG	22:42
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RST38h	nusse:ULOG will probably work	22:43
nusse	maybe i have to define OSSOLOG_COMPILE	22:44
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mc_teo	any html/css peeps here?	22:52
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Arkenoi	RST38h, they invested $25M in SCO! I wonder who owns that money and how do they feel about it.	23:01
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RST38h	Arkenoi: Some mutual funds. And they do not "feel" about it.	23:06
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Arkenoi	RST38h, something is damn wrong with economics if things like that are allowed and no one cares or questions the competence of people who manage other people's investments	23:12
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RST38h	Arkenoi: people who care do not invest into mutual funds.	23:14
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norayr	X-Fade: hey?	23:17
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