IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2011-04-08

gn00bwhen i look at the available memory, it shows that i have 253.0MB available00:00
pupniki wonder if you can get root without installing a package00:03
gn00bcan't install rootfs00:03
gn00bsudo asks for a password00:03
pupnikwhat does the application manager log say when you try to install an app?00:04
pupnikthere's a button somewhere for the logfile00:05
gn00bgonna have to put it in pastebin00:07
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pupnikwell is there one error message?00:07
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pupnikalso you can get root without installing extra apps  http://wiki.maemo.org/Root_access00:08
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gn00bhttp://pastebin.com/juS1GG6r00:13
MohammadAGever dropped the device?00:15
gn00bnever00:16
gn00bbought it used on nov 12th. worked fine up until now00:17
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pupnikgn00b: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7063100:19
pupniksame error00:19
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pupnikhttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1030500:20
povbot`Bug 10305: Application Manager in PR1.2 says not enough space even though there is.00:20
pupnikbug discussion00:20
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pupnikyou need to free up space gn00b00:20
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gn00bdoesn't it free up space when i do a hard reset?00:21
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pupnikif you do a df, what partition has apt-worker: freespace(/home/)= 161075200 ?00:22
gn00ball my music/pics are stored on my microsd card. the only thing on the phone is apps. and there really weren't that many00:22
pupniki recall your opt was quite full of stuff00:23
gn00bdf doesn00:23
gn00bdf doesn't show apt-worker anywhere00:24
pupnikyea do you see anything with about 161 mb free?00:24
gn00b* /home and /opt both have 15700:25
pupnikin one thread a guy says he needs 200MB free00:26
pupnikand that that solved it for him00:26
gn00blet me get be clear on something...a hard reset is just like a clean install, correct?00:27
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vi__is it possible to install maemo to eMMC and swap to nand?00:32
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vi__is it possible to roll our own firmware?00:37
SpeedEvilIn principle, it's possible to dothat, I've never seen anyone report trying, with success though.00:38
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MohammadAGyeah sure, just ask Nokia Legal00:39
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vi__could I use rescue kernel with usb mode and dd my own image on and off the device?00:40
SpeedEvilyes00:40
SpeedEvilOrsomething similar - I don't know id trhat exacrt way will actually work00:40
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MohammadAGdd-ing the mtdblock is something I suggest you don't do00:41
MohammadAGfor your own good :P00:41
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vi__lol, ok broski00:41
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MohammadAGfor the eMMC, it shouldn't matter00:41
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MohammadAGbut for the rootfs, I had to recover with Ubuntu on the N90000:41
SpeedEvilI know someone that's reflashed their OneNand from a meego boot - due to the USB connector being broken.00:42
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vi__if there was just some way i could rip the current state of my device to my own personal image00:42
vi__thatd be sweet00:42
SpeedEvilIIRC backupmenu will do that00:42
MohammadAGyeah00:42
vi__i was reading on the forum a post by egoshin00:43
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vi__that talked about moving the rootfs00:43
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vi__ you know the one i am referring to?00:43
* MohammadAG remembers it00:43
pupnikgn00b: not of everything00:44
pupnikany of you remember what can cause HAM to give disk full error when there's apparently free space on rootfs?00:45
pupniki think his /opt and /home has only 157 MB free which someone reported as causing the error00:46
gn00bcould i connect to my pc via usb and delete everything? then do a hard reset? or would that brick it?00:46
pupnikwell there should be things in there you can delete00:46
pupniknot necessarily 'everything'00:46
pupnikfor example i seem to have a bunch of old programs in /opt00:47
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pupnikif you look in there and see programs you don't have installed, those directories should be safe to remove00:47
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BCMMpupnik: does dpkg have a way to ask which package owns a specified file?00:48
BCMM(like dpgk -L, only backwards)00:48
pupnikyes BCMM and i keep forgetting it00:48
gn00bok...just got the truth from my son. he tried to install debian, but it didn't take.00:48
pupnikerm maybe not dpkg itself00:48
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vi__was egoshins script...sucessful?00:49
pupnikBCMM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apt-file00:49
gn00bpupnik, what can i go in and delete?00:49
vi__can i install it in paralell with backup menu?00:49
pupnikgn00b: to see what takes up space in a directory, i do this00:50
pupnikdu -s /opt/* |sort -n00:50
vi__i.e. kb open = BU menu kb blosed = eMMC boot00:50
vi__which directories have to be left on NAND?00:50
vi__for this sucker ro keep booting?00:51
pupnikheh, how do you do a | on n900 without the terminal hack00:51
pupnikwell you don't need the |sort -n part00:51
MohammadAGblue + ctrl00:51
pupnikty00:51
vi__pupnik: you alter your rx-51 file00:51
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gn00b34588 /opt/lib     32352 /opt/usr     13020 /opt/var00:52
pupnikah that's not taking up the space then00:52
pupnikthen it's some junk in home, probably the debian install00:52
vi__MohammadAG: does egoshin still hang out on here?00:53
MohammadAGnot sure if he even got on here00:53
vi__so he is another qwerty1200:54
vi__a genius that died before his time00:54
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pupnikqwerty12 died?00:54
vi__lol00:55
vi__figurativly00:55
pupnikoh forum burn-out00:55
pupnikgn00b: still with us?00:56
gn00byep00:56
gn00bgetting desperate00:56
pupnikdon't00:56
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pupnikdu -s /home/user00:57
pupnikdu -s /home/user/*00:57
pupniksorry00:57
MohammadAGwhy not use apt-get?00:57
pupnikwants to use HAM00:58
gn00bcan't sudo00:58
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pupnikyou can becomeroot in another way as well00:58
MohammadAGflip the switch on R&D mode00:58
pupnikbut what should he do as root?00:58
gn00b1695420 /home/user/MyDocs     8 /home/user/Xorg.0.log00:58
pupnikbesides free up the space00:59
MohammadAGcheck if /home is writable, if not, fsck it00:59
pupnikdon't paste everything it spets out00:59
pupnikMohammadAG: do you think it's related to this bug? https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1030501:00
povbot`Bug 10305: Application Manager in PR1.2 says not enough space even though there is.01:00
pupnikor do you think it might be related to only 157 MB free in /home?01:01
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MohammadAGI have no idea how HAM calculates this stuff01:01
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pupnikthere was some discussion from someone who had HAM error-out when /home was < 200MB01:02
LjLany hint about an N810 that's suddenly decided to reboot-loop, aside from reflashing? (its internal disk is likely full, i suspect that's at least part of the reason)01:02
pupniki mean > 200MB01:02
pupnikgn00b:  du -s /home/user/MyDocs/*    might show you some huge directories as well that you can delete01:05
pupnikheh, did for me01:05
gn00byep...there's the debian image files01:06
pupnikit's cool your son wants to install debian though :|01:07
gn00byeah, but not on my n90001:07
pupnik:)01:07
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gn00b"1 application successfully installed"01:09
gn00b:-)01:09
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pupnikawesome01:09
gn00bthanx for your help01:09
pupnikyou're very welcome01:10
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gn00bwas already on ebay about to bid on another one01:10
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pupniki'll post the workaround on that bugreport01:12
vi__mm, i gotta get another n900. i am hoping they will go cheap when the n9/n950/whatever is released01:12
pupnikme too01:13
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vi__unless it is shit01:13
vi__in which case price may rise!01:13
vi__has anyone compiled hdparm for n900 yet?01:13
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vi__oh yeah, debian binary01:14
pupnikhmm can't log in01:14
vi__how much faster is NAND than eMMC??01:14
SpeedEvilvi__: It's hard to say.01:14
SpeedEvilRaw read and write of large bloks is not.01:15
SpeedEvilI have not done small random write tests.01:15
pupnikgn00b: do you have an account on https://bugs.maemo.org/?01:15
gn00bnot yet01:15
gn00bguess i should get one, huh?01:15
vi__can the NAND be repartitioned?01:15
vi__or should i say partitioned?01:16
SpeedEvilIt is partitioned int 5 (?) at the moment01:17
SpeedEvilinto01:17
SpeedEvilIt is_not_ a block device - it's important to realise this.01:17
SpeedEvilTrying to treat it as a block device will screw you up.01:17
vi__oh?01:17
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pupnikgod damn it, i just changed my pass and i'm not getting on01:18
vi__how do you mean?01:18
SpeedEvilThe raw nand is a mtd device - a raw flash - this has bad blocks.01:18
pupnikgn00b: if you'd file that workaround to the bug i'd appreciate it01:18
SpeedEvilIf you treat it as a block device, you ignore bad blocks. This is bad.01:18
pupniki want to get back to my program01:18
vi__right01:18
vi__so how do nokia work around this issue?01:19
pupnikhttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1030501:19
povbot`Bug 10305: Application Manager in PR1.2 says not enough space even though there is.01:19
SpeedEvilvi__: ubifs understands bad blocks01:19
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SpeedEvilcat /sys/class/ubi/ubi0/bad_peb_count01:20
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SpeedEvilThis is bad blocks. Mine has one.01:20
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vi__so i cant really use it as a disk then?01:20
SpeedEvilNo.01:20
SpeedEvilNot unless the firlesystem understands that it's flash.01:20
vi__aaah01:20
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vi__ubifs is a file system?01:21
SpeedEvilIt is really 2009 (in my case) seperate 128K seperately erasable storage units.01:21
SpeedEvilyes01:21
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SpeedEvilthe emmc is too - but it has hardware to hide this.01:22
SpeedEvilAlso themicroSD01:22
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vi__could i put a swap file onto it then?01:22
vi__using 128k pages01:23
vi__or am I just barking up the wrong ass here?01:23
vi__was egoshin right when he implied there is much cpu overhead involved in dealing with ubif?01:25
vi__SpeedEvil: ?01:25
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vi__gtg, will have to ask you more questions tomorrow speeeeeeed01:27
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gn00bpupnik, can i pm you? about to file bug01:39
SpeedEvilVi: swap on 128K pages will basically do hideous things.01:42
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SpeedEvilVi: Swap on flash is not really a solved well problem. However, using the native pages is about as bad an approach as you can imagine.01:43
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chxwind.ca!02:07
chxzakkkkm: hi02:07
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zakkkkmchx: hey!02:08
chxzakkkkm: i am also on Wind02:08
zakkkkmchx: nice :)02:08
zakkkkmi got the $40 unlimited back in december :)02:08
chxzakkkkm: what are your experiences?02:08
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zakkkkmHad it since like August.. perfect02:08
zakkkkmi did 38GB bw one month.. no throttle.02:08
zakkkkmI live in Toronto, so there isnt signal problems.02:09
chxah Toronto02:09
chxI live on the wild west ;)02:09
zakkkkmheh02:09
zakkkkmout of city have some signal problems on Wind it seems.02:09
zakkkkmI love it though.02:09
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chxzakkkkm: i have a $45 winter wonder plan02:11
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chxzakkkkm: the miracle plans are better but this is not too bad either02:13
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zakkkkmchx: sorry, had to go down and get pizza02:20
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chxzakkkkm: my only grief is that the laptop plans cant be combined with voice so we are stuck with port block02:20
zakkkkmi currently use my n900 to tether to my desktop02:21
zakkkkmthe laptop plans dont have port blocking?!02:21
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chxno they dont02:22
chxit's a different AP02:22
zakkkkmhttp://www2.windmobile.ca/en/Pages/data-plans.aspx is really cheap at $29 , with free data stick02:22
zakkkkmthinking of it.02:22
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chxwe use internet.windmobile.ca but it's broadband.windmobile.ca02:22
chxyeah they discounted that plan02:22
zakkkkmhate always having to tether02:22
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zakkkkmbut yeah, wind is awesome02:25
chxi found it a bit flaky02:25
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zakkkkmgot the unlimited everything back in december for $40 a month.. dont have to worry about anything02:25
zakkkkmprepaid too02:25
chxi found fido a lot more stable for tether ( i have the iphone data plan , 6g for $30 not bad at all) but it's not AWS02:26
zakkkkmthanks to Wind, i bought the N900 heh02:26
zakkkkmwhich iphone?02:26
chxyeah Wind enabled us that02:26
chxjust iphone data plan02:27
zakkkkmyou know you change to 1400 MTU?02:27
chxi wouldnt touch the iphone with a ten feet barge pole02:27
zakkkkmwhen tethering02:27
chxno02:27
chxtell me more02:27
zakkkkmheh02:27
zakkkkmthats why your network is flaky02:27
zakkkkmit stops at like 29mb download eh?02:27
zakkkkmcant even finish a download?02:27
chxeh02:28
zakkkkmright?02:28
chxright :(02:28
zakkkkmaha02:28
zakkkkmyou have to change your mtu to 140002:28
zakkkkmby default the packet size is wrong.02:28
zakkkkmfor some reason Wind changed it.. mobilicity did too02:28
chxlet me see02:29
zakkkkmso eventually the download will end.. result of it being wrong..huge technical reason fo rit02:29
zakkkkmsimple change .. " ifconfig DEVICE(probably ppp0)  mtu 1400"02:29
zakkkkmin my case its ifconfig ppp0 mtu 140002:29
zakkkkmand bam, perfect tether02:29
chxApr  7 00:49:21 veyron pppd[17455]: rcvd [LCP ConfReq id=0x0 <auth pap> <mru 1500> <asyncmap 0xa0000>]02:29
chxthat's wrong, right?02:29
zakkkkmtheres your problem :)02:29
zakkkkmrun ifconfig find the device02:30
chxright, next time it'll be fine, i am on Shaw right now, the N900 is just fallback02:30
zakkkkmif for instance its ppp0 ... do ifconfig ppp0 mtu 1400 ( as root, so probably sudo  )02:30
chxi fixed /etc/ppp/options on the laptop02:30
chxno need to change every time, there is an mtu02:30
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zakkkkmso yeah, should be perfect now :)02:31
zakkkkmwow time goes fast, should be getting ready for work soon02:31
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Clmbrhi all06:02
Clmbrany able to help me...Ever since I've installed audio boost, it takes about 4-5 rings to bring up the phone inteface-then the volume increase and I can answer the call if voice mails doesn't pick up or the part hangs up =/06:04
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ProteousI've never used audio boost06:09
Proteousdid you try uninstalling it?06:09
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Clmbrnah i will likly end up do so though.06:11
Clmbrty for reply.06:12
ProteousI had a bad experience with an EQ app I tried06:13
Proteousa while back. made the audio pop and use a lot of CPU06:13
Clmbruggg, i would be upset =/....I work around loud machinery and chainsaws and I really enjoy the audio boost but seems buggy, so if i'm unable to answer my calls thats a bigger issue.06:17
Proteousyeah, disrupting phone functionality is no good06:18
Proteousmaybe try some headphones/earbuds that block out noise better06:18
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ZogGProteous зштп06:20
ZogGping06:20
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Proteoussure06:23
Proteousзштп06:23
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ZogGProteous, i think i talked to you a lot of time ago06:33
Proteouscould be06:33
ZogGyou said you barely here, we talked about port of some java app06:33
ZogGcould it be you?06:33
Proteousprobably not me06:33
ProteousI hate java06:33
Proteous:P06:33
ZogG=)06:34
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FIQ|n900huh...09:44
FIQ|n900Ok, one time I mis-typed a number with SMS: "07xyyyyyyy" in which x is incorrect and y correct.09:45
FIQ|n900For some reason, my original conversation with the person opened, and I though the number was correct09:45
FIQ|n900What the...?09:45
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ruskieerm...09:51
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ruskiemaybe it mind read it?09:51
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pupnik_http://www.techamok.com/?pid=8898   US Circuit Court upholds warrantless siezure (theft) of laptops for travellers entering USA09:58
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ruskiewhy is that even a surprise?10:01
ruskiegenerally you're not in any country while traveling across borders(i.e. a bit of no-mans land there)...10:01
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pupnik_It is a violation of the law10:02
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ruskiewhat law exactly? there is no law where there is no country to impose it10:02
yaccFIQ|n900, the reason is that Nokias and not only the N900, have been doing a suffix match for phonenumbers since the beginning of time => the reason is that a number xxxxxx can be signaled with different prefixes, e.g. 0, 0CC 00CC, +CC with CC being the country prefix.10:02
ruskiehint hint... no-mans land10:02
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yaccpupnik_, actually not really, while entering/exiting a country customs official have been having a free hand since ever, ...10:03
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yaccpupnik_, not that it does not suck, ...10:05
pupnik_yacc: that is an illegal, unconstitutional act10:05
ruskieyes human rights should be respected... but generally you have no rights on borders10:05
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yaccpupnik_, it's just the logical conclusion what would happen if you tried to transport a closed safe without the possibility to open it => if the border guards would notice that, they'd keep it for secondary inspection too :(10:07
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yaccpupnik_, it's no wonder that it has been standard business procedure for a couple of years to give a cleanly imaged laptop to business travelers to the US, if travel to the US is unavoidable (nobody sane liked to travel to communistic police states, and nobody likes to travel to a "war on terrorism" police state like the US)10:09
pupnik_ahh that's good policy10:10
yaccpupnik_, warrentless searches, check (the FBI agent just needs to have imagined that it might be terrorism or national security related)10:10
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yaccpupnik_, warrentless unspecified jail terms being kept without communication, check (see above)10:11
ruskieyacc, or "think of the children" related10:11
yaccpupnik_, warrentless data searches, check (see SWIFT, which is explicitly illegal by EU standards, but is tolerated by EU politician exactly because of that, the US is doing the dirty data searches that they couldn't get their hands on for them, ...)10:12
pupnik_i didn't know that ty10:13
ruskieactually swift and passangare data sharing has been on the kicking front recently10:13
ruskieI recall some news about it10:13
pupnik_it's absolutely ridiculous of some people to assert that data-privacy is not a goal of FOSS10:14
yaccruskie, yeah, if terrorism does not cut it, kiddie porn (hint: no really hard definition for that, you know, the exact definition varies from country to country, e.g. if you are unlucky, a photograph of your wife and your kids playing in the bath tub can get you that sexual predator stamp) is always a good explanation why a common human has no rights ;)10:14
pupnik_personal decision of what happens with your data and code is at the core of open source philosophy10:14
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jacekowskiyacc: i just use truecrypt when crossing borders10:15
yaccruskie, yeah, since the last round of EU treaties, the EU parliament has to much to say => and these are 732 or so potential trouble makers ;)10:15
pupnik_Elop needs to be physically banned from finland.10:15
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jacekowskiyacc: it takes only 3h to encrypt/decrypt whole disk10:16
yaccjacekowski, than hope that you don't cross into the UK. They'll ask you nice for your encryption key, and if you say no (whatever) lookup you up for 5 years ;)10:16
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jacekowskiyacc: as far as i know they can only send you do prison for not giving up encryption keys if you are convicted of another crime at the same time ( related to reason why you were asked to give up your keys )10:17
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yaccjacekowski, I do not use any hdd without LUKS on it, only exception being vfat formated (usually flash) mass storage device that is used to exchange data.10:17
ruskieyacc, actually the parliament so far has done more proper things10:18
yaccjacekowski, not really, they just need to claim that they saw suspicious images on the device before you shutdown, and if you do not hand over the keys you will be getting sentenced for that, because they cannot sentence you for kiddie porn, or even check if you are guilty.10:18
ruskieif I ever had a need to travel anywhere I'd bring a clean slate system with me and simply grab any data I need over an encrytped channel over the network later10:19
yaccruskie, only because the lobbying influences have not yet recalibrated for the fact the the parliament does have teeth now, ...10:19
yaccruskie, congrats, you just figured it out ;)10:19
ruskieyacc, well lobbying so far failed for patent reform...10:19
ruskieyacc, ???10:19
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ruskiethat has always been my plan... clean slate system and grab any data later10:20
ruskieeven when it was a bit safer10:20
yaccruskie, as I said, the EU parliament had for decades only very limited rights. The perfect place to park idealistic politicians that are incapable of being day-to-day pragmatic, ...10:20
ruskieand the EU commision is???10:20
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yaccFull of pragmatic day-to-day politicians that do not give any thought to human rights, what is right or wrong, they only represent the pragmatic concerns of their governments, ...10:21
ruskieactually they don't10:21
ruskiethey represent the pragmatic concerns of their parties10:22
ruskieif they actually represented the pragmatic concerns of their governments I'd be more worried10:22
ruskienot to mention the system would be stagnating to infinity...10:23
yaccThe EU parliament => not really, not yet, because of it's decade long impotence, it was a parking place for inconvinient politicians for a long time, nice benefits, no relevance (as in minimal national exposure to press), perfect, ...10:23
ruskiebecause various governments at the best of times have problems cooperating on the most mundane levels10:23
yaccruskie, welcome to EU politics, ...10:23
ruskieI guess it depends on the gov10:24
ruskiebut around here we generally voted for who goes there and rarely were these people inconvienences on tho national level10:24
yaccruskie, well yes and no, the EU has been a consensual "government elite" project for decades, ...10:24
yaccruskie, here is where?10:24
ruskieslovenia10:24
ruskie<-- is on EU sceptic10:24
ruskieerm an10:24
yaccWell, inconviences is the wrong word perhaps, but the fact is that any politician that moves to some EU position becomes near irrelevant nationally, ...10:25
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ruskieconsidering how relevant the national ones are...10:26
ruskieit doesn't really change much around here10:26
ruskiewe have a total crop gov currently...(and didn't do much better before)...10:26
yaccruskie, no idea if I'm a fan or a sceptic => I'm much like this brit PM during WWII, the EU is a bad thing, but name me a better plan, ...10:26
ruskietransitioning from communism to capitalism... free-for-alls etc...10:27
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pupnik_yacc: there are competing visions for the EU.  One is a freemarket zone, the other is a central planned economy.  Both can be called 'European Union'10:27
yaccFact is that the EU national states are way to tiny on a global scale to be bothered with, ...10:27
ruskiecurrently we have a capitalists wet dream... no oversight, no sanctions, useless judical system, and bansk willing to give out lots of money for "privatization"10:28
ruskieyacc, I would call you a sceptic... it's a bad thing but there is nothing better(yet)...10:29
yaccWell, actually what you mean is probably more like a fully integrated economy, and that's the one that makes sense, but then I've been by design anti-nationalistic for my whole life, I do not tend to cheer for my national sport teams and having worked and traveled in a couple of places, I tend to see both sides of the coin in many cases.10:29
ruskieI don't much care for national intresets myself10:29
yaccE.g. going to school in France was fascinating, they have quite a different view of history than say Austrians/Germans ;)10:29
ruskieeverybody and their dog has a different view on history10:30
yaccruskie, naturally, but most people do not realize that ;)10:30
ruskieI can ask 5 people around me what they thought about Josip Broz Tito and each will give me a completly different answer...10:30
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yaccruskie, well, in your case it's a special case, because it's to personal to many people, and most of these people have lived with Tito to with direct consequences of Tito, ...10:31
ruskieI prefer to just consider everything false until I can review it myself and even then will doubt it as an actual truth10:31
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ruskieor the german/italian occupation of slovenia during wwII etc...10:32
yaccWell, I tend to have a non-monotone view of the world, ...10:32
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ruskiesame here10:33
yaccruskie, well, without being a revisionist, you have to realize that the good guys in the WWII e.g. the US, have been nearly as rassistic as the Nazis (e.g. I wouldn't want to be a Nigger in the 30s or 40s in the US, where a white murding a Nigger got a slap on the hand at best, ...)10:34
ruskieagreed10:34
yaccAnd one big concept that I live with is look at what they do and not what they talk => it's very hard to identify the good guys nowadays is you hide their names. E.g. the US (but also other western governments) are very hard to identify as the good guys if you try to analyze them by what they do, and declare Axioms like "they are good because they are the US/UK/France/Germany/EU/Nato" invalid, ...10:36
ruskieto true...10:37
yaccAnyway, I'll try to get myself identified as the clean guy, so bbl, the shower is calling me ;)10:38
pupnik_cheers10:38
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ruskiethe: One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter always comes to mind10:38
jo-erlendhelp! I accidentally pressed lock phone instead of the keyboard and screen lock. And I don't remember the password. I have root ssh access. How do I fix this?10:39
ruskieyou don't remember it? and it isn't toe default?10:39
ruskieerm the10:39
jo-erlendperhaps there is a default password?10:39
ruskie1234510:39
ruskieshould be the default if you never set it10:39
ruskieelse see talk.maemo.org10:39
ruskiethere's a thread on how to reset it10:39
ruskieiirc lock code reset or something like that should find the thread10:40
jo-erlendah I remembered it once I knew it was five numbers long. Thanks :)10:40
ruskieyw10:40
jo-erlendcause it can't be longer or shorter than that?10:40
ruskienot sure10:40
ruskieI would assume it could be shorter10:41
ruskieor longer... but not sure10:41
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nealICD2 sends a "scan_sig" message when network scan data is available.  What are all the possible values of NETWORK_TYPE parameter.  I know that it can take the values WLAN_INFRA, WLAN_ADHOC and GPRS.  Are there any others?11:04
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yaccReading the lock code reset thread one gets the impression that quite a bit of N900 buyers are not exactly old linux hackers, ...11:15
ruskiewhy?11:15
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yaccAnd that these duffus would greatly benefit from somebody setting a simple CGI script somewhere that runs jack the ripper for the lock code, ...11:16
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MohammadAGimporting files in QML is meh11:18
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MohammadAGalterego, do extra components have to be in a folder?11:25
MohammadAGusing import "Slider.qml" throws an error, but Slider.qml exists11:25
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crashanddieyou have to love the display of self destruct that Nokia has been demonstrating11:36
ruskieyou mean it wasn't doing so since a long time ago?11:37
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alteregoMohammadAG: you don't have to import. Just use Slider {} and it loads the .qml file automagically.11:43
alteregoimporting is for .js files and modules.11:43
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MohammadAGalterego, oh, thanks11:50
jo-erlendcrashanddie: I don't love it at all. It's like a train wreck. You can't look away, but if you consider all the passengers and their lives, it's really quite sad.11:53
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crashanddieI think it's endlessly entertaining11:54
jo-erlendand that's what we call schadenfreude.11:55
crashanddieindeed11:55
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pupnik< yacc> Reading the lock code reset thread one gets the impression that quite a   <<< this is a sign of success of N900 / maemo511:58
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pupnikit's precisely the success of the talented folks at nokia to make a 'phone based on linux' that appeals to people who don't primarily buy it as a linux device11:59
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MohammadAGalterego, shouldn't an anchor lock an item in place?12:15
alteregoMohammadAG: depends if the item it's anchored to is locked.12:16
MohammadAGalterego, http://i55.tinypic.com/jts8jm.jpg12:17
MohammadAGduration text should be anchored to the end of the slider, but it seems to be way off12:17
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alteregoCan I see the Qml for that.12:19
alteregoOh wait, you're using the editor.12:19
alteregoInteresting12:19
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MohammadAGactually using the raw editor for the most part, just checking anchors with the GUI one12:20
alteregoWell, let me see the qml then :)12:21
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MohammadAGhttp://pastebin.com/gYmxkx9W12:21
MohammadAGSlider.qml would be http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt-mobility-snapshot/declarative-location-flickr-flickrcommon-slider-qml.html :P12:22
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alteregoWell, that's easy12:26
alteregoYou need to change the anchors in songPositionText12:26
alteregoanchors.right: slider.right12:26
alteregoand remove anchors.rightMargin12:27
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MohammadAGheh, the designer's crap12:32
DocScrutinizer~moo12:32
* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass12:32
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alteregoMohammadAG: I never use it, but it does have indicators for the anchor points which maybe you should pay better attention too :P12:33
MohammadAGalterego, actually, I did, those are what set it to left :P12:33
alterego(close your ears DocScrutinizer)12:34
alteregoMohammadAG: submit a bug report? :D12:34
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MohammadAGLOL12:37
MohammadAGalterego, can't, I'm using some ancient old version12:37
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MohammadAGso it might've been fixed, but since packaging is back in Qt Creator, I stopped updating :P12:37
alteregoIt's okay, I wasn't serious :P12:37
MohammadAGalterego, there's no way to use QSlider in QML right?12:38
alteregoWell, there is12:38
alteregoBut it's not great.12:38
alteregoBinding QWidgets into Qml is fiddly :P12:38
MohammadAGneither is the slider I'm currently using12:39
MohammadAGI need to change the range a lot12:39
alteregoMake it better?12:39
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thomastpis there a way to see what's currently building in the fremantle build queue ?12:40
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pupnik"In Germany, under the law, everything is prohibited,e xcept that which is permitted."  -- Newton Minow13:42
ZogGpup`ping13:42
ZogGpupnik, ping*13:43
ZogGpupnik, http://www.8bitpeoples.com/discography/13:43
ZogGi remember you loved pornophonique13:43
ruskiepupnik, I thought that was more or less all european juristdictions... with the exception of the UK(where it is the reverse)13:44
pupnikpretty crazy13:45
thomastpis there a way to see what's currently building in the fremantle build queue ?13:45
ruskiepupnik, the EU law also works the same13:45
ZogGall laws work the same13:46
ZogGeven in soviet russia13:46
ZogGas we say "the unknowing of law doesn't release guilty from punishment"13:47
ruskieZogG, wrong13:47
ZogGotherwise i can kill and than prove i did know i can't13:48
MohammadAGalterego, is it possible to emit a signal from QML with a parameter?13:48
ZogGruskie say who?13:48
MohammadAGbasically, I want to emit valueChanged(int)'s equivalent13:48
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MohammadAGso I could tie it to C++ code13:48
ruskiethere are 2 general approaches to lawmaking... one is everything is permited EXCEPT the stuff that is forbidden(UK and USA have this approach) and the other is everything is forbidden EXCEPT stuff that is permited(most of the EU has this)...13:49
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ruskiethe end result is the same generally13:49
pupnik:)13:49
pupnikdon't piss off pppl with power13:49
ruskiealso how the law is interpreted in court also plays a role13:50
ruskieyou have common law jurisdictions(UK, USA) and Civil law(most of the world)13:50
ruskieCivil law - a court will reinterpret the law each time for each case with minimal reliance on previous cases and interpretations13:51
ruskieso two people accused of the same thing can get widely different results13:51
LjLdo you have some hint about an N810 that's decided to reboot-loop forever? its internal disk was quite possibly full, and also, a few non-standard things were installed. is reflashing my only option?13:51
ruskieCommon law - a court will take into account previous rullings and only rarely reinterpret(the specifics of the case should be different to do so generally)13:52
ruskieno I'm not a lawyer/paralegal or anything like that... but I did research this stuff a lot a while ago as I find it interesting...13:53
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ruskieof course those are just the top most overlays... it gets subdivided with common influences...13:54
ruskieanyway OT... so enough on this topic13:55
alteregoMohammadAG: yes, :)13:55
MohammadAGalterego, any pointers? :)13:56
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MohammadAGall I could find is connecting a signal with no parameters to Qt/C++13:57
ZogGruskie, the origin is actually "не знание закона, не освобождает ответствености"13:58
ruskieZogG, refering to that quote you mean?13:59
ruskieI'm not arguing that really13:59
ZogGi mean original quote and not my translation13:59
ZogGruskie =*14:00
alteregoMohammadAG: have you got: signal mySignal(int) in your qml?14:00
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MohammadAGalterego, oh, so it can hold ints?14:00
alteregoMohammadAG: then when you emit the signal do: comp.mySignal(10)14:00
alteregoor whatever14:00
MohammadAGfile:///home/mohammad/mediaplayer/entertainmentview.qml:12:34: Expected token `identifier'14:01
MohammadAG         signal sliderValueChanged(int);14:01
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alteregoMohammadAG: sorry: signal mySignal(int paramName)14:04
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MohammadAGalterego, cool, thanks :D14:09
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alteregoMohammadAG: you have to specify a name so you can do: onMySignal: something.text = value14:09
alteregowhere value is the named param14:10
alteregoSaves you using function binding.14:10
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MohammadAGalterego, already got it, I'll have to check if the slider's down and not emit the signal then though14:10
MohammadAGI'm assuming MouseArea can handle that...14:11
alteregoAnyhow, I'll bbl14:11
alteregoYeah should do14:11
alteregobbl14:11
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lardmanAnyone spotted that the French operation in Libya is called Harmattan?14:37
alteregoHeh14:37
lardmanhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-1283174314:38
MohammadAGlardman, that's not a coincidence14:39
MohammadAG:P14:39
lardmanwell no, it's fitting14:39
alteregoDoes that mean they're all using N950s?14:41
lardman:)14:41
alteregoYay, bus is here14:42
lardmanoh dear: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-1301210814:42
lardmanattack by loofah, escape!14:42
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MohammadAGalterego, if I have a MouseArea over the slider then all input to it is blocked15:08
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pupnikwheee my inventory looks decent now15:13
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mecewow! Now that is a nice rendering: http://raph.com/3dartists/artgallery/6764.jpg :D15:24
ruskiehmm that magazine is of slovenian origins15:26
mece:)15:26
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mececannonfodder was great, but incredibly frustrating at times.15:26
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alteregoMohammadAG: yeah, probably :)15:28
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: those concepts always work on same principle. The first/most-upper object gets the event, looks at it and processes/ignores it, then exits by passing back either the 'cooked' even or a flag if the event got 'swallowed'. If this flag is not set, the outer control structure shall pass on event to next layer in handler stack15:38
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Venemotimeless_w7ip, could you please gimme the bug to that bugreport that you've shown us yesterday? about the example that deletes an object before using it.16:00
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Venemotimeless_w7ip, sorry. I meant, could you pleas gimme the link*16:01
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DocScrutinizerhttps://bugs.meego.com/attachment.cgi?id=524316:08
DocScrutinizeryou'd also find that in http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-04-07.log.html16:09
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GAN900"I know today is a deadline, but I wont be receiving any calls or texts. I should probably tell you, but I wouldn't want to be a bother." -My N90016:12
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VenemoGAN900, :(16:15
VenemoDocScrutinizer, thx16:15
VenemoDocScrutinizer, what's the bugzilla excercise to get into the bug itself?16:15
VenemoDocScrutinizer, nevermind, I check the logs16:16
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stef_204hi, using N900 with Maemo 5, v 20.2010.36-2. Just wondering if anyone know is there is a way to reconfigure email client to use smaller fonts by default when composing16:17
stef_204seems that once you config email client on 1st time u use it, can't reconfig the default.  Or is it me?16:18
DocScrutinizerVenemo: append &action=edit16:18
DocScrutinizerVenemo: to url16:18
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, found it! but thanks :)16:18
DocScrutinizeryw16:18
stef_204Also, it insists on downloading all attachments regardless of whether one selects the email, etc. Is that configurable as well?16:19
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DocScrutinizerstef_204: modest (the mail client) is rather useless. So if in doubt about a feature, the answer usually is "not supported"16:20
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stef_204DocScrutinizer: I agree.  I can't find another good email client to install that will really work16:21
stef_204I tried Claws but can't really see the entire interface, and one o 2 others but same: they are from the dev mirror (if I recall) and do not seem to be ready for "mainstream" use16:22
DocScrutinizernobody bothered to create a finger friendly MUA that has all the functions you'd like to see16:22
stef_204any suggestions for a good alternative email client (IMAO)?16:22
stef_204*(IMAP)16:22
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DocScrutinizersorry, no idea. I never felt like doing real email shoveling on N90016:23
stef_204I use it when I am on marketing or business trips16:23
stef_204really important to me16:23
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DocScrutinizerpossibly a web client is the best option16:23
stef_204I'll continue trial and error I guess16:23
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stef_204DocScrutinizer: Webmail is a PITA on the n900, if u ask me... :)16:24
DocScrutinizernever tried it16:24
VenemoDocScrutinizer, thanks for finding this for me. It gave the Fedora QA folks a nice laugh :D16:24
DocScrutinizerI just know I go "MEH" and close modest when I see 27 unread spam mails in the list and don't see any option "mark all as read"16:25
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, "mark all as read" is something I've been missing too16:27
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stef_204that and other bandwidth hogs like huge PDF attachments, etc., that get downloaded automatically using up my bandwidth allocation on my cell plan16:29
stef_204Modest is a good start; it works but just missing features IMHO16:29
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DocScrutinizeryep, a lot of missing features16:32
DocScrutinizerplus a few bugs16:32
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DocScrutinizere.g the missing option to NOT display the HTML part of multipart/mixed msgs is clearly a bug16:34
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DocScrutinizerdunno if the bug of embedded attachements in multipart/mixed not showing is already fixed. Guess not16:35
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DocScrutinizerI'd need to ask my friend to send me a test msgs from his iPhone to check. YUCK16:36
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* DocScrutinizer takes the opportunity to rant about apple: some time ago I've seen "XML" there, like <config><key>key1</key><value>value1</value><key>key2</key><value>value2</value></config> - what a fsckdup idea of XML is *that*?!16:41
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jaskayes, crapple property list in xml format.. abomination16:44
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inzDoc, that looks almost like some things from thedailywtf, although they've had much worse snippets too16:46
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DocScrutinizerdamn, how hard is it to get the idea of a strucured dataset?16:48
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DocScrutinizer<config><key><name>key1</name><value>value1</value></key><key><name>key2</name><value>value2</value></key></config>16:50
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, that's ridiculous xml... the second version is quite sane though.16:52
Venemoand oh DocScrutinizer, did you know that Gnome has listened to your opinion and dumped GConf?16:53
DocScrutinizerthe second version is a 5sec take I made up in a try to fix the first crappy version invented by apple16:53
DocScrutinizeryep, I know. They got something even worse now I gathered16:54
Venemonope16:54
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Venemothey got something that actually performs well, called DConf16:54
DocScrutinizerD like Distributed? that sounds nice16:54
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Venemodunno what it stands for16:55
DocScrutinizereach app responsible for their own config, and offering dbus interface so other apps can get to know about changes or change settings. Sounds semi-sane16:55
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DocScrutinizerif that's the concept16:55
DocScrutinizerthat's how I'd design such a thing16:55
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Venemohowever, they haven't managed to port all their stuff away from GConf, so I now end up having both...16:56
DocScrutinizerLOL16:56
DocScrutinizerat least my concept would allow to actually backup/move/copy an app *with complete settings* which could live in a config file in the app's working directory, as usual16:59
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, so there's a new g spell, called 'gsettings' now :P16:59
DocScrutinizeran app could work even if there's no dbus at all on system, compare that to a system missing gconfd17:00
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E0xspell.. that remember my days of sourcemage ( linux distro )17:00
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Venemoyea17:00
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BigWookie:X i've got a very stupid question17:01
BigWookieanyone can get me a bin of tar?17:01
DocScrutinizershoot17:01
DocScrutinizererr17:01
BigWookieit seems i accidentially removed busybox17:01
DocScrutinizerouch17:01
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BigWookieand dpkg relys on tar17:02
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DocScrutinizerumm17:02
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VenemoBigWookie, apt-get install --reinstall busybox?17:03
DocScrutinizerhow would you install that binary on N900?17:03
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BigWookiewget -O /bin17:04
DocScrutinizerBigWookie: without messybox you can't boot, can't mv or cp or chmod or any other cmd17:04
BigWookieand apt-get won't work anymore17:04
BigWookieDocScrutinizer: it is running right now17:04
DocScrutinizeryay17:04
BigWookiebest would be the whole /bin dir17:04
DocScrutinizerunerase busybox?17:05
BigWookienot possible17:06
BigWookieas I said dpkg won't work17:06
DocScrutinizermc17:06
DocScrutinizerafaik it has a rudimentary unerase function17:06
BigWookiemc is not installed17:06
DocScrutinizer:-S17:06
BigWookieif sbd could upload me his /bin dir i could unpack it on my desktop and scp it to /bin17:07
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DocScrutinizerwell, you shall get a tar binary17:07
E0xhttp://asui.garage.maemo.org/_screenshots/keypad_2-landscape.png <-- advanced-systemui change the lock screen ?17:07
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merlin1991X-Fade: ping17:08
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DocScrutinizerBigWookie: you got a /query !17:13
DocScrutinizermeh17:14
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LjLdo you have some hint about an N810 that's decided to reboot-loop forever? its internal disk was quite possibly full, and also, a few non-standard things were installed. is reflashing my only option?17:20
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DocScrutinizerI can't see a better option17:21
DocScrutinizeryou *could* try to get a shell in initrd, and then clean the / on NAND17:22
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DocScrutinizerdunno how to accomplish that though17:23
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DocScrutinizero/ bbl17:23
LjLperhaps there is a way to go into R&D mode without flashing? i have a feeling it's the watchdog that's killing the system, and i've read R&D disables that17:23
DocScrutinizeryou can set R6D without actually flashing. flasher has an option for that17:25
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DocScrutinizer./flasher-3.5 --set-rd no-omap-wd no-ext-wd no-lifeguard-reset --enable-rd-mode17:34
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DocScrutinizerthe no-lifeguard-reset probably the most promising, aiui it will keep dsme from rebooting device on any of the monitored processes quitting ungracefully17:36
BigWookie/wc/wc17:36
BigWookiesry, and by xD17:36
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* DocScrutinizer recalls "houston, we got a problem" after 50 reboots :-P17:37
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Psiwhile i like that there is someone out there working on espeak, having new versions put out every few days is getting a bit rediculous17:56
alteregoJust implemented waypoint projection17:56
alteregoFast and nasty method (tm)17:56
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rm_workPsi: gotta love fast development! learn to enjoy getting features/bugfixes every couple of days :P18:57
rm_workwhen I was working actively on ABL, I was pushing a new version every day or two as well18:57
rm_workah, those were the days...18:57
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dashavooThis is a bit of a premature question, as being as my phone is still broken, but anyone know of a way I can make it so that when I am sent a message from one number, pressing reply fills in another?19:19
dashavoobah, my mind isn't picturing things properly (this happens when your N900 is broken for weeks)19:20
dashavoobasically, I don't want to have to switch conversations to reply to a different number19:21
slonopotamusthat doesn't make sense19:22
slonopotamusyou reply to sender19:22
dashavooslonopotamus: my friend has two numbers. She texts me from her German number, because it is cheaper, and I reply to her UK number, because it is cheaper19:23
dashavoobut I often forget to switch conversations, and end up paying a stupid amount of money for an sms19:23
slonopotamuscrazy world19:25
ZogGslonopotamus how is gentoo on n800?19:25
* slonopotamus uses unlimited 3g for both him and his wife and texts via jabber with fixed monthly payment :P19:26
* DocScrutinizer wonders if two numbers under one contact result in one conversation thread or two19:26
dashavooDocScrutinizer: two19:26
slonopotamusdashavoo: i doubt you can do that, kinda exotic usecase19:26
DocScrutinizer:-S19:26
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dashavooslonopotamus: thought so... I might write a script to intercept the message and change the number or something... when my phone comes back19:27
DocScrutinizernah, that's definitely a long blamed flaw in maemo contacts management that you don't know about which number it's been of those 3 that are stored to that particular contact19:28
DocScrutinizeractually the usecase you get called from mobile number of your friend but you want to call back on his homezone number isn't that unusual at all19:28
DocScrutinizeras it is now, you have to call back to see which number it's actually been that he used to call you19:29
slonopotamusZogG: works for my needs, though with kinda slow graphics rendering. planning to try modern kernel this weekend. also, kde-4.6 should go stable soon, it has some new shiny tablet ui19:29
dashavooDocScrutinizer: it is pretty silly19:30
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dashavooand frustrating :P19:30
dashavooanyway, home time :)19:30
dashavooBBQ this evening. Such lovely weather :)19:30
dashavoohave a good weekend everyone19:30
ZogGslonopotamus kde? srsly? maybe you should try unity or something?19:31
DocScrutinizerthere's been a ticket for that and everybody hoped thy'd fix it in PR1.219:31
DocScrutinizernow we got PR1.3 and it's still broken19:32
slonopotamusZogG: gtk apps have big troubles fitting into 480px-high screen19:32
ZogGslonopotamus and kde?19:32
slonopotamusi only found a couple of systemsettings tabs that didn't fit.19:33
ZogGslonopotamus and if you just use hildon ? and go with maemo original src of packages for ebuilds?19:33
slonopotamusZogG: hildon learned to work with unpatched gtk?19:33
slonopotamusZogG: haven't looked that way, actually19:34
ZogGyou can use same paatches, why not?19:34
slonopotamusthough i heard someone was writing ebuilds for hildon gui19:34
ZogGor you can use qildon or any hildon forks you can find19:34
ZogGthough qildon is not finished as i know19:34
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ZogGnice19:35
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* slonopotamus wonders why ubuntu samba segfaults here and there (running visual studio on samba share) but gentoo doesn't.19:36
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slonopotamusZogG: wrt unity: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/UnityHardwareRequirements19:38
slonopotamus1gb ram? are they kidding?19:38
ZogGhttp://gitorious.org/qildon19:39
slonopotamusalso, according to that page, it has a strong dependency on opengl19:39
slonopotamusalso, according to that page, arm is not supported19:41
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ZogGslonopotamus qildon? it was written for n900 i assume19:44
ZogGslonopotamus can you give me some screenies for gentoo-ru chan please =)19:44
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slonopotamusZogG: later, no wifi here so can't upload from n80019:45
slonopotamusZogG: they'll just show kde running at 800x480 :)19:46
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ZogGslonopotamus any drivers that don't work properly?19:47
ZogGas i saw sound problem is solved19:48
slonopotamusZogG: i haven't tried camera. wifi, bluetooth, sound - everything works19:48
ZogGslonopotamus camera you can try with player just check if you have video0 device or something19:49
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slonopotamusfunnily, qt raster is faster than xrender on n80019:54
slonopotamusZogG: yes, i have /dev/video019:56
ZogGslonopotamus than mplayer /dev/video019:57
ZogGmplayer -fps 15 tv:// -tv driver=v4l2:device=/dev/video019:57
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ZogGthough i don't know if you have v4l2 in kernel19:57
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slonopotamusZogG: meh, no mplayer :) later. but i see no reasons why it shouldn't work19:59
ArkanoiD-scud batteries appear to be exactly that good.19:59
ZogGslonopotamus btw how is compiling thing? does it takes hours and is it slow?19:59
slonopotamusZogG: i compile in qemu-user chroot on shiny new phenom x6 :)20:00
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slonopotamusZogG: on device itself - somewhat slow, yes. gcc builds in 12h20:01
ZogGдщд20:01
ZogGlol20:01
ZogGso you build into packages?20:02
slonopotamusyep, build binpkgs in chroot and then install them on device20:02
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mookiehi folks, is something bad going to happen if I change the partition label of eMMC from Nokia N900 to n900?20:15
jacekowskino20:16
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ZogGmookie eveyone goona di20:22
ZogGdie*20:22
mookieZogG: i thought so20:23
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DocScrutinizerZogG: дщд تربية الإبل20:25
ZogGDocScrutinizer what?20:25
ZogGдщд = lol20:25
ZogGother i don't get20:26
DocScrutinizeryou don't want to know ;-P20:26
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DocScrutinizerZogG: you're sick? no fighting, no "Doc, the evil German, wants to kill me"...20:40
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DocScrutinizerZogG: I'm worried20:41
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DocScrutinizer~attack ZogG20:43
* infobot grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing ZogG20:43
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slonopotamus:D20:44
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pupniknew client pulls 470 mA when running without sdl_delay() :D21:09
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mookiewill, (parted) name 1 "n900" change partition label, or i should use mklabel msdos and if yes is data going to be usable? becouse of this http://www.gnu.org/software/parted/manual/html_chapter/parted_toc.html#TOC1621:10
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nox-moin21:46
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inkbottleI've been doing "ssh -X" on my n900; then I've launched mplayer from command line (on the distant pc); works fine but for one thing: I have no sound (just like http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=19063)22:10
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inkbottlefrom http://wiki.maemo.org/Remote_desktop, evrything should work seamlessly. So I don't see what i'm doing wrong22:12
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ShadowJKyou don't get sound piped to n900 with just -X22:19
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pupnikhee22:20
pupnikhow much cpu does screen recorder use?22:21
SpeedEvilQuite a lot, if I recall right.22:21
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inkbottleShadowJK: really, what should I do to get sound?22:22
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inkbottleShadowJK: I'm reading about it, I was sure it should have worked :-)22:24
mer_geI don't get a keyboard on graphical stuff when I do "ssh -X" from my N900.22:25
mer_geI seem to have problems with locales22:25
mer_geDoes anyone have something to read about that?22:25
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inkbottleShadowJK: thanks for your help, I'll try and see later how i can have sound too22:34
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mer_gein fact I get a keyboard in gedit for example because it falls back to a default locale.22:35
mer_geBut when I start nx-client from nomachine on the remote machine, I get: "Qt: Locales not supported on X server"22:35
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pupnikanybody doing oprofile stuff on n90022:39
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alteregoI added debug traces to every function call in Columbus today.22:55
alteregoAnd it's actually really good I did :D22:56
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LuisCarlosHi everybody. I own a n900. One I changed a timer to avoid HAM to check for updates, however, I can not find that tutorial.22:57
pupnikbier her! bier her! oder ich fall um jocheh!22:57
LuisCarlosWhen I'm in 2.5G, it gets too slow, because HAM is looking for updates.22:58
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tank-mana good laugh -> http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html23:24
tank-mana 500GB external usb drive that is really a usb stick23:24
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phaphelooo23:27
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tank-manhi23:28
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phapanyone want to tell me some good news?23:30
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keriophap: you're alive23:33
kerioprobably23:33
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phap:-) thx23:35
phapI'm just reading the news...23:36
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macmaN:sp23:47
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