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| flexxxv | hey, I just wanted to try the tacile feedback option from cssu, but nothing changes? (I enabled it in the condif file and installed tactile and killed hildon-desktop / did restart) the rest is working. what exactly is tactile feedback? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| GAN900 | Proteous, I vote V. | 00:01 |
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| flexxxv | nevermind. it is working | 00:03 |
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| Proteous | V, pfffff | 00:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | <yawn> | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | what's up with elections? | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | canceled due to lack of public interest? | 00:33 |
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| pupnik | hmm well isn't the council there to manage maemo/nokia relations from community side | 00:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | <yawn> again - ok, seems elections are obsolete ;-P | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://maemo.org/community/council/the_maemo_community_council_candidates-and_possibly_the_newly_elected-are_in/ | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | prolly I should change topic, uh? | 00:37 |
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| chx | we need an age filter on tmo. http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=969208 good grief. | 00:39 |
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| pupnik | i think it's a joke | 00:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | HTF to add tags to such an awesome thread?!!!!?!?!?!!!!one!!11!eleven | 00:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer | pupnik: it's for sure a joke, questionable if it's an intentional one | 00:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | OMG! Posts:3, Thanks:1 , I'm seriously temped to find out about that post that earned that thanks | 00:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | ME!!!11!!! | 00:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | +H | 00:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | +<yaaaaaaaaawn> | 00:45 |
| pupnik | "The most commonly accepted value for the risk is that the increased risk of cancer is 4 percent per Sievert." | 00:45 |
| pupnik | poor workers | 00:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | errwut? | 00:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok, so just try to get to 16%, this will stop all cancer rather short term | 00:46 |
| pupnik | lol | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | make that 20% if you're not SM | 00:47 |
| pupnik | yes radiation above a certain level will also kill the cancer cells :) | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | 5Sv considered immediately lethal (few hours) | 00:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer | <2Sv you got chances to survivie | 00:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | until you die from those 8% probability cancer | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | some 10 years later | 00:49 |
| * pupnik is sad about cancer | 00:50 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | pupnik: honestly that quote above is nonsense or at very least meaningless | 00:51 |
| pupnik | http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fukushima-workers | 00:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I heard from a friend who's UK and a carpenter that in USA carpenters work to a precision of 5mm, for anything better than that you need special experts. So let me guess about the scientific part in scientificamerican | 00:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer | oh, sorry, I bet he said 0.2" | 00:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer | which of course sounds way better :-P | 00:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | sorry again, probably 1/4" is the correct metrics | 00:59 |
| SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: I point you to http://www.youtube.com/user/Matthiaswandel | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | Oh - he's canadian. | 01:00 |
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| SpeedEvil | I want to make his screw advance box joint jig. | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | (probably with a stepperthough, not fancy gears) | 01:01 |
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| Proteous | when you are building a house you don't need 1 micron percision... | 01:05 |
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| nidO | 1 micron and 5mm are a long way apart though, and houses generally do want far better than 5mm precision. | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | It depends. | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | They really don't in many cases. | 01:09 |
| nidO | I for one would be thoroughly pissed if any of the woodwork in my place was out of line by half a cm | 01:09 |
| SpeedEvil | For example, timber will move around 1% of its length. | 01:09 |
| SpeedEvil | Due to changes in humidity | 01:09 |
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| orlok | SpeedEvil: depending on the wood! | 01:14 |
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| orlok | SpeedEvil: metal will do similar, but due to temprature changes | 01:14 |
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| SpeedEvil | orlok: True. It's a lot more predictable though. | 01:18 |
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| orlok | SpeedEvil: yeah.. its interesting to see how some telescope components are made out of wood in some scopes | 01:19 |
| orlok | usually the tripod legs to lower vibration | 01:19 |
| SpeedEvil | 1mm/m for 25C delta for steel | 01:20 |
| SpeedEvil | ish | 01:20 |
| pupnik | ahha | 01:20 |
| orlok | SpeedEvil: Enough to knock a telescope out of focus! | 01:21 |
| SpeedEvil | Indeed. | 01:21 |
| * SpeedEvil wishes he'd gtten his inflatable telescope done | 01:22 | |
| orlok | SpeedEvil: especially when you consider they often get moved from inside to outside.. but they need to reach equilibrium with the outside air to prevent air currents disturbing the view | 01:22 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 01:22 |
| SpeedEvil | (carbon fibre cords held under tension by inflated structure) | 01:22 |
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| orlok | SpeedEvil: Heh, mirror or refractor? | 01:25 |
| orlok | mirror i guess | 01:25 |
| orlok | the optics are the pain | 01:25 |
| SpeedEvil | orlok: mirror, yes. | 01:26 |
| SpeedEvil | Geometry is fun too. | 01:26 |
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| * SpeedEvil wishes they'd have built OWL. | 01:27 | |
| SpeedEvil | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwhelmingly_Large_Telescope | 01:27 |
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| pupnik | cool SpeedEvil | 01:32 |
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| pupnik | that telescope would cost 1 week's warmongering in Afghanistan | 01:33 |
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| pupnik | could build a field of 100 such telescopes with 2 years of the cost | 01:34 |
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| pupnik | btw why can't we build big fields of small telescopes? | 01:35 |
| SpeedEvil | pupnik: Inteferometers are hard. | 01:36 |
| SpeedEvil | And the sparse array fallacy (orr something like that) means that a sparsely filled apature is not equivalent to a filled apature. | 01:37 |
| pupnik | that's enough of an answer for me, thanks | 01:37 |
| SpeedEvil | You have to do the combination by optical means - you can't do it with electronics. | 01:37 |
| SpeedEvil | This makes it really hard. | 01:37 |
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| pupnik | yeah longer wavelengths are more doable, right? | 01:38 |
| SpeedEvil | pupnik: In brief - if you take a bit of foil, and poke several holes in it with a needle, and look through it, you can see better than one needle-hole, but it's very different from a clear apature. | 01:39 |
| SpeedEvil | Where longer wavelengrths = microwave. | 01:39 |
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| pupnik | 1.5 billion to be able to see other planets | 01:40 |
| pupnik | or 7 billion to beat up tribesmen in the hindu-kush mountains | 01:40 |
| pupnik | for a month | 01:40 |
| SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fNJWkZL_cp0#t=1315s - voice over GSM | 01:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | voice over GSM? incredible :-D | 01:45 |
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| ds3 | is that like voice over copper? | 01:46 |
| SpeedEvil | Err | 01:46 |
| ds3 | or voice over string? | 01:46 |
| SpeedEvil | encrypted data - over GSM - and thatr data happens to be voice | 01:46 |
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| Proteous | voice over smoke signals, multicast FTW | 01:49 |
| * ShadowJK gets TV over multicast | 01:49 | |
| SpeedEvil | the above is actually pointful if you want enncrypted voice that can't be snooped. | 01:50 |
| Proteous | how is the key exchange done? | 01:50 |
| SpeedEvil | I found it also fun the recent work that you can - with variab le rate codecs - fingerprint what's being said though it's tunneled. | 01:50 |
| SpeedEvil | Proteous: Inmany ways that's irrelevant - diffle-heimen. | 01:51 |
| SpeedEvil | Or however it's spelled. | 01:51 |
| Proteous | :P | 01:51 |
| SpeedEvil | Once you've got the data channel, encryptionbecomes boring. | 01:51 |
| Proteous | if you are worried about nnot being sniffed then the details are very important :P | 01:51 |
| SpeedEvil | True. | 01:51 |
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| ds3 | forget about voice, it is obsolete | 01:52 |
| SpeedEvil | But key negotiation is well known. | 01:52 |
| Proteous | sure, in theory | 01:52 |
| Proteous | but the devil is in the implementation | 01:52 |
| SpeedEvil | Sure. | 01:52 |
| SpeedEvil | One-time-pads are the nuclear option. | 01:52 |
| Proteous | heh | 01:52 |
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| DocScrutinizer | too long. Is there a transcript? | 01:59 |
| SpeedEvil | Yeah - autotranscripts'd be nice | 02:00 |
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| lolcat | Yes, I found a java developer! | 02:07 |
| SpeedEvil | I think to develop java, you dip it in concentrated hot lye for 5 minutes. | 02:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: what are they doing? custom GSM-codec, or specially designed vocoder to transmit 2400bd as "speech"? | 02:14 |
| SpeedEvil | the latter | 02:14 |
| SpeedEvil | I haven't watched it properly yet eitehr. | 02:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | or do they simply ship around the bandwidth problem by avoiding realtime? | 02:14 |
| SpeedEvil | It's realtime I think - I need to watch it though | 02:15 |
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| derf | 2400 baud is certainly possible with newer speech codecs. | 02:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | 2400 for sure is enough for legible speech transmission | 02:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | a vocoder squeezing 2400 thru a GSM-codec that's by itself working at 9600 is a quite nifty piece of software though | 02:25 |
| ShadowJK | i guess if you optimize it for one speaker speaking one language.. :) | 02:25 |
| SpeedEvil | If you could do reliable speaker-independant voice recongnition, that would make it awesome. | 02:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah, iLBC should work with 2400 | 02:26 |
| derf | It'll sound terrible, though. | 02:26 |
| derf | You want something like AMBE or codec2. | 02:26 |
| SpeedEvil | Sometimes you don't really care if it sounds terrible. | 02:27 |
| SpeedEvil | Just that the NSA/... can't read it. | 02:27 |
| derf | Well, AMBE/codec2 aren't going to sound beautiful. | 02:27 |
| derf | But they'll sound a gekk of a lot better than iLBC. | 02:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yeah, there's a new better codec every other week | 02:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | the 2400 figure is straight from my a... though. I have nfi how difficult it is to tailor a vocoder to exploit maximum possible bandwidth of the GSM voice->data coding process, how much redundancy you need to cope with errors on the medium, like companders, echo cancellation, klick and hum, and whatnot else | 02:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer | best vocoder is a cherokee with a code book ;-P | 02:45 |
| cehteh | while we europeand use danish people for that purpose# | 02:46 |
| cehteh | ct | 02:46 |
| cehteh | oops wrong keyboard .. but that was only the login not the password :P | 02:47 |
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| derf | DocScrutinizer: AMBE's been around since the 90's, at lest. | 02:53 |
| derf | *least | 02:53 |
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| TiagoTiago | Fucking shit! I almost threw my N900 against the wall. | 03:03 |
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| * SpeedEvil has done that. | 03:04 | |
| SpeedEvil | Twice, in fact. | 03:04 |
| SpeedEvil | Getting out of bed, and it being in the blankets. | 03:04 |
| cehteh | mine dropped onto the asphalt street while biking recently | 03:04 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm glad I've got the case on it, it absorbs a little of the shock. | 03:05 |
| cehteh | luckily in my self-build cover .. no scratch, no dent :) | 03:05 |
| TiagoTiago | I was writting this long elaborated post on a forum with microB, then the "battery low" banner popped so i pulled the charger cable and plugged it in, it said charging so i went back to writting, next thing i know another banner pops saying "recharge the battery" and the fucking thing shuts down | 03:05 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: :/ | 03:06 |
| SpeedEvil | Forums-- | 03:06 |
| cehteh | hehe i have a cheap alternative charger .. it should provide 800ma .. but i doubt that sometimes when listening to music the battery drains | 03:07 |
| cehteh | (on USB it still charges) | 03:07 |
| TiagoTiago | is there an extension for microB like Lazarus for Firefox that keeps fresh backups of unsent webform contents? | 03:08 |
| TiagoTiago | I'm using the wallcharger that came with it | 03:08 |
| cehteh | i use that at home .. but in my workshop i use the other one | 03:09 |
| TiagoTiago | I'm using the wallcharger that came with it | 03:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | cehteh: D+- short missing | 03:10 |
| cehteh | DocScrutinizer: its explicitly rated for the n900 .. well i may figure that out | 03:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh | 03:11 |
| TiagoTiago | Is there a way to read the current properties of the juice coming from the charger while plugged? | 03:11 |
| cehteh | but without d+- shortened and without power acknowleding it shouldnt charge at all .. or at least at very low rate | 03:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | rated for... and certified I assume, by "our world leading expert" | 03:11 |
| cehteh | well without d shortened how much power will it draw? by usb spec it cant draw more than 30mA or so (everything more has to be acknowledged with the host .. up to 500ma) | 03:12 |
| TiagoTiago | Like that stereo bt headset from Nokia that is sweatproof but fries after just a couple of laps 'round the block? | 03:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | cat `find /sys -name charger` | 03:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer | of course you might have picked a fubar charger that has a foldback OC-prot which switches off the output on overload until you remove the load | 03:14 |
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| TiagoTiago | brb | 03:15 |
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| cehteh | cat `find /sys -name charger` | 03:15 |
| cehteh | 0 | 03:15 |
| cehteh | heh | 03:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | USB compliant chargers should simply reduce output voltage until current is within limits | 03:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | cehteh: == no D+- | 03:15 |
| timeless_w7ip | tiagotiago: i'd suggest using <notes> for text fields and copying back to microb when you're ready | 03:15 |
| timeless_w7ip | notes autosaves | 03:15 |
| cehteh | this is on a usb port | 03:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-P | 03:16 |
| timeless_w7ip | and generally is less likely to crash | 03:16 |
| cehteh | can you read the charge current somewhere? | 03:16 |
| cehteh | lshal ... | 03:16 |
| cehteh | doesnt give it | 03:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | charge? | 03:16 |
| cehteh | battery.reporting.current = 881 (0x371) (int) | 03:17 |
| cehteh | battery.reporting.design = 1247 (0x4df) (int) | 03:17 |
| cehteh | battery.reporting.last_full = 880 (0x370) (int) | 03:17 |
| cehteh | mhm need a new battery anyways | 03:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | charge current is from bq27200.sh, but that's not equal to USB current | 03:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | cehteh: forget hal, it tells the lies bme has spread | 03:17 |
| cehteh | well the battery doesnt feel healthy anyways... | 03:18 |
| cehteh | its sometimes empty after a few hours of moderate or now use of the device | 03:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm, so feed it some medicine | 03:18 |
| cehteh | replace it i'd say :) | 03:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer | the answer to all this is bq27200.sh | 03:19 |
| cehteh | where is that available? | 03:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh | 03:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://enivax.net/jk/n900/ | 03:20 |
| TiagoTiago | that line you gave me returns just the number 1, nothing like amperage, voltage nor anything | 03:20 |
| TiagoTiago | wait, did i miss anything while i was restarting x-Chat? | 03:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, THE ANSWER | 03:21 |
| TiagoTiago | :( | 03:21 |
| TiagoTiago | :( | 03:21 |
| TiagoTiago | I said "brb" :( | 03:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | see /topic. For your relief there's a link called "chanlog:" | 03:23 |
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| TiagoTiago | ok | 03:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | but the answer is a magic spell that can't get logged in any chanlogs | 03:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | THE ANSWER | 03:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | also most clients won't display it | 03:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | odds are it went completely unnoticed, others might just see | 03:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | 42 | 03:27 |
| TiagoTiago | ok, notes, good idea | 03:29 |
| TiagoTiago | what about reading the current properties of the chager juice? Where do i find that battery.reporting.current thing? | 03:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | please rephrase | 03:31 |
| TiagoTiago | ah, nvm, lshal | grep battery | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | oh, you're interested in lies and BS? | 03:32 |
| cehteh | <DocScrutinizer> the answer to all this is bq27200.sh | 03:33 |
| cehteh | :P | 03:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | cehteh: and, isn't it the truth? | 03:33 |
| cehteh | dunno if its the truth but looks better | 03:33 |
| cehteh | while some 'legend' about the abbrevitations or some -h flag for human readable might be useful | 03:34 |
| cehteh | (maybe i shall look at that script) | 03:34 |
| cehteh | uhm .. since 2.6.38 my terminals under x behave strangely .. both xterm and rxvt | 03:35 |
| TiagoTiago | Wait, is that the status of the battery or the properties of the juice flowing thru the usb port? | 03:35 |
| cehteh | mhm maybe its my windowmanager | 03:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | interesing are TimeToFull(min), TimeToEmpty(min), RSOC/CSOC=%charge, NAC=capacity(mAh), CACD,CACT=corrected values of NAC, for current/temperature | 03:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | especially important: CI:0 (Calculation Invalid) | 03:40 |
| TiagoTiago | what should those read if the charger juice is flowing as it should? | 03:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | which those? | 03:41 |
| TiagoTiago | the values bq and/or reports that are relevant to juice health | 03:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | sorry, doesn't parse | 03:42 |
| TiagoTiago | I asked how to read the current properties of the juice comming in thru the USB port and you suggested lshal and that bq script | 03:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | I did not | 03:43 |
| TiagoTiago | I'm confused | 03:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | there is no way to measure the current drawn from USB | 03:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | directly | 03:44 |
| TiagoTiago | How does it know when there is not enough juice coming in like when doing heavy stuff while plugged to a PC? | 03:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can measure the current flowing to/from battery, with `bq27200.sh 5` and compare the mA reading for USB plugged/unplugged. They will roughly differ the size of current fed to system from USB | 03:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | not enough current (my jiuce is in the fridge!) == batery current is discharging battery, not charging it | 03:46 |
| SpeedEvil | Oh. | 03:48 |
| TiagoTiago | So it can tell the amount of current flowing to/from the battery and which way it is flowing? | 03:48 |
| SpeedEvil | One random point on 'my USB is broken' | 03:48 |
| SpeedEvil | Random objects can get into your USB port | 03:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: yes, that's what bq27200(.sh) is for | 03:48 |
| SpeedEvil | The otehr day I picked a sliver of wood out, which was preventing the plug seating properly. | 03:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer | hehe, known issue | 03:49 |
| TiagoTiago | Just current or voltage too? | 03:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: just look at it? | 03:49 |
| TiagoTiago | k | 03:49 |
| TiagoTiago | the voltage value doesn't go negative, what gives? | 03:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | or study this: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/jrbme/bme_chargefloat_log | 03:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: your sentences always decode like googletranslates of chinese | 03:51 |
| TiagoTiago | really? | 03:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, not actually, you at least use correct punctuation marks like ? after what | 03:53 |
| TiagoTiago | There is a mV in that loop mode report, but unlike the mA its value doesn't go negative when i pull the charger plug out | 03:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, that's the voltage of battery. Do you really expect it to reverse polarity? | 03:54 |
| TiagoTiago | What is the explanation for that? | 03:54 |
| TiagoTiago | i thought it was of the flow between the device and battery | 03:54 |
| SpeedEvil | No. mV is the battery voltage | 03:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | voltage of the flow?? | 03:55 |
| SpeedEvil | It's always positive. | 03:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | flow is Ampere, it has no voltage | 03:55 |
| * SpeedEvil drops Mr Ampere on TiagoTiago | 03:55 | |
| TiagoTiago | I thought that when electricity went the opposite way the numbers would be negated | 03:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | I made up my mind, it sounds japanese. "we stopped pump fill sea water on PV. Why pressure in PV it is positive?" | 03:57 |
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| TiagoTiago | Watts = Volts * Amps , Watts stay positive regardless of the direction of the flow, so Amps and Volts need to always have the same sign | 03:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | BS | 03:58 |
| TiagoTiago | Are you saying people do use negative watts when talking about electricity? | 03:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure | 03:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | a water power plant delivers 5MW with water coming down from upper pond. To pump water back up during nighttime you of course can speak of negative Watts that the power plant's trubines EAT instead of delivering it | 04:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | pretty identical situation on battery charging or depleting | 04:02 |
| TiagoTiago | What is the difference between 3V -10mA and -3V 10mA ? | 04:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | honestly, this is so silly I'm not sure if it's really nifty trolling | 04:03 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: one difference would be reversed polarity => fried device? | 04:04 |
| TiagoTiago | No, i'm really trying to understand how things really work since i my previious understanding is being contradicted | 04:04 |
| TiagoTiago | How are those two things not the same thing? | 04:05 |
| TiagoTiago | I always thought Watts was an absolute value, a scalar, but now you're saying it can be negative... | 04:06 |
| villager | voltage and current aren't the same thing, for starters | 04:06 |
| villager | watts is measured in a particular direction, just like current... if the energy flows in the opposite direction, it becomes negative | 04:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | while Voltage is like pressure (of a tank e.g), current is the flow of some medium (e.g. in / out of a pipe to that tank) | 04:08 |
| TiagoTiago | Are you saying that if someone wires one of those wall adapters that measure power consumption backwards it will read megative watts being consumed? | 04:08 |
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| villager | TiagoTiago: in theory, it should. | 04:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | Voltage=force, current=volume/distance | 04:10 |
| villager | of course the electronics may not be designed for that... | 04:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | Voltage=force, current=volume/distance per time unit | 04:10 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: if you have a solar panel on your roof and pump electricity *into* the power grid instead of out, you get negative watt consumption and the power company pays you, if they allow that kind of thing | 04:11 |
| TiagoTiago | Voltage is like pressure difference, Amperage is like flowrate; how is it possible for it to flow backwards accross the pressure gradient? | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | if you got a garden hose, the voltage is the pressure in PSI/ATM, and the current is the liters/s that are running thru it | 04:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | you're never using the same to trstpoints for current and voltage probing | 04:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer | voltage of a battery is between + and - contact. current is from one of those thru your amperemeter to the consuming circuit | 04:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | same two | 04:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | fsck | 04:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're never using the same two trestpoints for current and voltage probing | 04:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer | fail *sigh* | 04:14 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: I think you just need an even higher voltage from the charger, then the current will flow into the battery without changing the battery's voltage | 04:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | volzage is like pressure difference (I got 1024 mBar here, pressure difference between athmosphere and that vacuum part of the mercury glass tube), how comes there's still water flowing OUT of the tap? | 04:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | simple answer: pressure of water in the pipe is even higher than those 1024mBar | 04:17 |
| TiagoTiago | Ok, consider two water boxes connected by a hose at the bottom, if the two boxes are on the same level Voltage and Amperage are at zero, now if you raise box A, or manually put more water in it, or activate a pump the hose is going thru so that it pumps water to box B, Voltage and Amperage are positive ( we will keep using box A as reference), if you do it the other way around V and A would be negative; how the hell would make one be posit | 04:18 |
| TiagoTiago | ive but the other negative? | 04:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | both boxes have positive Voltage/pressure, you easily can test when you drill a hole into bottom: water comes out with the pressure of that particular box | 04:19 |
| TiagoTiago | Not relative to each other | 04:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | just when you fill in water in one, then the pressure is higher than in the other, so there's a "voltage" across your tube | 04:20 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: the battery voltage is the pressure difference between the top and bottom of *one* box, say B, not the pressure difference between box A and B... easy | 04:20 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: then the voltage is always positive, regardless of current | 04:21 |
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| villager | TiagoTiago: then if you're discharging, box A is lower, if you're charging, box A is higher | 04:21 |
| villager | the battery voltage will depend on how much water is in box B, but not the direction of the flow | 04:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer | [2011-03-17 03:13:19] <DocScrutinizer> voltage of a battery is between + and - contact. current is from one of those thru your amperemeter to the consuming circuit | 04:25 |
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| villager | yep | 04:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | [2011-03-17 03:13:57] <DocScrutinizer> you're never using the same two trestpoints for current and voltage probing | 04:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | (except if you're interested how much voltage drop error your Amperemeter introduces to the circuit under test) | 04:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | ideally there is NO voltage along wires "piping" current to somewhere, and of course also not along/acros the Amperemeter | 04:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer | real world is rarely ideal (except with supraconductors) | 04:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | but for a basic understanding of physics you better assume it was, first approach | 04:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | pretty much same way you assume the water pressure in your tapwater pipe is same before and after meter | 04:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | the meter is counting the current. Well actually it integrates the current over time, and reads a volume spent | 04:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can tell the current by watching how fast the dials spin | 04:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's Ampere | 04:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | the pressure might be high at nighttime, and rather low when every neighbour waters their lawn. But usually it doesn't become negative (as pressure of a battery never does) | 04:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | still you might decide to pump water *into* your tap, by using a pump that has higher pressure than that found inside the pipe | 04:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | (beware, your neighbours probably will call homeland security!) | 04:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | tough, if you got a wate tank on top of your roof, you for sure will pump water up (charge), and also water will come down again and flow out your tap (discharge). The pressure is the voltage, the liters/min is the current (Ampere) | 04:39 |
| villager | looks like he got disconnected again | 04:40 |
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| TiagoTiago | sorry, the system locked up, lemme check the log to catch up | 04:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh, too bad. Was about to elaborate about Spain where everybody got such a watertank on their roof, as central water supply is shaky. And "not enough power to charge" means the water flowing into N900 via USB is not as much as that you draw from the tap in the AV-receptacke... errr | 04:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/draw/draft/? | 04:43 |
| TiagoTiago | So the voltage is the voltage of one thing, while the current is the current of somthing else? | 04:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | basically yes | 04:44 |
| TiagoTiago | Why do they do it like that? | 04:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | because there's no other meaningful way to do it | 04:45 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: it's not physically possible to measure voltage and current on exactly the same thing... as said, voltage and current is different | 04:45 |
| TiagoTiago | So it's like they put a pressure gage on the pipe but use a waterwheel under the faucet to measure current flow? | 04:46 |
| villager | voltage is always between two points. current is not, it can be measured in a single point | 04:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: I STRICTLY DISCOURRAGE to try and probe the Ampere found in a wall mains outlet. You can probe the Volt though | 04:46 |
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| TiagoTiago | It's like measuring windspeed instead of the motion of the air atoms and molecules? | 04:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | checking Ampere of a mains outlet is like bucket-measuring how many liters of water are in your waterpipe | 04:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | depending on diameter of pipe this will become a rather unpleasant experience | 04:49 |
| villager | fzzt! | 04:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | like villager said. Current is the number of electrons passing by at ONE point / second. While Voltage is the difference of electron pressure between TWO points | 04:50 |
| TiagoTiago | Usually you would measure how much current is flowing without makeing the current flow, like placing a waterwheel in a river instead of blasting open a riverbank | 04:50 |
| villager | the ideal amperemeter is basically a shortcircuit, so a real bad idea to try on your power outlet | 04:50 |
| timeless_w7ip | doc: you probably wnted 'drew' (also available in other cases is 'drawn') | 04:51 |
| TiagoTiago | I thought you could measure Amps with some circuit sitting between the source and the device consuming the electricity.... | 04:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, you can | 04:52 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: yes, and ideally that device has no resistance (which is why I said shortcircuit) | 04:52 |
| timeless_w7ip | s/wnted/wanted/ | 04:52 |
| infobot | timeless_w7ip meant: doc: you probably wanted 'drew' (also available in other cases is 'drawn') | 04:52 |
| TiagoTiago | and that is the same way you could measure the Volts "entering" the device's circuit | 04:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | but that's because of the way this equipment works. You also can test the magnetic field around one point of a wire, and that'S a very convenient way to probe current | 04:52 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: the ideal voltmeter has infinite resistance, *no* current passes through it | 04:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | like no water flows out a PSI meter | 04:53 |
| TiagoTiago | but if you already got your voltmeter there why not use the same input and output for measuring current flow? | 04:53 |
| villager | you cannot mix the two without disrupting the circuit | 04:54 |
| TiagoTiago | even if the two are in parallel or being switched from one to the other and back very fast? | 04:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can't plumb a water volume meter to the PSI-meter stub | 04:55 |
| villager | and it would not be useful in any case, the current flowing through your voltmeter is not the current you want to measure, which is probably the current through the *rest* of the circuit | 04:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | exactly | 04:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | and you wouldn't want to cut the current to the rest of the circuit by inserting a virtually infinite resistance voltmeter at the point where your Amperemeter was | 04:57 |
| TiagoTiago | Like my example with the pressure gage on the pipe, the pressure gage is a circuit with infinite (or really big) resistance between the pipe and the ground, then you add a little turbine thingy in the pipe between the faucet to measure current flow, why can't somthing like that be done with the electricity comming fromthe battery? | 04:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | it is done like that, nevertheless logically the two things are unrelated | 04:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | and disjunkt | 04:59 |
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| TiagoTiago | If the faucet lead to a sealed room, if the room was pressurized to the point of having more pressure than the pipes, both the current and the pressure measured values on the pipe would be negative. | 05:03 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: so you have a pressure gauge to measure pressure and turbine in tap to measure flow, that's different things, what makes that different from how it's done for battery, where volt and amps is also different? | 05:03 |
| TiagoTiago | No, 'cause the values of the two always share the same sign | 05:04 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: no, in the case of the pressurized room, the water pressure would be positive, and the flow would be negative | 05:04 |
| TiagoTiago | But with the battery no the N900, in the loop mode of that bq script, volts and amps don't always share the same sign | 05:04 |
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| TiagoTiago | The pressure gage is measuring the pressure difference between inside the pipe and the rest of the room | 05:05 |
| TiagoTiago | (forget what i said about ground) | 05:05 |
| villager | uh huh, but that's not what the battery gauge measures | 05:06 |
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| villager | the battery voltage measurement is more useful the way it is now, because it says how much power is left *inside* the battery, which is quite useful to know | 05:08 |
| villager | besides it's not clear what else you'd want to measure | 05:08 |
| TiagoTiago | There is no measure of the voltage difference between the battery and the device? | 05:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | we're not interested in the voltage drop along the copper trace from battery to device | 05:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | (well, not really) | 05:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's supposed to be ~0 | 05:09 |
| TiagoTiago | I just found it confusing that it reports volts and amps but not of the same thing, i was expecting it to provide values that could be used to calculate how many watts the device is sucking | 05:10 |
| villager | you can | 05:10 |
| * DocScrutinizer SIGHS | 05:10 | |
| TiagoTiago | You can't calculate watts without knowing both the amps and the volts | 05:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | going tru / and found across the device. You're not interested in the watts the copper trace is dissipating | 05:11 |
| villager | you have both amps and volts... if you get negative watts, that means the device is charging the battery instead of draining it | 05:11 |
| TiagoTiago | If they are from different things then it's like trying to calculate someone's bodymass index by using their height but their dog's weight | 05:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | BS | 05:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's ONE thing: your device | 05:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | it got a plus- and a minus-pole | 05:12 |
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| TiagoTiago | Current can't flow against the voltage | 05:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | voltage is between plus and minus, while current is either going into plus or coming out of minus | 05:13 |
| villager | as said, if you're charging, the charger has a higher voltage than the battery, so current will flow into the battery | 05:13 |
| TiagoTiago | unless your're measuring the voltage of somthing else instead of the circuit you're measuring the amperage | 05:13 |
| villager | but the charger voltage is not measured here | 05:14 |
| villager | just the battery voltage | 05:14 |
| TiagoTiago | how can it be going to + without coming from - ? | 05:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | I give up | 05:14 |
| TiagoTiago | I'm sorry, this thing with measuring things a different way but still saying it as if it was the same is confusing me | 05:15 |
| villager | current can come from anywhere it is forced into the circuit, like from the power grid... doesn't have to come from the battery you're charging. | 05:17 |
| timeless_w7ip | tiago:: let's look at something else | 05:17 |
| timeless_w7ip | consider temperature | 05:17 |
| timeless_w7ip | let's have 3 rooms A .. B .. C | 05:17 |
| timeless_w7ip | If I make the temperature in room C 50degrees | 05:17 |
| timeless_w7ip | and the temperature in the next room (B) 30degrees | 05:17 |
| timeless_w7ip | then at some point there's going to be a transfer of heat from C to B | 05:18 |
| timeless_w7ip | it's going from a place with +++++ to a place with +++ | 05:18 |
| timeless_w7ip | I could make A have a temperature of -10degrees | 05:18 |
| timeless_w7ip | but it's still possible for things to go from +++++ to +++ instead of having to go to a place with - | 05:19 |
| timeless_w7ip | does that make any sense? :) | 05:19 |
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| timeless_w7ip | btw, the use of + and - in electricity was actually arbitrary, it's now consistently used with + and - in a certain way | 05:20 |
| timeless_w7ip | but it could have been the other way | 05:20 |
| TiagoTiago | But when we talk about volts we mean difference and not absolute values | 05:21 |
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| TiagoTiago | It turns out it is backwards, actual electrons flow from negative to positive, but they kept it reversed for backwards compatibility | 05:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: I told you you can not measure device Watts by bq27200. It's a dedicated battery monitor hardware. It *only* shows _battery_ voltage (between + and - of battery) and battery current in/out. Device with all the consumers and charger is on the other end | 05:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | the charger also can power the device consumers directly, then this part of current will not be seen by bq27200 | 05:24 |
| TiagoTiago | So there is no direct way to measure watts consumption, we can onlyestimate it by watching the effects of that consumption? | 05:24 |
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| villager | yes... if you remove the charger, then the two must be equal | 05:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | as told way above, you can plug and unplug charger. The difference in battery current is what the device actually consumes | 05:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | err, is what the charger supplies | 05:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | current*volt of battery == current*volt of device sans charger, so this is a pretty accurate reading | 05:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer | but if device sucks 1A, and charger supplies 700mA, then battery will read 300mA DIScharge, even while charger plugged in | 05:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | this is what bq27200 will show you: 300mA | 05:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | DISCHARGE (and a warning will pop up "charger doesn't supply enough energy" OWTTE) | 05:29 |
| TiagoTiago | Ok | 05:29 |
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| TiagoTiago | Current goes negative because it is measured between battery and device, but voltage stays positive 'cause it is measure between the battery + and the battery - , alright, i can live with that | 05:32 |
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| TiagoTiago | Makes lots more sense than negative watts | 05:33 |
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| villager | well, negative watts does make sense | 05:33 |
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| TiagoTiago | Not for me, current can't flow against the pressure difference | 05:34 |
| villager | watts is the flow of energy... so positive could mean energy is flowing out of the battery, and negative is energy is flowing into the battery from the charger | 05:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | negative watts do make as much sense as do negative voltages and currents | 05:35 |
| TiagoTiago | unless you're mixing apples and oranges | 05:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: you are mixing apples with oranges. We never said voltage is along the wire from battery to device | 05:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | we actually always explained those two physical values are largely unrelated | 05:36 |
| villager | how many times do we have to tell you? the charger puts on a BIGGER pressure than the battery, therefore current flows "backwards" into the battery | 05:36 |
| TiagoTiago | I've never heard it was possible for them to have opposite signs in the same length of wire | 05:37 |
| TiagoTiago | volt is relative, not absolute | 05:37 |
| villager | but the measurement between the battery poles (as opposed to the voltage between battery and charger) will measure how much power is delivered to/from the battery | 05:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | I honestly have to leave now, to keep my mood up | 05:38 |
| TiagoTiago | Sorry | 05:38 |
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| TiagoTiago | How can it flow against the pressure difference? | 05:39 |
| villager | [04:36]<villager> how many times do we have to tell you? the charger puts on a BIGGER pressure than the battery, therefore current flows "backwards" into the battery | 05:39 |
| villager | the pressure difference forces the current that way, into the battery | 05:40 |
| TiagoTiago | Current and Voltage can't have opposit signs unless you're measuring different circuits | 05:40 |
| villager | let's say you have a 5V battery, and the charger can deliver 10V, and the negative poles of both are both grounded. Then you have three levels: CHARGER+ = 10V, BATTERY+ = 5V, GROUND = 0V... since current always flows from a higher potential to a lower, this forces current towards the + pole of the battery | 05:41 |
| villager | disconnect the charger and put in a machine you want to run, and then the current will of course flow from the battery + pole to the battery - pole | 05:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: PLEASE LISTEN!!! current is in ONE point. Volatge is between TWO points. The both are first instance COMPLETELY unrelated, as in there's no voltage associated to a current | 05:44 |
| villager | then the voltage between + and - on the battery is always 5V, but the current can be reversed | 05:44 |
| villager | just by attaching the charger... | 05:44 |
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| TiagoTiago | If the one point where you measure current is between the two points you use to measure voltage then the sign will always match | 05:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | it just happens bq27200 meassures voltage and current of the battery, it as well could measure voltage of the microphone if that would help us more that the current setup. But voltage displayed by bq27200 is NOT responsable or related to the current displayed there | 05:46 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: well, you cannot measure current inside the battery, only outside of it... | 05:49 |
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| TiagoTiago | if the one point isn't between the two points then you're not measuring the properties of the same thing, you can't use thos two values to calculate wattage, it's like the bodymass index with your dog's weight | 05:49 |
| villager | TiagoTiago: there's a physical law that says that unless the circuit has branches, the current is always the same anywhere in the circuit, so you can measure the current anywhere you want | 05:51 |
| villager | if the circuit has branches, the total current through each branch must add up to be equal to what it would have been if it was not | 05:52 |
| TiagoTiago | What if the branches lead to or from outside the circuit? | 05:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | c'mon please stop that nonsense now. It's becoming silly or annoying or dunno what | 05:53 |
| villager | if there's a current through those, then it must still add up | 05:54 |
| villager | conservation of energy | 05:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | villager: don't run into that trap again. Voltage is measured between two points, but given there's no line between those two points (as a voltmeter is of infinite resistance) there's also no location "between" those two points. Current and voltage measurements are unrelated, and connecting them without referring to a particular background aka circuit makes no sense | 05:59 |
| villager | DocScrutinizer: yes, but I feel such technicalities would not be helpful to talk about right now... | 05:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | nothing has the faintest look like it'S helpful here | 06:00 |
| villager | well, perhaps I should be getting back to doing something useful anyway | 06:00 |
| TiagoTiago | I do understand that if you ignore a part of the system the signs can diverge, but on a closed system the signs should always agree | 06:02 |
| villager | okay, then consider the battery the part of the system under measurement, and the battery is not a closed system, and let's leave it at that... | 06:03 |
| pupnik | to generate configure, i run "autoconf" which uses configure.in, correct? | 06:15 |
| pupnik | when i try that, i get a totally different configure from the one shipped with libSDL | 06:16 |
| pupnik | 958937 Mar 17 05:16 configure.orig | 06:16 |
| pupnik | 266176 Mar 17 05:16 configure | 06:16 |
| * DocScrutinizer mumbles diff | 06:17 | |
| DocScrutinizer | though those filesizes are friggin scary both of them | 06:18 |
| pupnik | lol | 06:18 |
| pupnik | ok "autoreconf" command creates a working configure | 06:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | autotools are a PITA anyway | 06:19 |
| njsf | amen DocScrutinizer | 06:23 |
| njsf | yet, despite being a PITA, cumbersome, and sometimes wrong, they are still kinda the best in town in terms of comprehensive support for environment detection | 06:24 |
| derf | I don't really think that's true. | 06:25 |
| derf | You have to put just as much time to get it to work on another platform as always, because if you haven't actually tested it, it won't. | 06:25 |
| njsf | derf: I "kinda" agree for projects with few dependencies. With projects with huge dependencies, the network effects of those dependencies also providing ac .m4 files is awesome | 06:34 |
| derf | No, because if your platform is at all unusual, then half of them will break, too. | 06:35 |
| TiagoTiago | alright, imm going to sleep, cya | 06:35 |
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| njsf | I think you are looking at it from a distro perspective, not from a project developer perspective ? | 06:39 |
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| derf | No, I am a project developer. | 06:41 |
| njsf | I am too | 06:41 |
| njsf | I will give you we do spend a good amount of time on our autoconf | 06:42 |
| njsf | but I have to also realized that I would have to spend A LOT more if I coded by ourselves all the dependencies detection we have | 06:42 |
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| MacDrunk | sup a;\ll | 06:54 |
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| Geophit | hi all | 07:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer | hi | 07:06 |
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| lofty306 | the joys of skype ppl you dont know just call outta the blue | 07:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it's ludicrous they report dosages like 1mSv/h for the Fukushima plant a bit off from the reactor buildings, but OTOH the helicopter action had to get stopped yesterday due to radiation levels too high, and today they have equipped the helicopers with Pb shielding for the pilots so they won't get hurt when flying at a level of maybe 100m above the site. This sounds more like 1MSv/h rather than 1mSv/h | 07:45 |
| pupnik | off the site upwind is much less than above the burning building | 07:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | lofty306: (<lofty306> GE sending 10 gas turbine generators to japan) so is that supposed to help on the FUKU-site? Doesn't Japan have such things themselves? I heard they brought generators to there on day0 or day1, but it didn't work, for unknown reasons. Now they come up with big news they hope to complete a powerline to FUKU today, and start the cooling again. It's really all so three-stooges, freaking scary sh*t | 07:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | pupnik: winds would spread particles that aren't any dangerous *outside* the heli for the pilot inside. Plus a lead shielding wouldn't help at all for that | 07:54 |
| pupnik | gamma rays penetrate aluminum etc | 07:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah sure, but the mere distance from those microscopic particles... | 07:57 |
| pupnik | a large area is radioactive with high energy rays. sheilding is helpful | 07:58 |
| pupnik | and psychologically as well | 07:59 |
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| pupnik | and they would not be flying at 1,000,000Sv/h | 08:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | if the radiation level a 100..200m horizontally off the reactor is at 1mSv then I can't see any serious danger for a heli pilot hoovering a 100m above that | 08:00 |
| lofty306 | DocScrutinizer, totaly 3stooges | 08:00 |
| lofty306 | heat rises prob taking the radiation wwith it | 08:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure, but then a Pb shielding is totally useless, esp when placed under the pilot seat only | 08:01 |
| pupnik | they 1mSv/h is like 5-10 chest x-rays per hour | 08:02 |
| lofty306 | lol | 08:02 |
| lofty306 | yay x rays | 08:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yeah, or like living in arbitrary clean places for 1 year | 08:03 |
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| lofty306 | i just realized that the Pegatron tablet is 11.6"' | 08:07 |
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| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer, I was wondering if the power situation was similar fuckup as at one of sweden's reactors | 08:23 |
| ShadowJK | Where all internal backup power failed because the components to synchronize with the grid frequency were identical and failed, and refused to cold boot | 08:24 |
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| doc|home | Two army helicopters made four attempts to drop seawater on unit 3, but this did not appear accurate enough to be effective. Tepco said in a news conference that radiation readings had dropped from 3.780 millisieverts to 3.752 millisieverts, so the effect at present seems marginal at best. | 08:25 |
| doc|home | do the japanese use . where we use ,? | 08:25 |
| doc|home | because... that'd be baaad. | 08:25 |
| ruskie | doc|home, sounds like that . is a thousand separator | 08:27 |
| lofty306 | a fireboat would be nice but wooould need to be manned | 08:27 |
| Shapeshifter | Is there a gps app that supports offline maps? I'm in singapore and I want to download the whole city while on wlan, all zoom levels, or at least the higher ones and then use it offline | 08:29 |
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| Shapeshifter | gps is secondary (I'm aware locating is slow/impossible without AGPS) but I at least want the maps | 08:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, I'd consider it best practice to avoid 1.234 and 1,234 - just use 1.2340 and 1234.0 and 123400.0 and then 1,234,567 | 08:32 |
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| lofty306 | huh? | 08:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Shapeshifter: marble | 08:34 |
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| Shapeshifter | DocScrutinizer: I'll check it out, thanks | 08:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | lofty306: ?? do not use thousand separators on numbers <7digits, do not use 3 decimals | 08:37 |
| lofty306 | 1,000 | 08:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | fck! | 08:37 |
| lofty306 | im still lost | 08:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, obviously | 08:39 |
| lofty306 | me runs hides | 08:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | better that | 08:39 |
| * lofty306 runs hides | 08:40 | |
| doc|home | lofty306: so . = thousand separator? | 08:40 |
| doc|home | in .jp | 08:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | now is that 1000.0 or is that 1,00 | 08:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | ? | 08:41 |
| lofty306 | oh i dont know what they use | 08:41 |
| doc|home | that's what I was asking | 08:41 |
| lofty306 | ahhhh :) | 08:41 |
| doc|home | night | 08:41 |
| Shapeshifter | I like ' as a thousand separator | 08:42 |
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| Shapeshifter | 1'000'000 | 08:42 |
| lofty306 | it ws almost like you asked the first part in another channel | 08:42 |
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| ruskie | hmm apparently japan uses a decimal point so 1.345 would be 1-point-345 | 08:43 |
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| doc|home | ruskie: thank fuck | 08:44 |
| * doc|home goes to bed | 08:44 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | 1mSv/h | 08:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | 1000µSv | 08:45 |
| doc|home | yes | 08:45 |
| doc|home | night | 08:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | o/ | 08:45 |
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| lofty306 | ShadowJK, for reprap or other projects? | 08:49 |
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| ShadowJK | thing took bloody long enough to get here I forgot what I was going to do | 08:50 |
| lofty306 | hehehe | 08:50 |
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| mece | if an N900 shuts down (usually) a few seconds after charger cable is removed, should one expect hardware problems? | 08:59 |
| mece | s/expect/suspect/ | 08:59 |
| infobot | mece meant: if an N900 shuts down (usually) a few seconds after charger cable is removed, should one suspect hardware problems? | 08:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mece: completely fsckd battery I suspect | 09:05 |
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| mece | DocScrutinizer, apparently tested with 2 different batteries. It's not my phone so I don't have all the details currently. | 09:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | then it gets hard to diagnose this | 09:06 |
| lofty306 | DocScrutinizer, do you know of a battery charger to charge the n900 batteries outside of the phone? | 09:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are plenty | 09:07 |
| mece | hmm | 09:07 |
| lofty306 | is the peron acidently grabbung the phone on the power button? | 09:07 |
| mece | bootreason: sw_rst | 09:07 |
| lofty306 | *person | 09:07 |
| lofty306 | ive done that more than once when unplugging | 09:08 |
| mece | lofty306, lol no. | 09:08 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, swap batteries. reflash. clean battery contacts of device. send in for repair. - simple like that | 09:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | aah, and of course make sure it's actually charging battery! use bq27200.sh to confirm | 09:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | e.g. an external charger providing dunno 3.8V could operate the device for days, but never charge battery | 09:23 |
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| ShadowJK | Also check for overclocking (don't) and smartreflex (don't) :P | 09:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah | 09:25 |
| ShadowJK | (charging has side effects on the way the CPU is run) | 09:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 09:25 |
| lofty306 | whats smartreflex? | 09:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbugencontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12032&contentId=4609 | 09:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer | SmartReflex technologies are a broad range of intelligent and adaptive hardware and software techniques that dynamically control voltage, frequency and power based on device activity, modes of operation and temperature. | 09:31 |
| ShadowJK | It's a thing some people find on forums and then turn on | 09:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer | here smartreflex as ShadowJK used it means the automatic switching of core supply voltages, without any software controlling that. It gets enabled via some sysnode | 09:32 |
| lofty306 | ahh.. and it mucks things all up? | 09:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's said to cause instabilities on N900, yes | 09:33 |
| ShadowJK | It's disabled-by-default for a reason | 09:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | for the same reason Nokia doesn't ship the device OC'd to 1000MHz - they know their hardware | 09:34 |
| lofty306 | im not one to try power mgmt things just for the hell of it though if i had a spare i'd proob be more apt to do alot of things | 09:34 |
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| lofty306 | brb glasses filthy | 09:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | you could argue they might have missed or dropped some small points and so SR *should* be enabled, but I doubt they are that incompetent | 09:36 |
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| ShadowJK | I'd probably myself backup everything (including music, videos and photos) and reflash just to check, and if it still does it I'd excercise warranty | 09:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | first check charger! | 09:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | first of all | 09:37 |
| * ShadowJK sleepsä | 09:37 | |
| DocScrutinizer | check if it does the same on PC | 09:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | of course a nuked bme could well explain such behaviour too | 09:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer | but you'd notice that, by borked charging notification | 09:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, diagnose by proxy is a nuisance | 09:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | plus I'm not sure mece is listening at all | 09:41 |
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| mece | was afk, I am now.. what what? | 09:41 |
| mece | ok lemme read the comments | 09:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | ( <mece> bootreason: sw_rst ) what now? shutdown or reboot? | 09:42 |
| mece | yes.. ok. Don't think he has smartreflex and it's not oc'd | 09:43 |
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| lofty306 | DocScrutinizer, did any more usb ports come off after the initial rash of them ? | 09:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | mece: if that's shutdown then I suspect battery doesn't get charged. Plug switched off device via cable to PC, do not "power up" | 09:46 |
| lofty306 | and were thoes pre productioom ones? | 09:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer | unclear | 09:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's an occasional fatality report every 2 weeks | 09:47 |
| mece | lofty306, mine came off and it was retail. | 09:47 |
| lofty306 | eek | 09:47 |
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| mece | lofty306, the newer devices have the same problem. | 09:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | mece: if it's reboot then probably sw error, triggered by dsme | 09:48 |
| lofty306 | i filed the hooks off my micro usb endss | 09:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer | that's largely useless | 09:48 |
| mece | it's shutdown | 09:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer | so charge via PC, in ACT_DEAD. Watch LED. Should turn green after some hours. Then power up and unplug | 09:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | preferably run bq27200.sh prior to unplug, save the printout | 09:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer | even *during* unplug, on a ssh, with loop period 5 | 09:51 |
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| mece | ok, I'll ask him to do that. Not sure he understands it all though. | 09:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | look at this for an example how the printout should look like http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/jrbme/bme_chargefloat_log | 09:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer | the instructions are easy, once he managed to get the tools installed: plug powered down device to PC and watch it charge (amber LED ->green). When green, switch on, then log in via WLAN/ssh, and do ""bq27200.sh; bq27200.sh 5". Then unplug. Send copy of the log printed at ssh terminal | 09:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer | s/send/pastebin/. | 09:57 |
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| mece | DocScrutinizer, nice. I'll give him the instructions | 09:57 |
| * mece goes afk | 10:00 | |
| * DocScrutinizer too | 10:00 | |
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| vadmeste | Hello everybody! I am using MADDE for Maemo 5, and it seems that QEMU is too slow (maybe due to its animation effects).. Any tricks to overcome this slowness ? | 10:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer | tell me, isn't Sony a japanese company? Don't they build all sorts of professional Video equipment? So WTF isn't there a single generator or car battery powered surveilance cam sending a 24/7 live stream of every critical point of Fukushima? | 10:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | also I thought it's been Toyota or somesuch company that had those funny little andoids. The damn should have enough bots over there to send some even inside the hot blocks | 10:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it's plain incredible they play "3 stooges save the day at a dead nuklear plant" since 6 days now | 10:08 |
| nidO | whats more incredible is the pure sensationalism and lack of much fact in whats being reported at most news outlets | 10:09 |
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| AsiQue | MohammadAG: ping | 10:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | nidO: well, >>The head of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said that the fuel pool at unit 4 had run dry and as a result, radiation levels at the plant were "extremely high". TEPCO denied that the pool had run dry and said "the condition is stable" at unit 4<< [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Fukushima_nuclear_accidents] doesn't exactly help to stop the rumour and rant and speculation. News outlets face a stampede of | 10:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | customers asking for better news. They can't state "we got only shit. That's it" two times a day | 10:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | actually the lack of facts, hard facts, at each and every announcement of tepco, JP gvmt and JP atomic authority, that's the most amazing thing | 10:19 |
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| RST38h | Doc: Once again, it is a hierarchical society | 10:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | better don't say anything and act like 3 stooges, than give full disclosure and reveal how everybody got lied at since 30 years | 10:21 |
| nidO | DocScrutinizer: the point actually is more that that report rightly states that the spent fuel pool was low on water, which they tried to refill via helicopter - yet most news outlets have been reporting they were trying to dump water onto reactor cores a-la chernobyl | 10:21 |
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| nidO | when the cores arent even exposed. | 10:21 |
| ruskie | sadly most media now-a-days tries to be sensationalistic | 10:21 |
| RST38h | Doc: Whoever stands up and gives full disclosure will be automatically assigned to be the guilty party | 10:22 |
| RST38h | Hence no disclosure. | 10:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | I most recently learnt there might be a SpentFuelPool at block3 as well | 10:23 |
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| RST38h | Each block has a spent fuel pool | 10:23 |
| nidO | tbh, the "good news" is that these 40 year-old reactors survived an earthquake several times more powerful than they were designed to without a scratch, and have only fucked up because the backup diesel generators and backup backup generators were washed away | 10:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | so they actually got 6 reactor blocks plus 6 SFP and while they were staring at block1,3 reactor, the SFP's at #4, #3, #4, #6 are BBQing their stupid asses | 10:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | #4, #3, #5, #6 | 10:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | I just wonder if and when the SFPs at #1, #2 will catch fire | 10:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer | nidO: near miss. "3" higher and the bullet had only messed up his hairstyling. Almost luck" | 10:29 |
| lofty306 | too embarasing and the japanese dooont like being embarrased.... also doooooont want any video of what they might of done wrong when allthis goes to court | 10:29 |
| lofty306 | they dont want to make the BP mmistake | 10:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | they are so stupid they don't realize they already are "dead" and there's no face left to lose | 10:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | like in WW-II | 10:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | beter die than surrender | 10:31 |
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| dashavoo | Morning | 10:32 |
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| RST38h | Once again, not stupid, just different from you | 10:32 |
| lofty306 | they said there is 130ton spent pool at #4 90ton at #3, #2, #1 150ton aat #5 and 160 ton at#6 | 10:32 |
| RST38h | And I doubt good old Germans behaved any different at the end of WWII | 10:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | \o/ | 10:33 |
| RST38h | Also having a strictly hierarchical society | 10:33 |
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| mece | Wtf? Discussion taken a turn for the godwin? | 10:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | umm, well point taken, though I don't agree 100% | 10:33 |
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| RST38h | mece: Nah | 10:33 |
| mece | aah japan. ok. I just opened the windows and saw wwii and germans :D | 10:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | there must be a reason they were allied in WW-II | 10:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | though to me it seems over there really little has changed in mentality since, even when here not everything is sunshine | 10:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, in WW-II they've had tackled the friggin plant on day0 with 30000 voluntary kamikaze soldiers that had created an auxiliary powerline from next town with their own bodies | 10:39 |
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| lofty306 | hahaha | 10:40 |
| lofty306 | now the seem lazy taking a week | 10:40 |
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| lofty306 | prob waitiing for the ge gensets | 10:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I think RST38h has hit the point, when the generators failed they probably looked at the batteries, then cooked a tea and decided by a game of majong who's the asshead to call 'dady' and ask what to do now | 10:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer | as that's their only option anyway, really. No at-site competence, everything has to get nodded off by dady | 10:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | and the only stupids were those who thought plans for emergency management based on such a strictly hierarchical structure could ever work | 10:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | two german engineers visited blocj 5 or 6 when the quake stroke. Was really funny to listen to their reports how the japanese acted despite a mag9 quake going on | 10:55 |
| RST38h | Doc: Actually, this is not how it works in these societies | 10:55 |
| RST38h | Doc: When they figured out that the things are bad, their manager must have told them to act lively, carry water in buckets if needed | 10:56 |
| RST38h | Doc: Then prayed to his gods and called his immediate manager to report the clusterfuck | 10:56 |
| RST38h | Doc: In the most neutral, optimistic tone possible ("A minor problem with overheating, we are working on it, will be fixed in no time") | 10:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and now we are at the rot of the issue | 10:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | root even | 10:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | rotten root maybe | 10:59 |
| RST38h | Absolutely the same algorithm will be executed at each level of the hierarchy, actually | 10:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | there's no room for asian politeness when messing with a critical reactor | 10:59 |
| RST38h | So, yea, you can call it a root, but it is happening at the whole length of the root | 10:59 |
| RST38h | Once, again, it is *not* "asian politeness". Germans or Soviets would exercise absolutely the same scheme | 11:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm severly afraid you are right on this one | 11:01 |
| RST38h | With small differences in the outcome (Japanese would commit seppuku, Germans would be shot, Soviets imprisoned in Siberia) | 11:01 |
| lofty306 | the 3stooges scheme? | 11:01 |
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| lofty306 | wil time to sennnd in HomerSimpson | 11:03 |
| lofty306 | *well | 11:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | nah, that's for sure a cultural difference. Here in D at least the man with the hat on would eventually get a brain and ask military to *immediately* clean the roads with tanks, use 20 sikorky skycranes to drop generator containers there, and have the navy sent a huge ferry to provide power in the long term and unlimited amount | 11:03 |
| RST38h | Doc: I am not talking about NOW, I am talking about 30s-40s | 11:04 |
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| RST38h | Doc: I mean, in 1986, they also did not marinate the news for more than a few days | 11:04 |
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| RST38h | In comparison, for some 60-70s Soviet disasters we *still* do not have full disclosure | 11:06 |
| lofty306 | heh... the soviets the meltdowwn kings | 11:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | the critically kings | 11:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | citicality | 11:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | wasn't there a whole mine to blow up with some massive H2 or even criticality event, in the 50s/60s, in east USSR? | 11:08 |
| ruskie | I guess I'll have to put all this on ignore if I don't want to hear about it.... getting tired of it... | 11:08 |
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| lofty306 | they put out a mine fire with a nuke | 11:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | RST38h: >>On 10 December 1968, Mayak (Russia),...<< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticality_incident | 11:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | >> The shift supervisor then deceived the radiation control supervisor and entered the room of the incident and possibly attempted to pour the solution down a floor drain... | 11:12 |
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| RST38h | Doc: Just one of many | 11:13 |
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| RST38h | Doc: See? Exactly acording to the scenario I just described! | 11:13 |
| * RST38h strokes his crystal balls and cackles | 11:13 | |
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| lofty306 | lol poours it doowwn the drain | 11:15 |
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| alterego | Anyone having probs with tmo? | 11:24 |
| alterego | Ah, started working again. | 11:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | MEH, JP minister: "extremely high radiation levels, 4mSv/h" Sissies! | 11:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I doubt you'd notice *any* adverse immediate effects at 4mSv/h | 11:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer | after 200h you probably get real problems | 11:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | like the liquidators in Chernobyl got after 30s | 11:27 |
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| lofty306 | alterego, i drop off tmo now and then aand haave to just reboot the thiing and all is fine | 11:32 |
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| lofty306 | though i think that is the software | 11:32 |
| alterego | Neah, the browser sometimes doesn't refresh properly. | 11:33 |
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| alterego | jus ttyped in t.m.o again and it worked | 11:33 |
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| flexxxv | Hey can I integrate my Maemo SDK scratchbox enviroment to eclipse?(So that it just executes inside the scratchbox) | 11:38 |
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| flexxxv | And another question: Is there any qt designer that can preview directly in maemo 5 style? | 11:40 |
| crashanddie | what is it with stupid newbie questions these days? Is Google broken or something? | 11:40 |
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| lofty306 | hahaaha | 11:42 |
| flexxxv | crashanddie: hmm. no. I did some research. I found some answers. some where for maemo 4. I couldn't find any qt designer that does what I would like. Maybee I'm not doing enough research. But I hate to set everything up to see after it that there is an better solution... | 11:43 |
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| crashanddie | woops, wrong button | 11:44 |
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| chem|st | flexxxv: qt creator has | 11:49 |
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| flexxxv | chem|st: thx! I tried qt designer... | 11:50 |
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| RST38bis | Education Department officials are threatening school principals with lawsuits if they fail to monitor and curb students' lunchtime chat and evening Facebook time for expressing ideas and words that are deemed to be harassment of some students. | 11:53 |
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| Venemo_N900 | morning | 12:09 |
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| merlin1991 | morning Venemo | 12:20 |
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| Venemo_N900 | hey merlin1991 | 12:22 |
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| SpeedEvil | vbnmkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkm..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.l | 12:28 |
| merlin1991 | yes? | 12:31 |
| FauxFaux | That's what merlin1991 is called at the weekend. | 12:31 |
| SpeedEvil | That was me dropping a cup - thankflly empty - on my keyboard looks like. | 12:32 |
| alterego | Heh | 12:32 |
| alterego | I'd imagine it'd be a lot longer and more interesting if the cup was full | 12:33 |
| alterego | with intermittant "f*ck" and "b*stard coffee" | 12:33 |
| FauxFaux | A being rewired to star 2/3rds of the time? It's more likely than you think. | 12:33 |
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| flexxxv | stupid question: how should I load dependencies into qtcreator? | 12:50 |
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| RST38bis | stupid answer from google: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qtcreator-2.1/creator-build-dependencies.html | 12:51 |
| RST38bis | can be obtained by typing "qtcreator dependencies" into http://www.google.com/ | 12:51 |
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| flexxxv | RST38bis: that makes me feel silly | 12:55 |
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| flexxxv | So I need to load in packages like libvorbis manually? If I would build it normally under scratchbox I would do apt-get install libvorbis-dev | 12:58 |
| flexxxv | I think I need to learn some morge basic knowledge, before trying too complex things ;) | 12:59 |
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| FIQ|n900 | excuse me, what time is it? | 13:01 |
| FIQ|n900 | my phone resetted randomly, and don't have any clock near | 13:01 |
| FIQ|n900 | (in GMT+1) | 13:01 |
| FauxFaux | Google. | 13:02 |
| ruskie | Thu Mar 17 12:02:42 CET 2011 | 13:02 |
| FIQ|n900 | thanks | 13:03 |
| flexxxv | http://www.calculatorcat.com/free_calculators/world_clock.phtml | 13:03 |
| flexxxv | sry. I thought it used server time | 13:03 |
| FIQ|n900 | hm | 13:04 |
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| FauxFaux | Hah. | 13:04 |
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| lardman | morning chaps | 13:18 |
| * lardman wonders why qsql error messages are so unexplanatory, perhaps it's just sqlite in general | 13:20 | |
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| pupnik_ | morning lardman :) | 13:27 |
| lardman | hi pupnik_ | 13:27 |
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| flexxxv | I really feel stupid... How can I install dependencies I need in the maemo build enviroment of qt creator? I can build for desktop with no problems. Or am I trying it the wrong way? Sry, for these noob question. | 13:28 |
| pupnik_ | 04:56 <+k*****> same with the cryptic error messages - its to keep SQL ppl high paid | 13:30 |
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| lardman | flexxxv: what kinds are things are missing? | 13:30 |
| pupnik_ | flexxxv: i've read from someone else that the new qt creator somehow lacks the n900 build target | 13:30 |
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| flexxxv | I have the build target. But I need some libs like libvorbis, liogg... So if I compile for Desktop they are of cause installed but for maemo not. I can't figure out how to install them. | 13:32 |
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| lardman | flexxxv: are you using scratchbox? Or MADDE? | 13:33 |
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| flexxxv | hmm. I just installed qtcreator and selected maemo build target | 13:34 |
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| flexxxv | so probatly MADDE? | 13:34 |
| lardman | God knows, I just make sure I have the right stuff installed in my desktop system | 13:34 |
| lardman | though this is a little troublesome for things like Qt Mobility | 13:35 |
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| trx | how can i capture my n900 screen in a video? | 13:35 |
| flexxxv | I also have the maemo SDK with scratchbox installed, but I thought nokia qt SDK would be the better way | 13:35 |
| trx | are there any tools for that in the repo? | 13:36 |
| lardman | I think you can point Qt Creator at the sb install too | 13:36 |
| lardman | trx: that's certainly doable but don't have any info offhand | 13:37 |
| trx | ok, i'll look into it, thank you | 13:37 |
| lardman | can be done with gstreamer directly afair, but I guess someone will have packaged it up | 13:37 |
| flexxxv | lardman: that sounds like a nice Idea :D | 13:38 |
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| lardman | argh, I do so hate SQL | 13:45 |
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| lardman | what's wrong with this?: INSERT INTO tablelist (sqlTableName, prettyTableName) VALUES ('test', 'test'); | 13:56 |
| lardman | hmm, damn, I see the problem, case issues | 13:57 |
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| pupnik_ | lardman: sql is something that changes you. not sure if it's for the better | 14:10 |
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| lardman | :) | 14:11 |
| lardman | I've no clue why adding in NOT NULL means my table fails to be generated | 14:11 |
| nidO | whats the query | 14:14 |
| pupnik_ | maybe all elements are NULL | 14:16 |
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| lardman | nidO: http://pastebin.com/6d2N1kRS | 14:21 |
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| lardman | what I really want to do is create a primary key column which autoincrements | 14:26 |
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| lardman | but if I remove the NOT NULL bit I get a NULL value in that column, which is probably not very useful as a primary key | 14:26 |
| lardman | otoh if I add it in, the table isn't created, which is even less useful ;) | 14:27 |
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| * lardman tries INTEGER PRIMARY KEY ASC | 14:28 | |
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| trx | lardman : http://pastebin.com/nXZtVFaA | 14:31 |
| trx | this works for men | 14:31 |
| trx | me* | 14:31 |
| macmaN | hey guys | 14:32 |
| macmaN | wondering about CFLAGS for N900 | 14:32 |
| macmaN | CFLAGS = -O2 -mcpu=cortex-a8 -mtune=cortex-a8 -fomit-frame-pointer -fsigned-char -mfpu=neon -mfloat-abi=softfp = win? | 14:33 |
| lardman | thanks trx will give it a go | 14:34 |
| lardman | macmaN: try and see | 14:35 |
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| crashanddie | cortex-a8? | 14:36 |
| crashanddie | On the N900 | 14:36 |
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| macmaN | got it from here http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?p=466914 | 14:38 |
| macmaN | n8x0 was correct | 14:38 |
| lardman | crashanddie: it is a cortex-a8 of coruse | 14:38 |
| lardman | course | 14:38 |
| crashanddie | I get confused with all the types of ARM there are | 14:39 |
| lardman | np me too | 14:39 |
| macmaN | ahh so the cflags are good | 14:39 |
| macmaN | ok going for it | 14:39 |
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| lardman | macmaN: you'll need to benchmark or find someone who has done some benchmarking | 14:40 |
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| macmaN | lardman: not a performance question actually, just trying to figure out how to create a crosscompiler | 14:41 |
| lardman | oh | 14:42 |
| lardman | that'll be fun ;) | 14:42 |
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| macmaN | about to put gentoo prefix on it actually | 14:42 |
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| lardman | bloody sql | 14:43 |
| lardman | still not working | 14:43 |
| lardman | urgh | 14:43 |
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| crashanddie | lardman, what's the problem, doc? | 14:49 |
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| lardman | just qsql not liking my sql commands | 14:50 |
| lardman | and giving crap errors | 14:50 |
| lardman | and just generally being crap | 14:50 |
| lardman | :) | 14:50 |
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| pupnik | 10 years ago i could have helped with the sql | 14:52 |
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| neal | How does the N900 do AGPS? The N900 does not support reporting neighboring cellular towers. What is it using instead? | 14:53 |
| pupnik | the connected cell tower? | 14:53 |
| lardman | SUPL | 14:54 |
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| neal | pupnik: You can't do triangulation with one tower... | 14:54 |
| pupnik | the tower knows its location | 14:54 |
| lardman | nor does it do triangulation afaiu | 14:54 |
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| lardman | The AGPS functionality consists of the N900 obtaining ephemeris and alamanac data for its current location as returned by the connected cell tower, afaiu | 14:55 |
| lardman | ephemeris being the location dependent one there | 14:55 |
| neal | I see | 14:56 |
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| neal | I'm actually a bit confused. | 14:58 |
| neal | The agps info is not sent via a TCP/IP connection. | 14:58 |
| lardman | how so? | 14:58 |
| lardman | yes it is | 14:59 |
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| neal | Hmm. | 14:59 |
| lardman | the N900 talks to a SUPL server somewhere, e.g. the Google one or the Nokia one, and tells it the cellid that it's connected to | 14:59 |
| neal | only the cell id? | 14:59 |
| lardman | yes, afaiu, I know that SUPL can do other things, but I don't think those are used here | 15:00 |
| neal | I thought you just said it downloads the ephemeris and almanac data. | 15:00 |
| lardman | yes, but the ephemeris data are location dependant | 15:00 |
| lardman | so the SUPL server needs to know what to generate/send to the device | 15:00 |
| neal | And that's what it is getting from the supl server? | 15:00 |
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| lardman | yes | 15:00 |
| lardman | there are other things that SUPL can do afair, like taking parts of the recorded GPS signal and brute forcing a location from them, but I don't think that's necessary if you have a rough location provided by the cell tower | 15:01 |
| lardman | and is also significantly more computationally expensive I'd guess | 15:02 |
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| neal | lardman: thanks for your help. | 15:05 |
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| lardman | neal: np | 15:07 |
| lardman | neal: what's your interest in this anyway? | 15:08 |
| neal | I'm building a location-aware network manager | 15:08 |
| ruskie | fun | 15:09 |
| neal | And I'd like more information than just the currently connected tower. | 15:09 |
| neal | Unfortunately, the modem on the N900 appears to either not implement or block queries for neighboring towers. | 15:10 |
| neal | I'm trying to figure out other inexpensive (in terms of battery power) sources of location information. | 15:10 |
| lardman | cool | 15:11 |
| neal | (I don't need the actual geographical location. I just need environmental features to create a fingerprint.) | 15:11 |
| lardman | so you're planning wifi fingerprinting too? | 15:11 |
| neal | If you have some ideas, I'd appreciate them. | 15:11 |
| neal | wifi scanning is expensive | 15:11 |
| pupnik | i've always wanted to visit japan | 15:11 |
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| pupnik | i bet you can get excellent deals for tourist packages right now | 15:11 |
| lardman | pupnik: especially if you have lead underpants and/or a degree in nuclear engineering | 15:12 |
| lardman | neal: I think everything will be expensive really | 15:12 |
| neal | neighboring towers are free | 15:12 |
| neal | assuming you can get them :-) | 15:12 |
| lardman | neal: shame you can't get other nearby cell tower info though | 15:12 |
| lardman | yeah | 15:12 |
| lardman | the info must lurk in the modem somewhere, just how to get it out if possible | 15:13 |
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| BCMM | neal: measure location of the sun, using the camera and accelerometers. compare with clock to get location. :) | 15:13 |
| BCMM | yes, i know the accelerometers aren't anything like accurate enough | 15:13 |
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| pupnik | i have nuclear certification yes | 15:13 |
| lardman | BCMM: if we had a digital compass that might work | 15:14 |
| BCMM | lardman: how is a compass the thing that makes a difference to that? | 15:14 |
| neal | One of the Nokia guys working on ofono told me "You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch | 15:14 |
| neal | the info is blocked in N900.You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch | 15:14 |
| lardman | BCMM: direction of sun | 15:14 |
| lardman | BCMM: otherwise you'd need to watch the entire day's worth to work out your latitude | 15:15 |
| lardman | actually that's wrong isn't it | 15:15 |
| BCMM | maybe, but i can see the correct answer in my head now | 15:15 |
| BCMM | all you'd get from that would be the elevation of the sun | 15:16 |
| BCMM | the angle between "down" and the sun | 15:16 |
| BCMM | without knowing which direction teh sun is, that describes a circle of possible locations on the earth | 15:16 |
| BCMM | probably, this is based only on visualising it | 15:16 |
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| BCMM | so yeah, you would need a compass too | 15:17 |
| lcuk2 | lardman, did you ever source a bluetooth compass? | 15:18 |
| lardman | if you can wait for noon, then you know some part of the problem, but that's not a very fast update rate | 15:18 |
| lardman | lcuk2: nope | 15:19 |
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| lardman | BCMM: basically using the n900 as a sextant | 15:19 |
| BCMM | lardman: yeah :) | 15:19 |
| lcuk | lardman, how does your phone know it is noon! | 15:19 |
| lardman | sun is at highest point in the sky | 15:20 |
| lardman | so it would have to watch the sun all day | 15:20 |
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| trx | what if there is an eclipse? :) | 15:21 |
| * lardman wonders whether he should switch this app to C++ rather than Python, is getting messy | 15:21 | |
| lardman | trx: well you could keep a db of eclipses for the next 100 years and use that info to locate yourself | 15:22 |
| AsiQue | trx: u can always use MADDE :-) | 15:22 |
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| trx | haha | 15:22 |
| achipa | if it's messy in python, it would be drain bramage in C++ :P | 15:22 |
| AsiQue | i think you mean... brain damage :-! | 15:22 |
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| lcuk | lardman, pure ASM | 15:24 |
| lardman | hmm, perhaps | 15:24 |
| trx | better use plain HEX | 15:24 |
| kerio | ucs-4! | 15:25 |
| lcuk | punchcard reader on n900! | 15:25 |
| kerio | no, even better | 15:25 |
| lardman | well the only reason to stick with Python really is things like beautiful souop | 15:25 |
| kerio | s/beautiful soup/lxml/ | 15:25 |
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| kerio | harder, better, faster, stronger | 15:25 |
| kerio | especially faster | 15:25 |
| lardman | it's the harder part that I don't like the sound of ;) | 15:26 |
| kerio | and the "fix broken shit" thing is just slightly less good than beautiful soup | 15:26 |
| kerio | nah, they're about the same in difficulty :) | 15:26 |
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| achipa | lardman: lcuk: actually, if you know the time, the length/direction of the Sun's shadow already tells you your latitude | 15:26 |
| achipa | (looking down, eh ? :) ) | 15:27 |
| kerio | lardman: http://blog.dispatched.ch/2010/08/16/beautifulsoup-vs-lxml-performance/ | 15:27 |
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| kerio | plus, BS is discontinued | 15:27 |
| lcuk | stylus makes a nice sundial! | 15:27 |
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| achipa | lcuk: lardman: though the ultimate geek-way for getting latitude would be from measuring the coriolis effect :) | 15:29 |
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| lcuk | achipa, that is an incomplete solution though, users on non rotating planets will be unable to use it | 15:31 |
| pupnik | lardman: | 15:31 |
| pupnik | looks like paris-tokyo airplane flight subjects you to 6 microsievert per hour | 15:31 |
| pupnik | "city official said 0.809 of a micro-sievert was measured between 10am and 11am in Tokyo today" | 15:31 |
| pupnik | if that's a representative sample, the flight to tokyo is 8x more radioactive than staying in 'nuclear tokyo' | 15:32 |
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| achipa | lcuk: there are no non-rotating planets :) | 15:34 |
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| SpeedEvil | pupnik: Compared with what nominal background? | 15:36 |
| * SpeedEvil hates ass-hats that don't specify units. | 15:36 | |
| FauxFaux | The UK press are having great fun printing the mSv scale, all the way up to EVERYONE DIES, with a tiny zoomed in bit at the bottom saying "actually, we're here". | 15:36 |
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| SpeedEvil | FauxFaux: link? Not seen. | 15:38 |
| yacc | Anyone got an idea why my N900 has troubles connecting to a WPA2-PSK(AES) Netgear WNR3500L (Netgear firmware) via WLAN? | 15:38 |
| FauxFaux | SpeedEvil: Apparently publishing the same thing on dead tree and on the internet is too challenging for sensationalist papers. | 15:40 |
| pupnik | SpeedEvil: it's rational to compare current elevated levels to other commonplace elevated levels | 15:40 |
| SpeedEvil | ah. | 15:41 |
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| lardman | achipa: I like it :) | 15:43 |
| lardman | kerio: thanks | 15:44 |
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| korhojoa | yacc, no idea, but i suggest you stick a better fw on it if it can take one. | 15:44 |
| * lardman wonders whether to keep coding or just go outside as the sun is out | 15:45 | |
| korhojoa | also, i suggest switching to enterprise wpa2 | 15:45 |
| kerio | keep coding! | 15:45 |
| lardman | :) | 15:45 |
| korhojoa | lardman, coding | 15:45 |
| yacc | korhojoa, for my home WLAN? | 15:45 |
| kerio | korhojoa: why enterprise? | 15:45 |
| korhojoa | the sun will give you skin cancer | 15:45 |
| korhojoa | yacc, yes | 15:45 |
| korhojoa | kerio, security | 15:45 |
| lardman | lol | 15:45 |
| yacc | korhojoa, lol. | 15:45 |
| korhojoa | :D | 15:45 |
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| korhojoa | i got it to work, so you can too. | 15:45 |
| kerio | korhojoa: wpa2 enterprise is that much better than wpa2? | 15:46 |
| yacc | korhojoa, if I remember right, I'm forced to run a second WEP network just for certain devices from Nintendo, ... | 15:46 |
| yacc | korhojoa, how many hours did you spent on it? | 15:46 |
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| korhojoa | kerio, well, per-user auth | 15:46 |
| kerio | s/certain devices/the nintendo ds/ | 15:46 |
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| kerio | which has a crappy online anyway | 15:47 |
| yacc | korhojoa, well I've got a WPA2-PSK and a WEP WLAN for the devices that cannot do WPA or guests, ... | 15:47 |
| korhojoa | yacc, i spent like a week on finding a working solution and then 15 minutes on setting all the devices up | 15:47 |
| korhojoa | i can tell you the working solution, and you won't need to spend a week | 15:47 |
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| korhojoa | nintendo devices don't do wpa? | 15:48 |
| korhojoa | that's pretty bad | 15:48 |
| lardman | hmm, funny how time evaporates, I've not done half as much stuff as I'd hoped to this week | 15:49 |
| yacc | korhojoa, well, I fear I would have to upgrade my firmware first, and OpenWRT does not provide images for my router :( | 15:49 |
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| yacc | korhojoa, as my routes seems to be missing the WPA-EAP option in it's configuration page, ... | 15:49 |
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| korhojoa | yacc, are there images for dd-wrt then? | 15:50 |
| korhojoa | it's not perfect, but a lot better than the default ones | 15:50 |
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| yacc | korhojoa, I think so, but then the whole thing is a delicate balance anyway. | 15:50 |
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| korhojoa | yacc, no eap? :E | 15:50 |
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| korhojoa | that's weak | 15:50 |
| korhojoa | even my old d-link 802.11b one did enterprise | 15:51 |
| yacc | E.g. our Archos tablets are very very sensible to the WLAN configuration, ... | 15:51 |
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| korhojoa | sensible? | 15:51 |
| yacc | korhojoa, well, that's a very diplomatic way to put it, I mean I spent a couple of weeks experimenting to find a setting where the tablets are reliably online, ... | 15:52 |
| yacc | korhojoa, let me put it like this, something is wrong in WLAN land, when I prefered to use a BT across the flat to do PAN/DUN networking, ... | 15:53 |
| yacc | over WLAN. | 15:53 |
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| khertan | Hello | 15:58 |
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| alterego | Aloha | 15:58 |
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| khertan | There is still some app developpers here ? | 16:10 |
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| RST38h | no, we have all died | 16:13 |
| lardman | well I wanted to go out into the sunshine but everyone told me not to, so yeah I'm still here too ;) | 16:14 |
| RST38h | moo lardman | 16:15 |
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| lardman | hey RST38h | 16:15 |
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| derf | Sunshine is dangerous. | 16:17 |
| lardman | derf: so I'm told :) | 16:18 |
| derf | Could get vitamin D poisoning. | 16:18 |
| lardman | lol | 16:18 |
| lardman | yeah, will have to steer clear of polar bear liver this evening | 16:18 |
| RST38h | and the bear himself, too | 16:21 |
| lardman | very true | 16:21 |
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| amigadave | maybe the polar bear just needs a hug | 16:21 |
| amigadave | think of all the lonely, sunburnt polar bears | 16:22 |
| jaska | cartesian bear | 16:22 |
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| vadmeste | Hello everybody. Is it possible to create an application under Maemo which registers itself for received SMS ? | 16:23 |
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| deno | guys | 16:30 |
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| RST38h | Hotel officials told police the man had repeatedly called hotel employees the "anti-Christ" and "spawns of Satan." | 16:30 |
| pupnik | hah | 16:30 |
| deno | by default, when compiling the kernel-power with dpkg-build, is used the rx51power_defconfig configuration? | 16:31 |
| lcuk | lardman, you need to go into the sunshine anyway to test your new azimuth calculations! | 16:31 |
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| BCMM | RST38h: as BB pointed out, why did he think Satan would mind a bit of fire? | 16:32 |
| RST38h | BCMM: By destroying His spawn, you stop Him in His tracks! | 16:34 |
| lardman | lcuk: well having to go outside might make me jump in the shower at leasrt | 16:36 |
| lcuk | heh | 16:37 |
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| deno | no one? | 16:47 |
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| vadmeste | Does Maemo application have permissions/capabilities like Android or Symbian ? | 16:48 |
| crashanddie | vadmeste, no | 16:49 |
| vadmeste | emm.. That's strange.. So Nokia Team verifies the behavior of applications before submitting it to the OVI store right ? | 16:50 |
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| vadmeste | s/it/them | 16:50 |
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| lardman | deno: look at debian/rules | 16:50 |
| deno | lardman, ok | 16:50 |
| deno | lardman, thx for the hint :) | 16:50 |
| lardman | np | 16:52 |
| deno | found it: DEFCONFIG := rx51power_defconfig | 16:52 |
| deno | lardman, thx :)) | 16:52 |
| lardman | good good | 16:52 |
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| deno | ok, how is possible that the compilation works with dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -sa without copying that configuration into the /arch/arm/config | 16:58 |
| deno | it's not normal o.= | 16:58 |
| deno | o.O | 16:58 |
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| lardman | does the makefile read it directly from the debian dir? | 17:02 |
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| lardman | bbiab | 17:04 |
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| merlin1991 | any qt gods here to help me? I'm trying to store an opengl extension method in a function pointer to user it later using http://doc.qt.nokia.com/stable/qglcontext.html#getProcAddress but I can't get the cast right so I can use it (or I define my function pointer wrongly I don't know) | 17:21 |
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| crashanddie | merlin1991, what language? | 17:23 |
| merlin1991 | c++ | 17:23 |
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| merlin1991 | hm he left :P | 17:23 |
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| crashanddie | merlin1991, can you show your code, and actual errors? | 17:24 |
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| merlin1991 | well I tried all sorts of stuff and always get compile time errors, but the main point is, that I'm using this function http://doc.qt.nokia.com/stable/qglcontext.html#getProcAddress wich returns void* and I need to cast that so I can use the return as function pointer | 17:26 |
| crashanddie | and we're not going to be able to help you unless you give us some specific examples that will allow us to deduce what kind of cast you need | 17:26 |
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| merlin1991 | I need to cast that to pretty much any type of function pointer since depending on what string I feed it I get back another opengl function (yay for the awesome windows opengl system) | 17:29 |
| lcuk | merlin1991, what is the function prototype that the pointer should represent? | 17:29 |
| merlin1991 | the very first one I need would be void (GLsizei n, GLuint *renderbuffers) | 17:30 |
| crashanddie | for example, you could have glCreateProgram = (PFNGLCREATEPROGRAMPROC)cont->getProcAddress("glCreateProgram"); | 17:30 |
| crashanddie | where cont is a QGLContext * | 17:30 |
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| merlin1991 | yeah I found lots of examples like that, but sadly the glext header for windows is missing most of the typedefs like PFNGLCREATEPROGRAMPROC | 17:32 |
| crashanddie | get an OS that works then. | 17:32 |
| merlin1991 | :D | 17:32 |
| merlin1991 | I'd love todo that :P | 17:33 |
| merlin1991 | so I need to know I have to put in the ( ) to create for example the pointer to the function with the signature (GLsizei n, GLuint *renderbuffers) | 17:33 |
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| merlin1991 | (so I can either write the ypedefs myself or copy paste stuff) | 17:34 |
| lcuk | merlin1991, yeah | 17:35 |
| lcuk | typedef int (*FUNCX)(int a,int b); | 17:36 |
| lcuk | FUNCX myfunc = NULL; | 17:36 |
| lcuk | myfunc = (FUNCX)getProcAddress("glCreateProgram"); | 17:36 |
| lcuk | printf("tada %i",myfunc(1,2)); | 17:36 |
| merlin1991 | thanks lcuk :) | 17:36 |
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| trx | i have a free closed source .so that i want to use with my free open source app | 17:58 |
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| trx | how should i distribute the .so | 17:59 |
| trx | with my app's .deb or? | 17:59 |
| inz | What does the license of the closed source .so say about redistribution? | 18:00 |
| trx | basicaly just free for non-commercial use | 18:01 |
| trx | i was asking about the .deb side | 18:01 |
| trx | am i allowed to send my app to the repo which includes a .so | 18:02 |
| crashanddie | in the non-free repo, probably | 18:02 |
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| trx | why not the free repo? its a free lib.. | 18:03 |
| crashanddie | it has nothing to do with the cost | 18:03 |
| trx | where could find out more about that? | 18:03 |
| inz | Depends on the definition of free | 18:03 |
| crashanddie | it's the licence | 18:03 |
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| trx | so what should do then, ask the author of the .so if he allows it or what? | 18:08 |
| trx | should i do* | 18:08 |
| crashanddie | erhm, that has nothing to do with it | 18:08 |
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| crashanddie | first of all, you need to include the licence of the binary with it | 18:08 |
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| trx | meh, its too much trouble then | 18:13 |
| trx | i wanted to create a "guitar amp" app | 18:13 |
| trx | guess its not going to happen :) | 18:13 |
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| jacekowski | inz: free as in freedom | 18:15 |
| jacekowski | inz: you can pack that so into .deb and upload it to non-free repo | 18:15 |
| jacekowski | inz: and create your app and upload it to free repo with dependencies for that non-free app | 18:16 |
| jacekowski | .so* | 18:16 |
| inz | jacekowski, you probably meant trx (at least apart from the first line) | 18:16 |
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| jacekowski | hmm | 18:19 |
| jacekowski | yeah | 18:19 |
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| trx | i guess ill have to ask for a permission to upload the lib there | 18:19 |
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| trx | i used it on Win 100 times, and i just supply the lib with my app | 18:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | trx: where from you got the n900-armel .so? | 18:20 |
| trx | damn | 18:21 |
| trx | i'm an idiot | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | thought so ;-D | 18:21 |
| lofty306 | :) | 18:21 |
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| trx | the lib isnt compiled for arm :( | 18:21 |
| trx | haha | 18:21 |
| neal | jacekowski: A while ago you said it was possible to get the neighboring cells but you didn't say how (http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-07-21.log.html). Can you tell me? | 18:21 |
| trx | DocScrutinizer thanks :) | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | nnp | 18:21 |
| jacekowski | neal: read next line | 18:22 |
| neal | I did and I don't know how. | 18:23 |
| neal | That's what I'd like to know. | 18:23 |
| neal | A nokia engineer told me that isi command is blocked on the n900. | 18:24 |
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| neal | jacekowski: Have you managed to get the information? | 18:24 |
| jacekowski | no | 18:25 |
| jacekowski | but these commands are not blocked | 18:25 |
| jacekowski | just there is no headers for libs | 18:25 |
| neal | which commands? | 18:25 |
| jacekowski | all of them | 18:25 |
| jacekowski | there is no headers and no docs | 18:25 |
| jacekowski | that's all | 18:25 |
| neal | interesting | 18:26 |
| neal | how do you know that? | 18:26 |
| lofty306 | hmmm | 18:26 |
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| jacekowski | neal: because i know | 18:26 |
| pupnik | very cool video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMiMGOg53Ec 7 years of gstreamer community development visualized | 18:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | neal: I asked for the needed support in isi like one year ago. Back when tekojo said he'll try to help, and asked some Nokian here to report back directly to us about what's state of the issue. Nothing ever happened then | 18:26 |
| neal | jacekowski: There is a recent patch to ofono to enable getting the neighbor info. | 18:26 |
| neal | http://www.mail-archive.com/ofono@ofono.org/msg09177.html | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | neal: yeah, but ofono isn't compatible with n900 | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | neal: n900 userland | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | you can use ofono but that would break lot of things already there | 18:27 |
| neal | the isi driver works on the n900 | 18:27 |
| neal | hardware | 18:27 |
| neal | and this is a hardware problem | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | yes | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | no | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | you can run maemo on n900 and get all info | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | meego* | 18:27 |
| jacekowski | on maemo you have closed userland that makes things hard | 18:28 |
| neal | except for the cells_req, which according to the nokia engineer is blocked | 18:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | what's cell_req? | 18:28 |
| neal | I'm willing to access it via an AF_PHONET socket | 18:28 |
| neal | NET_NEIGHBOUR_CELLS_REQ | 18:29 |
| SpeedEvil | neal: no, there isn't. | 18:29 |
| neal | it's 0x1A | 18:29 |
| neal | that message will get you the neighbor cells | 18:29 |
| SpeedEvil | neal: That's a patch - as I understand it - to enable ofono to support neighbour cells. | 18:29 |
| SpeedEvil | neal: It is _not_ a driver for the low-level modem. | 18:29 |
| SpeedEvil | If this was a message of a couple of months ago | 18:30 |
| neal | SpeedEvil: That's from March 7 | 18:30 |
| neal | so, 10 days ago | 18:30 |
| SpeedEvil | Not loading here. | 18:30 |
| SpeedEvil | Is it low-level? | 18:30 |
| SpeedEvil | I.E. talking directly to the modem? | 18:30 |
| SpeedEvil | Not just adding an ofono API? | 18:30 |
| neal | it uses the linux AF_PHONET socket API | 18:30 |
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| neal | jacekowski: The Nokia engineer said: "You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch the info is blocked in N900." | 18:32 |
| neal | jacekowski: Are you saying this is a firmware problem? | 18:32 |
| neal | jacekowski: Or what's the issue? | 18:32 |
| SpeedEvil | The modem firmware has to support it. | 18:32 |
| SpeedEvil | If the modem firmware does not support it, you're screwed. | 18:33 |
| neal | SpeedEvil: jacekowski is convinced that it works on the N900 | 18:33 |
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| SpeedEvil | It's not loading for me, I don't know why. | 18:35 |
| SpeedEvil | I hope jacekowski is right, but I don't have any reason to believe that he is. | 18:35 |
| SpeedEvil | (I don't have any reason to believe the other too) | 18:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | neal: jacekowski knows a friggin lot about what BB5 celmo firmware is doing. I'd tend to believe what he says, though I'd appreciate he'd elaborate | 18:37 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and for the Nokia statements: they also said "N900 *CAN NOT DO* usb-otg" and damn, they were right, and they never explicitly stated N900 can not do hostmode | 18:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | though they always phrased their answers in a way you'd think they meant exactly that, so I dunno if they know very exactly or not at all what they say | 18:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer | neal: "the ISI cmd is blocked..." might mean it's not implemented in the isi lib that's talking to cellmo | 18:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | the last info from tekojo regarding this was along the line "I asked MrXY of Nokia-cmt and he said they could consider to implement it into some library" | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | IIRC | 18:44 |
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| neal | DocScrutinizer: Good point. | 18:47 |
| neal | DocScrutinizer: I'll continue trying. Thanks for your help. | 18:48 |
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| neal | DocScrutinizer: Also, I wasn't doubting jacekowski, I just want him to elaborate as well | 18:48 |
| * SpeedEvil pokes jacekowski with a tomato. | 18:48 | |
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| timeless_xchat | so, if anyone ever plans to write an application | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | neal: so please stay with us and share all your steps taken and findings. I'm sure there are more than just me wo'd love to contribute and help, and also want to see servicemode working on BB5/maemo-N900 | 18:49 |
| timeless_xchat | and provides an action which takes a long time to complete | 18:50 |
| * DocScrutinizer pokes jacekowski with a sharp stick | 18:50 | |
| dashavoo | Sorry to jump late into the conversation, but what *is* neighbour cell whateveritwas you were talking about? | 18:50 |
| * SpeedEvil pokes timeless_xchat, and waits for the next sentance. | 18:51 | |
| timeless_xchat | please don't provide a big hit region which enables the user to quickly dimiss the dialog and lose the work | 18:51 |
| SpeedEvil | dashavoo: the cell is the 'router' your phone is connected to. | 18:51 |
| * timeless_xchat eyes HAM's restore feature | 18:51 | |
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| SpeedEvil | dashavoo: Neighbouring cells are ones it can 'see' - but is not connected to. | 18:51 |
| BCMM | dashavoo: i don't really know what they're talking about either, but a GSM phone knows which other cells are in range and is ready to switch over if they get stronger than the one it's using | 18:51 |
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| BCMM | (it knows which frequencies to check because the cell in use tells it how to find the neighbours) | 18:52 |
| ZogG | рун пгны | 18:52 |
| dashavoo | SpeedEvil, BCMM, thanks, I think I can put it all in context now :) | 18:52 |
| ZogG | hey guys | 18:52 |
| SpeedEvil | dashavoo: Knowing the neiighbouring cell - and more information about them as is also available - such as timing information - can enable you do do rapid positioning 'free' - and with zero additional power usage. | 18:52 |
| ZogG | happy patricks | 18:52 |
| SpeedEvil | Sure - the positioning may only be to within a few tens of meters, but that may be fine. | 18:52 |
| dashavoo | SpeedEvil: ooh, nice, I can see why that would be good | 18:52 |
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| dashavoo | ok, as being as everyone seems to be around at the moment, and I'm off home in a minute anyway... I noticed that the power kernel supports mesh networking, does anything actually use it? | 18:53 |
| SpeedEvil | The OLPC can. | 18:54 |
| SpeedEvil | I don't know how much that's used though. | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | I considered writing an app that does mesh via BT/WLAN for areas where authorities like to switch down internet every now and then | 18:55 |
| dashavoo | DocScrutinizer: that would be cool | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | of course it would need several other properties, like signature and loose routing and authentication and whatnot, to be really useful | 18:56 |
| dashavoo | Somebody told me something about an android application that uses mesh networking for that type of situation, which is what piqued my interest in it | 18:56 |
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| dashavoo | OK, home time :) | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | o.O damn, I didn't know they beaten me once more. MEH! | 18:57 |
| dashavoo | DocScrutinizer: aww | 18:57 |
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| dashavoo | DocScrutinizer: if you could get it to co-operate, that would be even better ;) | 18:57 |
| pupnik | Sister for sale! Sister for sale! One crying and spying young sister for sale! | 18:58 |
| timeless_xchat | speedevil, where you going to ask me something? | 18:58 |
| dashavoo | bye for now | 18:58 |
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| BCMM | dashavoo: if only we could have up-to-date kernels... version 2.6.33 includes the B.A.T.M.A.N. protocol | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | now that should be BORING simple, if that project is worth it I.E. it's FOSS | 18:58 |
| SpeedEvil | timeless_xchat: I was referring to the time delay between you posting '(04:49:15 PM) timeless_xchat: and provides an action which takes a long time to complete' - and the next line. :) | 18:59 |
| timeless_xchat | ah :) | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | BCMM: ever tried to backport recent kernels? | 19:00 |
| timeless_xchat | i'm in a small room in a session, and slowly typing (blindly) while listening | 19:00 |
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| BCMM | DocScrutinizer: no, why? | 19:00 |
| SpeedEvil | :) | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | shouldn't be TOO much that isn't backward compatible | 19:00 |
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| BCMM | DocScrutinizer: i wasn't saying "somebody ought to have done it" | 19:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I'm saying you ought to have tried it ;-D | 19:01 |
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| BCMM | (well, apart from it would be cool if nokia was mantaining its drivers, which is of course ridiculous) | 19:01 |
| BCMM | DocScrutinizer: why, what's it like? | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | dunno, I guess you need a few old libs and cling to a few old /sys pathnames | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | can't see any major subsystem getting binned on 2.6.3x | 19:02 |
| BCMM | DocScrutinizer: oh, i thought you were claiming experience and suggesting i wouldn't say such things if i knew what it was like or something | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah, I'm honestly suggesting you start such a project. Much appreciated | 19:03 |
| BCMM | yeah, it would be pretty cool. .33 has some patches that should improve responsiveness on almost any system under heavy load | 19:03 |
| BCMM | unfortunately i am nothing like a kernel hacker | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | you might want to ask the SHR dudes on #openmoko-cdevel about what they got so far | 19:03 |
| BCMM | DocScrutinizer: i don't really know what the barriers are - the kernel claims to be untainted, so i guess there aren't any binary drivers compiled against a specific version | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | aiui they are experimenting with 2.6.36/7 (??) but not for N900 so far | 19:05 |
| BCMM | DocScrutinizer: is the only serious issue that there is closed userspace that expects sysfs stuff to be in specific locations? | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, I think so | 19:05 |
| BCMM | what i said 33 i didn't mean 33 | 19:05 |
| MohammadAG | MeeGo uses .37 | 19:06 |
| MohammadAG | (on the N900) | 19:06 |
| BCMM | DocScrutinizer: is there any chance of simply modifying the binaries to adjust the sysfs paths? | 19:06 |
| timeless_xchat | grr, i can't install bluemaemo because of a conflict over libeina0 | 19:06 |
| BCMM | or are the new paths longer? | 19:06 |
| BCMM | yes, i know that would be a licensing can of worms | 19:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | BCMM: a nice idea, I'll ponder about it | 19:06 |
| MohammadAG | longer is an understatement | 19:07 |
| BCMM | but a binary patch could be applies on teh device | 19:07 |
| BCMM | ah | 19:07 |
| MohammadAG | I wouldn't worry about bme or mce | 19:07 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: the new sysfs paths are much longer? | 19:07 |
| MohammadAG | and more confusing, at least to me | 19:07 |
| MohammadAG | I felt lost in sysfs, unlike on 2.6.28 | 19:08 |
| BCMM | i guess that would pretty much prohibit modifying string literals in the binaries? | 19:08 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: so which important stuff moved? | 19:08 |
| MohammadAG | depends, which binaries? | 19:08 |
| MohammadAG | all paths changed, in one way or another | 19:08 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG 2.6.28 is so ooold | 19:08 |
| ZogG | it's os yesterday | 19:08 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG, less confusing though | 19:08 |
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| BCMM | MohammadAG: dunno; whichever the ones with hardcoded sysfs stuff are | 19:08 |
| MohammadAG | 2.6.38 is shit, at least on my laptop | 19:08 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG what aer you trying to do? | 19:09 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: in which respects? | 19:09 |
| MohammadAG | nothing | 19:09 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG i have 38 now | 19:09 |
| MohammadAG | it can't resume from standby | 19:09 |
| ZogG | and 37 on laptop | 19:09 |
| MohammadAG | or from hibernate | 19:09 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: "I wouldn't worry about bme or mce" in what way? | 19:09 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG, you have it on laptop | 19:09 |
| MohammadAG | BCMM, they were updated for MeeGo | 19:09 |
| ZogG | and didn't bother to set it up =) | 19:09 |
| MohammadAG | yes, I have it on my laptop | 19:09 |
| MohammadAG | I went back to .35, a bit more stable | 19:10 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: using tuxonice/suspend2 patches? | 19:10 |
| MohammadAG | oh and only one core is visible on .38 | 19:10 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG, are you using stable or unstable? | 19:10 |
| MohammadAG | it's an i5 ffs... | 19:10 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG, natty kernel | 19:10 |
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| ZogG | MohammadAG you have i5 ? | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | 2 i5s | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | a desktop and a laptop | 19:11 |
| ZogG | damn you | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | bought the laptop from jordan, 2000NIS | 19:11 |
| ZogG | what laptop? | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | it cost 7000 here when I bought it | 19:11 |
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| MohammadAG | HP dv6-2152ee | 19:11 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG, maybe you buy me one? | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | basically, Israel's prices suck | 19:11 |
| MohammadAG | I'm not going to jordan anytime soon :P | 19:12 |
| * RST38h is getting a distinct feeling that .IL sucks badly | 19:12 | |
| MohammadAG | heh | 19:13 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: just saying, AFAIK tuxonice is still at .38, so your hibernation will indeed suck | 19:13 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG, talk to me when you do | 19:13 |
| BCMM | i mean, still at .37 | 19:13 |
| BCMM | so either you're using vanilla suspend, which sucks, or you're using an experimental tuxonice patch | 19:13 |
| ZogG | BCMM, do you use gentoo-sources? | 19:14 |
| BCMM | ZogG: sys-kernel/tuxonice-sources | 19:14 |
| ZogG | BCMM, just for hibirnate? | 19:14 |
| BCMM | ZogG: which has the gentoo-sources +tuxonice | 19:14 |
| ZogG | BCMM, seriosly? | 19:14 |
| BCMM | ZogG: hibernation is the only difference between that and gentoo-sources | 19:14 |
| ZogG | i may switch | 19:14 |
| ZogG | on laptop | 19:15 |
| BCMM | ZogG: which bit provokes incredulity? | 19:15 |
| BCMM | ZogG: the only downside is that it lags slightly behind vanilla | 19:15 |
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| BCMM | any right now, it lags behind gentoo- a little too | 19:15 |
| BCMM | ZogG: gentoo and vanilla are both at .38, tuxonice is at .37 cause of upstream | 19:15 |
| BCMM | ZogG: eix sys-kernel/tuxonice-sources, it's right there in the description | 19:16 |
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| BCMM | "TuxOnIce + Gentoo patchset sources" | 19:16 |
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| ZogG | i don't mind on 37 on laptop | 19:16 |
| BCMM | it doesn't lag too far anyway | 19:16 |
| ZogG | BCMM, why don't they include it in vanilla? | 19:17 |
| BCMM | ZogG: politics... | 19:17 |
| BCMM | ZogG: iirc, they want to be in the kernel.org kernel | 19:17 |
| BCMM | ZogG: but somebody doesn't agree with how their doing thigns | 19:17 |
| BCMM | wants to move more stuff to userspace, i think | 19:17 |
| BCMM | ^they're doing things | 19:17 |
| BCMM | i don't think there's any disagreement that it beats the existing suspend support; it's just that somebody is working on a supposedly superiour replacement | 19:18 |
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| BCMM | ZogG: the alternative, more user-space-ish, suspend implementation is uswsusp | 19:20 |
| ZogG | but it's the only thing that works | 19:20 |
| MohammadAG | I wish the N900 had suspend to RAM | 19:20 |
| MohammadAG | I don't mind DocScrutinizer's battery swap method, but it needs a wall charger, and a wall | 19:21 |
| ZogG | does it? | 19:21 |
| BCMM | ZogG: what is? tuxonice? | 19:21 |
| ZogG | yes | 19:21 |
| pupnik | a better way to suspend/resume apps would be great | 19:22 |
| BCMM | ZogG: yeah, it works much better than anything else right now | 19:22 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG, what about air charger and air | 19:22 |
| macmaN | hum | 19:22 |
| ZogG | BCMM, i hate politics | 19:22 |
| MohammadAG | ZogG, not much air in the atmosphere | 19:22 |
| BCMM | ZogG: imho, the objections to it are too philosophical | 19:22 |
| ZogG | people are tarded | 19:22 |
| BCMM | pragmatically, it wins | 19:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: N900 has s2ram, SpeedEvil tested it, and I don't see how that helps. And my hotswap works with external battery packs as well | 19:22 |
| BCMM | dunno why this is a problem, because from where i'm standing, that's what Linux itself is | 19:22 |
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| ZogG | who is against it should do better than | 19:22 |
| BCMM | a decent balence between doing it right and actually doing it | 19:23 |
| BCMM | (compare with Hurd) | 19:23 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, suspend, swap battery, resume | 19:23 |
| MohammadAG | basically, I don't want to reload whatever i had opened | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | won't work, RAM as well needs power | 19:24 |
| ZogG | BCMM, i heard that if you want to maintaince somethign to kernel you need to use k&r book syntaxes (the book you told me about) | 19:24 |
| MohammadAG | it works fine with my laptop | 19:24 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG, why do we need suspend on n900? | 19:24 |
| BCMM | ZogG: yeah, i think that was one of the things Reiser fought with the kernel team over | 19:24 |
| MohammadAG | hmm, wtf am I saying | 19:24 |
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| MohammadAG | suspend to disk* | 19:24 |
| MohammadAG | my bad | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | MEH | 19:24 |
| ZogG | BCMM, he is in jail now | 19:24 |
| BCMM | ZogG: i know | 19:24 |
| ZogG | he i bloody killer | 19:25 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, but wait, it has suspend to ram? | 19:25 |
| ZogG | is* | 19:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yes | 19:25 |
| macmaN | what package does the deb command come from? | 19:25 |
| MohammadAG | how does that work? | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | ask SpeedEvil | 19:25 |
| MohammadAG | deb command? | 19:26 |
| BCMM | ZogG: i think i was incorrect, formatting standards wasn't the complaint about reiserfs4 | 19:26 |
| MohammadAG | there's no deb command | 19:26 |
| ZogG | BCMM, i think maintaince was | 19:26 |
| BCMM | ZogG: it seems a bit petty, but it's actually kinda reasonable to have a project like that use similar conventions througout | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | echo foo >/sys/bar | 19:26 |
| ZogG | as he was only one or something like that | 19:26 |
| BCMM | especially where it doesn't actually effect anything | 19:26 |
| macmaN | deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free | 19:26 |
| ZogG | and if he would stop there were noone to continue | 19:26 |
| macmaN | oh that goes directly into sources.list | 19:27 |
| macmaN | my bad | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: ^^^ | 19:27 |
| MohammadAG | hmm | 19:27 |
| BCMM | ZogG: nah, he had/has a company | 19:27 |
| ZogG | does he? | 19:27 |
| ZogG | didn't know about that | 19:27 |
| BCMM | ZogG: they're still trying to get reiser4 in the kernel | 19:27 |
| ZogG | company opensource or what? | 19:27 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: what was that about "not worrying" about mce/bme? | 19:28 |
| ZogG | BCMM, but they worked on it years and it still not even stable | 19:28 |
| ZogG | though people using it | 19:28 |
| BCMM | ZogG: yeah, the politics sucks a bit, but occasionally good stuff comes of it | 19:28 |
| BCMM | ZogG: after all, Xorg is a political fork... | 19:29 |
| MohammadAG | BCMM, they were updated for MeeGo, you don't need to change paths | 19:29 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: and meego versions can be used in maemo? | 19:29 |
| ZogG | BCMM, fork of Xfree? | 19:29 |
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| MohammadAG | if you backport 2.6.37, sure | 19:29 |
| ZogG | why don't we use meego's kernel? | 19:29 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: define "backport". what modifications would be needed? | 19:29 |
| MohammadAG | too much shit breaks | 19:30 |
| ZogG | is there any specific maemo releated in kernel in maemo that we don't have in meego? | 19:30 |
| MohammadAG | BCMM, a lot, it's not easy | 19:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer | what *exactly*? | 19:30 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: why would modifications be needed? hardware-specific patches that would need to be modified? | 19:30 |
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| ZogG | i don't get that too | 19:31 |
| ZogG | it's only kernel | 19:31 |
| BCMM | ZogG: yeah, XFree86 was developed in a not-very-public way, open but basically controlled by a small group of people | 19:31 |
| MohammadAG | the kernel isn't a big problem | 19:31 |
| MohammadAG | maemo is | 19:31 |
| ZogG | and there should be no software releated things | 19:31 |
| ZogG | so hardware si the same | 19:32 |
| MohammadAG | telephony functions will most likely break | 19:32 |
| MohammadAG | that retarded battery applet might break too | 19:32 |
| ZogG | BCMM, i like the revolution of ffmpeg team | 19:32 |
| BCMM | ZogG: the decision to change the license was the best thing to happen to X11 in ages, since the resulting fork ended up being developed much more actively | 19:32 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG, are those thing built in? | 19:32 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: why would they break? | 19:32 |
| MohammadAG | define built in | 19:32 |
| MohammadAG | cause they listen to hal, which is deprecated | 19:33 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: do you mean that the telephony driver wouldn't work on a modern kernel? | 19:33 |
| BCMM | ah, hal... | 19:33 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: it's deprecated, not gone | 19:33 |
| ZogG | BCMM, i like forks and branching but i like good stuff being merged to master branch | 19:33 |
| MohammadAG | telephony app will break | 19:33 |
| MohammadAG | MeeGo uses ofono | 19:33 |
| ZogG | and not that you have 5 branches and everyoe has things you want and you can't combine | 19:33 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: i use hal on a 2.6.37 kernel on my desktop | 19:33 |
| BCMM | (because i'm on an old version of KDE) | 19:33 |
| ZogG | MohammadAG, and maemo? | 19:33 |
| BCMM | MohammadAG: it will break why? | 19:34 |
| ZogG | BCMM, hal? | 19:34 |
| MohammadAG | BCMM, I'm not sure if bme has hal on MeeGo | 19:34 |
| ZogG | are you fucking srs? | 19:34 |
| MohammadAG | uses hal* | 19:34 |
| ZogG | hal had a good run | 19:34 |
| ZogG | at the end as it was working god with X finally it got deleted =) | 19:35 |
| ZogG | damn | 19:35 |
| MohammadAG | I need to figure out gstreamer... | 19:35 |
| BCMM | ZogG: iirc, kde 4.6 is the first KDE release that doesn't use HAL | 19:35 |
| BCMM | i'm still on 4.5 | 19:35 |
| ZogG | BCMM, you have flags =) | 19:35 |
| ZogG | USE=-hal =) | 19:35 |
| MohammadAG | basically, how to use gstreamer widgets in Qt | 19:36 |
| BCMM | it isn't compulsory, but it is required for GUI mounting/unmounting of removable media | 19:36 |
| ZogG | though i waited a lot for xfce4 to use udev insted of hal | 19:36 |
| ZogG | it wa or hal or mount manually =) | 19:36 |
| BCMM | like i said, they modifed Solid in 4.6 to not use HAL | 19:36 |
| ZogG | almost everyone did | 19:36 |
| ZogG | they use udev | 19:36 |
| BCMM | anyway, deprecated doesn't mean it doesn't work any more, so i still don't understand why telephony should break | 19:37 |
| ZogG | but latest X and hal were fine with autodetection my xorg.conf was empty, everything out of box | 19:37 |
| BCMM | "HAL is in maintenance mode - no new features are added." - it's not even unmaintained | 19:37 |
| APTX | as a neat side effectof dropping hal, the ability of setting a keyboard layout vanished yet again | 19:37 |
| ZogG | BCMM, as i understood maemo uses something that is not in meego kernel or changed with something and unleast you have source of dialing and other apps that are built in you can't fix them and you can't replace the | 19:38 |
| ZogG | APTX, not true | 19:38 |
| ZogG | APTX, i don't have hal and i manage good with keyboard setting even with no DE | 19:39 |
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| APTX | ZogG: lucky you | 19:39 |
| ZogG | $ wgetpaste /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-keyboard.conf | 19:40 |
| ZogG | Your paste can be seen here: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/355171/ | 19:40 |
| ZogG | APTX, ^ | 19:40 |
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| ZogG | its really simple | 19:40 |
| APTX | ZogG: tried that, didn't work | 19:40 |
| APTX | it was really simple before hal | 19:40 |
| ZogG | APTX cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf | 19:41 |
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| ZogG | APTX what os? do you have evdev? | 19:41 |
| APTX | not on linux now anyway | 19:41 |
| ZogG | x11-drivers/xf86-input-evdev | 19:41 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer, ping | 19:41 |
| Venemo | hey ZogG, how's your app? :) | 19:41 |
| APTX | just too painful | 19:41 |
| ZogG | x11-drivers/xf86-input-keyboard | 19:42 |
| ZogG | that's all you need | 19:42 |
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| ZogG | Venemo, didn't have time | 19:42 |
| Venemo | ZogG, :( | 19:42 |
| ZogG | Venemo, just played with label | 19:42 |
| Venemo | mhm | 19:42 |
| ZogG | going to add album art soon | 19:42 |
| ZogG | and playtime scrll | 19:42 |
| Venemo | ok | 19:42 |
| macmaN | is it possible to have python-2.6 on N900 right now? | 19:43 |
| ZogG | macmaN, which one we have? | 19:43 |
| APTX | isn't it there be default? | 19:43 |
| macmaN | can be an isolated instance, dont need to make it system wide | 19:43 |
| macmaN | 2.5.4 | 19:43 |
| macmaN | i am not aware of any package that gives this | 19:44 |
| ZogG | macmaN, do you have extras? | 19:44 |
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| macmaN | yes | 19:45 |
| macmaN | apt-cache search 2.6 has nothing | 19:46 |
| ZogG | 2.7, | 19:46 |
| macmaN | ? are you saying 2.7 is supposed to be there? | 19:48 |
| ZogG | macmaN meego has 2.6 | 19:48 |
| macmaN | im not seeig it | 19:48 |
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| macmaN | mkay | 19:48 |
| macmaN | so basically have to compile my own instance if i want it, it seems | 19:49 |
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| ZogG | RST38h, lol impad2, have you heard it? | 19:51 |
| ZogG | about? | 19:51 |
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| jacekowski | i'm back | 20:08 |
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| jacekowski | DocScrutinizer: i was playing with it couple months ago to get that data out of n900 but lack of libisi headers and amount of RE work required to get them all and understand how it's done sort of delayed that project beyond any reasonable date | 20:10 |
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| jacekowski | DocScrutinizer: but it looks like you may get that data with just at interface | 20:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | err just AT interface? | 20:12 |
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| jacekowski | it doesn't look like you can get all full nice data for all frequencies | 20:13 |
| jacekowski | it looks more like data for alternative cells to roam to | 20:13 |
| SpeedEvil | What do you mean by that? Can you extract the list of neighbouring cells, or not? | 20:13 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 20:13 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer51, I'm sure you'll know something about this | 20:14 |
| SpeedEvil | That's all anyone was expecting I think. | 20:14 |
| SpeedEvil | Well - hoping for. | 20:14 |
| Venemo | DocScrutinizer51, on the N900, what's the performance difference between fixed and floating point calculations? | 20:14 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: huge | 20:14 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: floating point on maemo is all emulated | 20:14 |
| Venemo | jacekowski, I know, but how much is "huge" in numbers? | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | magnitudes | 20:15 |
| Venemo | huh! | 20:16 |
| Venemo | so if I use fixed-point calculations, then my stuff will run more than 10× faster? | 20:16 |
| jacekowski | assuming that calculations are your main thing | 20:16 |
| jacekowski | but then even more than 10x | 20:16 |
| jacekowski | i would say more like 100x | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | if it's all just divisions and muls then yes | 20:17 |
| Venemo | well, Qt Graphics View uses lots of fp calculations | 20:17 |
| SpeedEvil | If you can use NEON, things may change. | 20:17 |
| SpeedEvil | Also - 100 may be pessimistic | 20:17 |
| SpeedEvil | 10 is probably optimistic though | 20:17 |
| Venemo | "Graphics View is built with the assumption that the user's hardware is able to provide reasonable performance for floating point instructions" | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | I gathered meego heads for hfp though | 20:17 |
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| jacekowski | Venemo: there are some numbers here | 20:18 |
| Venemo | even a 2x increase would be nice :) | 20:18 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: on real code http://people.debian.org/~zumbi/talks/fosdem2011-arm/ | 20:18 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: that does a lot of math but a lot of other processing | 20:18 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: and it gets like 2x faster | 20:18 |
| jacekowski | 16 minutes vs 7 minutes | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | which is what you *always* will get (2*) | 20:18 |
| Venemo | mhm | 20:18 |
| Venemo | so I was thinking of copying the QGV sources and replacing floats with fixed points | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | easily | 20:19 |
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| Venemo | I don't think that I'll use any precision, since the end results of the calculations are mapped to a screen whose size has an integer number of pixels | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | alsa dmix is using int32, afaik PA originally used all reals | 20:21 |
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| jacekowski | iirc there was talk about mixing in kernel | 20:21 |
| jacekowski | but there was no way to do it nicely without floats | 20:21 |
| jacekowski | and you can't do floats in kernel | 20:21 |
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| jacekowski | which is why we ended up with shit like PA | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | mixing doesn't need floats | 20:22 |
| pupnik | http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks "The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites such as Facebook and Twitter by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda." | 20:22 |
| pupnik | lolol | 20:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | ok, now whom to ban? :-P | 20:23 |
| Venemo | jacekowski, why are fixed points not enough for it? and why can't you use floats in the kernel? | 20:23 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: i don't remember | 20:23 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: it was just one post on one of kernel related mailing lists | 20:24 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: and you can't use floats in kernel for performance reasons | 20:24 |
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| jacekowski | Venemo: context switches out of kernel/to kernel would take much longer | 20:24 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: if it would have to save fpu stack | 20:24 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: which is huge | 20:24 |
| Venemo | mhm | 20:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | you really don't need nor want floats for audio processing generally | 20:25 |
| Venemo | jacekowski, I read your link. it talks about softfp vs. hardfp (and 40% difference which is real nice), but it doesn't talk about fixed points :) | 20:26 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: well, on maemo you only have softfp ( or just soft, i'm not sure ) | 20:26 |
| Venemo | jacekowski, sure | 20:26 |
| jacekowski | Venemo: and fixed points are done natively therefore would achieve performance of hardfp at least | 20:27 |
| Venemo | jacekowski, this is why I want to know how much I would gain by using fixed-point calculation | 20:27 |
| Venemo | jacekowski, fixed-points are calculated as integers as far as the CPU is concerned | 20:27 |
| jacekowski | yes | 20:27 |
| jacekowski | that's why i'm saying fixed points are done natively | 20:27 |
| Venemo | yes | 20:27 |
| jacekowski | therefore no need to emulate anything | 20:28 |
| Venemo | and it's usually reasonable to say that integer arithmetics is usually a lot faster than floating point. | 20:28 |
| jacekowski | like with softfloats | 20:28 |
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| Venemo | so fixed point should be even faster than hardfp | 20:28 |
| jacekowski | vfp on arms is quite fast | 20:28 |
| Venemo | mhm | 20:29 |
| jacekowski | but well, fixed will be faster | 20:29 |
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| derf | VFP on ARMs is _terrible_. | 20:30 |
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| derf | For example, Tremor is more than 3.3 times faster than libvorbis on an N900 (despite doing more arithmetic: it's somewhat slower on desktop-class hardware). | 20:35 |
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| FIQ|n900 | Why does Maemo reboot if i kill X? | 20:46 |
| pronto | becuase killing is wrong >:( | 20:46 |
| pupnik | because of watchdog | 20:46 |
| FIQ|n900 | Not that I'm in need of a framebuffer, but why? | 20:46 |
| FIQ|n900 | ok | 20:47 |
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| Lantizia | Lo... On wikipedia I just read this... £Even though MeeGo was initiated as collaboration between Nokia and Intel, the collaboration was formed when Nokia was already developing the next incarnation of its Maemo Linux distribution. As a result, the Maemo 6 base operating system will be kept intact while the Handset UX will be shared, with the name changed to “MeeGo/Harmattan”." | 20:50 |
| Lantizia | Does this essentially mean the N9 will run MeeGo/Harmattan and that it will continue to be Debian-orientated Maemo at heart but with a MeeGo UX on top? | 20:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer | actually not because of watchdog but because of dsme | 20:51 |
| MohammadAG | that's always been the case for Maemo 6 | 20:51 |
| MohammadAG | watchdog = dsme | 20:51 |
| MohammadAG | lifeguard as it's called | 20:51 |
| MohammadAG | killing X in R&D mode = dropped into a black screen (framebuffer console not in default kernel) | 20:52 |
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| Lantizia | MohammadAG, so surely this means the new MeeGo UX will be debian-packaged? | 20:52 |
| MohammadAG | MeeGo is RPM based | 20:53 |
| MohammadAG | Maemo 6 is debian based | 20:53 |
| MohammadAG | different OSs | 20:53 |
| MohammadAG | different openness | 20:53 |
| Lantizia | "As a result, the Maemo 6 base operating system will be kept intact while the Handset UX will be shared, with the name changed to “MeeGo/Harmattan”." | 20:53 |
| Lantizia | By "base operating system" I'm thinking Maemo 6 will continue to be debian and dpkg | 20:53 |
| Lantizia | if it's dpkg based... and the MeeGo UX is going on top... then it'll have to be in debian dpkg format no? | 20:54 |
| MohammadAG | yes, but MeeGo UX != MeeGo | 20:54 |
| Lantizia | I'm not saying it is | 20:54 |
| MohammadAG | and Maemo 6 != MeeGo | 20:54 |
| Lantizia | I'm not saying that either | 20:54 |
| MohammadAG | Maemo was and always will be debian based | 20:54 |
| Lantizia | I've been quite explicit about how I've phrased things | 20:54 |
| MohammadAG | Maemo 6 is just using MeeGo's UX | 20:55 |
| MohammadAG | but it's still maemo, and probably a bit more closed | 20:55 |
| Lantizia | Right so the N9 will run MeeGo/Harmatted (AKA Maemo 6) and will be Debian based and runs the MeeGo UX which will be install/upgraded via dpkg right? | 20:55 |
| jacekowski | there will be no N9 | 20:55 |
| MohammadAG | yes, and that ^ too | 20:55 |
| Lantizia | jacekowski, well Nokia have been claiming a MeeGo handset is still due - so the N9 surely? | 20:56 |
| jacekowski | no | 20:56 |
| MohammadAG | N950 | 20:56 |
| jacekowski | N950 | 20:56 |
| ShadowJK | Not convinced anyone would use MeeGo UX.. | 20:56 |
| MohammadAG | ShadowJK, long live cordia | 20:56 |
| Lantizia | ok so the N950 will run MeeGo/Harmatton... (formerly known as Maemo6)... a _Debian_ based OS that will run the MeeGo UX which will install/upgrade via apt/dpkg ? | 20:57 |
| ShadowJK | I mean, MeeGo *UX are like placeholders saying <dear bigcorp, insert random ui here> | 20:57 |
| Lantizia | is _that_ statement true? :D | 20:57 |
| MohammadAG | yes | 20:58 |
| Lantizia | Cool :) | 20:58 |
| MohammadAG | ShadowJK, true | 20:58 |
| Lantizia | So if... _if_ there is ever a Maemo 7 (properly known as... MeeGo/FuckKnows)... is it likely to leave Debian behind? | 20:58 |
| Lantizia | since Novell have an openSUSE version of MeeGo.... can't Nokia just have a Debian version of MeeGo (formerly known as Maemo lol) | 20:59 |
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| MohammadAG | nah, maemo will be maemo | 20:59 |
| Lantizia | but there is no more Maemo... there is only MeeGo/Whatever now | 20:59 |
| chx | there is a Maemo maintained by the community as best as they can | 21:00 |
| chx | this is my understanding. | 21:00 |
| ShadowJK | opensuse can't claim opensuse+meego is meego, and i dont think they can use the meego name | 21:00 |
| ShadowJK | so i dont see how nokia can call it meego either | 21:00 |
| Lantizia | no but they _can_ use the MeeGo UX | 21:00 |
| chx | well it's GPL so.... | 21:00 |
| Robot101 | <cynic>they pay more to the linux foundation?</cynic> | 21:00 |
| pupnik | WM7: Kill It With Fire | 21:00 |
| Robot101 | chx: software license != trademark license | 21:00 |
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| Lantizia | I'd rather see a range of MeeGo UX based distributions that are based/backed by your garden variety desktop distro makers (like openSUSE, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc...). Maemo happened to be Debian based, so Nokia can continue to make they're own variety of a MeeGo UX based distro using Debian at it's core right? | 21:02 |
| Lantizia | *their | 21:02 |
| Lantizia | i.e. Maemo continues... name slightly changed (again)... and Hildon is traded for MeeGo UX... the end. | 21:03 |
| Lantizia | MohammadAG, wishful thinking or am I on the nose here? | 21:04 |
| yacc | Lantizia, I think you overlook the detail that Nokia is turning from self-development to being one of a couple hardware-providers for MS? | 21:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer | WTF is an Opensuse-meego? | 21:04 |
| Lantizia | DocScrutinizer, openSUSE running the MeeGo UX | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | eeeww | 21:05 |
| Lantizia | just as MeeGo/Harmatten sounds like it's going to be Maemo running the MeeGo UX | 21:05 |
| Lantizia | i.e. still debian | 21:05 |
| Lantizia | yacc, yeah that hurts me inside :( | 21:06 |
| yacc | Lantizia, hence Nokia's announcements about their roadmap in the past were kind of vaporware-ish, but with the new course from the CEO downward, who can fathom what Nokia will deliver in n months? | 21:06 |
| Lantizia | yacc, I like to look at it as ... they got tired of critics moaning about Symbian, didn't think MeeGo was polished enough to replace Symbian yet... wanted $1 billion dollars... thought fine we'll have WP7 to replace Symbian only and if it goes tits up they can blame Microsoft and maybe Meego (still going on the Nxxx range) can be brought back in to the limelight | 21:07 |
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| Lantizia | even Apple made a deal with MS back in the 90's for a shit load of cash and non-voting shares... only to turn on them again in the end | 21:07 |
| Lantizia | this may be a temporary alliance of convenience | 21:07 |
| frals | http://sf2011.meego.com/program/sessions/harmattan-meego-community | 21:07 |
| yacc | Lantizia, if they had decided to abandon their developer base, they probably should have taken Android, and added Nokia services (they are one of the few companies that own digital maps for most of the globe) instead of loosing completely the control of the software stack. Or leave the Google services in and take the bribe that Google offered, ... | 21:08 |
| yacc | Lantizia, Well, if there wouldn't be the small detail that Mr Elop happens to be raised in the MS-way, .... | 21:09 |
| Lantizia | Nah... don't agree, I still like the idea that the Linux Foundation are setting the rules on what the minimum base OS should have... and the idea of all using the same mobile-orientated UX | 21:09 |
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| Lantizia | But I still want my choice in package management, so it's cool if you can get a MeeGo orientated distro from your preferred community (debian, ubuntu, opensuse, fedora, etc) | 21:10 |
| yacc | Lantizia, yeah, I said if they don't have the will to go with their own developers, then Android would make way more sense than MS, but ... | 21:10 |
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| Lantizia | my contract runs out in june... the samsung galaxy S II will be out then... will see what the situation is like then | 21:11 |
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| * pupnik agrees with yacc | 21:13 | |
| yacc | Lantizia, well, I personally always buy open phones, and use them with a discount provider ;) | 21:13 |
| pupnik | ex-microsoft man as president = evil inside (tm) | 21:14 |
| Lantizia | well the one thing I hated about meego at least won't be in meego/harmatten :P I'm happy | 21:14 |
| Lantizia | roll on the n950 :P | 21:15 |
| SpeedEvil | I hope the n950 is open enough. | 21:15 |
| yacc | pupnik, well, the real evil here is the Qt policy. As if they would be not able to provide libraries that allow all WP7 phones to run an application written with Qt, I mean it's possible even for Android devices, ... | 21:15 |
| SpeedEvil | I might be able to just about afford a n950. | 21:15 |
| pupnik | Lantizia: what is that? | 21:15 |
| Lantizia | pupnik, rpm's | 21:15 |
| SpeedEvil | But if it's not very open, I'm holding off for something else. | 21:15 |
| pupnik | ?! how do you know this? | 21:15 |
| Lantizia | pupnik, read the entire discussion that just finished lol | 21:15 |
| pupnik | is there news about "n950"? | 21:15 |
| MohammadAG | SpeedEvil, it won't be as closed as M5, but still :P | 21:15 |
| SpeedEvil | pupnik: don't think so. | 21:16 |
| RST38h | pupnik: cancelled? | 21:16 |
| MohammadAG | RST38h, doubtful | 21:16 |
| yacc | pupnik, OTOH, it's best Nokia tradition, I had to use an old E61 for 2 weeks while my N900 was replaced, and so I googled around a little bit, all the different versions of S60 where a nightmare for developers even back then, ... | 21:16 |
| pupnik | yacc: yes i'm using an e71 now for my phone (n900 for my phun) | 21:17 |
| MohammadAG | i hate how symbian lacks proper update support | 21:18 |
| yacc | So developing for Nokia phones has been always something for SM practitioners, with emphasis on the M. Why should being backstabbed by Nokia be something new, it's a tradition ;) | 21:18 |
| yacc | Although I wonder, I mean, AFAIK, Nokia still has no written contract with MS, ... | 21:19 |
| pupnik | maybe they can build nice hardware, people will hate the wm7, and we can run linux on them | 21:20 |
| RST38h | pupnik: expect ms boot loader to be locked to the gills | 21:21 |
| pupnik | ah | 21:21 |
| Lantizia | can you use qt on android? if qt creator could do that... and wm7 doesn't have it... but meego does... and symbian does... :) | 21:21 |
| RST38h | Lantizia: see Necessitas | 21:21 |
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| Lantizia | cool | 21:21 |
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| Lantizia | RST38h, shame google don't mandate it's inclusion as default | 21:22 |
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| MohammadAG | it's WIP | 21:22 |
| yacc | pupnik, I don't think so, because WP7 equals a very strict list of hardware requirements (which are said to be slightly dated, kind of 1-2 years compared to current Android/iPhone handsets), so if they don't get a special dispension from MS, they'll be able to produce more or less the same phones that are currently on the market, now with Nokia logo, and slightly more flash, and slightly more mega pixel then the others, and we offer it in a dozen colors, ... | 21:23 |
| pupnik | yacc: i think the 'esc button' requirement should have been part of the N900 | 21:23 |
| yacc | Lantizia, yeah, you can compile Qt apps for Android. AFAIK it works by creating a native app compiled to ARM, with some Java packaging so it looks like a nice Android app to the phone. | 21:23 |
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| Lantizia | yacc, this using necessitas? | 21:24 |
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| yacc | Lantizia, ? | 21:24 |
| Lantizia | yacc, what RST38h just said | 21:24 |
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| yacc | Lantizia, well, yes, I'd expect a MS bootloader to be a XBox360 style bootloader, including hardware destroying properties if you try to play games with it, ... | 21:25 |
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| Lantizia | yacc, wth are you on about? lol | 21:26 |
| Lantizia | http://sourceforge.net/p/necessitas/home/ | 21:26 |
| MohammadAG | efuses | 21:26 |
| Lantizia | that is what RST38h was on about | 21:26 |
| pupnik | at this point i should be supporting palm pre | 21:27 |
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| chx | yeah this is what i leaning towards too, not the HP Pre 3 but the Veer | 21:34 |
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| pupnik | In other news: Bulgarian Dog Spinning banned | 21:36 |
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| Proteous | fuck, what am I going to do now on Sat night | 21:38 |
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| pupnik | check youtube for bulgarian dog spinning | 21:39 |
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| Venemo | jacekowski, are you still here? | 22:18 |
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| mlwane | hello all | 22:26 |
| mlwane | can somebody tell me how to connect my n900 to the internet through usb please ? | 22:27 |
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| mlwane | on linux ubuntu 10.10 * :) | 22:30 |
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| mlwane | Venemo:are you there ? | 22:32 |
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| Venemo | mlwane, yes, I'm here | 22:33 |
| mlwane | would you please how to connect my n900 to internet through usb | 22:33 |
| Venemo | I don't know | 22:33 |
| mlwane | i have ubuntu 10.10 | 22:34 |
| Venemo | I've never done such a thing | 22:34 |
| mlwane | oh | 22:34 |
| mlwane | okay then :) | 22:34 |
| Venemo | you're better of trying to make an ad-hoc wi-fi if your computer has a wi-fi card | 22:34 |
| mlwane | thanks | 22:34 |
| mlwane | yeah i've done that | 22:34 |
| andre__ | mlwane, http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking | 22:34 |
| mlwane | but ad-hoc consumes lot of power ! | 22:34 |
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| mlwane | i've been trying that wiki | 22:35 |
| Venemo | mlwane, you connect your N900 to your laptop, then it'll charge through usb | 22:36 |
| * ShadowJK just did whatever he did before to connect phones to computer via bluetooth, except left out all the bluetooth specific steps of the guide | 22:37 | |
| mlwane | but am stuck at configuring ubuntu | 22:37 |
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| ShadowJK | I think that "N900_USB_networking" thing is not relevant for connecting to the internet on the PC using N900 as modem via USB | 22:37 |
| mlwane | yeah but i want to leave it connected for a pretty long period | 22:37 |
| mlwane | and that is not good for the battery | 22:38 |
| mlwane | am not trying to use n900 as a modem | 22:39 |
| mlwane | am trying to connect to the internet on the n900 through usb | 22:39 |
| mlwane | in the wiki article there is this point which i can not get .. | 22:41 |
| mlwane | "Create the file in /etc/udev/rules.d/99-nokia-n900.rules and put in the following" | 22:41 |
| Cor-Ai | where are GPRS data amount log files? or arn't that stored in files? | 22:42 |
| SpeedEvil | I think they are in gconf | 22:43 |
| Cor-Ai | ahh! will look! id like to back it up :p | 22:44 |
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| andre__ | mlwane, what is unclear with that point? | 22:59 |
| mlwane | the file | 23:00 |
| mlwane | i can't get what file should create ! | 23:00 |
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| yacc | mlwane: interested in some scripts for USB outbound networking? | 23:08 |
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| yacc | http://pastebin.com/MdPdcBFR and http://pastebin.com/dTMxKV1N take care of the N900 side. | 23:10 |
| yacc | As you'll notice there are some additional stuff in there, I like to start x11vnc on the n900 and vncviewer on my desktop while the USB connection comes up. | 23:10 |
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| mlwane | thanks a lot, i will have a look at the sites | 23:12 |
| andre__ | mlwane: the file to create is /etc/udev/rules.d/99-nokia-n900.rules in that step | 23:14 |
| andre__ | in case you have a user background "only" though you might not know about the underlying file structure, so it might look confusing | 23:15 |
| mlwane | so the directory will be "rules.d" and the file will be "99-nokia-n900.rules" yeah ? | 23:16 |
| yacc | http://pastebin.com/7YueEtHa <= that's the host side configuration, extra stuff in there | 23:18 |
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| yacc | mlwane, the rules are only if want to have a specific device name => if do not have such rules the N900 shows up as a generic usb0 device => if you have multiple devices that can act as an USB network device the rules thing is useful. | 23:19 |
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| mlwane | yeah i can see the device in the wired network section but it says that the device is not managed | 23:22 |
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| wazd | Hi all :) | 23:44 |
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| MohammadAG | that's weird, I wonder why hermes unmerged my contacts | 23:51 |
| kwtm | Hi. How can I find out the IP address of my N900 (connected by WiFi or 3G)? Prefer command-line if possible. | 23:51 |
| Venemo | ifconfig? | 23:52 |
| SpeedEvil | that will tell you the address inside the NAT | 23:52 |
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| SpeedEvil | http://whatismyipaddress.com/ | 23:53 |
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| Surjikal | Hey guys, I don't know if this is the right channel but... has anyone configured the n900 to send and recv SMS via bluetooth with a linux pc? | 23:56 |
| Surjikal | Files transfers are working fine with gnome-phone-manager | 23:56 |
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| Venemo | Surjikal, this is the right channel, yes | 23:57 |
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