IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2011-02-10

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DocScrutinizerthere's been some crossword program that combines arbitrary words from dictionary to form a crossword, but that's rather useless without proper descriptions of the words I guess00:00
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LjLDocScrutinizer: there is? does it create actual crosswords, or more like things where 90% of it is blank? because i've been looking for the former00:01
DocScrutinizerumm, dunno00:01
styleHi, I could use some help with maemo's terminals and it's mouse logic... why does it sometimes shows pointer icon and sometimes does not?00:01
DocScrutinizerI guess that depends on parameters, and dictionary00:02
LjLDocScrutinizer: i think the algorithm itself must also be pretty strong to generate a solid puzzle00:02
DocScrutinizerhmm, simple try and error plus the speed of a 2GHz CPU will do00:03
BCMMindeed00:03
BCMMit's just a few dictionary attacks, where a very large number of words are a legit password :)00:03
DocScrutinizerminimax strategy it's called iirc00:03
DocScrutinizerjust undo some "moves" if the results are poor in current step, use different words and evaluate a new set, compare to old and keep the better one00:05
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DocScrutinizeryou can also call it an algo based on evolution00:06
DocScrutinizerand given the fact you can search in dict using regex, it's probably like 100 lines of code00:08
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DocScrutinizeractually you don't even need any prog for that, except a spreadsheet for the form, and grep to find nice words to fill in00:17
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MohammadAGwhat's ##defocus? lol00:18
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javispedrodeFUDcus would have been better.00:18
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: /join will tell you00:19
MohammadAGI'd suggest #meego, /me hides00:19
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, no thanks, sounds like 4chan's /b/00:19
javispedrohttp://freenode.net/pounddefocus.shtml00:19
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trumeeMohammadAG, what happened to the mediaplayer you were developing. is it complete?00:22
Dhraakellianso... MediaBox or Rockbox?00:23
trumeeiirc the goal to finish that was in january?00:23
Dhraakellianafaict, Rockbox would be preferable if the controls/keybindings were improved00:24
Dhraakellian...and scrobbling worked00:24
* Dhraakellian wonders how hard it'd be to port over qtscrob00:24
trumeeDhraakellian, is Rockbox c++?00:24
Dhraakelliantrumee: C00:24
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BCMMMohammadAG: also, is it actually called Mohamediaplayer yet?00:24
trumeeDhraakellian, probably performs better than python Mediabox00:25
Dhraakellianyeah00:25
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trumeeDhraakellian, can it do ogg/internet radio?00:26
Dhraakellianand, assuming the keybindings get worked out, getting back and forth between database, current track/wps, and playlist should be a lot easier than mediabox's convoluted navigation00:26
Dhraakellianno network stack in Rockbox00:26
Dhraakellianbut it'll play pretty much any friggin' format you could ever throw at it00:26
Dhraakellian...so long as it's not DRM-encumbered00:26
BCMMDhraakellian: MediaBox or Rockbox for what?00:27
Dhraakellianjust general opinions of which is better00:27
Dhraakellianmediabox is shinier00:27
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thomasjfoxrumor has it next rockbox release on maemo will have embedded album art00:28
Dhraakellianand scrobbles (last I checked, RaaA/maemo's scrobbling wasn't working)00:28
Dhraakellianthomasjfox: does mainline Rockbox have that?00:28
thomasjfoxrumor has it next release will support scrobbling :)00:28
thomasjfoxDhraakellian: Yes, since 30 minutes or so00:28
Dhraakellianooooh00:28
Dhraakellian...not that I really care, since I use external image files00:28
Dhraakellianbut still, nifty for those who use it00:29
trumeethomasjfox, so Rockbox cannot do streaming radio/icecast?00:29
thomasjfoxtrumee: No network support (yet?)00:29
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trumeethomasjfox, in the maemo port or even in the main software?00:30
thomasjfoxtrumee: Main software00:30
Dhraakelliantrumee: remember that most DAPs don't have network hardware00:30
thomasjfoxtrumee: Rockbox's background is digital audio players like Archos or ipod00:30
Dhraakellianor Sansa00:31
BCMMyeah, i'm slightly confused at it being talked about as a userspace program00:31
Dhraakellianbut, yeah, it's only the RockboxAsAnApp targets that have network00:31
DhraakellianBCMM: first came the UI simulators00:31
Dhraakellianthen came Rockbox as an App00:31
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trumeeDhraakellian, what is scrobbling?00:32
Dhraakellianand the sims became more like SDL ports of RaaA, iiuc00:32
Dhraakelliantrumee: are you familiar with last.fm?00:32
BCMMso how does RockboxAsAnApp work? whole rockbox stack adapted for userspace, or just the GUI of rockbox on it's own?00:32
Dhraakellian(which was originally audioscrobbler)00:32
BCMMdoes is still play doom?00:32
trumeeDhraakellian, ah! used a little in amarok00:32
DhraakellianBCMM: I imagine it probably could play Doom00:33
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DhraakellianI think it's just the UI and codecs and such, but I really don't know the technical details00:33
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BCMM(it's kinda hilarious that there are *multiple* doom ports for the iPod classic)00:33
Dhraakellianregardless, RaaA runs on Maemo, even if the keybindings aren't the best00:34
Dhraakellian(yet?)00:34
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Dhraakellianhttp://svn.rockbox.org/viewvc.cgi?view=rev;revision=2924800:36
Dhraakellianand it's actually in Rockbox svn!00:36
Dhraakellianawesome!00:37
trumeeWhy do i need to insert usb cable multiple times before N900 recognises it and starts charging?00:37
piggzDhraakellian: i tried it, and struggled to exit it as the gui wasnt great atm :)00:37
Dhraakellianctrl+backspace00:37
Dhraakellianonly way to exti00:37
Dhraakellianexit*00:37
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Dhraakellianthink of that little X in the corner like a device's off button00:38
Dhraakellian:)00:38
thomasjfoxDhraakellian: Either that or we'll switch to windowed mode. This will make window switching easier for people who don't know CTRL+BACKSPACE00:39
Dhraakellianah00:40
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* Dhraakellian pauses a moment00:40
Dhraakellianoh, right, that's why your name looks familiar00:40
DhraakellianI recognize it from the forum thread00:40
Dhraakellian*facepalm00:40
Dhraakellian*00:40
thomasjfox;)00:40
Dhraakellianwhen's the next build due?00:41
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trumeethomasjfox, is this the current state, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GimMHlAvxRE00:41
thomasjfoxDunno, I wanted to fix the shutdown stuff first.00:41
Dhraakellianany progress on keybindings?00:42
thomasjfoxtrumee: Na, the video is crap. Rockbox is really usable right now. In fact I use it daily for 4h to 6h.00:42
DocScrutinizertrumee: that's a known problem that happened to me one out of 10..20 times. Some race or sth00:42
Dhraakellian3x3 grid is a little annoying00:42
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Dhraakellian...but it's the only way I found to get full functionality00:42
thomasjfoxDhraakellian: Is there a problem with the key bindings?00:44
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DhraakellianI forget exactly what's missing, since i haven't used it in a while00:44
Dhraakellianbut there is some stuff00:45
thomasjfoxah. now I get it00:45
DhraakellianI'll have to get back to you on that00:45
thomasjfox3x3 grid mode is not active with the cabbie theme00:45
Dhraakellian?00:45
thomasjfoxI guess you tried a build when there was no real theme for 800x480 included00:45
thomasjfox3x3 grid mode should be gone...00:46
DhraakellianI like absolute point for convenience, but if not all buttons are mapped to the hw keyboard...00:46
Dhraakellianactually... what's the latest build?00:46
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DhraakellianI should double check to make sure I'm actually using the latest00:46
thomasjfoxthe one in extras-devel, 2011-01-26 or something00:46
crashanddie_BCMM: "its"00:46
Dhraakellianyeah, that sounds about right00:47
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* Dhraakellian ponders uninstalling Rockbox just to test whether a certain bug is only coincidental00:47
BCMMcrashanddie_: I was abbreviating "it is", not using a possessive00:48
crashanddie_"or just the GUI of rockbox on it's own?"00:48
BCMMcrashanddie_: also, that was like quarter of an hour ago?00:48
crashanddie_you weren't ;)00:48
BCMMoh00:48
DhraakellianI don't see how it could be related, but my n900 started (seemingly) randomly shutting off around the time I first installed Rockbox00:48
BCMMyou mean even further back00:48
BCMMwell, in that case, it was a typo. 20 minutes ago.00:48
Dhraakellianno idea what's causing it00:48
crashanddie_16 :)00:48
Dhraakellianbut I'll take the n900 out of my pocket to check the time and find that it's not turned on00:49
Dhraakellian(not apparently, at least)00:49
Dhraakellianand requires a battery removal/reinsertion to turn back on00:49
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Dhraakellianagain, no idea what's causing this, but I think it started about the time I first installed RaaA00:50
Dhraakellianand ohgoodgrieflookatthetime00:50
DhraakellianI need to be heading out now00:50
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Dhraakellianoh... "Version: unknown-110126"00:51
* Dhraakellian really disappears now00:51
* javispedro ponders switching his n900 gentoo to hardfp...00:51
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Dhraakelliann900 gentoo?00:52
Dhraakellian,':-|00:52
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DocScrutinizerthis friggin lockup that needs bat-out reset - that's actually a PITA and a mystery, and needs someone to investigate the root cause and details how this 'works'01:46
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DocScrutinizerI've seen this once or twice, but I have no clue how to reproduce it. Also no idea whatsoever about the hw state that causes this symptom01:48
ArGGu^^has anyone used the DrLaunch?01:48
ArGGu^^is there some configurationr that must be done before I can add it to desktop?01:49
DocScrutinizerI could use a Dr's lunch01:49
nox-DocScrutinizer, ive had that once when testing some mapping app (mappero?  not sure), after i turned gps back on again and walked out the door...01:49
ArGGu^^Because when I try add it, it doesn't add to desktop :S01:49
nox-next i looked at the device it hung :(01:49
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DocScrutinizerhmmm, lemme guess (wild free associating) TWL4030 regulators, I2C bus, errm I'm not sure this leads anywhere01:51
* DocScrutinizer pops up schematics01:52
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ArGGu^^hmm got it working It the deb has missing depency :S neede python-dbus01:55
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DocScrutinizernox-: YUCK, it's actually a problem inside GAIA TWL4030: poweron (button) directly operates on TWL4030 and schould just "always work" to reset. I.E. there should never be any need to remove battery to recover01:58
nox-oh01:59
* DocScrutinizer fires up TWL4030 data"sheet"01:59
* DocScrutinizer shudders01:59
nox-hm or maybe i didnt press power `long enough'?02:00
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* DocScrutinizer glares angrily aside on the few chips that are always powered and might actually shit on the I2C bus the live on02:01
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DocScrutinizerI2C_2: tainted02:02
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nox-in my case iirc it hung with the screen still on...02:03
nox-or shall i say backlight02:03
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lucentinteresting, wl1251 injection source "held hostage" by the developer? :)02:05
DocScrutinizerok, this is a "normal" case, though even then you should be able to switch off with long powerbutton press (I guess, though still loading twl4030 docs)02:05
DocScrutinizerlucent: nonsense02:05
DocScrutinizernox-:02:05
nox-and this was also when i only had the device for a few days so i didnt know about things like long power button presses...02:05
nox-i guess02:05
lucentDocScrutinizer: oh, guess I'm late to the party02:06
DocScrutinizertwl4030 and CPU communicate via 2 dedicated I2C, for Control and SmartReflex02:06
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javispedroretarded mke2fs deciding a 3GiB partition's inode table size should be small enough not to be able to fit even gentoo's stage3.02:06
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Dado7hi people ! good nights02:06
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DocScrutinizerso there's no chance a locked up peripheral chip would mess this communication and thus block correct power-down/up02:07
nox-hm and in your case long powerbutton press didnt help?02:07
nox-actually isnt there also some watchdog?02:08
DocScrutinizernox, yes there is02:08
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DocScrutinizereven two, one of them in twl4030 afaik02:08
DocScrutinizerand no, power button didn't help, not even 30s02:08
nox-ok02:08
nox-:/02:09
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DocScrutinizerlet's enumerate the chips that have to way to hard reset them, other than removing battery: bq24150 (charger), bq27200 (batgauge), lp5523 (lysti LED)...02:12
DocScrutinizerof course twl403002:12
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DocScrutinizerflashdriver, N4290 2V5 regulator, N4242 2V8 reg, USB PHY 1707, N1350 LCD backlight driver, Speaker Amp, N6453 2V8 reg BT, WLAN module, BT module, GPS module, GAZOO02:24
DocScrutinizerI should've listed what's NOT directly hooked up to VBAT02:25
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: oh, I'd wish you'd be able to power it down by holding power button.02:28
SpeedEvil1You can02:30
SpeedEvil1press and hold 10s02:30
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: what, so the bluetooth modual isn't disconnected from power when you disable bluetooth?02:30
BCMM^module02:30
SpeedEvilBCMM: 99.9% of stuff has soft-power off modes.02:30
BCMMk02:30
DocScrutinizernope, obviously not02:30
SpeedEvilBCMM: Where they use a tiny, often negligable amount of power when turned 'off'02:31
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: yeap, but what if that fails?02:31
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DocScrutinizer(10s)02:31
SpeedEvilHit power button with sledgehammer.02:31
DocScrutinizerhehe02:31
nox-haha02:31
DocScrutinizerdid that on t900 :-P02:31
nox-t900?02:32
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SpeedEvilIt's the n900 with a mimetic alloy case.02:32
DocScrutinizerthe t-est 90002:32
DocScrutinizerexactly02:32
SpeedEvilIt comes with a free connection to skynet.02:32
DocScrutinizerwhile the other one is IroN90002:32
nox-haha02:32
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javispedroobviously I was talking about poweroff after kernel panic or similar error condition =902:35
javispedrothe fact that I forgot to mention that quite important detail probably says how I usually torture the n900...02:36
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javispedroAND most importantly, one would like to be able to use the N900 afterwards. You know, like the space shuttle. So that discards the sledgehammer.02:38
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ShapeshifterGh0sty: yes?02:39
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pupnikjavispedro: i blew out both speakers on mine :)02:44
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javispedrohey, I just blew out one =)02:44
javispedrotalking about torture, my n900 suddenly went crazy02:44
pupnikwere you bypassing pulse?02:44
javispedro[45587.648223] attempt to access beyond end of device02:44
javispedro[45587.648284] mmcblk0p3: rw=0, want=4457448, limit=419430402:44
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javispedrothat's the _swap_ partition02:44
DocScrutinizer POR: Caused by a low battery and a low backup battery. The device also resets itself, including the backup domain registers (except the reset management that generates the reset), when the main battery is removed within 8 seconds after PWRON is pressed for more than 8 seconds and then released. This is not only a manual reset, but also a switch-off of the device. Pressing PWRON for 8 seconds without removing the battery also switches off02:44
DocScrutinizerthe device (even if the backup registers are not reset).02:44
javispedroreboot time...02:44
* javispedro makes a point to try that later on02:45
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javispedrothis is absolutely funny.02:46
javispedrosuddenly the kernel went crazy and forgot about the swap partition size.02:46
javispedroso everything that gets swapped out is corrupted02:46
javispedrouh oh, including my FS02:47
DocScrutinizerWhen PWRON is pressed for 8 seconds and the battery is not removed, all the registers in the VBAT domain except SC_CONFIG, SC_DETECT1, SC_DETECT2, WATCHDOG_CFG, and IT_CHECK_CFG are reset, and the registers in the backup domain are reset only when the main battery is removed after pressing the PWRON key for 8 seconds.02:47
nox-javispedro, :(02:48
nox-btw DocScrutinizer how much of that stuff you are reading there is public?02:49
DocScrutinizerumm all?02:49
nox-oh :)02:50
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nox-is the a link list or something?02:50
DocScrutinizerTWL4030__TPS65950 OMAP™ Power Management and System Companion Device ES 1.0 TRM (Rev. D)__swcu050d.pdf02:51
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EstaTiC_FeARi am in love with this os and n900 nokia02:54
EstaTiC_FeARi must admit it02:54
EstaTiC_FeARi am going to marry my phone02:54
EstaTiC_FeARlol02:54
luke-jr_EstaTiC_FeAR: Nokia killed Maemo off a long time ago already.02:55
EstaTiC_FeARso what?02:55
EstaTiC_FeARstill i can love it and that phone02:55
EstaTiC_FeAR:)02:55
luke-jr_you can't usually marry a corpse02:55
EstaTiC_FeARtells who? :D02:55
EstaTiC_FeARhehe02:55
luke-jr_(nor tech, but that's beside the point)02:55
EstaTiC_FeARdon't get everything so serious02:56
EstaTiC_FeARi simply like phone and it's features02:56
Per_n900Its great, I agree. There is nothing else like it, just use it and be happy.02:57
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EstaTiC_FeARfew hours ago i run a movie with mplayer and i played it same as on my computer02:58
EstaTiC_FeARand that is something i first time saw on mobile phone02:58
EstaTiC_FeARlol02:58
DocScrutinizerto whom it may concern: VBATlow_th = 2.7V (hard shutdown). VBAT_good seems to be 2.85V (minimum VBAT to start device)02:58
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DocScrutinizerVbupbat_min=1.8V03:00
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RobbieABIs the N900 music player supposed to be UTF enabled?03:05
lucentI don't think so03:05
RobbieABOk.03:05
lucentare you referring to filnames or metadata?03:05
RobbieABFilenames.03:05
lucent(filenames)03:05
RobbieABI assume03:05
lucentmost music will be from vfat driver, right?03:05
RobbieABYeah.03:05
RobbieABBut THAT is ok with the filenames, it's just scrambling the accented characters.03:06
RobbieABAt least, it was from my laptop. :S03:06
lucentyour laptop would be mounting the filesystem with *its* vfat driver and options03:07
blackthorneI've been trying to make apps with qt for my n900 but they look horrible, they look like the desktop version03:07
lucentnot the options used on the N900, you see, it is unmounted when you connect in storage mode03:07
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lucenthttp://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon03:07
blackthorneHow can I build an app that looks native just like the default appsthat come with maemo 5?03:08
DocScrutinizer(2.85V startup) umm, actually: >> VBUS and USB levels are reset to 0 when VBAT is low. When recovering from a VBAT domain reset (for example, when changing from NO_BAT to VBAT > 3.2 V), if the starting condition levels are valid, the device starts (example: it starts if VBUS is already plugged in).03:08
lucentblackthorne: respect the Hildon UI (see above)03:08
javispedrotracker is stupid.03:08
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blackthorneHildon... I've heard that name before... Thanks03:09
RobbieABlucent: The file manager on the N900 displays the characters correctly...03:09
lucentok03:10
DocScrutinizerhehe, thermal shutdown level = 150°C03:10
RobbieABOh well. I guess I will just ignore it as best I can. Seems like an odd absence from the device though. :(03:11
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blackthorneIs there any simulator/emulator that could help me debugging apps for the n900?03:11
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nox-there's a madde qemu...03:12
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blackthornenox-: I found a post refering to it, seems not to completely boot03:13
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nox-hm i dont remember what i did exactly to get it running... :/03:16
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blackthornenox-: So you are telling me it works, right?03:17
nox-wfm03:17
nox-i only found pr1.2 images tho iircv03:17
nox-iirc03:17
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nox-tho that was a while ago, maybe there are pr1.3 ones now03:18
javispedroblackthorne: best is real device.03:18
javispedroblackthorne: otherwise, what you're using to develop?03:18
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blackthornepyside03:21
blackthorneemacs03:21
nox-http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/2011/02/09/white-trash-repairs-must-be-browsing-too-much-hot-stuff/03:24
javispedroblackthorne: so, what functionality you want to emulate? just run the stuff on your host computer.03:24
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blackthornethe whole OS, I want to test my apps in a more agile way03:25
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nox-http://www.gpsworld.com/gnss-system/news/data-shows-disastrous-gps-jamming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-11029?utm_source=GPS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Navigate_01_31_2011&utm_content=data-shows-disastrous-gps-jamming-fcc-approved-broadcaster-1102903:26
javispedroblackthorne: scratchbox (aka the maemo sdk) ships with a port of the most importance pieces of the OS to x86 that you can run (on a chroot + a Xephyr window)03:30
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Arkenoireuters says n9 is to be dropped?03:36
Arkenoismells much like bullshit, though03:37
wmaroneold news03:37
javispedroaha.03:37
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javispedroyet another patch for tracker, to make it _fscking properly ignore /mnt if I had tell it to do it SO, dammit!_03:38
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javispedro( http://maemo.pastebin.com/EWMDjpq7 )03:39
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DocScrutinizercan we fsckng nuke tracker PLEASE? and replace it with a simple directory scan realtime03:44
javispedro"simple" and "realtime directory scan" is seemingly an imposible task, based on previous example (tracker, nokia's metacrawler)03:46
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: until that glorious day tracker dies, where can I get the patched binary?03:47
pupnikYou can disable tracker03:49
pupnikone of the first things to do03:49
DocScrutinizeror better yet: nuke mediaplayer, gallery, trackerd, thumbnailer, camera-ui, and use some *sane* apps that don't base on such a brainfart concept of a shadow meta "file " hierarchy03:49
javispedroDocScrutinizer: http://depot.javispedro.com/nit/tracker/03:50
DocScrutinizerpupnik: which doesn't help either, as then no camera and no maediaplayer works anymore03:50
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: main tracker_0.6.95-*_armel.deb package should be enough03:51
DocScrutinizer:-D03:51
javispedrothere are some more patches attached but those are about cover art03:51
* javispedro should probably try to get those into the community ssu or something03:52
* SpeedEvil sighs at insufficiently sanitised data.03:53
javispedroah, the good old days, when I mentioned to someone that we should probably get those in the next PR and his optimist answer was "We'll also get the more recent version of tracker, as it fixes X and Y too".03:53
javispedronever happened.03:53
* javispedro sighs, depressed.03:53
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SpeedEvilReCaptcha - presents me with a formulae - with random greek and other letters to enter03:53
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DocScrutinizerLOL03:54
javispedrohahahahaha03:55
javispedroI kinda love when one word is a clearly legible one and the other one is a... for example, a tree.03:55
* DocScrutinizer sighs at brainfuck of skimming 300+pp in /home/jr/Documents/N900/TWL4030__TPS65950 OMAP™ Power Management and System Companion Device ES 1.0 TRM (Rev. D)__swcu050d.pdf03:55
DocScrutinizerat least I learnt a bit about e.g SmartReflex03:56
javispedronow that I fixed damn tracker, let's go back to what I was doing...03:57
SpeedEvil:)03:57
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: which was? teach friggin galery to segregate pr0n from family snapshots? :-D03:57
javispedrosomething like that but with geek pr0n03:58
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javispedrooh, nice, clean, empty media player without all the pesky .wav files it got from the gentoo chroot.03:58
DocScrutinizerI'd be happy enough to find it drop all the irreco button png03:59
DocScrutinizerand cover art04:00
javispedroah, cover art is unfortunate.04:00
DocScrutinizergallery that is04:00
javispedroif it doesn't index it it won't use it for album art.04:00
DocScrutinizerwhile mediaplayer doesn't use separate cover art, only embedded ones it seems04:00
pupnikit is quite a failure for indexers to acquire all the graphics and media from games04:00
javispedroDocScrutinizer: with my patch it does, oh yes.04:01
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javispedro(the above mentioned patch(es) to tracker, I mean)04:01
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DocScrutinizerfsckng trackerd should restrict itself to exactly 2 directories: MyDocs/mp3/ and MyDocs/DCIM04:02
javispedroedit .config/tracker/tracker.cfg and kill:04:03
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javispedroset WatchDirectory=$HOME/MyDocs/mp3;$HOME/MyDocs/DCIM;04:03
javispedroIndexMountedDirectories=false04:04
javispedroIndexRemovableMedia=false04:04
javispedroand if it tries to index anything else, try my patches.04:04
* javispedro is starting to tame this tracker beast =)04:04
javispedrothat won't prevent gallery showing albumart though.04:05
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compengihello all, i have 2 questions. first, i'm trying to charge the battery on linux, does it make a difference? i've read somewhere that i may need a nokia application to fully charge the battery? and 2nd i mounted the drive to my desktop, now i see 4 folders: cities, DCIM, Mac OS and temp. i want to copy some music to phone, so that the media player software would recognize them, to which folder should i copy the music to?04:07
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: Throttle = 1504:09
javispedrofeel free to experiment04:09
javispedroI personally prefer it to end quickly04:09
javispedroany i/o on the n900 causes slowdowns..04:10
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: aiui it's a clean old posix niceness04:10
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DocScrutinizerthrottle is misleading04:10
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javispedrocompengi: 1) no, but the only way to charge it fast is using wall charger 2) any folder you want, though you might want to "show hidden folders" to see the "Documents", "Music", etc. ones04:11
DocScrutinizermaybe I'm mistaken04:11
DocScrutinizer1) this doesn't really pull it off - the diff is like 20%04:12
DocScrutinizeractually in Mac OS/ directory there's a list of hidden and virtual names04:15
compengijavispedro, aha, many thanks! btw isn't slow charging process better than a quick one?04:15
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: oh, I never got the "Mac OS" stuff to work under GNU.04:16
DocScrutinizererr not really (Mac OS), but at least it's a list of some of the .hidden dirs04:16
DocScrutinizerorly :-P04:17
javispedroyarly :D tought you mentioned using them.04:17
DocScrutinizermight be related to MacOS != GNU04:17
DocScrutinizer:-)04:17
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DocScrutinizerMac OS/._Documents: AppleDouble encoded Macintosh file - MEH04:19
DocScrutinizerWTF that might be04:19
DocScrutinizerit's a useles 522k size04:19
nox-doesnt macos have those `resource forks' in files?04:20
DocScrutinizerwasn't that NTFS?04:20
javispedrocompengi: depends on how much you want to wait, I guess.04:20
DocScrutinizerwell, macOS as well I guess04:20
villagerDocScrutinizer: maybe that contains a macos icon?04:20
DocScrutinizerthough a different flavour04:20
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DocScrutinizercompengi: the diff is really small, and the impact on battery lifespan negligible04:22
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DocScrutinizercompengi: locking the screen rather than keep it bright during charging has same effect as fastcharger04:23
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DocScrutinizervillager: prolly04:23
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DocScrutinizerfriggin huge icon o.O04:23
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villageror maybe icons for everything that's in it by default...04:25
compengiokay04:27
compengi:)04:27
compengiDocScrutinizer, maybe turning off the device will make the difference even better04:27
DocScrutinizercompengi: as mentioned above the diff is like 20% longer04:28
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DocScrutinizercompengi: given the fact you can't really turn it off during charging, the effect is identical between "off" (aka ACT_DEAD) and a locked screen04:29
compengii see04:29
compengigood to know04:30
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javispedrolo04:33
javispedrol04:33
DocScrutinizeranyway it will charge like honey drips off the spoon, 90% reached very fast (like one hour) but for 96% you need another 3 hours, and it's unclear if there's such a thing like true 100% for LiIon cells04:34
javispedroin recent versions of gcc they're practically merging with Make itself04:34
javispedro(because gcc now controls the entire build process due to "link-time optimizations")04:34
DocScrutinizerumm04:35
DocScrutinizerso make is a hardlink to gcc then?04:35
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javispedrono, they talk over a socket04:36
DocScrutinizerOMFG04:36
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javispedrosame way submakes talk to its parent make (for stuff like job control etc)04:37
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javispedroalso, new C 201x standard =904:37
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DocScrutinizercompengi:04:38
DocScrutinizer~batteryfaq04:38
infobotbatteryfaq is, like, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers04:38
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Paulyhello05:39
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Gorrothdid nokia really kill off the N9?  this makes me want to hulk smash!06:36
Gorrothjavispedro: you mean C++?06:37
javispedrono, I mean C 201x, google it06:37
Gorrothi did06:37
GorrothC++ came up first06:37
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RobbieThe1stGorroth: We don't know. It's all rumor at this point06:39
RobbieThe1stSomething will probably carry the "N9" label... but what the hardware behind that is...06:40
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Gorrothyeah06:44
Gorrothi just want it to be a phone, not a tablet06:44
Gorrothi mean, tablets are welcome06:44
Gorrothbut i want a phone first06:44
RobbieThe1stIt'll probably be like the n900 - mostly tablet, with phone functionality06:44
RobbieThe1stsomething that's a phone formost is probably reserved for low-end devices.06:45
Gorrothmmm, well, they probably should rethink that06:45
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RobbieThe1stHell, I'd argue the same about the iphone and androud06:45
RobbieThe1st*android06:45
RobbieThe1stPhone functionality's just low end. What we're dealing with is a phone "module" plugged into a computer - literally, in almost all cases06:46
Gorrothyeah, that is readily apparent in maemo06:47
Gorrothneeds to be seemless06:47
Gorrothseamless06:47
RobbieThe1steh, I disagree. For most people using one of these, the amount of time used as a phone is comparitively small06:47
Gorrothnot a good argument06:48
Gorrothbut i digress06:48
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psycho_oreosnokia has been dogging with symbian06:48
RobbieThe1stPersonally, I just took an old Nokia dumbphone and used that as my phone - It's got excellent battery life because it's never used06:49
psycho_oreosyou think nokia would all of the sudden scrap all symbian for maemo/meego?06:49
RobbieThe1stN900's for everything else; that way I never run out of battery when I -need- phone functionality. And of course, I can always stick my sim in the n900 if I want it at some point06:49
RobbieThe1st(like if I get a data plan cheaply)06:49
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SpeedEvilpsycho_oreos: I don't think they have enough fecs up to speed to get meego to mass market.06:51
psycho_oreosSpeedEvil, fecs?06:51
psycho_oreos~google fecs06:52
SpeedEvilI have no idea what I tried to type there06:52
SpeedEvilenough coders06:52
psycho_oreoslol stupid bot.. meh06:53
RobbieThe1stI think meego will probably get to market - Intel's got deep pockets, regardless of Nokia06:53
SpeedEvilSure.06:53
psycho_oreosyeah well their main focus has been symbian, even after sacking a fair portion of symbian devs06:53
SpeedEvilBut will meego get to market quickly?06:53
RobbieThe1stI also think Symbian's not gonna disappear - They are still selling many million devices.06:54
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psycho_oreosno it won't disappear, my point is that nokia treated maemo like a niche market sort of thing hence the lack of functionality for this and that.. and when it came to n900, it was delivered poorly06:55
psycho_oreosintel may have deep pockets but they won't like to do with the ARM platform for too long06:57
doc|homemaybe the marketing/sales but the phone itself is one I wouldn't swap for an iphone06:57
psycho_oreoss/do/deal/06:57
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: intel may have deep pockets but they won't like to deal with the ARM platform for too long06:57
Sc0rpiuswell a Nokia phone with an Intel Atom is not a bad idea in my head06:57
doc|homeis the power usage comparable?06:57
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Sc0rpiuswell there has been rumors of phones with Intel Atom hitting the market this year06:58
psycho_oreosit won't be powered by atom, it'll be some really small intel x86 chipset, that was codenamed moorestown and has been available in aava mobile06:58
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: thanks for the idea you gave me06:58
Sc0rpiusPankaj Kedia, the Director of Intel’s Global Ecosystem Programs has shown us the first Atom-powered phones, one of which is from LG (model GW990).06:58
Sc0rpius(that was several months ago)06:59
RobbieThe1stDocScrutinizer: And which was that?06:59
Sc0rpiusbut it was kinda usless06:59
Sc0rpiusthen they said the next generation will consume 10 times less power06:59
psycho_oreosand cheaper by the dozen? :)06:59
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DocScrutinizeryou need a phone that works, even when you leeched battery empty on N900 with 'other usage'07:00
RobbieThe1stOh yea. That -would- be a good idea07:00
RobbieThe1stLike a backup battery or disabled functionality at 10-20% charge?07:00
DocScrutinizerso the case of concern is: N900 stopped data nad irc and whatnot, and you need a working phone07:01
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DocScrutinizeryes07:01
DocScrutinizerexactly07:01
DocScrutinizer10% should be enough07:01
doc|homefor me data is more important than being able to get a phone call. I rarely use the phone as an actual phone :)07:02
doc|homedata and sms that is07:02
DocScrutinizerhehe, I'll come up with a nice lil app tomorrow07:02
doc|homeheh07:03
doc|homeI'd install that just for the coolness of it :) one more reason not to get an iphone07:03
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ebzzryHi! I'm trying to install `findutils' but aptitude suggests that `busybox' be removed? Is that OK? The score is 29872707:26
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SpeedEvilNo, it's not OK07:29
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SpeedEvilhttp://maemo.org/packages/view/findutils-gnu/ I think is the right package07:30
SpeedEvilit does not replace busybox find, but adds gfind07:30
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DocScrutinizer51Venemo: updated puzzlemaster. Sorry but it's reaaly much less nice and snappy and smooth than before07:35
DocScrutinizer51and after solving the puzzle it seems it segfaulted on clicking randomly on the tiles07:36
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ebzzrySpeedEvil: It's not OK since busyboy is a integral part of the system?07:38
ebzzryWhat package has `locate'?07:38
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ShadowJKMy new netbook (dual core atom N550) lasts me a day and has 55% battery left07:41
ShadowJKof course I don't open the lid as often as I pick up my N900.. and my N900 doesn't go into full suspend when I put it in my pocket..07:41
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ShadowJKIt takes like 3 seconds to hybrid suspend, which is fast for a x86, but still very slow07:43
ShadowJKon OLPC they could throw out the BIOS and use some opensource replacement, so they could actually enter suspend while still displaying a page of text on screen, and come out of suspend fast enough when user moved mouse that it was seamless more or less :D07:44
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pupnikhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHy3b7tsSyk   Japan - Ghosts07:54
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SpeedEvilebzzry: yes - it will break.08:03
pupnikRIP Mick Karn08:04
SpeedEvilebzzry: busybox is absolutely required for the system to boot. Even if you replace it with 'compatible' gnu tools, it won't work, due to busyboxisms in the scripts.08:04
DocScrutinizer51nice version08:04
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pupnikindeed08:06
pupnikjust woke up from a dream, hearing/singing that song with different lyrics08:06
ebzzrySpeedEvil: I've semi-bricked my system many times as a result of experimentation (replacing /bin/sh, among others). I find it odd that aptitude gives such a high score08:07
ebzzrySpeedEvil: Since we're on that topic, is there an existing locate+updatedb package for Maemo 5?08:07
ebzzrySpeedEvil: Or is the solution is "roll your own"?08:08
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SpeedEvilGo to http://maemo.org/packages/ - right click on the search box, and add it to a shortcut. Then simply type 'p locate' into the location bar.08:09
SpeedEvilhttp://maemo.org/packages/view/locate/08:09
Dhraakellianhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmoDLyiQYKw08:10
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ebzzryThanks08:12
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ebzzrySpeedEvil: Is it OK to point /usr/bin/find to /usr/bin/gfind?09:38
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RobbieThe1stebzzry: I'd move /usr/bin/gfind into the rootfs first though10:03
RobbieThe1stIt's - IIRC - symlinked from the optfs10:03
RobbieThe1stalso, install backupmenu first; you'll likely need to reflash if you make a mistake otherwise10:04
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Termanagood morning10:12
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[DrkGUNMAN-N900]a belated good morning to you too10:28
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ZogGlol just saw intel jobs for students. they have  Atom SoC Development Group for tablet and netbook development =)10:31
RST38hYes. So, what is wrong with it?10:32
ZogGmost of it for hardware development =)10:33
ZogGRST38h i think it's meego related10:33
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RST38hExpected, given Intel's industrial orientation10:33
ZogGand RST38h shut up, i don't want to talk to russians )))10:34
RST38hZogG: No. You have most likely found a UMG job10:34
ZogGUMG stands for?10:34
ebzzryRobbieAB1: Hmm, but gfind is located in /usr/bin/gnu/find10:34
RST38hZogG: If you want Meego, look for SSG jobs10:34
RST38hZogG: Ultra Mobility Group10:35
ZogGRST38h do you read habr10:35
RST38hZogG: Nope10:35
ZogGRST38h APG is better10:35
RST38hZogG: Meego is mostly done by OTC, so look for a job there10:35
ZogGRST38h you probably one of those who read 2ch =)10:36
RST38hNo.10:36
ebzzryOops10:36
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ebzzryRobbieThe1st: Hmm, but gfind is located in /usr/bin/gnu/find10:36
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RobbieThe1stmake sure that's not a symlink10:36
ZogGRST38h are you on linux?10:36
RST38hZogG: Win7.10:37
ZogGbuu =)10:37
ebzzryRobbieThe1st: It isn't. By the way, is the boot process dependent on an existence of 'find'?10:37
keriomaybe!10:37
keriomaemo is weird like that10:37
RobbieThe1stProbaby10:37
kerioit's probably dependent on the phase of the moon10:37
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ebzzryCan anyone confirm it?10:39
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RST38hOk, looks like there will be more fear and loathing here today, given the new wave of news abut Nokia switching to WP710:39
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ZogGRST38h i don't get who started that rumor10:39
Corsacnot me!10:39
ZogGoh, got ya10:40
RST38hZogG: There are multiple sources, so it is no longer a rumor10:40
ZogGlike RST38h would say "on robber the hat is on fire"10:40
ZogGRST38h i don't think it's even logical10:40
ZogGall the sources are the same10:40
RST38hZogG: does not have to be logical10:40
ZogGone started rumors and here we go10:41
* RST38h is kinda tired to repeat that btw10:41
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RST38hhttp://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-02-09/nokia-is-said-to-be-near-partnership-with-microsoft.html10:41
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Pavlovwindows on my n900!10:42
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RST38hhttp://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-10/nokia-said-to-be-near-partnership-to-use-microsoft-software-on-handsets.html10:42
ZogGRST38h i say meego+wp7+android+rim's os = nokia new Os10:42
ZogGOS10:42
ZogGPavlov where are your dogs man?10:43
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RST38hhttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/technology/04nokia.html10:43
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ZogGRST38h they just copy paste from each other10:43
ZogGit's not true10:43
johnxZogG, Nokia will just ship phones with no OS direct to end-users10:43
ZogGNOOO10:43
ZogGi don't want to hear anything from it anymore, ba babababa (can't hear you) lalalalalala10:43
RST38hjohnx: Hasn't OpenMoko done that? =)10:44
ZogGjohnx, no, they would ship pictures of phones10:44
johnxZogG, nah. it's just playing to their core competency: hardware10:44
johnxso actually, maybe they'll just ship plastic cases10:44
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tybolltso I Guess everyone luled over the Ellop letter on engadget already? :)10:45
ZogGjohnx or all parts and you need to connect them and a box to put in there10:45
ZogGtybollt he wrote letter?10:45
johnxtybollt, yeah. there was a spirted discussion10:45
Pavloveveryone brushed up on your Qt bindings for silverlight?10:46
ZogGabout burning gasoline/10:46
ZogG?10:46
ZogGi heard new thing instead Qt is mono10:47
ZogGmono ftw10:47
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ZogGlet's spread rumors )10:47
johnxZogG, it was something about standing about pouring gasoline on a burning scaffolding. I think it was meant to be a warning to people doing home renovation10:47
RST38hjohnx: Personally reminded me of a medieval witch execution method10:48
RST38hjohnx: Where they tied the witch to some logs, fired her up, and sent her sailing10:48
johnxRST38h, naaah. I watched a documentary once. I think they throw them in the water and see if they float10:48
RST38hjohnx: right, but it is also necessary to ignite the witch for better show10:49
ZogGjohnx, yeah i saw also people laughing about last time they said android is like peeing to warm yourself and about Nokia burring one Os after another =)10:49
RST38hjohnx: Anyways, there is still a possibility this whole thing will blow off10:49
ZogGi don't belive in any WP7 on nokia10:50
marmoutejohnx: they compare them to duck weight. no need to throw them in water !10:50
johnxheh. My bet: They announce all Nokia E-series phones will continue to have Exchange support or something10:50
RST38hjohnx: Nokia will release a few WP7 phones for the US market, the phones will [expectedly] tank, the corpses go back to square 1\10:50
johnxmarmoute, ah. you saw the same documentary!10:50
johnxRST38h, also sounds familiar. It worked sooo well for Palm10:51
RST38hmarmoute: Actually, the threshold is not a duck weight, it is ~40kg10:51
RST38hmarmoute: Heavier girls can't fly through a chimney10:51
RST38hjohnx: SGI too, I think10:51
johnxmarmoute, what was the presenter's name? Mr. Python?10:52
RST38hjohnx: Is anyone buying those WP7 phones, anyway?10:52
RST38hjohnx: Or is it a new Zune?10:52
johnxRST38h, soooo, I actually live like 10 minutes from MS HQ. I hang out with a lot of the MS guys on a regularish basis. Of the 8 or so I know, I think two (a husband and wife) have a WP7 phone10:53
johnxbut android adoption was not super quick either10:53
RST38hjohnx: So, what DO they have? RAZRs?10:53
johnxgiven time I think it will eek out a decent little niche next to Android for one reason or another10:53
ZogGjohnx i bet they got WP7 phones cause they don't care and it was for free10:53
johnxRST38h, iphones. android. one has an n90010:53
RST38hjohnx: OMG10:54
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ZogGjohnx KILL HIM10:54
johnxZogG, my point being that they could *all* have them for free. and most *don't*10:54
RST38hjohnx: Well, I have checked a few WP7 reviews and the thing looks awful10:54
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ZogGi want to take iphone now for contrqct for free10:54
ZogGas it has a lot of demand in Israel10:54
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ZogGand to sell it10:55
ZogGjust not sure to do it or wait10:55
RST38hjohnx: Not clear why anyone would buy something like that, given a choice of Android and iPhone phones10:55
ZogGmaybe i can take n8 for free as well10:55
ZogGbut i wouldn't chnage n900 anyway so it's btter phone i can sell easily10:55
ZogGRST38h, i don't get why people buy iphone at all10:56
johnxRST38h, the two people I know who have them didn't pay for them, AFAIK. I don't remember what dept they work in, but they might also have work involving them10:56
ZogGi think there are two things iphone is awesome10:56
ZogG1st is tap tap revenge game10:56
ZogG2nd is in selling10:56
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ZogGit's just iPhone feature to be awesome in sellings with no reason =)10:56
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ZogGit's like mystery10:56
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Venemo_N900hey all11:11
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xkr47hello11:14
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KhertanMorning11:38
Khertan!11:38
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[DrkGUNMAN-N900]morning again12:00
Khertanmorning agagin [DrkGUNMAN-N900]12:00
Khertan:)12:00
chem|stmorning12:03
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chem|stis the CSSU wifi module a bit buggy?12:04
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[DrkGUNMAN-N900]havent had any problems with wifi since installing cssu. whats up?12:09
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chem|stwhere was the wpa_cli package hidden?12:20
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mazingohi there12:40
alteregoheh, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-1239112912:41
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Venemo_N900alterego: ridiculous12:42
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Venemo_N900MohammadAG: you should ask the islamic church to bless your quaran app12:46
Khertanchem|st: didn't have any12:46
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alteregoHahah12:48
Venemo_N900alterego: :D12:49
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alteregobbl :)12:50
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larinHi, guys. I bought n900. I have a ssh access. And now I have a question: How I can know the version of installed Maemo OS?12:54
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johnxlarin, settings -> about product12:56
johnxthe current release is 20.2010.36-2 aka PR1.312:56
larinjohnx, Maemo 5, Version: 20.2010.36-212:57
larinjohnx, thx)12:57
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chem|stKhertan: what handles wpa then?13:03
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Khertanchem|st: what's the problem with it ? i use wpa on my wifi routers with my n900 without problem13:04
Khertan(i ven't change the settings since the update)13:04
chem|stKhertan: I am looking for some kind of debug info and or cli interface13:05
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kerioi ven't change the settings either13:06
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chem|stthe wifi on n900 works fine, it was a radius prox error13:06
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Pillumhey there13:07
Pillumwhich is the fastest psx emulator for n90013:07
ZogGKhertan do you read twitter replies?13:07
chem|stPillum: are there many?13:07
KhertanZogG: of course why ?13:07
KhertanZogG: but i'm at the office right now :)13:07
ZogGKhertan cause :1st i twutted you, 2nd if you use phone and i'm not in your followers list you can't see me13:08
Pillumchem|st: dunno, how many are there? :D13:08
ZogGyou gonna go for qml as i assume13:08
chem|stPillum: if there is only one the question is obsolete13:08
ZogGso you can make nice menu like in new gpodder13:08
Khertan(12:08:27) ZogG: Khertan cause :1st i twutted you, 2nd if you use phone and i'm not in your followers list you can't see me <<< but khweeteur unified view show reply :)13:08
ZogGKhertan what?13:09
KhertanZogG: didn't see the menu of qml gpodder13:09
ZogGok before that btw if you reminded me13:09
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ZogGon twit menu you have 5 buttons and place for one more =)13:10
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ZogGmaybe you should add "view conversation" or "mention" there, mention is if i want to mention person but do not want to reply to this certain twit13:10
KhertanZogG: the one more isn't ready ... (this place is reserve for direct message)13:11
KhertanZogG: but i think i ll change the ui with the qml switch13:11
ZogGok13:11
ZogGKhertan, http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4154/5416637626_be571d26a0.jpg13:11
ZogGcheck this one13:11
Khertanwill be a bit the same ... but better13:11
Khertanoh ... it s fullscreen13:12
ZogGthat is new gpodder UI, NSFW as it's too sexy =)13:12
Khertanreally not bad13:12
ZogGKhertan, wazd helped thp to do it13:12
ZogGKhertan, that's what i wanted to ask13:12
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ZogGit you do something like that you can put your own buttons between minimize and close13:13
Khertanhum ... git ... copu / paste13:13
ZogGit would be nice to have menu13:13
Khertanexactly what i think13:13
ZogGlike hom/mentions/DMs/list13:13
ZogGhome*13:13
ZogGlike in android and other crappy phones clients =)13:14
ZogGbut better13:14
ZogGas maemo ftw =)13:14
KhertanZogG: i was thinking more of unified/home/dm/mentions/search/list13:14
ZogGwhat for unified?13:14
ZogGnever got it13:14
ZogGsearch is nice13:14
KhertanZogG: did you use chrome browser ?13:14
ZogGmentions should be second as it's more important13:14
ZogGKhertan, yes i do, so?13:15
Khertantry chromedbird extension13:15
ZogGi think i used it once13:15
ZogGi use hotot13:15
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ZogGcan you just explaine what for this unified thing?13:16
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JaffaKhertan: Trouble is I don't want to have to scroll through when catching up in the morning to see if I've got a mention. Having a combined timeline for during the day, but also a Blackberry-Twitter style alert/notification for DMs & mentions13:17
ZogGi think home is for who i follow(including mentions)13:18
ZogGmentions is for mentions also from people outside the following list13:19
ZogGand it's if i want to "chat" on twiiter13:19
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ZogGKhertan, as well it's interesting if it's possible to make auto nickname completion with qml =) for HW keyboard as it wouldn't work for virtual13:20
KhertanZogG: Unified is home + dm + mentions13:20
Khertan+retweet13:20
lardmanmorning13:20
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KhertanJaffa: Khertan: Trouble is I don't want to have to scroll through when catching up in the morning to see if I've got a mention. Having a combined timeline for during the day, but also a Blackberry-Twitter style alert/notification for DMs & mentions <<<- planned13:21
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ZogGKhertan, meh, it's useless to have everything when you can choose what you want; it's like in maemo msging system all ims and twitts and sms all together13:21
ZogGi prefer extra click than this mess13:21
KhertanJaffa: with the qml ui, i ll demonoize the info retrieving13:21
lardmanJaffa: any mileage in grabbing the list of IPs from anonymous and non-anonymous wiki editors and trying to work out how many of the anonymous ones were actually members with logins who just weren't using them?13:21
ZogGKhertan anyway retwitted ( your by others ) doesn't work properly on twitter13:22
KhertanZogG: yep i know13:22
KhertanZogG: documentation say it should be in the unified api call13:23
Khertanbut it s not13:23
Khertanbut sometimes is13:23
ZogGKhertan, and it would be nice to have option to RT with comment, i mean yeah, it's cool RT @khertan http://awesomeurl.com13:23
ZogG"yeah, it's cool RT @khertan http://awesomeurl.com"13:23
Khertan:)13:23
Khertanok ... i should made a roadmap :)13:23
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Khertantoo many things to remember13:23
ZogGmost of twitts i just retwiit with new retwit but some i want to comment =(13:24
ZogGKhertan i can help you with my ideas how i see it, but you don't have to take them all you know but anytime you want i'm here or there or on twiiter =)13:24
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ZogGKhertan as well as you can use main instead of home/unified and in option i choose if it would be home or unified =)13:25
Jaffalardman: Given the state of the community, I dunno if the "easy entry" is still a requirement. But we might get an influx of new members if a) the N9 is awesome and loads of N900s go for sale; b) the N9 never gets released/doesn't meet ppl's requirements and there's suddenly a demand for N900s as the zenith ;-)13:27
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ZogGJaffa meh noone would like n90013:28
ZogGonly those who got it and stick with it13:28
ZogGas i don't see meego on n900 coz of the old HW13:29
akikhawi have to say that N900 is the kind of an phone that grows on you the more you use it13:29
akikhawa casual, non techy user is probably going to sell it and buy something else13:29
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akikhawbut for others.. it just becomes better and better all the time13:29
ZogGand it would be miracle if Nokia would succeed to promote N900 for developers when they failed once and aboded Os already13:29
ZogGakikhaw agreed13:30
ZogGi was so sorry for n900 after i saw cool androids but i played with android and n900 is much better again for me13:30
ZogGi just think the UI in android is much better13:30
ZogGit's more phone UI but the way they did it13:31
ThreeMi loke the ui in maemo better :)13:31
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ThreeMfast, shot ways to do somethink, not so many menüs13:31
ThreeMi like it :)13:31
ZogGThreeM, i mean not whole UI but small things, for e.g. portrait/landscape. the way you can change lockscreen, virtual keyboards13:32
JaffaZogG: Who said anything about N900s running MeeGo? If Nokia's MeeGo handsets aren't what people who've been holding off buying want, they might buy N900s instead13:32
JaffaZogG: Eh? you can change the lockscreen on Maemo; it's jut no-one does13:32
ZogGin maemo it was developed as one solution in android all those parts are like puzzle, you change this with that and you don't need to patch and change whole system13:32
ZogGJaffa, MohammadAG is planing13:33
ZogGJaffa, i just think the API of android as the system is more easy13:33
ZogGmaybe i'm wrong as i'm total noob in it =)13:33
ZogGAPI /framework or what eever you call it13:34
ThreeMmaemo has QT13:34
ZogGThreeM, no it DOESN't13:34
ThreeMandroid can never has a better framework than that13:34
ZogGit has no QT13:34
JaffaZogG: MohammadAG is plan[n]ing? Planning what?13:35
ZogGThreeM, 1st of all you misunderstand me, i'm not talking about apps, i'm talking about system13:35
ZogGJaffa to make bubbles like in nokia lab for n90013:35
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ThreeMmaemo has QT4.7 with PR 1.313:35
ZogGThreeM, there is no such thing as QT4.713:36
alteregoChristanObject.connect(:God, :sign => Jesus.new2, :action => :repent)13:36
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ZogGThreeM, it's Qt for god sakes13:36
ZogGQt!Qt!Qt!13:36
ZogGQT is quicktime13:36
alteregoI'm thinking of developing a religious programming language.13:36
ZogG~google QT quick time13:36
ZogGThreeM, and qt is something different at all, it's for application development or certain parts of UI but not UI itself as far as i understand13:38
ThreeMsure you can use QT to draw all the ui13:38
ZogGThreeM, for example as we talked above, gpodder is rewritten with QML and use it's own system menu, but you can't easly change that as the system wide menu13:39
ZogGthat's what i am talking about13:39
ThreeMahh ok13:39
ZogGThreeM, and it's Qt, maaaaan13:39
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ZogGThreeM, http://extension.informer.com/qt/13:40
ZogGalterego if you make difficult programming language person that uses it can became religion or atheist and swear you till rest of his life =)13:41
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ZogGlol13:43
ZogGmeego for netbooks is dead =)13:43
ZogGhttp://www.linux-magazin.de/NEWS/Tschuess-Smeegol-Entwickler-stoppt-Meego-fuer-Opensuse13:43
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ThreeMcause of tablets13:45
ThreeMold news ;)13:45
ZogG~ping13:45
infobot~pong13:45
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ZogGhttp://www.palm.com/us/products/pads/touchpad/index.html13:46
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mazingohey there13:48
ZogGJaffa, http://newsflow.substanceofcode.com/ - you should add it to MWKN13:49
mazingohas anyone some info about the musb of the n900?13:49
mazingoI'm trying to test it13:49
mazingowith high bandwidth transfers but it seems impossible13:49
JaffaZogG: Did, weeks ago.13:49
ZogGJaffa oh didn't saw it there, sorry =(13:49
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trxcan anyone tell me what "tr" does in this line : menu = menuBar()->addMenu(tr("MENU TITLE"));13:55
phellarvtrx: Trunk?13:55
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* phellarv is guessing13:56
trxtrunk?13:56
phellarvI mean truncate13:56
trxso its a function that truncates the string?13:57
trxwhy would that be nessesary :/13:57
* trx doesnt know13:57
phellarvDunno - As I said - I'm guessing13:57
trxyeah13:57
trxty anyway13:57
Jaffatrx: Translate13:57
Jaffatrx: "MENU TITLE" will be a key into one of the translation bundles.13:58
Jaffa(again, guessing)13:58
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amigadavetrx: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qobject.html#tr translate, as Jaffa said13:58
phellarvGuesstimates13:58
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phellarv;-P13:58
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trxoh13:58
trxthat makes sense :)13:58
trxthank you guys13:58
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ZogGruskie, for now i did the app with control buttons only for xmms2 =)14:20
ZogGonly play/stop/next/forward14:20
ZogGneed to get a long with Qt as xmms2 api is pretty easy14:20
ruskie:)14:21
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* Khertan is afraid by all stupid people saying that nokia should cancel meego and adopt WP7 or Android ...14:40
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SpeedEvilThey should ditch symbian, partner with sybian instead, and upgrade the vibrator motor.14:41
KhertanSpeedEvil: :)14:43
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psycho_oreosand that would make nokia awfully popular with female users :)14:44
psycho_oreosso much so that if people asked you which brand is your handset and you said nokia, they think you're being a poof ;)14:45
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kerionokia *should* cancel meego15:09
kerioAND GIVE US A REAL UNIX SYSTEM15:09
kerioDEBIAN-BASED15:09
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* jonwil wonders whether Nokia is going to come after him for using the header data in http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/icd2/policy__api_8h-source.html15:11
pupnikkerio: actually rpm no-longer sucks15:13
* Sicelo agrees with kerio15:13
keriopupnik: lies15:13
pupnikand apt itself isn't appropriate for a portable15:14
kerioit is :(15:14
ruskiehow is yum any better?15:14
user12afaik i last checked linux is not unix?15:14
pupnikit's inappropriate to rescan a huge database15:14
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ruskiefrom my own use... yum seems to be painfully slower than apt15:15
psycho_oreosyum isn't any better, it's basically yellow dog linux's package management frontend :)15:15
psycho_oreosthey now recommend zypper however15:15
ruskieunless I'm missing on some special tricks to improve it15:15
psycho_oreosO15:16
achipain either case, since dependencies are basically still uled out by the compliancy program, you don't really 'need' any of the advanced features of apt anyway :(15:16
psycho_oreosI've had my gripes with yum but that's because yum is heavily dependent on python (because the source code is essentially python). However zypper is written all in C/C++15:17
ruskiehmm can one use zypper as a drop in?15:17
psycho_oreosnot sure15:17
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pupnikandroid packages install quickly15:18
ruskiehave two fedora systems @home that I would love to swap out yum with zypper15:18
pupnikif meego package installation is slower than android, then it's a failure15:18
psycho_oreosandroid has their own fancy package based management system, like iphones15:18
pupnikso use it15:18
fluxsomeone(TM) should write a sqlite-backend for dpkg15:18
fluxand apt, while at it15:19
pupniksounds good flux15:19
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Venemohey guys15:22
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Venemogood afternoon achipa15:25
Venemoachipa: success! :) http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=6945415:26
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pupniki'm surprised the chinese didn't get it together to make a maemo phone15:27
pupnikshould be reassuring to Nokia15:28
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psycho_oreoswhat do you mean? there's n900 clones around15:30
ruskiepsycho_oreos, running maemo?15:31
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Venemopsycho_oreos: but they're not running Maemo.15:31
psycho_oreosthey claim to run maemo15:32
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Venemopsycho_oreos: interesting15:32
psycho_oreosyeah probably symbian knockoffs15:32
HtheByo :p15:32
achipaVenemo: congrats15:32
Venemopsycho_oreos: well then we know where do the 'N900s' come about which the guys are whining on TMO15:33
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psycho_oreosVenemo, probably not lol :) like I said the chinese clones claim it runs on maemo but I bet it's just maemo UI minus terminal and other things like TV receiver added15:34
Venemoachipa: it wasn't very difficult, only some stuff about packaging15:34
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Venemoachipa: and of course #if QT_VERSION >= blah-blah15:36
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sandst1wow. In terms of UI experience it's quite close to 5800Xm http://vodpod.com/watch/5085281-nokia-n900-clone15:39
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DocScrutinizeruser12: last time I checked, andridiot wasn't even linux. So usually linux feels just sysV'ish enough to me15:42
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DocScrutinizerand I don't give a fart about what package manager is used15:43
DocScrutinizerI mean we had HAM, how's that going to get worse?15:43
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DocScrutinizeruser12: btw to stay PC: it's GNU-linux, and GNU is Not Unix. So thanks for the clarification, Cpt. Obvious15:46
user12np. glad you liked.15:46
DocScrutinizerI have a special shelp where I collect those :-D15:47
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DocScrutinizershelf15:47
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RST38hYou collect Cpt Obvious badges?15:48
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DocScrutinizernah, "Linux is not Unix" statements15:48
RST38hyea, Linux is not real Unix15:49
RST38hToy Unix, at most =)15:49
DocScrutinizerI have several glasses with screw-on lid there, that hold just one week each with up to 57 such statements15:49
ruskielol15:50
ruskieconsider Linux never was Unix and nobody made a claim to such...15:50
VeggenI use to add: "but for most practical purposes, it's indistinguishable from it"15:51
user12http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification#Linux15:51
DocScrutinizerthere's no such ting like THE Unix15:51
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DocScrutinizerLinux is as much a POSIX conforming *nix as many of the so called 'real Unix'' and there's been all kinds of SysV and BSD distris since decades, and it's really hard to agree on any definition about what's a real Unix and what's not15:59
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DocScrutinizerwhen it comes to mere portability, Linux for sure is way better than some weired dinosaurs out there. HPUX might be a bad example16:00
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user12i have liked hpux, it's quite good.16:07
user12i used it over ten years almost daily.16:07
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DocScrutinizerthat's not the point though. Is it a REAL unix? Why? And why linix is NOT then?16:11
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DocScrutinizerclaiming linux is no real unix is kinda like saying DrDOS is no real DOS16:12
user12hpux compared e.g. to a ubuntu? I am not sure but i believe that ubuntu is not posix compliant.16:13
DocScrutinizersays who?16:13
user12i don't know mr who16:13
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DocScrutinizerDr Who please :-D16:13
user12:)16:13
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jacekowskilinux is a real unix16:14
user12gnu is not unix16:14
user12it's a unix like16:15
DocScrutinizerby whatever def of "ral unix" - yes it is16:15
jacekowskiit's just that it has no common codebase16:15
jacekowskibut it's as much unix as any other unixes16:15
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DocScrutinizerexactly16:15
user12then it should register as posix compliant, which it has not done.16:16
jacekowskino16:16
user12yes16:16
jacekowskito register as posix compliant you would have to register every single version16:16
jacekowskiand there is too many of them16:16
DocScrutinizeruser12: I bet you're free to do that, for the distri of your dreams16:16
DocScrutinizerNB POSIX is NOT unix either16:17
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ThreeMit doesen't matter how we are linux call. linux or unix... senseless discussion16:17
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DocScrutinizerI.E: afaik even winNT is kinda posix compatible :-P16:17
user12yep16:17
jacekowskiuser12: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base16:17
user12i wonder why it is just enough that Linux is Linux (c)16:18
DocScrutinizerwhile I doubt HPUX is16:18
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Dado7hi people16:19
Dado7good days16:19
Dado7some people know this new? http://thehandheldblog.com/2011/02/0...s-meego-maemo/ app android run in n90016:19
DocScrutinizeranyway last time I checked I found the friggin lot of (1p) (3p) etc in linux manpages16:20
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user12posix is actually "portable operating system interface (for unix)" if Linux doesn't want to conforn that it's ok by me.16:20
DocScrutinizerand it's rare linux doesn't comply 100% with one of those16:20
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user12problem should not be that "there is so many of linuxes" that it is difficult to conform posix16:21
user12i think even some doses and nt conforms it + osx ofc16:22
user12but it really does not matter.16:22
JaffaDado7: Yes, old news ;-)16:22
DocScrutinizerThough POSIX initially defined some unix system call conventions, it's nowadays way more and beyond, and applicable to OS that for sure are NOT unixoid. So I wonder what POSIX conformity got to do with definition of "real unix"16:22
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DocScrutinizerWin7 fully compliant to POSIX via compatibility feature - so is Win7 a true unix now? :-P16:26
DocScrutinizerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX#Compliant_via_compatibility_feature16:26
DocScrutinizerthe simple fact: there is no such thing like THE TRUE UNIX.16:28
DocScrutinizerOS-A might be 70% SUS compliant (add list of conflicts here), plus 98% POSIX compliant (add another list), and 100% src portable to OS-B and OS-C, where OS-B maybe is a "real unix" by any arbitrary definition someone likes to apply16:31
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DocScrutinizerwell, s/100%/99.8%/16:31
DocScrutinizerwhile OS-B and OS-D are a PITA to port src, though both claim to be "real UNIX"16:32
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anidel_as far as I know , real Unix only come with a Unix Trademark (like Mac OS X)...16:34
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anidel_but for me, they all are...16:34
jacekowskiuser12: posix requires pretty much nothing to conform16:34
jacekowskiuser12: it's couple basic system calls16:34
RST38hI have seen real Unix sold for about $15, suitable for drying laundry in tight spaces16:34
jacekowskiuser12: that's why posix is useless16:34
jacekowskiwindows conforms16:35
jacekowskibsd conforms16:35
user12and some unices cost more than a house and is rock solid16:35
jacekowskiosx conforms16:35
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jacekowskibut try to port app from one to another16:35
jacekowskimore complicated app using graphic stuff16:35
user12you mean like posix/x11 app?16:36
jacekowskiyes16:36
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user12afaik qt was first ported on symbian using posix like lib16:36
jacekowskithere was company that linux fully certified that it conforms to sus and posix16:37
jacekowskibut nobody cared16:37
chxwhat if feb11 is a super Linux OS running Dalvin and Symbian VMs?16:37
chx*Dalvik16:37
user12yep, not even thy16:37
RST38hAhhahaha: http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/10/amazon-app-released-for-the-newest-windows-phone-7-models/16:37
jacekowskichx: /16:37
DocScrutinizerhah, 1999 when I worked for Siemens, I tried to compile nedit for their crippled unix flavour. The c compiler blew chunks on help strings defines in text hardcoded, that were multiple lines and >64k :-P16:38
jacekowskichx: ?16:38
chxjust thinking aloud16:38
DocScrutinizerI bet it was a "real unix"16:38
RST38hdon't pay attention he is being delusional16:38
derfWell, technically that's far more than C is required to support.16:39
user12do you know how many MS engineers are needed to change a burned light bulb ?16:39
derfPOSIX or not.16:39
RST38h1999 C, you mean16:39
chxWAIT.16:39
chxhttp://www.linkedin.com/jobs?viewJob=&jobId=1256034&srchIndex=31&trk=njsrch_hits&goback=.fjs_nokia_*1_*1_Y_*1_*1_*1_4_R_true_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*2_*216:40
chxMicrosoft and Nokia have formed a global alliance to design, develop and market mobile productivity, communications and collaboration solutions.16:40
chxshit!16:40
RST38hHe will become more delusional right about now.16:40
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DocScrutinizerchx: WAKE UP IT'S A DRAM!!!16:40
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chxDocScrutinizer: lol16:40
DocScrutinizerDREAM*16:40
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chxit was better with DRAM.16:41
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: moin16:41
chxit's ephemeral enough :)16:41
RST38hwell, moo javispedro16:41
javispedromorning16:42
DocScrutinizerchx: >>These solutions will be available for a broad range of Nokia smartphones starting with the company’s business optimized range, Nokia E series. Over 50 Nokia devices today have Exchange ActiveSync capabilities and several models have Communicator Mobile (for OCS) capabilities developed by Microsoft engineers on the Nokia platform....<< So what?16:43
derfRST38h: Microsoft still doesn't even support 1999 C.16:44
chxDocScrutinizer: is that the end of MS-Nokia? Nokia doing WM7 would be a nightmare.16:44
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DocScrutinizerchx: Novel and M$ also have a partnership. That doesn't mean OpenSuse is a windows in disguise now16:44
hardakerNo, the partnership means MS will now switch to using linux and Qt.16:45
javispedroin fact Nokia and M$ _already_ have a partnership.16:45
javispedroand I'm yet to see Bill Gates having written Hildon Microsoft Office.16:45
DocScrutinizerLOL16:45
psycho_oreoswould sir like bloat with that16:46
* DocScrutinizer hands chx a cup of very strong, hot, black coffee16:46
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* psycho_oreos then points to OpenOffice running on n90016:46
chxRight now, unless Nokia pulls a freakin miracle tomorrow i will go HP Vero and hope for a quick rooting and debian chroot.16:47
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javispedrochx: pre's don't need rooting.16:47
DocScrutinizer*burp*16:47
javispedros/pre's/pres16:47
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chxjavispedro: so far16:47
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javispedrochanging that would be like if Nokia were to change that16:48
DocScrutinizerthat's suicide in fear of death16:48
javispedromassive riots16:48
javispedrocats and dogs living together16:48
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DocScrutinizer(going pre when Nokia doesn't come up with alternatives for meego)16:49
dado7[Away] demasiado autismo -autoaway, 15 mins-  (Log:Pager) desde el 10 Feb 15:49:1616:49
javispedroso what good did came from the previous nokia-microsoft partnertship?16:49
DocScrutinizerdado7: fix that!!16:49
javispedrosomething about crappy exchange support in e series?16:49
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javispedroand, if the rumours are to be believed (which I doubt), what they're going to say on friday? "Hey guys, we're re-partnering with Bill Gates. So far our partnership produced nothing save for crap, but this time, it'll will be different!"16:51
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DocScrutinizermuhahaha16:51
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dado7He regresado! (demasiado autismo -autoaway, 15 mins-) (Away: 3m48s) desde el 10 Feb 15:49:1616:53
chxdado7: remove your autoaway script you are spamming the channel16:53
chxhey the exchange support in the e series work to some degree.16:53
dado7okey16:53
dado7sorry16:53
DocScrutinizer"M$ will use Nokia HW from now on, as they think they can't get it done in their own labs"? or "Nokia will switch to winMo now, just to compensate for the diversity we already have, with sybian, maemo, meego"?16:53
chxThis relaly needs to be Symbian compatible, a number of businesses have custom Symbian apps16:54
chxand i mean , that's pretty much the reason the Symbian platform stayed alive if i get what happened16:54
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DocScrutinizerdado7: we're not really interested if you're away or not16:55
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pupnik how about renaming MS exchange to MS enslave16:55
DocScrutinizerdado7: nobody expects you're sitting at terminal 24/716:56
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KhertanIt s funny noone talk about using WebOS instead of MeeGo :)17:15
javispedroKhertan: that's, ironically, because you're not on #meego17:15
javispedrowhere I just inadvertently introduced the topic.17:15
Khertanhihi17:16
Khertan:)17:16
pupniki'm happy DocScrutinizer recognized that Japan song17:16
Khertanit ll made the link with Ari Jaaksi17:16
DocScrutinizerjapan, dude. One of my favourites17:17
pupnikcool17:17
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DocScrutinizeractually it's been 2 japan recors plus 3 sisters of mercy records that were all I needed on mp3 (rsp flac) for 4 years17:19
pupnikRichard Barbieri made beautiful use of the Oberheim synthesizers on 'Ghosts' and 'The Experience of Swimming'17:21
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pupnikBetween midnight and 7 AM I recorded in a studio Sylvian was using during the day. :)17:22
DocScrutinizerhehe17:22
pupniklocated in a giant, abandoned brewery17:22
pupnikpretty surreal17:22
DocScrutinizerthat's just OK for a studio17:23
DocScrutinizerEinstuerzende Neubauten had a practicing room *inside* a highway bridge (the road was the room's ceiling)17:24
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pupnikhah17:28
Sicelo~fud17:28
infobotsomebody said fud was Fear, uncertainty, doubt. Originally invented by IBM, but now used by many others. or YAFA. or Fscking Useless Data or otherwise known as false information or mindless facts with no backup facts or http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=742017:28
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pupnikhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Barbieri  some more of Jansen, Barbieri and Karn's stuff is listed here DocScrutinizer - worth a listen imo17:29
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Azoghi, i am trying to get usb0 working with dhcp, so i put "iface usb0 inet dhcp" in /etc/network/interfaces, unfortunately i geht the error: don't seem to have all the variables for usb0/inet. is there a workaround?17:31
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pupnikdid you add the hostname / IP address of your dhcp server Azog ?17:35
Azogpupnik: no17:35
Azogwith eth0 it works without17:35
pupnikhmm i'm thinking of the wrong thing maybe17:36
DocScrutinizerpupnik: HAH! >During this time he worked alongside such other innovators as... Robert Fripp"17:36
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DocScrutinizerinevitable17:37
pupnik:D17:37
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DocScrutinizerKC, my roots (along with FZ)17:37
KhertanDocScrutinizer: about Einstuerzende Neubauten << now i understand where there music come from ... :)17:38
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DocScrutinizerhehehe17:38
pupnikyou can hear fripp and jon hassell on silvian's solo work - used to great effect17:38
Azogpupnik: i thought the advantage of dhcp is, that one has to specify nothing *g*17:38
DocScrutinizerjon hassell, another good one17:38
pupnikyeah i'd forgotten Azog17:39
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pupnikwow DocScrutinizer, respect17:39
pupnik"mastering obscure... alternatives"17:40
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qpdbhello. i'm unable to connect to wpa/wpa2 wireless networks.. if i change my router to use WEP it works fine.17:48
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SpeedEvilOdd.17:49
SpeedEvilWorks for me.17:49
SpeedEvilTKIP or what?17:50
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qpdbit worked for me too, for a long time.. but since some days it doesnt anymore.. i tried tkip as well as aes17:50
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DocScrutinizerwell, I see "no route to host" when pinging my N900 since I switched to WPA - prolly unrelated18:07
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DocScrutinizeralso now see lags of up to 120s(!!) on pressing first keystroke on a idle ssh session into N90018:09
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BCMM_DocScrutinizer: you're using wireless power-saving right?18:09
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BCMM_(and your router does it wrong?)18:09
javispedrorouters suck.18:10
DocScrutinizererr for WPA now yup I do18:10
BCMM_javispedro: mostly, yeah18:10
DocScrutinizerlemme check18:10
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BCMM_when power saving works right, it's totally cool though18:10
BCMM_the way the n900 will sit idle on the net for *days*, on battery18:10
javispedroCan you even buy a gigabit router these days for less than $100 and that doesn't require an extra power supply18:10
javispedro?18:10
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DocScrutinizeryap, MAX PSM18:11
BCMM_yeah sounds like your router sucks18:11
BCMM_i had one with the same problem18:11
DocScrutinizer~lart the designer who decided to hide this global setting in "advanced" of a connection18:12
* infobot slams the designer who decided to hide this global setting in "advanced" of a connection against a large cement Tux18:12
BCMM_but it's a setting you'll never really want to use unless you have a buggy router18:12
BCMM_they probably didn't realise how many routers are buggy.18:12
DocScrutinizerchanged to "none" - let's watch that shite for another 5 days18:13
BCMM_i mean, it wouldn't be a problem if the router didn't support PSM18:13
BCMM_it's only a problem when it features an implementation, but that implementation is broken18:14
DocScrutinizerd-link DIR-615 - anybody?18:14
DocScrutinizer(in AP mode)18:14
BCMM_best to disable it in the router's settings, if it doesn't actually work18:15
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DocScrutinizerFirmware-Version : 4.10 ,  Thu 22 Jan 200918:15
DocScrutinizerGNU GPL included with manual18:16
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tripzeroluls... love the topic18:17
tripzerolibqtm-12-declarative = most useless package ever18:17
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tripzeroit doesn't even install the declarative plugin :(18:18
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DocScrutinizernm, should update AP FW first, then start bitching18:19
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hardakerI just saw a leaked document from Nokia18:24
hardakerThey explained their alliance with MS18:24
hardakerM$ has ported Win7 to the N900.  The April update will include it.18:24
* tripzero doesn't want to hear it18:24
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tripzerohardaker, stop18:24
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* tripzero upgrades router18:26
BCMM_I just saw a leaked USAF document revealing that Nokia's next smartphone will have reverse-engineered alien tech from a UFO. Also, it specifically says that hardaker is wrong.18:26
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tripzeroBCMM_, +118:26
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hardakerheh.18:27
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smhar_I gave up trying to free more space in my N900's rootfs to upgrade to PR1.3 . I am  considering now Backing up my data and factory reset the N00 and starting fresh. probably a good thing to do after all the time I spend with the different repositories.  My question is: what to files/directories backup?18:31
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hardakersmhar_: the default backup application gets 99% of the important stuff.18:32
BCMM_smhar_: why factory reset? just flash 1.3, it'll overwrite everything18:32
hardakerthe things I'd consider keeping would be the /etc directory if you've modified anything, and the keysym file if you've modified your keymap.18:33
BCMM_smhar_: depends what you've modified. have you manually added anything to ~/ or system directories like /etc/?18:33
hardakerbut yes, just flash.. you don't need to "reset"18:33
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smhar_BCMM_, done only a OTA before, I will read about flashing too18:33
BCMM_i really wouldn't keep the entire /etc/ directory; i'm sure they'll be some differences in 1.318:33
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hardakersmhar_: I don't think I've ever done OTA because I *never* have enough room on /18:34
smhar_BCMM_, nothing special18:34
hardakerBCMM_: copying it somewhere until you know is what I meant, not necessarily a permenant archive.18:34
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hardakerI always end up needing to do something with /etc/ssh afterward18:35
BCMM_smhar_: btw, in theory, your MyDocs shouldn't be affected by reflashing18:35
BCMM_smhar_: of course, you should backup anything important anyway, as with any OS update on any platform18:35
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crashanddiehardaker, gtfo with you stupid claims?19:09
hardakergtfo?19:09
hardaker(I'm guessing at the f :-)19:09
hardakerohh...  out.19:09
hardakerthat was the word I couldn't get.19:09
hardakergot it.19:09
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DocScrutinizerI never touched /etc/ssh19:18
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DocScrutinizerhi crashanddie19:18
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crashanddieyo19:18
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DocScrutinizerduh, thought I missed something funny while offline, but nope...19:21
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DocScrutinizeraah, crashanddie responded to the April PR pun19:22
DocScrutinizerwell, see /topic19:23
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crashanddiewell, that's why I told him to gtfo19:23
crashanddieit's in the topic, thus bannable19:23
DocScrutinizeryeah, got it19:23
_berto_7:30 am ??19:24
DocScrutinizerI'm just happy when it's Friday evening19:24
_berto_http://twitter.com/#!/nokia/status/3574828010098278519:24
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DocScrutinizereh? twitter URL without further notice? Looks like SPAM to me19:25
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_berto_DocScrutinizer: it is, don't open it19:25
_berto_;-)19:25
DocScrutinizerwell, do you try to earn a ban, a kick, or just a +q?19:25
SpeedEvil                            http://conversations.nokia.com will be the hub for tomorrow’s Nokia strategy announcement starting around 7:30am GMT19:26
Proteousban the witch!19:26
Proteoushe turned me into a newt!19:26
DocScrutinizer(btw I*never* open random URLs)19:26
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DocScrutinizeresp not when they start as scary as http://twitter19:27
_berto_DocScrutinizer: even when they're from the nokia account and you're in the #maemo channel?19:27
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DocScrutinizereven then. How should I know about any fsckng account on a page I refuse to open?19:28
_berto_fair enough, it might even be a virus :-)19:28
DocScrutinizerit usually IS a virus19:29
DocScrutinizerand I'm not going to open any random URL to see why the FSCK somebody posted it to IRC19:29
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DocScrutinizerif you CBA to comment what it is, how can I bother to check what it actually is?19:30
crashanddieDocScrutinizer, in _berto_'s defence, "Nokia" was in the URL?19:31
SpeedEvilAnd twitter ... / nokia/ means that the account name is nokia19:31
DocScrutinizeryeah, I get mails with URLs like that every day a dozen: http://fslkhdhs.ru/DeutscheBank/login19:31
Proteous_berto_: the correct way to paste in a link is something like, "free c3al1s v14gr4 www.tinyurl.com/39&89"19:32
_berto_Proteous: indeed19:32
crashanddieBut then again, so is this: http://lemonparty.org/?article=Apple-Jobs-To-Buy-Nokia19:32
crashanddie(NSFW)19:32
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ieatlintheh, next post the goatse article on it19:33
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javispedrobash: bash: File or directory not found19:38
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javispedrobash: bash: Success19:38
* javispedro sighs19:38
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RST38hNewly relevant for this channel: "Windows Phone 7's copy and paste update now coming in March?"20:55
pupnikhah20:56
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pupnikdid get rather quiet didn't it20:56
RST38hWas pretty lively today20:56
RST38halso lots of analyst lemmings at #meego providing Nokia with free analyticaladvice20:56
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andre__hehe, what a perfect wording for this20:58
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ieatlintnokia's just in a fucked situation... they're screwed with meego, they're screwed with abandoning meego21:02
pupnikhttp://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/02/how-one-security-firm-tracked-anonymousand-paid-a-heavy-price.ars21:02
pupnikbaahaha21:03
RST38hWell, they have dug this ditch by themselves21:03
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: luke-jr, whom-it-may-concern: ISI specs actually mention how to talk GPS and even AGPS to cmt, it's called Modem LCS (Location Server) there. ((actually Mickey found this, so credit goes to him))21:03
ieatlintthey just better make damn sure if they switch to MS software that it doesn't just die off too21:03
ieatlintandroid is the safer choice :P21:03
ieatlintbut either way, they're fucking themselves over with qt21:03
ieatlintthey should've just bought palm last year... webos is at least viable in the short term21:04
ieatlintand had a huge dev community21:04
pupnikdid anyone ever figure out a low-cpu speaker protection thingy?21:04
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DocScrutinizermickey claims he found quite some non-specs conforming implementation details in N900 RAPUYAMA BB5 cmt, so while the LCS cmds might be ok, the data structures might differ and need some work21:04
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: pretty sure there were no such specs when I reverse engineered it21:05
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: I guess mickey is using latest release, which iirc is of january21:05
RST38hpupnik: The Barr guy did notgetthe point? =)21:06
GeneralAntillesHow the hell do I get an FLV out of a Flip video share. . . .21:06
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kwtmieatlint: Sounds like you're saying that my N900 might be the last of a breed, and don't expect any new wonders from Nokia any time soon?21:06
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ieatlintkwtm: wtf do i know, i'm just a random dude on irc..21:06
RST38hieatlint: Thank you for providing your strategic advice to Nokia!21:07
ieatlintreuters says the n9 has been cancelled... but they themselves call it rumour, citing two unnamed nokia sources21:07
ieatlintRST38h: np21:07
kwtmieatlint: Some random dudes on irc are worth paying attention to. :)21:07
ieatlintthe two nokia employees standing 10 feet from me are talking about selling stock21:07
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ieatlintactually, i lied, they're sitting21:07
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kwtmieatlint: Good F Grief, I better treat the keyboard and the USB port on my N900 *very* nicely if I want it to last the next 10 years before someone else comes out with a Linux phone...21:08
RST38htell us when they lie down and take the pills21:08
SpeedEvilWoo!21:08
SpeedEvilLet us all buy the stock, and MAKE them do harmattan properly!21:08
pupnikkwtm: i wore through my keyboard in 5 months :)21:08
ieatlintkwtm: don't worry, the cpu and battery will die well before the keyboard21:08
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RST38hIn the meanwhile, http://godheadv.blogspot.com/2010/04/abandoned-on-everest.html21:08
ieatlintoh, and the usb connector :P21:08
alteregoThey said a candidate prototype that was going to be the N9 got scrapped21:09
alteregoNot exactly the same thing.21:09
SpeedEvil40 billion / 445 people = 90 million or so.21:09
SpeedEvilI'm in - anyone else?21:09
ieatlintalterego: heh, if it just happened, then it is21:09
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ieatlintthe n9 will be something else, and delayed by another 6+ months21:09
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: g2, i_modem_lcs_fp.pdf21:09
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ieatlintand if nokia can't get a meego phone out until the end of the year.... heh21:10
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kwtmieatlint: I don't get Nokia ... is this an internal power struggle?  "Let's make Maemo!"  "No, let21:10
kwtmieatlint: I don't get Nokia ... is this an internal power struggle?  "Let's make Maemo!"  "No, let's make Meego!"  "No, the N9 will be a Symbian based phone!"  Geez....21:10
ieatlintkwtm: *if* the rumours prove true, it's more a shakeup it seems... hire an outsider CEO who changes a bunch of shit21:11
ieatlintlest they go the way of yahoo..21:11
pupnikcool RST38h21:11
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: <mickey|bbl> i have found significant differences between the documented subsystems and the actual implementation in N900     <mickey|bbl> so although the basic interaction is documented, the data structure might need work21:11
RST38hpupnik: I knew you would like that morbid crap21:11
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pupniki didn't know it was so deadly21:12
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ieatlinti know that tomorrow's announcement will not include an abandonment of qt at least21:12
SpeedEvilI bet it's an announcement that they are going to be releasing some W7 models.21:13
ieatlintis there any reason to believe W7 other than the ceo is from MS?21:13
SpeedEvilI will in fact go so far as to put down as a bet this 38g lump of corned beef.21:13
piggzso, has everyone given up hope without waiting for th announcement?21:14
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ieatlinti'll bet this half cup of coffee that part the announcement will be related to the n821:14
SpeedEvilIt's unlikely to be Ios, android IMO.21:14
ieatlintdefinitely not iphone... apple would never do that21:14
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SpeedEvilhttp://farm6.static.flickr.com/5131/cameras/72157622207392889_graph_model_users_afa437ff78.png21:15
* SpeedEvil sighs.21:15
ieatlintwindows 7 is .net based, unproven, requires licencing, has tiny app base .... android is java based (not any better, maybe worse), free licencing, large app base, and is a word that in itself is a selling point...21:16
ieatlintso yeah, based on nokia's past decisions, it'll be the less viable option21:16
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SpeedEvilI think they're going to try to use W7 as a fill-in till meego is ready.21:16
ieatlint(that is, welcome back Qtopia!)21:16
Arkenoii've heared some guys ported dalvik to meego, so why abandon it at all to run andrioid software if you can use best of both worlds?21:17
SpeedEvilI'm of course utterly pulling this out of my arse.21:17
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Arkenoinokia could just buy out that company21:17
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: (40 billion) wait until tomorrow, will get muuuuch cheaper :-P21:17
MohammadAGsometimes, you just have to move on21:17
MohammadAGbought my dad an iPhone 421:17
wmaroneSpeedEvil: you are now qualified to be a financial analyst21:17
SpeedEvilwmarone: Well - I just spent half an hour looking through regulations, in order to find out that the government had not been mis-rounding a payment to me down by 10p.21:18
SpeedEvilWhich is one of the less productive things I've done today.21:18
ieatlintcould be worse... i've been sitting in a qscript presentation for the last hour21:19
SpeedEvilIndeed.21:19
* ieatlint is in a "cover 90% of qt" session this week21:20
ieatlint8h/day of slides :(21:20
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DocScrutinizer*cough*21:20
DocScrutinizerieatlint: condolences - qt is going to die when Nokia is switching to redmonf universe :-P21:21
RST38hthey will port qt to .net!21:21
DocScrutinizererr, qscript, wait What?21:21
DocScrutinizerWTF qscript?21:21
ieatlintsoon i'll be like one of those guys who says "i know fortran" or "i know cobol"21:21
MohammadAGwhen's MWC again?21:22
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: hence the reason i'm not paying attention right now21:22
ieatlintMohammadAG: monday21:22
DocScrutinizerieatlint: don't call names on me, I LOVE COBOL21:22
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: and it's so useful...21:22
ieatlintit's like me knowing a bit of EFL... "that's cool .. i guess"21:22
DocScrutinizersure, check the SORT command with all its parameters. Unique in whole IT21:23
GAN900MohammadAG, 13/14th21:23
* RST38h likes the positive mood at this channel21:23
DocScrutinizerI bet there's no other coding lang that can sortmerge 2 sets of 5 trillion records each, in less lines of sourcecode and better optimized21:24
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kwtmieatlint: What do you do? Are you at Nokia?  Wait, no you're at a conference --that's why there are two Nokia bodies near you.  Do you make software for a living, then?21:24
GAN900My September proto is now getting cellular interference on its own speakers. . . .21:24
RST38hIf we are lucky, dear punks, Nokia wil produce a handful of WP7 handsets for the US market, they will tank, things will get back to Symbian, Meego in the sky, and loathing at the ground.21:24
ieatlintkwtm: i bitch and whine. i'm not at nokia, nor a conference... there happen to be two nokia employees at this session as well.  i do software, yes21:25
javispedroand if we aren't ?21:25
RST38hIf we are unlucky, the whole Nokia will tank.21:25
derfIf we're lucky, we'll all buy Android phones and like it.21:25
kerio:(21:25
kerioi don't like android!21:25
pupnikbut i don't like android21:25
RST38hderf: I am considering it21:25
derfYes, that's because you're unlucky.21:25
DocScrutinizerGAN900: HEH! BUZZ  issue - muhahaha, that'S (C) FR21:25
RST38hderf: But the thing is surprisingly immature at the closer sight21:26
derfRST38h: I am not surprised.21:26
wmaroneAndroid: how to sucker people into stopping work on actual open source projects21:26
RST38hderf: Did not expect it not to have a decent Xvid player.21:26
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RST38hderf:Still, it is probably Streak2 or something similar for me, eventually21:27
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GeneralAntilleswmarone: that's why Android is so much more evil than iOS can ever be.21:28
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: +121:28
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derfGeneralAntilles: Sadly, that's not entirely true.21:28
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RST38hit is disturbing to see you rate software in terms of good and evil...21:29
derfThere's a whole generation of programmers who _would_ have gone into open source who now think they can "monetize" their work in an App Store.21:29
RST38hI mean, it is just a bunch of code...21:29
RST38hderf;: and no, can't monetize much via the app store, it is about as solid as "american dream"21:30
GeneralAntillesderf: yes, but Android is undermining half the existing open source community.21:30
DocScrutinizerRST38h: nah, we're talking ecosystems here, or call it paradigm if you like that better21:30
derfRST38h: I know that, and you know that, but they don't.21:30
RST38hpoor lemmings, they will learn21:30
derfBut it's training them to think giving away source code is "stupid".21:31
RST38hyou want their source?21:31
RST38hin java, with google extensions?21:31
derfI don't want to be doing this forever.21:31
SpeedEvil1derf: Arduino will save us!21:32
derfThere's systems I would never work on, but I'm happy that somebody does.21:32
derfLike, anything involving Qt.21:32
RST38hwhat is wrong with qt?21:32
derfIt's written in C++.21:32
DocScrutinizertbh, all I've seen so far from andridiot was utterly stupid, they have NFC about what'S a proper OS and which implications they run into when messing around with kernel and system libs just for fun. And then they think that's "contributing to FOSS" when they feed back that crap to linux and shove it down the throat of working distros21:33
RST38hhm..ok, what is wrong with C++ then?21:33
derfRST38h: We've had this conversation before, and it's besides the point.21:33
RST38h(as long as you avoid stl, exceptions and most teplates)21:33
RST38hderf: Yea21:33
RST38hderf: But I still fail to see the pointin aversion to C++21:34
derfI'm not asking you to.21:34
derfI'm asking you to accept that _I_ don't like it.21:34
RST38hderf: Except maybe for the fact that you get into a bit of dll hell with it :)21:34
derfBut that doesn't mean I'm not happy there are open-source C++ projects.21:34
RST38hhm, ok21:35
kwtmderf: Sorry to drag this out --I myself haven't had this conversation with you before, so I'll ask as an outsider who doesn't know C++: is there something about C++ that would make you suggest that I not learn it, or is it just a personal preference?21:36
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DocScrutinizerkwtm: the C++ gurus of this world think they are a group of maybe 20 that *really* master C++21:37
DocScrutinizersome of them think C++ is overly sophisticated21:38
* RST38h is not a C++ guru and so has no problems suggesting to learn C++, just do it cautiously21:39
DocScrutinizerrecent research seems to indicate C++ doesn't help on productivity or code quality of large projects21:39
kwtmDocScrutinizer: Okay ... but is it worth learning even if I don't master it?  Of course, this depends on my own personal situation, but in general, for someone who works with FOSS and would like to be able to write small programs quickly, maybe use Qt, is it worth learning?21:39
derfkwtm: Nothing personal, but I have better things to do today than rant against C++. Google for logs of this channel if you really care.21:39
RST38hAs "C++ to C is what lung cancer is to lungs"21:39
derfRST38h: Hahaha.21:39
kwtmAh, I see.  So, in summary, it is an unnecessary complication to using C to do the same thing.21:40
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DocScrutinizerkwtm: definitely yes21:40
DocScrutinizeryou can't use Qt without basic C++ knowledge21:40
kwtmThe reason I ask is because I plan to use PyQt to put up some simple GUI scripts, and was wondering if it would be a good investment to learn C++ in order to use Qt to the fullest.21:40
kwtmDocScrutinizer: I suspect that my meaning of the phrase "use Qt" is much more liberal than yours. :)21:41
kwtmI guess gone are the days when C++ was going to save the world ...21:41
RST38hkwtm: When used carefully, C++ will help you better organize your code21:42
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: do you have link to that spec21:42
RST38hkwtm: When used to the full "power", it will blow your brains out21:43
DocScrutinizerkwtm: at very least you need a good understanding of OO concepts, no matter if that's C++ or any other OO language. Qt however is genuine C++21:43
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: isi shit?21:43
kwtmDocScrutinizer: Yeah, I think I don't fully get OO yet.  I use OO features of Python but I think I'll get laughed out of town if I show my code to anyone.21:44
jacekowskiyes21:44
DocScrutinizermompls21:44
kwtmMy own impression of C++ is "it was supposed to be a superset of C but when it compiles my C code it chokes on  'main(int argc, char *argv)' because there's no 'void' in front of 'main()' " and then it went downhill from there.21:45
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RST38hkwtm: actually,  your main()is supposed to return int21:45
RST38hwhen you skip return type, "int" is assumed21:45
RST38hbut your "char *argv" is incorrect anyway, either in C or in C++21:46
kwtmRST38h: Yeah, but I didn't know that when I wrote my C programs, and I just didn't want to bother going back to change everything I had written for the two years previous ... (This was before I started with Linux)21:46
RST38hso, maybe you should not blame C++ for your mistakes21:46
kwtmRST38h: Well, it was an example of how C++ is much stricter for return values ... I haven't done C programming for decades now, so not surprised that I got it wrong...21:47
ieatlintuse char **argv, it confuses people who claim to know c/c++ but don't21:47
RST38hconst char *argv[] is the best option21:47
RST38hclearest21:47
ieatlintconst is a good idea... the notation is otherwise entirely visual...21:48
ieatlintalthough i think argv is actually writable, just a bad idea to alter21:48
alteregoIt is, glib and Qt do it.21:51
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alteregoand gtk though that's kind of related to glib.21:52
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ieatlintin which case you'll get an error/warning specifying const argv and then passing it to gtk/qt21:54
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: http://www.wirelessmodemapi.com/21:55
DocScrutinizer1-Feb-2011 Wireless Modem API Release G2.V2-11W05 available. No changes to G1 API.21:56
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: ^^^21:56
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ieatlinthmmm, if i can rent a big white bus, i could go drive to one of the google shuttle stops near hear and pick up ~20 employees and drive them somewhere random long before they realize i'm not actually the google shuttle..22:03
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lauriHey guys, is Maemo/MeeGo going to participate on GSoC this year?22:32
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blue_ledanyone had compiled fbset ?22:34
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pupnikblue_led: there's some interesting low-level capabilities of omap3 that can be exposed to fbset22:38
pupniklike a second framebuffer as an overlay running at a different resolution22:38
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blue_led@pupnik : i want to play with fb0 but i don't have fbset  . do you have it ?22:40
ZogGOn #feb11 wear a #MeeGo shirt if you have one. We are #MeeGo and we're proud of our project no matter what happens.22:40
ZogGlol22:40
ZogGsomeone is wiiling to sent me meego t-shirt or maemo t-shirt i22:41
ZogGll buy22:41
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pupnikblue_led: i'm a little too uninformed about all this22:43
* RST38h will wear the Cthulhu tshirt22:43
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pupnikbarr is such a joker, i hate him22:47
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ieatlinti'm going to a meego event at nokia's campus tonight... maybe i can find a shirt22:47
wmaronesee that's the downside to living up in folsom, all the interesting mobile stuff is down in the bay area22:48
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ieatlintfolsom? hmmm... i think i met you at a meego event in sf last september22:49
wmaroneyeah I was there22:49
ieatlintyeah, i was the guy with the n900 and the magnetic stripe card thing..22:49
wmaroneright, I have your business card22:49
ieatlinthaha, ok22:50
ieatlinthi22:50
ZogGwmarone folsom? are you johnny cash?22:50
wmaroneno, no22:51
wmaronebut the prison is here in town22:51
maybeWTFat least mubarak hasn't yet announced egypt will switch to windows phone 722:51
ieatlinthaha22:51
* ZogG xmms2> Joaquin Phoenix - Folsom Prison Blues ["Walk The Line OST" 2005]22:51
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ZogGmaybeWTF you are too late he did, but actually it's Windows mobile 6.522:52
ZogGBCMM, setting up funtoo on laptop22:52
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ZogGportage is nicer there22:52
ZogGfull git thing not like in gentoo or i need to turn it on somewhere?22:53
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RST38hpupnik: Barr is a funny idiot22:53
RST38hpupnik: And it looks like Anonymous will have him for dinner22:54
pupnikhis use of language is incredibly annoying22:54
javispedroDocScrutinizer: (re http://www.wirelessmodemapi.com/ ) will registering there make the dl links appear?22:56
javispedroor it's just a trap?22:56
DocScrutinizernah it works, though it's a PITA for some reason, like fubar js or sth22:56
ZogGwhere?22:56
ZogGlemme see22:56
ZogGwant to eat!!!22:57
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DocScrutinizeralso I can't find my credentials of last time, So asked for "resend" and waiting since 30min now22:57
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BCMMWhat's the speaker that calls some out of when not in hands-free mode called? Can I make normal sound come out through it?22:59
DocScrutinizerearpiece22:59
DocScrutinizer?22:59
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Sc0rpiushow do you get those fancy hostnames here in Freenode?23:02
Sc0rpiusSignoff: mc_teo (~hah@unaffiliated/mcteo/x-951735)23:02
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Sc0rpiussince I come from Efnet/Undernet, I know nothing about this network23:02
BCMMSc0rpius: hostmasks, like mine?23:02
Sc0rpiusyeah like those23:02
Sc0rpiuslike the one you have23:02
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skrullisI have fucked up my n900! I was going to change the big user filesystem from vfat to ext2 and that went okay. Then I changed a bit in /etc/fstab /usr/sbin/mmc-mount and /usr/sbin/osso-mmc-mount.sh. Regrettably, I didn't check these files for syntax error before I rebooted the device. Now it just reboots over and over again when I try to start it... what can I do? Is it possible to start it somehow in a hackable way?23:03
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nidOyour easiest option is a reflash23:04
skrullisit would be fun to avoid that.23:05
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Sc0rpiusI suppose you DON'T have BackupMenu23:06
BCMMSc0rpius: they're called cloaks; you can ask for an unaffiliated one in #freenode23:06
Sc0rpiusok thx BCMM23:06
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BCMMSc0rpius: as for project ones like MohammadAG wears, i guess you have to ask the project in question23:07
Sc0rpiusyeah I might23:07
Sc0rpiusand I suppose somebody like X-Fade assigns them23:08
MohammadAGyes23:08
MohammadAGactually, he asks Freenode staff to assign them, he can't assign cloaks23:08
javispedroDocScrutinizer: very interesting, nice find!23:08
Sc0rpiusoh I thought he was an IRC op here23:08
BCMMso who gets Maemo cloaks?23:08
MohammadAGhe's just the channel owners23:09
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MohammadAGowner*23:09
DocScrutinizerskrullis: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Using_Rescue_Initrd23:09
BCMMSc0rpius: cloaks aren't a channel thing, they're network-wide23:09
MohammadAGthere's a wiki about it23:09
MohammadAGTask:IRC_cloaks I think23:09
MohammadAGor Task:IRC_Cloaks, idk23:10
Sc0rpiusexactly, and like I said, I though X-Fade was an IRC op23:10
Sc0rpiusa Freenode IRC op23:11
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MohammadAGnah23:12
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MohammadAGhe owns the channel and has it registered on Freenode so we can get cloaks23:12
skrullisDocScrutinizer: thanks man, exactly what I need23:13
lardman|homehmm, /me now remembers why -testing is so bad23:13
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DocScrutinizergetting a unaffiliated cloak is much more painless.23:15
Sc0rpiusI suppose...23:16
DocScrutinizeras usually you need freenode-staff, group-owner, and the user receiving cloak, all being online and available at same time23:16
Sc0rpiushttp://drippler.com/nokia_n900/nokia-kills-first-meego-phone-windowsandroid-phone-now-certain/?utm_source=wordtwit&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=wordtwit23:17
Sc0rpiusI should have pasted the source23:17
Sc0rpiushttp://www.maemonokian900.com/nokia-n900-news/nokia-kills-first-meego-phone-windowsandroid-phone-now-certain/23:17
Sc0rpiusso no MeeGo?23:17
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Sc0rpiusI'll stick with Maemo until my grandchildren can use it23:18
LjLwhat's a good PIM suite, ideally with fancy home applets, for OS2008?23:18
lardman|homewhat are these so called sources?23:18
Sc0rpiusyeah well i received the link via twitter and now I realize those "sources" suck23:19
Sc0rpiusbut anyway everybody knew this was gonna happen23:19
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Dhraakellianit's been all around the (micro)blogosphere for the past few days23:20
Sc0rpiusit seems they are gonna prefer Windows Mobile before Android23:20
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Sc0rpiusI would too.23:20
Dhraakellianmy personal (biased?) opinion is that it'd be even more stupid than FOX cancelling Firefly23:20
Sc0rpiusor Activision cancelling Guitar Hero :(23:21
DhraakellianI don't want an android phone23:21
FireFlyHeh23:21
Dhraakelliannot quite so much as I don't want a WP7 phone23:21
ieatlintor nbc cancelling star trek?23:21
FireFlyThe TV show kind of highlights usually doesn't occur in here...23:21
FireFlynick highlights, that is23:21
Sc0rpiusI don't want an Android phone either, Android is very pretty, the fonts, animations, it's beautiful, but it sucks that you run out of battery in like 4 hours23:21
DhraakellianFireFly: You can't take the Source from me23:21
pupniki think fox cancelled it because it was too 'rebel' oriented23:21
Sc0rpiusand the same issue with everybody: no real multitasking23:22
Dhraakellianmeh.23:22
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Dhraakellianthe main reason I don't want an Android phone is that I want at least one major mode of communication that isn't tied to Google in the slightest23:22
ieatlintSc0rpius: i find it funny you're in #maemo and crticising the battery life of other devices23:22
Sc0rpiushey, I get at least 2 days with my N90023:22
jacekowskiwell, n900 isn't as bad as some other devices23:22
Sc0rpiuswith 3G/Wifi use23:22
DhraakellianI already have email and IM through them. I'd rather not have my phone with them23:22
ieatlinti get 8-12h, depending on my use23:23
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Sc0rpiustry a Motorola Droid to see how much you can get23:23
Dhraakellian(and, no, my ham radio doesn't count)23:23
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ieatlinti know the nexus s gets similar life, maybe better23:23
* lardman|home wonders why "Programming Massively Parallel Processors" doesn't bother to mention texture memory23:23
ieatlintmy old g1 got similar too23:23
DhraakellianI still just charge every night, need it or not23:23
Sc0rpiusthat's wise23:23
Dhraakelliansince I probably would need it the next day if I didn't23:23
Sc0rpiusyou'll never know what could happen tomorrow23:23
wmaronelardman|home: is it GPU targeted, or massive, multi-CPU?23:23
Dhraakellianyarr23:24
Dhraakellianand LiIon batteries don't mind partial discharg23:24
Dhraakelliane23:24
lardman|homewmarone: GPU targetted, and mainly CUDA at that23:24
wmaroneweird23:24
lardman|homeyeah23:24
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lardman|homeperhaps it was based on an earlier version before texture memory was accessible?23:24
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wmaronewas there a version of CUDA that didn't give access to the texture memory?23:25
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wmaronelack of access would seem wasteful23:25
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lardman|homeno idea23:25
derfTexture memory has always been accessible.23:25
lardman|homehmm, odd that that book doesn't mention it then23:26
derfIt's no different from regular memory. The only thing that changes is how you access it.23:26
lardman|homeok, so it;s just constant memory?23:26
derfNo, not at all.23:26
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lardman|home"constant memory"?23:27
ieatlintheh, if nokia really is axing meego, we can expect to see a LOT of layoffs on the horizon23:27
ieatlintnot just nokia too..23:27
lardman|homein the CUDA lino23:27
lardman|homelinguo23:27
derflardman|home: I know what constant memory is, and it's not that.23:27
lardman|homeok23:27
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derfYou can only read it through the shader units, and you can't write to it directly. But you can copy the contents of a linear array into it.23:28
derf(the reason being that it's not laid out linearly in memory, and exactly _how_ it's laid out was supposed to be this big proprietary secret they didn't want to expose)23:28
* lardman|home is more abstracted than that23:29
derfWell, these details show up in the CUDA API.23:29
lardman|homedidn't know you could write it to from the device though23:29
lardman|homebut I'm only half way through the CUDA by example book, which does mention texture memory23:30
derfIt's actually really damn annoying. Algorithms which are fast in OpenGL can't be implemented in CUDA in the same way, because you can't write to textures directly.23:30
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derfI mean, I can understand not supporting scattered writes for textures, but they don't support direct writes at all.23:30
derfJust copying of whole arrays.23:31
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lardman|homeyet one can do that in OpenGL?23:32
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MohammadAGcrashanddie, just finished black ops, lmfao @ final scene after credits23:33
* lardman|home kind of lost the will in black ops after a couple of levels23:34
Venemohey MohammadAG :)23:34
MohammadAGhey Venemo23:34
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LjLwhat should i do to make OS2008's player support Ogg Vorbis? i've installed 'ogg-support', but my files still aren't showing up in the library...23:34
MohammadAGlardman|home, story's ending's good23:34
lardman|homeMohammadAG: It chopped and changed too much for my liking, but I'm sure I'll get bored enough one day to finish it23:36
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MohammadAGlardman|home, thought as much at first, but I like to finish all games I get23:36
derflardman|home: In a limited fashion. E.g., you can run a fragment shader "for all texels", and the return value from each instance gets written to that texel.23:36
lardman|homederf: interesting23:37
derfYou can also do multi-texture outputs, where you return several values, and each one gets written to a different texture.23:37
lardman|homeMohammadAG: yeah but the ~£25 i pay for a game doens't commit me to do something that I don't find fun23:37
lardman|homederf: I'm doing heat simulation, so no need for that :)23:38
derfWhat you can't do is have a single program write more than one value to the _same_ texture, or figure out where you're going to write to after you run the program.23:38
derfRight, for heat simulation you shouldn't have to get to fancy.23:39
derf*too23:39
lardman|homeah, well is that a limitation caused by thread consistency, or whatever it would be called?23:39
lardman|hometo avoid writing more than one value to the same location?23:39
derfWell, worse than that.23:39
derfTexture memory is organized into 2D blocks, and loaded into and out of cache in those blocks.23:40
derfOn NVIDIA cards these are 8x8 (this is one of their big proprietary secrets).23:40
derfSo if you want to write to a pixel, you have to load the whole 8x8 block in, update the pixel, and then flush it out (this is what the hardware does... this doesn't show up in the API anywhere).23:40
derfThat is, that's what you _would_ do if scattered writes were supported.23:41
lardman|homebut you can't really support scattered writes from a kernel can you anyway?23:41
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derfWhat it actually does is runs the 64 instances of your program for the 8x8 block, collects all the return values in cache, and replaces the whole block in main memory at once.23:41
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derflardman|home: For ordinary global memory, yes you can.23:42
derfYou can write wherever you want.23:42
lardman|homemutexes?23:42
derfWell, you have to make sure they don't conflict.23:42
derfI.e., you could make a program that only updated the even pixels.23:42
derfThere's a limited set of atomic primitives.23:43
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derfYou can synchronize threads within a single warp, but that's about.23:43
skrullisDocScrutinizer: I followed the initrd rescue guide you sent a link about. the rescue mode commands seem to work but I don't see anything on the display. Have you had this problem?23:43
derf*about it.23:43
lardman|homeso they've simly assumed you won;t want to do that then23:43
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derfWell, you won't.23:44
lardman|homewarp or is it a block?23:44
lardman|homethe latter I think23:44
DocScrutinizerskrullis: I never used that23:44
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lardman|homewarp is memory access stuff iirc23:44
derfThis _is_ memory access stuff.23:44
skrullisDocScrutinizer: ok..23:44
derfBut I don't actually know on current cards.23:44
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derfLook it up. Don't trust me.23:44
derfAnyway, the truth is, you _won't_ want to do that.23:45
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derfBecause accessing individual memory locations is terribly slow.23:45
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derfLike 400-600 cycles for a read from global memory.23:45
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lardman|homeno, I meant a warp is 16 threads, a block is 32? and it's per-block synchronisation isn't it?23:46
derfIf things are aligned properly, and you make all the threads in a warp access _consecutive_ memory locations, they can all do the access at once.23:46
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lardman|homeyes, that book stresses that, which is good23:46
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derfSo: writing to 8 even pixels == 8 memory accesses.23:47
lardman|homegoes into quite a bit of detail of trading off threads with registers vs memory vs #SMs, etc., etc23:47
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derfReading in 16 pixles, updating the even ones, and writing 16 back out: 2 memory accesses.23:47
derf(reads and writes aren't equal, but let's pretend for the moment)23:48
lardman|homethere's a 2nd pass tpop though assuming you use an if{} in there23:48
lardman|homes/tpop/too23:48
derfNot sure what you mean by that.23:49
lardman|homeapparently the kernel must be run N times per warp depending on the number of paths in the code23:50
derfNot really.23:50
derfHow would it know, in advance?23:50
derfWhat actually happens is it runs all the paths on all the threads.23:51
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derfBut the ones not actually "on" that path don't write back the results of whatever the operation was.23:51
derfI.e., if you have an if(){...} else{...}, everyone will run the if, then everyone will run the else.23:52
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derfBut the ones that are supposed to go in the else branch will convert everything to nops while the if is being run.23:52
derfAnd vice-versa while the else is being run.23:53
derfAnd if everyone takes the _same_ branch, then it doesn't have to run the other one at all.23:53
lardman|homesure, but you still get a 2 run penalty23:53
derfWell, if you just have an if(){...}, then it still only gets run once.23:53
lardman|homeyeah, so that depends how you structure your code so that singe warps can take the same path23:53
derfBut, e.g., if it's an if(even pixel), then half the threads do something, and the other half sit idle.23:54
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lardman|homeyes, apologies, I should have added an else (if)23:54
lardman|homeyeah ok23:54
lardman|homelooks quite interesting working out the trade offs to get stuff working as quickly as possible23:55
lardman|homeotoh, not sure how easy it is to write code that will scale to newer processors, which is part of the goal of CUDA23:56
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lardman|homescale -> scale to generate code that is optimum for the # of register memories, constant memory, etc., etc23:56
derfYeah, that is sort of why I gave up on it.23:57
derfIt's "neat", but the original CUDA is a toy.23:57
lardman|homewell assuming it will work for my simulations then "neat" is good enough :)23:58
derfYou can make one-off things that run with it, but stuff like "constant memory gets reserved for the life of the application" are _terrible_ from a real software engineering perspective.23:58
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derfYeah. If you just care about the output, and aren't actually shipping this to anyone in a product, then it works.23:59
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derfAs I said, "one-off" things.23:59
lardman|homeyeah, reading about the multiple constraints and variable speedups sounds like a bugger to optimise properly23:59
lardman|homeack23:59

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