IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2011-02-03

javispedro	might be.... ie it might intercept call to true and run a builtin?	00:00
anidel	unless our sysadmins agree :)	00:00
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DocScrutinizer	or wait, probably bash is using internal true, even when you ask for /bin/true	00:00
anidel	javispedro, probably.. how ` is called? ' is a quote, " is a double-quote and ` ?	00:00
javispedro	backtick	00:00
anidel	DocScrutinizer, thought about that as well..	00:00
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anidel	should be weird.. /bin/true is one thing.. .true is another	00:00
javispedro	yeah, it would be news if it was builtin-ing a call to /bin/true..	00:01
anidel	if I specify a path, it's because I want to be sure you run whatever is on the FS	00:01
DocScrutinizer	whatever, I'm sure your condept has worse problems than that	00:01
DocScrutinizer	never heard you need to trap SIGCHLD to get kbd input	00:01
* javispedro goes watch some TV for a change		00:01
Sc0rpius	I still don't get it why can't you choose your own shell, even if you're not root	00:01
anidel	DocScrutinizer, well it was just to get all "weird" signals, 1, 3, 15, 16, 17	00:01
Sc0rpius	if you can edit the script, you can use whatever you want	00:01
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anidel	Sc0rpius, I can, but this is work related.. some constraints on the way we do things in here... we can , but we should branch off the script we're using	00:02
anidel	and in our team we don't want that.. so.. was trying to understand what's the real issue here	00:02
anidel	that's why I asked for a bash guru :)	00:03
DocScrutinizer	whatever, SIGCHLD gets sent from child to parent process when child quits. child may be any arbitrary process started by parent	00:03
anidel	yep, that's why I think BASH is doing something particular with `/bin/true`	00:04
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DocScrutinizer	that's why I think SIGCHLD is not the correct signal for any usecase faintly resembling yours	00:04
Sc0rpius	can I install a previous version of any software using apt-get ?	00:05
Sc0rpius	and not the latest one?	00:05
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Venemo	Sc0rpius: if the previous one is still present in the repo then yes	00:05
anidel	DocScrutinizer, we are also wondering that.. and we'll think about it... let's assume we need it.	00:05
Venemo	Sc0rpius: 'apt-get install thepackage=version'	00:05
anidel	it's now a curiosity..	00:05
Sc0rpius	and how can I browse versions available in the repo using apt-cache?	00:05
Venemo	Sc0rpius: that I don't know.	00:06
Venemo	Sc0rpius: you can use the maemo.org package interface though	00:06
DocScrutinizer	when you need it, you must be happy with the way it works. Where's the problem then?	00:06
anidel	it works differently in bash and dash .. I wanted to understand why	00:06
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DocScrutinizer	well, read the source of bash and dash and you'll know for sure	00:07
anidel	:D	00:07
anidel	thanks :p	00:07
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Sc0rpius	apt-cache showpkg <package>	00:07
DocScrutinizer	bash might implement monitoring of childs by its own	00:07
DocScrutinizer	dash might not	00:08
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anidel	it might...	00:08
Sc0rpius	thank you Venemo it worked	00:08
DocScrutinizer	SIGCHLD isn't usually meant to be used in trap	00:08
anidel	why not? if I want to monitor my childs why shouldn't I use it in trap?	00:09
DocScrutinizer	it's simply not explicitly masked out as there's nothing bad happening if you use a trap on SIGCHLD	00:09
DocScrutinizer	because there are better ways to monitor subshells. And monitoring child processes is a meaningless effort	00:10
anidel	you can't possibly now all the cases one need to do something	00:11
anidel	I might agree on this very specific case	00:11
anidel	but I wouldn't rule it out a priori for all the cases out there	00:11
DocScrutinizer	anidel: bash: help wait	00:11
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DocScrutinizer	it's completely academic	00:12
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anidel	indeed	00:12
DocScrutinizer	no purpose to learn about it, in RL	00:12
anidel	no I know what you mean	00:13
anidel	but in this case I am , as said, under constraints.. I didn't write the script, but I need to use it as is.. on the client machine sh -> bash and there's fine... on our test boxes sh -> dash and it doesn't even enter the loop.	00:13
anidel	Understanding what exactly is different, helps and it's also academic	00:14
anidel	no matter what one thinks about how things are done	00:14
DocScrutinizer	meh, find a way to make nonsense behave nonsensical on all shells then. Not my problem	00:15
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Sc0rpius	I'd still change the first line of the script and that's it	00:15
anidel	oh come on...this was just a question of why the two shells behave differently, if you don't care then yeah it's not your problem...	00:15
Sc0rpius	n need to be rude but come on	00:16
Sc0rpius	now that's a STUPID question	00:16
Sc0rpius	dash is a TOTAL different shell	00:16
Sc0rpius	,like csh, ash, ksh	00:16
Sc0rpius	TOTALLY differents	00:16
Sc0rpius	you should NEVER expect to behave them identically	00:16
Sc0rpius	if you program for bash YOU HAVE TO USE BASH	00:16
corecode	hi	00:16
Sc0rpius	then go out and learn dash and program for that	00:16
corecode	anybody know how i can tell fmms to scale the images it displays?	00:17
anidel	Things are goind wrong here :)	00:17
anidel	going..	00:17
anidel	if you write a script that could work on different shells	00:17
anidel	wouldn't you learn these differences?	00:17
anidel	I would.. and that's what I am trying to do here.	00:17
DocScrutinizer	this usecase is so bizzare not even bash manual writers bothered to explain it	00:17
DocScrutinizer	so why should you?	00:17
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anidel	I'm not offending.. you guys are pusshing in different directions and don't get that I just asked what could be different in invoking `/bin/true` in dash and bash.	00:18
corecode	anidel: what are you trying to do?	00:18
Sc0rpius	it's hard to write a script that works on different shells, that's why they invented, decades ago, the #! command in the first line.	00:18
DocScrutinizer	it's a completely useless command sequence, and when it works different in another shell, so be it	00:18
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anidel	I KNOW it's HARD.. that's why I went here , thought it would be something nice that would help understand a behaviour	00:19
DocScrutinizer	bash uses builtins frequently	00:19
corecode	so what is this about?	00:19
anidel	corecode, nothing fancy.. I have a trap that traps SIGCHLD and a while loop on `/bin/true`. The trap callback is called in dash when true exits, while in bash it is not. Trying to understand why	00:19
DocScrutinizer	also bash has quite sophisticated subprocess management	00:19
DocScrutinizer	see `help coproc`	00:20
anidel	I know perfectly, when bash was born I was there.	00:20
DocScrutinizer	dash prolly hasn't	00:20
DocScrutinizer	and doesn't	00:20
DocScrutinizer	and that's why	00:20
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corecode	anidel: are you calling "true" or "/bin/true" or "command true"?	00:21
anidel	/bin/true	00:21
corecode	and bash replaces it with a builtin?	00:21
Sc0rpius	well if you read the mans	00:21
Sc0rpius	you can see that dash and bash implement command substitution differently	00:21
Sc0rpius	that is using `command`	00:21
Sc0rpius	in bash, it escapes to the current shell, execute the command	00:22
Sc0rpius	in dash (from the man): The shell expands the command substitution by executing command in a subshell environment	00:22
Sc0rpius	so when the subshell exits, you're fucked	00:22
Sc0rpius	in bash, it's the same shell all the time	00:22
corecode	fwiw, my linux bash will run the binary	00:22
DocScrutinizer	what I said	00:22
Sc0rpius	because SIGCHLD... what DocScrutinizer said, it's for ANY child process	00:23
Sc0rpius	not the one you want	00:23
anidel	Sc0rpius, THAT is what I was looking into the MAN ... which section is that?	00:23
anidel	I know about CHLD	00:23
Sc0rpius	"Command substitution" look it up in both mans (bash & dash)	00:23
Sc0rpius	in bash equals to escape to current shell	00:23
Sc0rpius	in dash equals to fork to a subshell	00:24
corecode	anidel: my bash will call the trap	00:24
corecode	well, does	00:24
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corecode	only if i use /bin/true tho	00:24
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anidel	http://www.gnu.org/software/bash/manual/bashref.html#Command-Substitution ?	00:25
DocScrutinizer	alias /bin/true true	00:25
DocScrutinizer	MEH	00:25
Sc0rpius	now compare that to dash	00:26
DocScrutinizer	who would EVER EVER EVER care about when a shell receives a SIGCHLD? o.O	00:26
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corecode	DocScrutinizer: i do	00:26
anidel	wait.. here it just says that it executes COMMAND and substitutes it.. doesn't say how it executes it	00:27
corecode	DocScrutinizer: i have scripts that use it	00:27
DocScrutinizer	now THAT script sure has to be interesting	00:27
corecode	i don't know what you are arguing about	00:27
javispedro	and you have read about the wait statement? ;)	00:27
corecode	yes, i use that too	00:27
corecode	and job control	00:27
corecode	DocScrutinizer: just because you can't think of a use doesn't mean that there are infinite very reasonable uses of that	00:28
Sc0rpius	you know what I would do?	00:28
Sc0rpius	instead of $COMMAND &	00:29
Sc0rpius	I would write a wrapper	00:29
Sc0rpius	a .sh that runs $COMMAND (without the &) and then send a trap when it's finished	00:29
DocScrutinizer	I tend to use my wetware cycles better than trying to figure differneces between shells for usecases that might be imaginable but I never ever will run into them	00:29
corecode	anidel: so why doesn't it trap?	00:30
corecode	DocScrutinizer: yea, you rather rant about it on irc	00:30
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kerio	buuuuuuurn	00:30
anidel	so let say: ASSUMING you are FOR WHATEVER reason FORCED (or die) to use trap 17 (or trap CHLD)...and you run into this issue, WOULD you go and look at the difference between dash and bash? I would and went here to ask as I couldn't find it. After complaining about SOMETHING else, you guys finally gave me the answer "Command Subistitution". Thanks :)	00:30
DocScrutinizer	I suggested that before, Sc0rpius	00:30
corecode	anidel: i would try it on both to make sure it works	00:30
DocScrutinizer	SIGUSR1	00:30
corecode	but i'm sure it will	00:31
corecode	because this is basics	00:31
anidel	corecode, I am not sure yet.. even if bash doesn't create a subshell it should still have a child to run /bin/true I guess it won't trap SIGCHLD	00:31
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corecode	anidel: i keep telling you, my bash traps SIGCHLD when i run /bin/true	00:31
Sc0rpius	well I haven't tried that	00:31
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corecode	you can also just force a child	00:32
corecode	by using ()	00:32
corecode	(true) will send a sigchld as well	00:32
DocScrutinizer	let's say I have an icepick and a bag of feathers, and I MUST smoke a pipe using those... what would I do..................	00:32
anidel	corecode, u tested like this: trap 17 then while `/bin/true` ; do sleep 1000; done	00:32
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anidel	sorry	00:32
corecode	anidel: no, i test it like this:	00:32
anidel	function bail_out () { echo bailed; exit} then trap bail_out 17	00:33
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DocScrutinizer	bye folks, that's getting too weird here	00:33
Sc0rpius	heh	00:33
anidel	DocScrutinizer, yes because you guys insisted in forcing your own opinions	00:33
corecode	trap 'echo o hi' SIGCHLD	00:34
anidel	and don't listen.. I said I AM FORCED to do that.	00:34
DocScrutinizer	no, because you insist in using a hammer to cook a chicken	00:34
corecode	/bin/true	00:34
anidel	I AM FORCED	00:34
corecode	prints "o hi"	00:34
Sc0rpius	first time I heard somebody is forced to use a specific shell	00:34
Proteous	Mmm, hammer cooked chicken	00:34
Sc0rpius	at work	00:34
anidel	ah.. come on now :)	00:34
DocScrutinizer	BS, I'll force you to walk on water	00:34
anidel	I explained before	00:34
corecode	anidel: i don't think these folks here are useful	00:34
anidel	amazing :)	00:35
corecode	anidel: tell me which other # you're in and i can chat with you there	00:35
DocScrutinizer	go to your boss and ask how to do it	00:35
anidel	it's so simple...	00:35
corecode	anidel: or do you prefer convincing the internet that they are wrong?	00:35
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DocScrutinizer	"boss, I MUST walk on water, I'm FORCED to do it. Why doesn't it work when it's above 0°C?"	00:35
anidel	this is a old script that we are using EVERYWHERE and don't want to change unless we need to.. is it so difficult to undestand that? :)	00:35
corecode	i see	00:35
anidel	ok.. anyway time to go home.. corecode thanks for your support	00:35
corecode	it works here, that's all i can say	00:36
Proteous	corecode gives it the "works on my machine" seal of approval	00:36
anidel	wait I'll paste you in pastebin corecode	00:36
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: "you don't have enough SYNERGY!!" <runs away>	00:36
anidel	corecode, http://pastebin.com/j1E4ieX5	00:37
anidel	works?	00:37
Proteous	yeah, if only you moved this to the cloud you'd be fine	00:37
corecode	that's /bin/sh	00:37
corecode	not bash	00:37
corecode	why are you using backticks?	00:38
anidel	DocScrutinizer, Sc0rpius I understand your point but it's like saying "don't use Linux then and use Windows"	00:38
anidel	if you don't get a reason behind something, just accept it... that was it	00:38
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: I'm just getting angry when somebody comes with a borked to the bones concept and wants help to put it to work, rather than fix the BS in foundation	00:38
anidel	corecode, I'm not.. that's the script :)	00:38
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anidel	anyway.. running ttyl	00:38
Sc0rpius	well I always say to everybody to use Windows.	00:39
Sc0rpius	less headaches	00:39
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corecode	anidel: you need set -m	00:39
corecode	anidel: you need to switch on job control to get the traps	00:40
DocScrutinizer	anidel: if you'd ask me how to make foobar-shooter-win7 work, then yes, you'd get exactly that answer	00:40
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DocScrutinizer	"use windows for a wndows game"	00:41
corecode	DocScrutinizer: nothing is broken. works within the specifications	00:41
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corecode	DocScrutinizer: shell can trap. shell can trap! shell can trap.	00:41
DocScrutinizer	I see, that's why he came here	00:41
Sc0rpius	IT'S A TRAP	00:41
DocScrutinizer	it's a troll	00:41
corecode	well, i came here to wonder how i can zoom in on a mms image	00:41
corecode	and also how to get the animation shown	00:42
javispedro	corecode: it was clearly a trap then	00:42
Sc0rpius	save it and preview it with another software?	00:42
corecode	Sc0rpius: you have an idea which software to use?	00:42
Sc0rpius	well, no	00:42
corecode	oh wow. gtk can't show animated gifs by default	00:43
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DocScrutinizer	in my old flat I found stomping on the floor opened the door of the living room. I'm aware that's not supposed to work anywhere, but now we moved to a new flat and my boss err wife got used to it. So how would I make the door in new flat behave?	00:45
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corecode	plonk	00:46
Venemo	alterego: what was the command to install something on MADDE sysroot?	00:46
corecode	is it okay to set a password for user or will that break the system?	00:48
DocScrutinizer	btw while true; do $COMMAD&; done # o.O isn't that the genuine forkbomb? WTF??	00:49
corecode	that is, yes	00:49
corecode	not bomb	00:49
corecode	but close	00:49
DocScrutinizer	depends on content of $COMMAD :-P	00:50
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DocScrutinizer	COMMAD=$0; #forkbomd armed	00:50
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DocScrutinizer	and no trap on SIGCHLD will get that moster back into the bottle	00:53
DocScrutinizer	the boss really must hate anidel	00:55
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DocScrutinizer	corecode: I set a password for root	00:57
DocScrutinizer	corecode: dunno about user	00:58
DocScrutinizer	aah no, actually I have set the password for user as well, but it's mostly useless (except for ssh)	00:59
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DocScrutinizer	so yes, you can set user password	00:59
corecode	ok	00:59
corecode	yes, i ment to ssh in	00:59
corecode	to hack on fmms	00:59
DocScrutinizer	and you can fix sudoers.conf to put root password to purpose	00:59
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DocScrutinizer	s/.conf//	01:00
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: and you can fix sudoers to put root password to purpose	01:00
DocScrutinizer	s/.conf/.d*/	01:01
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: and you can fix sudoers.d* to put root password to purpose	01:01
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Sargun	Is there an easy way to sync my maemo contacts with my online contacts?	01:03
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Sargun	s/online/outlook	01:04
Proteous	from an exchange server?	01:04
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Sargun	to would be better	01:05
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Sargun	I imported a bunch on contacts in using some nifty little python script	01:05
Venemo	alterego: hey	01:05
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Proteous	with the built in email client you can sync your contacts with exchange but I don't know if it will use existing contacts on your phone. I didn't use that feature	01:06
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Proteous	to be more clear, I don't know if it will sync existing contacts on your phone up to the exchange server	01:07
Sargun	I had it sync down my gmail contacts, but now I'd like to add all (new) contacts to outlook	01:07
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DocScrutinizer	if nothing else helps, exporting the contacts to a vcf file might	01:14
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corecode	how large is the user section of the display?	01:38
corecode	can i find that somehow with gtk?	01:38
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woki	hi guys, my connection to my n900 keeps timing out from shell and qtcreator	02:22
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woki	even with mad developer running	02:22
woki	any ideas why?	02:23
DocScrutinizer	who's wiki admin? SPAM ALERT! http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Talk:USB_host_mode&diff=next&oldid=36035	02:27
lardman	night chaps	02:28
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jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: how do you know it's spam	02:37
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: do you speak russian?	02:37
DocScrutinizer	I can tell from the formatting easily	02:38
DocScrutinizer	also from the URLs	02:38
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DocScrutinizer	I really doubt the point of enabling anonymous (unregistered) wiki edits	02:42
woki	when i deploy an app i'm developing on my n900, where is the executable copied?	02:44
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DocScrutinizer	please rephrase	02:44
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woki	to see if i was doing right ( following the meego examples ) i deployed the qt examples to my n900	02:45
woki	using the "release" mode in qtcreator	02:45
woki	so what i want to know is "where does qtcreator copy the executable of my app to my n900 to be able to execute it"?	02:46
woki	did you understand my question?	02:48
DocScrutinizer	yes	02:48
* DocScrutinizer suggests "find"		02:48
Sc0rpius	you just wanna know where the executable file is?	02:48
woki	and what files it deploys to the device to make the app run	02:50
woki	so i can clean it up when i've finished developing	02:50
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Sc0rpius	I thought it built a .deb package	02:50
Sc0rpius	so you could easily uninstall it	02:51
DocScrutinizer	find / -mmin 90	02:52
DocScrutinizer	find / -mmin 90 -ls	02:52
DocScrutinizer	or 5 instead of 90, if you're 'fast' ;-)	02:53
DocScrutinizer	maybe even -cmin	02:54
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woki	don't know what debian does. I use another distro	02:55
Sc0rpius	heh :) .deb packages are what N900 use	02:56
woki	??? packaging error?	02:56
woki	what the?...	02:57
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woki	anyone ever get this error?	03:06
woki	http://pastebin.com/yB84VQ69	03:06
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* corecode nods		03:13
corecode	now fmms will show animated gifs	03:13
corecode	and zoom them	03:13
corecode	how do you find which gettext strings exist for maemo?	03:18
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blackthorne	hi	04:58
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ebzzry	If I want my bluetooth keyboard to work with N900, what should I read?	05:00
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tank-man	ebzzry, what is there to read? just sync it	05:05
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ebzzry	tank-man: it pairs easily?	05:06
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tank-man	i have a n800 and it was easy to do	05:06
ebzzry	tank-man: As easy as 1) Turn on BT on N900, 2) Pair with keyboard?	05:06
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tank-man	easy as goto control panel and pick bluetooh and add device then use it	05:07
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tank-man	so easy to do, you wouldn't know you were using a linux system :)	05:08
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ShadowJK	i dont think that works on n900 anymore	05:12
ShadowJK	it did work on n800 though	05:12
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ShadowJK	or maybe that was just su-8w that didn't work anymore	05:14
* ShadowJK shrugs		05:14
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ebzzry	tank-man: Are these applicable for the N900?	05:15
tank-man	if it was working in n800, why would nokia change the way it works and break it in n900?	05:16
tank-man	i used a apple bt keyboard	05:16
ebzzry	tank-man: You can't make that kind of generalization, I'm afraid.	05:17
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tank-man	does nokia have a history of breaking things ?	05:19
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ebzzry	(Not to be rude, tankman) But either you're trolling or you are ignorant, I'd assume the former.	05:21
ShadowJK	short answer: pressed on time the device specs were removed of things deemed unnecessary like bluetooth file browsing (because apparently when n900 is both phone and tablet you dont have phone to browse anymore) and bt keyb (since you have builtin keyb) and bluetooth outgoing interwebs (since n900 has cellular internets builtin)	05:22
ShadowJK	and those untested things were disabled in the configuration files	05:22
ShadowJK	i think there are issues with keyboard layouts if you just enable the bt keyboard functionality, there's most likely a thread on t.m.o., I remember seeing one...	05:26
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ShadowJK	don't remember the thread topic/name though	05:26
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[q^_^p]	hi for all i want some i can not connect my bt mouse to phone some help please	05:46
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jonwil	bah, its been almost a week since I dropped my N900 off at Nokia Care and its still not back (they claim they are waiting for a replacement and its not here yet :( )	07:44
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ShadowJK	I think I'm on week 2 or 3	07:45
ShadowJK	I forget	07:45
jonwil	and I thought Nokia was the best in the industry when it came to repairs and warranty	07:46
ShadowJK	lol :)	07:46
jonwil	My previous Motorola phone was fixed fairly quickly in both times it was broken (once at the official Motorola warranty place)	07:48
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jonwil	I guess it depends on where the replacement phone is comming from as to how long it should take to get there	08:35
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DocScrutinizer	low absolute number of N900 sold (compared to popular phones of Nokia) causes repair facilities being a sparse resource. Then the "complex" OS aka firmware is likely to cause a huge number of false positives, so they won't hand out replacements easily, and retail shows don't have competence to "fix" soft errors	09:22
DocScrutinizer	and mooo	09:22
DocScrutinizer	s/shows/shops/.	09:24
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johnx	m00f	09:24
DocScrutinizer	German repair shops all have a "usually 2 weeks, sometimes longer" policy for N900 repairs	09:25
DocScrutinizer	they all send in almost every N900 - i.e. if it's not fixable by any semi-talented tech user as well	09:26
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DocScrutinizer	the special tools (fixtures, jigs, tools, spare parts) needed for N900 are simply too expensive for the half a dozen N900 they might see coming in for repair during a year	09:28
DocScrutinizer	(the bane of too many service centers :-P)	09:30
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RobbieThe1st	While I might agree with you, I have to say that if -I- can fix one with the tools I have lying around :\	09:30
johnx	RobbieThe1st, then you're worth more per year than a service tech earns	09:31
DocScrutinizer	sure, but then you got "infinite" time resources and surely better knowledge about the device, than a nokia care center	09:32
RobbieThe1st	I suppose. Yea, 2 hours might be considered high.	09:32
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DocScrutinizer	when I asked about my power button they fscked up at Nokia repair facility, the shop told me they either need to send in again as it's been Nokia that broke it. OR they can repair "ambulant" but that will cost me ~40EUR	09:34
johnx	the problem is invariably that after someone passes a certain skill level, their time is better spent doing something else than working in a repair center	09:35
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DocScrutinizer	now that's been about a very simple SMD switch that either got loose and needs 30s with the hot iron, or needs a complete replacement of switch (10min) or even a swap of whole PCB (send in to Nokia anyway)	09:37
DocScrutinizer	but incl all the dis- and re-assembling and bureaucratic shit they are easily hitting the 1h mark	09:39
DocScrutinizer	and it's unclear how much Nokia is willing to pay them for an ambulant fix - probably nothing at all in this case	09:40
RobbieThe1st	Well, I guess that's why you keep a soldering iron yourself - makes things a -lot- faster when things break	09:40
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DocScrutinizer	that's an option I keep for the time when the switch breaks completely :-)	09:41
DocScrutinizer	I'm too scared by the one device that ceased working after I disassembled it (and I'm for sure no less skilled than any arbitrary repair shop dude, so that's another problem they have to count in and deal with)	09:43
johnx	yeah, taking these things apart is always a roll of the dice	09:44
DocScrutinizer	"sorry dead customer, when we disassembled it, the self destruct got trigered. Too bad..." - usually won't fly	09:44
DocScrutinizer	dear* :-P	09:44
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johnx	dead is because that's how long it takes to come back with the news ...	09:45
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DocScrutinizer	yeah :-D	09:45
johnx	dearest next of kin: ...	09:45
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DocScrutinizer	no wonder, with these news I'd be reluctant as well :-P	09:46
DocScrutinizer	plan: wait til summer holiday. Instruct trainee to call customer during my offtime and tell him the device magically disappeared	09:47
DocScrutinizer	then order a new N900 "for display", send to customer, and shredder the documents about the whole case	09:49
* johnx has a 'display' n800 :)		09:50
DocScrutinizer	blame shop lifters	09:50
johnx	eh? No, I mean I bought the floor demo unit	09:50
DocScrutinizer	And I completed the repair shop employee's plan by point 3	09:51
johnx	the store was going out of business and I convinced them to give me the demo unit, just a bare N800 and charger	09:51
johnx	ah	09:51
johnx	got it	09:51
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DocScrutinizer	I'm actually wondering where to get vmware for maemo	09:54
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DocScrutinizer	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNo6pn-dnSQ	09:54
johnx	Was there even a beta or anything? I thought it was just a vaporous demo	09:55
DocScrutinizer	not like I've really searched a single minute yet	09:55
jonwil	well in my case they said first thing monday morning "device being looked at by Nokia technician" followed soon after by "waiting for replacement Nokia handset"	09:56
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jonwil	so its clear that they looked at it and then decided straight away that it was better to replace the phone than to attempt a repair	09:56
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jonwil	The only question is where the replacement phone has to come from (e.g. eastern states, Asia, Europe) and how long its going to take to get here from there :(	09:57
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johnx	next door, and 3 weeks	09:58
jonwil	Given the likely small # of N900s in Perth, I doubt Nokia Care would have one locally	09:59
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jonwil	My guess is that its either comming from some central warehouse in Sydney or Melbourne	09:59
jonwil	or its comming from somewhere in Asia where the phones get made and packaged	09:59
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DocScrutinizer	Nokia most likely has one "service and repair facility" (probably 3 employees) for whole aussiland	10:10
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DocScrutinizer	depending on holiday schedules, floods, and random nature of # of repair requests/week, this may get processed same day or the other month	10:12
jonwil	nope, they definatly have a local repair center	10:13
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jonwil	They definatly have a "nokia care" facility in Perth	10:13
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jonwil	that does actual repairs	10:13
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DocScrutinizer	what's "local"? like "on southern hemisphere"? then yes	10:13
jonwil	Local as in ~1-1.5 hours away	10:14
jonwil	I saw it first hand when I dropped my phone off	10:14
DocScrutinizer	well, that's not contradicting my assumptions it's the only one in Perth	10:14
jonwil	and it was clear that it was an actual repair center	10:14
jonwil	and yes its the only one in Perth	10:14
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DocScrutinizer	Perth is the only one, sorry	10:15
jonwil	nope, they have others in other states	10:15
jonwil	I have seen the Brisbane one from the outside	10:15
DocScrutinizer	amazing	10:15
jonwil	or was that the Melbourne one	10:15
jonwil	I forget	10:15
DocScrutinizer	so they have 3 centers with one employee rather than one with 3 of them?	10:15
jonwil	in any case given how fast they took to make the "replace rather than repair" decision, the number of repair people they have doesn't matter in this case	10:16
jonwil	They had at least 3 employees sitting there front-of-house dealing with customers. Plus several technicians that I saw in the back room through the open door	10:16
DocScrutinizer	that decision was a statement of the shop where you sent in the device. It only means "we can't do anything as it's more complicated than batery swap. We send it in"	10:17
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DocScrutinizer	jonwil: I guess you still know IMEI and ser# of your original device. Compare that to the 'swapped' 'new' one you get	10:19
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jonwil	My bet is that because no local carrier sells the N900 and there are so few around, they probably dont have the spares on hand/know-how that they would have for a really popular handset like the N95	10:19
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: iirc your device had that FPC problem. They will swap the flexible board, at central nokia repair facility	10:20
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: exactly	10:20
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DocScrutinizer	neither know how, nor spare parts, nor tools	10:21
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DocScrutinizer	I got NFC as I never been in resales/CustomerCare business, but I guess all hw-manufacturers have a deal with their resellers about repair procedures, that goes like this: "repair it locally and get $xx from us, on sending in documentation about customer and fixed parts. Or send it in to our central repair facility"	10:24
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DocScrutinizer	here $xx is rather low	10:25
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jonwil	This isn't a reseller or 3rd party, this is clearly a genuine Nokia owned facility	10:25
DocScrutinizer	and a fixed amount, regardless of what's been defect	10:25
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DocScrutinizer	doesn't matter, same procedure	10:25
jonwil	maybe they do what I have heard of other manufacturers doing, i.e. provide a replacement handset and then take the broken one, fix it up and use it as a refurb for the next guy who needs a warranty replacement	10:26
jonwil	I heard of companies like Apple doing that	10:26
jonwil	maybe Nokia does it	10:26
DocScrutinizer	just level of trust is a little bit higher then, between Nokia global and shoppee local	10:26
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: (refurb) won't happen. Refurbishing to a level where they could ship it is more expensive than a new device	10:27
jonwil	Apple does refurbs of iPhones	10:27
DocScrutinizer	manpower is extremely expensive, mass produced hw is cheap	10:27
jonwil	I know of several people who have received refurb iPhones	10:28
DocScrutinizer	well, apple is special in many respects	10:28
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DocScrutinizer	N900 is on sale for ~300$ now. This means internal value inside Nokia at large is <<100$ for one device. Now guess what they need to calculate for one hour of bench or office time to refurbish a device, and how long that actually might take, to make sure you're not shipping devices that come back for repair later^H^H immediately	10:31
jonwil	hmmm, good point	10:31
jonwil	I still think they would have said "handset being repaired" if that's what was happening (regardless of whether it was happening locally or not)	10:31
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DocScrutinizer	just check your ser+/IMEI later	10:32
DocScrutinizer	we'll all be wiser than	10:32
DocScrutinizer	then*	10:32
jonwil	yeah	10:33
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DocScrutinizer	for my repair they weren't even able to tell me what's been done exactly @ Nokia central repair facility, they just knew "it got fixed"	10:34
jonwil	Oh and btw, my phone cost me $541 total	10:35
jonwil	so it wasnt cheap	10:35
jonwil	Thats AU$ btw	10:35
jonwil	anyhow I will compare the phone to the serial # on my proof of purchase	10:35
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DocScrutinizer	I don't think they take it serious to use the correct term about what Nokia will do, esp if they don't know beforehand	10:36
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jonwil	hmmm ok	10:36
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DocScrutinizer	in your case they probably will do a flexiboard swap (the thing that is cable as well as PCB holding front cam, LED, ALS, earpiece...)	10:38
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DocScrutinizer	http://www.ownta.com/original-nokia-n900-cell-phone-slide-flex-cable-ribbon-with-camera.html <--this one	10:42
johnx	gah. soooo much moves in a couple 'patch' releases of the linux kernel	10:42
* johnx runs a make oldconfig on 2.6.37 using a .config from 2.6.28		10:43
DocScrutinizer	the D shaped brown thingie at end of the dark flat cable is what's usually breaking	10:43
DocScrutinizer	C-shaped?	10:44
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DocScrutinizer	LOL @ http://www.ownta.com/brand-new-nokia-n900-unlocked-cell-phone.html <-- is that a N810-WIMAX? Or why is this one black?	10:57
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inz	Doc, yes, it's a WiMAX	10:58
johnx	orange letters on the keyboard = wimax, IIRC	10:58
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SpeedEvil	The wimax variant is AIUI rarer than n900s.	10:59
RST38h	"John Carmack knows how to invoke the real console, to enter cheats and set sv_gravity 0. But he isn't telling anyone, as he hates cheaters."	10:59
RST38h	"John Carmack once invented the lighting model for games that is better than real sunlight and produces good fps on a PentiumII. But he does not release this engine, becuase he loves God and hates showing His incompetence in the matters of lighting."	11:01
toresbe	hehe	11:01
RST38h	"Most Carmack's games are based on real events that will occur in 2110."	11:02
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jonwil	my god that flexboard thing is more expensive than I thought it would be	11:25
SpeedEvil	It's not covered under warranty?	11:25
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jonwil	it should be	11:26
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jonwil	but the price on that link from earlier suggests that its more expensive for the part than I thought it was	11:26
SpeedEvil	ah	11:27
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RobbieThe1st	jonwil: Check ebay.	11:41
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jonwil	I dont need a replacement part, Nokia is fixing my phone under warranty	11:42
RobbieThe1st	jonwil: I got a LCD screen for <$50US. Took a while to arrive, but still	11:42
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jonwil	I am just surprised at how expensive N900 parts can be	11:42
SpeedEvil	In volume, they're probably cheaper, but you're not buying 100k.	11:43
RST38h	jonwil: Expensive as compared to what?	11:45
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DocScrutinizer	as in compared to price of a whole device vs price of the sum of its parts. Same for every car and whatever	11:58
DocScrutinizer	LCD + touchpad + flexiboard > complete N900 with mainboard, case, charger and all	11:59
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DocScrutinizer	not exactly, but you get the picture	12:00
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DocScrutinizer	original BL-5J: ~45$	12:00
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DocScrutinizer	(Nokia list)	12:01
DocScrutinizer	I've seen devices where a single spare part was more expensive than the whole device, new, street sale	12:02
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DocScrutinizer	btw I thinks it's extremely poor design Nokia hasn't thought about replacing just the flexicable, I.E. make that detachable from the expensive flexiboard with all the components like front camera, LED, ALS, earpiece...	12:10
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kerio	and add another point of failure?	12:11
DocScrutinizer	hmm	12:11
kerio	maybe they thought it was fine like this, they weren't expecting it to break so often	12:11
kerio	(same for the usb :< )	12:11
DocScrutinizer	yeah, probably	12:11
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MohammadAG	they should	12:12
alterego	de press ed	12:12
SpeedEvil	Another point of failure, another assmebly operation, and another $.1 BOM	12:13
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* MohammadAG depresses ed		12:13
DocScrutinizer	for the USB wait a few weeks/months longer. I bought a bare main PCB, so I'll check out all the undocumented testpads and eventually will come up with a drop-in cradle solution for charging that won't stress USB receptacle by design	12:13
MohammadAG	alterego, then?	12:13
alterego	My ex wants me to go over to the flat and make cakes with her	12:13
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alterego	DocScrutinizer: you bought a N900 main board?	12:14
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: I keep meaning to make a low-profile right-angle connector.	12:14
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DocScrutinizer	alterego: yup	12:14
SpeedEvil	http://www.ownta.com/compatible-nokia-n900-cell-phone-pcb-board-without-spareparts.html alterego	12:14
alterego	DocScrutinizer: nice, how much did that set you back?	12:15
xkr47	alterego, uh.-oh	12:15
DocScrutinizer	see ^^^	12:15
alterego	I think I'm more likely to get a spare screen over any other spare part :)	12:15
alterego	Cheers	12:15
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DocScrutinizer	friggin useless part, except for me to check traces	12:16
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alterego	Oh, right	12:16
alterego	It's just the _board_ :D	12:16
DocScrutinizer	so please don't bother to buy one even for $10, unless you understand exactly what that is	12:16
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alterego	Still yeah, that's quite useful, in conjunction with the schematicsa	12:17
DocScrutinizer	yep	12:17
alterego	I don't really have much interest in modding the hardware tbh.	12:17
DocScrutinizer	I have	12:17
MohammadAG	you're an engineer :P	12:17
DocScrutinizer	also interested in augmenting the incredibly crippled schematics	12:18
alterego	I see the N900 as a platform for me to get seriously into coding Qt apps for the next wave of devices.	12:18
alterego	Heh, still I would like a digital compass	12:18
MohammadAG	install one	12:18
alterego	I think that's the only mod that'd I'd be interested in for the N900	12:18
SpeedEvil	alterego: gyro too is useful	12:19
DocScrutinizer	this project will help designing a hw-mod, so you get a nicely integrated one	12:19
alterego	So I can do some cool augmented reality stuff.	12:19
alterego	Yeah	12:19
MohammadAG	aren't there USB digital compasses	12:19
alterego	MohammadAG: probably	12:19
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: Installed in the actual camera	12:19
alterego	I would prefer a micro sd one tbh :)	12:19
MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, hmm?	12:19
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: there's probably no free USB to hook them up though (if you plan to integrate and solder)	12:20
MohammadAG	alterego, me too, but I doubt they're that small :P	12:20
SpeedEvil	alterego: I've looked into it, but I can't find a compass chip thin enough to put in the microSD.	12:20
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, I was thinking removable and portable	12:20
alterego	SpeedEvil: oh, I thought I saw someone doing one.	12:20
alterego	But they hadn't "done" it yet.	12:20
DocScrutinizer	I'm thinking console tty	12:20
alterego	Admittedly it has very limited use (probably only useful in the N900) :D	12:21
DocScrutinizer	or even something we don't know of yet, like I2C	12:21
alterego	Yeah, that'd be nice.	12:21
DocScrutinizer	there's quite a number of testpads behind battery, which are largely undocumented in schematics	12:22
alterego	Yeah	12:22
alterego	I know there's usb and a tty there	12:22
DocScrutinizer	might even be possible to develop a solder free "plug" for that	12:22
alterego	probably jtag	12:22
DocScrutinizer	yup	12:22
alterego	DocScrutinizer: it is, I plan on doing something along those lines.	12:23
DocScrutinizer	fine :-D	12:23
alterego	I developed a similar cable for another handset.	12:23
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* DocScrutinizer grabs t900, rips out batery and uses caliper rule to see what's headroom for the 'plug'		12:24
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DocScrutinizer	2.56mm :-D	12:27
DocScrutinizer	that's GREAT	12:27
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DocScrutinizer	I think a acrylic block of that thickness, with holes drilled in, and tiny gold plated springs, might do	12:31
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jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: read the wiki	12:35
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: most of these testpads are documented now	12:35
DocScrutinizer	I'm more interested in VBUS for now, for attaching an alternative charging contact assembly	12:35
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: as in half of them	12:35
DocScrutinizer	yeah, I'm wondering about the other half	12:36
jacekowski	well, i was messing with scope on them	12:36
jacekowski	and nothing was there	12:36
jacekowski	but hmm	12:37
jacekowski	i have an idea	12:37
DocScrutinizer	my next plan had been to use R-meter to check if ther's any VBUS pad. But then I bought that blank PCB today	12:37
jacekowski	hmm	12:37
jacekowski	no i don't	12:37
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tybollt	wheee	12:39
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alterego	Should be able to trace the pads back to whaever chip they're connected to and find out what it is	12:40
DocScrutinizer	vbatt, mod omap, mod cmt serial access and cmt xti and ape xti - those are the signals available on testpads. Unconfirmed and don't ask where from I got this	12:40
jacekowski	mod omap?	12:40
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: useful cheat I've used in the past. Get strip of copper foil. Now, probe one point with an ohmeter probe, and the other one connected to teh foil.	12:40
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: now, you can rub the foil over the board, and find where it beeps _lots_ faster	12:40
DocScrutinizer	yep, thought same	12:41
jacekowski	what is that "mod omap"	12:41
DocScrutinizer	sorry, no further info available	12:41
DocScrutinizer	I guess it's modem, or UART	12:42
DocScrutinizer	or mood of day	12:42
SpeedEvil	modem OMAP	12:42
SpeedEvil	that is - the serial port of the modem debug	12:42
SpeedEvil	not the 'application' port	12:42
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DocScrutinizer	well, vbat probably just the batery contact, not actually a testpad	12:44
DocScrutinizer	it's basically what's written on one of those weird expensive fictures	12:45
DocScrutinizer	mod omap is serial console	12:45
jacekowski	btw. do you know that they have nothing inside	12:45
DocScrutinizer	sure	12:46
jacekowski	it's just like a plug/connector converter	12:46
DocScrutinizer	yup	12:46
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DocScrutinizer	it has access to vbatt, mod omap, mod cmt serial access and cmt xti and ape xti -- with pins: left-to-right, top, 7 pins, 6 pins, bottom, 3 pins, 8 pins	12:47
jacekowski	draw it	12:47
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jacekowski	and btw. i never managed to get anything on cmt pads	12:48
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jacekowski	only pads that were alive were omap serial	12:48
DocScrutinizer	XTI eXtended Tracing Interface	12:48
DocScrutinizer	debug output of cmt usually needs some enabling command	12:49
jacekowski	external	12:49
DocScrutinizer	at least calypso did	12:49
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: I'm just offering hearsay	12:50
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DocScrutinizer	and I heard: XTI eXtended Tracing Interface	12:50
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lardman	morning	12:51
MohammadAG	morning lardman	12:51
DocScrutinizer	this is SF-148T	12:51
DocScrutinizer	now you got it all, my secret wisdom :-P	12:52
DocScrutinizer	I don't think it's much of an NDA covered topic anyway, but hard to get that info bits	12:53
DocScrutinizer	next chapter will be genuine RE results of the bare PCB :-D	12:55
DocScrutinizer	donations welcome ;-D	12:55
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jacekowski	well, that's good idea	13:01
jacekowski	buy broken n900	13:01
jacekowski	desolder it	13:01
jacekowski	or just blank pcb	13:01
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: I ordered a blank PCB today ;-D	13:05
DocScrutinizer	donations were meant in $$ or batteries, tools, pizza and beer shipped express	13:06
DocScrutinizer	though I appreciated donations of broken N900 as well	13:07
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DocScrutinizer	January donation balance for h-e-n: ~24EUR :-P	13:09
DocScrutinizer	that almost compensates the one battery I killed	13:10
MohammadAG	remember to split it with Paul :)	13:10
DocScrutinizer	sure	13:11
DocScrutinizer	I'll send half of the pizza to him :-D	13:11
MohammadAG	I want 1/0 of all donations	13:11
MohammadAG	:P	13:12
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kerio	MohammadAG: so you're going to give infinite money to the cause?	13:12
DocScrutinizer	well, that's not hard: 1/0 * (virtually) 0 = 100% of nuttin	13:12
kerio	DocScrutinizer: nope	13:14
kerio	1/0 is nothing	13:14
kerio	0/0 is anything	13:14
MohammadAG	what is +9000/0?	13:14
DocScrutinizer	x (/0 (*0)) = anything of nothing	13:15
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DocScrutinizer	x / 0 = infinite. infinite * 0 = ?	13:16
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DocScrutinizer	or let's just transform: (x * 0) / 0	13:17
DocScrutinizer	= anything	13:18
DocScrutinizer	of nothing	13:18
kerio	x/0 is not infinite	13:18
kerio	x/0 is nothing	13:18
lardman	it's infinite in MATLAB ;)	13:18
kerio	lardman: then matlab sucks	13:18
kerio	it should raise an exception	13:18
lardman	hmm	13:18
DocScrutinizer	limes x/n with n->0 is infinite	13:19
kerio	the limit from the right is +∞	13:19
kerio	and the limit from the left is -∞	13:19
kerio	that's why 1/0 is undefined	13:19
DocScrutinizer	heh, good point	13:19
kerio	in ieee754 divisions, 1/(+0) == +∞ and 1/(-0) == -∞	13:21
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: you meant +0 or -0? X-P	13:21
DocScrutinizer	heh	13:21
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lardman	that works in MATLAB too	13:22
kerio	but that's because ieee754 floats/doubles don't qualify as a field :)	13:22
* DocScrutinizer highfives kerio		13:22
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kerio	"x^(-1)" is defined on all elements except "0", the null element of the "+"	13:23
kerio	where "x^(-1)", "0" and "+" are stuff	13:23
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, + :P	13:24
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DocScrutinizer	you're lucky then. Otherwise I'd send you an invoice about ∞, minus 15% discount for immediate payment	13:25
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kerio	if we're talking about transfinite reals, then ε⁻¹=∞ and	13:26
kerio	*and it's because they're defined as positive quantities	13:27
* DocScrutinizer cackles		13:27
kerio	but you still can't divide by zero!1!1	13:27
* DocScrutinizer sucks at math terribly		13:27
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: see? I toldya this donation button isn't really worth it. Too much overhead :-D	13:29
kerio	(and it's still not really "infinite", it's just bigger than other real numbers)	13:29
DocScrutinizer	not to mention spam mail from paypal	13:29
DocScrutinizer	aleph-what?	13:30
kerio	real, not natural	13:30
kerio	and cardinal numbers only measure the cardinality of sets	13:30
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SpeedEvil	Ah - fun.	13:34
SpeedEvil	Searching google.	13:34
SpeedEvil	Cardinal (Catholicism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaA cardinal is a senior (although they are very spunky) ecclesiastical official, usually a bishop, of the Catholic Church. They are collectively known as the ...	13:34
DocScrutinizer	hmm, I don't really understand what's א_0	13:34
SpeedEvil	Someones reverted it though.	13:34
kerio	DocScrutinizer: it's, by definition, the cardinality of natural numbers	13:35
kerio	the cardinality of a set is "how many natural numbers can i put this set in a bijective mapping with?"	13:36
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DocScrutinizer	toldya I suck at math	13:36
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DocScrutinizer	you must adore it though	13:37
kerio	if your set can be put in a bijective mapping with all the natural numbers, its cardinality is aleph-null	13:37
kerio	which i can't really write in unicode without a left-to-right forcer ._.	13:37
kerio	DocScrutinizer: are there more integer numbers or natural numbers?	13:38
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DocScrutinizer	hard to tell. I guess the simple answer "more natural" is not exactly correct as both aren't limited. Nevertheless natural is more unlimited as there's not en element in int for each element in natural	13:40
kerio	hehe	13:42
kerio	ok, imagine this sequence	13:42
kerio	0 1 -1 2 -2 3 -3 4 -4 5 -5	13:42
kerio	etc. etc.	13:42
corecode	can you get a network/serial console to the n900 via the usb cable?	13:42
DocScrutinizer	yes, sure	13:42
corecode	ok, how?	13:42
kerio	corecode: usb networking	13:43
DocScrutinizer	~usb-networking	13:43
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, usb-networking is http://wiki.maemo.org/USB_networking, or http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking	13:43
kerio	DocScrutinizer: going ahead with that sequence will give you all the ints, right?	13:43
DocScrutinizer	yep	13:43
corecode	beauty	13:43
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kerio	f(n) = int(n / 2) * (-1)**n	13:44
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kerio	give all the natural numbers to that function, and you'll get all the integers	13:44
kerio	:)	13:44
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kerio	you can invert that	13:44
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kerio	(also make that int(n / 2 + 1) )	13:45
ZogG_w	anyone willing to help me with qt ui?	13:45
DocScrutinizer	ZogG_w:	13:46
DocScrutinizer	~ask	13:46
infobot	Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will.	13:46
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ZogG_w	DocScrutinizer: i did	13:47
ZogG_w	~nuke DocScrutinizer	13:47
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at DocScrutinizer ... B☢☢M!		13:47
corecode	..	13:48
kerio	DocScrutinizer: A ∨ ¬A == ⊨, ∀ A	13:48
alterego	I think he's asking for Qt coders to work on his UI DocScrutinizer	13:48
ZogG_w	alterego: \o/	13:48
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ZogG_w	those german people don't understand english =(	13:48
DocScrutinizer	duh, I thought he's asking for help right here and now	13:48
ZogG_w	all they know to try to conquer the world =)	13:49
corecode	fail there too	13:49
ZogG_w	DocScrutinizer i'm thinking to make some small app for maemo, but i wouldn't be able to make a thing in Qt, tried creator and i'm too stupid =(	13:49
ZogG_w	corecode: that's why i said "to try"	13:50
ZogG_w	but we do love DocScrutinizer =)	13:50
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ZogG_w	do we guys? com'on, don't upset him =\	13:50
kerio	i hate him!	13:50
LjL	yeah don't upset me	13:50
* ZogG_w gives LjL a good big joint		13:51
SpeedEvil	People have made apps in python	13:51
* LjL chills		13:51
kerio	woot! python!	13:51
alterego	ZogG_w: what's your app idea?	13:51
RST38h	Well. Moo.	13:51
ZogG_w	SpeedEvil: i want to try to do it in C, but i wouldn't be able to do the Ui	13:51
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xkr47	vala is nice :)	13:51
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ZogG_w	xkr47: brainfuck is nice lang too	13:52
xkr47	in a very different sense	13:52
xkr47	:)	13:52
ZogG_w	alterego: at the start just remote control for xmms2	13:52
xkr47	nice	13:52
alterego	Can't you use lirc for that?	13:52
ZogG_w	local/over local network	13:52
xkr47	you run xmms2 on n900 or ?	13:52
ZogG_w	if i would be able than bluetooth and so on	13:52
ZogG_w	xkr47: no, but there is port to xmms2 by ruskie	13:53
alterego	Surely someone has an xmms plugin for lirc	13:53
ZogG_w	and there is abraca for maemo, not sure n8*0 or n900	13:53
ruskie	iirc n8*0	13:53
ruskie	xkr47, I run xmms2 on my n900 ;)	13:53
xkr47	nice	13:53
ZogG_w	i run ruskie on my n900	13:54
ruskie	though only cmd line client and daemon	13:54
ruskie	lol	13:54
LjL	i'm looking to buy an N810 (or N800, not yet 100% sure) as a present, would like feedback on how much of a terrible idea it is. unfortunately i don't know much about what the person wants, since i want it to be a surprise, but i chose the N810 because she said she fancied an ebook reader and also something like an ipod touch, and i thought the relatively big, transflective screen of the N810 could be a cheap compromise	13:54
xkr47	in soviet russia, n900 runs ruskie	13:54
alterego	Or UPnP	13:54
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lardman	LjL: Screen is too small for ebook reading imho	13:54
ruskie	of course the pkg is an older version... but still does the job..	13:54
ZogG_w	LjL: than u should buy wimax edition	13:54
ruskie	ZogG_w, and I only packaged it... the porting was done long ago by others of what there was needed to do	13:55
LjL	lardman: i don't know, i use my phone as an ebook reader and it has a smaller screen... of course i guess it depends on the person a bit	13:55
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ZogG_w	ruskie: you have opt and non-opt right?	13:55
lardman	indeed, too small for me then :)	13:55
* ruskie uses a 6" eink device for eboox reading...		13:55
ZogG_w	is your repo still up?	13:55
LjL	ZogG_w: i don't think there's going to be any wimax anytime soon here ;) also, never seen those on ebay	13:55
ruskie	ZogG_w, it's all opt now...	13:55
ruskie	since m5 is so sensitive to partitions and crap	13:55
LjL	anyway what about software? are there good ePub-compatible readers for a start?	13:55
LjL	wish i could emulate Maemo	13:55
SpeedEvil	Personally, I read lots of ebooks on my n900	13:55
ruskie	ZogG_w, and yes it is...	13:55
ZogG_w	ljl i saw someone selling on tmo i think	13:55
lardman	We might see some WiMax in the UK as part of this drive for internet access for all	13:56
SpeedEvil	LjL: fbreader is on n810 I think	13:56
lardman	SpeedEvil: ouch, I can feel my eyes hurting already!	13:56
SpeedEvil	lardman: Works for me.	13:56
SpeedEvil	lardman: I have a kindle. I prefer the n900.	13:56
lardman	I know, to each his own	13:56
lardman	I have aTab, prefer the Tab	13:56
LjL	SpeedEvil: oh that's good, i like FBReader on my Android phone	13:56
ruskie	hanlin v3 running openinkpot ;)	13:57
SpeedEvil	lardman: Simply as I can for example turn the brightness way down, and read in bed. Without needing to screw with the lights.	13:57
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LjL	what about web browsing? last i heard, people said the N810 is quite a bit slow, does that impact web browsing a lot?	13:57
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lardman	Kindle is e-ink?	13:57
SpeedEvil	Nevrer used one.	13:57
SpeedEvil	lardman: yes	13:57
LjL	SpeedEvil: yeah that's the main plus of normal screens in my opinion, backlight is lovely	13:57
lardman	ok	13:57
lardman	how much would an N810 be now? It's old tech	13:58
SpeedEvil	It's lots more readable in sunlight of course.	13:58
ZogG_w	lardman: would you be here in several hours? i wanted to ask you something	13:58
kerio	DocScrutinizer: hold on, back to natural numbers	13:58
ZogG_w	as i need to go in several mins	13:58
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LjL	lardman, it depends. i've seen it got for between €70 to €160, and i still cannot explain why	13:58
lardman	ZogG_w: will be at work all day, but you might have some lag if I have to head to the lab to do anything	13:58
SpeedEvil	Ebay says 60-70 quid	13:58
lardman	ZogG_w: but ask away	13:58
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lardman	ok well that's cheap enough to accept the fact that it's old tecj	13:59
lardman	s/j/h	13:59
ZogG_w	lardman: ok, than i'll explaine later, just have a nice idea =)	13:59
lardman	cool	13:59
LjL	SpeedEvil: ebay.co.uk i guess you mean? i haven't seen it go for that low in a while now	13:59
lardman	otherwise drop me a mail	13:59
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ZogG_w	lardman gmail?	13:59
lardman	work is easier - s dot g dot pickering at bath dot ac dot uk	14:00
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* ruskie has been considering getting a few n810 or n800 to put in various places @home		14:00
ruskie	always connected to power of course...	14:00
ruskie	for stuff like recipie books and music playing	14:00
lardman	mmm, home automation and monitoring :)	14:01
* kerio feels that DocScrutinizer doesn't really care about natural numbers :(		14:01
RobbieThe1st	I'd be looking at a SheevaPlug for that	14:01
LjL	right, music playing - is it good for that?	14:01
RobbieThe1st	Possibly cheaper too.	14:01
ruskie	RobbieThe1st, needs to be user friendly ;)	14:01
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RobbieThe1st	meh	14:01
ruskie	lol	14:01
ruskie	for actual use I'd get an always innovating touchbook v2 or maybe a smartbook	14:02
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kerio	LjL: music playing? wait for the dreamplug	14:03
kerio	it has analog and optical out	14:03
LjL	kerio: no i mean as a portable player	14:03
kerio	haha	14:03
LjL	whether the software is decent	14:03
RobbieThe1st	Can't you install rockbox on it?	14:04
lardman	RobbieThe1st: nice to have a display though to see data, music, etc	14:04
RobbieThe1st	Official software's just about the same as the n900 IIRC.	14:04
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ruskie	hmm dreamplug looks nice...	14:04
RobbieThe1st	lardman: I'd use my n900 for that - or something else	14:04
LjL	RobbieThe1st: not like i know what's available for the n900 either :P	14:05
lardman	yeah I guess so	14:05
ruskie	but yeah lack of a display is annoying... so would still need atleast one or two n810... as upnp controlers or something...	14:05
RobbieThe1st	Instant home automation system	14:05
ruskie	need to see if gmediarender can build on arm...	14:05
ruskie	hell could even be usable as a router/firewall with dual ports...	14:06
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DocScrutinizer	LjL: N810 wired audio is just OK. The player is awkward, compared to whatever standards you might be used to. There's canola though, which I personally hate for being too windowsy a GUI, but it might meet your particular preferences better than the stock player	14:14
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DocScrutinizer	(home automation) thought about exactly that for quite some time now. N810 even makes for a nice door bellknob plate, with video and control of door lock (as long as you're not threatened by vandalism)	14:17
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LjL	thanks, i see also Canola is becoming open source now, that's good	14:23
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lardman	now?	14:23
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lardman	is it even used on anything anymore?	14:23
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Shadikka	Oh yay. "Unable to establish network connection. Contact support."	14:24
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LjL	lardman: oh wait whoops. the "news" is from 2008. so i guess it never happened ;(	14:24
lardman	it might be open source now, I've no idea	14:24
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LjL	there is one link to its supposed source code i have found, but it seems to be down	14:25
LjL	Source tree @ code.openbossa.org is unavailable (as of 27-Nov-2010) from http://wiki.maemo.org/Canola	14:26
Venemo_N900	hi	14:26
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xkr47	hui	14:27
xkr47	hi	14:27
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Shadikka	Any good suggestions on why my N900 asks for the PIN code, never accepts it nor locks the SIM card after three incorrect attempts and later on just says "Unable to establish network connection. Contact support." while booting.	14:30
Shadikka	The ironic part is that it just got fixed (USB connector broke)	14:30
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Venemo_N900	Shadikka: does the sim card work correctly in another phone?	14:32
Shadikka	It does. And another SIM card doesn't work in the N900 either.	14:32
SpeedEvil	I'd firs try flashing.	14:32
Titogelo	does anyone know anything about meego and velneo?	14:32
SpeedEvil	~flashing	14:32
Shadikka	I tried reinstalling the software with NSU, next up is probably manual flashing, yeah.	14:32
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infobot	i guess flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	14:33
alterego	Titogelo: you'd do better asking on #meego	14:33
Venemo_N900	Shadikka: try reflash, if it doesn't work return it to the repair rentre	14:33
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Shadikka	yeah, they're so gonna love me.	14:34
Shadikka	"Ohai, I'm back, you broke mah phone ;<"	14:34
Venemo_N900	alterego: what is the command to install something to the madde sysroot?	14:34
alterego	Venemo_N900: mad-admin xdpkg -i	14:35
Venemo_N900	Shadikka: the correct phrase is "hey, repair your sh*t already"	14:35
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Titogelo	ok thanks	14:35
Venemo_N900	alterego: thanks. I tried with mad dpkg, but it didn't work	14:35
Shadikka	Hmm, is there something I could try to grep/search for in dmesg concerning the SIM?	14:36
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Venemo_N900	Shadikka: try asking DocScrutinizer51, he is an expert	14:42
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Shadikka	I've noticed that. :) Quickly browsed through the dmesg and there seems to be nothing out of ordinary. i2c_omap controller timed out, but with some googling it seems to be normal.	14:43
DocScrutinizer	Shadikka: grep cmt	14:44
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Shadikka	"[ 6.738739] CMT speech driver v0.2.0" is the only thing found.	14:45
DocScrutinizer	looks ok	14:45
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Shadikka	oh well, guess I'll break for lunch and then try reflashing	14:45
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Shadikka	Thanks so far. :)	14:46
woki	why do i get this? "Could not find mkspecs for your QMAKESPEC(linux-g++-maemo5)"?? i'm new to meamo	14:46
DocScrutinizer	you could use pnatd to query for a few SIM related operations. Sorry can't quote the related AT cmds off top of my head	14:46
DocScrutinizer	AT+CFUN=? might be some	14:47
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DocScrutinizer	or AT+CFUN?	14:49
DocScrutinizer	at+cfun?	14:49
DocScrutinizer	+CFUN: 1	14:49
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DocScrutinizer	Shadikka: ask SpeedEvil	14:55
SpeedEvil	I'm AFK	14:55
* lardman is an idiot		14:57
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lardman	incremementing the wrong iterator in a for loop	14:57
lardman	doh!	14:57
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DocScrutinizer	Shadikka: 1) reflash 2) clean contacts of SIM and SIM holder 3) delete all SMS and contacts on SIM, using another phone (or SIM reader) 4) carefully bend the SIM holder contacts a little bit outwards/up, so they give higher pressure to the SIM's contact pads	15:02
DocScrutinizer	Shadikka: (for cleaning contacts a rubber eraser with sand (the blue end :-D) is quite useful)	15:03
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LjL-AndChat	What about games on the N810? I understand there is no graphical acceleration (at all?), but still are there some little arcade games or at least good "non-graphical" games, puzzles and the like?	15:06
achipa	depends on your numerical interpretation of the word "some"	15:07
DocScrutinizer	numptyphysics FTW	15:07
Venemo_N900	LjL-AndChat: yes, there are some	15:08
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chem\|st	device recieved, not even an totaly iced city held me back from it...	15:09
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Venemo_N900	LjL-AndChat: you may get me to compile my Puzzle Master game for the N810	15:10
lardman	hmm, impressive, even without moving to CUDA C code is 75/4.13 times faster than MATLAB	15:10
DocScrutinizer51	chem\|st: \o/	15:10
Venemo_N900	congrats chem\|st	15:10
chem\|st	yeah, took them a full month...	15:10
Venemo_N900	lardman: yeah, matlab is slow	15:10
Venemo_N900	chem\|st: what was the problem?	15:10
DocScrutinizer51	chem\|st: you bought some weat ber and coke while you out? :-D	15:11
lardman	Venemo_N900: never used to be quite that slow afaicr	15:11
Venemo_N900	mhm	15:11
DocScrutinizer51	chem\|st: you bought some weat beer and coke while you were out? :-D	15:12
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer51: never and -I keep my friend on distance as he was ordering some bananas-wheat-beer...	15:12
DocScrutinizer51	eeeeeek	15:13
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DocScrutinizer51	chem\|st: what's been the bill?	15:14
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DocScrutinizer51	waranty?	15:14
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Venemo_N900	hm.	15:16
* Venemo_N900 has just received his first ever donation for FOSS		15:16
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SpeedEvil	Venemo_N900: Congratulations!	15:20
Venemo_N900	thanks SpeedEvil	15:21
SpeedEvil	(it wasn't me)	15:21
SpeedEvil	Unless you're really, really not the person I thought you were, and your definition of OSS software is really, really strange.	15:21
kerio	?	15:22
DocScrutinizer	lol	15:23
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Venemo_N900	SpeedEvil: ummm	15:23
Venemo_N900	lol	15:23
DocScrutinizer	I guess SpeedEvil meant as long as you're not the guy in tesco supermarket that sold him those soft bananas...	15:23
Venemo_N900	hehehe	15:24
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Venemo_N900	no, that wasn't me	15:24
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Venemo_N900	seems that Nicolai pushed the "Donate" button in Sticky Notes. shame he isn't on irc, otherwise I'd thank him	15:25
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chem\|st	DocScrutinizer51: insurance payed 220eur	15:34
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chem\|st	DocScrutinizer51: guess I am out of warranty now...	15:35
chem\|st	so who wants to pay 150eur for a used-beered device?	15:35
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Shadikka	I first read that as "user-beered".	15:36
chem\|st	afaik fully functional, the testing shop said the battery is malfunctioning but ok that is a consumable anyways	15:36
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maybeHere	huh	15:37
maybeHere	http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/03/visualized-nokia-randd-spending-almost-3-times-its-peers/	15:37
DocScrutinizer	chem\|st: disassemble, and sell case, LCD, touchpannel etc separately	15:37
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: the idea was to sell the new one's display as "new-bulk" as the current is just fine	15:39
DocScrutinizer	Shadikka: you seen backscroll? I posted some suggestions for you	15:39
chem\|st	that alone should give me 160eur	15:39
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DocScrutinizer	I'd not even dare to disassemble the new one. better sell the old one in parts	15:40
Venemo_N900	chem\|st: so you have 2 of 'em now?	15:40
Venemo_N900	chem\|st: lucky you	15:41
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: another idea would be to buy an n8 cam and test if it is working with the used one and sell the upgrade	15:41
chem\|st	Venemo_N900: no I got one beered and no new yet	15:41
DocScrutinizer	won't fly	15:41
chem\|st	I was \|\| this close to just order a new one	15:41
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DocScrutinizer	err, so what's it you got to sell now?	15:42
Shadikka	DocScrutinizer: Yeah, thank you :)	15:42
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Shadikka	just downloading the fw image	15:42
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: the used	15:42
chem\|st	shipping time is 24h for a new one afair	15:42
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DocScrutinizer	mhm	15:42
Venemo_N900	chem\|st: so if the old works, why buy a new one?	15:43
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DocScrutinizer	so the beered one got repaired and now you're considering to get a new one when you manage to sell the old one?	15:43
chem\|st	hanging "E" and selling it while it is still working makes more sense to me	15:43
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: no repairs but yes	15:44
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DocScrutinizer	the "E" is hanging?	15:44
DocScrutinizer	oh well	15:44
chem\|st	atm I am a bit short so no 160eur	15:44
Venemo_N900	what is "E"?	15:44
DocScrutinizer	a key?	15:44
chem\|st	not exactly hanging it is more like no haptics left, I cannot tell from the keyboard wether I pressed or not	15:45
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	15:45
chem\|st	so sometimes I press twice	15:45
DocScrutinizer	sell the whole device for 160EUR	15:45
chem\|st	but that is a 30eur fix	15:45
SpeedEvil	remove, and try cleaning the vibraror	15:45
chem\|st	new domesheet...	15:45
SpeedEvil	or the contacts	15:45
SpeedEvil	oh	15:45
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SpeedEvil	Or remove, wash, replace	15:46
chem\|st	SpeedEvil: the device is fully functional	15:46
SpeedEvil	dunno how that'd work	15:46
SpeedEvil	it's likely to die further	15:46
SpeedEvil	if you have not removed the beer	15:46
DocScrutinizer	he did afaik	15:46
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chem\|st	yes	15:46
DocScrutinizer	sell	15:46
chem\|st	it does not smell anymore and I cleaned the buttons to work again	15:47
DocScrutinizer	160 seems just fair	15:47
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: 4 me too	15:47
chem\|st	so I will ask my sister if she wants it for 155...	15:47
chem\|st	if not I will think of keeping or rebuy	15:47
chem\|st	-ing	15:47
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DocScrutinizer	well, it's a perfect developer device still	15:48
chem\|st	sure it is	15:48
DocScrutinizer	I hardly ever touch the kbd of t900	15:48
DocScrutinizer	just ssh	15:48
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer51: except when you IRC from the device?	15:49
DocScrutinizer	so yeah, if I had no t900 for that, and had 160, I'd consider...	15:49
RST38h	http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/03/visualized-nokia-randd-spending-almost-3-times-its-peers/	15:49
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N900: that's IroN900	15:49
RST38h	Where does it all go???	15:49
chem\|st	Venemo_N900: even then it is ssh to the device... irssi is your friend...	15:49
DocScrutinizer	t900 never joins IRC	15:50
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: wut? I thought DocScrutinizer51 was from the n900	15:50
DocScrutinizer	it's from IroN900, yes	15:50
DocScrutinizer	from my daily phone	15:50
Venemo_N900	oh	15:51
Venemo_N900	so you have 2 n900s?	15:51
DocScrutinizer	t900 though si sittng here, with ssh open	15:51
DocScrutinizer	yep	15:51
Venemo_N900	one for dev and one for daily use? nice	15:51
sandst1	RST38h: it goes to a lot of places. Nokia has around 20% of the patents in H.264	15:51
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: why do you call the other one t900?	15:52
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N900: frequently messing around with hostmode kernels and bme, and running days long of endurance tests makes that a requirement	15:52
chem\|st	Venemo_N900: it kind of freaked me out to devel on my daily device... but well I got only one	15:52
sandst1	and that's a result of the R%D	15:52
chem\|st	and "hello" bootloop	15:52
Venemo_N900	chem\|st: yeah I develop on my daily one too (got only one)	15:52
RST38h	sandst: who has the remaining 80% and what is he spending? =)	15:52
Venemo_N900	chem\|st: although I don't do such serious stuff as DocScrutinizer	15:53
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N900: I was looking for a short name with 900 in it. Maybe I've seen terminator the evening before	15:53
chem\|st	Venemo_N900: kernel patch and BOOOHOOO	15:53
Venemo_N900	hehe	15:53
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chem\|st	mine is battlestar cassiopeia to fit in my usual namesystem	15:54
Venemo_N900	mhm	15:55
DocScrutinizer	following this convention they should be called voyager and huygens	15:56
chem\|st	galaxies... and the mobile devices fit the colonial nameconvention for battlestars as skypictures	15:56
sandst1	RST38h: no idea, just an example of what they do with the R&D money. that's another question that where does it ALL go :)	15:56
DocScrutinizer	laptop os halley	15:57
DocScrutinizer	is*	15:57
chem\|st	andromeda	15:57
DocScrutinizer	that box died 2 years ago :-P	15:57
chem\|st	;)	15:57
chem\|st	the stationary devices are ships in terms of boats	15:58
chem\|st	tortuga is the router, maryjane is the former server and gwendoline is my desktop	15:58
DocScrutinizer	lagrange (actually should be lagrange-1) for colocated box	15:59
chem\|st	hehe	15:59
chem\|st	it is always fun	15:59
chem\|st	friend of mine has fit in his home nameconvention to the company by purpose as the conventions met at one point (cannot remember if it was startrek to galaxies or something)	16:01
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Venemo_N900	sandst1: I think the entire Maemo development went from the R&D budget	16:04
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sandst1	Venemo_N900: yeah, quite possible. in that case it's R&D money well spent :)	16:05
Venemo_N900	sandst1: I don't know this for a fact, but IMO it's likely the case, considering that these devices were never meant for the mainstream	16:06
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sandst1	Venemo_N900: yeah	16:09
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cehteh	DocScrutinizer: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Hardware-Upgrade-fuer-Openmoko-Smartphones-geplant-1182783.html .. guess you already know? :)	16:24
DocScrutinizer	cehteh: sure Iknow about gta04 - I guess that'S what it is about - but I've not noticed heise news about it yet	16:25
Venemo_N900	cehteh: sounds nice	16:25
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LjL	is there anywhere i can see an acceptably comprehensive list of maemo 2008 games without going through the whole repository and seeing what's a game?	16:25
cehteh	i wonder how much ram and cpu freq that has	16:26
Venemo_N900	cehteh, DocScrutinizer: how does such a device look from the exterior?	16:26
Venemo_N900	LjL: just see the user/games section in the repo	16:26
cehteh	Venemo_N900: thats only a new mainboard you need the old neo gta02 as device	16:26
Venemo_N900	LjL: also I liked the preinstalled tetris app	16:26
LjL	Venemo_N900: erm how do i browse by section (i don't have a N810 yet, right now i'm looking at http://www.gronmayer.com/it/index.php)	16:27
DocScrutinizer	well, I think it's abit weird. Recycle speakers, case, LCD, antenna, battery of GTA02 - exactly the parts that are impossible to get on free market and actually I think are really really sub-par, regarding design etc	16:27
Venemo_N900	LjL: I don't know, sorry	16:28
Venemo_N900	LjL: why're you getting N810?	16:28
Venemo_N900	LjL: you're better off with an N900	16:29
Venemo_N900	LjL: or if you want just a tablet, there are those from Archos	16:29
LjL	Venemo_N900: as a relatively cheap birthday present for my sister (and to tinker with a little before her birthday comes :P) - she expressed interest for ebooks on the one hand and things like ipod touch's on the other, so i thought an N810 might be a sorta reasonable choice. N900 is expensive...	16:30
DocScrutinizer	If Nikolaus of Goldeico had asked me, I had suggested to use case, LCD, antenna, and battery, of an arbitrary Nokia phone, as you can get those as spare parts easily in ~30 shops of every mid sized town	16:30
Venemo_N900	LjL: what about an Archos 5 or Archos 43?	16:30
DocScrutinizer	while for the GTA04 you need to kill 200+EUR worth of hardware to recycle the 50EUR screen and the 5EUR case and shit	16:30
LjL	oh, there is a games list at http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/games/	16:31
DocScrutinizer	just to get another shower radio appeal phone	16:31
LjL	Venemo_N900: well i haven't looked at those with very much attention, but last time i looked on ebay (yeah of course i'm buying the N810 used) i think they were quite expensive, as they are still quite new i think	16:31
Venemo_N900	LjL: you can get a used archos 5 for ~150€, and it's better than the N810.	16:32
AD-N770	I vote N810, I'm still using it to read ebooks	16:32
Venemo_N900	LjL: I'm not familiar with N810 prices. if they're that low, then go for it	16:32
Venemo_N900	N810 is a fun device :)	16:33
LjL	Venemo_N900: well, N810 prices are weird. the ones available in my country go from €70 to €160 (and i have no idea why that much difference), while i saw the ones for UK market are as low as £50. but then again i can't buy those, so.	16:33
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LjL	Venemo_N900: now i was trying to get one for about €100	16:33
Venemo_N900	LjL: which country?	16:34
LjL	italy	16:34
LjL	mind, i don't mean i'm only buying ones sold from italy	16:34
LjL	i'm perfectly willing to buy from abroad, but the cheap ones aren't shipping abroad :P	16:35
Venemo_N900	LjL: usually you can ask the seller to ship to you.	16:35
LjL	that's a good point, i should try asking some of them. so far, i had only looked at ebay.it, without really considering other countries' sites - didn't realize they could be this much cheaper	16:37
Venemo_N900	LjL: I usually look at ebay.de when looking for such stuff - a lot cheaper than prices in my country (Hungary)	16:37
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Venemo_N900	LjL: anyway, if I was looking for a tablet right now, I'd go for either a new archos 43 for €200 or a used archos 5 for €100-150.	16:39
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Venemo_N900	LjL: of course, an N810 below €100 could also be a good deal	16:40
LjL	i'm looking them up a little now (and the prices on ebay do seem reasonably low, although which one is the "Archos 5"? Wikipedia says it could be two things http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archos_5 )	16:40
LjL	i do have to look them up quickly as the N810 auction i'm trying to get now is ending in 30 minutes or so :\ (although i'll probably lose it)	16:41
Venemo_N900	LjL: I referred to the "archos 5 internet tablet" (the newer)	16:41
Venemo_N900	LjL: http://shop.ebay.de/i.html?_trkparms=65%253A12%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1%257C72%253A4669&rt=nc&_nkw=nokia+N810&_dmpt=Handy_Zubeh%C3%B6r&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_sop=3&_sc=1	16:42
Venemo_N900	LjL: http://www.archos.com/products/ta/archos_5it/index.html?country=hu&lang=en	16:44
Venemo_N900	LjL: don't confuse this with the older "internet media tablet", that one is crap	16:44
LjL	Venemo_N900: the archos seems a bit big, but perhaps it's just an impression, the specs are quite impressive	16:44
Venemo_N900	LjL: it's 5"	16:45
LjL	Venemo_N900: this completed listing for instance seems pretty cheap... http://cgi.ebay.it/ARCHOS-5-Internet-Table-16-Gb-/290525844886?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_23&hash=item43a4b09596#ht_2639wt_1141	16:47
LjL	damn now i don't know what to do :P	16:48
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Venemo_N900	LjL: if you can get an N810 below €100 and you don't mind it being unsupported, then go for it	16:48
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Venemo_N900	LjL: if you want higher spec hw, then go for archos 5	16:49
Venemo_N900	LjL: also important difference that N810 has a hw keyboard	16:49
LjL	i do have this fear the N810 hardware is going to be too slow for things like web browsing	16:49
LjL	true	16:49
LjL	but then Android has a number of software input methods available	16:50
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LjL	and with a 5" screen they shouldn't be too annoying to use	16:50
Venemo_N900	LjL: yeah, and smoku ported MeeGo to archos 5 too :)	16:50
LjL	Venemo_N900: to go very offtopic for this channel - how rootable is the archos?	16:50
DocScrutinizer	a new N810 for <100€ is a good deal	16:50
Venemo_N900	LjL: well ask someone who actually has one. I heard it's good	16:51
Venemo_N900	LjL: it can run angstrom and meego too besides android	16:52
LjL	well i'd probably prefer to keep Android on it, but you have a point in that if you can flash other OS's, then obviously you should be able to root its Android too..	16:53
DocScrutinizer	lilfor an occasional web browsing N810 is just fine. Even music from youtube works fine	16:53
DocScrutinizer	LjL: ^^^	16:54
DocScrutinizer	the browser of diablo is a bit clumsy to operate, comparing it to microb of fremantle, but it's absolutely usable	16:55
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LjL	is fennec available btw? i guess not	16:57
Venemo_N900	LjL: it is.	16:57
DocScrutinizer	(clumsy like in no kinetic scrolling, no touch zoom just VOL+/-, sometimes on zoom 120% you get rendering errors at screen borders so you have to scroll up and down to repaint page)	16:58
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DocScrutinizer	still I used it a lot to play youtube music and local mp3 to my home stereo	16:59
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DocScrutinizer	or as an absolutely smart little quite good sounding internet radio	17:00
sandst1	They're gone. http://twitter.com/ipv4countdown	17:00
DocScrutinizer	meh	17:01
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DocScrutinizer	we decided to recycle those of Egypt :-P	17:01
Venemo_N900	lol DocScrutinizer :P	17:02
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Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: the problem with N810's microb is that it doesn't support new web standards well.	17:02
DocScrutinizer	sisn't that the problem of all browsers - and of course of the new webstandards first of all?	17:03
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DocScrutinizer	tbh it's the problem of those friggin gashead "web programmers"	17:04
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: hehe	17:04
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: it had some problems with jquery too.	17:04
DocScrutinizer	like "WTF?! why does this page need FLASH for the idiotic menu??"	17:04
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: I'm talking about css3 and jquery here, not flash	17:05
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Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: N810 microb had problems with css3 last time I checked :(	17:05
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DocScrutinizer	tbh I've not noticed visiting any page using the first, and actually never heard of the second	17:06
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DocScrutinizer	why exactly would I want and/or need those?	17:07
DocScrutinizer	please don't tell me "to visit homepage of fartapp"	17:07
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: well css3 fixes some idiotic limitations of css's previous versions	17:09
DocScrutinizer	my mantra still is like "if you can't use the site with lynx, then it's not worth visiting it"	17:09
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: :)	17:10
DocScrutinizer	so go ahead web-""programmers", use flash and javascript and html5 and whatnot, as long as the site stays usable by lynx I have no objections. If not - FSCKOFF learn yer job!!	17:11
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Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: :)	17:12
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: I do some occasional web dev for acquitances	17:13
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: it's hard to keep a site looking good in all browsers	17:14
LjL	Venemo_N900, DocScrutinizer: i bought the N810 for €87, seems goodish...	17:14
Venemo_N900	LjL: that's good price for it	17:15
DocScrutinizer	I give a shit about looking good. I prefer it being AVAILABLE to all users, rather than _looking good_ to some of them	17:15
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DocScrutinizer	LjL: \o/	17:15
LjL	Venemo_N900: consider also it comes with some nice accessories. http://cgi.ebay.it/Nokia-N810-Internet-Tablet-computer-/180617881450	17:15
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: yes, that is why I prefer to use "graceful degradation" where possible	17:15
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: I personally agree with you, but you'd be surprised how many users care about eyecandy.	17:16
Venemo_N900	LjL: if you want, I can port puzzle master to the N810 :P	17:17
DocScrutinizer	I know, and I also know how tedious it may be to teach them	17:17
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DocScrutinizer	btw this problem absolutely isn't lmited to webpage design	17:18
LjL	Venemo_N900: it does sound like a game my sister could like :)	17:18
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Venemo_N900	yeah DocScrutinizer	17:18
DocScrutinizer	you face it with every second app that thinks it's ok as long as the 3GHz machine does run goodish when only no other process is running concurrently	17:18
DocScrutinizer	..and of course make that 9 out of ten, for games	17:20
Venemo_N900	LjL: it's a jigsaw puzzle which you can play with your own pics too :)	17:20
LjL	Venemo_N900: yep i googled it earlier	17:20
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DocScrutinizer	yeah it's lovely	17:20
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: yeah. there are some that care about older hw though. and some that care about working on Linux too (even if under wine)	17:21
DocScrutinizer	simple, lean, nice, fast, and still fun	17:21
Venemo_N900	nah, my battery is low so I'll quit now. have a nice day guys :)	17:22
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N900: I think I gave you thumb-up for testing?	17:22
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: it isn't in testing yet :(	17:22
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N900: cya	17:22
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: but I'll tell you when it gets there :)	17:22
Venemo_N900	bb	17:22
DocScrutinizer	:-)	17:22
DocScrutinizer	o/	17:22
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Jartza	The number of allocatable IPv4s just dropped to zero. \o/	17:23
DocScrutinizer	yeah, see backscroll	17:23
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Jartza	too much noise in bs	17:24
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DocScrutinizer	I grabbed a million from Egypt, for my daily requirements	17:24
MrBawb	I hope everyone has IPv6 plans :)	17:24
DocScrutinizer	seems they don't need it anymore	17:24
DocScrutinizer	meh, I got a fixed IPv4	17:25
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DocScrutinizer	and my provider seems has a pool of some million, so they won't run short in near future	17:25
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DocScrutinizer	I just wonder how to update the router-modem FW to work with IPv6 evetually	17:27
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* DocScrutinizer pokes ZyXEL		17:27
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deno	hi there	17:27
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alterego	Hrm, angle meter doesn't seem to work for me.	17:29
DocScrutinizer	reboot	17:30
DocScrutinizer	lis302 seems to lockup	17:30
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alterego	Yeah, not the first time this has happened.	17:31
DocScrutinizer	or what is anglemeter?	17:31
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DocScrutinizer	you might try stop mce, modprobe -r lis302dl, start mce	17:32
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DocScrutinizer	you even might try stop mce, modprobe -r lis302dl, <send I2Cset reset cmd to lis302>; start mce	17:32
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DocScrutinizer	be careful with i2cset and lis302, some registers are marked "reserved, do not write, may cause hardware failure"	17:34
DocScrutinizer	OWTTE	17:34
SpeedEvil	Then there are the awesome registers that only nokia knows about off the end of the published register map.	17:35
kerio	AND YOU CAN'T DISTINGUISH THE TWO... MWAHAHAHAHA	17:38
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ZogG	lardman, ping	17:40
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lardman\|home	ZogG: pong	17:55
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ZogG_laptop	lardman\|home, hey =)	17:55
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lardman\|home	hi	17:56
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DocScrutinizer	nah, that's been bq24150. Or have they same secret registers in mce and for lis302 as wel now?	18:00
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SpeedEvil	oops	18:03
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makulkar	I'm getting issues while pushing changes to origin	18:08
makulkar	I cloned from https:// link and push throws up error "Cannot find URL.. return code 22 error"	18:08
makulkar	I tried to change in .git/config of my repo, URL from https to git@.... after that any git clone/push throws up error "Permission Denied (publickey)"	18:08
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ZogG_laptop	thp, ping	18:25
thp	ZogG_laptop: pong	18:26
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ZogG_laptop	thp can i PM you	18:38
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b-man	i think i'm starting to push the integrity of this ipod's A4 - compiling llvm while browsing iFile while installing python xD	18:44
esaym153	anyone know how to increase the internal mic volume on the n810?	18:45
b-man	ffs wron channel :P	18:45
b-man	*wrong	18:45
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SpeedEvil	b-man: Only if you're not compiling maemo.	18:46
thp	ZogG_laptop: yep	18:46
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b-man	SpeedEvil: that would be evil xD	18:47
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b-man	MohammadAG said he'd kill me if i put meego on this thing :)	18:49
VladNistor	talking about meego, has anyone been able to tripple-boot maemo-meego-nitdroid?	18:50
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ZogG_laptop	VladNistor, sounds like threesome	18:57
ZogG_laptop	~ping	18:57
infobot	~pong	18:57
VladNistor	i like threesomes :P	18:57
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ZogG_laptop	VladNistor, 2 dudes and you? =)	18:57
VladNistor	ZoG_laptop, ahahhahah	18:57
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SpeedEvil	maemo-meego-nitdroid-shr	18:58
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ZogG_laptop	SpeedEvil, it's cold orgy man =)	18:58
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SpeedEvil	Umm. Did mer ever get close to booting?	19:00
b-man	hmm	19:00
* SpeedEvil forgets.		19:00
VladNistor	SpeedEvil, ist there a particular order you need to go at this?	19:00
VladNistor	and is it really so that meego dual-booting only works with stock kernel?	19:01
b-man	is the NITDroid project still insistent to sticking with multiboot? :P	19:01
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N900addikt	So what will elop say on feb 11....any scoop here?	19:08
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SpeedEvil	feb 11?	19:08
N900addikt	Whens his speech?	19:09
SpeedEvil	I'm taking the bin out to the end of the road so it can be picked up.	19:09
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N900addikt	Cmon theres some nokia insider dudes here speak man i am listening whats elop got for us?	19:10
andre__	ask elop.	19:11
N900addikt	Nobody know what he gonna do?	19:12
andre__	no.	19:13
ShadowJK	So, if there were anyone here with inside information, you'd assume they got to where they are by being smart. Yet you think they'd be stupid enough to leak classified information in a public channel?	19:13
andre__	sure, we all love to get fired!	19:14
ShadowJK	:)	19:14
N900addikt	im not sayin that but maybe just a hint or some speculation no?	19:14
andre__	N900addikt, for speculations there's enough on the interwebs. go there.	19:14
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SpeedEvil	Sometimes, you can tell as much by what is not said, as what is.	19:14
ShadowJK	the stock markets yesterday sure did anticipate something cool	19:15
SpeedEvil	andre__: Do you deny that Nokia is in fact buying licences to Ios, so they can install it on all their phones?	19:15
N900addikt	Cmon share some shit man why all this secrets	19:15
ShadowJK	rofl	19:15
lardman\|home	ah bollocks, this new N9 is crap, bloody Atom kills the battery in no time flat	19:16
N900addikt	Maemo is dead and symbian same old stale shit i want some exciting fones whats wrong with that?	19:16
lardman\|home	oops, wrong channel	19:16
andre__	SpeedEvil: now if I had the slightest idea what Ios is I could at least come up with something :-P	19:16
ShadowJK	andre__, iphone os :P	19:16
andre__	heh. I thought of Greek goddesses	19:17
lcuk	lol lardman\|home	19:17
SpeedEvil	N900addikt: #meego is where all the cool people of the future hang out.	19:17
lardman\|home	:)	19:17
andre__	I really hate how the nuclear processor of my N3000 prototype sometimes glows at night so I cannot sleep.	19:17
N900addikt	But mego aint ready yet	19:17
ShadowJK	SpeedEvil, N900addikt/MeegoBoy has been kicked out of there already I think :P	19:17
N900addikt	No me	19:18
andre__	N900addikt: if you want exciting phones, found a company and build them.	19:18
N900addikt	I never been kicked here never man	19:18
SpeedEvil	A phone unfortunately costs a large slice of a million or several to develop - just the hardware side.	19:19
N900addikt	But nokia has resources no? Why they have nothing in the top end market?	19:19
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andre__	N900addikt: have you asked Elop? He could tell you maybe	19:20
SpeedEvil	There is one very simple, and rather prosaic way to work out what happens on Feb 11.	19:20
SpeedEvil	I recommend it to you.	19:20
N900addikt	Whic is what?	19:21
SpeedEvil	Wait a week.	19:21
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slonopotamus	wtf is http://repository.maemo.org/community-testing/pool/diablo/free/source/k/kernel-diablo/ ?	19:23
andre__	a kernel?	19:23
slonopotamus	... 16kb?	19:24
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N900addikt	I aint good at waitin for stuff you know what im sayin?	19:25
lardman\|home	practise makes perfect	19:26
N900addikt	Lol...you boys cranky today	19:26
SpeedEvil	N900addikt: I suggest ketamine then.	19:26
andre__	N900addikt: there's another easy workaround for that: Buy a timemachine, or a crystal ball.	19:26
lardman\|home	N900addikt: nobody kniows, that's the issue	19:27
lardman\|home	and I can't type	19:27
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* lardman\|home has to vpn to work, bbl		19:29
N900addikt	Ok i understand	19:29
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N900addikt	I have another question how do i start writing cool apps and stuff on maemo or mego or is maemo dead now?	19:29
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Jartza	N900addikt: learn qt	19:30
andre__	N900addikt: http://maemo.org/development/sdks/ or http://meego.com/developers	19:30
slonopotamus	~curse binary packaging	19:31
infobot	May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, binary packaging !	19:31
N900addikt	That link is a lotta stuff where do i go first? Any quick solutions? If i write in maemo will my app work in mego in case new fones come out?	19:32
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N900addikt	How i learn meamo?	19:33
andre__	N900addikt, if you don't want to read anything you will not learn anything.	19:33
andre__	problem solved? :)	19:33
N900addikt	I wanna read but i thought maemo was easier than the rest of em no?	19:34
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N900addikt	Skype is bad on n900 no? Small screen grainy video sucks man	19:36
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lcuk	N900addikt, what other handhelds do you run Skype on currently?	19:37
N900addikt	Can i f**k around with skype app to make video larger...is this app open source	19:37
slonopotamus	maemo is dead, forget about it.	19:37
N900addikt	Lcuk: i have n900 and E90 commi	19:38
N900addikt	I kno	19:38
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N900addikt	I bought n900 coz i thought fone had promise but nokia forgot about it and no new apps anyways suck man	19:39
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Jartza	N900addikt: the quick solution: learn Qt	19:43
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lcuk	N900addikt, a correctly written app should work happily on maemo and meego and depending on apis used also symbian :)	19:44
ShadowJK	it's not like nokia ever wrote many apps to begin with...	19:46
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RST38h	In reality, it will probably only work with #ifdefs...	19:48
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ShadowJK	thp wrote a blog article on it iirc :P	19:48
lcuk	RST38h, use qt to write it for your platform, #ifdefless then accept patches down the line :)	19:48
RST38h	ShadowJK: Yes, I saw it	19:48
RST38h	ShadowJK: Looks like Avkon is still alive and well, qt or not qt.	19:49
RST38h	lcuk <-- a dreamer	19:49
thp	RST38h: ShadowJK: it should get better with QML and Qt Quick Components, hopefully	19:49
lcuk	RST38h, always :)	19:49
thp	at least in qt creator 2.1 the screen rotation code (still ugly avkon stuff) is at least auto-generated	19:49
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RST38h	Auto-generation is PITA	19:50
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lcuk	so RST38h - how do you do crossplatform code without ifdefs	19:51
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slonopotamus	RST38h: lex/yacc users think you're crazy	19:51
ShadowJK	lcuk, he was describing lazy approach :P	19:52
RST38h	slono: are there any lex/yacc users left?	19:52
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RST38h	lcuk: I completely abstract the platform, then program using the abstraction layer	19:53
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RST38h	lcuk: +POSIX.	19:53
* DocScrutinizer51 throws a +q behind him, like a wedding flowers		19:53
slonopotamus	RST38h: sure. that's the only sane way to do parsing of anything more complex than CSV	19:54
DocScrutinizer51	vme instructs chanserv to +o random users, to make this chan more funny	19:54
ZogG_laptop	when i build in qt creator where do i change build parametrs to add other libs config pkg?	19:55
RST38h	slono: except that lex/yacc is totally unsuitable for anything that does not read data straight from stdin	19:55
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slonopotamus	RST38h: lies	19:56
* DocScrutinizer51 throws another 20 crystal balls and 5 tons of tealeaves to random directions		19:56
ZogG_laptop	i'll just ban myself	19:56
ZogG_laptop	u can't do it	19:56
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DocScrutinizer51	mow for the c+p of a schwitters poem...	19:57
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slonopotamus	RST38h: after all, any compiler is an auto-generator :)	19:58
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DocScrutinizer51	gimme that magic pill to become super warthog and write even bewtter poems myself in 23s	19:58
DocScrutinizer51	damn, fingers frozen	19:59
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DocScrutinizer	yo dawg, no new aps sucks! tellya it sucks so bad	20:02
DocScrutinizer	OMG	20:03
ZogG_laptop	ok i'll repeat, how do i add any parametrs to gcc in qt creator to build an app?	20:05
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ZogG_laptop	<DocScrutinizer> what is your nick on 4chan?	20:05
ZogG_laptop	Doc51-kun?	20:05
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* javispedro shudders at the mention of 4chan		20:06
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DocScrutinizer	would you like your kickban stirred, or sunny side up?	20:06
ZogG_laptop	what would you suggest?	20:07
DocScrutinizer	btw, you should know... I AM KNOWN BY MANY NAMES hrhrhrrrrhrr	20:08
DocScrutinizer	And meego boy made me feel rather kick-happy :-P	20:08
ZogG_laptop	you can kick me if ti would help you =)	20:09
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DocScrutinizer	btw WTF is an elop? can I eat that? Maybe smoke it to get high?	20:10
GeneralAntilles	DocScrutinizer: I think it's what you do when you run off to get married.	20:10
ZogG_laptop	it is that guy who sould say something about n9, isn't he?	20:11
ZogG_laptop	GeneralAntilles, i think i saw u on TMO but never saw u talk here	20:11
GeneralAntilles	ZogG_laptop: on GAN900 more than this these days.	20:11
ZogG_laptop	btw texrat ditched TMO and switched to meego forums?	20:12
Jartza	DocScrutinizer: Elop is just one ARM more than Flop :)	20:12
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ZogG_laptop	Jartza, than give me Blop	20:12
ZogG_laptop	3 ARM's more than Flop	20:13
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Jartza	:)	20:13
ZogG_laptop	so GAN900 is GeneralAntilles ? i was fooled all the time long?	20:13
DocScrutinizer	oooh, and I thought it's the name of the tea leaves meego boy was shouting at to answer and tell him the future	20:13
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DocScrutinizer	another cup of elop, Sor?	20:13
DocScrutinizer	Sir*	20:14
RST38h	heya javispedro	20:14
javispedro	hi RST38h	20:14
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* DocScrutinizer suggests public listening FZ Mytery Man		20:15
DocScrutinizer	damn, my fingers die	20:15
DocScrutinizer	Mystery Man	20:15
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DocScrutinizer	no elop for me	20:17
DocScrutinizer	time for 12648430 ☕	20:17
ZogG_laptop	RST38h, http://www.kakashka.org/index.php	20:17
ZogG_laptop	lol	20:17
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RST38h	ZogG: http://urina-ru.narod.ru/	20:19
* RST38h sighs		20:19
DocScrutinizer	ZogG_laptop: GAN900 vs GeneralAntilles is the hidden test to tell apart the alert from the smart	20:19
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DocScrutinizer	BURP	20:29
DocScrutinizer	who claimed there's no more IPv4 addr now?	20:30
DocScrutinizer	seems my GSM provider ran out of addresses just 70min ago :-P	20:30
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ieatlint	heh, my provider got clever and switched their phones over to the 25.0.0.0/8 address range in 2008	20:33
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ieatlint	and just use it as an internal range like 10.0.0.0/8..	20:34
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kerio	25?	20:38
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ieatlint	"whois 25.0.0.0" .. "descr: DINSA, Ministry of Defence"	20:39
ieatlint	uk	20:39
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ieatlint	they weren't using them anyway :P	20:41
ieatlint	or, at least, here the 25.0.0.0/8 range has no routes at all	20:41
DocScrutinizer51	there's a fsckng lot of unused /16	20:42
ArGGu^^	Does anyone know that is there any problem with ovi store and GPLv2 apps?	20:42
DocScrutinizer51	and /8 as well	20:43
ieatlint	yeah, but even recovering those ips would be a short-lived extension	20:43
DocScrutinizer51	check out MIT	20:43
ArGGu^^	I mean Can I put GPLv2 app to ovi store?	20:44
ieatlint	or apple... i doubt they're using their class that much	20:44
kerio	they should do an iVPN	20:44
DocScrutinizer51	kerio: how's a VPN going to free IPs?	20:46
kerio	it won't	20:46
kerio	but apple has IPs	20:46
ieatlint	http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space/ipv4-address-space.xml ... just look at the list of class a companies...	20:46
ieatlint	ford motors?	20:46
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ieatlint	general electric..	20:47
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kerio	who assigns IPv6s?	20:47
ieatlint	really doubting they use 16m+ addresses	20:47
ieatlint	uh, iana/regional i think	20:47
ieatlint	ARIN/APNIC/RIPE	20:47
Trewas	at least it is nice that 240.x.x.x - 255.x.x.x "future use" addresses were never needed for anything	20:48
ieatlint	even if the ip address space were all recovered, it'd all just delay the inevitable	20:49
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Trewas	that's true, not that ipv6 will become widely used anytime soon even now	20:50
DocScrutinizer51	yeah, the end of the world, err wait, what?	20:50
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ieatlint	eh, i could see places like china making a successful push for it	20:52
DocScrutinizer51	I guess when IPs aren't free anymore, we'll see a flourishing market like we seen for URLs	20:52
* ShadowJK has like 8 IPs		20:52
ShadowJK	and I need them all, muahhahahahah	20:52
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ieatlint	i have ipv6 on my n900	20:53
* DocScrutinizer51 owns 0.0.0.0		20:53
ieatlint	from my provider	20:53
* ieatlint owns 127.34.2.13		20:53
DocScrutinizer51	wow cool	20:53
DocScrutinizer51	and always has ping times <5ms :-P	20:54
ieatlint	yeah, no matter where i am :P	20:54
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ieatlint	at some point i'll get off my ass and set up ipv6... my dsl provider offers free ipv6 tunnelling	20:56
ieatlint	can get a bunch of free public ips with it	20:57
E0x	nice	20:58
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SpeedEvil	A few years back, my UK ISP was offering 8 IPs, if you just wrote to them, for free.	21:00
SpeedEvil	I diddn't, so only have one. :(	21:01
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GeneralAntilles	le sigh	21:04
GeneralAntilles	Knocked the phone into the sink.	21:04
ieatlint	:(	21:05
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GeneralAntilles	First device I've ever water damaged.	21:06
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* GeneralAntilles goes to buy cheap rice.		21:06
javispedro	THE N900 on the sink?	21:07
ieatlint	aww, the n900 was your first	21:08
kerio	i currently have 62.10.74.PROTECTED	21:08
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kerio	but it's dynamic :(	21:08
kerio	freeeeeeeeeenodeeeeee	21:08
ieatlint	that's enough for me to localise which country and region you're in though	21:09
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b0unc3	hello, someone can help with this : http://bit.ly/evCv1f ?	21:09
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vi_	tremulous!!	21:27
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piggz	in the contact app, if i have various IM accounts, they each have their own group....i noticed in the merge contacts plugin, i can select the group 'Cellular' to only show normal contacts added to the phone...is it possible to show this group in the contacts app somehow, as it isnt shown as an option when selecting a group...ie, image adding a fb account with several hundred people	21:28
E0x	exclude some group ?	21:29
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GeneralAntilles	vi_: hell yes!	21:33
GeneralAntilles	javispedro: September proto is long dead. This is my Amazon device.	21:34
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vi_	whos gonna port it and earn the 50$ bounty???	21:34
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GeneralAntilles	vi_: is 1.2 out yet?	21:34
vi_	lol harharharhar	21:36
vi_	i hear 1.2 is gonna come with a demo of duke nukem forever on floppy disk	21:37
vi_	what is your trem tag?	21:38
GeneralAntilles	vi_: GeneralAntilles.	21:39
GeneralAntilles	Haven't played in at least a year, though.	21:39
GeneralAntilles	Don't know if you've ever heard of NULL.	21:39
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vi_	i remember some chap named /dev/null	21:41
vi_	but that was long ago on tbase	21:42
GeneralAntilles	Used to run on DretchStorm and MG	21:43
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blackthorne	Hi	22:02
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RST38h	Every year, more and more Americans are dying in deserts and wildernesses because they rely on their GPS units (and, to some degree, their cellphones) to always be accurate.	22:07
trx	we here in serbia cant die like that	22:08
trx	we can only afford maps :)	22:08
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RST38h	I believe RPGs are cheaper in Serbia.	22:08
trx	RPGs?	22:09
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wmarone	I believe RST38h's information on Serbia is out of date	22:12
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johnsq	Hi	22:21
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trx	yeah, some 20 years	22:24
trx	and even then, rpgs were not used..	22:24
trx	or very little	22:24
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trx	anyways	22:25
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trx	does qt automaticaly convert mouse down + move to scrolling when QScrollArea?	22:26
trx	cant get it to work, i assign a widget and it just does nothing	22:27
trx	custom widget tho...	22:27
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col0ur	DocScrutinizer, stop being a fuck	22:55
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b-man	O_o	22:56
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DocScrutinizer	nice to hear you try to stop being a fuck	22:56
b-man	that wasn't necessary...	22:57
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DocScrutinizer	nah	22:57
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		22:57
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Venemo	good evening guys	22:57
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer		22:57
Venemo	is maemo.org down again?	22:58
b-man	DocScrutinizer: apologies for col0ur being an ass ;P	22:58
DocScrutinizer	I'm in a kick-happy mood anyway today, and /whois works	22:59
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b-man	DocScrutinizer: by all means, kick him - he can be an egomaniac at times ;)	23:00
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N900addikt	Hey	23:00
DocScrutinizer	I'm getting pissed about offense and insult becoming a leisure pursuit here.	23:01
N900addikt	Whazz up?	23:01
N900addikt	Did i miss somethin intrestin?	23:02
N900addikt	Fellas?	23:02
DocScrutinizer	nah, just usual idiocy	23:02
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DocScrutinizer	but you somewhat seem have started it, some hours ago	23:03
Venemo	hey DocScrutinizer	23:03
N900addikt	I did? Sorry fellas. I had to leave	23:04
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: you had some nice feature recommendations for puzzle-master	23:04
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ShadowJK	yeah you missed the scoop on the future nokia battery. Half fuel cell, half Li-Ion. You fill it with ethanol (imagine filling a lighter), and it charges the Li-Ion battery. Lasts 20 times longer than regular battery	23:04
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: could you re-post them for me?	23:04
* ShadowJK just made that up :D		23:04
N900addikt	What else is left for us forgotten disgruntled n900 owners, we come in and bitch and moan that our goddam given right man	23:04
Venemo	N900addikt: wut?	23:05
N900addikt	Thats our goddam right man	23:05
DocScrutinizer	N900addikt: and you earn a +q for it - go ahead	23:05
N900addikt	Why?	23:05
DocScrutinizer	just because	23:05
N900addikt	What i say?	23:05
N900addikt	Be gentle with me man	23:06
DocScrutinizer	this channel is meant for maemo user and developers, not for maemo haters and general rant about nokia	23:06
ShadowJK	leave us Happy N900 owners alone :(	23:07
DocScrutinizer	exactly	23:07
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N900addikt	I aint hater just pissed bro	23:07
DocScrutinizer	if you don't like maemo, don't use it, but please go elsewhere to bitch about the fact	23:07
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DocScrutinizer	I really hoped we put an end to that topic and kind of discussions some 6 months ago	23:08
N900addikt	you wrong bro great things get accomplished thru discussion man not through ass kissin know what im sayin?	23:09
ShadowJK	there's nobody here to "ass kiss"	23:09
DocScrutinizer	I know I neither like your diction nor your notion	23:09
Venemo	N900addikt: what's your problem?	23:09
DocScrutinizer	the missing +q	23:09
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DocScrutinizer	we can change that easily	23:10
Venemo	+q=?	23:10
DocScrutinizer	quiet	23:10
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Venemo	ah!	23:10
N900addikt	I love maemo and want n900 to suceed but it seems our pleas are falling on deaf ears cause nobody give a damn about n900 no more know what im sayin?	23:10
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Venemo	N900addikt: not true	23:11
Venemo	N900addikt: I give a damn.	23:11
jacekowski	true	23:11
jacekowski	n900 is abandoned almost 2 years old phone	23:11
jacekowski	and replacement is couple months away	23:11
DocScrutinizer	and I don't care	23:11
DocScrutinizer	and I don't learn anything from N900addikt telling me those notions of him	23:12
N900addikt	Well xcept for 3 hobbists on this chanel nobody else give a damn and the industry dont give a damn and there aint new apps comming out know what im sayin?	23:12
DocScrutinizer	SO WHAT????	23:12
Venemo	N900addikt: not true	23:12
ShadowJK	You know if they made a N901 with more ram, and runnig same old Maemo5, I'd buy it :P	23:12
Venemo	N900addikt: puzzle-master is a new app. so new apps are coming out	23:12
Venemo	N900addikt: go try it.	23:12
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: sorry, can't recall what's been my suggestions for puzzle	23:13
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer: you recommended that it should remember the user-selected images, which I've done today	23:13
N900addikt	The apps on maemo are mostly pos wheres the excitment that was promised everybody had a hardon when n900 was announced but then it died slow death why i ask why???	23:13
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer: however there was something else that I can't recall.	23:14
Venemo	N900addikt: 'pos'=?	23:14
ShadowJK	position?	23:14
DocScrutinizer	N900addikt: no matter if your rant is true or not - what's your fscking point, man? you know what I'm sayin?	23:14
Venemo	ShadowJK: so what does 'apps on maemo are mostly pos' mean?	23:14
N900addikt	pos mean piece of s**t you dont know this bro?	23:15
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Venemo	N900addikt: sorry, I'm no native English speaker.	23:15
N900addikt	Doc my beef aint with yous man	23:15
Venemo	N900addikt: however it is a great insult for me that you call my app 'piece of shit'.	23:15
N900addikt	DocScrutinizer: my beef aint you sorry bout that bro	23:16
N900addikt	Venemo: what app?	23:16
ShadowJK	pork too?	23:16
DocScrutinizer	me neither, and especially not grown up in some rapper posse, yo man	23:16
Venemo	N900addikt: read scrollback	23:16
N900addikt	Why u making fun of the way i speak? No everybody was born english some of us are doin our best	23:17
Venemo	N900addikt: Doc isn't English either.	23:17
Venemo	N900addikt: so what is the purpose of your trolling here?	23:17
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N900addikt	u make fun of way i speak u call me troll....what i do to yous bro?	23:18
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trx	just ~q..	23:18
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Venemo	N900addikt: I didn't make fun of the way you speak, since I've never heard you speaking.	23:19
N900addikt	Go check the meaning of irc in diktionary bro its where everybody speak man	23:19
* DocScrutinizer suspects N900addikt == N900hater == N900lover == the troll that got banned at least 4 times already		23:19
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Venemo	MohammadAG: ping	23:19
DocScrutinizer	and I'm 5 seconds from fixing the missing +b	23:19
N900addikt	DocScrutinizer: no true man i aint been banned	23:19
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Venemo	N900addikt: can't you locate the apostrophe character on your keyboard?	23:20
N900addikt	Ok....why you so mean bro?	23:20
N900addikt	I sayed to you i aint english bro capisci?	23:20
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Sc0rpius	"said"	23:20
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N900addikt	Said	23:21
Sc0rpius	anyway do you have a question?	23:21
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N900addikt	why was i lied to when i buyed n900	23:21
Sc0rpius	"bought"	23:21
Sc0rpius	sell it and buy an Android phone, or an iPhone, and problem solved	23:22
Venemo	N900addikt: so if you "ain't" English, then go to an English course and learn English first, please.	23:22
Sc0rpius	you don't need to have a hard time with it	23:22
Venemo	N900addikt: and I'm not your 'bro'.	23:22
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N900addikt	we all had a hardon when n900 was announced and then the fizzle died xcept for hobbysts here bro	23:23
Venemo	N900addikt: I'm not your 'bro'	23:23
MohammadAG	Venemo, pong	23:23
Scorcerer	go cry in your bed already, nobody here cares	23:23
DocScrutinizer	N900addikt: we are not Nokia customer care here, and we're not your personal psychiatrists, and I'm really temped to kick you for offensive speech, trolling, and an IP and diction and nick that damn resembles that of N900hater	23:24
Venemo	MohammadAG: what was the solution to reach ~/QtSDK/Maemo/4.6.2/bin/mad as simply mad?	23:24
N900addikt	What offensive speech bro?	23:24
Venemo	MohammadAG: I think it was some kind of alias, but I can't recall how it was	23:24
Venemo	N900addikt: none of us are your bros here. please don't call us that.	23:24
Venemo	N900addikt: why don't you simply sell the N900?	23:25
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col0ur	DocScrutinizer, i love you :) <3	23:25
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b-man	....:P	23:25
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		23:25
*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +b col0ur!@		23:25
b-man	thank you :P	23:25
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer		23:25
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N900addikt	Sorry bros	23:26
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		23:26
N900addikt	I m just a victim	23:26
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till\|	bye bye :)	23:26
*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +q N900addikt!@		23:26
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Venemo	thanks DocScrutinizer :)	23:27
DocScrutinizer	ping me if you learnt to listen to others asking you not to call them bro, bro	23:27
Venemo	N900addikt: so, do you get it that we are NOT your bros?	23:27
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer		23:27
DocScrutinizer	anybody else without a ticket?	23:27
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		23:30
*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +b !@wikipedia/Archanamiya		23:30
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DocScrutinizer	darn, not even Friday yet	23:31
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Venemo	MohammadAG: so do you remember how it was?	23:35
Skyscraper	hi	23:35
Skyscraper	can maybe anyone compile "cryptlib" for n900?	23:36
Venemo	Skyscraper: why don't you?	23:36
Skyscraper	Venemo: dont know how... tryed to "make" in n900 xterm... but doenst work :D	23:36
DocScrutinizer	missing 67GB free space for SB?	23:36
DocScrutinizer	:-)	23:36
Venemo	Skyscraper: try on your computer	23:37
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: that's mean	23:37
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Skyscraper	Venemo: i need maemo sdk i think?!	23:37
DocScrutinizer	yep	23:37
DocScrutinizer	and it's a friggin monster	23:37
Skyscraper	is it possible to install on Xubuntu 10.10 i386 ?	23:38
Venemo	Skyscraper: yes, it is.	23:38
Venemo	Skyscraper: there are lots of other things needed usually 'make' is not enough.	23:38
Skyscraper	okay... because i have my (now running =) ) lazarus+fpc setup for crosscompiling running here too	23:38
Skyscraper	Venemo: why?	23:38
Venemo	Skyscraper: we could help you if you gave us the error messages.	23:39
Skyscraper	i only need this f**** libcl.so	23:39
Skyscraper	for n900	23:39
Skyscraper	my crosscompiler wants it xD	23:39
Skyscraper	because i'm using cryptlib in my app	23:39
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Venemo	Skyscraper: mhm	23:39
Venemo	Skyscraper: so what's the error message?	23:39
Skyscraper	no error message at this time... only from lazarus... wanting libcl.so ;)	23:40
Venemo	Skyscraper: so install libcl, whatever that is	23:40
Skyscraper	libcl is cryptlib	23:40
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Venemo	Skyscraper: I mean, what was the error when you tried to compile libcl?	23:41
Skyscraper	Venemo: i have to download sdk ;)	23:41
Skyscraper	on the phone itself i have no gcc	23:41
MohammadAG	retarded question for a retarded person	23:42
Venemo	MohammadAG: ?	23:42
MohammadAG	shouldn't a Nokia uSD card work in a samsung phone?	23:42
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MohammadAG	a Nokia branded uSD card should work in any phone with a uSD slot, right?	23:43
Venemo	MohammadAG: right.	23:43
MohammadAG	it isn't	23:45
Skyscraper	do i have to start the maemo-sdk-install-wizard_5.0.py as root?	23:45
Sc0rpius	I wonder if I ever did that	23:46
Skyscraper	yes i have to :D	23:46
Skyscraper	./maemo-sdk-install-wizard_5.0.py Python Qt4 bindings are not found! Do you want to install missing package "python-qt4"? (Type "y" to install) y Executing command: ['apt-get', 'install', 'python-qt4'] E: Sperrdatei /var/lib/dpkg/lock konnte nicht geöffnet werden - open (13: Permission denied) E: Sperren des Administrationsverzeichnisses (/var/lib/dpkg/) nicht möglich, sind Sie root? Automatic installation of package "python-qt4"	23:47
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till\|	try sudo .... ?	23:48
Skyscraper	till\|: yes thanks... its already running	23:48
MohammadAG	how do I recover a microSD password	23:48
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Skyscraper	what is VDSO kernel parameter?	23:49
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Sc0rpius	oh :(	23:49
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ieatlint	"LONDON – Egyptian authorities forced Vodafone to broadcast pro-government text messages during the protests that have rocked the country, the U.K.-based mobile company said Thursday." ... this is why support for SMS-CB really needs to be added to the n900	23:51
ieatlint	imagine all those users who missed out on these messages :(	23:51
Sc0rpius	what's SMS-CB?	23:51
ShadowJK	cell broadcast	23:51
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Sc0rpius	that sounds like "spam" to me	23:52
Sc0rpius	actually, what does it has to do with the mobile? SMS-CB is implemented at SMSC level	23:52
Venemo	Skyscraper: it needs to be turned off in order for the SDK to work	23:52
Sc0rpius	the mobile would just receive a normal SMS.	23:52
Skyscraper	Venemo: ok good... i have checked the "permanent" checkbox ;)	23:52
MohammadAG	meh	23:53
Venemo	Skyscraper: you need to modify your kernel line	23:53
MohammadAG	it was password protected	23:53
Venemo	MohammadAG: you can't recover a microSD password	23:53
Proteous	format!	23:53
haj	I wonder if I'll be able to use a Nokia carcharger to charge my N900 on this old bike I'm "restoring" -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blQg253dr0k	23:53
Skyscraper	Venemo: installer done that for me i think	23:53
haj	It's 6V...	23:53
Proteous	do we need to watch a youtube video to answer that question?	23:53
haj	You should, it's a nice bike :)	23:53
Proteous	uh huh	23:54
ieatlint	Sc0rpius: see bug #8347	23:54
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8347 Cell Broadcast Feature not available	23:54
haj	nah.. but I wonder if the 12V charger will do anything at 6 volts :)	23:54
Proteous	it won't	23:54
ShadowJK	haj, probably better to use that 2+3.5mm to musb adapter	23:54
ShadowJK	CA-146C	23:54
ShadowJK	if you have one	23:54
* Sc0rpius goes to read the bug		23:55
Skyscraper	anyone already developed an app which does some thinks when n900 registers at GSM CELLID xy	23:55
* SpeedEvil tries to remember who here was from egypt.		23:55
Skyscraper	*things	23:55
MohammadAG	Venemo, it was 1234	23:55
MohammadAG	I'm close to killing someone	23:55
haj	ShadowJK: and just connect it directly to the 6V battery? problem is that the power goes up to about 7V when running at high revs..	23:56
Venemo	MohammadAG, lol	23:56
ShadowJK	haj, so theoretically it accepts 3-11V	23:56
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ShadowJK	in practice it goes into meltdown sometimes :)	23:56
haj	ShadowJK: I don't think I'd like meltdown.. :)	23:56
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: where from these specs?	23:57
haj	ShadowJK: I guess it should be safe enough when the motor is not running though...	23:57
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, 2mm charging system accepts 10V with sufficient input impedance, so..	23:57
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DocScrutinizer	mhm	23:58
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ShadowJK	haj, i guess you could try car charger too, one of the ones I have works down to 6-7V or so..	23:58
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till\|	i've used a homebrew charger for my n82 and n800 on my bicycle :)	23:58
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SpeedEvil	http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4212726/Intel-has-late-metal-fix-for-design-error?cid=NL_EETimesDaily#	23:59
till\|	sometimes charging did stop when going downhill	23:59
MohammadAG	Venemo, he was arguing about crap I knew was right	23:59
SpeedEvil	The perils of electromigration.	23:59
MohammadAG	like a Nokia uSD only working in a Nokia phone	23:59
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: o.O	23:59

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