IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-11-26

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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: maybe because the sensors are really expensive?00:01
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: that technlogy was known 10 years ago00:01
jacekowskiand prices went down only by couple %00:01
DocScrutinizermhm00:02
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DocScrutinizerno moore's shrinking, no increasing production numbers on the sensor00:02
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jacekowskiyeah, no research so that cost is gone00:03
jacekowskii would buy it00:04
DocScrutinizerCRT tubes and 1/4" CCD sensors and resistors also didn't significantly drop in price00:04
jacekowskifor half price00:04
chrissbxAnyone else seeing the skype client stopped working? It thinks it is logged in, but I cannot place calls and buddies are not shown as logged in when they actually are.00:04
Choomthermal sensors need to be cooled, otherwise they'll see their own thermal glow00:04
jacekowskiChoom: not anymore00:04
DocScrutinizerthere's nothing to optimize, on some devices00:04
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jacekowskiChoom: uncooled microbolometers were invented over 10 years ago00:04
Choomthat doesn't make a lot of sense00:05
DocScrutinizerthat's called PIR00:05
jacekowskiChoom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbolometer00:05
Choomif the sensor is at room temperature and you're trying to see something coolder than that it won't work00:05
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jacekowskiChoom: well, it does00:06
jacekowskiChoom: you can compensate for that00:06
jacekowskieverything that's warmer than absolute 0 will radiate00:06
jacekowskiand heat up sensor00:06
jacekowskimore or less00:07
jacekowskiit's energy00:07
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jacekowskioO00:09
DocScrutinizerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyroelectricity00:09
jacekowskii just read that fluke and tektronix are one and same company pretty much00:09
ChoomOK00:10
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DocScrutinizerChoom: when you're sitting in a room with 22°C air temperature and same temperature walls, and another time same room same air but walls have -50°C... I bet you'd notice, though you are evidently higer temperature than the walls in both cases00:28
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DocScrutinizerotherwise those gold/silver plastic film recue blankets wouldn't make much sense00:30
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DocScrutinizerrescue*00:30
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crashanddieisn't that about heat radiation?00:38
nox-thats what ir is...00:38
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crashanddieDocScrutinizer: except that the survival blankets barely work through radiation -- their greatest effectiveness comes from their windproof and waterproof characteristics00:40
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sivangsomething funny about desining voice recognition interfaces:00:50
sivanghttp://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=45555963310400:50
Choommeh, requires a facebook account00:51
sivangChoom: it does? screw it :-/00:51
ChoomI've been somewhat interested in that subject though00:51
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sivangChoom: shows in a sarcastic and ironic way how the lack of thought about scottish and irish accents leaves 2 bloaks stuck in en elevator00:52
ChoomLOL00:52
sivangChoom: I wish you could watch it00:53
crashanddieblokes**00:53
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DocScrutinizernot really a joke. A friend of mine seen some Universitary dudes presenting their speech recog system on a convention. When somebody with a easern german accent came along and tested it, it segfaulted (aka BSOD'ed)01:02
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ChoomI can barely wait for the speech crackers of the future01:04
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pupnikwb javispedro01:04
javispedrohey pupnik01:05
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pupnikany interest in snes9x4p?01:07
pupnikhere's the scalers  http://pastebin.com/1swmb0gp    http://pastebin.com/TpgbVf1W01:07
pupnikdon't understand much of what's going on though01:08
javispedroso far not really interested01:08
pupnikmhm01:08
pupnikanybody else interested in SNES emu, here's a nice vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiTD9EMxjMI01:08
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javispedroI mean I don't see what's new about it01:09
crashanddieLOL http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosensitive_epilepsy01:10
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sivanghey javispedro01:11
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javispedrohi sivang01:12
pupnikoh awesome, Ian was working on the meego deferred gl01:12
javispedrowhy?01:13
javispedroI mean, what do you wanto to get from that? :)01:14
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pupniki want to run in vmware or virtualbox javispedro01:15
javispedrooh01:16
pupnikhttp://conference2010.meego.com/session/opengl-acceleration-meego-simulator-and-emulator01:16
javispedrobut that has nothing to do with deferred gl?01:16
pupnikwell, i think it does01:16
pupniknot sure01:16
javispedrowell01:17
javispedroI think a vmware drm was in progress01:17
javispedrohttp://www.mail-archive.com/dri-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg45658.html -- this says it's already on staging01:18
javispedroso it might very well be a matter of just rebuilding the kernel01:18
sivangjavispedro: what's vmware drm?01:19
MohammadAGgnite everyone01:19
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sivangnight MohammadAG01:20
javispedrognite MohammadAG01:20
javispedrosivang: a direct rendering manager -- basically the "new"-style GPU drivers01:20
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pupnikty javispedro01:21
sivangjavispedro: I see, what the difference to "old" style ones then?01:21
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javispedrosivang: a bit long to explain atm01:23
sivangjavispedro: ok, never mind :)01:24
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PaulyHi, im on n900 and ovi store is not working. btw just reflashed pr1.301:58
Paulyit says to update my phone?01:58
pupnikPauly: perhaps you have found a bug02:01
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Paulywant me take a screenshot?02:06
Paulybut the title of the page says ovi store coming soon.02:07
FIQ|n900double check your firmware version02:07
FIQ|n900@ settings @ about your device02:07
Pauly20.2010.36-2.00202:09
Paulyi know its pr1.302:09
FIQ|n900yeah02:09
FIQ|n900it is02:09
Paulyovi store work with yours?02:09
FIQ|n900dunno, that icon has disappeared from my menu for some time02:11
FIQ|n900haven't cared02:11
Paulyshould be a browserf bookmark02:12
FIQ|n900ah, there02:12
FIQ|n900hm...02:12
FIQ|n900yep, working here02:12
Paulyuh oh maybe my phone is broke02:13
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comawhitePauly, did it turn into a paper weight?02:17
Paulyno i am currently on it02:18
Paulyim on the webchat on freenode on n90002:18
comawhiteah02:18
Paulyshould i restart it?02:20
Paulybut that would kill my battery02:20
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myuupaperweight app now on extra-devel?02:24
DocScrutinizeryeah, for 0.99$02:25
DocScrutinizeruninstaller: 199$02:25
myuulool02:25
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DocScrutinizerI wonder how long that would survive on OVI, and how many sales actually02:26
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DocScrutinizerhm, frozen planet. That'd suggest the answer to my previous question is "rather long, 0"04:23
DocScrutinizeroops, if I tried to speak what I write I would hav noticed nobody ever says " That'd suggest " :-P04:24
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derf"That suggests" is more idiomatic, but "That'd suggest" is not terrible.04:25
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DocScrutinizertry to speak it loud! Don't come and ask how to fix your tongue after that :-P04:36
DocScrutinizerfeels like a mix of australian bushman and arab04:38
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Ryuodjincan i ask if updating n900 to pr1.3 will cause it to lose all data?04:40
derfIt poses no problem for my tongue.04:40
DocScrutinizerRyuodjin: usually no data is lost when updating by OTA/SSU. Nevertheless a backup by using the backup app is strongly recommended. Also best this backup is stored to a uSD card rather than internal eMMC04:44
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pytherHello04:49
pytherI want to convert a mkv to watch on the N90004:49
pytherwhat would be a reasonable bitrate? THe wiki seems to suggest 300 at a scale of 352:20804:50
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ShadowJKh264 baseline, 800x480.. dunno bitrate, 2M perhaps?05:03
pytherShadowJK: ok cool, I actually found a handbrake file that should give me h264 baseline, so I'm trynig that05:04
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nox-hm if n900 would be `fast enough' for h264 why isnt fennec's html5 webm stuff watchable?05:04
SpeedEvilThere is hardware accel05:06
DocScrutinizermaybe because fennec doesn't have DSP accelerated H.264?05:06
nox-ah hm05:06
ShadowJKAlso if it wants to blend stuff ontop of the video, the CPU requirements go up dramatically :)05:07
DocScrutinizerif it doesn't exploit the hardware multilayered video buffering that obviously is used in mediaplayer, then yes, this would kill much stronger CPUs05:10
ShadowJKThe "multilayered" stuff is more like two independent displays, and the video shines through a specific shade of black drawn on the usual display05:12
ShadowJKFlash wants to do alphablending, in rgb, ontop of the video, so even if the decode was hw accelerated, pulling the decoded picture back into the CPU and converting it to RGB is already probably using more CPU than playing it with the media player does in the first place :-)05:13
DocScrutinizerthat's what I meant, yes05:13
ShadowJKnvidia on x86 with the vdpau stuff has nice way to deal with that for subtitles and such05:14
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DocScrutinizerI'm sad I missed to start a N900 marathon with IRC on 8 chan over 3G, some 6h ago. Probably I could have reached a new record for battery live, given the fact the internets seem to have died. Solar activity?06:00
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DocScrutinizerSNOW :-(((06:02
DocScrutinizerok, the internets not dead, just frozen06:03
DocScrutinizer~howl06:03
infobotAROOOOOOOO!06:03
Dante_Jnot frozen in Brisbane, Australia06:03
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DocScrutinizermeh, you're upside down. Take care you're not falling off the ball06:05
Dante_Jenjoy the cold :p06:05
DocScrutinizer:-S06:05
pupnikmarp06:06
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Paulyhi07:14
Paulydoes any twitter app for n900 have scrollable homescreen widget?07:14
Paulythat yous know of07:15
Paulythank you07:15
Paulyoh btw i fixed my ovi store problem it was because of hide user agent07:15
pupniknice Pauly07:20
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ddhananji m getting com.nokia.package_manager.Error.OperationFailed while installing a package08:49
ddhananjany help?08:50
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psycho_oreosmessage not verbose enough08:53
psycho_oreosmaybe try installing by hand (apt-get) and see if there's any issues with installation, if not, its an issue with HAM then I suppose08:54
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slonopotamusrandom observation: passing --fast to flex produces parser that is ~10% faster09:03
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RST38hslono: the main trouble is yacc/bison anyway09:04
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slonopotamus_meh.09:07
slonopotamus_RST38h: what trouble?09:07
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RST38hslono: performance, weird behavior (usually traceable to something you have done wrong though)09:08
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slonopotamus_Season significantly affects bison performance with winter feed intake and gain lower than the other three season09:10
slonopotamus_:D from "bison performance" google results09:10
meceslonopotamus_, good to know.09:10
RST38hehhehe09:10
meceI'll stock up on high energy food for my bisons09:11
meceerm bison09:11
slonopotamus_RST38h: well, i'll rephrase. adding --fast gives 10% performance gain to my flex+bison parsing thingie09:12
RST38haha09:12
slonopotamus_so raw flex gain might be even bigger09:12
* RST38h checks what the magicaloption actually does09:12
RST38hah, ok, it does not compress parsing tables then09:13
slonopotamus_yep, whole flex file grew from 70 to 100kb.09:14
slonopotamus_RST38h: actually, after some tests, real gain comes from the fact that it uses read instead of fread09:17
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* RST38h involuntarily rotfls09:18
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: HIIIIILFE!09:21
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: wanna rotfl? --> http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=883071&postcount=441 ff ff ff09:25
* DocScrutinizer headdesks09:25
meceDocScrutinizer, aaahah, I LOL'd09:26
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MohammadAGplease take a stone LOL09:27
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RST38hDoc: This one wouldn't pass the Turing test, for sure.09:30
MohammadAGwhy does microB suck in terms of browserd reloading09:31
MohammadAGif browserd is restarted, it just sits there09:31
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khertan_Morning09:44
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yaccRST38h, beg pardon, I'm no problem :-P09:51
yaccAnyone got an idea how much traffic skype might be producing?09:51
Surfadepends09:52
Surfatypically not much09:52
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DocScrutinizer51haha09:54
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CableTwitchMorning :O)10:00
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Termanagood morning10:03
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crashanddiesup #maemo10:26
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MohammadAGmorning crashanddie10:29
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psycho_oreoshi crashanddie10:34
Pillumdoes psfreedom work with powerkernelv46?10:34
Pillumheard, it isnt working because of usb host mode10:34
khertan_Morning crashanddie10:34
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* khertan_ is really surprize by his old amd64 3200+ which is currently oc at 3.2Ghz : with only aircooling 55°C ... really good10:36
CableTwitchWhat heatsink, stock?10:37
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PillumMohammadAG: ?10:38
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MohammadAGdoes fcam work with stock 1.3 kernel?10:46
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JaffaMorning, all10:48
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PillumMohammadAG: yes it does10:49
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MohammadAGPillum, so the problem's with kernel-power, ty10:49
* MohammadAG looks at sources10:49
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psycho_oreosthere's a huge thread for it MohammadAG10:49
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psycho_oreoshang on lemme find it10:50
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psycho_oreosMohammadAG, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=58899&page=410:51
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sjkhow would i edit maemos dictionary (used when texting etc)? there are  a couple of strange entries in it10:59
jacekowskithat's probably user dictionary10:59
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sjkwhere can I find it?11:01
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DocScrutinizer51theres an app for that11:04
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CableTwitchYou know, you can measure the latency between replies in coversations here in days, sometimes... XD11:08
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phellarvCableTwitch: sssshhhh - We're busy doing nothing.11:09
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CableTwitchSo I noticed.11:10
CableTwitch(Please read the above in about an hours time)11:10
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Pillumlol11:12
sjkoh11:13
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Pillumwhat?11:15
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DocScrutinizer51better silence here than another idiot spam on tmo in one thread from one moron every 3 minutes11:21
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CableTwitchI dunno. I like people talking about stuff in here. I might learn things now and then :O)11:22
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yaccWonder if anyone has measured how much skype in idle mode uses bandwidth?11:23
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yaccCableTwitch, latency of days can be quite normal on some irc channels. It's enough that the core members are all concentrated in one time zone, and during their night you won't get much of an answer.11:26
crashanddiestudy how long did it take you to as yoda speak?11:26
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Pillum@yacc bandwidth of skype is never constant11:30
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Pillumcause some things on skype are p2p11:32
Pillumlike chatting11:32
Pillumso11:32
Pillumits probable that your skype app will redirect other ones' messages11:32
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PillumMohammadAG: ?11:37
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Pillumsomeone here with powerv42 and not working camera?11:58
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TermanaIt did take me very long at all to learn how to speak like yoda crashanddie not.  Herh herh herh.11:58
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Pillumhttp://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=883645&postcount=41012:03
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chem|stpong12:18
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chem|stDocScrutinizer51: pong12:18
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Pillumping12:19
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chem|stpong12:20
CableTwitchTwang12:20
PillumMARCOO!!!12:20
BCMM_how can i restart PA?12:20
PillumPA?12:21
FauxFauxPule.12:21
FauxFauxs12:21
CableTwitchPenny Arcade? Click on the button that takes you to the first comic.12:21
PillumPennsylvania?12:21
crashanddiepulseaudio is what he is talking about12:21
BCMM_pulseaudio12:21
crashanddienot stop being trolls12:21
chem|stBCMM_: pactl?12:22
BCMM_also, it's stupid, but i thing my sound probs. start when i boot up with the wallcharger plugged in12:22
CableTwitchTrolling is winding people up, not making silly comments ;O)12:22
chem|stBCMM_: killing it helps too as it should be on autostart12:22
BCMM_thanks12:22
Pillumpulseaudio -k; pulseaudio -D12:22
chem|st^^12:23
Pillum:O12:23
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BCMM_uh, what is the daemon usually called?12:23
chem|stBCMM_: having stuff plugged in while booting seems to be a problem in some cases12:23
Pillumpulseaudio i think12:23
chem|stpulseaudio12:23
BCMM_cause i'm not sure it's running12:23
Pillumpulseaudio --check12:24
BCMM_Pillum: as root?12:24
Pillumduno12:24
chem|stBCMM_: no as pulse12:24
Pillum--check12:24
Pillum    Return 0 as return code when the PulseAudio daemon is already running for the calling user.12:24
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Pillumso pulseaudio --check; echo $?12:25
BCMM_chem|st: it runs as user pulse?12:25
chem|stBCMM_: ps fax shows me a usr/bin/pulseaudio running as pulse12:25
chem|stBCMM_: yes12:25
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BCMM_chem|st: bb's ps ignores parameters12:26
chem|stBCMM_: then top12:26
chem|stor htop12:26
chem|stwell then ps|grep pulse12:27
BCMM_when i'm the user pulse, it doesn't execute 'pulseaudio'12:27
BCMM_no perms12:27
chem|styou do not become pulse ... what for?12:27
chem|stjust kill the bastard and start any playback12:28
BCMM_chem|st: you sais i should run it as pulse...12:28
chem|stit runs as pulse automagically12:28
BCMM_chem|st: i can't kill it because it isn't running12:28
Pillumthen just start it again :D12:29
chem|stBCMM_: playback should make it start12:29
BCMM_it doesn't12:29
chem|stmmh12:29
BCMM_no audio anywhere12:29
Pillumthen do pulseaudio -D ?12:29
chem|stBCMM_: start it as user12:29
chem|st^^12:29
chem|stdaemoned12:29
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BCMM_i've tried making calls, using mediaplayer, mplayer, aplay, listening for the little window close noise and so on12:30
BCMM_nothing12:30
chem|stweird as it should be on autostart...12:30
PillumBCMM_: already started it via command line?12:30
BCMM_also, volume keys don't pop up the osd12:30
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Pillumthen just reboot .D12:30
Pillum:D12:30
BCMM_Pillum: doesn't fix it. taking battery out does...12:30
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BCMM_also, this keeps hapenning12:31
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chem|stBCMM_: then something is hanging up the hardware12:32
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WhiteWidowinstalled custom pulse audio packages?12:33
BCMM_doing pulseaudio --system as root fixed it12:33
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BCMM_this is odd...12:33
chem|stok just trying like I would do on my desktop12:33
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BCMM_i'm going to reboot and see what happens12:34
chem|stthis is fscking crazy what nokia did to maemo12:34
CableTwitch?12:34
BCMM_i recently installed a custom fmtxd and fmtx kernel mod, could that do this?12:34
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BCMMwell, this just gets weirder12:37
RobbieThe1st?12:38
BCMMrunning pulesaudio --system from the command line fixed it, as in it was still fixed after reboot12:38
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BCMMnormally, i need to take the battery out to fix that...12:38
RobbieThe1stInteresting12:38
BCMMas far as i have observed so far: after i boot it once with the wall charger plugged in, this happens every boot until i either take hte battery out or run pulseaudio --system12:39
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BCMMdoes that make any sense at all to anyone?12:39
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BCMMah, this time a regular reboot fixed it12:40
BCMMso i don't know now12:40
BCMMi'm still pretty much sure it happens every time i boot up with the charger connected though, which is annoying12:40
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yaccPillum, yeah, but the moment I've changed from my G1 to the N900, my data usage has gone up by around 900MB. Before it was seldom over 100MB mobile data, now it's over 1GB month by month. And while the browser is better, so I surf more, it's mostly text-oriented stuff that would work fine in lynx, ...12:58
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yaccPillum, the only thing that I've got "more" on the N900 is Skype, ...12:59
yaccActually the N900 is nicer because it manages to reliably connect my WLAN here, and while working it routes through USB, so it should have a bit of less mobile traffic.13:00
chem|styacc: and automatic software update calling down 5-25MB everytime you login (depends on active repos)13:00
yaccchem|st, login?13:00
chem|stconnect to 3G internet13:00
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yaccchem|st, I don't use the normal GUI, I prefer to do all my package management via apt.13:01
chem|styacc: "automatically"13:01
chem|styacc: not "userset"13:01
yaccchem|st, every time I connect to 3G internet? How do I disable that? Without removing the sources in /etc/apt?13:01
yaccI don't need any automatic apt-get update calls.13:02
yaccchem|st, OTOH, I use it mostly in 2G mode, to save battery.13:02
chem|styacc: anytime you connect to the internet once a day afair (does not matter if 2G 3G or wifi)13:02
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chem|styacc: gconftool -s –type=int /apps/hildon/update-notifier/check_interval 6000013:03
yaccWell, 2G with 4KB/s max download does not manage more than 15MB/hour.13:03
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chem|styacc: the 60000 are minutes, there is no way to turn it off I know about13:03
PrimeZAnyone got n900?13:03
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chem|stPrimeZ: nope noone in here got anything like that... wht was the question again?13:04
yaccchem|st, yeah I figured that 1440 looks like 24h expressed as minutes ;)13:04
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chem|styacc: exactly13:04
chem|styacc: it is weird enough that it is minutes but not having an OFF key13:05
chem|stPrimeZ: what are you after?13:05
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chem|styacc: and back in PR1.1.1 the delete button key value for mediaplayer was false...13:06
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yaccchem|st, Yeah we all use other maemo mobiles, that's why the channel is #maemo and not #n900 :-P13:07
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chem|styacc: sure but it is obvious that the amount of n900 owners in here is >0 just from nicknames13:08
PrimeZchem|st: the n900 call volume is too low. Trying to see if there's a fix to it.13:09
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PrimeZOr yet it seems another nokia failure13:09
yaccchem|st, Well, the amount of non-n900 users here is probably not that high.13:09
BCMMhmm seems OK to me13:09
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chem|stPrimeZ: it is only the gsm call volume and that highly depends on your network and the other end13:10
BCMM(the call volume)13:10
PrimeZboth the call volume AND when activating the call speaker, which is nowhere near the ringtone volume.13:10
PrimeZchem|st: I have another nokia phone here with an incredible volume on both.13:10
chem|stPrimeZ: is the volume low in skype/sip/jabber or any other calling software13:11
PrimeZanywhere13:11
PrimeZskype/regular phone calls etc13:11
PrimeZthe 6131 i got here volumes are awesome13:12
chem|stmmh check your volumes in x-terminal13:12
PrimeZI guess its a hardware issue13:12
PrimeZchem|st: how?13:12
chem|stalsamixer for one13:12
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PrimeZhm13:12
PrimeZchecking13:12
chem|stpress TAB until you see all controls13:13
chem|stput them to 100%13:13
PrimeZnice13:13
PrimeZbut they are at 10013:13
PrimeZ:)13:13
chem|stPrimeZ: yeah that is expected13:14
PrimeZshit, now after googled, i guess its game over13:14
PrimeZ:p13:14
PrimeZeveryone complains about it13:14
PrimeZcoplainED13:14
PrimeZold threads13:15
chem|stPrimeZ: not exactly, I have only issues with gsm and that depends on the other end as well as on which network I am calling to13:15
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PrimeZlol i see people disassmble the n900 to increase the volume, omfg13:18
PrimeZtaking open source to the hardware levels13:19
PrimeZ:D13:19
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MohammadAGsigh Nov 26 13:13:03 Nokia-N900 init: pulseaudio main process (1104) terminated with status 12713:21
MohammadAGis there any way to debug that shit?13:21
lollooI get buzzing sounds when calling, do you think it's hardware or software?13:21
chem|stMohammadAG: not that I know13:21
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chem|stMohammadAG: do you knwo how to get some sink info out of pulse?13:22
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MohammadAGnope lol13:22
chem|stMohammadAG: it is so damn hard to figure things out with all these stripped tools13:23
chem|ston a desktop the user in group pulse is able to configure, on maemo I get for most control stuff "no pulse running" reply13:24
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yaccWorse, anyone got an idea why my n900 does not ring (phone, alarm clock, calendar alerts), but it beeps fine on IM messages (and last time I checked played fine music)?13:28
chem|sthttp://www.pulseaudio.org/wiki/WhatIsWrongWithSystemMode13:29
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chem|stjust checked it is not normal to have it as gloabl service and I do not have it on my desktop that way, the pulse group is just to be abel to start pulse I guess13:31
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chem|st"much higher memory usage and CPU load in system mode"13:31
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yaccchem|st, yeah, I wondered about that too. CPU okay, it seems fast enough, but memory? On a memory starved device like the n900?13:33
chem|stwould be interesting how that compares to a proper usersetup with pulse13:33
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chem|styacc: that system mode is for embedded systems or thin clients where no real local user exists13:34
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yaccchem|st, well, we do have one "proper" (or not, don't get philosophical about that) user, Mr. "user" ;)13:35
yaccwonder what would happen if I rename the user and move the $HOME, ...13:35
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BCMMmaybe they said "fsck security", and patched it so it didn't disable shared memory?13:37
BCMMi don't know whether that's better or worse than saying "fsck performance" on an embedded device13:37
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kerioyou should say "fuck those morons, let's have performance *and* security"13:40
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chem|stBCMM: both security measures are off by default13:41
chem|stpulse gives a warning that they arent set when starting on CLI13:41
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BCMMchem|st: not sure i understand - PA website says they are forced disabled in system mode13:42
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* alterego yawns13:46
chem|stBCMM: and nokia managed to enable to have an easy access to pull things around wether being root user or anyone else13:46
BCMMnow i really don't understand...13:47
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chem|stBCMM: module loading should be disallowed or even forced to be disabled but it isn't on my n900 so nokia people managed to enable stuff which used to be disabled (forced or not)13:51
chem|stbut they did not remove the check part for it so pulse complains about those active modules on startup13:51
alteregoPart of the open platform that is maemo :P13:51
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BCMMah, so they broke pulseaudio's security a bit13:53
BCMMwithout removing the warnings?13:53
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chem|stat least it looks alike13:56
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dazoAnyone had issues with Media Player not finding songs after flashing to PR-1.3? ... I have quite a collection of songs, in mp3, mp4 and ogg ... it worked very fine before, but after flashing and installing OGG support again, none of my songs are found any more - only the "demo songs" and songs on my SD card14:02
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chem|stMohammadAG: do you know where the actual volume values are stored?14:09
MohammadAGchem|st, you can get them with dbus i think14:09
chem|stMohammadAG: and set them with dbus I guess14:10
MohammadAGi know how to set them  :P14:10
MohammadAGsec14:10
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alteregoHrm, how can I detect when my app is switched into background?14:10
chem|stMohammadAG: I'd like to read all volumes14:11
MohammadAGdbus-send --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.mafw.renderer.Mafw-Gst-Renderer-Plugin.gstrenderer /com/nokia/mafw/renderer/gstrenderer com.nokia.mafw.extension.set_extension_property string:volume variant:uint32:10014:11
MohammadAGfor 10014:11
chem|stMohammadAG: thats percent then14:11
chem|stMohammadAG: and gstr, I am looking for the sink volumes of pulse14:11
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chem|stMohammadAG: as it seems that they are not set to a proper value14:12
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PrimeZ yacc: replace it with a real phone14:13
PrimeZ:D14:13
PrimeZteh iphone 414:13
MohammadAGalterego, isn't a dbus signal sent?14:13
PrimeZthats my the conclusion i reached 1 hour ago14:13
PrimeZ:p14:13
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alteregoMohammadAG: don't know.14:14
PrimeZsince 3g, nokia has been an epic failure, and now with the touch.14:14
blackthornewhat is the required apt-get repository for zip/unzip tools?14:14
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yaccPrimeZ, well, actually I'm quite happy, you can see how critical phone communication is to me by the fact that I've ignored this little fault for over a week without trying to figure it out ;)14:15
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chem|stPrimeZ: iphone is not a good phone; however, it is a good dog leash14:17
PrimeZwell i thought the nokia was good14:17
PrimeZuntill i saw my friend iphone 414:17
PrimeZwhich does everything the n900 can, but better14:17
PrimeZfar better14:17
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yaccPrimeZ, the N900 is clearly way nearer to my idea of a perfect phone than more "normal" phones where I have first to root them or jailbrake them to own them, which I understand as my right as I've been buying fullprice phones for years now.14:17
PrimeZdid u see the gps on google map? fast and super clean user experience.14:17
PrimeZthe ui is amazing.14:17
PrimeZyacc: apple brought jailbreak on themselves, either way, after a small modification, the iphone is clearly far superior to the n90014:18
yaccPrimeZ, and an iPhone is not even a contender as I need to switch SIMs between different countries.14:18
blackthornePrimeZ: I really like the iPhone 4 but no, it doesn't everything the n900 can14:18
BCMMPrimeZ: it can not do everything the n900 can do.14:18
PrimeZorly?14:18
BCMMPrimeZ: for example, it won't run stuff i wrote.14:18
blackthorneBCMM: you can, though14:18
BCMM(without occasionally bricking during a routing update)14:19
BCMMand i like programming!14:19
blackthornePrimeZ: you can't do this: python14:19
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yaccPrimeZ, the jailbroken iPhone of my wife for example does not to tethering. The N900 does tethering in practically all thinkable setups.14:19
PrimeZBCMM: you see this specific trait of the n900 is for an ultra low % of people that actually wanna run thier own apps.14:19
BCMMPrimeZ: well, that's not everything14:19
chem|stPrimeZ: you just got marked as apple fanboy, and as long as iphone is more a style gadget than a useful item it will be for guys without balls only14:19
BCMMPrimeZ: the iphone is not for geeks14:19
blackthornePrimeZ: flash, you don't run flash better in your iPhone 414:19
BCMMthis channel is probably primarily geeks, and i think you are intentionally trolling them14:19
blackthornePrimeZ: flash is not such a geeky thing...14:20
BCMMfcam is pretty cool as well14:20
chem|stPrimeZ: export your iphones gps as BT serial device?!14:20
BCMMcan you do that sort of low-level camera control on an iphone?14:20
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BCMMthe main thing the iphone is missing is something like "cool stuff it wasn't designed for"14:20
BCMMit's hard to hack.14:20
yaccPrimeZ, and I don't think that the iPhone can compete on the browser front either, considering that it cannot do flash at all, I think 10 of the top 10 brands in the US have a website that is not viewable by an iPhone ;)14:21
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Choom1[6~14:22
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PrimeZI dont consider myself a super geek, but im working as a java programmer14:23
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PrimeZbut i dont see myself going into the x terminal with my n900 too often14:23
chem|stmost iphone friends I have live at facebook and are easy target for identity theft ;)14:23
blackthornePrimeZ: you can't replace your iphone's battery14:23
PrimeZblackthorne: yea that i know, but there are those 3rd world stores that can do it :)14:24
BCMMPrimeZ: iphone can't port scan wireless networks14:24
yaccPrimeZ, nor does the iPhone tuxpaint, which made my N900 quite popular with my daughter, but then my daughter has loved tuxpaint since being a toddler.14:24
BCMM(talking of the terminal)14:24
blackthorneI mean, you can't carry 2 batteries with you14:24
chem|stPrimeZ: then it is the wrong phone for you...14:24
chem|stPrimeZ: wanna sell yours?14:24
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PrimeZchem|st: im looking for an iphone14:24
PrimeZbut cant find a proper price for it14:24
chem|stblackthorne: there are mobile chargers14:24
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blackthornePrimeZ: the things they in common, iPhone 4 tends to be better from the user perspective but there are a lot of things beyond that the iPhone 4 can't even do14:24
PrimeZsince i live in a half third world country14:25
PrimeZ:D14:25
PrimeZIf I lived in the US i had most certainly get the iphone14:25
PrimeZsince its only like 500$14:25
chem|stPrimeZ: 950eur iP4 32GB?!14:25
PrimeZthe UI is unmatched14:25
blackthornechem|st: chargers? you mean those solar toys?14:25
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yaccPrimeZ, and hint, the iPhone does use up battery as any other smartphone when you "power-use" it.14:25
BCMMPrimeZ: hang on, where is half third world, but isn't the US?14:25
PrimeZisrael14:25
PrimeZ:P14:25
chem|stblackthorne: no mobile batteries14:25
PrimeZat the moment14:25
chem|styacc: dead in 3.5h14:26
BCMMi would call the n900 a computer14:26
BCMMi would not say the same for an iphone14:26
PrimeZit is14:26
yaccPrimeZ, so one of the critical items on my checklist is not even feasible is "having an external charger that can charge the 2nd (or 3rd) battery pack without the phone".14:26
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blackthornechem|st: well yes, it's not as good considering the volume and the price. Other thing, you may have to throw away your ipod/iphone if the battery dies not as easy as replacing a battery in the n90014:27
BCMMthe iphone is a better fit for you than the n900 if the iphone is a better fit for you than a full computer14:27
chem|stblackthorne: true, didn't throw on that ;)14:27
chem|stBCMM: wrong way around14:27
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chem|stif the iphone is a good gadget for you the n900 is the wrong to even look at14:28
yaccPrimeZ, then the lack of a physical keyboard, which is important to me. But the closed-ness of the iOS ecosystem is a show stopper. I will not let Mr. Jobs dictate what I can do on a phone that I bought.14:28
BCMMwhat i meant was that the iphone is an easy but somewhat limited experience. you'll prefer it to an n900 if you also prefer it to using a proper computer14:28
chem|stthe only thing I am missin here is a magnetic-compass14:29
BCMMyeah14:29
BCMMthere is that14:29
yaccPrimeZ, can the iPhone access the internet via USB? Can I remote control it from the PC via VNC?14:29
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chem|styacc: we can stop now...14:29
BCMM(does hostmode work well enough for us to troll iphone users with it yet?)14:30
chem|stthis discussion is pointless14:30
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chem|stBCMM: yes14:30
BCMMhave you seen the compass in gpxview?14:30
yaccBCMM, with the power user kernel I think so.14:30
Termanayacc, ACTUALLY it can14:30
BCMMnice workaround for lack of a magnetic compas14:30
yaccTermana, ?14:30
BCMMit shows you a compass with north, your target, and the position of the sun on it14:30
TermanaMaybe you should actually think about what your saying before trying to be a smart arse and talk like an idiot14:30
chem|stBCMM: very good at night on a boat where your gps just died14:31
TermanaThe iPhone can access internet over USB and you can control it with a PC with VNC14:31
BCMMheh14:31
TermanaI'll admit, you need to jailbreak to gain this functionality14:31
TermanaBut it is there14:31
BCMMchem|st: not sure what you mean about the gps dieing, the n900 has gps14:31
chem|stBCMM: the on-boat one14:32
yaccTermana, the USB thing might be feasible, but then it uses non-standard protocols for USB, so I cannot even USB-tether it with my Linux laptop. And Linux is where I earn my money.14:32
BCMMoh ok14:32
BCMMboat is a perfect example of where you don't need a magnetic compass, since you are in constant forwards motion14:32
chem|stBCMM: actually no14:32
RST38h114:32
BCMMoh, currents could cause you to move sideways, yeah14:32
yaccTermana, and jailbreaking phones are so compatible with itunes and small kids that are Windows-trained and press "yes" or "ok" on every dialog without thinking.14:32
chem|stI am at a mooring and turning slightly I quickly need the direction for land as it is dark as hell... just one use case14:33
BCMMbut at any rate, in a boat that's actually moving, you will be able to see the vector you are following, and correct it14:33
chem|stmovement is less then 5m per minut14:33
yaccTermana, my wife loved that one, because I made her jailbreak her phone herself, OTOH, she survived for almost 2 weeks without a mobile before managing that feat ;)14:33
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BCMMchem|st: yeah, a magnetic compass is useful really14:33
chem|stindeed14:34
Termanayacc, I'm not even sure what you just tried to say, it makes no grammatical sense14:34
TermanaRST38h, 214:34
chem|stTermana: jailbrake does not count as you may put another OS on it if capable of the coding14:35
yaccTermana, jailbreaking an iPhone is a way more stressy procedure than installing openssh-server via the Application Manager app.14:35
yaccTermana, there are people that managed to put Android on a iPhone, so what? It's still first playing cat and mice with the manufacturer.14:35
yaccTermana, that's not a way to treat me as a customer.14:35
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BCMMyeah, i don't think anything that will make the manufacturer attempt to brick your device can be used when arguing for your device's usefullness14:36
yaccTermana, well, when my wife's iPhone was un-jailbroken by iTunes because our daughter was at the PC, I refused to jailbreak it for her, and she had to google herself through seedy sites to jailbreak it.14:37
Termanayacc, well, I've done two iPod Touches I have laying around (somewhere), and it didn't really seem "stressy". I plugged them in and hit a button, waited for it to finish and reboot.14:37
Termanayacc, right that makes more sense.14:37
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chem|stTermana: the point is that you need to jailbrake it to have some use of it14:37
Termanayacc, In regards to the lock down, you realise even Nokia will be doing this in the future?14:37
yaccTermana, not really my observation, my wife lived without a mobile for over a week till she managed to find her way ;)14:37
yaccTermana, how so? They had the first smartphones? I could program my old Nokia E61 with Python.14:38
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chem|stand nokia will use meego in the future now tell how that will lock down devices (I am really curious!)14:39
Termanayacc, locked down as in, you change your kernel you won't access data, certain apps etc.14:39
yaccTermana, well, they might, they probably will do it for some of their phones. But the others are doing things to make it extra hard on their customers today.14:39
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SpeedEvilBeing able to run your own programs on it is not quite the same as not bein glocked down.14:39
Termanachem|st, that's a silly thing to say. Android is open as well, but Android phones are locked down.14:40
yaccTermana, You mean like certain Motorola Androids that brick themselves in hardware when you do one thing wrong during "rooting" them?14:40
Termana(most) Android phones*14:40
Termanayacc, yes and then looks at some techniques other manufactures are using14:40
TermanaNAND lock14:40
TermanaWiping NAND caches14:40
Termanalook*14:41
chem|stok that is another class for itself14:41
CorsacTermana: there's a large chance that meego phones will be locked as well14:41
yaccTermana, Well, my G1 was not locked down, and I would not accept a locked down phone. Funny not even my wife finds a locked phone acceptable after enjoying Apple's take on customer friendliness.14:41
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TermanaCorsac, <Termana> yacc, In regards to the lock down, you realise even Nokia will be doing this in the future?14:41
chem|stwell I got my n900 and as long there is hardware there will be someone to code for it ;)14:41
CorsacTermana: do we have confirmation that Nokia will do it?14:41
TermanaCorsac, Nokia said they will if carriers ask them to14:42
Corsacok14:42
TermanaConfirmation for the Harmattan device at least - beyond that, who knows I suppose14:42
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CorsacI'm not really sure what harmattan means nowadays anyway :)14:42
Termanayacc, unless you got a Developer's Phone direct from Google, your G1 WAS locked down14:43
yaccTermana, basically a closed toy-device cannot compete with a serious work phone, which in my case means that I can tether through it in less than 1h after unpacking it. (that's the roaming freelancer in me, that's a hard requirement).14:43
yaccTermana, well, yes it was locked down but after unlocking it once, I was never bothered again by iTunes trying to break it for me.14:43
DocScrutinizerchem|st:  could you move a few posts?14:44
Termanayacc, iTunes would have updated the iPhone. If you had done an OTA update for the G1 it would break it as well14:44
yaccTermana, and I could have gotten an ADP1 as easily it would have been just more expensive.14:44
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yaccTermana, but yes, nobody tries to force an update on me. iTunes has a tendency to ask nicely for that. And if you plug it in to a 3rd party PC with installed itunes, ...14:45
chem|stDocScrutinizer: sure14:47
blackthornehow do I add the extras-testing repository ?14:47
Termanayacc, right, plugging the iPhone into another person's computer is not a good idea - that's a problem. Problems are good to identify and point out to show advantages of one thing over another, but talking about something untruthfully doesn't.14:47
BCMMwhat happens if you do?14:47
TermanaBCMM, AFAIK an iPhone can only sync with one computer14:47
Termanaso it will delete all your music, possibly apps and sync to that person's music etc.14:48
chem|stblackthorne: same as extras but with -testing in the web address14:48
BCMMwhat does sync mean? does that mean you can't just use it as mass storage?14:48
yaccTermana, basically an iPhone is not relevant because it does not allow by default to put any SIM into it. It does not allow tethering by default. The whole jailbreaking experience is fragile, e.g. some versions of the jailbreak rely on the PC to do it every time it starts. Fun if you run out of battery traveling, ...14:48
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yaccTermana, well, I had my VNC setup on my n900 on day 1. I've never read or seen a VNC setup for an iPhone.14:49
TermanaBCMM, you could if you killed the iTunes daemon I suppose. iTunes runs a daemon in the background to detect iPhones, and automatically starts when you plug one in14:49
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Termanayacc, your first point is US based only. I can get an off-contract iPhone here in Australia that will work with any carrier here.14:50
yaccTermana, plus there is always that funny problem, that Apple seems to have no working download links for Linux iTunes :)14:50
Termanayacc, but I know VNC works14:50
yaccTermana, you cannot get it in Austria.14:50
TermanaAustraLIA14:50
yaccTermana, you cannot get it without a special iPhone plan in Austria to be exactly.14:50
yaccTermana, Austria != Australia, I know.14:50
Termanayacc, oh I see, your in Austria? sorry :p14:51
TermanaTripped me up for a second there14:51
chem|stTermana: don't tell you do not know the "No Kangaroos in Austria" flaw at G20...14:51
yaccTermana, but again, an iPhone seems to need iTunes to activate at all. No Linux iTunes, so it's not feasable for to use it. Simple?14:51
Termanayacc, in regards to iTunes for Linux - I think Apple would probably rather ignore Linux because they would see it as a potential threat14:52
yaccTermana, yeah I know, it was funny 20 years ago when some US border guards in North Dakota of all places kept us for hours because they mistook our Austrian passports for badly forged Australian ones.14:52
yaccTermana, yeah, so basically iPhones are not being offered to me.14:52
Termanachem|st, I didn't until now :p14:53
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chem|stTermana: http://202.58.40.60/elements/img/article/638x359/skynews_537774.jpg14:53
yaccTermana, I can easily use an Android as a Linux user. The n900 shines in that role. Emporer Jobs dictates to me which OS I should use to do my work?14:53
chem|stTermana: they put up figures of all prime ministers with a stereo type clothing and put the australian one in a red white austria "tracht"14:54
Termanachem|st, heh :p14:54
crashanddiedon't feed the troll14:55
crashanddieyacc, take your trash outside14:55
yaccTermana, btw, Nokia S60 works perfectly with Linux too.14:55
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Termanachem|st, I didn't think our international communications were that bad :p14:55
nidOtbh s60 works well at pretty much everything except being pretty14:55
DocScrutinizerohhh, Friday?14:58
nidOindeed, day off \o/14:58
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yaccTermana, it's like comparing buying and owning a car (where you can do everything that is legal with your property) versus renting a car or carsharing (where you are basically only a tenant and your landlord decides many things that can be done or not done).14:58
blackthornemy friend the acquired an n900 two days ago14:59
blackthornealready screwed it up14:59
blackthornewith the kernel extras package, I think14:59
blackthornethe new SMS message opened prepopulated with "random" data15:00
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blackthorneother than that15:00
ShadowJKwhy the hell are newbies installing extra kernel packages15:00
blackthornehe restored factory defaults15:01
blackthorneand then... brick15:01
blackthorneturns on the device, sees the Nokia logo15:01
blackthornejust that15:01
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yaccblackthorne, well, than he needs to reflash it.15:03
blackthornethat's what I told him15:03
blackthornethough I am newbie too15:03
blackthornejust have it for one day15:03
blackthornestill looking for zip/unzip tools and a decent twitter client for this15:05
crashanddieblackthorne, khweeteur works15:08
MohammadAGFCam Error: V4L2Sensor: Error opening /dev/video0: Device or resource busy15:09
MohammadAGdoes anyone know what that means?15:09
javispedroebusy :)15:09
MohammadAGobviously :P15:10
MohammadAGit works fine on my device, but not on a friend's15:10
javispedrocamera app open?15:10
DocScrutinizerdamn, my spyware didn't free the frontcam15:10
javispedrouse fuser or lsof to check15:10
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pebHi folks ..15:13
DocScrutinizerlo15:14
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blackthornecrashanddie: lists support ? dual account?15:17
crashanddiesorry?15:17
blackthornekhweeteur15:18
crashanddieno idae15:18
blackthornemaybe it's going to be my first n900 project15:18
blackthornea decent twitter client15:19
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DocScrutinizerwhat's thp's taskswitcher patch?15:23
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thpDocScrutinizer: the hildon-desktop patch for having bigger thumbnails in the switcher?15:30
thphttp://thp.io/2010/maemo/hd-single_column_layout.png15:30
DocScrutinizermhm15:30
thpyou'll find the patches at http://thp.io/2010/maemo/15:31
thp(the "big-task-switcher" one)15:31
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DocScrutinizerthanks15:32
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yaccAny idea how came that the settings app cannot access audio, despite that pulse is running fine?15:34
DocScrutinizererrr15:35
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DocScrutinizerwhy should settings app access audio?15:35
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yaccCan anyone with a working sound do a ls -l /proc/*/fd/* | grep /dev/snd and privmsg it to me?15:37
yaccDocScrutinizer: Well I try to set a different ring tone, ...15:38
yaccDocScrutinizer: Actually I'm interested to figure out why my phone does not ring, while not on silent profile, and with a volume set that should be hearable.15:38
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DocScrutinizerI'd guess one of your extras-devel pkgs is acting up15:39
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DocScrutinizerlrwx------ 1 root      root      64 2010-11-26 14:39 /proc/760/fd/3 -> /dev/snd/controlC015:40
DocScrutinizerlrwx------ 1 pulse     pulse     64 2010-11-26 14:39 /proc/798/fd/18 -> /dev/snd/controlC015:40
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yaccDocScrutinizer: let me guess ps | grep 760 gives you some alsa named process, and 798 is pulseaudio15:41
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DocScrutinizerlrn2ask :-P15:42
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# lsof /dev/snd/controlC015:43
DocScrutinizerCOMMAND   PID  USER   FD   TYPE DEVICE SIZE NODE NAME15:43
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DocScrutinizeralsaped   760  root    3u   CHR  116,0      1742 /dev/snd/controlC015:43
DocScrutinizerpulseaudi 798 pulse   18u   CHR  116,0      1742 /dev/snd/controlC015:43
MohammadAGyacc, pulseaudio not started?15:44
MohammadAGit's fucking annoying me15:44
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yaccMohammadAG, it's started but even mediaplayer refuses to play anything.15:44
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, what kernel are you on?15:44
yaccActually it beeps that it cannot do it.15:44
DocScrutinizerpr1.2 stock15:44
MohammadAGI'm thinking kernel-power's causing problems with pulseaudio15:44
yaccMohammadAG, I'm on stock kernel too.15:44
yaccLinux Nokia-N900-51-1 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Fri Aug 6 11:50:00 EEST 2010 armv7l unknown15:45
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alteregoMohammadAG: fixed columbus to suspened UI updates when in background or screen locked now, so your battery issue shouldn't be a problem anymore ;)15:45
alteregoMohammadAG: fancy being one of my beta testers next week?15:46
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DocScrutinizeralterego: \o/15:46
yaccIs there one process that I can kill so that the whole user interface restarts?15:46
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DocScrutinizerhildon-desktop?15:47
MohammadAGalterego, yay, sure :)15:47
MohammadAGnope15:47
MohammadAGyou need to killall hildon*15:47
DocScrutinizerduh15:47
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alteregoDocScrutinizer: I'll put you on the list too ;)15:48
DocScrutinizerfeel tempted to google hildon15:48
alteregoI've got three people, should probably be enough.15:48
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alterego4 inc me.15:48
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lcukalterego, open source, open testing?15:49
alteregoclosed source, closed testing :P15:49
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alteregoBut I like you, and you've been benificial, so you can be a tester too if you like ;)15:51
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yaccDocScrutinizer: could you do again a ps for me? Is it normal to have two hildon-status-menu, hildon-home and hildon-desktop running?15:59
yaccGuess so, the pids are always N and N+1, so I guess all these do internally fork.16:00
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DocScrutinizeryes16:02
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yaccSo control-panel still says it cannot play because something else is using the device, ...16:03
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Shapeshifterman it's annoying that people always put their guides in some random forum thread instead of editing the wiki...16:04
Shapeshifterthis is a problem so specific to the maemo 'community'.16:05
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* MohammadAG opens thread about pulseaudio on tmo, expects no replies16:06
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MohammadAGShapeshifter, indeed16:09
BCMMShapeshifter: yeah, i was surprised by how much it seems to revolve around the forum16:11
DocScrutinizeryacc: I guess you rebooted?16:12
BCMMwhen every other project i pay attention to has something like an IRC channel, a wiki, and a bugzilla16:12
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DocScrutinizerBCMM: wiki and IRC are not exactly troll compatible16:14
BCMMdo you mean aren't troll-proof, or aren't good for trolling?16:14
DocScrutinizerbugzilla in fact kinda is, but there's a harsh moderation :-P16:14
yaccDocScrutinizer: nope, but now I'm completely baffled because the phone app can access the sound devices to make a call.16:15
DocScrutinizerI mean trolls don't like them16:15
DocScrutinizeryacc: praise PA16:15
yaccIn "unsupported" system-mode ;)16:15
yaccSo Nokia took that on them to support themselves, but yes, PA is usually a PITA.16:16
DocScrutinizerI get lags of up to WEEKS(!!) for desktop event sounds, on my PA enabled laptop16:16
yaccWEEKS?16:16
BCMMDocScrutinizer: what?16:17
BCMMyou mean it actually plays a sound several weeks later?16:17
DocScrutinizernot several but more than 7 days sometimes, yes16:17
yaccDocScrutinizer: wow16:17
yaccDocScrutinizer: Although when I send a SMS once to a collegue in Australia, he got it 2 weeks later too. (And came online in emergency mode because the SMS alerted him to the fact that the production servers are down. Well had been down two weeks earlier).16:19
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DocScrutinizerhehe16:19
alteregoHeh16:19
DocScrutinizeryeah, there's no guaranteed time to delivery for SMS16:20
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DocScrutinizerthere's just a timeOUT you can set for SMS16:20
DocScrutinizerSMS never meant to be a realtime thing, just like mail16:21
yaccDocScrutinizer: yeah, although there is a "timeout" functionality, where you can set how long delivery trials should be done. OTOH, most modern phones do not know how to set this property.16:21
DocScrutinizer:nod: :-/16:22
alteregoBloody apt-worker ruining my development.16:22
DocScrutinizereh?16:22
DocScrutinizeris it rewriting your code?16:22
alteregoNo, stops me installing my packages.16:23
DocScrutinizer:-P16:23
DocScrutinizerheuristic QA16:23
DocScrutinizerdoes it install a "****" icon instead?16:24
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* DocScrutinizer ponders a patch to HAM that replaces random installs by installing a ">>BEEP<<" pkg instead :-D16:26
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DocScrutinizerduh, and my paperweight app for OVI needs some work :-D16:29
* DocScrutinizer feeling so Friday. Any other BS to invent?16:30
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alteregoHeh16:32
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DocScrutinizermaybe a server with a blacklist holding (user, regex) tuples, for HAM to look up for user names that aren't allowed to install packages matching regex. Mad usefull to deal with tmo lemmings16:32
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BCMMhehe16:32
alteregoWhere does HAM get usernames from though? :P16:32
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DocScrutinizerthat's the trick16:33
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chem|stmaehehhe I think I am in need of some new soldering coil for smd... one volume button does not work not even after proper cleaning16:33
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DocScrutinizermessaging, mail, a few other config data to skim16:33
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CableTwitchYou knackered your volume rocker?16:34
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alteregoI should probably come up with a better way to store GPS telemetry ..16:34
chem|stCableTwitch: 0.5L wheat-beer-coke mix direct hit16:34
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CableTwitchWow. Are you competing with MohammadAG to see who can wreck their device fastest? ;O)16:35
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CableTwitch(I'm winning, btw... I'll be on my 3rd when it gets back from the Nokia Wrecking Shop)16:35
alteregoActually, maybe I Don't.16:36
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BCMMalterego: better than what?16:36
alteregoWell, I've created a TelemetryModel which inherits QAbstractTableModel16:36
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alteregoWhich basically stores positional information in a QList16:37
chem|stCableTwitch: my first... no scratch no nothing but a glass of beer in 11month...16:37
chem|stCableTwitch: and I am not that carefull but my last phone survived 3 years without a scratch on the display and I opened up bottles with it16:38
alteregoI should do some load tests ..16:38
CableTwitchSee, opening bottles with an N900? Thats not a good thing to be doing ;O)16:38
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chem|stCableTwitch: it survived the beer attack pretty good, first the display was always on then the button started to tinker and so on everything back to normal but a few days ago the button refused to work anymore16:40
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BCMMalterego: also, what are you using telemetry for?16:40
BCMMare you building an n900-based UAV?16:40
alteregoBCMM: storing positional and lock information for rendering to my widgets.16:41
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alteregoLike the trackview16:41
alteregoAnd the accuracy graph.16:41
chem|stCableTwitch: I was thinking of modifying the back with a hardened aluminium frame to have it as universal bottle opener (actual idea was a plug'n'play carmount but that looks just like a bottleopener)16:41
alteregoBasically all the widgets that display historical information :P16:41
BCMMalterego: are you using a different meaning of telemetry than i expect?16:41
BCMMchem|st: i choose to read that as "bear attack"16:41
chem|stehehe16:41
alteregoBCMM: probably.16:41
alteregoI'm talking about GPS positional data.16:42
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BCMMalterego: telemetry would usually be remote collection of data16:42
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chem|stBCMM: once I got the replacement I may try the wheely and after that the bear attack16:42
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CableTwitch"Modify the bear attack"...16:42
BCMMalterego: e.g. GPS position of a scientific balloon or something16:42
alteregoBCMM: yes, you're right.16:42
alteregoBCMM: I do stream over UDP or TCP/IP ;)16:43
BCMMchem|st: wouldn't an aluminium backplate wear down the other bit of the plastic body where it made contact?16:43
alteregoBut yes, this is a local issue.16:43
BCMMalterego: you're turning the n900 into a GPS bug?16:43
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alteregoBCMM: no my app can just be used as a bluetooth or network connected GPS.16:43
BCMMi think i see16:44
alteregoIt has that capability built on top of its' data logging.16:44
alterego(logs to file too)16:44
BCMMoh, you could use the n900 like a bluetooth GPS adaptor for a PC?16:44
alteregoBCMM: exactly,16:44
BCMMthat's a good idea16:44
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alteregoI'm testing with an N810 though ^.^16:44
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MohammadAGI'm gonna ask politely16:46
MohammadAGWHO THE FUCK OPTIFIES LIBRARIES16:47
ShadowJKwhy not16:47
ShadowJKthey take up space too :/16:47
alteregoMohammadAG: it would be fine, if they're in a "standard" location, like /opt/usr/lib16:47
alteregoand /opt/lib16:47
MohammadAGcause i've been pulseaudio-less for a week because of it16:47
ShadowJK/opt/maemo/lib :)16:47
MohammadAGlibflac816:47
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DocScrutinizererr, so what?16:48
ShadowJKoh nice, does that mean ogg-support has finally been optified? it eats so much space on / :(16:48
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DocScrutinizerwho DOES NOT optify libraries?16:48
DocScrutinizer~optification16:48
infobot[optification] a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 sentence316:48
MohammadAGi have no idea, but pulseaudio doesn't start16:48
ShadowJKI wish base os was /usr and on nand, and extra stuff in /usr/maemoorg/ or something, on emmc16:49
DocScrutinizerso to me it seems the right question is: "WHO T F DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO OPTIFY CORRECTLY?"16:50
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alteregoI'd say /usr on nand and /usr/local on emmc16:51
alteregoMakes more sense ..16:51
alterego(at least to me)16:51
GAN900I don't think many people are being polite here. :P16:51
ShadowJKit's okay, MeeGo is going to be on emmc/sd only, so then we either need devices with 1-2gig ram, or go on a massive microsdhc treasurehunt trying to find one that's fast (and class rating sucks)16:52
CableTwitchThis is unusual how?16:52
ShadowJKalterego, yeah that'd be fine too16:52
CableTwitchMo, did you manage to find any RAM modules that would work with the 900?16:52
CableTwitchI'd be interested in seeing how viable a self-service upgrade to system memory could be.16:53
ShadowJKwell the ram is soldered onto the cpu16:53
X-FadeCableTwitch: Forget about it, really.16:53
CableTwitchYeah, I kinda forgot about that bit... XD16:53
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MohammadAGCableTwitch, nope16:54
alteregoUSB is faster than WiFi right?16:54
DocScrutinizeralterego: what's the use of having /usr on NAND? o.O16:54
MohammadAGCableTwitch, and if I did, I won't replace it16:54
CableTwitchI forget... is the CPU BGA?16:54
ajf_I'm on Vodafone UK and I upgraded to PR 1.3, since then my phone keeps losing signal and needs a reboot to get it back. Has anyone heard of this?16:54
SpeedEvilUSB may or may not be faster than wifi16:54
GAN900If you're good at BGA soldering you can source PoPs for reasonable prices in lots of 1000.16:54
MohammadAGalterego, yes, should be16:54
alteregoDocScrutinizer: because it's quicker for system stuff?16:54
GAN900CableTwitch, CPU and the PoP16:54
CableTwitchYay16:54
DocScrutinizeralterego: irrelevant16:54
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ShadowJKYeah, want to be able to page in the phone UI faster :)16:54
alteregoSpeedEvil: say a USB 2 memory stick or hard drive and data transfer over WiFi16:54
SpeedEvilalterego: USB will usually be faster16:55
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alteregoDocScrutinizer: how is a justification irrelevant?16:55
alteregoO_o16:55
alteregoWhy don't you come up with a reason against it.16:55
DocScrutinizeralterego: FHS isn't for anybody and his dog inventing random new schemes. Learn to do proper system architecture16:56
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alteregoO_O16:56
alteregoWhat is that supposed to mean?16:56
ShadowJKI guess we'll go back to /opt/vendor/ then16:57
alterego /usr is for core applications and /usr/local is for system wide installed applications16:57
alterego(by the sysadmin)16:57
alteregoWhich in this case is the user.16:57
ShadowJKI prefer NetBSD's /usr for system, /usr/local for things you compile yourself, /usr/pkg for things from packag tree :-)16:58
alteregoTo me, it seems better to use /usr/local than have a load of /opt/blah directories16:58
alteregoAt least then we can have a consistent entry in ld.so.conf16:58
DocScrutinizerand tbh I happily rade in 20% speed loss on accessing /usr (and *only* on accessing /usr) for that mindboggling optification16:58
MohammadAGBack to the original problem :P16:58
MohammadAG/opt isn't ready when pulseaudio starts16:58
chem|stBCMM: so what? the backpanel is about 20€ but why would it wear down?16:58
MohammadAGthus, an optified library won't work16:59
MohammadAGlibflac8 shouldn't be opified16:59
alteregoDocScrutinizer: unneccesarry.16:59
ShadowJKsubmit bugreport against pulseaudio :D16:59
alteregoWe can have both16:59
alteregoA sane architecture and the performance we have now.16:59
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Venemo_N900why does modest have to be such a piece o' crap?17:00
alterego/usr/local over /opt just seems more intuitive to me, I don't know why they didn't do it.17:00
MohammadAGShadowJK, why not against libflac817:00
ShadowJKI never understood why all the linuxen are mixing system packages and user installed packages anyway, though it hasn't ever had a well defined system border either, except on things like meego and maemo17:00
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: then the library is ill placed. It has to go to /lib then, rather than /usr/lib17:00
ShadowJKMohammadAG, because / is precious17:00
Venemo_N900hi guys17:01
MohammadAG300K/usr/lib/libFLAC.so.8.2.0 seriously...17:01
MohammadAGit's only 300k17:02
Venemo_N900what's up?17:02
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, pulseaudio loads from /usr/bin, obviously, /usr/lib is there when it starts17:02
MohammadAGhey Venemo_N90017:02
Venemo_N900hello MohammadAG :)17:02
alteregobrb17:02
ShadowJKthat's a cool strategy, split something up into 100 libraries and say "it's just 300k" for evrry one :)  (this is actually the reason why ogg-support has gigantic / use)17:03
* Venemo_N900 is on a train again17:03
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: so which noob moved a lib to /opt generically, without proper symlink from /usr/lib?17:03
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: what you say doesn't make sense to me17:03
MohammadAGit is symlinked, but /opt won't be ready at that time so the symlinks is pointless17:04
MohammadAGand the maintainer is mikkov17:04
DocScrutinizerand the definition of /usr is it gets mounted later17:04
MohammadAGand /opt gets mounted even after that17:05
DocScrutinizerso anything needing stuff prior to mounting /usr needs to go to the corresponding root directories17:05
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* chem|st likes dependencies based boot17:05
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: you're arguing with "we did that bad thing, so we now should tweak all pkg to make use of it"17:06
MohammadAGhuh? what?17:06
DocScrutinizerread FHS17:07
MohammadAGi'm just saying libflac8 shouldn't be optified17:07
DocScrutinizerunderstand what's the rationale behind /usr17:07
MohammadAGpulseaudio is started BEFORE /opt is mounted17:08
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chem|stMohammadAG: then make it mount earlier17:08
chem|stit is dumb setup anyways17:09
DocScrutinizerAnd I told you /opt is irrelevant, as it's really /usr that shouldn't be used before it gets mounted. Nobody cares about maemo that didn't understand that and instead invented optification17:09
MohammadAGyeah, and wait for a new PR17:09
DocScrutinizerso if PA is started early it has to go to /bin /lib /sbin etc, NOT to their /usr/* counterparts17:09
MohammadAGPA is started from /usr/bin...17:10
MohammadAG/usr would be mounted duh17:10
chem|stDocScrutinizer: afair my debian does mount anything itself if in fstab on auto etc if called earlier than normal17:10
DocScrutinizerSO WHAT???!!! THIS IS WROOOOONG17:10
DocScrutinizerMEH!17:10
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: had a booze night yesterday, or what?17:11
MohammadAGI think we can both agree it shouldn't be in /opt with a symlink in /usr/lib17:11
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chem|stDocScrutinizer: did you mean /usr should not be used before /opt is mounted?17:12
DocScrutinizerchem|st: irrelevant17:12
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, no, I have 20 missed calls and 10 silent ones because of a damn lib that shouldn't be optified17:12
DocScrutinizerthe definition of /usr is it MUST NOT be used for system relevant and early things17:12
chem|stDocScrutinizer: pulse is not system relevant...17:13
DocScrutinizerbut early17:13
chem|sttrue17:13
DocScrutinizervim also isn't system relevant17:13
chem|stactualy the call isn't that early...17:13
MohammadAGpa is started after /usr is mounted and before /opt is mounted17:13
DocScrutinizerread FHS17:13
MohammadAGregardless, the module should not be optified17:14
DocScrutinizerobviously as it MUST NOT go into /usr17:14
chem|stMohammadAG: it should be but /opt should be mounted before any /usr call17:14
DocScrutinizerif they want to use it early17:14
nicolaithe interesting question is, why does pulse needs libflac.17:14
MohammadAGnicolai, ldd shows that it's tied to it17:15
DocScrutinizernicolai: ++17:15
nicolaiyes, but after reflashing with pr 1.3. ldd shows it isnt tied to it17:15
MohammadAGlibFLAC.so.8 => /usr/lib/libFLAC.so.8 (0x4060a000)17:15
chem|stthe bloating pulseaudio setup of nokia is pissing me off anyway17:15
MohammadAGnicolai, err, what?17:16
MohammadAGso something is replacing pulseaudio?17:16
DocScrutinizerchem|st: congrats, now we're two17:16
chem|stDocScrutinizer: since march...17:16
chem|stMohammadAG: properly using pulse would be one idea17:17
DocScrutinizerI wouldn't be surprised to find that being a side effect in powerkernel (libflac)17:17
alteregoHrm ..17:17
chem|stthere is no need for a systemwide daemon running17:18
alteregoWhy does dbus go through the roof when I use it in Qt?!17:18
DocScrutinizer>>titan: "Duh, why not include a few nice codecs to PA by default?!"17:18
Venemo_N900hopefully they'll get it right in MeeGo17:18
chem|stthe only thing why pulse is needed that early is the damn hands movie17:19
DocScrutinizerthey won't17:19
Khertan<chem|st> the bloating pulseaudio setup of nokia is pissing me off anyway <<< the ubuntu one is worse :)17:19
DocScrutinizerchem|st: yep17:19
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Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: why won't they?17:19
DocScrutinizermeego is adopting PA17:19
Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: well there is nothing wrong with PA itself17:20
chem|stKhertan: I knew there are a lot of reasons why I do not use buntu distros - it adds to it17:20
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DocScrutinizerorly?17:20
Venemo_N900lots of desktop distros use it too17:20
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DocScrutinizeryeah, screwit damn #@@!?%&/17:20
chem|stVenemo_N900: there is a lot wrong with pulse if you set it --system17:21
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Khertanchem|st, :) yep but i've still problem with my pulseaudio conf ... without using ubuntu :) but hem ... i can only blame myself17:21
DocScrutinizerbecause of some ****** shoving that PA shit down everybodies throat17:21
corecodeanybody hacked the mail client to store sent mail on imap?17:22
chem|stKhertan: Venemo_N900: and on my desktop I am fighting aswell but with my own setup from hell17:22
Venemo_N900heh17:22
chem|stMohammadAG: make pulse die after startup movie might help17:22
Khertanchem|st, i ve try to setup myself after just installing debian core17:22
Venemo_N900why not simply mount the necessary stuff earlier?17:23
DocScrutinizerchem|st: MohammadAG: you should listen carefully to what nicolai said17:23
chem|stKhertan: welcome to the jungle17:23
chem|stDocScrutinizer: you mean the "why does it need" part?17:24
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DocScrutinizermore the >><nicolai> yes, but after reflashing with pr 1.3. ldd shows it isnt tied to it<< part17:24
GAN900DocScrutinizer, tell us how you REALLY feel.17:24
DocScrutinizerGAN900: huh?17:25
chem|stDocScrutinizer: it is called at that point anyway if MohammadAG isn't on his other phone...17:25
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: sorry, you lost me17:25
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corecodewhat do you suggest, maemo sdk+, or just plain maemo 5 sdk from nokia?17:26
chem|stDocScrutinizer: thought he got two phones one at PR1.2 and another 1.317:26
chem|stDocScrutinizer: nvm17:27
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG? not afaik17:27
Khertanchem|st, maybe i should try an working out of the box distribution ...17:27
Khertanchem|st, but based on debian :)17:27
MohammadAGnope, not me17:27
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Khertanchem|st, linux mint seems a good candidate17:27
chem|stKhertan: what do you mean, own distro or use a OOTB one?17:27
chem|stKhertan: depends on the device you are using17:28
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DocScrutinizerI'd suggest a mass poll on ldd PA, vs stock or power kernel17:28
chem|stKhertan: and expectations you got17:28
DocScrutinizerI suspect a flaw in power kernel config17:28
Khertanchem|st, device will be a core i5 4gb ram sys on ssd , something fast, pyqt, pidgin, quot libet, firefox and libnotification :)17:29
Khertanand virtualbox :)17:29
Khertannot really complicated ... something that all distrib can provide :)17:29
chem|stKhertan: I was one of the earliest to adopt debian on a sammy nc10 (2 weeks after release in europe) fully supported, 3 month later linux mint worked OOTB...17:30
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chem|stKhertan: so a desktop plugnpray machine17:31
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Khertanchem|st, hum ... i used debian squeeze with xfce + tint2 on my samsung n130 :)17:31
Venemo_N900corecode: what is maemo sdk+ ?17:32
Khertanchem|st, plugandpray ? why ?17:32
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Khertanchem|st, i ve verified that all mainboard chipset are supported by the current squeeze version of debian :)=17:32
Khertan(audio, network, usb ...)17:32
chem|stKhertan: squeeze + ion3, pray as I got a 50:50 chance of melting something when I hotplug pciE cards ;)17:33
chem|stKhertan: sure... mint is debian derived17:33
Khertandid you hotplug pciE cards everyday ?17:34
chem|stKhertan: no just for several hours several times17:35
DocScrutinizerGAN900: what was it you wanted me to tell you?17:35
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chem|stcompared cube and physics performance of nvidia cards and raidcontrollers17:35
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chem|stfried one...17:36
Khertanchem|st, ;) ... i think i didn't plug or unplug something on my pc since april 201017:36
Khertan:)17:36
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chem|stKhertan: just some hours ago I had my n900 fully dissected17:37
Khertanbut the main question is why using mint instead of debian ... as it s just a derivated ... i didn't see the added value17:37
chem|stuh mint is just no hassle! I prefer pure debian17:38
chem|stmint is like "put it on a stick and boot, copy it on disk and reboot without stick!"17:38
chem|stsystem ready...17:39
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Venemo_N900the question is, why did the authors of mint start their own distro instead of contributing to Debian?17:40
GAN900DocScrutinizer, sorry, I forgot the sarcasm tags. *g*17:41
DocScrutinizerthough those wouldn't help me to understand what you were referring to17:41
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KhertanVenemo_N900, yep ... also17:42
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DocScrutinizerNFC what you meant to say17:42
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chem|stVenemo_N900: most start because of the restrictive upstream management, the goal fro debian is to create a ultra-rock-solid-server distribution and so is the management17:43
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yaccWonder, is there any documentation on the boot process of the n900?17:43
GAN900DocScrutinizer, was addressing your anger about Nokia this morning. ;)17:43
Venemo_N900chem|st: ok so then there is ubuntu17:43
DocScrutinizerme? angry about Nokia?17:44
Venemo_N900chem|st: they could've contributed to that too17:44
RST38hGAN900: Have you been promising Doc pink unicorns, online? =)17:44
DocScrutinizernot more than usual17:44
chem|stVenemo_N900: religion?17:44
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: [citation needed]17:45
Venemo_N900chem|st: maybe17:45
Venemo_N900chem|st: but I still think it is ridiculous17:45
chem|st170+ distributions is ridiculous!17:45
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Venemo_N900chem|st: indeed17:46
chem|stI understand the common 15-20 but the rest... waste of space17:47
alteregoLooks like I've crashed Xorg ..17:47
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Venemo_N900chem|st: although I do not agree with it, I can understand why people do it17:47
chem|st2nd17:47
DocScrutinizeryeah, nuke *buntu and we are rid of some of the more annoying ones ;-P17:47
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chem|stDocScrutinizer: for example17:48
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Khertanchem|st, and what did you think of using ssd ? does there is a real performance improve or not by using it for / but not /home and swap ?17:48
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chem|stKhertan: mainly useless, faster boot, all relevant stuff is in RAM anyway so performance you get for starting stuff but not for running stuff17:50
DocScrutinizerchem|st: ++17:50
MohammadAG_hmm, how do I get a USB headset working on maemo?17:50
Khertan(small ssd 32Go but Read: Up to 280 MB/s and write 170Mbs)17:50
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: with the right drivers?17:50
MohammadAG_other than those?17:50
chem|stKhertan: so what? I would like to have that for my 2TB data partition17:51
Khertanchem|st, hum ... as it s arround 100Euros ... maybe i should go for 8Gb of ram instead of 4Gb for same price17:51
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chem|stI dont care about slow startup of a program as I leave everything open, so fast swap with about 4GB is just enough17:52
chem|stKhertan: RAM I buy as much as the MB supports...17:52
chem|stKhertan: having a DVD cached in RAM while watching/burning/resampling etc. is a key feat.17:53
DocScrutinizerchem|st: ++17:55
chem|stKhertan: swap is only 4GB as it only swaps if realy needed, hibernate goes to swapfile somewhere17:55
chem|stDocScrutinizer: you agree alot today ;)17:55
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chem|stKhertan: / is on my slowest disk /data is on my most energy efficient and /home on my fastest...17:56
DocScrutinizeryeah, I probably should throttle posting such noise17:56
chem|stDocScrutinizer: nope it is good the see that people agree on things I am normaly fighting for17:57
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yaccAh, anyone got an idea how the boot process inside maemo5 works? Googling turns up many pages related to installing MeeGo, Android, but not much related to things that happen after the kernel takes over.17:58
chem|stKhertan: I loose about 30MB/s just because of encryption...17:58
chem|sthave a nice weekend ppl17:58
Venemo_N900chem|st: you too :)17:59
DocScrutinizeryacc: a bit. ask specific questions17:59
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yaccDocScrutinizer: I'm still on my pulseaudio does not start problem.17:59
DocScrutinizerread backscroll, seems MohammadAG_ has found a cause18:00
Venemo_N900yacc: does 'start pulseaudio' as root solve it? it does for me most of the time18:00
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DocScrutinizerVenemo_N900: power kernel?18:01
yaccDocScrutinizer: The interesting part is that I cannot start pulseaudio (stopping because it's respawning to fast) after booting the device, but later (no idea how much later, I admit) I can start it.18:01
yaccDocScrutinizer: And no, I have the stock kernel, no power kernel for me.18:01
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Khertanchem|st, thanks, you too18:02
DocScrutinizertry starting PA directly, with the exact line that's used normaly as a parameter to dsme-tool im /etc/events.d18:02
DocScrutinizersee if you can get any meaningful output or syslog18:03
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Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: nope, stock kernel here18:05
Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: still PA doesn't start in 50% of time18:06
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Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: in most cases, I can start it with 'start pulseaudio', and it the crap upstart says "respawning too fast", then a reboot usually fixes it18:06
DocScrutinizerumm, for PA upstart does "respawn" no dsme-tool involved o.O18:07
DocScrutinizerVenemo_N900: respawning too fast isn't any useful an errormsg18:08
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DocScrutinizerit just indicates PA has quit and was restarted by upstart several times18:08
Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: afaik it is a bug in Maemo's Upstart that it says this when it's in a bad mood18:08
DocScrutinizerit doesn't tell WHY PA quits18:08
Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: indeed18:09
yaccDocScrutinizer: That's from now when pa does start: http://pastebin.com/bSL0ACCd18:09
yaccVenemo_N900, actually the respawning too fast happens for me after a reboot and goes away after some time.18:10
Venemo_N900what I'm saying is that Upstart randomly gives this message for other stuff too18:10
Venemo_N900we would need to find out why PA doesn't start in the first place18:10
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DocScrutinizer E: voice-sidetone.c: Cannot open /sys/devices/platform/omap-mcbsp.2/st_enable  -- looks odd18:11
alteregoupstart does that because it's shit.18:11
alteregoI've had so much hassle trying to get daemons running in upstart with that lame message.18:11
DocScrutinizeralterego: ???18:12
alteregoThere was actually a bug in the version of upstart used in maemo that caused that issue,18:12
alteregoDon't know if it was fixed.18:12
DocScrutinizerticket#?18:12
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alteregoIt's a known upstream problem anyway.18:12
alteregoNo idea.18:13
alteregoDocScrutinizer: ^18:13
DocScrutinizerdoesn't sound convincing to me18:13
DocScrutinizersee /etc/event.d/pulseaudio, last line: >>respawn18:14
DocScrutinizerSo I tend to think upstart restarts PA as PA is segfaulting or otherwise quiting18:15
MohammadAG_yacc, copy the lib in /opt to /usr/lib18:15
DocScrutinizerif this happens too often, upstart is supposed to throw error "respawning too fast" -- init does same for respawning processes in inittab18:16
MohammadAG_and i wasn't the one who found the solution18:16
alteregoI could really do with another N900 :/18:16
MohammadAG_cp /opt/maemo/usr/lib/libFLAC.so.8.2.0 /usr/lib/libFLAC.so.8.2.0 yacc18:17
yaccThat's from when start pulseaudio complains about respawning: http://pastebin.com/KTCsW5EE18:17
MohammadAG_yacc do that and reboot, pa will work just fine18:17
yaccMohammadAG: how so?18:17
yaccAh.18:18
yaccopt is not yet mounted when pa tries to start first time?18:18
MohammadAG_yeah18:18
yaccusr/lib is a symlink to opt18:18
MohammadAG_(sometimes it is, that's why it wokrs 1% of the time)18:18
MohammadAG_works*18:18
MohammadAG_yep18:18
Venemo_N900well Upstart does that awful message for 'start sticky-notes' too sometimes... so... alterego is right, this is an upstart bug18:19
MohammadAG_err, not /usr/lib18:19
MohammadAG_/usr/lib/libFLAC.so.8.2.018:19
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yaccMohammadAG: I know, I meant /usr/lib/libFLAC....18:19
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MohammadAG_yeah, that's a symlink, copy the file in /opt to overwrite it18:19
MohammadAG_~seen mikkov18:20
infobotmikkov <~mikkov@xdsl-83-150-82-126.nebulazone.fi> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 242d 18h 17m 26s ago, saying: 'http://ecoach.garage.maemo.org/'.18:20
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: why just libflac? aren't there other libs on which it depends?18:20
MohammadAGapparently, only that one is optified18:20
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Venemo_N900oh.18:21
yaccMohammadAG: Does not fix it for me. I restarted (actually did echo b >/proc/sysrq*) and it still cannot play ringtones in the settings app.18:21
yaccOTOH, pulseaudio is running, which is clearly an improvement.18:22
yaccWhere does upstart store the output of the executed commands?18:22
alteregoyacc: doesn't unless you tell it to18:22
DocScrutinizerVenemo_N900: never blame a component to be buggy unless you have sound proof for what exactly is the bug18:22
yaccalterego, how do I tell it?18:22
alteregoyacc learn upstart config and read the config file :)18:23
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alteregoBy default I don't think apps are created attached to a tty18:23
DocScrutinizeralterego: sounds more like it18:24
Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: well I didn't research into it much18:24
MohammadAG_alterego, is there a way to send a DBus signal when h-e-n enumerates something?18:24
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MohammadAG_well, when a Qt app does something in general18:24
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: there is QtDbus18:24
alteregoMohammadAG_: yeah, QtDbus :P18:24
MohammadAG_by sending a signal I mean sending my own signal for other apps to use it18:24
alteregoYes18:24
alteregoEasy, as pie :P18:25
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: it is totally possible with QtDbus18:25
MohammadAG_would be nice to have an app that auto detects a mouse and activates the patched mouse driver + mouse pointer18:25
alteregoMohammadAG_: http://doc.trolltech.com/qq/qq20-dbus.html18:25
MohammadAG_ty18:25
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alterego"Sending and Receiving"18:25
alteregodbus is quite nice in Qt.18:26
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/qtdbus.html18:26
yaccAny way to get ls to show not only the inode number but also the st_dev?18:26
DocScrutinizerok, seems we excluded powerkernel from the usual suspects. So I guess everybody who has this PA problem has the pkg advanced-audio-codecs (or similar) installed. I could imagine there's a bug in this pkg with linking some PA module that gets replaced to a lib that's optified18:26
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MohammadAG_removing one line in libflac8.postinst to not optify it would do wonders18:27
DocScrutinizerwhich pkg is libflac8 ?18:27
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MohammadAG_libflac8 :)18:28
DocScrutinizerbah18:28
MohammadAG_decoders-support just depends on it18:28
DocScrutinizerk18:28
Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: I have the "extra decoders support" installed, yes18:28
DocScrutinizercheck libflac8 of PR1.218:29
DocScrutinizerthe pkg18:29
alteregoI've never had this issue ..18:29
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, it's an extras package, can be fixed18:29
alteregoBut I don't think I installed extra codec support this time round.18:29
MohammadAG_would enumeration be better as a system bus signal or a session bus one?18:29
DocScrutinizercheck the module/lib that ld-depends on libflac8, in version of PR1.218:29
Venemo_N900alterego: be happy then :)18:29
* MohammadAG_ votes system :)18:29
alteregoQ: My app has the option of screen keep-alive, should I, when my app is switched to background, inhibit that function if it's enabled?18:29
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: prior to fixing we need to spot the bug18:30
alteregoSo, my app will only keep alive the screen, if it's in the foreground and the option is enabled.18:30
DocScrutinizeryou found a botch workaround, but haven't yet dissected where the bug came in18:30
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Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: I found you this: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/examples-dbus.html18:30
alteregoDocScrutinizer: probably because PA doesn't have mountfs as one of its' dependants.18:31
MohammadAG_alterego, yes, that would be nice :)18:31
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Venemo_N900alterego: yes, you should18:31
DocScrutinizer2 possible causes: a) libflac8.postinst is buggy in PR1.3,  b) the binary that links in this libflac8 is buggy18:31
alteregoYeah, done it, thought it'd probably be the sane choice ;)18:31
MohammadAG_Venemo_N900, thanks :D18:31
Venemo_N900alterego: or if you're not sure, place an additional option in your app whether to do so18:32
DocScrutinizeralterego: that's also quite possible18:32
* MohammadAG_ likes the chat example, would be nice to have a cross platform bluetooth messenger, classes are sometimes boring18:32
alteregoDocScrutinizer: if it's caused by mount happening too late, then that is the better solution I think.18:32
Venemo_N900:)18:32
ShadowJKalterego, yes that sounds sensible18:32
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: why not just irc?18:32
yaccDocScrutinizer: Don't think so, because I just listed the st_dev and it's the same for all libraries referenced from /usr/lib/pulse-0.9.15/modules/*.so :(18:32
DocScrutinizeralterego: could be a sleeping bug since ages, that came up on PR1.3 with some timing changes / race18:33
alteregoYeah,18:33
alteregoDo you want me to look at the upstart configs then? ;)18:33
DocScrutinizeralterego: would you verify it fixes things, and then open a ticket with a proper patch attached?18:34
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alteregoWell, I don't suffer the issue.18:34
MohammadAG_Venemo_N900, cause my classmates don't use IRC :)18:34
Venemo_N900alterego: try the extra decoders support and see if you suffer it then18:34
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alteregom'kay.18:34
DocScrutinizerok, so explain to moh and yacc and Venemo_N900 how to fix it proper, and they will happily verify18:34
DocScrutinizeralterego: ^^18:35
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: I meant #maemo :P18:35
alteregoI don't really want to suffer it thanks ;)18:35
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alteregoI'll explain the fix and make a patch.18:35
alteregoIf it seems to solve the issue then you can submit it.18:35
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MohammadAG_Venemo_N900, heh, I'm always on18:35
DocScrutinizeralterego: :-D18:35
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: huh, really?18:36
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Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: how does your battery handle it?18:36
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* peb is gone. Gone since Fri Nov 26 15:14:00 201018:36
MohammadAG_Venemo_N900, well, I cracked the school's WEP so I don't need to worry about 3G18:36
yacclol, funny behaviour too: despite pulseaudio running, when the alarmclock wants to play an alarm all I get is a beep (could be also the first sub-second part of the ring tone, not sure).18:36
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: lol :D18:37
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MohammadAG_yacc, you probably used /etc/event.d/pulseaudio to start pulseaudio right?18:37
MohammadAG_I did that last week, make a call, it'll always go through the loudspeakers18:37
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yaccMohammadAG_, well, after the libFLAC fix it does start on boot, so yeah, I guess so.18:37
Venemo_N900yacc: I haven't seen that bug yet, although I use the default alarm ringtone18:37
MohammadAG_reboot fixed it18:38
MohammadAG_ah, nvm then18:38
* MohammadAG_ thinks he has seen most bugs around maemo :P18:38
alteregoOkay, it appears the fix is to add: start on stopped rcS-late to /etc/event.d/pulseaudio18:38
yaccMohammadAG_: and despite that pa is running, the media player still says "cannot play, audio device is used by a different program"18:38
Venemo_N900hmm18:39
yaccalterego, add or replace the existing start on line?18:39
MohammadAG_add it18:39
alteregoadd it18:39
alteregoIt needs to start after dbus too.18:39
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yaccOk, rebooting.18:40
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MohammadAG_rebooting18:41
alteregoThis may, however, stop the nokia tune from playing ..18:41
yaccalterego, that's a bonus :)18:41
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alteregoHeh18:41
MohammadAG_(file moved back to /opt, symlinked again)18:42
MohammadAG_I hope I haven't typod18:42
yaccalterego, nothing as irritating to be unable to restart the phone without letting the whole room know.18:42
MohammadAG_btw, reboot shuts down my device for some reason18:42
Jay_BEEgood (UGT) morning18:42
Venemo_N900yacc: well you can always remove the hands movie entirely18:42
alteregoyacc: well, that's an easy fix: echo -n > /usr/share/whereever/that/avi/is.avi18:42
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MohammadAG_alterego, didn't work :)18:42
alteregoInteresting.18:42
alteregoSo you still have the problem?18:43
Venemo_N900there is an option in powatool that turns that movie of18:43
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alteregoI installed a custom one.18:43
yaccalterego, lol I think you can leave out the echo -n, the redirection on an empty command makes also an empty file.18:43
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alteregoOh, cool :P18:43
alteregoLearn something new every day ;)18:44
yaccalterego, media player still tells me that something else is using the "sound device".18:44
Venemo_N900yacc: hm, interesting18:44
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MohammadAG_instead of clearing the avi file, clear the config18:44
Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: agreed18:44
MohammadAG_yacc, heh, had that one18:44
MohammadAG_only fix was to reflash :)18:44
Venemo_N900hm. is that avi optified at least?18:44
MohammadAG_I think so18:44
MohammadAG_lcuk, should know18:45
MohammadAG_btw, why does mce sorta depend on pulseaudio for haptic feedback?18:45
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yaccMohammadAG_: that's not exactly a fix, that's a capitulation ;)18:45
DocScrutinizeralterego: event.d/rcS-late:18:46
DocScrutinizerscript18:46
DocScrutinizer    #mount /home; fix ext3 and retry mounting if 1st attempt fails18:46
DocScrutinizer    mount_home ()18:46
alteregobleurgh18:46
alteregom'kay18:46
alteregoremote the -late18:47
* MohammadAG_ has yet to figure out how to scroll to the bottom of a QTextBrowser/QTextEdit18:47
alteregoThis might be the case18:47
alteregotry: start on stopped rcS18:47
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Venemo_N900MohammadAG_: #qt is a nice place18:47
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alterego#qt is full of trolls18:48
* MohammadAG_ agrees ^18:48
Venemo_N900yeah, literally :D18:48
Venemo_N900lol18:48
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yaccJust tried it out, my ringtone is the same as the ringtone in the alarm clock, 4 very short weak beeps.18:48
alteregoyacc: do you want to try with the modification I just said?18:49
yaccalterego, which one?18:49
yaccalterego, start on rc late, that one is already in there and rebooted afterwards.18:49
yaccalterego, the full way with pin request and all.18:50
alteregostart on stopped rcS18:50
alterego(without -late)18:50
yaccstart on stopped rcS18:50
alteregoYes18:50
yaccHope that's ok, reboot coming.18:50
alterego:)18:50
alteregoIt's okay for sshd :P18:51
alteregoStrange how rcS-late doesn't depend on rcS :)18:51
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yaccBtw, the sounds for "battery is charging" and "connected IM" are playing fine.18:52
Venemo_N900what does rcS stand for?18:52
Venemo_N900yacc: can the cause be file system corruption?18:53
yaccrc file for single user mode, that is always executed no matter what init level you want to go to?18:53
DocScrutinizeralterego: WUT?18:53
DocScrutinizero.O18:53
DocScrutinizeryeah, seems all quite... messed up18:54
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yaccalterego, ok, did not help.18:54
alteregopfft18:54
MohammadAG_I'm more interested in why /etc/event.replace.d/ isn't cleaned up18:54
alteregoOh well, I give up, got things to do :P18:54
yaccmedia player still claims the device is busy.18:54
MohammadAG_yacc, I suggested reflashing, I had the same problem with the camera18:54
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: who claimed it should?18:54
alteregoI might look into it later if I have the time and I fancy screwing my media playback capabilities :P18:54
alteregoWait, is yacc's problem not the one we're trying to fix:18:55
alterego?18:55
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, I have duplicate scripts in /etc/event.d and /etc/event.replace.d18:55
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: please enlighten me what exactly this event.replace.d is for18:55
yaccI wonder why some apps (the desktop for example) can play sounds while others cannot?18:55
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Venemo_N900may be a permission issue?18:56
korhojoahmm, anyone tried using uprecords on their n900?18:56
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, postinst of mce copies script from it18:56
MohammadAG_to /etc/event.d18:56
korhojoai got it installed on mine using the debian armel debs, but it doesn't keep the records updated18:56
MohammadAG_yacc, policy file issue?18:56
korhojoaeach reboot it resets them18:56
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: hmm, so why should it be cleaned?18:56
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ereslibrehey, where can i find maemo bluetooth related code ?18:57
yaccMohammadAG: I've got two processes accessing /dev/snd, one is pa, and the other one is /usr/sbin/alsaped -p 4 -f /usr/share/policy/etc/curre18:57
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: good point18:58
yaccMohammadAG_, Which policy files?18:58
yaccMohammadAG_: which package do I need to reinstall?18:58
MohammadAG_Nokia-N900:~# cat /usr/share/policy/etc/current/pulse/xpolicy.conf | pastebinit18:58
MohammadAG_http://pastebin.com/jZZaL3cE18:58
DocScrutinizeranybody of you installed the skip-on-headset-pushbutton app, or the pause-on-unplug-hs ?18:58
MohammadAG_you might want to remove the last two section if you don't have them18:58
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, headphoned, yes, I have it18:59
DocScrutinizermight mess up policy file18:59
MohammadAG_and qwerty12's headset-control app, had it for quite some time, then my headset broke18:59
yaccDocScrutinizer: Now that you ask, I've got the pause-on-unplug app installed.18:59
Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: pause on unplug is here, works as always for me18:59
MohammadAG_yacc it doesn't cause issues18:59
DocScrutinizerthat doesn't mean it leaves the file intact though19:00
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MohammadAG_it edits it, but it doesn't ruin it :)19:00
Venemo_N900anyway guys, I have to leave now19:00
DocScrutinizerit might introduce whatever issue, with 1.319:00
Venemo_N900good evening to all of you and have a nice weekend :)19:00
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DocScrutinizereven a perfect edit that was ok for 1.2 may mess up 1.3 PA19:01
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MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, true, but I have it installed and it hasn't caused me issues19:02
MohammadAG_also, thp hasn't left the community, if it does cause issues he would've updated it :)19:02
DocScrutinizerI strongly suggest to check both apps. Deinstall, make sure the files were restored to original, check if error still occurs19:02
DocScrutinizerthe late mount story sounds good, but when mediaplayer is doing shakehands from optified medifile, then evidently /home has to be mounted at that point in time19:04
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yaccMohammadAG_: That's the diff to mine: http://pastebin.com/wRGi6U1J19:04
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DocScrutinizerlooks fishy19:06
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alteregoLovely segfaulys.19:06
alterego~segfaults.19:06
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DocScrutinizerdon't call infobot names19:06
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alteregoHeh19:07
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yaccsigh19:08
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yaccDo we have some cmdline tools that I could try for playing a mp3 through pa?19:09
* MohammadAG_ looks at the two assignments he has to write and hand in tomorrow19:10
* MohammadAG_ goes back to Qt Creator19:10
alteregoYaaay, fixed me segfauly :)19:10
DocScrutinizerplay-sound19:10
alteregoAh, need to clean up that a bit ^.^19:11
DocScrutinizeralterego: ??19:11
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yaccNokia-N900-51-1:~# play-sound /home/user/MyDocs/Musik/Vangelis/The\ Hits\ of\ Vangelis/01\ -\ Pulstar.mp319:13
yaccca_context_play_full (vol -0.000000): File or data corrupt19:13
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yaccGoogle does not say anything about that error :(19:14
yaccaway for a moment19:15
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nicolaiyacc: try a .wav file, play-sound /usr/share/sounds/ui-battery_low.wav19:17
BCMMit could be worse. i hate it when the only google results for an error are the source code of the program that just broke19:18
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DocScrutinizeryacc: play-sound knows .wav - seems it doesn't know other formats though (makes sense)19:21
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DocScrutinizeryacc: seems you're back to gst-* to playback mp319:27
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DocScrutinizerBCMM: I'd love that19:29
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DocScrutinizerusually you find 37k-hits on lusers whining, and no proper link at all to the source19:30
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yaccDocScrutinizer: Isn't that funny, play-sound can play the wav file fine, ...19:39
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DocScrutinizeryacc: play-sound is using another policy. You can tell by the always-100% volume it uses19:40
yaccDocScrutinizer: By policy you mean the ini-file style sections in the xpolicy file?19:40
DocScrutinizeryep19:40
DocScrutinizerthe strange thing called policy enforcer in PA, that makes the volume separate for ringtones and for music playback and for calls19:41
DocScrutinizercontrolled by that file, among others. NFC how it works in detail, or where to find docs19:42
yaccDo I need to restart pa after changing the file?19:42
kerio"not fucking care"?19:42
DocScrutinizer~nfc19:42
infobot[nfc] No Fucking Clue19:42
kerioooh19:42
DocScrutinizeryacc: dunno19:42
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DocScrutinizermaybe send SIGHUP to PA-foo19:43
DocScrutinizeror restart19:43
DocScrutinizeror nothing at all19:43
yaccLet's say, pulse audio is a really great piece of software. But just anyone (even people doing Linux over a decade, or perhaps especially these) hopes that their distribution gets it all right, and they don't need to touch it ;)19:43
keriopulseaudio is horrid19:44
DocScrutinizeryep. And I heard hundered times one of the major reasons for inventing PA was the abysmal ALSA doc. I can't say I find PA doc any better - hell I can't find any doc at all19:44
yacckerio, It can record stereo send it around half of the globe, and then replicate the stream to 3 Bluetooth headsets while recording it on harddisc with every headset having a seperate volume and so on. But setting it up makes hardcore Linux users go into panic mode.19:45
keriojackd does that too :(19:45
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DocScrutinizeryacc: ACK19:47
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DocScrutinizerbtw ALSA can do that as well... well maybe not around half the globe19:47
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yaccAh, just discovered GST pipeline syntax, ...19:49
DocScrutinizerthe really odd thing: all my mixers on my desktop are still kinda attributed ALSA mixer, not a single PA mixer19:49
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yaccI love man pages that look like an annotated BNF19:49
DocScrutinizerand those ALSA mixers all can handle softvol controls quite naturally. You don't even notice it's not a hw control19:49
yaccYet another layer that can do everything. So Alsa can mix streams, PA too, and gstream pipelines seem to replicate a good part of that too, ...19:51
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yaccWho the fuck thought this eggheads about abstraction layers, sigh.19:52
yacccacasink:  cacasink: A colored ASCII art video sink19:54
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yaccI think that's clearly everything that I need, ...19:54
DocScrutinizer51caca YEP  XP19:56
alteregoyacc: alsa & PA can't decode/encode19:56
alteregoAnd muxing streams in gstreamer is different.19:56
DocScrutinizer51libcacafap19:57
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yaccalterego, any tool where I need more than 15 minutes to figure out from the manpage how to play a mp3 file is suspect to me?19:57
alteregoO_o19:58
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alteregoMeh,19:58
alteregogst-launch isn't meant for playing an mp3 is it :P19:58
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DocScrutinizerit's NOT?20:01
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DocScrutinizerI guess that's exactly what mediaplayer does though20:01
alteregoIt's one thing that it happens to be able to do.20:02
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yaccOk, so what conversion module does decode a mp3 file, ..20:04
yaccBecause the examples in the man page use mad which is not there on my n900.20:06
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pupnikyacc: what language?20:07
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yaccpupnik, language?20:07
alteregoHe's using gst-launch20:07
pupnikoh20:07
yaccTrying to.20:08
alteregoyacc: why not just use "play-sound" command?20:08
yaccalterego, because that one works and my media player does not.20:08
alteregoHeh20:08
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GAN900Ah, Fall cold.20:08
yaccHence I want to see what the media player sees, because media-player error messages seem not always to be perfect clear.20:08
GAN900Lovely.20:08
alteregoYou mean the maemo media player?20:08
javispedrohey GAN90020:08
javispedrobtw, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNKOImlCWHk (yes I filmed that)20:09
alteregoyacc: the maemo media player uses mafw20:09
GAN900Howdy-ho20:09
alteregoyacc: mafw is a dbus service that uses gstreamer to play audio.20:09
yaccmafw? So where's the documentation?20:09
alteregoIf you want to see what media player sees, you need to use dbus-send and dbus-monitor :P20:09
alteregodo a google search for mafw ..20:09
GAN900javispedro, that thing was creepy.20:09
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yaccalterego, cool, so where's the docs?20:10
pupnikjavispedro: minitube doesn't see your link, but browser does20:10
yaccGoogle associates mafw with "Morris Area Freewheelers Bicycle Club - Home"20:10
alteregoyacc: google20:10
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GAN900pupnik, unlisted video.20:10
alteregoI'm sure you can be a bit more inventive than that.20:10
alteregoIt stands for "Media application framework"20:10
javispedropupnik: try now, i've made it public (nothing interesting though :) )20:11
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DocScrutinizer( <alterego> yacc: why not just use "play-sound" command?) [2010-11-26 18:21:53] <DocScrutinizer> yacc: play-sound knows .wav - seems it doesn't know other formats though (makes sense)20:14
pupnikty got it javispedro20:14
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javispedroplay-sound as20:14
javispedro*also uses system  notifications volume20:15
javispedroso it will be loud20:15
DocScrutinizerahaaaa, where from you got that special secret wisdom?20:15
RST38hheya javispedro20:15
DocScrutinizerI always wondered which policy it uses20:15
javispedrohi RST38h20:15
javispedroDocScrutinizer: pure experimentation20:16
DocScrutinizerlol20:16
DocScrutinizerisn't doc excellent on the whole audio-shit?20:16
javispedrocompletely!20:16
javispedrothere's no hidden x-maemo stuff whatsoever.20:16
javispedroeverything documented.20:16
korhojoa:D20:17
* javispedro sighs20:17
DocScrutinizeruhum20:17
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yaccDocScrutinizer: The point is not to play a mp3 file, the point is to get to see what really happens when it spits out it's error message. Last time when pa was dead it said something like "cannot play files in this format", .... <= not exactly the real cause, ...20:17
RST38hopen, yes20:17
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troulouliouhi could anybody give me the output of glxinfo on its maemo ?20:17
BCMMyacc: it complains about the format if anything at all goes wrong20:18
BCMMyacc: i've had that due to PA dieing and due to the DSP getting a broken state20:18
BCMM^in20:18
BCMMtroulouliou: sure, which package is it in?20:19
yaccBCMM, so it's perhaps understandable that I want to know more, because with such generic error messages it's hard to debug the situation.20:19
troulouliouBCMM: apt-get install mesa-utils20:19
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DocScrutinizer51yeah, maemo just works, why bother about error msgs or docs20:19
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troulouliouthe app manager is too slow here so i drop it definitively :)20:20
erstazijust curious: N900 users, how do you know your N900 is charging?20:20
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troulouliouther is a led blinkning in the corner20:20
javispedrotroulouliou: there's no GLX in the Maemo xorg server.20:20
erstazidoes the little red light on the bottom left blink?20:20
erstazitroulouliou: ^20:20
BCMMerstazi: a light comes on (by default), and you can see it in the status area too20:20
BCMMerstazi: that light isn't always red20:20
BCMMerstazi: by default, it's orange for charging20:20
DocScrutinizer51amber20:21
erstaziBCMM: right but that is if the phone is on (: but if the phone is off, does the normally white light blink red when it is off?20:21
yaccIf I trust dbus-monitor nothing beyond a stop message is transmitted, ...20:21
trouloulioujavispedro: what is the equivalent20:21
BCMMerstazi: still orange, by defualt20:21
DocScrutinizer51no20:21
* erstazi checks the user manual 20:21
DocScrutinizer51no red ever20:21
BCMMorange blinking light, even if hte phone is "off"20:21
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BCMMred is for errors, and i think for the front cam being on20:21
BCMM(but i've messed with my settings and might've forgotten the defaults)20:22
DocScrutinizer51amber :-P20:22
trouloulioujavispedro: cause opengles 1.0 suport it i think20:22
javispedrotroulouliou: it's a long story, but the equivalent is  EGL20:22
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javispedrotroulouliou: anything specific you want to know?20:23
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trouloulioujavispedro: yeah i m porting an application that compil against GLES 1.020:23
BCMMjust installing a pastebin script20:23
troulouliouand its using GLX for window rendering20:23
BCMMincidentally, glxgears doesn't work right :(20:24
trouloulioujavispedro: so i hoped that at least the mesa-glx was working fine20:24
javispedrotroulouliou: are you sure it's GLES (not GL)? It'll be the first time I have ever seen such a combination (possible though)20:24
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javispedroBCMM: no wonder, as I guess glxgears is GL1.0 (not GLES1)20:24
BCMM_http://pastebin.com/VSRHDZJS20:24
BCMMtroulouliou: &20:25
BCMM^, rather20:25
javispedrohandle with care, that is very probably sw rendering20:25
BCMM"OpenGL renderer string: Mesa X11" - yep20:26
BCMMwhy's that?20:26
javispedroI am trying to explain, above :)20:26
javispedrothere's no GLX at all in the N900.20:26
BCMMGLXgears was weird, incidentally: just a fullscreen transparent window...20:26
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trouloulioujavispedro: think it is , it is based on ogre20:26
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javispedroogre itself was ported to the n90020:27
BCMMso OpenGL ES isn't implemented through mesa?20:27
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troulouliouBCMM: both 1.0 and 2.0 have their own driver20:29
javispedrotroulouliou: I'm quite sure the GLES port of Ogre uses EGL, not GLX...20:29
javispedrosee http://ogre.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/ogre/trunk/RenderSystems/GLES/src/20:29
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BCMMis ES not entirely a subset of opengl proper then?20:29
javispedroit's a long story BCMM, GLX was never part of OpenGL20:29
javispedroproper.20:29
troulouliouBCMM: http://wiki.maemo.org/OpenGL-ES20:30
BCMMjavispedro: opengl itself has never cared about windowing systems on any platform, right?20:30
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javispedroOpenGL is not a "complete" API in the sense that you cannot use it at all unless you have some extra platform depended API20:30
javispedroBCMM: exactly20:30
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BCMMjavispedro: and GLX doesn't do opengl-es?20:31
javispedroit can20:31
javispedrobut not on the N900.20:31
BCMMah... why not?20:31
javispedroprobably two reasons20:32
javispedroEGL is suggested for GLES, and no other platform used X11 with GLES20:32
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DocScrutinizer51hmm, raster would know some details. If you would"mt mind he's using 'u' instead of 'you'20:33
DocScrutinizer51alas somebody thought that's a reason to kick20:34
javispedroheh20:34
yaccOk, I guess pnatd is not open source, but I wonder if there is any documentation on it at all?20:35
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DocScrutinizer51none I know of20:35
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javispedroeither way, noone should know the obscure glx stuff20:35
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trouloulioujavispedro: iphone is using egl or glx or anything else ?20:38
javispedrotroulouliou: a propietary api20:39
javispedroit is usually called eagl20:39
trouloulioujavispedro : ok got it now20:40
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javispedrosimilar to egl btw, I'd call it "EGL on ObjC"20:40
javispedrobut not exactly the same20:40
troulouliouand egl is only compatible gles1.0 ?20:42
erstaziif I take the battery out, it flashes yellow/anber but if I put the battery back in, it flashes red.20:42
troulouliouor there is one for gles1.0 et another one for gles2.020:42
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ds3a20:42
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javispedrotroulouliou: you can potentially use EGL with any API20:43
javispedrogles, gl, vg...20:44
javispedroflashing red? heh.20:45
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javispedrobtw, capacitive stylus suck.20:49
javispedrothe required pressure is.... wow.20:49
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RST38hWon't any metal object work though?20:49
MohammadAGsed 's/stylus/*/' :P20:49
javispedroRST38h: you're not going to press any metal object so hard against the screen20:50
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javispedroI don't know why but it requires extreme pressure to be able to detect anything at all20:50
javispedro(save for one's finger)20:50
javispedroso much for capacitive.20:52
javispedroif this is the way the N9 is going to work...20:52
DocScrutinizererstazi: battery dead, or phone hw dead20:52
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: toldya capacitive sucks20:54
DocScrutinizertry wiener - works great and you can eat it20:55
RST38hnot after it touches that germ-infested touchscreen!20:55
javispedrobut I hoped to use a stylus for precision stuff / writing20:55
DocScrutinizerI'll come up with a mustard dispenser app for N920:55
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javispedroso the fact that it is hardly sensitive to a conductive stylus is shit.20:56
* RST38h wonders if terminals of charged capacitors will do the job20:56
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: capacitive needs a certain conduvtive *area* in close contact to screen20:56
myuu_hey anyone here having trouble wth Netstory?20:56
pupnikjavispedro: the screen denter20:57
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: no way for precision stuff on c-ts20:57
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RST38hMohammadAG is trolling lemming.20:58
DocScrutinizererstazi: try reflashing. If that doesn't help, try to get new battery. If that doesn't help, get a new device20:58
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RST38htrolling lemmings that is, sorry Mohammad20:58
javispedroI've seen too kinds of capacitive stylus, http://www.songtak.com.tw/downloadfiles/iphone%20stylus%20with%20gloves2.jpg (useless for writing), and http://www.redmondpie.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/CapacitiveStylus.jpg (with a "peephole", the one that requires insane pressure to work)20:58
RST38hhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=66226 <== Not even sure if he is serious :)20:58
javispedrojust send them a dcma c&d20:59
javispedro*dmca20:59
MohammadAGRST38h, I am, and it works :D20:59
troulouliouit is possivle to replace the boot-splash hand  by console output ?21:00
myuu_erstazi have you ever tried to jumpstart your batt.?21:00
RST38hMohammad: Too bad none of these folks can appreciate the beauty of this method =)21:00
MohammadAGIndeed :)21:00
nox-moin21:01
DocScrutinizermeh21:01
DocScrutinizermoin nox-21:01
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nox-moin DocScrutinizer21:02
DocScrutinizertroulouliou: yes, with a special fb-enabled kernel, that is notorious to reboot 5 times until it comes up21:02
troulouliouok thanks :)21:02
DocScrutinizertroulouliou: ask MohammadAG21:02
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erstaziDocScrutinizer: working on all of those.21:03
trouloulioui just got mine , is there anythong special to do so that when i turn it it activate the phoine ?21:03
MohammadAG/usr/share/hildon-welcome.d/ I think21:03
erstazimyuu_: working on that, thanks21:03
MohammadAGand /etc/hildon-welcome/21:03
erstaziDocScrutinizer: thanks21:03
trouloulioui have a friend that have that option21:03
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DocScrutinizerthere's no need to jumpstart battery. It's actually strongly deprecated and discourraged21:04
MohammadAGhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Customizing_Maemo#Welcome_screen21:05
jacekowskiyou know what21:05
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jacekowskiit's friday21:05
DocScrutinizerin fact a dead battery that causes red flashing might be rather dangerous to "jumpstart"21:05
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: actually21:05
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: noticed same thing/mood/symptoms some 6h ago :-P21:06
* MohammadAG starts saving for the Fender Rock Band 3 guitar21:06
MohammadAG$280 :(21:06
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG - the one man band21:06
* javispedro tries to install some 1998 game in IdeaPad, let's see if that works with reasonable performance21:06
DocScrutinizerwith drumset on back and guitar in his hands21:07
DocScrutinizerhihat on his head21:07
DocScrutinizerblowing a harp21:07
MohammadAGno, I use beat-maker on the N900 for drums21:07
RST38hMohammad: There is some experimental camera-based contraption that will let you do the air guitar -)21:07
MohammadAGRST38h, I don't know how to play a guitar, let alone an air one :P21:08
DocScrutinizeroh, so no drumset in red wood anymore?21:08
RST38hjavispedro: I assume you tried VGBA already?21:08
RST38hMohammad: But that is the whole point of the air guitar! =)21:08
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: air guitar is easy, it's never detuned :-P21:08
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troulouliouCOuld anybody tells me what is the best replacement for appManager cause here it takes like 2 minutes to refresh21:09
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troulouliouand synaptic can not be installed due to scrollkeeper broken package21:09
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, heh21:09
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: nad you always get the right note21:09
MohammadAGI'm impressed with the N8's 300kbps BT speeds (with my laptop)21:10
DocScrutinizeryou just need to lear to shake your head like an idiot :-P21:10
MohammadAGI wonder if it's BT 3.0 or something21:10
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, headbanging ftw :P21:10
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javispedroMohammadAG: 300? BT2.0 max should be 200 iirc21:11
DocScrutinizeralso air guitars are considerably lower price than fenders21:11
javispedroah21:11
javispedroa laptop with BT3.0? =)21:11
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: I have a few nice and cheap ones here, start at 20$21:12
MohammadAGno idea21:12
MohammadAGI just got 30021:12
MohammadAGis the N8 3.0?21:12
MohammadAGapparently, it is21:13
DocScrutinizererr, BT3.0?21:13
* DocScrutinizer scratches head21:13
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DocScrutinizerwasn't that the fake BT that'21:13
DocScrutinizers21:13
DocScrutinizeractually a WLAN?21:14
MohammadAGno, it's BT3.0 :)21:14
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DocScrutinizerBluetooth 3.0 + HS (auch Seattle Release genannt) ... Unterstützung eines zusätzlichen Highspeed-Kanals auf Basis von WLAN und UWB21:18
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DocScrutinizerhttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth21:18
javispedroAber ich spreche nür ein bischen Deutsch!21:19
javispedrohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth#Bluetooth_v3.0_.2B_HS21:20
comawhiteanyone using Qt in Maemo?21:20
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MohammadAGmost of the developers probably21:23
javispedrodammit21:24
javispedroanyone knows what's the protocol apple uses for cdrom sharing?21:24
javispedrototally offtopic question =)21:24
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MohammadAGjavispedro, probably sftp :P21:25
MohammadAGdubbed as iShareCDs21:25
DocScrutinizerN8 official Nokia specs: Bluetooth Spezifikation 2.1 + EDR (Enhanced Data Rate)21:25
kerioMohammadAG: i doubt it21:26
kerioit doesn't share files21:26
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: uh, so?21:27
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: eh, yes?21:28
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I see21:28
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javispedrosmb for sharing cds with a netbook plain sucks21:28
javispedrono block access, smb process hogs mount point, etc etc21:29
javispedros/smb process/smb process and/or windows client21:29
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: remote scsi?21:30
javispedrooooh21:31
javispedrothanksssssss21:31
javispedrothere's a windows client for that seems21:31
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I'm just babbling buzzwords21:32
javispedroexactly what I'm looking for, buzzwords to google21:32
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: btw "nür" is quite charming21:34
DocScrutinizerthe rest was too perfect to be true21:35
javispedroheh21:36
korhojoahmm. the n900 should be able to be upgraded to bt 3.0, right? it's got bt 2.1 with edr and wlan, which is all that is required21:40
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SpeedEvilkorhojoa: probably not.21:41
korhojoawhy not?21:41
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SpeedEvilkorhojoa: The BT and wlan interfaces are not designed to work together.21:42
korhojoaisn't that all about the drivers to make it happen?21:42
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SpeedEvilThey require very intimate scheduling to make it happen - below the level of what drivers do.21:42
korhojoaah, okay.21:42
kerio:(21:42
SpeedEvilThink more of 'machine gun firing through propellor' than 'flying in formation'21:42
korhojoaThat is an interesting way to describe it21:43
SpeedEvilI couldn't think of a car analogy. :(21:43
korhojoamore like firing injectors than changing gears21:44
SpeedEvilthat works21:44
* SpeedEvil has a open-source ECU he needs to put together.21:44
korhojoamegasquirt?21:45
SpeedEvilyes21:45
korhojoaheh. a friend of mine has built a few21:45
korhojoahe's got a go-fast button :D21:46
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SpeedEvil:)21:46
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korhojoafor racing, it totally screws up emissions but gives him like 35 hp21:46
SpeedEvilI was actually more wondering about go slow buttons.21:47
RST38hMhm, CNN is covering the black friday as if it were some highly important global event21:47
korhojoaahh, saving fuel?21:47
SpeedEvilAnd extra measures - for example - cylinder idling21:47
SpeedEvilyes21:47
SpeedEvilAlso pulse mode.21:47
SpeedEvilSomewhat similar to 'pulse and glide' - but implemented in the ECU21:47
korhojoainteresting21:47
SpeedEvilRun at near WOT all the time - and just pulse on and off.21:48
korhojoafiring only two cylinders at high rpms to save stuff?21:48
korhojoawhere stuff is fuel21:48
SpeedEvilthat sort of thing, yes.21:48
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slonopotamusis it possible to use n900 as a modem?22:04
BugBluebluetooth 'modem' or so?22:05
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slonopotamusyep, bt22:05
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jacekowskiSpeedEvil: thing is that isn't firmware in wlan and bt module upgradeable22:05
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: i would go with option that hardware is capable of doing it - just firmware would need changing22:06
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comawhitewhy is there ARM and X86?22:44
GAN900comawhite, different purposes?22:44
comawhitelike?22:45
GAN900comawhite, Wikipedia really sounds like a good place to start here.22:46
MohammadAGarchitecture is a good keyword22:47
GAN900Federal or Ranch?22:47
Nomait's like asking why there is Xbox and Playstation...22:47
MohammadAGno22:48
MohammadAGthat's a bad example :P22:48
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Nomawell, they are from different developers and do a nearly same thing but are not compatible with each other22:48
dRbiGgee22:49
dRbiGNoma: read about each of them :)22:49
Nomai know what the difference is, but i just tried to find an analogue22:49
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dRbiGoh, sorry, meant to addres comawhite22:50
dRbiGi guess i'm tired22:50
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comawhitei just need the gist of it ;P22:50
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dRbiGthe gist is that arm is embedded and x86 is old and not for embedded appilcations22:51
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comawhitesorry I mean why is there both x86 and arm on the maemo sdk22:52
dRbiGooo22:52
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comawhitesorry I should have been more clear22:52
dRbiGbecause you do developement on a 'big' computer with x8622:54
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KaRaan25ro_Hello!!!23:07
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KaRaan25ro_who can I ask about a probem I have with Canola2 on my N900?23:08
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KaRaan25ro_who can I ask about a probem I have with Canola2 on my N900?23:09
jacekowskiask here23:11
comawhiteKaRaan25ro_, no need to repeatedly ask23:11
KaRaan25ro_on the channal?23:11
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comawhiteno the phone23:11
comawhiteyes23:12
KaRaan25ro_ok23:12
KaRaan25ro_sorry... don't know the rules23:12
KaRaan25ro_so...23:12
comawhitei have no idea about your question23:12
KaRaan25ro_I have installed Canola2 on my N900 but since I couldn't find a version for N900 I have installed one for N810 and it works fine but I can't type23:13
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KaRaan25ro_the keyboard does not respond to the comands23:13
KaRaan25ro_so I can't login to Picasa, for example23:14
comawhiteblah scratchbox's site gives horrible speed23:15
KaRaan25ro_?23:15
comawhitei have a 3 GB/s connection and only getting 100-200KB/s23:15
jacekowski3GB/s?23:16
jacekowskiWOW23:17
KaRaan25ro_what is that have to do with the fact my N900 keyboard does not work in Canola2?23:17
jacekowskiwhole datacentre could run on that23:17
GAN900KaRaan25ro_, Enlightenment's keyboard input is broken.23:17
GAN900Dunno if there's a workaround23:18
KaRaan25ro_aha23:18
GAN900May be able to scare somebody up in #canola for specifics.23:18
KaRaan25ro_so there's no way I can make it work... the only option is just to forget about Canola on N90023:18
KaRaan25ro_no one on that channel says anything23:19
Choompeople aren't exactly there (or here) awaiting questions23:19
Choomregard IRC as you woul regard a sticky note23:20
Choompost the question and come back later to see if there's an answer23:20
KaRaan25ro_ok... well in the meantime all I have to do is NOT logout, right?23:20
GAN900What's the other one?23:20
GAN900Media Center?23:20
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KaRaan25ro_I have no idea... the last time I have used IRC was more than 10 years ago so I got the instructions to login here from someone I wrote an email to help me this this problem23:22
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corecodeanybody else also interested in having modest put sent mail on imap?23:34
nidOyes23:34
crashanddieKaRaan25ro_: right, basically, reponse times can vary from seconds to hours depending on the channel you're in23:34
corecodenidO: found some solution already?23:35
nidOand all the other things that would actually make it function as an imap mail client :<23:35
crashanddieKaRaan25ro_: it's friday evening in Europe though, so most people won't be very active23:35
corecodenidO: what is missing?23:35
nidOcorecode: currently my best solution to having a functioning imap client on my n900 is to simply carry me e90 as well.23:35
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corecodenidO: what is missing?23:36
KaRaan25ro_crashanddie: if I leave an email address for potential answers, do you think I'd have a chance of response?23:37
nidOwell as you say lack of sent messages on the server, imap-idle being disabled, no local folder subscriptions are the 3 major huge enormous flaws imo23:37
digitalstimulusdoes anyone know where PiTiVi config settings are located in ~/?23:37
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crashanddieKaRaan25ro_: slim to none23:37
digitalstimulussorry, wrong channel23:37
KaRaan25ro_great...23:37
KaRaan25ro_thanks anyway... I'll keep on searching23:38
corecodenidO: what are local folder subscriptions?23:38
nidOcorecode: being able to set which folders you're subscribed to locally rather than amending the server-side account-wide subscriptions23:38
crashanddieKaRaan25ro_: how about you restate your problem in a relatively short and concise sentence?23:38
KaRaan25ro_i can't type anything in Canola2 on my N900 :)23:39
corecodenidO: ah23:39
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crashanddieKaRaan25ro_: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=651123:40
povbotBug 6511: Unable to type text in Canola on N90023:40
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KaRaan25ro_I found that link a few seconds ago too23:41
KaRaan25ro_thank you!23:41
crashanddieKaRaan25ro_: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=429114#post42911423:41
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corecodeoh what?  remote drafts work, but remote sent mail doesn't?23:44
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KaRaan25ro_crashanddie: thank you for the link... I hope to find a way to repair it :)23:46
KaRaan25ro_Good night toall23:46
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SpeedEviljacekowski: The problem is that it requires very low-level coordination of packets and radios. I don't think the bluetooth module can do this.23:47
SpeedEviljacekowski: at least - typically. Also - the bluetooth module is much 'smarter' than the wlan one.23:47
SpeedEviljacekowski: It does quite a lot internally, whereas the wlan one is - more or less (on the transmit side) software builds a packet, and tells the hardware exactly when to transmit.23:48
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SpeedEviljacekowski: Also - session-migration between two modes is fun, and there may not be enough internal data exposed.23:49
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jacekowskithat's up to firmware to decide23:49
SpeedEviljacekowski: for example, this precludes GSM->wifi bridging.23:49
jacekowskiwhat is exposed23:49
SpeedEvilFirmware and hardware.23:49
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SpeedEvilAlso - assuming for a moment that it's a CSR radio - that I think it is - most of the bluetooth code is closed.23:51
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SpeedEvilYou can run software on the chip, but it's not allowed to see the insides of the bluetooth stack.23:51
SpeedEvilactually - no - it's broadcom23:52
SpeedEvildunno how that architecture works.23:52
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corecodeany hints how to change the brightness of the front camera?23:55
GAN900corecode, add a 12k23:59
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