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| TiagoTiago | I don't think the N73 can do bluetooth PAN | 00:00 |
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| koffeekan | oh man im trying to install tear on my 770 with os2007he, but every time i apt-get packages the file explorer wont open afterwards and the os crashes and will not boot back up | 00:28 |
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| johnsq | out of space | 00:29 |
| koffeekan | wow really? the internal flash is that small? | 00:29 |
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| johnsq | koffeekan: a possible error, you need to check it | 00:30 |
| koffeekan | how do i check it if the thing wont boot? | 00:30 |
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| koffeekan | so i guess installing to mmc would take care of this issue ? | 00:31 |
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| koffeekan | is there a ertain memory card that would work the best for installing the os to? | 00:32 |
| johnsq | test it, you can look if the file explorer shows the free space, i don't know where it is on the 770 | 00:32 |
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| johnsq | or if terminal -> df -h works | 00:33 |
| koffeekan | i cant open file explorer because it dosent even boot up at all, nokia screen, tries to boot, black flash, nokia screen, etc | 00:33 |
| koffeekan | w/e im just going to get a fatty 2gig card and install the os to it | 00:34 |
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| Tuco_maria | hey | 01:09 |
| Tuco_maria | when will pr 1.3 be available? | 01:09 |
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| BugBlauw | ~pr1.3 | 01:10 |
| infobot | pr1.3 is, like, a ban'able subject now..... | 01:10 |
| Tuco_maria | oh | 01:10 |
| Tuco_maria | thats bad news | 01:11 |
| BugBlauw | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=48901 | 01:12 |
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| Tuco_maria | does underclocking to 250Mhz improve battery duration? | 01:15 |
| johnx | only in very specific workloads | 01:16 |
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| luke-jr | Tuco_maria: also, 250 MHz can cause problems | 01:16 |
| Tuco_maria | so, should i stick with the stock clock speed of 600 Mhz? | 01:16 |
| luke-jr | 500 is better | 01:17 |
| luke-jr | 600 is overclocked | 01:17 |
| luke-jr | it won't last a year at 600 | 01:17 |
| luke-jr | why not just let cpufreq/Linux handle it dynamically? | 01:17 |
| johnx | keep in mind that there isn't one 'stock' clock speed. by default it scales over a range of clock speeds | 01:17 |
| luke-jr | I run Gentoo and my N900 uses 600 MHz less than 10% of the time | 01:17 |
| sandstorm | won't last a year at 600mhz? wow.. | 01:18 |
| johnx | if it's running constantly at 600MHz 24/7 | 01:18 |
| luke-jr | a large majortiy fo the time, it's idle | 01:18 |
| sandstorm | very interesting news for me, I'd expected more | 01:19 |
| sandstorm | can you run gentoo on n900 with the phone capabilities? | 01:19 |
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| Tuco_maria | the motorola milestone uses the same silicon as the n900, and it runs at 600 mhz | 01:20 |
| luke-jr | sandstorm: depends what you call phone capaibilities | 01:20 |
| luke-jr | sandstorm: I have data working. | 01:20 |
| luke-jr | and data is all the service I have to test with | 01:21 |
| luke-jr | Tuco_maria: not 24/7 | 01:21 |
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| sandstorm | phone calls, smses and other telecommunications stuff you know. are there proper applicatons on gentoo ? | 01:21 |
| luke-jr | sandstorm: there's KDE... | 01:21 |
| kerio | lol | 01:21 |
| luke-jr | sandstorm: for voice/SMS, you'll have to ask someone else though | 01:21 |
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| luke-jr | I don't have those (useless) services | 01:21 |
| sandstorm | :P | 01:22 |
| sandstorm | can you make phone calls with KDE ? | 01:22 |
| * kerio has vivid memories of running gnome and kde on a machine with 384MBs of ram | 01:22 | |
| sandstorm | and receive them | 01:22 |
| sandstorm | and boot your SIM card? authenticate yourself? connect to the GSM provider? with gentoo ? | 01:22 |
| Tuco_maria | i like the hildon interface, more than kde or gnome | 01:23 |
| sandstorm | if it is somehow possible, I, myself a gentoo user as well. | 01:23 |
| sandstorm | on my laptop though | 01:24 |
| sandstorm | and its my favourite distro btw. | 01:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | Tuco_maria: stock kernel clocks all available speeds from 250 to 600, depending on rather reasonable parameter evaluation, to get the best of performance and battery savings in all common usage profiles | 01:24 |
| Tuco_maria | so, it`s impossible to have better battery times? | 01:25 |
| johnx | not impossible | 01:25 |
| johnx | you could do some research with powertop | 01:25 |
| johnx | find out how long your phone spends in each power state | 01:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, it's simple to have great battery standby times, by simply using proper designed software that doesn't run circles for nothing | 01:26 |
| johnx | then try and write a better algorithm for scaling the CPU up and down depending on the software your run | 01:26 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer: why do you hate pulseaudio and tracker, DocScrutinizer? | 01:26 |
| kerio | ;) | 01:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | johnx: eh? | 01:27 |
| johnx | DocScrutinizer, elaborate | 01:27 |
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| Tuco_maria | i use n900 mostly to browse the web and send/receive sms, ocasiomally some voice calls | 01:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | johnx: do you really think that's a appropriate task for somebody asking if downclocking CPU to 250 saves battery? | 01:28 |
| johnx | DocScrutinizer, I'm trying to get across how much Nokia has already optimized this. It's not like they just forgot that running the CPU at a slower speed would save battery | 01:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Tuco_maria: if you have battery standby time issues, it's quite usualy caused by some rogue software, or a bug somewhere. Try to find which processes keep the CPU running, or do large amounts of internet traffic (both eating battery like mad) | 01:30 |
| Tuco_maria | the only software i`ve installed are firefox, fmms, angry birds and the plastic theme | 01:31 |
| Tuco_maria | maybe one of the is buggy | 01:31 |
| TiagoTiago_ | i think i read somewhere someone complaining that Frefox stays running after you close it | 01:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | Tuco_maria: for some reference, to give you an idea: my battery was at 60% after 24h of online via WLAN, with IRC by xchat on 8 chan, and a script cosntantly running and displaying my real battery status every 15s | 01:32 |
| Tuco_maria | i would be happy with that, mine is lasting about one day | 01:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | Tuco_maria: first ssh to the device, and run htop. See if any process (except htop itself :-D ) is constantly eating CPU time | 01:33 |
| Tuco_maria | ok | 01:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer | then run powertop and make sure your cpu is mostly idle, see http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management#Powertop | 01:36 |
| sandstorm | I don't have powertop installed as default, what may I do for that? | 01:36 |
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| sandstorm | and I don't know why it is not installed as default btw. | 01:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | find it in extras-devel, or tools repo | 01:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | it isn't installed by default | 01:37 |
| sandstorm | hmm | 01:37 |
| johnx | it should also give you a more clear idea of how the N900 does power saving, in terms of not just 'under'-clocking, but also actually suspending the CPU and turning it back on before the next timer expires | 01:39 |
| johnx | s/it/powertop | 01:39 |
| TiagoTiago_ | the substitution thing seems to not be working anymore | 01:40 |
| Tuco_maria | so, overclocking it wouldnt decrease battery life as well right? | 01:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://maemo.org/packages/view/powertop/ | 01:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it will. Not only battery standby time, but also CPU livetime | 01:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | life* | 01:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer | overclocking is a really really bad idea, if you don't know *exactly* what and why you're doing | 01:42 |
| johnx | Tuco_maria, some people have claimed to not lose too much battery life when allowing a higher 'maximum' clock speed, but in my case I don't feel like it's worth the risk | 01:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | on a system devel level of understanding | 01:42 |
| Tuco_maria | i will leave it as it is then | 01:43 |
| TiagoTiago_ | and even knowing enough, there is still the risk the processor you got was one with the lowest score and will fry much earlier than others | 01:44 |
| johnx | Tuco_maria, I think that's smart :) | 01:44 |
| TiagoTiago_ | was among the ones* | 01:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Tuco_maria: look, if TI and Nokia would have seen any benefit in allowing it, they'd have a config option in settings, like "long standby"<->"super fast execution" | 01:46 |
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| Tuco_maria | maybe you are right... | 01:46 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | wait, we can't trust Nokia 100% on their decisions, there are many thigns people spot that Nokia didn't put enough work on | 01:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | yayaya | 01:47 |
| johnx | in terms of power saving stuff, I tend to trust Nokia | 01:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | I even more tend to trust TI | 01:48 |
| johnx | TiagoTiago_, have you read any of their white papers or watched one of their presentations on 'race to idle'? | 01:48 |
| johnx | really quite cool stuff | 01:48 |
| TiagoTiago_ | not really | 01:48 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | i mean, i have not read it | 01:50 |
| TiagoTiago_ | is it on Youtube? | 01:50 |
| * johnx digs it up | 01:50 | |
| DocScrutinizer | and in all their whitepapers about OMAP and SmartReflex, Ti nowhere mentions any need for user/manufacturer to make a tradeoff between execution speed and power consumption. It's always like "this technology allows fastest execution speeds on lowest possible power consumption", no either / or | 01:50 |
| TiagoTiago_ | thanx | 01:50 |
| sandstorm | DocScrutinizer: thank you very much for info and link | 01:51 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | isn't SmartReflex turned off? I remember i once had a program for setting max clock speed that had a checkbox ofr SR that was unmarked, and when i marked it it made the device crashj | 01:51 |
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| johnx | TiagoTiago_, http://free-electrons.com/blog/fosdem-2009-videos/ , advanced power management for omap3 | 01:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: SmartReflex is partially turned off, due to some hw flaw which causes instabilities | 01:52 |
| johnx | click the 'video' link below it | 01:52 |
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| sandstorm | so enabling SmartReflex fully can cause instability? | 01:53 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | why did they let hardware with such a flaw be released as a finished product? | 01:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: to be more specific, I think one particular function detail of the bunch of measures sailing under "SmartReflex" was disabled | 01:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | sandstorm: yes | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | possibly even hw damage | 01:54 |
| sandstorm | there's a tweak going around on the net echoing 1s to two configuration settings to enable SmartReflex, so you dont suggest that? | 01:54 |
| johnx | TiagoTiago_, happens all the time in the real world | 01:54 |
| TiagoTiago_ | Who's fault is the hardware has that flaw? | 01:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | sandstorm: no, I don't suggest that | 01:54 |
| johnx | dunno. could be the board Nokia designed or the chip from Ti, or the core from ARM for all I know | 01:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | sandstorm: there's been reasons why it's been disabled | 01:55 |
| TiagoTiago_ | the audio int hat video is horrible,, way too much echo and dist5ortion, very hard to understand anything :( | 01:55 |
| johnx | TiagoTiago_, I think there might be a summary of the talk somewhere | 01:55 |
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| sandstorm | in addition, there are tweaks to make swappiness value 15 or 30 other than 100(default), briefly; what do you say about this thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=61679 | 01:56 |
| johnx | http://lwn.net/Articles/318727/ then scroll down to 'power management in nokia's next maemo device' | 01:56 |
| TiagoTiago_ | do you think that swappolube thing is safe? | 01:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: there's flaws in (virtually) every hardware | 01:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: if it's causing hw damages, then odds are it had been noticed way too late | 01:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, for instabilities same applies | 01:57 |
| TiagoTiago_ | did NOkia get a discount on the flawed chips? | 01:58 |
| johnx | TiagoTiago_, sandstorm, a much more interesting discussion on swappiness: http://kerneltrap.org/node/3000 | 01:58 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I guess it's not the chips that are flawed, but the layout or hw design | 01:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: if you're really intersted... I may elaborate | 01:58 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | sure | 01:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | all the following : disclaimer: AIUI & AFAIK | 01:59 |
| TiagoTiago_ | what does AIUI stands for? | 01:59 |
| johnx | ~aiui | 02:00 |
| infobot | i heard aiui is As I Understand It | 02:00 |
| TiagoTiago_ | IF the N900 was a car, would it be recalled due to that flaw? | 02:00 |
| TiagoTiago_ | i see | 02:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | The smartreflex bit that's been disabled is doing automatic switching of core voltage, to minimize power drop in the SoC | 02:00 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | ~SoC | 02:00 |
| infobot | well, soc is System On Chip - many embedded cpus include a variety of peripherals as well which makes them more than just a CPU. | 02:00 |
| TiagoTiago_ | hm | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | now the regulators that do that voltage regulation are in GAIA chip | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | the power rails go to OMAP SoC | 02:01 |
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| sandstorm | ~gaia | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | the voltages there are changing very fast sometimes | 02:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | twl4030 GAIA OMAP companion chip with power management and otter supplementary functions like audio, keyboard etc | 02:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | now if the traces running from GAIA to SoC are too long, or have too sharp bends, or some capacitor there doesn't exactly meet the specs, or whatever... | 02:03 |
| lcuk | so this smartreflex is uber beardy type folks optimisations | 02:03 |
| lcuk | kinda like taking the mirrors off your car to make it more streamlined? | 02:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | odds are the voltage can't be regulated exactly and fast enough | 02:03 |
| johnx | lcuk, as is all modern mobile power management stuff | 02:03 |
| lcuk | in a way yes | 02:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | so CPU is operating on wrong voltage for a few milisecons, during clock speed transitions | 02:04 |
| lcuk | but if we have coped for this long with out it etc | 02:04 |
| johnx | lcuk, eh? really? you're against better power management? | 02:04 |
| johnx | srsly? | 02:04 |
| lcuk | not at all | 02:04 |
| lcuk | but i remember reading that bug report and that it did not work for everyone and caused instability when people turned it on | 02:05 |
| lcuk | so i just didnt go further down that particular path | 02:05 |
| johnx | yeah, it's called 'the bleeding edge' | 02:05 |
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| johnx | next time they'll get it right and it'll save us another 1% | 02:05 |
| lcuk | of course! | 02:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: so when eventually it became apparent the dynamic core voltage regulation caused such problems, maybe even defects in SoC, it was best decision to disable it and live with that 1% shorter standby time this will cause | 02:06 |
| TiagoTiago_ | a kinda offtopic question that i've just reembered, would the speeds achived by waving the N900 fast with your hand be enough to affect the signals received due to doppler? | 02:07 |
| TiagoTiago_ | I see | 02:07 |
| johnx | no | 02:07 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, at the first linuxtag event I went to with some folks | 02:07 |
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| johnx | your hands don't move at a significant fraction of c | 02:07 |
| lcuk | we were walking around and swinging our n810s around | 02:07 |
| lcuk | to get gps | 02:07 |
| lcuk | logging about 80mph | 02:07 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago_: yes - but only for GPS. | 02:07 |
| TiagoTiago_ | lol | 02:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: there are a lot of other functions all labeled SmartReflex, that are not related to dynamic core voltage, and those can't be switched off by this sysnode writing 0 | 02:07 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago_: that's how it works | 02:07 |
| sandstorm | can I please get your advices about these tweaks: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=815333&postcount=54 | 02:08 |
| lcuk | no sandstorm | 02:08 |
| lcuk | go and read the swappolube thread :P | 02:08 |
| lcuk | they have the same things in i think | 02:08 |
| sandstorm | letme check | 02:08 |
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| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: once again, all this isn't backed up by any insider knowledge, but results from mere deduction from the known facts | 02:09 |
| TiagoTiago_ | would you consider the stuff the swapplube does to be safe? | 02:09 |
| TiagoTiago_ | i see | 02:09 |
| johnx | sandstorm, I posted a link earlier about swappiness. please check read through it first. it's not nearly as clear-cut as you might think | 02:09 |
| nox- | moin | 02:10 |
| sandstorm | ah yes they are the same but I had not seen that swappolube thread before I read those tweaks on another thread. | 02:10 |
| sandstorm | johnx: I've read the introduction but not the e-mails, it will take some time :) | 02:11 |
| johnx | basically, what it comes down to is that different people want different behavior out of the linux VM subsystem | 02:11 |
| johnx | changing swappiness is totally safe, but it might not do what you want it to | 02:12 |
| johnx | also: it's not AI. it can't guess what you want to keep in memory at all costs and what you wish wasn't cached | 02:12 |
| TiagoTiago_ | what about the other tweaks the swappolube thing does? | 02:12 |
| lcuk | sandstorm, the swappolube package pulls together a few of these tweaks | 02:12 |
| sandstorm | I just want all the applications reside in RAM until its critically full, is not that rational ? | 02:12 |
| SpeedEvil | no. | 02:12 |
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| lcuk | into a nicer reinstallable, and hence reproducable | 02:13 |
| lcuk | package | 02:13 |
| lcuk | :) | 02:13 |
| SpeedEvil | sandstorm: It assumes that the applications are written so that the working setr can always fit in RAM. | 02:13 |
| sandstorm | can you enlighten me with that ? | 02:13 |
| johnx | sandstorm, I know that LKML thread is long, but I think it might really help you understand the situation better than we could explain it | 02:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Gentle reminder to everyone to vote if you're eligible. | 02:13 |
| SpeedEvil | sandstorm: Plus - there are bits of code that are run once and never used again. | 02:13 |
| lcuk | sandstorm, because application allocations and deallocations are sometimes silly | 02:13 |
| sandstorm | johnx: I will read it tomorrow :) | 02:14 |
| lcuk | and some apps like to grab 50mb for something used rarely | 02:14 |
| johnx | sandstorm, then I'll answer questions about swappiness tomorrow ;) | 02:14 |
| sandstorm | ah allright | 02:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: post link! :-D | 02:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://maemo.org/vote/ | 02:14 |
| sandstorm | since it is 2 am here my mind could get confused :) | 02:14 |
| lcuk | whats the link for GeneralAntilles ? | 02:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~community-council | 02:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~council | 02:15 |
| * GeneralAntilles smacks infobot | 02:15 | |
| lcuk | ~government | 02:15 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, government is broken. It doesn't work. It doesn't keep our streets safe and it doesn't educate our children. Government is good at only one thing: It breaks your legs, hands you a pair of crutches, and says, 'See, without us you wouldn't be able to walk.'. Libertarians need to STFU | 02:15 |
| lcuk | hmm | 02:15 |
| TiagoTiago_ | lol | 02:15 |
| lcuk | infobot isnt as nice as he should be | 02:15 |
| sandstorm | lol | 02:15 |
| sandstorm | Zeitgeist in action :) | 02:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~council is The Maemo Community Council is a five-person body chosen by the Maemo community. The Council's mission is to "represent the Maemo community's best interests to Nokia, and to act as a community conduit for Nokia-generated information." http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council | 02:16 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles: okay | 02:16 |
| johnx | that's what happens when an AI like infobot rises to consciousness in an IRC channel ... | 02:16 |
| lcuk | no, cross channel factoids | 02:16 |
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| sandstorm | okay ? :P | 02:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Debian doesn't have a council. | 02:17 |
| * SpeedEvil is re-watching Babylon 5. | 02:18 | |
| SpeedEvil | Todays was De'lens expulsion from the Grey Council. | 02:18 |
| SpeedEvil | I imagine it's like that. | 02:18 |
| TiagoTiago_ | I think a problem with the N900 is it has just enough resources to make developers feel like they don't need to worry about being carefull with resource consumption whie still not having enough resources to spare when under anything above low load | 02:19 |
| SpeedEvil | yes | 02:19 |
| SpeedEvil | exactly | 02:19 |
| SpeedEvil | They test their app, and it works. | 02:19 |
| SpeedEvil | They ship it. | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Twice the RAM would work wonders. | 02:19 |
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| *** FIQ|n900 has joined #maemo | 02:19 | |
| sandstorm | thanks for all the enlightenment, I am done for tonight, let me continue the research tomorrow :) goodnight | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | But it should be advertised as 256MB | 02:20 |
| SpeedEvil | They don't test it with media player in the background, when the user decides to take a picture. | 02:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | and the OS should do its damndest to spoof devs into thinking it's 256MB. | 02:20 |
| johnx | 'night sandstorm. catch you soon | 02:20 |
| TiagoTiago_ | rest well | 02:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: (infobot isnt as nice as he should be) she :-D | 02:21 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, huh? how would it do that? | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, I'm just the idea guy. | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Implementation is somebody else's job. | 02:21 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, <_< | 02:22 |
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| SpeedEvil | Ok - I'm about to vote, does anyone want my paypal address? | 02:22 |
| TiagoTiago_ | provind no virtual memory and forcing developers to implement virtual memory funcitonality from scratch? | 02:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | "Using Qt has cut our development time in half, because we can build one UI in Qt and target both Symbian^3 as well as MeeGo." | 02:23 |
| * GeneralAntilles groans. | 02:23 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Just like cutting Ovi Map's dev time in half, eh? | 02:23 |
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| SpeedEvil | Okaay. I go to maemo.org/vote - enter the credentials, and it's blank. | 02:24 |
| SpeedEvil | hmm | 02:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Got any fancy noscript things going on? | 02:24 |
| SpeedEvil | Ah - redoing worked | 02:24 |
| SpeedEvil | no | 02:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Needs a bit of js, I think. | 02:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah, well then. | 02:24 |
| SpeedEvil | I am on mobile, my CISP may be doing silly things | 02:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: now THAT's as simple as it gets, no? Just make applauncher set sane ulimits to each app started :-D | 02:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 02:26 |
| * GeneralAntilles grumbles about EtherPad not working. | 02:26 | |
| SpeedEvil | The kernel is patched to detect stalls. | 02:26 |
| SpeedEvil | When these happen, the applications contending for resources are noted. | 02:26 |
| SpeedEvil | The pay of each dev is docked for every contention. | 02:27 |
| SpeedEvil | And all devs are given really large nerf bats. | 02:27 |
| TiagoTiago | how hard would it be for Nokia to makke a device that comes from the factory with dualboot MeeGo/Symbian^3 ? | 02:27 |
| * DocScrutinizer googles nerf bat | 02:27 | |
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| johnx | TiagoTiago, not hard from a technical standpoint. very hard from a 'getting it past marketing standpoint' | 02:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | hehe | 02:28 |
| TiagoTiago | why? | 02:28 |
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| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: managment is not intrerested in cool stuff. | 02:28 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 02:28 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: that 5% of users may be interested in. | 02:28 |
| johnx | because people who buy phones don't even understand the concept of an OS, let alone the concept that you could have two, but only one can run at the same time | 02:29 |
| SpeedEvil | Especially if it may cause the 95% of users to call support when their system is doing somerthing unexpected. | 02:29 |
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| lcuk | DocScrutinizer, wheres is the factoid database maintained (apart from individual commands here) | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | and 99% of users understanding the concept of OS are going W*T*F???? | 02:30 |
| TiagoTiago | really? I was thinking having Symbian avaible would reduce significantly the amount of whinning about the N900 | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: it lives on a (MySQL?) db on the server where infobot lives | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | oh maintained. No idea | 02:31 |
| lcuk | is there a webui to get a dump of its complete contents? | 02:31 |
| johnx | TiagoTiago, you should probably just ask Nokia directly | 02:32 |
| TiagoTiago | those who want a simple smartphone ready to run out of the boc without all the hackery would use Symbian and the rest of us would still have our rooted mobile computer | 02:32 |
| TiagoTiago | box* | 02:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | I think it must have a huge heritage from some smart linguistic project, and then gathered factiods from 200 chan over several years | 02:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: (webui) nope | 02:32 |
| TiagoTiago | ~knowledge | 02:33 |
| infobot | somebody said knowledge was power | 02:33 |
| TiagoTiago | ... | 02:33 |
| * SpeedEvil holds up his anonymous token. | 02:33 | |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: I asked Tim about mirroring the root instance of infobot, but he wasn't nterested and also said he'd not give out he whole database before he 'cleaned it for privacy reasons' | 02:34 |
| * lindi- wonders if one could just run both symbian and android on top of meego without any dualboot business | 02:34 | |
| johnx | lindi-, yes. it's called virtualization. xen was working on an ARM port. so is vmware | 02:34 |
| TiagoTiago | having a Symbian VM would be usefull | 02:34 |
| johnx | that would be a lot of fun trying to figure out which process is keeping the CPU awake though | 02:35 |
| johnx | also, I think that's about 5 years out in terms of CPU power | 02:35 |
| lindi- | johnx: at least for android something lighter should work | 02:35 |
| TiagoTiago | Android programs mostly run with that proprietary Java-like VM, no? | 02:35 |
| johnx | lindi-, I'd bet not. Android tends to rely on a fairly customized kernel with patches that haven't/can't go upstream | 02:35 |
| lindi- | johnx: and vmware is non-free so it does not count :) | 02:35 |
| johnx | lindi-, they're closest to market though, or at least claim to be | 02:36 |
| BCMM_ | android's kernel is a fork rather than a patchset now | 02:36 |
| johnx | BCMM_, that makes me really sad | 02:36 |
| johnx | I was really hoping they could come to some agreement ... | 02:36 |
| TiagoTiago | itms gonna just drift away over time or are they gonna keep porting patches ito it? | 02:36 |
| BCMM_ | i like it - makes it easier to counter those who say "but it's linux!" | 02:37 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 02:37 |
| SpeedEvil | It is good for the android devs to be in a ghetto. | 02:37 |
| BCMM_ | in a way that doesn't rapidly lead to "what's libc?" | 02:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | johnx: vmware on ARM? o.O | 02:37 |
| TiagoTiago | why? | 02:37 |
| johnx | BCMM_, yeah, but I was hoping for being able to run a 'standard' linux distro on hardware that already had android | 02:37 |
| SpeedEvil | That way they can get funding for porting android-linux to devices. | 02:37 |
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| johnx | DocScrutinizer, let me find the article | 02:37 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: lol | 02:38 |
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| luke-jr | I think MeeGo is planning to actually be a Linux OS | 02:38 |
| luke-jr | unlike Maemo | 02:38 |
| * asj chortles | 02:39 | |
| wmarone | it is, if they can figure out how to deal with the repositories :) | 02:39 |
| luke-jr | johnx: OpenVZ should work? | 02:39 |
| FIQ|n900 | isn't maemo running on a linux kernel? | 02:39 |
| FIQ|n900 | as in, a real one? | 02:39 |
| luke-jr | FIQ|n900: a fork | 02:39 |
| luke-jr | like Android | 02:39 |
| FIQ|n900 | oh | 02:39 |
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| FIQ|n900 | screw it | 02:39 |
| lindi- | johnx: I was thinking one could just offer the api used by android apps and forget android power management | 02:39 |
| TiagoTiago | is there a way to have the WiFi icon in thr status bar reflect the current signal quality (the amount of arcs/bars changing depending on it) ? | 02:39 |
| luke-jr | FIQ|n900: well, Maemo is dead. MeeGo is supposed to work with Linux. so.. | 02:40 |
| johnx | FIQ|n900, luke-jr is known to exagerate | 02:40 |
| luke-jr | johnx: not exaggerating | 02:40 |
| BCMM_ | uname... | 02:40 |
| luke-jr | Android and Maemo are on the same level as far as kernel | 02:40 |
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| BCMM_ | maemo has a pathced kernel, like all major distros | 02:41 |
| johnx | luke-jr, uhm. really not. Most maemo apps can be run on a totally vanilla kernel | 02:41 |
| BCMM_ | patched | 02:41 |
| lindi- | johnx: symbian probably would require real virtualization | 02:41 |
| luke-jr | johnx: that's the other end of Maemo | 02:41 |
| TiagoTiago | Maemo still can run progs made for regular Linux with little modfication | 02:41 |
| BCMM_ | android has mangled some core stuff | 02:41 |
| BCMM_ | that upstream has rejected with a "wtf" | 02:41 |
| luke-jr | as I said *as far as kernel* | 02:41 |
| johnx | luke-jr, so you mean the N900 has a kernel with significant patches to support its hardware? aaah, why didn't you say so? ;) | 02:41 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: so did Maemo | 02:41 |
| johnx | DocScrutinizer, http://www.itpro.co.uk/609997/video-two-operating-systems-on-one-phone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNo6pn-dnSQ | 02:42 |
| luke-jr | johnx: also userland APIs | 02:42 |
| luke-jr | johnx: just like Android | 02:42 |
| BCMM_ | correct me if i'm wrong, but maemo's kernel patches are pretty much all device driver stuff, right? | 02:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | johnx: thanks | 02:42 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: no | 02:42 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: even if you port mainline Linux 100% to the N900 hardware, it will not boot Maemo userland | 02:42 |
| BCMM_ | so what else is there? | 02:42 |
| BCMM_ | why not? | 02:43 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: various userspace API changes | 02:43 |
| johnx | luke-jr, sorry, you're saying the maemo kernel has patches to support userland APIs. please back up that claim with examples | 02:43 |
| luke-jr | johnx: /proc/bootreason | 02:43 |
| TiagoTiago | Why they decided to not use vanilla? | 02:43 |
| johnx | yeah. I'm going to go ahead and call that trivial | 02:43 |
| johnx | next? | 02:43 |
| BCMM_ | that's a proc entry | 02:43 |
| luke-jr | johnx: non-trivial enough that Maemo will never boot with normal Linux | 02:43 |
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| luke-jr | BCMM_: which is a kernel<->userspace API | 02:43 |
| BCMM_ | i suppose it's technically a userland api, but... | 02:43 |
| asj | johnx: he's held this stance for 2 years, what's the point of even discussing it? | 02:44 |
| BCMM_ | also, a load of device drivers on many platforms have them | 02:44 |
| johnx | asj, good point. I just don't like him biasing people who honestly don't know (such as FIQ|n900) | 02:44 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: just modify maemo to cope with lack of bootreason? | 02:44 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: Maemo isn't open source | 02:44 |
| luke-jr | that part might be, not sure | 02:45 |
| asj | johnx: that's why it's easier just to point a finger and laugh, it's IRC after all | 02:45 |
| * johnx points a finger, laughs at luke-jr for being a zealot | 02:45 | |
| luke-jr | these are problems MeeGo is supposed to address | 02:45 |
| * asj high fives johnx ;) | 02:45 | |
| johnx | asj, you were right ;) I concede the point | 02:45 |
| BCMM_ | what exactly does bootreason do? | 02:45 |
| wmarone | it tells you the cause of the last reboot | 02:45 |
| TiagoTiago | is Maemo not being OSS compatible with the license of the linux stuff that was used as base? | 02:45 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: nothing useful | 02:45 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: it's legal in Maemo 5 AFAIK | 02:46 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: but closed still means we can't change those parts | 02:46 |
| johnx | anyways, channel is too distracting for now. catch you all later | 02:46 |
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| TiagoTiago | cya | 02:46 |
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| asj | BCMM_: it tells you why the system rebooted last, if it was a crash or normal startup | 02:46 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: then why worry about it? i would not recommend running closed source software anyway :) | 02:46 |
| wmarone | it was quite handy back in december when 32wd_to was causing excessive reboots | 02:47 |
| BCMM_ | luke-jr: do you consider all patchsets forks? for example, is TuxOnIce linux? | 02:47 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: it is impossible to not, on N900 | 02:47 |
| TiagoTiago | what is the license? is it more than one? | 02:47 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: depends on the mergability, etc | 02:47 |
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| lindi- | luke-jr: i heard rumors that even battery charging now works with free software | 02:47 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: TuxOnIce is a branch AFAIK | 02:47 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: much is just copyright Nokia AFAIK | 02:48 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: is that done? | 02:48 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: but would be nice to hear what is missing | 02:48 |
| TiagoTiago | no contagious licenses? | 02:48 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I know it's possible, but AFAIK nobody has actually put it into practice yet | 02:48 |
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| lindi- | luke-jr: with some uglyish shell script afaik yrses | 02:48 |
| luke-jr | shell script doesn't do everything IIRC | 02:49 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: ok | 02:49 |
| TiagoTiago | lin,,, what are those non-ascii chars in your last msg? | 02:49 |
| luke-jr | in any case, some parts we *can't* replace, even if we had source | 02:49 |
| luke-jr | because the OMAP won't run it unsigned | 02:49 |
| TiagoTiago | ok the one before the last | 02:49 |
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| SpeedEvil | Is it confirmed that that is in fact true? | 02:50 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: jacekowski did AFAIK | 02:50 |
| SpeedEvil | hmm | 02:50 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: i could live with a non-free boot loader perhaps if it was the piece you had in mind | 02:50 |
| luke-jr | also, MeeGo has a special NOLO for qemu | 02:50 |
| luke-jr | because the N900 one won't run on qemu due to signing stuff | 02:50 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: as a temporary compromise | 02:50 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah - non-free bootloadrr foresn't bother me at all | 02:51 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: it's annoying in practice | 02:51 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: sure | 02:51 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: we can't boot multiple kernels in any sane way right now | 02:51 |
| TiagoTiago | People did figure out how to install unsigned progs in that Symbian that requred it, my hope is someone will eventually do it for the N900 hardware ass well | 02:51 |
| * luke-jr would like to replace cellmo firmware too | 02:51 | |
| wmarone | TiagoTiago: there's no problem running stuff on the N900, unless you're a zealot like luke-jr | 02:51 |
| luke-jr | think of the battery life we could save by moving some timed stuff to it | 02:51 |
| luke-jr | wmarone: tell that to NITdroid and MeeGo | 02:52 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Well... | 02:52 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Idle I get 6mA or so. | 02:52 |
| wmarone | both of which run? | 02:52 |
| luke-jr | wmarone: both of which require ugly hacks to boot an alternate kernel | 02:52 |
| wmarone | erm | 02:52 |
| wmarone | how so? | 02:52 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: That is 8 or so days. | 02:52 |
| TiagoTiago | wmarone, we can't replace things like the cell modem firmware for example | 02:52 |
| wmarone | irrelevant | 02:52 |
| luke-jr | not-quite working uboot and kexec | 02:52 |
| wmarone | luke-jr: uboot is a hack to make it easy to load the meego/nitdroid kernels | 02:53 |
| luke-jr | wmarone: it fails at making it easy so far | 02:53 |
| lindi- | wmarone: i do not think he qualifies as a true zealot if he runs non-free stuff in such great numbers willingly :) | 02:53 |
| luke-jr | you have to opent he N900 up to change kernels | 02:53 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I don't. | 02:53 |
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| wmarone | luke-jr: wow, then how the hell does power-kernel work? | 02:53 |
| luke-jr | wmarone: it replaces the normal Maemo one | 02:53 |
| luke-jr | wmarone: as mentioned earlier, Maemo won't boot with a normal Linux. | 02:54 |
| luke-jr | MeeGo won't boot with a Maemo kernel | 02:54 |
| wmarone | ... | 02:54 |
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| luke-jr | NITdroid either | 02:54 |
| wmarone | you're mixing stuff up here | 02:54 |
| luke-jr | there is no single kernel that will run all 3 | 02:54 |
| wmarone | but nonetheless you can replace the kernel and boot pretty much any OS, right? | 02:54 |
| luke-jr | wmarone: you mean flash a different kernel every boot? no thanks | 02:54 |
| wmarone | oh well then get to working on u-boot | 02:55 |
| wmarone | they only just started, last I checked | 02:55 |
| TiagoTiago | how hard would it be to have a single ernel that changes itself depending on what is using it? | 02:55 |
| luke-jr | wouldn't have it, if NOLO wasn't locked down | 02:55 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: would be interesting to hear what non-free software you still depend on n900. i am planning to buy one if it becomes possible to use with free software | 02:55 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: that's what multiboot is | 02:55 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: there is, and never will be, an open SGX driver | 02:55 |
| TiagoTiago | i thought multiboot used separated partitions each with its own kernel | 02:56 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: never say never :) | 02:56 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: exactly | 02:56 |
| wmarone | luke-jr likes to speak in absolutes | 02:56 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: why not? | 02:56 |
| wmarone | luke-jr: because you don't know the future. stop speaking as if you do | 02:56 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: ImgTec is completely hostile to free software | 02:56 |
| BCMM_ | luke-jr: tuxonice is a patch | 02:56 |
| TiagoTiago | i said a sing.le kernel that changes itself to fit the different OS' using it | 02:57 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: distributed as a patch maybe, but nobody writes patches | 02:57 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: anyways doesnt a plain framebuffer work? | 02:57 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: not hard at all, but I'm pretty sure nobody has interest in tht | 02:57 |
| TiagoTiago | why? | 02:57 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: for 2D perhaps | 02:57 |
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| lindi- | luke-jr: yes, is that not enough? | 02:57 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: because it would be high maintenance | 02:57 |
| BCMM_ | luke-jr: is a kernel that is patched with tuxonice still linux, by your standards? | 02:57 |
| TiagoTiago | hm | 02:57 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: not for gaming | 02:57 |
| wmarone | lindi-: 2D isn't enough though, Maemo 5 and meego both require OpenGL ES support | 02:58 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: technically no, but since it's still compatible, it is for all *practical* purposes | 02:58 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: ok but at least you could run a free system? | 02:58 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: not sure... | 02:59 |
| TiagoTiago | talking about that, do you know of a program, like a demo, that shows all the potential of OpenGL EsS on the N900 ( or tries to) ? | 02:59 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: been a while since I booted direct to Gentoo | 02:59 |
| TiagoTiago | ES | 02:59 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: usually booting Gentoo goes through Maemo's bootmenu | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | (<luke-jr> lindi-: we can't boot multiple kernels in any sane way right now) what's wrong with chainloader e.g uBoot, to have a bootmenu to select kernels to boot from? | 02:59 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: I find your position bit odd | 02:59 |
| luke-jr | DocScrutinizer51: it's tolerable, if it ever works | 02:59 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: why? | 03:00 |
| BCMM_ | luke-jr: so do you run vanilla on you computer? | 03:00 |
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| luke-jr | BCMM_: no | 03:00 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: I run Gentoo's patchset, which is close to vanilla. | 03:00 |
| BCMM_ | it adds userland APIs | 03:00 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: does it? | 03:01 |
| luke-jr | pretty sure that would be against Gentoo policy. | 03:01 |
| BCMM_ | luke-jr: fbsplash | 03:01 |
| luke-jr | BCMM_: dunno anything about that | 03:01 |
| luke-jr | I certainly don't use/depend on it | 03:01 |
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| luke-jr | could just as well be running vanilla | 03:02 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: your complains about non-free 3d support would be much more credible if you rejected the 3d stuff because it is non-free and just used 2d stuff, carefully documenting for others how this can be done | 03:02 |
| luke-jr | I just figure by the time Gentoo's patched it, it's had time to sit and get bugfixes :P | 03:02 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: working on it | 03:02 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: need to get X usable first | 03:03 |
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| lindi- | luke-jr: of course this is biased by the fact that I'm planning to buy n900 if it becomes possible to operate free software | 03:03 |
| lindi- | +with | 03:03 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: ok, maybe I was just misunderstanding your position | 03:03 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: it's a long road | 03:04 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: btw, does gentoo have a written policy somewhere nowadays? | 03:04 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: nfc | 03:04 |
| TiagoTiago | Is Symbian^3 any more open than Maemo currently? | 03:04 |
| luke-jr | I got tired of the politics and dropped my developer position a number of years ago | 03:04 |
| luke-jr | now I just do stuff in overlays | 03:04 |
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| lindi- | luke-jr: nfc? | 03:05 |
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| luke-jr | no freaking clue | 03:05 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: oh | 03:05 |
| SpeedEvil | lindi-: What do you mean by 'operate free software'. | 03:05 |
| TiagoTiago | ~nfc | 03:05 |
| infobot | rumour has it, nfc is No Fucking Clue | 03:05 |
| luke-jr | infobot: fail | 03:05 |
| infobot | FAIL. | 03:05 |
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| lindi- | SpeedEvil: "operate with free software" sorry | 03:05 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 03:05 |
| SpeedEvil | lindi-: You will never legally have a mobile phone with a complete open stack on all cores. | 03:06 |
| lindi- | SpeedEvil: never say never there either :) | 03:06 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: nonsense | 03:06 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: ever try a Freerunner | 03:06 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: Freerunner has an open cellmo now, underway | 03:06 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: yeah I'm using one, how did you guess? ;) | 03:06 |
| TiagoTiago | what about those projects creating homebrew cell phones? | 03:06 |
| SpeedEvil | Legally - from a mass market maker. | 03:06 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: screw mass market makers | 03:06 |
| wmarone | screw devices that can't get off the ground seriously :) | 03:07 |
| lindi- | SpeedEvil: it's not black and white. but now that i have established certain level of freedom on my phone I don't want to downgrade on my next phone in to something more non-free | 03:07 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: anyhow, that was what everyone said about open software-wifi years ago | 03:07 |
| lcuk | console dialing ftw | 03:07 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 03:07 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: do you use the free cellular firmware? | 03:07 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: nope since it's not legal in finland at least | 03:07 |
| wmarone | awesome gprs data :D | 03:07 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: GSM is much more regulated. | 03:08 |
| lindi- | SpeedEvil: just because the gsm stuff is proprietary and runs on a separate ARM chip is no reason to use non-free 3d stuff :) | 03:08 |
| lcuk | do free software people have a problem with using a serial modem? | 03:08 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: so "yes, but I won't admit to a crime"? | 03:08 |
| lcuk | like the original modems | 03:08 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: depends | 03:08 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: no comment of course :) | 03:08 |
| SpeedEvil | I personally see very little difference between close-source graphics binary blobs and bluetooth/3G/... firmware. | 03:08 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: but I do can confess that the GPS stuff is being worked on | 03:08 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: one runs within the system | 03:09 |
| BCMM_ | hang on, which sort? | 03:09 |
| TiagoTiago | can the carriers tell which OS/firmware we are using? | 03:09 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: GPS is implemented in the cellular modem on N900 | 03:09 |
| lcuk | a modem is talking to over seial with AT commands | 03:09 |
| lcuk | serial | 03:09 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: yep but I mean on freerunner | 03:09 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: to an extent, yes, in some cases. | 03:09 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: I tolerate non-free firmware, but many people don't | 03:09 |
| TiagoTiago | how? | 03:09 |
| lcuk | a modem is a non trivial piece of hardware, but it hasa featureset that can be dont by flagging certain wires at the right time | 03:09 |
| luke-jr | my ideal, however, is free software, free firmware, free schematics, and free chip designs | 03:09 |
| lcuk | done | 03:10 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: If they supply the handsets, they can choose to supply or not based on the OS. | 03:10 |
| luke-jr | lol | 03:10 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: with rtklib I can calculate GPS position solutions instead of doing it with the proprietary firmware that is in the GPS chip of freerunner | 03:10 |
| BCMM_ | "closed-sorce graphics binary blobs" could refer either to firmware that needs to be loaded by the kernel, or to cloaed opengl implementations where 3d software has to use a propriatary lib | 03:10 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: that's technically illegal for them to do int he US | 03:10 |
| luke-jr | (control what handsets you use) | 03:10 |
| TiagoTiago | so if you slap the sim on a device you built and programmed they would be none the wiser? | 03:10 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: interesting. any idea how that could be retrofit to N810? :P | 03:11 |
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| lindi- | luke-jr: no idea | 03:11 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: most cellular services over here don't use SIMs | 03:11 |
| lcuk | someone retrofitting cellular onto 810 | 03:11 |
| lcuk | making a really nice job of it too | 03:11 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: anyhow, to do that on N900, you would *need* a free cellular firmware | 03:11 |
| TiagoTiago | that sucks | 03:11 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: GPS. not cell. | 03:12 |
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| lcuk | luke-jr, n810 has gps | 03:12 |
| lcuk | it doesnt have cell | 03:12 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: non-free and non-useful | 03:12 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: sure but you can use an external GPS device | 03:12 |
| lcuk | thats what he is adding afaik | 03:12 |
| lcuk | its very useful | 03:12 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: rtklib is presumably a free GPS library | 03:12 |
| lcuk | tracy loved todd | 03:12 |
| lcuk | well theres free gps on it already | 03:12 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: nope | 03:13 |
| lcuk | the routing is :( | 03:13 |
| luke-jr | ... | 03:13 |
| lcuk | cos its disabled now and tracy keeps getting lost | 03:13 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: beware, rtklib only replaces the last part of the calculations, it's not a complete firmware | 03:13 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: N810 GPS is 100% non-free | 03:13 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: no clue on N810's GPS | 03:13 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, it doesnt cost anything to use the maps | 03:13 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: and rtklib currently does not run on my freerunner, i need the cpu power of my laptop to run it :) | 03:13 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: cost has nothing to do with free/non-free | 03:13 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: but the author has optimized it to run on a beagleboard | 03:13 |
| TiagoTiago | Is there a way to make the N900 pretend to be a bluetooth GPS and trick programs on a PC and on other devices into accepting itms coordinates data etc? | 03:13 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: yes. | 03:14 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: in theory only | 03:14 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: do you have a freerunner? | 03:14 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, ahhh "the n810 gps does not have its freedom" | 03:14 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: nope | 03:14 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: you need to set it up like the FR. | 03:14 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: I tried to, this MBP won't see it as a GPS | 03:14 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: oh, why not? ;) | 03:14 |
| TiagoTiago | so no deal with Maemo? | 03:14 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: too expensive | 03:15 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: ok :( | 03:15 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, hmm | 03:15 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: especially considering there is no GSM/WCDMA here | 03:15 |
| lcuk | but you have an n900? | 03:15 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: curtosy of Nokia | 03:15 |
| lcuk | k | 03:16 |
| luke-jr | however that's spelt | 03:16 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: so you could just stop using that non-free stuff if you wanted? ;) | 03:16 |
| TiagoTiago | i think it's "cortesy" | 03:16 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: btw, N810's non-free GPS usually *doesn't work*, and *never works* with any modern kernel | 03:16 |
| lcuk | so | 03:16 |
| nox- | courtesy | 03:16 |
| lcuk | theres more defeinitions of what free can be | 03:16 |
| TiagoTiago | thx | 03:16 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: it's a matter of time, if you don't want 3D and ignore firmware | 03:16 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I think | 03:16 |
| lcuk | free == no money, free == freedom, free == freebie | 03:16 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: sounds promising | 03:16 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: got some status web page? | 03:17 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: free == no money is an abuse of language :P | 03:17 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: not really, just for N810 | 03:17 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I have a Gentoo overlay though :p | 03:17 |
| lindi- | ok | 03:17 |
| luke-jr | http://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/ | 03:17 |
| TiagoTiago | "no cost" ? | 03:17 |
| SpeedEvil | The n810 GPS is broadly similar to the description in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol | 03:17 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: anyways, many people are selling their freerunners quite cheaply nowadays | 03:17 |
| SpeedEvil | I am unsure it is the same chip rthough. | 03:17 |
| luke-jr | it's a TI GPS5300 | 03:18 |
| luke-jr | I think the same one in the N900 | 03:18 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: my cap for a FR is $50 :) | 03:18 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: you don't value freedom much :P | 03:18 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: I've been pondering I2C snooping the GPS on the n900 | 03:18 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: freedom to do... notihng? :P | 03:18 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: As I'm contemplating opening it up to add stuff. | 03:19 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: to run emacs of course | 03:19 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: it's not on I2C | 03:19 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: It is. | 03:19 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: It's not on the CPUs I2C | 03:19 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: it's only connected to the cellular modem, not the OMAP | 03:19 |
| luke-jr | you can access I2C on the modem? | 03:19 |
| SpeedEvil | yes. | 03:19 |
| SpeedEvil | With wires. | 03:19 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I don't value phones much. Much less phones with little memory/flash. Much less ones I can't get service for. | 03:20 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: ah | 03:20 |
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| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: good luck | 03:20 |
| TiagoTiago | would it be possible to patch those contacts under the battery to allow bridging coomjunications between the outside and the walled stuff like the cell modem? | 03:20 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: it will probably be no more useful than the N810's serial data :p | 03:20 |
| luke-jr | TiagoTiago: wtf? | 03:20 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: hmm, so you value functionality over freedom? | 03:21 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I value the combination. | 03:21 |
| TiagoTiago | i thought someone here had said the other day that ther was a plug for the main proccessor and another for the protected processor that runs the cell modem and stuff | 03:21 |
| luke-jr | freedom with no functionality is worthless | 03:21 |
| luke-jr | functionality with no freedom is also worthless | 03:22 |
| luke-jr | that's why I don't have a Ben NanoNote | 03:22 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Indeed. | 03:22 |
| TiagoTiago | is it true freedom without functionallity? | 03:22 |
| TiagoTiago | that kinda sounds like being set free inside a jailcell | 03:22 |
| lcuk | infinite jailcell | 03:23 |
| luke-jr | hehehe | 03:23 |
| lcuk | but even that has its upsides :) | 03:23 |
| lcuk | plenty of wallspace to write on | 03:23 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 03:23 |
| SpeedEvil | A non-free device on which I can do apt-get install build-essentials isn't especially non-free to me. | 03:23 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: but I can make calls, so it's not "no functionality" ;) | 03:24 |
| TiagoTiago | not if its just infinite in the up direction | 03:24 |
| lcuk | ++ SpeedEvil | 03:24 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago, i am tall | 03:24 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 03:24 |
| lindi- | SpeedEvil: scary device (hint, it's build-essential) | 03:24 |
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| lcuk | lindi-, hes free to try to install anything he wants :P | 03:25 |
| TiagoTiago | that doesn't fit in the default partitioning of the N900, no? | 03:25 |
| lcuk | i believe it does | 03:25 |
| lcuk | a newly flashed pr1.2 has >00mb free | 03:25 |
| lcuk | 100 | 03:25 |
| lcuk | and build-essential is about 80mb | 03:25 |
| TiagoTiago | itm+ not optified, is it? | 03:25 |
| lcuk | with a new line in maemo-optify-boottime config file, the /usr/include folder can be put onto opt easily | 03:26 |
| TiagoTiago | it's* | 03:26 |
| SpeedEvil | lindi-: I installed it more than once | 03:26 |
| lindi- | lcuk: now think of the build dependencies of chromium-browser for a second :) I had to do several recompiles to get some ARM fixes done | 03:26 |
| wmarone | lcuk: is it the /usr/include dir that uses most of the space? | 03:26 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: you can, but I couldn't. | 03:26 |
| * lcuk has considered optifying build-essential many times | 03:26 | |
| SpeedEvil | (I recommend installing it in a chroot) | 03:26 |
| lcuk | wmarone, it uses enough | 03:26 |
| lcuk | and grows quickly | 03:26 |
| SpeedEvil | Copy / into a /home/user/ | 03:26 |
| wmarone | hm | 03:26 |
| lcuk | as more -dev packages are needed | 03:26 |
| SpeedEvil | /home/user/chroot | 03:27 |
| TiagoTiago | currently i have only 13MB free in rootfs :/ | 03:27 |
| lcuk | build-essential doesnt have any library stuff | 03:27 |
| SpeedEvil | then you can install random stupid packages in that | 03:27 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: again, there is no GSM/WCDMA here. | 03:28 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: You can plugin 3G module to FR USB | 03:28 |
| lindi- | SpeedEvil: was just going to say the same. I regularly do it when I need to upload photos from a forest :) | 03:29 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: what good will that do without 3G? | 03:29 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: the usb module does 3g | 03:30 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: what good is that without 3G?? | 03:30 |
| lcuk | lindi-, i find it shocking at how heavyweight many apps have gotten | 03:30 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: sorry I don't understand | 03:30 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: 3G radios are useless without 3G towers | 03:30 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: you plugin your local standard USB-cellmo | 03:30 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: everything here is CDMA | 03:30 |
| SpeedEvil | Or USB-satmo | 03:30 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: so how does n900 work? | 03:31 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: it doesn't really | 03:31 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: eh? | 03:31 |
| SpeedEvil | lindi-: Works fine. | 03:31 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I got someone in KC to ship me a T-Mobile SIM | 03:31 |
| luke-jr | once in a while I get a signal | 03:32 |
| luke-jr | like at home -.- | 03:32 |
| luke-jr | where I don't need it | 03:32 |
| SpeedEvil | lindi-: My major annoyance witht the n900 after 10 months is that there is only one stylus. | 03:32 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: so you are not buying freerunner because your area does not have good gsm coverage? | 03:32 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: but you are happily using n900 even though it suffers from the same problem? sorry but this does not compute :P | 03:32 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: that's one reason. I also have no use for a phone. | 03:32 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I didn't pay for N900. | 03:33 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: I would gladly take and play with a FR at no cost. | 03:33 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: so stop using n900 and you don't need to use that non-free software :) | 03:33 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: Nokia sent it to me so I would do development for it presumably, so I will do that. | 03:34 |
| luke-jr | since it's non-free, the development will be aimed to making it useful with free software | 03:34 |
| luke-jr | :p | 03:34 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: it sounds odd that you then complain that it has non-free stuff | 03:34 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: why? | 03:34 |
| luke-jr | that's one reason I wouldn't buy it | 03:34 |
| lindi- | your situation is way too complex sorry :) | 03:35 |
| luke-jr | lol | 03:35 |
| luke-jr | I got $800 waiting for the first company/anyone to produce a free handheld that fits my requirements :P | 03:36 |
| lindi- | I can only see that you willingly use non-free software even if you didn't need to | 03:36 |
| SpeedEvil | $800 for a non-mass-market device is regrettably small. | 03:36 |
| * SpeedEvil wishes the economics weren't this way. | 03:36 | |
| lindi- | you could get several freerunner with that | 03:36 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: FreeRunner doesn't meet any of my requirements | 03:37 |
| lindi- | luke-jr: one would be CDMA? | 03:39 |
| TiagoTiago_ | Doe any of you happen to know the creators of Dwaerf Fortress personally (even if just online) ?: | 03:41 |
| TiagoTiago_ | ? | 03:41 |
| luke-jr | lindi-: depends | 03:42 |
| luke-jr | a sane place to put a USB modem would work... | 03:43 |
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| luke-jr | (sane as in, it won't break in my pocket) | 03:44 |
| luke-jr | heck, MiFi could work | 03:45 |
| luke-jr | the bigger issues are freedom and keyboard reallt | 03:45 |
| luke-jr | N900 kb SUCKS | 03:45 |
| SpeedEvil | I disagree somewhat. | 03:45 |
| lindi- | rright | 03:45 |
| SpeedEvil | I'mup to about 30wpm | 03:45 |
| TiagoTiago | hm, does the N900 not ring out loud when connected to a bt headset? | 03:46 |
| luke-jr | 30wpm is crap | 03:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: probably not | 03:47 |
| TiagoTiago | my N73 did, it was quite handy not having to keep the earpiece in my ear but not having to waste time connecting it when a call came | 03:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer | though from a UI design and usability POV that probably should be a settings option, to either have always speakers-ringtone, or have ringtone via headset only (if attached), or first have n seconds via headset, then switch to speaker | 03:49 |
| TiagoTiago | indeed | 03:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | or both, obviously (speaker and headset, concurrently) | 03:50 |
| TiagoTiago | ok, i tested now and at least with Skype calls it does ring on both, i dunno why i didn't heard anything but still got a missed call notice.... | 03:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | e.g when connecting N900 to home stereo, to play music for the party from mediaplayer, I'd not be amused to have screen clicks and ringtones and sms notifcations and whatnot via stereo @ 110dBm :-P | 03:52 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 03:52 |
| nox- | :) | 03:52 |
| TiagoTiago | with lack of additional profiles that is indeed a problem | 03:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | I made a few profiles for that, one of my profiles is called "music source" | 03:59 |
| lcuk | DocScrutinizer, at the other end of ths spectrum, when you have headset plugged in whilst you are in church/hospital/library/any place quiet - you expect your device to stay quiet | 04:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 04:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer | but you'd need a special profile for that anyway, independently of any connected headset, no? | 04:01 |
| lcuk | when I plug in headphones doesnt all sound go through there? | 04:02 |
| * luke-jr would really like a hardware switch to disconnect the speakers :P | 04:02 | |
| DocScrutinizer | usually yes. Though TiagoTiago just claimed skype doesn't | 04:02 |
| luke-jr | trusting software just doesn't jive well with me | 04:02 |
| luke-jr | unless the kernel could enforce it | 04:02 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, surprisingly I find myself agreeing | 04:02 |
| lcuk | on desktop | 04:03 |
| lcuk | i generally use the hardware volume/power | 04:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I'd like a better way to access different particular volume settings, like adjusting ringtone volume easily, and music volume, and screen click volume, and kbd click, and sms notification... etc... | 04:05 |
| raster | DocScrutinizer: DOCZ! | 04:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | a dedicated volume slider for each single app | 04:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer | raster ;-D | 04:05 |
| lcuk | you mean some mechanism for each app to register its audo requirements and allow some sort of introspection :p | 04:05 |
| lcuk | audio | 04:05 |
| raster | DocScrutinizer: how goes? | 04:05 |
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| TiagoTiago | system and key and screen clicks don't even got sliders for volume control, just e3 settings, mute, barelly hearable and full | 04:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | always fighting uphill :-) | 04:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | how's you? | 04:06 |
| raster | DocScrutinizer: fighting many things | 04:06 |
| raster | from bugs though to non-code things | 04:06 |
| raster | but its moving along | 04:06 |
| * lcuk fights nothing today | 04:06 | |
| raster | who here hates that maemo is moviong to meego and really liked things debian based | 04:07 |
| raster | or would love a deb/ubuntu(like) based os? | 04:07 |
| raster | just curious how much people are attached to/ like the deb way? | 04:07 |
| lcuk | who says we can't submit debs to all meego and use em anyway? | 04:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: what I mean is a separate softvol for each app. Easily done via ALSA when only the app knows how to use other audio device than just 'default' | 04:07 |
| lcuk | errr patches | 04:07 |
| luke-jr | raster: I'm attached to the Gentoo way. | 04:07 |
| lcuk | raster, it could be worse you know | 04:08 |
| lcuk | install-shield was an option | 04:08 |
| raster | lcuk: well as meego will be arpm based.. i dont see that they will happily support 2 packaging systems... no? | 04:08 |
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| lcuk | its easy | 04:08 |
| lcuk | debian/ is just a folder | 04:08 |
| lcuk | rpm is just a spec file | 04:08 |
| luke-jr | ... | 04:08 |
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| raster | luke-jr: yeah. but thats just not feasible. so u can stay there :) | 04:08 |
| lcuk | both can happily coexist as long as maintainers can handle them | 04:08 |
| raster | lcuk: well not from a packaging/dev point of view | 04:08 |
| lcuk | .sis is the next one i expect to hear about especially for qt apps | 04:09 |
| raster | as an end-user pov | 04:09 |
| raster | eg | 04:09 |
| raster | if u were deb/ubuntu based | 04:09 |
| lcuk | end user shouldnt care a damn about packaging format | 04:09 |
| raster | u could instantly bget access to the whole arm deb/ubuntu repos | 04:09 |
| raster | and just apt-get install anything already there | 04:09 |
| TiagoTiago | can the two formats be converted to the other without loosing information? | 04:09 |
| luke-jr | raster: uh no | 04:09 |
| raster | which is quite a lot of stuff | 04:09 |
| lcuk | raster, i dont have that now | 04:09 |
| luke-jr | raster: deb/ubuntu repos won't work on Maemo | 04:09 |
| raster | luke-jr: i know | 04:09 |
| lcuk | i have access to the set of packages in $distro | 04:09 |
| raster | but they do work on mer | 04:09 |
| lcuk | so on archlinux i have theirs | 04:09 |
| raster | for example | 04:09 |
| raster | :) | 04:09 |
| luke-jr | ... | 04:09 |
| lcuk | and on maemo this set | 04:09 |
| lcuk | and mint linux.. | 04:10 |
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| lcuk | raster, for backend libs and stuff sure | 04:10 |
| lcuk | but show me desktop UI apps that happily work | 04:10 |
| raster | lcuk: sure | 04:10 |
| lcuk | from desktop down to handheld | 04:10 |
| raster | just talking of back-end | 04:10 |
| lcuk | users dont install backend stuff | 04:11 |
| raster | eg u can get the whole host of libs and back-end utils for free - i guess, with the core os | 04:11 |
| lcuk | users go to a nice app manager and click things | 04:11 |
| raster | sure - to make gui apps work on such small limited screens generally requires specific work to make them | 04:11 |
| lcuk | and dont care if it comes inside an underwater sharkproof box | 04:11 |
| raster | BUT they can use all the back-ends there already | 04:11 |
| lcuk | sure | 04:12 |
| lcuk | i did same for opensoundcontrol library | 04:12 |
| raster | vs having to re-package them themselves | 04:12 |
| lcuk | i grabbed the debian lib | 04:12 |
| TiagoTiago | OpenOffice works in the N9pp with the interface unchanged (somtimes itms too tight though) | 04:12 |
| lcuk | and submitted it without modification to maemo autobuilder | 04:12 |
| lcuk | then used it in onedotzero app | 04:12 |
| lcuk | was simple | 04:12 |
| raster | sure | 04:12 |
| raster | but if u can skip that step and "just use" | 04:12 |
| lcuk | users couldnt just use | 04:12 |
| raster | maemo has its problems in having to add extras-devel to get any decent set of extra libs etc. | 04:13 |
| raster | :) | 04:13 |
| lcuk | so does * distro | 04:13 |
| lcuk | afaik, debian stable doesn't include everything | 04:13 |
| raster | true | 04:13 |
| raster | was more thinking like mer | 04:13 |
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| DocScrutinizer | opensoundcontrol??? WTF is that? | 04:13 |
| raster | ubuntu i guess | 04:14 |
| raster | brb | 04:14 |
| lcuk | mer would need hammering for stability | 04:14 |
| lcuk | make it like the wild west and its not good | 04:14 |
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| lcuk | DocScrutinizer, network protocol for connecting midi instruments and computer control equipment | 04:15 |
| raster | bak | 04:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | aah ok, thanks | 04:15 |
| raster | lcuk: sure. now if u had a b ase like mer | 04:15 |
| raster | but a stable solid kernel, power management middle layer, telephony and ui | 04:15 |
| raster | that actuallyt works a charm on small screens | 04:15 |
| lcuk | yeah i know | 04:15 |
| raster | and it was still x11 based (ie x11, wm, compositor, toolkits etc.) | 04:15 |
| raster | vs building a whole new os with new paakcages (meego) etc.? | 04:16 |
| raster | is that more attractive? | 04:16 |
| lcuk | its not | 04:16 |
| raster | (assuming it also ships on real devices) | 04:16 |
| raster | lcuk: so basically u dont care about the extra packages and tools. | 04:16 |
| lcuk | i like anyone cares | 04:17 |
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| raster | ? | 04:17 |
| lcuk | but if the process when i come to need a library is similar to how it was before | 04:17 |
| lcuk | then it doesnt really matter | 04:17 |
| lcuk | if its hugely difficult there will be problems | 04:17 |
| raster | sure | 04:17 |
| raster | as such rpm is a better pkg format | 04:17 |
| raster | and spec files are by far better organised and easier to deal with than deb | 04:18 |
| raster | i do say | 04:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | hear hear | 04:18 |
| lcuk | not really | 04:18 |
| raster | tho deb has the upper hand in simply the mointain of stuff already packaged | 04:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | duh? | 04:18 |
| lcuk | raster, i have been somewhat above packaging recently tho | 04:19 |
| TiagoTiago | under perfect external conditions what's the smallest error the N900's GPS can achieve? | 04:19 |
| lcuk | prefer to point at git repository tags and branches | 04:19 |
| lcuk | and say "Build that" | 04:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: 0mm | 04:19 |
| lcuk | whatever packager it has | 04:19 |
| raster | lcuk: sure. i am assuming that for now, the "i have to wrtie an app" work is all equal and the same | 04:19 |
| raster | its just the barrier of entry to get to that stage | 04:19 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: 10cm | 04:20 |
| raster | ands the breadth of stuff available to that stage to work with | 04:20 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: or so. | 04:20 |
| raster | (tools, libs etc.) | 04:20 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: averaging for a week | 04:20 |
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| lcuk | say that to qt - they need to ensure packages are packagable in deb rpm SMI sis and any other format they support | 04:20 |
| TiagoTiago | that perfect? i though the GPS system as a whole was not capable of a precision of less than a few centimeters | 04:20 |
| SpeedEvil | http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_GPS | 04:20 |
| TiagoTiago | 10 sounds more likelly | 04:20 |
| SpeedEvil | 50% of points fall within 2.2m | 04:20 |
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| SpeedEvil | a radius of | 04:21 |
| raster | lcuk: i am assuming the toolkits are packaged for the os already - worrying about the job of those doing the app writing | 04:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: you asked about the smales possible error: it's zero | 04:21 |
| raster | ie the things that NEED to be re-done for the platform | 04:21 |
| raster | the small-screen uis and all the gazillions of utils people write and throw into things like appstores/marketplaces | 04:21 |
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| TiagoTiago | what would be necessary to get zero error? | 04:21 |
| raster | ti a miracle | 04:21 |
| lcuk | raster, its an eternal frustration to people about packaging | 04:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: luck | 04:22 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: what do you mean by that | 04:22 |
| raster | TiagoTiago: a miracle | 04:22 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 04:22 |
| lcuk | from any os | 04:22 |
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| SpeedEvil | You can get substantially lower error if you can get the per-sat reception details out of the GPS. The n900 GPS can't - or won't - do this. | 04:22 |
| raster | lcuk: i know. i'm really asking - what is the value of the core os to you beyond it simply bnooting and working | 04:22 |
| raster | if it is closed, or built ion tarballs from slackware or even hand-build cramfs read-only fs's | 04:23 |
| raster | does it matter to you? | 04:23 |
| TiagoTiago | i mean the distance between the true coordinates and the coordinate reported being less than what can be measured wigthout lab equipament, therefore zero | 04:23 |
| raster | at what point does the "how good is your base tech" top being relevant to you? | 04:23 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: I can measure 1mm without lab equipment. | 04:23 |
| SpeedEvil | I diddn't realise how good commercial gyros had gotten. | 04:24 |
| TiagoTiago | so less than a milimeter | 04:24 |
| lcuk | raster, i wrote liqbase for one reason, to ensure i had a solid open reliable core system. that should answer your question. | 04:24 |
| SpeedEvil | ~25*25mm gyro will give you .5 degree/sqrt(hr) random walk. | 04:24 |
| SpeedEvil | (though it is $900 now) | 04:24 |
| lcuk | the "base" part is the important bit ;) | 04:24 |
| lcuk | raster, and regarding the rest | 04:25 |
| TiagoTiago | why randomness in things like accelerometers and gyrometers don't average too zero even when unbiased? | 04:25 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: because they don't know where zero is. | 04:25 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 04:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: you probably want to know what error is introduced by GPS system from technical / design level | 04:26 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: if you flip a coin a million times, you will not get 500K heads - even with an unbiased coin. | 04:26 |
| lcuk | of course it matters, meego base is as open as it can be, its very similar to maemo at that level just organised a bit differently | 04:26 |
| TiagoTiago | but the more tries you do the closer it gets, no? | 04:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: yes | 04:27 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: And if you then do another million flips, the chances that you get another error in the same direction is just as high as you get an error that cancels. | 04:27 |
| SpeedEvil | In short - no. | 04:27 |
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| lcuk | raster, you are also aware I have spent the last year working on maemo application framework stuff and apart from the odd gremace about closed things generally dont have issues | 04:29 |
| TiagoTiago | it's kinda annoying how randomness is counterintuive | 04:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: systematic error of GPS is probably around a few mm | 04:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | depending on the specific technical measures the receivers use | 04:30 |
| raster | lcuk: sure - so you made your own protability layer | 04:30 |
| raster | and you package that and be done with it | 04:30 |
| raster | :) | 04:30 |
| TiagoTiago | does the GPS reports the position of the chip or the center of the device? | 04:30 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: the antenna | 04:30 |
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| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: which is close to the on/off | 04:31 |
| TiagoTiago | hm | 04:31 |
| lcuk | raster, not quite portability, but it went along with my thinking | 04:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago: obviously the pos of the antenna | 04:31 |
| raster | lcuk: well your own "make sure i have the api's, facilities etc. there and this lib takes care of that" | 04:31 |
| nox- | mm accuracy w gps? wont that need a mil version? | 04:31 |
| lcuk | yup, same as any library | 04:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | nox-: sure | 04:32 |
| TiagoTiago | hm, ah, right, it can't know which way the device is rotated in order to calculate the correct offset | 04:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | nox-: plus a reference, and special means in receiver to compare phase of carier signal etc | 04:32 |
| nox- | :) | 04:33 |
| SpeedEvil | nox-: no. | 04:33 |
| SpeedEvil | nox-: It needs an expensive reciever with typically another expensive reciever nearby | 04:33 |
| nox- | ah yeah differential gps, ok | 04:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's what I meant by reference | 04:34 |
| lcuk | omg painful video from NW :( | 04:35 |
| TiagoTiago | ? | 04:35 |
| TiagoTiago | what is "NW"? | 04:35 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago, nokia world | 04:40 |
| * GeneralAntilles just reached for the stupid iPhone to test an application for MWKN. | 04:40 | |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, why is it stupid? | 04:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Because it's not particularly useful for me. | 04:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Doesn't read books well, doesn't multitask, doesn't handle IRC well. | 04:41 |
| lcuk | push folks to put meego on it :) | 04:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 04:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Linux isn't on it. | 04:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | You think they'll be able to get MeeGo on it without that? | 04:42 |
| lcuk | hmm, have seen iphones with tux? | 04:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | 1st and 2nd generation, maybe. | 04:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not anything afterwards. | 04:42 |
| lcuk | hmm | 04:43 |
| nox- | http://www.idroidproject.org/wiki/Main_Page | 04:43 |
| lcuk | android on 3g somewhere i think, so that means theres a kernel and stuff | 04:43 |
| nox- | yeah :) | 04:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, 3G is second generation. | 04:44 |
| lcuk | so 3g is 2g | 04:44 |
| lcuk | ? | 04:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | 3G is the iPhone 1 with 3G data. | 04:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | iPhone, iPhone 3G, iPhone 3G S, iPhone 4 | 04:44 |
| lcuk | meh | 04:45 |
| lcuk | i just want to see like for like really | 04:45 |
| TiagoTiago | arent you confusing 3G with G3? | 04:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | TiagoTiago, 3rd generation or generation 3. | 04:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Apple's created the confusion. | 04:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | iPods were always 1G/2G/3G before the iPhone 3G was ever a prototype. | 04:46 |
| lcuk | openiboot | 04:47 |
| TiagoTiago | regarding cell phone technology it's usually the nimber then the word generation, while for devices itm's the word generation and then the number; at least that is how it looks like for me | 04:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | TiagoTiago, wasn't before the iPhone 3G came out. | 04:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | G3 makes me think PowerMac G3. | 04:48 |
| TiagoTiago | hm | 04:49 |
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| TiagoTiago | is it possible to make the N900 work as a bootable USB OS when pluged into a PC without having to reflash MyDocs? | 04:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | MicroSD? | 04:56 |
| TiagoTiago | hm | 04:56 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: In principle, you can boot from mydocs | 04:56 |
| SpeedEvil | with a VFAT layering fs, or a big drive. | 04:57 |
| nox- | by default at least its `superfloppy' tho | 04:57 |
| TiagoTiago | isn't it marked as a non-bootable partition? | 04:58 |
| SpeedEvil | hmm | 04:58 |
| SpeedEvil | dunno | 04:58 |
| nox- | it doesnt even have a partition table... | 04:58 |
| nox- | (thats what superfloppy means) | 04:58 |
| TiagoTiago | hm | 04:59 |
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| TiagoTiago | is that bootable with most motherboards? | 04:59 |
| nox- | dunno | 04:59 |
| * nox- would doubt | 05:00 | |
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| nox- | so microsd sounds better indeed | 05:01 |
| TiagoTiago | indeed | 05:02 |
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| lcuk | hey raster - i was playing with liq* stuff on x86 and was blown away by speedups, on my laptop i ran little liqflow thingy and instead of its usual 200 particles (it reasonably supports upto about 1000) on the x86 it happily ran 25000 and was still not slow at 50k particles | 05:08 |
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| lcuk | was awesome :D | 05:08 |
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| TiagoTiago | heh | 05:08 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | what was the clock? | 05:08 |
| lcuk | 800mhz first, but I changed from its usual powersave mode to performance of 1.87ghz for the 50k test | 05:09 |
| TiagoTiago_ | and what clock was the N900 when you tested the limits? | 05:10 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, liqflow has run at fullspeed on the n900 all along, i am not sure what clock it sits on | 05:11 |
| lcuk | i noticed the other day it was using 20pc cpu for doing something | 05:11 |
| TiagoTiago_ | i mena, was it overclocked or stock? | 05:12 |
| lcuk | have a look yourself, just install it and tell me | 05:12 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, very stock | 05:12 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, but i know the cpu slows itself down | 05:12 |
| TiagoTiago_ | so at most 600MHz, is 200MHz enough to explain the difference? | 05:12 |
| lcuk | i just dont know how to know what its in | 05:12 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, just the way it is | 05:13 |
| TiagoTiago_ | what do you mena? | 05:14 |
| lcuk | 1000 on device runs well | 05:14 |
| lcuk | 25k doesnt | 05:14 |
| lcuk | thats all i know :P | 05:14 |
| TiagoTiago | what was the ram of the x86 machine? | 05:15 |
| lcuk | i can bring the laptop to its knees tho :P | 05:15 |
| TiagoTiago | heh | 05:15 |
| lcuk | its ok i think i noticed | 05:15 |
| lcuk | different | 05:15 |
| lcuk | difference * | 05:15 |
| lcuk | on device i can make longer strokes easier | 05:16 |
| lcuk | ;) | 05:16 |
| lcuk | so it degrades quicker | 05:16 |
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| lcuk | (more strokes == more work) | 05:16 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | it isn't the same as a single stroke with the same lenght as the sum of the length of multiple strokes? | 05:17 |
| lcuk | no its less related | 05:18 |
| lcuk | but on a small display | 05:18 |
| lcuk | i can move finger around quicker and get strokes all over | 05:18 |
| TiagoTiago_ | why? | 05:18 |
| lcuk | cos the nobble on this laptop suz | 05:18 |
| lcuk | sux | 05:18 |
| TiagoTiago_ | the what? | 05:19 |
| lcuk | nobble/nipple/mouse thing | 05:19 |
| lcuk | between GHB keys | 05:19 |
| TiagoTiago_ | ah, the nub mouse | 05:19 |
| ieatlint | GHB? | 05:20 |
| ieatlint | (yes, of course that's what will get my attention) | 05:20 |
| lcuk | ieatlint, lenovo nub mouse thingy in the middle of the GHB keys | 05:21 |
| ieatlint | haha, the trackpoint | 05:21 |
| TiagoTiago_ | but why a single long stroke with the length equal to the sum of the lengths of multiple strokes doesn't consume as much processing power as the multiple strokes? | 05:21 |
| TiagoTiago_ | is that what it's callled? i call it a nub mouse, or mouse nub | 05:22 |
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| ieatlint | i'm just laughing because GHB is a date-rape drug | 05:22 |
| TiagoTiago_ | lol | 05:22 |
| ieatlint | yeah, they called it the trackpoint | 05:22 |
| TiagoTiago_ | the N900 could use one | 05:23 |
| nox- | true | 05:23 |
| ieatlint | somehow i think trying to work a mouse on it would just be awkward | 05:23 |
| TiagoTiago_ | if it was a 5way thingy it [could work | 05:24 |
| ieatlint | trackballs work i will say | 05:24 |
| * lcuk has other ideas for n900 mice :P | 05:24 | |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, install liqflow | 05:24 |
| TiagoTiago_ | perhaps it could be a little glass nub in the right side (where it would become the bottom while in portrait mode), and since the touch funcitonality has pressure sensitivity it would allow for 5way functionality | 05:25 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, i shall have to muck around and get a full set of benchies | 05:28 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | aight | 05:29 |
| * lcuk likes liqflow on live wallpaper now | 05:29 | |
| TiagoTiago_ | heh | 05:29 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | does it still record strokes? | 05:30 |
| lcuk | apart from a couple of bugs it seems to be good | 05:30 |
| lcuk | it works exactly as before | 05:30 |
| lcuk | best on the single livewp across all | 05:30 |
| TiagoTiago_ | doesn't it get polluted with all the accumulated strokes? | 05:30 |
| lcuk | yes but it only uses the most recent 4 strokes for calculation | 05:31 |
| TiagoTiago_ | what happens to the old strokes? | 05:31 |
| lcuk | the options dialog and settings are pending | 05:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | trackpoint, trackball, bah. Make battery cover a touchpad! | 05:32 |
| lcuk | theyy are part of a sketch | 05:32 |
| * lcuk has been playing with other liq* things on livewp | 05:32 | |
| TiagoTiago_ | do the particles colide with each other,. or are replled by each other? | 05:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | and replace the proximity sensor by a sensor of an IR optical mouse | 05:32 |
| lcuk | no way DocScrutinizer | 05:33 |
| TiagoTiago_ | an optical trackball, interesting idea | 05:33 |
| lcuk | you dont put it face down | 05:33 |
| lcuk | add mouse laser on backside along with other camera stuff | 05:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: eh? | 05:33 |
| lcuk | use nice touchscreen for full mouse | 05:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | face down? | 05:33 |
| TiagoTiago_ | a time of flight camera would rock | 05:33 |
| lcuk | <DocScrutinizer> and replace the proximity sensor by a sensor of an IR optical mouse | 05:33 |
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| lcuk | proximity sensor is on the face | 05:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_ got it onstantly | 05:34 |
| nox- | bbl | 05:34 |
| TiagoTiago_ | got that? | 05:34 |
| TiagoTiago_ | cya | 05:34 |
| lcuk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVqdfFdL3Q | 05:34 |
| lcuk | DocScrutinizer, ^ | 05:34 |
| lcuk | then use the screenspace where palm is to fill with other modules, clock and cpu stats from main computer etc | 05:35 |
| lcuk | z4chh wrote a liq* remote stats gathering tool last year :) | 05:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: completely different thing than what I'm talking bout | 05:36 |
| lcuk | you are wanting a finger nub? | 05:36 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: neat | 05:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm talking about an optical trackball | 05:37 |
| SpeedEvil | Glue tiny lens to frontcam | 05:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | (thanks for the nice term, TiagoTiago_ :-) | 05:38 |
| SpeedEvil | and side-illuminate | 05:38 |
| TiagoTiago_ | :) | 05:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: yo | 05:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | but the rear side fullsize touchpad is a much nicer idea yet | 05:39 |
| SpeedEvil | I want rear e-ink | 05:39 |
| lcuk | polaroid printer | 05:40 |
| lcuk | would be awesome | 05:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | you could make the screen "transparent" by displaying your fingers positions on the touchpad by images of fingers | 05:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | and you can scroll and everything while holding the device like you do usually while typing on hw kbd | 05:41 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: Have you investigated if you can get adequate position information from a painted surface? | 05:42 |
| TiagoTiago_ | can the maincamera tbe used to track motion like that? | 05:42 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: Like you can use an optical mouse on white paper | 05:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | TiagoTiago_: nope, not enough fisheye | 05:42 |
| TiagoTiago_ | what it sees is too out of focus to track features? | 05:43 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: yes | 05:43 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: also - no light | 05:43 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: the flashlight LED can't go dim enough | 05:43 |
| TiagoTiago_ | use the flash or the recording led | 05:43 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | oh | 05:43 |
| TiagoTiago_ | it gets too overexposed? | 05:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | the cam can't detect touches to the cover surface | 05:43 |
| SpeedEvil | yes | 05:44 |
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| lcuk | to | 05:44 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, | 05:44 |
| SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: I mean if you added a lens system to bring the surface into focus | 05:44 |
| lcuk | the video there is not based on mouse | 05:44 |
| SpeedEvil | umm? | 05:44 |
| lcuk | its based on the facecamera and lights above | 05:44 |
| SpeedEvil | yes, I know | 05:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | but replacing the battery cover by a capacitive touchpad should be relatively feasible | 05:44 |
| lcuk | i doubt i could focus the face camera whenever i looked it didnt appear to show anything usable | 05:45 |
| lcuk | (open lence and show preview with torch on) | 05:45 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: I was meaning that optical mice use a similar idea, but track on small variations on brightness. | 05:45 |
| lcuk | lens * | 05:45 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: I was meaning the face camera | 05:45 |
| lcuk | focus main camera * | 05:45 |
| SpeedEvil | but from normal ceiling | 05:45 |
| lcuk | ahh no not really | 05:46 |
| lcuk | the image is awesomely noisey | 05:46 |
| * lcuk is getting tired | 05:46 | |
| TiagoTiago_ | testing with Fcamera and Livefocus keepign the LED lit it seems it could work, even if the image is out of focus, you just need the "mousepad to not be too plain | 05:47 |
| * DocScrutinizer is considering a POC setup by strapping two N900 together, back to back, and use the downside unit's touchscreen to move the upside unit's 'cursor' | 05:48 | |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, cool | 05:48 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, so thats facing the camera down on a surface | 05:49 |
| TiagoTiago_ | yep | 05:49 |
| lcuk | :) | 05:49 |
| lcuk | so some algorithm to use the patterns could theoretically bring real mouse utility | 05:50 |
| TiagoTiago_ | eith a patterned surface i can clearly see the blobs of light and dark moving | 05:50 |
| TiagoTiago_ | with* | 05:50 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: the other problem is that the fps is too low | 05:50 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, not really | 05:50 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: mouse cams go at 1500fps | 05:50 |
| lcuk | as a portable thing to save me carrying mouse as well | 05:51 |
| lcuk | it would be good | 05:51 |
| SpeedEvil | hmm | 05:51 |
| SpeedEvil | You can add the accel input too | 05:51 |
| TiagoTiago_ | sure | 05:51 |
| SpeedEvil | Though I question how much that'd help. | 05:51 |
| SpeedEvil | GPS for really big movements. :) | 05:51 |
| lcuk | only to know its moving | 05:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: mice also have a resolution of 256 pixel | 05:51 |
| SpeedEvil | True | 05:51 |
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| lcuk | fuck | 05:52 |
| lcuk | how did i close a chan :S | 05:52 |
| SpeedEvil | ctrl-w? | 05:52 |
| TiagoTiago_ | something like a fasffourier thingy to detect how out of focus the iamge actually is could be used to detect when you're lifiting it frmt he surface | 05:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | so they have a microscopic (literally) view area and this minimal spot needs to be scanned faster than you move "out of area" | 05:52 |
| TiagoTiago_ | or is there a distance detrector for thee autofocus? | 05:52 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, leave focus at macro minimum | 05:53 |
| SpeedEvil | TiagoTiago: IT CAN focus down to 4cm or so | 05:53 |
| TiagoTiago_ | Fcamera calls the lowest focus 5 centimeters | 05:53 |
| lcuk | and just see what sort of processing we can do on the patterns | 05:53 |
| lcuk | to see feasibility | 05:53 |
| lcuk | then catch edge cases | 05:53 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm not sure if it'll be much more focussed if you set it to 5cm than infinity | 05:53 |
| lcuk | using accel and other bits | 05:53 |
| SpeedEvil | I suspect not | 05:53 |
| lcuk | it will be lightdark areas as said | 05:54 |
| lcuk | gross features of the surface | 05:54 |
| lcuk | rather than fine woodgrain | 05:54 |
| lcuk | it might only work on certain surfaces like old mice did, but its a different usecase to play with | 05:54 |
| TiagoTiago_ | you probably need to compoesante for the uncentered "vigneting" caused by the LED being closer to one side thant he other | 05:55 |
| TiagoTiago_ | compensate* | 05:55 |
| TiagoTiago_ | though depending ont he alroithm used in processing the image it might not matter | 05:55 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | algorithm* | 05:56 |
| lcuk | tired fingers* | 05:56 |
| TiagoTiago_ | heh | 05:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | tired doc* | 05:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd sugest to use privacy indicator (orange LED) actually, for illumination. Rather than white monsters | 05:57 |
| lcuk | red led isnt it | 05:58 |
| lcuk | and yeah i agree if its sensitive | 05:58 |
| TiagoTiago_ | i couldn't get it to lproduce enough light to make thigns visible when the camera is agaisnt the surface | 05:58 |
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| lcuk | blast it with white light then | 05:59 |
| lcuk | brute force approach lol | 05:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's actually an orange LED, at least it's more shortwave than usual red ones | 05:59 |
| TiagoTiago_ | looks REd to me | 05:59 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | red* | 05:59 |
| lcuk | if oranges had been that red, we would be eating reds | 05:59 |
| TiagoTiago_ | lol | 05:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh | 06:00 |
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| lcuk | heh | 06:00 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | and using the white LEDs you can more easilly use surfaces of different colors, things that are aren't red and black wouldd be harder to detect the patterns with the red LED | 06:02 |
| TiagoTiago_ | does liqflow use hardware acceleration? | 06:02 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, yes | 06:03 |
| lcuk | it makes full use of the cpu | 06:04 |
| TiagoTiago_ | what about the GPU? | 06:04 |
| lcuk | xvideo yuv overlay bypasses the powervr and compositing | 06:04 |
| TiagoTiago_ | i remember reading abnout PlasmaPong that it uses shaders for running the liquid simulation | 06:04 |
| lcuk | then no, this is direct software driven stuff | 06:05 |
| lcuk | gas balls is a rather nice opengl doofer | 06:05 |
| lcuk | thats on ovi | 06:06 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | TiagoTiago_: what's wrong with white+black surfaces when lit with red, err orange light? | 06:06 |
| TiagoTiago_ | would it use too much processing power to make the particles in liqflow repell each other abit to avoid them pilling up in the same place? | 06:07 |
| TiagoTiago_ | if for example the surface i blue and black with red light it would look all dark | 06:07 |
| TiagoTiago_ | is* | 06:07 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | works perfecrly for me, with stock video cam, on a paper with normal printout it's abot 1.w lines size that's detected | 06:07 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, yes, there are alternatives :) | 06:07 |
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| lcuk | the original version made particles expire after a time and regen anywhere, and also regen at screen boundaries | 06:08 |
| TiagoTiago_ | ,why you changed? | 06:08 |
| lcuk | because its nice to have it working like it does | 06:09 |
| lcuk | but the variations will return | 06:09 |
| TiagoTiago_ | perhaps the lines could introduce random tyurbulence on the particles that get close enough? | 06:09 |
| lcuk | theres been many things | 06:09 |
| lcuk | theres already random turbulance on the entire thing :) | 06:09 |
| lcuk | or did you think the accelerometer was totally smooth ;) | 06:09 |
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| lcuk | you can get those particles out of a well | 06:10 |
| lcuk | if you swing device | 06:10 |
| lcuk | or tip it around etc | 06:10 |
| lcuk | :) | 06:10 |
| TiagoTiago_ | then why do the particles often eventually get all in a single thin line following one of the traces? | 06:10 |
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| lcuk | why do clouds generally sit at one level in the sky | 06:11 |
| TiagoTiago_ | hm, nonlinear pressure gradients? | 06:11 |
| lcuk | similar effect happening here :P | 06:11 |
| TiagoTiago_ | dunno | 06:11 |
| TiagoTiago_ | hm | 06:11 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liqflow_test.AVI | 06:12 |
| lcuk | thats the very original version about 10 minutes after i coded it | 06:12 |
| lcuk | it didnt even have accelerometer support then :) | 06:13 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | 'm seeeing the stuff from liqflow in the full black pixels of my wallpaper, is that on purpose? | 06:14 |
| lcuk | no | 06:15 |
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| lcuk | chances are you have the version from extras itself | 06:15 |
| lcuk | which still needs updating | 06:15 |
| TiagoTiago_ | is there one on -dev? | 06:15 |
| lcuk | yeah | 06:15 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | but while testing this video thing, I noticed a nice WTF: since I installed fcam(?) I have to start maemo camera explicitly as it doesn't startup on lens slider... well ok. BUT closing lens slider making cam window vanish and still camera-ui eating some 40perc cpu, while device GUI is basically frozen, that's definitley not appreciated :-( | 06:16 |
| TiagoTiago_ | i got -dev enabled, why did i get the one from -test instead? | 06:16 |
| lcuk | hm | 06:16 |
| TiagoTiago_ | haven't noticed that yet | 06:16 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | what would happen if you killed any particles that got too closed to other particles, recreating them somewhere randomlly?? | 06:18 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, it would slow everything down | 06:19 |
| TiagoTiago_ | :( | 06:19 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, theres ways round it of course | 06:19 |
| lcuk | but i like making spiral galaxies and watching them spin round | 06:20 |
| TiagoTiago_ | heh | 06:21 |
| lcuk | i should put the config options together properly | 06:21 |
| lcuk | it should be possible to c | 06:21 |
| lcuk | switch out the engine for a new one | 06:21 |
| lcuk | ive already got some variations (theres an alpha blended variant for instance | 06:22 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liqflow.stars.test.20091224_018.jpg | 06:22 |
| lcuk | and that sort of thing ^ | 06:22 |
| TiagoTiago_ | how do i access the config window? | 06:22 |
| lcuk | there isnt one for those | 06:22 |
| TiagoTiago_ | you mented it earlier as well | 06:23 |
| lcuk | :) indeed i did | 06:23 |
| TiagoTiago_ | it's the same non existent one? | 06:23 |
| TiagoTiago_ | another benefit of the white LEDs over the red one is they are much brighter,, allowing for shorter exposure time per frame | 06:24 |
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| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, http://liqbase.net/liq.20100920_042834.liqflow_run1.scr.png | 06:29 |
| lcuk | it exists | 06:29 |
| TiagoTiago_ | how do i get there? | 06:29 |
| lcuk | you dont yet | 06:30 |
| TiagoTiago_ | ah | 06:30 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | hm, interesting thing happens if you make a zigzag scribble, back and forth over itself, the particles form a straight line somewhat orthogonal to the scribble | 06:32 |
| lcuk | sure | 06:33 |
| * lcuk can make a love heart | 06:33 | |
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| TiagoTiago_ | lol | 06:34 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/20091219_002.jpg | 06:34 |
| lcuk | harder than you think TiagoTiago_ ;) | 06:34 |
| TiagoTiago_ | you blurred so i can't see the lines yu drew? | 06:35 |
| lcuk | but it was stable and pulsing beating | 06:35 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, i blurred it because i am a crap cameraman | 06:35 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | lol | 06:35 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, one of the things for livewp stuff | 06:37 |
| luke-jr | Arr, how ye be my maties?? | 06:37 |
| lcuk | was to do the same as i do for other sketches | 06:37 |
| lcuk | and record sometimes and playback others | 06:37 |
| TiagoTiago_ | why the particles don't look shaken when i shake it? is it because of the toroidal topology? | 06:37 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, that was yesterday ya skurvy sea dog | 06:37 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: nay, nay, today it is! | 06:38 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, they grow normally with banging | 06:38 |
| luke-jr | the nigh draw near, but has not come yet! | 06:38 |
| lcuk | but i noticed recent one didnt include it | 06:38 |
| TiagoTiago_ | no, i mean, they continue moving like it hasn't been shaken | 06:38 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, aye thar be grog a plenty and buxon wenches to plunder still today | 06:38 |
| TiagoTiago_ | or is it what its to be expected from particles floating in a liquid? | 06:39 |
| TiagoTiago_ | is it talk like a pirate day already? | 06:39 |
| luke-jr | my wench isn't here to plunder :( | 06:39 |
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| luke-jr | TiagoTiago_: almost over, n0b | 06:39 |
| TiagoTiago_ | :( | 06:39 |
| lcuk | mind you, as tracy said, i dont need a specific day to talk like a pirate | 06:39 |
| TiagoTiago_ | lol | 06:40 |
| lcuk | TiagoTiago_, have a play with the code | 06:40 |
| lcuk | and see what you can alter to make it fit | 06:40 |
| lcuk | it should be possible to give accelerometer more of an effect | 06:40 |
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| lcuk | it only uses 0.08 * acc readings at the mo | 06:42 |
| TiagoTiago_ | i probably don't know enough to know what to do, also, would i even be able to do it int he de vice itself or does it need to be compiled on a desktop/laptop? | 06:42 |
| TiagoTiago_ | weird random placement of spaces.....] | 06:42 |
| lcuk | liqflow builds from source on device in ~10seconds fully | 06:42 |
| TiagoTiago_ | erm, damn fat fingers syndrome | 06:42 |
| lcuk | but only changing liqflow_run.c takes ~3 seconds per build | 06:42 |
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| lcuk | oops | 06:45 |
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| lcuk | changed gravity effect to 0.28 | 06:45 |
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| lcuk | and it has more of an effect when you shake it now | 06:45 |
| lcuk | just the particles fall like boulders | 06:45 |
| TiagoTiago_ | the version i got is 0.1.7 , is that the latest one? | 06:46 |
| lcuk | yeah | 06:47 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: writing the Qt killer? | 06:47 |
| lcuk | no luke-jr | 06:48 |
| * lcuk adores qt and wishes he could make use of more of it | 06:49 | |
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| luke-jr | :p | 06:51 |
| luke-jr | Nokia bought Qt... it won't last long XD | 06:51 |
| TiagoTiago_ | Symbian is still around | 06:51 |
| luke-jr | didn't Nokia buy Qt before Symbian? | 06:52 |
| luke-jr | and really... nobody uses Symbian XD | 06:52 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | you don't use symbian, you suffer it | 06:54 |
| lcuk | sigh | 06:55 |
| lcuk | it works well | 06:55 |
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| luke-jr | lol | 06:55 |
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| TiagoTiago_ | lol | 06:55 |
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| quanttrom | ls | 07:22 |
| quanttrom | oops | 07:22 |
| TiagoTiago_ | lo | 07:22 |
| TiagoTiago_ | lol* | 07:22 |
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| koffeekan | oh man. | 08:35 |
| TiagoTiago_ | what? | 08:35 |
| koffeekan | i figured out why my 770 kept crashing while trying to install tear | 08:35 |
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| koffeekan | i was on he2007 and its not even compatible | 08:36 |
| TiagoTiago_ | oh :/ | 08:36 |
| koffeekan | right? | 08:36 |
| TiagoTiago_ | dunno | 08:36 |
| koffeekan | i wish 2008he ran better on my 770 | 08:36 |
| koffeekan | i need to do the mem card hack | 08:37 |
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| jpinx-eeepc | just a silly thing, but when using the n900 kbd what are the keystrokes to replace Alt → (used to scroll through the windows in irssi) | 09:21 |
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| sp3000 | jpinx-eeepc: s/Alt/Esc/ works for that | 09:23 |
| jpinx | so it does thanks sp3000 | 09:24 |
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| jpinx-eeepc | it all makes me like the n900 more as I get it more useable | 09:25 |
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| th3_4zarado | P | 09:27 |
| rmrfchik | N8 OK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR0duOeaId8&feature=related | 09:28 |
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| kwtm | The n900 certainly does take some time to optimize for usability. | 09:38 |
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| ieatlint | rmrfchik: lol, that's an awesome video | 09:40 |
| ieatlint | i hope the N9 can match that | 09:41 |
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| kwtm | rmrfchik: Umm, is that video supposed to be impressive? Not saying one way or the other, but it looks like an ordinary smartphone. Is there something in particular I should be focusing on? | 09:43 |
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| mece | kwtm, I found it pretty funny. | 09:48 |
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| kwtm | mece: What was funny? Sorry, I didn't turn up the sound (my toddler's sleeping). Was it that the user trying to use it like an iPhone? | 09:50 |
| mece | rmrfchik, kwtm, I didn't really understand what she was doing. Looked like she was demoing the N8 to someone. | 09:51 |
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| ieatlint | sound isn't really important | 09:54 |
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| ieatlint | just watch what the phone is doing... | 09:54 |
| ieatlint | she wasn't able to get the images to zoom, and a couple apps crashed, and it froze and turned itself off when she tried to type in a phone number | 09:54 |
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| mece | ieatlint, I guess you can't run all installed apps at once after all then | 09:56 |
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| ieatlint | you're making assumptions... you don't need to make excuses for it | 09:57 |
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| mece | ieatlint, huh? | 09:58 |
| ieatlint | you don't know that it was running an unreasonable number of applications is what i'm saying | 09:58 |
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| rmrfchik | kwtm: it's just usual nokia fail. nothing new | 10:00 |
| mece | ieatlint, I guess. It didn't behave like the one I poked at, so I figured there was a lot of stuff running. | 10:00 |
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| sx0n | ieatlint, n8 is ok. i like it, even it is S^3 | 10:07 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: You know, this is my first time owning a Nokia, and I thought it would be so awesome because Nokia makes so many phones. I was so disappointed at the interface. | 10:07 |
| mece | kwtm, what phone is that? | 10:08 |
| kwtm | Sorry, should have specified. Got me a n900. | 10:08 |
| jpinx-eeepc | kwtm: stick with it - was too at the beginning but now I really like it | 10:08 |
| mece | kwtm, then you're doing it wrong. Nothing comes close to the n900 | 10:08 |
| kwtm | When I got it, I was thinking, "What the bloody **** was nokia thinking??? My ancient Treo 650 was easier to use than this!!!" | 10:08 |
| psycho_oreos | its a bit of love it or hate it relationship with n900, don't worry, come 6 months `novelty period' time and we'll see if you still own it ;) | 10:09 |
| kwtm | jpinx-eeepc: Oh, I agree. I can't live without my N900. It is able to do so many things that other phones can't. But it would be so much better if Nokia actually hired someone with brains to design the GUI. | 10:09 |
| kwtm | mece: When you say "nothing comes close", do you mean the capabilities/features or the user interface? I agree with you on the former. | 10:10 |
| kwtm | mece: And, of course, the possibility that anything at all is modifiable on this FOSS phone. But the stuff it does come with leaves much to be desired. | 10:10 |
| rmrfchik | n900/maemo is not about easiness. it's about geekness and nokia's research (following, as usual, fail) | 10:10 |
| kwtm | I should actually blog about the deficiencies in N900. Not that it would actually make any differencve at Nokia. | 10:10 |
| mece | kwtm, I like the UI too. | 10:11 |
| jpinx-eeepc | kwtm: don't waste your time | 10:11 |
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| kwtm | rmrfchik: Yeah. Like X-Fade said the other day, "It's not a PHONE! It's an INTERNET TABLET (with phone capabilities)". XD | 10:11 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: maemo is not FOSS | 10:11 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Well, modifiable. At least the hildon thing is modifiable. | 10:11 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: so, lame excuse to flaws :0 | 10:11 |
| mece | rmrfchik, what flaws? | 10:12 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Yeah, I found out today that Maemo is not FOSS. How is it licensed, exactly? There's a proprietary core but a lot of it is OSS? | 10:12 |
| Stskeeps | 43% or so | 10:12 |
| rmrfchik | mece: input framework, contacts, skippng sounds, you name it | 10:12 |
| kwtm | mece: Each to his/her own, then. | 10:12 |
| Stskeeps | rmrfchik: input framework is open but not plugins | 10:12 |
| mece | kwtm, yep :) I can only speak for myself. | 10:12 |
| jpinx-eeepc | kwtm: I don't know of anything other than a netbook that can do what my n900 is doing right now - 6 browser windows, sms window, phone window, irssi in screen in a chroot, 12 documents and all ssh'd over to my eeepc :) | 10:13 |
| kwtm | Stskeeps: Is this, like, "79.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot"? | 10:13 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: there are proprieatry key features | 10:13 |
| Stskeeps | kwtm: no, sec | 10:13 |
| rmrfchik | Stskeeps: it doesn't help to fix input for non-latin | 10:13 |
| sx0n | std Monday nagging day, /me gets a cup coffee | 10:13 |
| kwtm | Okay, just tio clarify: I love my n900. BUt only because I'm forced to love it because nothing else comes close. | 10:13 |
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| Stskeeps | kwtm: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/02/mapping-openness-of-maemo-50-pr11-and.html | 10:13 |
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| Stskeeps | kwtm: http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/maemo.org/openness/pr1.1/ | 10:13 |
| kwtm | Stskeeps: Ah, I see. :) | 10:14 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: agree, same as me -- there is no alternative. | 10:14 |
| Stskeeps | if you want open maemo, go for meego :P | 10:14 |
| rmrfchik | and I'm hoping to jump off nokia's train soon. | 10:14 |
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| kwtm | mece: Maybe you've found a way around the flaws in the GUI; if so, I'd love to get your advice on these: | 10:14 |
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| mece | rmrfchik, my contacts work fine and my sound doesn't skip, and I dont' really know what the input thing means. It could use some more ram though :) | 10:14 |
| mece | kwtm, what are those flaws then? | 10:15 |
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| kwtm | For example, hildon is supposed to be "finger friendly". So, when I hold down my finger and it pops up the "context window" (the equivalent of | 10:15 |
| jpinx-eeepc | Stskeeps: the "openness" issue is with hardware drivers or I would just install debian :) | 10:15 |
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| rmrfchik | mece: oh, so, you can detach skype/jabber acoount from contact without deleting on server? | 10:15 |
| Mece_ | switching.. :) | 10:15 |
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| kwtm | mece: the "context menu" on right-click on the desktop), why does the menu open RIGHT UNDERNEATH my finger where I can't see it? | 10:15 |
| rmrfchik | mece: you has custum fields? | 10:15 |
| Stskeeps | jpinx-eeepc: well, BME is redistributable blob, SGX will be redistributable blob, wifi and bt firmware the same | 10:15 |
| rmrfchik | mece: or you can sync with google? | 10:15 |
| Stskeeps | jpinx-eeepc: and don't fool yourself, debian on mobile devices is crap at power saving | 10:15 |
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| kwtm | Mece_: And then it's so easy to select the top item without even seeing what it is. | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | been there done that | 10:16 |
| rmrfchik | mece: may be u has contact groups? ;) | 10:16 |
| jpinx-eeepc | Stskeeps: where's this blogged? | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | jpinx-eeepc: which part? | 10:16 |
| kwtm | Mece_: And who on earth designed the email program so that the top item which is automatically selected is "Delete this email"??? | 10:16 |
| jpinx-eeepc | Stskeeps: getting a free OS onto the n900 | 10:16 |
| kwtm | Mece_: What they *should* do is pop up the context menu somewhere OTHER THAN where my finger is stabbing, so I can actually see it! | 10:16 |
| jpinx-eeepc | free as in open gpl | 10:17 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, hold on. one at a time... | 10:17 |
| Stskeeps | jpinx-eeepc: several places, but if you don't want closed blobs (the very damn few there are), you're pretty much out of luck | 10:17 |
| jpinx-eeepc | Stskeeps: :/ | 10:17 |
| kwtm | Mece_: Okay, holding. Would love to make this GUI more usable... | 10:17 |
| kwtm | Oh, meego is FOSS but maemo isn't? | 10:18 |
| rmrfchik | mece: and about input: you can't switch layout when u have no input line. so type-to-search doesn't work | 10:18 |
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| rmrfchik | mece: and in 90% typing _starts_ with latin layout although layout IS alternative | 10:18 |
| Stskeeps | kwtm: meego.com is FOSS, N900 hardware adaptation and Aava hardware adaptation has some non-oss bits, but redistributable | 10:18 |
| rmrfchik | that's so annoying | 10:18 |
| Stskeeps | for hardware support exclusively | 10:18 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Curious: what non-latin language would you prefer to use? | 10:19 |
| Stskeeps | jpinx-eeepc: basically we had a debian on n810 project and it's simply not usable beyond 4-5 hours of battery life | 10:19 |
| Stskeeps | in idle, too | 10:19 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:19 |
| kwtm | Stskeeps: What phones will end up using Meego? Maybe I can try a non-Nokia thing next time. | 10:19 |
| Stskeeps | kwtm: no idea | 10:19 |
| Stskeeps | i dabble in software, hardware is up to the big boys | 10:20 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:20 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, i guess I never tried to detach a skype account. that's pretty annoying. | 10:20 |
| Mece_ | is there a bug for this? | 10:21 |
| kwtm | Mece_: I think you probably meant to direct that line to someone else. rmrfchik, perhaps? | 10:21 |
| jpinx-eeepc | Stskeeps: shame about the debian pwer problem... | 10:21 |
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| Mece_ | perhaps. I don't see the history here. | 10:21 |
| hrw | morning | 10:22 |
| hrw | wazd: pong | 10:22 |
| kwtm | It's rmrfchik. Hey, rmrfchik, you want to comment? | 10:22 |
| RST38h | moo all | 10:23 |
| Stskeeps | jpinx-eeepc: debian's a server and desktop os, not a mobile os | 10:23 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:23 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: russian | 10:23 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, I never even thought about the popup menu thing as an issue, so I guess it doesn't bother me. | 10:23 |
| RST38h | VMware Looks To Acquire Novell's SUSE Unit | 10:23 |
| * RST38h laughs satanically | 10:23 | |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: and there is a bug filed | 10:23 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: That's crummy. | 10:24 |
| Mece_ | rmrfchik, is there a bug for the detaching of skype details? | 10:24 |
| Mece_ | rmrfchik, I never did it so it never bothered me. | 10:24 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: input was broken in PR1.2. this shows that nokia do not test basic use cases :( | 10:25 |
| jpinx-eeepc | Stskeeps: true indeed, but it's modus operandi makes it very user friendly for non-experts | 10:25 |
| RST38h | rmrfchik: which they will not fix | 10:25 |
| kwtm | Mece_: Okay, so that' point's moot. What about scrolling --if you have a long list and you want to get to the bottom quickly (say, a list of contacts and you want to phone one near the bottom of the list), how do you go quickly to the bottom? Ctrl-Down doesn't seem to work. | 10:25 |
| RST38h | rmrfchik: after all, they failed fixing the language switch for non-cyrillic physical keyboards | 10:25 |
| kwtm | Mece_: So I end up having to stroke my finger upward, like, 50 times to get to the bottom. | 10:25 |
| rmrfchik | Mece_: now I have merged contacts with wrong skype/jabber. | 10:26 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Oh, don't even get me started on merging/importing contacts... | 10:26 |
| Mece_ | rmrfchik, well that blows. | 10:26 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: The stupid thing wouldn't import more than 1000 contacts at once. | 10:26 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: (and Mece_, this will be a question for you soon, too) so it only imported 1000 contacts, and then I'm stuck trying to figure out how to import the rest of the contacts without getting stuck with duplicate contacts. | 10:27 |
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| rmrfchik | kwtm: there is a "find duplicates" software in extras. works very nice. | 10:28 |
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| rmrfchik | kwtm: try it | 10:28 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Aha, I was waiting for someone to mention that. | 10:28 |
| rmrfchik | ;) | 10:28 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: So, first of all, I don't need to *find* duplicates, because they are tehre right in front of me. Every single one of the contacts ended up being duplicated. | 10:28 |
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| kwtm | rmrfchik: Second, yes, there is a *merge* duplicates software. And guess what it does? | 10:29 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, heh, well I don't have over 1000 contacts so I don't have that problem. and I rarely bump in to giant lists that can't be shortened by typing. appmanager list scrolls super fast. | 10:29 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: tell me | 10:29 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, file manager actually. that one is painfully slow for scrolling | 10:29 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: It says, "Here are the list of duplicates I found. WHich ones would you like me to merge"? So after 15 minutes of tapping on the checkbox of every contact, I've done about 70 or 80 contacts. | 10:30 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Apparently there is no facility for "check every one of these ****ing checkboxes so I don't ahve to spend two hours doing it myself!" | 10:30 |
| rmrfchik | to continue about nokia/maemo flaws. as skype goes online it download ALL chats it can freezing device for 10 mins (i suppose, telepathy is soooo slow when accessing messages) | 10:30 |
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| Mece_ | kwtm, I guess the file manager or file picker scrolling is the most annoying thing I've run in to. | 10:31 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: hehe, welcome to nokia's world | 10:31 |
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| kwtm | Mece_: Okay, so that point's moot too. I guess you just haven't needed to deal with the flaws that I've found. Maybe Nokia engineers also don't have very many friends so they say, "I didn't see any problems with scrolling through my complete list of my two friends." | 10:31 |
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| kwtm | Mece_: (Not directing that insult at you, but really, Nokia should use more test cases...) | 10:31 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, I guess they had me in mind they made the thing. | 10:32 |
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| kwtm | Mece_: the app manager jumps to the app when you start typing the name, but even the launcher doesn't! | 10:32 |
| kwtm | Mece_: So when I want to run a program for which there is no shortcut, it's back to "scroll scroll scroll" / stroke stroke stroke! | 10:32 |
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| kwtm | I think I will get rich by getting tendinitis using the N900 and then sueing Nokia. | 10:33 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: something is sayining me -- PR1.3 will be tested much worse. | 10:33 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Oh, and --get this-- I find my contacts faster going through the text file in vim (with incremental search) than actually using the Contacts program itself. | 10:34 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, oh that launcher. I don't have so many apps I guess. for some reason it scrolls a little slow though. MohammadAG made a fix for that though. | 10:34 |
| kwtm | Mece_: Really? How do I get the fix? | 10:34 |
| kwtm | Mece_: Why, how many apps do you have? After all, installing apps is the purpose of the N900. (That and dropping to shell. :) ) | 10:34 |
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| Khertan1 | Hi guys ! | 10:35 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, hmm.. there's a thread on tmo somewhere | 10:35 |
| Mece_ | Khertan1, hi | 10:35 |
| kwtm | MohammadAG51: Hey, we're talking about you. You awake? | 10:35 |
| Khertan1 | Hi Mece | 10:35 |
| Khertan1 | someone maybe can help me with dbus ... i'm not able to get notification call back | 10:36 |
| Khertan1 | and i didn't understand why | 10:36 |
| Mece_ | Khertan1, I was wondering, are you still working on Khteditor | 10:36 |
| kwtm | Mece_: Okay, next up: the lack of a decent portrait mode for the majority of the apps out there. | 10:36 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, which is obviously moot :P | 10:36 |
| Khertan1 | Mece_: between two release of Khweeteur | 10:36 |
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| Khertan1 | Mece_: but yet there is modification not yet release in extras devel in the git repository | 10:37 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:37 |
| Khertan1 | Morning Jaffa | 10:37 |
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| kwtm | rmrfchik: You think we can hold off until Meego comes out? | 10:37 |
| X-Fade | Morning | 10:37 |
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| Khertan1 | Morning X-Fade | 10:38 |
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| Mece_ | Khertan1, I have a feature request. Are you interested in such? | 10:38 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: well, I'm not going to buy another nokia's device | 10:38 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Any suggestions? Are you looking at an Android device? Those are a lot more locked down, yes? | 10:39 |
| Khertan1 | Mece_: yep if someone will use it why not implement it :) | 10:39 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: so, i will be interested in meego only when htc/asus/acer/younameit will announce device | 10:39 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: yes, thinking about android now. but will use n900 as long as it stays alive | 10:39 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Agreed. Because then we will be free of Vendor lock-in. So, actually, I will be interested in Meego when HTC/etc. announce a device, but at that point I will plan to use it on the N900. | 10:39 |
| rmrfchik | it was TOOO expenisve in russia just to change | 10:39 |
| * raster waves hands around about maybe stuff from samsung shipping with full linux os's ala maemo :) | 10:40 | |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Curious: how much did your N900 cost? | 10:40 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: wtf "vendor lock-in"? | 10:40 |
| Mece_ | Khertan1, I've been doing some qml stuff, and was wondering if khteditor could support qml and launching with qmlviewer? | 10:40 |
| kwtm | raster: Really? Any keywords to google, other than " | 10:40 |
| rmrfchik | raster: Bada? | 10:40 |
| raster | kwtm: unfortunately no :( | 10:40 |
| kwtm | raster: Really? Any keywords to google, other than "samsung linux maemo raster hand-waving"? | 10:40 |
| raster | well "samsung linux platform" | 10:40 |
| raster | all thats up is an sdk we released | 10:40 |
| raster | working on it atm | 10:41 |
| Khertan1 | Mece_: hum ... what is the command line to launch the qmlviewer with a qml ? | 10:41 |
| raster | stay tuned | 10:41 |
| raster | :) | 10:41 |
| raster | rmrfchik: not bada. | 10:41 |
| raster | full linux | 10:41 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: "vendor lock-in" = "this is only available from Nokia, and if Nokia decides to shut down this project, you N900 owners are all out of luck!" + "HA" x 10. | 10:41 |
| rmrfchik | err... bada is same linux as maemo | 10:41 |
| Khertan1 | Mece_: does there is somewhere a description for the syntax highlight ? | 10:41 |
| raster | x11, glibc, debian packages (linaro/ubuntu ish core) | 10:41 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: ahh.. yeah | 10:41 |
| raster | rmrfchik: bada is nothinmg likae maemo | 10:41 |
| raster | nothing in the slightest | 10:41 |
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| raster | its more like android | 10:42 |
| raster | totally custom userspace | 10:42 |
| rmrfchik | raster: well, ok | 10:42 |
| RST38h | Bada is a bad copy of Symbian, judging by its APIs | 10:42 |
| raster | and currently shipped bada devicesa dont use linux | 10:42 |
| psycho_oreos | so bada is also linux OS underneath? | 10:42 |
| raster | they use nucleus as the kernel | 10:42 |
| raster | forget bada | 10:42 |
| rmrfchik | raster: really?? didn't knew that | 10:42 |
| rmrfchik | what a shame for samsung, lol | 10:42 |
| raster | oather part of samsung that is doing stuff in its own bubble :) | 10:42 |
| raster | yeah | 10:42 |
| RST38h | Well, have you expected anything else from Samsung? | 10:42 |
| Mece_ | Khertan1, /opt/qt4-maemo5/bin/qmlviewer program.qml -fullscreen | 10:42 |
| * rmrfchik didn't count bada as real competitor | 10:43 | |
| raster | officially i'm tasked with building community around our linux efforts | 10:43 |
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| Mece_ | Khertan1, assuming you have qmlviewer installed | 10:43 |
| raster | as such our linux stuff is damned close to maemo/meego in structure | 10:43 |
| raster | and os | 10:43 |
| RST38h | raster: our = ? | 10:43 |
| kwtm | Yeah, I wasn't that impressed with Bada or Android because they "use linux" to run their own program which then runs all these apps. I don't see Debian being cross-compiled for Bada or the Dalvik Java Virtual Machine... | 10:43 |
| Mece_ | Khertan1, -fullscreen is optional, but my app is fullscreen :) | 10:43 |
| raster | if i get my way it also will only be locked down as far as having to agree to void your warranty to get root access | 10:43 |
| raster | (you have to make the telcos happy somehow) | 10:44 |
| raster | RST38h: i work for samsung. | 10:44 |
| psycho_oreos | meh if bada isn't linux, its never worth looking into.. that was the only thing that got me constantly curious. Samsung could never officially declare if their OS was either custom or linux based because they probably like to keep people guessing | 10:44 |
| kwtm | raster: Oh, wait, what's this? You represent Samsung in some sort of official capacity? I'm interested. How linux is it? | 10:44 |
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| RST38h | raster: ah, still? | 10:44 |
| raster | RST38h: @ hq. principal engineer. i report to the evp in charge of linux dev. my orders come from executive and i pretty much have free lateral reign to dowhatever it takes | 10:45 |
| kwtm | raster: ok, you answered my question about working for samsung. | 10:45 |
| raster | kwtm: i do. | 10:45 |
| RST38h | raster: just move them to meego/maemo/whatever :) | 10:45 |
| raster | i'm just formulating precisely what to do atm | 10:45 |
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| raster | RST38h: no chance. qt. rpm. | 10:45 |
| RST38h | raster: 'cause the Bada thing is just a bad reimplementation of Symbian | 10:45 |
| raster | RST38h: we are basically invested in deb | 10:45 |
| RST38h | raster: What is wrong with Qt or RPM? | 10:45 |
| raster | RST38h: nothing i can do about bada | 10:45 |
| RST38h | raster: Oh, that...no problem | 10:45 |
| raster | different group entirely | 10:45 |
| raster | samsung is a massive company | 10:46 |
| RST38h | raster: You *can* use both Qt and deb | 10:46 |
| Khertan1 | Mece_: the best i think will be to made a setting for custom launch command by syntax | 10:46 |
| kwtm | raster: Okay, I recognize that we can't just tell Samsung to disband Bada and switch to Meego, but how likely/how effortless would it be to port apps to Bada? I mean, is it linux, then? | 10:46 |
| raster | its got too many independently waving tentacles | 10:46 |
| psycho_oreos | yeah but Symbian isn't linux, its something that resembles more of a cynical version of windows | 10:46 |
| Stskeeps | raster: qt, really? no efl? :P | 10:46 |
| raster | RST38h: politically qt is bad. its nokia tech. | 10:46 |
| Stskeeps | oh, right | 10:46 |
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| RST38h | raster: It is LGPL, who give a damn? | 10:47 |
| raster | Stskeeps: qt is technically a good toolkit. i personally dont like it as it sucks u inot c++ land | 10:47 |
| raster | and that comes with its own performance issues and i just never liked its api personally | 10:47 |
| raster | but thats a personal thing | 10:47 |
| Mece_ | Khertan1, ok.. :) currently khteditor gets stuck somehow and the "busy" icon remains visible when you open a qml file. | 10:47 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: why ever samsungs should switch to meego? I think all major players want to have non-compatible software stack | 10:47 |
| raster | technically its a very good toolkit | 10:47 |
| raster | politically its no-go :( | 10:47 |
| Khertan1 | Mece_ yep i made an error in the pygments call | 10:47 |
| raster | well only way samsung would consider meego is if it changed to deb and made efl and gtk first class toolkit citizens :) | 10:47 |
| kwtm | raster: Aww, that's crummy that Samsung won't use Nokia tech. I mean, it's GPL'd, for crying out loud. I'd love it for someone at Samsung to think, "Hey, if we switch to Qt, we can go stick Nokia in the gut!" or something. | 10:47 |
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| * rmrfchik don't likey c++/python but there is no good alternative. | 10:48 | |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Well, I was hoping that they'd say, "There's a huge apps base out there so: 1) we wouldn't ahve to develop so many apps, and 2) people would buy us because there are already so many apps". | 10:48 |
| RST38h | raster: it is easier to make your own debian-based distro then | 10:48 |
| rmrfchik | lucky android developers has java | 10:48 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: I mean, N900 runs *Gnumeric*, for crying out loud!! | 10:48 |
| raster | kwtm: not useful for us | 10:48 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: ;) | 10:48 |
| raster | and hell - what we have works as good or better than qt anyway | 10:49 |
| RST38h | raster: making another linux distro is no rocket science | 10:49 |
| raster | efl. | 10:49 |
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| Khertan1 | rmrfchik: unluckely android developpers have only java | 10:49 |
| * rmrfchik was impressed last freeoffice release with google docs support | 10:49 | |
| raster | RST38h: for us its deb stuff | 10:49 |
| raster | we are there already | 10:49 |
| kwtm | "efl" = ? someone explain please. | 10:49 |
| RST38h | aha | 10:49 |
| rmrfchik | Khertan1: plus all running atop of it. they has SCHEME! | 10:49 |
| RST38h | kwtm: google, no? | 10:49 |
| kwtm | RST38h: Explain "google". Is that the answer to "efl=?" | 10:50 |
| Khertan1 | rmrfchik: burk | 10:50 |
| raster | kwtm: enlightenment.org | 10:50 |
| raster | :) | 10:50 |
| kwtm | Khertan1: And is it the same Java as Sun Java, or do you have to port everything to the Dalvik Java? | 10:50 |
| rmrfchik | Khertan1: translation failed. syntax error 2. | 10:50 |
| raster | as such the whole toolkit works fast either in software or in opengl (it does a much better job of utilising opengl than qt does last i checked with our crazy french guys who compared the 2) | 10:51 |
| kwtm | rmrfchik: Are you auto-translating? Khertan1 had spelling errors. Should be "unlucky android developers have only java" | 10:51 |
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| raster | much like clutter - efl canbe completely gpu cbased | 10:51 |
| raster | e17 has a gpu and software compositor all built on evas | 10:51 |
| raster | (part of efl) | 10:52 |
| raster | on my device here it's silky smooth :) | 10:52 |
| raster | (ie 60fps+ @ wvga+) | 10:52 |
| kwtm | raster: Wow, are you saying that there are some aspects in which Qt is worse than GNOME/Gtk? I was trying to figure out why the whole world wasn't already using Qt. | 10:52 |
| raster | nah | 10:52 |
| raster | gtk/gnome is even worse | 10:52 |
| raster | :) | 10:52 |
| raster | talking efl | 10:52 |
| raster | :) | 10:53 |
| Khertan1 | kwtm: the reason was the old licence | 10:53 |
| kwtm | "efl" = "Enlightenment For Linux"? | 10:53 |
| raster | no | 10:53 |
| raster | enlightenment foundation libraries | 10:53 |
| Khertan1 | raster: does efl has release something stable ? | 10:53 |
| Khertan1 | :) | 10:53 |
| raster | keh alpha release | 10:53 |
| raster | Khertan1: alpha release done | 10:53 |
| raster | beta should happne this week | 10:53 |
| raster | its stable | 10:53 |
| kwtm | Khertan1: Yeah, but other than historically, now we should all ditch Gtk and go to Qt, right? I mean, they went GPL finally, and then the guys at Canonica say, "Oh, but GPL is *too* free --we should use something that uses LGPL".... come on, man!!! | 10:54 |
| raster | my idea of alpha == what most people think is v3.0 :) | 10:54 |
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| raster | kwtm: qt is lgpl :) | 10:54 |
| kwtm | raster: Well, alpha is version 4.2, if you ask the KDE team. :P | 10:54 |
| Mece_ | raster, so efl is better than qt? Actually there is efl for n900 so one could simply compare, would one be bothered. | 10:55 |
| raster | kwtm: i rest my case :) | 10:55 |
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| kwtm | raster: Is it? Boy, score another point for Qt. I guess it just comes down to politics. | 10:55 |
| raster | Mece_: depends. qt has more mature widgets. efl has a better rendering pipeline and canvas with custom ui's | 10:55 |
| raster | MacDrunk: and there is efl for n900 | 10:55 |
| raster | check maemo extras | 10:55 |
| Khertan1 | Mece_ : does this (http://gitorious.org/kate/kate/blobs/master/part/syntax/data/qml.xml) cover all qml syntax highlighting ? | 10:55 |
| raster | look for evas | 10:55 |
| raster | canola uses efl | 10:56 |
| raster | for example | 10:56 |
| raster | kwtm: politics is a factor | 10:56 |
| raster | personal preference is another | 10:56 |
| Khertan1 | raster: and his a disaster, not easy to port, and full of bugs :) | 10:56 |
| Khertan1 | s/his/is | 10:56 |
| raster | but c++ costs you startup and linking time for sure | 10:56 |
| raster | yes - done the prelink hacks | 10:56 |
| kwtm | raster: I guess the N900, capable of either Gtk/EFL or Qt, is the best of both worlds... | 10:56 |
| raster | basic c (efl) things load and link in a fraction of the time the SAMe apps take if they start using c++ libs | 10:57 |
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| Mece_ | Khertan1, looks pretty good to me. I guess there are changes now and then, but the brunt is there :) | 10:57 |
| kwtm | raster: Out of curiosity, where are you geographically located? Samsung Korea? | 10:57 |
| raster | kwtm: yes. | 10:57 |
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| Khertan1 | Mece_: it s a part of Kate :) | 10:58 |
| rmrfchik | kwtm: burk | 10:58 |
| kwtm | raster: Okay, so back to the bottom line. When I buy my next smartphone next year, if I go Bada, how many apps should I expect to find? About half as many as currently available for maemo? More? Less? | 10:58 |
| raster | kwtm: dunno. as i said. dont bother abotu bada :) | 10:58 |
| Mece_ | one of the reasons I love my N900 is that I'm not stuck with a single library. gtk, qt, efl, liqbase... the more the merrier, that's what I say.. | 10:59 |
| Mece_ | Khertan1, I take it that simplifies things? | 10:59 |
| raster | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FYVYtoAT4&feature=player_embedded | 10:59 |
| raster | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNys6l65K4o&feature=player_embedded | 10:59 |
| raster | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXK20xuislI&feature=player_embedded | 10:59 |
| kwtm | raster: Oh... I didn't realize that part. So, ignore Bada and wait for something more linuxy to come out on Samsung? Is there a name, like "Cada" or "Dada" or is that a secret? | 10:59 |
| raster | n900 compositor / gl drivers have quite a lot of issues tho for gl rendering stuff :( | 10:59 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, Dodo perhaps | 10:59 |
| raster | so fullscreen thigns are much faster as compositor turns off | 11:00 |
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| raster | kwtm: dunno. call it slp for now :) | 11:00 |
| ieatlint | just when i think efl is dead again... :P | 11:00 |
| raster | going to try and get proepr sdk and some os images and hw out sometime soonish | 11:00 |
| raster | not final production smartphone stuff | 11:00 |
| raster | for now more beagle-boardy level hw | 11:01 |
| raster | ieatlint: not dead at all :) | 11:01 |
| raster | did alpha release last month | 11:01 |
| ieatlint | hehe | 11:01 |
| ieatlint | takes me back to openmoko.. | 11:01 |
| kwtm | raster: Okay, "SLP". So in 12 months' time, about how many apps can I hope for on a Samsung SLP phone, compared to for Maemo5 on N900? | 11:01 |
| kwtm | ieatlint: Yeah, I was going to go to OpenMoko but am glad I didn't. | 11:02 |
| raster | kwtm: if you have a time machine i can jump into the future in.. let me borrow it and i'll let you know :) | 11:02 |
| ieatlint | i will say writing apps for efl wasn't bad at all -- once you get past the docs, heh | 11:02 |
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| raster | kwtm: freerunner was crappy hw... totally opposite of samsung's babies :) | 11:03 |
| raster | nice hw | 11:03 |
| raster | efl runs like a greased chicken on this | 11:03 |
| raster | :) | 11:03 |
| kwtm | raster: Okay, I know that was a big vague question, but let me be more specific. SUppose someone wants to port some killer app to SLP --say, Vim. So, how long would you estimate it would take a developer to port vim... a month? A week? Half a year? | 11:03 |
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| raster | kwtm: its glibc. x11. standard fileutils | 11:04 |
| kwtm | raster: I have the ability to travel into the future, at a rate of 60 seconds per minute. :) | 11:04 |
| raster | ubuntu (basically) base | 11:04 |
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| raster | for vim u'd apt-get install vim :) | 11:04 |
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| raster | but i get the point | 11:04 |
| raster | u mean generic apps | 11:04 |
| raster | u mean gui apps? | 11:04 |
| raster | assuch we intentd to ship both efl and gtk and support both | 11:04 |
| raster | efl right now is our primary internal toolkit as it frankly works better than anything else | 11:05 |
| kwtm | raster: Oh. That's good news! So, I'd estimate a delay of, say, about 3 months after the first developer version of the phone is released, and then a flood of stuff from Ubuntu after people have set up the infrastructure to port everything over? | 11:05 |
| raster | (and luckily they have me to make sure that in the event it doesnt... that changes) | 11:05 |
| Mece_ | damn these interesting discussions. I'm totally missing this lecture... | 11:05 |
| kwtm | Mece_: Wait, you're paying attention to the lecture? Who do you think you are, some student or something? :D | 11:05 |
| raster | kwtm: well as such ubuntu is already ported to arm. so it'd be a delay of.. lets say.. 0. | 11:05 |
| raster | :) | 11:05 |
| kwtm | raster: Wow. Okay. That's great. Another "bottom line" question that should be easier to answer: in how many months do you expect this SLP phone to be available to the general public? | 11:06 |
| kwtm | Mece_: What is the lecture about? | 11:07 |
| raster | kwtm: "dunno" | 11:07 |
| raster | even if i knew | 11:07 |
| Stskeeps | dear god, a ubuntu platform? | 11:07 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:07 |
| raster | "we dont release product schedules to the public" | 11:07 |
| raster | Stskeeps: hahahha | 11:07 |
| merlin1991 | aka "when it's done" | 11:07 |
| raster | the fact that i'm talking at all about what we are doing is highly un-samsung | 11:08 |
| kwtm | raster: Okay, let me put it this way. If I plan to buy another phone in June 2011, should I wait for samsung or buy whatever's available? | 11:08 |
| raster | it's kind of a new thing about being open and playing by the open source rules/game | 11:08 |
| raster | ie giving back to community. complying with gpl/other oss licenses (well maybe screwing up but INTENDING to comply and willing to make good on it if we screw up) | 11:09 |
| zutesmog | raster: Congrats on the approach, all I can see is I really hope it works out for you. | 11:09 |
| raster | kwtm: i'd wait for it. :) | 11:09 |
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| kwtm | Well, didn't Palm try the old "let's make it Linux so everyone will buy our phone" trick with the Palm Pre? (Followed by the "hey why did all the developers run away just because we provided zero support"?) | 11:09 |
| raster | as such samsung pestered me until i joine4d as they want oss "dna" in the group | 11:09 |
| raster | there area few others | 11:09 |
| kwtm | raster: Okay. Well, looking forward to the Samsung Linux Phone, whatever it is. | 11:09 |
| raster | we've been beating the whole oss philosophy around | 11:10 |
| Khertan1 | (Followed by the "hey why did all the developers run away just because we provided zero support"?) <<< no all developpers run away because the only language available was javascript | 11:10 |
| raster | as such executive - ie next layer up from me, support the oss way. | 11:10 |
| raster | its getting 100's of engineers to change their whole way of working/thinking that they have been doing for years/decades | 11:10 |
| kwtm | raster: If it helps you to convince the upper management any, know that I (and rmrfchik, I think) use the N900 because there is no alternative, and would seriously consider any competitor that lets us take advantage of already-existing apps on linux. | 11:10 |
| RST38h | raster: not engineers, managers | 11:11 |
| kwtm | raster: Yeah, I hear that personal computing in Korea is basically "Internet Explorer + ActiveX + Flash". | 11:11 |
| RST38h | raster: I doubt engineers care that much | 11:11 |
| raster | kwtm: i know that very dearly. i have an nm900 myself for just that reason | 11:11 |
| raster | RST38h: actually u'd be amazed. | 11:11 |
| RST38h | raster: Well never worked with Koreans, but Chinese do not care that much: everyone is using LGPLed libraries anyway | 11:12 |
| Mece_ | kwtm, advanced text-algorithms. | 11:12 |
| raster | RST38h: managers care. "middle management"/engineering (middle management in engineering being principal engineers and senior engineers) are another matter | 11:12 |
| ieatlint | raster: my guess is that your biggest fight is going to be getting anyone in the general public to care | 11:12 |
| raster | but its changing for the better | 11:12 |
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| raster | ieatlint: yup | 11:13 |
| ieatlint | FOSS isn't going to sway them... seemingly 3rd party apps do | 11:13 |
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| raster | ieatlint: but i have to start somewhere | 11:13 |
| ieatlint | and creating a new platform that only samsung uses... good luck :) | 11:13 |
| raster | as such what we have is rather sexy | 11:13 |
| raster | and its smooth | 11:13 |
| ieatlint | i bet | 11:13 |
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| raster | it is a full os under it | 11:13 |
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| raster | itsd possible to write apps just like u do for a desktop linux box | 11:13 |
| ieatlint | efl is great for small devices... looks pretty, and is snappy | 11:13 |
| kwtm | ieatlint: hear, hear. If you can get Gnumeric to run on the Samsungphone (using a fraction of the development effort), I think that's really going to sway the market. | 11:14 |
| raster | so it lowers the barrier of entry for devs | 11:14 |
| raster | i guess | 11:14 |
| ieatlint | sure -- but maemo and the n900 didn't get a swarm of people buying simply because you could install xchat | 11:14 |
| raster | but its a chicken and egg problem | 11:14 |
| RST38h | As long as it is full Linux, it being samsung-proprietary does not matter | 11:14 |
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| raster | general public like ooh nad ahh and sexy | 11:14 |
| raster | but that only lasts so long if u dont have content | 11:14 |
| RST38h | Same as Maemo being Nokia-proprietary does not matter that much | 11:14 |
| kwtm | ieatlint: No, but I bet having Skype on the N900 did. Too bad it's proprietary. Stupid Skype. | 11:14 |
| raster | RST38h: indeed | 11:14 |
| Mece_ | ieatlint, no, but it did get a whole bunch of exited nerds to buy it. Like me :) | 11:15 |
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| raster | as such i'd pretty much think meego and slp will be very close in terms of os infra | 11:15 |
| ieatlint | RST38h: no, i'm not saying the problem is samsung owns it | 11:15 |
| raster | porting between them should be a breeze | 11:15 |
| raster | i dont see qt being not allowed | 11:15 |
| ieatlint | the problem is if only samsung uses it, attracting developers without a userbase is hard | 11:15 |
| raster | its just that sammy wont bother doing the work :) | 11:15 |
| raster | ie u get whatever the apt repos have | 11:15 |
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| RST38h | ieatlint: If Samsung makes it sufficiently compatible with meegotouch and a few other platforms, it should be ok | 11:16 |
| rmrfchik | ieatlint: samsung can just buy apps from core developers. to port famouse games/apps | 11:16 |
| kwtm | That's great! I can install Sucky Kubuntu for Samgsungphone! "Now your phone can suck as much as your laptop!" | 11:16 |
| ieatlint | ah, yeah, if it ran qt and could pull meego apps onto it without them looking like ass (and i mean more the theme fitting), it could do alright | 11:16 |
| RST38h | that too, samsung has enough money to basically buy developers on case-by-case basis | 11:16 |
| raster | kwtm: hehehe | 11:16 |
| * RST38h does not understand why people are so excited by qt | 11:17 | |
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| ieatlint | but then you're emphisising meego, and devs will look to create cross-platform apps with meego -- ruining the purported features of avoiding qt/c++ and sticking with efl | 11:17 |
| raster | ieatlint: well not like u have a gazillion meego apps... :) | 11:17 |
| raster | so its all moot atm | 11:17 |
| ieatlint | also, has efl added a proper widget library? | 11:17 |
| raster | :) | 11:17 |
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| RST38h | Qt has been around for years now. There wasn't any commercially successful products with it, still none | 11:17 |
| ieatlint | yeah, i have similar doubts about meego's viability :) | 11:17 |
| ieatlint | brb | 11:17 |
| RST38h | Why not wait and see what Qt becomes with Nokia's support, then start cheering or booing | 11:17 |
| raster | i suspect qt will improve a lot | 11:18 |
| RST38h | So far, it is just getting bloated :) | 11:18 |
| raster | people will still have preferences tho | 11:18 |
| rmrfchik | RST38h: you mean "mobile apps" or "desktop apps"? | 11:18 |
| RST38h | rmrfchik: either | 11:18 |
| rmrfchik | RST38h: hm, I'm sure, troll couldn't exist without selling. | 11:19 |
| rmrfchik | http://qt.nokia.com/qt-in-use | 11:19 |
| zutesmog | Google Earth uses QT. | 11:19 |
| raster | it does indeed | 11:20 |
| raster | qt works | 11:20 |
| ieatlint | RST38h: at the very least i'm pleased with what i've seen of libmeegotouch so far | 11:20 |
| rmrfchik | i'm pretty sure, there is a lot of commercial QT appls | 11:20 |
| raster | its been used in many places | 11:20 |
| rmrfchik | *apps | 11:20 |
| Mece_ | RST38h, qt has made a lot of progress lately though. QML in particular is very interesting, and that's fairly new iiuc | 11:20 |
| RST38h | rmrfchk: Of course trolls were selling it (and a whole lot more of support, I suspect) | 11:20 |
| zutesmog | and for a long time the only viable toolkit for cross platform (windows, linux and mac os/x) | 11:20 |
| raster | qml stole a lot of ideas from efl | 11:20 |
| raster | good to see :) | 11:20 |
| RST38h | rmrfchik: But do you remember any actual retail products based on Qt? | 11:21 |
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| ieatlint | hah, QML reminded me of edje when i first saw it | 11:21 |
| rmrfchik | RST38h: why? | 11:21 |
| RST38h | Qtopia-running palmtops were one, but that is about it | 11:21 |
| raster | RST38h: motorola ezx phones | 11:21 |
| raster | rokr eg. | 11:21 |
| raster | and others | 11:21 |
| RST38h | raster: long forgotten :) | 11:21 |
| raster | ieatlint: glad to be of inspiration :) | 11:21 |
| rmrfchik | retail is one of branch of industry | 11:21 |
| raster | RST38h: sure. but it did come out retail :) | 11:21 |
| RST38h | Mece: UI scripting (QML) has been known since Motif | 11:21 |
| Mece_ | RST38h, in qt? | 11:22 |
| raster | RST38h: tcl/tk :) | 11:22 |
| RST38h | raster: Yes, but the keyword is "successful" ;) | 11:22 |
| ieatlint | edje was one thing i really liked about efl... fast, and you could replace a programs UI as long as you kept the object names the same | 11:22 |
| rmrfchik | my company does a lot of software and only 3 retail box | 11:22 |
| ieatlint | was awesome for building a ui | 11:22 |
| RST38h | raster: Let us not remember THAT (tcl/tk) | 11:22 |
| rmrfchik | lol, and one retail app is written in scheme ;) | 11:22 |
| RST38h | rmrfchik: REDUCE? =) | 11:24 |
| rmrfchik | PLT FTW! | 11:24 |
| * rmrfchik is addicted to chicken though | 11:25 | |
| ieatlint | chicken is awesome, and an extremely versatile meat | 11:25 |
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| Mece_ | use of suffix trees to detect dna contaminations ftw! | 11:26 |
| rmrfchik | amagad | 11:27 |
| raster | mmm | 11:28 |
| raster | greasy chicken | 11:28 |
| raster | the koreans love their hicken & hof | 11:28 |
| raster | err | 11:28 |
| raster | chicken & hof | 11:28 |
| rmrfchik | callcc.org is your friend | 11:28 |
| rmrfchik | be aware, scheme can change your life | 11:28 |
| Mece_ | i suddenly have a craving for a footlong italian bmt from subway. | 11:29 |
| * RST38h does not know what hof is, but most possibilities that come to mind look unhealthy | 11:29 | |
| raster | german "hof" | 11:29 |
| RST38h | canines and insects mostly | 11:29 |
| raster | courtyard | 11:29 |
| ieatlint | raster: you living in korea now? | 11:29 |
| raster | basically they mean "beer hall" but that basically serves up lots of fried chicken | 11:29 |
| raster | theres a good one in seoul city center | 11:30 |
| rmrfchik | RST38h: if you change koreans to chinese, even chicken becmae unhealthy | 11:30 |
| RST38h | rmrfchik: not sure I would like scheme to change my life | 11:30 |
| rmrfchik | *became | 11:30 |
| raster | $us12-13 get you all you can drink beer all night | 11:30 |
| raster | ieatlint: yup. | 11:30 |
| ieatlint | good beer though? | 11:30 |
| RST38h | raster: ah | 11:30 |
| Mece_ | oo.. new version of witter out. | 11:31 |
| raster | ieatlint: ok beer. | 11:31 |
| raster | i didnt move here fro the beer | 11:31 |
| rmrfchik | RST38h: you can't influence on it. you just be enligghted | 11:31 |
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| raster | i moved here to realise my dream oif an awesome linux phone u can really develop cool stuff for | 11:31 |
| raster | :) | 11:31 |
| ieatlint | haha... well, i'll be very curious to see what comes out | 11:31 |
| rmrfchik | linux is not the aim. | 11:32 |
| rmrfchik | usability, openness ARE the aim | 11:32 |
| raster | its a prerequisite :) | 11:32 |
| rmrfchik | lol, why? | 11:32 |
| raster | my own sanity | 11:32 |
| rmrfchik | linux kernel is already bloated, huge and is controlled by evil | 11:32 |
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| ieatlint | as far as i can tell though, asians only seem to be able to make light beers... and that has to be discouraging | 11:32 |
| raster | by linux i mean muchmore than kernel | 11:32 |
| alterego | I agree, you don't have the flexibility we have on any other mobile OS out there. | 11:33 |
| raster | the same linux 99% of the world referrs to | 11:33 |
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| alterego | Yeah, Android doesn't exactly cut it .. | 11:33 |
| raster | linux+gnu+x11 etc. | 11:33 |
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| rmrfchik | let's look for hacker kernel! what we have here, hurd, darwin, plan9! | 11:33 |
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| raster | and of coruse... e :) | 11:33 |
| alterego | Heh, a plan 9 mobile :D | 11:33 |
| ieatlint | how about freebsd? :P | 11:33 |
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| rmrfchik | ieatlint: more of same | 11:33 |
| alterego | netbsd would probably be more likely imo | 11:34 |
| alterego | With BSD licensing though we'd be screwed by vendors | 11:34 |
| alterego | Like Apple have done .. | 11:34 |
| raster | likely | 11:34 |
| RST38h | rmrfchik: I think you should rewrite Linux kernel in Scheme | 11:34 |
| raster | gpl forced them to become partly open at least | 11:34 |
| RST38h | alterego: Apple has done quite nicely though | 11:34 |
| rmrfchik | linux/*bsd are all the same in general | 11:34 |
| alterego | Nokia could have easily done that, but they didn't. | 11:34 |
| raster | and now they are beginnig to see value in it | 11:34 |
| raster | after being forced | 11:34 |
| rmrfchik | RST38h: this should be new brave OS | 11:35 |
| alterego | RST38h: meh :P | 11:35 |
| * RST38h does not think Nokia has made its OS choice based on the GPL/BSD split | 11:35 | |
| RST38h | Most likely the people making the choice never heard of BSD. :) | 11:35 |
| alterego | Indeed, they originally started maemo as a test to see what theycould do with Linux and FOSS | 11:35 |
| * rmrfchik is looking for OS without files/proframs and other obsolete things | 11:35 | |
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| rmrfchik | it's shame for notes applciation to ask to open file and ask to save file. | 11:36 |
| alterego | windows 20? | 11:36 |
| alterego | I'm sure they'll get their new FS finished eventually ^.^ | 11:36 |
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| rmrfchik | i don't think this is achiveable with current OS/toolkits | 11:37 |
| alterego | Whast's your problem with files? | 11:38 |
| alterego | I think maybe more meangfull meta data properly associated with files is a good idea. | 11:38 |
| alterego | I don't see wat else you'd have instead of them. | 11:38 |
| alterego | Unless you do an Apple and just rename files to something else like "glossy-wank0juice" and say you invented something new. | 11:39 |
| rmrfchik | I don't like to open files. PalmOS showed me there is no such thing as files. And back in 199x, VisualAGE did this for programming | 11:39 |
| * rmrfchik afk | 11:40 | |
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| mece | asdf | 11:40 |
| raster | rmrfchik: as such if your notes app dumbly stored notes in ~/notes | 11:40 |
| alterego | still files, just hidden. | 11:41 |
| raster | and simpyly lists all "n otes" in that dir on start | 11:41 |
| raster | and auto-saves as u type | 11:41 |
| raster | there is no need | 11:41 |
| alterego | Do files cease to exist if you don't have a file manager? :P | 11:41 |
| raster | hahaha | 11:41 |
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| Khertan1 | Morning again | 11:41 |
| mece | Khertan1, hi | 11:41 |
| alterego | If a file is created in the woods and there's no file manager to see it? Did it actually happen? :P | 11:41 |
| raster | alterego: df says "yes". | 11:42 |
| alterego | :D | 11:42 |
| mece | lol | 11:42 |
| alterego | Well, df does't report filenames du on the other hand :) | 11:42 |
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| dneary | morning | 11:42 |
| mece | alterego, I was pondering upon something with qml, wanna share some insights? | 11:43 |
| alterego | Hey dneary | 11:43 |
| alterego | mece: sure, go ahead. | 11:43 |
| raster | alterego: df will report tyhat more space was used up tho | 11:43 |
| raster | :) | 11:43 |
| Khertan1 | mece: the version of KhtEditor in the git repository have now a QML Syntax hilight | 11:43 |
| mece | Khertan1, wow. That was fast! | 11:43 |
| alterego | Khertan1: sweet! :) | 11:43 |
| Khertan1 | mece: i ven't tested it, so not sure it s work as it s should | 11:43 |
| mece | Khertan1, ok, I'll test it. | 11:44 |
| alterego | Khertan1: pyside/pyqt or Qt/C++? | 11:44 |
| Khertan1 | pyqt4 | 11:44 |
| mece | Khertan1, where's the repo again? | 11:44 |
| Khertan1 | http://gitorious.org/khteditor | 11:44 |
| Khertan1 | be careful with replace and find ... it s a bit bugged but i didn't understand yet why | 11:45 |
| alterego | Khertan1: what you using for your syntax highlighting engine? | 11:45 |
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| * mece is cloning | 11:46 | |
| Khertan1 | alterego: a home made class derivated from qsyntaxhilighter for python, a home made qsyntaxhilighter for some other language which read rules from xml, and pygments for those which haven't any xml definition yet :) | 11:46 |
| mece | Khertan1, can I properly install this with the setup.py script? | 11:46 |
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| Khertan1 | mece: it should works (except for depandancies) | 11:47 |
| mece | Khertan1, ok let's see :) | 11:47 |
| alterego | Khertan1: cool, is that the same engine Qt Creator uses? | 11:47 |
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| Khertan1 | alterego: not really, qtcreator use a higher engine which is derivated from qsyntaxhighlighter | 11:48 |
| alterego | Hrm, cool, I'd quite like Qt Creator to properly handle other file formats .. Like XML for instance :D | 11:48 |
| mece | Khertan1, seems to be missing plugins_api | 11:48 |
| Khertan1 | but if you use pygtkeditor, i can suggest you to give a try to khteditor, even if not yet finished, it s faster | 11:48 |
| Khertan1 | mece: hum ... | 11:48 |
| mece | alterego, khteditor is a million times faster and smoother though.. | 11:48 |
| alterego | Yeah, I found pgtkeditor too sluggish, so I just stick with vi ^.^ | 11:49 |
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| mece | alterego, I recommend trying khteditor. It's very nice imo. | 11:49 |
| Khertan1 | just be careful with find and replace :) | 11:49 |
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| Khertan1 | and if you want to participe to the dev you are welcome :) | 11:50 |
| alterego | Heh, will do | 11:50 |
| alterego | I'm stuck in Nokia SDK ast the moment though. | 11:50 |
| RST38h | PICO is still better than Qt Creator =) | 11:50 |
| alterego | Once I've finished my backlog. | 11:50 |
| * RST38h hides | 11:50 | |
| Khertan1 | mece: i just add the missing plugin_api to the git repo | 11:50 |
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| * mece is pulling | 11:51 | |
| Khertan1 | currently there is a pylint plugin which display result in a second window and when you double click on the error it show you the line in your code :) | 11:51 |
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| mece | why the hell doesn't my bash3 store my commands?? | 11:52 |
| mece | grr | 11:52 |
| Khertan1 | i'm looking for help for fixing khweeteur dbus notifications | 11:52 |
| zokier | mece, check the permissions of ~/.bash_history | 11:52 |
| RST38h | mece: don't close the window, type exit | 11:52 |
| mece | RST38h, yeah, but if I close the window, ALL commands are gone :/ | 11:53 |
| mece | zokier, hmm ok checking | 11:54 |
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| mece | Khertan1, plugins_api-py was in the wrong directory. moved it to root and everything worked fine. | 11:54 |
| RST38h | mece: Oh you mean it does not even store your current commands? | 11:55 |
| Khertan1 | mece: to root ? | 11:55 |
| mece | Khertan1, root of repo. where the setup.py file is | 11:55 |
| Khertan1 | hum ... should not be the case | 11:56 |
| * Khertan1 is checking | 11:56 | |
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| mece | Khertan1, ok. well it didn't find it. plugin_api is not a plugin, hence it shouldn't be in the plugins directory afaict. | 11:56 |
| Khertan1 | mece: but for derivate reason, it s in it :) | 11:57 |
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| Khertan1 | as else i cannot use the __subclasses__ | 11:57 |
| mece | Khertan1, ok well it didn't work when it was there and it worked when I moved it to /... | 11:57 |
| Khertan1 | mece: strange ... | 11:57 |
| mece | Khertan1, aye | 11:57 |
| Khertan1 | ok i understood ... i have a pyo in my folder | 11:58 |
| mece | Khertan1, ok so where should it be? | 11:59 |
| Khertan1 | i think i need to fix some code :) | 11:59 |
| mece | RST38h, bash3 stores .bash_history eventhough you close the window :) My .bash_history was owned by root, that was the problem. | 11:59 |
| mece | Khertan1, ok gonna test the qml stuff now anyway. | 12:00 |
| RST38h | ah, that explains things =) | 12:00 |
| mece | Khertan1, it highlights some stuff.. | 12:01 |
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| Khertan1 | mece: did i forgot some rules ? | 12:02 |
| mece | Khertan1, I don't know how much it is suppose to highlight. It highlights the objects but not properties. | 12:02 |
| mece | Khertan1, For example "Rectangle" is highlighted but not "width" | 12:03 |
| mece | Khertan1, but it launches :D:D:D | 12:03 |
| * mece cheers | 12:03 | |
| Khertan1 | :) | 12:04 |
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| mece | I tihnk I have to tweet that :) | 12:04 |
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| mece | Khertan1, do you mind if i link to the repo on twitter? | 12:05 |
| Khertan1 | you can :) | 12:05 |
| * merlin1991 wonders which maemo tweeters one should follow | 12:06 | |
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| fgs_ | merlin1991: I like sjgadsby's list, http://twitter.com/#/list/sjgadsby/maemo-org | 12:08 |
| Khertan1 | arg the pylint plugin is broken | 12:08 |
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| Khertan1 | noone have dbus skills ? | 12:27 |
| Khertan1 | i'm trying to understand why my dbus-callback-default isn't called as it should in khweeteur | 12:27 |
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| alterego | Your app names are funny :P | 12:28 |
| Khertan1 | http://gitorious.org/khweeteur/khweeteur/blobs/master/khweeteur/__init__.py << source here | 12:28 |
| Khertan1 | :) | 12:28 |
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| ZogG | Khertan1 it takes lot of time to donload timeline and does it do it everytime from the begining, i mean no history or somethign? | 12:35 |
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| Khertan1 | ZogG: depends on version there was a bug in 0.0.32, 0.0.33, 0.0.34 | 12:41 |
| Khertan1 | in 0.0.35 it didn't take too much time | 12:41 |
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| ZogG | i don't know wich one i had | 12:41 |
| Khertan1 | old tweets are cached | 12:42 |
| ZogG | as well i reported false bug =) | 12:42 |
| Khertan1 | ZogG: about menu | 12:42 |
| Khertan1 | :) | 12:42 |
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| Khertan1 | and it try to got from twitter api only the last tweet | 12:42 |
| ZogG | Khertan1, i didn't used it for several days and it was updated yesterday so can't tell you in what version =)) | 12:42 |
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| Khertan1 | it could be faster if twitter api has been though before they code it | 12:42 |
| Khertan1 | but this isn't the case | 12:43 |
| ZogG | Khertan1 can you make mentions section? | 12:43 |
| Khertan1 | and for some feature it require many calls | 12:43 |
| Khertan1 | ZogG: section ? | 12:43 |
| ZogG | i mean like in web - when i see only my mentions | 12:43 |
| ZogG | where i have @ZogG i.e. | 12:43 |
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| Khertan1 | actually mention are unified in the same view | 12:44 |
| ZogG | that what i meant | 12:44 |
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| ZogG | i want to see all replies and my mentions separetly =) | 12:44 |
| Khertan1 | yep ... currently doing separations in the different mention, replies, dm isn't in the roadmap | 12:45 |
| Khertan1 | the purpose as the start was to have a unified view contrary to other twitter client that split it in many windows | 12:45 |
| Khertan1 | something that i didn't like | 12:45 |
| Khertan1 | i think i ll implement a feature to split them ... | 12:45 |
| Khertan1 | but not for the moment | 12:46 |
| Khertan1 | i ve somethings to fix before like the notifications | 12:46 |
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| ZogG | Khertan1 i think some programs should use swipe screen thing | 12:46 |
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| ZogG | as n900 has feature to swipe from outta screen (left or right) | 12:47 |
| ZogG | like in microb when you swipe to get mouse | 12:47 |
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| Khertan1 | ZogG: but none framework permit to have access to it | 12:47 |
| Khertan1 | ZogG: the only way i see to do a such feature is to play with xlib | 12:48 |
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| ZogG | Khertan1 hmm the numthy physics has it | 12:49 |
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| Lantizia | Hey will dalvik run on anything but android yet? | 12:55 |
| Lantizia | I'm thinking maemo/mer/meego/moblin etc | 12:55 |
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| alterego | Last 24 what can happen in ten minutes?!?"" | 12:58 |
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| alterego | nyargh! | 13:00 |
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| ZogG | alterego, hey, there are kids here | 13:03 |
| * ZogG hides MohammadAG51 | 13:03 | |
| dsg | Any ideas what could be wrong if the GUI apps can't save files even though the fs is fine? | 13:04 |
| dsg | "Memory not accessible. Unable to save content." error from camera app, "Memory card not found." from backup | 13:04 |
| ZogG | dsg try to reboot | 13:04 |
| ZogG | had the same thing | 13:04 |
| dsg | (this is after changing my partitioning layout, but /home and /home/user/MyDocs are mounted | 13:04 |
| dsg | ZogG: yep, twice | 13:04 |
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| ZogG | check if it's not full and wherwe does it save | 13:04 |
| ZogG | dsg is it mmc? | 13:04 |
| dsg | /dev/mapper/homeunlocked 1.9G 188.3M 1.7G 10% /home | 13:05 |
| dsg | /dev/mapper/mydocsunlocked 9.4G 352.7M 9.0G 4% /home/user/MyDocs | 13:05 |
| dsg | It's encrypted partitions on the MMC | 13:05 |
| ZogG | permissions? | 13:05 |
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| dsg | ZogG: Yeah, all correct (I tried setting them to 777 even) | 13:08 |
| dsg | This is a copy of the default homedir with 'rsync -avx' | 13:10 |
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| ZogG | dsg why would you copy | 13:14 |
| ZogG | try to make new home dir | 13:14 |
| gvoice | hello, i would like to ask how can i use gvoice on n900 internet tablet ? | 13:14 |
| ZogG | and than copy all contect | 13:14 |
| ZogG | and than remap mount | 13:14 |
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| dsg | ZogG: To encrypt the home folder. | 13:16 |
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| ZogG | gvoice little bit, don't use pm if you can ask here | 13:16 |
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| dsg | (it's all working, but I guess there's some app that starts before this is mounted, or ke-recv probes somehow) | 13:17 |
| ZogG | dsg how do you mount it? | 13:17 |
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| flux | dsg, check file permissions | 13:18 |
| flux | dsg, I heard there are similar issues when going from fat to ext3 | 13:18 |
| gvoice | can you please help me how can i call using gvoice from n900 | 13:19 |
| mece | what do i need to install to play an ogv file? what's the library called? | 13:19 |
| ZogG | gvoice, never tried it, have you read thru tmo topic? | 13:19 |
| gvoice | yeah | 13:19 |
| ZogG | mece ogv? what's that? | 13:19 |
| mece | (don't want to start appmanager | 13:19 |
| gvoice | i tried searching at maemo.org | 13:19 |
| mece | ZogG: a vorbis video I believe. | 13:20 |
| ZogG | mece, have you tried extrenal codecs package? | 13:20 |
| alterego | vlc? | 13:20 |
| ZogG | gvoice it's google voice right? | 13:20 |
| gvoice | yeah | 13:21 |
| ZogG | mece try to run it in console in mplayer or vlc, i bet it would say what codec is missing | 13:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | dsg: I'd not be surprised camera to get a hickup with non-VFAT still | 13:21 |
| ZogG | gvoice i think i saw several posts on tmo | 13:21 |
| mece | hmm don't feel like installing them right now. | 13:21 |
| visz | gvoice, to a landline / mobile? | 13:21 |
| ZogG | dsg maybe you should search for bug in bugzilla and if there is no-one - report it? | 13:22 |
| visz | oh, right, that's what gvoice is | 13:22 |
| ZogG | mece i have player and package for extra codecs so mkv and flac and other stuff works for me | 13:22 |
| visz | gtalk calls work out of box for me | 13:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | dsg: also camera-ui is preloaded in init aiui. If your fs isn't unlocked then, you at very least might to have to 'killall camera-ui" | 13:23 |
| cheriff | hi, it seems if the boot process falls for whatever reason, it just reboots. Is there some switch to see boot messages, avoid the reboot, or log somewhere? I see the 'knightrider' dots and then reboot ... | 13:23 |
| gvoice | visz mobile | 13:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | cheriff: too bad, search for 'bootloop' in chanlogs and wiki/tmo | 13:24 |
| cheriff | DocScrutinizer: thanks for the keyword tip! | 13:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | cheriff: basically your options are R&D or reflash, or a rescue system if you installed any and can get to bootmenu | 13:26 |
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| mece | ogv is ogg theora, I guess libtheora0 is what I need? | 13:28 |
| mece | oh I already have that. damn | 13:28 |
| mece | ogg-support meta package perhaps? | 13:29 |
| mece | ah yes. gstreamer plugin was missing. | 13:29 |
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| dsg | hmm, it seems trackerd is also just indexing /. In media player I have all the little ping and pong sounds and the startup "hands" video, but nothing else | 13:34 |
| dsg | Maybe my gconf is fubar. | 13:34 |
| SpeedEvil | That can also be a symptom of emmc-failure | 13:35 |
| dsg | SpeedEvil: emmc isn't used here (I've remounted home and MyDocs) | 13:35 |
| cheriff | DocScrutinizer: ah, i wasnt woried about the brick of the loop, i just trying to find whats actually happening | 13:36 |
| SpeedEvil | What do you mean? | 13:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | lo SpeedEvil | 13:37 |
| SpeedEvil | lo | 13:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: dsg has a crypted fs | 13:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | I strongly doubt mp4 vids will happily safe to it anyway | 13:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | just for missing CPU grunt | 13:39 |
| gvoice | is anyone using google voice on n900 ? i need some help ;/ | 13:39 |
| SpeedEvil | Not here. | 13:39 |
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| gvoice | oh, i i wanted to ask, is it possible to transfer sms history to pc ? | 13:40 |
| * rmrfchik is avoiding to do messaging on N900. it so f.cking slow | 13:40 | |
| mece | hmm ogg-support seems to have fucked up some stuff. I think i need to restart tracker | 13:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | sorry, my email and voicecals don't need any indexind by google | 13:40 |
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| gvoice | i have been chatting with some people since like 6 months ago and i would like to save this messaging history to my computer, is it possible ? | 13:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | just out of curiosity: is Andridiot using 4.4.4.4/8.8.8.8 by default now? | 13:43 |
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| mece | hmm.. can one get the id of a window on the n900? | 13:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mece: lrn2ask | 13:51 |
| mece | DocScrutinizer, :) never mind, it was not the problem. | 13:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | mece: for your convenience: http://www.made-in-china.com/Construction-Decoration-Catalog/Plastic-Window.html can be called in microb as well | 13:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | lots of IDs | 13:54 |
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| merlin1991 | L M A O | 13:56 |
| wazd | hrw: hello again :) | 13:56 |
| wazd | hrw: I just wanted to ask if I can translate your great article bout Qt UI design for russian students :) | 13:57 |
| ZogG | wazd, why not? | 13:58 |
| * RST38h moos at wazd evilly | 13:58 | |
| ZogG | if you refer to original and author | 13:58 |
| ZogG | wazd, are you teacher | 13:58 |
| wazd | RST38h: o/ :) | 13:58 |
| wazd | ZogG: not quite :) | 13:59 |
| wazd | ZogG: anyway, I prefer to ask first :) | 13:59 |
| ZogG | wazd so? | 13:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, PC | 13:59 |
| ZogG | wazd, you are .....? communist? =) | 13:59 |
| RST38h | wazd: any news on that applet project? | 13:59 |
| RST38h | ZogG: With a nick like that, I would not ask =) | 14:00 |
| ZogG | RST38h, it's only known in russia, for others it's hero from astroboy | 14:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | ??? | 14:00 |
| ZogG | RST38h, you would laught but i'm from israel | 14:01 |
| wazd | RST38h: not quite, we're trying to figure out how to get that awesome irish visa :) | 14:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | damn commies | 14:01 |
| hrw | wazd: sure, you can. | 14:01 |
| hrw | wazd: leave author information and link to blog post. | 14:01 |
| wazd | hrw: sure :) | 14:01 |
| hrw | wazd: and I will like to get a copy and link so will add on my page | 14:01 |
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| RST38h | ZogG: Exactly! | 14:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ~translate ru, en ZogG | 14:04 |
| RST38h | ZogG: And of course it is known, do you think Russians invented it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government | 14:05 |
| RST38h | ZogG: Rates somewhere between Little Green Men and Cthulhu in Internet popularity | 14:05 |
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| ZogG | RST38h, DocScrutinizer is german and didn't know | 14:06 |
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| ZogG | in their country they think there are no more left of people like me =))) | 14:06 |
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| rmrfchik | wazzup | 14:06 |
| RST38h | ZogG: I actually wonder if Robert Harris' "Fatherland" is allowed in Germany | 14:07 |
| RST38h | ZogG: 'cause despite being clearly antinazi, it probably violates every second letter of the German law about the subject | 14:07 |
| ZogG | didn't read or know bout it | 14:08 |
| * DocScrutinizer tells TAsn to meet MohammadAG51 to rush over ZogG together | 14:08 | |
| ZogG | MohammadAG51 likes me =)) | 14:08 |
| ZogG | i hope | 14:08 |
| ZogG | RST38h i don't like any fanatic point of view | 14:09 |
| ZogG | there are no right in there | 14:09 |
| ZogG | beyond them i mean | 14:09 |
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| jacktheripper | is it dangerous to install from the fremantle sdk repo on the actual tablet ? | 14:09 |
| SpeedEvil | Usually not. | 14:09 |
| jacktheripper | I need zlib1g-dev | 14:10 |
| SpeedEvil | but nothing there is optified | 14:10 |
| jacktheripper | it's removed from extras-devel | 14:10 |
| jacktheripper | oh | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | ZogG: don't joke about my suffering from this shitty country I live in | 14:10 |
| jacktheripper | but zlib1g-dev wouldn't have to be optified right ? | 14:10 |
| SpeedEvil | For one library, it's not a risk as I understand it. | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | ZogG: otoh your government seems even worse | 14:11 |
| ZogG | i hate any goverment | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~government | 14:11 |
| infobot | hmm... government is broken. It doesn't work. It doesn't keep our streets safe and it doesn't educate our children. Government is good at only one thing: It breaks your legs, hands you a pair of crutches, and says, 'See, without us you wouldn't be able to walk.'. Libertarians need to STFU | 14:11 |
| ZogG | my goverment are old pricks that wouldn't care bout nothing but money | 14:11 |
| ZogG | they are in there from the begging of israel | 14:12 |
| rmrfchik | ZogG: wow, are you also from russia? o_O | 14:12 |
| ZogG | rmrfchik i don't live there for past 10 years | 14:12 |
| rmrfchik | it was joke/ | 14:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | though this statement isn't exactly what I think a government _should_ do, I'm d'accord with the notion what it actually does do to you | 14:13 |
| rmrfchik | s/israel/russia. nothing will change in your statement | 14:13 |
| RST38h | Doc: Hey, you said Germany was cool? | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | RST38h: eeh? | 14:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | ME?? | 14:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | I even hate the concept of nations | 14:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer | so much I honestly considered trying to get a UN passport | 14:15 |
| * lolloo thought he was in a politcal channel. | 14:15 | |
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| RST38h | Doc: You do understand that UN is a cover organization for the aliens? =) | 14:16 |
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| RST38h | Doc: Who are, of course, conspire with ZogG to rule the world, etc | 14:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | cool, home at last :-P | 14:17 |
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| ZogG | RST38h, wazd i have some arguments about maemo vs iOS on russian chan - wana join? =) | 14:18 |
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| RST38h | ZogG channel name? | 14:19 |
| wazd | ZogG: oh my :) | 14:19 |
| RST38h | I hope it is not #apple_ru ort something? | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | meh yuck | 14:19 |
| rmrfchik | RST38h: who knows, who knows | 14:20 |
| RST38h | OMG | 14:20 |
| RST38h | ZogG: You know what, I am already banned there! Never visited this cesspit, but I guess they are always vigilant | 14:21 |
| RST38h | ZogG: No, that is not how average NNM poster looks | 14:25 |
| ZogG | say waht? | 14:25 |
| ZogG | it's not really nnm | 14:25 |
| ZogG | not anymore | 14:25 |
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| RST38h | ZogG: Have to check lurkmore for news then :) | 14:26 |
| ZogG | i don't visit these kind of sites | 14:26 |
| ZogG | habr welinux and lor | 14:27 |
| ZogG | just for reading | 14:27 |
| RST38h | ZogG: anyways, I do not think it is worth arguing with the jobs-bitten | 14:28 |
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| RST38h | ZogG: if you want fun, try the baptists, the apple nuts are too boring | 14:29 |
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| ZogG | RST38h one of them is applefag and other normal guy but he is thinking maemo and meego rip =) | 14:30 |
| ZogG | RST38h i like that kind of arguing =) | 14:31 |
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| RST38h | ZogG: Only if you convince them to commit suicide at the end and we get the video | 14:35 |
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| RST38h | ZogG: Otherwise, it is pointless. | 14:35 |
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| pigeon | is there a reason not to use gcc/g++ 4.4 in the maemo/scratchbox? default install seems to be 4.2 | 14:36 |
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| RST38h | pigeon: probably causes random warnings/errors with the base packages | 14:37 |
| RST38h | pigeon: alternatively, when the current scratchbox has been created, 4.4 may not have been mature enough | 14:38 |
| jacktheripper | I'm trying to compile an application. Compiling returns errors with weird characters such as "src/main.cpp:177: error: â?~BACKSCREENâ?T was not declared in this scope". I got the source off maemo.org. What could be wrong ? | 14:38 |
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| jacktheripper | seems like a matter of encoding | 14:39 |
| RST38h | jacktheripper: probably unicode quote marks | 14:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | (<RST38h> ZogG: if you want fun) anti-vegan | 14:40 |
| RST38h | Doc: Actually, yes | 14:40 |
| jacktheripper | RST38h, and g++ doesn't read unicode ? | 14:40 |
| RST38h | Doc: Or any animal lovers in general. Dog ladies, cat ladies, etc | 14:40 |
| crashanddie | jacktheripper: there's unicode, and then there's unicode | 14:41 |
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| ZogG | jacktheripper are you sure it's unicode there? | 14:41 |
| RST38h | jacktheripper: I have no idea what caused the error message itself | 14:41 |
| RST38h | jacktheripper: so, cannot answer your question | 14:41 |
| jacktheripper | not sure yet. | 14:41 |
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| crashanddie | jacktheripper: how about you just post the code in question on a pastebin so we can have a look? | 14:42 |
| jacktheripper | it's ANSI. And those characters in the error messages don't exist when I view it. | 14:42 |
| crashanddie | jacktheripper: a lot of people in this channel are good, but still | 14:43 |
| jacktheripper | ok sure wait a sec | 14:43 |
| crashanddie | what do you view it with/ | 14:43 |
| crashanddie | ? | 14:43 |
| jacktheripper | it's available on maemo.org. But I'll post it here | 14:43 |
| jacktheripper | notepad2 on windows. | 14:43 |
| crashanddie | then post a link? | 14:43 |
| jacktheripper | yes I'll post a link here, sec | 14:43 |
| crashanddie | and AFAIK, notepad2 supports unicode garbage. | 14:44 |
| jacktheripper | it does | 14:44 |
| lcuk | jacktheripper, dos2unix those files | 14:44 |
| ZogG | crashanddie \о/ | 14:45 |
| lcuk | from linux | 14:45 |
| jacktheripper | it's not there for maemo ? | 14:45 |
| crashanddie | ZogG: I didn't say I understood unicode | 14:45 |
| lcuk | and paste the link where you got them from | 14:45 |
| crashanddie | lcuk: why, exactly? | 14:45 |
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| ZogG | crashanddie i mean hi | 14:45 |
| lcuk | cos windows infects them often enough i just disinfect mine on a regular basis :P | 14:46 |
| crashanddie | lcuk: d2u would only make sense if he edited the files on windows with an editor that it nix-agnostic | 14:46 |
| lcuk | if he copied/pasted from browser | 14:46 |
| lcuk | on windows | 14:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | moo lcuk | 14:46 |
| lcuk | he will have the crlf | 14:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | lo crashanddie | 14:46 |
| crashanddie | still has nothing to do with the error message presented | 14:46 |
| lcuk | cos thats how it rolls | 14:46 |
| jacktheripper | it actually might be a line ending problem with notepad2 | 14:47 |
| lcuk | well thats what i want to see the wiki itself for | 14:47 |
| jacktheripper | yeah line endings are set to windows :S | 14:47 |
| ZogG | don't you have better editor in win? | 14:47 |
| jacktheripper | that's the best editor imo. It provides an option. Nothing wrong with it | 14:48 |
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| ZogG | or we can copy and save it in file and upload to you | 14:48 |
| jacktheripper | Noma, not a line ending prob. I'll post the link | 14:48 |
| jacktheripper | http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/p/psx4all/psx4all_0.3.9.tar.gz | 14:48 |
| jacktheripper | uhh not Noma | 14:48 |
| jacktheripper | nick completion :S | 14:48 |
| jacktheripper | *no | 14:48 |
| RST38h | Doc: Btw, there are targets better than vegans | 14:49 |
| lolloo | jacktheripper, what is that app? | 14:49 |
| jacktheripper | a psx emulator | 14:49 |
| RST38h | Doc: *Twitter users* | 14:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | lol | 14:49 |
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| RST38h | Doc: Can be harassed by saying, informatively, "Just took a shit." | 14:50 |
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| jacktheripper | that was the source. On compiling. It gives these errors http://pastebin.com/VFQafPwc | 14:50 |
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| ZogG | RST38h i'm twitter user =0 | 14:52 |
| jacktheripper | guys, nevermind, sorry for the trouble. I'll just compile it on scratchbox, it was meant to be anyway. | 14:52 |
| lcuk | jacktheripper, those arent unicode errors | 14:52 |
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| lcuk | thats your compiler trying to colorise the output | 14:52 |
| jacktheripper | and the windows terminal doesn't support it, sweet. | 14:53 |
| lcuk | and because you miss minimal.h | 14:53 |
| jacktheripper | I'm sshing from windows, that's why it happens | 14:53 |
| lcuk | its making loads of stuff fail | 14:53 |
| RST38h | ZogG: And I just took a shit! | 14:53 |
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| jacktheripper | thanks | 14:53 |
| ZogG | RST38h, meh, not that kinda user =) | 14:54 |
| RST38h | ZogG: You should ask wazd about him and a tent-ful of twitter users =) | 14:54 |
| ZogG | i just post when i'm on bus and mostly reply | 14:54 |
| ZogG | RST38h, https://twitter.com/Shlegel/status/24920948543 | 14:55 |
| lcuk | jacktheripper, you lack installing the build-depends | 14:55 |
| ZogG | not me =) | 14:55 |
| lcuk | on the scratchbox, make sure the same source repository is available that you got the source from | 14:56 |
| lcuk | "and use apt-get builddep [package]" or similar to install all the build dependencies needed | 14:56 |
| lcuk | like the gp2x libraries etc | 14:56 |
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| pigeon | RST38h: so i should stick with 4.2? what about 4.3? | 14:58 |
| lcuk | RST38h, are you still in US? | 14:58 |
| RST38h | pigeon: you should check the list of available gcc toolchains | 14:58 |
| RST38h | pigeon: and use the latest one, unless you start having problems, then use the older one | 14:59 |
| RST38h | pigeon: AFAIK, sb2 offers gcc 4.4.3 or something as the latest toolchain | 14:59 |
| RST38h | Dunno about sb1 | 14:59 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Nope, back to .ru | 14:59 |
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| pigeon | RST38h: yeah, i can see 4.3.5 and 4.4.4 available | 15:00 |
| RST38h | Use the latest one, it is supposed to generate better ARM code | 15:00 |
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| jacktheripper | lcuk: thank you, I'm rebooting | 15:00 |
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| RST38h | moo lardman | 15:17 |
| lardman | hey RST38h | 15:17 |
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| lcuk | \o | 15:18 |
| lardman | hi lcuk | 15:18 |
| lcuk | hey lardman how goes your monday? | 15:19 |
| lardman | work PC PSU knackered, so walked back home | 15:19 |
| lardman | but not too bad, got a load of conferences out of the way, so can do some work now, which is nice :) | 15:19 |
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| lcuk | yeah | 15:22 |
| lcuk | simon i still wonder how to handle that barcode picture from barcelona | 15:22 |
| lardman | which one was that? | 15:23 |
| lardman | (as I never made it over there :( | 15:23 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liq.barcode.advert.barcelona.for.lardman.20091204_002.jpg | 15:24 |
| lardman | pluggable camera app is the way forward, give the option of a button toopen a Google Goggles type app | 15:24 |
| lcuk | it was on the billboard near the hotel | 15:24 |
| lardman | :) | 15:24 |
| lcuk | its like identifying the individual flowers hen you have a bunch | 15:24 |
| lardman | that will work - zbar will return multiple barcodes (all the same in this instance) | 15:24 |
| mgedmin | so, is there a home widget for going online/offline with a single tap? | 15:25 |
| lardman | afaiu anyway | 15:25 |
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| ZogG | i wonder, if i can port maemo to x86? | 15:25 |
| lardman | mgedmin: I also feel the pain of trying to disconnect and needing to wait for the pop up to be filled with new connections | 15:25 |
| lardman | ZogG: yes | 15:25 |
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| mgedmin | lardman, so that's a no then? | 15:26 |
| lcuk | i havent heard of one yet | 15:26 |
| lardman | mgedmin: I've not seen anything | 15:26 |
| lcuk | but it will emerge sometime | 15:26 |
| ZogG | mgedmin i think there is for power button | 15:26 |
| ZogG | just today | 15:26 |
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| ZogG | mgedmin, talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60473 | 15:28 |
| ZogG | this one is good enuf? | 15:28 |
| smhar | anyone using DreamRemote with DB7000 model? | 15:29 |
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| mgedmin | ZogG, I'd prefer a home widget ... | 15:30 |
| ZogG | talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=47623&highlight=widget+offline | 15:30 |
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| ZogG | maybe this one can do the trick | 15:31 |
| lardman | are there any new and decent calendar apps out? | 15:31 |
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| * mgedmin is trying --- oh the app manager sucks, I can't see the name of the thing I just installed while it's busy burning my CPU to ashes | 15:31 | |
| lardman | indeed | 15:31 |
| mgedmin | ConnectNow, I think | 15:32 |
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| mgedmin | seems to work -- one tap, a 6 second pause (because the app manager is still burning CPU), and I'm offline | 15:32 |
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| mgedmin | waaah either my n900 needs a RAM upgrade, or FBReader needs some optimization | 15:32 |
| * lardman considers the things that drive him mad with the N900 - calendar, HAM, maps; and then considers that these are things that get the most use too | 15:33 | |
| mgedmin | hm, ConnectNow hardcodes the connection name instead of using my wifi when it's available | 15:34 |
| mgedmin | but at least it'll work for "go offline now, I want my battery to last" | 15:34 |
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| lcuk | lardman, and I am still taking photos of maps and stuff | 15:36 |
| mgedmin | the configuration dialog has a mysterious slider set to 96, I've no idea what it means | 15:36 |
| mgedmin | size of the icon? | 15:36 |
| mgedmin | yes | 15:37 |
| lcuk | buswhat mysterious slider o_O | 15:37 |
| lcuk | -bus | 15:37 |
| mgedmin | the icon has no padding, grr this is going to irritate me all the time | 15:37 |
| mgedmin | ZogG, thanks, I think that's precisely the widget that I found by scrolling the list of Desktop apps in app-manager | 15:38 |
| * lcuk needs a coffee machine | 15:39 | |
| mgedmin | (app-manager sorts them by I Don't Know What, and doesn't let me change the sort order, grr wtf grr) | 15:39 |
| lcuk | barisione, your ballpark, can i get one with a hose that will just keep my cup filled up? | 15:39 |
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| mgedmin | I think it *used* to let me switch between "by name" and "by size", and I'd switched to "by size", and I think it still remembers that in gconf somewhere even though it no longer lets me change the order | 15:39 |
| mgedmin | which is crackful if true | 15:39 |
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| mgedmin | oh fun, supposedly there's a hildon-desktop bug that makes it drain my battery if I add connectnow? | 15:42 |
| mgedmin | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=815339&postcount=101 | 15:42 |
| mgedmin | how's that possible? why connectnow, specifically? | 15:42 |
| lcuk | thats been fixed then | 15:43 |
| lcuk | just pending update | 15:43 |
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| lcuk | mgedmin, i have a single widget that crashes on closure | 15:43 |
| lcuk | others dont | 15:43 |
| lcuk | i just missed something off on that one place | 15:43 |
| mece | hm trying to capture screen with ffmpeg, but I dunno which encoder I should use. what is recommended on n900? | 15:44 |
| lcuk | mece, so you want a video capture? | 15:45 |
| lcuk | for a screencast | 15:45 |
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| mece | lcuk yah | 15:45 |
| mece | lcuk, just a file | 15:45 |
| mece | lcuk anything. I just don't know what the encoders are called. | 15:45 |
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| lcuk | idk, the only time i tried to do a screencast i used vnc2swf or something | 15:46 |
| mece | was gonna do something like ffmpeg -an -s 800x480 -r 25 -f x11grab -i :0.0 -vcodec something aoutput.something | 15:46 |
| mece | i want to record what i do on screen | 15:47 |
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| mece | compiled recordmydesktop, but I only got one misscolored frame so I figured I'd give ffmpeg a go | 15:48 |
| lcuk | heh | 15:49 |
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| mece | so for example h.264 wtf is the name of the encoder? | 15:50 |
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| MohammadAG51 | anyone pinged? | 15:51 |
| lardman | mp4v is the FOURCC used by the built-in recoprder | 15:51 |
| mece | mp4v? ok. | 15:51 |
| mece | hmm | 15:51 |
| mece | unknown encoder | 15:51 |
| lardman | yeah, just looking at the output of GSpot | 15:51 |
| MohammadAG51 | hmm indeed | 15:51 |
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| MohammadAG51 | someone at school got an N900 | 15:52 |
| MohammadAG51 | an admin even (argh) | 15:52 |
| MohammadAG51 | Nokia Messaging doesn't work for him | 15:52 |
| MohammadAG51 | keeps prompting for a pass, any ideas? | 15:52 |
| lcuk | enter the correct password would be a start | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | point him to tmo | 15:52 |
| luke-jr | people use that? | 15:52 |
| mece | LOL | 15:52 |
| mece | what luke-jr said! | 15:53 |
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| MohammadAG51 | i'm suspecting yahoo imap/pop needs a pass | 15:53 |
| MohammadAG51 | err, a subscription | 15:53 |
| MohammadAG51 | Stskeeps, we have enough trolls ty | 15:53 |
| MohammadAG51 | lcuk, he's been doing it all week | 15:53 |
| lcuk | eep | 15:53 |
| lcuk | i believe texrat uses it | 15:54 |
| lcuk | so could get some input from him | 15:54 |
| MohammadAG51 | NM? I use it too | 15:54 |
| lcuk | so have you tried putting your credentials into his device | 15:54 |
| lcuk | to confirm it actually works | 15:54 |
| luke-jr | MohammadAG51: no, not NetworkManager! | 15:54 |
| lcuk | then say "noob" at him and tell him to enter correct details ;) | 15:54 |
| lardman | mece: of course the encoder and player both use GStreamer | 15:54 |
| MohammadAG51 | hmm, good idea, i'll try that tomorrow | 15:55 |
| MohammadAG51 | lcuk, well, different accounts | 15:55 |
| MohammadAG51 | Yahoo sucks | 15:55 |
| MohammadAG51 | he uses that | 15:55 |
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| * MohammadAG51 uses GMail, Hotmail and Live (different addies) | 15:55 | |
| MohammadAG51 | ShadowJK, is there a way to check if a battery is fake? | 15:56 |
| mece | lardman, found libtheora.. let's see | 15:56 |
| ShadowJK | take it apart | 15:56 |
| lcuk | MohammadAG51, if you actually show him that Nokia Messaging works | 15:56 |
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| lcuk | it becomes less a device issue | 15:56 |
| MohammadAG51 | ShadowJK, SW methods? | 15:56 |
| lardman | mece: you could try using ximagesrc as a source for a gst pipeline, no idea if it would work mind you | 15:56 |
| lcuk | and gives him more confidence to move past it if hes blocking | 15:56 |
| ShadowJK | MohammadAG51, no | 15:56 |
| MohammadAG51 | even lshal? | 15:56 |
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| MohammadAG51 | The N900's keyboard rocks (when it's new at least) | 15:58 |
| mgedmin | it sure does | 15:58 |
| MohammadAG51 | his is matte-y, mine is glossy a bit | 15:58 |
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| MohammadAG51 | and it's not oil | 15:58 |
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| MohammadAG51 | the slider's also a bit tight on new devices | 15:59 |
| MohammadAG51 | makes me wanna buy a new N900 :P | 15:59 |
| lcuk | i wonder how easy it would be to tighten up slider | 15:59 |
| MohammadAG51 | tape does it well | 15:59 |
| lcuk | :| | 15:59 |
| MohammadAG51 | at least that's what tehkseven (Jon) did | 15:59 |
| lcuk | i took apart an x3 the other day and repaired its screen | 15:59 |
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| MohammadAG51 | the slider also has a nice click | 16:00 |
| MohammadAG51 | mine doesn't click when I close it slowly | 16:00 |
| lcuk | indeed | 16:00 |
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| lcuk | mine does | 16:01 |
| lcuk | but the screen face is out of alignment by about 1mm | 16:01 |
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| * lcuk hit the roof on n900fly | 16:02 | |
| ShadowJK | MohammadAG51, well, some fake batteries show up with stupid design.capacity on lshal. Some don't. | 16:02 |
| MohammadAG51 | battery.reporting.design = 1264 (0x4f0) (int) | 16:03 |
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| ShadowJK | And then another sign is when battery meter suddenly drops from somthing large-ish to empty | 16:05 |
| MohammadAG51 | is 2 bars largish? | 16:05 |
| MohammadAG51 | or about 3 | 16:05 |
| MohammadAG51 | hmm | 16:06 |
| MohammadAG51 | Battery low | 16:06 |
| ShadowJK | The bars are useless | 16:06 |
| MohammadAG51 | it wasn't exactly low... | 16:06 |
| MohammadAG51 | 201 mAh is low? | 16:06 |
| MohammadAG51 | wtf | 16:06 |
| mece | uh how do I do a wait and then execute command on one line? | 16:06 |
| mece | in shell | 16:06 |
| ShadowJK | 201 according to what? | 16:06 |
| MohammadAG51 | battery.reporting.current = 201 (0xc9) (int) | 16:07 |
| mece | like sleep 5 | do stuff | 16:07 |
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| ShadowJK | MohammadAG51, usually that becomes 5 at battery low | 16:07 |
| MohammadAG51 | && or ; | 16:07 |
| MohammadAG51 | ShadowJK, yeah I know | 16:07 |
| MohammadAG51 | but it shows 201 on this battery (I have 3) | 16:07 |
| MohammadAG51 | 2 of them behave, this doesn't | 16:07 |
| MohammadAG51 | it kinda looks fishy too | 16:07 |
| ShadowJK | But anyway, you need like 2 measurements close together in time, plus the third battery low one to say anything.. as the meter is lazily updated you might just be looking at the hours old value when you come out of standby | 16:08 |
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| ShadowJK | I'd disassemble it :-) | 16:08 |
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| * lcuk ponders an afternoon beer | 16:08 | |
| Jef91 | Is there an easy way to list which programs are using up how much space on my n900? | 16:08 |
| MohammadAG51 | ShadowJK, is disassembling it easy? | 16:08 |
| Jef91 | I have 1.2gig used in my /home and I don't have that much installed XD | 16:08 |
| lardman | lcuk: :) | 16:08 |
| lcuk | lardman, long weekend ftw | 16:08 |
| MohammadAG51 | du -h /opt | 16:08 |
| lcuk | it feels like sunday | 16:09 |
| ShadowJK | MohammadAG51, probably not :) | 16:09 |
| lardman | lcuk: ah, nice | 16:09 |
| ShadowJK | irreversible too :D | 16:09 |
| dsg | Could someone send me their output of "gconftool -R /system/osso/af/mmc" from a working phone? thx :) | 16:09 |
| MohammadAG51 | I guessed so xD | 16:09 |
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| mece | ah got it | 16:09 |
| MohammadAG51 | ShadowJK, X-Ray? :P | 16:09 |
| lardman | Jef91: maps perhaps? | 16:09 |
| mece | (sleep 5; command) | 16:09 |
| MohammadAG51 | <MohammadAG51> && or ; | 16:09 |
| Jef91 | lardman Sygic resides in /home/MyDocs or are you talking about maemo maps? | 16:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | and why the () ? | 16:10 |
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| MohammadAG51 | & for at the same time (i.e don't wait for the previous one to exit) | 16:10 |
| lardman | Jef91: Mappero perhaps? | 16:10 |
| MohammadAG51 | it's /home/user/MyDocs | 16:10 |
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| Jef91 | whatevs mohammad :P | 16:10 |
| lardman | Jef91: just cd to the dir and issue du > somefile.txt | 16:10 |
| Jef91 | mappero eats up space lardman? I know I have that installed | 16:11 |
| lardman | yeah, the map tiles do | 16:11 |
| mgedmin | dsg, http://pastie.org/1169943 | 16:11 |
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| lardman | MohammadAG51: and && requires that the previous command does not fail of course | 16:11 |
| dsg | mgedmin: Thanks | 16:11 |
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| MohammadAG51 | dsg, internal-mmc-corrupted = false | 16:12 |
| MohammadAG51 | mmc-corrupted = true | 16:12 |
| MohammadAG51 | ext3 ^ | 16:12 |
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| Jef91 | God installing things from ovi takes a year and a half | 16:13 |
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| lardman | I've never even looked at Ovi | 16:15 |
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| * MohammadAG51 uses apt to install from Ovi | 16:15 | |
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| Jef91 | has some decent games | 16:15 |
| RST38h | probably haven;t missed much | 16:15 |
| Jef91 | mohammandag51 is there a package list somewhere for the ovi packages? | 16:15 |
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| kwtm | lardman: Same here, never looked at Ovi after trying Ovi Maps. Either there is something major I am missing, or they hired some high school student to design the interface for a summer job. | 16:16 |
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| Jef91 | anyone know what is up with nokia taking the n900 off their US website? | 16:17 |
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| kwtm | Jef91: Anything from Ovi Store worth looking at, besides games? | 16:17 |
| Jef91 | Uhh. No not really. | 16:17 |
| ShadowJK | Nokia USA has never done anything consistent and logical afaik :-) | 16:17 |
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| Jef91 | Only non-FOSS apps on my n900 are games and sygic | 16:18 |
| lardman | kwtm: :) | 16:18 |
| psycho_oreos | there's some utilities on ovi, stuff like spirit level | 16:18 |
| lardman | is Ovi a web page? | 16:18 |
| lardman | or a webapp? | 16:18 |
| Jef91 | Basically. | 16:18 |
| Jef91 | Webpage | 16:18 |
| Jef91 | you can actually view on a PC | 16:19 |
| Jef91 | and send the apps to the n900 | 16:19 |
| lardman | which then uses HAM to do the installation? | 16:19 |
| Jef91 | HAM? | 16:19 |
| rmrfchik | Jef91: you deleted phone application??? | 16:19 |
| lardman | hildon application manager | 16:19 |
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| Jef91 | ahh - yes lardman | 16:19 |
| rmrfchik | brave man! | 16:19 |
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| lardman | Jef91: well that's the major problem, it would really have been better imho to integrate the Ovi store in the HAM app | 16:20 |
| Jef91 | Yep | 16:20 |
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| lardman | and at the same time do the useful things one gets on Android/iPhone like bg installs, ratings and reviews all integrated | 16:20 |
| Jef91 | fully agree | 16:20 |
| Jef91 | pfff | 16:21 |
| Jef91 | Lardman. | 16:21 |
| Jef91 | If you keep talking logic like this. | 16:21 |
| Jef91 | Someone from nokia is going to hunt you down | 16:21 |
| lardman | lol | 16:21 |
| Jef91 | And well, maybe put you on the payroll | 16:21 |
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| psycho_oreos | there has always been an issue with paying for applications that required payment.. that plus the fact that I think n900 was rushed to be released, with the UI lacking many usability it goes to show nothing was thought thoroughly and done thoroughly | 16:21 |
| lardman | I've done my fair share of talking to the Nokia devs | 16:22 |
| mgedmin | psycho_oreos, nokia always acknowledged that n900 was not ready for the mainstream user | 16:22 |
| Jef91 | fully agree psycho_oreos pr1.2 | 16:22 |
| Jef91 | should have been the release OS | 16:22 |
| mgedmin | "step 4 out of 5" | 16:22 |
| rmrfchik | lol, nokia harmless. they can't manage to make good software, how can the manage to hunt man down? this is much harder ;) | 16:22 |
| Jef91 | apt-get install kroll is giving me "E:Handler silently failed" | 16:22 |
| Jef91 | What does that mean? Been using apt-get on desktop distros awhile now and never seen that | 16:23 |
| psycho_oreos | mgedmin, its quite sad really, especially if you're expecting a linux on a phone feature and something that isn't android based... here you have it | 16:23 |
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| lardman | Anyway hopefully things will be different with Meego | 16:23 |
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| Jef91 | Things better be different with meego | 16:23 |
| mgedmin | psycho_oreos, I'm guessing you never had an 77, n800 or a n810 | 16:23 |
| Jef91 | although RPMs scare me | 16:23 |
| mgedmin | the n900 was such a big leap forward, I didn't believe it wasn't ready when I first saw it | 16:23 |
| psycho_oreos | mgedmin, that's correct, I got n900 was because it was available from a regular mobile phone shop | 16:24 |
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| lardman | what scares me is the chasm like gap between anything being released | 16:24 |
| * MohammadAG51 hates RPM | 16:24 | |
| Jef91 | +1 mohammandag51 | 16:24 |
| Jef91 | Even PCLinuxOS (which uses apt to manage rpms) blows most of the time. | 16:24 |
| zutesmog | +1 | 16:24 |
| * psycho_oreos hates RPM but thinks we don't have a choice with meego, its either you go with the flow or you choose something else | 16:24 | |
| lardman | makes no odds to me as long as it works, not too bothered about the technical trade-offs | 16:24 |
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| Jef91 | Well, | 16:25 |
| Jef91 | I am hoping with intel in on the whole meego things | 16:25 |
| Jef91 | shit will actually get done right | 16:25 |
| rmrfchik | psycho_oreos: correct question has the answer! ...choose something else ;) | 16:25 |
| lardman | well the underlying systems weren't too bad in Maemo, just some apps were really rather annoying | 16:25 |
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| Jef91 | anyone else here know of/lurk /r/n900? - http://www.reddit.com/r/n900/ | 16:26 |
| mgedmin | lardman, I've started to seriously doubt the decision to use a swap partition on a phone | 16:27 |
| psycho_oreos | mgedmin, to me, NIT without phone functionality wasn't of much use to myself. Granted NIT was targeting for those who wants a MID computer but for me I wanted one that not only has mini computer capabilities but also a phone, so its in a way squaring a fight against the likes of apple and their iphones. Alas I don't come to expect for whats to be on n900 apart from the fact that its a linux device with phone functionality and I was quite happy with that to | 16:27 |
| psycho_oreos | the very least (something that isn't android) | 16:27 |
| lardman | mgedmin: agreed, really forcing people to do transparent state saving and resuming would be better | 16:27 |
| lcuk | mgedmin, i dont mind the swap function for when its needed | 16:28 |
| psycho_oreos | rmrfchik, there aren't many alternatives that I have looked at and liked apart from meego I'm afraid.. android is nice its own ways but its not suitable for the things I want to deal with (such as low level hardware access, the unlikely need to jailbreak, etc, etc) | 16:28 |
| mgedmin | but it makes the ui unpredictably sluggish | 16:28 |
| lcuk | its premature usage thats annoying and apps expecting big desktop memory utility | 16:28 |
| mgedmin | since core functions get swapped out | 16:28 |
| lcuk | yip | 16:28 |
| lardman | lcuk: indeed | 16:28 |
| rmrfchik | psycho_oreos: if you will support nokia with money, they will continue make shit | 16:29 |
| psycho_oreos | rmrfchik, then again to look at the alternatives, there aren't many to begin with apart from android and the usual catch 22 with them | 16:29 |
| lardman | http://maemo.nokia.com/features/calendar/ how do I get different coloured items in my calendar? | 16:29 |
| jarkkom | colors are by calendar, so just create new calendar and add items under that | 16:30 |
| lardman | oh I see | 16:30 |
| psycho_oreos | lardman, you can get them from synchroising from another device or program | 16:30 |
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| lardman | and birthdays are pink all the time | 16:31 |
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| lcuk | lardman, holly has many birthdays a year. | 16:32 |
| frenchy_ | ok im coming here one last time before i sell my n810 for parts, i think i hosed the bootloader, can anyone help me to get it working again? i get no response whatsoever from the device | 16:32 |
| lcuk | your job as a man is not to question that | 16:32 |
| lardman | lcuk: :) | 16:32 |
| lcuk | hey frenchy_ did you try a new battery? | 16:32 |
| frenchy_ | lcuk, yeah | 16:33 |
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| lcuk | then thats unfortunate | 16:33 |
| lcuk | where abouts are you | 16:33 |
| frenchy_ | North Carolina USA | 16:33 |
| lardman | how did you hose the bootloader? | 16:34 |
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| frenchy_ | lardman, trying to install mamona | 16:34 |
| lardman | dd'ing something you shouldn't have? | 16:34 |
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| frenchy_ | lardman, i just used the flasher tool | 16:34 |
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| psycho_oreos | not that I've ever owned n810 but have you tried flashing with the original firmware to see if that works? | 16:34 |
| lardman | hmm, the flasher shouldn't be able to do that | 16:34 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, well i cant get it to turn on, light up, charge or anything | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | psycho_oreos: how to flash without NOLO?? | 16:35 |
| frenchy_ | psycho_oreos, i cant get it into usb mode to flash anything, computer wont recognize it | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | frenchy_: get it to Nokia care center | 16:36 |
| lardman | strange | 16:36 |
| psycho_oreos | DocScrutinizer, well I dunno lol, see I think that's where its different between n8x0 and n900, NOLO isn't really easily accessible under n900, at least not with flasher tool I believe | 16:36 |
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| psycho_oreos | frenchy_, ahh | 16:36 |
| lardman | psycho_oreos: how do you mean? They appear pretty similar | 16:36 |
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| catface | eu | 16:38 |
| psycho_oreos | lardman, like I said, I've never owned n8x0 series.. n900 is my first maemo device.. so for some weird reason NOLO was overwritten.. and if it was overwritten by flasher, maybe one final way is via JTAG (if that's possible with right tools/knowledge) | 16:38 |
| catface | hey | 16:38 |
| frenchy_ | DocScrutinizer, where would a nokia care center be, ive searched the net but cant seem to find any info | 16:38 |
| catface | ah sorry** | 16:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer | frenchy_: either 'repair' takes 5min (if they don't need to send it elsewhere) and costs a few $, or you really got a broken hw and won't have to regret when you sell it for also a few $ | 16:38 |
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| lardman | psycho_oreos: afair the n8x0 also had the NOLO business, and when you flash it only flashes one part at a time, which should mean you can recover if the flashing is halted half way. Also the flasher is supposed to check the integrity of the parts to be flashed | 16:39 |
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| frenchy_ | DocScrutinizer, no where can i find a nokia care center | 16:39 |
| lardman | but yeah, JTAG is the fallback | 16:39 |
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| psycho_oreos | lardman, hmm ok | 16:40 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, how would i go about repairing it if flashing halted halfway | 16:40 |
| lcuk | frenchy_, put a request on talk.maemo.org and see if anyone is nearby, I know theres some n900 owners around | 16:40 |
| lardman | frenchy_: it remain flashable afaiu | 16:40 |
| lcuk | http://pininthemap.com/maemo | 16:40 |
| lardman | there are 2 sets of flashing code or something along those lines, each flashed one at a time | 16:40 |
| frenchy_ | lcuk, how would how owuld n900 owners be able to help | 16:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | frenchy_: I have no idea. Look, I'm a european resident | 16:40 |
| lcuk | frenchy_, i didnt say they would | 16:41 |
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| lcuk | but they are maemo supporters | 16:41 |
| lcuk | and many have had earlier devices too | 16:41 |
| lardman | frenchy_: how long ago did this happen? Are you sure the battery has enough juice to even start the flashing code? | 16:41 |
| lcuk | :) | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | frenchy_: here I take the phonebook, look for "phoneshops" and there for one that has "nokia" in the name | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are several in every town | 16:42 |
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| erez_ | hello | 16:43 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, the battery was full when i did it, when i plug it in the charge icon doesnt even show up | 16:43 |
| erez_ | does anyone know if there is a successor for the n900 ? | 16:43 |
| lardman | frenchy_: was this quite recent though? | 16:43 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, yeah like a week ago | 16:44 |
| lardman | ok fine | 16:44 |
| psycho_oreos | erez_, there will be, its not out yet | 16:44 |
| lardman | just that if the battery gets too low it can't start the kernel/flashing code and it also can't charge the battery | 16:44 |
| lardman | frenchy_: have you tried flashing it again, even though nothing shows up on the screen? | 16:44 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, why wouldnt it charge the battery charge, isnt it supposed to do that when it gets low | 16:45 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, yes ive tried flashing, computer doesnt recognize it | 16:45 |
| lardman | the kernel must be running to charge the battery, so if it's too low, no charging | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | frenchy_: N<900 has sw controlled charging | 16:45 |
| lardman | frenchy_: what method did you use to try to start the flashing? Pull battery, wait 10, re-insert battery, plug usb, plug power cord? | 16:46 |
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| lardman | Also, are you using Linux or Windows here? | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway, iirc you tested with fresh battery, so all you can do is: take it to Nokia care, or DIY a jig to contact the debug test points under battery, and JTAG flash yourself | 16:47 |
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| frenchy_ | lardman, ive tried everything, linux and windows, ive tried the cold flash option with -S usb but ive only seen info about that working on n900 | 16:47 |
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| Stskeeps | frenchy_: how -exactly- did you destroy it? | 16:47 |
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| lardman | frenchy_: ok, so go with DocScrutinizer's suggestion | 16:47 |
| lardman | frenchy_: http://www.nokiausa.com/get-support-and-software/repair-and-recycle/repair/repair-locator | 16:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer | darn, how hard can it be to go to nokiausa.com and find certified shops? | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | lardman: hehe, exactly | 16:48 |
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| lardman | Stskeeps: out of interest, do you know what happens when e.g. the bootloader/flashing code1/flashing code 2 gets corrupted? | 16:51 |
| Stskeeps | have to cold flash | 16:51 |
| lardman | always? | 16:52 |
| Stskeeps | afaik | 16:52 |
| lardman | ok | 16:52 |
| Stskeeps | cold flash can be over usb on n900 | 16:52 |
| Stskeeps | afaik | 16:52 |
| lardman | I thought the N8x0 were equally robust, but can't remember | 16:52 |
| GAN800 | DocScrutinizer: there aren't any | 16:52 |
| GAN800 | Nokia is fail in the US | 16:52 |
| lardman | I was just wondering if there would be any visual indications, or it would just look dead until you do the right thing | 16:52 |
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| lardman | hey GAN800 | 16:53 |
| GAN800 | Partially because of their godawful support chain here | 16:53 |
| GAN800 | Howdy | 16:53 |
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| erez_ | psyco_oreos, is there a schedule ? i want to buy a new open phone, just wanted to know if to buy an n900, or wait for the new one | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | GAN800: think the webpage lardman posted above should spit out some shipping address at *very* least | 16:55 |
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| SpeedEvil | erez_: there is no schedule | 16:56 |
| frenchy_ | the link lardman posted eventually brings you to a form you fill out and then you can ship it to nokia but doesnt seem to give any info on how much it will cost for anything | 16:56 |
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| Termana | SpeedEvil, that's not true. I'm sure Nokia has a schedule for the next release. There just isn't any publicly available schedule | 16:56 |
| lardman | frenchy_: that's normal | 16:57 |
| erez_ | ok, thanks | 16:57 |
| lardman | frenchy_: I guess you'll get some inspection fee, then a phone call do tell them whether or not to proceed | 16:57 |
| GAN800 | They'll quote you when they look at it | 16:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | GAN800: I know USA is completely fsckdup in many respects, regarding customer relationships - I mean where else can you sue microwave manuf for not warning to not dry the cat inside the oven - but I bet Nokia has some central service center in USA | 16:57 |
| GAN800 | Hopefully it's under warranty though | 16:57 |
| lardman | lol | 16:58 |
| GAN800 | DocScrutinizer: They do | 16:58 |
| * SpeedEvil stabs Termana. | 16:58 | |
| GAN800 | But those suck too | 16:58 |
| * Termana dies | 16:58 | |
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| SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: that's not quite true. | 16:58 |
| lardman | I wonder when lcuk's going to get back with my beer....? | 16:59 |
| SpeedEvil | DocScrutinizer: you can safely use conventional oven mode to dry the cat. | 16:59 |
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| Termana | lol | 16:59 |
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| * Termana puts his cat far away from SpeedEvil | 17:00 | |
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| GAN800 | I hope Nokia's new execs manage to crack the US market | 17:02 |
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| lardman | I just hope they get some new hw out soon | 17:02 |
| GAN800 | OPK clearly had no idea what he was about | 17:03 |
| * DocScrutinizer envisions a naked LOLCAT saying "betrr zat then microwavers" | 17:03 | |
| ShadowJK | I think the first reaction of any exec looking at how the US market works is *facepalm* | 17:03 |
| lcuk | lardman, i started thinking about some code and forgot all about beer | 17:03 |
| lardman | lol | 17:03 |
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| * SpeedEvil ponders. | 17:04 | |
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| jaska | us markets seem to depend on how much hitlerware the carriers can force on consumers?:) | 17:04 |
| SpeedEvil | There is - relatively - little I'd want to change about the hardware. | 17:04 |
| lcuk | i did 90degree rotation of bitmaps recently, i want to make that arbritary angle | 17:04 |
| SpeedEvil | I want the area round the screen to be touch sensitive. | 17:04 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, it is | 17:04 |
| SpeedEvil | As a seperate 'scroll' area. | 17:04 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: only +5 pixels or so | 17:04 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: not all the way out | 17:04 |
| Termana | jaska, Godwin's law | 17:04 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, I mean to knocks and bangs | 17:04 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 17:05 |
| lardman | SpeedEvil: bit thinner would be good, but yes, I actually want new sw, but I guess we won't really see that until some hw appears | 17:05 |
| Termana | This conversation is over | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: some 3mm | 17:05 |
| jaska | termana: i do not subscribe to that interpretation of godwins law. | 17:05 |
| lardman | lcuk: yuk, interpolation | 17:05 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, i was talking with pupnik | 17:05 |
| lcuk | the bexel being sensitive would be awesome | 17:05 |
| SpeedEvil | I have maybe a 5mm depth case | 17:05 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: yeah | 17:05 |
| lcuk | lardman, thats not the hard part | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | actual touch sensitive area is +3mm to all 4 directions of screen | 17:05 |
| lcuk | its juggling all the variables and remembering which group relate to which | 17:06 |
| ShadowJK | SpeedEvil, I wonder if this big "inactive" touch are was needed to get consistent sensitivty on the viewable area.. | 17:06 |
| lardman | and let's not forget making it run quickly too ;) | 17:06 |
| lcuk | ShadowJK, its just a calibration thing | 17:06 |
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| lcuk | the touch digitiser on 810 was similar | 17:07 |
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| lcuk | it just sticks over the top and has higher resolution, its great | 17:07 |
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| ShadowJK | I wonder why the software doesn't let you calibrate that :/ | 17:07 |
| lcuk | i wonder if you could get a resitive overlay for iphone or ipad | 17:07 |
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| lcuk | ShadowJK, it doesnt need to? | 17:08 |
| lcuk | you get pixels 0 to 799 or whatever | 17:08 |
| lcuk | x is doing its job | 17:08 |
| lcuk | and if you need the raw ones you can get them | 17:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: a reasonable assumption (consistency) | 17:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: nope you can't | 17:09 |
| ShadowJK | lcuk, I mean the black hole issue of N8x0 isn't present on my n900? | 17:09 |
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| ShadowJK | like, 3mm from edges on my n800 is about as sensitive as n900 screen | 17:10 |
| ShadowJK | but middle of screen on my n800 shows 0 response to thumb touches | 17:11 |
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| lcuk | ShadowJK, thats age | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | duh | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's bad | 17:11 |
| lcuk | its the same on mine DocScrutinizer | 17:11 |
| lcuk | in the area i draw on most | 17:12 |
| lcuk | its not sensitive to finger | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | what exactly is aging there, physically? | 17:12 |
| ShadowJK | well my N900 is now about twice as old as my N810 was when I first noticed it :) | 17:12 |
| lcuk | but still works perfectly with stylus | 17:12 |
| frenchy_ | the answer is probably no to this but is it possible to boot from a memory card on the n810 if the internal bootloader is gone | 17:12 |
| lcuk | DocScrutinizer, the sandwich layers are closer i am betting | 17:12 |
| lcuk | like an old sofa | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | conductive resistive coating of the plastic planes wearing? | 17:12 |
| ShadowJK | frenchy_, no | 17:13 |
| Jef91 | god I was tmobile would roll out hspa+ in chicago already | 17:13 |
| Jef91 | downloading 150megs over 3g blows | 17:13 |
| lcuk | frenchy_, you want signs of life for anything | 17:13 |
| lardman | frenchy_: but unless you dd'd the partition holding the bootloader, etc., you should really be able to flash somehow still | 17:13 |
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| * ShadowJK is downloading a live iso over HSDPA non-plus | 17:14 | |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm, no. If it works with stylus, it more sounds like non-conductive 'dirt' coating building up on top of the resistive conductive layer | 17:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer | maybe oxidation | 17:14 |
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| frenchy_ | lardman, any idea how? | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | or oil separator goin resin | 17:15 |
| ShadowJK | well it only took like 10 years for nokia to solve the "wtf there's dist INSIDE the display?" experience :) | 17:15 |
| ShadowJK | firt* | 17:15 |
| ShadowJK | dirt even | 17:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer | lcuk: does the sensitivity change with temperature? | 17:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I.E on high temp it gets better? | 17:16 |
| GAN800 | ShadowJK: Nokia had a lot of goodwill in the US which they squandered away with unimaginably bad customer support, delayed or nonexistant hardware releases, even more delayed software releases, and generally treating the US consumer like crap | 17:16 |
| lardman | frenchy_: as Stskeeps said, how exactly did you break it? | 17:16 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, trying to flash mamono on it, i must have disconnected it too early | 17:17 |
| lardman | so not a power out? | 17:17 |
| lardman | Windows or Linux flasher? | 17:17 |
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| lardman | Also, what were you flashing, kernel + rootfs alone I guess? | 17:17 |
| GAN800 | Innovartion, advertisint, synched releases and a good support chain fix it | 17:17 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, when i did it it was linux | 17:18 |
| lardman | GAN800: well the hw & sw delays have also not gone down so well over here | 17:18 |
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| lardman | frenchy_: ok, and which files were you flashing? | 17:18 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, i think i created an image combining the mamona rootfs with the maemo image to get proprietary aspects working | 17:18 |
| lardman | but I guess that was a rootfs, as iirc it's still not possible to generate a FIASCO image is it | 17:19 |
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| lardman | I'm trying to establish whether you flashed the bootloader, flashers, etc., or if this stems from just flashing the kernel and rootfs | 17:19 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, yeah i think the process they get youdo to creates a FIASCO image combining the 2 | 17:20 |
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| lardman | frenchy_: do you have an URL? | 17:20 |
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| frenchy_ | http://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/wiki/Releases/0.2/RunningMamona | 17:21 |
| frenchy_ | there is a recover broken device section but it seems they were still able to see some life from the device when getting it fixed | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | frenchy_: ok, so, what happens if you take a FIASCO image and simply flasher -F fiasco-filename -f -R | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | ? | 17:22 |
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| MohammadAG51 | on the N900? nothing | 17:23 |
| frenchy_ | Stskeeps, nothing, it wont power on to where i can put it in USB mode | 17:23 |
| lardman | if that fails, I'd look at the fiasco image you flashed (extract the contents and compare to the expected contents) | 17:23 |
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| lardman | frenchy_: ah | 17:23 |
| satmd | :( | 17:23 |
| lardman | frenchy_: did you see my instructions earlier? | 17:23 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, i dont believe so, what did you say | 17:24 |
| MohammadAG51 | then try to pop out the batt, connect usb, run flasher, then connect the batt | 17:24 |
| lardman | pull battery, put it back, plug in the usb, then apply external power - it will then boot to flashing mode, if possible | 17:24 |
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| lardman | no need to fiddle with keypresses, etc | 17:24 |
| Stskeeps | frenchy_: does the NOKIA logo show? | 17:24 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: nothing afaiu | 17:25 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, i will give it a try, but im pretty sure all the things ive done ive done that at least once lol | 17:25 |
| lardman | :) | 17:25 |
| frenchy_ | Stskeeps, no no nokia lofo | 17:25 |
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| Stskeeps | frenchy_: it might simply be that your battery is depleted | 17:25 |
| MohammadAG51 | or NOLO's fucked | 17:26 |
| lardman | frenchy_: did you check the md5 on your original FIASCO image? | 17:26 |
| frenchy_ | Stskeeps, battery was at full charge when i hosed it, and have since then tested it with a multimeter | 17:26 |
| frenchy_ | lardman, i dont have the mamona image anymore | 17:26 |
| lardman | oh | 17:26 |
| lardman | I wonder if 0xFFFF checks the contents for corruption | 17:27 |
| lcuk | DocScrutinizer, its a question involving charges, yes it will change with temperature | 17:27 |
| satmd | so I guess the device doesn't vibrate neither on power up attempts? | 17:27 |
| lcuk | i recall people having failure only occuring once device warmed up | 17:27 |
| lardman | satmd: it's not an N900 | 17:27 |
| satmd | oh :( | 17:27 |
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| frenchy_ | lardman, your instructions did not work | 17:28 |
| lardman | ok | 17:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | it's dead, Jim! Let's take it to Nokia care center | 17:31 |
| MohammadAG51 | who's Jim :P | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | No, Bones, you'll try to reanimate it with your phaser! | 17:33 |
| GAN800 | lardman: No, but releasing the US 5800 six months after the rest of the world and taking longer than that with it's software doesn't exactly inspire loyalty | 17:33 |
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| lardman | GAN800: | 17:33 |
| lardman | GAN800: oops, I meant to say "yep" | 17:34 |
| lardman | frenchy_: am reading not so great things about checksuming in FIASCO images in the source for 0xFFFF | 17:34 |
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| lardman | anyway, if you don't have the original files, it's not going to be possible to track down which bit was corrupt | 17:35 |
| lardman | send it off | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | lardman: if 0xFFFF for any reason touched the wrong partition then it's quite irrelevant if the checksum is correct. If it didn't then wtf is use for the rootfs checksum here | 17:36 |
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| lardman | it won't be the rootfs, but if the original FIASCO was corrupt, then the bootloader, etc., may be corrupt | 17:36 |
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| lardman | the other thing I seem to remember was that a too-large kernel could be flashed, not sure what that then overwrites mind you | 17:37 |
| lardman | I also can't find the source for 0.0.4 of 0xFFFF | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | it probably ruined flash on a low level, thus not caring at all about separate partitions. So either NOLO or cal or both is defect | 17:37 |
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| DocScrutinizer | lardman: (too large) quite possible, writing beyond end of partiton | 17:38 |
| lardman | but iirc that was recoverable by reflashing | 17:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I bet NOLO doesn't check for end-of-partition for every single byte it receives and flashes to NAND | 17:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer | if you know about numbering aka sequence of partitions in NNAD, then you probably could figure what's going to happen when you flash a too large image | 17:40 |
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| MohammadAG51 | it does check for EOF though | 17:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG51: fine. And who's sending that EOF? | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | and when? | 17:41 |
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| MohammadAG51 | well, flash a broken rootfs image, NOLO errors out, not flasher | 17:41 |
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| lardman | inspecting the 0xFFFF code would give the partition order | 17:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | whatever. Use your phaser, Bones! No, you have to use higher power level... | 17:42 |
| MohammadAG51 | partition order? | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're not going to reflash *anything* on a device that simply doesn't come up | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | ergo: useless effort | 17:44 |
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| lardman | it would be interesting to know what's wrong though ;) | 17:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer | sure | 17:44 |
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| lardman | but as you say, ultimately pointless | 17:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | but I bet frenchy isn't that much interested | 17:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | (proof: he left) | 17:45 |
| lardman | oh dear | 17:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer | h deer | 17:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer | :-P | 17:47 |
| GAN800 | Pffffft | 17:47 |
| GAN800 | Colloquy's idle timeout is 10 minutes | 17:47 |
| GAN800 | Then it kills your connection | 17:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | uh wut? | 17:47 |
| Jartza | why oh why | 17:48 |
| GAN800 | iPhone IRC | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | pffft | 17:48 |
| MohammadAG51 | you can't have xchat on iOS :P | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | coloquy is killing connections, iOS is killing your sanity | 17:49 |
| MohammadAG51 | Steve Jobs getting revenge | 17:49 |
| MohammadAG51 | sorry, i went too far | 17:49 |
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| saahleh | 'estimated update time: 10 hours, 5 minutes' | 17:54 |
| saahleh | sorry | 17:55 |
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| DocScrutinizer51 | yeah, I'm too | 17:55 |
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| Stskeeps | 'lo qole | 17:58 |
| MohammadAG51 | hi qole | 17:59 |
| Khertan1 | help ... i m looking for dbus expert for a little help on my khweeteur notification | 17:59 |
| Khertan1 | the dbus-callback-default doesn't seems to be called | 18:00 |
| Khertan1 | and i didn't understand why | 18:00 |
| Khertan1 | source is here : http://gitorious.org/khweeteur/khweeteur/blobs/master/khweeteur/__init__.py | 18:00 |
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| sobczyk | hi anyone hit bug with no wifi networks to connect to? I am sure there are because iwlist shows there are | 18:29 |
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| jpinx-eeepc | sobczyk: hidden WAP's ? | 18:31 |
| sobczyk | no, in place I am in there are plenty of AP | 18:31 |
| * RST38h moos | 18:32 | |
| sobczyk | I think I'll need to troubleshoot this... | 18:33 |
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| lardman | cu later chaps | 18:40 |
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| timeless_pidgin | Doc: what's my next number? :) | 18:55 |
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| timeless_pidgin | :(, has anyone helpfully compiled my list? I wouldn't want to repeat myself :o | 19:19 |
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| lcuk | oi timeless_pidgin you couldv prefixes/suffixed your list with a hashtag or something | 19:28 |
| lcuk | then we couldv grepped the logs | 19:28 |
| lcuk | currently mgedmin's server is stressing at a search for "timeless ." | 19:28 |
| lcuk | since you prefixed all of the with a number and a dot | 19:28 |
| mgedmin | the search script is incredibly dumb | 19:28 |
| mgedmin | it does no regexps | 19:28 |
| mgedmin | but it reads all 700 megs from disk every time | 19:28 |
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| lcuk | :$ indeed mgedmin hence me trying to be light with it lol | 19:29 |
| lcuk | but it wont find a search with a . | 19:30 |
| lcuk | it does find similar with ) | 19:30 |
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| kerio | GAN900: i thought Colloquy on iOS4 had true-ish backgrounding | 19:31 |
| mgedmin | lcuk, nothing special about dots there | 19:31 |
| mgedmin | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mgedmin/irclog2html/trunk/annotate/head:/src/irclog2html/irclogsearch.py#L138 | 19:31 |
| lcuk | mgedmin, ahh so its only pulling up specific string "timeless"+space+"." | 19:32 |
| mgedmin | yep | 19:32 |
| lcuk | that would explain it then, bah | 19:33 |
| lcuk | no timeless_pidgin theres no collated version :P | 19:33 |
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| lcuk | mgedmin, i have a similar silly search like that on windows | 19:34 |
| lcuk | for dumpster diving my code | 19:34 |
| lcuk | but it breaks each phrase supplied into words | 19:34 |
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| lcuk | and checks against them | 19:35 |
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| *** lopz has joined #maemo | 19:36 | |
| lopz | hi :) | 19:36 |
| timeless_pidgin | Oops :( | 19:37 |
| timeless_pidgin | perl -ne 'next unless m!nick[^>]*.timeless.*?">(.*?)</td>!; print "$1\n"' 14 | 19:39 |
| timeless_pidgin | Seems to do something vaguely useful | 19:39 |
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| timeless_pidgin | perl -ne 'next unless m!nick[^>]*.timeless.*?">(\d+\..*?)</td>!; print "$1\n"' 14 | 19:40 |
| timeless_pidgin | Is almost ok | 19:40 |
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| timeless_pidgin | Looks like i had two 4s | 19:41 |
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| timeless_pidgin | http://konigsberg.mozilla.org/maemo.txt is my current poor man's extract | 19:43 |
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| Stskeeps | timeless_pidgin: are there any certain gcc flags that mozilla is typically not working together with? | 19:43 |
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| timeless_pidgin | Fastmath? | 19:44 |
| timeless_pidgin | Enable broken floating point | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: not there at least | 19:44 |
| timeless_pidgin | That's the first that comes to mind anyway | 19:44 |
| timeless_pidgin | What-cha got? | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | well, we have a fennec-qt that crashes on ARM, so that's fun.. | 19:45 |
| Stskeeps | like, on startup | 19:45 |
| timeless_pidgin | Stack? | 19:46 |
| timeless_pidgin | And which flags are you using? | 19:46 |
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| timeless_pidgin | Oh wait | 19:47 |
| timeless_pidgin | Are you using a broken ver of gcc? | 19:47 |
| timeless_pidgin | 4.5 counts | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | gcc4.5, does it qualify? | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:47 |
| timeless_pidgin | Ayup | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | got any gcc bugs i can refer to? | 19:47 |
| timeless_pidgin | The idiots shipped a compiler that doesn't support their *own* libffi or whatever it was | 19:47 |
| Stskeeps | crashes in javascript stuff i think | 19:48 |
| Stskeeps | works on x86 though | 19:48 |
| timeless_pidgin | It should be in the logs for #meego when i explained that gcc 4.5 is NOT OK | 19:48 |
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| * Noobmonk3y waves | 19:48 | |
| Noobmonk3y | I r Need Geek! | 19:48 |
| timeless_pidgin | And that choosing a compiler w/o making sure it isn't horribly broken is downright stupid | 19:48 |
| Noobmonk3y | Can someone clever please tell me a VNC viewer (for a pc) that will allow me to screenshot the view easily? | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | timeless_pidgin: after we had dbus crashing cos of a gcc bug, i pretty much agree | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 19:49 |
| timeless_pidgin | http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=40701 might be it | 19:49 |
| povbot | Bug 40701: was not found. | 19:49 |
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| * Stskeeps looks | 19:49 | |
| timeless_pidgin | Nope | 19:50 |
| timeless_pidgin | There was probably a heads-up in mozilla.dev. Something about not updating to 4.5.. Still looking | 19:52 |
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| Noobmonk3y | lcuk, I need your brains! :P | 19:52 |
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| johnsq | Hi | 19:53 |
| Noobmonk3y | hi johnsq | 19:53 |
| frals | Noobmonk3y: tightvnc should do it... i think :P | 19:55 |
| timeless_pidgin | https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=594611 | 19:56 |
| povbot | Bug 594611: was not found. | 19:56 |
| Noobmonk3y | yeah using it, so simple screenshot, want to do loads on the n900, but screenshotting and pasting, saving is effort lol | 19:56 |
| Noobmonk3y | cheers though frals | 19:56 |
| timeless_pidgin | That's http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=45623 | 19:57 |
| povbot | Bug 45623: was not found. | 19:57 |
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| sobczyk | anyone had a problem with the wireless network picker? It stopped work for me, if it shows up,there are no networks visible (iwlist works fine) and sometimes it even does not show up | 20:00 |
| Noobmonk3y | sorry sob, seems to work ok for me, but i dont swap w networks all that often | 20:00 |
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| timeless_pidgin | ... There are a couple of ways to break the network picker | 20:05 |
| timeless_pidgin | One is to give bad credentials for a wpa2 advanced network (where you need to present a certificate ) | 20:05 |
| sobczyk | lol, it started to work, automagically, though I removed libicd-network-usb along with it's gconf keys | 20:06 |
| satmd | oh? | 20:06 |
| satmd | timeless_pidgin: details on that one? how does it break? | 20:06 |
| timeless_pidgin | If your cert is password protected and you give the wrong password and cancel | 20:06 |
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| timeless_pidgin | You're hosed until you reboot. | 20:06 |
| satmd | mhm, slightly different from my "notcurrently valid" | 20:06 |
| satmd | +%20 | 20:07 |
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| timeless_pidgin | Lesson: don't give the wrong password, or don't password protect your certificate | 20:07 |
| timeless_pidgin | But basically iiuc what happens is that a daemon croaks and nothing respawns it | 20:07 |
| timeless_pidgin | And the ui shows its list of nothing | 20:07 |
| timeless_pidgin | I could be wrong, i'm just a user/victim | 20:08 |
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| timeless_pidgin | 25. If you have both - and _ on a hardware keyboard, ensure they're adjacent so that they can be used together to visually distinguish each other... Or provide a box view for _ so that it's clear on its own.... | 20:10 |
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| timeless_pidgin | 26. The call log should be accessible while a call is in progress. E.g. While talking to your manager you might want to say "yes, i just spoke to the client 13 minutes ago" (grr) | 20:11 |
| timeless_pidgin | That one constantly bites me :( | 20:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | 25 \o/ | 20:14 |
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| Jaffa | frals: Did you vote for the right right party? | 20:23 |
| * Jaffa noted last week when his Swedish colleagues didn't say "far right" but "right right". That amused me. | 20:23 | |
| timeless_pidgin | Did i miss a party? | 20:23 |
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| Jaffa | timeless_pidgin: Swedish election. | 20:23 |
| Jaffa | timeless_pidgin: Doesn't sound like a fun party to me. | 20:23 |
| timeless_pidgin | There's probably a right right right party, right? | 20:24 |
| * MohammadAG51 voted for bacon | 20:24 | |
| timeless_pidgin | Does that make it a left? | 20:24 |
| frals | Jaffa: heh, no.. "right right" sounds very weird translated to swedish so no idea how they came up with that | 20:24 |
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| timeless_pidgin | (two wrongs don't make a left, but three rights do!) | 20:24 |
| timeless_pidgin | Err | 20:24 |
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| timeless_pidgin | (two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!) | 20:25 |
| timeless_pidgin | Jaffa ever seen: | 20:26 |
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| kerio | BACON! | 20:26 |
| timeless_pidgin | Browser connection: Learn more ( ) Always use https (*) Don't always use https | 20:26 |
| kerio | timeless_pidgin: gmail, isn't it? | 20:27 |
| kerio | it's phrased poorly | 20:28 |
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| kerio | it should be "require HTTPS"/"don't require HTTPS" | 20:28 |
| timeless_pidgin | Ehm | 20:29 |
| timeless_pidgin | Pidgin supports dragging tabs out to make new windows on maemo :-! | 20:29 |
| timeless_pidgin | Yes | 20:29 |
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| timeless_pidgin | The wording is unusual but technically correct | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | bah | 20:29 |
| timeless_pidgin | Https is always used for log-in | 20:29 |
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| kerio | "force https" "don't force https" | 20:30 |
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| timeless_pidgin | Thus "https support is required in all clients" | 20:30 |
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| timeless_pidgin | Just not "always" ... | 20:30 |
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| timeless_pidgin | Grr, i cannot break the keyboard completion thing right now... | 20:32 |
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| mece | hmm I can't seem to connect to my wlan. Is there a way to check the wifi thing somehow from xterm and see what the problem is? | 20:39 |
| mece | on n900 that is | 20:39 |
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| sobczyk | iwlist scan | 20:41 |
| sobczyk | should show available networks | 20:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer | dammit, recaller is notifying me about some recording in progress since 19:44:00 (which happens to be since midnight local time), and I can't for the life of me not figure what it's recording or how to stop that nonsense. No files growing in default storing destination folder... >:-( | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I can't even spot the process in ps | 20:47 |
| steinex | reboot? | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | is this windoze? | 20:48 |
| ShadSEC2 | Docscrutinizer, my recaller has continued a recording after a call finished a couple of times... I didn't investigate it, I just rebooted IIRC | 20:48 |
| E0x | DocScrutinizer: reboot | 20:49 |
| steinex | DocScrutinizer: to be honest.. i even think its worse than windows. i must reboot every here and then. never had an uptime of more than 4 days | 20:49 |
| MohammadAG51 | haha | 20:50 |
| ShadSEC2 | btw, IIRC the ongoing recording happens in another directory and it is moved afterwards | 20:50 |
| MohammadAG51 | you don't have to reboot windows | 20:50 |
| MohammadAG51 | it does a fine job rebooting on its own | 20:50 |
| E0x | hehe | 20:50 |
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| steinex | well :) | 20:50 |
| mece | sobczyk, it finds the network fine. It just doesn't connect. | 20:51 |
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| E0x | BSOD is a feature then ? | 20:51 |
| mece | and gives the informative message "Unable to connect to the internet, try again?" | 20:51 |
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| MohammadAG51 | E0x, yeah, like cron jobs, with reboot on by default | 20:51 |
| E0x | now everything have sense | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer51 | my uptim usually exceeds 20d until reboot for update or other reason | 20:53 |
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| Anunakin | hi all! | 20:54 |
| MohammadAG51 | nice, advertising HD examples on an SD channel | 20:54 |
| E0x | or plastic theme change ( i really hate that and was the reason of uninstall it ) | 20:55 |
| lcuk | I have uptime of 12996 days. | 20:55 |
| E0x | 3 day here | 20:55 |
| lcuk | its nearly my 13th century day :D | 20:55 |
| javispedro | happy birthday! | 20:55 |
| E0x | heh | 20:55 |
| E0x | err happy power-up | 20:56 |
| E0x | or power-on | 20:56 |
| MohammadAG51 | LOL lcuk | 20:56 |
| * MohammadAG51 reboots lcuk | 20:57 | |
| lcuk | nooooooooooooo | 20:57 |
| lcuk | tomorrow i wouldv broken my uptime record | 20:57 |
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| MohammadAG51 | hmm | 20:57 |
| MohammadAG51 | why don't we have kernel panics | 20:57 |
| MohammadAG51 | eye keeps blinking till someone kicks you in the nuts | 20:57 |
| timeless_pidgin | You want panics? | 20:58 |
| E0x | running maemo with all the closed source is more scary , that is why not kernel panic it | 20:58 |
| E0x | :P | 20:58 |
| lcuk | grr | 20:58 |
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| * MohammadAG51 wonders what removing preinit does :p | 21:00 | |
| luke-jr | no boot till you flash ofc | 21:00 |
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| javispedro | releases PR1.3 | 21:00 |
| timeless_pidgin | Hrm, i think pidgin picked black on black for someone | 21:00 |
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| vnepo | hello | 21:01 |
| MohammadAG51 | someone who likes ctrl+a'ing logs | 21:01 |
| vnepo | any news on pr 1.3 for n900? | 21:01 |
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| luke-jr | vnepo: no such thing | 21:02 |
| MohammadAG51 | yeah, it exists | 21:02 |
| MohammadAG51 | stfu it exists :P | 21:02 |
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| javispedro | just remove preinit (talk about good timing) | 21:02 |
| vnepo | lol | 21:02 |
| luke-jr | no, that's PR1.4 | 21:02 |
| MohammadAG51 | I've seen it | 21:02 |
| vnepo | where? | 21:02 |
| luke-jr | they skipped 1.3 | 21:02 |
| vnepo | really? | 21:03 |
| vnepo | why? | 21:03 |
| luke-jr | just to make it harder for idiots to find | 21:03 |
| MohammadAG51 | LOL | 21:03 |
| vnepo | hmmm | 21:03 |
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| javispedro | hmpf. telepathy+talk.google.com has been disconnecting randomly here for an entire week already | 21:07 |
| MohammadAG51 | same on empathy on my pc | 21:08 |
| javispedro | and on my N900 :P | 21:08 |
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| RST38h | moo javispedro | 21:10 |
| javispedro | mooo | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~pr1.3 | 21:11 |
| infobot | [pr1.3] a ban'able subject now..... | 21:11 |
| * DocScrutinizer kickbans javispedro | 21:12 | |
| MohammadAG51 | ~pr1.4 | 21:12 |
| kerio | moo | 21:12 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer: i'm pretty sure you have to use /kick and /ban | 21:12 |
| MohammadAG51 | ~pr1.2 | 21:13 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, pr1.2 is available since early Tuesday morning. More information at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/05/25/nokia-n900-software-update-release-1-2/ -- see ~flashing for how to update | 21:13 |
| * javispedro wonders if DocScrutinizer ever dropped pr1.2 from the bannable subjects list | 21:13 | |
| kerio | as two separate commands | 21:13 |
| mece | grr. where is syslog on this thing? | 21:13 |
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| javispedro | there you go, yet another talk.google.com disconnection. | 21:13 |
| MohammadAG51 | apt-get install sysklogd | 21:13 |
| * MohammadAG51 hates how telepathy rapes the cpu | 21:13 | |
| lcuk | javispedro, pr1.2 brought us pics from the community written on boobs i believe | 21:13 |
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| lcuk | MohammadAG51, whats your telepathy beef? and have you got specific situations? | 21:14 |
| javispedro | oh, I didn't know! ;P | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | kerio: my clients know to kickban | 21:14 |
| lcuk | i could find them, they were amusing | 21:14 |
| MohammadAG51 | lcuk, multiple disconnects cause a huge cpu load | 21:14 |
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| MohammadAG51 | telepathy loads the cpu while signing in | 21:15 |
| lcuk | and you know specifically its telepathy how | 21:15 |
| MohammadAG51 | some plugins insist on signing in instead of giving up, ovi is one | 21:15 |
| MohammadAG51 | Unable to connect to one or more accounts is one way | 21:15 |
| MohammadAG51 | then the green ball flashes | 21:16 |
| javispedro | then you die. | 21:16 |
| MohammadAG51 | and cpu load rises | 21:16 |
| lcuk | ok MohammadAG51 so its when you have specific additional accounts? | 21:16 |
| timeless_pidgin | 27. When implementing "forward" in an email client, do not both add an inline header and insert quotation marks. If someone wanted to use quotation marks, they'd hit reply (modest=stupid) | 21:17 |
| MohammadAG51 | text chat on skype (skyhost) also rapes it | 21:17 |
| lcuk | javispedro, NSFW POTENTIALLY DO NOT CLICK IF PEOPLE WEARING BRAS IS NOT WANTED http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1699/releasep.jpg | 21:17 |
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| MohammadAG51 | you mention nsfw and crashanddie pops in | 21:18 |
| kerio | yay boobs | 21:18 |
| javispedro | i wonder if something nsfw is safe for uni | 21:18 |
| MohammadAG51 | lcuk, wearning or not wearing? | 21:18 |
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| TiagoTiago | hello | 21:19 |
| TiagoTiago | quick question | 21:19 |
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| timeless_pidgin | 28. Keyboard completion of words (e.g. Maemo) compose with one punctuation mark (e.g. ' " .) But should compose with multiple : wrong: 'maemo. ..', "Maemo' s", ' "maemo. " ' | 21:19 |
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| TiagoTiago | how do i set my N900 to use the DNS the NAT provides instead of openDNS it is using right now for some resason? | 21:19 |
| lcuk | liqbase.net/thread.42285.pg001.to.689.imagelist_proc.html | 21:20 |
| MohammadAG51 | javispedro, err, uni? | 21:20 |
| lcuk | the WHOLE mammoth pr1.2 chuck norris thread | 21:20 |
| lcuk | every image identified in it | 21:20 |
| lcuk | on one page | 21:20 |
| TiagoTiago | lol | 21:20 |
| lcuk | it is more of a stress test than timeless_pidgin's stress page | 21:20 |
| timeless_pidgin | Lcuk: wow | 21:21 |
| javispedro | thank god I never read that thread | 21:21 |
| javispedro | MohammadAG51: university | 21:21 |
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| lcuk | timeless_pidgin, i want that sort of image view available by default for threads | 21:22 |
| lcuk | and to click the image and go back into the thread :$ | 21:22 |
| mece | thanks MohammadAG51. | 21:22 |
| MohammadAG51 | yes yes, I know, i thought you were +30 or something :P | 21:22 |
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| lcuk | frals, theres an "i <3 trout" pic in there :P | 21:23 |
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| mece | Ok this wlan doesn't work. It does "send discover", "sending select for 192.168.0.7...", "received DHCP NAK", and then it goes back to "send discover"... | 21:24 |
| mece | any thoughts? | 21:24 |
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| mece | is it my wlan or my n900 i wonder. | 21:25 |
| luke-jr | or both | 21:26 |
| mece | doooh! Found my problem I think. My wii is hogging the ip that is reserved for my n900 | 21:26 |
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| mece | stupid wii. | 21:26 |
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| MohammadAG51 | mece hmm? i forgot what i said xD | 21:29 |
| mece | MohammadAG51 you said apt-get install sysklogd | 21:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | The OtterBox case is nice. | 21:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | kerio-ish. | 21:31 |
| kerio | huh? | 21:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | kerio, except it kills itself if you don't use it once every 10 minutes. | 21:31 |
| kerio | what did i do now? | 21:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Colloquy | 21:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | *kerio, -ish | 21:31 |
| kerio | what does that have to do with me? :o | 21:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | kerio, didn't you highlight me about it earlier? | 21:32 |
| kerio | i really did not | 21:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Did too, liar. | 21:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | I see it in the backscroll. | 21:33 |
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| TiagoTiago | hm, seems pc-conectivity manager has thing for OpenDNS..... | 21:44 |
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| nox- | moin | 21:48 |
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| TiagoTiago | anyway, 8mve figured what file to edit, cya | 21:49 |
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| kwtm | GeneralAntilles: random comment from lurker: agree that OtterBox case is nice (just got one). Okay, fading into background again. :) | 22:03 |
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| GAN900 | Muahaha | 22:14 |
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| RST38h | ...apparently convinced that the opossums would eat all of the rats in the borough and then conveniently die of starvation... | 22:26 |
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| RST38h | ...opossums have not only failed to eliminate the rat epidemic from New York City, but they have thrived, turning into a sharp-toothed, foul-odored epidemic of their own... | 22:27 |
| nox- | oh dear... | 22:28 |
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| zokier | seriously, did they really do that mistake in the 21th century? | 22:31 |
| * nox- only knows that oz ppl have possums, maybe they should have asked there first :) | 22:32 | |
| nox- | s/have/hate/ | 22:32 |
| timeless_pidgin | Heh | 22:33 |
| wmarone | time for the gorillas... | 22:33 |
| steinex | hey nox- :) | 22:33 |
| * wmarone punts modest, why are you not checking every 5 minutes for messages like you should be?! | 22:33 | |
| nox- | moin steinex | 22:34 |
| nox- | :) | 22:34 |
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| * RST38h thinks it is time to introduce NYC to larger wildlife | 22:37 | |
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| GAN900 | There's nothing wrong with opossums | 22:40 |
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| GAN900 | The America's only marsupial gets a bad rap | 22:40 |
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| GAN900 | They don't even carry rabies | 22:41 |
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| RST38h | They are cute too | 22:47 |
| * RST38h amusedly watches the flamewar started by Arkenoi, with participation by some Nokia PR girl | 22:49 | |
| Stskeeps | what flamewar? | 22:49 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:49 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: there is a video of Nokia employee showing off N8 at the Nokia World, with the poor device first stuttering and then hanging, on camera | 22:50 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, she then went to do the same thing on the X3 touch and type, and it kept up perfectly | 22:50 |
| lcuk | shes an SMS girlie | 22:50 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Arkenoi posted it to his blog with the comment along the lines of "Just kill it already!" | 22:50 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Well, N-series are never supposed to work, they are for showing off :) | 22:51 |
| lcuk | shut up | 22:51 |
| lcuk | she used her nokia as she was used to | 22:52 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: You can imagine the consequences | 22:52 |
| RST38h | lcuk: I.e. she tried dialing a phone number and N8 froze | 22:52 |
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| lcuk | i saw the videos | 22:52 |
| lcuk | the blue nails girlie? | 22:52 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: I am totally cool about it. Freezing when dialing a phone number is a feature. | 22:52 |
| RST38h | lcuk: yea | 22:52 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, same woman, x3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVJ552BNeKY watching her use that is similar to how I see tracy hitting her Nokia, fingers are almost a blur but it works | 22:54 |
| ShadowJK | where's the blue nails N8 video? | 22:55 |
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| RST38h | Stskeeps: Disturbing thing is, there are no Nokia supporters in sight in that thread, except maybe for that poor lone Nokia PR girl trying and failing to spin things in desirable way. | 22:55 |
| ShadowJK | that's kinda sad, how much slower it's to reach for the TS than knackering away at the keypad :-) | 22:56 |
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| lcuk | ShadowJK, the touch and type stuff is really cool | 22:56 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Notice, I do not blame the blue-nailed woman, she is just doing her thing =) | 22:56 |
| lcuk | for dedicated one handed mobile use its awesome | 22:56 |
| Carneque | Hey all, I downloaded this text adventure game Gargoyle, anyone know what directory that downloads to? It's not in the details of the game. | 22:56 |
| lcuk | RST38h, sure | 22:57 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Oh, it is way better for one handed use than N900 | 22:57 |
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| ShadowJK | my car has cruise control, I don't need one-handed phone anymore | 22:58 |
| ShadowJK | ;) | 22:58 |
| RST38h | lcuk: When it works, that is. And you will still badly miss the unified messaging, web browser, and sshd =) | 22:58 |
| lcuk | RST38h, of course :) just pointing out where it excels | 22:58 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: BTW, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMep7JIDzgE&NR=1 | 22:59 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: E70 replacement. Looks really slow though. | 22:59 |
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| ShadowJK | Looks more like a.. symbian n900 | 23:00 |
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| RST38h | true :) | 23:00 |
| RST38h | Symbian N9 rather | 23:01 |
| ShadowJK | .. or a N97 with fixed firmware. I bet the N97 owners are overjoyed | 23:01 |
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| RST38h | N97 ownershave been overjoyed for quite a whilenow... | 23:01 |
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| RST38h | [N] for [N]on-working (considering that N97's cheaper brother 5800 is quite a usable little handset) | 23:02 |
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| ShadowJK | the 200E TS symbians look quite usable from what I've seen | 23:03 |
| ShadowJK | as far as symbian can be usable | 23:03 |
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| RST38h | lcuk is right, the one-handed operation thing is a big deal | 23:04 |
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| * ShadowJK finds the N8 blue nails girl video | 23:06 | |
| ShadowJK | ah... how "intuitive" and "user-friendly" touchscreens and multitouch are indeed :) | 23:06 |
| ShadowJK | oh it missed a swipe for a scroll and tap | 23:07 |
| * RST38h hopes these all can be switched off | 23:07 | |
| ShadowJK | bwahah | 23:07 |
| ShadowJK | RST38h, "lol" | 23:08 |
| ShadowJK | In order to not confuse users, all other methods of zooming have been killed | 23:08 |
| ShadowJK | I bet | 23:08 |
| ShadowJK | like, scrolling on N900 | 23:08 |
| * RST38h still cannot understand the logic of that guy who killed scrollbars in Maemo5 | 23:09 | |
| kwtm | "my car has cruise control, I don't need one-handed phone anymore" --ShadowJK. | 23:09 |
| * kwtm imagines ShadowJK desperately typing into the N900, "Turn left! Turn left! Dammit, the bluetooth connection between my steering wheel and my N900 is flaky!" | 23:09 | |
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| ShadowJK | man, that girl has cut her nails and the capacitive screen is still not picking up her taps... or then the OS is playing dead | 23:10 |
| ShadowJK | hard to tell :-) | 23:10 |
| kwtm | RST38h: Wait, what? There *used to be* scrollbars in Maemo and someone decided to remove them? Sorry, I thought Maemo had always been this hard to use. | 23:10 |
| kwtm | ShadowJK: It's an optical touchscreen. It's confused by the colour blue. :) | 23:10 |
| * RST38h sighs silently | 23:10 | |
| lcuk | don't lie RST38h, you smirked at that joke as much as I did | 23:11 |
| ShadowJK | if kwtm was joking about the scrollbars I missed it :) | 23:11 |
| RST38h | lcuk: the problem is,it is not a joke... | 23:12 |
| lcuk | i was thinking the touchscreen optics ;) | 23:12 |
| kwtm | I wasn't joking. I still don't know how to get to the bottom of my contact list. | 23:12 |
| RST38h | kwtm: type Z! | 23:12 |
| ShadowJK | Captain Z! | 23:12 |
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| lcuk | kwtm, just type | 23:12 |
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| RST38h | or use the portraitmodecontact list in the phone app | 23:12 |
| ShadowJK | kwtm, there was also a D-pad that scrolled in most things when held in.. | 23:13 |
| lcuk | and not type | 23:13 |
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| ShadowJK | but now we don't even have up/down cursor keys on half (or more) of the units | 23:13 |
| ShadowJK | :) | 23:13 |
| * ShadowJK has almost figured out how to activate that scroll-faster mode with the kinetic swipe to scroll thing.. | 23:13 | |
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| RST38h | just scratch the screen as if you were a cat with rabies | 23:14 |
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| ShadowJK | a one-clawed cat with rabies | 23:14 |
| ShadowJK | one pawed one clawed | 23:14 |
| RST38h | ah you can use all your fingers on both hands | 23:15 |
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| * RST38h does that, in the HAM application list =) | 23:15 | |
| kwtm | Hmm, typing Z seems to work. What about scrolllists which are not indexed by alphabetical or otherwise cannot be jumped to by typing? Like the program launcher or the call history? | 23:15 |
| RST38h | they all are since pr1.2 | 23:15 |
| RST38h | the call history will probably get selected by caller name | 23:16 |
| kwtm | ShadowJK: Hmm, it seems to work too --I've just discovered that. | 23:16 |
| kwtm | Wow, you learn new things every day. | 23:16 |
| ShadowJK | kwtm, rabies cat method? | 23:16 |
| kwtm | ShadowJK: Yes, rabid cat. | 23:17 |
| ShadowJK | if only it worked in notes | 23:17 |
| ShadowJK | oh but i guess that one has a scrollbar | 23:17 |
| * kwtm imagines self showing off to others: "My GeekPhone is far superior to your lowly iPhone! This is how I scroll!" (index and middle finger running on the N900 screen for about 20 paces) | 23:17 | |
| kwtm | RST38h: You're right, call history can be filtered. What about app launcher? | 23:18 |
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| * kwtm is still sore about N900 Contact app importing only 1000 contacts AT A TIME. (If it's capable of STORING more contacts, why can't they be IMPORTED all in one go??) | 23:19 | |
| ShadowJK | Guy at work with 5800: "This is how I scroll:.. Oh wtf what hte hell is that, look!" - "Huh?! What" - *5800 guy steals a pen and starts trying to hit the tiny scrollbars on the screen* | 23:19 |
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| RST38h | ShadowJK: easier to hit them with a thumb | 23:20 |
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| RST38h | 5800 is actually better at finger scrolling than n900, dunno why | 23:20 |
| SpeedEvil | 5800 users? | 23:20 |
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| ShadowJK | RST38h, I've always seen him use a pen for the scrollbars and nothing else :) | 23:21 |
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| ShadowJK | like, it's the only thing he uses a pen for | 23:21 |
| smhar | anyone here using DreamRemote with dm7000? | 23:22 |
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| haltdef | couldn't make that do anything with my vu+ duo | 23:24 |
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| fredrin | How can I change what kernel that boots? | 23:31 |
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| jacekowski | with flasher | 23:35 |
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| SpeedEvil | Random. Does anyone with a clue on slashdot know if it's possibel to get s list of posts you posrted as anonymous? | 23:36 |
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| fredrin | jacekowski, found it in the wiki | 23:37 |
| fredrin | http://wiki.maemo.org/Kernel_Power#Verification_of_proper_installation | 23:37 |
| fredrin | :D | 23:37 |
| RST38h | sleep-time | 23:37 |
| fredrin | apt-get install kernel-power-bootimg | 23:37 |
| fredrin | apt-get install --reinstall multiboot-kernel-power | 23:37 |
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| fredrin | going to make my n900 fly with swappiness 30, new transition.ini and OC | 23:38 |
| fredrin | but not sure which one of Where DEFAUL > LV > ULV > XLV > IDEAL. i will use | 23:38 |
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| jacekowski | heh | 23:42 |
| jacekowski | another OC luser | 23:42 |
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| fredrin | how do i make the n900 stop updating software? or change the time it does so | 23:51 |
| smhar | finally a -semi- advanced search for the contacts in maemo, a custom ring tones for contacts, we only need a way to create 'groups' and contact will be a bit more usable :-) | 23:52 |
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