IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-08-27

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mgedmin	admittedly I was talking about the combination (apt-get + dpkg) and hoping meego's use of zypper (?) + rpm might be an improvement in at least one respect	00:00
MNZ	tobis87, you should try LFS :D it's quite a bit of fun to install (and maintain) a working copy of LFS	00:00
mgedmin	iirc writing an rpm .spec file was also much easier than writing debian/*	00:00
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MNZ	mgedmin, that, I will give you. debian/* is quite hellish :/	00:01
tobis87	MNZ: I had enough experience with Gentoo. It's nice to have the newest stuff. But really if you are able to use dpkg-buildpackage, patch and so on, it's not that hard to backport debian packages to older releases.	00:02
tobis87	Eventually your base system will be from the stone-age... But well, I'm not in the mood of updating my system every year.	00:03
tobis87	I mean dist-upgrade	00:03
PerfDave	TBH the problem is less with the packaging format, and more with the QA process for the distro. IMHO Debian has it best, but there are apt-based distributions which are worse than some rpm-based ones.	00:03
mgedmin	tobis87, want to give a try and backport collectd to Ubuntu 6.06/	00:03
mgedmin	?	00:03
* mgedmin tried, gave up		00:03
tobis87	mgedmin: Nah, I've recently backported Firefox 3.6.8 to Ubuntu 7.10	00:04
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tobis87	I hate that I wasn't able to backport Dolphin (The new GameCube, Wii emulator)	00:08
crashanddie	tobis87: i think the whole point about gentoo was that with a simple write-once-use-many ebuild files, anyone could deploy a specific version of a package	00:09
crashanddie	tobis87: whereas with debian, you actually need to build the package, then transfer the binary	00:09
rd	Does anybody know if I can use an external bluetooth GPS mouse instead of the built-in GPS receiver in the N900?	00:09
kerio	gps mouse?	00:10
kerio	:o	00:10
GAN900	crashanddie, no.	00:10
tobis87	mgedmin: Too much work, really... But somehow sad that you always have to do the whole configuration again, while everything works... for new features and security.	00:10
kerio	i think you can	00:10
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GAN900	rd, yes.	00:10
rd	how to I tell the N900 to use the external mouse?	00:10
crashanddie	GAN900: well, the point about their ebuild files, not "the whole point of gentoo", obviously	00:11
mgedmin	rd, it is hardcoded the way out in some respects (e.g. the X server is hacked so that it will never display a mouse cursor), iirc	00:11
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rd	I am not talking about a mouse, but a GPS receiver (often called GPS mouse, not sure why, maybe because of the form factor?)	00:12
tobis87	crashanddie: Have you tried to rebuild world? I've failed so often, it is just unstable... I don't like if you have to hunt for patches and do reverse-dependencies.	00:12
crashanddie	yeah, rebuild world was a bitch	00:13
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crashanddie	I don't think I ever managed to go through a single one without failure	00:13
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crashanddie	or without removing dozens of commented lines in a poorly documented portage file	00:13
johnsq	tobis87: sorry, but gentoo unstable works since years perfect for me	00:13
PerfDave	Yay, distro wars, the most interesting thing on IRC :)	00:14
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kerio	gentoo stage1 > else	00:14
johnsq	tobis87: but i don't use kde + gnome	00:14
crashanddie	ok, I'll change the subject	00:14
tobis87	depends, the first months it is all fancy to rebuild programs from scratch, cflags and all this stuff.... But really, I now want it stable...	00:14
kerio	-O8	00:15
crashanddie	African debt: 200-something billion dollars	00:15
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crashanddie	Planned cost of the Iraq war: 60 billion	00:15
tobis87	kerio: -ffast-math -funroll and all this stuff	00:15
crashanddie	Actual cost? 3000 billion.	00:15
rd	found it: through settings, location I can add an external GPS receiver.	00:15
mgedmin	tobis87, Settings -> Location -> Pair new device?	00:15
kerio	--get-something-done	00:16
GAN900	crashanddie, Quake Live. Keep up. :P	00:16
mgedmin	sorry, that was to rd	00:16
mgedmin	I need better tools to help me chat on irc	00:16
crashanddie	GAN900: that was so almost 9 hours ago	00:16
rd	mgedmin, yes that works, thank you.	00:16
mgedmin	xchat doesn't even try to help untangle conversations	00:16
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tobis87	funniest thing was mfpmath=sse,387	00:17
tobis87	mgedmin: Sorry?	00:17
johnsq	mgedmin: turn on brain	00:17
mgedmin	tobis87, nick miscompletion/brain fart, please ignore	00:17
mgedmin	johnsq, brain is busy with other things	00:17
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johnsq	cmake didn't like qemu	00:18
mgedmin	actually, 20% of the brain is busy with other things; the remaining 80% seems to be missing	00:19
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mgedmin	thank god for unit tests	00:20
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GAN900	crashanddie, asynchronous communications. Meh. :P	00:21
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crashanddie	GAN900: try email	00:21
crashanddie	GAN900: watch this: http://www.ted.com/talks/david_mccandless_the_beauty_of_data_visualization.html	00:21
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Gadgetoid_n900	eeep my eyes!	00:22
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Gadgetoid_n900	Game gripper is wtfawesome!	00:24
ToJa92	[Gadgetoid_n900]: You got it today?	00:25
Gadgetoid_n900	got it last week, just got an n900 to test it with	00:25
ToJa92	oh	00:26
ToJa92	It thought it was pretty good but it should have been a little bit longer	00:26
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kerio	ToJa92: that's what she said	00:27
Gadgetoid_n900	its a wee bit rough around the edges, and the power hole doesnt quite line up	00:27
kerio	Gadgetoid_n900: she also said that	00:27
ToJa92	[kerio]: Yeah I guess, lol	00:27
Gadgetoid_n900	but control wise- its really quite good	00:27
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jacktheripper	Gadgetoid_n900: how does it connect to the phone ?	00:27
ToJa92	only thing I don't think is perfect is the dpad	00:27
ToJa92	[jacktheripper]: You slide it on over the keyboard	00:28
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jacktheripper	lol pretty smart	00:28
ToJa92	yeah, it doesn't require any batteries either	00:28
ToJa92	well apart from the fact that the n900 need battery	00:28
Gadgetoid_n900	its not the best situation for creating a great d-pad, but theres still worse	00:29
Gadgetoid_n900	its better than the xbox dpad anyway	00:29
kerio	what keys does it use for the dpad?	00:29
kerio	wadx?	00:30
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ToJa92	wasd	00:30
ToJa92	and some other keys	00:30
ToJa92	err	00:30
ToJa92	wasd for the dpad.	00:30
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kerio	wasd?	00:30
kerio	it's decentered :\|	00:31
ToJa92	sorry for confusing you, waxd	00:31
kerio	oh, i see	00:31
kerio	nice	00:31
kerio	do all key combos work?	00:31
kerio	diagonals, buttons+direction, button+diagonal	00:31
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ToJa92	I think it does but it's tricky to do diagonals	00:31
ToJa92	button + button + direction works	00:32
kerio	neat	00:32
ToJa92	so diagonal + button should work	00:32
kerio	meh, the n900's keyboard is weird	00:32
ToJa92	but I don't think diagonal + button + button works	00:32
Gadgetoid_n900	it uses w a d x, t u b m, l p up left	00:34
Gadgetoid_n900	backlight kinda shines through the buttons too	00:35
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ToJa92	it shines through as long as the buttons are semi-opaque	00:37
ToJa92	I have some black ones and they dont shine through	00:37
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crashanddie	GAN900: as any well respected geek, you've heard of a 3D printer?	00:47
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crashanddie	DocScrutinizer51, MohammadAG: you guys too, I take it.	00:47
crashanddie	I'm actually thinking about buying one	00:47
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crashanddie	they're only like $750	00:48
MohammadAG	o_O	00:48
MohammadAG	gimme gimme gimme	00:48
MohammadAG	how much is the "ink" though?	00:48
crashanddie	$30 per kilo	00:49
GAN900	crashanddie, yes.	00:49
GAN900	crashanddie, to what end?	00:49
crashanddie	i dunno	00:49
crashanddie	just fun	00:49
crashanddie	http://www.babelgum.com/4020782	00:50
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GAN900	Buy a lens instead	00:51
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crashanddie	~ping	00:54
infobot	~pong	00:54
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kerio	GAN900: lol	01:00
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MNZ	Anyone know if SDL can use the n900's accelerometer for input?	01:04
PerfDave	The TuxRacer / SuperTux package for N900 seems to work with tilting input..	01:04
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PolarFox	and there is that little program somewhere that translates accelerometer inputs to joystick movements..	01:14
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SkyscraperN900	hi all	01:20
SkyscraperN900	mohammadag51 any news about ubuntu?	01:20
SkyscraperN900	Mohammadag	01:20
MohammadAG	back in jerusalem, so yes, should be up by tomorrow	01:20
SkyscraperN900	yeeah	01:21
SkyscraperN900	nice to hear!	01:21
SkyscraperN900	already uploading?	01:21
MohammadAG	starting in a bit, new image size should be about 500 megs or so	01:21
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SkyscraperN900	hm. is the server fast?	01:22
MohammadAG	yeah	01:22
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SkyscraperN900	hm. i'll get up at 6:45 and i'll drive away 7:15... dont think that my n900 can leech that fast xD (only 1600bkps downstream)	01:23
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SkyscraperN900	hm. so i'll leech it next night i think... have to go to sleep now. thank you for that great news. gn8	01:26
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mgedmin	jacktheripper, I can reproduce the same sudo apt-get dist-upgrade error you saw	02:13
mgedmin	I suspect it's libsdl-mixer1.2 from extras	02:13
mgedmin	ah, no	02:14
mgedmin	it's python-pygame	02:14
mgedmin	hm, no, I can upgrade that one too	02:15
mgedmin	weird	02:15
mgedmin	there were three packages kept back: libsdl-mixer1.2, libsdl-ttf2.0-0 and python-pygame	02:16
mgedmin	the first can be upgraded, but the upgrade removes mp-fremantle-generic-pr (and I don't want that)	02:16
mgedmin	the second can be upgraded with some hiccoughing	02:16
mgedmin	and the third just upgraded without any problems -- maybe it was kept back because of libsdl-ttf2.0-0?	02:17
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jacktheripper	hmmm. The error I get is about upstart	02:22
jacktheripper	it depends on a lower version of busybox, and it still won't install	02:23
jacktheripper	do you get the same thing ?	02:23
MohammadAG	you apt-get dist-upgraded	02:23
MohammadAG	I get that error too (upstart)	02:23
jacktheripper	yes, I did	02:24
MohammadAG	you're not supposed to ;)	02:24
jacktheripper	there's no other way to install hildon-desktop, right ?	02:24
MohammadAG	i told you to wait	02:24
MohammadAG	and no, not without removing the metapackage	02:24
MohammadAG	remote the SSU line, it's useless as I disabled the repo	02:24
jacktheripper	ok	02:24
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bionet	I was wondering about power settings in maemo	02:54
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bionet	is there any one out there?	03:11
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Macer	crap	03:17
Macer	now flash is outdated in m5	03:17
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DocScrutinizer	~xyawn	03:32
infobot	it has been said that xyawn is big coffee	03:32
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	03:32
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MNZ	Is there a publicly available repo that holds the maemo kernel?	03:42
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babsher	i think that most of the kernel comes from the linux git repo	03:45
MNZ	I know, but I want the maemo additions and patches all in one place.	03:45
babsher	there is some stuff in the developer guide about the kernel	03:47
babsher	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Kernel_and_Debugging_Guide/Maemo_Kernel_Guide	03:48
babsher	they talk about compiling the kernel there	03:48
MNZ	babsher, ooh thanks! shoulda looked there...	03:48
babsher	ay	03:48
babsher	do you know about the power interface in maemo	03:48
MNZ	what do you mean by power interfaces exactly?	03:49
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babsher	well i have been looking at ways to save power by underclocking	03:49
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babsher	and turning things off	03:50
babsher	i only need the bluetooth but I would like to use it for about 10 hours	03:50
MNZ	well, there are some guides on saving battery and here's one I used http://wiki.maemo.org/How_To_Make_Your_Battery_Last_Longer	03:50
babsher	ya i looked at that. hmmm	03:51
babsher	i am installing the kernel-power module now	03:51
DocScrutinizer	there's really not much use in underclocking	03:52
DocScrutinizer	at least when your apps are written sanely	03:52
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption#Software	03:53
MNZ	As I understand it, the kernel is a tickless one, so yeah...	03:53
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babsher	well all iam doing is recording data off the bluetooth chip	03:59
babsher	i dont really care about gui or wifi	04:00
DocScrutinizer	>>Many users find that they have about 50% battery left after a full day's worth of usage if they only use 3G when really needed (and don't have the magnetic clasp problem).<<	04:00
DocScrutinizer	BT is cheap	04:00
babsher	well that is good to know	04:00
DocScrutinizer	so what? 10h? should be absolutely no problem	04:00
babsher	sweet. even without underclocking	04:00
DocScrutinizer	esp without underclocking. Rush to idle is the motd	04:01
babsher	ic	04:02
babsher	but I am going to be using the blue tooth continuously	04:02
root___	I have a question for anyone who's willing to help. All of my searches on the maemo forums, the wiki, and google have led me to dead ends.	04:03
DocScrutinizer	hmm, then you might end up with CPU running @ 250 all the time. That's as good as it gets anyway, as you can't clock lower	04:03
root___	Is it possible to mount the eMMC over usb without a working boot?	04:03
DocScrutinizer	nope	04:03
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root___	DocScrutinizer: was that for me?	04:04
DocScrutinizer	exporting of filesystems is done by a system daemon	04:04
DocScrutinizer	no system -> no exported filesystems	04:05
DocScrutinizer	hell, no filesystems at all :-P	04:05
root___	sure. what then are the two devices that are attached in /dev?	04:05
DocScrutinizer	???	04:06
root___	... on a linux system. when I mount the n900, dmesg turns up two storage devices. any attempts to mount them turns up 'no medium found'	04:07
DocScrutinizer	I for sure have a lot more than two devices in /dev	04:08
root___	two new	04:08
babsher	Doc. So what you are saying is that the kernel will scale the clock without me interfering	04:08
DocScrutinizer	basexactly	04:08
DocScrutinizer	babsher: ^^	04:08
DocScrutinizer	root___: sorry, can't find my crystal ball. You'd need to disclose a bit more detail, so anybody can answer your question. E.G. the most detailed 2 lines from dmesg	04:10
root___	lines are:	04:10
babsher	Doc. Thanks for the help!	04:10
DocScrutinizer	yw	04:11
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root___	scsi 5:0:0:0: Direct-Access Nokia N900 031 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2	04:11
root___	and a similar one with 5:0:0:1:	04:11
root___	followed by:	04:11
root___	sd 5:0:0:0: [sda] ...	04:12
root___	and sd 5:0:0:1: [sdb] ...	04:12
DocScrutinizer	fine, your system mounted two new storage devices, called sda and sdb	04:12
DocScrutinizer	probably eMMC and uSD	04:13
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root___	I agree. However, I'm trying to figure out if I can then mount those as readable filesystems	04:14
root___	They are recognized devices, but not mounted	04:14
DocScrutinizer	that might be related to automounter failing to corerectly detect them	04:15
DocScrutinizer	there should be sda1 and sdb1 somewhere in your dev/	04:15
root___	nope. that's part of the problem	04:16
DocScrutinizer	mount -t auto /dev/sda /mnt/eMMC_fatfloppy	04:18
root___	already tried. returned 'must specify the file type'	04:19
DocScrutinizer	root___: please use pastebin to show the the full output generated during plugin, of dmesg or better `tail -f /var/log/messages` or whatever it's called on your system	04:20
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root___	[765804.276023] usb 1-2: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 19	04:21
root___	[765804.493565] usb 1-2: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice	04:21
root___	[765804.544439] usb 1-2: New USB device found, idVendor=0421, idProduct=0105	04:21
root___	[765804.544450] usb 1-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=5	04:21
root___	[765804.544456] usb 1-2: Product: Nokia N900 (Update mode)	04:21
root___	[765804.544460] usb 1-2: Manufacturer: Nokia	04:21
root___	[765804.544464] usb 1-2: SerialNumber: 4D554D343931363834	04:22
root___	[767659.419454] usb 1-2: USB disconnect, address 19	04:22
root___	[767670.992155] usb 1-2: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 20	04:22
root___	[767671.125340] usb 1-2: configuration #1 chosen from 2 choices	04:22
root___	[767671.139911] scsi7 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage devices	04:22
root___	[767671.141496] usb-storage: device found at 20	04:22
root___	[767671.141503] usb-storage: waiting for device to settle before scanning	04:22
root___	[767671.141841] usb 1-2: New USB device found, idVendor=0421, idProduct=01c7	04:22
root___	[767671.141850] usb 1-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3	04:22
root___	[767671.141856] usb 1-2: Product: N900 (Storage Mode)	04:22
root___	[767671.141860] usb 1-2: Manufacturer: Nokia	04:22
root___	[767671.141864] usb 1-2: SerialNumber: 372041756775	04:22
root___	[767676.140380] usb-storage: device scan complete	04:22
root___	[767676.140974] scsi 7:0:0:0: Direct-Access Nokia N900 031 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2	04:22
root___	[767676.141567] scsi 7:0:0:1: Direct-Access Nokia N900 031 PQ: 0 ANSI: 2	04:22
root___	[767676.144303] sd 7:0:0:0: [sda] Attached SCSI removable disk	04:22
root___	[767676.148217] sd 7:0:0:1: [sdb] Attached SCSI removable disk	04:22
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root___	DocScrutinizer: and thank you for helping.	04:23
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DocScrutinizer	yuck	04:23
DocScrutinizer	~pastebin	04:23
infobot	[~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you should paste anything over 3 lines so you don't flood the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://bin.cakephp.org/ , http://asterisk.pastey.net/ , or install pastebinit with yum or aptitude.	04:24
root___	apologies. I will educate myself	04:24
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DocScrutinizer	anyway it looks quite ok, no idea if it should detect partitions ( like sda1), need to check as I've done this last time maybe 4 months ago	04:28
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asj	root___: if you mount them by hand does it work?	04:30
asj	(not -t auto)	04:31
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root___	asj: I haven't been able to determine what fs (or other method) to use	04:32
asj	this is an n900 right?	04:32
root___	yes	04:32
asj	vfat, check for partitions	04:32
asj	(as root fdisk -l)	04:33
e-yes	~lis302dl	04:33
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root___	fdisk -l only turns up the local drives, and trying 'fdisk -l /dev/sda' or 'sdb' doesn't return anythign	04:35
root___	s/gn/ng/	04:35
infobot	root___ meant: fdisk -l only turns up the local drives, and trying 'fdisk -l /dev/sda' or 'sdb' doesn't return anything	04:35
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DocScrutinizer	e-yes: ??	04:36
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DocScrutinizer	root___: try -t vfat	04:37
asj	usb is local	04:37
root___	also 'mount -t vfat ...' gives 'no medium found'	04:37
e-yes	DocScrutinizer, ??:)	04:37
asj	it should be sda1 I'm fairly sure no?	04:37
DocScrutinizer	that's the problem asj. He says there isn't	04:38
root___	there are no partitions listed for the sda and sdb devices	04:38
asj	DocScrutinizer: then I would say full stop, something is busted.	04:38
DocScrutinizer	yep	04:38
asj	either system is whacked, or n900 is broken. So, does the n900 boot/work have 27 gigs on /home/MyDocs?	04:39
root___	n900 shows 'nokia' boot screen, but no further.	04:40
DocScrutinizer	lol	04:40
root___	although--	04:40
DocScrutinizer	[2010-08-27 03:04:38] <DocScrutinizer> exporting of filesystems is done by a system daemon	04:41
DocScrutinizer	[2010-08-27 03:05:01] <DocScrutinizer> no system -> no exported filesystems	04:41
DocScrutinizer	what part of this was unclear?	04:41
root___	I got that.	04:41
root___	thanks	04:41
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root___	I was under the impression that we were continuing the conversation with the understanding that I was attemping to mount without a complete boot	04:42
root___	thanks for the help, and the time.	04:43
DocScrutinizer	your N900 system is borked. reflash!	04:43
root___	off to do so	04:43
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DocScrutinizer	e-yes: infobot does't know about lid302 :-P	04:45
DocScrutinizer	e-yes: nevertheless I do	04:45
DocScrutinizer	LIS302*	04:45
DocScrutinizer	e-yes: ECHAN?	04:46
DocScrutinizer	e-yes: ...as meego has a completely braindamaged lis3lv02d kernel driver, instead of the somewhat sane maemo borne lis302dl	04:47
e-yes	i'm not wondering how lis302 was implemented for n900. only one phone, no prob with non-standard interface. i wonder why they do it for meego in the same way (!dev/input)	04:47
e-yes	or meego intended only for n9?:)	04:48
asj	DocScrutinizer: jesus, must remember half the people out there are below average	04:48
* asj bangs his head into a wall		04:49
DocScrutinizer	lol	04:49
DocScrutinizer	e-yes: see my last line to you, above	04:49
DocScrutinizer	http://gitorious.org/nokia-n900-kernel/nokia-n900-kernel/blobs/master/drivers/hwmon/lis3lv02d.c#line47 is braindamaged joystick driver. Compare/diff to http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/drivers/i2c/chips/lis302dl.c	04:51
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DocScrutinizer	e-yes: /dev/input is a bit of... err, underfeatured, for LIS302	04:52
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DocScrutinizer	e-yes: you could use /dev/input_<lis302> if you're really interested in raw data from lis302 chip, at a rate of either 100 or 400 per second. Or you could have a lib that manages lis302 sysnodes/chip in a smart way, and have a dev/input device created by that lib, which only reports more filtered events, like e.g "up\|down\|left\|right\|front\|rear" only if the device changed main orientation	04:57
e-yes	didn't knew about lis3lv02d, my bad, i thought they going to use curent lis302dl with meego too	04:58
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DocScrutinizer	I hope they will consider doing that	04:58
DocScrutinizer	lis3lv02d looks to me like wiimote os similar crap	04:58
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DocScrutinizer	or*	04:59
e-yes	i have problems with current driver, reading coords in two processes (using dup	04:59
e-yes	ed descriptor) cause weird behaviors	04:59
DocScrutinizer	honestly, lis3lv02d is unusable for N900	05:00
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DocScrutinizer	e-yes: not to state the nokia lis302dl driver is really great. It as well has flaws: it doesn't put highpass to purpose (http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/drivers/i2c/chips/lis302dl.c#164) and so configures lis302 chip for one particular situation only, which is "flat on table, screen heading up" (http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/drivers/i2c/chips/lis302dl.c#187)	05:05
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e-yes	DocScrutinizer, btw, what you think about lis302 driver from OpenMoko?	05:07
DocScrutinizer	this concept obviously fails on as simple a changed situation as N900 placed on stand	05:08
DocScrutinizer	e-yes: I have to admit I never looked into it	05:08
DocScrutinizer	I suggested to devels same I did here: use highpass, set threshold for matching the smallest relative movement you want to get notice for. Then switch chip config from relative (with highpass) to absolute (hp disabled) for reading out absolute values for all three axis when you get IRQ indicating there's been a change large enough to matter	05:11
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e-yes	oh, i see my knowledge about lis302 is far behind yours	05:14
DocScrutinizer	iirc on OM they changed the device node from absolute to relative reporting some point in time. But that hadn't any impact on kernel driver still doing sort of polling (BAD!) from lis302 chip, and then just calculating the "relative" properties by comparing new x\|y\|z vlaue tuple to last one and only output the changed values - yuck	05:15
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DocScrutinizer	but maybe I'm totally wrong on that, and this was nly a dream I had 18 months ago	05:16
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DocScrutinizer	isn't it funny, when somebody complains about high CPU load or sluggishness, you really have to ask "have you placed your N900 on a really flat surface? screen pointing up?"	05:19
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rm_you	johnx: lol	05:37
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johnx	hey rm_you	05:41
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luke-jr	wtf Maemo	05:51
luke-jr	it just disconnected my call so it could switch from GPRS to 802.11	05:51
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DocScrutinizer51	wut? lol	05:58
DocScrutinizer51	luke-jr: could you reproduce/verify that? and then file a bug? :-D	05:59
ptmn_	OMCK	06:00
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DocScrutinizer51	luke-jr: wait. That wasn't a VoIP call?	06:04
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termana_moo	moo	06:54
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DocScrutinizer51	;-D	06:54
TermanaN900	:D	06:55
TermanaN900	DocScrutinizer, hello :P	06:55
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TermanaN900	Any reason why entering a chroot would slow the n900 down? Because thats what seems to happen	07:01
TermanaN900	(for me)	07:01
TermanaN900	and then i do some stuff with qemu in my chroot, and I need to restart because its so slow :P	07:01
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johnx	you're running qemu in a chroot on an N900 and wondering why it's slow?	07:06
TermanaN900	johnx, no, im wondering why after exiting the system stays sluggish	07:07
TermanaN900	exiting qemu*	07:07
johnx	run top before and after? look for interesting patterns in terms of memory usage?	07:09
microlith	entering a chroot?	07:11
microlith	memory usage	07:11
microlith	lolswappartition	07:11
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DocScrutinizer	TermanaN900: try joggling with a temporary swapfile, and swapoff; swapon - swapping swap ;-)	07:13
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girishr	anyone know how i can launch fennec on the command line on n900?	08:25
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girishr	finally	08:29
DocScrutinizer51	by typing fennec?	08:29
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girishr	the executable name is browser	08:30
girishr	browser <url> doesn't work	08:30
girishr	browser --url=<url> works	08:30
DocScrutinizer51	what's going to happen to processes with lots of swapped out memory pages, on swapoff? will they simply terminate with fatal non-catchable signal?	08:32
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DocScrutinizer51	~wake hackers	08:48
* infobot throws a barrel-full of ice water on hackers and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!"		08:48
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crashanddie	DocScrutinizer51: yo	08:55
DocScrutinizer2	crashanddie: yo	08:55
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer51: most likely, they'll segfault or have future malloc()'s die	08:56
DocScrutinizer2	future malloc()'s? the ones in the discarded memepages? :-P	08:56
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DocScrutinizer2	segfault sounds logical	08:58
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KnightStalker	Hey,I have a problem with Firefox Sync on Maemo,mm,I wonder if anyone can help me?	08:58
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DocScrutinizer2	~ask	08:59
infobot	Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic. Don't ask if you can ask a question first. Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them. Better questions more frequently yield better answers. We are all here voluntarily or against our will.	08:59
KnightStalker	So,For saving time,the question is actually that I do not have any problem with open tabs sync,but the bookmarks seems unsnced	08:59
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KnightStalker	And I know about that do not ask to ask,I just did it to get sure I am in right place and I mustn't stick to firefox support ways	09:00
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crashanddie	DocScrutinizer2: maybe this provides some insight: http://kerneltrap.org/Linux/Swapoff_Performance	09:00
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DocScrutinizer2	crashanddie: mille gracie	09:01
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crashanddie	KnightStalker: truth is, it's 8AM in mainland Europe, where most contributors are from, so it's really not noisey at the moment	09:02
toggles_w	too busy eating musli	09:02
Stskeeps	or drinking coffee	09:02
frals	mornin folks o/	09:02
toggles_w	Mmm.. Cafe	09:03
X-Fade	Ugh, coffee :)	09:03
toggles_w	thanks Stskeeps, i'm off to get an expresso	09:03
crashanddie	I would crack up if someone said he was taking a shower	09:03
Stskeeps	getting there..	09:04
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Stskeeps	:P	09:04
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X-Fade	Need a waterproof device first, but then it would be a nice option :)	09:05
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rmrfchik	is there any relible way to sync my google calendar.	09:10
* rmrfchik depressed		09:10
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thresh	use it wisely!	09:11
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rmrfchik	is there any relible way to sync my google calendar >>?<<	09:18
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crashanddie	rmrfchik: you idiot	09:19
luke-jr	rmrfchik: if you want Google junk, get Android?	09:19
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crashanddie	rmrfchik: why the heck do you think exchange is implemented on the device?	09:19
crashanddie	rmrfchik: the only thing that works are calendar and contacts, btw	09:20
toggles_w	rmrfchik: don't take it to heart, they haven't had their coffee	09:20
rmrfchik	crashanddie: you idiot. MfE doesn't work	09:20
rmrfchik	...after 2-3 weeks	09:20
rmrfchik	just stop working. need to recreate calendar.	09:20
luke-jr	blame Google	09:21
* luke-jr actually has 3 unsync'd calendars…		09:21
thresh	blerg. now appmanager doesnt show any catalogues.	09:22
thresh	oh finally, after 3 minutes it did.	09:22
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thresh	useless piece of junk.	09:23
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flux	appmanager gets really slow once you have many (non-default) repositories	09:37
MiXu-	Yup :/	09:38
flux	I guess it inherits that from the dpkg text-based database	09:38
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MiXu-	Faster Application Manager is a bit faster.	09:38
MiXu-	And at least it shows you what's happening behind the scenes	09:38
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DocScrutinizer	to whom it may concern (swapoff): http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/3/29/241	09:43
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Gadgetoid_n900	random	09:53
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DocScrutinizer	urandom	09:55
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DocScrutinizer	thresh: only 3 minutes? lightning fast :-P <envy>	09:58
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DocScrutinizer	COFFEE	10:00
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Stskeeps	http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/26/commodore-usa-announces-the-pc64-an-atom-powered-pc-in-a-replic/ <- that really is temptng	10:23
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crashanddie	rmrfchik: I've been using my calendar for months, never noticed anything dying after a few weeks	10:25
rmrfchik	lucky idiot	10:25
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crashanddie	well, you're an idiot for not specifying you tried it	10:26
crashanddie	"is there any way to synch google calendar aside from MfE which is broken for me"	10:27
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crashanddie	simples.	10:27
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rmrfchik	it's bad morning for you or it's you regular way to communicate?	10:27
crashanddie	pretty much regular, methinks	10:27
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Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: this might make you gag:	10:28
rmrfchik	ok, plz, ignore me.	10:28
Stskeeps	– Can I get source code for this driver?	10:28
Stskeeps	No, the Intel® Embedded Media and Graphics Driver (EMGD) was designed so that Intel graphics chipset customers would not need access to the source code.	10:28
crashanddie	Stskeeps: lmao	10:28
X-Fade	ORLY?	10:28
DocScrutinizer	muhahaha	10:28
crashanddie	rmrfchik: /ignore is a powerful tool, use it wisely ;)	10:29
Stskeeps	which is fucking ironic considering it's tied to a certain xorg	10:29
rmrfchik	crashanddie: you don't get it. please you ignore me.	10:29
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crashanddie	Stskeeps: that's just painful	10:29
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		10:30
*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo \| http://maemo.nokia.com/ \| Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council \| http://mxr.maemo.org/ \| http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| Free software mirror: http://espejo.freemoe.org/ \|\| "No, the Intel® Embedded Media and Graphics Driver (EMGD) was designed so that Intel graphics chipset customers would not need access to the source code.""		10:31
crashanddie	fail	10:31
DocScrutinizer	why?	10:31
DocScrutinizer	err, how?	10:31
*** ChanServ changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo \| http://maemo.nokia.com/ \| Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council \| http://mxr.maemo.org/ \| http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| Free software mirror: http://espejo.freemoe.org/ \| "No, the Intel® Embedded Media and Graphics Driver (EMGD) was designed so that Intel graphics chipset customers would not need access to the source code.""		10:32
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DocScrutinizer	hmm, chanserv topicadd, nice... but clumsy, when you got a decent textedit window to manage the topic	10:34
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crashanddie	actually is was more for the double pipe and double spaces	10:35
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crashanddie	and you can also simply replace the whole topic	10:35
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DocScrutinizer	rmrfchik: just get a coffee, ignore crashanddie's rude manners, and smile :-))	10:35
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rmrfchik	i did already :)	10:36
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crashanddie	good, finally one who gets it	10:36
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DocScrutinizer	lol	10:36
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DocScrutinizer	tekojo: problems?	10:37
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DocScrutinizer	tekojo: morning :-)	10:40
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DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: (double pipe and spaces) this was actually intetional, to separate it from the more serious parts of topic	10:42
crashanddie	oh	10:42
crashanddie	my bad then, apologies	10:42
DocScrutinizer	np, nm	10:42
DocScrutinizer	forgot about it spoiling the "topic auto tools"	10:43
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DocScrutinizer	~help topic	10:46
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		10:51
*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ \| http://maemo.nokia.com/ \| Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council \| http://mxr.maemo.org/ \| http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| Free software mirror: http://espejo.freemoe.org/ \| "No, the Intel® Embedded Media and Graphics Driver (EMGD) was designed so that Intel graphics chipset customers would not need access to the source cod"		10:51
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crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: ?	10:52
Stskeeps	got cut off	10:52
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DocScrutinizer	eew	10:52
*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ \| http://maemo.nokia.com/ \| Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council \| http://mxr.maemo.org/ \| http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| Free software mirror: http://espejo.freemoe.org/ \| "The Intel® Embedded Media and Graphics Driver (EMGD) was designed so that Intel graphics chipset customers would not need access to the source code.""		10:53
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Dassu	dd	10:54
TermanaN900	Everyone see that the OpenSolaris Governing Board resigned? Guess even they didnt have any confidence in Oracle's plans	10:54
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Stskeeps	TermanaN900: their hand was kinda forced it looks like	10:56
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TermanaN900	Stskeeps, maybe / probably. I've only read Oracle's plans and then the last meeting agenda. I dont blame them even if they werent forced to	10:58
DocScrutinizer	http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ I read >>TV-Out with ... WLAN/UPnP<< - anybody tried this? (no device here that could do video streaming over WLAN, so no ay to test)	10:59
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Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: it should be possible to a dlna television i guess	11:00
crashanddie	TermanaN900: opensolaris was dead fish anyway	11:00
crashanddie	TermanaN900: opensolaris had been announced as dead nearly a month ago	11:00
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: I do have multiple servers, it shows them in media player.	11:00
DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: that's exactly opposite direction though	11:01
X-Fade	Ah, otherwise you need rygel.	11:01
DocScrutinizer	but hey, so I should be able to see one N900 as server in other N900's mediaplayer?	11:01
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X-Fade	There is no upnp server included by default.	11:02
DocScrutinizer	mhm	11:02
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DocScrutinizer	so this spec is a lie	11:02
Stskeeps	tv out with wlan/upnp -> tv is a upnp server	11:03
Jaffa	Morning, all	11:03
DocScrutinizer	ooh	11:03
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Foob	Hi, any ideas what I should do, when I want to connect to my N800 with ssh by using bluetooth (Nokia E55 (Symbian) -> N800)	11:03
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DocScrutinizer	install ssh server pkg on maemo	11:04
Foob	I think I should have ssh server running already	11:04
DocScrutinizer	then, for the BT part, errr no idea	11:04
Foob	Yeah, I were trying to google already for a while. It should be possible	11:05
DocScrutinizer	PAN maybe	11:05
Foob	PAN? -> google	11:05
DocScrutinizer	Private Area Network?	11:05
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DocScrutinizer	a BT profile	11:05
Foob	ah	11:05
Foob	Then there should be Ip address	11:05
Foob	Actually I'm trying to use Qt for making a client for one server	11:06
Foob	But the server is running on my N800 and I need to connect to it by Nokia	11:06
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DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles#PAN	11:06
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Foob	Ok, Thanks	11:07
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DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: morning	11:09
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mece	WOW!	11:18
mece	mussorgsky is pretty sweet!	11:18
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secyrita1	hmm. any way to force n900 to use headphone-mode?	11:21
secyrita1	or should i just go yell at the store that my original headphone doesnt work anymore :-(	11:22
Duckboot	secyrita1: Stare hard and evilly at it for 5 minutes, while you are waving a enormous magnet at it.	11:22
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Duckboot	;-P	11:23
thresh	be sure to enable camera, otherwise the device wont see you.	11:23
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Duckboot	thresh: Oh - I almost forgot that one - thanks	11:24
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RST38h	Facebook Is Trying To Register The Word Face As A Trademark	11:24
Scelt	url	11:24
secyrita1	Duckboot, thresh: already tried that :-(	11:25
Duckboot	RST38h: Wuut?	11:26
RST38h	Google, no?	11:27
Duckboot	RST38h: facepalm well well - so much for thinking.	11:29
thresh	you cant use facepalm!	11:30
RST38h	"Palm" is already a registred trademark, isn't it?	11:31
Duckboot	thresh: Shit - It contains the word face....	11:31
crashanddie	RST38h: well, after they sued some poor teacher website for the use of "book", I'm not really surprised	11:31
thresh	RST38h: indeed. so it's ** from now on.	11:31
Duckboot	So both face and palm are protected	11:31
RST38h	"Face" is still safe	11:31
RST38h	"Book" too BTW	11:31
Duckboot	fcaplm	11:31
Duckboot	fceplm	11:31
crashanddie	Duckboot: pretty sure that "Cap" is owned by CapGemini	11:31
Duckboot	HAHAHA	11:31
Duckboot	I have to either start speaking klingon, og just shut up.	11:32
Corsac	isn't klingon trademarked too?	11:32
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ShadowJK	sure, but TtLINGHan HOL (or whatever klingon language is in klingon, I forget) isn't? :P	11:33
crashanddie	Duckboot: 'uch lIj nuj	11:34
RST38h	I am sure the whole language is patented	11:34
Duckboot	RST38h: Probably	11:34
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crashanddie	well, it's related material of Star Trek	11:34
crashanddie	so yeah, Paramount owns it	11:34
Duckboot	Then I'll have to come up with my own language, and trademark it.	11:34
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RST38h	wowow, "On FedEx vehicle for delivery"	11:35
crashanddie	yeah, good luck with the first pick up lines	11:35
crashanddie	RST38h: what are you going to get?	11:35
Duckboot	crashanddie: Don't need that, I'm married.	11:35
crashanddie	Duckboot: well, marriage doesn't exclude chat up lines, does it?	11:35
RST38h	crash: a laptop	11:36
crashanddie	Is flirting prohibited when in a serious relationship?	11:36
crashanddie	RST38h: sweet	11:36
Duckboot	crashanddie: Hehe	11:36
RST38h	this one has got broken LCD and it is too expensive to fix =(	11:36
crashanddie	RST38h: ah yes, had the same issue	11:36
crashanddie	RST38h: kinda dropped it in the stairs, big crack along the center line	11:36
crashanddie	so I just made a debian server out of it	11:36
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Scelt	ShadowJK: http://kasvi.org/index.php?kli	11:36
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DocScrutinizer	nod mussorgsky is exactly what I've been looking for	11:46
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DocScrutinizer	though a mediaplayer allowing to sort and `art` media files based on directory structure and filenames would be magnitudes nicer still	11:48
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X-Fade	Can anyone paste the Mem: line of top on a N900 running PR1.2 for me?	11:58
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psycho_oreos	X-Fade, Mem: 199776K used, 45572K free, 0K shrd, 1124K buff, 51900K cached	12:01
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X-Fade	psycho_oreos: What does total say?	12:01
psycho_oreos	X-Fade, it won't say in there, but if you do cat /proc/meminfo it'll show	12:02
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X-Fade	Hmm ok, looking at a different top myself ;)	12:02
psycho_oreos	actually free can show total as well	12:02
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X-Fade	psycho_oreos: What does total say for you?	12:03
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psycho_oreos	X-Fade, Total: 1031772	12:03
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psycho_oreos	I'm sure that figure shouldn't change	12:03
X-Fade	Hmm on MeeGo I have: MemTotal: 228580 kB	12:03
psycho_oreos	meego on which? n9?	12:04
X-Fade	No, N900.	12:04
Stskeeps	X-Fade: different utilities maybe	12:04
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psycho_oreos	ahh probably different setup, maybe more swap space	12:05
X-Fade	cat /proc/meminfo \|grep MemTotal	12:05
X-Fade	MemTotal: 228580 kB	12:05
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psycho_oreos	MemTotal: 245348 kB	12:05
Duckboot	Nokia-N900:~# cat /proc/meminfo \|grep MemTotal	12:05
Duckboot	MemTotal: 245300 kB	12:05
X-Fade	No, that is supposed to be ram, right?	12:05
X-Fade	Yeah, that is what I figured. We have less ram to play with in the MeeGo kernel.	12:06
jacekowski	iirc that ram is shared	12:06
jacekowski	with dsp ivs and powervr	12:06
psycho_oreos	yeah that's definitely RAM, swap was 768MB	12:06
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jacekowski	or just dsp	12:07
X-Fade	jacekowski: It is 16MB less, sounds suspicious ;)	12:07
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psycho_oreos	I was suspecting kernel is newer on meego therefore it may reserve more but then that should still show it	12:07
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jacekowski	check memory map	12:08
jacekowski	it should be in dmesg	12:08
jacekowski	is bootloader same?	12:08
jacekowski	or different?	12:08
X-Fade	[ 0.000000] Memory: 128MB 128MB = 256MB total	12:08
X-Fade	[ 0.000000] Memory: 228440k/228440k available, 33704k reserved, 0K highmem	12:08
jacekowski	looks OK	12:08
X-Fade	So it reserves 32MB.	12:09
psycho_oreos	can't see mine lol, my n900 has been on awhile so it won't appear in dmesg	12:09
psycho_oreos	s/on/on\ for/	12:09
infobot	psycho_oreos meant: can't see mine lol, my n900 has been on\ for awhile so it won't appear in dmesg	12:09
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DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: isn't meego run via kexec?	12:10
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X-Fade	No, direct boot.	12:11
DocScrutinizer	so odds might be the original kernel ram isn't available to the meego kernel?	12:11
DocScrutinizer	well, was just an idea	12:12
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Khertan	Morning	12:13
crashanddie	hi Khertan	12:14
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DocScrutinizer	hehe ->[112673.533477] wl1251: ERROR Power save entry failed, giving up	12:14
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crashanddie	psycho_oreos: space isn't a special character in regexp	12:14
Khertan	crashanddie, depends of implementation	12:15
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crashanddie	Khertan: eh?	12:15
Khertan	yes	12:16
Khertan	4D	12:16
Khertan	:)	12:16
crashanddie	not it ain't	12:16
crashanddie	s/\s/ /	12:16
crashanddie	damn you infobot	12:16
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DocScrutinizer	ibot regex is most basic	12:18
crashanddie	indeed	12:18
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psycho_oreos	crashanddie, it is to me when using it under vim for example but its just a habit that I've gotten used to	12:18
DocScrutinizer	basically it's no regex but a stringsearch	12:18
psycho_oreos	vim/sed	12:18
crashanddie	psycho_oreos: in sed it's most likely due to your shell, not regexp	12:19
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psycho_oreos	crashanddie, ahh ok, well then that'll be issue in bash department with escaping chars	12:19
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* Khertan should try to use regex a bit more ... i forgot everythings		12:20
* crashanddie wrote a 600 line perl script earlier this week		12:20
* psycho_oreos sucks at regexp but will learn how to deal with it when and if needed again		12:20
crashanddie	then I noticed I forgot ; nearly everywhere (I wrote it in one go), so I wrote another perl script to modify the first perl script	12:21
* Khertan write a pylint plugin for khteditor ... need a regexp test plugin now :)		12:21
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DocScrutinizer	err, regex is simple	12:21
crashanddie	just unreadable	12:21
Khertan	DocScrutinizer, hum ...	12:21
DocScrutinizer	yep	12:21
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crashanddie	it really is very simple logic, find this, group this, replace with this	12:22
marmoute	Khertan: sweet for the pylint plugins	12:22
crashanddie	it's just that the way the grammar is written is extremely confusing and non-obvious for visual creatures like ourselves	12:22
DocScrutinizer	not to me :-P	12:22
Khertan	yep it s simply unreadable	12:23
DocScrutinizer	I started my career with such things like wordmaster on CPM2.2	12:23
DocScrutinizer	or - even better - MEDIS on BS-M	12:23
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crashanddie	$((?:[a-zA-Z_0-9]\| \|\*(?: ?,)?)$ <- not really the easiest way to read something	12:24
crashanddie	(I just wrote that on the fly, errors possible)	12:24
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Khertan	/<\/?\w+((\s+(\w\|\w[\w-]\w)(\s=\s(?:\".?\"\|'.?'\|[^'\">\s]+))?)+\s\|\s*)\/?>/i what does it do ?	12:25
Khertan	it s not readable	12:25
Khertan	if there isn't any comment in source	12:25
crashanddie	Khertan: matches an opening and or closing tag of XML	12:25
Khertan	:)	12:25
crashanddie	Khertan: and adds grouping for tag name, and properties+values	12:26
toggles_w	what's xml?	12:26
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crashanddie	Khertan: do you know what mine matches?	12:26
Khertan	crashanddie, ok but admit it s not easy to read	12:26
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crashanddie	Khertan: I said that 5 minutes ago :P 11:21 < crashanddie> just unreadable	12:26
Khertan	crashanddie, lol meme pas	12:26
Khertan	yep	12:27
crashanddie	Khertan: it matches function arguments for C or C++	12:27
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Khertan	oh ... i keep it for my c qsyntaxhilighter so :)	12:27
crashanddie	you'll have to modify it	12:27
crashanddie	it's not perfect	12:27
Khertan	;(	12:27
DocScrutinizer	it's silly to ask "can you read this?" - I can't even read C code without the context given	12:28
crashanddie	khertan: /$(?:((?:[a-zA-Z_0-9]\| \|\*?)(?: ?,))+$/ <-- that should work	12:29
DocScrutinizer	it's like demanding machinecode should be written in flowcharts as the assembler is so hard to read	12:29
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crashanddie	only for function definitions, not function calls	12:29
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DocScrutinizer	regex isn't a noation to read, but to efficiently write something	12:29
crashanddie	indeed	12:30
Khertan	DocScrutinizer, yep ... like perl ... this is something to write, not to read or maintain	12:30
crashanddie	I never try to "re-use" a regexp a couple of months after I've written it	12:30
crashanddie	I just write it anew	12:30
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DocScrutinizer	if you need a descriptive notation, use something like EBNF	12:32
MNZ	what does rx51 mean?	12:35
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MohammadAG	device model number	12:36
MohammadAG	RX-51	12:36
* MohammadAG ponders what the unreleased RX-71 was all about		12:36
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MNZ	and that's the model number of the production N900s ?	12:36
DocScrutinizer	for regex it's bets practice to supply a comment with maximum complexity string pattern example that should get matched by the regex - then it's actually simple to read regex	12:36
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hrw	MNZ: n900 is rx-51	12:37
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: N9?	12:37
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, it was in the kernel from about a year ago afaik	12:38
DocScrutinizer	sure, why not	12:38
DocScrutinizer	tbh I'm puzzled to see 'N9' pictures where the device has a kbd	12:38
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DocScrutinizer	but that's not uncommon for products to get such features like hw kbd added/removed during development	12:39
crashanddie	Khertan: gets any parameter, including function calls: $(?:((?:[a-zA-Z_0-9\($\[\]]\| \|\*)+)(?: ?, ?)?)+\)	12:40
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Surfa	what makes you think it wouldn't have kbd from the beginnning?	12:40
Shadikka	mmmm, regexes	12:40
DocScrutinizer51	MNZ: guess what I'm typing this on	12:40
MohammadAG	An N95?	12:40
MohammadAG	:P	12:40
Shadikka	crashanddie: Hmm, why comment the parentheses inside the character class?	12:41
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crashanddie	dunno, just wrong habbit I guess?	12:41
MNZ	DocScrutinizer, a PDP11?	12:41
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Shadikka	Just started wondering. :P Better safe than sorry, though.	12:41
crashanddie	MNZ: you are so wrong	12:41
DocScrutinizer51	no no PDP11-51	12:41
MNZ	crashanddie, what? what did I do?	12:41
DocScrutinizer51	actually I gave away the PDP11 6 years ago	12:42
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crashanddie	MNZ: DocScrutinizer51 actually drums his thoughts on a djembe, and has an autochtone from papua new guinea who converts it at lightning speed into binary bits which are fed through a USB port to his computer	12:42
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crashanddie	because the autochtone has so many piercings, it was just a simple operation of shoving a A23 battery up his nose, and now everytime he taps his fingers on a cable, the computer can read it as a digital input	12:43
DocScrutinizer	hehehehe	12:44
* crashanddie bows		12:44
MNZ	I thought real programmers used the butterfly effect to manipulate the atmosphere into focusing cosmic rays onto usb cables to send keyboard input?	12:45
MNZ	XKCD does it best. http://xkcd.com/378/	12:45
crashanddie	but again, you make a false assumption	12:45
MNZ	let me guess	12:45
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MNZ	DocScrutinizer is not a real programmer	12:45
crashanddie	you assume DocScrutinizer is a programmer, he is not. At best, he's an electronic programmer, and assembles systems using analogical electronics	12:45
crashanddie	analog?	12:46
DocScrutinizer	I'm not a real programmer, as "real programmers don't use Pascal"	12:46
* Khertan hate php		12:46
Stskeeps	<3 polypasca	12:47
Stskeeps	l	12:47
MNZ	Pascal Hyper-Processor ?	12:47
crashanddie	anyway, I'm out	12:47
crashanddie	lunch, and I'm getting a medical	12:47
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:JOERG	12:47
MNZ	cheers crashanddie	12:47
Khertan	http://xkcd.com/353/	12:47
Khertan	^^	12:47
MNZ	Khertan, a pythoneer?	12:48
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Khertan	:)	12:48
Shadikka	python -c "import antigravity"	12:50
Shadikka	(try it if you don't know.)	12:50
MNZ	what really scares me is python -c "import sentience"	12:50
MNZ	didn't they remove that easter egg?	12:50
Shadikka	shrug Works in 3.1 at least.	12:51
rmrfchik	seems like i'm alone with scheme here	12:51
Shadikka	(3.1.2 to be more accurate)	12:51
rmrfchik	3.1.2 is not a function	12:51
MNZ	XD	12:51
Shadikka	Took me a moment to figure out wtf. :P	12:52
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MNZ	DocScrutinizer, I have heard the name openmoko a bunch of times before but never did check it out. That wikireader is pretty awesome!	13:00
DocScrutinizer	yeah, funny little thing	13:02
DocScrutinizer	and it was originally designed with a decent hw kbd, in a clamshell	13:03
DocScrutinizer	and the kbd matrix was decently designed, not like the N900 one :-P	13:04
Foob	Darn, there isnt PAN support on my Nokia :P	13:04
jacekowski	there is nothing wrong with n900 keyboard	13:04
jacekowski	i don't really see case when somebody would want to press more than 2 keys at the same time	13:05
DocScrutinizer	plus I even had some footprint for a mini-USB connector on the PCB, so hackers could easily retrofit :-D	13:05
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DocScrutinizer	errr, ctrl-shift-i or what was that now? to switch to portrait? and what was printscreen?	13:06
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TermanaN900	right, I have determined without doubt #meego == tmo	13:07
TermanaN900	:P	13:07
rmrfchik	jacekowski: up+left to to move + ctrl to fire	13:07
rmrfchik	;)	13:07
Surfa	1	13:07
DocScrutinizer	F-keys on Fn-Shift-<number> would be friggin nice	13:08
DocScrutinizer	ctrl-shift = alt - also a nice-to-have	13:08
X-Fade	Jaffa: ping?	13:08
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: the point is, there is ZERO nada niente reason to build the N900 kbd matrix in _this_ borked way	13:10
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: Can you drop the ops please?	13:10
DocScrutinizer	sorry	13:10
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Foob	Argh... It's starting to look, that easiest way to connect my Nokia E55 to N800 is program the damn thing by myself :P	13:11
jacekowski	oO	13:11
Foob	with not so stable and good way of course	13:11
flashn	jacekowski, you like typing "\|" on your n900?	13:11
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jacekowski	i do it with blue arrow key + sym + click on \|	13:12
DocScrutinizer	PITA	13:12
MohammadAG	I have it remapped somewhere	13:12
MohammadAG	blue + up arrow key	13:12
flashn	the arrow/sym buttons are malplaced	13:12
flashn	really	13:12
jacekowski	well, i don't write poems on a phone	13:13
jacekowski	and i have "full" size bt keyboard	13:13
DocScrutinizer	on N900? surely not	13:13
DocScrutinizer	let's face it, N900 is short of one row on hw kbd	13:13
jacekowski	yeah, n97 keyboard is so much better	13:14
Surfa	i don't need extra row for n900 kb	13:14
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LjL	my Milestone has 4 rows, but that results in very small keys...	13:14
Surfa	personal preferences	13:14
jacekowski	and the way it opens is much better	13:14
DocScrutinizer	the N810 kbd is really way better in that respect	13:15
MNZ	well I just tried hitting blue arrow + sym both with my left thumb and it seems that I manage to get it right each time	13:15
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: ugh, not really. No key bump feedback and far too hard to press.	13:16
DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: I'm used to it, and I'm faster on N810 than on N900	13:16
MohammadAG	I get 60WPM	13:16
MohammadAG	72 on laptop	13:16
Shadikka	"while not all(x <= y for x, y in zip(deck, deck[1:])):" .. my head hurts.	13:17
TermanaN900	Im with X-Fade - i like the n900 one better	13:17
DocScrutinizer	yuck	13:17
MNZ	I vote N900. (Small Print: never tried the n810)	13:17
DocScrutinizer	wtf "while not all" ?	13:17
MohammadAG	I haven't use an N8x0, so I have to agree the N900's better	13:17
MohammadAG	used*	13:18
* LjL scratches his head		13:18
Shadikka	DocScrutinizer: all(x) returns True if all values in the Iterable x eval to true	13:18
Shadikka	(*T)	13:18
svuorela	I like the keys much better on n900, but the layout better on n810	13:18
DocScrutinizer	ayayayay	13:18
Shadikka	Okay, that's probably the most compact way of doing it (I cannot think of how to do it otherwise), but..	13:19
* rmrfchik votes for n810 layout		13:19
Shadikka	It's definitely not the most elegant solution.	13:19
DocScrutinizer	isn't python nice?	13:19
Shadikka	hmm	13:20
DocScrutinizer	wait, is it even py?	13:20
visz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJeHHyXXS9A <- is that a men's wristwatch?	13:20
visz	Larisa Riquelme - lanzamiento del Nokia C3	13:20
Shadikka	while not all(deck[i-1] <= deck[i] for i in range(1, len(deck))) would work	13:20
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Shadikka	It is Python.	13:21
Jaffa	X-Fade: pong	13:21
Shadikka	oh whoopsie, my train's leaving pretty soon o_O	13:21
Shadikka	(of _course_ I keep track of time.)	13:21
DocScrutinizer	Shadikka: that looks way better	13:21
Shadikka	gotta agree.	13:23
* DocScrutinizer really hates these oo-oriented coding styles		13:23
Khertan	How i can add shortcut on menu on maemo with qt ... QAction with shortcut are ignore	13:23
X-Fade	Jaffa: Would you agree I should just remove libgio from diablo extras*?	13:24
DocScrutinizer	prolly I'm too old to learn to like them	13:24
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Shadikka	DocScrutinizer: that was more like a functional coding style	13:25
Jaffa	X-Fade: AIUI, yes.	13:25
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DocScrutinizer	Shadikka: yep, you're right. oo wasn't the right attribute	13:26
DocScrutinizer	maybe cluttered is more to the point	13:26
X-Fade	Jaffa: ok. exterminating...	13:26
DocScrutinizer	or let's call it the "Why use an array when we can use a dictionary of structures" coding style	13:28
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* DocScrutinizer gets headache on figuring what python does to memory usage by building up the lists to operate on, in above example		13:30
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Shadikka	I'm not actually sure	13:33
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, if something other than the bq chip takes over charging, the solid yellow light would go off right?	13:33
Shadikka	It might just reference the same list from two different points.	13:33
DocScrutinizer	errm, yes, think so	13:33
X-Fade	MohammadAG: Light is not driven by bq.	13:33
DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: it is	13:34
DocScrutinizer	:-)	13:34
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: It isn't.	13:34
DocScrutinizer	...as well at least	13:34
X-Fade	On meego, it charges without led.	13:34
DocScrutinizer	beg to disagree	13:34
X-Fade	So something drives it.	13:34
X-Fade	Or it needs to be configured to drive it at least.	13:34
X-Fade	My guess is that bme just pulses the led.	13:35
Shadikka	But anyway, memory usage in Python is usually not one of the first concerns.	13:35
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, when nothing is handling charging the light is handled by the bq	13:35
DocScrutinizer	the RGB-indicator LED is driven by LP5523 and by bq24150 (for red+green)	13:35
jacekowski	http://www.hoovers.com/texas-instruments/--ID__11462--/freeuk-co-factsheet.xhtml	13:35
X-Fade	As you can edit the pattern with led pattern editor.	13:35
MohammadAG	it's solid yellow	13:35
jacekowski	Nokia accounts for about 20% of sales;	13:35
jacekowski	20% stuff TI makes go to nokia	13:35
MohammadAG	X-Fade, you can't edit the solid yellow light	13:35
X-Fade	My N900 pulses green while charging.	13:35
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TermanaN900	X-Fade, that wouldn't explain emergency charging	13:35
MohammadAG	I'm on ubuntu atm, so no mce or bme	13:35
TermanaN900	BME isn't running when doing emergency charging and the led is yellow during it	13:36
MohammadAG	indeed	13:36
DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: that's nice, though usually it pulses yellow. Solid yellow however is usually from bq24150 on mere hardware level, without any system involved	13:36
MohammadAG	dd your /dev/mtd5 with /dev/zero, then connect a charger :P	13:37
MohammadAG	(don't... do that)	13:37
Shadikka	I've just set the led to pulse turquoise when charging.	13:37
DocScrutinizer	bq24150 switching on red + green led via two transistors, during recovery charge	13:37
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: afaik bq24150 is switching off the pin which drives yellow, as soon as any software takes over and reconfigures for real charging. So solid yellow means it's emergency charge	13:38
MohammadAG	and when that turns off, the light goes off	13:39
MohammadAG	any other lights are controlled by other software	13:39
RST38h	You are sure there is a pin that drives yellow? :)	13:39
MohammadAG	on maemo, that would be mce	13:39
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: maybe you could configure bq24150 to still assert the yellow pin, while doing normal charge, but that's up to software then, which usually won't do that	13:39
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MNZ	Since we are on about hardware, is anyone working on that digital filter support on the hardware codec in the n900?	13:42
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Shadikka	Now that's a binary operator for you. XAND.	13:43
Shadikka	A and B, but not both.	13:43
DocScrutinizer	MNZ: I looked into it, but for sure didn't think about actually starting a project to support it. Just know it's there and it looks versatile and worth a second look	13:44
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DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: even nolo seems to stop the bq24150 solid yellow, and use LP5523 for doing these white light ramp-ups and stuff. But on comletely empty battery, so system won't even level-one-boot to NOLO, bq24150 kicks in and signals emergency recover charge in progress via lighting up red+green on a hw-level	13:47
MNZ	DocScrutinizer, I have always wanted to do some linux driver work, but taking a look at this I think it's way too complex for a noob right?	13:48
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: But MohammadAG is running in ubuntu, so NOLO has touched it already.	13:48
* MohammadAG calls child abuse		13:48
DocScrutinizer	he's working on some very special wizardry involving bq24150	13:48
MohammadAG	nothing's handling the chip	13:48
MohammadAG	when I run a charging script, the light goes off	13:49
MohammadAG	so I'm assuming the script does _something_ right	13:49
barisione	how are maemo apps translated usually? transifex?	13:49
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frals	barisione: ive seen a few use transifex at least (and i use it ;D)	13:53
barisione	I guess I should do the same then	13:53
barisione	I'm used to gnome where a bunch of people just translate my software without me even noticing	13:53
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DocScrutinizer	QtLinguist?	14:01
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DocScrutinizer	barisione: I guess it depends on the rest of tools/libs you're using	14:03
barisione	it's not a problem of tools I'm using (as a programmer), but how to get translators to translate my software	14:03
DocScrutinizer	for Qt based programs I'd guess using QtLinguist is the way to go	14:04
DocScrutinizer	for a gtk based program QtLinguist obviously is nonsense	14:04
barisione	hm, there is this: http://www.transifex.net/projects/p/maemo-extras/	14:05
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DocScrutinizer	hmm, so..?	14:06
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DocScrutinizer	http://doc.trolltech.com/4.5/linguist-translators.html is also nice	14:09
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barisione	DocScrutinizer: I have a different problem. you are suggesting a technical way to translate stuff	14:13
barisione	I'm looking for the place where translators get my strings and put their translations	14:13
DocScrutinizer	ahh, you need a management framework for all the tranlating groups?	14:13
DocScrutinizer	I see, no clue. ignore me	14:14
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MNZ	is the scratchbox environment a faithful reproduction of the OS as it is on the phone?	14:19
Stskeeps	no	14:19
MNZ	expected	14:19
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MNZ	well, at least is the kernel source that I can get on scratchbox the actual source used to build the maemo kernel?	14:20
DocScrutinizer	ermm, no	14:21
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MNZ	so how do I build a module or rebuild the maemo kernel? is it available on some public repo?	14:22
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DocScrutinizer	there have been reports the binaries shipped with images or via SSU are different to those you create from any available source. It's not completely clear yet if it's simply due to build environment differences or if there are actually different sourcecode versions used internally by Nokia	14:23
alterego	MNZ: you need scratchbox and download the kernel-source package.	14:23
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MNZ	ermm actually I did a apt-get soruce kernel. So what's the kernel-source package, alterego?	14:26
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MNZ	the package description says it's the kernel source for rx-51. I guess this is as close as possible?	14:28
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DocScrutinizer	close enough	14:32
DocScrutinizer	anyway it's probably a good idea to compile and install kernel and modules from same source, no matter what	14:33
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DocScrutinizer	ask MohammadAG, he should know by now :-)	14:34
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MohammadAG	rebuilding a module is easy	14:35
MohammadAG	in fact, I'm doing that right now	14:35
MohammadAG	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Kernel_and_Debugging_Guide/Maemo_Kernel_Guide#Compiling_External_Kernel_Modules	14:36
DocScrutinizer	how well do modules match the stock kernel?	14:36
MNZ	what about a module that's builtin? One would need to replace the kernel and I don't want to miss nokia-specific code	14:36
MNZ	MohammadAG, what's the difference between the kernel source from source of the 'kernel' package and the kernel source that the kernel-source package installs?	14:38
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DocScrutinizer	if you modify a builtin module you'll have to build all modules as well. But you won't lose any 'nokia specifics'	14:38
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MNZ	DocScrutinizer, unless the kernel sources we have are not the ones used to build the stock kernel	14:39
Stskeeps	trust me, it's the one	14:39
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Stskeeps	:P	14:39
DocScrutinizer	yep, but as mentioned above, that's just rant	14:39
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DocScrutinizer	(yet?)	14:40
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MohammadAG	MNZ, use the source of the package "kernel"	14:41
MohammadAG	kernel-source is generated by that	14:41
MohammadAG	it's a copy of the kernel before anything is compiled	14:41
MNZ	MohammadAG, ah, thanks	14:41
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TTablet	Hey there!	15:07
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TTablet	Abou NITdroid....	15:07
TTablet	How it is going?	15:07
TTablet	(NITdroid 2)	15:07
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MohammadAG	#nitdroid	15:08
TTablet	thx	15:08
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ramoncio	can anybody help me plz? I bricked my n900. it exists flash mode in just a second, so I can't flash it :(	15:21
flashn	>:/	15:22
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MohammadAG	take out battery, run flasher, connect USB, shove the battery back in	15:22
ramoncio	I'll try that right now, thanks	15:23
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ramoncio	Suitable USB device not found, waiting.	15:29
ramoncio	USB device found found at bus 002, device address 004.	15:29
ramoncio	Found device RX-51, hardware revision 2104	15:29
ramoncio	NOLO version 1.4.14	15:29
ramoncio	Version of 'sw-release': RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1_PR_MR0	15:29
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ramoncio	Booting device into flash mode.	15:29
ramoncio	Suitable USB device not found, waiting.	15:29
ramoncio	the usb icon appears for just a second	15:29
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ramoncio	this is the command I run	15:29
ramoncio	sudo flasher-3.5 -F /media/Windows7/Users/ramoncio/Desktop/nokia\ n900/firmware/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin -f -R	15:29
ramoncio	flasher v2.5.2 (Oct 21 2009)	15:29
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Scelt	?? flash	15:30
Scelt	~flash	15:30
infobot	from memory, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	15:30
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Scelt	ramoncio: you press the u key?	15:32
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pycg	how can i get qmake installed on n900? libqt4-dev qmake from sdk repos doesnt work	15:34
X-Fade	pycg: You can't.	15:35
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X-Fade	As the -dev package is hacked so that there are i386 binaries inside for scratchbox support.	15:35
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pycg	ok	15:38
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ramoncio_	sorry, my computer hanged	15:38
ramoncio_	so this is the correct flash command?	15:38
ramoncio_	sudo flasher-3.5 -F /media/Windows7/Users/ramoncio/Desktop/nokia\ n900/firmware/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin --flash-only=kernel -f -R	15:38
X-Fade	ramoncio_: no	15:39
ramoncio_	what should I change?	15:39
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ramoncio_	sorry, I lost the link	15:39
X-Fade	The EMMC bin is your internal storage.	15:39
ramoncio_	oh	15:39
ramoncio_	I see	15:39
X-Fade	You need the actual firmware.	15:39
ramoncio_	n900/firmware/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin	15:40
ramoncio_	????	15:40
ramoncio_	sorry	15:40
ramoncio_	RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin	15:40
MohammadAG	yes	15:41
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ramoncio_	THANK YOU VERY MUCH	15:42
ramoncio_	that was the problem	15:43
ramoncio_	My n900 is back!!	15:43
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ramoncio_	thank you very much, I0m out for dinner	15:44
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crashanddie	boo	16:16
GAN900	oob	16:16
crashanddie	make an effort: ood	16:17
FredrIQ	moo	16:17
FredrIQ	oop	16:17
crashanddie	boo	16:18
crashanddie	qoo	16:18
crashanddie	crap	16:18
crashanddie	poo	16:18
crashanddie	ooq	16:18
crashanddie	so, first horizontal, then vertical, then horizontal again, then vertical mirroring.	16:18
crashanddie	boo	16:18
crashanddie	poo	16:18
crashanddie	ooq	16:18
crashanddie	ood	16:18
crashanddie	boo	16:19
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MohammadAG	/kick crashanddie	16:19
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* crashanddie wonders who the hell is behind Energy Star, and why have we been seeing them on our BIOS' for 20 years, even though every year someone else comes out with a better solution than their current crap.		16:22
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derf	crashanddie: It's a government program.	16:30
crashanddie	which government?	16:31
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derf	The US.	16:31
derf	Does it matter?	16:31
crashanddie	well, kinda	16:31
crashanddie	considering it appears on nearly any European computer	16:31
DocScrutinizer	http://www.energystar.gov/	16:32
derf	We probably conned them into giving out tax breaks, too.	16:32
crashanddie	hmm, it's international, actually.	16:33
derf	I'm sure it is now.	16:34
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derf	Anyway, the point is, Energy Star == tax dodge, and nothing to do with energy.	16:35
crashanddie	heh	16:36
crashanddie	"To qualify for an Energy Star logo, companies self-certify that their products comply with the standards. The Energy Department does not test products for compliance with Energy Star standards, and often there is no independent verification of what manufacturers report."	16:36
kerio	Shadikka: hmm	16:36
crashanddie	derf: not quite	16:36
kerio	isn't that just a check for sortedness?	16:36
crashanddie	"Devices carrying the Energy Star logo, such as computer products and peripherals, kitchen appliances, buildings and other products, generally use 20%–30% less energy than required by federal standards."	16:36
DocScrutinizer51	sounds quite like 'CE'	16:37
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derf	crashanddie: Who do you think wrote the standards?	16:37
crashanddie	well, as always, the industry	16:37
kerio	if list(deck) == list(sorted(deck))	16:38
crashanddie	heck, my name is probably in a couple of standards drafts	16:38
crashanddie	and I was far from being unbiased	16:38
crashanddie	as timeless can certainly certify :D	16:39
kerio	you mean "crash and die" is in a lot of standards?	16:39
kerio	D:	16:39
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crashanddie	well	16:39
crashanddie	never checked for that	16:39
crashanddie	but then again, that's not my name	16:39
crashanddie	and "couple" is hardly "a lot"	16:39
kerio	i hope those are not plane standards	16:39
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crashanddie	kerio: I was a security consultant, if it makes you feel any better	16:40
MNZ	much better	16:40
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crashanddie	which is one of the broadest terms I could think of, admittedly	16:40
Duckboot	A security Consultant named Crash and Die - Now I feel _real_ secure	16:40
DocScrutinizer51	lol	16:41
kerio	oh, nitdroid has calls now?	16:41
Duckboot	kerio: Almost	16:41
kerio	cool	16:42
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Duckboot	kerio: they are working on audio-routing afaik	16:42
kerio	haha what a pr0n clip during the video launch of the N8?	16:42
* kerio is reading RSS feeds		16:42
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GAN900	derf, quit being such a cynic. The government is only ever looking out for your best interests. choke	16:43
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Duckboot	GAN900: And Unicorns really do exists.	16:45
Duckboot	s/exists/exist	16:45
crashanddie	Duckboot: I'm thinking unicorns really did exist	16:47
SpeedEvil	http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1025793/The-horned-deer-solve-mystery-unicorn.html	16:47
joga	does mappero have any command line parameters? It would be convenient to be able to make a shortcut that would display the route from gps position to some fixed target like home, using the "Reittiopas" route planner interface	16:48
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DocScrutinizer51	reit die Opas?	16:51
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joga	www.reittiopas.fi :)	16:51
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joga	mappero already has a nice interface to it, it's just that I need to manually click a few times to get the route	16:52
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joga	I'd like to have a couple of shortcuts like "Go home from here"	16:52
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* DocScrutinizer51 as well		16:55
GAN900	Somebody should write a "SpecAnalyzer" application to check the numbers on rumor specs and tell you whether they're complete bs.	16:57
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DocScrutinizer51	meh, maemo is incredibly lacking on such nice and actually simple integration: no way to click "take phot now" from contacts avatar selection. No way to store geo-coords to a contact, not to think about having a 'go there from here'. No copy of GPS coords to any other app in a simple manner	16:58
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DocScrutinizer51	aso aso	16:58
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GAN900	It lacks polish everywhere	17:01
GAN900	It's no surprise, given that it's a miracle the damn thing shipped at all	17:01
DocScrutinizer51	yep	17:02
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GAN900	(which Nokia's marketting people like to point to like it's not embareassing)	17:02
DocScrutinizer51	but meego will be so much better... Really! believe me! no kidding	17:02
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psycho_oreos	meego with rpm hell	17:03
GAN900	It will! We've got Intel and Novell n'shit involved!	17:03
Stskeeps	sigh, i've only had sanity with rpm so far	17:03
Stskeeps	:P	17:03
DocScrutinizer51	yeah, so system integration and uniform UX can't fail	17:04
Stskeeps	considering how i usually rape OS'es, rpm hasn't been the least bit problematic	17:04
DocScrutinizer51	yep same here	17:04
Termana	I'm not concerned about rpms	17:05
DocScrutinizer51	RPM vs deb is kinda like emacs vs vim	17:05
Termana	I am concerned however over DocScrutinizer51 and Stskeeps raping OS'es	17:05
Termana	:P	17:05
Stskeeps	it's more fun when people compare rpm and apt-get	17:05
Stskeeps	:P	17:05
SpeedEvil	Can we not have a cat/dd war?	17:05
SpeedEvil	That'd be fun.	17:05
psycho_oreos	and there's no proper equivalent of apt-mirror	17:05
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DocScrutinizer51	I'm temped to define a set of aliases and see how long it takes til people even notice they use zypper instead of apt	17:06
MohammadAG	I present to you, something that should go down linux history :P http://i33.tinypic.com/drec68.jpg	17:07
lbt	psycho_oreos: and no apt-cacher-ng :(	17:07
MNZ	MohammadAG, I've seen ~300 on an 8core i7	17:08
satmd	:p	17:08
SpeedEvil	I've seen 8000 on a 486/75	17:08
MohammadAG	xD	17:08
SpeedEvil	It was however a wierd app	17:08
SpeedEvil	I basically had several thousand sleep 5min going at once.	17:09
satmd	lol	17:09
MNZ	of course the load number stops really being of any use/meaning after a certain threshold....	17:09
SpeedEvil	I was finding free domains in [a-z0-9].(com\|net\|org)	17:09
psycho_oreos	lbt, yup and we've silenced the rpm fans :)	17:09
MohammadAG	I was running make -j 100	17:09
MohammadAG	compiling the kernel	17:10
SpeedEvil	This was on a 33k6 modem - which wasn't slow at the time, and already they were mostly gone up to length 4	17:10
SpeedEvil	I now have a 4 letter domain name.	17:10
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kerio	SpeedEvil: what domain?	17:10
kerio	also, don't you mean [a-z0-9]+\.(com\|net\|org) ?	17:11
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SpeedEvil	yes	17:11
SpeedEvil	though also I checked single letters.	17:11
SpeedEvil	qkwv.com	17:11
kerio	oh, so...	17:11
kerio	hmm	17:11
kerio	what's the "one or more"?	17:12
kerio	"?"?	17:12
SpeedEvil	I picked it through the advanced means of placing snipes for a fiver on all ebay domain name auctions under chars.	17:12
SpeedEvil	yes	17:12
SpeedEvil	I really wanted to express 1-4 - but I couldn't be bothered remembering the syntax	17:12
kerio	did you invent a nice backronym for it?	17:12
MNZ	SpeedEvil, [a-z]{1,4}	17:13
SpeedEvil	It's a duck surfing website.	17:13
SpeedEvil	Quackwave.	17:13
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kerio	heh	17:13
kerio	MNZ: [a-z0-9]{1,4}	17:13
kerio	can domains start with a number?	17:13
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SpeedEvil	yes	17:14
SpeedEvil	4chan.org	17:14
kerio	oh right	17:14
* kerio feels dumb		17:14
DocScrutinizer51	1700.com	17:14
kerio	who owns 0.com?	17:14
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kerio	oh, the IANA	17:14
MNZ	MohammadAG, btw, you'll probably build faster if you set the number of threads to something sane :D maybe double the number of cores? (guessing)	17:15
MNZ	ummm http://42.com wtf?	17:15
MohammadAG	MNZ, I wasn't building to get a kernel, was loading the PC to get more entropy	17:15
MohammadAG	which didn't exactly work	17:16
MNZ	Mouse wiggling FTW	17:16
GAN900	Anybody else feel old when people talk about 1GHz ARMs like they're so 2008?	17:16
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* Jaffa still has a 12MHz ARM250 in the loft :-(		17:16
Jaffa	And a StrongARM netBook in his study	17:16
kerio	bash on the keyboard like a monkey!	17:16
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SpeedEvil	I have a Z80 netbook.	17:17
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_berto_	fuck ARM, this is going to be my next computer: http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/26/commodore-usa-announces-the-pc64-an-atom-powered-pc-in-a-replic/	17:17
_berto_	(well, actually when they make one with a zx spectrum case :D)	17:18
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disse	heyho	17:21
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jacktheripper	hey, I installed openjdk from the wiki. java is spitting out an error. It can't find libjli.so	17:26
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GAN900	The N9 specs thread is gold.	17:27
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jacktheripper	nvm, it works	17:28
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disse	A little question: I compiled my first programm with scratchbox and saw it @ Xephyr. now, I wanted to test the same @ FREMANTLE_ARMEL. So, I changed this with sb-conf select FREMANTLE_ARMEL and wanted to compile. I give you some Information: http://pastie.org/1120422	17:28
disse	and I created an other gtk file with ARMEL, but it doesn't worked too.	17:29
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psycho_oreos	that's a simple user error	17:29
disse	where is my problem?	17:30
psycho_oreos	what you have: gtk_helloworld.c ... what you tried to make which the file doesn't exist: gtk_helloworld-1.c	17:30
disse	autch	17:30
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disse	why ARMEL doesn't work with Xephyr?? With X86 with no problems, but with ARMEL?	17:32
Appiah	O_o	17:32
disse	same commands	17:32
X-Fade	disse: Because your CPU is x86? :)	17:33
disse	ah, k	17:33
psycho_oreos	you could probably get that to work under qemu heh	17:33
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DocScrutinizer	muhaha. vulnerability in ActiveX-Control "UfPBCtrl.dll" of Trend Micro Internet Security. Allows execution of code in local context	17:47
kerio	heh	17:47
SpeedEvil	Umm.	17:47
SpeedEvil	Active-X is the vuln.	17:47
kerio	isn't there something similar to Muphry's Law for security?	17:47
SpeedEvil	Active-X is batshit insane.	17:47
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SpeedEvil	It relies not only on the signator being honest, and non-compromised, but also producing 100% vulnerability-free code.	17:48
kerio	SpeedEvil: what could go wrong when using activex in a security tool? :D	17:49
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DocScrutinizer	well Trend Micro is a antivir & firewall	17:49
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DocScrutinizer	meh	17:50
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DocScrutinizer	http://esupport.trendmicro.com/pages/Hot-Fix-UfPBCtrldll-is-vulnerable-to-remote-attackers.aspx	17:52
* RST38h has a PDP11-compatible palmtop. Eat that, punks.		17:52
DocScrutinizer	.aspx !! lol	17:52
* DocScrutinizer had a PDP11		17:52
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dr_s99	Hi everyone	17:54
DocScrutinizer	not yet	17:54
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GAN900	RST38h, why are you arguing with capacitive people?	18:40
GAN900	RST38h, it's like arguing with liberals, you can't appeal to the emotional basis of their position. :P	18:40
kerio	resistive allows for a stylus	18:40
kerio	'nuff said	18:40
GAN900	kerio, resistive doesn't make me want to throw my phone at the wall.	18:41
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: echo talk.maemo.org 0.0.0.0 >>/etc/hosts	18:41
RST38h	GAN900: I am not arguing, I am hunting =)	18:41
kerio	GAN900: meh, capacitive touchscreens aren't bad	18:41
kerio	my ipod touch works well	18:41
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer, oh, but I'm having fun.	18:42
GAN900	RST38h, well then, carry on.	18:42
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* DocScrutinizer51 hands RST38h a javelin		18:43
* MNZ hands RST38h a stylus		18:44
RST38h	More to the point though...	18:44
RST38h	Quesion: I have got two files (Image.c and Console.c) that qmake refuses to see. They are included as SOURCES in the .pro file, but the resulting Makefile does not mention them	18:45
RST38h	Any idea what may be wrong?	18:45
RST38h	(tried asking that on #meego, with nil result)	18:45
DocScrutinizer51	RST38h: or want a M134?	18:45
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GAN900	RST38h, no go here, either, apparently.	18:52
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* DocScrutinizer51 aims his MTHEL in tmo general direction		18:59
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RST38h	GAN900: Yea, IRC has become useless for technical stuff lately, too =(	19:02
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Macer	ugh.. installing kubuntu on someone's pos emachine from like 2002	19:03
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DocScrutinizer51	RST38h: that's subjective	19:10
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DocScrutinizer51	RST38h: I'm sure you checked for silly UC/LC issues	19:10
RST38h	of course	19:10
DocScrutinizer51	rename? atime?	19:11
DocScrutinizer51	even strace?	19:11
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DocScrutinizer51	or shoot with MTHEL	19:13
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DocScrutinizer51	the youtube vid is wort it - just for the music :-P	19:14
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antlong_	hello, does anyone know if its possible to view the contents of an sms via t-mobile.com	19:19
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alterego	antlong_: this really isn't the best place to be asking that question ..	19:22
alterego	Don't tmobile have a forum?	19:22
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antlong_	touche	19:28
SpeedEvil	t-mobile UK does	19:28
SpeedEvil	But yes - that's an entirely provider dependant question.	19:29
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rtyler	howdy guys, I'm wondering if there's a quickstart tutorial I might have missed somewhere about syncing things like music to a maemo powered device like the n900	19:54
rtyler	I tried syncing somehow with mass storage mode, but that only gave me access to my SD card	19:55
SpeedEvil	You plug n900 in	19:55
SpeedEvil	select 'ass rage' mode, and then simply copy the files.	19:55
SpeedEvil	err	19:55
SpeedEvil	mass strorage	19:55
rtyler	and I'm only permitted to push stuff onto the SD card as opposed to the phone's builtin storage?	19:56
SpeedEvil	no	19:57
SpeedEvil	If you don't select mass storage, it's not mounted	19:57
SpeedEvil	you're using windows?	19:57
rtyler	of course not, openSUSE :D	19:57
SpeedEvil	There is also sertting up USB networking, or using wifi, and then rsync/scp/...	19:58
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SpeedEvil	I just rsync over wifi,as I'm lazy.	19:58
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rtyler	heh, well I was hoping to take advantage of the podcasting stuff that banshee does	19:58
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D-Iivil	_o/	20:00
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johnsq	Hi	20:00
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D-Iivil	I have a stupid question; is there a switch or option for cp -command @ xterm to copy actual files instead of symlinks? I mean when copying ie. symlink folder, it just copies the symlink instead the real destination.	20:02
DocScrutinizer	rtyler: mount sshfs, if you want kinda generic access, without the pain of USB mass stoarge and cable plugging	20:02
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SpeedEvil	yes	20:03
SpeedEvil	cp -R or -r	20:03
SpeedEvil	or -d	20:03
SpeedEvil	I forget	20:03
DocScrutinizer	rtyler: or use sftp://user@n900 in your favourite browser/filemanager	20:03
SpeedEvil	and maybe busybox cp won't actually do that at all	20:03
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D-Iivil	SpeedEvil, -r copies folder recursively.	20:04
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* rtyler nods at DocScrutinizer		20:04
DocScrutinizer	-L, --dereference always follow symbolic links in SOURCE	20:05
DocScrutinizer	seems what you want	20:05
SpeedEvil	yeah	20:05
D-Iivil	DocScrutinizer, thanks. Will try it :)	20:05
D-Iivil	Stupid cp wont give any help of available whitches with --help	20:06
D-Iivil	:)	20:06
DocScrutinizer	nuke messybox, get decent tools	20:07
DocScrutinizer	apt-get install coreutils-gnu	20:07
DocScrutinizer	apt-get install bash	20:08
D-Iivil	DocScrutinizer, I cannot tell other users to nuke it.	20:08
D-Iivil	DocScrutinizer, need to get my tiny shell script to backup the real files instead of symlinks.	20:08
FIQ	hmm	20:08
FIQ	why isn't bash a color terminal anymore, did some modify it?	20:08
DocScrutinizer	echo PATH=/usr/bin/gnu:$PATH >>.bashrc	20:08
FIQ	cause it were last time i downloaded it	20:08
mikki-kun	FIQ: i think you need to either active that in the .bashrc or maybe write a couple of lines for it	20:09
FIQ	ok	20:09
johnsq	D-Iivil: busybox cp -L	20:09
FIQ	lol -L	20:09
FIQ	what a random switch	20:09
D-Iivil	johnsq, yeah, already got the answer :)	20:10
FIQ	should be -H at least	20:10
FIQ	hmm	20:10
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johnsq	FIQ: works also	20:10
FIQ	or well, -h should work as cp isn't putting out human readable info)	20:10
FIQ	+(	20:10
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johnsq	-h should show the help, and not use --help for help!	20:11
mikki-kun	FIQ may i ask which distribution you had the colored output in?	20:11
FIQ	ehm	20:11
FIQ	maemo	20:11
GAN900	Now that's just obnoxious.	20:11
mikki-kun	uhhh, on your n900? :o i didn't have that	20:11
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* GAN900 neglected to include beer in gluten-free considerations.		20:12
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FIQ	mikki-kun, neihter did I on this download	20:12
FIQ	but last time i had it. D:	20:12
FIQ	and yea, coreutils-gnu >>>> messybox-things	20:13
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mikki-kun	hm, i guess you can find somewhere on the interwebs some lines which make it output in color again :)	20:13
FIQ	yeah	20:13
mikki-kun	busybox ftl	20:13
FIQ	google ftw. :P	20:13
ieatlint	"bash" isn't colour... if you mean why isn't ls showing colour coded results, try "ls --color"	20:14
DocScrutinizer51	out what in color?	20:14
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DocScrutinizer51	or just look at .bashrc	20:15
mikki-kun	hm, does anybody have an idea what made my python behave like this? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60982	20:15
FIQ	well, i used to have ls --color=always as alias before and i will add it again when i feel like charging my N900	20:15
FIQ	uh	20:16
FIQ	ls as alias to that*	20:16
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kerio	FIQ: "ls --color=always -f" you mean	20:16
SpeedEvil	ls probably does not support it	20:16
SpeedEvil	that is - busybox ls	20:16
FIQ	is -f adding *, /, etc?	20:16
FIQ	uh	20:16
FIQ	SpeedEvil, meant gls. D:	20:16
mikki-kun	FIQ: ssh in there and then something like 'echo "alias ls='ls --color'" >> ~/.bash_rc' could already do the job	20:17
FIQ	alias ls='gls --color=always' if i don't fail (tired atm)	20:17
D-Iivil	-H or -L didn't work.	20:17
FIQ	hm	20:17
FIQ	if i recall correctly i had -F as well	20:17
D-Iivil	I still get cannot create symlink -error when trying to copy symlinked file to MyDocs	20:17
ieatlint	i'm impressed how many people are participating in a topic of making ls show colours :P	20:17
FIQ	(add suffixes)	20:17
MNZ	D-Iivil, try some tar magic	20:18
mikki-kun	ieatlint: that's called teamwork ;)	20:18
mikki-kun	something other OS-communities don't have that much ^^	20:18
SpeedEvil	D-Iivil: mydocs is vfat	20:18
SpeedEvil	It does not support symlinks.	20:18
MNZ	SpeedEvil, he wants to copy what the symlinks point to	20:19
D-Iivil	SpeedEvil, yes, I know, that's why I want to copy the_real_file instead of symlink.	20:19
D-Iivil	FIQ, -F didn't help :/	20:19
SpeedEvil	ah	20:19
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FIQ	D-Iivil, oh	20:20
MNZ	D-Iivil, like I said, tar magic	20:20
adisbladis	Is there any way to solve the error while running pacmd?	20:20
FIQ	er	20:20
SpeedEvil	FIQ: you probably nered to install gnu tools.	20:20
FIQ	nvm	20:20
SpeedEvil	D-Iivil:	20:20
FIQ	@ D-Iivil	20:20
SpeedEvil	D-Iivil: the busybox versions are cut down and are only intended for noninteractiver use.	20:20
SpeedEvil	This is fine, and they work well for that.	20:20
MNZ	D-Iivil, try "tar chf - yoursymlinks \| tar x -C where/do/you/want/to/extract"	20:20
FIQ	SpeedEvil, i installed grep-gnu, coreutils-gnu, and some other gnu things	20:21
ieatlint	tar is kinda over the top, heh	20:21
D-Iivil	MNZ, thx, will try it :)	20:21
DocScrutinizer	mikki-kun: ...or `nano .bashrc`	20:21
ieatlint	at that point, just do "cat file > dest"	20:21
ieatlint	permissions won't be kept, but on vfat, that doesn't matter	20:21
mikki-kun	DocScrutinizer: i'd rather use notepad than go with nano...	20:21
FIQ	(like nano for example)	20:21
FIQ	meh	20:21
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D-Iivil	FIQ, I cannot force other users to use those. Must work with included tools.	20:21
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FIQ	nano is nicer. :D	20:21
mikki-kun	i am a vim-user	20:21
FIQ	ah	20:22
FIQ	guess vim is fine too. :p	20:22
MNZ	ieatlint, he would have to loop through all files, perhaps use find or something. tar will do the job (if -h is supported in busybox tar)	20:22
mikki-kun	in the past i liked nano, but as i grew accustomed to vim i kinda cannot live without it	20:22
ieatlint	MNZ, rsync would be the better choice overall... assuming it's not as crippled	20:23
FIQ	btw, is screen compiled for Maemo?	20:23
MNZ	ieatlint, I know, but it's not there on busybox	20:23
ieatlint	ah, i guess i installed it then... double checked it was on my n900 before commenting	20:23
kerio	apt-get install rsync	20:23
ieatlint	somehow it just seems hilarious to do tar like that	20:24
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DocScrutinizer	D-Iivil: doesn't support messybox cp the -L flag?	20:24
lcuk	timeless, ping	20:24
D-Iivil	MNZ, getting just "cannot change ownership" -errors with that tar -command	20:24
FIQ	it appeared that the Debian .deb (copy/paste ftw) worked just fine to install, but had broken packages and didn't existed the repo	20:24
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MNZ	kerio, he's writing a shell script for end users, and doesn't want to force them to install any extra stuff	20:24
FIQ	s/the repo/in the maemo repo/	20:24
infobot	FIQ meant: it appeared that the Debian .deb (copy/paste ftw) worked just fine to install, but had broken packages and didn't existed in the maemo repo	20:24
D-Iivil	DocScrutinizer, -L gives "cannot create symlink" error.	20:24
ieatlint	D-Iivil, those are warnings i'd bet, just ignore them.. the file is there	20:24
kerio	oh, i got "cannot change ownership" too	20:25
DocScrutinizer	umm	20:25
ieatlint	the change owner error i mean	20:25
kerio	while unpacking a tar with different owners/permissions	20:25
kerio	i ended up using rsync :3	20:25
kerio	rsync is epic	20:25
FIQ	that's because of +x problems in vfat (as vfat isn't supporting the +x chmod at all), kerio	20:25
FIQ	iirc	20:25
kerio	probably	20:25
D-Iivil	ieatlint, yeah, you're right!	20:25
kerio	but tar on busybox has no ignore-unix-stuff (or whatever the option is called)	20:26
kerio	so...	20:26
D-Iivil	so the tar -magic works :)	20:26
kerio	no, wait, the problem was that the tar had a read-only directory with files inside	20:26
kerio	so it created the directory, happily set it to read-only, and then complained that it couldn't write to it	20:26
FIQ	heh	20:27
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D-Iivil	running out of battery. Thanks for the help :)	20:28
MNZ	kerio, umm... I never thought of that.. so how do you solve that?	20:28
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ieatlint	yes, rsync is awesome... and even works for transferring files over ssh	20:29
kerio	root; tar jxvf archive.tar.bz2	20:29
kerio	then i cursed a lot	20:29
MNZ	oh of course	20:29
kerio	and then bzcat archive.tar.bz2 \| tar xv	20:29
DocScrutinizer	Nokia-N900-42-11:~# ll bln	20:29
DocScrutinizer	lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 2010-08-27 19:28 bln -> .bashrc	20:29
DocScrutinizer	Nokia-N900-42-11:~# busybox cp -L bln blnx	20:29
DocScrutinizer	Nokia-N900-42-11:~# ll blnx	20:29
DocScrutinizer	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 420 2010-08-27 19:29 blnx	20:29
MNZ	hrmmm	20:29
MNZ	DocScrutinizer, maybe there were other factors complicating the thing.... a symlinked dir, or some permissions thign?	20:30
DocScrutinizer	maybe, dunno what you did	20:31
MNZ	I didn't do anything. And he logged off	20:33
MNZ	moving on	20:33
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DocScrutinizer	meh	20:35
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DocScrutinizer	kerio: (messy tar) LOL! but wait, extracting .bz2 shouldn't work at all with messytar, as it doesn't know how to invoke any decompressor, like usual tar does on finding proper file extension	20:39
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kerio	DocScrutinizer: read more scrollback	20:39
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: uh? tar doesn't detect format by extension	20:39
kerio	also it supports gzip	20:40
luke-jr	or at all for that matter	20:40
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: uhuh?	20:40
luke-jr	that's why you need to specify -z or -j for gzip or bzip2	20:40
kerio	heh	20:40
kerio	tar zxvf is so standard	20:40
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luke-jr	tar xjvpf <-- my default	20:41
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kerio	p?	20:41
MNZ	luke-jr, I'm pretty sure it does some kind of detection (file, extension, or whatever) because I use tar xf for everything	20:41
luke-jr	preserve permissions	20:41
luke-jr	like +x :p	20:41
* mgedmin votes for xvzf		20:41
luke-jr	or maybe it means owners	20:41
luke-jr	and only works for root	20:41
luke-jr	shrug	20:41
kerio	heh	20:41
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kerio	understanding unix: ur doin it wrong	20:41
luke-jr	MNZ: pretty sure normal GNU Tar doesn't do that	20:41
mgedmin	luke-jr, not only -p works only for root, it's on by default when you run tar as root	20:42
tobis87	FIQ: Regarding colors, add these alias to /etc/bash.bashrc and source it in /etc/profile http://pastebin.com/04iW34Nr	20:42
mgedmin	so I'm not sure what's the point of ever specifying it explicitlhy	20:42
mgedmin	maybe I'm missing something	20:42
luke-jr	mgedmin: lol, maybe it wasn't at one point	20:42
SpeedEvil	-p will also work in the case of groups won't it?	20:42
MNZ	luke-jr, tar --version : tar (GNU tar) 1.23	20:43
luke-jr	kill $(ps -eo size,pid \| sort -n \| tail -n 5 \| cut -b 7-) # easily make more memory space!	20:43
MNZ	luke-jr, tar xf works just fine whether it's a tar.bz2 or tgz/tar.gz	20:43
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luke-jr	MNZ: so it does … weird	20:44
DocScrutinizer	--no-auto-compress do not use use archive suffix to determine the compression program	20:45
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lcuk	mgedmin, you have seen many apps translated around the OSS sphere, for the gtk apps, which mechanism/service is commonly used?	20:53
mgedmin	gettext	20:54
lcuk	thats the runtime translation tool though, do the translators have to have access to the source repositories to actually put the translations there?	20:56
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mgedmin	lcuk, this is a bit beyond my expertise	21:00
mgedmin	usually yes, the .po files live in the upstream source repo	21:00
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mgedmin	translators often have commit privs	21:00
mgedmin	there are various tools that I'm not familiar with (Transifex? Pootle? GNOME has something of its own, I believe) and maybe they automate some of those things	21:01
mgedmin	sometimes translators attach .po files to bug reports saying "updated $language translation, please apply"	21:01
LjL	aww, i just found out the N900 doesn't have a compass :(	21:02
mirf	magnetometer?	21:03
mirf	shame isn't it	21:04
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mirf	but it's got other awesomness :D	21:04
LjL	yeah, magnetometer. i have a Motorola Milestone now, which has it, and it's handy for 1) navigation when you're on foot 2) augmented reality stuff	21:04
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LjL	yeah the N900 has some nice things, which is why i've been considering switching, but i considered a compass a relatively important one	21:05
LjL	for some reason i was convinced it had it	21:05
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kerio	people with N900s don't walk that much anyway	21:07
kerio	:P	21:07
visz	walking is for chumps	21:09
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mikki-kun	real geeks build their own compass! ^^	21:09
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derf	Just live in a country where you can see the sun.	21:10
mikki-kun	derf: even without it, the polar star helps you find your way	21:10
mikki-kun	*finding	21:11
MNZ	and if all that doesn't help, just ask someone with a magnetometer	21:11
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LjL	gyroscopes would be even better anyway!	21:17
SpeedEvil	need both	21:19
LjL	both would be most excellent	21:19
LjL	and a barometer!	21:19
MNZ	The augmented reality thing is pretty awesome. Makes me feel like I'm holding a pokedex	21:19
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SpeedEvil	http://www.st.com/stonline/products/families/evaluation_boards/steval-mki062v2.htm?wt.mc_id=enews_aug10_inemov2	21:20
LjL	well on my Milestone at least, augmented reality apps i've tried were kind of below expectations. the compass doesn't seem very accurate.	21:20
SpeedEvil	The compass is quite accurate - if calibrated properly, and away from metal.	21:22
SpeedEvil	If this is not true, it doesn't work so well	21:22
MNZ	SpeedEvil, ... someone needs to stick that thing into an RC plane or something	21:22
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LjL	MNZ: i keep thinking about this automated small dirigible idea...	21:24
LjL	SpeedEvil: well maybe, in fact i know a person who's trying to make an improved (and open-source) version of Android's daemon for processing raw compass values... but, i don't know. on my phone, moving it in directions that shouldn't really affect the compass reading seem to affect the compass reading, and i can't seem to get it to calibrate in a way that makes sense.	21:25
SpeedEvil	MNZ: I happen to know someone who actually is.	21:25
SpeedEvil	LjL: do you have access to the raw accel and magno ouputs?	21:26
LjL	SpeedEvil: magno i think so, accel not so sure. i'll know better after i'll be home with a linux machine where i can actually compile stuff for android	21:27
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MNZ	SpeedEvil, mad props to him	21:28
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SpeedEvil	LjL: you know that you have to use the accel to correct the output of a compass?	21:29
SpeedEvil	LjL: That is - the accelleration and the field orientation are two vectors.	21:30
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SpeedEvil	You have to use your model of the earths field, and the difference in these vectors pointing, to work out the absolute orientation of the device.	21:30
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nox-	moin	21:31
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tobis87	unrelated: native zfs kernel module http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=zfs_linux_coming&num=1 will be available next month.	21:37
Stskeeps	woo	21:37
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tobis87	i would really like to see a comparision, between xfs and zfs (both as native modules).	21:38
tobis87	don't know, ext4 and brtfs may be still unstable, and reiser4. mmh, i don't think i want to use a fs with the name from a murderer. (old joke: he killed his wife, because she became FAT)	21:40
Stskeeps	VFAT	21:41
Stskeeps	:P	21:41
Stskeeps	god, i just had a 90's debian flashback	21:41
Stskeeps	get out of my head	21:41
Stskeeps	:PP	21:41
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tobis87	Stskeeps: What do you think about multiple sd card slots, in the next nokia devices? We could make some mighty sw raids. :-D	21:46
Stskeeps	tobis87: n800, go nuts with zfs	21:46
luke-jr	tobis87: why Nokia?	21:47
MNZ	what's mafw?	21:48
tobis87	Stskeeps: As I said, it was unrelated, zfs would be an overkill, like xfs would be. Didn't they said that they had to ported linux to xfs. :-D	21:49
SpeedEvil	This is clearly the CPU a new nokia/meego device should have:	21:50
SpeedEvil	http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4206391/Mindspeed-26-core-basestation-DSP	21:50
tobis87	luke-jr: Or Intel, it was a joke anyway.	21:50
luke-jr	tobis87: why Intel?	21:50
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luke-jr	why joke?	21:51
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nox-	SpeedEvil, 12W? isnt that a bit much? :)	21:51
nox-	(for something like a smartphone i mean...)	21:51
SpeedEvil	But feel the cores!	21:52
nox-	:)	21:52
babsher	The n900 has a few 'cores' already but they are specialized	21:54
tobis87	luke-jr: Will meego, not be supplied by Intel and Nokia? I mean of course other tablets could also have sw raid. But I don't think that you could easily compile the raid modules on android. Joke, because sw raid would be dead slow, I don't think omap's are fast enough.	21:55
luke-jr	tobis87: shrug, I don't care about MeeGo	21:55
luke-jr	sw raid isn't slow at all	21:55
luke-jr	especially not RAID-0	21:55
luke-jr	that's just doing writes to alternative devices	21:56
luke-jr	RAID-0 would be handy for a nice performance boost	21:56
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luke-jr	and you assume Android competes with MeeGo	21:56
luke-jr	it doesn't	21:56
tobis87	luke-jr: Well raid-0 is not really raid, I did mean raid-5	21:56
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luke-jr	MeeGo competes with Ubuntu and Gentoo	21:56
luke-jr	RAID-5 requires 3 devices	21:56
kerio	with the space of one?	21:57
luke-jr	"real" RAID makes no sense for a handheld device IMO	21:57
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: Sure it does	21:57
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: I want important data to survive disk or chip failures.	21:57
kerio	SpeedEvil: so send it away	21:57
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: but not filesystem failures?	21:57
luke-jr	or CPU failures?	21:57
luke-jr	or RAM failures?	21:58
kerio	or someone stealing your n900	21:58
luke-jr	RAID's only purpose is for low-end uptime improvement	21:58
luke-jr	it's not useful for data survival	21:58
SpeedEvil	I note that there have been 4? people in here reporting failures of rthe emmc	21:59
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luke-jr	also, I'll note that SSD by nature are in fact a kind of RAID	21:59
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: sony is banning the PS3 Jailbreak users, and they've managed to get a court order to prevent the company sending any more devices	21:59
tobis87	does the n900 actually have ecc ram? i seen a ecc error recently in dmesg.	21:59
SpeedEvil	SSD is not a kind of raid.	22:00
SpeedEvil	Any more than an elephant is a kind of tomato.	22:00
SpeedEvil	tobis87: ECC flash - yes - RAM no.	22:00
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: it uses redundant NAND to handle failures	22:00
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: Which is totally different from RAID	22:01
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crashanddie	luke-jr: and RAID has not a lot to do with redundancy	22:01
SpeedEvil	The data is never duplicated.	22:01
luke-jr	LOL	22:01
SpeedEvil	The failure detection mechanism only kicks in due to a nearly incorrect, or incorrect read.	22:01
SpeedEvil	At that point, it may step in in some way to manage block errors.	22:02
zeltak	hya..anyone know whats the minimum size of micro-sd needed to boot nitdroid?	22:02
SpeedEvil	And copy the data around.	22:02
luke-jr	RAID requires redundancy, not inherently duplication :p	22:02
luke-jr	it's a /Redundant/ Array of Inexpensive Disks	22:02
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crashanddie	erhm... well, if you are running raid-0, is it still redundant?	22:02
luke-jr	SSD arguably is an array of NAND	22:02
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luke-jr	crashanddie: that's why RAID-0 isn't really RAID	22:03
crashanddie	ok, so we agree on that	22:03
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tobis87	if i think about it, ssd's don't really need raid-5, since they will fail, after a time i will surely be dead. but raid-0 seems indead intersting.	22:03
luke-jr	I suppose you could define NAND as expensive, thus never usable in RAID..	22:03
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luke-jr	tobis87: uh, you don't plan to live long?	22:04
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pauly_	hi	22:04
luke-jr	sure, SSD will fail after the device dies, but not after you or I, hopefully :P	22:04
Kegetys	ssd is not a disk so its not RAID ;)	22:04
luke-jr	it's not a disc, but how is disk defined? O.o	22:05
pauly_	quick question anyone knows what blinking greed led light when charging n900 off usb mean	22:05
SpeedEvil	Are you colour blind pauly_?	22:05
SpeedEvil	blinking yellow is charging.	22:05
mnzaki	pauly_, it means I've had enough, you can unplug me now	22:05
SpeedEvil	Blinking blue is you have a message.	22:05
Kegetys	"something with a round shape resembling a flat circular plate"	22:05
SpeedEvil	solid green is charged	22:05
luke-jr	Kegetys: that sounds like 'disc'	22:06
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jatt	in easy debian I press the blue arrow and this is mapped to enter how do i fix this	22:07
rtyler	does maemo 5 run dnsmasq or anything else locally to cache DNS queries? trying to find ways to improve my performance on AT&T's crap EDGE network :)	22:07
Kegetys	afaik. "disc" is not an actual word but just an alternate to "disk" used for optical media	22:07
luke-jr	yes	22:07
kerio	so it is an actual word	22:08
kerio	it's like disk but for optical media	22:08
SpeedEvil	rtyler: It has its own internal DNS	22:08
SpeedEvil	rtyler: I'm unsure if it caches	22:08
luke-jr	err	22:08
SpeedEvil	No reason not to install bind in principle.	22:08
tobis87	luke-jr: i thought that the ssd wear problem is only a theoretical problem. i mean the cpu of the n900 will be long dead before the ssd starts to wear.	22:08
luke-jr	afaik 'disc' is the actual word	22:08
luke-jr	and 'disk' some modern variant	22:08
Kegetys	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_(mathematics)	22:09
luke-jr	for non-visibly-circular drives	22:09
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luke-jr	tobis87: yes, the CPU in N900 is shorter-lived.	22:09
Kegetys	guess they are just alternate spellings according to that	22:09
luke-jr	tobis87: but I hope you aren't :P	22:09
mnzaki	by short-lived, how short do you mean?	22:10
luke-jr	mnzaki: the CPU is estimated to last under a year at full speed	22:10
luke-jr	even with Gentoo, though, my N900 is usually idle	22:10
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luke-jr	full speed = 600 MHz, not overclocked	22:11
pauly_	im prim pretty sure its blinking green so idk	22:11
luke-jr	overclocked obviously will rapidly degrade it	22:11
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kerio	it's all a scam so you'll buy the new, faster meego device!	22:12
SpeedEvil	No I won't.	22:13
SpeedEvil	I'm running my n900 for the next 4 years at least.	22:13
MNZ	neither will I	22:13
kerio	me neither	22:13
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MNZ	I'm going down with my n900.	22:13
luke-jr	I'll buy whatever device fits my needs, regardless of what company makes it or what OS is ships	22:13
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nox-	yeah same here	22:14
kerio	gee, i just like shiny toys	22:14
luke-jr	and nothing really has since Sharp's Zaurus SL-C* line	22:14
kerio	:\|	22:14
nox-	and also, yes raid is no susbstitute for backup	22:14
luke-jr	so I'm very curious about their new IS01	22:14
kerio	nox-: otoh, backup is not a substitute for RAID	22:15
kerio	:)	22:15
tobis87	luke-jr: No, surely not... Through I sometimes think about the future... How will they look at the devices we use today. Consider you go, 20 years back in time with a sdhc card with a size 16gb. What had they thought of it.	22:15
kerio	RAID is meant to improve performance and uptime	22:15
luke-jr	kerio: RAID is just a cheap alternative to true redundancy.	22:15
nox-	kerio, yep	22:15
RST38h	Is it me, or have Extras* gone mad?	22:15
luke-jr	even for uptime, RAID can't handle a power supply failure, for example	22:15
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RST38h	I am getting report of severla updated packages (including numptyphysics) but trying to update them returns "file size mismatch"	22:16
luke-jr	if you really need uptime guarantees, run two servers on a round-robin in Europe and USA	22:16
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* SpeedEvil segments luke-jr.		22:18
MNZ	luke-jr, lets see your 'uptime guarantee' hold up when nuclear war breaks out! HA!	22:19
luke-jr	MNZ: if I need it to survive that, I could handle it… ;)	22:20
luke-jr	in that case, you put them in a secured facility underwater, with some kind of fuses on the network connection to suppress the EMP	22:20
luke-jr	and you have a minimum 3 servers :p	22:20
MNZ	of course all internet communication is now controlled by the govt and cut off so it doesn't really matter	22:21
MNZ	oh, and your users are dead	22:21
SpeedEvil	http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/University-of-Michigan-nanoresonators/	22:22
SpeedEvil	Interesting - displays without polarisers	22:22
tobis87	MNZ: The satellites should still work, if they don't use a-sat's against communications. Depends, don't know how much MAD is considered today.	22:25
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crashanddie	"British Airways apologized to passengers after an emergency message warning they were about to crash into the sea was played by mistake."	22:26
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satmd	lol	22:27
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satmd	hai2u2	22:27
tobis87	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-satellite_weapon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction, and the internet was designed for an nuclear war. so it is decentralized.	22:27
nox-	haha crashanddie	22:28
nox-	i wonder if that really was a `mistake' tho...	22:28
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MNZ	tobis87, I know it's decentralised, but when it comes down to the real deal, each country/alliance is going to grab their 'piece' and assume full control of it. Cut off communications with the enemy probably?	22:29
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tobis87	MNZ: Don't know, it depends how long it would take to switch to a secondary system. If you have a first-strike from a nuclear-submarine, I doub they would have enough time. Sure Norad might have enough time to close their big fat door, but to shut down all systems and switch to backup. I don't think so. Since, they still have to communicate with all their units...	22:33
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tobis87	MNZ: But a attack will surely damage a huge percent of the gateways.	22:34
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* satmd test fennec alpha		22:39
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tobis87	MNZ: But we could also discuss if people from mars will land here in the next hundred years. Nuclear weapons are used to prevent war, not to use them. Except, the two bombs on japan, "they were test cases", I would be indeed good for the near east if the iran would have nuclear weapons, because this would balance power with israel again. But now enough on politics.	22:41
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satmd	'test cases'	22:42
tobis87	yes, sorry to harsh	22:42
MNZ	nuclear war is never justified.	22:42
satmd	there were a lot better places from a stratetic point of view	22:42
satmd	they really were used to test effectivity against people	22:43
tobis87	but, at that time no other country had nulear weapons. so only after russia became the second power, the weapons were not usable anymore.	22:43
babsher	nuclear war would destroy civilization	22:43
satmd	also one was enough	22:43
alterego	Depends who's justifying it.	22:43
satmd	true	22:44
MNZ	also, the iran-israel balance, IMHO, is not that simple.... a lot of people, me included, fear that Iran might actually use the bombs	22:44
crashanddie	tobis87: there's only what... 9 root dns servers which would operate in case of a nuclear war?	22:44
luke-jr	tobis87: the two used in Japan really were test cases.	22:44
crashanddie	tobis87: the rest of the root dns servers are hosted in the US	22:45
luke-jr	tobis87: the war was already over when they were dropped	22:45
MNZ	of course if they do it it'd be epicly stupid, because they simply are no match to israel/usa. Never mind the damages from their bomb(s) while iran would be literally wiped off the map	22:45
luke-jr	crashanddie: what does it matter? all the sub-root DNS servers would be dead	22:45
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crashanddie	luke-jr: all of them? Would they?	22:45
luke-jr	MNZ: I'd prefer Iran did use the bombs.	22:45
MNZ	luke-jr, ?	22:46
luke-jr	MNZ: Israel deserves it at this point.	22:46
luke-jr	actually, I might be exaggerating a little…	22:46
crashanddie	let's not get into who deserves what	22:46
luke-jr	arguably nobody deserves nukes	22:46
luke-jr	crashanddie: all the ones relevant to the US. and as you said, Europe has its own	22:47
MNZ	luke-jr, imho israel deserves a bit of spanking, but not nukes. And like I said, iran would most probably seize to exist if they used even just one bomb	22:47
luke-jr	cease*	22:47
crashanddie	cease	22:47
MNZ	woops	22:47
luke-jr	MNZ: this is where you blame the speech recognition, and tell us where to find it	22:47
luke-jr	anyhow, Iran wouldn't cease just so long as they got the US at the same time	22:48
tripzero	the dominion deserves nukes	22:48
tripzero	and i gave it to them last night	22:48
tripzero	them and the zerrg	22:48
luke-jr	sneak EMPs into the military-hosting cities	22:49
luke-jr	wipe out all the US offenses	22:49
MNZ	I'd bet a good sum that the US will know Iran is about to strike several hours before they do	22:49
tripzero	EMPs have to be detonated in the upper atmosphere to be effective	22:50
crashanddie	seriously, I don't mind the theoretical discussions about what would happen in case of nuclear wars, but "attacking" countries specifically is just going to end up in a troll war	22:50
luke-jr	tripzero: they're line of sight. depends on the range you want.	22:50
tobis87	MNZ: It depends on your view. Israel is totaly mitarilised by the US. Try to get the point of view of the counties around israel. I don't live there, so I can only argue about the facts i read. Also the big wall in jerusalem... My view is that israel thinks they can do whatever they want. I mean stopping the ship under flag from turkey. This could have been seen as an act of war against turkey, and turkey is in the nato.....	22:50
luke-jr	tripzero: just get up high in some big commercial building…	22:50
luke-jr	nearby all the military complexes	22:50
SpeedEvil	crashanddie: Unless it's a universally unpopular country.	22:50
crashanddie	I don't think such a thing exists	22:51
SpeedEvil	For example - nigeria. Do we really want all that spam?	22:51
luke-jr	LOL	22:51
crashanddie	SpeedEvil: so a few hundred idiots spamming the world is enough to deserve a nuke?	22:51
tripzero	lol	22:51
crashanddie	nice application of "innocent until proven guilty"	22:51
MNZ	Nuke em I say	22:51
luke-jr	crashanddie: people can get pretty bent out of shape over spam :0	22:51
tripzero	nukes aren't as good as you might think. takes 2 of them to take out a hive cluster these days	22:52
luke-jr	nukes are boring	22:52
luke-jr	if you're going to take over, use EMPs and/or neutrons	22:52
SpeedEvil	brb, collecting shipment of diamonds, that I'm recieving for a modest fee.	22:52
tripzero	lol	22:52
tripzero	SpeedEvil, aka, DiamondSmuggler	22:53
luke-jr	neutron bombs are probably ideal	22:53
luke-jr	just wipes out living beings, leaving all the infra intact	22:53
luke-jr	blow one of them and start moving in…	22:53
luke-jr	lots of jobs for cremators too	22:53
luke-jr	and free iPhones	22:54
babsher	what is the best way to parse argv	22:54
luke-jr	babsher: Perl!	22:54
* luke-jr runs		22:54
babsher	well i am programing in c	22:55
MNZ	Picture this... a huge ass plane with ginormous amps blasting out a nigerian prince's email with a jamaican accent. Then a 'Eat neutrons suckers!' and drop the bombs	22:55
crashanddie	babsher: for (int i = 0; i < argc; i++) { println("%s\n", argv[i]); }	22:55
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babsher	i was trying getopt	22:55
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babsher	but it is giving me errors	22:56
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crashanddie	babsher: yeah, cuz "it's giving me errors" is such a useful way of describing the error	22:58
luke-jr	crashanddie: ++i	22:58
crashanddie	luke-jr: doesn't matter	22:58
luke-jr	crashanddie: doesn't matter in practice, but does in theory!	22:58
crashanddie	luke-jr: erhm, no.	22:59
tripzero	babsher, getOpts	22:59
luke-jr	if your compiler doesn't optimize, and your instruction set doesn't have a post-increment opcode	22:59
tripzero	it's the best way	22:59
crashanddie	luke-jr: the incrementation condition gets evaluated on its own, so post or pre wouldn't matter	22:59
luke-jr	crashanddie: you're assuming basic optimization	23:00
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tripzero	* luke-jr was optimized out	23:00
crashanddie	yeah, this isn't 1986	23:00
luke-jr	:p	23:00
crashanddie	and you're not using assembly to write c	23:00
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luke-jr	and if the code ever gets put into C++, it could have practical problems too :P	23:00
luke-jr	well, except that you're in complete control of 'i' there	23:01
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babsher	well from the few minuets i have spent with getopts i realized that it is garbage	23:02
* luke-jr wonders why C++ doesn't just take "foo[bar++]" and rewrite it as "foo[bar]; ++bar;"		23:02
crashanddie	isn't that exactly what it does?	23:03
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tripzero	yes	23:03
crashanddie	luke-jr: you're in a troll mood, go have a walk and beer outside, I'm buying	23:03
SpeedEvil	Some processors have postincrementing addressing modes	23:03
SpeedEvil	So the explicit form is slower	23:04
babsher	i am sure if you add -O4 the gcc will figure it out	23:04
luke-jr	crashanddie: you don't want me to have a beer.	23:06
luke-jr	trust me.	23:06
crashanddie	a coke then	23:06
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tobis87	i still don't understand why the icc (intel c compiler) is so much faster than gcc.	23:06
luke-jr	tobis87: because it only supports x86 crap	23:07
luke-jr	GCC has a middle layer to support multiple instruction sets	23:07
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MNZ	ok I'm confused. What does 'flashing' actually do?	23:09
tobis87	i only compiled game engines and aircrack with it, but with ipo and pgo it is really fast. you only have to check fp-model source and -fstack-security-check, -static-intel are also nice features.	23:09
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tripzero	tobis87, its not faster in all cases	23:11
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tripzero	from what i hear, it's really good at optimizing tight-loop stuff (like game engines)	23:12
tripzero	but if you were to compile something like firefox in icc, it'd probably be slower	23:12
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tripzero	(if it would compile at all)	23:12
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tobis87	have you tried it with auto-vectorizing, ipo and pgo? it reduces "recompute light" in sauerbraten in one map (nmp8) from 21s to 12,3s.	23:15
tripzero	tobis87, i've never used icc. I'm just relating what others have said on the matter. There's a reason why intel doesn't compile even their own distro using icc	23:16
tripzero	and the fact that it doesn't make everything faster is one of those reasons	23:17
tobis87	just, as an example... there is also an enhanced version of par2, which makes use of the threading building block libary... all cores used.	23:17
tobis87	tripzero: I don't say you should, I would only recommend it for very cpu intensive programs.	23:17
tripzero	yeah	23:18
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tripzero	i think we are saying the same thing	23:18
tobis87	yes	23:18
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MNZ	someone answer me before I brick my n900. I just built a kernel from the sources in scratchbox. Now theoretically I can just drop the package in and install it and everything will be fine and dandy right? or do I HAVE TO use the flasher tool?	23:21
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Stskeeps	always keep a backup	23:22
MNZ	the flasher tool can backup my kernel?	23:23
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lcuk	MNZ, it was more incase it all goes tits up and you need to reflash ;)	23:27
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lcuk	tripzero, did you by chance get any further with libmeegotouch on maemo?	23:37
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tripzero	lcuk, no :(. But i haven't tried in 2 weeks	23:37
lcuk	nod	23:38
tripzero	i wish public obs for maemo worked	23:38
lcuk	hows your app going?	23:38
lcuk	or is that the 2week stoppage too	23:38
tripzero	yes. it's the stoppage as well. It's pretty much done.	23:38
tripzero	it does what it's supposed to do. too bad i can't test it though :(	23:39
tripzero	it runs on my igep board with meego though :)	23:39
tripzero	i'm happy about that	23:39
* lcuk ponders		23:39
lcuk	I need to get the dependency chart together for it lal	23:39
lcuk	all	23:39
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Jaffa	re	23:40
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lcuk	hey Jaffa \o	23:40
Jaffa	X-Fade: seen the req. to get rid of libgio from chinook as well?	23:40
tripzero	i started another app to remote control my car from my phone. but it's just a UI skeleton right now	23:40
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tripzero	need to make the backend properly support stuff	23:41
lcuk	tripzero, thats how lots of apps start	23:41
luke-jr	lcuk: lots of poorly designed apps*	23:41
tripzero	http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/attachments/mp3car-gatherings/59600d1281854847-afk-fest-2010-connected-car-demo-planning-thread-screenshot2.jpg	23:42
luke-jr	apps that begin with UI, probably never see a library/console version	23:42
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tripzero	luke-jr, this ui is designed to talk to a library	23:42
tripzero	which talks to a daemon over dbus	23:43
luke-jr	the way all UIs should be :D	23:43
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* lcuk sees a nice front end liqcalc and a nicer backed osso-calculator-engine and ponders		23:43
tripzero	lol	23:43
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luke-jr	so 10 days, and my N900 is laggy again	23:48
luke-jr	I have info to report!	23:48
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kerio	luke-jr: "works on my machine!"	23:49
luke-jr	in 10 days, hildon-desktop has nearly doubled in memory usage	23:49
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luke-jr	it is now #3 most memory consuming process	23:49
kerio	killall hildon-desktop!	23:49
luke-jr	after hildon-status-menu (#2) and pulseaudio (#1)	23:50
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luke-jr	but those two were consistent in their location	23:50
tripzero	did you add a bunch of widgets to the desktop?	23:50
luke-jr	new 4th place memory waster has come from even lower on the list:	23:50
luke-jr	/usr/bin/mafw-dbus-wrapper mafw-gst-subtitles-renderer	23:50
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luke-jr	tripzero: no	23:50
luke-jr	tripzero: in fact, I suspect my 2 year old deleted some for me	23:50
luke-jr	so anyhow, mafw-gst-subtitles-renderer looks at first glance to be the biggest leak	23:51
luke-jr	from under 20 MB memory to over 40 MB	23:51
luke-jr	hildon-home went from 8 MB to 35 MB	23:52
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tripzero	ew	23:52
tripzero	and yikes	23:52
kerio	haha wait, what	23:52
kerio	pulseaudio?	23:52
luke-jr	osso-connectivity-ui-conndlgs went from under 2 MB to over 20 MB	23:53
luke-jr	kerio: pulseaudio is consistently always the largest memory (ab)user	23:53
luke-jr	consistently around 75 MB	23:53
luke-jr	whether 1 hour or 10 days	23:53
kerio	and how is that not a problem, given the limited amount of RAM?	23:53
luke-jr	kerio: it's a consistent problem :P	23:53
luke-jr	I set out to analyze the lag developed over a period of time	23:54
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luke-jr	trackerd has gone 10 MB -> 16 MB	23:54
tobis87	maybe it's me, but i only need shortcuts, i don't use any widgets and i also don't use multiple screen. through i don't have it on longer than two days.	23:54
mgedmin	I disabled wlan search accidentally; battery life doubled	23:55
lcuk	hmm	23:55
SpeedEvil	RSS!=memory	23:55
lcuk	how often do you drift between Aps?	23:55
SpeedEvil	http://www.selenic.com/smem/ lcuk	23:56
lcuk	mgedmin, I guess the amount of change will depend on how often you drop out of range	23:56
mgedmin	while I'm guessing it's due to my n900 being offline for the whole day	23:56
luke-jr	that seems to be the worst of it	23:56
mgedmin	(there's usually a wlan near me, so my n900 tends to be online)	23:57
kerio	hardware uses battery, news at 11	23:57
lcuk	kerio, stfu, its about which and when and how to mitigate it	23:57
ShadowJK	luke-jr, this is like VSZ, right?	23:57
luke-jr	ShadowJK: size	23:57
ShadowJK	right	23:57
tobis87	how is the swap fragmentation caused anyway? does the kernel forget, to free swap if a program exits?	23:57
lcuk	think apollo 13 ish	23:58
ShadowJK	tobis87, sex	23:58
ShadowJK	um	23:58
ShadowJK	sec.	23:58
ShadowJK	http://enivax.net/jk/kswapd.png	23:58
ShadowJK	This is swap access pattern	23:59
ShadowJK	I recorded the position (y axis) in swap of each write	23:59

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