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| lcuk | qwerty12_N900, i had my hands on an actual n900 last night! | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| * Xisdibik is now jealous of lcuk also | 00:00 | |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk! | 00:00 |
| qwerty12_N900 | lcuk: "actual" being the final thing? =) | 00:00 |
| * GeneralAntilles really wishes for that white lettering. | 00:00 | |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: im downloading the fbreader now, if it scrolls you are going to be in my good books for a very very long time :) | 00:01 |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: and qole of course :) | 00:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, thank qwerty12. | 00:01 |
| lcuk | lol, well one that is marked as n900 yeah | 00:01 |
| lcuk | i had to give it back :'( | 00:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | But wait until he hands over the frickin' libzlib | 00:01 |
| qwerty12_N900 | 09:57pm <qwerty12_N900> General: http://qwerty12.qole.org/libzlibrary_0.10.7-1_armel.deb | 00:01 |
| lcuk | fbreader been updated to scroll?> | 00:02 |
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| qwerty12_N900 | Nope | 00:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12's just a giant tease. | 00:02 |
| qwerty12_N900 | I just needed the effin' volume keys | 00:02 |
| lcuk | is libz the backend format library | 00:02 |
| lcuk | or the ui front end? | 00:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, um, neither? | 00:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's the UI lib | 00:02 |
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| realitygaps | qwerty12: does it scroll? if so you are THE man | 00:03 |
| lcuk | interesting | 00:03 |
| lcuk | fbreader on liqbase o_O | 00:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, it's the reason FBReader is so slow. | 00:03 |
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| lcuk | nahhh theres many other things trasnpiring against it | 00:04 |
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| qwerty12_N900 | realitygaps: No, I did say it only has the volume keys enabled for switching pages. But now that you come to mention it, kinetic would be cool... | 00:04 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, mostly libzlib, though. | 00:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12_N900, way too slow for kinetic. | 00:05 |
| realitygaps | qwerty12_N900: thats what i meant tho :) volume scroll | 00:05 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Ah, yeah, it does that :) | 00:05 |
| lcuk | qwerty12_N900, that was the starting point for liqbase lol | 00:06 |
| lcuk | the proof point | 00:06 |
| realitygaps | qwerty12_N900: does it need the libzlib also? | 00:06 |
| qwerty12_N900 | realitygaps: Yeah, http://qwerty12.qole.org/libzlibrary_0.10.7-1_armel.deb and http://qwerty12.qole.org/fbreader_0.10.7-1_armel.deb should do it | 00:07 |
| Xisdibik | hey qwerty12_N900 no one who got a loaner was from the San Francisco bay area right? | 00:07 |
| qwerty12_N900 | lcuk: Heh, I've just had flashbacks | 00:07 |
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| lcuk | leeeeenucks tag | 00:07 |
| * realitygaps owes qwerty12 a whole bunch of beer! | 00:08 | |
| realitygaps | works great, you have made my phone 10x more useful :) | 00:08 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Xisdibik: No idea, actually | 00:08 |
| qwerty12_N900 | :) | 00:08 |
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| realitygaps | have a long train ride to riga on friday was dreading the stylus tap scrolling for the 700 page book im reading :) | 00:09 |
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| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12_N900, aaaah! Brilliant! | 00:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, you can rebind keys, you know, right? | 00:09 |
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| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, F/R fullscreen/rotate and spacebar for paging. | 00:10 |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: yep but the lack of hardware keys made it annoying | 00:10 |
| realitygaps | had space for full screen and R/L for page turns | 00:10 |
| Xisdibik | qwerty12_N900, I had a horrible nightmare last week, except it was real, I was waiting to transfer from one train to another on my way home from school, and every single person around me had an iphone | 00:10 |
| Proteous | lol | 00:11 |
| Proteous | welcome to my world | 00:11 |
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| mikhas | Xisdibik, horrible | 00:11 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Xisdibik: Ah, in my college, iPhone is the phone of choice. I just want to cry | 00:11 |
| lpotter_ | lemmings | 00:11 |
| Xisdibik | qwerty12_N900, same at my school | 00:11 |
| javispedro | Apple targets students now. | 00:12 |
| Xisdibik | my old old phone like 2 phones ago, was an O2 XDA exec, and when the iphone first came out, people would always ask me "is that an iphone" and i would reply "F*** no its not" | 00:12 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Why cry? Who cares what someone else uses? | 00:12 |
| lpotter_ | where I work, everyone has Nokia's | 00:12 |
| Xisdibik | GiantTalkingCow, because its sad to see how stupid people are in society/ | 00:12 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Xisdibik: What about owning an iPhone makes 'em stupid? Most people have limited needs that it addresses. | 00:13 |
| Xisdibik | GiantTalkingCow, because there are other phones that do the exact same thing for hte exact same price, but are better? | 00:13 |
| mikhas | most people want fart apps | 00:13 |
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| mikhas | only the iphones delives | 00:13 |
| mikhas | delivers* | 00:13 |
| Xisdibik | mikhas, point taken | 00:13 |
| GiantTalkingCow | There are plenty of other apps out there. Lots of 'em sell well. Like my GF's med school anatomy app, for example. Useful as hell. | 00:14 |
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| Xisdibik | also GiantTalkingCow most of the people out their dont get the iphone for its functionality, they get it because "its the iphone, i gotta have it to be cool" | 00:16 |
| realitygaps | ive had a bunch of people say 'oh, cool iphone' about the n900 | 00:16 |
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| realitygaps | then i pulled out the keyboard :) | 00:16 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Xisdibik: That's not what anyone I know who owns one has said. | 00:16 |
| Xisdibik | GiantTalkingCow, then your lucky? | 00:16 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Or you're unlucky. | 00:16 |
| Xisdibik | nope, im pretty lucky most of the time, so i doubt it | 00:17 |
| Xisdibik | :) | 00:17 |
| qwerty12_N900 | realitygaps: Did they die in shock? Buttons? Lots of them? On a phone? :p | 00:17 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Well, it may be an age thing. How old are you? | 00:17 |
| qwerty12_N900 | *of | 00:17 |
| Xisdibik | 24 | 00:17 |
| Xisdibik | GiantTalkingCow, could be a location thing as well, where do you live? | 00:18 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Nah, can't be that then. I'm only 4 years older and most of my friends are in their 20s or early 30s. Bad luck, I say again. | 00:18 |
| GiantTalkingCow | In San Francisco, California. West coast of North America. | 00:18 |
| Xisdibik | same place i am :P | 00:18 |
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| Xisdibik | Im downtown as we speak at work :P | 00:19 |
| Xisdibik | most of the people who buy iphones to be cool are the so cal university students though :P | 00:19 |
| GiantTalkingCow | I have the day off. :) | 00:19 |
| Xisdibik | i have thursday off :) | 00:19 |
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| Xisdibik | are you getting the n900 GiantTalkingCow ? | 00:19 |
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| realitygaps | qwerty12: they asked wow when did apple add a keyboard. they died in shock when i said it wasnt apple | 00:19 |
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| GiantTalkingCow | No idea, really. I think I'll wait a little while and see how the app support is. That said, I love stuff with a physical keyboard. | 00:20 |
| realitygaps | qwerty12: but one guy was like 'oh my god is that an n900 let me see let me see' | 00:20 |
| Ceron^ | http://www.tek-9.org/news/iwnet_allegedly_spreading_a_trojan_virus-2173.html | 00:20 |
| qwerty12_N900 | realitygaps: "when did apple add a keyboard" - now that just makes me giggle | 00:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, I've only had iPhone misidentifications twice. | 00:20 |
| GiantTalkingCow | What I don't get is why people think that everything is an iPhone. There are like 2 million touchscreen phones out there. | 00:21 |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: ive had it every time but one. mostly on public transport or in clubs/bars | 00:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | GiantTalkingCow, for the same reason lots of people buy them. | 00:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Because they're clueless. | 00:21 |
| GiantTalkingCow | It just occurred to me that the n900 might be a nice platform for emulators. (we were having an old games discussion in another channel) | 00:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Erm | 00:23 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Unlike the no-keyboard phones, controls are a cinch. | 00:23 |
| Stskeeps | GiantTalkingCow: what rock have you been hiding under? | 00:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://fms.komkon.org/ | 00:23 |
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| frals | Ceron^: im quite certain thats just the downloaded patch for the game, and avira reporting a false positive | 00:24 |
| ifreq | moin | 00:24 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Stskeeps: The one were I've been studying for the bar exam for a while, making me not so up to date on all sorts of stuff. I just found out some black guy was elected president last week. | 00:24 |
| javispedro | see? that means we STILL don't have enough ads about n900 classic emulators! | 00:24 |
| Xisdibik | Stskeeps, Granite, why do you ask? ;) | 00:24 |
| qwerty12_N900 | javispedro: Add a fart function to DrNokSnes | 00:24 |
| Xisdibik | ^ this | 00:25 |
| tbf | i wonder if those classic emulators make much sense, considering the small keys | 00:25 |
| mavhc | every mp3 player is an ipod, make sense than every keyboardless smartphone is an iphone, and every keyboarded smartphone is a blackberry | 00:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | tbf, Wiimote. | 00:25 |
| realitygaps | GiantTalkingCow: some of the emus are nice already, im looking for a bt joypad or something to use them to the max | 00:25 |
| * javispedro wonders too many things, but enjoys the ride either way | 00:25 | |
| tbf | could not even imagine how to control those emulators with the accelerator | 00:25 |
| realitygaps | was looking at a wiimote but they are pretty pricey | 00:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | mavhc, I see more Moto Qs than Blackberrys | 00:25 |
| andre__ | VDVsx, GeneralAntilles: Misha(s): don't know him. Mikhas = My Company. | 00:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, not that pricey. | 00:26 |
| javispedro | qwerty12_N900: ssht! you're going to remind me that I need to work on it! ;) | 00:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | andre__, still not sure where VDVsx came up with the other guy. :P | 00:26 |
| Xisdibik | GeneralAntilles, i am actualy so happy i have a wii when i saw that wiimote video | 00:26 |
| javispedro | wiimote pricey? have you look at how much the n900 costs? | 00:26 |
| andre__ | maybe I missed something in the backlog | 00:26 |
| VDVsx | GeneralAntilles, because he's very active in tmo these days, my bad | 00:27 |
| mavhc | GeneralAntilles: people tell me they've bought a blackberry and show me a windows phone | 00:27 |
| realitygaps | they wanted 45euro for wiimote here in estonia | 00:27 |
| * qwerty12_N900 ticks Estonia off his list | 00:27 | |
| realitygaps | javispedro: i dont know if i would have been able to afford an n900 right now, was lucky enough to be at the amsterdam summit | 00:27 |
| GiantTalkingCow | realitygaps: That's overpriced, to say the least. | 00:27 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ah, sucks, it's $35 USD here. | 00:27 |
| realitygaps | lucky americans, although i wouldnt give up public transport for cheap tech :) or maybe.,.... | 00:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, regional issue. | 00:28 |
| realitygaps | maybe it'll be cheaper in berlin, im heading there on the weekend | 00:28 |
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| Xisdibik | so wait GiantTalkingCow are you buying the n900, or just like the platform? | 00:28 |
| qwerty12_N900 | javispedro: Yeah, finish adding the shrine to Jobs first... | 00:28 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Xisdibik: I don't know at this point. | 00:28 |
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| GiantTalkingCow | Why is it that I confuse Estonia with Latvia so often? The names sound nothing alike, nor do the capital names. | 00:29 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: Linux-OMAP supported N810 at varying degrees until 2.6.30-rc8; after that, support was removed because the code became incompatible | 00:29 |
| realitygaps | GiantTalkingCow: im actually right on the border between the two at the moment | 00:30 |
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| timeless_mbp | luke-jr: it was dropped? heh | 00:30 |
| realitygaps | GiantTalkingCow: i think its since they are both in the baltics perhaps? i confused latvia and linthuania a lot before i visited one of them | 00:30 |
| luke-jr | timeless_mbp: thankfully Kalle Vallo (sp?) is updating it for mainline, but can only do so off Nokia-paid time -.- | 00:31 |
| realitygaps | qwerty12_N900: you going to post the fbreader to t.m.o? im sure some other people will be ecstatic | 00:31 |
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| qwerty12_N900 | realitygaps: Nah, it was just a quick hack | 00:32 |
| GiantTalkingCow | realitygaps: I suppose. But I know where they are, they sound nothing alike, and what's more the languages are nothing alike. (seeing as Estonian's related to Finnish and Hungarian) | 00:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12_N900, at least send the patch to their tracker. Maybe it'll spur some real effort for the Stars program. | 00:33 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Generalantilles: Can't be arsed to run diff; I just shoved up the tarball on qwerty12.qole.org | 00:34 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Generalantilles: What we really need is a way to shock people over the internet... | 00:34 |
| Stskeeps | hmm, seems like ChromeOS components have been leaked | 00:35 |
| realitygaps | GiantTalkingCow: they really are nothing alike... I prefer estonia somehow, but ive spent a lot more time here so probably biased | 00:35 |
| Stskeeps | http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/chrome/browser/resources/about_os_credits.html?revision=32096 | 00:35 |
| range | Stskeeps: The bling? | 00:35 |
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| Stskeeps | clutter, connman, slim | 00:36 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Shocking people over the internet is easy. Tell them that whatever celebrity chick they have a crush on is actually a man. Natalie Portman, for example. Or Jessica Alba. | 00:36 |
| javispedro | connman, I knew! :) | 00:36 |
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| realitygaps | qwerty12_N900: its just a small hack, but i was trying to get that working for a week on scratchbox already | 00:36 |
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| Stskeeps | more curiously: tpm-emulator | 00:36 |
| realitygaps | that fbreader/libz should replace the one in the freemantle repos i think | 00:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12_N900, I've been saying that for years. :P | 00:37 |
| Stskeeps | google next up on 'evil drm'? :> | 00:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Chrome OS is so pointless. | 00:37 |
| RST38h | qwerty12: As far as I care, dipping people into shit over internet is sufficient, and it is already possible | 00:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, except for harvesting people's data. | 00:38 |
| realitygaps | but if it has 'google' written on it it will probably gain traction. im shocked how many linux users i know are running chrome | 00:38 |
| realitygaps | and not the iron version | 00:38 |
| RST38h | so what is it? another castrated linux with google chrome on top? | 00:38 |
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| GiantTalkingCow | GeneralAntilles: Why's that? | 00:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's everything you need to make a web browser into an OS. | 00:39 |
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| javispedro | like, an OS. | 00:40 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: basically | 00:40 |
| Stskeeps | as far as i can tell :P | 00:40 |
| RST38h | Sts: umgh. | 00:40 |
| Stskeeps | oh, and -intel video driver | 00:40 |
| javispedro | not as castrated as android though I think. | 00:40 |
| qwerty12_N900 | That component list is a joke | 00:41 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N900: yeah, it's of course not complete | 00:41 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Man, it's interesting to see what passes as an OS nowadays... | 00:41 |
| RST38h | qwerty: Palm WebOS does | 00:42 |
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| RST38h | ok, sleep. | 00:42 |
| mavhc | it's pointless because everyone likes looking after their OS, keeping it secure, updated, etc? | 00:44 |
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| wazd | http://www.themaemo.com lol | 00:49 |
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| Stskeeps | that any idiot could put up something with a CMS was a bad idea.. | 00:52 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 00:52 |
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| * qwerty12_N900 mutters something about the goggles not helping... | 00:54 | |
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| b-man17 | Stskeeps: almost done with the gui part of the new Mer Installer btw; got a couple of screenshots here: http://b-man.xceleo.org/images/mer/ ;) | 01:02 |
| Stskeeps | good, did you add error checking yet? :P | 01:02 |
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| b-man17 | i´m working on it ;) | 01:03 |
| Stskeeps | you need to test every single possibility :P | 01:03 |
| Stskeeps | and code path | 01:03 |
| b-man17 | i know :P | 01:03 |
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| lardman | night all | 01:10 |
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| Shapeshifter | mh. will there be a way to globally adjust font size? | 01:12 |
| javispedro | I really don't know what people see on the N900 to open so many fansites... | 01:14 |
| derf | It's a consumer product. This is what consumers do. | 01:14 |
| javispedro | open fansites and be excited even without exactly knowing what the product does ? :) | 01:15 |
| derf | Yes. | 01:15 |
| javispedro | I though that was the case. :) | 01:15 |
| derf | They've seen advertisements. What more is there to know? | 01:15 |
| derf | Advertisements would never lie. | 01:15 |
| Anpr | heheh :D | 01:16 |
| Ave | N900 is *the* nokia product of all times, a true flagship, messiah and whatever | 01:17 |
| Ave | it that doesnt deserve fanboyism, what does | 01:17 |
| realitygaps | my mates in Am*dam were calling it 'the jesus phone' | 01:17 |
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| GeneralAntilles | VDVsx, ping? | 01:17 |
| Ave | iphöynkilla | 01:17 |
| * javispedro was surprised when long time ago I had to tell someone "it won't run his symbian apps" which is something he assumed. his answer? "ah, what a pity. wouldn't you know when it's shipping?" | 01:18 | |
| Ave | so, in reality, nobody has a production unit in their hands yet? | 01:18 |
| VDVsx | GeneralAntilles, pong | 01:19 |
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| realitygaps | Ave: doesnt look like anyone has one yet | 01:22 |
| Ave | :] | 01:22 |
| Ave | the anticipation seems to be so great its almost derailing earth from the orbit | 01:22 |
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| GeneralAntilles | VDVsx, mind if I room with you? | 01:22 |
| Klowner | I thought the guy that won one at one of the maemo meetup things at one of the nokia stores, or something | 01:23 |
| VDVsx | GeneralAntilles, nop :) | 01:23 |
| Klowner | I got to touch one on Sunday, but I dunno if it was a production unit | 01:23 |
| * VDVsx is testing the maemo SDK noob edition ;) | 01:24 | |
| qwerty12_N900 | VDVsx: Ah, good job. They're waiting for feedback from their target audience | 01:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, except for the cool cats. ;) | 01:25 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N900, ehehe | 01:25 |
| javispedro | maemo sdk noob edition? interesting | 01:25 |
| VDVsx | now anyone can install it, good job nokia | 01:25 |
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| VDVsx | javispedro, = gui installer | 01:25 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Is that the Python script thing? | 01:25 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Yep | 01:25 |
| javispedro | aaaah | 01:25 |
| VDVsx | it creates shortcuts and everything | 01:26 |
| javispedro | but I guess it's the same old evil. | 01:26 |
| javispedro | still disables vdso | 01:26 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N900, yes, PyQt | 01:26 |
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| VDVsx | oh ironic | 01:26 |
| qwerty12_N900 | :) | 01:26 |
| VDVsx | seems that Pyside isn't ready yet | 01:27 |
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| Klowner | stupid amazon and their mistletoe icon, taunting me.. they must want me to eat it and die | 01:29 |
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| wiretapped | does anybody here know who some of the independent retailers referred to in that nokia press release are? | 01:30 |
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| * wiretapped wonders if there is a store in SF where I can buy one | 01:31 | |
| Tester | like amazon ? | 01:31 |
| Klowner | wiretapped: I wandered into the nokia store in Chicago on Sunday and they said "a couple weeks" | 01:32 |
| Ave | holy shit | 01:32 |
| Ave | people are gonna go mental | 01:32 |
| Ave | rumors after rumors, someone oughta confirm someething | 01:33 |
| Klowner | I also saw them say "a couple weeks" to at least 3 other people that wandered in during the 15 minutes I was there | 01:33 |
| Klowner | so, I foresee riots in a couple weeks | 01:33 |
| Ave | but do they really nkow | 01:33 |
| wiretapped | newegg's date went from 11/14 to 11/30 at some point a while ago | 01:34 |
| wiretapped | amazon has no date | 01:34 |
| Klowner | my amazon pre order says it'll arrive after Christmas | 01:34 |
| Klowner | with a cute little mistletoe icon to taunt me | 01:34 |
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| * wiretapped has had the same LG clamshell since before the Nokia 770 was announced | 01:35 | |
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| * wiretapped is ready for an always-on internet tablet | 01:36 | |
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| wiretapped | more than ready, in fact | 01:36 |
| Ave | always on, if you have charger handy | 01:36 |
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| wiretapped | or a source of usb power... | 01:36 |
| Klowner | hand-crank! | 01:36 |
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| * wiretapped has charged his 770 and N800 with a hand crank | 01:37 | |
| Klowner | I need one of those | 01:37 |
| wiretapped | it didn't work well | 01:37 |
| Ave | haha | 01:37 |
| Ave | oh dear | 01:37 |
| Klowner | what if you pay a toddler to crank it? | 01:37 |
| Proteous | that's illegal in most contries | 01:38 |
| wiretapped | when the device had turned off from low battery... the handcrank was able to boot it up and keep it running, but after ~30 minutes of charging it ran for less than 10 after stopping | 01:38 |
| wiretapped | so, not particularly practical | 01:38 |
| Ave | you obviously crunk too slowly | 01:39 |
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| GeneralAntilles | wiretapped, need a treadmill. | 01:41 |
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| Ave | I have a dwarf hamster, I hooked up a bicycle speedometer to her wheel | 01:45 |
| Ave | she runs 10 km a night | 01:45 |
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| Ave | think of the possibilities for recharging | 01:45 |
| mikhas | I applaud your scientific approach | 01:46 |
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| mikhas | 10km seems a lot | 01:46 |
| Ave | maybe even more | 01:46 |
| Ave | the stupid meter powers off after 4 minute idle | 01:46 |
| mikhas | and you made absolutely sure that the hamster did not hack the speedometer? | 01:46 |
| Ave | you can never know | 01:47 |
| Ave | http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2711/4017763294_6f42ec9225_o.jpg | 01:47 |
| Ave | there she is, eating a sunflower seed | 01:47 |
| mikhas | she looks clever ... | 01:47 |
| Ave | OR devising a cunning plan to take over the world | 01:47 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N900, do you know any workaround to open the 'session bus' in maemo in a app running with sudo permissions ? | 01:48 |
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| Shapeshifter | Mh, I just realised that for people not familiar with linux and/or the command line, scratchbox could be quite a pain to set up. A few people are complaining on the forum. I think maemo would benefit quite a bit if the SDK was easier to use. I personally don't care, but I guess it should be on a roadmap of sorts. | 01:50 |
| derf | That's what the vmware images are for. | 01:51 |
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| ShadowJK | The last image i tried didn't have anything pre-setup... Though the website referenced in the readme had some instructions on which instructions tell you which instructions to follow | 01:52 |
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| wiretapped | VDVsx: iirc you can set DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS ? | 01:53 |
| wiretapped | not sure if there is another step necessary too | 01:53 |
| Shapeshifter | derf: ah. Are they in some obvious place? People are complaining about lack of clarity. Well, when I was looking for what to do, I came to the "install the SDK on 32-bit debian" wiki article, which worked fine for me | 01:54 |
| derf | Shapeshifter: Google? | 01:54 |
| derf | The Diablo ones were pretty easy to find. | 01:55 |
| derf | No idea about Fremantle; haven't looked. | 01:55 |
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| Shapeshifter | derf: I'm talking about a non-maemo-regular looking for information. For example, if you google for "maemo 5 skd install" there's a whole lot about the beta SDK with http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_sdk/ being the first hit, and on that page for example, there's no link saying "HEY the FINAL is out, so ignore this" | 01:57 |
| Shapeshifter | then one clicks on "Maemo SDK installer" and what he gets is an .sh file to download... | 01:58 |
| mikhas | Shapeshifter, ideally there would be some remote virtual boxen that windows users could use, no? | 01:58 |
| mikhas | flashed after each use | 01:58 |
| Shapeshifter | So, I'd say for your "typical windows iphone programmer" it's quite hard to get the SDK running. There's no straightforward way of knowing. | 01:58 |
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| Shapeshifter | on that page, there's even no reference at all to the final SDK, everything beta, at the right in the menu, only if you go to SDK releases there's a link to the nokia final SDK page | 01:59 |
| VDVsx | wirelessdreamer, that's probably related to the SDK, this is another issue I think | 02:00 |
| Shapeshifter | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo5_Final_Installation and here there is _no_ reference at all to the vbox images | 02:00 |
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| Shapeshifter | and this page is referenced on the nokia SDK download page | 02:00 |
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| * realitygaps reading away on fbreader thanks qwerty12_N900 for fixing the volume scrolling | 02:12 | |
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| derf | VDVsx: I'm pretty sure what wiretapped said was right. | 02:13 |
| derf | Or I've mis-understood your question. | 02:13 |
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| VDVsx | derf, basically if I run the code as user or root it works, but if I run the code as user with sudo permissions it fails to connect to the session bus, but it connects to the system bus | 02:15 |
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| derf | I guess I don't know what you mean by "user with sudo permissions". | 02:16 |
| VDVsx | derf, yeah, maemo is weird, like this "sudo app name" (with the respective sudoers file in place) | 02:17 |
| derf | Okay, that's still running it as root. | 02:18 |
| derf | But with a fresh environment. | 02:18 |
| derf | You still need to set that DBUS environment variable. | 02:18 |
| VDVsx | derf, gonna try to export it | 02:19 |
| derf | E.g., | 02:19 |
| derf | pid=`ps | grep '/usr/bin/maemo[-]launcher' | awk '{print $1}'` | 02:19 |
| derf | export DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=`/bin/grep \^DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS= /proc/$pid/environ | sed -e 's/DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=//'` | 02:19 |
| derf | dbus-monitor --session | 02:20 |
| derf | signal sender=org.freedesktop.DBus -> dest=:1.17 path=/org/freedesktop/DBus; interface=org.freedesktop.DBus; member=NameAcquired string ":1.17" | 02:20 |
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| derf | Whereas if I don't do the export first I get | 02:20 |
| derf | dbus-monitor --session | 02:20 |
| derf | process 1464: D-Bus library appears to be incorrectly set up; | 02:20 |
| derf | (etc. etc.) | 02:20 |
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| VDVsx | derf, I found a shorter solution in the maemo docs, but can get it to work: eval $(dbus-launch --sh-syntax) | 02:59 |
| VDVsx | export BUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS | 02:59 |
| VDVsx | export DBUS_SESSION_BUS_PID | 02:59 |
| derf | Uh, that would start a new session. | 03:01 |
| derf | Which I don't think is what you want. | 03:01 |
| derf | I mean DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS appears to be hard-coded to unix:path=/tmp/session_bus_socket | 03:02 |
| derf | If you want something "shorter". | 03:02 |
| derf | I was just generalizing what I use on other systems: find a known process that's connected to the session bus and get the address from its environment. | 03:03 |
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| derf | But as long as it remains hard-coded to that same value, export DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS='unix:path=/tmp/session_bus_socket' should be sufficient. | 03:04 |
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| VDVsx | derf, let me try | 03:05 |
| VDVsx | derf, still getting: "Failed to open connection to session message bus: (null)" :( | 03:09 |
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| derf | And what's the commands you're running? | 03:09 |
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| VDVsx | tried to export the hardcode path, but probably it failed retrieving the path | 03:11 |
| derf | No, I mean the exact commands. | 03:11 |
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| VDVsx | derf, export DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=unix:abstract=/tmp/dbus-BOe5BcpUpl,guid=11e1360c2e28da0ca65812af0000023b | 03:14 |
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| derf | Huh? | 03:15 |
| derf | That looks like it comes from a desktop, not the device. | 03:15 |
| VDVsx | derf, nop, from here:Nokia-N900-42-11:~# | 03:16 |
| derf | I guess they changed the hard-code path on the N900. | 03:16 |
| derf | Which is why I gave you the first approach. | 03:16 |
| derf | But anyway, that's only one command. | 03:16 |
| derf | How are you running the actual program? | 03:17 |
| VDVsx | sudo app name | 03:17 |
| VDVsx | it's a python script | 03:17 |
| derf | You're just going export ... ; sudo app name? | 03:17 |
| VDVsx | I did the export inside the app, probably is the cause of the problem | 03:18 |
| derf | No, it would have to be done inside the app. | 03:18 |
| derf | Or in a wrapper script invoked by sudo. | 03:18 |
| derf | I don't know that export is the correct thing in Python, though. | 03:19 |
| derf | I would expect it to be setenv or something similar. | 03:19 |
| derf | But I don't really know Python. | 03:19 |
| VDVsx | I'm doing os.system(export ...) | 03:19 |
| derf | Yeah, okay, that doesn't actually do anything. | 03:20 |
| VDVsx | so should work as in the shell | 03:20 |
| derf | It starts a shell with its own environment, in which you set the variable, and then that shell immediately exits. | 03:20 |
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| derf | And the parent process (the Python script) is unaffected. | 03:20 |
| VDVsx | bah, so I should use os.putenv | 03:21 |
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| derf | That sounds promising. | 03:21 |
| VDVsx | lol | 03:21 |
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| VDVsx | it sets environment variables | 03:22 |
| Shapeshifter | phew.... roaming should get cheaper damn it. A lot cheaper. I get 1GB traffic in my country for 29 bucks, while 1MB of traffic costs 5-15bucks when romaing. | 03:22 |
| Shapeshifter | insane prices | 03:22 |
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| VDVsx | derf, ah now the error changed, so the var is affected | 03:25 |
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| derf | If you control the Python script, another simple way to get the right value to it should be to pass it on the command-line. | 03:29 |
| mzz | VDVsx: os.environ probably, actually. | 03:29 |
| mzz | VDVsx: (check the docs, modifying os.environ affects the actual environment too, but calling os.putenv directly doesn't update os.environ, iirc) | 03:30 |
| derf | Anyway, time for me to go. | 03:30 |
| mzz | also, if this is about sudo: sudo's env stripping is configurable | 03:30 |
| VDVsx | mzz, I know, but putenv is enough in this case, I think | 03:32 |
| VDVsx | mzz, what to do meant by configurable, didn't get it :P | 03:32 |
| VDVsx | *do you | 03:33 |
| mzz | VDVsx: man sudoers, it mentions env | 03:33 |
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| pupnik_ | US soldiers, you CAN get out of the army! Read Ayn Rand and discover why aggression is wrong! If you learn theÃlessons, you CAN GET OUT of the US Military!!! | 03:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | pupnik_, US military is all-volunteer. :P | 03:52 |
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| VDVsx | lol | 04:03 |
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| dmj726 | the risks of open source conversation is funny | 04:11 |
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| GAN900 | dmj726, didn't you hear? It steals your credit card information and beats your dog. | 04:47 |
| GiantTalkingCow | What does? | 04:47 |
| fernando_ | OO.o? | 04:47 |
| Klowner | my neighbor? | 04:48 |
| fernando_ | your neighbor using OO.o? | 04:48 |
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| dmj726 | Oh yeah...I'm so worried about the inherent insecurities in Ubuntu and how all the FOSS apps in the repos are going to turn out to be trojans. | 04:48 |
| GiantTalkingCow | I'm worried that Ubuntu is dog slow compared to decent distros, and yet gets the lion's share of media attention despite sorta sucking. Thankfully, tomorrow's Google OS announcement will steal its thunder but good. | 04:50 |
| fernando_ | will it? | 04:50 |
| dmj726 | um...ChromeOS?...erm :-/ | 04:50 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Yes, that. | 04:51 |
| dmj726 | what's good about it? | 04:51 |
| fernando_ | will chrome OS play flash video out of the box? :D | 04:51 |
| fernando_ | (kidding lol) | 04:51 |
| GiantTalkingCow | No one knows. But it's Google branded, meaning it'll have millions of people looking at it no matter what. | 04:52 |
| GiantTalkingCow | It might even be good. | 04:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's a browser that's pretending to be an OS | 05:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | It'll be nothing of the sort. | 05:00 |
| GiantTalkingCow | We'll see soon enough. After all, Windows is a waste of space pretending to be an OS, and that's not stopped people from buying it. | 05:02 |
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| fernando_ | microsoft should pull a google and make the next version of windows just IE9 | 05:03 |
| fernando_ | I mean, er... | 05:03 |
| realitygaps | lol | 05:04 |
| microlith | GiantTalkingCow: if ChromeOS is anything like I expect, it won't. It'll just be Android for PCs. | 05:04 |
| microlith | Also, ubuntu is great if you don't like futzing around with configs and stuff. | 05:05 |
| GiantTalkingCow | microlith: For a lot of people, that'll be great. I wouldn't mind running something like that on a netbook. | 05:05 |
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| microlith | meh | 05:05 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Ubuntu is Linux done wrong, imo. Not because I'm against simplification at all, I just think that re-inventing the wheel and then taking years to get it right isn't a good direction for a desktop distro. | 05:05 |
| realitygaps | microlith: ubuntu is great when it works, and sucky when it doesnt | 05:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | microlith, for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people that's great. | 05:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | In fact, that's the only optio.n | 05:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | microlith, it'll be less than Android. At least Android has applications. | 05:06 |
| microlith | I wouldn't care to use it for the same reason that I'm after Maemo, that it particularly it's not Java | 05:06 |
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| microlith | GiantTalkingCow: what else was doing what ubuntu does years ago? | 05:06 |
| realitygaps | pclinuxos, mandriva, suse? | 05:07 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Years ago? Corel Linux. Like a decade ago. | 05:07 |
| GiantTalkingCow | It's still one of the most usable Linux distros I've ever tried. | 05:07 |
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| microlith | hmm | 05:09 |
| microlith | I spent most of my time battling redhat and gentoo | 05:09 |
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| GiantTalkingCow | Funny as it sounds, I think that Linux for the desktop was in some ways better off years ago, due to the GUIs being slightly more sensible. Now we have stuff like the upcoming Gnome-Shell. | 05:11 |
| * GiantTalkingCow shudders. | 05:11 | |
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| pupnik_ | maemo, go home | 05:15 |
| pupnik_ | the internet is over | 05:15 |
| pupnik_ | secret meeting in south korea | 05:15 |
| microlith | you beat the end boss? | 05:15 |
| pupnik_ | deep packet inspection for copyright holders | 05:16 |
| fernando_ | The Man has won | 05:16 |
| pupnik_ | we failed | 05:16 |
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| realitygaps | i think nokia will manage to mess it up... they seem to be good cop/bad cop with the community at times | 05:25 |
| microlith | they're not winning fans with the release of the N900 :> | 05:26 |
| fernando_ | yet why oh why can't we distance ourselves from them? they're like an abusive husband, and we keep coming back for more | 05:26 |
| fernando_ | (wait what) | 05:26 |
| realitygaps | they had many fans when they were about to release but ppl are getting a bit pissed now... | 05:26 |
| microlith | realitygaps: I placed my order on sept. 3rd, and between the headset incompatibility and the no-info it's quite annoying | 05:27 |
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| realitygaps | but no-one else is making even relatively open hackable systems that i would look at | 05:27 |
| fernando_ | (2 weeks, people overreact too much) | 05:27 |
| microlith | that said, I'm not gonna stress over it | 05:27 |
| microlith | realitygaps: very true | 05:27 |
| realitygaps | its worth the wait imho, i love this n900 its what ive been waiting for since the psions and zauruses | 05:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, a few hundreds of idiots with too much free time are getting "pissed". | 05:28 |
| fernando_ | yes | 05:28 |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: i think they missed the critical mass point where everyone was talking about the n900 tho | 05:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | In the large scale of things it's pretty meaningless. | 05:28 |
| realitygaps | also a bit lame that testing roms arent being pushed to the ppl who will properly test them but kept internal | 05:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Meh, it wont matter much in the large scale. | 05:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, that's not a trivial thing to do. | 05:29 |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: probably wont matter that much. but i still dont understand why thats not so trivial | 05:30 |
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| realitygaps | its not like we are noobs or anything | 05:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, because there's 3rd-party and proprietary software involved. | 05:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Shipping uncertified Flash to consumers isn't an easy thing to do. | 05:30 |
| fernando_ | one day, when humanity is long gone, aliens will come to earth, find google data centers, read about our civilization and thing "man, nokia sure pissed off people by delaying this thing for a couple weeks" | 05:30 |
| realitygaps | thats true didnt think about the flash | 05:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nokia's also got their own first-party stuff. | 05:31 |
| realitygaps | but week 46 release has flash 10? | 05:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Erm? | 05:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Flash 10 was announced for next year. | 05:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Each release has to be certified. | 05:31 |
| realitygaps | exactly, but some ppl have the week 46 rom already | 05:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | People with NDA's. :) | 05:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or people who know people violating NDAs. | 05:32 |
| realitygaps | ah ok, thx for pointing that out | 05:32 |
| realitygaps | i avoid nda's like the plague | 05:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then you wont be testing any pre-release firmware for the time being. ;) | 05:32 |
| realitygaps | i guess not. but i never saw a sane NDA :) | 05:33 |
| realitygaps | and surely NDA would prohibit posting screenshots like some ppl have done | 05:33 |
| realitygaps | i just get this feeling sometimes that nokia is playing us all :) | 05:33 |
| realitygaps | because they know we are all hooked already | 05:34 |
| realitygaps | at the same time they do cool stuff like the loaners | 05:34 |
| realitygaps | good cop/bad cop feeling...... | 05:34 |
| realitygaps | but they seem to have their reasons | 05:34 |
| realitygaps | as you've pointed out | 05:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | Er yeah | 05:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | They aren't playing us | 05:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | There are just business realities that tend to escape the average open source advocate. :) | 05:37 |
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| realitygaps | its true, once you are deep in the FOSS world you lose sight of business realities and fixate on the freedom i guess | 05:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | and the freedom isn't something big companies with boards, shareholders and lots of employees can just dive right into. | 05:39 |
| realitygaps | very true | 05:39 |
| realitygaps | honestly they do a better job than sharp did with the zaurus line IMHO, esp. with community | 05:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nokia blows Sharp out of the water. | 05:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nokia's behavior is completely unprecedented in this industry. | 05:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | and there's a lot to be said for rewarding behavior you agree with. | 05:41 |
| realitygaps | definitely, but in the end it must make sense for them as a business opportunity or they wouldnt be doing it right? | 05:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Of course | 05:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | and what's wrong with that? | 05:41 |
| realitygaps | nothing :) | 05:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Everybody ends up winning. | 05:42 |
| realitygaps | i sure hope so | 05:42 |
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| realitygaps | i know that theyve made the devices we were dreaming of, so im on their side for the forseeable future | 05:42 |
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| realitygaps | i wouldnt have thought id have such an open phone in my pocket so soon | 05:43 |
| realitygaps | so kudos to nokia on that for sure | 05:43 |
| realitygaps | i hope its the gamechanger we imagine it to be | 05:43 |
| realitygaps | and thanks GA for the reality check :) as my nick shows sometimes i have gaps in that.... | 05:44 |
| aep | noooo. n900 out of stock D: damn hype | 05:45 |
| realitygaps | is anyone working on fosdem proposals btw, there are only a few days left.... | 05:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Think there was a thread on maemo-developers. | 05:46 |
| realitygaps | think that was for foss.in - bangalore | 05:47 |
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| mza | yaaay | 06:26 |
| dmj726 | Bounce Evolution is proprietary, right? | 06:30 |
| mza | my n900 is on the way! | 06:30 |
| dmj726 | mza: yay! | 06:30 |
| mza | wow! someone ported xeyes | 06:30 |
| * mza twirls finger | 06:30 | |
| dmj726 | Isn't xeyes like the hello world of X applications? | 06:31 |
| mza | my n810 is the only "gadget" ive ever gotten that ive used every day since ive gotten it | 06:31 |
| Tester | mza: impressive ;) | 06:31 |
| mza | all i want is caldav | 06:31 |
| mza | :( | 06:32 |
| Tester | does evo on the desktop do it ? | 06:32 |
| mza | openvpn has been ported right? | 06:32 |
| mza | i dunno:( | 06:32 |
| mza | does it support google calendars? | 06:33 |
| mza | cause that's caldav | 06:33 |
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| mza | i dont see openvpn | 06:37 |
| mza | on maemo.org | 06:37 |
| mza | is there somewhere i can browse the apt repo? | 06:37 |
| fernando_ | http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/openvpn/ | 06:37 |
| fernando_ | (I assume it will work with minimal porting with the N900, but dunno) | 06:38 |
| dmj726 | it's in extras-devel | 06:38 |
| dmj726 | http://maemo.org/packages/view/openvpn/ | 06:38 |
| mza | yea, that's what i mean, i see it for OS2008 | 06:39 |
| mza | and use it on the n810 | 06:39 |
| mza | im really curious about the mail client | 06:39 |
| mza | dmj726, thx, that's cool | 06:41 |
| mza | now we just need an applet and a user/passwd save;) | 06:41 |
| mza | avahi! nice | 06:41 |
| fernando_ | what we really need is something like http://blog.robinward.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/bildschirmfoto-ssh-tunnel-manager.png | 06:42 |
| fernando_ | yes yes (is there one already?) | 06:42 |
| mza | i wish! | 06:43 |
| mza | openvpn is better cause you can push routes | 06:43 |
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| ShadowJK | i run openvpn at system level not user level :/ | 06:53 |
| fernando_ | :\ | 06:54 |
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| greenfly | mza: openvpn /used/ to work before I upgraded the firmware, but now the package can't seem to find the libzlo2-2 package it needs | 07:20 |
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| L0cMini9 | re | 07:26 |
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| * timeless_mbp sighs | 08:10 | |
| timeless_mbp | would someone please remind me to mention http://www.smsmac.com/help/discover/about-sms/gsm7bit/ to the next finn who talks to me about which stupid character set SMSs use? | 08:11 |
| aol | I'm pretty sure you can write sms in chinese or russian too | 08:12 |
| `0660_ | what do the finns tell you about the charsets? :) | 08:13 |
| `0660_ | aol, that article does mention unicode sms messages | 08:13 |
| timeless_mbp | aol: not using 160 chars | 08:14 |
| RST38h | Man Spoke Only Klingon to His Son for Three Years | 08:14 |
| aol | all righty :) | 08:14 |
| timeless_mbp | the key is that :a is one of the privileged single 7bit chars | 08:14 |
| RST38h | Hm. | 08:14 |
| aol | I guess finns originally thought only finns would be using this SMS thing :) | 08:15 |
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| timeless_mbp | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS | 08:16 |
| timeless_mbp | a finn supposedly sent the first mobile originated sms... | 08:16 |
| timeless_mbp | but it wasn't designed by finns at all | 08:16 |
| timeless_mbp | sounds like it was germans/frenchmen | 08:16 |
| aol | I'm in the impression that the modern phones have always had the 140 char limit ... | 08:17 |
| aol | 7bit is supposed to have 160char limit | 08:17 |
| aol | so maybe it has been obsoleted quite early | 08:18 |
| timeless_mbp | 160 was the final limit :) | 08:18 |
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| timeless_mbp | but really there are a whole bunch of limits, 70, 140, 160, 67, 133, 153 | 08:21 |
| luke-jr | how about 6bit | 08:22 |
| * timeless_mbp sighs | 08:23 | |
| timeless_mbp | stupid standards | 08:23 |
| timeless_mbp | nowhere does it mention anything about RTL | 08:23 |
| timeless_mbp | so i guess it's shoehorned in | 08:23 |
| timeless_mbp | probably under the "surprise me" category | 08:23 |
| luke-jr | maybe it's like IRC RTL | 08:24 |
| luke-jr | if the character set is flagged RTL, the text is considered RTL | 08:24 |
| luke-jr | :p | 08:24 |
| luke-jr | so Arabic characters cause the line to go RTL | 08:24 |
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| Venomrush | ok it's the 19th nov | 08:28 |
| Venomrush | was told when i called on the 9th that they'll start shipping today.. | 08:28 |
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| Venomrush | let's see what'll happen | 08:28 |
| timeless_mbp | luke-jr: there's no character set flagging in irc | 08:28 |
| timeless_mbp | that's a myth | 08:28 |
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| luke-jr | timeless_mbp: the flagging is in the OS or font or something | 08:29 |
| luke-jr | somewhere the OS knows Arabic is RTL | 08:29 |
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| timeless_mbp | luke-jr: see.... this would almost be ok if the lines in question were pure Arabic | 08:30 |
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| timeless_mbp | and the 'os' for the most part doesn't care at all | 08:31 |
| timeless_mbp | in fact, there really isn't much of an 'os' her | 08:31 |
| timeless_mbp | s/her/here/ | 08:31 |
| infobot | timeless_mbp meant: in fact, theree really isn't much of an 'os' her | 08:31 |
| timeless_mbp | there's basically shaping, glyph lookup/rendering, and someone doing display | 08:31 |
| timeless_mbp | pretty much all of this is done more or less at the application level | 08:32 |
| timeless_mbp | but things aren't remotely interesting until one mixes an RTL language with an LTR language | 08:32 |
| timeless_mbp | until then it falls under the category of "who cares" | 08:32 |
| timeless_mbp | once you mix them, it falls under the category of "surprise me, sounds exciting" | 08:32 |
| luke-jr | XD | 08:35 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.ownskin.com/flash_lite_slide_detail?t=JVYSZXIU | 08:35 |
| timeless_mbp | this is just so wrong | 08:35 |
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| RST38h | "What's your job" thread is probably the most informative thread on tmo for the last 2 months... | 08:47 |
| RST38h | hello, konttori | 08:47 |
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| kirma | could it be spiced up by "I'm canceling my preorder" and "but does it have digital compass" messages? | 08:50 |
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| RST38h | kirma: DON'T. | 08:50 |
| RST38h | =) | 08:50 |
| kirma | I don't that's sure :) | 08:50 |
| RST38h | There are unusually few attempts to hijack it | 08:51 |
| RST38h | Probably does not contain any proper keywords | 08:51 |
| tekojo | Morning! | 08:52 |
| Myrtti | moin | 08:53 |
| RST38h | Moorning, Myrtti, tekojo | 08:54 |
| Myrtti | ♥ | 08:55 |
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| Myrtti | the thread about what's your job is fun, but I'm too boring to write anything to it | 08:56 |
| johnx | allo | 08:56 |
| johnx | Myrtti, what do you do? | 08:56 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: cat herder? =) | 08:57 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: i've heard about it, right. But what option is left for an ordinary user? Stock maemo kernel just doesn't work properly with an external card-reader... and too old anyway. | 08:57 |
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| johnx | RST38h, that was an awesome commercial :D | 08:57 |
| * RST38h pulled that one out of his brain, did not see any commercials | 08:57 | |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: and btw do you probably know about nokia plans wrt properly mainlining n900 support? | 08:57 |
| johnx | you're missing out. let me find it | 08:57 |
| Myrtti | johnx: software developer for a Finnish company, doing documentation infrastructure atm. | 08:57 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: partial | 08:58 |
| johnx | Myrtti, ha! i used to be an english teacher :P nothing to worry about in terms of boring | 08:58 |
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| Myrtti | hooray, no spam! | 08:59 |
| johnx | RST38h, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8 | 08:59 |
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| epa_ | anyone here with latest firmware (on n900) | 09:01 |
| johnx | epa_, 42-11 here | 09:01 |
| johnx | what's up? | 09:01 |
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| dmj726 | umm...is it just me or are there suddenly a lot of clueless threads basically saying "Make me an app" | 09:01 |
| epa_ | johnx: can you verify a 'bug' on calendar software for me? | 09:01 |
| johnx | alright, what are the steps? | 09:01 |
| johnx | dmj726, they come in waves | 09:01 |
| tekojo | epa_ what kind of bug? | 09:02 |
| RST38h | johnx: Oh. Shit. | 09:02 |
| epa_ | open calendar, in monthly view "brush" left it goes one month forward | 09:02 |
| johnx | dmj726, just ask them for $10,000 now and another $10k on completion. tell 'em it's your special rate | 09:02 |
| epa_ | johnx: brush left it goes one month back | 09:02 |
| epa_ | johnx: select a week | 09:02 |
| epa_ | johnx: try same | 09:02 |
| RST38h | johnx: /me guessed "IBM" but missed | 09:02 |
| dmj726 | I can understand the "Let's brainstorm a new community project" but the "I don't know programming, do this for me please." is just too much | 09:02 |
| Myrtti | ♥ | 09:02 |
| epa_ | johnx: does it work to both directions for you | 09:02 |
| dmj726 | not a bad idea | 09:03 |
| RST38h | dmj726: Let's brainstorm thing is no different, really | 09:03 |
| epa_ | johnx: I can only go back in weekly view. not forward at all. | 09:03 |
| RST38h | dmj726: Just worded a bit more politely | 09:03 |
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| johnx | epa_, i can go back and forth pretty easily | 09:03 |
| epa_ | johnx: ok incorrect. I can go forward, but not the same way I go in montly view | 09:03 |
| epa_ | johnx: ok. | 09:03 |
| dmj726 | I got some nice UI ideas for the video editing thing that way | 09:03 |
| tekojo | epa_ explain more? what's not the same way? | 09:04 |
| johnx | epa_, I can swipe up/left down/right in month view, but only left and right in week view | 09:04 |
| epa_ | tekojo: going back and forth in calendar | 09:04 |
| tekojo | here it works like johnx just said | 09:04 |
| epa_ | johnx: you do the movement so that the stylus is outside of the screen and then you just brush left or right? | 09:05 |
| johnx | ah, not coming from outside the screen | 09:05 |
| johnx | just swiping left and right with my finger/fingernail | 09:05 |
| tekojo | Ah, start with the stylus/finger in the screen area | 09:05 |
| epa_ | johnx: for me going forward in week view works only if I press screen and then wait a bit and then brush | 09:05 |
| tekojo | it only works from outside from left to right | 09:06 |
| epa_ | tekojo: not in monthly view | 09:06 |
| epa_ | in monthly it works both ways | 09:06 |
| tekojo | True :-D | 09:06 |
| tekojo | need to tell the people who did it | 09:06 |
| epa_ | tekojo: ok so 'anomaly' confirmed | 09:06 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: could you please elaborate a bit more? | 09:06 |
| epa_ | I do not know if it is a bug or a feature :) | 09:06 |
| johnx | or which part is the bug :) | 09:07 |
| tekojo | Yes, please open a bug, or if you have, say the number and I'll confirm | 09:07 |
| epa_ | johnx: true | 09:07 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: Nokia does not to my knowledge plan to release code for all the hardware in the N900 | 09:07 |
| epa_ | tekojo: I'll try to write it up | 09:07 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: i'm talking about the kernel stuff. | 09:07 |
| tekojo | not a feature in calender, only in browser and some other places | 09:07 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: the kernel stuff is insufficient to boot | 09:07 |
| luke-jr | or at least to use | 09:07 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: what exactly is missing? ofono guys promised support for the gsm part. | 09:08 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: battery charging | 09:08 |
| RST38h | Maemo5 does not use ofono | 09:08 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: not yet | 09:08 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: but Marcel told me they plan to support it. | 09:08 |
| johnx | wow, inside the maemo5 lifespan? | 09:09 |
| RST38h | But, again, I do not see how releasing the WHOLE source code is so important | 09:09 |
| tekojo | luke-jr for what hardware are you trying to compile the kernel for? | 09:09 |
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| RST38h | Paul: In Maemo6, no doubt? | 09:09 |
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| luke-jr | tekojo: nothing | 09:09 |
| johnx | RST38h, a lot of it's interesting for people with non-Nokia hardware | 09:09 |
| tekojo | oh, so you just want to read the code? | 09:10 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: i can't really understand how it can be too hard to trigger battery charging given kernel support is present. Even if it's userspace toggling something over gpiolib, it shouldn't be hard to strace the proprietary shit. | 09:10 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, it's a userspace binary-only daemon | 09:10 |
| RST38h | johnx: some, yes, in order to have a working desktop | 09:10 |
| johnx | AFAIK | 09:10 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: IIRC, the hard part is the algorithms | 09:10 |
| tekojo | for battery stuff ask Stskeeps, he knows a lot of how the battery works | 09:10 |
| johnx | RST38h, Nokia's modifications to the userspace part of the SGX OpenGLES2 lib | 09:11 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i do not know a thing about maemo* numbering scheme and i do not think distro matters much. Marcel told they'll support n900 gsm modem in several months after the public sale. | 09:11 |
| RST38h | johnx: Ah | 09:11 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: charging LiIon batteries in a sane enough way is not really hard, i do not understand what magic algorithms you're talking about. | 09:11 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: me either, Nokia won't give us code | 09:12 |
| RST38h | Paul: iiiiinteresting... | 09:12 |
| luke-jr | and my reverse engineering hasn't gotten that far yet | 09:12 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: basically as far as i understood they plan to open ISI library that knows how to communicate with nokia modems over phonet etc. There's already some support in their repo. | 09:13 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, that is very cool news :D | 09:13 |
| epa_ | johnx, tekojo: I made a report can you verify it is understandable. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6246 | 09:14 |
| povbot | Bug 6246: Controlling calendar app is not consistent. | 09:14 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: come on, charging LiIon batteries _is_ simple. To charge you use CC-CV unless it reaches the nominal maximum voltage, monitoring the temperature during the process. | 09:14 |
| Xisdibik | RST38h: dont you ever sleep! :O | 09:14 |
| johnx | epa_, makes sense to me. and it's definitely weird | 09:15 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: but to treat battery gently it's really not recommended to keep it charged over ~75% of capacity, especially if it's in a hot place (near the other components that heat it). | 09:15 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: that means pretty much nothing to me :) | 09:15 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: after it reached the nominal voltage, the charging should be stopped until it degrades to ~75% again by normal usage discharge. | 09:15 |
| epa_ | johnx: makes me start to wonder that maybe nokia does not have consistent 'gesture/input' libray | 09:15 |
| epa_ | that it uses for the apps. | 09:15 |
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| johnx | epa_, or if it's just done on a one off basis... | 09:16 |
| RST38h | johnx: | 09:16 |
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| Xisdibik | PaulFertser: So in english your saying what? | 09:16 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: and that's all. You need to avoid deep discharge. Basically all the rules, i can't understand what "algorithms" you're talking about. | 09:16 |
| epa_ | or maybe someone just forgot one gtk hook from there. | 09:16 |
| PaulFertser | Xisdibik: wrt ofono or battery charging? | 09:16 |
| RST38h | Xisdibik: I hibernate! | 09:16 |
| Xisdibik | battery charging | 09:16 |
| Xisdibik | RST38h: during what season? :p | 09:16 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, it's basically just a matter of either 1) running nokia's binary bme daemon or 2) doing a little reverse engineering to understand the raw values that the kernel space driver is spitting out from entries in /sys | 09:16 |
| RST38h | like right now | 09:16 |
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| Xisdibik | You certainly dont look suspended to disk | 09:17 |
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| johnx | most people do (1) when they're running non-maemo distros. some people complain about not having (2) available, but don't care enough to do the research | 09:17 |
| PaulFertser | Xisdibik: i can't understand why nokia's binary-shit battery charging daemon is a problem to get a free OS supported on nxxx because battery charging is not inherently complicated and there's strace to track how the binary daemon uses "open" kernel interfaces. | 09:17 |
| johnx | RST38h, ? | 09:18 |
| RST38h | johnx:Nothing, just piece of a string from the buffer | 09:18 |
| * RST38h switched to a different laptop | 09:18 | |
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| johnx | so anyways, now you have an image to pop into your head whenever someone says "herding cats" :) | 09:19 |
| PaulFertser | Xisdibik: i also do not understand why the hell nokia doesn't release the code for that daemon since charging LiIon batteries is not a secret nowadays. | 09:19 |
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| johnx | PaulFertser, something about liability and having to jump through legal hoops inside the company | 09:20 |
| RST38h | johnx: Have you seen guys creating moving artwork out of sheep with christmas lights? | 09:20 |
| johnx | RST38h, yeah, saw that one. not entirely sure how much of it is real | 09:20 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: what nokia is really good at is power saving.. so there might be a lot of IP in it | 09:21 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: why can't they just "leak" enough info to easily write a replacement? Since when leaking some tiny piece of information that is interesting only for "those not-understanding a thing about business free software extremists" is hard? | 09:21 |
| RST38h | johnx: Hey I am not sure about the cats either =) | 09:22 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: power saving is not about battery charging. | 09:22 |
| johnx | RST38h, well of course WRT to the cats. It's just a mental aid for picturing :) | 09:22 |
| Stskeeps | ok, power management | 09:22 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: you save power by turning off unused devices and tweaking frequencies/voltages. Shouldn't prevent anybody to charge his battery. | 09:22 |
| RST38h | The United States and China have agreed to step up discussions on cooperative space exploration | 09:23 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: I think what PaulFertser is pointing out is that releasing basic usage docs shouldn't be a problem | 09:23 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: is my english _that_ bad it needs additional explanations? :( | 09:23 |
| * RST38h kinda remembers that the battery charging code should be way deeper than the userspace, more on the boot loader level | 09:23 | |
| johnx | anyways, there is documentation on *reading* most of the battery related into, IIRC, just not *writing* to those interfaces | 09:24 |
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| RST38h | Because the device should be able to charge even when it is off (really OFF not asleep) | 09:24 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, probably assuming Stskeeps hasn't read the scrollback, and no your English is just fine :) | 09:24 |
| Stskeeps | either way, i doubt bme is getting opened anytime soon due to a lot of factors. | 09:24 |
| johnx | RST38h, it can charge a bit when off, but you've noticed it always turns on when charging, right? | 09:25 |
| Xisdibik | PaulFertser: whats wrong with the daemon | 09:25 |
| PaulFertser | BTW, probably there is somebody can tell about the usb host support on n900, it'd be really nice to finally hear the details if it's really unsupported or just officially unsupported or requires an external power source. | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | what -can- happen would be patches to make it work on later kernel if it doesnt work there | 09:25 |
| RST38h | johnx: yea, but never fully turns on | 09:25 |
| Myrtti | PaulFertser: it's a hardware restriction AFAIK | 09:25 |
| RST38h | johnx: it basically runs something at the level of the boot loader | 09:25 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: otg is out of the picture, but usb host is not sure | 09:25 |
| johnx | RST38h, that "charging" screen is drawn by X11 | 09:25 |
| PaulFertser | Xisdibik: what's wrong with being a proprietary shit? Hm, i'm not sure i can really explain that in a few words now. | 09:25 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: thnx :) | 09:25 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: it doesn't charge without Linux running and BME in userland | 09:25 |
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| Stskeeps | luke-jr: it does charge a lil bit in nolo | 09:26 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, did you already read the maemo-devel thread on it? I think that might be the most info anyone has right now | 09:26 |
| RST38h | Well, N810 definitely does not boot linux while charging | 09:26 |
| PaulFertser | Myrtti: more details are needed, the SoC can definetely act as a usb host. | 09:26 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: how about we drop the ideology and stick to technical discussion? much more productive. | 09:26 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: it definitely DOES | 09:26 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: that one talking about usb certification? Doesn't tell a bit to me. :( | 09:27 |
| RST38h | Mmm? I can keep it plugged in and it will charge | 09:27 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: with Linux booted | 09:27 |
| RST38h | But I am not getting Linux until I hold the power button | 09:27 |
| johnx | RST38h, you mean that "battery meter" screen? | 09:27 |
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| PaulFertser | johnx: in fact it's just ridiculously stupid to trade usb host for fucking USB Logo on a box :-/ | 09:27 |
| johnx | put some code early in rcS.d/ and watch it run if you don't believe me | 09:27 |
| Stskeeps | give me reports on whats broken in N8x0 BME. and no, not being open is not 'broken' in that discussion | 09:27 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: you're not getting Maemo until you hold the power button. Linux is always running. | 09:27 |
| RST38h | johnx: yea, guess so. whatever it shows when I plug it into power when it is off | 09:27 |
| RST38h | ah | 09:27 |
| * RST38h starts getting it, slowly | 09:28 | |
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| luke-jr | Stskeeps: it is not trusted. | 09:28 |
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| johnx | RST38h, it doesn't start hildon-desktop, but it is drawing that silly battery meter with X11, unless I'm quite mistaken | 09:28 |
| johnx | (known to happen :) ) | 09:28 |
| RST38h | johnx: Interesting =) | 09:28 |
| luke-jr | johnx: the boot menu isn't X11 | 09:28 |
| Xisdibik | PaulFertser: so its just the opensourceness thats the issue, i thought that the daemon was broken or something because you were talking about 75% or some other thing | 09:29 |
| johnx | luke-jr, duh | 09:29 |
| * RST38h wonders what was Nokia's issue with the 3.5mm power plug | 09:29 | |
| RST38h | Or EUs, for that matter | 09:29 |
| luke-jr | oh right, forgot the battery charging meter thing was post-menu | 09:29 |
| Stskeeps | luke-jr: its like a dog that hasn't bitten you forever, no reason not to trust it. it works fine for its general purpos | 09:29 |
| Stskeeps | e | 09:29 |
| PaulFertser | Xisdibik: i was explaining how exactly to treat any LiIon battery to get the maximum lifespan. Talking about the algorithm, not the implementation. | 09:30 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, from your point of view (and mine), but from the position of trying to market the phone I guess they went with the logo | 09:30 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: does it? I'm pretty sure i've pointed out some pretty major bugs before | 09:30 |
| luke-jr | like that stupid reboot cycle thing | 09:30 |
| johnx | though I think they might not even be able to claim the interface was "USB" at all | 09:30 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 09:30 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: belated pong | 09:30 |
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| PaulFertser | Xisdibik: and no, i don't care about "opensourceness", i care about the freedom, quite a difference here. And if the daemon is not free you'll have all kind of technical problems too, e.g. when you want to update your libc or there were plenty of troubles on OABI->EABI switch etc. | 09:31 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: in that particular case i probably would be able to rebuild stuff. :P | 09:31 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: unless you're out of a job and Nokia long out of business | 09:31 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, well, we aren't having bme related problems, running ubuntu jaunty/karmic on the N8x0... | 09:32 |
| Stskeeps | luke-jr: reboot loop happens on diablo too. | 09:32 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: and what if my new optimized ABI is proprietary and not for your eyes? | 09:32 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: "happens on diablo" somehow makes it less of a bug? | 09:32 |
| Stskeeps | then you'd be a hypocrite | 09:32 |
| johnx | reboot loop is silly use of watchdog, not anything else. how is that related to the battery? | 09:33 |
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| luke-jr | Stskeeps: nope, you're missing the point | 09:33 |
| Stskeeps | no, i'm going back to my coffee | 09:33 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: do you mean you have access to the sources? Or know a magic way to do OABI->EABI conversion? | 09:33 |
| luke-jr | johnx: BME forces teh system to reboot | 09:33 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: Stskeeps is an employee | 09:33 |
| johnx | luke-jr, no, we're pragmatists, and you're whining on IRC about something you haven't taken the time to reverse engineer | 09:33 |
| * RST38h is tired of proprietary vs open-source agrument. Who the hell cares, except for luke-jr? | 09:33 | |
| luke-jr | johnx: I have taken LOTS of time. It's big. | 09:33 |
| Stskeeps | luke-jr: maemo.org distmaster, yeah | 09:33 |
| RST38h | It is a gadget. It should work. If Nokia maintains its firmware, Nokia fixes it. | 09:34 |
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| luke-jr | Stskeeps: free software is about being able to do what I want with my product. it does not mean the software goes to anyone who wants it. | 09:34 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: being a nokia employee doesn't mean an ability to do anything useful i'm afraid. I was amazed to hear that the ALSA developer from Intel can't find out anything about their windows drivers. | 09:34 |
| RST38h | All the talk about "what happens when Nokia out of business" is not worth a penny, as your device will be out of business long before Nokia | 09:34 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, in this case it really isn't a problem actually. BME runs out of Nokia's initfs, and if you leave it alone you can pivot_root into whatever distro you want | 09:34 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: Nokia *doesn't* fix it. | 09:34 |
| RST38h | luke-jr: But that is a completely different issue | 09:35 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: not really | 09:35 |
| RST38h | To stay competitive, Nokia is supposed to start fixing it | 09:35 |
| luke-jr | Nokia shouldn't have to fix it. | 09:35 |
| luke-jr | They don't sell it anymore. | 09:35 |
| RST38h | Or face what it is facing now with S60 | 09:35 |
| johnx | luke-jr, I highly doubt that most of the reboot-loops were caused by BME | 09:35 |
| luke-jr | johnx: all of mine are. | 09:35 |
| johnx | luke-jr, doesn't that just mean your battery is dead? | 09:36 |
| luke-jr | minus the having-a-bootmenu-default-that-panics | 09:36 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: hm, that's a decent hint to why when i boot Debian directly from SD the device just powers off in 65 seconds. | 09:36 |
| luke-jr | johnx: it means the battery ran down, yes | 09:36 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: great thanks!!! | 09:36 |
| luke-jr | johnx: and it occurs when plugged in, preventing it from charging reasonably | 09:36 |
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| johnx | PaulFertser, augh! you missed my huge article on this :) | 09:36 |
| suihkulokki | on x86 laptops you get charging in bios/acpi/embedded controller - all propiertary software you can't change | 09:36 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, I was facing the same thing circa January 2008 or so | 09:36 |
| johnx | you can also turn off watchdog with the flasher | 09:37 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: oh, look at solcas nitboot stuff | 09:37 |
| luke-jr | suihkulokki: none of which gets in the way of rewriting everything on the system, AFAIK | 09:37 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: he ran bme and such under later kernels | 09:37 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: how about Macer's OpenSolaris? :) | 09:37 |
| Stskeeps | luke-jr: i am a happy opensolaris and freebsd user. | 09:38 |
| luke-jr | BME runs on OpenSolaris? | 09:38 |
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| suihkulokki | luke-jr: unless you want to change the bios to free software like the coreboot people | 09:38 |
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| johnx | luke-jr, opensolaris supports any of the other hardware on the system? | 09:38 |
| luke-jr | johnx: it could, if I ported it | 09:39 |
| johnx | luke-jr, great, while you're at it, strace bme | 09:39 |
| luke-jr | johnx: strace doesn't give me any useful info | 09:39 |
| johnx | it should tell you what it's writing to /sys, yes? | 09:40 |
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| luke-jr | johnx: I've already decompiled a number of functions in BME by hand | 09:40 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: it's illegal to encourage people to kill themselves isn't it? ;) | 09:40 |
| luke-jr | johnx: yay, a bunch of random numbers that mean absolutely nothing to me | 09:40 |
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| lardman | morning all | 09:40 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: I doubt you could be prosecuted across national borders. | 09:41 |
| johnx | luke-jr, people know the meaning of the numbers coming out of the stuff in /sys. there is a battery meter that doesn't use bme at all... | 09:41 |
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| luke-jr | johnx: I don't. :p | 09:41 |
| luke-jr | and what battery meter is that? | 09:42 |
| luke-jr | the only thing anywhere close to what you describe is a BME client that just talks to BME | 09:42 |
| johnx | kcbatt I think | 09:42 |
| johnx | reads from retu and tahvo (sp?) directly and interprets the results | 09:43 |
| johnx | maybe it doesn't help, but I'm just saying people have been down this trail before and gotten somewhere | 09:43 |
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| RST38h | luke-jr: Not selling it anymore is no longer an excuse | 09:43 |
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| lardman | RST38h: except the chipset is probably still used in some phones | 09:44 |
| RST38h | luke-jr: Both Google and Apple continue supporting older hardware, to a certain degree | 09:44 |
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| luke-jr | johnx: it's easier to do things like that when it's just a go-between | 09:44 |
| lardman | ah support, thought you were talking about releasing details | 09:44 |
| luke-jr | but in the case of charging, arbitrary numbers go in, arbitrary numbers go out | 09:44 |
| RST38h | So, dropping support as soon as you stop selling the device is now considered a disadvantage | 09:44 |
| johnx | luke-jr, have a voltmeter? | 09:44 |
| * suihkulokki googles kcbatt and interesting: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=157311&postcount=22 | 09:44 | |
| RST38h | lardman: No, just supporting hardware | 09:44 |
| lardman | k | 09:45 |
| luke-jr | johnx: somewhere | 09:45 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: yep, it's damn hard to find any decent info on running proper OS's on n810 :( | 09:45 |
| johnx | get it out, stick the leads between your battery and n800... | 09:45 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: stick to Diablo or try Mer | 09:45 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, have you heard of mer? | 09:45 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: http://slonopotamus.org/gentoo-on-n8x0 | 09:45 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: lardman: yep, yep. | 09:45 |
| lardman | what do you mean by proper then? | 09:45 |
| luke-jr | lardman: he said proper | 09:45 |
| lardman | well gentoo is out then :p | 09:46 |
| luke-jr | proper OS to me means not platform/purpose specific | 09:46 |
| lardman | ;) | 09:46 |
| johnx | lardman++ :) | 09:46 |
| johnx | luke-jr, isn't a framebuffer console to purpose specific? | 09:46 |
| johnx | s/to/too/ | 09:46 |
| lardman | all well and good, but if your platform is constrained, it seems silly to run an os designed for larger screens, no touchscreen, more memory, storage, etc, etc. | 09:46 |
| infobot | johnx meant: luke-jr, isn't a framebuffer console too purpose specific? | 09:46 |
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| PaulFertser | luke-jr: what's important for me is to run an OS that follows mainline, and uses the minimum of proprietary stuff. I wanted to run Debian but it's a bit too hard to debug boot issues without the serial console :-/ | 09:47 |
| Stskeeps | n800/n810? | 09:47 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: is Debian mainline these days, not 4 years behind? ;) | 09:47 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: Gentoo is the best you'll find for that | 09:47 |
| PaulFertser | suihkulokki: (x86 laptops) DSDT can be changed. And anyway the fact it works like that doesn't mean it's good. E.g. i blame my laptop for killing its battery :-/ | 09:47 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: if by proprietary you mean the apps, then try Mer | 09:48 |
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| Lupu | From what I've heard Arch would match that description, but I don't have personal experience with it. | 09:48 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: what about the kernel stuff? | 09:48 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, I can guide you on that if you want to do it by hand. you'll need a usb cable and a linux desktop | 09:48 |
| thux | hey experts, ot, how i remove all that apt-get build-dep wine installed ? | 09:48 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: if by proprietary you mean the underlying sw, then you can also try Mer. But getting rid of all the proprietary stuff will lose funcitonality | 09:48 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: Gentoo isn't picky about kernels. | 09:48 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: :))) | 09:49 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: i've already patched the kernel to have console output on the FB, i think i'll manage by myself, but thanks for the offer :) | 09:49 |
| PaulFertser | Oh, since you're all experts here, can anyone tell me about the cmdline ATAG passed by the bootloader? What is the best way to alter the kernel cmdline? | 09:50 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, you have an N810? | 09:50 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: my friend has. But he's just a user. | 09:50 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: AFAIK, the cmdline needs to be in the kernel. | 09:50 |
| johnx | ah, so you're on an N800? | 09:50 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: cmdline is usually hardcoded in kernel afaik | 09:51 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: i need to help him with his specific needs (run QCad and other popular soft, work with external CF cardreader etc). | 09:51 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: i'm on openmoko freerunner :P | 09:51 |
| johnx | ah, fun stuff | 09:51 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: i'd say it's not that usual. | 09:51 |
| lardman | I can't see why you couldn't compile QCad for Diablo | 09:51 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: usually = usual on n8x0 | 09:51 |
| * luke-jr was so close to buying a Freerunner, but then realized GSM service was exceedingly expensive :/ | 09:51 | |
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| johnx | when I got debian running on the N800 I did it with g_ether and utelnetd since I didn't know the magic to make my usb keyboard work at the time | 09:52 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: "On some architectures (EBSA110 and CATS), there is currently no way for the boot loader to pass arguments to the kernel. For these architectures, you should supply some command-line options at build time." I guess it suggests that modern way to do it is to supply it via bootloader with ATAG. | 09:53 |
| RST38h | luke-jr: Freerunner couldn't even make calls out of the box, if I remember correctly | 09:53 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: I couldn't care less about the box. | 09:54 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: you didn't lose much, i do not enjoy experience of using a FR. But it is cool for programming and the community is very nice. | 09:54 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: even w/ the new stuff that fixes the crap? | 09:54 |
| PaulFertser | That said, i'm still using it as the only cellphone for about a year by now. | 09:54 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, actually seems like quite a bit of linux-based embedded stuff doesn't get passed it's cmdline from the bootloader | 09:55 |
| PaulFertser | luke-jr: the new stuff is much better. | 09:55 |
| johnx | Zaurus, Nxx0 | 09:55 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: one thing is compiling QCad and everything else you need by yourself, the other is "apt-get install qcad". I'd prefer the latter. | 09:55 |
| luke-jr | my contact lenses run Gentoo and need cmdline embedded in the kernel... | 09:55 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: Zaurus is mad old, same about Nxx0 | 09:56 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: I see, but then you swap the work of compiling QCad for the work of getting e.g. Debian running on the platform; I think the former would probably be easier | 09:56 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, so, want me to try apt-get install qcad from mer for you? | 09:57 |
| * Stskeeps wonders if he should be worried he uses a IA-32 Intel Architecture Software Developer's Manual volume to put his flatscreen in the right height | 09:57 | |
| PaulFertser | lardman: i really hoped Debian would "just work" on that. Apparently that's not the case and i guess the most nasty problem is nokia's "opensource" policy and unfriendliness towards free software. | 09:57 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: do not bother, i'll do it myself soon. | 09:58 |
| lardman | hmm, not sure where you got that opinion? | 09:58 |
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| Stskeeps | lardman: anything not free software is obviously unfriendly | 09:58 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: because debian runs on almost all popular hardware that is open enough. Apparently nxx0 is not. | 09:58 |
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| lardman | PaulFertser: it would certainly run, if someone ported it | 09:59 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: at least you can run your own kernel. | 09:59 |
| lardman | and that's you at this point | 09:59 |
| johnx | the biggest block I ran into was actually watchdog, which is easily shut off with the flasher | 09:59 |
| Stskeeps | debian runs fine. we just don't maintain it as it's not worth it :P | 09:59 |
| Stskeeps | you'll have to use bits in initfs, but so it goes | 10:00 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: yep, i can run my own kernel but maemo doesn't work with it. Or i can run something else but it lacks support for the proprietary parts nokia decided to hide without any decent reason. | 10:00 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: actually the reason why kernel doesn't work is because some kernel interfaces were changed/removed | 10:00 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: yep, now i understand the importance of initfs :( | 10:00 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: cos of noone bothering to keep n8x0 kernel support up to date | 10:00 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: and the reason for that is that nokia was stupid/selfish enough to not push nxx0 support mainline and use standard kernel interfaces intead of inventing their own. | 10:01 |
| luke-jr | also because Nokia's blobs require kernel bugs :) | 10:01 |
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| johnx | the reason the latest kernels don't run on the N8x0 with all the features enabled has much less to do with Nokia's open source policy and much more to do with lack of maintenance | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: there was originally not even sane omap support in mainline.. | 10:01 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: actually, it's more because initfs uses static /dev instead of udev | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | anyway | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | less talk, more doing | 10:02 |
| * Stskeeps goes do work | 10:02 | |
| johnx | Stskeeps++ | 10:02 |
| luke-jr | PaulFertser: the only real practical issue with Gentoo and a fairly recent kernel is the GPS blob | 10:02 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, if you run into problems, I can probably get you up into debian in ~30 minutes. If you want to stop by #mer we're happy to have you | 10:02 |
| Stskeeps | currently working on getting toolchain proper for initfs. that's openness you can actually touch. | 10:02 |
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| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: i see it like this: free software for Nokia is a cheap whore, rather than a lover. That's about the attitude. | 10:03 |
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| lardman | I see it more like this: some things are only available with NDA, therefore they can't be shared; some things add competitive advantage, therefore they aren't shared | 10:04 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: not going to bother discussing, sorry. i'm much more of a practical person than running on ideology. | 10:04 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: the key was the importance of the daemons started from initfs. Thanks again for that :) And yes, quite possibly i'll try mer sooner than later. | 10:04 |
| zaheerm-lp | PaulFertser, heaven knows what it is for Palm/others then :) | 10:04 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: no matter your ideology, i will gladly help out in seeing what's up with your boot stuff though | 10:04 |
| luke-jr | lardman: so take from the community and give back only what is worthless | 10:04 |
| lardman | no | 10:05 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: "competitive advantage" looks more like a myth to me. I've never seen any proof it really helps to hide the code to get that. | 10:05 |
| johnx | about Nokia/open source: they actually do pay the bills for a ton of people who contribute to open source projects, such as bluez, linux-omap, etc | 10:05 |
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| lardman | well stuff like the charging daemon which would provide info about their chipsets, they don't want people ripping off their GUI apps, etc. | 10:05 |
| johnx | the proof is in the commit logs from @nokia.com (and @collabora and @indt) | 10:05 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: ok, thanks a lot to you too :) I hope i'll come next time with more nice words :) | 10:06 |
| lardman | I don't necessarily agree, but I can see the reasoning and am content | 10:06 |
| luke-jr | johnx: interesting to note Kalle Valo has to do N8x0 mainlining off work hours | 10:06 |
| Stskeeps | luke-jr: no, he's doing that voluntarily, not 'has to do' | 10:06 |
| lardman | luke-jr: Well it's not paid for any more as the platform is dead....? | 10:06 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: but it's not on time he's paid for | 10:06 |
| luke-jr | that's my point | 10:06 |
| lardman | and | 10:06 |
| lardman | I don't get paid to do this either | 10:06 |
| Stskeeps | luke-jr: companies have release schedules, and so it is | 10:06 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: i know they pay several quite important developers. But not because they support free software, rather because they use it. The same prostitute/lover analogy. | 10:07 |
| johnx | luke-jr, not saying that nokia is perfect, but they catch a much worse rap than they deserve | 10:07 |
| luke-jr | The company exists for the customers and employees. | 10:07 |
| luke-jr | Not vice-versa. | 10:07 |
| lardman | no, the company exists for the shareholders | 10:08 |
| luke-jr | I couldn't care less about "the company". | 10:08 |
| RST38h | johnx: So, have we gone to Conspiracy phase while I was away working? | 10:08 |
| luke-jr | lardman: no, that misconception is why modern companies are so flawed | 10:08 |
| lardman | how is it misconceived? | 10:08 |
| johnx | yeah, tired of talking | 10:08 |
| RST38h | lardman is essentially correct | 10:08 |
| johnx | RST38h, nah, just Nokia bashing cause they don't give people the code to grenade their batteries | 10:09 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: We are all here in pay of Nokia. You should eat the blue pill quick to get back to comfortable reality. | 10:09 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: if you think a proper LiIon battery is easy to "grenade" (not raw cell, but the whole battery!) you're wrong. | 10:09 |
| RST38h | johnx: I would not | 10:09 |
| lardman | really if someone wanted to and was willing to fry a couple of batteries, they could work out how the hw worked | 10:09 |
| johnx | RST38h, you make it sound like we're not all just one guy with multiple nicks :) | 10:09 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i will | 10:09 |
| RST38h | johnx: Battery charging and powersave code is so...mmmhm...specialized, that it is not of much use to OSS community anyway | 10:10 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: batteries include protection circuits on its own, even old bl-5c does. | 10:10 |
| RST38h | johnx: Also very sensitive in terms of NDAs with SoC manufacturer (i.e. TI) | 10:10 |
| RST38h | johnx: Of course we are just one guy, we are the puppets | 10:11 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: and the cases where batteries failed are due to the manufacturing process, that couldn't have been helped by any "specialised" software. | 10:11 |
| luke-jr | N8x0 battery charging has nothing to do with TI | 10:11 |
| Stskeeps | luke-jr: actually there might actually be | 10:11 |
| Stskeeps | twl something | 10:11 |
| luke-jr | ? | 10:11 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: how come? | 10:11 |
| RST38h | johnx: I suggest we declare Qgil to be the puppet master and spread this information as wide as possible, so the next time he comes here he gets mighty surprised =) | 10:11 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: I bow to your superior battery wisdom, but we don't actually know if the Nokia batteries has heat cutouts do we? | 10:12 |
| suihkulokki | luke-jr: which wifi driver do you use on your gentoo-n8x0 ? | 10:12 |
| johnx | RST38h, heh. that poor guy catches so much crap :) | 10:12 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Ok, let me put it plainly for you: | 10:12 |
| luke-jr | suihkulokki: depends on which kernel is booted | 10:12 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: if you claim the code is useless to everybody anyway, why not just release it and let others decide if they like it or not? | 10:12 |
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| RST38h | PaulFertser: There are two things in your gadget firmware with which you DO NOT want to mess AT ALL | 10:12 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: no heat cutouts i guess. | 10:12 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: These are battery charging and clock control | 10:12 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: the second one may also be known as power save to some people | 10:13 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: tell me the way to do something nasty with a modern LiIon battery please. | 10:13 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Notice that I am not working for Nokia and am in fact talking based on my experience with a different, non-OMAP chip | 10:13 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i have some spares so i can afford experimenting. | 10:13 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: not about raw cell, but about a good battery. | 10:14 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: The reason why you do not want to mess with them is because what they do heavily depends on the analog circuitry inside your device, the battery type used, etc. | 10:14 |
| PaulFertser | I've read of no report ever about LiIon batteries doing anything nasty because of being mistreated. Only manufacturing deficiencies that are unrelated to the charging software. | 10:15 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: If people start messing with item #1, they will most likely get dead batteries (not necessarily exploded) and/or dead devices in some cases | 10:15 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: and _I_ want to know and understand analog circuity inside _my_ device, i think that's a reasonable expectation. | 10:15 |
| lardman | I don't | 10:15 |
| lardman | really | 10:15 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: If people mess with item #2 (power save) they again end up with dead batteries (just over longer period of time) and sometimes with dead SoC chips | 10:15 |
| lardman | do you want to know how the combustion swirl is achieved inside your car engine? | 10:16 |
| luke-jr | lardman: you don't-- by your choice or by someone else telling you no? | 10:16 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i got a dead battery in my laptop already, i think if i could control it it would serve me longer. | 10:16 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Now, if you would like to understand how battery charging and powersave features work in modern SoCs, I suggest you start with Google and Wikipedia | 10:16 |
| lardman | luke-jr: You may want something, but it being a reasonable expectation is another matter | 10:16 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: (engine) interesting | 10:16 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: I am sure this information should be in the open somewhere, just not on the particular SoC (OMAP3) | 10:16 |
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| luke-jr | lardman: it is perfectly reasonable to expect Joe to have no say about what Fred does with Fred's device. | 10:17 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: how is battery charging related to any SoC? | 10:17 |
| RST38h | PaulFerster: If, after reading up on these subjects, you STILL want to mess with your device, talk to Sts or lardman and they will tell you what they know | 10:17 |
| Venomrush | anyone know why some apps in the repo aren't displaying in App Mgr even after refresh? | 10:17 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: as to the clocks, there's also an important issue: mainline support. | 10:17 |
| johnx | Venomrush, showing up for other people but not you? or showing up in apt but not the GUI app manager? | 10:18 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: If all you want to do is bitch about how it is Nokia conspiracy and how "all code should be free", keep in mind that we have heard it many many times here. So you are being boring, not revolutionary | 10:18 |
| lardman | charging is carried out by a chip | 10:18 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: kernel interfaces do and will change. And that is for good. Having all dynamic clocking needed for you device upstream helps a lot. And not having it frustrates community developers to no end. | 10:18 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: (being boring) always is, not a surprise | 10:18 |
| Venomrush | in GUI app mgr | 10:18 |
| johnx | Venomrush, are they in the right "Section:"? | 10:19 |
| johnx | "Section: user/foo" for example | 10:19 |
| RST38h | PaulFerster: Once again: you do not want to mess with clocks and SoC core voltages unless you KNOW wat you are doing | 10:19 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: In fact, even with an official set of datasheets it is unadvisable | 10:19 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: but i've read some important stuff about liion batteries. And i've seen schematics. And i'm taking care of pcf50633 driver which charges batteries on our freerunners. | 10:19 |
| Venomrush | nope, not even in any, i 'scanned' throuh All, not there either, Search didn't show up with anything | 10:19 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Then your itch to mess with battery charging should be satisfied :) | 10:20 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: unless i need to run free software on n810, yes. | 10:20 |
| johnx | Venomrush, that's not exactly what I mean. If the section isn't "user/*" then it won't show up | 10:20 |
| * RST38h has no problems running free software on n810 | 10:21 | |
| Venomrush | johnx, i don't quite understand | 10:21 |
| johnx | if it's in the repo, and you tell me the package name I think I could look and tell you | 10:21 |
| lardman | hmm, anyone here used maemo-version? | 10:21 |
| lardman | I have, amongst other things: gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad-dev | maemo-version (<5.0) | 10:22 |
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| lardman | yet on Diablo it's complaining: mbarcode depends on gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad; | 10:23 |
| johnx | Venomrush, from the x terminal, run apt-cache show <your package> | 10:23 |
| johnx | it should say "Section: <something>" if that "<something>" doesn't match "user/*" it won't show up in the application manager | 10:23 |
| Venomrush | johnx, repo: extras-testing | package: iNES | 10:23 |
| johnx | Venomrush, for maemo4 or maemo5? | 10:24 |
| Venomrush | maemo5 | 10:24 |
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| RST38h | Venomrush: I am sorry, are you using a real N900? | 10:24 |
| Venomrush | i'm using SDK btw | 10:24 |
| Venomrush | not real N90 | 10:24 |
| Venomrush | *N900 | 10:24 |
| RST38h | Venomrush: Then forget about running iNES, AlmostTI, etc | 10:24 |
| Venomrush | any particular reasons? | 10:25 |
| * RST38h now understands what is going on | 10:25 | |
| RST38h | Won't work on the SDK. | 10:25 |
| Venomrush | ah, what's the reason? | 10:25 |
| RST38h | That is the reason :) | 10:26 |
| Venomrush | Does flash work in SDK? | 10:26 |
| RST38h | Who knows... | 10:26 |
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| lardman | emulation issue? | 10:26 |
| * RST38h stopped trying running anything on the SDK after file-open dialog crashed it in Chinook | 10:26 | |
| johnx | Venomrush, aaaah, so you're on the X86 target. got it | 10:27 |
| lardman | yeah, I don;t bother either | 10:27 |
| RST38h | lardman: Well, there are huge chunks of handwritten ARM assembly in my stuff | 10:27 |
| RST38h | lardman: It is banging fb0 like crazy | 10:27 |
| lardman | yeah, that would be troublesome for the x86 target ;) | 10:27 |
| Venomrush | johnx, yup i'm on x86 target | 10:27 |
| RST38h | lardman: And the ARM emulation in the SDK is a freaking minefield | 10:27 |
| Venomrush | should i change? | 10:27 |
| johnx | yeah, I'm positive ines won't compile for x86 | 10:27 |
| lardman | yeah, I've seen that | 10:27 |
| RST38h | Venomrush: You should get a real device. | 10:27 |
| RST38h | johnx: Well, it will, just not the Maemo version :) | 10:28 |
| johnx | RST38h, right | 10:28 |
| Venomrush | RST38h i pre-ordered since Sept mate..disappointed still haven't receive it | 10:28 |
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| Venomrush | RST38h, not able to get it through DDP too atm | 10:28 |
| RST38h | Well, just wait then | 10:29 |
| johnx | Venomrush, just wait a little longer. the SDK really isn't that great for a lot of things, especially emulators | 10:29 |
| lardman | where is Jeremiah when I need debianisation help!? | 10:29 |
| lardman | :) | 10:29 |
| RST38h | Because SDK will not get you very far in terms of use. It is for developing apps not for running them | 10:29 |
| Venomrush | thanks guys | 10:30 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: btw, if you can give some particular advice or example of ill effects due to messing with clocks/voltages, it'd be very nice of you; it can help me in my future activities. Zaranee spasibo. | 10:32 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Well, I can only talk of personal experiences | 10:33 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: so can you share some? | 10:33 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: First of all, you have to take into account that your CPU and SDRAM clocks are usually related through a divider | 10:33 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: And there is only a handful of their combinations, you can't change them at will | 10:34 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: sure | 10:34 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Now, SDRAM chips usually do not go faster than 160MHz or so | 10:34 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: And even at these frequencies they become flakey | 10:34 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: PLLs, dividers, different clocking options, maximum frequencies, that's well known. | 10:35 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Also, even if you THINK you have got the right clock frequencies, and they are in allowed ranges, other IP blocks included into the SoC may start breaking down, so you have to keep CPU/SDRAM clocks down | 10:36 |
| PaulFertser | And btw recent advaces in Linux are making handling of all the constraints, gating option etc much easier than it used to be. | 10:36 |
| RST38h | (in my cases it was the display controller DMA causing memory conflicts) | 10:36 |
| RST38h | Man, this has nothing to do with Linux. Has everything to do with the physics of particular chips. May even differ in behavior from one batch of chips to another. | 10:37 |
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| RST38h | Also, higher clocks require higher core voltages. Higher core voltages cause exponential grow in power consumption and also add heat | 10:38 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i understand that hardware limitations are inevitable. But they become more manageable with a good clocking framework inside the kernel. | 10:38 |
| RST38h | For example, one of Nokia guys wanred us that we should not keep OMAP3 at top clock rates for long time, as it will physically damage the chip | 10:38 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: was it true? | 10:39 |
| johnx | no one knows yet :) | 10:39 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: They become manageable with a good engineer who has access to classified information and tunes your low level firmware before you get to play with your Linux on the device | 10:39 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: TI should | 10:39 |
| johnx | I'm looking forward to the first person finding out | 10:39 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Wanna test it? | 10:39 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, they didn't design the N900's case | 10:39 |
| suihkulokki | omap3 trm is public and it should have pretty much all clock/pll/divider etc info | 10:40 |
| RST38h | Correct: this stuff depends on the Soc itself, the place on the board where it is mounted, the heat transfer rates through the case, the analog circuitry, the battery, etc | 10:40 |
| johnx | and the cpufreq code would be a pretty good guide as well, I'd imagine | 10:40 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: (low level firmware) how is dynamic clocking can be managed then? With the help of the firmware hooks outside the kernel? I didn't think that is considered a good option by the core Linux devs. | 10:40 |
| RST38h | And even if it works for you, it may break for 5 people out of a 100 and Nokia still has a support disaster | 10:41 |
| suihkulokki | there is no firmware :) it's all in the kernel. | 10:41 |
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| RST38h | suihkulokki: there is still a bootprep of some kind, I reckon? | 10:41 |
| PaulFertser | johnx: you know how the rumors spread. Probably somebody at nokia tried running at top speed and the case got hot and he told somebody that it shouldn't be done etc. | 10:42 |
| lardman | yeah the bootloader sets up the hw | 10:42 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: I do not know. In the SoC I worked with, running EA Linux, it was partially managed by the kernel, and there also was some low level library that kernel used | 10:42 |
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| RST38h | PaulFertser: By all means, get an N900 and try overclocking shit out of it | 10:42 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: the guy who said it is involved in low level stuff, so I believe what he said | 10:42 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: sets up the initial state. But PLLs and gating is managed on kernel level thereafter. | 10:42 |
| suihkulokki | RST38h: some stuff is preset in the bootloader and ofcourse there is bootrom to find the boootloader, but it doesn't do anything after the boot | 10:43 |
| johnx | PaulFertser, like I said: I'm looking forward to someone seeing if it's true | 10:43 |
| johnx | either way, I'm sure I'll enjoy the results :) | 10:43 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki: Aha, pretty much corresponds to what I have seen with other platforms | 10:43 |
| suihkulokki | eg. it is not like pc where the kernel calls the acpi firmware to do power managment | 10:43 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki: bootprep sets SDRAM config, initializes clocks and power to some safe configuration, then boots Linux and lets it do the rest | 10:43 |
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| RST38h | And the kernel is linked ot a few manufacturer supplied files that do low level stuff | 10:44 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: i hope there's no chance for misunderstanding him? Did he mentioned the temperature? Or what? | 10:44 |
| lardman | he didn't say why, just said not to do it | 10:44 |
| RST38h | lardman: my guess is that you also start hitting corner cases at higher frequencies | 10:45 |
| suihkulokki | RST38h: yeah, but the clocks and sdram config is modified from the kernel all the time as kernel switches the omap3 off whenever nothing is done on the cpu | 10:45 |
| lardman | I would have assumed thermal, but I guess the SoC has thermal protection, so presumably something else | 10:45 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: sorry, but claims like that doesn't sound credibly. Quite the opposite :( | 10:45 |
| lardman | well it's credible in my eyes | 10:45 |
| RST38h | lardman: as in "when memory accesses are x cycles apart, the second access returns garbage" | 10:45 |
| lardman | RST38h: that won't break the device though, and that's what he said iirc | 10:46 |
| RST38h | lardman: then it must be thermal | 10:46 |
| johnx | lardman, what's the motive for getting up on stage and not telling the truth about that topic? | 10:46 |
| PaulFertser | suihkulokki: i think it's not calling acpi firmware, it's rather intepreting acpi-scripts. | 10:46 |
| lardman | I'll just send him an email and ask what the outcome is shall I? | 10:46 |
| lardman | johnx: none, I quite agree with you | 10:46 |
| lardman | johnx: I didn't suggest that | 10:46 |
| johnx | lardman, sorry. wasn't aimed at you :) | 10:46 |
| lardman | lol, np | 10:46 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki: yea, in the kernel I have seen, there was a whole power management framework for that with arrays of settings for each power level | 10:47 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: so in the end kernel devs want to mess with clocking ;) | 10:47 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki: the more or less generic Linux part was responsible for converting these settings to whatever low-level lib understood and calling that lib | 10:47 |
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| RST38h | PaulFertser: to a degree | 10:48 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: although usually these settings get tuned by the electrical engineer not by linux kernel devs | 10:48 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: if you say kernel should use a proprietary lib to do that, you're never getting upstream support i guess. | 10:48 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: you have made a pointless statement | 10:48 |
| suihkulokki | RST38h: if you mean by lib "clock framework" yes | 10:49 |
| RST38h | They do not NEED "upstream support" for 3-4 files with functions that midify their own proprietary SoC registers | 10:49 |
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| RST38h | suihkulokki: in the code I have seen they simply used a few files from their pre-linux platform to do the low level stuff, with the standard linux clock framework calling them | 10:50 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: they do need upstream support so the user can just git clone a recent bug-fixed feature-full kernel.org kernel and use it without additional compatibility problems to solve. | 10:50 |
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| javispedro | what's up with everyone calling the SDK the "Maemo emulator"? *sigh* | 10:51 |
| TheUser | PaulFertser: What is "git"? What is "clone"? What is "kernel"? | 10:51 |
| TheUser | PaulFertser: I just want to play a movie on my N900, ok? | 10:51 |
| *** TheUser is now known as RST38h | 10:51 | |
| RST38h | javispedro: You should ask Venomrush | 10:51 |
| suihkulokki | RST38h: the stuff n900 does is all included in the board-rx51* files in the kernel | 10:52 |
| RST38h | javispedro: He planted that idea :) | 10:52 |
| javispedro | TheUser: what is compatibility? what is problems? waht is bug? what is feature-full? ;) | 10:52 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Exactly :) | 10:52 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: come on, you enjoy using mainline kernel on your laptop, do not you? Would you prefer to go through pains of compiling it with some strange vendor-provided lib every time you want to update the kernel version? | 10:52 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: No | 10:52 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: I run WinXP. | 10:52 |
| RST38h | Next question? | 10:52 |
| PaulFertser | ROFL | 10:52 |
| javispedro | PaulFertser: if that allows me to run nvidiacrappy 3d graphics, I'd consider it. | 10:53 |
| javispedro | in fact, I DO it. | 10:53 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki: I guess for them it was the result of having a complete platform when they started doing Linux | 10:53 |
| PaulFertser | javispedro: i'd prefer to lack 3d support altogether. Or use ati or intel cards that have some more sane policy towards good OSs. | 10:54 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki: Did not want to drop and rewrite everything. But they did stick all those files into a proper platform directory under the Linux src tree :) | 10:54 |
| javispedro | PaulFertser: well congrats. OpenMoko is still on business :) | 10:54 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: So you should probably stick with Freerunner | 10:54 |
| javispedro | heh. | 10:54 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Even with OpenMoko out of business, the People should be able ot maintain it forever | 10:54 |
| RST38h | It is OSS! | 10:55 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: unfortunately it sucks in too many aspects too. :( | 10:55 |
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| RST38h | PaulFertser: BTW, can you make phone calls with it? | 10:55 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i use it as my only cellphone for a year now. | 10:55 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: and yes, i can make and receive phone calls. | 10:55 |
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| PaulFertser | GPRS support is there too. But not EDGE. Not even mentioning 3G. | 10:55 |
| RST38h | cooool | 10:55 |
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| RST38h | PaulFertser: You know that Soviets already tried technological progress based on sheer enthusiasm once? | 10:56 |
| javispedro | I guess the morning "it's not full OSS" argument is going to become a tradition here. | 10:57 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Are you aware of the results? | 10:57 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: if you're talking about "intensifikatsia" during Gorbachev's times, yes. | 10:57 |
| RST38h | No, I am talking about the whole encihlada | 10:57 |
| RST38h | ES10xx series, SMxxxx series, ES184x (PC clones) | 10:58 |
| RST38h | Pocket calcs | 10:58 |
| RST38h | Cars | 10:58 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i drive a soviet car ;) | 10:58 |
| RST38h | A Lada? | 10:58 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: vaz21013 1200cc 1983 | 10:59 |
| PaulFertser | All schematics are available :P | 10:59 |
| javispedro | oh no, no, no, the maemo emulator "concept" is leakinga all over the web :( | 10:59 |
| PaulFertser | (well, in fact no, i do not have schematics for the ingition module) | 11:00 |
| RST38h | Paul: You know that they are still MAKING those? | 11:00 |
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| lardman | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8367141.stm Yay! | 11:00 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i think AvtoVAZ doesn't produce 2106/7 anymore. They're focused on Chevy Niva, Lada Kalina and some other "modern" shit. | 11:01 |
| RST38h | Paul: In spite of the whole country basically screaming to close the factory, kill all the workers and bury them in a mass grave, and cover the whole place with aslphalt? | 11:01 |
| javispedro | Spanish research! don't trust. | 11:01 |
| javispedro | ;) | 11:01 |
| RST38h | Paul: 2106/2105/2107/2104 production has now been moved to Chechnya | 11:01 |
| lardman | javispedro: well I can trust it if I like the sound of it :) | 11:01 |
| * RST38h laughs diabolically: no more bombs, now these guys can just produce the mobile capsules of death =) | 11:01 | |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: so it's not "they" who are still producing that ancient models. | 11:01 |
| RST38h | Paul: 2109 is no more modern than 2107 | 11:02 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: the soviet technological progress was based on military requirements, not on a sheer enthusiasm. | 11:02 |
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| *** hrw|gone is now known as hrw | 11:02 | |
| RST38h | Paul: Just in case you wonder, 2170/71/72 is pretty much a 2110 in a slightly restyled body | 11:02 |
| lardman | http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8366190.stm cool | 11:02 |
| hrw | morning | 11:03 |
| lardman | hi hrw | 11:03 |
| RST38h | Paul: Let me see... no competition, no profit, no salaries... Must be sheer enthusiasm, right? | 11:03 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i think i can compare 2109 and 2107, 2109 is really better. Much better suspension system, better steering etc. | 11:03 |
| RST38h | PaulFertser: Why don't you compare 2109 with a Ford Escort? | 11:04 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: there was also fear. And competition, even tenders among different organisations. | 11:04 |
| javispedro | oh, there's now a rumour out there which guarantees you're going to receive a free dc-11 (external battery) as compensation for the n900 delay. | 11:04 |
| lardman | javispedro: where's all this stuff coming from? | 11:05 |
| * lardman wonders why no-one has compiled Maemo-mapper for Fremantle | 11:05 | |
| javispedro | lardman: http://www.elrincondelmaemo.com/Foro/content.php?42-Nokia-se-disculpa-por-el-retraso-del-N900-con-regalo-incluido (spanish) | 11:05 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: have never driven a ford, so unfortunately not. But i can compare with Daewoo Nexia. Basically it's as shitty as my 2101. | 11:05 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: crashed last time i tried to use it personally | 11:05 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: is it available somewhere? | 11:05 |
| Stskeeps | in git repo | 11:05 |
| lardman | ah ok | 11:05 |
| tigert | did gnuite move on or what happened to maemo-mapper development? | 11:06 |
| * lardman thinks of Ordnance Survey map overlays | 11:06 | |
| lardman | tigert: he's working for Google now | 11:06 |
| * suihkulokki wonders how autovaz has failed to modernize so badly | 11:06 | |
| *** fluff|afk is now known as fluff | 11:06 | |
| tigert | lardman: ah | 11:06 |
| tigert | the black hole of hackers :( | 11:06 |
| lardman | so I think slight conflict of interest too | 11:06 |
| tigert | that too yeah | 11:06 |
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| * javispedro notices the mail the quote looks totally fake | 11:06 | |
| javispedro | s/the/they | 11:07 |
| lardman | now that it's a bit later in the morning, has anyone here used maemo-version? | 11:07 |
| suihkulokki | I mean, china, korea, india and the rest of east europe where at the lada 2101 stage in the '80s too, but the managed to actually keep with times and are now even exporting to europe | 11:07 |
| javispedro | lardman: I use maemo-version but not on build-depends | 11:07 |
| javispedro | well, I put in in build-depends as is then use the /etc/maemo_version file to conditionally build on debian/rules file | 11:08 |
| lardman | seems to work for build depends, just not for the installation package | 11:08 |
| javispedro | the package is not on device | 11:08 |
| javispedro | only sdk repo | 11:08 |
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| javispedro | oh, cool windows. | 11:08 |
| lardman | javispedro: yeah but I guess when the control file is created it should strip out those packages which weren't used? | 11:09 |
| javispedro | a giant popup opened telling me there was a Visual C++ runtime error in firefox.exe | 11:09 |
| hrw | PaulFertser: anyway Lada 210x is Fiat 124 | 11:09 |
| javispedro | but it still works. | 11:09 |
| hrw | did someone got DDP n900 shipped? | 11:09 |
| PaulFertser | suihkulokki: russia as a whole is too fucked up, no wonder a big former state-sponsored car manufacturer can't do anything in a decent way. | 11:09 |
| javispedro | lardman: just don't depend on maemo-version, only build-depend | 11:09 |
| lardman | balls, I see my mistake now | 11:09 |
| lardman | user-error | 11:10 |
| * lardman hides in shame | 11:10 | |
| RST38h | Paul: Let us leave bastardized korean opel alone | 11:10 |
| javispedro | why I have this feeling that if I click "OK" on the runtime error popup the entire perfectly working firefox will close | 11:10 |
| RST38h | Paul: Compare to a normal contemporary car of the same class | 11:10 |
| * javispedro clicks | 11:10 | |
| PaulFertser | hrw: not exactly. Soviet engineers modified it somewhat. E.g. Fiat 124 has rear disk brakes while 2101 features rear drum brakes. Also many other little features that were actually important at the times, like better and more sturdy suspension to drive on shitty roads etc. | 11:11 |
| RST38h | Paul: Escort, Mazda 323, even Kia | 11:11 |
| RST38h | Paul: And yes, you are allowed to compare to 2110 if you wish | 11:11 |
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| RST38h | Paul: You will immediately see what I mean by non-profit development leading nowhere | 11:12 |
| * javispedro_ sighs | 11:12 | |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: so, what's your point? That avtovaz can't make a decent car? No doubt. But can you offer me a decent alternative to the old Niva? As cheap, as reliable, as small and as suitable for (not so) moderate offroad? | 11:12 |
| suihkulokki | recent developments: "VAZ has also tried to get into the sportier markets: several Ladas were factory-tuned and given a Momo steering wheel." | 11:12 |
| RST38h | Paul: My point is that you need business competition, with all the "bad" things that flow from it | 11:12 |
| RST38h | Paul: Little Honda HRV works for us here | 11:13 |
| hrw | PaulFertser: sure. Polish guys also improved Fiat 125 during production of Polish Fiat 125p/FSO1500/Polonez | 11:13 |
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| RST38h | suihkulokki: VAX is a Russian Amtrak. | 11:13 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: price and offroad qualities are not comparable i think. | 11:13 |
| RST38h | VAZ, sorry | 11:13 |
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| *** javispedro_ is now known as javispedro | 11:14 | |
| RST38h | Paul: As far as I am concerned, HRV is enough. Neither of them has a frame, and if you want a Russian offroad, get a freaking UAZ | 11:14 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i think that the competition should be technical, not business. When the best feature/framework/device is judged on technical merits, not by some illiterate guys who can't even compile a kernel themselves. | 11:14 |
| RST38h | Paul: And deal with Willis GP hardware designed in 1940s | 11:14 |
| RST38h | Paul: Technical merits do not pay for food. | 11:15 |
| RST38h | Money does. | 11:15 |
| Stskeeps | anyone got a n8x0 handy? does /mnt/initfs/lib/ contain anything with c++? | 11:15 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: you're talking like it's hard for any educated westerner to get enough food. Come on, it's not about the food. It's about buying useless consumerists things. You do not really need much money for food. | 11:16 |
| RST38h | Paul: Mmmm.../// | 11:16 |
| * RST38h will let educated westerners answer that | 11:16 | |
| lardman | Stskeeps: no | 11:16 |
| lardman | as in *c++* ? | 11:17 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: o | 11:17 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: no | 11:17 |
| lardman | my caviar and champagne for dinner every night makes a fair hole in my pay packet | 11:18 |
| lardman | ;) | 11:18 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: if you want a "decent" house, car etc, and take loans even for the furniture, then of course you need money. But if you do not value imaginary goodies, you can probably get by doing whatever you like. | 11:19 |
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| RST38h | So you do not want a decent house? And you do not need a car? | 11:20 |
| alterego | It's expensiv even for a not decent house where I live .. | 11:20 |
| RST38h | And eating out of garbage bins is fine? | 11:20 |
| lardman | I guess hand held electronic devices come under the not needed category | 11:20 |
| RST38h | lardman: Freerunner. | 11:20 |
| hrw | RST38h: that useless imitation of devboard? | 11:21 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: i live in a flat here. And buying a new flat in Moscow is impossible for an ordinary engineer anyway, so i do not even bother thinking about that. I can buy a more modern car but i do not need it, i can live without a car whatsoever. And i do not need no fucking furniture. | 11:21 |
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| alterego | Calm down :P | 11:22 |
| * RST38h bought a flat in Moscow | 11:22 | |
| PaulFertser | hrw: that useless device is my only cellphone. And i met quite some nice people and learned a lot while having fun with it. So it's definetely worth it. | 11:22 |
| RST38h | Paul: But we were talking about educated westerners ;) | 11:22 |
| * lardman heads to work, bbiab | 11:22 | |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: tell me russia is not Europe | 11:22 |
| *** lardman has quit IRC | 11:22 | |
| Stskeeps | hrw: k | 11:23 |
| RST38h | Paul: It is Eurasia, the second part is important | 11:23 |
| hrw | PaulFertser: ok, for you it is worth. I have two neo1973 devices and do not remember when list time touched any of them | 11:23 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: so you mean it's easier to live doing "honest" engineering in russia than in the usa? | 11:23 |
| PaulFertser | hrw: you're on the other level of involvment. | 11:24 |
| RST38h | Paul: I know of very few places in Russia where you can do engineering | 11:24 |
| RST38h | Paul: Most of them are offices of foreign companies | 11:24 |
| RST38h | Paul: Let us count: Sun, Boeing, Intel, Cisco | 11:24 |
| javispedro | typical tmo thread: is there handwriting avail? qwerty: NO! there's this beta soft you may want to help. tmo user: ah, so THERE IS handwriting. | 11:24 |
| RST38h | javis: qwerty should stop at NO | 11:24 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i do not think i'd like working for corporations | 11:25 |
| Stskeeps | at the moment i'm pondering if PB's hacker forum wasn't a bad idea. | 11:25 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:25 |
| RST38h | Paul: who do you work for then? | 11:25 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: small company that produces UPSes for telephony and other electronical stuff. | 11:25 |
| aquatix | RST38h: :) | 11:26 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: and btw i could easily live by doing private tutoring, teaching maths/physics/programming or something like that. It's really easy. | 11:26 |
| RST38h | Paul: Yes, but will you be creating something new? | 11:27 |
| RST38h | Paul: Are you creating something new right now? | 11:27 |
| RST38h | <will be back in ~5-10 minutes> | 11:27 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: i can make a living working part-time so i have plenty of free time to do whatever i like, including creating something new. And btw even helping fellow openmokoers is important in my opinion. | 11:28 |
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| hrw | heh... when I will finally clean desk.. | 11:29 |
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| PaulFertser | Honestly, to me it seems like earning money is overrated, most people get more than they need and yet feel unhappy because they're trapped in a consumerist society. | 11:33 |
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| hrw | PaulFertser: it depends on where you live, do you have family or not and few other things | 11:33 |
| PaulFertser | hrw: indeed. But still. "Nice" car or "nice" bed or other thingks like that is what most engineers have. Meaning they've earned enough to buy things thinking that buying makes one happy. | 11:35 |
| * aquatix drives a 1996 car and is quite happy | 11:35 | |
| PaulFertser | It's about the life attitude. /me would prefer sleeping on the floor or DIYing a bed rather than buying one. | 11:37 |
| * aquatix doesn't have the time for DIYing one :( | 11:38 | |
| aquatix | of course i can make time | 11:38 |
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| RST38h | back | 11:40 |
| *** florian_kc is now known as florian | 11:40 | |
| RST38h | PaulFerster: lemme guess: single, no children? | 11:40 |
| hrw | aquatix: I sold my 97 one and drive 2006 one | 11:41 |
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| aquatix | hrw: i might do something similar after next year, which will be an expensive year :) | 11:42 |
| alterego | RST38h: "single, no children, no job"? :) | 11:44 |
| RST38h | alterego: hey, that is unfair he has got a job | 11:45 |
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| florian | good morning | 11:45 |
| RST38h | I just doubt the desire to sleep on the floor is gonna last through his marriage | 11:46 |
| alterego | Hahah | 11:46 |
| alterego | Looks like no-one will get their devices before Christmas :) | 11:47 |
| Stskeeps | source? | 11:47 |
| javispedro | I though the NIH virus only affected corporations, not individuals. | 11:47 |
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| alterego | Is Deja-Vu a valid source? :) | 11:47 |
| viq | my-symbian.com guy got a release phone for review yesterday ;) | 11:47 |
| RST38h | depends on the drugs you used | 11:47 |
| alterego | O, yeah, Americans always win . :( | 11:47 |
| viq | alterego: he's not american | 11:48 |
| alterego | Really? | 11:48 |
| viq | Really. | 11:48 |
| viq | Central Europe. | 11:48 |
| RST38h | my-symbian fellow is Serbian I think | 11:48 |
| RST38h | or Romanian | 11:48 |
| viq | Nope ;) | 11:48 |
| alterego | Oh | 11:48 |
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| suihkulokki | considering the symbian "success" in america I find it unlikely a site called "my-symbian" being there =) | 11:49 |
| viq | He's from (and in) Poland | 11:49 |
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| alterego | Great, so the Polish are stealing all the N900's :P | 11:49 |
| *** petrux_ is now known as petrux | 11:49 | |
| alterego | I wish I'd gone to Amsterdam instead of Iceland now :( | 11:49 |
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| viq | I wish, it would mean I'd have one ;) | 11:50 |
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| tbf | viq: one, two weeks, and it will have reached shops. | 11:51 |
| javispedro | I seriously expect it to ship this week or next | 11:51 |
| javispedro | heh. | 11:51 |
| Stskeeps | 'Nokia does it again! All attendees of #Maemo Developer Days to get an #N900!!' | 11:51 |
| alterego | This week is pretty much over. | 11:51 |
| Stskeeps | damnit, should have gone to copenhagen | 11:51 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps: want more?? | 11:51 |
| alterego | I don't expect it to ship before mid next week. | 11:52 |
| javispedro | do you plan to build yourself a home using n900 as bricks or what | 11:52 |
| javispedro | ;) | 11:52 |
| tbf | viq: seems the boat's tour from korea to the states is quicker, than the tour to europe | 11:52 |
| tbf | viq: ...hmm... when looking at the globe it indeed could be. | 11:52 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Oh | 11:52 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: i turn the n900s back into crazy men and use them as slaves around the house | 11:52 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps:What do you need the second one for? | 11:52 |
| javispedro | see above :) | 11:53 |
| viq | tbf: hehe | 11:53 |
| alterego | I might buy an extra BL-5J battery. | 11:53 |
| RST38h | Umgh | 11:53 |
| alterego | Then I can starte at the battery until I get the N900 | 11:53 |
| javispedro | content!! freedom of expression! open source!!!! open ended!!!!!!!!! | 11:53 |
| RST38h | alterego: ain't you going to get closer with that battery? | 11:53 |
| RST38h | I mean, "stare" does not sound involved enough | 11:54 |
| alterego | hEH | 11:54 |
| hrw | hmm. someone here used maemo5sdk virtual image? | 11:54 |
| * javispedro loves the "menacing but cute" n900 look on the maemoproject ad | 11:55 | |
| javispedro | i wonder if sliding the keyboard out and in by itself means the n900 is angry. | 11:55 |
| RST38h | "European Keyboard Layout Protest" thread...yummy | 11:55 |
| * RST38h gets the popcorn | 11:55 | |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: cursor keys | 11:55 |
| Stskeeps | probably | 11:55 |
| hrw | alterego: I wish if that would be true... 'Great, so the Polish are stealing all the N900's :P' | 11:56 |
| RST38h | Sts: but of course. | 11:56 |
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| RST38h | Are there any old forum members left there? | 11:57 |
| RST38h | All I see is Sep-Nov 2009 | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | waiting for the storm to blow over | 11:57 |
| RST38h | Will it ever though? =( | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | soon enough.. | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:57 |
| javispedro | eternal september | 11:57 |
| hrw | GuySoft: is it normal that maemo5sdk do not display textinputs/checkboxes? | 11:58 |
| hrw | sorry GuySoft | 11:58 |
| hrw | all: is it normal that maemo5sdk do not display textinputs/checkboxes? | 11:59 |
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| nnod_ | is there a zenity type command for maemo 5? | 11:59 |
| javispedro | dunno for gtkcheckboxes, but it displays HildonCheckButtons fine. | 12:00 |
| Stskeeps | seems like some people are getting shipping confirmation | 12:00 |
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| alterego | Damn Polish :P | 12:01 |
| hrw | alterego: shutup please ;D | 12:01 |
| javispedro | yeaj | 12:01 |
| alterego | Heh | 12:01 |
| javispedro | the fansites are all over it | 12:01 |
| hrw | alterego: I am from Poland and waits over week for DDP device | 12:01 |
| alterego | Dhould have ordered it sooner :P | 12:02 |
| alterego | ~Shoulod .. | 12:02 |
| javispedro | you waited just a week? I'm still waiting! | 12:02 |
| javispedro | ;) | 12:02 |
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| hrw | javispedro: http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/tmp/nokia1.jpg | 12:02 |
| hrw | javispedro: I am waiting still | 12:02 |
| Stskeeps | heh, if you think n900 is expensive.. we recently got "multimedia tax" in denmark, which means a tax on internet connected devices. one of the shops that companies use to avoid this tax, charges 1999 usd for a iphone 3gs, - and it is even only borrowed :P | 12:02 |
| javispedro | hrw: clearly, something is wrong | 12:02 |
| hrw | javispedro: that screenshot is from official maemo5sdk virtualimage | 12:02 |
| Stskeeps | hrw: yeah, noone recieved it | 12:02 |
| hrw | javispedro: question is what.. | 12:02 |
| Stskeeps | wazd o/ | 12:03 |
| wazd | heya all :) | 12:03 |
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| alterego | Has anyone named their N900 yet? | 12:03 |
| CoreFusion- | Marlin | 12:04 |
| CoreFusion- | hehe, just kidding :P | 12:04 |
| alterego | Craom | 12:04 |
| alterego | I mean crap, what is wrong with my typing today. | 12:04 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: yep. But i guess i'd need more money if i had children, not if i had a wife. | 12:04 |
| Stskeeps | riight. | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 12:05 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: in fact i have 2 jobs. I work part-time as an embedded developer and part-time as a university tutor. | 12:06 |
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| RST38h | Paul: Still, the question remains: are you creating anything new? | 12:09 |
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| RST38h | Paul: Let us say, a guy designing engine blades for the RRJ will see that plane flying and he can point and say: I designed part of that. | 12:10 |
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| philn-tp | hi | 12:10 |
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| philn-tp | inside sbox, trying to connect to my host pulseaudio i get pulsesink0: Failed to connect: Connection terminated | 12:11 |
| Lynoure | RST38h: "new" is a relative term. | 12:11 |
| RST38h | Paul: Can you do something similar? | 12:11 |
| RST38h | Lynoure: Well, something that a lot of other people will use | 12:11 |
| philn-tp | i configured host to run PA in daemon mode and copied the pulse cookie in sbox | 12:11 |
| RST38h | Somethignn that did not exist before | 12:11 |
| Lynoure | RST38h: those two things are very separate | 12:12 |
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| RST38h | Lyonoure: Let us apply an OR here | 12:12 |
| Lynoure | One can create something new that only a small set of people have use for. And many things a lot of people will use are just reinvention and glue. | 12:12 |
| aquatix | and something like that is quite rare | 12:12 |
| aquatix | Lynoure: indeed | 12:13 |
| zaheerm-lp | philn-tp, sounds bad :) | 12:13 |
| RST38h | either case | 12:13 |
| philn-tp | zaheerm-lp: hahaha :) | 12:13 |
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| zaheerm-lp | philn-tp, you using fremantle, diablo or other target in sbox? | 12:13 |
| zaheerm-lp | philn-tp, x86 or armel emu in sbox? | 12:14 |
| philn-tp | zaheerm-lp: fremantle, i think | 12:14 |
| philn-tp | x86 | 12:14 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: nope, i do not create anything really new, just gluing things together like Lynoure says. But i do not think it's important either, to me it's more important to help people, read books, listen to the music etc. Not everyone was born to be a great scientist or an inventor and that's ok. | 12:15 |
| Tigge | >/win 2 | 12:15 |
| * Lynoure is currently working on something a lot of people will use. Not new, and plenty of glue. And soon something more new that a tiny group of people will use. | 12:16 | |
| Tigge | doh | 12:16 |
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| * javispedro is not working on creating anything | 12:16 | |
| zaheerm-lp | philn-tp, try stracing i think... | 12:16 |
| javispedro | :) | 12:16 |
| philn-tp | zaheerm-lp: the PA port mentionned there seems wrong http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_examples/ .. or my PA is not correctly listening on tcp | 12:16 |
| RST38h | Paul: Among people working on something like an RRJ or a new Medfield chip or an N900, there is just a few of great inventors | 12:17 |
| Lynoure | (non-surprisingly the latter is for Maemo5 :) ) | 12:17 |
| RST38h | Paul: Yet, they can all point to something in the real world and say "I have helped to build that" | 12:17 |
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| Lynoure | I can just point at software and say that... nothing in real world. | 12:18 |
| RST38h | Paul: Returning to the initial topic, there are very few companies in Russia whose employees can say something like that | 12:18 |
| zaheerm-lp | philn-tp, so yah in sbox i have same problem | 12:18 |
| RST38h | Paul: And most of them are offices of foreign corporations, i.e. "evil" | 12:18 |
| zaheerm-lp | philn-tp, i have none running inside my sbox, so autoaudiosink will use alsasink which will use the host's pulse's alsa emulation :) | 12:19 |
| RST38h | Paul: And yes, THAT is one of the causes of the brain drain, in addition to lower salaries and generally lower living standards when compared to the West | 12:19 |
| philn-tp | zaheerm-lp: yes but i need to use pulsesink :/ | 12:19 |
| * javispedro wonders if I just traveled to the nineties | 12:20 | |
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| zaheerm-lp | philn-tp, you need to? | 12:20 |
| philn-tp | zaheerm-lp: yes... to debug something | 12:20 |
| javispedro | oh, the N900 has an AMOLED screen! </tmo> | 12:21 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: if i make a patch that hits mainline and 10k of FR owners use it, that'll be good. I can show it to somebody and boast. But even if i helped a single person with enjoying his device more, that's already an achivement. I think being a good human is more important than being involved in developing something widely deployed. | 12:21 |
| RST38h | Paul: Maybe. But what is the probability of you seeing another guy with a Freerunner on the subway, let us say? | 12:22 |
| alterego | I'm more interested in making the device do what I want it to do, if people find that useful, then great. | 12:22 |
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| alterego | If someone comes up with an idea, something they want it to do and are not capable of doing it, then that's a good place to start too. | 12:22 |
| epa_ | anyone here syncing N900 with calendar on their Linux machine? | 12:22 |
| epa_ | with any application conbination whatsoever | 12:23 |
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| javispedro | does it sync with anything other than windows pc suite? | 12:23 |
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| alterego | Does the Mail for Exchange stuff not sync? :) | 12:23 |
| andre__ | there are some bugs. | 12:24 |
| tigert | javispedro: google has Exchange service | 12:24 |
| tigert | it worked fine for google calendar for me | 12:24 |
| andre__ | alterego, depends with what you want to sync. | 12:24 |
| tigert | what sucks is that it can contain just one sync account at a time it appears | 12:25 |
| javispedro | I guess the sync stuff is mostly open, with the calendar backend being e-d-s? | 12:25 |
| tigert | thus I cannot use it for google and work stuff at the same time | 12:25 |
| lbt_ | epa_: keep me in the loop | 12:25 |
| alterego | N900<->Exchange<->Evolution ^.^ | 12:25 |
| lbt_ | tried syncvolution | 12:25 |
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| javispedro | alterego: sounds awful and datalossy :P | 12:25 |
| lbt_ | and obex | 12:25 |
| alterego | :) | 12:26 |
| lbt_ | and gnokii | 12:26 |
| alterego | I'd personally, probably just rsync the database. | 12:26 |
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| javispedro | bah. I'd like to write an evo sync plugin | 12:26 |
| lbt_ | javispedro: *nod* | 12:26 |
| javispedro | naaative | 12:26 |
| javispedro | noithing that goes through exchange. | 12:26 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: (probability) it depends. And it doesn't matter actually, imho. | 12:26 |
| lbt_ | can we work this into Hermes? | 12:27 |
| philn-tp | zaheerm-lp: maybe my host PA is not compatible with sbox pulsesink :/ | 12:27 |
| CoreFusion- | omg... someone asked at t.m.o if n900 will support silverlight... | 12:27 |
| javispedro | hermes? hermes is contacts. | 12:27 |
| RST38h | Paul: But then, you have no idea if people actually use what you have created | 12:27 |
| epa_ | I can't use outlook with N900 because device does not have encrypted storage for certificates. | 12:27 |
| viq | Speaking of syncing, there is free edition of zimbra that claims mobile device sync, I wonder if that would work for nokia | 12:27 |
| RST38h | Paul: So, having more people use your stuff, and having more different people use it, actually helps feeling the feedback | 12:27 |
| javispedro | I guess it's just a matter of writing a sync daemon on n900 using C++ calendar api, | 12:28 |
| Stskeeps | epa_: and passphrase on private key isn't good enough? | 12:28 |
| javispedro | then a opensync plugin | 12:28 |
| epa_ | So I'd have to sync calendar from my linux phone. | 12:28 |
| javispedro | et voilà! | 12:28 |
| epa_ | Stskeeps: not for our policy on mobile devices. | 12:28 |
| Stskeeps | lovely | 12:28 |
| Stskeeps | have to wait for m6 then | 12:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | CoreFusion-, actually, Microsoft announced something along those lines at some point. | 12:29 |
| epa_ | Stskeeps: or m7 m8 .... *sigh* | 12:29 |
| ccooke | Good Morning | 12:29 |
| viq | Oh, yeah, speaking of - I wonder if it will be possible to get full disk encryption on n900 | 12:30 |
| viq | dm-crypt or the like | 12:30 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: lots of people gave feedback about poor GPS performance to Nokia. Not that it changed anything. No engineer that actually designed the gps part was involved. No software author was involved. Nobody cared. Read the ticket, it's really that awful. Nokia employees claiming "we checked our code, it's bug free; if you have any questions ask nokia customer care" and proposing to use agps instead. | 12:30 |
| PaulFertser | (talking about n810 here) | 12:30 |
| Stskeeps | that said, n810 with agps isn't half bad. | 12:31 |
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| RST38h | Paul: That is mainly because the TI5300 chip is AGPS, not GPS and it does not work well without the A- | 12:31 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: sure, provided you have the internet access there | 12:31 |
| javispedro | considering that the n900 without agps sucks too, I'd even say it's a hw bug. | 12:31 |
| RST38h | Paul: Please note that these evil Nokia employees eventually provided a solution inDiablo | 12:31 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i'm not sure that's true, it should work without A as well. | 12:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Christ, another one, really? | 12:31 |
| CoreFusion- | GeneralAntilles: That is very interesting | 12:31 |
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| PaulFertser | RST38h: a solution == beta AGPS binary daemon? | 12:31 |
| RST38h | Paul: Which you can install from Extras and GPS starts working way better | 12:32 |
| RST38h | Yes. | 12:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, was checking if anybody else had the volume rocker working with qwerty12's FBReader. | 12:32 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, but he provided a libzlib later that made it work. | 12:32 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: provided you have the internet access at the moment you need the fix. Not exactly common when you're hiking e.g. | 12:32 |
| RST38h | Paul: Why do you think it should work well without the A-? | 12:32 |
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| ccooke | GeneralAntilles: ... a libzlib that makes the volume rocker work?! | 12:32 |
| lardman | re | 12:32 |
| RST38h | Paul: That is why it is A- | 12:32 |
| RST38h | Paul: But an extra BT GPS receiver will only cost you $50-$60 | 12:33 |
| Flandry | uh, because it's a computer | 12:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://qwerty12.qole.org/libzlibrary_0.10.7-1_armel.deb http://qwerty12.qole.org/fbreader_0.10.7-1_armel.deb | 12:33 |
| RST38h | I have got one, just in case, even before I got N810 | 12:33 |
| javispedro | RST38h: no, external BT GPS is closed! | 12:33 |
| viq | RST38h: and lots of battery life | 12:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Egads, Engadget turned the whole first page into a header. | 12:33 |
| RST38h | javis: you can't even imagine... | 12:33 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i feel false reasoning here. A means it can get ephemeris (and almanac) from the SoC, just that. It doesn't mean it should have poor sensitivity or something. | 12:33 |
| RST38h | viq: ~12 hours non stop | 12:34 |
| lardman | javispedro: on Fremantle? | 12:34 |
| Flandry | no respectable computer needs to call home to do arithmetic :P | 12:34 |
| ccooke | GeneralAntilles: wonderful. My ebook reader's screen died last night, so I had to install fbreader on the n900 this morning :-) | 12:34 |
| RST38h | javis: no power button, no reset, batteries can't be removed | 12:34 |
| javispedro | lardman: talking about the actual receiver ;) | 12:34 |
| lardman | ah ok | 12:34 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: no - there are many AGPSs that work just fine when they have no net connection. | 12:34 |
| RST38h | Paul: False reasoning is saying that it "should" work wqithout A- and not backing this up | 12:34 |
| fubs | hola, anyone has ever tried to make puredata anywhere running on the n900? having probs with pulseaudio :( | 12:34 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: it's not impossible that the GPS device isn't being used optimally. | 12:34 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil++ | 12:35 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: In that most AGPSs - and all GPS chipsets with AGPS that I've ever seen - can do fixes on their own. | 12:35 |
| SpeedEvil | all hardware GPS chipsets | 12:35 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: but nokia employees claim their code is literally "bug free". Can that be considered honest? | 12:35 |
| SpeedEvil | They just take longer. | 12:35 |
| javispedro | and that's the issue here. | 12:35 |
| javispedro | that without AGPS the damn thing takes minutes to get a fix. | 12:35 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: the code probably comes from Ti for the chipset | 12:35 |
| viq | They can do fix without assist, it just takes couple minutes to half an hour. But if you do try to get a fix not long after not too far from there it's very fast if the data is saved | 12:36 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: so nokia guys can't claim it's bugfree. | 12:36 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: yet they do | 12:36 |
| lardman | true, who did? | 12:36 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: let me find the evidence, moment. | 12:36 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: however - the reported fact that there is no daemon for a software GPS, and the device outputs NMEA would indicate that it's not really a driver issue, more a usage issue. | 12:36 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: many AGPSs if you screw up the AGPS data won't actually lock. | 12:37 |
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| * SpeedEvil checks again for shipping notification. | 12:38 | |
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| SpeedEvil | :/ | 12:38 |
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| javispedro | I think it's going to ship real soon now. | 12:39 |
| zaheerm-lp | philn-tp, you can always try git gst...but i very much doubt that | 12:39 |
| javispedro | (TM) | 12:39 |
| RST38h | Paul: All Nokia employees claim is that they have done all they could | 12:39 |
| philn-tp | zaheerm-lp: i can't do that either :( | 12:39 |
| RST38h | Paul: Yes, ti5300 *can* get a lock in non-assisted mode. It takes 3-10 minutes. | 12:40 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: - The Location team has gone through these issues and doesn't think that | 12:40 |
| PaulFertser | long timings are caused by bugs in gpsd or the closed components | 12:40 |
| PaulFertser | developed by Nokia. | 12:40 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2878#c57 | 12:40 |
| povbot | Bug 2878: Very poor satellite acquisition with internal GPS | 12:40 |
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| Flandry | oh yeah | 12:41 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: is it a documented behaviour? | 12:41 |
| Flandry | reading that made me want to bang my head on the wall | 12:41 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: so if you read the ticket in question you'll see that several _very_ experienced guys asked nokia about details to verify that software bugs do not contribute to it. Nokia ignored the specific questions and proposed agps as well. | 12:42 |
| RST38h | In assisted mode, it takes 40 seconds to 2 minutes | 12:42 |
| RST38h | Paul: Sorry but how do you know poor acquisition time is caused by gpsd bugs? | 12:42 |
| PaulFertser | Flandry: yeah, i had a similar senstation after reading all the posts there. It was highly disappointing. | 12:42 |
| javispedro | well, Nokia doesn't employ idiots of that's what you think. I can believe they reviewed the code. | 12:42 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: how do you know it's not? | 12:42 |
| javispedro | s/of/if | 12:42 |
| RST38h | Paul: I do not know either way | 12:42 |
| PaulFertser | javispedro: i can't believe they claimed it's bug free. | 12:42 |
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| RST38h | But I have not made any statements about it | 12:42 |
| RST38h | You did. So how do you know? | 12:43 |
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| javispedro | PaulFertser: they claimed they reviewed the code and didn't find issues. I think that's a pretty sane thing to say. | 12:43 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: i'm not making statements that their code is buggy. I just say that they were asked to provide details and refused claiming there's no bugs in there. | 12:43 |
| PaulFertser | javispedro: not when you're asked a specific question like the one posed on the tracker. In fact this particular ticket says a lot about how well nokia "cares" about the customer. | 12:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Similar long-lock issues without AGPS have been caused on other GPSs by getting the assist data stored slightly wrong. | 12:44 |
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| javispedro | the assist data is stored fine. the gps gets a lock quickly if you shut it down then power it on after a 5 minute wait | 12:44 |
| RST38h | Paul: They refused because the code is closed | 12:44 |
| SpeedEvil | s/similar// | 12:44 |
| javispedro | the issue is when you try to get a lock when more than three or so days have passed since latest lock | 12:45 |
| RST38h | Paul: Revealing this code would lead to violation of their NDA and their eventual dismissal | 12:45 |
| javispedro | PaulFertser: so. a bug report is opened about poor performance. Nokia reviews the gpsdriver code and says they do not thing it is a bug there, and believe it's a hw issue. You complain Nokia doesn't care about customers. | 12:46 |
| RST38h | You really want some poor Nokia sod dismissed just so that you could see gpsd sources? | 12:46 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: they could reveal the details about how that code works. They could have added debug printfs. They could do a lot without violating NDA. But they ignored the numerous requests to add some debugging. How can you justify that? | 12:46 |
| RST38h | And they have actually done some of that | 12:46 |
| PaulFertser | javispedro: exactly. Why didn't they add some debugging info so everyone can see that's really a HW issue? | 12:46 |
| RST38h | But they do not HAVE to do it. | 12:46 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: that's what an honest dev supposed to do. | 12:47 |
| RST38h | This is not their job to reveal details to you. They have signed their NDAs. | 12:47 |
| RST38h | Paul: Not really. Honest developer is supposed ot do his job well | 12:47 |
| RST38h | Their job is software development not customer relations | 12:47 |
| javispedro | PaulFertser: probably because TI wants to hide how much work is done on software and a useful debug dump would reveal that. | 12:48 |
| RST38h | Now, if you would like ot claim they made some mistakes in their code, you can | 12:48 |
| PaulFertser | javispedro: in fact they never confirmed that's a hardware issue! | 12:48 |
| RST38h | But you cannot require them to disclose stuff to you | 12:48 |
| RST38h | javis: More likely, they would like to hide their processing algorithms | 12:48 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: how can one diagnose the problem without any debugging information? It's just impossible. And in the end they neither confirmed nor denied that's a hardware issue. | 12:49 |
| RST38h | javis: Do not want to create advantage for someone else | 12:49 |
| RST38h | Paul: Have you been asked to diagnose this problem? | 12:49 |
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| lardman | sorry, phone call | 12:50 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: they said they can't reproduce the problem. So reviewing the code might be not enough. You know that plenty of bugs pass the review and only after being exposed to some particular conditions, the bug surfaces. | 12:50 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: they never said they reproduced the issue. | 12:50 |
| PaulFertser | So i claim that without reproducing their review worth nothing. | 12:50 |
| PaulFertser | I think that's a reasonable thing to claim. | 12:50 |
| javispedro | PaulFertser: "The Location team has gone through these issues..." | 12:51 |
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| lardman | PaulFertser: ok, so I was part of that bug, and that doesn't rule out the possibility that Ti provided a binary blob or perhaps source to perform the calcs | 12:51 |
| lardman | anyway, is nitpicking, the performance is crap | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | the most likely issue i've seen is that timezones weren't set up right | 12:52 |
| PaulFertser | javispedro: i guess Quim Gil could have used "has gone" meaning they evaluated, not reproduced. | 12:52 |
| SpeedEvil | As to IP - and blobs - someone reported that GPS does not have a daemon when active that uses several percent of CPU | 12:52 |
| CoreFusion- | what performance are you guys taling about, gps+ | 12:52 |
| Stskeeps | which meant the time on device was not right and hence gpsdriver got confused | 12:52 |
| SpeedEvil | Which would imply there is no significant binary blob on the host side. | 12:52 |
| RST38h | Core: N810 GPS | 12:53 |
| SpeedEvil | Argh | 12:53 |
| lardman | hmm, I think we concluded that it probably does though from a disassembly of the code | 12:53 |
| SpeedEvil | please ignore most of what I've said - I thought it was n900 gps | 12:53 |
| RST38h | Core: PaulFertser is claiming that evil Nokia is hiding gpsd bugs from us | 12:53 |
| CoreFusion- | RST38h: Oh, well that surely is poor | 12:53 |
| SpeedEvil | (that was being discussed) | 12:53 |
| RST38h | By not making the code open source | 12:53 |
| lardman | RST38h: not gpsd, gpsdriver | 12:53 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: nobody from nokia admitted that anyway. If it was the case, and nokia honestly told the customers that they have no idea what to do with TI's binary blob, i'd say: good, i see nokia is honest with their customers. | 12:53 |
| RST38h | gpsdriver, ok | 12:53 |
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| lardman | PaulFertser: well the other explanation is that the aerial is poorly positioned | 12:54 |
| javispedro | i do not think TI gave them a binary blob, but rather source code. | 12:54 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: what i care here is honesty, not performance... | 12:54 |
| lardman | I don;t know, we should just reverse engineer gpsdriver and then we can look at the raw data | 12:54 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: Though not a very similar case, openmoko got handed a binary blob and no source. (but they were only oedering several thousand) | 12:55 |
| PaulFertser | I claim that nokia is dishonest and the way this bug was dealt with confirms that. | 12:55 |
| Stskeeps | heh, dishonesty exists in oss too | 12:55 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: if you're talking about calypso, that's partially wrong. | 12:55 |
| lardman | life's not black and white | 12:55 |
| SpeedEvil | PaulFertser: no - gta01 - hammerhead - gllin | 12:55 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: OM has part of calypso source and a way to compile it along with blobs. | 12:55 |
| CoreFusion- | PaulFertser: You really expect complete openness from a company that big? | 12:55 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: ah, ok. | 12:55 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil: the are certain references in the changelog that they were able to tune certain parameters. I don't know if that means fully source drop but... | 12:55 |
| javispedro | s/the are/there are | 12:55 |
| PaulFertser | CoreFusion-: not complete openness. But just being honest on bugtracker. | 12:56 |
| lardman | javispedro: yeah accuracy/speed trade-offs iirc | 12:56 |
| lardman | and 2D vs 3D stuff | 12:56 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: big step up they even have one though | 12:56 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: and lock times vs initial lock accuracy | 12:56 |
| lardman | yep | 12:56 |
| lardman | SpeedEvil: I'm guessing you were right originally and the decoding is done on the arm | 12:57 |
| javispedro | at least on N810. | 12:57 |
| lardman | yeah | 12:57 |
| lardman | I've not looked on the N900 | 12:57 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: having a bugtracker is a big step? Sounds a bit like a joke. ;) | 12:57 |
| lardman | bbiab | 12:57 |
| javispedro | we found Pi as single precision fp constants, etc. | 12:57 |
| javispedro | all stored on the gpsdriver binary | 12:57 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: Unless I don't get a n900, I'm unlikely to get a 810 | 12:58 |
| SpeedEvil | (and only then if I can find one cheap) | 12:58 |
| CoreFusion- | I can sell you one :P | 12:58 |
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| Stskeeps | javispedro: got some specifics on problematic stuff you've found? | 12:58 |
| SayHi | say hi | 12:58 |
| SpeedEvil | CoreFusion-: I want to see if I get rejected for a n900. (voucher stacked - so paid ~50%) | 12:59 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps: what you mean? | 12:59 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: well, non-fixed stuff in gpsdriver | 12:59 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps: i'm not the one complaining :) | 12:59 |
| alterego | Did anyone else get the impression that they're going to do a discount programme for the next maemo device? | 12:59 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: and that's why i'm asking you about constructive information :) | 12:59 |
| javispedro | even though my gripe with it is long cold fix times | 12:59 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: the most convincing thing to me is the percentage of CPU is more or less identical to that used on the GTA01 openmoko - which had a (largely) software GPS. | 13:00 |
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| alterego | Is the source available for the auto-builder? | 13:03 |
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| javispedro | the auto-builder is basically sbox + sdk + sbdmock | 13:08 |
| javispedro | afaik. | 13:08 |
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| alterego | Has no one ported gtkglext? | 13:10 |
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| wazd | jeez! Is there any option to bring back old Engadget style? | 13:14 |
| pyhimys | wazd: use lynx | 13:15 |
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| wazd | it's so godawful | 13:16 |
| wazd | engadget, not lynx :D | 13:16 |
| RST38h | wazd: Google reader saves the day | 13:18 |
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| fubs | god damn it... dac blocked | 13:23 |
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| vesa | can i uninstall stuff with dpkg using wildcards? | 13:26 |
| vesa | ie. something like dpkg -r blaa* | 13:26 |
| adeus | yes | 13:26 |
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| adeus | of more exactly the shell will expand that * | 13:27 |
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| adeus | dpkg will see a list of the items | 13:27 |
| lardman | SpeedEvil: ok | 13:28 |
| vesa | hmm, it just says 'dkpg: you must specify packages by their own names, not by quoting the names of the files they come in' | 13:28 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: re GPS sw, it's more wondering if they did as good as job as possible on it | 13:28 |
| vesa | hmm, changed dir to where there are no debs with that start (filenames) and now it says 'warning: ignoring request to remove blaa* which isn't installed. | 13:29 |
| adeus | ahh | 13:29 |
| lardman | and that does also lead onto opening the code up so we could feed it our own ephemerides | 13:29 |
| adeus | uninstall.. | 13:29 |
| adeus | doh I just read isntall | 13:29 |
| vesa | even tho listing blaa* gives a long list | 13:29 |
| vesa | ah oh =) | 13:29 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: luke-jr keeps on suggesting abstracting away the TI code | 13:30 |
| adeus | it should still work | 13:30 |
| adeus | you need to quote it | 13:30 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: well re-writing yeah would open it, but probably a bit of an involved job - what does SpeedEvil think, it's his field? | 13:30 |
| adeus | dpkg -r ä | 13:30 |
| adeus | argh | 13:31 |
| adeus | dpkg -r '*foo*' | 13:31 |
| vesa | nope, doesn't work =/ | 13:31 |
| pyhimys | dpkg -r `dpkg -l | grep foo` | 13:32 |
| adeus | ..and some cutting to that ; | 13:33 |
| adeus | ) | 13:33 |
| adeus | goddamn my keyboard lags | 13:33 |
| vesa | pyhimys: thank you kind sir. that did it =) | 13:34 |
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| alterego | Crap, I left my ext HDD with all my maemo stuff at home so I can't upload these new packages to extras-devel :( | 13:40 |
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| bobbyd | well | 13:50 |
| bobbyd | the rollout of the n900 is a little bit of a farce now :) | 13:50 |
| bobbyd | what with the london flagship store tweeting that it was selling them today, then deleting it... | 13:51 |
| CoreFusion- | ... | 13:51 |
| bobbyd | I mean, the delays were annoying, but why would you announce you were selling something unless you had it in store. I suspect something else is going on | 13:52 |
| bobbyd | but I can't work out what that might me | 13:52 |
| bobbyd | be | 13:52 |
| lardman | GAN900: you about? | 13:52 |
| CoreFusion- | "delays" | 13:52 |
| alterego | Think I might setup some kind of local repository in my scratchbox installation for all this junk. | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | bobbyd: yes, plenty of discussions about that on talk.maemo.org | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:52 |
| bobbyd | anyway, I got squeezeplay to work un der the | 13:53 |
| bobbyd | sdk | 13:53 |
| bobbyd | but I think the license means you can't distribute it | 13:53 |
| bobbyd | so I suppose the only option would be to downlod the source and compile on each n900 | 13:54 |
| alterego | Heh | 13:54 |
| viq | Or make "highly unofficial" repo ;) | 13:54 |
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| kik2k0 | Is it possible to swith between 3G and WLAN without loosing your connection? | 13:56 |
| alterego | kik2k0: no, not realy. | 13:56 |
| viq | kik2k0: define "connection" | 13:56 |
| alterego | I was contemplating some kind of screeen for network connections. | 13:56 |
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| kik2k0 | viq: like a SSH-session | 13:56 |
| viq | then no | 13:56 |
| kik2k0 | alterego: ok | 13:56 |
| kik2k0 | ok, thanks | 13:57 |
| alterego | I was thinking of implementing a local proxy, that uses autossh to proxy connections to a remote host and maintain state. | 13:57 |
| CoreFusion- | in theory if were to use a loopback address and switch the network connection extremly fast | 13:57 |
| viq | kik2k0: if you want more technical details - your IP would change, so TCP connection would break. | 13:57 |
| alterego | So you can move between internet connections and always maintain your open sockets. | 13:57 |
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| kik2k0 | viq: yeah, didnt think about that | 13:58 |
| alterego | If it's not been built, I think I'll do that, kind of like screen but for network connections. | 13:59 |
| viq | alterego: if you used something like openvpn, maybe that could work | 13:59 |
| kik2k0 | would be really nice if it could move between 3G and WLAN like that | 13:59 |
| alterego | Yeah, didn't think about VPN | 14:00 |
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| viq | And openvpn has the advantage of not encapsulating tcp in tcp | 14:00 |
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| alterego | I think I might still develop my SSH SOCKS5 implementation, | 14:01 |
| alterego | Couple of ruby scripts. no problem :) | 14:02 |
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| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Ah, rioght | 14:03 |
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| SpeedEvil | lardman: rewriting from scratch given full specs is a not-too-horrible job. | 14:05 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: reverse engineering those specs is going to be nasty. | 14:05 |
| lardman | SpeedEvil: it looked like most of the code was contained in a few functions, which is far nicer than other things I've looked at | 14:06 |
| lardman | make it easier to work out how it works anyway | 14:07 |
| lardman | but tbh I have better things to do with my time atm | 14:07 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: yeah - the hard parts aren't really the position determination bit. | 14:07 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: Or even the orbital calcs. | 14:07 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: those are all nicely documented and stuff, and not too bad to implement. | 14:07 |
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| lardman | well I guess the input and output shouldn't be too bad though | 14:08 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: the nasty part is working out how the radio hardware is driven, what the parameters for it are, and what format the signals come back in | 14:08 |
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| lardman | yeah | 14:08 |
| lardman | easy enough to find where, just not what | 14:08 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: the recieving part is where the complexity arises - it can be really quite complex to setup the reciever to pick up each satellite. | 14:09 |
| SpeedEvil | Especially if you want good lock performance. | 14:09 |
| lardman | ok | 14:10 |
| SpeedEvil | To make an analogy - FM radio is more-or-less a keyboard just entering values. You open it, turn it to the right frequency, and you get data. GPS signal acquisition is more like image processing, picking faeces out of a crowd. | 14:11 |
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| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: you were asking about articles... | 14:29 |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.webwizardry.net/~timeless/164.html (it doesn't belong on that server, but viper isn't serving atm) | 14:29 |
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| mzz | timeless_mbp: cute | 14:32 |
| timeless_mbp | mzz: thanks | 14:32 |
| timeless_mbp | it needs art | 14:32 |
| timeless_mbp | the article is old (see comment at top of file for original content) | 14:32 |
| mzz | speaking of art, I have a .ico file to decipher | 14:32 |
| timeless_mbp | you do indeed! | 14:32 |
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| timeless_mbp | oom-killer image: http://image.gihyo.co.jp/assets/images/dev/serial/01/sc-literacy/0016/01.jpg | 14:39 |
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| timeless_mbp | mzz: hey, got a picture of the doom for process killing? | 14:46 |
| * timeless_mbp thinks it's resourcefork.com -- psDoom | 14:46 | |
| timeless_mbp | http://www.emezeta.com/weblog/psdoom.png | 14:47 |
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| timeless_mbp | ok. art added | 14:50 |
| timeless_mbp | i just need to find out when viper will come back up | 14:50 |
| timeless_mbp | i still have some monkeys which need art iirc | 14:50 |
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| mzz | timeless_mbp: your .ico bug is https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=581838 which is really a two-parter: the ico loader should not throw away the entire ico if it chokes on one of the images in it, and it should actually support png images. | 14:57 |
| povbot | Bug 581838: was not found. | 14:57 |
| mzz | I'll see if I can cook up a patch | 14:57 |
| timeless_mbp | feel free to attach our icon | 14:57 |
| timeless_mbp | it's hardly private with a couple hundred people having copies :) | 14:58 |
| timeless_mbp | and thanks | 14:58 |
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| mzz | no prob, I don't mind this kind of prodding, although I don't know if the gdk-pixbuf patch will be fun | 14:59 |
| mzz | I actually have pure python ico and png file format parsers around for no particularly good reason | 14:59 |
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| timeless_mbp | lol | 15:04 |
| iDialekt | N900 going to get Global portrait or is that for maemo 6? | 15:04 |
| timeless_mbp | iDialekt: 'global' doesn't make sense for any project | 15:05 |
| timeless_mbp | each app needs to be designed or augmented to support portrait | 15:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | the browser should get portrait in the first service release | 15:06 |
| RST38h | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/19/paralysis_ray_blue_victime/ | 15:06 |
| iDialekt | Oh | 15:06 |
| timeless_mbp | and it's likely that a number of other major apps will get portrait mode | 15:06 |
| RST38h | "Many [of the test subjects] lived through the paralyze-unparalyze cycle", report the boffins. | 15:06 |
| timeless_mbp | however, even though it'd be nice to have a portrait calculator, i wouldn't expect to see it | 15:06 |
| auenf | wouldnt be surprised that maemo 5 doesnt get portrait support for the desktop(s) | 15:06 |
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| iDialekt | What about certain points of the os itself? | 15:06 |
| timeless_mbp | the os? | 15:06 |
| timeless_mbp | you mean X11? | 15:06 |
| timeless_mbp | or dbus? | 15:06 |
| timeless_mbp | or gconf? | 15:06 |
| timeless_mbp | or ... ? | 15:06 |
| iDialekt | :( | 15:06 |
| timeless_mbp | what's an OS? | 15:06 |
| iDialekt | Sorry | 15:07 |
| * iDialekt gets shut down | 15:07 | |
| timeless_mbp | i haven't heard of plans to make the switcher rotate | 15:07 |
| timeless_mbp | it's probably doable, and i could be out of the loop | 15:07 |
| iDialekt | switcher? | 15:07 |
| timeless_mbp | aSIMULAter would probably know but probably couldn't speak to it unless it was already public knowledge somewhere | 15:07 |
| timeless_mbp | aSIMULAter: speaking of which, visit sp3000 and ask his roommate to trade your device for an English one | 15:08 |
| iDialekt | Who's grabbing an n900 anyway! | 15:08 |
| timeless_mbp | switcher is probably officially "Dashboard" | 15:08 |
| iDialekt | Anyone got one? In the USA? | 15:08 |
| timeless_mbp | (like that helps any) | 15:08 |
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| RST38h | iDialekt: nobody has an N900 here. nothing to see. | 15:09 |
| RST38h | be on your way now. | 15:09 |
| iDialekt | RST38h: hush | 15:10 |
| iDialekt | auenf: How are you by the way? | 15:10 |
| auenf | not bad, you? | 15:10 |
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| RST38h | http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/10754_Move_over_heavy_handed_Apple-w.php | 15:11 |
| mzz | grr, stupid ancient nonextendable file formats that get extended anyway | 15:11 |
| RST38h | Steve Litchfield meets Nokia Ovi | 15:11 |
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| iDialekt | Pretty good. Seeing as im trying to return to nokia in some shape | 15:11 |
| RST38h | Does not like it, says the store has too many applications | 15:12 |
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| Shapeshifter | I don't agree with the author of that article. | 15:16 |
| Shapeshifter | choice is good. If you can't decide that's your problem >.> | 15:16 |
| auenf | he wants a psion | 15:16 |
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| RST38h | Of course he does | 15:17 |
| Shapeshifter | who does | 15:17 |
| RST38h | Shapeshifter: The problem is not with the choice, it is with the appstore model | 15:17 |
| RST38h | Shapeshifter: if you concentrate so much stuff at one spot, it naturally becomes difficult to present to customers and even to search | 15:18 |
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| Shapeshifter | RST38h: possibly. But he suggests radical QA to prevent most app of being released | 15:18 |
| RST38h | If you just let people write their own stuff and sell it in .sis or .deb form through their web sites, then it is all well spread with google taking care of indexing | 15:18 |
| timeless_mbp | mzz: blah | 15:19 |
| timeless_mbp | ico was a container format | 15:19 |
| RST38h | Shapeshifter: Which means that he is either trying to look iconoclastic to his reader or he is naturally stupid | 15:19 |
| timeless_mbp | always has been | 15:19 |
| timeless_mbp | surely it isn't hard to deal w/ | 15:19 |
| auenf | ok, i'll create a .sis or .deb that formats all your drives and advertise it as flash support for the iphone | 15:19 |
| CShadowRun | What's the deal with maemo and python? I heard that some of it is in python? | 15:20 |
| RST38h | auenf: It is ok. A necessary risk. | 15:20 |
| auenf | not for the general user | 15:20 |
| Shapeshifter | auenf: "the internet" would quickly find out that your app is BS and people wouldn't install it anymore | 15:20 |
| RST38h | And I will not install your .sis file until I read about it and get it from a trusted source (of which can be many) | 15:20 |
| Shapeshifter | it would be all over facebook, your favourite forums and whatever | 15:20 |
| RST38h | Exactly | 15:21 |
| mzz | timeless_mbp: not that bad. The icky bit is that the contained thing doesn't have any magic bytes, so you have to rely on sanity checks (against the header from the container format) to detect unhandled contained icons (which is probably why gdk-pixbuf is failing: you can't really tell if it's a corrupt ico or an unhandled one) | 15:21 |
| RST38h | auenf: And you will end up up to your eyes in fecal matter | 15:21 |
| RST38h | Nothing personal, just the way Internet works | 15:21 |
| timeless_mbp | CShadowRun: you can write maemo apps in python | 15:21 |
| CShadowRun | nice | 15:21 |
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| Shapeshifter | auenf: it's been like that for desktop apps for ages. | 15:22 |
| auenf | thats an extreme example, but if you let people host apps anywhere, there is not quality control, a single app could seriously affect the whole device | 15:22 |
| RST38h | So? | 15:23 |
| timeless_mbp | auenf: as long as i can call 911 :) | 15:23 |
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| Shapeshifter | RST38h: though I am _clearly_ against a page-by-page single-distribution system. It's the main reason I hate windows - it lacks any kind of package management, and it's what I love about linux (well, most distros). Package management is important, automatic global updates, not per-app notifiers etc. | 15:23 |
| * auenf creates an app that disables 911 on timeless's phone | 15:23 | |
| auenf | also will disable 112 :P | 15:23 |
| Shapeshifter | A repo systems has some drawbacks but it far outweights single-package installation systems imho. | 15:24 |
| auenf | restricting only to app stores is one extreme | 15:25 |
| auenf | s/only to app stores/only to one app store/ | 15:25 |
| infobot | auenf meant: restricting only to one app store is one extreme | 15:25 |
| auenf | letting installs from anywhere is the other extreme | 15:26 |
| auenf | for a mobile device, more towards the former is better for the general public | 15:26 |
| Shapeshifter | it's okay I think. But there could be for example a community-QA. With a couple of hundret "Trusted users" - like in maemos case for example some of the more popular devs, and additionaly a rating system where a package gets blocked once it receives 5 1-star ratings | 15:27 |
| auenf | more towards the latter is desired by the 'geeks' | 15:27 |
| Shapeshifter | the community, "the internet", knows best which apps are good and which are bad. | 15:27 |
| Shapeshifter | QA employees could never cope with the amount of apps that could be developed. | 15:27 |
| auenf | need more QA employees then | 15:28 |
| Shapeshifter | no, impossible, too expensive | 15:28 |
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| auenf | iirc, everyone in "the community" can be QA for extras | 15:28 |
| auenf | the current QAers are limited cause of limited number of devices out in the wild | 15:29 |
| * RST38h always facepalms at people who honestly think they can somehow "QA" every single app on the planet, not to mention collect them all behind a simple 320x240 pixel interface | 15:30 | |
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| RST38h | Possibilities for disaster boggle the mind... Starting with the current Fremantle Extras for example | 15:30 |
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| auenf | hmm, fark its still hot here | 15:33 |
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| konttori | Nice, t3 review is out: http://www.t3.com/reviews/phones/mobile-phones/nokia-n900-review "The N900 eschews Symbian for the open-source Maemo 5 OS and despite a few gripes; it’s the best handset Nokia has produced in a long time." | 15:52 |
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| CoreFusion- | it that on the sales-device? | 15:53 |
| konttori | I would assume so. It's either with the same firmware as the 300 dev devices had, or with the latest | 15:54 |
| CoreFusion- | I like how it starts :D | 15:54 |
| CoreFusion- | " | 15:54 |
| konttori | there are not so many big differences between those two versions | 15:54 |
| CoreFusion- | The Finns leap back into our affections | 15:54 |
| viq | "Although after 24-hours of moderate calling and texting, WiFi continually on, some browsing and photography, we needed to recharge. Cane the web and you’ll need to carry a charger around with you." | 15:55 |
| Lynoure | CoreFusion-: :) | 15:55 |
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| Lynoure | viq: try same with mobile data, and the time is whole lot shorter. | 15:56 |
| viq | Lynoure: yeah, just quoting that article | 15:56 |
| Lynoure | viq: yup, understood that, just wanted to share my experiences :) | 15:57 |
| RST38h | konttori: Compared to quite a few S60 phones, N900 is rock stable even in its current state | 15:57 |
| viq | ;) | 15:57 |
| viq | Lynoure: how much battery life do you see on cel network? Or you don't see any yet? ;) | 15:57 |
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| Lynoure | I still need to try if it drops my bt headset after 15min even with the newest fw | 15:58 |
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| Lynoure | viq: I try not to keep that on much, because it drains fast. So, never timed it. | 15:58 |
| * viq nods | 15:59 | |
| Lynoure | I end up charging mine pretty much nightly. | 15:59 |
| viq | Nightly is still nice ;) | 15:59 |
| Lynoure | Too fond of walking xmpping =) | 15:59 |
| viq | hehe | 15:59 |
| SpeedEvil | http://shop.nokia.co.uk/nokia-uk/product.aspx?sku=10208380&cp=shophome&product=n900_bestsellers Estimated delivery date: week commencing 23rd November. | 15:59 |
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| CoreFusion- | This could be because we had an early sample | 16:00 |
| CoreFusion- | so not the final unit | 16:00 |
| Stskeeps | w00t_: ^ | 16:01 |
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| andre__ | I'm looking for a libSDL app that goes fullscreen. Any hints? SO far found only Games that don't go fullscreen anymore because of the problems | 16:01 |
| * w00t_ looks? | 16:01 | |
| w00t_ | ah, yes, i got told the 23rd a few days ago | 16:01 |
| w00t_ | i'm still very sceptical | 16:01 |
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| w00t_ | that's about the 4th date I've had from them so | 16:02 |
| SpeedEvil | w00t_: I _think_ it's the first time the nokia store has actually mentioned a numeric date - rather than 'mid november' | 16:02 |
| SpeedEvil | or whatever | 16:02 |
| SpeedEvil | nokia.co.uk | 16:02 |
| konttori | RST38h: yeah, it's surprisingly good even as a phone | 16:02 |
| w00t_ | SpeedEvil: on the site, yes, on the phone, no | 16:02 |
| CoreFusion- | Nokia here in Finland starts delivering pre-orders this friday | 16:02 |
| w00t_ | (and via mail) | 16:02 |
| viq | Around here 23rd is also expected date | 16:02 |
| w00t_ | but whatever | 16:02 |
| w00t_ | if it doesn't come next week, I'll probably cancel | 16:03 |
| w00t_ | I've done enough waiting | 16:03 |
| CoreFusion- | and aims to have delivered them during next week, after that other suppliers will follow | 16:03 |
| w00t_ | I need a phone that doesn't suck before I go away | 16:03 |
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| CoreFusion- | w00t_: lol | 16:03 |
| CoreFusion- | don't be so childish | 16:03 |
| w00t_ | CoreFusion-: i'm not, that's the way it is | 16:03 |
| w00t_ | i'm going from the country soon, and i've been dealing with a broken phone for months now | 16:04 |
| w00t_ | it's quite simple really, a product might be perfect for what i need, but if it's always available "next week", then it's no good to me | 16:05 |
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| SpeedEvil | Jam yesterday, jam tomorrow, but never jam today. | 16:05 |
| CoreFusion- | i just don't get this "always next week" | 16:05 |
| CoreFusion- | how many times has Nokia delayed this product? | 16:05 |
| w00t_ | CoreFusion-: according to 0800 331 6021? | 16:06 |
| w00t_ | about 4-5 times now | 16:06 |
| CoreFusion- | anything else than official dates announced by Nokia doesn't mean a thing | 16:06 |
| Lynoure | w00t_: what will you get after next week? | 16:06 |
| w00t_ | they are nokia | 16:06 |
| CoreFusion- | and that's once or twice | 16:06 |
| w00t_ | that's the phone line for shop.nokia.co.uk | 16:06 |
| CoreFusion- | no, phone support is not official dates | 16:07 |
| w00t_ | now, if they can't get their story straight, that's a whole other problem | 16:07 |
| w00t_ | I really couldn't care less | 16:07 |
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| zaheerm-lp | a friend of mine called the flagship store who had tweeted about today being when they start selling instore, he was told next thursday or friday | 16:07 |
| w00t_ | the 23rd is not "official" for the UK either | 16:07 |
| w00t_ | there is no press release | 16:07 |
| w00t_ | so why is that worth anything more than what I was told on the phone? | 16:07 |
| viq | w00t_: I would expect press release on 23rd | 16:08 |
| w00t_ | viq: I'm hoping for one | 16:08 |
| zaheerm-lp | the release dates have been a farce | 16:08 |
| CoreFusion- | no it hasn't | 16:08 |
| w00t_ | I think a lot of people are assuming I'm complaining for the sake of complaining | 16:08 |
| w00t_ | don't get me wrong, I'm not | 16:08 |
| w00t_ | I'm not really even complaining | 16:08 |
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| w00t_ | at this stage I don't care :-) | 16:08 |
| alterego | If they had, like, a set date, then I'm sure they'd have queues of people. | 16:08 |
| alterego | But this moving target date is ridiculous. | 16:08 |
| CoreFusion- | .. | 16:09 |
| tero | Hi! Can anyone tell me how to adjust the row height of gtk.TreeView inside hildon.PannableArea()? If I add the treeview to normal gtk.ScrolledWindow, the row height is ok. | 16:09 |
| w00t_ | if it comes next week, they get my money, if it doesn't come, I might look into the HD2 | 16:09 |
| CoreFusion- | well that's your loss | 16:09 |
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| Khertan | Hello !!! | 16:09 |
| alterego | If you can't wait a few weeks, a month, how ever long. IT just show's you're impatient. | 16:10 |
| zaheerm-lp | alterego, exactly...currently they piss off people who have preordered or are waiting to go to the shops and buy which is pretty sad because it is the best nokia phone for a long time | 16:10 |
| alterego | Sure, we'd all /like/ to have it now. | 16:10 |
| w00t_ | alterego: as I said, *I'm leaving the country* | 16:10 |
| alterego | Oh, right, I was on lunch, missed that ;) | 16:10 |
| w00t_ | if I'm not here to sign for it, it's shipped back to nokia in 48 hours, and I don't get refunded my shipping | 16:10 |
| alterego | Should have gone for the free shipping ;) | 16:11 |
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| w00t_ | haha, yes | 16:11 |
| alterego | To be honest, I don't care, because I don't get paid until next Friday anyway. | 16:11 |
| w00t_ | if you exclude the fact that it's not out yet, express shipping ~1.5-2 months after I ordered is a bit amusing | 16:12 |
| alterego | The problem I'm going to be faced with, is them running out of stock, which I can see happening. | 16:12 |
| alterego | That is amusing, because what's 2 extra days :P | 16:12 |
| zaheerm-lp | alterego, one hopes they are using this delay to ramp up stock levels :) | 16:12 |
| alterego | Heh | 16:12 |
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| alterego | Maybe they're using this delay to count the number of complaints so they know how many to make ;) | 16:13 |
| w00t_ | zaheerm-lp: that's a fallacy | 16:13 |
| CoreFusion- | But claims that the release has been a farce are ridiculous | 16:13 |
| alterego | I heard they didn't make much money the last fy :) | 16:13 |
| alterego | I didn't get the N810 until miod January. | 16:13 |
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| alterego | And I ordered it Nov, if I remember correctly. | 16:13 |
| w00t_ | zaheerm-lp: they may have produced more, but demand going up means more is demanded (until a certain point when people go buy something that's out), meaning they end up overstocked as a result | 16:13 |
| wazd_ | meh, I can't even order n75 from forum.nokia :D | 16:14 |
| zaheerm-lp | CoreFusion-, i think announcing that it has shipped helps noone, they should announce the date it is in the nokia stores | 16:14 |
| w00t_ | wazd_: did they ever contact you? | 16:14 |
| w00t_ | zaheerm-lp: and they did - in the US | 16:14 |
| w00t_ | with the slight hitch that uh | 16:14 |
| w00t_ | it's not available | 16:14 |
| CoreFusion- | When shipping half way around the globe you expect them to give you a presice date? | 16:14 |
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| wazd_ | w00t_: erm, no :) | 16:14 |
| w00t_ | wazd_: :/ | 16:15 |
| zaheerm-lp | CoreFusion-, they own all the flagship stores, surely like apple they can do a coordinated release right? | 16:15 |
| alterego | BREAKING NEWS: 4 of the 5 ships that are carrying N900's have sunk whilst on route from Korea :P | 16:15 |
| w00t_ | I saw a post on tmo with a good picture for that, alterego | 16:15 |
| alterego | The 5th ship arrived safely with it's delivery to Poland. | 16:15 |
| * alterego chuckles | 16:16 | |
| w00t_ | should make a nice blog post about it to create yet more media frenzy :-) | 16:16 |
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| zaheerm-lp | you'd get divers trying to get their hands on them in the pacific | 16:16 |
| CoreFusion- | zaheerm-lp: and delay the delivery on other countries until the one store that is the slowest to get their shipment get it? | 16:16 |
| alterego | I almost wet myself about the rumour that Nokia were halting Symbian devices. | 16:16 |
| alterego | People are just so retarded sometimes ^.^ | 16:16 |
| PaulFertser | CoreFusion-: what is coordinated release for? | 16:17 |
| w00t_ | PaulFertser: direct that question to zaheerm-lp | 16:17 |
| PaulFertser | w00t_: you're right, i misread the comment :) | 16:17 |
| w00t_ | my own view though is that it stops them being scalped and resold to death online to make cutthroat profits | 16:17 |
| zaheerm-lp | CoreFusion-, seems what they did right? finland to finland or other parts of europe is a pretty quick shopment | 16:17 |
| CoreFusion- | they are not shipping from finland you know? | 16:18 |
| w00t_ | zaheerm-lp: they were produced in korea | 16:18 |
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| zaheerm-lp | yes i know they're made in korea | 16:18 |
| zaheerm-lp | who flashes the firmware just before delivery? the koreans or the finns? | 16:19 |
| w00t_ | presumably, it's all done there | 16:19 |
| w00t_ | it would be rather inefficient to do it otherwise | 16:19 |
| PaulFertser | BTW, is jtag ~easily accessible on n900? | 16:20 |
| * CoreFusion- goes to take the dogs out -> | 16:21 | |
| alterego | Urgh, the HD2 is Windows. | 16:21 |
| zaheerm-lp | PaulFertser, i was told it is not too difficult | 16:21 |
| alterego | Windows trying to look like apple | 16:21 |
| zaheerm-lp | alterego, what were you expecting? :) | 16:21 |
| w00t_ | alterego: indeed, but hey, I've been using WM for the past 4 years | 16:21 |
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| w00t_ | it's not good, but it's tolerable | 16:22 |
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| alterego | 3 days is more tolerable :P | 16:22 |
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| PaulFertser | zaheerm-lp: nice to hear, thanks :) | 16:23 |
| w00t_ | haha | 16:23 |
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| w00t_ | well, hopefully it will happen, like I said | 16:23 |
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| alterego | "480 X 800 WVGA" pahaha | 16:25 |
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| sp3000 | that's TVGA :P | 16:25 |
| mzz | meh, I'm pretty sure I've used a monitor with not many more pixels than that | 16:26 |
| mzz | err, yeah, that's swapped | 16:26 |
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| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: don't think there's jtag on either n900 or n8x0 | 16:27 |
| Stskeeps | at least wired up | 16:28 |
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| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: oh really? that'd be very strange. How do nokia folks debug it on lowlevel then? | 16:28 |
| Robot101 | eh, there's all sorts if you have a flashing station thingy which plugs into the pins under the battery | 16:29 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: serial? dunno | 16:30 |
| PaulFertser | Robot101: i know there's uart under the battery on n810. | 16:30 |
| Stskeeps | nolo's probably been debugged before final hw anyway | 16:31 |
| alterego | Those pins are probably jtag | 16:31 |
| alterego | Well, they're probably two things, jtag and a uart | 16:31 |
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| Stskeeps | http://www.bu3sch.de/joomla/index.php/nokia-n810-serial-console for n810 | 16:32 |
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| PaulFertser | UART on n810 is nothing new, but some serious work is better done with jtage. | 16:33 |
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| alterego | IT seems to me, that Nokia get a lot of stress from the maemo community, I've not seen them get this amount of dogging for any symbian devices, but it seems to happen with every Maemo device so far, | 16:42 |
| alterego | Though, I remember saying this exact thing last time too. | 16:43 |
| Stskeeps | intelligent buyers are scary | 16:43 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:43 |
| alterego | Heh | 16:43 |
| PaulFertser | Because maemo community is educated enough to ask for cool and useful features and to require proper attitude. | 16:43 |
| alterego | I don't know about intelligent, I read, t.m.o sometimes and wonder. | 16:43 |
| alterego | There's a laughable thread on the official nokia support forum about a load of unhappy N97 owners saying that Nokia should swap the N97 devices with N900's free of charge. | 16:44 |
| Stskeeps | i think we should delete the shipping threads when things do ship. | 16:45 |
| Stskeeps | they've gotten too insane. | 16:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:45 |
| alterego | It's pretty old but I Came across it again today. | 16:45 |
| w00t_ | hey | 16:45 |
| w00t_ | the shipping threads are all that's keeping me *sane* | 16:45 |
| w00t_ | ;) | 16:45 |
| w00t_ | i suppose this says somethi about my current frame of mind, though.. | 16:45 |
| Venomrush | even the new thread, 'n900 owners' are taking a hit | 16:46 |
| Venomrush | thought i would get some nice comments about the device from real owners | 16:46 |
| w00t_ | Venomrush: hey, you're the same as on tmo? | 16:47 |
| Venomrush | w00t_, what's tmo | 16:48 |
| w00t_ | talk | 16:48 |
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| Venomrush | yeah | 16:48 |
| w00t_ | nice to put a name to the posts | 16:48 |
| w00t_ | hi :-) | 16:48 |
| Venomrush | hi :) | 16:48 |
| Venomrush | just started joining the IRC | 16:48 |
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| lopz | hi :\ | 16:54 |
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| kalikiana | lopz, what's with the sad face today? :) | 16:56 |
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| * javispedro sighs at yet another mention of "the maemo 5 emulator" | 17:01 | |
| GAN900 | Time for a new drinking game. | 17:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, pong? | 17:02 |
| ccooke | javispedro: what's so bad about it? | 17:02 |
| javispedro | ccooke: that people ARE making opinions about the platform based on it. | 17:02 |
| lopz | kalikiana, hehe ;) | 17:03 |
| ccooke | javispedro: argh! | 17:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Browser bug actually fixed. | 17:03 |
| javispedro | now consider the blue colors bug, that half the applications on extras are missing, that it is actually faster than the device.. | 17:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Let's see if it's really fixed. . . . | 17:03 |
| lopz | kalikiana, No sad face, is rare face:) | 17:04 |
| javispedro | faster on cpu, while much slower animations if you didn't get 3d acceleration, etc. | 17:04 |
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| Stskeeps | any of you know what OMAP2420 core version the N810 has? | 17:05 |
| javispedro | ccooke: and in the latest case I assume the guy is going to use "the emulator" to check for codec support. not realising it is not and emulator and the device uses dsp codecs. | 17:05 |
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| javispedro | s/and emulator/an emulator | 17:06 |
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| Stskeeps | javispedro: guy answered | 17:08 |
| javispedro | good news :) | 17:09 |
| * Khertan didn't go anymore to talk.maemo.org ... too many noise | 17:09 | |
| ccooke | ... *laugh* | 17:09 |
| * Khertan did read anymore planet.maemo.org ... too many blogs with false statements ... | 17:09 | |
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| javispedro | ah, planet. | 17:10 |
| ccooke | just had a guy come up to me saying he'd been in a documentation meeting where apparently they were talking about the n900 and griping that I had one ;-) | 17:10 |
| lardman | good to see meetings are productive in your absence hey? | 17:10 |
| ccooke | it wasn't even anything to do with me :-) | 17:10 |
| * Khertan hate all this maemo-guru, maemo-expert ... and all others look like blog maintained by people that come from symbian and didn't seeing far away from their neck | 17:11 | |
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| * Khertan prefers the old small maemo community ... without all this whinning people ... | 17:11 | |
| * Khertan can now be qualified as : asocial .... | 17:12 | |
| javispedro | hah, welcome to the club! | 17:12 |
| javispedro | </ironic> ;) | 17:12 |
| zaheerm-lp | ccooke, i'm sure people at work gripe about me having one too :) | 17:12 |
| RST38h | A private mailing list with device's MAC address as the password? | 17:13 |
| * Khertan still didn't understand how people can vote thumbs down on guy announcing new program on planet ... or the start delivery of the n900 .... | 17:13 | |
| SpeedEvil | qemu target and full emulation would be nice. | 17:13 |
| SpeedEvil | If it wasn't 5% sped that is. | 17:13 |
| SpeedEvil | speed | 17:13 |
| * RST38h thumbs down all the posts from that goddamn Fennec aggregator | 17:14 | |
| * lardman skips straight to the development section | 17:14 | |
| Stskeeps | lardman: do you know what version of OMAP2420 sits in N810? | 17:14 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: no, and I'm not sure how one can find out either | 17:15 |
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| lardman | iirc there's a command to return the DSP version, or I think there is | 17:15 |
| lardman | but that's probably not going to tell you what you need to know | 17:15 |
| Stskeeps | k | 17:15 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: guy answered, was on leave yesterday so | 17:15 |
| lardman | perhaps CPU + DSP versions point to OMAP version? | 17:15 |
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| lardman | ah, so that's important is it? | 17:16 |
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| Khertan | exemple : Maemo 5 final release: firmware and updated SDK <<< the quim gil post ... announcing the availability of the new firmware and final sdk | 17:16 |
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| Khertan | how can you vote thumb down on that | 17:17 |
| Khertan | ? | 17:17 |
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| Stskeeps | lardman: heh, just imagine if it turned out the socs we have don't have it | 17:17 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: lol, that would be bad... | 17:17 |
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| lardman | though it appears to power up anyway, so I guess not | 17:17 |
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| lardman | will we get source for the test fns? Would be good to know what fails | 17:18 |
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| Stskeeps | giving him access to my n810 atm | 17:19 |
| Khertan | Question about hildon.FileCHooserDialog ? i didn't get any icon like in other application when i run one on PyGTKEditor, did i miss something ? | 17:19 |
| lardman | ok cool | 17:19 |
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| lardman | Stskeeps: /me imagines ssh access + webcam to see if the screen does anything :) | 17:20 |
| Stskeeps | that can be organized, but i'll get him to make the bloody thing initialize first | 17:20 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:20 |
| lardman | indeed | 17:21 |
| kalikiana | Khertan, what kind of icon? | 17:22 |
| hrw | looks like Nokia is hiring in Finland | 17:22 |
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| Khertan | kalikiana: the small one ... like folder | 17:22 |
| hrw | I got two mails from recruting company - one for device drivers, second for maemo development | 17:22 |
| lardman | Stskeeps: basically he needs to fix the display class stuffv | 17:23 |
| Khertan | kalikiana: it s an open chooser dialog | 17:23 |
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| kalikiana | Khertan, here pyGTKEditor doesn't open any dialogue when I do File > Open | 17:25 |
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| kalikiana | or did you modify it? | 17:25 |
| Khertan | kalikiana: i'm currently rewriting it from scratch for fremantle | 17:26 |
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| kalikiana | ah | 17:26 |
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| Khertan | kalikiana: a preview : http://khertan.net/2009/11/pygtkeditor-3-0-is-still-in-development/ | 17:26 |
| Khertan | :) | 17:26 |
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| kalikiana | Khertan, while you're at it, please fix the icons :D | 17:27 |
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| Khertan | kalikiana: the icons ? | 17:27 |
| Khertan | what s the problem with it ? | 17:28 |
| kalikiana | Khertan, they are not themed | 17:28 |
| * alterego thinks the "Countdown Home Desktop" widget screenshot should have a "Countdown until N900 released" screen shot instead ^.^ | 17:29 | |
| Khertan | hum ... but it s standart gtk stock icon so they should be | 17:29 |
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| hrw | Khertan: but it is maemo... | 17:31 |
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| Khertan | hrw: if i remember it s still based on gtk ? | 17:32 |
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| hrw | Khertan: patched gtk so I would check maemogtk sources first | 17:32 |
| Khertan | so i didn't understand why this doesnt work | 17:32 |
| kalikiana | Khertan, that's a bug in the platform, but I don't know if it will be fixed at all since there wasn't much response from designers | 17:32 |
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| Khertan | kalikiana: and how does we get "Maemo"Stock icon ? | 17:33 |
| Khertan | there is something somewhere about it ? | 17:33 |
| Khertan | or does should i use directly icon theme file ? | 17:33 |
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| kalikiana | Khertan, I have a little script that creates symbolic links. If it's not fixed in the platform, we'll probably have a package that contains such a script | 17:34 |
| kalikiana | So far I'm waiting if something happens | 17:34 |
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| kalikiana | Khertan, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=223 | 17:35 |
| povbot | Bug 223: Maemo doesn't contain properly themed versions of Gtk stock icons | 17:35 |
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| kalikiana | Khertan, meanwhile you can use GtkIconFactory to map icons | 17:35 |
| kalikiana | that's what I did in my code | 17:35 |
| kalikiana | it's C, though | 17:35 |
| kalikiana | if it helps, I can show you the C code | 17:36 |
| Khertan | hum ... i ll try to look if there is binding in py thx | 17:36 |
| Khertan | oh yes ... | 17:36 |
| * Khertan will be back in 2 minutes | 17:36 | |
| kalikiana | Khertan, http://git.xfce.org/apps/midori/tree/midori/sokoke.c#n985 | 17:37 |
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| Khertan | i m back | 17:43 |
| Khertan | thx | 17:43 |
| Khertan | i m looking | 17:43 |
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| GAN900 | Khertan, spiteful people. | 17:47 |
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| GAN900 | lardman, pong? | 17:47 |
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| Khertan | GAN900: ? | 17:48 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Khertan, spiteful people are the people who thumb announcements like that. | 17:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | "But I can't afford an N900. :pout: :click:" | 17:49 |
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| Stskeeps | well, that's one downside to the sw platform being iterative... when next device comes out, old device is a lot cheaper | 17:50 |
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| Khertan | GeneralAntilles: yep but i can't understand that | 17:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Khertan, it takes a certain nasty mentality. ;) | 17:51 |
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| Khertan | GeneralAntilles: clearly ... and i don't see it using an open source device or contributing to an open source community | 17:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Seriously, what was Engadget thinking? | 17:53 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Zeigler must be some kind of stupid. | 17:53 |
| RST38h | I AM BUYING HTC HD2 RIGHT NOW | 17:53 |
| RST38h | THIS WILL BE THE END FOR NOKIA! | 17:53 |
| RST38h | (everyone run for the hills!) | 17:54 |
| RST38h | ;) | 17:54 |
| range | $CLEVER_WIN-MO_RETORT | 17:54 |
| GiantTalkingCow | What about Engadget now? | 17:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | New theme with the header from hell. | 17:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | 2048x1152 here and I can only see the title of the first article. | 17:57 |
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| GiantTalkingCow | Wow, that looks awful. Back to Gizmodo for me, then. | 17:57 |
| Khertan | oh ... i ven't read engadget for a long time ago | 17:57 |
| Khertan | ouch ... engadget is really horrible .... | 17:58 |
| Khertan | endgadget :) | 17:58 |
| RST38h | Google Reader. | 17:59 |
| * RST38h never goes directly to Engadget nowadays | 17:59 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Damnit, when did it get cold again here? :( | 17:59 |
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| javispedro | HTC HD2... windows... pft. | 18:09 |
| alterego | Yeah, I share an office with a guy who's contemplating either the HD2 or the N900 | 18:10 |
| alterego | From his perspective, he's probably better off with the HD2 | 18:10 |
| alterego | His current mobile is Windowsw. | 18:10 |
| javispedro | if you're used to it I guess anything else will deceive you. | 18:10 |
| zaheerm-lp | less risk for him then | 18:10 |
| alterego | He's a Microsoft nut | 18:10 |
| javispedro | You have to be prepared to lose quite a chunk of functionality | 18:10 |
| alterego | Exactly, | 18:11 |
| * javispedro lost decent PIM app when switching to the N810 from Palm m130 | 18:11 | |
| alterego | Of course, he's a coder, and we've done Linux projects together, so it's not completely above him to do some hacking, but I think he'll be one of those people that just expects all of the apps he needs to be available straight away. | 18:11 |
| javispedro | from Palm T|X actually, but even the m130 PIM apps are good. | 18:11 |
| javispedro | oh, DDP reserved funds released! | 18:14 |
| jayabharath | All: On freemantle (Maemo5) N900 -- does the Clutter based UI -- use OpenGLES 1.x or OpenGLES 2.x backend on OMAP3430.. Anyone here knows? | 18:14 |
| javispedro | jayabharath: 2 | 18:15 |
| javispedro | jayabharath: and it's using non trivial shaders | 18:15 |
| javispedro | (for example, blurring) | 18:15 |
| javispedro | and it's spelled fremantle. | 18:15 |
| w00t_ | lol. | 18:16 |
| jayabharath | javispedro: Thanks for the quick answer... (sorry about my spelling :D - my coffee has not yet kicked in) | 18:16 |
| javispedro | np | 18:18 |
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| hrw | javispedro: when you moved from PalmOS to Maemo you loose pim at all | 18:20 |
| javispedro | hrw: well, I use GPE now. | 18:20 |
| javispedro | but the tap count is nowhere similar. | 18:20 |
| javispedro | which means less appointmens filed -> less organization -> more chaos -> less free time | 18:21 |
| javispedro | :( | 18:21 |
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| Flyser | there is no calendar in maemo 5? | 18:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | There is. | 18:21 |
| javispedro | there is. | 18:21 |
| hrw | javispedro: it is hard to beat palmos pim when it comes to simplicity of use | 18:22 |
| kurtan | where did you get that from ? ofc there is | 18:22 |
| kurtan | :P | 18:22 |
| Flyser | but? | 18:22 |
| javispedro | Flyser: I'm talking about m4 | 18:22 |
| hrw | javispedro: and I still miss Agendus | 18:22 |
| Flyser | okay | 18:22 |
| javispedro | hrw: I was a fan of the builtin pim. I didn't need anything more other than hard button -> tap -> start writing for appointment | 18:22 |
| hrw | javispedro: I used many parts of agendus. more views, colours, icons, linking | 18:23 |
| javispedro | well, I liked the colors and birthdays features from the extended palm1 apps. | 18:23 |
| javispedro | but the rest--never used :P | 18:24 |
| wazd_ | how many more people will ask for clock widget I wonder :) | 18:25 |
| * hardaker will miss datebk6 | 18:25 | |
| Flandry | i know huh | 18:26 |
| wazd_ | we were making it with fiferboy but his wife brought new Olmsted in this world so the developement is stoped for a while :D | 18:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Damn fiferboy 2.0 | 18:27 |
| wazd_ | ~seen fiferboy | 18:27 |
| infobot | fiferboy <n=fiferboy@Maemo/community/contributor/fiferboy> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 5d 21h 57m 17s ago, saying: 'If qwerty12 doesn't know it, it can't be known'. | 18:27 |
| Stskeeps | so true | 18:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, pish. | 18:27 |
| Flandry | probably hasn't slept since then | 18:27 |
| Khertan | wazd_: wife bug always delay developpment | 18:27 |
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| zeev | did anybody hear of smb. getting his N900 already? | 18:28 |
| Khertan | samba ? | 18:29 |
| toggles_w | somebody? | 18:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | zeev, are you abbreviating because you're on an N900 keyboard? :P | 18:29 |
| Khertan | :) | 18:29 |
| wazd_ | Run! he can infect us! | 18:30 |
| Khertan | zeev: just got a pre production one | 18:30 |
| javispedro | half this channel has one. | 18:30 |
| wazd_ | and another half is me :D | 18:30 |
| zeev | I mean pre ordered one | 18:30 |
| javispedro | wazd_: and me :( | 18:30 |
| wazd_ | javispedro: oh?! | 18:30 |
| wazd_ | javispedro: how come? I thought you were on the summit | 18:31 |
| javispedro | I wasn't | 18:31 |
| javispedro | I'm on the DDP though | 18:31 |
| Khertan | someone got an answer / confirmation from the store for the ddp device ? | 18:31 |
| javispedro | nah | 18:31 |
| Khertan | i ve done the command and checkout ... but no news since, and never see anything on my online bank account | 18:32 |
| toggles_w | can anyone that has one tell me if mariana will be in my contact list when i get mine? | 18:32 |
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| Stskeeps | heh, people who went to maemo developer days got a free n900 | 18:32 |
| Stskeeps | not a loaner | 18:32 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: PR > Community :) | 18:33 |
| Khertan | Stskeeps: really ? | 18:34 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: yeah, in cph | 18:34 |
| Khertan | i ven't didn't hear about this maemo developper day | 18:34 |
| Stskeeps | my former boss went | 18:34 |
| Khertan | what is it ? | 18:34 |
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| wazd_ | Stskeeps: so your former boss have his very own n900 and you haven't? :D | 18:35 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: oh this ridiculous life :D | 18:35 |
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| Khertan | it ll be very hard for next event made by nokia to caught a seat if they loan or offer device everytimes | 18:37 |
| Khertan | :) | 18:38 |
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| hrw | I hope that final Polish translation is better then one in SDK :D | 18:41 |
| Stskeeps | danish one is horrible on device. i switched to english. :P | 18:41 |
| hrw | Polish one has wdgt_va_24h_time and wdgt_va_date_long | 18:42 |
| Stskeeps | ick | 18:42 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 18:42 |
| zeev | so nobody who preordered n900 got one, right? | 18:42 |
| hrw | I am 33 years old, got good education and do not understand those Polish words | 18:43 |
| hrw | zeev: there was rumour that we will get them in 2H2010 | 18:43 |
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| ShadowJK | zeev, I doubt it :) | 18:45 |
| ShadowJK | but it's getting nearer now | 18:45 |
| andre__ | hrw, https://bugs.maemo.org/enter_bug.cgi?classification=Translations | 18:45 |
| hrw | scratchbox is sick | 18:45 |
| andre__ | also to me it looks like Nokia saved money for localization :-/ | 18:45 |
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| andre__ | hrw, oops, should be https://bugs.maemo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Translations | 18:46 |
| hrw | andre__: I refuse posting bugs before testing on device | 18:46 |
| Flandry | hrw: That's the best summary i've yet seen :P | 18:46 |
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| andre__ | hrw, i see | 18:46 |
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| tbf | andre__: hrw: yes, nokia got really strange guys for doing the localization | 18:46 |
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| hrw | and I want to shout/kick/makeharm for person which decided to use sbox for maemo | 18:47 |
| Stskeeps | lo qwerty12 | 18:47 |
| tbf | it's a specialized company, and those guys doing localization pretend to be native speakers | 18:47 |
| hrw | qemu is better then that crap | 18:47 |
| qwerty12 | Hiya, Stskeeps | 18:47 |
| tbf | but people had endless discussions with them over proper terms | 18:47 |
| hrw | 10x resolv.conf just in /scratchbox dir... | 18:48 |
| andre__ | some German translations I saw were just complete bullshit | 18:48 |
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| hrw | tbf: I know that Nokia refuse to use community translations. We tried to give them Polish translation of Diablo | 18:48 |
| tbf | ...unfortunately those strange localization guys are very insistent, so most devs gave up on correcting them | 18:48 |
| tbf | hrw: let's talk with quim again. | 18:49 |
| Stskeeps | hrw: harmattan will change that | 18:49 |
| Stskeeps | big discussions about it and workshop coming up | 18:49 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: and will attempt to grab next €€€ from pocket | 18:49 |
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| javispedro | oh nice, because I'm fearing that now that they control the toolkit too it will diverge even more from desktop Linux. | 18:50 |
| andre__ | Community translations: Also see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=27997 | 18:50 |
| hrw | for me n900 will be device which will show is there a sense on nokia devices | 18:50 |
| tbf | hrw: well. btw: nothing stops you from putting community translations into extras-devel | 18:50 |
| hrw | tbf: they will conflict with system one | 18:51 |
| tbf | hrw: if you give them a higher version number, as done in ubuntu ppas, the extras package will overrule the SSU package | 18:51 |
| hrw | tbf: to next SSU etc | 18:51 |
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| suihkulokki | hrw: have talked to timeless? he has done his own english translation | 18:51 |
| tbf | hrw: yes, that's the price to pay. | 18:52 |
| hrw | suihkulokki: I know, I looked at his package some time ago | 18:52 |
| tbf | hrw: but i doubt there will be many l10n updates between major updates | 18:52 |
| timeless_mbp | um | 18:52 |
| hrw | tbf: I am not that type of developer | 18:52 |
| timeless_mbp | there are updates for the first service release | 18:52 |
| timeless_mbp | which i haven't dealt with | 18:52 |
| timeless_mbp | i would not bet against additional strings | 18:52 |
| hrw | tbf: will rather stay with english | 18:52 |
| tbf | hrw: create a topic and talk.maemo.org and find people who help you :-D | 18:52 |
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| timeless_mbp | even though they're expensive, if they're needed for a feature | 18:52 |
| Khertan | the last fw update is better in battery drain ... but the modest bug is really annoying | 18:53 |
| Khertan | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6219 | 18:53 |
| povbot | Bug 6219: Modest doesn't take care of preferences for automatic update | 18:53 |
| tbf | hrw: let's team up and finally overrule those weird translators nokia bought! :-D | 18:53 |
| timeless_mbp | my intention is to when i'm feeling a bit better put together a debian/rules file to build this and push it to extras-testing | 18:53 |
| andre__ | Khertan, vote, vote ;-) | 18:53 |
| Khertan | i'm the opener :) | 18:54 |
| andre__ | i know :-P | 18:54 |
| tbf | hrw: for edition the translations we could use one of the zillions web based tools | 18:54 |
| Khertan | i ve already vote :) | 18:54 |
| hrw | tbf: I know | 18:54 |
| hrw | anyway now I wait for device to be shipped | 18:55 |
| Khertan | with this last fw i was hoping we got a preferences for the instant messaging ... and instead of that we lost the one on email :) | 18:55 |
| tbf | hrw: i'd still would over this deal: you get and keep the forum topic running, and i provide technical support | 18:56 |
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| tbf | offer | 18:56 |
| tbf | hell, my spelling! | 18:56 |
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| hrw | tbf: first I want to check state of translation. and then there is TomaszD who is official GNOME translator so he would be better person for that task probably ;d | 18:56 |
| tbf | hrw: you know where to find me ;-) | 18:57 |
| Stskeeps | (who's going to barcelona on behalf of Mer) | 18:57 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: GSM conf? | 18:57 |
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| Stskeeps | hrw: no, maemo barcelona long weekend | 18:57 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: make one in Berlin... | 18:57 |
| Stskeeps | documentation, localization, ux/code, etc themes | 18:57 |
| * hrw wants maemosdk without sbox | 18:58 | |
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| Khertan | oh ... | 19:00 |
| Khertan | just got a nokia store email ... | 19:00 |
| Khertan | n900 available on fr store | 19:01 |
| ccooke | Khertan: cancellation? ;-) | 19:01 |
| Khertan | 649 Euros | 19:01 |
| Khertan | no we cannot preorder in the fr store | 19:01 |
| Khertan | :) | 19:01 |
| Khertan | but i m still waiting news from the "pseudo" pro nokia forum estore and the ddp | 19:01 |
| Khertan | no news, no answer to email, no confirmation for paiement | 19:02 |
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| Khertan | nothing in bank account | 19:02 |
| Khertan | does some guys get news for the ddp program ? | 19:02 |
| Khertan | did somebody already receive his device ? | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | don't think so | 19:03 |
| TomaszD | hrw, hey, what's up? | 19:03 |
| hrw | Khertan: second half of 2010 is latest rumour about ddp | 19:03 |
| Khertan | did you got an confirmation when buying ? | 19:03 |
| Robot101 | Khertan: what does forum nokia offer? | 19:03 |
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| hrw | TomaszD: fixing Polish translation probably will need to be done - what do you think? | 19:03 |
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| Khertan | Robot101: nothing than that the way for ddp | 19:03 |
| TomaszD | hrw, fixing where, what? | 19:04 |
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| Khertan | hrw: lol | 19:04 |
| hrw | Khertan: my order is over week old and status did not changed | 19:04 |
| RST38h | Hmm...looks like DPP reversed bank transaction | 19:04 |
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| RST38h | So, no N900 this time? =) | 19:04 |
| hrw | TomaszD: Polish one has wdgt_va_24h_time and wdgt_va_date_long | 19:04 |
| Khertan | hrw: where did you see the statut ? | 19:04 |
| Stskeeps | hopefully this means we all get free n900s, RST38h ;p | 19:04 |
| hrw | RST38h: mine was not yet unblocked | 19:04 |
| hrw | Khertan: in eStore | 19:04 |
| RST38h | Sts: most miracles I have ever experienced weren't of a good kind... | 19:05 |
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| hrw | I am really starting to 'love' sbox... | 19:05 |
| Khertan | hrw: really ? | 19:05 |
| hrw | Setting up libosso-abook... | 19:05 |
| hrw | You must be roo to launch this program. | 19:05 |
| hrw | WTF? | 19:05 |
| hrw | s/roo/root | 19:05 |
| Stskeeps | fakeroot apt-get? | 19:05 |
| Khertan | hrw: did you get an email after you have done paiement ? | 19:05 |
| TomaszD | hrw, what are you talking about? which application, official Maemo 5.0 release has missing Polish translations? | 19:05 |
| timeless_mbp | tbf: i'm probably going to adapt my package to let people do semi live editing | 19:05 |
| RST38h | FN still shows N900 available for purchase, so I guess they cancelled it | 19:05 |
| timeless_mbp | because it seems like a lot of people would like that | 19:06 |
| hrw | TomaszD: in sdk I see those on statusbar instead of time | 19:06 |
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| TomaszD | hrw, well, probably the sdk is broken somehow when it comes to l10n | 19:06 |
| javispedro | ah well, another week of "when's the DDP N900 going to ship?" ;) | 19:06 |
| Kieron_ | haha ^ | 19:07 |
| Kieron_ | yo guys | 19:07 |
| TomaszD | hrw, I just found a couple of issues with 5.0 and reported them, some of those issues have already been fixed | 19:07 |
| TomaszD | I would guess that only the standard English engineering strings are included in the sdk | 19:08 |
| tbf | timeless_mbp: shall i change my nick from something matching "to be fair" to something different? | 19:08 |
| RST38h | javis: So, before or after Christmas? Willing to bet? | 19:08 |
| Kieron_ | before. | 19:08 |
| Khertan | hrw: Oh i found that order link | 19:08 |
| timeless_mbp | tbf: i'm too asleep to notice | 19:08 |
| hrw | TomaszD: or jsut older packages. I jsut did upgrade and sbox do not even want to start | 19:08 |
| timeless_mbp | i treat these strings as opaque | 19:08 |
| Khertan | hrw: thx ... no i m sure that the order was registered | 19:08 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm vaguely used to Sir tbl | 19:08 |
| TomaszD | hrw, have not had to deal with the sdk yet, I just installed it yesterday, I suggest you report any issue you find | 19:09 |
| javispedro | RST38h: I'd need it by December 16th, so my bet is December 17th. | 19:09 |
| hrw | TomaszD: I am waiting for device before will report maemo5 bugs | 19:09 |
| javispedro | avid Murphy's Law reader, you see :) | 19:09 |
| Kieron_ | any Qt coders here? | 19:09 |
| Khertan | javispedro: the problem isn't when when when ... but no information / confirmation / answer to email if the order was registered or not | 19:09 |
| Khertan | javispedro: and in estore it s difficult to found the 'my order' link | 19:10 |
| Khertan | :) | 19:10 |
| RST38h | javis: Why Dec 16 though? | 19:10 |
| TomaszD | hrw, good idea, also check the bugzilla before reporting, some of the issues you might encounter have already been fixed in internal builds | 19:10 |
| javispedro | Khertan: agreed, that's why I am yet to paid. | 19:10 |
| hrw | TomaszD: I know. I use that strange platform since fosdem 2007 | 19:10 |
| javispedro | RST38h: deadline before I decide to go on code a demo in iphone | 19:10 |
| hrw | TomaszD: and bugs were nearly half of my karma | 19:10 |
| TomaszD | although I'm very unhappy that they've ignored one of my suggestions, they call tags "znaczniki" instead of "etykiety"... | 19:11 |
| TomaszD | which is really killing me | 19:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | javispedro, and HD2? | 19:11 |
| TomaszD | but it's WONTFIX | 19:11 |
| RST38h | javis: Ehehehe | 19:11 |
| Khertan | now i know that the order is registered .... just waiting | 19:11 |
| javispedro | GeneralAntilles: unfortunately I can only steal iphones around here ;) | 19:11 |
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| * RST38h wonders what .ru translation for tags would be | 19:11 | |
| Kieron_ | I have a question. About to start a coding project, for Maemo5 N900. I want to know whether if I start coding in Qt will it look identical to a normal C Maemo5 app | 19:12 |
| javispedro | GeneralAntilles: this is just a stupid for a stupid schoolwork, I'm not saying I'm going to switch to iphone. | 19:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, sure, whatever, traitor. | 19:13 |
| javispedro | muahaha | 19:13 |
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| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: did you read 164? | 19:15 |
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| hrw | wdgtbdstop | 19:15 |
| hrw | lovely nokia | 19:15 |
| javispedro | hrw: using the "maemo 5 emulator"? | 19:16 |
| hrw | javispedro: yep | 19:16 |
| hrw | javispedro: no emulator - virtualbox image with sdk | 19:16 |
| javispedro | the don't worry, the spanish localisation is as incomplete | 19:16 |
| timeless_mbp | hrw: what are you doing? | 19:16 |
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| javispedro | s/the/then | 19:16 |
| javispedro | s/s/z | 19:16 |
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| andre__ | "emulator" instead of "SDK" is so weird | 19:16 |
| javispedro | andre__: agreed. | 19:16 |
| hrw | timeless_mbp: playing with so called 'maemo 5 sdk' in virtualbox | 19:16 |
| Kieron_ | how can i get a web frame in Qt | 19:17 |
| Khertan | in the estore about my ddp n900 order ... i can read the line : Priority: Critical | 19:17 |
| timeless_mbp | hrw: i think you want my Mer l10n packages | 19:17 |
| Khertan | lol | 19:17 |
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| Kieron_ | aloha? | 19:17 |
| javispedro | blame venomrush and his "N900 emulator guide" | 19:17 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: he's in here :) | 19:17 |
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| javispedro | ah, interesting. | 19:18 |
| hrw | I love nokia i10n ;D | 19:18 |
| Kieron_ | Can anyone help me? I was referred here.. | 19:18 |
| hrw | sfil_li_size_1kb_99 ;d | 19:18 |
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| Stskeeps | hrw: what did you upgrade from? | 19:18 |
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| hrw | Stskeeps: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34517 - official maemo 5 sdk image | 19:19 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: did 'apt-get update;apt-get upgrade;fakeroot dpkg --configure -a' in sbox | 19:19 |
| javispedro | Kieron_: http://taschenorakel.de/michael/2009/11/11/qt-46-maemo-it-works/ | 19:19 |
| Venomrush | javispedro, haha what's wrong with my guide | 19:20 |
| Venomrush | i tried to amend the content and title | 19:20 |
| Venomrush | wont let me | 19:20 |
| Venomrush | content yes, title no | 19:20 |
| Venomrush | what do you want me to change | 19:20 |
| Kieron_ | @javispedro danke :) | 19:20 |
| Stskeeps | hrw: hrm, got nokia-binaries token? | 19:20 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: one is inside already | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | k | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | weird you don't get translations but ok | 19:21 |
| javispedro | Venomrush: well, make it clear the SDK is a developers thing -- and that it's not a "N900 emulator". | 19:21 |
| hrw | someone really need to teach maemo autobuilder about dependencies | 19:21 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: I have Polish translation - just not complete | 19:22 |
| RST38h | Venomrush: Calling SDK "emulator" and trying to use it for anything outside development is what is wrong | 19:22 |
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| serenity | hi | 19:23 |
| Venomrush | isn't it true it emulates N900 screen? | 19:23 |
| hrw | Venomrush: it does not | 19:23 |
| Venomrush | hence how i got the term 'emulator' | 19:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Venomrush, the term is wrong. | 19:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's not an emulator. | 19:23 |
| javispedro | only the _ARMEL target emulates something, and it does not do that well. | 19:23 |
| hrw | Stskeeps: l10n "6.0+r7250+0m5" are installed | 19:23 |
| Venomrush | true | 19:23 |
| serenity | i want to zoom in/out in picture viewer. But i found no sliders and circular scrolling doesn't work also | 19:23 |
| Venomrush | well, i can't edit the title | 19:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Venomrush, contact a mod. | 19:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | sjgadsby or Reggie | 19:24 |
| Venomrush | how would u like a new title to be? | 19:24 |
| Venomrush | SDK emulator? | 19:24 |
| javispedro | "Maemo SDK 5 Installation Guide" | 19:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Remove the word emulator completely. | 19:24 |
| Venomrush | okay dokey | 19:25 |
| javispedro | and then i'll even thank you since it seems to have worked succesfully for quite a lot of people. Considering the odds of sbox... | 19:25 |
| Khertan | Software Development Guide - Installation and Use Tutorial | 19:25 |
| Venomrush | it does work well actually | 19:25 |
| Venomrush | i installed serveral apps and was able to report serveral bugs | 19:26 |
| hrw | hmm.. so I see it properly - no Jabber? AIM, GaduGadu, GTalk, Groupwise, ICQ, MSN, QQ, Sametime, Yahoo | 19:26 |
| javispedro | Venomrush: testing has to be done on real device. | 19:26 |
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| serenity | anyone an idea about zooming pictures? | 19:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | hrw, install telepathy-extras | 19:27 |
| javispedro | Venomrush: of course, unless you know enough about the target app you can tell apart a bug that would happen in both i386 or armel (like a typo). | 19:28 |
| Khertan | oh ... just remember that google os was presented today ? | 19:28 |
| Khertan | so any news ? | 19:28 |
| javispedro | but that's not true for the platform apps... | 19:28 |
| hrw | when nokia and maemo will learn about Release.gpg? | 19:28 |
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| javispedro | hrw: the first days the fremantle repo was actually signed. | 19:29 |
| Venomrush | ok, requested change to -> Maemo SDK 5 Installation Guide on Windows PC | 19:29 |
| javispedro | I don't what happened with that... | 19:29 |
| Kieron_ | javispedro: any idea how to 'Hildonize' the GUI from Qt > N900, or does it render automatically | 19:29 |
| Kieron_ | sorry im a symbian noob, not used to all this | 19:29 |
| hrw | GeneralAntilles: installed. got one more MSN and Salut | 19:29 |
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| javispedro | Kieron_: I'm not a Qt dev, but I guess it does, considering that blog post says there are no "platform specific hacks" | 19:30 |
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| javispedro | what's the maemo-qt channel? it's still active? | 19:30 |
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| javispedro | #qt-maemo | 19:31 |
| hrw | argh.. 'Tel. Kom. (pryw.)'... why.... why... | 19:31 |
| Kieron_ | javispedro: cheers. | 19:31 |
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| Venomrush | can i ask about the DDP, i'm thinking of getting a device through DDP to do development work, one retail for personal use | 19:31 |
| Venomrush | getting the device through DDP is that a loan or a permanent buy? how come i was told i'm only able to keep it for a certain period until January or something, then need to return it | 19:32 |
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| Venomrush | that's stupid forking out €250 euros and keep the device for only 2 months, does Nokia refund the money once they get the device back? | 19:32 |
| qwerty12 | Getting a pre-production loan != the same as getting one from DDP | 19:33 |
| Venomrush | ah | 19:33 |
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| qwerty12 | Furthermore, you were only eligible for the DDP if you had 200 karma when they were selecting people | 19:34 |
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| hrw | bu... | 19:34 |
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| hrw | maemo5 calendar is worse then the one which I use on S60 ;( | 19:34 |
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| hrw | time to write blog post | 19:35 |
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| javispedro | hrw: at least seems better than most of the current ones for diabl | 19:35 |
| TomaszD | hrw, how is it worse? | 19:35 |
| zaheerm-lp | i had 3 when the program got announced, i now have 175...shows 200 was in fact a very fair number | 19:35 |
| hrw | javispedro: I like gpe calendar | 19:35 |
| Venomrush | 200 seems pretty easy to get tbh | 19:36 |
| Venomrush | i only joined maemo.org for 2 weeks | 19:36 |
| ShadowJK | zaheerm-lp, whoah :) | 19:36 |
| Venomrush | got 115 already | 19:36 |
| hrw | TomaszD: repeats are worse then in handy calendar - cannot do 'repeat on 3rd Tuesday each month' | 19:36 |
| zaheerm-lp | ShadowJK, people keep thanking my t.m.o posts :) | 19:36 |
| TomaszD | ok, so that's one feature missing | 19:36 |
| hrw | TomaszD: and lack of timezone support suxx | 19:36 |
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| javispedro | ah, features. | 19:37 |
| javispedro | hrw: I kinda hate the tap counts in GPE | 19:37 |
| TomaszD | hrw, well, report these as feature enhancements | 19:37 |
| Venomrush | is the DDP still on for those with 200+? | 19:37 |
| hrw | I have a meeting each Wednesday at 10:00 NYC time. | 19:37 |
| hrw | Venomrush: no, it was one time | 19:37 |
| ShadowJK | heh, my tmo link to maemo.org isn't working :) | 19:37 |
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| hrw | TomaszD: first device, then bugs | 19:37 |
| ShadowJK | tmo is kinda insane, 2 days and 20 pages of new posts.. | 19:37 |
| * qwerty12 's DDP will go unused | 19:38 | |
| ShadowJK | how come? | 19:38 |
| hrw | qwerty12: it will have a use. similar to the one which some devices here have | 19:38 |
| hrw | qwerty12: it is called 'gathering dust' | 19:38 |
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| javispedro | very useful. | 19:39 |
| qwerty12 | ShadowJK: I already have a loaner for a year, and I believe there's a time limit in which I must order the device and I can't justify spending the money to do so :) | 19:39 |
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| ShadowJK | But you can always use two | 19:39 |
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| ShadowJK | when one gets whacked by the watchdog you pick up the other one and by the time that one gets whacked by the watchdog you resume on the first ;) | 19:39 |
| qwerty12 | *grin* | 19:39 |
| qwerty12 | Actually, I've been really lucky. I've only had one WD reboot with the latest firmware | 19:39 |
| javispedro | ah, hardware multitasking ;) | 19:40 |
| ShadowJK | I do that with my N800 and N810.. when the N800 locks up because the browser wants to swapout 150 megabytes of crap, I pickup the N810 and read the IRC backlog ;) | 19:40 |
| ccooke | (mail from mpobilephonesdirect: They'll ship on the 3rd of December. This is actually the first *date* they've given - previously it's been "soon" or "November", etc) | 19:41 |
| javispedro | the IRC backlog, which has 300k lines and thus causes the browser to hang | 19:41 |
| qwerty12 | Oh, BTW, MicroB sucks for reading the IRC backlog | 19:41 |
| qwerty12 | It loads the page fine, but the kinetic scrolling | 19:41 |
| qwerty12 | Urgh | 19:41 |
| ccooke | qwerty12: too slow? too fast? | 19:42 |
| * javispedro wonders if by 2020 the irc logs main page will have enough day entries to overflow most desktop browsers | 19:42 | |
| qwerty12 | ccooke: Takes wayyy too long to get to the end | 19:42 |
| * javispedro misses diablo already | 19:42 | |
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| * ccooke realises his irc client has been logging #ubuntu | 19:42 | |
| qwerty12 | At which point I say "fuck it" and load up Tear which still has a scrollbar, in addition to kinetic scrolling | 19:42 |
| ccooke | oops. Time to clear that 2 gig logfile :-) | 19:42 |
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| Venomrush | you're all be glad to hear the title got changed.. | 19:45 |
| Venomrush | :) | 19:45 |
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| * mgedmin feels bad about not improving irc log views | 19:48 | |
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| * Shapeshifter wants nokia to open up a flagship store in zurich. | 19:52 | |
| Shapeshifter | the swiss are rich suckers, they'll buy lots of phones. There's not even 8'000'000 people in Switzerland, and over 500'000 iphones have already been sold >.> | 19:53 |
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| Venomrush | i'm looking for service manual for the n900 | 19:53 |
| Venomrush | level 1 to 4 | 19:53 |
| Venomrush | they are available but at a cost.. | 19:54 |
| SpeedEvil | They are? | 19:54 |
| SpeedEvil | Where? | 19:54 |
| Venomrush | anyone already got them they can share? | 19:54 |
| Shapeshifter | any of you n900 owners have tried a screen protector? | 19:55 |
| Shapeshifter | or generally a screen protector on a resistive screen? Is it any good to have one of these? | 19:56 |
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| Shapeshifter | or does touching even get tougher? | 19:56 |
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| serenity | i want to zoom in/out in picture viewer. But i found no sliders and circular scrolling doesn't work also | 19:57 |
| serenity | bug or my fault? | 19:57 |
| frals | volume buttons? | 19:57 |
| serenity | dunno, is in scratchbox | 19:57 |
| serenity | but should be available via touchscreen | 19:57 |
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| dneary | Ayayay!!! | 19:58 |
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| dneary | Dumb shit, I am | 19:58 |
| qwerty12 | serenity: Try F8 | 19:58 |
| dneary | Flashing wipes out any downloads off the MMC card | 19:58 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Shapeshifter, I use Boxwave Anti-Glare protectors on most of my devices. | 19:58 |
| dneary | The internal one | 19:58 |
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| Stskeeps | emmc does yeah | 19:58 |
| qwerty12 | dneary: Only if you flash the eMMC | 19:58 |
| dneary | I'd downloaded a bunch of stuff :( | 19:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | They haven't released one for the N900 yet, however. | 19:59 |
| dneary | And was just following the instructions on the list | 19:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, FIASCO does not. | 19:59 |
| Shapeshifter | GeneralAntilles: I see. | 19:59 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Only eMMC, which is something you'll never have to flash again. | 19:59 |
| serenity | qwerty12: f8 is what for? | 19:59 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: It does if you go: | 19:59 |
| dneary | sudo ./flasher-3.5 -f -F firmware_image.bin | 19:59 |
| dneary | sudo ./flasher-3.5 -f -F -R emmc_image.bin | 19:59 |
| serenity | is does zooming via f7/f8. Are these the volume buttons? | 20:00 |
| Venomrush | try martinfields screen protector | 20:00 |
| Venomrush | i've used it on my n97 | 20:00 |
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| Venomrush | theyre well made | 20:00 |
| qwerty12 | serenity: Try it? AFAIK, it corresponds (on the N8x0, at least) to volume down (zoom out). I don't have an xev patched to let you use the volume buttons on the N900 to verify this | 20:00 |
| Venomrush | it doesnt have sticky feel | 20:01 |
| Nitial | any experience with zagg invisibleshields? | 20:01 |
| serenity | qwerty12: ah ok, but there is no option via gui it seems | 20:01 |
| qwerty12 | serenity: Kinda pointless, when you can use the volume keys | 20:01 |
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| serenity | qwerty12: ok, thanks | 20:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, yes, it does overwrite the eMMC if you flash the eMMC image. | 20:02 |
| Venomrush | "Nokia Italy has sent delivery confirmation for pre-orders this afternoon 3:30pm CET by mail ... Credit Cards have already been charged accordingly! Yuppieeee!" | 20:03 |
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| Venomrush | how does italy get it first? | 20:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nitial, I prefer the Boxwave. | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | they bitch more? | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 20:03 |
| Venomrush | random | 20:03 |
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| qwerty12 | Pressure from the Mafia | 20:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nitial, essentially scratch-proof, unlimited reapplications, good texture, good glare reduction. | 20:03 |
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| Venomrush | does Nitial give free replacement? | 20:04 |
| Venomrush | the only thing i like about invisibleshield is they give free lifetime replacement | 20:04 |
| Venomrush | BUT | 20:04 |
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| Venomrush | you need to send the old one back to them | 20:04 |
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| Shapeshifter | GeneralAntilles: did you ever notice any difference in sensitivity? | 20:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Shapeshifter, no. | 20:07 |
| Shapeshifter | I'm not used to resistive screens so I'll have to get used to it anyway. | 20:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Shapeshifter, big reduction in smudging, too. | 20:07 |
| Shapeshifter | mhh | 20:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just aim to tap with your fingernails instead of the pads. | 20:07 |
| Shapeshifter | yeah. I'm still growing fingernails | 20:07 |
| Shapeshifter | just for that. | 20:07 |
| Shapeshifter | >.> | 20:07 |
| Shapeshifter | I'm thinking about getting these http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310173919417 | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | You don't need a lot of nail. | 20:08 |
| Shapeshifter | GeneralAntilles: I have none ;) | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | If you chew, that's a problem. | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | But otherwise. . . . | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Shapeshifter, I strongly recommend the Boxwave. | 20:08 |
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| lardman|home | some options here for those who don't drink enough milk: http://www.fabparty.co.uk/acatalog/halloween-nails-noses-teeth.html | 20:09 |
| lardman|home | I think #22334726 would be particularly effective :) | 20:10 |
| Shapeshifter | lol | 20:10 |
| lardman|home | oops, chop off the 726 | 20:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just hire qwerty12 to do your tapping for you. | 20:11 |
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| * qwerty12 isn't a gigolo... | 20:11 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | I hear he also does taping. | 20:11 |
| lardman|home | but he's trying? | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | hm, chrome os announcement today | 20:11 |
| Flandry | that's a meaning of "tapping" i'm not familiar with :P | 20:11 |
| lardman|home | let your imagination run wild ;) | 20:12 |
| Flandry | erk | 20:12 |
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| GAN900 | Stskeeps, my apathy levels are absurdly high. | 20:12 |
| Stskeeps | GAN900: better to know the competition though | 20:12 |
| GAN900 | Meh | 20:13 |
| Venomrush | "nokia have advised that we will receive stock into our nokia retail stores to allow us to dispatch your n900 on the 3rd december." | 20:13 |
| Venomrush | from nokia online store UK | 20:13 |
| Stskeeps | they send it to retail stores first? :P | 20:13 |
| * GAN900 is really digging having rocker scrolling back in fBReader. | 20:13 | |
| SpeedEvil | Venomrush: no such mail for me. | 20:14 |
| Venomrush | SpeedEvil, me neither just copied from the forum | 20:14 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 20:14 |
| Venomrush | SpeedEvil, that guy ordered on the 1st Oct | 20:14 |
| SpeedEvil | 20 oct here | 20:14 |
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| Venomrush | 21st oct here | 20:14 |
| Venomrush | lol | 20:15 |
| Venomrush | we'll probably get it in a few hours | 20:15 |
| Stskeeps | Venomrush: 'nokiaretail.co.uk' | 20:15 |
| Shapeshifter | GeneralAntilles: did you ever try any others? | 20:15 |
| Shapeshifter | ha! chrome OS. | 20:15 |
| Venomrush | the email doesn't look too professional | 20:15 |
| Venomrush | looks like a rush email | 20:15 |
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| Stskeeps | Venomrush: nokiaretail looks like a mobilephonesdirect thing | 20:16 |
| cwong1 | Does Maemo 5 uses the Matchbox WM? | 20:16 |
| Stskeeps | Venomrush: which may differ from shop.nokia.co.uk | 20:17 |
| timeless | anyone else have ukeyboard offer an update which failed to work? | 20:18 |
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| Venomrush | Stskeeps, yes mate, mobilephonesdirect=nokiaretail but != shop.nokia.co.uk | 20:18 |
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| lardman|home | ah, the wonders of VB | 20:21 |
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| kirma | in .fi nokia has stated that they start "delivering" tomorrow (unfortunately probably delievered at earliest on monday) for preorders, selling in flagship store next friday and other retailers deliver to customers at earliest friday after that, per contract | 20:23 |
| Stskeeps | oh dear, chrome os is a cloud us | 20:24 |
| Stskeeps | os | 20:24 |
| Jaffa | Pretty obvious, really. | 20:25 |
| Stskeeps | yeah :P | 20:25 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Is there a good writeup? | 20:25 |
| Stskeeps | http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/19/live-from-googles-chrome-os-project-announcement/#comments | 20:25 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: Surely you did not expect more? I could tell, even by looking at that incomplete component list :) | 20:26 |
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| Shapeshifter | chrome OS is a joke | 20:26 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: true | 20:26 |
| Shapeshifter | but good for linux. | 20:26 |
| Khertan | Départ des entrepôts estimé Vendredi 20 Novembre 2009 <<< Estimated date for sending 20th November 2009 ... tomorrow | 20:26 |
| Mousey | uh | 20:26 |
| Shapeshifter | Khertan: wooo | 20:26 |
| qwerty12 | Shapeshifter: "OS" makes me crack up. | 20:26 |
| Shapeshifter | yeah :D | 20:27 |
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| fernando__ | mahr Posted Nov 19th 2009 1:01PMHighly RankedJudging by Google's other services, Chrome OS should be awesome. | 20:27 |
| fernando__ | lol engadget comments | 20:28 |
| fernando__ | but lame, was expecting more to be honest :( | 20:28 |
| Shapeshifter | chrome "OS" is probably also made by like 5 people | 20:29 |
| Shapeshifter | so, that's all there is. It's a distro with some google "apps" | 20:29 |
| Shapeshifter | but all I care it's linux and more people using linux means better/more drivers for everyone. | 20:29 |
| range | Where's my Chrome vim? | 20:29 |
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| qwerty12 | Ooh, Fuckin' A, Nokia. People: Please don't forget to umount your N900's eMMC. I just forgot, and I now get a device that is in a reboot loop | 20:32 |
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| ShadowJK | lol | 20:32 |
| ShadowJK | qwerty12, unmount it when? | 20:32 |
| Shapeshifter | qwerty12: what's this eMMC? | 20:32 |
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| ShadowJK | emmc is the 32gig memory chip | 20:33 |
| Shapeshifter | ah. | 20:33 |
| qwerty12 | ShadowJK: When done with it. I forgot to do so | 20:33 |
| qwerty12 | Grr, I'd expect weird behaviour when trying to use it, but a reboot loop is uncalled for | 20:34 |
| Shapeshifter | so, when updating the firmware (if that is necessary at some point in the future on a retail device) one needs to umount the eMMC manually once the update is done? | 20:34 |
| qwerty12 | Then again, /home's home is on the eMMC | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: what did you try to do? | 20:34 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: Copy a file to it | 20:35 |
| Khertan | lol .... ChromeOS ... is just a web browser ... they want to target NetBook ... the things you use most of the time when you travel... so without connect or slow one ... it s stupid | 20:35 |
| ShadowJK | qwerty12, ... | 20:35 |
| ShadowJK | qwerty12, over usb? | 20:35 |
| qwerty12 | Yep | 20:35 |
| ShadowJK | ah. | 20:35 |
| qwerty12 | Oh, I see I forgot to say I mounted it over USB. Sorry | 20:35 |
| SpeedEvil | init=/bin/firefox | 20:35 |
| ccooke | SpeedEvil: you'll need X in the kernel :-) | 20:36 |
| zash | compile firefox right into the kernel | 20:37 |
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| GeneralAntilles | SpeedEvil, lol | 20:37 |
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| * SpeedEvil remembers back in hte day doing X+browser+kernel+networking on a 1.44 floppy | 20:39 | |
| SpeedEvil | though it was lynx | 20:39 |
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| Nitial | lynx OS | 20:40 |
| Shapeshifter | right. Any clues why nokia decided to push firefox to the n900? | 20:40 |
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| Shapeshifter | and not something webkit? | 20:40 |
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| Shapeshifter | gecko is quite the hog, or at least it's always been on the desktop. | 20:41 |
| ShadowJK | uh | 20:41 |
| lardman|home | lcuk: ping | 20:41 |
| ShadowJK | Why would the make the switch when they've had it this long :) | 20:41 |
| ShadowJK | and already switched from opera once | 20:42 |
| Shapeshifter | ShadowJK: on the n8xx it's already been firefox? | 20:42 |
| ShadowJK | MicroB, like on N900 | 20:42 |
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| Shapeshifter | and I read there was "tear" for those, which some people preffered | 20:42 |
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| ShadowJK | I don't know if bundyo has made tear work on N900 yet :) | 20:42 |
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| qwerty12 | It's in Extras-devel :) | 20:43 |
| Shapeshifter | well, I strongly suspect webkit would run much faster on such weak hardware... | 20:43 |
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| * lardman|home curses his version of VB for not knowing about Short | 20:43 | |
| ShadowJK | Shapeshifter, it's faster on most things, but extremely slow on some things | 20:44 |
| Shapeshifter | it is? | 20:44 |
| ShadowJK | microb is more consistent :P | 20:44 |
| SpeedEvil | I will here note that a couple of years ago I was using FF1.5 on a PII/300 with 800*600 display, and 96M of RAM, and it worked just fine. | 20:44 |
| Shapeshifter | and it's even incorporated in Qt | 20:44 |
| Shapeshifter | So for nokia it would _now_ be ideal. | 20:44 |
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| ShadowJK | I suspect with tracemonkey, mozilla technology is taking the lead in speed agin | 20:45 |
| ShadowJK | again* | 20:45 |
| ShadowJK | Oh, tear's memory use is kinda unpleasant on Maemo4 | 20:46 |
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| Shapeshifter | tracemonkey is enabled in firefox >3.5 right? | 20:46 |
| Shapeshifter | from what I'm reading. | 20:46 |
| Shapeshifter | But midori and arora are both a lot faster then firefox, at least on my lap top. | 20:47 |
| Lupu | Is there any way to expose the OS over USB mass storage on the N900? | 20:47 |
| Shapeshifter | I mean, 4x faster for many pages actually. Both lack features, but the difference in speed is striking. | 20:47 |
| ShadowJK | it's mostly consistently using more memory than microb, and triggering swapin/swapout in tiny bits all the time... microb seems to just have fits of rage when it gobs up a chunk of memory and spits out again, which results in a short stall, after which it resumes full speed... tear's behaviour makes for frequent stalls.. | 20:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Shapeshifter: yes | 20:47 |
| ShadowJK | Lupu, not sanely | 20:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Shapeshifter: (tracemonkey) | 20:47 |
| Lupu | ShadowJK: Your selection of words just got me curious :) | 20:48 |
| Khertan | Lupu: use sshfs | 20:48 |
| Khertan | over network | 20:48 |
| Khertan | works weel | 20:48 |
| Khertan | well | 20:48 |
| Lupu | Khertan: The whole point of it would be to fix things if I manage to get a reboot loop | 20:48 |
| Lupu | (they're much too easy to get) | 20:48 |
| SpeedEvil | Lupu: there is no seperate 'mount via USB' chip | 20:49 |
| lardman|home | on n900? | 20:49 |
| SpeedEvil | Lupu: it's implemented as a gadget driver | 20:49 |
| SpeedEvil | Lupu: it's part of the OS | 20:49 |
| * Shapeshifter is watching top gear now. | 20:49 | |
| Lupu | SpeedEvil: True, but it has much lower requirements to boot into mass storage mode when you attach it to USB when the device is turned off | 20:49 |
| lardman|home | kernel still starts | 20:50 |
| lardman|home | I imagine, same is true for charging | 20:50 |
| Lupu | For example, I managed to get it into a reboot loop by messing with pulseaudio settings. | 20:50 |
| ShadowJK | Lupu, well, you'd have to run the OS from somewhere else... and then the OS isn't stored on a block device, it's on a MTD, so you'd have to find some kernel module to present it as a block device... and then it's jffs2, which doesn't work on block devices, so you'd have to, on the computer side, dump the entire image into your own filesystem, modify it, recreate the image, upload the image, and hope all this bubblegum and jeesusteippi knows how to writ | 20:50 |
| ShadowJK | e it back properly... | 20:50 |
| Lupu | Ah, and I suppose USB mass storage only works on block devices? | 20:51 |
| ShadowJK | oh sorry it's ubifs not jffs2, but same limitations... | 20:51 |
| ShadowJK | Lupu, exactly | 20:51 |
| Lupu | Alright, thanks. | 20:52 |
| ShadowJK | a bootmenu + boot from sd thing would probably be more sensible setup if you want the ability to unhose it :) | 20:53 |
| GAN900 | Shapeshifter, because WebKit was shit in 2006? | 20:53 |
| ShadowJK | provided you don't kill it during the installing of bootmenu and stuff.. | 20:53 |
| Shapeshifter | GAN900: possibly | 20:53 |
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| Shapeshifter | indeed it was | 20:53 |
| GAN900 | Shapeshifter, besides, WebKit and Gecko are pretty close these days. | 20:53 |
| GAN900 | Sorry, that was rhetorical. | 20:53 |
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| Khertan | Lupu: so yep a boot menu and a second os on the sd will be better | 20:58 |
| Khertan | Lupu: else keep near a desktop computer to reflash :) | 20:58 |
| SpeedEvil | Or just support booting over nfs-3g | 20:58 |
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| realitygaps | anyone have any idea how to get sound working in a chroot on n900? the old alsa method doesnt work as maemo seems to use pulse nowadays... | 20:59 |
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| Lupu | ShadowJK, Khertan: That certainly sounds interesting. Any recommended links on how to get started? | 21:03 |
| Lupu | Although I'll have to look into it later... | 21:04 |
| Lupu | but thanks in advance | 21:04 |
| Lupu | *AFK* :) | 21:04 |
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| aep | hm where did everyone get their n900 from? i can't find any place shipping it | 21:08 |
| SpeedEvil | nokia.co.uk | 21:08 |
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| SpeedEvil | but - no customers as yet have recieved them. | 21:08 |
| aep | yeah says "preorder" | 21:08 |
| SpeedEvil | Only ones out there are prerelease and loans | 21:08 |
| aep | ah! | 21:09 |
| aep | that might explain why people keep telling me the final version has some stuff fixed | 21:09 |
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| Khertan | http://share.ovi.com/media/Khertan.mymedia/Khertan.10002 <<< why i didn't have icon in the hildon.FileChooserDialog ? | 21:12 |
| sp3000 | url isn't quite public | 21:14 |
| sp3000 | not that I could answer your question, I just click at stuff randomly | 21:14 |
| qwerty12 | Khertan: "Hmm. This file is unavailable.There are two possible reasons for this. It's either been deleted from Ovi or made "private" by its owner." | 21:14 |
| qwerty12 | Hiya, yerga | 21:15 |
| Khertan | oups ... didn't find any .... public | 21:15 |
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| Khertan | hum don't know how to make it public | 21:16 |
| qwerty12 | Upload it elsewhere, then :) | 21:17 |
| sp3000 | I think it's per album | 21:17 |
| kalikianatoli | "This page requires an Ovi membership", not nice :) | 21:17 |
| qwerty12 | kalikianatoli: Yep... And I had to dig out my Ovi information to get to a page I'm not allowed to look at :) | 21:17 |
| kalikianatoli | heh | 21:17 |
| kalikianatoli | double fail | 21:17 |
| sp3000 | yeah, pick an album -> album settings | 21:18 |
| Khertan | qwerty12: yep | 21:18 |
| yerga | Hi qwerty12 | 21:18 |
| Khertan | http://yfrog.com/cascreenshot2009111920014p <<< why i didn't have icon in the hildon.FileChooserDialog ? | 21:18 |
| yerga | Khertan, I'd say it's a python problem | 21:18 |
| yerga | Khertan, it happens in my applications too | 21:18 |
| Khertan | yerga ? ah sorry didn't see your answer | 21:18 |
| Khertan | ok ... something listed in the pymaemo bugs ? | 21:19 |
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| yerga | I haven't seen any bug about it | 21:19 |
| Khertan | ok ... i ll create one so :) | 21:20 |
| yerga | ok, thanks | 21:21 |
| lmoura | Khertan, a minimal example will be nice :) | 21:22 |
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| Khertan | just the time to make a minimal example | 21:22 |
| Khertan | lmoura: of course ! | 21:22 |
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| yerga | there's a GtkWarning in the terminal output: "GtkWarning: Invalid icon size 0" | 21:23 |
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| yerga | but I don't know if it is the culprit | 21:23 |
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| wazd_ | CromeOS revealed, Google insanity confirmed | 21:24 |
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| kalikianatoli | Hm... so let's see how long my upload request will take.. | 21:25 |
| ShadowJK | it's possibly 5 or 10 years too early :) | 21:25 |
| yerga | qwerty12, I haven't said thanks for bug 5300 yet, so here you are: Thanks! | 21:25 |
| povbot | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5300 Support sending files via Bluetooth in file manager | 21:25 |
| wazd_ | ShadowJK: more like 500-1000 :D | 21:26 |
| qwerty12 | yerga: Thanks :) | 21:26 |
| ShadowJK | and 5 years too late, you want to wait for technology to catch up so that there's enough bandwidth to suppirt this kind of thing, but you also want to do it BEFORE turning evil | 21:26 |
| yerga | qwerty12, I have uploaded some docs to GoogleDocs from the filemanager through pixelpipe | 21:26 |
| wazd_ | ShadowJK: you really think that cheap affordable fast internet will be everywhere within 5 years? :) | 21:26 |
| yerga | qwerty12, everything worked fine | 21:26 |
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| ShadowJK | wazd_, I'm just going on previous experience of how bandwidth has doubled :) | 21:27 |
| qwerty12 | yerga: Awesome. From the File manager, it works fine, but with other apps... :) | 21:27 |
| wazd_ | ShadowJK: you in your appartments can have like 1GBit connection :) | 21:27 |
| wazd_ | ShadowJK: my connection at the country doubled too. 0*2=0 :D | 21:27 |
| ShadowJK | 2003 I had 10 megabytes, 2004 I had 100 megabytes, 2005 or so 64kbit/s unmetered, then it went up to 128kbit/s and 2 years ago to about 256kbit/s.. then another connection came and gave 1mbit/s :) | 21:29 |
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| Khertan | lmoura: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6254 | 21:29 |
| povbot | Bug 6254: FileChooserDialog didn't display files or folders icon | 21:29 |
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| johnsq | Hi | 21:30 |
| lmoura | Khertan, thanks | 21:30 |
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| Khertan | lmoura: for information : i'm using pymaemo-optify since 2 days and didn't notice lag or bug | 21:31 |
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| lmoura | :) | 21:32 |
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| Stskeeps | http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os | 21:34 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: how fast mer boots on mature PC btw? :) | 21:35 |
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| Stskeeps | wazd_: about as fast as ubuntu 9.04 | 21:35 |
| wazd_ | I have an idea | 21:36 |
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| Stskeeps | no, 0sec boot isn't sane | 21:36 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:36 |
| wazd_ | let's boot browser first and then everything else :) | 21:36 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 21:36 |
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| johnsq | Just display a login wallpaper, than is the user happy! | 21:36 |
| wazd_ | and google will be screwed :D | 21:37 |
| moo__ | isn't palm webOS all about booting the browser? ;P | 21:37 |
| wazd_ | moo__: kinda | 21:37 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: seriously, is it more possible than 0sec boot? :D | 21:37 |
| Stskeeps | of course all sorts of marketing tricks is possible | 21:38 |
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| wazd_ | Stskeeps: that's not marketing, it's a nice UX feature | 21:38 |
| fernando__ | "it's like chrome... but in os form" | 21:38 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: user can watch some pron before actual work :D | 21:38 |
| fernando__ | next it'll be pog form | 21:38 |
| fernando__ | and then the cycle will be complete | 21:38 |
| Venomrush | Ok | 21:39 |
| Venomrush | N900 is available in Italy mainly because 3 sim users there are unaffected. See bug report http://2.gp/ef7 | 21:39 |
| Stskeeps | wazd_: i bet i could sell a mer variant with instant porn access. | 21:39 |
| Venomrush | Comment 10 | 21:39 |
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| pwnguin | arg. why is the eyes widget so damn popular? | 21:43 |
| Jaffa | Anyone know of any success getting a Windows laptop to connect via BT or USB over the N900's data connection? | 21:43 |
| fernando__ | eyes are the window to the soul, surely that applies to maemo too | 21:43 |
| qwerty12 | fernando__: Eyes Widget is awesome =) | 21:44 |
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| Shapeshifter | "Fast boot: We have improved boot performance by removing a lot of complexity that is normally found in PC firmware" | 21:46 |
| Shapeshifter | _they_ have done it? | 21:46 |
| Jaffa | wazd_: Big technical problems, though: what about h/w detection? Difficult to browse wihout a network connection or display... | 21:46 |
| Shapeshifter | they take quite a lot of cred for what the linux community has made of linux lately. | 21:46 |
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| fernando__ | http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/user-experience hmm | 21:51 |
| fernando__ | sure is a browser, sure is | 21:51 |
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| wazd_ | Jaffa: you think it will take much to boot up display, touchpad/touchscreen and wifi? :) | 21:52 |
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| Shapeshifter | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTFfl7AjNfI lol from 3:05 what a joke | 21:52 |
| Jaffa | wazd_: I think it's not doing much more than that now | 21:52 |
| Shapeshifter | "4 seconds". from what was that supposed to be? looked like a wake up from suspend to me, to a login screen. any linux does that. | 21:53 |
| Shapeshifter | that was not a boot up. on most machines, even lap tops, you can hardly get by the BIOS is 3 seconds. | 21:53 |
| Shapeshifter | rip off. | 21:53 |
| wazd_ | Jaffa: how InstantOn is made then? :) | 21:54 |
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| courmisch | Jaffa: USB yes. BT is not supported in the sales software | 21:57 |
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| * Shapeshifter hopes the n900s for switzerland arrived together with the ones for italy in genoa | 21:58 | |
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| Jaffa | wazd_: Carefully controlling hardware, BIOS and software. i.e. not easily | 21:58 |
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| Jaffa | courmisch: Using PC Suite? Not sure I'll bother withe 32MB download, but handy to know. | 21:59 |
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| courmisch | Jaffa: it's just a standard USB ACM interface. You can use the Microsoft PPP dialer like in the old days | 22:03 |
| Jaffa | interesting | 22:05 |
| wazd_ | Jaffa: well, if you'll consider devices like SmartQ 7 - hardware can't change, so maybe just remember it on the first run and then make no "check"? Sorry if I'm talking stupid :D | 22:05 |
| ShadowJK | I would never install PC Suite or any equivalent thing from other manufacturers.. | 22:05 |
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| ShadowJK | When did windows gain native bluetooth stack btw? was it late XP or vista? I remember it was easier to "tether" with my phone over bluetooth with the native stack than with any of the non-microsoft stacks :) | 22:07 |
| qwerty12_N810 | ShadowJK: XP | 22:07 |
| * Jaffa has never seen a Windows XP with it, despite it supposedly being in SP2 | 22:08 | |
| alterego | It's in SP3 I know that for sure | 22:08 |
| alterego | As that's what I'm using a BT dongle in that previously required a shitty driver that didn't work at all. | 22:08 |
| alterego | Not properly anyway | 22:08 |
| Jaffa | wazd_: didn't the question talk in terms of PCs, but yes, that is one trick you can do. | 22:09 |
| wazd_ | Jaffa: well, laptops can use this trick too | 22:09 |
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| ShadowJK | Vista could connect perfectly to internet over Irda to my previous cellphone too, with 0 extra software :) | 22:10 |
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| * RST38h moos at wazd | 22:16 | |
| moo__ | ShadowJK: SP2 added BT support | 22:17 |
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| CoreFusion- | Haha, interesting size-comparison; The first S60 device from Nokia, 7650 vs. N900 --> http://i.afterdawn.com/storage/pictures/nokia_n900_vs_7650_2.jpg | 22:20 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Bleh, systeminfowidget: http://pastebin.com/d2e0b4d6f | 22:21 |
| kalikianatoli | looks like the least useful package ever :D | 22:21 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Hehe | 22:22 |
| * RST38h had 7650 | 22:22 | |
| lbt | kalikianatoli: you've not met scratchbox then? | 22:22 |
| RST38h | even programmed for it | 22:22 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | CoreFusion-: But the 7650 could recieve MMSes! | 22:22 |
| * qwerty12_N810 hides | 22:23 | |
| kalikianatoli | lbt, I'm actually having fun with it regularly :-/ | 22:23 |
| lbt | nm | 22:23 |
| RST38h | qwerty: Well...in a way | 22:23 |
| RST38h | it was a seriously buggy phone | 22:23 |
| qwerty12_N810 | I can imagine.. | 22:23 |
| CoreFusion- | qwerty12_N810: indeed, it is superior to N900 | 22:23 |
| kalikianatoli | lbt, fun as in "fun" btw, not that you think I somehow like that thing :P | 22:24 |
| * RST38h hears remote screams from tv, as yeti eats another poor chap | 22:24 | |
| RST38h | -1 | 22:24 |
| * lbt has become involved in a purification exercise wrt "the box" | 22:25 | |
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| * qwerty12_N810 wonders if the systemwidgetinfo maintainer is around: simply forgot $(DESTDIR) in Makefile | 22:26 | |
| * RST38h puts a random but relevant tmo nickname to a recently eaten chap | 22:28 | |
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| qwerty12_N810 | RST38h: From which "Why the fuck isn't my N900 here?" thread? | 22:28 |
| RST38h | qwerty: Oh, there is plenty of choice nowadays... | 22:28 |
| RST38h | I am missing our old inpatients dearly | 22:29 |
| * lardman|home hits the sack | 22:29 | |
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| fernando__ | like god 2.0, amazon has to deliver the nokia tablets to our moseses 2.0 just in time | 22:36 |
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| hrw|gone | ah. one thing | 22:52 |
| hrw|gone | can someone with recent firmware on n900 do one thing for me? | 22:53 |
| qwerty12_N810 | vhat? | 22:53 |
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| hrw|gone | 'dpkg -l *calendar*plpl' | 22:54 |
| hrw|gone | which revision it returns | 22:54 |
| qwerty12_N810 | 6.0+r7250+0m5 | 22:54 |
| hrw|gone | thx | 22:55 |
| hrw|gone | so Polish translation is OFFICIALLY fucked | 22:55 |
| hrw|gone | as I have same version in sdk | 22:55 |
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| hrw|gone | http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/files/2009/11/pic5.jpg | 22:56 |
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| PaulFertser | Nokia/trolltech/qt OT: isn't it fun, my friend spent helluva time trying to diagnose ./configure problems with the sources downloaded from ftp://ftp.trolltech.com/qt/source/ just because for whatever reasons all files there have braindamaged CRLF EOLs :( Works fine with "unzip -a" though but it's not exactly easy to guess. | 23:05 |
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| lbt | PaulFertser: use git :) | 23:06 |
| RST38h | why are crlfs a problem? | 23:06 |
| lbt | ftp is for windoze | 23:06 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: first of all, #/bin/sh^M is not a valid intepreter. | 23:06 |
| RST38h | ah | 23:07 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: and other stuff like that, try yourself. | 23:07 |
| RST38h | yea, got it | 23:07 |
| * RST38h kinda expected make to understand crlfs, but #/bin/sh^M thing is fucked | 23:07 | |
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| PaulFertser | lbt: (git) well... probably it's the best way but i hoped the devs can find some way to warn users. Not every Qt developer knows how to diagnose such nasty shell scripting problems. | 23:07 |
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| lbt | *nod* - worth mentioning in #qt - it could be a new thing | 23:09 |
| PaulFertser | RST38h: not only the intepreter line causes the problems, after fixing that other more mysterious issues surface. | 23:10 |
| PaulFertser | lbt: ok, will do. | 23:10 |
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| PaulFertser | lbt: they told me it's a feature, not a bug :) windows really needs that and *nix users are supposed to download .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 | 23:19 |
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| GeneralAntilles | http://promotions.newegg.com/Sweepstakes/NokiaN900/index.html?cm_sp=InfoCenter-_-NokiaSweeps-_-na | 23:19 |
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| javispedro | what? MicroB doesn't allow me to Take over the world? | 23:20 |
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| lbt | PaulFertser: makes sense.... what sane linux user uses ftp ? | 23:20 |
| javispedro | bah. Can't be! I'm always right! I want my N900! | 23:20 |
| PaulFertser | lbt: none of my friends are sane | 23:20 |
| Shapeshifter | what a silly questionaire. | 23:21 |
| SpeedEvil | meh - 'open only to legal residents of the 49 United States' | 23:21 |
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| javispedro | what would you expect? | 23:21 |
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| javispedro | if they ask "Does Maemo 5 use Gtk+ or Qt?" 95% would answer Qt | 23:21 |
| SpeedEvil | expected - but hope crushed. | 23:22 |
| fernando__ | First Maemo phone with Raw Computer Power(limit 5 per customer) | 23:22 |
| fernando__ | lol newegg | 23:22 |
| Shapeshifter | Mh. Maybe it's time to order the n900. | 23:22 |
| lbt | SpeedEvil: open only to legal residents of the 49 United States ??? | 23:22 |
| * fernando__ entered the sweepstakes, btw :3 | 23:22 | |
| SpeedEvil | lbt: the sweepstake | 23:22 |
| lbt | the survey has a sweepstake? | 23:22 |
| lbt | only open to the US | 23:22 |
| SpeedEvil | yes - win 3 n900 | 23:22 |
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| fernando__ | that video is new too, isn't it? | 23:23 |
| lbt | SpeedEvil:the survey sent to -developer ? | 23:24 |
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| wazd_ | http://neor.planet.ee/livejournal/media_browser.jpg <- back to NEXT? :D | 23:24 |
| * lbt is about to reply-all "Can you confirm that this survey has a sweepstake but us 2nd class, non-US people are not eligible to enter?" | 23:24 | |
| VDVsx | oh, 10 packages in the queue :( | 23:24 |
| VDVsx | busy times | 23:24 |
| SpeedEvil | oh | 23:24 |
| SpeedEvil | lbt: no | 23:24 |
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| SpeedEvil | http://promotions.newegg.com/Sweepstakes/NokiaN900/index.html?cm_sp=InfoCenter-_-NokiaSweeps-_-na | 23:24 |
| qwerty12_N810 | VDVsx: More like a slow autobuilder... | 23:25 |
| fernando__ | chromeos uses skydrive? lol | 23:25 |
| lbt | just checking :) | 23:25 |
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| VDVsx | lbt, worked for me :) | 23:25 |
| VDVsx | wazd_, is that crome OS ? | 23:26 |
| VDVsx | *chrome | 23:26 |
| lbt | <sigh> | 23:26 |
| wazd_ | VDVsx: yep | 23:26 |
| lbt | Q1 Which country do you live in? A : UK...... error.... must be at least 4 chars.... | 23:27 |
| lbt | plonkers | 23:27 |
| Shapeshifter | lol | 23:27 |
| lbt | "The UK" | 23:27 |
| qwerty12_N810 | lbt: "We Owned Your Ass" | 23:27 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Shapeshifter, surely, and Mozilla didn't make the browser, but a free N900 is a free N900. ;) | 23:27 |
| lbt | qwerty12_N810: "Original and best" | 23:27 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | Hehe | 23:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | lbt: The united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland. | 23:28 |
| fernando__ | http://promotions.newegg.com/Sweepstakes/NokiaN900/vid/player.swf?vcastr_file=MaemosoftwareNokia.flv&IsAutoPlay=1&IsContinue=1 | 23:28 |
| fernando__ | so what is that future crew window on the top left? | 23:29 |
| fernando__ | when the task switcher is first shown | 23:29 |
| javispedro | oh, that video is new. | 23:29 |
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| fernando__ | yeah | 23:29 |
| VDVsx | "Normally it takes about 15-30 minutes for the package to be processed." <- Lies :P | 23:30 |
| fernando__ | it looks like a star wars game lol | 23:30 |
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| Nitial | demo created by Future Crew for Assembly '93 demoparty | 23:32 |
| fernando__ | ah, thanks | 23:32 |
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| fernando__ | (loving the maemo marketing dept. choice in promo video music, btw) | 23:33 |
| * timeless visits Kamp Cafe | 23:34 | |
| timeless | (which closes promptly at 11:30pm) | 23:34 |
| timeless | speedevil: did you get an n900? | 23:34 |
| suihkulokki | hehe, someone from the scene in the marketing clearly | 23:35 |
| qwerty12_N810 | timeless: A picture of the sign, please | 23:35 |
| timeless | um, i don't have maemo recorder | 23:35 |
| timeless | the waiter person tried to send me to the (intoxicated) bar | 23:35 |
| timeless | this place is quieter and more comfortable | 23:36 |
| timeless | what's my bugs.maemo.org password? | 23:36 |
| kynky | secret | 23:36 |
| qwerty12_N810 | A sec... | 23:36 |
| javispedro | i<3safari | 23:37 |
| mza | where is my device! | 23:37 |
| mza | boooo! | 23:37 |
| qwerty12_N810 | mza: Next to me | 23:37 |
| * lbt pets his device | 23:37 | |
| timeless | mza: my device is on loan | 23:37 |
| Shapeshifter | you are all evil. | 23:37 |
| kynky | mza italy and usa are happy i thought | 23:37 |
| javispedro | mza: qwerty12_N810 is using it to gather dust | 23:37 |
| * lbt must write a "purr" app... | 23:37 | |
| timeless | it went to the usa w/o me | 23:37 |
| mza | they said it would ship next week:( | 23:38 |
| mza | why is everyone saying it shipped this week? | 23:38 |
| mza | so frustrating | 23:38 |
| kynky | mza, they always say that | 23:38 |
| mza | :-D | 23:38 |
| jhp | Hi everyone. Has anyone in the Netherlands allready received a N900 ? | 23:38 |
| Shapeshifter | jhp: no. | 23:38 |
| javispedro | has the N900 shipped already? | 23:38 |
| jhp | Or anywhere else in Europe ? | 23:38 |
| Shapeshifter | jhp: nobody has received one. | 23:38 |
| RST38h | javis: they just cancelled dpp orders | 23:38 |
| CoreFusion- | .. | 23:38 |
| RST38h | or, at least, put the money back into accounts | 23:39 |
| Shapeshifter | just relax. | 23:39 |
| qwerty12_N810 | jhp: Man, you should've gone to the Summit... | 23:39 |
| javispedro | RST38h: aaaaah you though you were going to make me have a heart attack, but NO! I read the news previously. | 23:39 |
| javispedro | and also didn't order it, so ... | 23:39 |
| javispedro | :) | 23:39 |
| timeless | iirc they had similar problems w/ n800/n810 orders | 23:39 |
| kynky | mza, two definitions of shipping, shipping to resellers, and shipping to ustomer is diff, nokia put an official statement it was released in usa this week, ppl in italy on maemo say there devices are being shipped | 23:39 |
| mza | have any of the maemo devs started working on on portrait mode?;) | 23:39 |
| qwerty12_N810 | timeless: You'd think "third time lucky", but no... | 23:39 |
| javispedro | someone even ordered the n800? how can someone order something that's not a phone!?! | 23:40 |
| mza | kynky, thx:) | 23:40 |
| kynky | mza, i thought they had | 23:40 |
| qwerty12_N810 | mza: If a developer wants it in their app, then yes (for their app) | 23:40 |
| mza | i know they acheived portrait mode on the N810 | 23:40 |
| kynky | aparntly portait version of web browser being worked on | 23:40 |
| mza | that's so bad assed | 23:40 |
| kalikianatoli | mza, I think several Extras apps will support it, but probably only browser and phone from the official apps | 23:41 |
| mza | i can deal with that | 23:41 |
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| mza | so f'n excited | 23:41 |
| timeless | fwiw, i'm annoyed | 23:41 |
| kynky | me2 | 23:41 |
| kalikianatoli | there's an issue with rotation performance, that will hopefully be resolved soon | 23:41 |
| kynky | excited and annoyed, lol | 23:41 |
| jhp | So, basicly it hasn't shipped yet ? | 23:42 |
| timeless | i have an n900 and nokia(usa).com won't offer me pcsuite for it | 23:42 |
| * Shapeshifter isn't able to work anymore and instead just sits around sipping tea checking the forums every couple of minutes and writing pointless things like this in IRC. Man... I sure hope I'll get the n900 in two weeks time or else I'll fall behind with work. | 23:42 | |
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| kalikianatoli | timeless, who needs that anyway? :P | 23:42 |
| qwerty12_N810 | timeless: With the PC Suite, one download fits all | 23:42 |
| Shapeshifter | jhp: no it hasn't. I'm guessing the devices are on trucks to distributors by now. | 23:42 |
| javispedro | is there a pc suite for mac either way? | 23:42 |
| kynky | Shapeshifter, set up live feeds :) for that instant update feeling | 23:42 |
| qwerty12_N810 | timeless: I was pleasantly surprised to find out it worked when I tried it in September, even | 23:42 |
| mza | so what's the RCA output like? will it do DVD quality? | 23:43 |
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| Shapeshifter | jhp: with italy already covered as the devices most likely arrived in genoa. just a guess. | 23:43 |
| Shapeshifter | but... | 23:43 |
| kynky | mza, if you call 480p dvd quality, then yeah i guess :) | 23:43 |
| mza | wow! | 23:43 |
| mza | that's not bad at all | 23:43 |
| Shapeshifter | Though... thiking about it, it probably didn't even ship by ship | 23:43 |
| Shapeshifter | that would've taken too long from korea. | 23:43 |
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| Shapeshifter | takes like 3 weeks or so from korea to italy. | 23:43 |
| mikhas | mza, actually watching vids on the device is quite enjoyable | 23:43 |
| kynky | zune does 720p, and creative zii egg phone does 1080p out | 23:43 |
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| mikhas | the high DPI makes it possible | 23:44 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Shapeshifter: FWIW, the N900 pre-prod. model I have is made in Finland | 23:44 |
| CoreFusion- | dvd video is usually 720/704×480 (NTSC) or 720/704×576 (PAL) | 23:44 |
| mza | oh | 23:44 |
| mza | hrm | 23:44 |
| kynky | the snes with wiimote on tv is good demo, bounce on tv, quak3 on tv, all on youtube for n900 | 23:44 |
| Shapeshifter | qwerty12_N810: I know. But I thought production is going on in asia. Would be a bit odd if it didn't. Especially as the device isn't even that expensive. | 23:44 |
| javispedro | korea iirc. | 23:45 |
| kynky | also n900 will be one of first with flash 10.1 | 23:45 |
| lbt | qwerty12_N810: mine is just "designed in finland" | 23:45 |
| mza | im hoping mlb.tv works | 23:45 |
| CoreFusion- | Production models are made in korea | 23:45 |
| mza | that would be SICK | 23:45 |
| PaulFertser | flash? N900 will support flash? :((( | 23:45 |
| kynky | it supports flash9.4 already | 23:45 |
| CoreFusion- | Nokia's so called beta production line is in finland | 23:45 |
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| kalikianatoli | btw Khertan, would you also consider removing the "close: yes no" dialogue? it breaks closing from the task switcher | 23:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | PaulFertser, please chill out on the zealotism. | 23:46 |
| kalikianatoli | or maybe conditionalize it | 23:46 |
| qwerty12_N810 | lbt: Label on this one says "Made in Finland" but that cost me the N900 label in the top-right corner | 23:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Normal people want to watch movies of other normal people doing stupid shit. | 23:46 |
| timeless | kynky: not a chance of flash 10.1 | 23:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless, they announced it for next year. | 23:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | It was the first device they demoed, too. | 23:47 |
| javispedro | yeah, well... | 23:47 |
| timeless | really? url? | 23:47 |
| kynky | timeless, already announced i thought, a few days ago, gettig same time as webos iirc | 23:47 |
| javispedro | vmware demoed vmware too. | 23:47 |
| fernando__ | they demoed it on an android device wasn't it? | 23:47 |
| timeless | vmware demod vmware for the n800 | 23:47 |
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| timeless | bah, no one tells me anything | 23:47 |
| mza | The MLB.TV Media Player is built on Adobe Flash Player and requires Flash Player 9.0.115 | 23:47 |
| fernando__ | (unrelated, but anyone here tried garnet VM on the N900?) | 23:47 |
| mza | woot | 23:47 |
| kynky | :) | 23:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, but they didn't announce a release. | 23:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless, they know you'll just try to make their lives more difficult if they do. *eg* | 23:48 |
| timeless | mza: we have something like 9 0 246 | 23:48 |
| mza | i hear it chokes playing hulu | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://blogs.forum.nokia.com/blog/alessandro-paces-forum-nokia-blog/2009/10/06/nokia-n900-running-flash-10.1-for-mobile | 23:48 |
| timeless | gan: was they nokia or adobe? | 23:48 |
| javispedro | the flash team is not known for their speed (amd64 flash anyone?) | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | mza, my Atom machines can't even play Hulu | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Adobe | 23:48 |
| PaulFertser | GeneralAntilles: it's not about being a zealot. Do you personally consider flash (and especially the way it's used mostly) a good _technology_. Good as _superior_. Not talking about free software/religious aspects. | 23:48 |
| timeless | mza: yeah, i tried hulu when i was stateside, it didn't work | 23:48 |
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| timeless | some of mtv did though | 23:49 |
| kynky | the n900 > * | 23:49 |
| timeless | the guy from mtv was impressed | 23:49 |
| Shapeshifter | PaulFertser: no, it's abysmal. Still, most people need it. Even me. And I hate flash. | 23:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | PaulFertser, I consider it a necessary technology to help sell open source to consumers. | 23:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | and thus make more opensource. | 23:49 |
| Shapeshifter | PaulFertser: there's no discussing flash. | 23:49 |
| Shapeshifter | or the neccessity of it. | 23:49 |
| mza | i wish hulu would create a low quality stream for things | 23:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3F2OpVWJCs may be this. | 23:49 |
| kynky | i think most ppl hate flash, but alot need it | 23:49 |
| mza | i think once more mainstream devices get flash, they will | 23:49 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Nope, wrong vid | 23:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which one is it. . . . | 23:50 |
| fernando__ | nah, they'll probably make a dedicated iphone app and charge for it :D | 23:50 |
| dmj726 | yeah...hopefully flash can be replaced with html sooner rather than later | 23:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | Aaaah, timeless, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pee3nT4bPw4 | 23:50 |
| Shapeshifter | dmj726: xml rather. | 23:50 |
| kynky | dmj726, blame apple and ms, for why the lag, ie dont support video tag, and apple dont support ogg video iirc | 23:51 |
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| dmj726 | most flash can be replaced with html 5 | 23:51 |
| Shapeshifter | dmj726: ah right. canvas | 23:51 |
| Shapeshifter | it's cool. | 23:51 |
| dmj726 | Oh believe me I do blame them | 23:51 |
| kynky | well most ppl use flash for videos, where flash isnt really needed, it just a bad universal container, and the other main us of flash i see is for ads | 23:52 |
| realitygaps | anyone else getting 'operation failed' a lot with the n900 camera? | 23:52 |
| Shapeshifter | by the way, did people get invited to the maemo summit? Who received a device and who didn't? | 23:52 |
| dmj726 | Windows and Mac are the only Operating systems that can't seem to ship with an html 5 / ogg enabled browser | 23:52 |
| realitygaps | Shapeshifter: everyone at the summit that didnt work for nokia got one I think | 23:53 |
| Shapeshifter | realitygaps: so, one could just pop over and get one for a year? >.> | 23:53 |
| dmj726 | Even Flash animation shouldn't really be presented with Flash | 23:53 |
| realitygaps | Shapeshifter: and it was open invitation anyone could sign up | 23:53 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Shapeshifter: 6 months | 23:53 |
| Shapeshifter | 6 months. | 23:53 |
| Shapeshifter | I see. | 23:54 |
| realitygaps | Shapeshifter, yep - but noone knew that when they signed up for the summit | 23:54 |
| Shapeshifter | mhhhm | 23:54 |
| realitygaps | so it was generally serious ppl heading to amsterdam i think | 23:54 |
| PaulFertser | kynky: flv is not flash i think. And it's supported by all modern players, so that's not a problem. Problem is that some think they need to ship shit (skype, flash etc) to the customers or else they won't buy otherwise perfect device. | 23:54 |
| kynky | dmj726, microsofts answer, silverlight, :( | 23:54 |
| Shapeshifter | PaulFertser: which is entirely justified >.> | 23:54 |
| dmj726 | silverlight is worse than flash | 23:55 |
| PaulFertser | Shapeshifter: probably | 23:55 |
| kynky | PaulFertser, its just that flash can be easily supported as embedded in browesrs, if i wanted to i can play flv in mplayer | 23:55 |
| PaulFertser | Shapeshifter: but it's too sad to admit | 23:55 |
| dmj726 | Sivlerlight works on barely anything I use. | 23:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | PaulFertser, you can't change the world overnight. | 23:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, although judging by some of the people who got devices there there were some silly ones mixed in, too. ;) | 23:55 |
| mza | i wonder if the device would be powerful enough to transcode flash | 23:55 |
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| kynky | the linux moonlight port of silverlight is way behind | 23:55 |
| dmj726 | an always will be | 23:56 |
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| javispedro | moonlight is not fully oss | 23:56 |
| dmj726 | since we can't exactly make it our own without defeating the point of moonlight (compatibility)...same situation as WINE | 23:56 |
| javispedro | so, forget about it on non x86 platforms | 23:56 |
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| dmj726 | ...so it'll always be catchup...and browser spoofing etc | 23:57 |
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| kynky | well silverlight is supposed to be used for ui on winmo7, and that targets arm architecture | 23:57 |
| dmj726 | kynky: moonlight | 23:57 |
| kynky | dmj726, my bad | 23:58 |
| dmj726 | Care to install windows mobile on the n900? | 23:58 |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: hope you werent referring to me :) yes there were a few people who came along to see the summit and got lucky, i know at least one in NL | 23:58 |
| kynky | but in a way if we get the vm working on n900, then in a way you have silverlight support | 23:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, no, not you. | 23:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | realitygaps, blogger types, mostly. | 23:58 |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: yep there were some media types around. but also a couple of randoms who just thought oh-that looks like a cool summit im gonna go as im in NL | 23:59 |
| kynky | dmj726, they got wince working and andrid working on n900 via vm | 23:59 |
| mza | how long before android is ported?;) | 23:59 |
| realitygaps | GeneralAntilles: some drupal people i met for example | 23:59 |
| qwerty12_N810 | realitygaps: How's the BBC iPlayer stuff going? /me has been missing his dose of Eastenders recently... | 23:59 |
| mza | android runs on the N810 | 23:59 |
| mza | dont see why it cant be ported to the N900 | 23:59 |
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