| AStorm | port access? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| AStorm | *and* other computation | 00:00 |
| AStorm | the idea is that it will allow to parallelize that other computation with screen updates | 00:00 |
| RST38h | 68000 | 00:00 |
| felipec | AStorm: otherwise ARM and DSP caches will not be coherent | 00:00 |
| RST38h | audio, timers | 00:00 |
| AStorm | felipec: they don't have to be. | 00:00 |
| RST38h | btw you are forgetting sprites | 00:01 |
| AStorm | sprites are clean moves in DSP space. | 00:01 |
| RST38h | clean moves? | 00:01 |
| RST38h | what about sprite priority? | 00:01 |
| AStorm | see, you abuse the DSP to be your Copper chip | 00:01 |
| felipec | AStorm: at some point you'll need to send some data to the DSP, that will require a cache flush | 00:01 |
| AStorm | sprite prio is precomputed | 00:01 |
| RST38h | AStorm: I can abuse a cat, but it does not mean it will bear my children | 00:01 |
| AStorm | felipec: true, some point | 00:01 |
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| AStorm | the idea is to make "some point" rare | 00:02 |
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| AStorm | and it will be rare enough | 00:02 |
| AStorm | actually, I don't need a cache flush, but a sync | 00:02 |
| RST38h | AStorm: I suggest you actually try implementing this :) | 00:02 |
| AStorm | RST38h: I will. :> | 00:03 |
| AStorm | but IMO it'll be more fruitful to move sound emu there first | 00:03 |
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| RST38h | That may well be true | 00:03 |
| RST38h | But Amiga has got pretty simple sound, 8 channels of wave audio or so | 00:03 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: some back door into the dsp: http://www.opencores.org/project,oc54x,overview | 00:04 |
| AStorm | RST38h: someone has to mix that | 00:04 |
| AStorm | and apply the necessary FIR filter | 00:04 |
| AStorm | (so that it sounds like amiga) | 00:04 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: http://dualist.stanford.edu/~ee265/labs/docs/mnemref.pdf | 00:07 |
| AStorm | :> | 00:07 |
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| AStorm | I knew I've seen it somewhere | 00:07 |
| AStorm | and http://focus.ti.com/lit/ug/spru375g/spru375g.pdf | 00:07 |
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| epilido | is there a way to search multiple terms with the and operator on t.m.o. when I tried say usb host mode. I get all instances of usb or host or mode. I would like to be able to search for multiple words and get specific results.... | 00:12 |
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| AStorm | spru374g is also on TI servers. | 00:12 |
| bobbyd | hi | 00:12 |
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| bobbyd | I've got the maemo 5 sdk, and I'd like to write a little app for the n900 that counts how much data I've transferred in a set time period, then disables the cellular modem when it hits a limit. It's to ensure I don't get charged too much based on the data plan I've got. | 00:14 |
| bobbyd | I thought it would also be nice to make a desktop widget that looked like a fuel gauge to show how much data I had left | 00:14 |
| bobbyd | does anyone have any pointers on getting started? | 00:15 |
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| bobbyd | I can write C++ and python | 00:15 |
| bobbyd | (and lots of other things, but I suppose they're the most relevant) | 00:15 |
| johnx | bobbyd, so you want pointers on how to count data transferred? or where to find the docs on making a widget? | 00:15 |
| bobbyd | yep, both :) | 00:16 |
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| bobbyd | and if it's possible to disable one type of network connection | 00:16 |
| johnx | that last part I don't know | 00:16 |
| bobbyd | I'll also finally be able to write an app that turns my ringer off during set time periods :) | 00:16 |
| johnx | you cound munge the users settings with gconftool maybe | 00:16 |
| AStorm | maybe over dbus? | 00:16 |
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| bobbyd | I've wanted to do that on my phone for years | 00:16 |
| bobbyd | ok | 00:17 |
| AStorm | Nokia seems very fond of dbus, you could check if there are some dbus control apis there in SDK | 00:17 |
| bobbyd | I'll have a poke about. What about the data transfer and widgets, should I just RTFM? :) | 00:17 |
| bobbyd | ok | 00:17 |
| johnx | for data flow...dunno if there's a maemo-specific way, but if it were me (from my shell-centric point of view) I'd run /sbin/ifconfig and parse the output | 00:17 |
| bobbyd | and is qt the preferred way to write stuff now? | 00:17 |
| bobbyd | ok | 00:17 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: nobody knows yet | 00:17 |
| johnx | gtk is "preferred" but qt is probably more future proof | 00:17 |
| AStorm | Maemo 5 is gtk | 00:18 |
| AStorm | but next one will likely be mostly qt | 00:18 |
| johnx | and there's some pretty good docs on making widgets, that can be found from the sdk page | 00:18 |
| bobbyd | ok, I thought someone said it's possible to write qt stuff on maemo 5 | 00:18 |
| bobbyd | ok | 00:18 |
| AStorm | what was the codename? Harmattan? | 00:18 |
| bobbyd | I'll check those out | 00:18 |
| johnx | and some HIG-type docs about widgets as well | 00:18 |
| bobbyd | cool | 00:18 |
| johnx | HIG: http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/019c2b31-3777-49a0-9257-970d79580756/Hildon_2_2_Widget_UI_Specification.html | 00:19 |
| bobbyd | thanks | 00:19 |
| johnx | maemo 5 sdk beta 2 (newest as of now, but there's a new release coming "real soon now"): http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_sdk/ | 00:19 |
| bobbyd | yep, installing that now | 00:20 |
| johnx | widget docs here: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Application_Development/Writing_Desktop_Widgets | 00:20 |
| bobbyd | I'm also going to port some opengl stuff I did, and hopefully write a nice flashy remote for squeezecenter | 00:21 |
| bobbyd | should be the perfect device for that | 00:21 |
| bobbyd | (the n900) | 00:21 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: make sure it works with OpenGL 2 ES | 00:21 |
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| bobbyd | I'm pretty sure it will, I think most of the stuff they chopped out in ES was useless crap like quad-buffer rendering | 00:22 |
| javispedro | AStorm: actually, I think the final device comes with both APIs (1 & 2) | 00:23 |
| bobbyd | but I should read the spec :) | 00:23 |
| javispedro | (actually 1.1) | 00:23 |
| AStorm | javispedro: :) | 00:23 |
| AStorm | oh. | 00:23 |
| javispedro | 1.1 & 2, I mean. | 00:23 |
| bobbyd | I'd like to get data out of the game I'm working on and write some widgets for that | 00:24 |
| bobbyd | but one thing at at time eh? I think the bandwidth monitor would be a simple thing to start with | 00:24 |
| * AStorm instead rewrites the sox resampler plugin for alsa... again | 00:24 | |
| * AStorm should port it to DSP just for fun | 00:24 | |
| * javispedro now has system wide bad quality equalizer :) | 00:24 | |
| AStorm | it's a mip-mapped fir filter after all | 00:25 |
| bobbyd | maybe I'll write a pointless visualisation of the data | 00:25 |
| bobbyd | I really want to see if zynadsubfx works well on the n900 | 00:25 |
| AStorm | the task DSP is extremely well suited for | 00:25 |
| felipec | somebody should port some video decoder from FFmpeg :) | 00:25 |
| bobbyd | and then see if my Korg nanokey will work with the USB port | 00:25 |
| felipec | to the DSP | 00:25 |
| AStorm | felipec: hmm. | 00:25 |
| bobbyd | what are the specs of the DSP? | 00:25 |
| AStorm | what about some scaler? | 00:25 |
| AStorm | or should we rely on GPU to do that well now? | 00:25 |
| bobbyd | does the flash port use it? | 00:25 |
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| bobbyd | GPU must be faster for scaling... | 00:26 |
| bobbyd | unless it draws too much power | 00:26 |
| javispedro | bobbyd: i don't know for sure. | 00:26 |
| bobbyd | hmm | 00:26 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: DSP is the same as in OMAP2 apparently | 00:26 |
| javispedro | of course, it's faster for "good quality" scaling. | 00:26 |
| bobbyd | I did some hacking on the PSP to run stuff on the media processor | 00:26 |
| AStorm | oh, no, it's not | 00:26 |
| AStorm | it's C64+ | 00:26 |
| AStorm | TMS320C64x | 00:27 |
| bobbyd | AStorm: *another* 600Mhz chip? | 00:27 |
| bobbyd | ahh :) | 00:27 |
| AStorm | omap2 has TMS320C55x | 00:27 |
| lcuk | yeah lardman was delirious with joy lol | 00:27 |
| lcuk | it has nicer byte format than the one in omap2420 | 00:27 |
| SaBer | bobbyd: I've heard zynaddsubfx is not very well coded (regarding it is supposed to be a real-time synth) | 00:27 |
| AStorm | lcuk: true :) | 00:27 |
| AStorm | but one important thing is that it's backwards compatible | 00:27 |
| AStorm | :) | 00:27 |
| bobbyd | SaBer: I'll have a look at porting it anyway, then probably just profile it and see what it's like | 00:27 |
| AStorm | from wiki: | 00:28 |
| AStorm | OMAP3430 - 600 MHz ARM Cortex A8 + PowerVR SGX 530 GPU + 430MHz C64x+ DSP + ISP (Image Signal Processor) | 00:28 |
| bobbyd | AStorm: so it's the C64+ ? | 00:28 |
| AStorm | OMAP2420 - 330 MHz ARM1136 + 220 MHz C55x DSP + PowerVR MBX GPU | 00:28 |
| bobbyd | wow | 00:28 |
| bobbyd | maybe I can use the DSP for the synth :) | 00:28 |
| javispedro | plus the IVA. | 00:28 |
| bobbyd | IVA? | 00:28 |
| SaBer | bobbyd: there's a bunch of LV2 plugins that are supposed to be better: http://home.gna.org/zyn/ | 00:29 |
| javispedro | image & video accelerator iirc. | 00:29 |
| AStorm | javispedro: it's called ISP | 00:29 |
| AStorm | ;> | 00:29 |
| javispedro | (they all sound like cpus to me) | 00:29 |
| AStorm | the problem is that I don't have the DSP bridge docs for OMAP3430 | 00:29 |
| AStorm | javispedro: they are | 00:29 |
| AStorm | but specialized ones | 00:29 |
| bobbyd | SaBer: hadn't seen that, thanks | 00:29 |
| johnx | and the SGX has some interesting twists | 00:29 |
| felipec | there's an IVA and a ISP... they are separate | 00:30 |
| johnx | tile based renderers are so cool :D | 00:30 |
| AStorm | felipec: hmm? funny. is IVA running PowerVR firmware or something? | 00:30 |
| felipec | AStorm: no, that's a separate chip :) | 00:30 |
| bobbyd | SaBer: I've done some ARM programming in the past, so hopefully it'll be possible to get it running well | 00:31 |
| lcuk | /core you mean - they are all on same silicon | 00:31 |
| lcuk | (so i understand | 00:31 |
| bobbyd | I'd love it if the nanokey would work, apparently it only draws 100mA, so it might | 00:31 |
| felipec | lcuk: right | 00:31 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: the DSP is not truly an ARM | 00:31 |
| bobbyd | right, but the CPU is right? | 00:31 |
| AStorm | yes, it is. | 00:31 |
| bobbyd | seems like a great device regardless | 00:32 |
| AStorm | with VFP and other extras | 00:32 |
| bobbyd | I'm ordering tonight. Does anyone know the official date they start shipping? | 00:32 |
| johnx | the OMAP3 is a tiny beast :) | 00:32 |
| Pavlov | ill take a snapdragon over omap3 any day | 00:33 |
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| johnx | Pavlov, any linux devices with a snapdragon in a decent formfactor yet? (ie, not a devboard) | 00:33 |
| johnx | failing that, any snapdragon-based devices with a linux port? | 00:33 |
| Pavlov | not that i know of ;/ | 00:34 |
| Pavlov | only production thing i've got is the toshiba tg01 | 00:34 |
| AStorm | Pavlov: yes, it's neat | 00:34 |
| Pavlov | and it is super fast | 00:34 |
| AStorm | except it eats more power | 00:35 |
| johnx | and my days of playing with things that have crappy linux support are in the past | 00:35 |
| AStorm | it won't scale down to N900-sized device | 00:35 |
| AStorm | unless they produce a clocked-down version | 00:35 |
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| AStorm | that's why there are no cell phones with this cpu yet | 00:36 |
| johnx | the i.mx515 also looks pretty interesting | 00:36 |
| johnx | wonder if it has 3D accell | 00:36 |
| Pavlov | AStorm: the tg01 is a cell phone (sort of) | 00:36 |
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| Pavlov | only marginally bigger than my iphone | 00:37 |
| * lcuk looks at n810, looks at n899.5 and looks at n900 and thinks WOW what an evolution | 00:37 | |
| Pavlov | n900 is nice, don't get me wrong ;) | 00:37 |
| luke-jr | wtf is N899.5? | 00:37 |
| AStorm | "sort-of" | 00:37 |
| AStorm | check the run time on that | 00:37 |
| AStorm | :> | 00:37 |
| lcuk | "nearly" | 00:38 |
| luke-jr | johnx: http://projects.powerdeveloper.org/project/imx515/774 | 00:38 |
| lcuk | but i cant update the software on it cos i need sdk libs from the beta repository | 00:38 |
| luke-jr | johnx: if there is 3D support, I hope to get specs ;p | 00:38 |
| johnx | luke-jr, well, get back to me when you do ;) it might convince me I want a netwalker more than a netbook | 00:38 |
| lcuk | you will never get specs | 00:38 |
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| luke-jr | johnx: reviews of PC-Z1 seem to suck | 00:39 |
| luke-jr | especially kb | 00:39 |
| Pavlov | the problem with both the mx51 and omap3 chips is their memory architecture is too slow | 00:39 |
| luke-jr | johnx: I'm planning to hack my dev board into a pseudo-wearable XD | 00:39 |
| Pavlov | if they could double it they'd be nice chips ;) | 00:39 |
| luke-jr | Pavlov: wtf? | 00:39 |
| lcuk | Pavlov, ? | 00:39 |
| AStorm | Pavlov: true. and you say that Snapdragon's is better? | 00:39 |
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| Pavlov | AStorm: yeah, much | 00:39 |
| johnx | luke-jr, yeah, think I'll take a crappy keyboard over a DIY in a wooden box | 00:39 |
| luke-jr | Pavlov: memory is too slow? | 00:39 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: not memory, bus. | 00:39 |
| AStorm | :P | 00:39 |
| * lcuk looks for places where its slow | 00:39 | |
| luke-jr | johnx: C760 thin-client? :p | 00:39 |
| johnx | luke-jr, not so much :P | 00:40 |
| lcuk | care to qualify that statement properly Pavlov | 00:40 |
| luke-jr | johnx: hm? | 00:40 |
| Pavlov | lcuk: yeah, its bus is pokey | 00:40 |
| johnx | luke-jr, as in: no interest | 00:40 |
| javispedro | and the tiny dcache doesn't help much | 00:40 |
| luke-jr | johnx: my plan is SL-C760 X server, with the rest hosting the real system | 00:40 |
| johnx | luke-jr, over what? wifi? | 00:41 |
| Pavlov | even the tegra arm11 chips have faster memory buses | 00:41 |
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| lcuk | define pokey - it runs a 3d composited x11 desktop with multitple apps running at fullspeed - which part is slow | 00:41 |
| lcuk | iphone manages 1 app + a menu | 00:41 |
| luke-jr | johnx: USB? <.< | 00:41 |
| Pavlov | im not sure what you're comparing | 00:41 |
| lcuk | well you say its slow | 00:42 |
| javispedro | lcuk: iphone is slower :) | 00:42 |
| lcuk | theres clear evidence its now | 00:42 |
| johnx | luke-jr, wow...great. all for the keyboard? | 00:42 |
| Pavlov | the iphone excluding the 3GS is also pretty slow | 00:42 |
| lcuk | not | 00:42 |
| luke-jr | johnx: XD | 00:42 |
| luke-jr | johnx: well, hopefully Sharp won't be the only ones to use i.MX515? | 00:42 |
| lcuk | i thought they had same chips now | 00:42 |
| Pavlov | no | 00:42 |
| lcuk | /similar | 00:42 |
| javispedro | the problem is that every day I tell myself "now this gadget, at 350Mhz/400Mhz/600Mhz, will finally be faster than my 333Mhz Celeron. | 00:42 |
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| javispedro | ". it never is. | 00:42 |
| lcuk | lol javispedro i always considered the 810 to be amiga rated (H) | 00:43 |
| Pavlov | lcuk: stuff is getting faster | 00:43 |
| johnx | luke-jr, not really directed at you, but if there's one thing I learned from the whole zaurus vs n8x0 situation it's: "It's the software, stupid!" | 00:43 |
| lcuk | and coded as if it was! | 00:43 |
| luke-jr | javispedro: what? | 00:43 |
| AStorm | lol | 00:43 |
| lbt | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXh_3_sT8Z4 | 00:43 |
| lcuk | it worked tho :D | 00:43 |
| Pavlov | and you can get away with doing a bunch now | 00:43 |
| AStorm | no, it's far more powerful than Amiga | 00:43 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: random ranting :) | 00:43 |
| luke-jr | johnx: no way, it's definitely the hardware. | 00:43 |
| Pavlov | but there are several chips out that are substantially faster | 00:43 |
| AStorm | it's probably comparable to some Pentiums | 00:43 |
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| luke-jr | johnx: the software is just KDE 4.3 :D | 00:43 |
| AStorm | including bus speeds | 00:43 |
| lcuk | hahahahaha lbt | 00:43 |
| Pavlov | i hope TI speeds up their memory bus | 00:43 |
| AStorm | yeah, they should | 00:44 |
| AStorm | that's the main bottleneck | 00:44 |
| Pavlov | yep | 00:44 |
| Pavlov | the chip otherwise is fine | 00:44 |
| johnx | luke-jr, we obviously have very different use cases | 00:44 |
| bobbyd | I think the n900 will be pretty good for a year or so though | 00:44 |
| ShadowJK | Although for users, the main bottleneck is RAM /size/, when they open up the 20th tab in the browser :) | 00:44 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: probably longer | 00:44 |
| johnx | ShadowJK++ | 00:44 |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: not if that user is doing video playback | 00:44 |
| lcuk | bobbyd, code round any roadblocks - that is the linux way | 00:44 |
| AStorm | :P | 00:44 |
| luke-jr | ShadowJK: PC-Z1 has 512 MB RAM | 00:45 |
| lcuk | the 810 had a slow screen | 00:45 |
| lcuk | i smashed it | 00:45 |
| AStorm | huh? | 00:45 |
| AStorm | why would you do that? | 00:45 |
| javispedro | ShadowJK: my laptop has 196MiB. It runs Eclipse. | 00:45 |
| AStorm | personally, I'd just replace the damned EPSON chip with something faster | 00:45 |
| johnx | AStorm, smashed the barrier | 00:45 |
| ShadowJK | I think he means he smashed the roadblock | 00:45 |
| AStorm | johnx: ahhhaha | 00:45 |
| lcuk | others will find ways to get round whatever bottlenecks on this platform | 00:45 |
| javispedro | (fast hdd swap partition compared to the slower sd swap helps here) | 00:45 |
| johnx | and the omap3 has already been *shown* playing 720P | 00:46 |
| AStorm | johnx: true | 00:46 |
| Pavlov | barely | 00:46 |
| AStorm | not barely, cleanly. | 00:46 |
| javispedro | with DSP help I think. | 00:46 |
| johnx | Pavlov, yeah, it wasn't even touching the DSP, IIRC | 00:46 |
| AStorm | yes. | 00:46 |
| AStorm | w/o DSP | 00:46 |
| ShadowJK | I'd say barely in real life :) | 00:46 |
| javispedro | johnx: a. | 00:46 |
| Pavlov | johnx: yep | 00:46 |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: oh yes, a dev preview more like | 00:46 |
| Pavlov | now try playing that video non-fullscreen inside an interactive app ;) | 00:46 |
| AStorm | javispedro: DSP help was unnecessary waste of power ;> | 00:47 |
| johnx | Pavlov, find me a gadget with a 720P+ screen :P | 00:47 |
| AStorm | it will be necessary only for h264 | 00:47 |
| AStorm | johnx: try that TV output | 00:47 |
| Pavlov | johnx: does my 9" netbook count? ;) | 00:47 |
| ShadowJK | It might be able to do 720p, but I wouldn't trust it to do 720p through layers of UI and compositing shite, and I wouldn't expect it to do 720p while running some monstrous interpreter for actionscript/javascript/whathaveyou | 00:47 |
| luke-jr | yeah, without a 720p screen, you're not REALLY playing 720p :p | 00:47 |
| johnx | AStorm, what, the 480P output? :P | 00:47 |
| javispedro | but decoding it. | 00:47 |
| lcuk | Pavlov, if an interactive app NEEDS that video at fullres its doing it wrong | 00:47 |
| AStorm | johnx: hmm, it's that low res? | 00:47 |
| lcuk | it was years before i could get fullscreen video on pc | 00:47 |
| AStorm | I meant that composite | 00:47 |
| lcuk | i remember quarter screen stuff | 00:48 |
| AStorm | that should be able to push 720p... maybe | 00:48 |
| johnx | AStorm, huh? composite, not component | 00:48 |
| ShadowJK | I mean the desktop compositing | 00:48 |
| lcuk | compositing adds lots of extra overheads | 00:48 |
| luke-jr | I don't use compositing on my desktop machine. | 00:48 |
| luke-jr | it's useless cruft so far | 00:48 |
| AStorm | lcuk: mostly in memory use | 00:49 |
| ShadowJK | It adds lots of bandwidth requirements too | 00:49 |
| lcuk | AStorm, no, in more than memory | 00:49 |
| felipec | ShadowJK: the video is rendered through an overlay... the UI has nothing to do with that | 00:49 |
| AStorm | yes, each visible update goes to some back buffer | 00:49 |
| Pavlov | yeah | 00:49 |
| felipec | the DSP is quite capable of 720p... you just need the right codecs | 00:49 |
| AStorm | invisible as well | 00:49 |
| lcuk | then is transfered to the pvr and then transformed and sent out | 00:49 |
| AStorm | felipec: heck, you don't even need the right codecs | 00:49 |
| bobbyd | think I'll buy two n900's :) | 00:49 |
| ShadowJK | felipec, even with the compositing effects? On regular desktop overlay isn't used with compositing :/ | 00:49 |
| bobbyd | one for my wife too | 00:50 |
| Pavlov | bobbyd: you should | 00:50 |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: no idea if the bus is fast enough to allow textured video | 00:50 |
| bobbyd | I wonder if skype video, or ekiga would work well enough to use regularly | 00:50 |
| luke-jr | hmm | 00:50 |
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| AStorm | if it is... then compositing it might work | 00:50 |
| lcuk | ShadowJK, depends on which system you are using for compositing, most will allow video in the cube - but it depends on which render pathway used | 00:50 |
| bobbyd | I suppose ekiga has more chance of being ported well | 00:50 |
| felipec | ShadowJK: we are not doing anything fancy with the video like compiz | 00:50 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: yes, it has | 00:50 |
| luke-jr | how hard would it be to get my N810 to hijack whatever random MAC is already authenticated to an open wifi network? :p | 00:50 |
| ShadowJK | felipec, oh ok | 00:51 |
| bobbyd | but people are lazy, as the 1000 bad emulators on the PSP show :) | 00:51 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: or pidgin's v&v | 00:51 |
| luke-jr | just for a simple UDP xmit | 00:51 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: easy | 00:51 |
| bobbyd | AStorm: oh yeah :) | 00:51 |
| luke-jr | eg, if I want to xmit my lat/lon every 5 seconds over DNS :p | 00:51 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: really? | 00:51 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: but the contacts app does that already (telepathy) | 00:51 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: yes, try arping | 00:52 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: I'm thinking just pcap-inspect what it sees, and hijack the first client | 00:52 |
| luke-jr | ... | 00:52 |
| bobbyd | AStorm: it does pidgin v&v? | 00:52 |
| AStorm | I did that to hijack MACs over wifi | 00:52 |
| AStorm | bobbyd: no, but pidgin also uses telepathy for v&v | 00:52 |
| luke-jr | arping is for hajacking IPs to your MAC | 00:52 |
| bobbyd | ahh | 00:52 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: or the other way around | 00:52 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: I mean spoof the MAC of some already-connected client | 00:52 |
| AStorm | you ping the other IPs | 00:52 |
| bobbyd | so it's got some kind of video chat that's not skype | 00:52 |
| AStorm | and get the reply with macs | 00:52 |
| luke-jr | to skip the whole auth+DHCP | 00:52 |
| bobbyd | that's really great | 00:52 |
| bobbyd | this is just getting better for me :D | 00:52 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: I did that myself. | 00:52 |
| AStorm | to "borrow" a few external IPs in our uni net | 00:53 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: I mean automated. | 00:53 |
| AStorm | arpinged the ip range and received MACs | 00:53 |
| luke-jr | so if I'm in range for 500ms, it can xmit an update | 00:53 |
| AStorm | waited for one to go down | 00:53 |
| RST38h | RST38h 3 : VAX 0 | 00:53 |
| javispedro | go RST! | 00:53 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: it's scriptable | 00:53 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: what is? :p | 00:53 |
| AStorm | still, if you could get kismet running... | 00:53 |
| bobbyd | am I right in thinking the n900 can act as a USB host for devices that draw 100mA or less? | 00:53 |
| johnx | RST38h, VGBA for the VAX? | 00:53 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: arping | 00:53 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: kismet tends to require monitor mode | 00:54 |
| RST38h | ok, until I fall asleep, I owe javis some code | 00:54 |
| johnx | bobbyd, no, that's incorrect | 00:54 |
| luke-jr | which prevents xmit altogether I think | 00:54 |
| ShadowJK | bobbyd, current info says no | 00:54 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: not for basics. | 00:54 |
| RST38h | johnx: Kinda more advanced really | 00:54 |
| luke-jr | oh | 00:54 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: which is receiving packets | 00:54 |
| johnx | seems like no usb host on the n900 | 00:54 |
| javispedro | RST38h: i'm going to fall sleep soon, so if you want to sent me something, better use email | 00:54 |
| AStorm | johnx: huh? check kernel driver for the USB controller. | 00:54 |
| AStorm | it's still there. | 00:54 |
| RST38h | ok | 00:54 |
| johnx | AStorm, check maemo-developers | 00:55 |
| AStorm | it's dual-mode | 00:55 |
| bobbyd | johnx: I thought it supported this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_On-The-Go | 00:55 |
| timeless | out of the box usbotg is proably not exposed | 00:55 |
| bobbyd | hmm | 00:55 |
| ShadowJK | AStorm: | 00:55 |
| ShadowJK | <lbt> http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020828.html | 00:55 |
| ShadowJK | <lbt> http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020830.html | 00:55 |
| lbt | ShadowJK: you missed the next line I posted | 00:55 |
| timeless | not certain | 00:55 |
| johnx | timeless, thoughts about whether one could work around the problems in software? | 00:56 |
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| timeless | i'd assume so | 00:56 |
| AStorm | bla bla bla | 00:56 |
| johnx | ah | 00:56 |
| AStorm | not hardware limitation | 00:56 |
| bobbyd | hmm | 00:56 |
| johnx | I retract my statement | 00:56 |
| AStorm | just laziness in testing | 00:56 |
| timeless | remember, i'm not an expert in the area | 00:56 |
| AStorm | they hit some problems likely and just didn't have the time to correct them | 00:56 |
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| javispedro | yeah. good luck finding the proper non-standard cable | 00:57 |
| * javispedro sighs | 00:57 | |
| SpeedEvil | It's available on specialist websites | 00:57 |
| AStorm | javispedro: non-standard? USB OTG is standard. | 00:57 |
| timeless | iirc the strings are present but the path is disabled | 00:57 |
| AStorm | timeless: hmm :) | 00:57 |
| javispedro | AStorm: but basically -devels tells us it's not going to be "standard" OTG. | 00:57 |
| ShadowJK | lbt: "fuck"? | 00:57 |
| johnx | javispedro, micro b to host a + female host a to female host a | 00:57 |
| AStorm | javispedro: no. the port is OTG | 00:57 |
| AStorm | just the chip is set in client mode | 00:58 |
| javispedro | AStorm: how do you know? you seem to contradict qgil. | 00:58 |
| lbt | ShadowJK: well, I have spent all day on a PUSH project assuming a 2009 consumer 'computer' can do usb host mode | 00:58 |
| AStorm | javispedro: qgil said there's no OTG *now* | 00:58 |
| AStorm | because they hit issues w/ USB chip | 00:58 |
| lcuk | you have spent the day hacking on a control module you had to hand | 00:58 |
| SpeedEvil | No OTG now may mean that the required hardware isn't there. | 00:58 |
| johnx | lbt, well you know what they say about people who assume things ... | 00:58 |
| SpeedEvil | It needs a couple more resistors or something. | 00:59 |
| AStorm | not really even | 00:59 |
| javispedro | AStorm: yes it may. | 00:59 |
| AStorm | I bet they connected everything ok | 00:59 |
| RST38h | javis: Is ARM SDT syntax ok? | 00:59 |
| SpeedEvil | In the absence of a positive statement that USB host mode works. | 00:59 |
| AStorm | it'd be crazy to break the design | 00:59 |
| * javispedro was doing things in Palm T|X | 00:59 | |
| SpeedEvil | It's not breaking the design. | 00:59 |
| ShadowJK | But does it mean OTG wont work, that is, OTG adapters wont work... does it also mean that it wont work with F-F adapter? | 00:59 |
| AStorm | because they hit a problem while developing USB chip driver | 00:59 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, if they were planning on having it working, right up until the end, it's probably cheaper to keep the same board design | 00:59 |
| javispedro | RST38h: can gnu as compile it? | 00:59 |
| javispedro | s/compile/assembly | 01:00 |
| RST38h | javis: Ok, no ARM SDT syntax | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: indeed - it depends when the decision came - and if the required fix involved not populating components forex. | 01:00 |
| timeless | board designs don't change often- especially not late | 01:00 |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: yes, it means OTG won't work until you fix the kernel | 01:00 |
| timeless | *faiu | 01:00 |
| timeless | afaiu | 01:00 |
| ShadowJK | AStorm, I don't give a shit about OTG | 01:00 |
| AStorm | at least that's what I can see. | 01:00 |
| javispedro | AStorm: why do you believe it's a kernel bug? it may be as well a udc bug. | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | timeless: Sure - not populating pullup resistors and ... is free though. | 01:00 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, I gather the required fix was like the N800: "You can't use an 'A' socket or call it USB-OTG" | 01:00 |
| * javispedro wouldn't be surprised | 01:00 | |
| lbt | community kernel hack to enable host mode and not be 'usb certified' | 01:01 |
| lbt | ? | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | If the hardware is there - sure. | 01:01 |
| AStorm | lbt: something like that, yes | 01:01 |
| johnx | lbt, give it 80% odds, and hope they can get kexec working :) | 01:01 |
| AStorm | since the kernel driver has the support apparently | 01:01 |
| lcuk | timeless, wouldnt a board change require a new rx number | 01:01 |
| lbt | kexec is enabled - I saw that | 01:01 |
| AStorm | not sure if that support works, I don't own an N900 | 01:01 |
| timeless | johnx: afaik the n800 was never going to have a micro port | 01:01 |
| RST38h | javis: Email address? | 01:01 |
| timeless | lcuk: dunno | 01:02 |
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| johnx | timeless, fair enough, but what I'm saying is that the USB host stuff is populated anyways | 01:02 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: you may not require any board changes in some cases, simply not put some components on. | 01:02 |
| * lcuk nods | 01:02 | |
| AStorm | what I suspect is that the kernel driver had some bug and they lacked time to iron it out | 01:02 |
| RST38h | Email address, javispedro, quick, for I am already sleep typing | 01:02 |
| ShadowJK | Maybe the fix for USB host mode required a board change, and it wasn't done | 01:02 |
| AStorm | so instead set it to client mode | 01:02 |
| * timeless is listening to live guitar music | 01:02 | |
| AStorm | that maemo-developers post sure sounds like that | 01:03 |
| timeless | if the right people wrote there, i'd trust them | 01:03 |
| SpeedEvil | To quote from the second - [one of the requirements of the USB peeps] One of them being that the certification with A connector can be passed only if full functionality is provided by the SW. | 01:03 |
| bobbyd | so it's opengl es 1.1? | 01:03 |
| timeless | i just don't read that list | 01:03 |
| johnx | AStorm, that's the way it reads to me too | 01:03 |
| javispedro | bobbyd: I don't have a device, but: there is ogles v2 support _for sure_, and then I believe there's ogles v1.1 support _too_. | 01:04 |
| johnx | bobbyd, I know there is ES 2 drivers, I don't know if there are ES 1.1 drivers | 01:04 |
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| SpeedEvil | So it couldn't be done in the timescale - as the software wasn't there. This would have meant a connector change at that time AIUI. | 01:04 |
| RST38h | javis: Sent. | 01:04 |
| javispedro | RST38h: ack | 01:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless, Igor. | 01:05 |
| SpeedEvil | Which implies to me there has been one board rev since the decision. But I could be completely wrong. | 01:05 |
| bobbyd | OGL ES 2 is all about having a programmable pipeline, so it'll be interesting to get a "glxinfo" from the n900 :) | 01:05 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, a last minute board change to save a couple cents on a $600 non-mainstream device? | 01:06 |
| timeless | bobbyd: how do i get that? | 01:06 |
| AStorm | hm, so to use host mode, we'd need a hacked cable | 01:06 |
| johnx | I don't really buy it | 01:06 |
| johnx | AStorm, at the very least | 01:06 |
| johnx | or "non-standard" connectors | 01:06 |
| AStorm | yes yes | 01:06 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: I read that as they needed to change the connector they were considering for usb-host | 01:06 |
| AStorm | :) | 01:06 |
| ShadowJK | AStorm, shouldn't a F-F adapter at the end of the included cable work? | 01:07 |
| bobbyd | timeless: just run "glxinfo" from a terminal if it's installed | 01:07 |
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| AStorm | ShadowJK: no, the other side won't detect the USB host | 01:07 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, ah, I agree with you there | 01:07 |
| timeless | it isn't in path | 01:07 |
| ShadowJK | AStorm, but it works fine on N810 with usbcontrol? | 01:07 |
| AStorm | N810 has a different setup | 01:07 |
| javispedro | bobbyd: glx and opengles don't mix | 01:07 |
| ShadowJK | I mean, to me it sounds exactly like the detection is what has been removed | 01:07 |
| AStorm | you will be able to force set the host mode as well I think | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: Hopefully it's at the moment at worst not providing power and needing a wierd cable. Rather than not being able to work at all. | 01:08 |
| AStorm | yes. | 01:08 |
| bobbyd | javispedro: ah, ok, then I don't know how to get a list of device caps | 01:08 |
| johnx | it's the same situation as the N800 | 01:08 |
| javispedro | bobbyd: opengles uses egl. | 01:08 |
| bobbyd | javispedro: yep, I get that now | 01:08 |
| AStorm | very similar indeed, johnx | 01:08 |
| ShadowJK | N800 also didn't provide power? | 01:08 |
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| johnx | SpeedEvil, I bet it provides the power and doesn't need any internal mods | 01:08 |
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| AStorm | ShadowJK: exactly that | 01:08 |
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| GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK, N800 provided 100mA | 01:08 |
| ShadowJK | Maybe you're thinking of 770? | 01:08 |
| johnx | feature I want to see for t.m.o: wagering karma | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: Possibly. Looks like I'm not going to be able to get one till the n920 though, so it doesn't matter so much for me :/ | 01:08 |
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| timeless | 770 required a hacked hub | 01:09 |
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| AStorm | anyway. what I need is the device itself | 01:09 |
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| AStorm | then I could check it | 01:09 |
| timeless | powered hub | 01:09 |
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| ShadowJK | timeless, one that supplied power in both directions? I think that's a standard feature of chinese hubs ;) | 01:09 |
| AStorm | barring that, schematics ;p but this might be much harder to come by | 01:09 |
| AStorm | all that NDA stuff | 01:09 |
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| timeless | really? heh | 01:09 |
| AStorm | non-standard | 01:09 |
| AStorm | I had a hub like that which had a switch to enable such behavior | 01:10 |
| ShadowJK | timeless, yeah. I had huge problems finding a hub that DIDN'T do it. | 01:10 |
| lbt | AStorm: This was the point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPXyES0-9-Q | 01:10 |
| timeless | lol | 01:10 |
| ShadowJK | Needless to say, when I switched off my PC, the usb hub was trying to power the entire +5V bus of the PC. It burned itself out in a few days :) | 01:10 |
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| * timeless rotfl | 01:10 | |
| AStorm | lbt: what is this thing? | 01:11 |
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| AStorm | lbt: port checker? | 01:11 |
| lbt | the board? | 01:11 |
| timeless | quality, that :) | 01:11 |
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| lbt | no, it's a usb I/O board | 01:11 |
| ShadowJK | It's also fun to see people commenting on cheap powered hubs on Amazon.. "hey when I connect this to my PC the Fan on my graphics card starts spinning even if computer is off? plz help" | 01:11 |
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| AStorm | lbt: mhm | 01:11 |
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| AStorm | so I guessed almost right :) | 01:12 |
| lbt | it makes it easy for us SW types to interface with electronics | 01:12 |
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| AStorm | that should be possible in client mode if you squint hard enough | 01:12 |
| AStorm | and force the kernel a bit | 01:12 |
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| lbt | AStorm: actually : http://mer-l-in.blogspot.com/2009/09/want-to-push-need-kickstart.html | 01:12 |
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| AStorm | heh | 01:14 |
| AStorm | what kind of pointlessness is this? | 01:14 |
| lbt | gee thanks. | 01:15 |
| AStorm | well, it looks fun | 01:15 |
| AStorm | but otherwise pointless | 01:15 |
| AStorm | :) | 01:15 |
| lbt | err | 01:15 |
| lbt | having a computer able to switch switches? | 01:15 |
| lbt | the basis of all computer controlled automation? | 01:15 |
| lbt | pointless? | 01:15 |
| AStorm | naaah | 01:15 |
| AStorm | but having N900 do that? wasteful. | 01:16 |
| lbt | ah, but plugging it into a speak-n-spell? | 01:16 |
| lbt | that's sane? | 01:16 |
| lbt | http://blogs.nokia.com/pushn900/ | 01:16 |
| lcuk | it sends text messages | 01:16 |
| javispedro | building a k.i.t.t. clone is pointfull enough. always. | 01:16 |
| lcuk | the radio one has real practical benefits | 01:17 |
| lbt | javispedro: absolutely | 01:17 |
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| lcuk | it allows recv a text message, query last.fm use real radio to transmit music | 01:17 |
| johnx | I want my device to start the coffee whenever my wakeup alarm goes off | 01:17 |
| lcuk | from a simple - look incar use will work | 01:17 |
| lcuk | its a kickass start | 01:17 |
| javispedro | I just want it not try to kill me. | 01:17 |
| javispedro | a, and also manage my calendar. | 01:18 |
| lbt | hmm lcuk another idea... | 01:18 |
| lbt | n900 controlled car... | 01:18 |
| lbt | real car | 01:18 |
| * javispedro hides | 01:18 | |
| wazd | n900 ISS :D | 01:18 |
| bobbyd | rockets | 01:18 |
| lcuk | KITT for reall | 01:18 |
| * javispedro though the webserver for a moment | 01:18 | |
| timeless | k.a.r.r. | 01:18 |
| bobbyd | got to be rockets | 01:18 |
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| lcuk | ejector seat | 01:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, coffee makers with internal clocks are cheap. ;) | 01:19 |
| timo2 | how about something a tad simpler like automatic hdr capture for the camera | 01:19 |
| lcuk | and turbo boost | 01:19 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, nah, but I get up at *different* times each day | 01:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah | 01:19 |
| AStorm | lbt: now THAT's more like it | 01:19 |
| AStorm | lbt: I'm all for making N900 into a car diagnostic tool | 01:19 |
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| AStorm | lbt: btw, did you manage to control the speech synth in Speak&Spell? | 01:20 |
| mavhk | I want a device that works out what time to wake me up based on my appointment calendar | 01:20 |
| lbt | diagnostic? I was going to connect that usb controller to the electronic throttle on a supercharged Jag | 01:20 |
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| AStorm | lbt: that might be actually easier | 01:20 |
| johnx | AStorm, I actually got a borrowed netbook hooked up at one point, but it turns out my car doesn't emit anything except "CEL" codes | 01:20 |
| lbt | AStorm: that's not my speak'n'spell | 01:20 |
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| AStorm | johnx: hehe | 01:20 |
| lbt | they got a pro HW dev to do that | 01:20 |
| johnx | it was nice to see my car isn't broken at least...but still | 01:21 |
| AStorm | lbt: ... | 01:21 |
| AStorm | ffs | 01:21 |
| AStorm | they could've made an N900 controlled car just as easily | 01:21 |
| johnx | hmm, what might be more fun is a "ghost" speak and spell | 01:21 |
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| lbt | AStorm: yeah, but that's not what they want inside their flagship stores saying "hacker toy" | 01:22 |
| AStorm | hehehehe | 01:22 |
| lbt | outside maybe... | 01:22 |
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| AStorm | now *that* would be quite a trick | 01:22 |
| AStorm | make a car that has the UI from one of those sci-fi movies | 01:22 |
| johnx | ever seen the grand challenge? | 01:22 |
| AStorm | with routing and whatnot | 01:22 |
| AStorm | johnx: I did. | 01:22 |
| johnx | dunno if the n900 has the guts for it, but it'd certainly make a good remote :D | 01:23 |
| johnx | set way points on a neat little scrolling map | 01:23 |
| AStorm | sure it has | 01:23 |
| johnx | (I mean I'm sure it has the guts to be a remote) | 01:23 |
| AStorm | driving a car requires suprisingly little CPU power | 01:23 |
| johnx | but not to be the main onboard computer for one of those things | 01:23 |
| AStorm | but it requires very good realtime capabilities instead | 01:24 |
| johnx | image analysis? lidar interpretation? | 01:24 |
| AStorm | and some additional sensors | 01:24 |
| AStorm | lidar and radar | 01:24 |
| lbt | BFG scheduler... | 01:24 |
| lbt | practically RT | 01:24 |
| AStorm | maybe doppler can be used. | 01:24 |
| johnx | AStorm, uh huh. I'll believe it when I see it | 01:25 |
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| AStorm | johnx: not as hard as you'd think | 01:25 |
| AStorm | the real challenge is making the car run w/o those sensors | 01:25 |
| AStorm | on pure optical and acoustic data | 01:25 |
| AStorm | :> | 01:25 |
| johnx | i guess that's why everyone who entered the grand challenge did fantastically on their first try | 01:25 |
| AStorm | no, they just coded in Java. | 01:25 |
| AStorm | :P | 01:25 |
| AStorm | really, one team had their robot overload its memory | 01:26 |
| AStorm | with recognized objects | 01:26 |
| AStorm | talk about poor coding | 01:26 |
| javispedro | you see poor coder, i see the language still could do better. | 01:26 |
| javispedro | (start the flame :D ) | 01:27 |
| AStorm | true. | 01:27 |
| AStorm | anyway, the problem is that they're driving over flat surface with almost no guidance | 01:27 |
| AStorm | now, we have a GPS in N900 | 01:27 |
| AStorm | :P | 01:27 |
| johnx | they could make as many waypoints as they wanted | 01:27 |
| johnx | and yes, I think they had GPS | 01:27 |
| AStorm | so we get accurate enough position data if we combine this with some extra lidar/radar/doppler sensors | 01:28 |
| AStorm | johnx: so what was the actual problem? avoiding rocks? | 01:28 |
| AStorm | ;p | 01:28 |
| johnx | AStorm, you tell me, since you seem to think it's so easy :P | 01:28 |
| javispedro | GPS without DGPS isn't around 4-5 meters? that's hardly precise enough data for a robot. | 01:29 |
| AStorm | no. | 01:29 |
| AStorm | it's ~1m | 01:29 |
| javispedro | O.o | 01:29 |
| derf | johnx: AStorm is in grad-student mode, where everything seems easy. | 01:29 |
| AStorm | derf: it's not *too* easy | 01:29 |
| AStorm | and definitely not a job for one person. | 01:29 |
| derf | Because you haven't had to actually _do_ it yet. | 01:29 |
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| johnx | AStorm, you watched the grand challenge video (the second one), right? | 01:30 |
| AStorm | johnx: checking now... | 01:30 |
| derf | You know there was an Urban challenge, too, right? | 01:30 |
| johnx | AStorm, totally worth watching :) | 01:30 |
| AStorm | derf: that's harder I think, yes | 01:30 |
| javispedro | AStorm: sure about 1m? I remark I said "without DGPS". | 01:31 |
| AStorm | the whole problem is that you have to recognize artificial stop conditions | 01:31 |
| AStorm | javispedro: yes, with 3D fix. | 01:31 |
| AStorm | 5 sat lock or so | 01:31 |
| javispedro | 5 sat only?? | 01:31 |
| javispedro | no way. | 01:31 |
| CShadowRun | lol i've just been having a hilarious conversation with my brother, he thinks hes going to plug an SDXC card into the SDHC slot on the g1 | 01:31 |
| AStorm | ... | 01:31 |
| CShadowRun | and have 512GB+ of storage space | 01:31 |
| AStorm | javispedro: check HDOP data please :) | 01:31 |
| lcuk | is stanley still the lead car in those urban challenges? | 01:32 |
| johnx | CShadowRun, yeah, it'll work after he 1) finds a 512GB card and 2) formats it to something non-exfat | 01:32 |
| johnx | might need a hacked kernel | 01:32 |
| CShadowRun | really? i thought the hardware was diffrent | 01:32 |
| AStorm | johnx: could you give me a more direct link to the videos? | 01:32 |
| johnx | CShadowRun, nope, SDHC->SDXC is an artificial change | 01:32 |
| CShadowRun | oh, well there we go then | 01:32 |
| johnx | AStorm, here's one: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8594517128412883394# | 01:32 |
| CShadowRun | i assume the n900 can do that too? | 01:32 |
| johnx | AStorm, the discovery channel coverage is a good start | 01:33 |
| johnx | CShadowRun, linux-based devices should have no trouble | 01:33 |
| johnx | the linux sd/sdhc/sdxc hackers don't believe in artificial limits :) | 01:33 |
| javispedro | AStorm: 0.5 meter - 1 meter is what I get with DGPS. I can't see how GPS could get that. | 01:33 |
| * ShadowJK has lots of card readers that don't do sdhc reliably :) | 01:34 | |
| ShadowJK | javispedro, I guess it depends on if you want 1m absolute precision or 1m relative precision | 01:34 |
| johnx | ShadowJK, sd->sdhc is a whole different story | 01:34 |
| johnx | that was actually an addressing change | 01:34 |
| javispedro | ShadowJK: absolute. I can believe 1m in relative. | 01:34 |
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| ShadowJK | on maemo mapper the tracks look really accurate from when I park the car.. you can see exactly how I moved. BUT, the next day, the exact same shape tracks will appear with 10m offset :) | 01:35 |
| bobbyd | how do I close a scratchbox session? | 01:35 |
| bobbyd | I'm trying to select the X86 session in the SDK, but it says I have to close my current session... | 01:36 |
| javispedro | actually, iirc a common "household" gps may get 0.5m relative | 01:36 |
| javispedro | (max) | 01:36 |
| ShadowJK | once I put N810 in my pocket though, the tracks become a bit more irregular :) | 01:36 |
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| ShadowJK | But it has quite awesome relative performance when in the carstand | 01:37 |
| johnx | bobbyd, logout from the sb shell? | 01:37 |
| bobbyd | johnx: got it :) | 01:37 |
| AStorm | javispedro: by abusing different frequency signals to correct for ionospheric errors | 01:37 |
| AStorm | :) | 01:37 |
| ShadowJK | All the satellites transmit on the same frequency.. | 01:38 |
| AStorm | and using very high precision maths to remove computation error | 01:38 |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: WRONG. | 01:38 |
| ShadowJK | But I heard they were adding a second frequency in the future? | 01:38 |
| AStorm | they don't anymore | 01:38 |
| AStorm | there are at least 2 freqs | 01:38 |
| javispedro | "anymore"? | 01:38 |
| AStorm | one is the encrypted P(Y), whose carrier wave you can use to correct the ionospheric error | 01:38 |
| SpeedEvil1 | Common household GPSs don't do multifrequency | 01:39 |
| SpeedEvil1 | L1 and L2 | 01:39 |
| AStorm | yes, they don't. | 01:39 |
| AStorm | :) | 01:39 |
| *** SpeedEvil1 is now known as SpeedEvil | 01:39 | |
| SpeedEvil | They may do WAAS or EGGNOG | 01:39 |
| SpeedEvil | or whatever it is | 01:39 |
| javispedro | ==DGPS | 01:39 |
| javispedro | EGNOS. | 01:39 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 01:39 |
| ShadowJK | gps high on eggnog | 01:40 |
| ShadowJK | :) | 01:40 |
| javispedro | =) | 01:40 |
| SpeedEvil | It'd be so nice if GPS worked properly indoors. | 01:40 |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: hmh, that's far harder than getting ~1m precision | 01:40 |
| AStorm | :> | 01:40 |
| luke-jr | N810's does, when it works | 01:40 |
| SpeedEvil | yes. | 01:40 |
| SpeedEvil | Much. | 01:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | SpeedEvil, what, give directions at the grocery store? | 01:40 |
| SpeedEvil | GeneralAntilles: why not. | 01:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | "The milk is in aisle 10." | 01:41 |
| SpeedEvil | GeneralAntilles: I _want_ that. | 01:41 |
| luke-jr | GeneralAntilles: you say that as if software exists for directions on Linux | 01:41 |
| AStorm | javispedro: hey, and we'll get Galileo+GPS receivers | 01:41 |
| SpeedEvil | GeneralAntilles: I suck at shopping. | 01:41 |
| AStorm | that will allow for even more precision | 01:41 |
| javispedro | AStorm: hopefully. | 01:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | luke-jr, because it does. | 01:41 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: It does. | 01:41 |
| luke-jr | like what? O.o | 01:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Maemo Mapper | 01:41 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: tomtom has shipped millions of navigation on linux. | 01:41 |
| luke-jr | closest I saw was Maemo Mapper that relied on Google | 01:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hell, Ovi Maps, TomTom and Garmin. | 01:41 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: tomtom's is tied to their hw, no? | 01:42 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Well - yes. :/ | 01:42 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: you can buy it for the PC - but not for arm :/ | 01:42 |
| ShadowJK | tomtom works on symbian too ;-) | 01:42 |
| javispedro | tomtom soft is not tied to their hw | 01:42 |
| javispedro | but to their linux userland | 01:42 |
| luke-jr | javispedro: effectively | 01:42 |
| javispedro | i would compare it to android. | 01:42 |
| javispedro | only closed. | 01:42 |
| luke-jr | legally, too, afaik | 01:42 |
| luke-jr | GeneralAntilles: Ovi Maps website says it's not available for Linux | 01:43 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: there was a project to port it to zaurus iirc? | 01:43 |
| SpeedEvil | Also there is the maps - which can be tied to a SD card in some cases. | 01:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Arguably that's inaccurate. | 01:43 |
| javispedro | do you know if it ever produced something? | 01:43 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: all TomTom devices are Linux on MIPS. | 01:43 |
| SpeedEvil | And openstreetmap based devices. | 01:43 |
| SpeedEvil | But that is debatably functional. | 01:43 |
| luke-jr | my point was mainly that driving directions are impractical on N810 anyway, regardless of inside a grocery store -.- | 01:43 |
| SpeedEvil | At the moment in various laces. | 01:43 |
| SpeedEvil | places | 01:43 |
| luke-jr | it was not about proprietary products that happen to (ab)use Linux | 01:44 |
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| javispedro | but don't worry, we'll get k.i.t.t. emulation software to guide us in those grocery stores. | 01:44 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: hehehe, they are practical | 01:44 |
| SpeedEvil | An app that did routing, and barcode reading, and price lookup would be nice. | 01:44 |
| AStorm | if we get good enough maps in vector format | 01:45 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: indeed | 01:45 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil: add a robot and we have a winner. | 01:45 |
| luke-jr | lol | 01:45 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: I have one of those. Employed by tesco. | 01:45 |
| javispedro | those damn internet shops. | 01:45 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: but I just make one round through the grocery store, noting which items are nearby, then use that for categories | 01:45 |
| AStorm | javispedro: "add a robot" haha | 01:45 |
| AStorm | easier said than done | 01:45 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: I'm currently doing my shopping over the internet about monthly. | 01:46 |
| javispedro | :) | 01:46 |
| AStorm | although my autonomous 4-wheeler worked very well in a crowded environment too | 01:46 |
| AStorm | and it had less CPU than N900 | 01:46 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: relying heavily on buy-one-get-one free offers that I buy 6 months of. | 01:46 |
| javispedro | hhehe | 01:46 |
| SpeedEvil | But I'd like to be able to take my scraped pricelist for tesco, and walk round other shops. | 01:46 |
| AStorm | the most problematic part was actually responding fast enough to people moving about | 01:47 |
| AStorm | need hard RT for it, the CPU had barely enough power | 01:47 |
| javispedro | AStorm: so, what? tease them before they even have the chance to move. | 01:47 |
| AStorm | javispedro: tease them = hard RT | 01:47 |
| AStorm | avoid them, also hard RT | 01:47 |
| javispedro | then taze them. | 01:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Smash through the puny humans = soft RT. | 01:47 |
| AStorm | yes! | 01:48 |
| AStorm | :> | 01:48 |
| lcuk | the laser tracking should cut down puny bags of mostly water | 01:48 |
| lcuk | no point in messing the paintwork up | 01:48 |
| AStorm | hmm, not | 01:48 |
| AStorm | it would need to be quick enough in tracking | 01:48 |
| lcuk | or powerful enoug hat vaporising | 01:48 |
| AStorm | otherwise smashing becomes a good option | 01:48 |
| javispedro | = priceless RT. | 01:49 |
| AStorm | need some nice realtime routing algo as well | 01:49 |
| AStorm | we had to resort to simple smooth avoidance | 01:50 |
| AStorm | anything else was too slow | 01:50 |
| johnx | AStorm, watching the video? | 01:50 |
| AStorm | it had only the tiniest bit of prediction in | 01:50 |
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| AStorm | johnx: not yet, dling | 01:50 |
| javispedro | nite | 01:50 |
| AStorm | 75% done, so I can start to watch it | 01:50 |
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| johnx | ah, the one I linked? the stanford one? | 01:51 |
| johnx | or the discovery one? | 01:51 |
| AStorm | the stanford one I think | 01:51 |
| johnx | yeah, lots of good tech stuff in it | 01:51 |
| AStorm | "Winning the DARPA Grand Challenge" | 01:51 |
| johnx | yup | 01:51 |
| johnx | watching it online. lots of stuff I hadn't heard before | 01:52 |
| AStorm | I think DARPA requires use of optical info | 01:53 |
| AStorm | that is hard, very. | 01:53 |
| johnx | nope | 01:53 |
| johnx | for this one they used GPS and LIDAR | 01:53 |
| AStorm | mhm | 01:53 |
| SpeedEvil | lidar = optical | 01:53 |
| AStorm | neat :) | 01:53 |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: not really | 01:53 |
| SpeedEvil | true | 01:53 |
| AStorm | it's distance info | 01:53 |
| SpeedEvil | but it is optical | 01:53 |
| * SpeedEvil has a LIDAR under design for ebay | 01:53 | |
| SpeedEvil | Well - laser-ranger | 01:54 |
| SpeedEvil | It can of course be scanned | 01:54 |
| AStorm | what was the "No dynamic pa..ing" rule? | 01:55 |
| AStorm | I can't read it from the movie | 01:55 |
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| johnx | dunno | 01:56 |
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| AStorm | blah blah nice steering idea | 02:02 |
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| AStorm | except it's too sensitive to noise :> | 02:02 |
| johnx | wait til you're ~25 minutes in | 02:02 |
| AStorm | hm, nice fluid-based system | 02:03 |
| AStorm | similar to our simple avoidance code | 02:03 |
| AStorm | but it's not good enough, yes | 02:04 |
| AStorm | have to track "centripedal force" instead | 02:05 |
| AStorm | otherwise you can't go fast at all | 02:05 |
| AStorm | people have a built-in accelerometer, you know | 02:06 |
| lcuk | the overview and the massive problems they solved is impressive | 02:06 |
| lcuk | really really strong teamwork | 02:06 |
| AStorm | mhm | 02:06 |
| AStorm | heh, their car has too short lookahead | 02:10 |
| AStorm | it drives like my mom | 02:10 |
| johnx | they fixed it later | 02:10 |
| johnx | their fix is really cool :D | 02:10 |
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| lcuk | yeah johnx | 02:12 |
| AStorm | why the hell didn't they use a Z accelerometer? | 02:15 |
| AStorm | :> | 02:15 |
| johnx | they do | 02:15 |
| AStorm | not precise enough? :> | 02:15 |
| johnx | for what? | 02:15 |
| johnx | errr, what are you calling z? | 02:16 |
| johnx | left/right? up/down? | 02:16 |
| AStorm | up-down | 02:16 |
| AStorm | left-right is very useful too | 02:17 |
| johnx | yeah, they're using up/down | 02:17 |
| AStorm | the problem is of course that's "old data" :> | 02:17 |
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| johnx | yeah, the react to it to slow down, assuming that "bumps come in groups" | 02:19 |
| AStorm | neat stuff for vision | 02:20 |
| AStorm | still a cheap hack | 02:20 |
| AStorm | :P | 02:20 |
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| johnx | :P | 02:20 |
| johnx | sorry, AStorm, you're still falling into the whole "armchair" "roboticist" group :P | 02:21 |
| AStorm | no no | 02:21 |
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| lcuk | johnx, look at Benoît Mandelbrot's work on fractal clustering of noise within modem signals | 02:21 |
| AStorm | I'm failling into "face detector" group | 02:21 |
| SpeedEvil | Robotic armchairs are cool. | 02:21 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, I want one :D | 02:21 |
| AStorm | johnx: my expertise field is AI ;p that's why I said it's a neat hack | 02:22 |
| johnx | calling it "cheap" though? | 02:22 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, maybe a nice la-z-boy mounted on top of an AI controlled car | 02:22 |
| AStorm | cheap it is | 02:22 |
| AStorm | it's a threshold detector | 02:22 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: http://www.airtrax.com/vehicles/sidewinder.html | 02:23 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, heh...I'm thinking more like a perfectly normal arm chair on top of a perfectly normal roof rack on a perfectly normal looking car :) | 02:24 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 02:24 |
| SpeedEvil | Cool sideways wheels | 02:24 |
| SpeedEvil | ^ | 02:24 |
| johnx | those wheels are darn cool though | 02:24 |
| johnx | just saw that after I commented | 02:25 |
| AStorm | oooh, UCB just sunk :) | 02:25 |
| SpeedEvil | United Colours of Bennaton? | 02:25 |
| AStorm | no, Berkeley's bike | 02:26 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 02:26 |
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| lcuk | AStorm, kind of expected | 02:28 |
| lcuk | bikes have more than 2 wheels for some fraction of the time | 02:28 |
| AStorm | oh no no no, they still have 2 | 02:31 |
| AStorm | but 4 points of support | 02:32 |
| lcuk | heh | 02:35 |
| AStorm | hm, I have some fun ideas for "road vision problem", hehe | 02:37 |
| lcuk | put them towards a nush n900 interaction instead | 02:39 |
| AStorm | meh, rather toward my eng degree: hwr | 02:40 |
| lcuk | jave a mini rc car using camera drivign around store and not knocking legs | 02:40 |
| lcuk | have | 02:40 |
| AStorm | mmmm, hey, we've done it already | 02:40 |
| AStorm | but with a weaker armel | 02:40 |
| AStorm | I found some company selling cheap OMAP 3 boards | 02:41 |
| lcuk | yeah they are called beaglebords :P | 02:41 |
| lcuk | boards | 02:41 |
| AStorm | more powerful than beagleboards and far cheaper | 02:41 |
| ShadowJK | more powerful? o rly | 02:42 |
| AStorm | what was the company name... hmm, yes, I wrote that down | 02:42 |
| ShadowJK | what cpu then? | 02:42 |
| lcuk | and how cheap | 02:42 |
| AStorm | like, half the price of a beagleboard | 02:42 |
| microlith | do tell | 02:42 |
| AStorm | TmiLL | 02:42 |
| ShadowJK | what cpu? | 02:43 |
| AStorm | or was it EmiLL, or something like it | 02:43 |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: I think OMAP 3530 | 02:43 |
| ShadowJK | hm | 02:43 |
| AStorm | Dev Kit 8000 that is. | 02:44 |
| AStorm | I've seen it work really well irl | 02:44 |
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| AStorm | damnit, what's the name of the company again | 02:47 |
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| AStorm | I'll have to ask that friend for the url for the retailer | 02:50 |
| AStorm | yeah right, TimLL not TmiLL ;p | 02:50 |
| * AStorm failed | 02:50 | |
| AStorm | and I still can't find that retailer | 02:53 |
| AStorm | that was likely that Embest kit | 02:54 |
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| SpeedEvil | embest - IIRC - was quantities of 100 only | 03:00 |
| SpeedEvil | And it's got a horribly limited peripheral set IIRC. | 03:01 |
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| johnx | gah! flying to summit is going to be insane | 03:10 |
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| AStorm | SpeedEvil: horribly limited? :> | 03:21 |
| AStorm | I checked - it's actually better than BeagleBoard | 03:21 |
| AStorm | but it has less RAM and Flash, and is larger | 03:21 |
| AStorm | :/ | 03:21 |
| johnx | *less* RAM? | 03:22 |
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| johnx | aka 128MB? | 03:23 |
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| pupnik | how do i interrupt ubuntu maemo vmware sdk image and get to console? i see splash screen, then desktop 0.2 second, then reboot | 03:24 |
| pupnik | don't see any grub screen either | 03:25 |
| lcuk | pupnik, dunno | 03:25 |
| lcuk | reboot the vmware image and use normal key combos to stop/halt linux | 03:26 |
| lcuk | possibly | 03:26 |
| ccooke | Hmm. I was a bit worried by the n900's keyboard layout, but it really works very well (just seen an n97 mini, which is almost identical) | 03:26 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: $259 < Beagle? | 03:26 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: not. | 03:27 |
| ccooke | Although I kept thinking I still had to press space, even though I'd rememered to hit the off-centre space key :-) | 03:27 |
| AStorm | but this includes screen | 03:27 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: DevKit 8000 is $259... | 03:27 |
| AStorm | no. | 03:27 |
| AStorm | that's the package with the screen and camera | 03:27 |
| luke-jr | $149 then | 03:27 |
| AStorm | with the 7" screen actually | 03:27 |
| lcuk | ccooke, yeah they are samey | 03:27 |
| AStorm | yes, and that's exactly same as BeagleBoard latest | 03:27 |
| AStorm | :/ | 03:28 |
| AStorm | I guess they cut the pricing on that. | 03:28 |
| ccooke | lcuk: different keys and a different symbol key. The layout's identical. | 03:28 |
| lcuk | 97 mini looks smart too - nokia "getting" design a bit :) | 03:28 |
| ccooke | I'm really surprised it works so well | 03:28 |
| pupnik | i don't see any grub menu just loading... for a split second | 03:28 |
| lcuk | yeah me too | 03:28 |
| pupnik | k thanks lcuk | 03:28 |
| lcuk | was given a run over of a few things whilst in london, looked nice | 03:28 |
| AStorm | lcuk: indeed | 03:29 |
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| ccooke | keys on the mini were very nice - much nicer than the n810. I hope that carries through to the n900 - it seems to be a little closer to the n810's type from photos I've seen. | 03:29 |
| AStorm | so N97 mini has the same design? | 03:29 |
| ccooke | Of course, that might not be final! | 03:29 |
| AStorm | ccooke: yes, they are very similar apparently | 03:29 |
| lcuk | very similar | 03:29 |
| AStorm | *same keyboard | 03:29 |
| AStorm | or very close | 03:29 |
| ccooke | AStorm: keyboard-wise, they're identical in layout except for one key | 03:29 |
| AStorm | what about non-mini N97? | 03:29 |
| AStorm | ccooke: mmmmm | 03:30 |
| * lcuk cannot see himself not carrying n900 now | 03:30 | |
| AStorm | this means the PL layout might be similar as well | 03:30 |
| lcuk | it works on a lanyard too! | 03:30 |
| AStorm | I'll have to check | 03:30 |
| ccooke | (the n97 has the symbol key at top-left, the n900 has that as ctrl with symbol as a secondary function) | 03:30 |
| ccooke | lcuk: the interface on the n97 mini was *terrible*, though | 03:30 |
| AStorm | hehehe | 03:30 |
| ccooke | tons of wasted space most of the time | 03:30 |
| lcuk | haha | 03:31 |
| lcuk | i think linux should be everywhere | 03:31 |
| ccooke | although it was a pre-production model, so I guess it might be better in the final build | 03:31 |
| lcuk | so i wasnt exactly looking at symbian :D | 03:31 |
| AStorm | N97 has a keyboard similar to N810 though | 03:31 |
| AStorm | not that great, but somewhat improved | 03:31 |
| lcuk | i would love to see maemo on more devices like the 97 mini | 03:32 |
| lcuk | one day allow current owners to do an update :D | 03:32 |
| ccooke | lcuk: it's a nice bit of hardware. Shame about the OS :-) | 03:32 |
| johnx | the n900 vs the n810 is no contest. n900 wins hands down in terms of keyboard. really impressive improvement considering they actually shrunk it a bit | 03:32 |
| lcuk | 1 loss | 03:32 |
| lcuk | ip addresses with dots | 03:32 |
| ccooke | johnx: my only worry is the lack of escape key | 03:32 |
| lcuk | that is the only time in the lifespan of this machine i have actually cursed | 03:33 |
| johnx | ccooke, hmm. I didn't consider that in my brief hands on | 03:33 |
| ccooke | johnx: I use console stuff a lot... | 03:33 |
| johnx | I try not to, but I inevitably do | 03:33 |
| johnx | no escape key will make vi less than fun | 03:33 |
| lcuk | sampo made a shake2control app for media player | 03:33 |
| AStorm | lcuk: fixable with modal input | 03:34 |
| lcuk | should we make you a shake2escape app | 03:34 |
| AStorm | let's have modal keyboard layouts | 03:34 |
| johnx | lcuk, brilliant! | 03:34 |
| AStorm | ;P | 03:34 |
| lcuk | so when you get frustrated with emacs, you can close it by shaking it | 03:34 |
| ccooke | lcuk: heh. I used to keep n810 and HTC magic in the same pocket... I figure I'll manage with just the n900 :-) | 03:34 |
| AStorm | lcuk: my wrist won't like that | 03:34 |
| AStorm | maybe use the "red call" button? | 03:34 |
| AStorm | the one that disconnects a call | 03:34 |
| johnx | but really, in the case of the terminal, escape is on the bottom row of the touchscreen | 03:34 |
| johnx | totally usable | 03:35 |
| AStorm | but takes screen | 03:35 |
| lcuk | i actually think a generic global strong shake2escape would be good | 03:35 |
| lcuk | something that didnt trigger normally | 03:35 |
| AStorm | horrid | 03:35 |
| ccooke | johnx: I'll be disabling that at the earliest opportunity. | 03:35 |
| AStorm | wrist will hurt | 03:35 |
| lcuk | no | 03:35 |
| lcuk | you can use the device happily already | 03:35 |
| lcuk | currently without it | 03:35 |
| Pavlov | ccooke: the n900 is nicer than the magic in most ways imho | 03:35 |
| johnx | ccooke, have you played with their terminal app? | 03:35 |
| AStorm | again, can't we adapt the call buttons? | 03:35 |
| lcuk | im talking about the "damn" moments | 03:35 |
| wazd | not shake but "rotate 180" :) | 03:35 |
| lcuk | where you need escape and havent got it | 03:36 |
| Pavlov | the lack of a ~ key is my single biggest n900 keyboard complaint | 03:36 |
| ccooke | johnx: I've not seen an n900 | 03:36 |
| AStorm | Pavlov: fixable too, but, yeah | 03:36 |
| lcuk | wazd i hold and draw on my device in all different orientations | 03:36 |
| Pavlov | but perhaps i spend too much time in a browser | 03:36 |
| wazd | I want to have "makeitcoolrightnow" button | 03:36 |
| lcuk | i have the flow in different directions (colors change..) | 03:36 |
| johnx | ccooke, the bottom toolbar on the terminal also includes a nice button to switch between "drag to scroll" and "drag to select" | 03:36 |
| Pavlov | AStorm: yeah, totally fixable | 03:37 |
| ccooke | johnx: too much screen space :-) | 03:37 |
| AStorm | We need 1) more modes from the keyboard | 03:37 |
| johnx | use shorter fonts :D | 03:37 |
| lcuk | and just hold it and rotate n stuff so just saying one orientation change wouldnt work for everything | 03:37 |
| wazd | lcuk: even with screen facing the floor? O_o | 03:37 |
| lcuk | yeah actually | 03:37 |
| ccooke | johnx: I do... | 03:37 |
| lcuk | i lie in bed :$ | 03:37 |
| lcuk | with it above lol | 03:37 |
| AStorm | (that is, tie more shift states to certain buttons - the arrow one comes to mind) | 03:37 |
| lcuk | its rather fascinating | 03:37 |
| wazd | lcuk: dude... | 03:38 |
| lcuk | watching the curls and ebb and flow :) | 03:38 |
| lcuk | you havent played with it | 03:38 |
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| AStorm | johnx: hmmh | 03:38 |
| Pavlov | AStorm: 2nd most annoying thing about the keyboard is when you want to hit ~ you have to pop up the symbol vkb, and then hit ~ and then space | 03:38 |
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| AStorm | Pavlov: space? what for | 03:39 |
| ccooke | Pavlov: the HTC magic is a very nice phone and I like android... but it's chronically underpowered and lacking in battery. | 03:39 |
| AStorm | it thinks VKB ~ is a dead key? | 03:39 |
| Pavlov | incase you want to type ~ + e | 03:39 |
| wazd | lcuk: you lie in the bed and hold the tablet above you? :) | 03:39 |
| AStorm | blah. | 03:39 |
| Pavlov | yeah. | 03:39 |
| AStorm | vkb sucks anyway | 03:39 |
| ccooke | the other day... my Magic ran out of power while I was trying to answer the phone. So I scrambled to put it on charge... | 03:39 |
| AStorm | have another shift key | 03:39 |
| lcuk | wazd, all you have seen on any videos are a single linear flow - each particle goes on its own path and each is effected by where it is how fast its going and what the accelerometer is doing | 03:39 |
| wazd | lcuk: not on the side or else, above? :) | 03:39 |
| Pavlov | the number of hours wasted on that that i've personally seen is high | 03:39 |
| Pavlov | ccooke: yep, the hardware for the magic is great | 03:40 |
| ccooke | as soon as it was responsive, I called them back. | 03:40 |
| Pavlov | ccooke: i recently stopped carrying mine around | 03:40 |
| ccooke | I was a little impatient when it did nothing, though... so I ended up placing three simultaneous calls. | 03:40 |
| lcuk | depending on the complexity of the flow sketch drawn the pathway is completely dynamic | 03:40 |
| lcuk | and yes sometimes i do when i get curious | 03:40 |
| ccooke | (yes, it actually *did* place three calls to the same number. Each of them activated, then put the previous call on hold) | 03:40 |
| lcuk | normally i am lay on back reading or writing | 03:41 |
| AStorm | ccooke: mwhaha | 03:41 |
| AStorm | dumb dumb dumb ui | 03:41 |
| ccooke | it ended up getting confused enough that I restarted it... | 03:41 |
| AStorm | this phone will be loads of fun | 03:41 |
| wazd | anyway, that wierd situations are not counted in UX tests :) | 03:41 |
| b-man16 | http://donmak.deviantart.com/art/Fat-Donald-32704833 <<this is scary 0.o | 03:42 |
| ccooke | Oh, and the google app store and its handy ability to "sit there not downloading"... | 03:42 |
| wazd | like zero gravity or twittering while downhilling :D | 03:42 |
| lcuk | lol | 03:42 |
| lcuk | wazd this was before i added accelerometer: http://liqbase.net/liqflow_test.AVI | 03:42 |
| lcuk | that is the n810 app basically | 03:43 |
| AStorm | oh btw | 03:43 |
| AStorm | I wonder if accelerometer is used for analogue camera stabilization | 03:43 |
| lcuk | less than 24hours after first built :) | 03:43 |
| AStorm | or maybe it's not precise enough | 03:44 |
| lcuk | i am incapable of taking stable shots with camera | 03:44 |
| lcuk | tracy can | 03:44 |
| lcuk | the accel count really help much | 03:44 |
| lcuk | couldnt | 03:44 |
| AStorm | hmmh | 03:44 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: fancy, but what's the point? | 03:44 |
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| wazd | lcuk: no, seriously, you're gonna win the nomination "the coolest tech used in the most senseless way" :D | 03:45 |
| lcuk | the point of liqflow? it gets over my doodling fetish. | 03:45 |
| AStorm | pity they couldn't fit a liquid gyro stabilizer | 03:45 |
| lcuk | whats the point of a rubics cube | 03:45 |
| lcuk | or tetris | 03:45 |
| lcuk | or anything else | 03:45 |
| wazd | lcuk: they develop brain :) | 03:45 |
| AStorm | a small thing called fun | 03:45 |
| lcuk | wazd - the code is open - make other useless crap with it | 03:45 |
| lcuk | develop your brain | 03:45 |
| lcuk | im developing mine! | 03:46 |
| AStorm | heh | 03:46 |
| AStorm | I prefer harder code than that (conceptually-wise) | 03:46 |
| lcuk | that IS hard code | 03:46 |
| AStorm | liqbase is mostly drudgery IMO ;p | 03:46 |
| lcuk | you make a particle field react like that | 03:46 |
| lcuk | it has to be | 03:46 |
| AStorm | ah, you mean particle field? that's fun | 03:46 |
| AStorm | :) | 03:46 |
| lcuk | to allow me to make anything else | 03:46 |
| lcuk | its an ideas generator | 03:47 |
| lcuk | i can prototype on device quickly and know if something works | 03:47 |
| AStorm | hm, maybe make a flow simulator as well | 03:47 |
| wazd | Well, whatever, I'm not the judge | 03:47 |
| lcuk | if it does i can spend a bit more time developing it | 03:47 |
| lcuk | wazd - the best part is now standalone apps can be made | 03:47 |
| wazd | lcuk: let's hope they will | 03:48 |
| AStorm | lcuk: now that would be liqliq ;) | 03:48 |
| AStorm | I mean, flow simulator widget | 03:48 |
| lcuk | heh astorm | 03:48 |
| AStorm | also usable for those sliding gestures | 03:48 |
| lcuk | you havent seen the onedotzero app | 03:48 |
| lcuk | it has full tilt and shake stuff | 03:48 |
| AStorm | which one? | 03:48 |
| AStorm | ah, no no | 03:49 |
| wazd | lcuk: cause the only app that reached 1.0 with all liqbase awesomeness is fricking remote :D | 03:49 |
| AStorm | I meant for dragging stuff around | 03:49 |
| lcuk | i spent time working out how to handle the accelerometer | 03:49 |
| Pavlov | lcuk: that stuff is cool | 03:49 |
| lcuk | yeah wazd :) | 03:49 |
| AStorm | and calculate resistance using fluid equations | 03:49 |
| lcuk | i have had no motivation to make an app for anyone | 03:49 |
| lcuk | beyond myself | 03:49 |
| AStorm | you know what I'm talking about, you did that once in VB | 03:49 |
| lcuk | and i use it everyday | 03:49 |
| AStorm | ^ | 03:49 |
| lcuk | yeah AStorm | 03:49 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: earlier today, it was noted that liqbase is basically VB | 03:50 |
| AStorm | that is for extreme window dragging :) | 03:50 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: mwhahaha | 03:50 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: literally, that's the IDE | 03:50 |
| lcuk | lol AStorm hes almost right | 03:50 |
| AStorm | yes, yes he is | 03:50 |
| AStorm | I read some if liqbase code | 03:50 |
| AStorm | *of | 03:50 |
| lcuk | its a small library of everything i need -> msvbvm60.dll ;) and i use vb for give me basic layout panels | 03:50 |
| lcuk | im a hacker - i use whats at hand | 03:51 |
| AStorm | I actually preferred Delphi VCL | 03:51 |
| wazd | lcuk: You're cunning a little, you do liqbase for yourself but make noise that can't be ignored, so people share their opinions | 03:51 |
| AStorm | hmmh | 03:51 |
| lcuk | wazd i make noise because i am doing things which people want | 03:52 |
| lcuk | i cant do everything on my own | 03:52 |
| AStorm | since we have such a powerful CPU in N900, that opens a few interesting HWR options | 03:52 |
| AStorm | like resonance networks | 03:52 |
| wazd | lcuk: you just told me to make something I want on my own :) | 03:52 |
| lcuk | like i see people moaning about this that or the other - i speak up because ive done it | 03:52 |
| lcuk | yeah flex your brain - the hard work is basically done now | 03:52 |
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| lcuk | the library can pretty much handle everything i can code into it | 03:53 |
| AStorm | lcuk: code a video player then? ;p | 03:53 |
| lcuk | ive built a fuckload of shit with it | 03:53 |
| AStorm | using liq as the drawing engine for uber speed | 03:53 |
| wazd | lcuk: I'm not a coder in any way :) | 03:53 |
| lcuk | AStorm, gstreamer sink in yuv format to liqimage | 03:53 |
| AStorm | yes yes | 03:53 |
| AStorm | something like that | 03:53 |
| AStorm | or mplayer output | 03:53 |
| lcuk | i know wazd, so think about simple layouts for simple apps - like you do already | 03:53 |
| lcuk | things which it doesnt matter what toolkit its done in | 03:54 |
| lcuk | maemo has needs for your excellent services all over hte place | 03:54 |
| lcuk | from gtk to qt to things in liqbase even and probably edje canola stuff | 03:54 |
| AStorm | hm, I wonder if resonance network will be powerful enough to handle continuous hwr w/o huge database | 03:54 |
| wazd | lcuk: my services are far from excellent in fact | 03:54 |
| AStorm | that could be the necessary break | 03:54 |
| wazd | lcuk: I just do what I can :) | 03:55 |
| * lcuk nods | 03:55 | |
| AStorm | hm, it's not O(feature), but instead O(log db-size), hmmh | 03:55 |
| AStorm | that's not good. | 03:56 |
| lcuk | AStorm, mplayer would be more tricky because it creates its own surface | 03:56 |
| lcuk | im not sure yet how yuv overlay on yuvoverlay will play out | 03:56 |
| AStorm | no, it tells the output plugin to do so | 03:56 |
| AStorm | :) | 03:56 |
| lcuk | and liq* is recursive so the same movie could be visible in 10 places | 03:56 |
| johnx | lots of crazy mplayer output plugins | 03:56 |
| AStorm | (check gl plugin code for example) | 03:57 |
| wazd | lcuk: how's it going with GSoC project? | 03:57 |
| AStorm | lcuk: hahaha | 03:57 |
| lcuk | wazd, zach completed with flying colors :) | 03:57 |
| lcuk | he helped get me started with documentaiton | 03:57 |
| lcuk | documentation | 03:57 |
| lcuk | i now have basics in place and knowledge of how to document - which was essential | 03:57 |
| wazd | lcuk: good | 03:57 |
| lcuk | he completed his app (roughly), it works well - like other liq* stuff still rough round the edges, but he designed it right and used all the liq* principles | 03:58 |
| Macer | wow | 03:58 |
| Macer | go bears! | 03:58 |
| Macer | :) | 03:58 |
| lcuk | he wrote a getting started guide and had a great time over the summer | 03:58 |
| AStorm | hm, any idea how to quickly calculate cepstrum over generic features? | 03:58 |
| lcuk | wazd, i had a beaming grin when i saw his app for the first time | 03:59 |
| lcuk | http://www.flickr.com/photos/38672658@N07/ | 03:59 |
| AStorm | in other words, inverse fourier transform over generic stuff | 03:59 |
| lcuk | it showed me the first glimpe of what liqbase stuff with a nice coat of paint could do :) | 04:00 |
| lcuk | glimpse | 04:00 |
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| AStorm | hmmhmm, I wonder if analyzing the recognized characters by frequency content will be fruitful | 04:03 |
| lcuk | all in all, z4chh did an amazing job this summer and gsoc to me was a huge success! | 04:03 |
| AStorm | likely yes | 04:03 |
| AStorm | and finally implement a mip-mapped lifter which I wanted to do | 04:05 |
| AStorm | hmmh :> | 04:05 |
| AStorm | since convolution -> cepstrum addition, I could... detect whole phrases by subtraction. | 04:06 |
| AStorm | WIN. | 04:06 |
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| SpeedEvil | AStorm: Ah - they used to only sell eval kits in qty 25 IIRC | 04:06 |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: hehe | 04:07 |
| AStorm | :) | 04:07 |
| AStorm | now, the cepstrum loses time information, so the actual order of symbols is to be determined with another algorithm | 04:07 |
| AStorm | but it tells me which features compose a symbol | 04:08 |
| AStorm | so at worst an O(n) search over the phrase will give me exact locations | 04:08 |
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| SpeedEvil | Neural network! | 04:09 |
| SpeedEvil | :/ | 04:09 |
| AStorm | no. | 04:09 |
| SpeedEvil | Or ship it live to some poor sod in china with a keyboard. | 04:09 |
| AStorm | NN aren't good enough or fast enough. | 04:09 |
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| AStorm | and they require tons of tuning I can't afford | 04:10 |
| AStorm | I need self-tunable and stable algoritms, NNs aren't either | 04:10 |
| SpeedEvil | Yeah - I was more commenting ont he fact that some seem to think it's a solution to everything | 04:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Also they fail at being predictable and transparent. | 04:11 |
| AStorm | hehehe | 04:11 |
| SpeedEvil | I was reading about using NN to control aerodynamically unstable planes. | 04:11 |
| AStorm | silly, I beat NN-based classifier with 2nd degree Winnow with gaussian weights already | 04:11 |
| AStorm | but that's not good enough | 04:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Have you considered shorthand? | 04:12 |
| AStorm | shorthand is not interesting | 04:12 |
| AStorm | I want to attack normal continuous handwriting. | 04:12 |
| SpeedEvil | Why not? | 04:12 |
| AStorm | since shorthand gets 99,5% hit rate here | 04:12 |
| SpeedEvil | I was simply meaning from the POV of speed | 04:12 |
| AStorm | with the basic Winnow. | 04:12 |
| SpeedEvil | that's not bad at all | 04:13 |
| lcuk | astorm you need data | 04:13 |
| lcuk | lots of data | 04:13 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 04:13 |
| AStorm | lcuk: no, I don't. I need to finish the structure | 04:13 |
| AStorm | then I can gather data | 04:13 |
| lcuk | you have been on that stage for as long as we have spoken | 04:13 |
| AStorm | I mean, I do have data gathering already | 04:13 |
| lcuk | i am already collecting data | 04:13 |
| lcuk | i can give it you in svg format | 04:14 |
| lcuk | or native sketch | 04:14 |
| AStorm | doesn't really matter | 04:14 |
| lcuk | you can store/record your own too | 04:14 |
| AStorm | I have to finish the structure because the algorithm can't run w/o it ;p | 04:14 |
| * lcuk understands | 04:14 | |
| lcuk | but seeing other peoples handwriting may help you - if you are coding something thats making assumptions on your hw | 04:15 |
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| AStorm | no, I'm never doing that | 04:15 |
| AStorm | that's why my cepstrum will be done at various sliding window sizes | 04:15 |
| SpeedEvil | I assume it's user-trained? | 04:16 |
| AStorm | cepstrum? definitely | 04:16 |
| AStorm | Winnow? obviously. | 04:16 |
| AStorm | window sizes for cepstrum? tunable, but not trainable | 04:16 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, with me, i just want to turn on hwr one day | 04:16 |
| lcuk | and have my entire back catalog working | 04:16 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: nice | 04:16 |
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| lcuk | i will get round to it one day | 04:17 |
| lcuk | or astorm can plug his in and see what rates he gets | 04:17 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liqbase_river.php?username=lcuk | 04:17 |
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| AStorm | hmmhmmhmm | 04:19 |
| AStorm | since cepstrum is linearly separable... | 04:19 |
| AStorm | I could run any kind of machine learning on that | 04:19 |
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| AStorm | this includes abusing Winnow once again | 04:19 |
| AStorm | ;p | 04:19 |
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| lcuk | AStorm, your detection algo could be abused to do shake gestures | 04:21 |
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| lcuk | if its simple enough | 04:21 |
| lcuk | cos thats a continuous stream of data | 04:21 |
| AStorm | indeed | 04:21 |
| AStorm | actually, cepstrum was created to discern shakes | 04:22 |
| AStorm | actually, earthquakes from bomb explosions etc. | 04:22 |
| AStorm | :) | 04:22 |
| AStorm | seismic data | 04:22 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liq.20090916_052426.ctrlrogers_record1.scr.png | 04:22 |
| AStorm | it's perfect for that | 04:22 |
| lcuk | on the back of a discussion with rogers | 04:22 |
| AStorm | or voice analysis | 04:22 |
| * lcuk nods | 04:22 | |
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| AStorm | lcuk: extend that to 3D please :) | 04:24 |
| AStorm | or are those already 3 components? | 04:24 |
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| lcuk | 3 components | 04:24 |
| MaceN8x0 | eureka is so damn funny some times | 04:26 |
| AStorm | see, by abusing cepstral analysis, I can detect filter changes as well | 04:26 |
| lcuk | MaceN8x0, i just watched the final ep | 04:26 |
| lcuk | its been a great series | 04:26 |
| MaceN8x0 | final?? | 04:26 |
| lcuk | final in series wasnt it | 04:26 |
| lcuk | 18 | 04:26 |
| MaceN8x0 | this is the last one?? | 04:26 |
| AStorm | like e.g. skew due to fast writing etc. | 04:26 |
| AStorm | and ignore them somewhat | 04:26 |
| AStorm | hmmh :) | 04:26 |
| MaceN8x0 | no way | 04:26 |
| lcuk | the one where they tied everything up | 04:26 |
| MaceN8x0 | it got cancelled?? | 04:27 |
| lcuk | i hope not! | 04:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | tied? | 04:27 |
| lcuk | just end of series | 04:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | i'm watching the one with the colider | 04:27 |
| lcuk | but they left it with the team splitting up :'( | 04:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | no way... i sure hope it doesnt end | 04:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | i love this show | 04:27 |
| lcuk | me too! | 04:27 |
| lcuk | its funny as hell | 04:27 |
| lcuk | good relaxing tv | 04:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | it sure is | 04:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | damnit | 04:28 |
| lcuk | time for the serious series now | 04:28 |
| lcuk | tracy got ep of bones | 04:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | bones is good by the middle of the first season | 04:29 |
| MaceN8x0 | it got a little crappy after the 3rd | 04:29 |
| MaceN8x0 | but got better now | 04:29 |
| lcuk | its kindof an ideal show for me n tracy | 04:30 |
| lcuk | neither of us watch for the story | 04:30 |
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| MaceN8x0 | haha | 04:31 |
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| MaceN8x0 | watch ncis | 04:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | it's pretty funny | 04:31 |
| AStorm | heh, what I'll attempt (resonance recognition) is in essence a SETAR model ;p | 04:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | lcuk, i don't think it was cancelled | 04:34 |
| lcuk | i didnt think it had | 04:35 |
| lcuk | it just finished the series | 04:35 |
| lcuk | like i said :P | 04:35 |
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| MaceN8x0 | season ;) | 04:39 |
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| GAN800 | Series/season confusion | 04:41 |
| GAN800 | fun | 04:41 |
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| MaceN8x0 | oooh | 04:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | that is an old season | 04:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 04:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | you in eastern europe? | 04:53 |
| MaceN8x0 | miami wice.... new number one show! | 04:53 |
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| MaceN8x0 | the daughter did leave tho | 04:57 |
| MaceN8x0 | and the blonde girl | 04:57 |
| xnt14[Core] | hello world! | 04:57 |
| xnt14[Core] | long time, no see :P | 04:57 |
| xnt14[Core] | haven | 04:57 |
| xnt14[Core] | haven | 04:57 |
| xnt14[Core] | haven | 04:57 |
| xnt14[Core] | damn | 04:57 |
| xnt14[Core] | I hate this new keyboard | 04:58 |
| xnt14[Core] | haven't been on irc in a while | 04:58 |
| xnt14[Core] | hmm | 04:58 |
| xnt14[Core] | ~seen b-man16 | 04:58 |
| infobot | b-man16 <n=b-man16@pool-98-108-31-110.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1h 16m 36s ago, saying: 'http://donmak.deviantart.com/art/Fat-Donald-32704833 <<this is scary 0.o'. | 04:58 |
| xnt14[Core] | :P | 04:58 |
| xnt14[Core] | one hour :P | 04:58 |
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| pupnik | i got my maemo vmware sdk image mounted in regular linux as loopback! | 05:27 |
| pupnik | yaay | 05:27 |
| pupnik | losetup -d /dev/loop0 # delete existing loop mount | 05:28 |
| pupnik | losetup -o32256 /dev/loop0 /media/disk1part4/Old80/b5/vmdk/maemo-sdk/maemo-sdk.bin | 05:28 |
| pupnik | 32256 to offset to first partition | 05:29 |
| pupnik | then | 05:29 |
| pupnik | mount -t ext3 /dev/loop0 /media/loop | 05:29 |
| pupnik | voila | 05:30 |
| ShadowJK | not sm | 05:35 |
| ShadowJK | not simultaneously running the image, i hope | 05:36 |
| pupnik | no | 05:36 |
| pupnik | to create the bin i used http://readlist.com/lists/gentoo.org/gentoo-user/20/102001.html | 05:36 |
| johnx | anyone ever play with Intermec tablets from ~10 years ago? | 05:36 |
| pupnik | eh pastefail | 05:37 |
| pupnik | qemu-img convert /path/to/vmdk myname.bin | 05:37 |
| pupnik | not i | 05:37 |
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| mlewis | VOTE LCUK for Maemo Community Council | 05:47 |
| mlewis | VOTE LCUK for Maemo Community Council | 05:47 |
| johnx | aren't you running as well penguinbait? | 05:48 |
| mlewis | shhhh | 05:50 |
| mlewis | I am voting for lcuk :) | 05:50 |
| johnx | changed your mind at the last minute or ... ? | 05:50 |
| luke-jr | johnx: he's trying to get his opposition disqualified for spamming | 05:50 |
| johnx | luke-jr, just wanted to make sure it didn't look like that to someone reading the logs who can't WHOIS :) | 05:51 |
| mlewis | I am not voting for myself thats lame | 05:51 |
| mlewis | Why didnt qwerty run? | 05:51 |
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| timholum | hello, I am wondering if anyone has had any luck hacking the n770 to have a usb webcam and view the video on it? | 06:03 |
| pupnik | i haven't built any kernel modules for it yet | 06:03 |
| timholum | I made the cable to do so, and can get a keyboard to work thorught it | 06:03 |
| pupnik | have you used the camera on standard linux before? | 06:04 |
| timholum | ya, | 06:04 |
| timholum | but i always use it with vlc which I can not get to install | 06:05 |
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| pupnik | i don't know about the cameras and where v4l or v4l2 is for maemo | 06:05 |
| pupnik | going to use 770 as an ip-camera? | 06:07 |
| timholum | i googled for v4l for maemo and did not find any deb's :( | 06:07 |
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| luke-jr | uhh | 06:08 |
| luke-jr | v4l is a kernel thing | 06:08 |
| timholum | I am actuly going to mount a webcam to my paintball gun and then be able to shoot it arount corners and such | 06:08 |
| luke-jr | ......... | 06:08 |
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| luke-jr | device abuser | 06:08 |
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| timholum | I would protect my n770, well, I am sorry to run so soon, but I have to go. | 06:09 |
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| johnx | ahaha | 06:13 |
| johnx | I like the idea of a webcam on a stick :) | 06:13 |
| Firebird | oh neat, an idea for nokia PUSH >_> | 06:17 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ah, iPhone users. | 06:47 |
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| GeneralAntilles | 320x480 is the one true resolution! :roll: | 06:48 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, is the default summit situation still 2 per room? | 06:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yes | 06:48 |
| johnx | ah, good deal | 06:48 |
| johnx | you already got a roommate? | 06:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not that I know of. | 06:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | Let me check | 06:49 |
| johnx | ah, knowing where to signup would be good | 06:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Summit_2009/Accommodation | 06:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | No, no roommate. | 06:49 |
| johnx | though now that I recall, I think rm_you and I are rooming together | 06:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, he mentioned something along those lines. ;) | 06:50 |
| luke-jr | what's the diff between hotel and hostel? O.o | 06:50 |
| johnx | luke-jr, never heard of a hostel? | 06:50 |
| luke-jr | no? | 06:51 |
| johnx | don't travel much outside the US, huh? | 06:51 |
| luke-jr | never | 06:51 |
| johnx | it's 6+ people in a single room full of bunk beds | 06:51 |
| luke-jr | not much within the US | 06:51 |
| luke-jr | o | 06:51 |
| johnx | usually goes for cheap | 06:51 |
| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: I won't be able to make it after all. :/ | 06:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, :\ | 06:52 |
| * GeneralAntilles grits his teeth at Talk. | 06:53 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Why are all of my card readers broken? :( | 06:53 |
| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: Major milestone at work got moved around... bleh. | 06:53 |
| * luke-jr only has handheld devices as card readers :x | 06:53 | |
| GeneralAntilles | That sucks. | 06:53 |
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| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: Avenge me! | 06:54 |
| luke-jr | ... | 06:54 |
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| * RST38h moos | 07:48 | |
| johnx | yo | 07:48 |
| johnx | microsoft sure makes up great "this is the future you'll never live in" videos | 07:49 |
| * GeneralAntilles is continually balked by technology. | 07:49 | |
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| * RST38h would avoid living in MS' future | 07:52 | |
| RST38h | X-Fade: here? | 07:52 |
| johnx | RST38h, but it seems so peaceful, and utopian, and so full of totally unnatural glitzy interfaces! | 07:53 |
| RST38h | just means they ar putting prozac in the water | 07:55 |
| johnx | well, if they're doing that, it's surely for our own good | 07:55 |
| RST38h | and probably some hallucinogens too, to make those glitzy interfaces materialize | 07:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | Why is it that card readers refuse to work when you need them? | 07:56 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, they want you to go buy the upgraded one | 07:58 |
| RST38h | ohhohoh, tmobile offers n900 for free with the contract in uk | 07:58 |
| johnx | RST38h, yup. you're a couple days late to the party :P | 07:58 |
| RST38h | that is extreme marketing =) | 07:58 |
| RST38h | johnx: I was in the air and otherwise in transit | 07:58 |
| johnx | no excuse :P | 07:59 |
| disco_stu | wow.. you can get it for free.. that's awesome | 08:00 |
| johnx | s/free/subsidized/ | 08:00 |
| RST38h | uk maemians are suddenly quiet and pacified? | 08:00 |
| disco_stu | johnx, how much per month? | 08:01 |
| johnx | 30GBP | 08:01 |
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| johnx | go check out the site though :P | 08:02 |
| johnx | I don't even live in the UK | 08:02 |
| RST38h | hard to beat that...if n900 works of course | 08:02 |
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| disco_stuN800 | £30.. wow.. living in AR is shit :-( | 08:03 |
| RST38h | US offer of $582 unsubsidized is also not that bad | 08:04 |
| johnx | I'd have to pay ~$50/month for the minimum voice plan + t-zones data | 08:05 |
| RST38h | johnx: I can't get 3G at all around here, not until they figured out with the military. | 08:06 |
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| johnx | RST38h, yeah, that was the hold-up on t-mo's US 3G as well | 08:06 |
| johnx | really, the whole global frequency allocation situation is a massive clusterfuck | 08:07 |
| RST38h | there is no global frequency allocation, every country has its own =) | 08:07 |
| johnx | yes, that's what I mean | 08:07 |
| RST38h | + there are weird limitations on reception, with US still having that Newt Gingrich law | 08:08 |
| johnx | what? | 08:08 |
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| RST38h | johnx: Long time ago, some journo overheard details of Newt's private life by listening to the analog cell phone band | 08:09 |
| RST38h | johnx: So congress made a law prohibiting unauthorized reception in the 850-900Mhz band | 08:10 |
| johnx | ah | 08:10 |
| johnx | heh | 08:10 |
| RST38h | Which is kinda silly nowadays :) | 08:10 |
| johnx | yeah, just like laws that keep you from tying up your horses within a certain proximity to the opera house entrances | 08:11 |
| RST38h | johnx: yes, except that nobody has a horse now, but everyone who wants a full-range scanner has to buy contraband | 08:16 |
| johnx | i bet there's more of the first group than the second | 08:16 |
| RST38h | johnx: Prolly not, given that horses are way bigger and hungrier than scanners :) | 08:16 |
| johnx | (also, I of course just made that horse/opera law up) | 08:16 |
| RST38h | ah, there is plenty of these, the latest ones regulating the use of laser pointers | 08:17 |
| johnx | RST38h, let's put it this way: I know lots of people with one or more horses. I don't know anyone with a full range radio scanner | 08:17 |
| disco_stuN800 | i've got a 500mW pointer that sets things on fire. with a law i wouldn't be able to use it | 08:18 |
| RST38h | johnx: they are easily concealed :) | 08:19 |
| RST38h | johnx: But I bet 2/3 HAM people have one | 08:19 |
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| RST38h | disco: Actually, you can own it, but using it in public is considered some kind of offence (I do not remember details) | 08:20 |
| johnx | s/full range radio scanner/ham radio/ | 08:20 |
| infobot | johnx meant: RST38h, let's put it this way: I know lots of people with one or more horses. I don't know anyone with a ham radio | 08:20 |
| RST38h | johnx: Hiding! =) | 08:22 |
| * RST38h only knows one person with horses and another guy with sheep. | 08:22 | |
| johnx | RST38h, sorry, but I kinda feel like ham radio operators are a dying breed | 08:22 |
| RST38h | johnx: More or less, yes | 08:23 |
| RST38h | johnx: But far from dead yet. | 08:23 |
| RST38h | I guess bowling parlors will go first =) | 08:23 |
| johnx | heh | 08:23 |
| johnx | depends on your locality | 08:23 |
| johnx | they're still doing great around here | 08:24 |
| RST38h | johnx: Guess so, NPR had a segment on their inevitable extinction a few years ago | 08:24 |
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| johnx | RST38h, we still have a drive-in movie theater in this area | 08:45 |
| johnx | more surprisingly: it's really popular | 08:45 |
| jaska | O.o | 08:45 |
| johnx | yeah, crazy huh? | 08:45 |
| jaska | only seen those in american movies | 08:45 |
| qwerty12_N810 | johnx: only *you* still frequenting it does not make it popular :p | 08:45 |
| johnx | qwerty12_N810, it was 90%+ full last time I went | 08:46 |
| johnx | jaska, in America you see american movies in drive in :D | 08:46 |
| jaska | and in those american movies you see drive-in theaters! | 08:46 |
| johnx | eh | 08:47 |
| jaska | (pushing it further) | 08:47 |
| johnx | not usually :P | 08:47 |
| jaska | not usually true, 4h sleep makes me make even less sense than usual | 08:47 |
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| thux | some reason python apps doesn't seem to run in my diablo | 09:51 |
| thux | tried mnotes and keepnote | 09:52 |
| johnx | thux, tried running any from the command line? | 09:52 |
| thux | yes some dom module import problem | 09:53 |
| johnx | did you see if that module is missing? tried reinstalling python? | 09:53 |
| thux | what app you use for notes? | 09:53 |
| johnx | quicknote | 09:54 |
| johnx | but it's python :) | 09:54 |
| thux | hehe | 09:54 |
| thux | mcalender seems to run thou | 09:54 |
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| thux | johnx: quicknote seems to run thanks | 09:58 |
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| wazd_ | hello Maemo | 10:21 |
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| keesj | Hello world | 10:30 |
| wazd | keesj: heya | 10:30 |
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| RST38h | moo wazd | 10:33 |
| wazd | RST38h: heya | 10:37 |
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| keesj | wazd is the world! | 10:44 |
| wazd | keesj: news to you? :D | 10:45 |
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| keesj | perhaps he is just a council member representing the world, or some decotator design pattern | 10:46 |
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| Stskeeps | wazd for council~! | 10:51 |
| johnx | it's 2009. why don't I have a good way of wirelessly displaying an image on my TV from my handheld? | 10:51 |
| johnx | (looking for ideas, workarounds, projects people have heard of) | 10:52 |
| keesj | the picoflamego stuff perhaps? | 10:52 |
| johnx | never heard of that (and tried googling it with no success). what is it? | 10:53 |
| keesj | http://community.papermint-designs.com/ | 10:53 |
| keesj | http://papermint-designs.com/community/?q=node/38 | 10:53 |
| alterego | johnx, I'm working on something like that with UPnP. | 10:54 |
| keesj | a beagleboard.org idea contest winner for a wireless presentation system | 10:54 |
| johnx | alterego, ah! very cool. so what's the scope? | 10:54 |
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| alterego | And by something like that, exactly like that ;) | 10:54 |
| johnx | keesj, alterego. thanks very much for the quick responses. I've been beating my head against a wall trying to think of a good way to do this :) | 10:54 |
| alterego | Not just images though, the idea is to be able to send URI's to different devices connected on a UPnP network, for instance, I could be looking at a web page on my tablet and want to view it on my laptop, I just cut and paste it into a widget and it tells me what devices are capable of web browsing. | 10:55 |
| alterego | Same with images, youtube videos, all sorts of stuff. | 10:55 |
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| wazd | that omap Zoom 2 costs about 800 bucks as I recall | 10:55 |
| wazd | better buy n900 :DD | 10:56 |
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| keesj | nice price right :p | 10:56 |
| johnx | so, pretty generalized? what about sending it a vnc:// URL? | 10:56 |
| alterego | Maybe :) | 10:56 |
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| johnx | hmm, now the other part is moving windows between x servers without an app restart that loses state | 10:58 |
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| johnx | or maybe there's a different way | 10:58 |
| wazd | oooh | 10:58 |
| wazd | $1150 :D | 10:58 |
| wazd | 2 n900's :) | 10:58 |
| johnx | or an n900 and a sharp netwalker, and a netbook to round it out :) | 10:59 |
| wazd | that's kinda wrong POV on developer attraction :) | 11:00 |
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| wazd | but at least it's shiny :) | 11:00 |
| johnx | alterego, sooo, how's that going? | 11:00 |
| alterego | The extensions are available in X now to do that, unfortunately not everyone is taking advantage of it yet, Just a handful of applications provide that functionality, | 11:00 |
| johnx | yeah, libdisplaymigration | 11:00 |
| johnx | I assume you're referring to that? | 11:01 |
| alterego | johnx: hopefully have something usable by Christmas, work is pretty insane for me. | 11:01 |
| johnx | definitely understand that :) | 11:01 |
| alterego | Not sure if that is it exactly ;) | 11:01 |
| alterego | What I'm thinking of is something that is actually in X11, though, without reading abotu that library, it might be a nice abstraction layer for that same extension :) | 11:02 |
| johnx | it calls itself "display migration support for gtk" | 11:02 |
| johnx | so maybe not | 11:03 |
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| johnx | and it seems to be attached to a project that's kind of in hibernation ... | 11:03 |
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| alterego | Oh, | 11:05 |
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| * lcuk forgot about the council election o_O | 11:06 | |
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| alterego | I wonder how cross-platform that is, obviously Gtk is supposed to support Win32 etc. I wonder if it's possible there too, that'd be neat. | 11:06 |
| johnx | dunno | 11:07 |
| johnx | but it seems to be available from debian/ubuntu | 11:07 |
| johnx | so easy to find the source at least | 11:07 |
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| johnx | hmm, xmove appears unmaintained :( | 11:10 |
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| johnx | anyone here remember the sharp zaurus 5500? | 11:21 |
| johnx | BTW, if anyone here is on the qemu project (specifically qemu arm/armel): you guys rock really hard | 11:22 |
| RST38h | O fcourse | 11:22 |
| johnx | getting debian lenny on it :) | 11:23 |
| suihkulokki | z5500 was strongarm iirc? | 11:23 |
| johnx | yup | 11:23 |
| suihkulokki | then you need arm rather than armel port | 11:23 |
| johnx | yeah, debian lenny looks like the last debian/ubuntu release for it :) | 11:24 |
| johnx | I already debootstrap'ed | 11:24 |
| johnx | chroots just fine | 11:24 |
| johnx | making it bootable | 11:24 |
| johnx | then wifi, then ... i dunno, maybe run a little wiki on it or something | 11:24 |
| johnx | or maybe a upnp server that serves up files from NFS on my NAS | 11:24 |
| johnx | ideas? :D | 11:24 |
| suihkulokki | the next zaurii is more futureproof with a pxa cpu | 11:25 |
| johnx | got one of those as well :) | 11:25 |
| RST38h | still strongarm isn't it? | 11:25 |
| johnx | strongarm is an armv4 | 11:26 |
| alterego | PXA is StrongARM yeah | 11:26 |
| alterego | Intels abomination :P | 11:26 |
| RST38h | Marvell's | 11:26 |
| johnx | hmm, pxa25x and newer is armv5 | 11:26 |
| suihkulokki | pxa was armv5t + intel extenstions compared to strongarm's armv4 | 11:26 |
| RST38h | Although Intel still owns rights and produces some specialized XScales | 11:26 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 11:26 |
| Stskeeps | morn jaffa | 11:27 |
| johnx | mornin' Jaffa | 11:27 |
| alterego | Goat moaning. | 11:27 |
| johnx | ah well, I think lenny will be a fitting final distro for my little zaurus | 11:29 |
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| Jaffa | Have I missed nything in the last week? | 11:33 |
| johnx | i guess that's a 'not really' | 11:33 |
| * lbt checks backlogs | 11:33 | |
| johnx | there's some discussion about whether the n900 will have usb host | 11:34 |
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| RST38h | johnx: it charges from that connector, so the answer is most likely no | 11:34 |
| lbt | with quim saying "It won't" | 11:34 |
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| johnx | i bet half my karma points it'll be activated with a software hack/change | 11:35 |
| SpeedEvil | lbt: other than the comments to the mailing list? | 11:35 |
| lbt | no | 11:35 |
| RST38h | johnx: it will require schematics change | 11:36 |
| SpeedEvil | There is debate if it can be hacked - if it's an external cable and power, and just software or something impossible. | 11:36 |
| johnx | RST38h, that's an interesting comment. why do you say that? | 11:36 |
| lbt | it was clearly intended to support otg | 11:36 |
| lbt | and the hardware will have been setup to do so | 11:36 |
| lbt | but the question is | 11:36 |
| lbt | was there a board mod late(ish) in the design | 11:37 |
| SpeedEvil | Or were there bugs that weren't fixed. | 11:37 |
| lbt | that can't be worked around | 11:37 |
| lbt | SpeedEvil: yep - but most important is whether the issue is HW/SW | 11:37 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 11:37 |
| SpeedEvil | hw bugs of course I mean :) | 11:38 |
| lbt | also, the follow on from Ingor(?) implied that the certification process | 11:38 |
| lbt | may have affected things | 11:38 |
| RST38h | johnx: Quim says so AFAIK | 11:38 |
| lbt | so it may be playing dead | 11:38 |
| RST38h | lbt: The name is Igor | 11:38 |
| lbt | Ingo/Igor... too confusing ;) | 11:38 |
| johnx | RST38h, I read his comments as well, and my bet stands. | 11:38 |
| RST38h | lbt: When in doubt, refer to the Frankenstein | 11:38 |
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| RST38h | johnx: Well, we will find out soon enough =) | 11:39 |
| lbt | I usually get the vowels right DWR28i | 11:39 |
| johnx | any takers on the bet? we can get someone at m.o to move the karma, right? | 11:39 |
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| * lbt checks johnx's karma.... | 11:39 | |
| johnx | the real question is: without any hardware changes, can usb mode be made to work *reliably* :) | 11:39 |
| johnx | I'll make *no* bets on that | 11:40 |
| lbt | oh, wait, I'm on your side | 11:40 |
| * RST38h would like someone at m.o, namely XFade, to do something about non-free uploads to fremantle extras-testing | 11:40 | |
| lbt | johnx: usb-mode... do you mean full auto OTG ? | 11:40 |
| johnx | auto won't happen | 11:40 |
| lbt | or SW toggled host/client ? | 11:40 |
| RST38h | manual otg will do | 11:40 |
| johnx | the sense wire can't be brought out to a micro-b socket | 11:40 |
| lbt | yeah - I'd be happy with a manual toggle | 11:41 |
| lbt | johnx: see, I'm not a HW geek | 11:41 |
| johnx | I started learning about the ways OTG can be sub-optimal as far back as 2005 :) | 11:42 |
| * Corsac thinks about discharging DSLR to n900 | 11:43 | |
| lbt | Corsac: indeed | 11:43 |
| lbt | or a usb printer :( | 11:43 |
| lbt | although cups... | 11:43 |
| johnx | usb printers often have host mode ... | 11:43 |
| johnx | in that case, your answer is simple :) | 11:44 |
| Corsac | though using sd-card it should be possible to do that | 11:44 |
| Corsac | except my 350d doesn't really use sd-card ;p | 11:44 |
| johnx | as for DSLRs, those wifi-enabled cards are pretty neat | 11:44 |
| johnx | there are CF->SDHC adapters | 11:44 |
| johnx | not too expensive either | 11:44 |
| * johnx <3 CF | 11:45 | |
| SpeedEvil | There are SD->wifi adaptors. | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Silly. | 11:45 |
| Corsac | johnx: which would fit in a CF slot? | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | oh | 11:45 |
| Corsac | that's nice | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: yes | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | err | 11:45 |
| johnx | Corsac, yup :) | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Corsac: yes | 11:45 |
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| johnx | I'm lost O_o | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Ebay works well. | 11:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Just search for x y converter. | 11:46 |
| SpeedEvil | And it tells you if they exist. | 11:46 |
| johnx | or google shopping | 11:46 |
| johnx | kinda hate ebay | 11:46 |
| johnx | but you're right. good way to check something exists | 11:46 |
| SpeedEvil | better for searching IMO - but I do way too much shopping on ebay. | 11:46 |
| Corsac | that's nice | 11:47 |
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| Corsac | when I receive my TB and my n900 I'll have to do quite some sd-related shopping | 11:47 |
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| SpeedEvil | There are even several n900s on ebay.co.uk. Though nobody stating that it's not a preorder. | 11:48 |
| SpeedEvil | Oh - one. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEC-N900-Credit-Card-Size-Phone_W0QQitemZ300348257557QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_MobilePhones_MobilePhones?hash=item45ee26b515&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 :) | 11:48 |
| Corsac | hmhm the subsidized n900s I found in france are stated for "end of october" | 11:48 |
| Corsac | expansys has oct 19 | 11:49 |
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| suihkulokki | has anyone experience with this or some similar device (with bigger battery, solar charging not needed) http://www.usbfever.com/index_eproduct_view.php?products_id=1340# | 11:50 |
| alterego | Whoops ^_^ | 11:50 |
| SpeedEvil | suihkulokki: dealextreme.com have some larger ones | 11:52 |
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| SpeedEvil | suihkulokki: I don't know anything about the quality though - look at the reviews | 11:53 |
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| johnx | sooo, if the nokia travel agent got me tickets that depart amsterdam on the 12th does that mean I should find my own lodging for the night of the 11th? | 11:58 |
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| lbt | only if you snore | 12:00 |
| lbt | or your roommate gets lucky | 12:01 |
| Jaffa | johnx: 3 nights accomodation is paid for, IIRC. So depends on when you arrive | 12:01 |
| alterego | scht, the touch screen on my N810 is broken O_O | 12:01 |
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| SpeedEvil | :/ Actually cracked - or stopped working? | 12:01 |
| alterego | Stoppe dworking. | 12:01 |
| alterego | The screen works, it just isn't responsive to touch >_< | 12:02 |
| johnx | Jaffa, well, guess it's a hostel for me. :) I'm not going to complain. I bet that the flight-pool nokia's travel agent could draw from was pretty limited | 12:02 |
| johnx | and I have no problem finding something to do at night in a foreign country :D | 12:02 |
| SpeedEvil | Reboot, and then if that doesn't help - stuff trapped round the outside of the screen bezel look for. | 12:02 |
| SpeedEvil | .nl does have a few recreational opportunities. | 12:02 |
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| Jaffa | johnx: I'm getting a 6am flight on the Thursday, and arrive in Amsterdam at 0820. And then leave Sunday night at 2120. Long time for me! | 12:03 |
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| johnx | I arrive right at the same time | 12:03 |
| johnx | but my flight out is ~10AM monday | 12:03 |
| SpeedEvil | The Van Gogh museum? | 12:04 |
| johnx | how did you guess? | 12:04 |
| lbt | johnx: there was a thread on this... summary: be sensible and minimise cost but you're covered | 12:04 |
| johnx | lbt, i read one of the threads, but I guess I didn't understand if there was a real conclusion | 12:05 |
| alterego | Crap, now it's off my half an inch ^_^ | 12:05 |
| johnx | freudian slip? | 12:05 |
| lbt | alterego: there's a calibaration tool | 12:05 |
| lbt | johnx: yep. | 12:05 |
| johnx | anyways, I'll just get a youth hostel. that's no big burden :) | 12:06 |
| lbt | The problem johnx is that people are used to dealing with dipshit companies | 12:06 |
| alterego | Unfortunately that fails, as it wants me to tap "closer" to the calibration points O_O | 12:06 |
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| johnx | alterego, is it warm? | 12:06 |
| lbt | and Nokia/council are being rational/sane | 12:06 |
| alterego | No | 12:06 |
| johnx | did you drop it recently? | 12:06 |
| alterego | No | 12:06 |
| alterego | I guess I might have knocked it, but I don't remember it happening. | 12:06 |
| johnx | try squeezing the top and bottom together gently, but firmly | 12:06 |
| johnx | top = side with the zoom buttons | 12:07 |
| alterego | Yer | 12:07 |
| alterego | Tried all that. | 12:07 |
| johnx | bring it to the summit and swap it for a nokia employee's n810 when no one is looking :) | 12:08 |
| SpeedEvil | Is it easy enough to dissasemble? | 12:08 |
| alterego | Relatively. | 12:08 |
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| alterego | I might fly to NY, break into the flag ship store and steal their N9-00 ^_^ | 12:09 |
| Corsac | johnx: nokia employee's all have n900 now! | 12:09 |
| johnx | then they won't miss their n810! | 12:09 |
| * RST38h missed tekojo =( | 12:10 | |
| RST38h | ...recent glitch during the move of a number of colleges onto Google's email service that allowed a number of students to see each others' inboxes for a period of more than three days... | 12:12 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, yikes! | 12:59 |
| lcuk | johnx, n810 still has a future, just as the 770 is used by many people. | 13:00 |
| lcuk | different uses now, one of my 810s is being kept charged in the car for gps purposes | 13:00 |
| lcuk | the other will be the first attempt at wall mounted liqbase :) | 13:00 |
| RST38h | lcuk: It was a fff... ffff... feature. | 13:01 |
| lcuk | collaborative email! | 13:01 |
| ccooke | RST38h: How did they manage to convince anyone of that? | 13:01 |
| RST38h | ccooke: I guess they only needed to convince a manager | 13:01 |
| RST38h | And that is usually easy | 13:01 |
| ccooke | *sigh* poin | 13:01 |
| ccooke | t | 13:01 |
| RST38h | the non-working vkbd thing is actually promising to be way funnier | 13:02 |
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| RST38h | But I need to check one more thing before I follow up on that | 13:02 |
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| keesj | johnx: nokia employee's all have n900 now! .. thats WoW | 13:03 |
| RST38h | Word Of Warcraft on N900s? Please? | 13:03 |
| Myrtti | lollers | 13:04 |
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| RST38h | ! | 13:04 |
| ccooke | RST38h: technically doable, actually | 13:05 |
| lcuk | i hope nokia supply branded sickbags | 13:05 |
| RST38h | ccooke: just reuse the damn palette from S60 | 13:05 |
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| * lcuk wants unreal tournament before WoW | 13:06 | |
| RST38h | ccooke: it works well, keeps recently used chars on top of the list... | 13:06 |
| * RST38h will be quite satisfied with Angband, really | 13:06 | |
| ccooke | RST38h: I've never really used an S60 phone... Hell, last night was probably the longest I've used one, and I was mainly playing with the keyboard :-) | 13:07 |
| RST38h | they are usually ok, although some iPho^H^H^Hpeople find them boring =) | 13:07 |
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| ccooke | I wasn't impressed with the interface on the n97 mini. It wasted a huge amount of screen space with a five button menu-bar on the right... which usually had no more than two buttons on it. | 13:08 |
| lcuk | ccooke, isnt that the same as the dialog boxes on maemo | 13:09 |
| ccooke | er... not in any way I understand | 13:10 |
| ccooke | it was always present in the apps | 13:10 |
| lcuk | ahhh - photos or it didnt happen | 13:10 |
| lcuk | i suppose things like that make you want to push maemo onto the n97 hardware ;) | 13:10 |
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| ccooke | to be honest, it's nothing new - IIRC the e90 a friend showed me ages ago had the same thing | 13:12 |
| lcuk | fair enough | 13:13 |
| ccooke | and I am perfectly willing to believe that my rabid desire for MOAR SCREEN is not universal. | 13:13 |
| lcuk | i have a strong desire for moar screen too :) | 13:14 |
| lcuk | and im trying to build technical capabilities to achieve that :) | 13:14 |
| ccooke | (Actually, MOAR PIXELS. I don't think I'm all that bothered by reducing the screen to 3.5") | 13:14 |
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| * lcuk wants collaborative networked cells of nXXX devices working together | 13:15 | |
| lcuk | ccooke, ever since i did this: http://liqbase.net/double_tiny.JPG | 13:16 |
| ccooke | with a unified screen buffer windowing onto a larger virtual screen, using fine-grained triangulation to make each nXXX display exactly the bit it's over? | 13:16 |
| lcuk | the layout in a grid could be done in 2 ways | 13:17 |
| lcuk | theres no real way for them to communicate and talk and know their overall location (nothing sensitive enough) | 13:17 |
| ccooke | (admittedly, that would require the GPS and accelerometer, so n900 only :-/) | 13:17 |
| lcuk | i considered bt signal strength and audio chirps and cflasses | 13:17 |
| lcuk | flashes | 13:17 |
| ccooke | hmm | 13:17 |
| lcuk | but the best way i could come up with to allow one of the cells to know its position in a massive grid | 13:18 |
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| lcuk | hold a barcode/unit square bove the devices | 13:18 |
| lcuk | let them take a pic of the unitsquare | 13:18 |
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| ccooke | wthat could do it, yeah | 13:18 |
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| lcuk | and the position/size of the unit square gives the relative position in the overall grid | 13:18 |
| lcuk | and its almost zeroconf | 13:19 |
| ccooke | it's limited to the n900 again, though | 13:19 |
| lcuk | no | 13:19 |
| lcuk | n810 has camera facing right direction | 13:19 |
| ccooke | you'd need a good camera on the back of the device, surely? | 13:19 |
| lcuk | you are thinking the wrong way | 13:19 |
| lcuk | this is to get a collaborative single surface for drawing on or displaying stuff | 13:19 |
| wazd_n800 | reheya all | 13:20 |
| lcuk | drawing is then fun! draw on one, and it transmits a bit of a combined sketch to the others | 13:20 |
| lcuk | what those others do with the sketch is upto them.. | 13:20 |
| lcuk | hiya wazd_n800 | 13:20 |
| Robot101 | this should sooooooo be like telepathy :) | 13:20 |
| lcuk | lol Robot101 does telepathy do multicast lan communications? | 13:21 |
| Robot101 | yes | 13:21 |
| * lcuk is in process of using opensoundcontrol as a backend atm | 13:21 | |
| lcuk | ooooh | 13:21 |
| Robot101 | salut has a reliable multicast layer called clique, with retransmissions | 13:21 |
| Robot101 | if you set up a d-bus tube with a room, you can invite people on the local network into it | 13:21 |
| lcuk | lol multicast udp with retransmissions is tcp isnt it | 13:22 |
| lcuk | this is zero conf | 13:22 |
| Robot101 | no, because its multicast | 13:22 |
| Robot101 | yes, so is salut | 13:22 |
| lcuk | as long as they are on the same lan it works | 13:22 |
| Robot101 | you can still lose packets on a LAN | 13:22 |
| * lcuk nods | 13:22 | |
| lcuk | we dealt with it for onedotzero too | 13:22 |
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| lcuk | there it was tested and proven between multiple n900s and multiple big iron pcs for the heavy rendering | 13:23 |
| lcuk | worked well, apart from the random times tv cameras were pointed at us! | 13:23 |
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| lcuk | Robot101, there are some very cool things your telepathy backend will come in handy for | 13:24 |
| lcuk | collaborative sketching and stuff off the lan | 13:24 |
| lcuk | and across the world | 13:24 |
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| wazd_n800 | meaning of collaborative sketching for the world is exagerated :) Tic-tac-toe, that's all :) | 13:27 |
| lcuk | Robot101, is telephathy having a qt interface? | 13:27 |
| lcuk | lol wazd_n800 of course i mean tictactoe - what other use of collaborative sketching is there | 13:27 |
| zerojay | Robot101: Any idea if Jonny's close to having the UI configuration stuff done for the telepathy plugins yet? I'm missing butterfly badly. ;)0 | 13:28 |
| lcuk | its something people of all ages and languages and backgrounds know how to play - it crosses more boundaries than any corporate text and connects us at a low level :) | 13:28 |
| * lcuk plays tictactoe with jacob often :) | 13:29 | |
| wazd_n800 | it crosses and circles :D | 13:29 |
| lcuk | lines in the sand :) | 13:29 |
| lcuk | i just dont know how to get it all working on my own - i am out of time, out of money, out of a job. | 13:31 |
| lcuk | ill bbl | 13:31 |
| wazd_n800 | Ported skype plugin for collaborative work would be great though. I forgot the name | 13:32 |
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| wazd_n800 | my chances to avoid army dramaticaly increased btw :) | 13:34 |
| zerojay | wazd_n800: Told 'em you like men? lol | 13:35 |
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| Stskeeps | wazd_n800: sued them? | 13:41 |
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| wazd_n800 | Stskeeps, nope, found medical solution | 13:45 |
| Stskeeps | taking antidepressives? | 13:47 |
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| thux | wazd_n800: you don't like the army? here in fi even women go army even they don't have to | 13:47 |
| RST38h | wazd: getting passport? | 13:48 |
| Myrtti | I'd go, but I'm too old | 13:48 |
| Stskeeps | russian army? :P | 13:48 |
| RST38h | possibilities for disaster boggle the mind... | 13:48 |
| wazd_n800 | thux, I'd love to serve, not in russian army though | 13:49 |
| wazd_n800 | RST38h, not yet | 13:49 |
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| wazd_n800 | in soviet russia army serves you | 13:49 |
| thux | what is wrong with famous red army? is it now worst than sovjet times? | 13:50 |
| RST38h | thux: hazing, having to participate in dangerous civil conflicts | 13:51 |
| thux | ok i see | 13:51 |
| RST38h | bad food, bad clothing, usually bad weather | 13:52 |
| thux | i have only see couple sukhoi pilots visiting here, they seem to do ok | 13:53 |
| wazd_n800 | thux, red army has nothing common with russian one :) | 13:53 |
| thux | ok :) | 13:54 |
| wazd_n800 | thux, you don't need to visit battlefield to be dead in RA :) | 13:55 |
| RST38h | thix" Pilots != Army | 13:55 |
| thux | they didn't even took coffee before flight show | 13:57 |
| adeus | hmm what did I update incorrectly now.. | 13:58 |
| adeus | /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.9' not found | 13:58 |
| thux | said "we don't do drugs' as if coffee were drug? | 13:59 |
| RST38h | it is not? | 14:01 |
| thux | i don't know, we use it a lot here iin fi | 14:01 |
| zerojay | Is .fi's army an active one? I don't think I've ever heard about them being in any of the warzones out there. | 14:03 |
| Myrtti | we have active conscription army | 14:04 |
| Myrtti | "defensive forces" | 14:04 |
| zerojay | Ah.. yeah, just defending... okay, makes sense. | 14:04 |
| thux | zerojay: in wwII we participe | 14:05 |
| zerojay | thux: I have no doubt. I just never heard of fi participating in anything recently and I was trying to see if that was because I'm in North America (the "ME ME" capital of the world) or because they haven't participated in anything for a while. | 14:06 |
| Myrtti | UN troups in Afganistan and other peacekeeping stuff though | 14:06 |
| suihkulokki | one of the russian friend said he saved money for years to have enough to bribe his way of the army.. his friend didn't and ended up Chechnya | 14:06 |
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| thux | in us you don't have to go army? | 14:09 |
| zerojay | Not unless there's a draft. | 14:09 |
| thux | and draft was last in vietnam war time? | 14:10 |
| zerojay | Believe so. | 14:10 |
| thux | ok | 14:10 |
| zerojay | One of my friends joined and ended up shipped to Afghanistan for a year or two. | 14:10 |
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| RST38h | suihkulokki: Very touching, but it usually does not get THIS bad :) | 14:11 |
| RST38h | thux: Yes. Where they learned the hard way what draft does to public opinion. | 14:11 |
| derf | With the current political climate, there will not be another draft in this country until WWIII. | 14:12 |
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| thux | for ict people could have electronic war troops | 14:13 |
| thux | where weapons were laptops :) | 14:14 |
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| seba | hi there folks! Does anyone know possible cause of not having net connection in latest maemo5 running under scratchbox? | 14:38 |
| seba | testing applications with xephyr i cant connect to internet from any app | 14:38 |
| Mek | no net conneciton, or just not resolving any hostnames? | 14:43 |
| Mek | if hostnames is the problem, check if /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf is correct | 14:43 |
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| jjo | the applications might need the resolv.conf on the target to be correct also | 14:45 |
| seba | cat /etc/resolv.conf | 14:46 |
| seba | nameserver 127.0.0.1 | 14:46 |
| Mek | yeah, but as far as I know, /etc/resolv.conf inside scratchbox is usually ignored, and whatever is in /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf (both from inside and outside scratchbox in the same path) is what is used | 14:46 |
| seba | apt-get update from xterminal shows 'Temporary failure resolving repository.maemo.org' etc | 14:47 |
| lcuk | hiya mek \o | 14:47 |
| jumpula | the host tools use /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf | 14:47 |
| Mek | lcuk: hi :) | 14:48 |
| jumpula | and stuff that's on target (rootstraps) use /etc/resolv.conf | 14:48 |
| lcuk | hows it goin in qt land then | 14:48 |
| Mek | lcuk: well, the thing I've been somewhat involved with (koffice on maemo) is at least no longer a complete secret :) | 14:48 |
| jumpula | device has dnsmasq running, hence the nameserver 127.0.0.1 | 14:48 |
| lcuk | excellent! | 14:49 |
| lcuk | you are coming to the summit i gather | 14:49 |
| Mek | yeah | 14:49 |
| adeus | http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N810wimax.php | 14:49 |
| lcuk | :D top banana | 14:49 |
| adeus | can someone use that? | 14:49 |
| seba | mh. what to do... I haven't change anything after install | 14:49 |
| lcuk | adeus, im sure some folks can | 14:50 |
| lcuk | but from what i understand the wimax rollout was rolled back up again. tho it looks like its making a comeback | 14:50 |
| adeus | arr | 14:50 |
| adeus | doh wimax | 14:51 |
| adeus | how did I click that | 14:51 |
| lcuk | mek, the interesting stuff on the ML recently about simplified qt classes and widgetsets makes me smile :) | 14:51 |
| jjo | seba: you might want to copy /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf to /etc/resolv.conf inside scratchbox | 14:51 |
| jjo | on the target you want to use the applications | 14:51 |
| adeus | my qt app suddenly stopped to work on the device, I get that glibc version error | 14:52 |
| Mek | lcuk: yeah, not that I've been following it much, but to get the office viewer thing look somewhat native was quite an interesting experience... | 14:52 |
| lcuk | heh @ "interesting" | 14:52 |
| lcuk | i bet you sweated and strained for ages with it - but i have confidence you will have done a great job | 14:53 |
| lcuk | mek, i have been trying something completely different.. | 14:54 |
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| lcuk | have a look, im trying to expand on the idea atm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk27PenpAz0 | 14:54 |
| seba | jjo: that helped! thanks a lot! | 14:55 |
| Mek | ah, looks cool | 14:55 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: It definitely works better when the music's loud and the booze has been flowing. | 15:01 |
| lcuk | hahaha yeah | 15:01 |
| lcuk | then i shall supply a voucher for beer with every download! | 15:02 |
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| aSIMULAtor | o hai | 15:11 |
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| lcuk | hiya aSIMULAter \o | 15:13 |
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| dneary | hi de hi | 15:27 |
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| lulzmachine | ok so I'm going to start a project on the n810... i'll be running in a couple of different processes, how do u suggest I keep a common data store? is running a postgres db a bad idea? | 15:57 |
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| lulzmachine | I guess I could try to do some tricking to get sqlite to run, but it doesn't love concurrency | 15:58 |
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| RST38h | sqlite. | 15:58 |
| RST38h | add a lock. | 15:58 |
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| adeus | sqlite doesn't lock the data for you? | 16:00 |
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| dneary | crashanddie_: In that case, nothing to do with me | 16:35 |
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| crashanddie_ | sorry, got pulled in on a call | 16:42 |
| crashanddie_ | dneary: I don't know if you have anything to do with it, your name just seemed to pop up into my mind when thinking of the summit organisers | 16:43 |
| dneary | crashanddie_: Thanks for the vote of confidence | 16:43 |
| crashanddie_ | dneary: tu sais tres bien que j'ai rien contre toi specifiquement | 16:43 |
| dneary | And the nice way of bringing up the issue | 16:43 |
| dneary | crashanddie_: Ouaip | 16:43 |
| crashanddie_ | dneary: well you nailed it in your first response "frsutration" | 16:44 |
| LoCusF | is there any other alternative for file choosing dialog than GtkFileChooserDialog on diablo? | 16:44 |
| crashanddie_ | s/frsutration/frustration/ | 16:44 |
| infobot | crashanddie_ meant: dneary: well you nailed it in your first response "frustration" | 16:44 |
| dneary | crashanddie_: I guess you didn't see my blog post? | 16:44 |
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| LoCusF | HildonFileChooserDialog is not available for diablo, although it is for fremantle | 16:45 |
| qwerty12 | LoCusF: Erm: http://maemo.org/api_refs/4.1/libhildonfm-2.0.5/HildonFileChooserDialog.html | 16:45 |
| crashanddie_ | dneary: I don't follow blogs other than my own, and when I register for an event, give all my details 2 times in a row, i expect to receive an email when I get booted off the list | 16:45 |
| dneary | crashanddie_: So you've decided you were kicked off? | 16:45 |
| dneary | No chance it was an oversight? | 16:45 |
| dneary | An accident? | 16:45 |
| crashanddie_ | does it matter? | 16:45 |
| dneary | Something which will be rectified when you send an email to the right person? | 16:46 |
| crashanddie_ | the end result is the same, isn't it? | 16:46 |
| dneary | (who would be Quim, I think) | 16:46 |
| LoCusF | oh its in hildon-fm :) | 16:46 |
| LoCusF | qwerty12: thanks :) | 16:46 |
| crashanddie_ | well if it's Quim, there's no chance in hell I'm going to get added... | 16:46 |
| dneary | "the end result" is October 9/10/11 | 16:46 |
| dneary | So it's up to you what happens next | 16:46 |
| qwerty12 | LoCusF: :) | 16:47 |
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| pupnik_ | "The role of the council is not to say "you should read this, this, this, this, this and that". It's to ensure that people following any of the mailing lists, planet.maemo.org, maemo.org news, the council blog, the wiki, meeting logs, IRC or ITT/talk are aware of what's going on." - Jaffa | 16:47 |
| wazd | konttori_: heya, around? :) | 16:47 |
| pupnik_ | never thought of that aspect before | 16:48 |
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| konttori_ | wazd, yeah | 16:48 |
| konttori_ | at work | 16:48 |
| crashanddie_ | dneary: thanks, I'll sort it out | 16:48 |
| dneary | crashanddie_: You're welcome | 16:49 |
| wazd | konttori_: I have another stupid question bout template, sorry I've no device and I've never seen Fremantle live so I don't know how everything acts :) | 16:49 |
| wazd | konttori_: what is "control bar"? | 16:49 |
| VDVsx | crashanddie_, ping X-Fade_ about that, he's the responsible for the registration process | 16:50 |
| konttori_ | umm.... care to point what you mean? what part of the template? | 16:50 |
| wazd | konttori_: far left | 16:51 |
| wazd | konttori_: right next to checkboxes and stuff | 16:51 |
| konttori_ | oh. that. | 16:51 |
| konttori_ | no recollection. sorry | 16:51 |
| wazd | konttori_: two weird looking icons and weird looking something :D | 16:51 |
| Macer | hello! | 16:51 |
| konttori_ | i'll ask around | 16:51 |
| wazd | konttori_: cool :) | 16:51 |
| wazd | Macer: heya | 16:51 |
| Macer | hm... i had to go to work | 16:52 |
| Macer | how lame | 16:52 |
| wazd | Macer: cya :D | 16:52 |
| dneary | crashanddie_: http://blogs.gnome.org/bolsh/2009/09/10/frustration/ | 16:52 |
| Macer | haha | 16:52 |
| Macer | no | 16:52 |
| Macer | i'm there now | 16:52 |
| wazd | Macer: heya again :D :D | 16:52 |
| Macer | about to leave tho | 16:52 |
| Macer | 2 hours is enough | 16:52 |
| Macer | how i am not fat i will never know | 16:53 |
| Macer | :) | 16:53 |
| Macer | i haven't been to the gym in a while | 16:53 |
| Macer | and should be turning into a sloth | 16:53 |
| crashanddie_ | dneary: why specify a date for people who take care of their own accomodation and transport? | 16:54 |
| crashanddie_ | dneary, X-Fade_, VDVsx, lcuk: apologies, most sincere, utter, incredibly humble apologies | 16:58 |
| crashanddie_ | I kneel, I bow, I kiss the ground | 16:58 |
| crashanddie_ | please forget I ever brought this up | 16:58 |
| dneary | crashanddie_: Sorry? | 16:58 |
| crashanddie_ | and forget my conspiracy theories | 16:58 |
| crashanddie_ | ... | 16:59 |
| crashanddie_ | I'm on the bloody list | 16:59 |
| * qwerty12 claps, slowly | 16:59 | |
| * crashanddie_ hides | 16:59 | |
| dneary | dneary: Maybe one of the conspiracy theorists was in here & added you back after you complained, just to fuck with your head | 17:00 |
| crashanddie_ | no | 17:01 |
| crashanddie_ | i just need to learn to turn off "match case" in the firefox search feature | 17:01 |
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| dneary | crashanddie_: That's just what they want you to think | 17:01 |
| crashanddie_ | fair enough | 17:01 |
| crashanddie_ | anyway, back to work, again, sorry | 17:01 |
| * crashanddie_ goes to take his pills | 17:02 | |
| lopz | morning ;) | 17:03 |
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| Jaffa | crashanddie_: Tsk | 17:10 |
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| qwerty12 | You now see what kind of "man" you've invited to the Summit. Was this the right decision? | 17:11 |
| Jaffa | Standing down from the council obviously was ;-) | 17:12 |
| Jaffa | Last week, woohoo! :) | 17:12 |
| Jaffa | VDVsx et al FTW | 17:12 |
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| * qwerty12 asks penguinbait to get Jaffa a drink from the Maemo.org Council's bar | 17:13 | |
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| * Jaffa twitches | 17:14 | |
| RST38h | Jaffa: You are standing down? Why? Too much trouble? | 17:15 |
| qwerty12 | RST38h: It caused him a lot of stress. I mean, you have seen his hair? http://twitpic.com/g6smv | 17:16 |
| RST38h | qwerty12: You mean, playing Bounce caused him a lot of stress? =) | 17:19 |
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| qwerty12 | RST38h: Nonsense! Bounce is loveliness ^-^ | 17:20 |
| wazd | replace red ball with blue, crystals with rings and voi la! It's a Sonic! :D | 17:20 |
| AStorm | hmmh guys | 17:21 |
| AStorm | know any company making PCBs on demand? | 17:21 |
| AStorm | short series at most | 17:22 |
| AStorm | like, 10s | 17:22 |
| qwerty12 | AStorm: Sure, I have a friend in Nigeria. All he requires is a $100 deposit and he'll make $10,000 worth of PCBs | 17:22 |
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| Khertan | Hello ! | 17:23 |
| wazd | asedeno_work: tired of waiting for pandora and decided to make one yourself? :D | 17:23 |
| wazd | missed | 17:23 |
| wazd | AStorm: ^ | 17:23 |
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| asj_wrk- | AStorm: PCBpool in europe does it | 17:23 |
| ab | wazd, if I understand correctly, "Control bar" is about volume in status menu, see Hildon 2.2 UI Style Guide, page 17. | 17:23 |
| Khertan | http://japananim.canalblog.com/images/pandora_box_bronze_coffret_collector.jpg <<< ? | 17:23 |
| RST38h | Are these full-metal Pandora replicas for the diehard fans? | 17:25 |
| wazd | ab: oh, thanks | 17:25 |
| asj_wrk- | AStorm: they are about $150 for a standard size board, I can't remember the dims exactly, but we used to get about 10-20 of our PCBs on it. I have a chinese contact that's we've used and they can turn 100 pcbs for about 250 with overnight shipping to the US. Sometimes small run guys are expensive. | 17:25 |
| ab | wazd, you know where to find those docs, right? :) | 17:25 |
| wazd | ab: that's my bible :D | 17:26 |
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| ab | wazd, be careful with religion which places Nokia design gods above others :) | 17:27 |
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| RST38h | wazd: have you got screenshots of your theme already? =) | 17:28 |
| * RST38h overhears wazd doing something to the volume control | 17:28 | |
| wazd | RST38h: no, I can't make a .deb :) | 17:29 |
| RST38h | making a deb is not a problem, do you have the sdk already? | 17:30 |
| wazd | RST38h: funny joke :D | 17:30 |
| lcuk | you can make a screenshot tho | 17:30 |
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| AStorm | qwerty12: lol | 17:31 |
| AStorm | wazd: not pandora | 17:31 |
| AStorm | a battery power supply for mobile devices | 17:32 |
| AStorm | better than the ones on market (which almost invariably are heavy and require 4x AA) | 17:32 |
| RST38h | wazd: Ok, should I make a deb for you once I get home? | 17:32 |
| AStorm | i have just the perfect chip for that and other stuff | 17:32 |
| AStorm | and a PCB as well | 17:32 |
| AStorm | (the chip is by TI btw) | 17:33 |
| RST38h | but what is going to be the battery? | 17:33 |
| AStorm | 2x AAA I think, maybe more | 17:33 |
| pupnik_ | nice reference, pcb pool | 17:33 |
| AStorm | asj_wrk-: thanks :) | 17:33 |
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| wazd | RST38h: well, I haven't drawn that much to cause problems to others, maybe tomorrow? | 17:34 |
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| pupnik_ | AStorm: another nice timing problem: need an OS to flash onto boards before production run | 17:34 |
| AStorm | ffs, 50 Euro for 1dm^2? :> | 17:35 |
| RST38h | wazd: acknowledged | 17:35 |
| wazd | RST38h: great, thanks :) | 17:35 |
| AStorm | that's 10x10 cm | 17:35 |
| pupnik_ | that is a screwup that is solidly on their end | 17:35 |
| AStorm | should fit maybe 4 boards | 17:35 |
| AStorm | a bit expensive per part ;p | 17:35 |
| AStorm | (I could tighten up and make 6, but soldering by hand will become... far harder) | 17:36 |
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| asj_wrk- | I had good quality from pcb pool. Well, small run stuff is pricey. When we run boards we do it for $1.50/board with e-test but there's a $250 setup fee. | 17:36 |
| asj_wrk- | (or $400 setup for 6 layer stuff) | 17:36 |
| AStorm | ok wait | 17:37 |
| AStorm | they give a solder mask | 17:37 |
| AStorm | so I can tighten up easily and use hotair to solder | 17:37 |
| AStorm | mwhahaha | 17:37 |
| asj_wrk- | AStorm: you could just etch one at home with a laser printer if you have tons of time | 17:38 |
| asj_wrk- | (and don't need a solder mask) | 17:38 |
| AStorm | asj_wrk-: I know | 17:39 |
| AStorm | but I'm fresh out of supplies | 17:39 |
| asj_wrk- | aah | 17:39 |
| AStorm | and this PCB I want to make requires very good precision | 17:39 |
| AStorm | TSSOP and it's high frequency | 17:39 |
| AStorm | plus power. | 17:39 |
| Khertan | hum ... the actual council representant does register an other time ? | 17:39 |
| Khertan | strange | 17:39 |
| Khertan | s/does/doesn't | 17:40 |
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| AStorm | you know, SEPIC topology SPS | 17:40 |
| asj_wrk- | AStorm: what freq? | 17:40 |
| AStorm | as far as I can | 17:40 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: tssop isn't very small | 17:40 |
| AStorm | up to 2 MHz | 17:40 |
| asj_wrk- | heh ;) | 17:40 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: you can do that on a laser printer typically carefully - if you can do single layer design. | 17:40 |
| AStorm | but it's SPS, so stray inductance and capacitance are critical | 17:40 |
| AStorm | yes, I can. | 17:41 |
| SpeedEvil | Various people claim good results with toner transfer, or you can go photoresist. | 17:41 |
| RST38h | Etch by hand! | 17:42 |
| AStorm | I did photoresist earlier | 17:42 |
| AStorm | RST38h: can't do that really | 17:42 |
| SpeedEvil | hand-drawn is tricky for ssop pitch. | 17:42 |
| SpeedEvil | DIP is easy | 17:42 |
| AStorm | that's TSSOP, so even harder | 17:42 |
| SpeedEvil | T=thin | 17:43 |
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| AStorm | yep | 17:43 |
| SpeedEvil | it's identical footprint to SSOP | 17:43 |
| AStorm | not really :) | 17:43 |
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| AStorm | also, this tssop is the exposed pad variety | 17:44 |
| AStorm | pity I can't use that for the ground in single layer design | 17:44 |
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| asj_wrk- | SpeedEvil: I've had good luck with toner transfer, including some fine parts, can't remember the package anymore, but it was 10mil traces into it I think. | 17:46 |
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| asj_wrk- | (which I thought was pretty good for soemthing done with such crude work) | 17:46 |
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| AStorm | asj_wrk-: 10mil = x mm? | 17:56 |
| AStorm | ah, 0.25 | 17:56 |
| AStorm | more than fine enough | 17:57 |
| AStorm | I might try. | 17:57 |
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| AStorm | I need 0.4 mm pitch here | 18:00 |
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| SpeedEvil | tssop/ssop is .65 I thought | 18:01 |
| asj_wrk- | it took a little practice and the right paper. The biggest problem was single sidded and the time it took. For work I wasted half a day on it once and that make a run through pcbpool cheaper/easier | 18:02 |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: not -24. | 18:02 |
| AStorm | and not -20 | 18:02 |
| asj_wrk- | I did some double sided, but that's a real pita | 18:02 |
| AStorm | those are smaller. | 18:02 |
| pupnik_ | heh | 18:02 |
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| CShadowRun | does anyone know if the n900 can charge by usb? | 18:06 |
| Stskeeps | yes, it is only chargeable through usb or convertor plug i think | 18:07 |
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| CShadowRun | sweet | 18:07 |
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| tuukkah | ok, got python working with fremantle scratchbox and diablo sdk by editing DIABLO_ARMEL.config SBOX_CPUTRANSPARENCY_METHOD=/scratchboc/ | 18:09 |
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| tuukkah | /scrachbox/devkits/qemu/bin/qemu-arm-sb | 18:09 |
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| AStorm | Stskeeps: yes, seems so, and it supports that new USB charger protocol | 18:14 |
| AStorm | *USB charger extension | 18:14 |
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| sniff__ | is there a debian/ubuntu repository for fremantle extras? so far i only found diablo repo, but i'd like newer versions of *mm (c++ interface) libraries. is there such repository or am i forced to compile maemomm/gtkmm by hand? | 18:15 |
| sniff__ | the tarballs are on maemomm project page but no instructions for fremantle addition to sources.list, just diablo | 18:16 |
| Stskeeps | repository.maemo.org/extras-devel and find fremantle? | 18:16 |
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| sniff__ | ah, thank you, was looking in the wrong place :) maybe now the tutorials work :) | 18:17 |
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| lcuk | RST38h, http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/09/21/1418256/TI-vs-Calculator-Hackers?art_pos=1 | 18:40 |
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| asj_wrk- | TI isn't a real calculator, if you want a real one you have to buy HP ;) | 18:41 |
| asj_wrk- | pre Fiorena | 18:41 |
| AStorm | blah blah. | 18:42 |
| AStorm | either one is good | 18:42 |
| qwerty12 | Calculator? Wikipedia has him as a rapper | 18:42 |
| asj_wrk- | if it doesn't have a stack it ain't any good ;) | 18:42 |
| AStorm | asj_wrk-: it does have one, so. | 18:43 |
| asj_wrk- | AStorm: ok, RPN ;) | 18:43 |
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| *** halves_away is now known as halves | 18:45 | |
| lcuk | halves, wouldnt you be quarters? | 18:45 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: It uses keys? | 18:50 |
| * RST38h had no idea | 18:50 | |
| lcuk | i havent read it rst | 18:50 |
| lcuk | i just spotted it and thought of our discussions in the past and your emus :) | 18:50 |
| RST38h | TI83+ firmware is just a bunch of 16kB pages thrown together, in hex format | 18:51 |
| RST38h | The ROM image that comes with the SDK is similarly unencrypted | 18:51 |
| * lcuk shrugs | 18:51 | |
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| RST38h | Oh well let'em fight | 18:53 |
| sniff__ | i'm trying the simplest maemomm/gtkmm example from tutorial to compile, but osso_initialize() fails for some reason.. any ideas why that might be? the program itself seems to work as expected even without the osso-function-calls | 18:54 |
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| SpeedEvil | GPS ideas for N900 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fl718QO_xQ | 18:55 |
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| sniff__ | well, correction, the program compiles fine with the osso calls, but at runtime it returns zero for osso_context | 18:57 |
| lcuk | sniff__, you need the proper osso file | 18:57 |
| lcuk | ie \usr\share\dbus-1\services\org.maemo.liqbase_playground.service | 18:58 |
| lcuk | look in that folder at how other apps register themselves with osso | 18:58 |
| sniff__ | aa, alright, i'll look into that, thanks again :) (n00b me) :) | 18:59 |
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| lcuk | then make your osso_initialize call match the osso name you specify | 18:59 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, thats cool! | 18:59 |
| * lcuk goes to bed | 18:59 | |
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| jjardon | Does someone know a workaround to build hildon in a normal gtk+ environment? (outside the SDK) | 19:01 |
| * Jaffa uploads his first maemo-optify using app to the auto-builder | 19:02 | |
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| qwerty12 | Jaffa: Good job, "Jaffa's porn archives" took way too much space up on the flash. Using /opt will help | 19:03 |
| Macer | hm | 19:03 |
| Jaffa | qwerty12: Indeed. I look forward to the karma ;-) | 19:03 |
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| qwerty12 | Oh, yes, you will certainly get a thumbs up from me - it was good stuff | 19:03 |
| SpeedEvil | thumbs up where? | 19:04 |
| qwerty12 | https://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/jaffapornarchives/6.66-1maemo0/ | 19:04 |
| Jaffa | qwerty12: Going to put maemo-optify in Droid Fonts' debian/rules? | 19:08 |
| * Jaffa has reflashed and sees "4.4 MB" in the "space required" column | 19:08 | |
| qwerty12 | Good point. Will do soon | 19:08 |
| lcuk | jaffa, as qwerty says, delete your pron | 19:09 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: That's on VFAT ;-) | 19:09 |
| Jaffa | "VFAT Girls" | 19:09 |
| rm_you| | Jaffa: so, i'm in the Shared Room Accomidations table | 19:09 |
| rm_you| | Jaffa: do i need to also be in the other table at the top? | 19:09 |
| Jaffa | rm_you|: I'm not. | 19:09 |
| rm_you| | k | 19:09 |
| crashanddie_ | I've just shelled out a few hundred quid for my hotel, lol | 19:09 |
| crashanddie_ | and just realised I have no idea where the hotel actually is | 19:09 |
| Jaffa | You only "need" to be in the bottom one, so we can print that off and give to the hotel | 19:10 |
| Jaffa | Well, I say "we". But in 6 days' time it's not my problem ;-) | 19:10 |
| * lcuk still cannot book travel cos i dont know when im goin | 19:10 | |
| qwerty12 | crashanddie_: "We look forward to your stay" :) | 19:10 |
| Macer | hm | 19:10 |
| Macer | wonder if i could put maemo or symbian on my g1 | 19:10 |
| Macer | that would be neat | 19:10 |
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| rm_you| | lcuk: T_T | 19:11 |
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| pupnik_ | "in Amsterdam, Botswana" | 19:11 |
| rm_you| | Macer: yeah maemo on g1 would be interesting but I don't know if i'd really want to be without my properly working phone >_> | 19:11 |
| Macer | heh | 19:11 |
| Macer | well. if the drivers were there... | 19:12 |
| Macer | i mean.. it android uses linux for the hal doesnt it? | 19:12 |
| rm_you| | IIRC the problem is kernel related | 19:13 |
| rm_you| | don't remember specifics | 19:13 |
| rm_you| | like, one of them is too closed | 19:13 |
| rm_you| | FWIW | 19:13 |
| rm_you| | YMMV | 19:13 |
| rm_you| | etc | 19:13 |
| Macer | damn | 19:13 |
| Macer | would be great | 19:13 |
| Macer | right about now i'd switch to winmob | 19:13 |
| rm_you| | bleh | 19:14 |
| rm_you| | i like android | 19:14 |
| qwerty12 | /ban rm_you| | 19:14 |
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| rm_you| | lol | 19:14 |
| Myrtti | GODDAMMIT | 19:14 |
| rm_you| | i don't PROGRAM for android... but i like it | 19:14 |
| Myrtti | I accidentally launched "Get Started" app | 19:14 |
| Macer | i donlt | 19:15 |
| rm_you| | will continue programming for maemo only, mostprobably ;P | 19:15 |
| qwerty12 | Myrtti: your reward: the lovely music | 19:15 |
| Macer | don't | 19:15 |
| Macer | i did at first | 19:15 |
| Macer | but it seems lacking all over the place | 19:15 |
| luke-jr | Gentoo ftw | 19:15 |
| Macer | oh fuck gentoo | 19:15 |
| luke-jr | I just need good hardware :/ | 19:15 |
| AStorm | hehehe | 19:15 |
| Macer | haha | 19:15 |
| AStorm | nah, you'd need all the arm speedup patches | 19:15 |
| luke-jr | decent keyboard and RAM really | 19:16 |
| rm_you| | gentoo is dieing | 19:16 |
| rm_you| | all the good community seems to have left | 19:16 |
| luke-jr | rm_you|: has been for years. | 19:16 |
| rm_you| | and their repos are falling apart | 19:16 |
| AStorm | etc. etc. | 19:16 |
| luke-jr | yet there is nothing out there to replace it | 19:16 |
| rm_you| | binary or hybrid distros are going to be the new winners | 19:16 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: exherbo is on horizon | 19:16 |
| rm_you| | luke-jr: Arch | 19:16 |
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| luke-jr | rm_you|: Gentoo is hybrid | 19:16 |
| AStorm | slowly moving to replace it ;p | 19:16 |
| rm_you| | Arch IMO | 19:16 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: orly? it's binary support is highly rudimentary | 19:17 |
| luke-jr | Utopios IMO, but it doesn't work yet | 19:17 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: true | 19:17 |
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| luke-jr | but it's on par with Debian/etc's binaries | 19:17 |
| Macer | luke-jr: if nothing is replacing it.... | 19:17 |
| rm_you| | pft | 19:17 |
| AStorm | yep | 19:17 |
| Macer | that should tell you something | 19:17 |
| AStorm | Macer: no, there are projects that replace it | 19:17 |
| AStorm | like, say, exherbo.org | 19:17 |
| Macer | liar | 19:17 |
| AStorm | :P | 19:18 |
| rm_you| | well, i'll distro flamewar later, gotta run to lunch :P | 19:18 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: Arch and Exherbo have USE flags and such? | 19:18 |
| rm_you| | been fun | 19:18 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: Arch not | 19:18 |
| AStorm | Exherbo has OPTIONS, which are equivalent | 19:18 |
| luke-jr | ah | 19:18 |
| luke-jr | Paludis based | 19:18 |
| AStorm | (but Exherbo doesn't do binaries yet) | 19:18 |
| luke-jr | too bad Paludis is too buggy to work on ARM | 19:18 |
| AStorm | buggy? | 19:18 |
| AStorm | wtflol | 19:18 |
| AStorm | you mean g++ is too buggy to build it for arm | 19:18 |
| rm_you| | http://www.sourcemage.org/ | 19:18 |
| Macer | gentoo is too buggy to work on arm :-P | 19:18 |
| rm_you| | and i'm out :P | 19:18 |
| luke-jr | Portage is slow, so I tried it :p | 19:18 |
| AStorm | sourcesuckage? ;P | 19:19 |
| rm_you| | i just think it's hilarious :P | 19:19 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: why wouldn't paludis build there? | 19:19 |
| rm_you| | who cares if it works or not | 19:19 |
| AStorm | I did a cross once | 19:19 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: it built, but crashed | 19:19 |
| rm_you| | it's full of lulz | 19:19 |
| * rm_you| runs | 19:19 | |
| AStorm | luke-jr: so compiler failed? interesting | 19:19 |
| AStorm | I tried that cross with 4.4.0 | 19:19 |
| Macer | so any official n900 announcement? | 19:19 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: compiler succeeded IIRC | 19:19 |
| AStorm | not. | 19:20 |
| AStorm | since it doesn't crash on x86 | 19:20 |
| AStorm | unless you had some broken version | 19:20 |
| luke-jr | 0.36.1 | 19:20 |
| AStorm | hmmph | 19:20 |
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| AStorm | old, but didn't die | 19:20 |
| Macer | you have to use 0.36.1.2.3.53.1b | 19:20 |
| Macer | duh | 19:20 |
| AStorm | no. | 19:20 |
| AStorm | 0.40 | 19:21 |
| Macer | haha | 19:21 |
| AStorm | (and later) | 19:21 |
| Macer | </sarcasm> | 19:21 |
| AStorm | "The current version is 0.40.1" | 19:21 |
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| Macer | they all suck | 19:22 |
| AStorm | probably that new memoisation code overloaded your arm's ram | 19:22 |
| Macer | except maemo | 19:22 |
| Macer | :) | 19:22 |
| AStorm | nah, maemo's package manager sucks | 19:22 |
| AStorm | and badly at that. | 19:22 |
| Macer | isnt it just apt? | 19:22 |
| AStorm | it is. | 19:22 |
| AStorm | that's why it does. | 19:22 |
| Macer | hahaha | 19:22 |
| Macer | better than most | 19:22 |
| AStorm | define "most" | 19:22 |
| AStorm | apt IS the most. | 19:22 |
| Macer | pkg | 19:23 |
| * Corsac laughs at yum | 19:23 | |
| Macer | rpm | 19:23 |
| Macer | yum | 19:23 |
| Macer | uhm... | 19:23 |
| AStorm | yes, it is better than rpm and yum | 19:23 |
| Macer | windows live? | 19:23 |
| AStorm | pkg? not really sure it's a package manager ;p | 19:23 |
| Macer | pkg on opensolaris? | 19:23 |
| AStorm | yes | 19:23 |
| Macer | heh | 19:23 |
| AStorm | it attempts to be one, but fails. | 19:23 |
| Macer | so apt is better? | 19:24 |
| AStorm | much like those Slackware tools | 19:24 |
| Macer | ;) | 19:24 |
| AStorm | than pkg? any day. | 19:24 |
| Macer | so... better than most | 19:24 |
| AStorm | where by most you mean the other "major" package managers. | 19:25 |
| AStorm | which is only rpm/yum | 19:25 |
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| AStorm | there are no others. | 19:25 |
| Macer | pkg counts :-P | 19:25 |
| AStorm | other package managers are a minority | 19:25 |
| AStorm | no. | 19:25 |
| Macer | yes! | 19:25 |
| ccooke | AStorm: portage. | 19:25 |
| AStorm | by the same logic, freebsd ports would count | 19:25 |
| Macer | ah.. portage | 19:25 |
| AStorm | ccooke: minority, but yes, it's better than apt | 19:25 |
| AStorm | as in, far better | 19:26 |
| AStorm | pacman is better as well | 19:26 |
| Macer | fbsd ports doesnt count? | 19:26 |
| ccooke | AStorm: having used both... it *really* depends what you're doing. | 19:26 |
| AStorm | hmh | 19:26 |
| AStorm | what was the use case where apt was better? | 19:26 |
| wirelessdreamer | afik ports is usually used to build from src, apt, usually deals with binary packages, both can do the other though | 19:27 |
| ccooke | AStorm: some of the management things are much harder to do with ports | 19:27 |
| AStorm | ccooke: with portage you mean | 19:28 |
| wirelessdreamer | ports != portage | 19:28 |
| AStorm | like what things? | 19:28 |
| wirelessdreamer | ports = bse, portages = gentoo | 19:28 |
| wirelessdreamer | *bse=bsd | 19:28 |
| Macer | i think apt is good | 19:28 |
| AStorm | wirelessdreamer: that's not counting srcpkg that is NetBSD. | 19:28 |
| AStorm | ports are FreeBSD. | 19:29 |
| AStorm | (and Dragonfly too I think) | 19:29 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade_: Are promotions to extras-testing still happening manually? | 19:29 |
| ccooke | I was meaning ports, yes. Sorry. | 19:29 |
| Macer | and darwin | 19:29 |
| Macer | ;) | 19:29 |
| AStorm | ccooke: that's true, ports are clunky | 19:29 |
| ccooke | You can tell it's a while since I've used either gentoo or *BSD :-) | 19:29 |
| * unixSnob casts his vote for portage | 19:29 | |
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| wirelessdreamer | undating portage on a year old install is an adventure | 19:29 |
| * AStorm casts his vote for paludis w/ exheres style repositories | 19:30 | |
| Macer | oh great, here comes all the gentoo whores | 19:30 |
| Macer | :) | 19:30 |
| AStorm | wirelessdreamer: true :) | 19:30 |
| ccooke | but if you're talking about portage as excellent... well... it's nice, I'll give you. But it's hard to separate it from gentoo and see where the failings are | 19:30 |
| wirelessdreamer | i've had less problems updating old installs with apt then portage | 19:30 |
| ccooke | for instance: On a debian-based system, I can trivially make one machine become a package-level copy of another. | 19:30 |
| AStorm | since apt changes like, never | 19:30 |
| wirelessdreamer | at least from an enterprise view apt > portage because of maintaining old systems | 19:31 |
| AStorm | ccooke: correct, so can I with portage: buildpkg + shared package directory + usebinpkg | 19:31 |
| slonopotamus | ouch | 19:31 |
| AStorm | or what was that option. | 19:31 |
| wirelessdreamer | apt also has less variables then portage, so less issues you can run into | 19:31 |
| ccooke | AStorm: That's not really the same thing :-) | 19:31 |
| AStorm | hmm, that is true | 19:31 |
| slonopotamus | you decided to base mer on exherbo? :) | 19:32 |
| AStorm | ccooke: it is, package-wise copy | 19:32 |
| AStorm | slonopotamus: wtf?! | 19:32 |
| ccooke | I'm talking dpkg --get-selections | ssh root@newserver dpkg --set-selections | 19:32 |
| slonopotamus | s/mer/maemo/ | 19:32 |
| infobot | slonopotamus meant: you decided to base maemo on exherbo? :) | 19:32 |
| AStorm | ccooke: oh, for that you need to copy the world file. | 19:32 |
| AStorm | that's all. | 19:32 |
| AStorm | then portage -eKD world | 19:32 |
| AStorm | alternatively, copy whole vdb and run the abovementioned command | 19:33 |
| ccooke | AStorm: I've never seen that work on a box that's more than 18 months old :-) | 19:33 |
| AStorm | it will not copy packages you didn't add to the package list in any way (world file or the dependency) | 19:33 |
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| AStorm | ccooke: I did, since first you install portage and sandbox | 19:33 |
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| AStorm | from a binary package, by hand. | 19:34 |
| AStorm | then do the rest. | 19:34 |
| AStorm | :) | 19:34 |
| AStorm | the trick is that apt almost never changes | 19:34 |
| AStorm | while portage does. | 19:34 |
| ccooke | AStorm: yes. Not changing is a strength. | 19:34 |
| AStorm | and a weakness as well ;p | 19:34 |
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| ccooke | portage is perenially bleeding edge, which is nice for hobbyists or people who want to spend a lot of time on admin work (comparitively) | 19:35 |
| AStorm | hehe | 19:35 |
| AStorm | people who spend little time on admin work don't do it properly | 19:36 |
| AStorm | you get to update the systems, check security measures, etc. | 19:36 |
| AStorm | a lot of this stuff is automatizable, but most is not | 19:36 |
| ccooke | apt is better for sysadmins... which is what I am. And before you say it, yes - I know a few sysadmins using gentoo. Well, I know a few who did it for a while. None of them kept it up for more than four years. | 19:36 |
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| ccooke | AStorm: people who don't spend a lot of time on admin work can admin thousands of servers. | 19:37 |
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| AStorm | you mean "can appear to admin" | 19:37 |
| ccooke | A good sysadmin is a lazy sysadmin. | 19:37 |
| AStorm | no, that's a lousy sysadmin working with scripts | 19:37 |
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| AStorm | or rather, only with scripts until stuff breaks | 19:37 |
| AStorm | that kind of admin work means security holes here and there | 19:38 |
| AStorm | I had fun enough with those some time back | 19:38 |
| ccooke | heh. I'll admit to scripting things occasionally, but in no way am I lousy :-) | 19:38 |
| AStorm | hehehe, see, the whole idea is to tweak at least one "test server" to the maximum security attainable with lowest work | 19:39 |
| AStorm | then copy and improve that design | 19:39 |
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| lupine_85 | if you have to individually log into 500 servers to fix a remote kernel exploit bug, you're a lousy sysadmin. If you do it in one command and don't test, you're also lousy | 19:39 |
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| * lupine_85 is worse than lousy at sysadmin | 19:39 | |
| ccooke | AStorm: yes. That's lazy. I approve. | 19:39 |
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| AStorm | lupine_85: actually, that script way is ok | 19:40 |
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| AStorm | assuming the script checks if the hole was fixed | 19:40 |
| AStorm | and you test everything for backdoors etc. | 19:41 |
| AStorm | still, the server after the fix must be considered unsafe | 19:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | crashanddie_, nice. :P | 19:41 |
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| AStorm | so you probably still get to log in to each and check more precisely | 19:41 |
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| ccooke | AStorm: I'd tend to rebuild anything that was compromised, and anything that could talk to if it's a serious problem (recursively, depending on the nature of the break-in and the importance of the servers) | 19:42 |
| ccooke | AStorm: you? | 19:42 |
| AStorm | yes, correct | 19:42 |
| AStorm | the problem is that you get to copy all the configuration | 19:42 |
| AStorm | and check that | 19:42 |
| AStorm | then rebuild from scratch (or rather, from a good image) | 19:43 |
| ccooke | no, that's no problem | 19:43 |
| AStorm | or restore from the backup | 19:43 |
| slonopotamus | use netboot from single image! :) | 19:43 |
| AStorm | and offline apply fixes | 19:43 |
| AStorm | slonopotamus: won't work with various servers | 19:43 |
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| AStorm | with a server farm, might. | 19:43 |
| ccooke | you have a Known Good Image and a Known Good configuration on a seperate network, that the compromised servers can't contact. You run an automated check against that - using disk images for preference, since things can hide in the kernel. | 19:44 |
| AStorm | correct. | 19:44 |
| Myrtti | meh | 19:44 |
| AStorm | that's also "offline apply fixes" | 19:44 |
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| AStorm | the problem is that you get to move that image somehow to the target machine | 19:44 |
| slonopotamus | if you have a thousand of them, chances are they can be split in identical-hw groups | 19:44 |
| luke-jr | Macer: what's the big minus of the G1? | 19:44 |
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| SpeedEvil | And then you get BIOS theoretical issues. | 19:44 |
| AStorm | slonopotamus: lucky you :> | 19:44 |
| ccooke | AStorm: I prefer "servers as commodity". Minimal OS install which gets config from the network on bootup. Then you never patch them: You just reboot using the newer image you've built. | 19:45 |
| slonopotamus | AStorm, i just have a dedicated admin for my project :P | 19:45 |
| AStorm | ccooke: good approach | 19:45 |
| AStorm | I do something like this with virtualization | 19:45 |
| AStorm | (where applicable) | 19:45 |
| ccooke | You have enough of them behind load balancers so you can take them in and out of service (in a scripted fashion, with tests) safely. | 19:45 |
| AStorm | s/do/did/ | 19:45 |
| AStorm | I'm not a sysadmin anymore. | 19:46 |
| ccooke | AStorm: yeah. I've been building environments like that since before virtualisation was really workable. Oh, god - the first iteration used root-from-a-cd and the context patch (linux-vserver). That was fun. | 19:46 |
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| ccooke | (and scarily enough, the company were still using it as of last year. Terrifying :-) | 19:47 |
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| javispedro | lol Xen ARM | 19:47 |
| AStorm | ccooke: hehehe, vserver is nice and light, but that's no virtualization | 19:48 |
| AStorm | that's just separation | 19:48 |
| javispedro | http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenARM | 19:49 |
| javispedro | it exists O.o | 19:49 |
| ccooke | AStorm: it has some nice features, though | 19:49 |
| ccooke | AStorm: chbind and chcontext I'd love to use inside a VM | 19:49 |
| AStorm | javispedro: why not? | 19:49 |
| AStorm | it's not heavy | 19:49 |
| luke-jr | Xen is no more virtualization than VServer or OpenVZ | 19:50 |
| javispedro | AStorm: so now all the components for doing the same video vmware did are already there. | 19:50 |
| luke-jr | they're just different kinda | 19:50 |
| ccooke | javispedro: we should get it running on the tablets :-) | 19:50 |
| luke-jr | kinds* | 19:50 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: ... | 19:50 |
| AStorm | no. Xen is para-virtualization, OpenVZ, VServer or Linux Containers are no virtualization, just some separation on kernel level | 19:50 |
| AStorm | they don't simulate any hardware | 19:51 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: neither does Xen | 19:51 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: it does. | 19:51 |
| luke-jr | virtualization is about running multiple OS, not emulating hardware | 19:51 |
| AStorm | it does! | 19:51 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: notice the use of word "simulate", as usual. | 19:51 |
| AStorm | you can run different OSes | 19:51 |
| AStorm | not just Linux. | 19:52 |
| luke-jr | Linux isn't an OS | 19:52 |
| luke-jr | Linux is a kernel | 19:52 |
| ccooke | AStorm: um. You know that Xen is both para-virtualised and full-virtualised now? | 19:52 |
| javispedro | ccooke: without pacifica/intel vt? | 19:52 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: now you're twisting words | 19:52 |
| AStorm | ccooke: yes, I do. I'm not even mentioning that, this is obvious. | 19:52 |
| ccooke | javispedro: no, they currently need hardware support. Doesn't make any difference, really | 19:52 |
| * SpeedEvil realises luke-jr is RMS! | 19:52 | |
| AStorm | I'm talking that even Xen in para-virt mode can run a few OSes. | 19:53 |
| * javispedro doesn't have a "modern" processor by 2009 standards | 19:53 | |
| SpeedEvil | 80386sx? | 19:53 |
| AStorm | as in, full FreeBSD, Linux distro (luke-jr, happy now?) | 19:53 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: no, I'm realist | 19:53 |
| ccooke | AStorm: good point, yes | 19:53 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil: don't ask ;) just one without vt | 19:53 |
| AStorm | OpenSolaris | 19:54 |
| AStorm | oh, and some other more exotic ones as well | 19:54 |
| AStorm | that's w/o hardware virtualization support | 19:55 |
| AStorm | :) | 19:55 |
| javispedro | and a idiot OS I made a few years ago when I was into it. | 19:55 |
| javispedro | (based on the Xen linux-based kernel example) | 19:55 |
| javispedro | ;) | 19:55 |
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| javispedro | and, as I was saying, we now have the needed tools to do what vmware did. xen, maemo, and windows ce source (90 day trial). who is up to the job? ;) | 19:56 |
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| Khertan_n810 | Hi ! | 19:57 |
| AStorm | javispedro: you mean like, run WinCE in Xen? | 19:57 |
| AStorm | no can do yet | 19:57 |
| Khertan_n810 | There isn t many candidates for the council election ... | 19:57 |
| ccooke | javispedro: Wish I was, sounds interesting. Why not do mer and android, though? That'd be more interesting :-) | 19:58 |
| AStorm | ARM cpus don't have hardware virtualization support (yet) | 19:58 |
| javispedro | AStorm: I remark, WinCE source is open. | 19:58 |
| AStorm | you could abuse virtualbox maybe | 19:58 |
| AStorm | port it to ARM. | 19:58 |
| AStorm | javispedro: it is? links. | 19:58 |
| luke-jr | ... | 19:58 |
| luke-jr | qemu | 19:58 |
| javispedro | AStorm: i got a 90-day trial at least. | 19:58 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: too slow to be useful | 19:58 |
| luke-jr | VirtualBox is just a more closed fork of qemu | 19:58 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: wtflol | 19:58 |
| AStorm | it's not. | 19:58 |
| luke-jr | it is. | 19:59 |
| javispedro | AStorm: google for "windows platform designer" iirc. | 19:59 |
| AStorm | virtualbox uses hot patching of code | 19:59 |
| luke-jr | with some KVM patches | 19:59 |
| AStorm | qemu is a JIT. | 19:59 |
| javispedro | "platform builder" sorry. | 19:59 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: qemu is modular | 19:59 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: no, and really, READ THE CODE. | 19:59 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: I have. Written patches for it, even. | 19:59 |
| AStorm | they're nothing alike, algorithmically and what not | 19:59 |
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| AStorm | for vbox? or for qemu? | 19:59 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: so Wikipedia is totally wrong? :p | 19:59 |
| javispedro | vbox has qemu code for sure | 20:00 |
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| AStorm | unless some enterprising person copied vbox patching algorithms. | 20:00 |
| AStorm | javispedro: yes, it does. | 20:00 |
| AStorm | the other way around, really not. | 20:00 |
| luke-jr | "In January 2007, VirtualBox was released. It uses some of QEMU's virtual hardware devices and has a built-in dynamic recompiler that is based on QEMU. As with KQEMU, it runs nearly all guest code natively on the host via the VMM (Virtual Machine Manager), and uses the recompiler only for special situations as a fallback mechanism (this holds true for guest code that executes in real mode and some other rare scenarios at runtime)." | 20:00 |
| javispedro | AStorm: at least I remember vbox doing qemu emulation for 16 bit code. | 20:00 |
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| AStorm | javispedro: true. | 20:00 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: that was a long long time ago | 20:01 |
| luke-jr | a long, long time ago | 20:01 |
| luke-jr | in a galaxy far away | 20:01 |
| javispedro | in a far, far | 20:01 |
| AStorm | not that far away | 20:01 |
| javispedro | bahg | 20:01 |
| AStorm | virtualbox actually now has a better recompiler | 20:01 |
| AStorm | and I do mean that. | 20:01 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: doesn't change the fact that a qemu port would be far more straightforward ;) | 20:02 |
| AStorm | including funny code patching | 20:02 |
| * javispedro still considers dosemu the best x86 virtualizer ever :) | 20:02 | |
| luke-jr | just need to implement the small kqemu bits for ARM | 20:02 |
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| AStorm | which is almost like paravirtualization, except the other OS doesn't know it's been done | 20:02 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: you know, kqemu unfortunately is limited to running same-arch code. but yes, that would allow WinCE at reasonable speeds | 20:03 |
| luke-jr | anyhow, OpenVZ is enough for pretty much every useful purpose <.< | 20:03 |
| AStorm | what is more lacking, is memory | 20:03 |
| AStorm | except having multiple OSes inside | 20:03 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: what? everything you're talking about in VBox is same-arch limited | 20:03 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: no, code patching is not | 20:03 |
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| luke-jr | OpenVZ supports pretty much all Linux-based OS | 20:03 |
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| johnsq | Hi | 20:03 |
| luke-jr | o hai johnsq! :P | 20:04 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: virtualbox could run x86-64 on x86 I think... though I'm not sure | 20:04 |
| AStorm | yes, it can. | 20:04 |
| javispedro | AStorm: on a x86 cpu? O.o | 20:04 |
| AStorm | but w/ KVM. | 20:04 |
| javispedro | ah | 20:04 |
| AStorm | *VT-X and such | 20:04 |
| javispedro | on a x86_64 cpu. | 20:04 |
| AStorm | cheating then. | 20:04 |
| javispedro | that's not trivial, but fully documented. | 20:05 |
| AStorm | meh | 20:05 |
| AStorm | really, they had that pseudo-paravirt code patching scheme | 20:05 |
| AStorm | that replaced parts of IO drivers and other code | 20:05 |
| AStorm | for extra speed | 20:05 |
| javispedro | there was this vm86dev kmod that did the opposite (switching real mode code from long mode) | 20:06 |
| javispedro | s/switching/switching to | 20:06 |
| javispedro | messy stuff, even amd says so, but works. | 20:07 |
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| AStorm | :> | 20:08 |
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| * javispedro googles for vm86dev and finds his only his own mailing list post :O) | 20:08 | |
| fiferboy | Does anyone know how current Fremantle apps are handling color and font selection? | 20:09 |
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| lcuk | fiferboy, i would imagine using color and font selectors in whichever toolkit de jour | 20:09 |
| Khertan_n810 | 'de jour' ? | 20:10 |
| Khertan_n810 | hi lcuk :) | 20:10 |
| fiferboy | In Gtk, they didn't hildonize the dialogs or provide a "hildonized" version... | 20:10 |
| lcuk | du vour even | 20:10 |
| lcuk | hiya khertan | 20:10 |
| Khertan_n810 | i see that you are a candidate for the maemo council ... | 20:10 |
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| lcuk | good to know someone is picking up my international mistakes | 20:10 |
| * lcuk nods :) | 20:10 | |
| javispedro | ah | 20:10 |
| javispedro | today is voting day | 20:10 |
| lcuk | about time i drew a line in the sand | 20:10 |
| derf | Vote early, vote often! | 20:11 |
| javispedro | so hooooow are the candidates going | 20:11 |
| lcuk | im suffering a massive headache | 20:11 |
| lcuk | lol derf | 20:11 |
| derf | I'd just like to let candidates know I can be bribed. | 20:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | We need somebody to harass them more. | 20:12 |
| derf | The first person who arranges it so I get an N900 gets my vote. | 20:12 |
| * javispedro notes "has massive headache" in "cons" list in candidate lcuk's page | 20:12 | |
| lcuk | ive got no pros in my section | 20:12 |
| lcuk | but there should be some in amsterdam! | 20:12 |
| javispedro | that's a pro I think :) | 20:12 |
| lcuk | do i even have a pro/con section? | 20:12 |
| * lcuk cannot remember his campaign bit | 20:13 | |
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| javispedro | not yet ;) lol | 20:13 |
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| lcuk | lol, i did post this this morning: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=330687 | 20:13 |
| lcuk | tim wants me to do it as a youtube vid | 20:13 |
| Khertan_n810_2 | grr stupid peer | 20:13 |
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| lcuk | im trying desperately to get flite or subtitler installed so everyone can understand it | 20:14 |
| Khertan_n810_2 | please remove him his 'reset' button | 20:14 |
| Khertan_n810_2 | :) | 20:14 |
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| javispedro | lcuk: i want "vote lcuk" buttons and pins | 20:14 |
| javispedro | your campaigning could be better, truly!!! ;) | 20:14 |
| lcuk | there can be an app for that! | 20:14 |
| lcuk | i hang my n900 round neck on a lanyard | 20:15 |
| lcuk | liqflow is quite cool and dynamic that way :D | 20:15 |
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| javispedro | no political debates on abortion in maemo.org downloads apps? *yawn* | 20:15 |
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| lcuk | javispedro, im not really campaigning tho - im just speaking from the heart :) | 20:15 |
| * derf puts down "has a heart" in the Cons list. | 20:16 | |
| lcuk | lol | 20:16 |
| lcuk | bastards! | 20:16 |
| javispedro | so, lcuk, what's going to be your first action as chairman of the maemo.org Troll Council? | 20:16 |
| * javispedro proposes enslaving and trolls and make them build a giant mud ball to be thrown at nokia headquarters when they release the n910 without keyboard. | 20:17 | |
| javispedro | s/and/the/ | 20:17 |
| AStorm | lcuk's pro: he's not khertan | 20:17 |
| AStorm | ;) | 20:17 |
| lcuk | im gonna try to make a hackers group to ensure we make best use of this platform | 20:17 |
| AStorm | s/group/slave team/ | 20:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, if I vote for you, how do I directly benefit? :P | 20:18 |
| lcuk | you dont gan | 20:18 |
| lcuk | and you have special dispensation as being former council | 20:18 |
| lcuk | ill bbl tea ready | 20:19 |
| * GeneralAntilles loves how his university _requires_ Visual Studio for the first semester programming class. | 20:19 | |
| Khertan_n810_2 | GeneralAntille are you thinking of n900 rebates ? :) | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | MSDNAA? | 20:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Khertan_n810_2, I'm thinking of lcuk giving me candy or something. | 20:19 |
| qwerty12 | .. | 20:19 |
| Khertan_n810_2 | GeneralAntilles if they ask you visualstudio avoid it :) | 20:19 |
| javispedro | GeneralAntilles: today on my alma mater 40 people were asked if the had every used visual studio. only two hands. | 20:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | My friend lost points on his first project because XCode managed to kick Visual Studio's ass. | 20:19 |
| javispedro | bah | 20:19 |
| Khertan_n810_2 | Expect more a beer | 20:19 |
| Khertan_n810_2 | or bacon :) | 20:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | The head of the department is in Microsoft's pocket. | 20:20 |
| * javispedro is rewriting his last message. | 20:20 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | She's come close to admitting such on a number of occasions, too. | 20:20 |
| javispedro | lol | 20:20 |
| derf | Requiring MSVC is pretty standard by this point. | 20:20 |
| derf | They were doing it all the way back when I was in school. | 20:20 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Which is interesting, because the rest of the department is entirely Linux and OS X users. | 20:20 |
| wazd | I have a great poster for lcuk's campaign | 20:21 |
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| wazd | http://i017.radikal.ru/0909/2a/4861392de128.png | 20:21 |
| AStorm | GeneralAntilles: huh? | 20:21 |
| AStorm | how did he manage to lose points? | 20:21 |
| Pavlov | that tmobile uk subsity link is now saying vodafone | 20:21 |
| AStorm | code didn't build under MSVS? | 20:21 |
| _berto_ | GeneralAntilles: requires visual studio? and you're supposed to purchase it? | 20:21 |
| Khertan_n810_2 | lcuk i could design you a nice maemo logo as my tshirt at the first summit :) | 20:21 |
| AStorm | _berto_: MSDNAA. | 20:21 |
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| luke-jr | _berto_: well, they require you to purchase books... so the stretch is really just that it's a crappy Microsoft product | 20:22 |
| _berto_ | ah, I think I imagine what that is | 20:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | AStorm, apparently XCode automatically does the string preprocessing and MSVS doesn't. | 20:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | _berto_, it's the educational edition. | 20:22 |
| javispedro | not only MSDNAA, Visual Studio Express is now free. | 20:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which is "free". | 20:22 |
| _berto_ | don't know in other countries, in spain at least my university was special in that we used unix for almost everything | 20:22 |
| Khertan_n810_2 | not only that xcode is better | 20:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | I managed to get through that class using only gcc++, thankfully. | 20:23 |
| * javispedro watches a wierd spam where the text mime part is about v1iagra pills, but the html part is about some awful social site. | 20:24 | |
| qwerty12 | viagra + social site = adultfriendfinder? | 20:25 |
| luke-jr | javispedro: free, or merely gratis? | 20:25 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: gratis. | 20:25 |
| javispedro | and I'd assume the "limitations" are arbitrary and plainly designed to piss you off. | 20:25 |
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| javispedro | (limitations "fixed" in the paid versions, of course) | 20:26 |
| * javispedro remembers the days when the vb version that let you use the common dialog controls was more expensive. | 20:26 | |
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| lcuk | wazd khertan GeneralAntilles anyone else - sure! get involved have fun do whatever you can. thats all i am doing. | 20:29 |
| lcuk | to qualify my hacking group statement - thats exactly what happens in #liqbase now ;) | 20:29 |
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| lcuk | lol wazd that white is not quite white | 20:30 |
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| lardman | qwerty12_N810: what was that focus library called? Can you remember? | 20:33 |
| lardman | GCamLib? | 20:33 |
| * lcuk waves at lardman \o | 20:33 | |
| lardman | h lcuk | 20:33 |
| lardman | hi | 20:33 |
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| lcuk | simon, hows work goin | 20:37 |
| lardman | day job? Good thanks | 20:37 |
| lcuk | did you finish your zillion frames import | 20:37 |
| lardman | nah, going to go another method | 20:38 |
| lardman | talking to the company to do something different | 20:38 |
| lcuk | cool | 20:38 |
| lcuk | like get them to number their movie frames correctly ;P | 20:38 |
| derf | lardman: Do you have some example images of barcodes that decode with batoo but not with zbar? | 20:40 |
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| lardman | nothing handy | 20:44 |
| lardman | zbar 0.8 wouldn't decode any barcode, well it would decode them as ean8 | 20:45 |
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| derf | lardman: If you get a couple, I'd be interested in taking a look at them. | 20:49 |
| lardman | sure, have been away at a conference, hence the general tardiness, but should have some odds and ends for you by the end of the week | 20:50 |
| * lcuk thinks tardiness is just an excuse and the conference was a wine drinking cheese eating festival with his new wife in a hotel somewhere | 20:50 | |
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| pupnik_ | i believe a fondue should be part of every honeymoon | 20:51 |
| lardman | I'm not sure the Norbreck Castle in Blackpool is the type of place you'd want to take your wife | 20:51 |
| qwerty12_N810 | s/the Norbreck Castle in // | 20:51 |
| derf | I was on travel all last week, also. | 20:52 |
| lardman | indeed :D | 20:52 |
| lardman | Holly was going to come with me, but thankfully she didn't - wasn't the nicest place | 20:52 |
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| lardman | ~lart gedit for crashing | 20:55 |
| * infobot does a little 'dpkg -P gedit' action for crashing | 20:55 | |
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| lcuk | lardman, on desktop? | 21:06 |
| lcuk | or on tablet? | 21:06 |
| lardman | desktop | 21:08 |
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| lcuk | ahhh | 21:08 |
| lcuk | i think thats the normal on on ubuntu isnt it | 21:08 |
| lcuk | i prefer komodo but ive been lazy recently | 21:09 |
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| * GeneralAntilles pours some capital letters down lcuk's throat. | 21:13 | |
| lcuk | i need a textmessage/keyboard filter to automatically do it for me | 21:14 |
| lcuk | because i rarely use em | 21:14 |
| lcuk | and im not about to start now | 21:14 |
| fiferboy | GtkColorSelectionDialog and GtkFontSelectionDialog work but are useless in Fremantle | 21:15 |
| javispedro | and deprecated. | 21:16 |
| fiferboy | Yes. So what are we supposed to use? | 21:16 |
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| javispedro | fiferboy: you're supposed to dumb your app down :) | 21:16 |
| javispedro | like the rest of fremantle apps | 21:16 |
| javispedro | does Notes have a font selection dialog now? | 21:16 |
| fiferboy | I can't tell. Could someone with an N900 look? | 21:17 |
| lcuk | fiferboy, build me an exe | 21:17 |
| lcuk | add debug info | 21:17 |
| lcuk | and send it me | 21:17 |
| lcuk | or do you just want a visual look at the dialog | 21:18 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: I just want to see what Nokia and/or other people are using to do font and color selection | 21:18 |
| lcuk | theres 2 things | 21:18 |
| lcuk | a font select combo | 21:18 |
| lcuk | and a "font" menu item | 21:18 |
| lcuk | the font menu item | 21:18 |
| lcuk | opens a full font select | 21:18 |
| Pavlov | and a color palette selector thing | 21:19 |
| fiferboy | Hildonized? | 21:19 |
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| lcuk | with font face, font size, colour bold italic underline strikethro and positioning | 21:19 |
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| lcuk | yeah "colour palette" | 21:19 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: Are those lists pannable? Or do they have tiny scroll bars? | 21:19 |
| lcuk | opens up a window with selection of colors | 21:19 |
| lcuk | err dialog | 21:19 |
| lcuk | the color boxes are tiny tho | 21:20 |
| lcuk | not finger friendly | 21:20 |
| lcuk | lists pannable | 21:20 |
| lcuk | which | 21:20 |
| lcuk | the combo? | 21:20 |
| fiferboy | The "font face", "font size" etc | 21:20 |
| lcuk | combo is mouse oriented combo | 21:20 |
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| sniff__ | i would like to implement a kind of "hotkey" for bringin up a running application window in maemo5 running in xephyr, is there some dock available in the sdk that i could use to display a small icon that shows main window of my app? preferably similar that to task panel in real nokia tablets or the coming n900 | 21:21 |
| johnsq | sniff__: you can run the windowmanager of maemo in xephyr | 21:22 |
| sniff__ | johnsq: what is it called, or how is it launched? | 21:22 |
| lcuk | sniff__, the tiled app view thingy is just part of the operating system | 21:22 |
| lcuk | the beta doesnt have it | 21:22 |
| sniff__ | ah | 21:22 |
| johnsq | sniff__: matchbox was it for maemo4 | 21:23 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: Thanks. It looks like Nokia wants each application to roll its own colour/font selector :| | 21:23 |
| lcuk | the sdk isnt geared around being a multitasking replacement | 21:23 |
| RST38h | does it? | 21:23 |
| lcuk | fiferboy, not really | 21:23 |
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| lcuk | isnt there a posh selection dialog somewhere | 21:23 |
| RST38h | AFAIK, it offers default color and font selectors | 21:23 |
| lcuk | didnt i see it in the gtk controls thing | 21:23 |
| lcuk | hang on | 21:23 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: There are date and time selectors that use multiple pannable lists, but not for color or font | 21:24 |
| lcuk | yet | 21:24 |
| lcuk | and there ARE | 21:24 |
| lcuk | they are just not yet optimized | 21:24 |
| lcuk | so use the default one | 21:24 |
| lcuk | and complain loudly its not optimized ;) | 21:24 |
| lcuk | if you fell really strongly, make proposal for how one should work | 21:25 |
| lcuk | and include some layouts and test cases | 21:25 |
| fiferboy | DEPRECATED | GtkFontSelectionDialog | REPLACED by HildonPickerButton and HildonPickerDialog. Build the font picker (device has only 4 fonts!) using a generic Hildon Touch List Picker. | 21:25 |
| fiferboy | s/GtkFont/HildonFont/ | 21:26 |
| infobot | fiferboy meant: DEPRECATED | HildonFontSelectionDialog | REPLACED by HildonPickerButton and HildonPickerDialog. Build the font picker (device has only 4 fonts!) using a generic Hildon Touch List Picker. | 21:26 |
| lcuk | the font select dialog is more than just a list of fonts | 21:26 |
| lcuk | they are smoking crack surely? | 21:26 |
| RST38h | fiferboy: this is temporary | 21:26 |
| lcuk | i can understand it for the font combo box | 21:26 |
| javispedro | temporary until maemo 6, that is ;) | 21:27 |
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| fiferboy | RST38h: I hope so | 21:27 |
| * lcuk grumbles that even with maemo6 people will still need a way to select fonts in gtk | 21:27 | |
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| RST38h | hehe | 21:27 |
| * javispedro envisions a common dialogs gtk library written in qt | 21:27 | |
| luke-jr | you mean kgtk? | 21:28 |
| fiferboy | Qt4 for maemo5 will use Hildon file open/save dialogs natively | 21:28 |
| javispedro | heh, but not qt4 for diablo? | 21:28 |
| * javispedro was surprised to find native _gtk_ open/save dialogs in qt. | 21:29 | |
| javispedro | :) | 21:29 |
| fiferboy | I don't think it is turned of for Diablo, I'm not sure why | 21:29 |
| lcuk | ok - what would a qt font dialog look like | 21:29 |
| lcuk | since there is no need to stick with gtk | 21:29 |
| lcuk | can just open a qt dialog cant we if needbe? | 21:29 |
| lcuk | stick a gtk wrapper around it | 21:29 |
| lcuk | so the api remains | 21:29 |
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| fiferboy | For maemo5 you would be adding a lot of dependencies just for a decent font/colour selector in Gtk :) | 21:30 |
| javispedro | lmao. | 21:31 |
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| javispedro | so just write the damn font touch selector, call it "libhildon-things-nokia-did-not-want-to-do-for-unknown-reasons" and upload it toextras ;) | 21:32 |
| lcuk | fiferboy, we have that anyway | 21:32 |
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| lcuk | there is gtk and qt mixed | 21:32 |
| AStorm | :) | 21:32 |
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| lcuk | lets get over the practicalities and SEE what a proper nice dialog would look like in any framework | 21:32 |
| lcuk | hell, i could even have a go in liq* | 21:32 |
| AStorm | GTK wrapper around Qt is harder than you'd thing | 21:33 |
| lcuk | once we have something that people can look at and more importantly touch | 21:33 |
| AStorm | *think | 21:33 |
| lcuk | we can work out how to get it used | 21:33 |
| lcuk | not at all astorm | 21:33 |
| * javispedro was considering the name "libunfsckedSDL" for the special version of the SDL that is backing off removing the need for some of the maemo specialities + ogles surface support. | 21:33 | |
| AStorm | lcuk: trust me, I tried | 21:33 |
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| AStorm | as long as the app does nothing special, you'll be fine | 21:33 |
| lcuk | AStorm, its entirely feasible to compile up c++ into a sharable .so | 21:33 |
| fiferboy | Fonts for maemo5 it could be a dialog with 3 columns: "familt", "style", and "size" - all flickable | 21:34 |
| lcuk | i could have people using qt to create liq* widgets if i wanted | 21:34 |
| AStorm | but once owner-drawn stuff, surfaces and so on are on the table... | 21:34 |
| lcuk | fiferboy, | 21:34 |
| lcuk | :D | 21:34 |
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| fiferboy | That wouldn't be too hard, unless you wanted a user selectable font size | 21:34 |
| javispedro | AStorm: gtk wrapper around qt? qt-gtk-style? | 21:34 |
| lcuk | ok, the one in "notes" has more than family style size | 21:34 |
| fiferboy | Colours would be harder, I think, because everyone wants a colour wheel, RGB, CYMK, Hex, etc | 21:34 |
| AStorm | no. | 21:34 |
| lcuk | it has color and bolds etc | 21:34 |
| AStorm | gtk wrapper as in build gtk app with it, and it runs on qt | 21:35 |
| wazd_ | damn, I've almost burned down my videocard | 21:35 |
| AStorm | a theme engine is a lot easier | 21:35 |
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| lcuk | fiferboy, look at how i did colors in liqbase original | 21:35 |
| lcuk | nice, pretty hired and not a wheel | 21:35 |
| javispedro | AStorm: that is hard indeed. then you notice you need to pull so much qt code you're basically better off with the engine idea. | 21:35 |
| lcuk | hires | 21:35 |
| javispedro | s/qt/gtk | 21:35 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: bold, italic, etc is in "style" in the basic Gtk Font selector | 21:35 |
| AStorm | javispedro: pull? wrong way around | 21:35 |
| lcuk | i wait almost 3 weeks in windows for font dialog to open | 21:36 |
| lcuk | ahhh fifer | 21:36 |
| javispedro | AStorm: yep, sorry hehe | 21:36 |
| AStorm | the other way around isn't even remotely possible | 21:36 |
| AStorm | qt is too large | 21:36 |
| lcuk | how long does a qt app take to open | 21:36 |
| AStorm | as long as it takes to load the libs | 21:36 |
| lcuk | (to the nearest minute if reqd) | 21:36 |
| AStorm | which are some 10-20 MB | 21:36 |
| AStorm | depending on which libs are in use | 21:37 |
| lcuk | fiferboy, you say you could hack something quick and standalone together? | 21:37 |
| AStorm | plus deps like cairo | 21:37 |
| javispedro | want a flame? gtk is slower >:) | 21:37 |
| lcuk | or at least try to | 21:37 |
| AStorm | javispedro: blah blah, not gtk, cairo | 21:37 |
| AStorm | sometimes. | 21:37 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: For fonts it shouldn't be a big problem. I'll have to see what I could do about colours | 21:37 |
| AStorm | qt uses its own drawin engine, which is usually faster | 21:37 |
| javispedro | yeah | 21:38 |
| lcuk | dont worry about colors for now | 21:38 |
| lcuk | that could be a totally different dialog | 21:38 |
| lcuk | but just a test | 21:38 |
| lcuk | to show what a nice dialog should be based on | 21:38 |
| AStorm | fiferboy: what about simple touch picker + a few dials? | 21:38 |
| fiferboy | I'll try to work something up tonight | 21:38 |
| * javispedro remembers | 21:38 | |
| lcuk | cool! | 21:38 |
| keesj | pupnik_: ping | 21:38 |
| fiferboy | AStorm: I am thinking of a three column touch picker | 21:38 |
| AStorm | column? heh | 21:38 |
| javispedro | i uploaded a new gui to fremantle drnoksnes and i'd like a main gui screenshot / comment. | 21:38 |
| AStorm | 1 column and a square | 21:39 |
| javispedro | please :) | 21:39 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: Solved the scaling issue? | 21:39 |
| javispedro | Jaffa: no, not yet (i'm going to try sw scaling in openttd first) | 21:39 |
| qwerty12_N810 | fiferboy: You should look at Fremantle's osso-xterm, then | 21:39 |
| AStorm | qwerty12_N810: do you have screenshots of it? | 21:39 |
| javispedro | just a new gui, having read the fremantle layout guide | 21:39 |
| javispedro | (more like: "Having glazed at the screenshots" ;) ) | 21:40 |
| qwerty12_N810 | AStorm: No, I'm looking at it on device and it's not my software... so no screenies, alas | 21:40 |
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| fiferboy | qwerty12_N810: It is installable in the SDK, but I don't know how to launch it | 21:42 |
| AStorm | I mean, osso-xterm from fremantle | 21:42 |
| qwerty12_N810 | fiferboy: Hmm, it should launch? I had a brief stint with it in the SDK making its shortcut bar vertical | 21:43 |
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| fiferboy | qwerty12_N810: There is no desktop file for it, or it is in the wrong place... | 21:43 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | Build it manually, then, and use maemo-invoker on the osso-xterm.launch file (can't remember if it has a no-launcher DEB_BUILD_OPTION or equivalent) | 21:44 |
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| wazd_ | I wonder who will make interface builder with maemo widgets and themes applied | 21:46 |
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| fiferboy | Hmm, actually maybe it does work in the SDK, it didn't install for me since my network connection is borked | 21:47 |
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| javispedro | fiferboy: WORKSFORME, FREMANTLE_X86 | 21:50 |
| fiferboy | javispedro: Excellent, I will check it out | 21:50 |
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| akshay | Hello, I recompiled the scribble example of Qt to run on n810. It is working but the scribbling is not smooth. It seems the mouse press, mouse move and mouse released events are not triggered properly. I hope the problem is clear. Is there any solution to it? | 21:51 |
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| javispedro | not very stable here though. | 21:52 |
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| lcuk | akshay, mmm? | 21:52 |
| CutMeOwnThroat | GeneralAntilles, hmm? | 21:52 |
| lcuk | explain not smooth | 21:52 |
| Mousey | so its true, no more n810 production | 21:53 |
| Mousey | ? | 21:53 |
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| CutMeOwnThroat | is it? | 21:54 |
| CutMeOwnThroat | actually, now that GeneralAntilles woke me... | 21:54 |
| akshay | lcuk: if say u draw an arc it will not draw a smooth arc. It will draw 2-3 conected lines | 21:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | CutMeOwnThroat, what? | 21:54 |
| CutMeOwnThroat | I wonder if there's a way to track power-consumption and what causes it on the n810 | 21:54 |
| CutMeOwnThroat | GeneralAntilles, you highlighted me! | 21:54 |
| lcuk | akshay, which system/os/hardware? | 21:54 |
| javispedro | that's such a fine art. | 21:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | CutMeOwnThroat, I did? I thought I highlighted crashanddie. Oh well. | 21:55 |
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| CutMeOwnThroat | "* GeneralAntilles pours some capital letters down lcuk's throat." lcuksMeOwnThroat? | 21:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sorry | 21:55 |
| akshay | lcuk: i am running this application on maemo 4 running on n810 | 21:55 |
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| lcuk | akshay :) you are limited by cpu and graphical constraints. | 21:56 |
| lcuk | which was the principle reason i started liqbase ;) | 21:56 |
| CutMeOwnThroat | Sometimes the battery in my n810 gets drained within... perhaps even just 2 hours and I don't really know whats causing it | 21:56 |
| CutMeOwnThroat | GPS seems to drain a lot.... | 21:56 |
| akshay | lcuk: But if i use Xournal it scribbles properly ? | 21:56 |
| lcuk | define properly. you mean more points i gather | 21:57 |
| CutMeOwnThroat | but there I nearly think it might be the constant recalculation of the map app that's causing that | 21:57 |
| * lcuk was never happy with drawing a circle and getting a diamond | 21:57 | |
| fiferboy | lcuk, I think it is a bit wierd to list a font four times, once for normal, once for bold, once for italic, and once for bold AND italic | 21:57 |
| akshay | lcuk: So it seems to be a limitation of Qt | 21:57 |
| * CutMeOwnThroat would sell the diamond and be quite happy! | 21:57 | |
| fiferboy | That would not pass an introduction to data normalization course! | 21:57 |
| lcuk | fiferboy, mmm who said list like that? lol | 21:57 |
| fiferboy | That is what it looks like in xterm in the SDK | 21:58 |
| fiferboy | Pannable, yes, but very repetitive | 21:58 |
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| akshay | lcuk: Is this one for me "define properly. you mean more points i gather" ? | 21:58 |
| fiferboy | Oops, bbiab | 21:58 |
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| timo2 | I'd imagine the font types are in separate files and there's no clearcut way to find out what files are part of the same font face | 21:59 |
| lcuk | yeah akshay it was a rhetorical question really | 21:59 |
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| Jaffa | pvanhoof: ping | 22:12 |
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| akshay | lcuk: See.... In Scribble example of Qt, we can draw over an image using mouse. It starts the drawing when mouse press event is triggered and as we move the mouse (while it is pressed) the application keeps on connecting the coordinates(using drawLine()) through which the mouse passes. This stops on moouse release. It works perfectly on my x86 laptop. Now I have recompiled for running on maemo 4 running on n810. When I try to draw | 22:12 |
| akshay | lcuk: If say I try to make a circle, it wont draw a circle. It will connect a few dots on the circle by using lines. Possibly this is because mouse move event is NOT triggered at each little movement of the stylus. | 22:12 |
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| akshay | lcuk: link to Qts scribble example- http://doc.trolltech.com/4.3/widgets-scribble.html | 22:13 |
| lcuk | no akshay its probably caused by lag and slowness | 22:13 |
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| akshay | but the Xournal application which runs on the same hardware and OS does the job perfectly well | 22:14 |
| johnsq | akshay: did the example use the time of event as timebase? | 22:14 |
| lbt | akshay: it is | 22:14 |
| lbt | it is triggered at each little move | 22:14 |
| akshay | johnsq: nop | 22:14 |
| lcuk | akshay, ;( that looks simple enough to eat | 22:15 |
| lcuk | shame it cant handle it | 22:15 |
| lcuk | akshay, qt is obviously doing much much more | 22:15 |
| lcuk | turn off AA and blending and stuff | 22:15 |
| akshay | lcuk: and there is no bug files on this | 22:16 |
| lcuk | if you think xournal is fast, you should try liqbase ;) | 22:16 |
| lcuk | akshay, i think its not a bug that can be cured easily | 22:16 |
| akshay | can it be done on Qt? | 22:16 |
| lcuk | with the current widgetset? | 22:17 |
| akshay | i mean can liqbase be used with Qt ? | 22:17 |
| lcuk | not yet | 22:17 |
| lcuk | its a c library | 22:17 |
| lcuk | and very simplistic | 22:17 |
| lcuk | it would need lots of hacking help to add the functionality required | 22:17 |
| lcuk | and then a nice qt wrapper | 22:18 |
| lcuk | it does lots already tho | 22:18 |
| akshay | ok | 22:18 |
| akshay | and is there a seperate IRC channel for maemo-qt | 22:18 |
| akshay | ? | 22:18 |
| lcuk | i dunno | 22:18 |
| akshay | and any idea will this scribble example work on n900 ? | 22:19 |
| lcuk | no idea at all | 22:19 |
| lcuk | and i dont know how to compile qt apps | 22:19 |
| lcuk | to be able to tell you | 22:19 |
| akshay | ok. thanks for all the information | 22:19 |
| lcuk | np :) | 22:20 |
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| lardman | hmm, so v4l2camsrc is where it's at | 22:28 |
| lbt | akshay: qt will work fine on the N900 | 22:29 |
| lbt | I'm 100% sure that scribble will work :) | 22:29 |
| lbt | it may need some tweaking to make sure the menus appear correctly etc... but that's all | 22:29 |
| akshay | lbt: ok, thank you :) | 22:29 |
| akshay | any idea why it is not working properly on n810 ? | 22:30 |
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| lbt | no | 22:31 |
| lbt | try debug prints | 22:32 |
| lbt | in mouseMoveEvent() | 22:32 |
| akshay | okay. thanks | 22:32 |
| lbt | Diablo? | 22:32 |
| akshay | ya | 22:32 |
| lbt | latest Qt from extras? | 22:32 |
| akshay | u mean in the sdk? yes | 22:33 |
| lbt | if you get some debug output then please yell and pastebin it for me | 22:33 |
| akshay | okay. i will do that | 22:33 |
| lbt | interpret the *event and pull out relevant data - including timestamps | 22:34 |
| lcuk | 20:08 Mousedown | 22:34 |
| lcuk | 20:34 MouseMove | 22:34 |
| lcuk | 21:46 Mouseup | 22:34 |
| akshay | okay okay i got | 22:34 |
| lbt | there should be a *lot* so maybe only print if LeftButton | 22:34 |
| lbt | and don't vote for lcuk | 22:35 |
| lbt | :D | 22:35 |
| lcuk | on device there should only be left button | 22:35 |
| lcuk | :D | 22:35 |
| akshay | :) | 22:35 |
| lcuk | really, dont - i'd rather have money | 22:35 |
| lbt | not if you're right handed | 22:35 |
| lbt | my FAN is whirring | 22:35 |
| lcuk | o_O | 22:36 |
| * lcuk just realised | 22:36 | |
| lbt | it goes fast | 22:36 |
| lbt | then it goes slow | 22:36 |
| lbt | then it goes fast | 22:36 |
| lcuk | :D | 22:36 |
| lbt | then it goes slow | 22:36 |
| lbt | (there's a loop) | 22:36 |
| lbt | (for the harware types that probably don't realise) | 22:36 |
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| * lcuk just had lights come on like a frikkin nuclear bomb! | 22:37 | |
| slonopotamus | lbt,they usually use overlap to prevent such behaviour | 22:37 |
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| lbt | what? hardware types? | 22:37 |
| slonopotamus | who is it? | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: aliens are coming | 22:38 |
| slonopotamus | i didn't mean anyone particular | 22:38 |
| lcuk | slonopotamus, depending on location they can be travelling in opposite directions | 22:38 |
| slonopotamus | like 'they say' | 22:38 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, i know that | 22:38 |
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| slonopotamus | lcuk, o_O | 22:38 |
| * lbt is confused | 22:38 | |
| lcuk | i tohught one was heading upstairs speaking in tongues. until i realised it was jacob talkign to the kitten in babytalk | 22:39 |
| * lcuk needs typocure | 22:39 | |
| slonopotamus | lbt, just write proper fw for your fan :) | 22:39 |
| lcuk | i think he has | 22:39 |
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| slonopotamus | who he? has what? | 22:39 |
| lbt | yeah... isn't that how the n900 got a usb otg that should be called off the go | 22:39 |
| * slonopotamus is confused | 22:39 | |
| * lbt writes fan fw in python | 22:40 | |
| lbt | http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/ | 22:40 |
| lbt | 2nd articl | 22:40 |
| lbt | e | 22:40 |
| slonopotamus | nooo | 22:40 |
| slonopotamus | i won't start up browser | 22:41 |
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| dastagg | I have a question please. I currently use two programs for task management: etm and Remind on my laptop. | 22:42 |
| lbt | urls? | 22:43 |
| slonopotamus | 'task management'? | 22:43 |
| dastagg | etm is python so I'm guessing that will work on the N900 but I've looked for remind but I don't see it. | 22:43 |
| slonopotamus | like... todo notes? | 22:43 |
| lbt | remembering things | 22:43 |
| dastagg | Can anyone tell me if remind will work on the N900? | 22:44 |
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| slonopotamus | out of the box - no | 22:44 |
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| Stskeeps | remind is what again? | 22:44 |
| slonopotamus | i mean, without patching | 22:44 |
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| * lcuk makes a note to check out remind | 22:45 | |
| slonopotamus | err | 22:45 |
| dastagg | a program that displays events like birthday's and anniversaries and display them | 22:45 |
| slonopotamus | lcuk, you don't have remind so can't make a note | 22:45 |
| lcuk | i have liqbase | 22:45 |
| * lbt does apt-get install remind on Mer just because it works | 22:45 | |
| lcuk | and i take notes in it everyday | 22:46 |
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| lcuk | lol lbt :D | 22:46 |
| lcuk | classy | 22:46 |
| * lbt is now running remind dastagg.... :) | 22:46 | |
| pupnik_ | keesj: pong | 22:46 |
| lbt | REMIND 03.01.05 (English version) Copyright 1992-1998 David F. Skoll | 22:47 |
| lbt | Copyright 1999-2008 Roaring Penguin Software Inc. | 22:47 |
| lcuk | dastagg, go have a look round the maemo apps list http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/ | 22:47 |
| dastagg | That's the one. Are you running it on N810? | 22:47 |
| johnsq | is it defined that c arguments are executed from left to right? | 22:47 |
| lbt | n800 | 22:47 |
| lcuk | johnsq, exectued? you mean evaluated? | 22:48 |
| lbt | it pulled in tkremind wyrd | 22:48 |
| dastagg | lcuk: Thats were I am on and did a search for it but it came back blank. | 22:48 |
| lbt | so they'd need porting to the N900 | 22:48 |
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| johnsq | yes evaluated (no native english speaker) | 22:48 |
| lbt | ah but you're not running a cool OS | 22:48 |
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| lcuk | dastagg, its not been specifically ported | 22:48 |
| lardman | how hard is it to wrap an entire GStreamer class for Python? | 22:48 |
| lcuk | but im guessing as a console app it should work | 22:48 |
| lcuk | tho wouldnt be optimal for platform | 22:48 |
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| lbt | dastagg: I'm running Mer which is essentially ubuntu | 22:49 |
| lcuk | lbt is working in the hacker edition of maemo - called mer - its not the default os (yet?!) | 22:49 |
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| lbt | OTOH this will tell you that running it on the N900 will be fine | 22:49 |
| dastagg | lcuk: perhaps not but I've been using them and they work really well and work together really well. | 22:49 |
| * lcuk nods | 22:49 | |
| derf | johnsq: No, it is not. | 22:49 |
| lcuk | then get the maemo sdk and try to build it | 22:49 |
| lcuk | if it works great for you | 22:50 |
| lcuk | it can be pushed to extras | 22:50 |
| lcuk | and others that follow will be able to find it | 22:50 |
| johnsq | derf: than i know the failure, i do eval(pop, pop). | 22:50 |
| dastagg | lcuk: one more followup question please: if those apps were installed, would I be able to rsync the data files | 22:51 |
| dastagg | between my laptop and the N900? | 22:51 |
| lcuk | with rsync.. ? | 22:51 |
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| lcuk | i use ssh between desktop and nxxx | 22:51 |
| lcuk | but you could setup one of many transport mechanisms | 22:51 |
| lcuk | i think the n900 has a pigeon coop port | 22:52 |
| pupnik_ | :) | 22:52 |
| lcuk | note, they have to be small pigeons | 22:52 |
| dastagg | I'm not familiar with that program. | 22:53 |
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| dastagg | but thank you for the answers about remind and rsync. | 22:54 |
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| lcuk | np | 22:56 |
| * lcuk rests | 22:56 | |
| lcuk | cyas later \o | 22:56 |
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| akshay | lbt: Plz check this link- http://discussion.forum.nokia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=151307. This guy faced the same problem and has done some debugging too. | 23:01 |
| lbt | lcuk: http://www.flickr.com/photos/96141280@N00/3942338872/ | 23:01 |
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| lbt | akshay: looking BTW | 23:05 |
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| johnsq | aua, people have too much money. http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/21/n900-hacked-to-replace-the-innards-of-a-speak-and-spell-can-never/ | 23:11 |
| asj_wrk- | I want to see the front... | 23:11 |
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| SpeedEvil | johnsq: it was a demo | 23:12 |
| SpeedEvil | It wasn't a practical project | 23:12 |
| lcuk | asj_wrk-, it looks the same as a regular one - down to the typeface, except it sends text messages | 23:12 |
| SpeedEvil | To do 'cool/ things with the n900 | 23:12 |
| lcuk | it was really practical | 23:12 |
| asj_wrk- | lcuk: sweet | 23:13 |
| lcuk | leave it in the kids room and see how many swear words they try to do | 23:13 |
| SpeedEvil | I mean - it wasn't a practical project in terms of the marketplace. | 23:13 |
| lcuk | it was a hack | 23:13 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 23:13 |
| johnsq | lcuk: hehe | 23:13 |
| * lcuk loves hacking | 23:13 | |
| asj_wrk- | I can't imagin typing on the alphabetic key board | 23:13 |
| lcuk | im not meant to be here tho | 23:13 |
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| * lcuk goes again | 23:14 | |
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| johnsq | I'm searching a kinetic scroll example source code (if possible in C). | 23:24 |
| javispedro | johnsq: HildonPannableArea | 23:24 |
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| johnsq | javispedro: very much gtk, but better than nothing. | 23:32 |
| javispedro | same I though. | 23:32 |
| javispedro | if you want to read it with "very much C++ and openttd" you can read the implementation of that I made in openttd ;) | 23:33 |
| javispedro | but it's nearly the same algorithm (the simpler one) | 23:33 |
| johnsq | javispedro: I want to add it to my picture viewer to scoll the pictures. | 23:33 |
| javispedro | that's the best sample I could find. | 23:34 |
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| tush726 | I am not new to open source but I have read stuff about everything from the linux kernel to embedded systems but personally feel that i have not been able to contribute to any open source project till date . I find maemo very interesting as it involves embedded systems. How do I actually start contributing ? | 23:35 |
| tush726 | I am a third year undergraduate Computer Science student | 23:36 |
| johnsq | tush726: that depends on your skills, when you understand C/C++/Python, than look what you miss or dislike with existing projects than try to fix this problem. | 23:36 |
| keesj | or ask, learn, listen, evolve and help people | 23:37 |
| johnsq | tush726: even non developer are a help, find bugs and report them. | 23:38 |
| SpeedEvil | In many ways it's not an embedded project. | 23:38 |
| SpeedEvil | At all. | 23:38 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil: it still gets some of the fun. | 23:39 |
| SpeedEvil | It's a desktop project that happens to run on a phone. | 23:39 |
| * javispedro always wondered why coding for pdas is more fun than coding for desktop. | 23:39 | |
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| javispedro | because users expect simpler programs? simpler apis? simpler toolkits? because you can take your apps "on the go"? | 23:39 |
| javispedro | I dunno. | 23:39 |
| johnsq | javispedro: perhaps you can build smaller projects? | 23:39 |
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| javispedro | johnsq: yeah, that may be it :) | 23:40 |
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| tush7260 | got dc | 23:43 |
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| mk8 | Hi guys ... I'm test a VirtualPC ready for maemo .... 'cause I am on Linux environment I use VirtualBox to run VirtualPC Image (yes, it run) .... unfortunally I have problem to run Install_Nokia_Binary ... | 23:52 |
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| mk8 | The shell wait forever in "99% [8 Packaged gzip 0] ... | 23:53 |
| mk8 | anyone can help me? | 23:53 |
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