IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2009-09-10

lbtshe's *not* having a car00:00
Proteoushah00:03
jeremiah_acouto: gcc00:04
jeremiah_acouto: Do you want to compile C++ files on the device?00:04
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jeremiah_acouto: Mightn't it be easier in the SDK?00:05
acoutoyes00:05
jeremiah_acouto: http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_2_sdk/00:06
jeremiah_^^ That is the link to the SDK.00:06
jeremiah_It will make your life easier.00:06
RST38hhe is looking for n81000:06
acoutoill install scratchbox and the sdk00:06
jeremiah_RST38h: Oh, you're right00:06
RST38hi.e. he needs diablo sdk00:06
jeremiah_Sorry00:06
jeremiah_http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_2_sdk/00:07
jeremiah_shit00:07
jeremiah_http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_4-1-2_diablo/00:07
RST38hand I would suggest sdk+ instead00:07
jeremiah_^^ There we are00:07
acoutook...00:07
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acoutothanks jeremiah and RST38h00:08
RST38hacouto: Try this one: http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/install.html00:08
RST38hacouto: It is saner than the original sb100:08
qwerty12_N810It is?00:09
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RST38hqwerty: Well you do not need NFS to access your files, that I consider saner =)00:09
qwerty12_N810:)00:09
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RST38hafaik, it has still got some problems with transparent debugging, but if you copy+test on the device, this issue never arises00:10
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javispedroRST38h, does it still do that long I-don't-know-what-it's-for process enumerating all installed debian packages everytime you modify the dpkg database?00:13
javispedro(sb2)00:13
javispedroit nearly took a full hour in this machine, and made debugging packaging a pain.00:14
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JaffaAnyone in the UK watching Derren Brown at 22:35?00:20
SpeedEvilno, are you on it?00:20
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JaffaNo, he's predicting the lottery numbers about 5 minutes before they're drawn (apparently)00:22
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JaffaI'm abroad so can't watch00:22
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SpeedEvilah00:24
SpeedEvilNo host in the UK?00:24
SpeedEvilI mean to run get_iplayer on00:25
mfinkleis strace available on maemo 5?00:25
JaffaSpeedEvil: Oh, I can watch it off BBC Redux tomorrow00:26
SpeedEviloh - channel 400:27
SpeedEviloops00:27
SpeedEvilJaffa: I think it's probably safe to say 'no he can't.00:27
JaffaSpeedEvil: Well, he's the first to admit it'll be a trick/misdirection and is going to explain how he did/intended to do it on Friday00:28
SpeedEvilJaffa: Audience mislead about the current time - job done00:29
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SpeedEvilOr you have several hundred million audience members - tell them all a different number - and silently kill and remove all the ones you told the non-winning numbers to.00:30
JaffaBut it's being broadcast live. So you can watch him predict the numbers and then switch to BBC One and watch the draw, live.00:30
JaffaSpeedEvil: That'd work ;-)00:31
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lardmanre00:35
lardmanbloody Derren Brown00:35
SpeedEvillardman: he's less annoying than the gitwizard.00:36
lardmanif he were that good he wouldn't need a blue screen advert to walk across the traffic00:36
SpeedEvilMarginally.00:36
lardman:)00:36
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SpeedEvilThough that did produce some comedy gold. - Blain in the box.00:37
SpeedEvilPeople flying model helis with burgers attached round him.00:37
lardmanyeah I heard about that :)00:38
lardmanhe's still a tw*t though00:38
JaffaYeah, but he's still a gitwizard00:38
JaffaAt least Derren Brown doesn't appear to take himself too seriously00:38
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lardmanI wouldn't know, have to change the channel whenever his annoying adverts come on :)00:40
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Jaffa:)00:40
lardmanso in fact ch4, or whoever it is, are doing themselves a disservice there, I don't watch their ads ;)00:40
JaffaAh, apparently (according to Twitter) he's going to show his predictions after the draw00:41
ShadowJKmagic is like sofware, full of hacks that create the illusion that shit works00:41
javispedrothat would be engineering00:42
javispedro:)00:42
lardmanoi, leave engineers out of it :p00:42
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ShadowJKrandom number of the day: power consumption of N800 tethered to Nokia E70, N800 running rsync over gprs at 5kByte/s to mmc1, screen off: 60mA00:44
lardman+1 for the randomness :)00:45
ShadowJKthe low power consumption continues to amaze me00:45
SpeedEvilthat's damn good00:46
RST38bisat 1500mah you could rsync for 25 hours00:46
SpeedEvil@5v?00:46
SpeedEviloh - usb00:46
SpeedEvilOh - the connection is over USB00:46
ShadowJKat li-ion voltages00:46
Proteousprobably bluetooth00:46
SpeedEvilthat's not so great then00:46
ShadowJKover bluetooth.00:46
RST38bisbut do add e70 consumption00:46
SpeedEvilOh - I was assuming that was tethered by USB and measured on USB00:46
SpeedEvilnot bad indeed.00:47
ShadowJKRST38bis: no way to measure :)00:47
ShadowJKit's warm and on the charger00:47
Proteoussure, huck up some leads to the battery connections00:47
Proteoushook00:47
ShadowJKe70 has the older s60 os before energy profiler support00:47
merkuralex_Who here plans to buy a n900?00:47
* ShadowJK 00:47
Proteousme... at some point00:48
ShadowJKyeah at some point00:48
Proteousjust need a buyer for my n9700:48
GAN8001_Depends on discount programs and AT&T 3G support.00:48
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* GeneralAntilles mutters evil things about Comcast.00:48
merkuralex_...yeah i want to but it would have to drop in price alot and i would need AT&T 3g support...00:48
Proteousfuc att00:48
merkuralex_well not alot in price probably like 100$00:48
ShadowJKproteus: yeah I thought it'd be a year still before n900 and had bought a e7500:48
GeneralAntillesProteous, no T-Mobile 3G support in my area.00:48
merkuralex_where i live t-mobile is complete crap00:48
Proteousyeah, me either. but there will be soon00:49
merkuralex_i get literally not t-mobile signal basically everywhere i have gone00:49
Proteoustmobile is installing a new cell about 1000ft from my house :P00:49
merkuralex_no*00:49
merkuralex_well then your lucky lol00:49
ShadowJKI think I'm skipping preorder and waiting for availability in shops... my operator also said they'd offer it so I'm waiting to see what they come up with00:50
fbjspeaking of which, but I was wondering if you could help me out... I use a usb stick to carry my data files between home and work, giving easy access to everything wherever I need (and Eee for commuting). Is there a chance of N900/Maemo supporting usb data access as-is either at launch or in the future, like a proper computer? So that I could access and edit .txt files etc...00:50
Proteousyeah, I'm not going to preorder one like I did my n9700:50
lardmanwhat was the conclusion on uk tariffs? O2 payt?00:50
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merkuralex_im tempted to get my n810 back out and play with it again... i was going to sell it on ebay but i really would miss it lol00:50
lardmanor O2 30day even?00:50
SpeedEvilfbj: yes00:50
Proteouswell, unless there is a preorder bug like there was with my n97...00:50
SpeedEvilfbj: simply plug a stick in - with an adaptor - and it can access it like a proper computer.00:50
GeneralAntillesfbj, should be really easy with the proper OTG adaptor.00:51
fbjreally?00:51
fbjI think that made my day then :)00:51
SpeedEvilfbj: more wackily - setup the right USB gadget driver - and the n900 can be your memory stick00:51
fbjis N900 the first phone that supports this then?00:51
johnsqfbj: your usb stick should not need more than 100ma00:51
SpeedEvilfbj: no00:51
Proteousmy n97 works great as a USB stick00:51
ShadowJKspeedevil: though there have been reports of it not working00:51
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SpeedEvilfbj: my Openmoko neo1973 works both ways - device and host00:51
GeneralAntillesfbj, yes, you'll want to avoid USB sticks with giant LEDs.00:51
SpeedEvilShadowJK: yeah - but with more testers - barring actual hardware problems...00:52
fbjheh... yeah. sounds good enough00:52
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ShadowJKI wonder if the usb charging means it can't supply power out anymore00:52
GeneralAntillesShadowJK, sure it can, at 100mA as always.00:52
SpeedEvilShadowJK: shouldn't00:52
SpeedEvilShadowJK: openmoko freerunner can do 500mA powering stuff00:52
ShadowJKiirc on n810 there's a dedicated chip for the usb power out00:53
SpeedEvil(and charge from the same port)00:53
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ShadowJKand on 770 from what ive read it couldnt provide power00:53
ShadowJKbut people worked around it with hubs providing power in both directions00:53
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ShadowJKwhat *will* work out of the box for sure is n900 as usb stick. Connect it to your eee, and it shows up as 32-ish gig drive00:55
Mekif/when you enable mass storage mode on your n900, by default it only charges I think00:56
ShadowJKMy personal guess would be that it does like s60, pops up a dialog asking you what to do00:56
Mekyeah00:57
* Jaffa can answert this without supposition.00:57
Mekthat's true00:57
JaffaYou plug a USB cable into the N900. If it is just connected to a power adapter, it charges.00:57
ShadowJKjaffa: surely not00:57
JaffaIf it is connected to a computer, it starts charging and asks if you want USB mass storage or PC suite. Tap outside the box for charging only00:57
ShadowJKyou need the special cables with shorted datapins, right?00:58
lardmanah, good it asks00:58
ShadowJKjust power over usb shouldn't start charging00:58
JaffaIf you have a USB OTG cable (or adapter), I *assume* it works.00:58
JaffaShadowJK: Of course it should. MicroUSB is the new cross-manufacturer charging plug standard.00:58
* ShadowJK tested on Nokia e75 and it didn't charge with just power applied00:58
ShadowJKyeah and that standard says a charger identifies itself by shorting the datapins00:59
JaffaShadowJK: I *assure* you that just power applied charges the N900. There are two sockets on it: 3.5mm headphone/AV socket and microUSB.00:59
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JaffaShadowJK: And I said if it was connected to a power adapter. What that power adapter sends down the cable is of no concern to me.01:00
SpeedEvilOooh - 3.5mm.01:00
SpeedEvilThe power adaptor shorts the D+ and D- pins01:00
JaffaIt doesn't ask you what to do with it, as it doesn't recognise a USB compatible host at the other end01:00
SpeedEvilto tell the phone it's a charger01:00
SpeedEvil(well - device)01:00
JaffaRight.01:00
SpeedEvilTo tell the device it's a charger01:01
JaffaThis works with off-the-shelf mains USB charger adapters, the MicroUSB-terminated charger which ships with it and normal USB connections to laptops01:01
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ShadowJKyeah so it doesn't charge if you've got, for example, powered usb hub not attached to computer. There is power, but nobody is talking on the data lines, and they aren't shorted, so no charge01:01
ShadowJKthe usb charger adapters have shorted data lines of course.01:02
javispedroshouldn't it trickle charge then?01:02
SpeedEviljavispedro: Trickle charging from a suspended bus would be bad.01:02
Jaffaas if it were connected to a computer?01:02
GAN800S60 IRC. Finally.01:02
SpeedEviljavispedro: you should be able to detect the difference though.01:02
javispedrowhile connected to a hub not connected to a computer.01:03
SpeedEvilhub not connected to a computer doesn't assert any particular value on the datalines - it tristates them01:03
SpeedEvilat least on the one that I measured01:03
ShadowJKanyway, n900 comes with small-nokia-plug to microusb adapter, which has datalines shorted, so that took care of my biggest interoperability concerns01:04
* ShadowJK had no motivation for butchering and soldering usb cables for his external batterypacks01:04
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lardmanAnyone use 3 here as their provider?01:05
SpeedEvilsort-of01:05
lardmantheir sim-only offers have a dash where it should state "Internet allowance", what does that mean?01:05
SpeedEvillardman: you're looking at the wrong one01:06
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SpeedEvillardman: look over to the right01:06
lardmanpay as you go?01:06
SpeedEvillardman: that offers a 150M allowance for 90 days - that doesn't time out.01:06
SpeedEvillardman: however - I haven't actually managed to get ppp connecting with this in my 3 modem bought off ebay. It fails after CHAP success01:07
lardmanhmm, still cheaper with O2 or Tmobile from the looks of it though01:07
SpeedEvillardman: I recommend however not 301:07
lardmanassuming I'll use more than 150Mb in 3 months01:07
SpeedEvillardman: vodaphone01:07
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SpeedEvillardman: tenner gets you a gig - which doesn't timeout01:08
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lardmanhmm, would be interesting to know how much data people actually use on these phones01:08
SpeedEvilI got one of these - http://shop.vodafone.co.uk/shop/mobile-broadband-devices/usb-modem-stick-topup-and-go?compatible=false01:08
SpeedEviloops01:08
SpeedEvilI just realised you probably also want to use it as an actual phone01:08
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SpeedEvilI'm not sure this SIM supports this.01:08
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lardmanyeah, np01:09
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lardmanthe phone deals are cheaper but less data iirc01:09
lardmangig for a tenner, hmm01:09
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lardmanI'm currently switching to Vodafone payg, so that I can switch to £10/month 30day contract; though I might reconsider01:10
merkuralex_Is Mer going to support Maemo 5 apps?01:10
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SpeedEvillardman: that was 15/G - not 10/G I was wrong. Oh - and the 'mobile broadband' thing doesn't seem to work for phonecalls - you need a pay monthly contract and 15 quid/mo for 3Gig/mo - as far as I can see (voda)01:14
SpeedEvillardman: http://online.vodafone.co.uk/dispatch/Portal/appmanager/vodafone/wrp?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=template10&pageID=MB_002201:14
lardmanI think you can get a 1G/month bolt on for £5/month01:14
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b-man16~seen xnt1401:15
infobotxnt14 <n=xnt14@pool-98-113-71-238.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 21h 19m 9s ago, saying: 'finally, its up.... ;)'.01:16
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b-man16x_x01:16
lardmanhttp://online.vodafone.co.uk/dispatch/Portal/appmanager/vodafone/wrp?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=templateBlank&pageID=MI_000101:16
lardmanValue pack01:16
SpeedEvilAh - right.01:16
SpeedEvillardman: 5/mo for 500M01:17
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lardmanoh right01:17
SpeedEvillardman: annoying of course you can't bolt the same rates as you get for the USB stick on the phone tarrif01:17
lardmanyeah01:17
lardmanso how much data do people actually use?01:18
lardmanJaffa, lcuk2: how much have you guys used thus far?01:18
SpeedEvilGonna depend on what you do.01:18
lardmantrue01:18
lardmanshame I can't store it up for when I need it :)01:19
SpeedEvilIf I'm using the computer normally - I am bouncing around 100M/day01:19
SpeedEvilIf I'm streaming - I hit gigs01:19
lardmanyeah but a phone, even a very smart phone won't use that much01:19
SpeedEvilof course01:19
SpeedEvilbut still the same applies01:19
lardmanbut still, if it's in the 20-30Mb/day, it's going to add up01:19
SpeedEvilChecking email - or streaming The Sky At Night.01:19
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* SpeedEvil needs to get his web compressor done.01:20
lardmanI have wifi at work & home, so I will only really need it when I'm out and about, not sure how much that will be in truth01:20
lardmanyuck, nasty photos with those things01:20
lardmanresampled, etc01:20
SpeedEvillardman: not quite doing that.01:21
lardmancompressing the text data?01:21
SpeedEvillardman: A) Device has large cache - say 100M or so.01:21
SpeedEvillardman: B) Device only connects to proxy server01:21
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SpeedEvillardman: C) proxy server has a copy of devices cache01:21
lardmanah ok01:21
lardmanso only send stuff that is actually new01:21
SpeedEvillardman: D) Any pages device requests are sent as diffs01:21
SpeedEvilyeah01:21
SpeedEvillardman: ebay.co.uk - changes everytime you load it. So simple 'is it new' won't work.01:22
SpeedEvilBut diffs are tiny - 0.5K or under out of 60K01:22
lardmannice idea01:22
SpeedEvilCompared to maybe 15K by just compressing.01:22
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SpeedEvilAdd to that stuff like converting jpegs to progressive jpegs - and sending only the first 1/8th - if user asks01:23
lardmanyeah that's a good idea01:23
SpeedEvilOr more funkily - user requests page - and cache notices completely unrelated page has large chunks of same code - and sends it diffed from that unrelated page01:23
jaskaalso one could use the deviceside cache as a compression dictionary assist01:23
SpeedEviljaska: that's the basic idea.01:24
SpeedEviljaska: you're using the large shared dictionary - the cache - as the context for the compression.01:24
jaskayea01:24
lardmanhave to replicate the cache emptying on the PC too then01:24
SpeedEvillardman: yes - this wouldn't be a normal browser cache - but some sort of caching proxy.01:25
lardmanthough that's easy enough, all open source01:25
lardmanah of course01:25
SpeedEvillardman: at least initially - building it into browser eventually would make sense - but unless you could deploy it onto all servers - and you can't - you're going to need a proxy for the forseeable future.01:26
SpeedEvil(can't deploy onto servers as it requires them to store the last several days/weeks context for every user)01:26
lardmanbring on holographic storage!01:27
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SpeedEvilScrew that - bring on inexpensive fast internet - and I wouldn't have to code stuff.01:27
lardmanhmm interesting, vodafone payg charges up to 50p/day for a max of 25Mb01:27
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SpeedEvilt-mobile do up to 2 pounds - but for a lot more data01:28
lardmanjust thinking that on the ocassions I don;t have wifi, I probably won't need much data01:29
SpeedEvilyeah01:29
SpeedEvilI rarely have occasions when I have to watch 17 youtube videos in a row.01:30
SpeedEvillardman: especially given you have 32/64G on the device stored01:30
lardmanit would be good if Vodafone had just let me change my plan and keep my number, rather than arsing about as usual01:30
lardman:)01:30
lardmannormally just want the cricket results and to check my emails, some maps, etc01:31
SpeedEvillardman: I think you can port your number to O2/... - then back to voda01:32
SpeedEvilinsane01:32
lardmanouch ~£5/25Mb no matter which deal for data abroad w/ Vodafone01:32
lardmanSpeedEvil: well they've changed it, or rather are changing it to payg, then I understand they will be willing to change it up to a monthly contract01:33
lardmanmadness!01:33
SpeedEvilerr01:33
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SpeedEvilI'm sure tehre was a 'never pay more abroad' or something01:34
SpeedEvilor maybe that diddn't include data01:35
lardmanI think they've dropped the normal phone call/sms costs, but data is still up there01:35
lardmanhmm, can't see any detail about O2 bolt-on packages...01:36
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SpeedEvildata prices are a lot better than they were in the UK - but still got some way to go01:38
lardmanhmm, T-mob looks decent too: 30day contract, 600min, unlimited texts, 1Gb/month data01:39
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lardmanfor £2001:39
SpeedEvilI went with voda as I wasn't needing calls - and doesn't expire01:40
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lardmanI use ~£15/month on calls & texts, so payt isn't really very good for me01:41
SpeedEvilskype not an answer I assume?01:41
lardmanno, calling other mobiles mainly01:42
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DavideJaffa, hi01:43
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dantonicJaffa, thanks for your help man... I just changed fstab and am rebooting right now... gonna see if I can exec from mmc101:44
dantoniccan fstab be reloaded without having to reboot?01:45
SpeedEvilyou can manually mount or remove filesystems01:46
dantonicSpeedEvil, how would I do that?01:46
dantonicjust mount01:46
SpeedEvilmount /dev/foo /mnt/bar01:46
SpeedEvilur umount /dev/foo01:46
dantonicah ok01:46
dantonic:P01:46
lardmanso what is HSDPA? 2G or 3G?01:46
SpeedEvilwith any options you want01:46
SpeedEvil3g01:46
dantoniclardman, 3g01:46
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dantonicok01:47
dantonic<---- Linux noob01:47
lardmanthanks01:47
SpeedEvillardman: GPRS/EDGE is 2G data01:47
lardmanso T-mobile have no coverage in Bath for 3G services01:47
dantonicI wish tmobile would provide better coverage already... I have so many dead spots!01:47
SpeedEvilWacky. I have coverage in my tiny little village in scotland.01:48
dantonicand not just 3G totally dead spots!01:48
dantonicI'm in USA01:48
lardmanhmm, or their map is knackered (or my eyes), not even coverage in Londinium01:48
lardmanhttp://www.t-mobile.co.uk/services/coverage/street-check/01:48
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merkuralex_yeah tmobile claims to have AMAZING coverage where i live i tried them for a bit... complete crap01:49
lardmanah, wrong tab, rubbish page01:49
lardmanstrange how the foothills in Wales have such good T-mobile coverage01:51
lardmanfor the SAS men to check the cricket scores no doubt :)01:52
SpeedEvillardman: Lack of NIMBYs01:52
lardmanyeah01:52
lardmanwell my only conclusion is that the maps don't really tell you much :)01:53
lardmando payt phones ever expire?01:54
lardmanif you don;t put any credit on them, and only use them to receive calls, do they continue working forever?01:54
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lardmanrighty ho, bed time, night all02:00
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Macerblah02:05
Macerinstalling flash02:05
Macerit has been a nuisance to not have it02:06
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zerojayGeneralAntilles: It sounds like I missed some major stuff during the ITT -> TMO transition.03:02
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GeneralAntillesNew Hubble images are out: http://www.hubblesite.org/03:12
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GeneralAntillesMore specifically: http://www.hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2009/25/image/03:13
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MaceN8x0hehe03:24
MaceN8x0true blood is great03:25
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Crying-wolfwow.. that's a lot of people o.o03:38
zerojayHi. :)03:39
Crying-wolfhi03:39
Crying-wolfdoes anyone know something more about the frets on fire port ? :P i couldn't find anything less than someone has ported it on google and maemo.org :S03:40
Crying-wolfi wanna make a mini guitar by chopping up a usb keyboard, and plug it in by the usb host package ^^03:40
Crying-wolffound it :P nvmd :P03:43
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vladovghi03:43
Crying-wolfhi03:44
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SpeedEvilCrying-wolf: wii-guitar?03:58
Crying-wolfno03:58
Crying-wolfmaking one from wood, and using a usb keyboard controller :)03:59
SpeedEvilUmm - why03:59
SpeedEvila keyboard controler is insane.03:59
SpeedEvilWhat are you hoping to do with this?04:00
Crying-wolfkilling some time... :p04:00
SpeedEvilIn that keyboard controllers have many limits that will probably bite you04:00
zerojayIt's a cool idea... it's just kind of too bad that Frets on Fire isn't very good. :/04:00
merkuralex_what phones do yall have and do you use data from your phone via your n810/n800?04:00
Crying-wolfi think its a good idea... the problem is ... how will it run on maemo ? :P04:00
zerojayNo separation of tracks... what's the point if you can't hear your missing notes? Heh.04:01
Crying-wolfii don't hava a phone yet... i ordered the n900 :P04:01
SpeedEvilI have a openmoko neo1973, and no n800/81004:01
zerojaymerkuralex_: N95 and yes, I do use it to tether data for my N800 almost exclusively.04:01
zerojayEr.04:01
zerojayN810.04:01
merkuralex_Crying-Wolf: ahh... lucky lol i wish i had the money to use on that.04:02
merkuralex_zerojay: how is the speed and what service do you have?04:02
Crying-wolflol:P04:02
Crying-wolfi don't have it yet04:02
Crying-wolfits not available over here yet04:02
merkuralex_yeah i know i was asking zerojay :D04:03
Crying-wolflol ok :p04:03
zerojaymerkuralex_: I'm only on EDGE... I guess because I'm on Rogers and my N95 is probably European so... speed's probably not the best thing for me to talk about. :)04:03
merkuralex_SpeedEvil:is that the open source phone or whatever?04:03
merkuralex_zerojay: ahh okay :D04:04
SpeedEvilmerkuralex_: yes04:04
merkuralex_SpeedEvil: how is it?04:04
MaceN8x0holy shit true blood is a riot04:04
MaceN8x0rogers probably uses tmobs oddball freq heh04:05
MaceN8x0my n95 worked with att 3G04:05
MaceN8x0then again. it was n95-304:05
zerojayI don't think any Canadian provider does TMobile's freqs.04:05
MaceN8x0heh04:06
MaceN8x0ah well04:06
zerojayI'm with the N95-1. Surprised how bad the battery life is. Glad I only got it for $80.04:06
MaceN8x0no att or tmob in canada?04:06
zerojayNo.04:06
merkuralex_zerojay: lol how did you get it that cheap?04:06
MaceN8x0i guess a country with 30million...04:06
MaceN8x0no market04:06
SpeedEvilmerkuralex_: Done right, in christmas 2007 - the hardware I have with the OS that was sort-of-working in march 2007 could have been a basic phone, which worked, but was not pretty, and ran any linux app you wanted.04:07
zerojayI work for a videogame company and we used to work in cell phone games. When we fully switched over to consoles, we sold off our inventory internally.04:07
zerojayWe had something like 500 phones.04:07
zerojayAll sorts of protos.04:07
SpeedEvilmerkuralex_: It was not done right - openmoko - the company - made many poor decisions.04:07
zerojayCingular would send our NYC office new phones weekly... we'd have them for two weeks... but I was making the ports here in Canada, so I would do so many of them completely blindly.04:07
merkuralex_SpeedEvil: ahh that sucks i was actually interested in it.04:07
SpeedEvilmerkuralex_: the software is actually more-or-less usable at this point04:08
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merkuralex_I wish the n900 was 100$ish cheaper04:09
merkuralex_then again its way cheaper then a crappy iphone unlocked04:09
SpeedEvilmerkuralex_: The company - openmoko - had many things not in its favour - they were up against a very hostile to open-source buisness culture where they were primarily - hong kong - and had poor communications to the community04:09
SpeedEvilmerkuralex_: Also - many decisions - focusing on new hardware while not getting fundamental kernel level services working...04:10
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merkuralex_SpeedEvil: so your saying its bad? lol04:10
SpeedEvilSo no average-level-hackers could actually use it as a reliable phone...04:10
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SpeedEvilmerkuralex_: I'm saying that now it is in the state it would have been - perhaps in feb 2008 - given some consistency in approach by the company doing it. All IMO of course.04:11
merkuralex_SpeedEvil: oh okay.04:12
merkuralex_Does anyone here have a nokia 5800?04:12
zerojaymerkuralex_: Why?04:12
merkuralex_zerojay: Just wondering how it is... im seeking a new phone that is not too expensive ye has good features04:13
merkuralex_of course in the end i will probably just go buy a n900...04:13
merkuralex_can't resist the urge lol04:13
merkuralex_considering that im on the maemo irc i should probably stop talking about phones eh?04:14
zerojaylol04:15
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GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, it sucks.04:30
GeneralAntillesPretty decent for a Symbian phone, I guess04:31
GeneralAntillesBut compared to a Maemo device it sucks.04:31
zerojayWe can say that line for every device on the market. lol04:31
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merkuralex_Haha.04:33
merkuralex_Yeah im thinking i might have to get an n900 lol04:33
Crying-wolfgod its taking so long >.<04:33
merkuralex_Crying-wolf: what is?04:33
Crying-wolfthe n900 :P i want it now! :P04:34
merkuralex_hahaha04:34
merkuralex_It looks absolutely amazing04:34
merkuralex_But im going to have to wait till it supports AT&T as im in a contract with those jurks!04:34
Crying-wolflol04:34
merkuralex_They still have not fixed my data :(04:35
Crying-wolf:S04:35
merkuralex_I have an unlimited data plan for my family but my phone gets charged whenever i use data04:35
merkuralex_its bullcrap04:35
Crying-wolfi send the contract for my contract to day... now i have to wait till the machine comes out :p04:35
GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, you might consider getting the 5800 if you can find it for under $25004:35
GeneralAntillesThen eBay once you get an N900 or N92004:35
FirebirdN900 is phat.04:35
merkuralex_GeneralAttiles, I was thinking the same thing.04:36
GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, the 5800 experience isn't great, though.04:36
merkuralex_Firebird, Yeah but who cares for what you get with the phat sexyness.04:36
chxN920?04:36
chxwtf?04:36
FirebirdGeneralAntilles, they're skipping *10 ?04:36
GeneralAntillesEspecially since S60 5th has gotten a lot better and, of course, the 5800 doesn't get get of that love.04:36
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GeneralAntillesFirebird, according to Eldar the N920 (RX-56) is slotted for early next year.04:37
Firebirdboo, why are we hyping this then :o04:37
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merkuralex_GeneralAntilles, I have never had a symbian phone... but from what i have heard its great.04:37
aspectwow. nokian900.org is being sold on ebay for $AUD2888204:38
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aspectwith free shipping!04:39
merkuralex_Lol.04:39
Crying-wolfbtw, will the n900 sync with a linux desktop ?04:39
GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, yeah, compared to every other smartphone and featurephone out there.04:39
merkuralex_I find it so annoying that all phones that are sold from at&t besides the iphone are so locked down.04:40
chxso04:40
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chxi should wait not just because the n900 is hideously expensive but also because it's obsolete in six months04:41
chxyay04:41
zerojayI wouldn't say the new one would obsolete the N900.04:42
merkuralex_I am not so sure you could say it would be bosolete04:42
GeneralAntillesObsolete?04:42
merkuralex_obsolete*04:42
GeneralAntillesN920 is going to be a minor revision.04:42
zerojayN800 -> N810 style, most likely.04:43
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merkuralex_yeah but its +20 so its gotta be better!04:43
merkuralex_lol04:43
GeneralAntillesDifferent feature focus, not better features.04:43
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SpeedEvilIn some ways the bigger point isn't the n90004:44
SpeedEvilit's the OS04:44
SpeedEvilWhy do you update a phone?04:44
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SpeedEvilIs it to get a camera with 15% more megapixels?04:44
chxwell, the N800->N810 upgrade was quite big04:44
chxi mean, the difference between an unusable and a usable device for me.04:44
SpeedEvilOr is it to run apps that won't run on your existing device because of vendor limits04:44
merkuralex_I never held a n800 but i know i love the keyboard that is on the n81004:45
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chxwell, the primary usage for me is IM and SSH04:45
merkuralex_im actually thinking when my data on my phone is fixed im just going to pull the good ol' n810 out and dust it off04:45
chxthat ... without a physical keyboard... uh.04:45
zerojaychx: I'd probably go with the N900 then. Who knows... N920 might omit the keyboard.04:46
chxand then what it's good for04:46
zerojayPeople who don't want a keyboard.04:46
chxa keyboardless N900 cant stand against the jesusphone04:46
zerojayjesusphone doesn't have a keyboard either.04:46
chxthats what i say04:47
merkuralex_you mean the omgmynameisgaypieceofsh*tphone from apple?04:47
chxyes04:47
merkuralex_:D04:47
chxmind you: i hate that pos but then so many ppl dont04:47
chxso if Nokia tries to release something w/o a keyboard it's a dud04:47
SpeedEvilSome disagree.04:47
merkuralex_i am not so sure04:47
merkuralex_if its skinnier04:47
merkuralex_some people may even prefer no keyboard04:47
SpeedEvilA keyboard makes the device lots thicker.04:47
merkuralex_regardless04:47
SpeedEvilOr more bulky04:47
SpeedEvilOr more fragile04:48
merkuralex_yeah the slider could be crap.....04:48
merkuralex_but i doubt it04:48
merkuralex_i personally would get an n900 if i had the money for something like that04:48
merkuralex_but i need to get my car running04:48
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merkuralex_so i would rather hold off on that...04:48
SpeedEvilI'm not saying it's crap on the n90004:48
merkuralex_SpeedEvil: i know04:49
merkuralex_i was not suggesting that04:49
SpeedEvilI'm saying it pretty much unavoidably adds >>5mm to the thickness04:49
zerojaychx: You're making the same mistake I used to. Your particular desires don't always match up with those of the market.04:49
Crying-wolfthe n900 is on the nokia site available in our country :O04:49
zerojaychx: Talk to all the people that want portrait mode without a keyboard, for example.04:49
Crying-wolfdelivery a few days04:49
Crying-wolfdoes that mean... ? :P04:49
SpeedEvilCrying-wolf: Does it actually say 'a few days' - 30 might be a few04:49
chxzerojay: it's exactly the market i am talking of. Most people who want a keyboardless touchscreen smartphone buy the iPhone.04:49
Crying-wolf3-1 days :S04:50
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Crying-wolf1-3 :P04:50
chxzerojay: so many that seemingly nothing stands against that avalanche04:50
merkuralex_....buy it? lol04:50
SpeedEvilCrying-wolf: websites have been known to be wrongbefore04:50
Crying-wolfi already ordered04:50
Crying-wolfwell its the official nokia site...04:50
SpeedEvilCrying-wolf: If not - congratulations.04:50
Crying-wolfbut is sais reservation lol04:50
Crying-wolf:P04:50
SpeedEvilOfficial websites even04:50
zerojaychx: So.... how does a new Maemo 5 device suffer in that market without a keyboard then?04:50
chxzerojay: no demand for such a device, read again what i sid04:51
chx*said04:51
GeneralAntilleschx, the N810 was a downgrade for me.04:51
zerojaychx: And that's where you're wrong. Take a look at the uproar in TMO for example.04:51
merkuralex_Honestly if Mer ends up supporting all the good maemo 5 things im probably going to try lugging around my n810 and my phone and see if it bothers me at all.04:51
chxzerojay: ?04:51
GeneralAntilleschx, works just fine, actually.04:51
zerojay(An uproar that I don't feel is all that justified, honestly.)04:51
GeneralAntillesI get about 40wpm sustained on the fingerkeyboard.04:52
chxzerojay: what uproar?04:52
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zerojaychx: Look at all the "portrait mode" threads.04:52
zerojayWell... probably consolidated now into one big one.04:52
merkuralex_I have no preference so long as its not the dial pad typing method.04:52
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GeneralAntillesT904:53
zerojaychx: Personally speaking though... I want a hardware keyboard.04:53
merkuralex_It just needs to be a full keyboard and i don't care if its physical or not04:53
GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, the finger keyboard is the one good thing about the 5800.04:53
merkuralex_oh really?04:53
GeneralAntillesYeah, really responsive touchscreen.04:53
GeneralAntillesVibra motor haptics.04:53
merkuralex_ahh i loved haptics although i forget what phone i tried that had it04:53
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zerojayNew Linux kernel apparently handles X MUCH more responsively.. would be nice on the N900.04:54
zerojayhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=324612#post32461204:54
merkuralex_Well I will look around and see what prices are around for the 5800.04:54
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mkanatHey there. Who maintains the maemo Bugzilla?04:55
zerojayPaging andre__04:55
zerojay...who is suddenly not here. Hmm.04:56
GeneralAntilleszerojay, it's +7 there. :P04:56
GeneralAntillesmkanat, what's the issue?04:56
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zerojayGeneralAntilles: What is?04:57
GeneralAntillesUTC04:57
mkanatGeneralAntilles: I'd like to give the maintainer early access to a security fix before the advisory is released.04:57
* mkanat is the upstream maintainer of Bugzilla, basically.04:57
merkuralex_GeneralAntilles, Does the 5800 have good free apps/themes/games and what not?04:57
zerojayGeneralAntilles: I have no idea what that has to do with anything? lol04:57
GeneralAntillesmkanat, http://maemo.org/profile/view/andre/ talk to him.04:57
merkuralex_zerojay, probably means its really late and that person is asleep :D04:57
mkanatGeneralAntilles: Thanks! :-)04:57
zerojaymkanat: Awesome. Thanks for your hard work. I use Bugzilla both at home and at the office. Great stuff. :)04:58
mkanatOh. :-)04:58
GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, I haven't been at all impressed.04:58
GeneralAntillesOvi is full of shit.04:58
zerojaymerkuralex_: Oh, okay.. but he's almost always been online anyways. ;)04:58
merkuralex_o.o04:58
merkuralex_Wtf is Ovi anyway?04:58
mkanatIs that the same as the GNOME Andre Klapper?04:58
zerojayYes.04:58
mkanatIndeed it is.04:58
GeneralAntillesmkanat, yes, he's also maemo.org bugmaster.04:58
mkanatPerfect.04:58
GeneralAntillesHopefully we'll be upgrading soon. . . .04:59
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zerojayAt work, we were on 2.12 for something like 3 years.04:59
GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, but, again, I'm biased by Maemo.04:59
zerojayEach time I wanted to push an upgrade, we'd end up hitting crunch time on another game. :/04:59
GeneralAntillesSymbian is great compared to the rest of the phone market04:59
GeneralAntillesbut compared to Maemo. . . .04:59
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merkuralex_Yeah.... i keep coming to that conclusion... that n900 is going to literally be the best and i hate that im not going to have the money for it :D05:00
GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, Ovi Store is the same as the appstore.05:00
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GeneralAntillesExcept it's filled with shit.05:00
merkuralex_oh... lol05:00
GeneralAntillesmerkuralex_, give it a few months.05:00
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zerojayYou know, I never really understood the whole.. Ovi... MOSH thing.05:01
merkuralex_GeneralAntilles, i will do my best :D05:01
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DantonicDo I have to edit a file to make debian installed apps appear under maemo menus?05:14
GeneralAntillesThey need to have .desktop files.05:16
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DantonicGeneralAntilles, i have to create them?  can u elaborate a little?05:17
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merkuralex_Dantonic, I believe there was some info on the forums about .desktop files i believe its just a ini format05:22
merkuralex_if i had my old files i could look for you...05:22
merkuralex_one second ill see if i have them still05:22
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Dantonicmerkuralex_, thanks05:24
merkuralex_this was the only desktop file i could find that i had left on my computer05:25
merkuralex_http://pastebin.com/m4ff84cd105:25
merkuralex_not sure if it will help with debian stuff05:25
Dantonicidk05:28
merkuralex_open it in a text editor so you have an idea of what a desktop file looks like05:28
merkuralex_wow nevermind05:28
merkuralex_its in pastebin silly me05:29
merkuralex_so distracted lol05:29
merkuralex_im sure you can figure it out...05:29
Dantonick ty05:31
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merkuralex_... i just realized how much i would love to have the same look as the 770 with all the new hardware...05:38
merkuralex_Has anyone used Fennec on the n8xx? If so how is the speed?05:39
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GeneralAntilleshttp://wiki.maemo.org/Desktop_file_format05:41
* merkuralex_ is about ready to get the n810 out again......05:42
Thanatermesismaemo 5 not for n800 ?05:48
merkuralex_nope05:48
merkuralex_As stated on maemo talk it will be only for the n900/n92005:49
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GeneralAntilles~mer05:49
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer05:49
merkuralex_yeah i was about to mention that lol05:49
merkuralex_Speaking of which does it support maemo 5 things already or is that just planned?05:50
Thanatermesismerkuralex_, nothing planned for the future too ?05:50
merkuralex_Thanatermesis, what do you mean?05:51
Thanatermesismerkuralex_, so, the last firmware for n800 is chinook ? can't be possible to install maemo5 in the future on it ?05:51
merkuralex_Well it could be i don't know about that05:52
GeneralAntillesDiablo is the latest.05:52
merkuralex_But i would look forward to mer05:52
GeneralAntillesThanatermesis, unless somebody else steps up to make a backport, Mer is the closest thing05:52
GeneralAntillesand better in a lot of ways.05:52
Sho_Mer has one fatal flaw, sadly05:52
Sho_No LCARS themes05:52
Sho_:-)05:52
merkuralex_Sho_, what is that?05:52
merkuralex_hahahaha05:52
GeneralAntillesSho_, I'm sure I could convince Ian to port them once they finalize the UI.05:53
merkuralex_bleh i can't resist any longer i was going to sell my n810 on ebay but i think im going to get it back out and put mer on it.05:53
Sho_GeneralAntilles: Unfortunately the top bar UI layout doesn't lend itself very well to LCARS :-/05:53
Thanatermesismer or diablo is the lastest ? btw which is the link about the update process again ?05:53
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GeneralAntillesThanatermesis, Mer is a separate distribution based on Maemo 5 and Ubuntu Jaunty.05:53
GeneralAntillesDiablo is the latest release for N8x0 (Maemo 4.1)05:53
Sho_I know it's silly, but the LCARS theme is one of the reasons I bought first the N800 and then the N810 ;)05:53
Sho_Heck, the hostname of my N810 is "padd".05:54
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merkuralex_lol seriously?05:54
Sho_Yeah, huge Trekkie here :-)05:54
merkuralex_i have never watched star trek so i guess i cannot understand that :D05:54
Sho_And Maemo's LCARS theme is the best working LCARS UI I've ever seen.05:54
merkuralex_im going to go ahead and pull out the n810 and put mer on it :)05:56
SpeedEvilThe big question is - can the n900 detect lifesigns?05:56
merkuralex_SpeedEvil, LOL05:56
Jucatoheh reminds me of the tricorder app on the n81005:57
Jucatonoisy little bugger05:57
SpeedEvilI've said for ages - I absolutely cannot understand why paramount have not licensed a phone.05:57
SpeedEvilA working combadge.05:57
SpeedEvilVoice dialing.05:57
SpeedEviltap to activate, ...05:57
ThanatermesisGeneralAntilles, it is there any distribution based on debian instead of ubuntu ? (with all the repo available of debian packages =))05:58
merkuralex_lol... i just pulled my n810 box out of the closet all closed up with everything in it... reminds me of when i got it :D05:58
merkuralex_oh wow.... didn't realize that the  slider was so over used lol06:00
GeneralAntillesDeblet06:00
GeneralAntillesBut it's way out of date these days.06:01
merkuralex_wait... there is an ubuntu port?!?!?!06:01
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merkuralex_... i forgot how amazingly large the n810 screen is lol06:02
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GeneralAntillesMer is based on Ubuntu Jaunty06:05
ThanatermesisGeneralAntilles, i dont found much details about Mer, how much pacakges available has ? it has E17 packages ? which interface uses ? (same as maemo?)06:05
GeneralAntillesIt uses the Jaunty repositories.06:05
GeneralAntillesIt uses Hildon by default.06:06
GeneralAntilles~mer06:06
infobotit has been said that mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer06:06
Thanatermesissounds good06:06
merkuralex_...what the heck my n810's screen is partially sticky...06:07
merkuralex_unless thats mah finger06:07
merkuralex_lol06:07
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Thanatermesishow to know which firmware im running ?06:10
GAN800Control Panel -> About06:10
Thanatermesis5.2008.43-706:11
Thanatermesisthat's the lastest one ?06:11
GAN800Yes06:11
chxas far as we mere mortals know06:11
merkuralex_lol!06:11
chxwhat the nokian gods have, noone knows.06:11
merkuralex_the nokian gods probably have n1000001's with maemo 50038506:12
SpeedEvilThe current nokia god is version 9.338 of the software.06:12
GAN800They have more, which we could ship if we managed to get the manpower together to ship a community update.06:12
SpeedEvilThe humans lost a couple of years ago.06:12
Thanatermesisnot looks like to have much activity the last firmware... is there extra repositories that i can use ? (i would like to have a good set of packages available, like a good set of the default debian ones)06:13
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ThanatermesisGeneralAntilles, you have say better in a lot of ways, can you tell me a few ones ?06:15
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merkuralex_is there anyway i can use my n810 to send/recieve sms via my phone over bluetooth?06:22
luke-jrmerkuralex_: probably depends on your phone more than the N81006:22
merkuralex_Well if the phone did support it how would i go about doing it from the n810 then?06:22
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Thanatermesishow to be root ? i dont remember06:25
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merkuralex_i believe there is something you can install that lets you sudo Thanatermesis06:25
merkuralex_or you can do the red pill mode06:25
merkuralex_both of which i forget06:25
Thanatermesis:/06:26
merkuralex_search application manager for rootsh06:26
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merkuralex_then after you install that06:26
merkuralex_you can use "root" in xterm06:26
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rm_youhrmrm06:29
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rm_youjohnx: poke06:33
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Thanatermesiswhy Mer could be a better option ?07:07
RST38hbetter option for what?07:07
Thanatermesisfor n800, than the default os07:07
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RST38hMer is currently not an option, it is not fully operational07:07
RST38hIt is for hackers mainly07:08
Thanatermesisso, a lot of packages available under a plain terminal ? =)07:08
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Thanatermesismmh, i can install a "plain" debian system on my n800 ?07:12
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: the n900 has a proximity sensor which IME actually works07:12
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timeless_mbpand yes technically internally there are a couple of flashes past the last diablo version07:12
timeless_mbpbut they're just minor bug fixes to a couple of apps (i've never looked for a changelog)07:13
* timeless_mbp frowns07:14
timeless_mbpfwiw, maemo5 is running 2.6.28<something>07:14
timeless_mbpcertainly not 2.6.3007:14
timeless_mbpanyway, if people want a newer kernel, they're going to need to use Mer07:15
timeless_mbpit's pretty much impossible w/ our model for us to ship the latest kernel07:15
timeless_mbpwe take a kernel add the hardware support we need and then are effectively frozen (i.e. can't upgrade to a later kernel branch) for the development cycle of our product07:16
timeless_mbpwhich historically has been 12-24 months long07:17
timeless_mbpand fwiw, customers really do not want a hardware vendor to 1 day before release upgrade their kernel07:17
timeless_mbpthat would pretty much invalidate all testing the company did for the entire product07:18
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vernonjvsHi, I have a nokia 770 running os2007. Does anyone know how to move applications into different groups. I tried editiing /home/user/.osso/applications.menu with unexpected results.07:28
merkuralex_OMG!!!! you have a 770?... i miss mine and no sorry i don't know how... unless you do it from the control panel???07:29
timeless_mbpvernonjvs: typically you used the control panel07:31
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timeless_mbpso you're running os2007 HE07:31
vernonjvsI did it with OS2006 and I thought I edited an xml file. but now I can't remember which one07:31
vernonjvsyes OS2007 HE07:31
timeless_mbpi can't remember what the official name for that control panel was07:32
vernonjvsI can't find a menu in trhe control panel. Perhaps I am just stupid07:32
timeless_mbpgive me the list? :)07:32
* timeless_mbp is too lazy to get out a string table07:32
vernonjvsgeneral/about this product, device lock, hardware keyboard, screen calibration, dat and time, display, memory07:34
vernonjvsconnectivity/accounts, certificate manager, phone, bluetooth, connectivity, presence07:34
merkuralex_in os2008 its panels07:34
merkuralex_thats all i know07:34
timeless_mbpmerkuralex_: shh, we'll get it. at least his is running English :)07:35
vernonjvspersonalization/language and regions, sounds, themes, navigation, text input settings07:35
vernonjvsthat's it07:36
timeless_mbpnavigation07:36
vernonjvsI see it know. I feel like an idiot. Thanks for your help.07:37
vernonjvsI mean now07:37
timeless_mbpthanks for being willing to list them07:37
merkuralex_anyone here ever tried sms over bluetooth with your phone from the n810?07:38
timeless_mbpfwiw, my translation did not call it that07:38
timeless_mbpmerkuralex_: um, what is 'sms over bluetooth'?07:38
merkuralex_like texting...07:38
merkuralex_lol07:38
timeless_mbplike sending a file from "Notes" via "Bluetooth"?07:39
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merkuralex_....no07:39
vernonjvsThanks for your help timeless. Have a great moring. Bye07:39
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timeless_mbpmerkuralex_: was it a supported feature?07:39
merkuralex_im just asking if anyone has attempted it07:39
merkuralex_i believe my phone supports it07:39
merkuralex_but im not sure if there is an app out there for the n810 that will do it07:40
timeless_mbpyou're looking at it wrong07:40
timeless_mbpfirst question is "does BlueZ support it"07:40
timeless_mbpif the answer is "no", then well ...07:40
Sho_http://geekandpoke.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d3df553ef0120a55e2631970b-pi07:40
merkuralex_Sho_, LOL07:41
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Sho_link from #android ;)07:41
merkuralex_ahh i always wondered if android was any good07:42
Sho_i like it.07:42
merkuralex_but i refuse to get a phone with it as they are expensive unlocked and AT&T doesn't have one...07:42
timeless_mbpmerkuralex_: it looks like wammu/gammu might do what you want07:42
merkuralex_okay ill look into it thanks timeless07:42
Sho_merkuralex_: AT&T is about to get some, I heard07:42
merkuralex_Sho_, oh really? link? :D07:42
Sho_merkuralex_: none on hand, sorry. but I read something about HTC making a device for them.07:43
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merkuralex_bleh... htc07:43
merkuralex_lol07:43
merkuralex_okay i shall google it07:43
merkuralex_HTC Lancaster?07:44
Sho_yeah, that might have been it07:45
Sho_No AT&T here, so forgive me for not paying too much attention07:45
merkuralex_no problem07:45
merkuralex_t-mobile claimed to have AMAZING coverage where i am... i got them for a while i literally had dropped calls all the time and my signal never went above 1 bar i tried a few phones... it was rather annoying07:46
merkuralex_thats why i got AT&T07:46
merkuralex_i like the service but why must they lock every phone down except the iphone07:47
Sho_T-Mobile is the largest carrier here (Germany, their country of origin)07:47
merkuralex_i refuse to pay an extra 30$ every month for an iphone07:47
merkuralex_ahh im in ohio07:47
merkuralex_were you born in germany?07:47
Sho_yup07:47
merkuralex_sweet!07:47
merkuralex_i plan to start learning german sometime this/next year07:48
Sho_I used to have an American acqaintance who had German in school07:48
Sho_I helped him with homework now and then :)07:48
merkuralex_cool! brb a second07:48
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wazdmoaning all :)07:49
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RST38hmourning indeed07:50
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timeless_mbpoh darn07:54
timeless_mbpso much for using the audio buttons to do zooming07:54
timeless_mbpwe've dropped that feature by fiat07:54
mfinkletimeless_mbp: maemo 5?07:56
mfinkleI just got a bug about that today07:56
timeless_mbpyes07:56
timeless_mbpto do which?07:56
mfinklevolume controls for zooming07:56
mfinkleworks on n81007:56
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mfinklenot on n90007:57
wazdtimeless_mbp: can you please clarify is there some FM receiver in n900 or not?)07:57
timeless_mbpwazd: my understanding is that it's an unsupported hardware component07:57
timeless_mbpmfinkle: well, expected results for the n900 is "don't do that"07:57
timeless_mbpyou break controlling background audio07:57
mfinkleI see07:57
timeless_mbpwhich is considered more important07:57
timeless_mbpremember the n900 is a phone07:57
timeless_mbppotentially a speaker phone07:57
timeless_mbpif i have my n900 using composite out plugged into a tv07:58
timeless_mbpand i'm in a call07:58
timeless_mbpbut i'm looking at a web page07:58
wazdtimeless_mbp: it's connected but without proper software or it's even disconnected? :(07:58
timeless_mbpwhich do i want the tv to do?07:58
mfinkletimeless_mbp: makes total sense07:58
timeless_mbpwazd: afaiu the hardware path exists07:58
timeless_mbpmfinkle: i'm not defending it07:58
timeless_mbpand our platform will of course not be consistent07:59
mfinklewe need an alternate zoom UI anyway07:59
wazdtimeless_mbp: whew :)07:59
timeless_mbpmfinkle: have you seen the sony ericson w950i?07:59
timeless_mbpif not, i'd recommend you grab one07:59
mfinkletimeless_mbp: nope07:59
timeless_mbpit has a much better ui for zooming07:59
mfinkleI just grabbed an n90007:59
mfinkleI'll look for screen shots07:59
* RST38h would expect the +/- keys affect the current application07:59
aSIMULAtormorning08:00
RST38hi.e. when browser is on top, +/- do zoom, even if there is a phone call in progress08:00
timeless_mbpbasically they give you an onscreen slider08:00
timeless_mbpbut only when you ask to zoom08:00
RST38hwhoever wants to change the volume (rare occurance anyway) will switch to the phone app08:00
timeless_mbpand the page zooms live as you drag the thumb08:01
timeless_mbpRST38h: please feel free to kill Martin (global UI owner)08:01
timeless_mbpor convince, that works too08:01
* timeless_mbp doesn't care which RST38h does08:01
timeless_mbpeither would be rather convenient08:01
timeless_mbpmfinkle: in fennec, this would effectively be:08:01
timeless_mbp1. drag screen left to expose the back button08:02
RST38hAssigning global functions to buttons is a bad, messy idea. Any non-believer only needs to check Symbian phones.08:02
timeless_mbp2. click the zoom button which would be below the forward button08:02
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RST38h*Especially* UIQ phones, although S60 is also guilty of this08:02
mfinkletimeless_mbp: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=47803808:02
timeless_mbp3. an overlay appears either to the left of the right bar or at the bottom of the screen flush to an edge with a zoomer08:02
timeless_mbp"option 2" from https://bug478038.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=39040408:03
timeless_mbpplease08:03
mfinkleah, I have a patch in there for option 108:03
timeless_mbpbut not in the center of the screen08:03
timeless_mbpthe w950i uses something like 208:03
timeless_mbpit's awesome08:03
timeless_mbpi really wanted that08:03
timeless_mbpstep based zooming for a touch device is incredibly lame08:04
mfinklegood point08:04
wazd"option 3" http://tabletui.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/fremantle-browser-zoom/ :)08:04
timeless_mbpwazd: for reference we're internally still microb08:04
timeless_mbphowever for marketing purposes "i.e. to screw things up" we're "Maemo Browser"08:04
aSIMULAtorheh08:05
timeless_mbpthat won't change until we replace microb with some other core (e.g. fennec)08:05
timeless_mbpmfinkle: anyway08:05
timeless_mbpdoes my approach make sense?08:05
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timeless_mbpand really, it should be at an edge08:05
timeless_mbpbecause otherwise your hand covers most of the screen08:05
RST38hwazd: BTW, seeing that you already looked at Fremantle theme design, can buttons and other small UI elements be themed as well?08:05
timeless_mbpit's less of a problem on a large touchscreen using a stylus08:06
timeless_mbpbut we're a small touchscreen using a finger08:06
mfinkletimeless_mbp: yes, makes sense08:06
timeless_mbpok08:06
timeless_mbpthanks for asking/listening08:06
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mfinklewe'll have to see how "live" zooming works in fennec though08:06
timeless_mbpit works fairly well in microb08:06
timeless_mbpand since the technology is pretty much the same08:07
timeless_mbpit shouldn't work much worse in fennec08:07
mfinklefingers crossed :)08:07
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wazdRST38h: I think everything is skinnable, just like before08:07
timeless_mbpcute08:07
timeless_mbpsony.com gave me a bilingual message08:07
aSIMULAtoryes buttons can be themed08:07
timeless_mbp<big>Finnish</big><br><small>English</small>08:08
aSIMULAtorwheres the sverige08:08
merkuralex_LOL@timeless08:08
timeless_mbpmerkuralex_: it's a hell of a lot better than nokia.com and google.com08:08
merkuralex_lol08:08
RST38hwazd: so, there is a way to beautify those slider handles, sliders themselves, menu items, etc?08:09
timeless_mbpor the n900's language switcher08:09
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timeless_mbpwhich at the end says in the language you're leaving, something incredibly long w/ two buttons in a language you don't speak08:09
timeless_mbp(the 770, n800, and n810 do the same thing)08:09
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wazdRST38h: I guess so :)08:10
wazdRST38h: but template is complicated again :)08:10
RST38hthat's ok, as (hopefully) you only need to o it once08:11
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* RST38h found an interesting thing while googling for fremantle themes08:13
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RST38hhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31088 <=== Pizero is the guy solely responsible for something like 60% S60 themes08:13
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MaceN8x0hm08:17
MaceN8x0still waiting on my touchbook08:17
* timeless_mbp sighs08:18
wazdRST38h: he's responsible to sell HTC Flo theme :P08:18
timeless_mbphttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31088&page=208:18
timeless_mbpis there a way to kill comments from a thread on talk?08:18
timeless_mbpbecause #12 is totally off topic08:18
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MaceN8x0lol08:19
aSIMULAtorthats an interesting thread08:19
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RST38hwazd: oh, he has moved into WinMo as well now?08:19
vladovghi08:20
wazdRST38h: no, h's just selling HTC flo rip-off for symbian :)08:21
RST38hwazd: Urgh.08:21
RST38hWhy would anyone....08:21
wazdRST38h: http://www.pizero.net/premium/?p=34708:21
MaceN8x0haha08:22
MaceN8x0i'd try winmob on my n810 if i could08:22
MaceN8x0would be interesting08:22
RST38hLots if people will use ANY black theme the can get hold of =)08:22
timeless_mbpRST38h: is that why all of our themes are black?08:23
vladovgnooo08:23
* RST38h can't replace the E70 theme though: performance falls through the floor =(08:23
MaceN8x0black is extreme ;)08:23
vladovgdont du this08:23
RST38htimeless; No idea, ask your UI boss08:23
MaceN8x0eXtreme (the capital X is important because it is the coolest letter08:23
* RST38h also wondered about that08:24
wazdtimeless_mbp: it's for hiding screen borders in promo shots I guess08:24
timeless_mbpheh08:24
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wazdtimeless_mbp: But I'm thinking to port "Titan" to m5 :)08:25
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timeless_mbppicture?08:25
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RST38hwazd <--- stole a crystal ball somewhere08:26
wazdRST38h: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/titan/08:26
wazdRST38h: I have 2 :D08:26
RST38hwazd: yea, but I don't like it for some reason :(08:26
RST38hwazd: the button shape bring bad memories, I guess08:26
RST38hwazd: Let us do a steampunk theme instead ;)08:27
Jucato(Titan sort of reminds me a bit of OS X with the background and the "metallic" look. but not too much :)08:27
MaceN8x0haha08:27
MaceN8x0it is an ugly theme08:27
wazdRST38h: well, I'll change something, maybe make gray more yellowish08:27
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MaceN8x0really only the stock ones are good08:27
RST38hwazd: or greenish08:27
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RST38hkhaki color08:27
MaceN8x0khaki?08:27
MaceN8x0go get a mac RST38h ... that is fail08:27
MaceN8x0haha08:27
wazdMaceN8x0: 14.5k downloads don't agree with you :D08:28
RST38hMacer: 14k people got this theme =)08:28
MaceN8x0hahaha08:28
* Jucato got the theme. but just retained the background pic later08:28
MaceN8x0most people horde themes08:28
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MaceN8x0i want my touchbook08:29
MaceN8x0i hope i make the cut this month08:29
wazdMaceN8x0: yeah, you're getting crazy :D08:29
merkuralex_o.o how much was the touchbook?08:29
RST38h*still* no touchbook?08:29
RST38his it the new pandora?08:29
MaceN8x0400 with the kb08:29
MaceN8x0no08:29
MaceN8x0people are getting them08:29
RST38hmhm08:30
MaceN8x0a lot of ppl so far08:30
merkuralex_400$?08:30
wazdRST38h: it's new n900 :)08:30
MaceN8x0it is on the internets08:30
MaceN8x0hahaha08:30
wazdRST38h: people are getting them, but not me :D08:30
merkuralex_lol08:30
MaceN8x0merkuralex_, yes $08:30
merkuralex_ahh not bad08:30
MaceN8x0yeah08:30
Jucato$300 for no keyboard08:30
MaceN8x0yeah08:30
merkuralex_though im not so sure i would use something that large with a touchscreen lol08:31
MaceN8x0but the kb has the huge battery08:31
* Stskeeps yawns08:31
MaceN8x010 hrs in use from what ive heard08:31
MaceN8x0actually lasts that long, maybe longer08:31
MaceN8x0in use08:31
wazdStskeeps: borening :)08:31
MaceN8x0i just want mine already08:32
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MaceN8x0i winder if you can use a usb mouse with it08:32
Sho_shame it has no compass.08:32
merkuralex_the only reason i would get the touchbook would be to make finger friendly apps and i seriously am done buying new gadgets just so i can program on/for them08:32
MaceN8x0i know it has magnets so it can stick to a fridge08:32
merkuralex_of course i will cave in soon enough lol08:32
Sho_(the n900, that is)08:32
MaceN8x0hahaha08:32
MaceN8x0no compass?!08:32
Jucatoaccelerometer, but no compass08:33
MaceN8x0they are waiting til they can release the N900GS08:33
MaceN8x0:)08:33
merkuralex_LOL08:33
* RST38h was done with this when he moved all development to a remote Alpha workstation only available via dialup08:33
MaceN8x0so maybe 2 months after the market eats up N900s08:33
RST38hFirst fMSX actually rendered its display in ASCII mode over modem08:33
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timeless_mbpoh right, i used titan in Mer while testing theme switching08:35
timeless_mbpthanks wazd for the url08:35
merkuralex_MaceN8x0 what was your main reason for buying the touchbook?08:35
Stskeepshe didn't know n900 was coming? ;p08:39
merkuralex_LOL!!!!!08:39
MaceN8x0battery life and next gen arm08:40
MaceN8x0:)08:40
MaceN8x0haha08:40
merkuralex_does anyone here have a PSP? or do you all consider sony to be shit? lol08:40
merkuralex_lol08:40
MaceN8x0no, i did08:40
RST38hIt's a Sony!08:40
merkuralex_i wish i had the money to buy a touchbook or n900 randomly08:40
MaceN8x0i'll get that too Stskeeps ;)08:40
StskeepsMace has too much money :P08:41
qwerty12_N810MaceN8x0 == pimp ;)08:41
MaceN8x0you can never have too much08:41
MaceN8x0;)08:41
merkuralex_yeah.... he should buy me a n90008:41
merkuralex_:D08:41
MaceN8x0haha08:41
MaceN8x0i dont believe in charity08:41
merkuralex_awww... f*ck you!08:41
merkuralex_hahahaha08:41
MaceN8x0i gave Stskeeps the n800 because he develops08:41
MaceN8x0he is contributing to society08:42
merkuralex_thats not fair! i made nokiaflash! not that it actually works anymore but yeah08:42
MaceN8x0:)08:42
Stskeepsnokiaflash? :P08:42
merkuralex_exactly08:42
merkuralex_lol08:42
MaceN8x0hahaha08:42
merkuralex_my server died and i never backed it up08:42
Stskeepswhat on earth is that? :P08:42
merkuralex_so i lost the system for the web08:42
merkuralex_it died in the early stages of the n81008:42
merkuralex_but people liked it while it lasted rofl08:42
merkuralex_but my crappy job takes up so much time i no longer have the time to program08:43
merkuralex_okay... my job is not that crappy08:43
merkuralex_but it still takes up too much time08:43
merkuralex_lol08:43
Stskeepswhat was it? :P08:43
RST38hSprint's big surprise to be unlimited mobile calling, data, text, and MMS for $70 (if you are in the States of course)08:43
aSIMULAtorouch08:43
aSIMULAtorexpensive08:43
merkuralex_actually... kinda cheap lol08:43
RST38hnot as expensive as previous $99+ offers08:43
merkuralex_stskeeps it was a flash game manager/downloader/launcher08:44
merkuralex_yeah i think at&t with our family plan is more then that08:44
merkuralex_and they screw you over alot08:44
merkuralex_suddenly started charging me for my data08:44
merkuralex_but the rest of my family has unlimited still...08:44
Stskeepsah08:44
aSIMULAtordo you still get charged if someone calls YOUR mobile08:44
RST38hSprint is CDMA though, so whoever wanted to use n900 on it is fucked.08:45
merkuralex_yeah...08:45
merkuralex_bastards!08:45
merkuralex_asimulator was that directed at me?08:45
aSIMULAtorwtf08:45
aSIMULAtoryz08:45
hari_Any idea why the n900 doesn't work with AT&T 3G bands? (Just out of curiosity)08:45
merkuralex_uhhh no it uses our minutes lol08:45
aSIMULAtorsucks :(08:45
merkuralex_but my data currently charges me per mb or whatever08:46
merkuralex_which is bullcrap08:46
merkuralex_cause the site says im on the unlimited plan08:46
Stskeepswazd: i have an artist in my incoming Mer people, should i send him along to you?08:46
merkuralex_anyway mace you said you had a psp did you put custom firmware on it and was it a 2000?08:47
RST38hhari: N900 band selection corresponds to european bands08:47
RST38hhari: In the US, TMobile supports roughly the same bands, but AT&T does not08:47
RST38hhari: So, to support AT&T, Nokia would have to produce a different model08:48
wazdStskeeps: sure, ask him if he's gonna do something or disappear like others :D08:48
hari_ah ok RST38h that's good to know .. does that mean a most (or lot) of Nokia's Symbian smartphones have seperate models for American markets?08:48
merkuralex_MaceN8x0, read my question you bastard!!!08:48
RST38hhari: Lots, yes08:48
merkuralex_:D08:48
Stskeepswazd: want a mailing list where you can control your minions?08:48
Stskeepswe already have one, so i can ask him to subscribe there08:48
hari_RST38h, So there might be hope of a n900 North American market too? Eventually? Couple of months?08:48
aSIMULAtoryeah separate models so they can rape the features and functionality :P08:49
RST38hhari: Good thing is that most of them support all GSM bands, US and Europe. So at least your GSM/EDGE will work everywhere08:49
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hari_Browsing on EDGE after being on 3.5G is like going back to dialup :(08:49
RST38hhari: What do you mean by "hope"? N900 will work on TMobile08:49
hari_I meant with AT&T support, sorry08:49
* RST38h uses EDGE daily. Feels ok, just do not go to full sized websites08:49
wazdStskeeps: well, they are not my minions, we're totally equal :) I think there is some mail list, they can just join it in08:49
* RST38h also spends incredible $10/month on his cell phone bill, in spite of daily iternet use08:50
sneakretRST38h: That's a neat trick.08:50
RST38hwazd: But doesn't having minions feel sickly attractive? =)08:51
hari_These are times I wish I don't live in the US .. greediest telco companies ever08:51
RST38hhari: Unfortunately, yes08:51
wazdRST38h: no :D08:51
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merkuralex_hari, im in the same situation as you :D08:51
merkuralex_oh wait why did i put a happy face? :(((08:52
merkuralex_lol08:52
merkuralex_thats better08:52
hari_merkuralex_, really? I wanted to get a e71, and I originally got a e71x from AT&T .. oh my God that was a punishment. I ended up returning it and buying a unlocked e71 from Amazon.com08:52
sneakretYeah, my mobile phone bill is crazy. (US.)08:53
merkuralex_hari, Yeah... im so piseed off with my samsung eternity08:53
merkuralex_hari, its so locked down its bullcrap08:53
merkuralex_pissed*08:53
hari_haha I just noticed the heading .. "Maemo 5 will not be available for 770/ n8x0 / iPhone"08:54
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sneakretHaha.08:54
*** slonopotamus_ is now known as slonopotamus08:54
sneakretYeah, that's funny. :)08:54
merkuralex_yeah i noticed that too08:54
merkuralex_funny shit08:54
Stskeepsif we had gl drivers on iphone it wouldn't be totally impossible, heh08:55
hari_Unfortunate at the same time too, atleast for the n8x0 users08:55
sneakretSo, is anyone planning on making money with commercial apps on the N900?08:55
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hari_I wanted a device like the n810, the amazing thing is there's absolutely nothing else on the market even close to n810, offering the same line of features and capabilities :(08:55
Stskeepsi plan to become a trillionaire08:55
slonopotamusStskeeps, so you need to rob quadrillionaire and spend some money.08:56
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merkuralex_sneakret, yeah i would think about it if i had the money to blow on another gadget but then again im not the best at making proffesional like programming in c/python/c++08:57
lcukx41Stskeeps, moving to zimbabwe?08:57
Stskeepslcukx41: true, true08:58
* lcukx41 waves btw08:58
RST38hhari: There are Chinese MIDs comparable to n81008:58
sneakretIs Nokia working on making the development tools easier to use?08:58
RST38hhari: Then, there is iphone and various WinMo devices which now also have 800x480 screens08:58
hari_RST38h, namely? I am looking at features like touchscreen, BT tethering, pocketable and 800x48008:58
StskeepsRST38h: none with keyboards yet though08:58
RST38hSo I would not say "nothing"08:58
sneakretLast I looked into maemo development, it was tied to Linux, and was a minor hassle to set up.08:58
RST38hSts: HTC Touch Pro208:58
MaceN8x0screw att08:59
hari_And yeah, physical qwerty would be handy08:59
StskeepsRST38h: chinese MIDs08:59
*** slonopotamus changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo | N900 and Maemo 5 announced @ http://maemo.nokia.com | http://maemo.org | Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council | http://mxr.maemo.org | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | Maemo Summit 2009: Call for Content Now Open! -> http://tinyurl.com/mvbcdy | Maemo Summit 2009: Registration now open - http://tinyurl.com/lumhbk | Maemo 5 will not be available for 770/n8x0/iPhone | Use Mer instead"08:59
StskeepsHTC may qualify08:59
merkuralex_MaceN8x0, you never answered my question... you bastard08:59
RST38hSts: Yea, but HTC is in fact a chinese mid :)08:59
merkuralex_hehehe08:59
Stskeepsslonopotamus: don't you mean Gentoo?08:59
slonopotamuserr08:59
MaceN8x0wouldnt mind the n900 working on cricket heh08:59
sneakretIs cricket GSM?08:59
MaceN8x0mer, sorry, doing stuff08:59
merkuralex_rich bastard...08:59
MaceN8x0sneakret, dont know08:59
merkuralex_hehe jk i understand08:59
slonopotamusStskeeps, meh, no, i don't need hordes of noob users :)08:59
* RST38h would buy HTC if it weren't running WinMo09:00
MaceN8x0merkuralex_, what was the question?09:00
Stskeepsslonopotamus: point taken09:00
johnxrm_you, poke poke09:00
hari_RST38h, seriously, I am not interested in WinMo . I would get one too if I could get a different OS on them09:00
merkuralex_MaceN8x0,did you have custom firmware on your psp and what version of the psp did you have?09:00
* Stskeeps passes johnx caffeine09:00
MaceN8x0i dont have a psp heh09:00
johnxdon't need it. need un-caffeine09:00
MaceN8x0nor have i ever09:00
merkuralex_you said you had one before...09:00
merkuralex_lol09:00
Stskeepsjohnx: ah, insomnia?09:00
MaceN8x0no i didnt09:01
merkuralex_were you being sarcastic or did i misread09:01
MaceN8x0;)09:01
merkuralex_dammit this irc thing is killing me09:01
MaceN8x0you must have misread09:01
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johnxStskeeps, nah, too much caffeine at work dealing with our insane content repository software09:01
MaceN8x0but09:01
merkuralex_there is a million messages flowing whenever im talking or reading lol09:01
slonopotamusStskeeps, i  never claimed that gentoo is user-friendly (at least in common meaning of this word == 'low entry barrier')09:01
MaceN8x0psp requires a batter09:01
johnxnow I need to come down and eventually sleep09:01
MaceN8x0that is modded09:01
MaceN8x0you can buy them online im sure09:01
merkuralex_oh yeah the pandora battery09:01
MaceN8x0the copy protection is in the battery09:02
merkuralex_im thinking about getting a psp09:02
merkuralex_i need something pocketable to play a crap load of games on09:02
MaceN8x0so is that what happened to pandora?09:02
Stskeepsslonopotamus: hehe09:02
MaceN8x0they decided to make psp batteries instead?09:02
sneakretGet an N800. :)09:02
MaceN8x0:)09:02
sneakretIt's cheap now, I'm sure.09:02
bbigrasI have a psp with a custom firmware, I have the old one. It was softmodded with a savegame and the gta game09:02
merkuralex_hahaha MaceN8x0 nice :D09:02
MaceN8x0johnx, lay off the cocaine09:02
merkuralex_bbigras, how do you like it? is it fun or do you find it gets boring fast? what games do you play the most?09:03
merkuralex_lol09:03
sneakretPONG!!09:03
merkuralex_bbigras, also do you play anything via wifi?09:03
merkuralex_PONG!!!!!09:03
merkuralex_ME WANT!!!09:03
merkuralex_lol09:03
* MaceN8x0 looks at the # name and looks at merkuralex_ 09:04
sneakretWifi pong!09:04
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MaceN8x0:)09:04
merkuralex_actually wifi tetris sounds fun to me09:04
merkuralex_lol09:04
merkuralex_# name?09:04
sneakretnetris-style!09:04
merkuralex_MaceN8x0 you confuse me09:04
slonopotamus...09:04
MaceN8x0adhoc only works for playing against someone09:04
sneakretI like the netris rules.09:04
MaceN8x0on a psp09:04
MaceN8x0no adhoc tethering09:04
sneakret(better than tetrinet)09:04
merkuralex_MaceN8x0, yes but there is also mohaa and a few other games that work over wifi09:05
merkuralex_not just adhoc09:05
MaceN8x0you need an ap09:05
merkuralex_i think like 16 players per game or something09:05
MaceN8x0no bt either right?09:05
merkuralex_nope09:05
MaceN8x0no dun bt support for psp?09:06
MaceN8x0damn :)09:06
MaceN8x0sounds like a lame thing to have09:06
merkuralex_i don't think so atleast09:06
MaceN8x0just lug a ps3 and small tv with a car battery and dc to ac converter09:06
bbigrasmerkuralex_: I play a bit with the new final fantasy dissidia, also a bit with disgaea. I never played online with it. I do get bored a bit fast with it, it seems the homebrew community is not active anymore (I'm not sure). When I bought it I should have invest a bit more for a n81009:06
merkuralex_lol09:06
MaceN8x0would be a lot more fun09:06
MaceN8x0and you stay in shape tooo09:07
merkuralex_MaceN8x0 i don't have that kind of money remember! :D09:07
MaceN8x0homebrew09:07
MaceN8x0my wii kicks ass with its external hd09:07
MaceN8x0merkuralex_, sell drugs09:07
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merkuralex_bbigras, okay thanks for answering my questions.... i have one more how long have you had the psp?09:07
merkuralex_MaceN8x0, LOL09:08
merkuralex_MaceN8x0, not something i plan to do lol09:08
sneakretand how did you get maemo working on it?09:08
* sneakret pretends to be on-topic.09:08
merkuralex_sneakret LOL?09:08
sneakret:)09:08
merkuralex_caps l-o-l for the win09:08
merkuralex_.... looks like a tie-fighter09:08
merkuralex_l-0-l09:09
sneakretHey, it does.09:09
merkuralex_peew peew peew09:09
merkuralex_lol09:09
bbigrasmerkuralex_: I don't remember, maybe 2 years, maybe more. there's not many good game for the psp, maybe it will have more now with the pspgo thing09:09
merkuralex_bbigras, how long did it take you to start getting bored with it?09:09
johnxMaceN8x0, if any piece of software was going to drive me to drugs, it'd be this one09:09
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merkuralex_johnx, hey i can even sell you the drugs... seems MaceN8x0 thinks i should sell them so ill start with you :D09:10
merkuralex_l-o-l09:10
johnxgive it another week or so for this software to finish crushing my spirit09:11
merkuralex_hahahaha09:11
johnxright now I just feel like beer09:11
merkuralex_:P09:11
bbigrasmerkuralex_: as soon as I get access to my ps3. I only use my psp when I go to my parent house where there's no internet and everybody go to sleep before midnight and I have to wait before I can sleep. If I had a psp when I was young instead of a gameboy I don't think I would have been bored09:12
merkuralex_bbigras, ahh well theres my answer lol all i do is work/school and play games and i think having the psp would be good as im out of the house alot... if im in the house i use my pc for gaming.09:13
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merkuralex_considering work is essentially programming i no longer have programming as a hobby... its just too much lol09:14
merkuralex_... the psp 2000 and 3000 are the same price09:15
merkuralex_but the 3000 is not hacked yet as far as i know09:15
bbigrasmerkuralex_: http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/11/datel_lite_blue_tool_hacks_into_psp3000.html not sure if it's real09:16
merkuralex_bbigras, http://psp3000hacks.com/psp-3000-hacks/custom-firmware-on-psp-3000s-gen-a-cfw-released/09:17
merkuralex_lol09:17
bbigrasnice09:17
merkuralex_i think im going to buy a psp 3000!09:18
merkuralex_holy crap a new gadget... its been what? 3 weeks09:18
sneakretOh, hey... I can pre-order an N900. I didn't realize that.09:18
merkuralex_im such a junky09:18
merkuralex_and yet a cheap junky...09:18
MaceN8x0johnx, haha09:18
MaceN8x0that bad?09:18
merkuralex_sneakret, a bit slow to the game eh?09:18
merkuralex_lol09:18
johnxit's based on tomcat...and it only gets weirder and scarier from there09:19
sneakretYes. :P09:19
sneakretI signed up to be notified! I was trying to be patient!09:19
sneakretWhat's the estimated ship date?09:19
sneakret(Since everyone but me knows these things.)09:20
aSIMULAtoroct09:20
aSIMULAtoror something09:20
* aSIMULAtor looks at her n900 and giggles09:20
RST38hMaemo in VR glasses! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGwvZWyLiBU09:20
merkuralex_oct 3rd?09:20
RST38h(btw, what product number is the glasses? =))09:20
merkuralex_i think09:20
merkuralex_not sure09:20
Stskeepsn900 and not n00? :P09:20
aSIMULAtordoesn't even say anything on the device :P09:21
Stskeepsneat09:21
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merkuralex_RST38h.... great.... now i have a new want... thanks09:23
merkuralex_hahaha09:23
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merkuralex_the second that comes out09:23
aSIMULAtordoes anyone know if the guy who made drnoksnes goes on irc?09:23
merkuralex_im going to want it no matter what price09:23
merkuralex_lol09:23
* RST38h looks for videos of starships to show to merkuralex09:23
RST38haSIMULATor: javispedro here09:23
aSIMULAtorthanks09:24
wazdremember to take of your dumb glasses on the sun, stupid woman! :D09:24
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RST38hand place them where I can steal them and go back to my time machine09:24
Stskeepsmorning danielwilms09:24
danielwilmshey Stskeeps, good morning :)09:25
wazdRST38h: I wonder how they think I can focus on such close object as lens09:26
wazdRST38h: it's impossible09:26
merkuralex_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq0KpLUkCJ4&feature=channel09:27
wazdthat's why retinal projectors rock09:27
RST38hwazd: well, to her, the object is a few meters ahead09:27
wazdmerkuralex_: that's not creative app on n900, that's a remote control app on n90009:27
RST38hwazd: at least this is how it works with the current generation of glasses. But it looks like the glasses in the vidoe are fake.09:27
merkuralex_wazd, yeah it seemed rather pointless09:27
wazdRST38h: no way! I thought it's real :D09:28
RST38hEhehe09:28
sneakret00:20:23 ~~~ aSIMULAtor looks at her n900 and giggles09:28
merkuralex_hahahah09:28
sneakret:P09:28
RST38hThat is why I hate those concept "photos"09:28
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wazdRST38h: and anyway, making phone/pc/whatever as glasses is stupid, cause I already have one :)09:30
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wazdRST38h: how do I suppose to wear another pair :)09:30
wazdthat's why retimal projectors rock again09:31
wazdretinal*09:31
* RST38h would be scared to try retinal projector09:32
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wazdRST38h: it's not that bright :)09:34
wazdRST38h: it just shows picture right on your retina, not on the screen and then on your retina :)09:34
RST38hStill, got a laser pointer into my eye once (subway, some idiot was flashing it onto oncoming train), do not want to repeat the experience09:34
wazdRST38h: laser pointer is very pright09:35
RST38hguess so, but still scared of the retinal projection =)09:35
* Stskeeps notes to himself he really shouldn't get into the maelstroem of /opt discussion.09:35
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RST38hSts: it's religious09:35
RST38hSts: Leave 'em09:35
StskeepsRST38h: that's my plan right now09:36
RST38hMy guess is that the whole reason for /opt (as opposed to other choices) is to avoid rehashing the whole system setup and retesting it09:36
RST38hnot the worst choice, so let it be09:37
timeless_mbpanyone here familiar w/ msgfmt? what does "1 untranslated message" mean and how do i find i?09:37
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wazdRST38h: in fact, they can be very low powered, cause they don't need light cannon to reflect light off the screen09:39
wazdRST38h: they only current problem is resolution09:39
RST38hwazd: there is still overhead on other parts...09:39
StskeepsRST38h: i like /opt because of the simple fact it doesn't break diablo and such :P09:40
wazdRST38h: they just cant show something useful in such small space09:40
RST38hArgh I WILL BE BACK09:40
MaceN8x0hm09:40
MaceN8x0wonder why sftp goes so slow on my n81009:41
JaffaMorning, all09:41
Stskeepsmorning jaffa09:41
Myrttimoin09:41
JaffaRST38h: It's still worth getting involved to work out best practices now that we *have* /opt to work with.09:41
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MaceN8x02:45 for 200MB?09:42
MaceN8x0ouch09:42
MaceN8x0screw this, im just going to head home09:42
Jaffae.g. is it bad if /opt is used on diablo? what about Mer? should optification be entirely automatic or should developers for greenfield apps be encouraged to use it?09:42
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Jaffae.g. when should /opt be used on fremantle? what does qgil's "500KB (incl. dependencies)" mean, if an app depends on Python, Ruby, Qt, ...?09:43
johnxfor use on mer: probably just follow whatever guidelines ubuntu puts forth09:44
MaceN8x0or symlink other dirs09:44
Jaffajohnx: Ubuntu are going to put forth guidelines on how Maemo applications designed for /opt usage should work?09:44
Stskeepsas long as it follows FHS, i'm happy09:44
MaceN8x0use /mnt for the actual device09:45
MaceN8x0and symlink all larger dirs to it09:45
MaceN8x0:)09:45
johnxJaffa, I said Mer, not maemo09:45
Jaffajohnx: Yes, but a large source of finger friendly software for Mer is going to come from Maemo09:45
JaffaStskeeps: So, according to http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#OPTADDONAPPLICATIONSOFTWAREPACKAGES, a package which installs most of itself to /opt/_package_/ is actually OK09:46
MaceN8x0heh, forward porting?09:46
MaceN8x0how odd09:46
MaceN8x0mer and maemo will not like each other if repackaging is required09:47
StskeepsJaffa: right, but that part wasn't actually painted out :)09:47
JaffaStskeeps: Indeed. I've just looked it up :)09:47
slonopotamusMaceN8x0, repackaging was always required for maemo09:47
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JaffaAnd the advantages of repackaging for Maemo still apply (user friendly names, icons in HAM) in Mer09:48
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L0cutusre09:52
MaceN8x0huh?09:52
slonopotamusJaffa, that doesn't explain the need to repackage shared libs09:52
MaceN8x0wtf is up with the edgelike speeds im getting09:52
Jaffaslonopotamus: What need to repackage shared libs?09:52
MaceN8x021KB for an sftp xfer?09:53
johnxMaceN8x0, maybe their nerf encrypted traffic09:53
MaceN8x0possibly09:53
MaceN8x0im going to have to test this later on another device09:53
johnxs/their/they09:54
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slonopotamusJaffa, dpkg -l | grep 'ii  lib' | grep maemo09:55
Stskeepsslonopotamus: that's scratchbox insanity..09:56
Jaffaslonopotamus: Lots of Nokia-provided ones, patches expected. Third party ones packaged by people. Some direct uploads of existing packages from Debian/Ubuntu.09:57
Jaffaslonopotamus: I can take a source package from Debian for a shared lib and upload it to the autobuilder; and I can take a shared lib deb from Debian and install it.09:57
JaffaSometimes the `Depends' will be weird for Maemo. Is that what you mean? But that's getting better too.09:58
timeless_mbpJaffa: so...09:59
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timeless_mbpMer should really offer to reformat the n810's internal flash09:59
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Stskeepsit might eventually09:59
timeless_mbpbecause the only safe way for this stuff to work is if you have two volumes09:59
timeless_mbpone for /home/opt - /home/user and one for /home/user/MyDocs09:59
Stskeepssometimes it's actually easier to support n810 than n800, heh09:59
timeless_mbpthe latter gets unmounted when used w/ usb mass storage10:00
timeless_mbpthe n800 is actually less of a problem10:00
timeless_mbpjust ask the user to install a big internal card that they don't expect to share :)10:00
johnxjust tell people they can't remove the internal card?10:00
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timeless_mbppretty much10:00
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timeless_mbpyou can offer to split it the same way you would the n81010:01
johnxit's kinda icky, but way better than trying to handle the case of some libs magically disappearing at random10:01
Stskeepscute, scroll wheel works on maemo file choosers10:01
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qwerty12_N810Scroll wheel works anywhere a HildonPannableArea is used10:02
Stskeepsyeah10:02
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wazdhttps://twitter.com/wazd <- goddamned10:39
Jaffawazd: there's also a "jaffa" who was in a similar situation when I joined :-(10:41
wazdJaffa: we need to hi-jack our nicknames somehow)10:41
wazdhttps://twitter.com/zhilin <- daaaamn10:42
* Jaffa is always too late to these new parties to get the name he wants10:43
wazddzaw is ok :D10:43
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Corsac    *  Name corsac10:45
Corsac    * Location China10:45
Corsacthat's wrong!10:45
Corsacthough I don't intent to twit anyway10:45
wazdhttps://twitter.com/1 <- that's a lucker :D10:46
Stskeeps /404 ?10:46
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wazdStskeeps: :D10:47
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wazdStskeeps: it's 404 actually :)10:47
johnxwhat about the more obscure HTTP codes?10:48
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wazd503?)10:48
johnxnice :)10:48
wazdI don't want to be /andrewzhilin :(10:48
wazdbut whatever anyway :)10:49
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johnxwhat about zandrew?10:49
Corsaccan fremantle talk to laconi.ca servers?10:50
Stskeepsmauku maybe10:50
wazdjohnx: that's kind of african name :D10:50
johnxinteresting. I didn't know :)10:50
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wazdjohnx: I don't know for sure too, but it sounds like :)10:51
wazdoh, Tim Samoff is in Twitter everywhere too! :D10:52
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wazdhttp://maemo.tv/ lol :)10:53
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johnxholee crap. first time I saw a dev unit on a public site :)10:54
johnxwonder if that's sanctioned10:54
wazdjohnx: well, it's from conversations.nokia.com, so I guess10:55
Stskeepsdev unit where? :P10:56
johnxmaemo.tv, but it's a link to a youtube video "Linked Internet UI Concept on Maemo"10:56
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Stskeepsi should really install flash on this desktop..10:57
johnxI eventually gave in10:58
johnxflashblock is a nice balance10:58
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* lcukx41 likes flashblock10:59
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lcukx41i even contributed bugfix to it in the past :)10:59
lcukx41(my first ever open source contribution infact!11:00
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JaffaOK, talk of two repos in the /opt discussion has strayed into crazy territory for a while11:20
lcukx41its been crazy for a while11:23
* lcukx41 afks hto, cya later jaffa11:24
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RST38hMoo all11:33
RST38hDiscussing directory structure is what Linux gurus like best because it does not involve doing any actual work (i.e. writing code) =)11:34
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lbtRST38h: it's down to the fact that linux can do directory structures... not "oh bollocks, lets bung it all in \Windows"11:39
thuxis linux more flexible than other operation systems?11:41
RST38hlbt: True, but a real believer should take it to the extreme (see Gobolinux)11:41
RST38hlbt: And it is never complete unless your ls command shows directory structure in XML =)11:42
lbtthux: no, but linux devs have more useful stuff between their ears...11:42
thuxhehe11:42
lbtn'est pas? RST38h?11:42
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jrochalbt, thux: depends on the other OSs, Linux is pretty modular and that makes it really flexible11:43
lbtjrocha: to-whit the /opt discussion.... sigh.... choice is not always good11:43
lbt*NO* put it in /usr or you don't get a license.... BAD Nokia11:44
RST38hlbt: Somebody gave a link yesterday - gobolinux is where they place each app in its own dir, MacOSX/NeXT style11:44
RST38hThere are more modular OSes than Linux. AmigaOS comes to mind =)11:44
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thuxcan't one change system folders location in windows then?11:45
RST38hnot easily11:45
thuxyou cannot make links?11:46
RST38hno11:46
RST38hYou can make "links" but not links11:46
Jaffalbt: Although Windows actually is better (on the whole) on having apps not spread everywhere11:46
thuxnot like ln -s11:46
JaffaRST38h: You can make links too on NTFS11:46
RST38hJaffa: just not being done then11:46
lbtJaffa: true... they can't get out of C:11:46
JaffaSysInternals has a "junction" tool which exposes the API11:47
RST38hperfect, links are made with 3rd party tool from a hacking site11:47
Jaffalbt: Most apps I install in Windows go in D:\Apps\<package> and I know that unless it's installing drivers everything apart from its start menu shortcut and per-user data is in there.11:47
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JaffaRST38h: ...owned by MS.11:47
RST38hJaffa: even funnier =)11:47
jrochashouldn't we make a new channel for these talks that have appeared at least since yesterday? we could call it: #classicdiscussionsthatshouldbeconcluded10yearsago11:48
jrocha:)11:48
RST38hWell, if you have got a better topic to discuss here...11:48
* Jaffa finds the /opt stuff even more humourous given that - as Stskeeps pointed out - it's entirely compatible with the FHS11:49
Stskeepsbacon?11:49
Jaffa"Will Maemo 5 run on my 770? I want those whizzy 3D effects, and the browser seems so much more responsive!"11:49
Jaffa"And I'd love to make cell phone calls on it"11:49
MyrttiBAAAAACCCOOONNNN11:50
Myrttiactually, no11:50
MyrttiIce crean11:50
Myrtticream, even11:50
JaffaBacon ice cream?11:50
RST38hbacon flavored ice cream, yea11:50
inzwith anal leakage!11:50
Myrttioh, like Heston has11:51
Myrttihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6CLoRuvGcY11:51
lbtJaffa: the problem is not writing apps to /opt11:51
lbtit is porting existing apps/dependencies11:52
RST38hlbt: and what is the exact problem?11:52
lbtif I write an app that uses, say, slapd11:52
RST38hok...11:52
JaffaMyrtti: Indeed.11:52
lbtthen I have to repackage slapd to /opt11:52
lbtAAARRGHHH11:52
lbts/anything/slapd/11:52
Jaffalbt: indeed11:52
Stskeepslbt: or use optify! :p11:53
Stskeepsi wonder how ldconfig likes symlinks11:53
Jaffalbt: But, in my mental model the 100MB could be enough for the low-level things, and big apps/data can go in /opt11:53
JaffaStskeeps: It's fine with it11:53
Myrtti♥ Heston Blumenthal11:53
lbtI'm not opposed to /opt11:53
* Jaffa had no problems with ldconfig and symlinks in WIMP OS (a Gobolinux-like, RISC OS-like, ROX-AppDir-based Linux-kernel running OS)11:53
lbtit is a shame they put the burden on *everyone else*11:53
johnxJaffa, the only thing that concerns me is big deps: python, qt11:53
Jaffalbt: Tell me about it.11:54
johnxwell mainly those two :)11:54
lbtrather than doing it once for the base system11:54
johnxmaybe throw in webkit11:54
Stskeepslbt: there was argumentation for that11:54
Jaffalbt: But it's not going to change in the few weeks left11:54
Jaffajohnx: Yeah. Python's particularly problematic with its site-packages11:54
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Jaffajohnx: I say this as the packager of python-twitter and python-evolution11:54
lbtJaffa: I understand11:54
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lbthowever Nokia still deserve a kicking for getting it wrong11:55
RST38hlbt: Wait, this is not entirely correct11:55
Stskeeps'lo m-vo11:55
lbtso they learn from their mistakes11:55
lbt:)11:55
RST38hlbt: First of all only large apps go to opt11:55
m-voStskeeps, hi!11:55
Stskeepsm-vo: and welcome to /opt discussion hell :P11:55
m-voI guess I missed the /opt flamefest...11:55
* lbt can cope with /opt RST38h .... trust me ;)11:55
RST38hlbt: Secondly, your app binary or some libs may still go to /usr, and only share goes to opt11:55
m-voYeah, didn't think of joining #maemo, stupid me.11:55
m-voI'm replying to andrew right now about using /opt/maemo/ instead of /opt/<package>/.11:56
m-voDunno, any logs I should read before that?11:57
RST38hthat would cause a problem11:57
RST38hcan you already guess it or should I tell?11:57
m-voThe main message is: DON'T PANIC!11:57
Stskeepsm-vo: FHS seems to object a bit on that.. /opt/packagename is saner?11:57
RST38hGentlemen, there is a problem with /opt/<package> on Maemo11:57
RST38hNot a generic problem but a problem when applied to Maemo11:58
m-voI'll write the mail first before explaining here.11:58
RST38hGenerically, only huge packages (i.e. KDE, SUNW) go to /opt11:58
m-voMore efficient that way, I guess.11:58
RST38hSo, there are few of them and it does not take much to add their bin/lib/etc directories to paths11:58
* lbt is watching a left-handed pigeon having a fight...11:58
RST38hOn Maemo though, we can expect dozens of packages in /opt11:58
qwerty12_N810A shitton of Maemo is not standard; why is compliance with the FHS so important anyway?11:59
m-voMaybe just very quickly: forget about /opt and replace it with /space in your discussions.11:59
RST38hIf each of them gets its own bin directory, there will be Trouble11:59
m-voIt's a fuckup-inside-a-fuckup that we use /opt/maemo instead of /space.11:59
wazdI think we've really screwed up with OMWeather11:59
RST38hwhat is /space?11:59
johnxRST38h, symlinks man. symlinks.11:59
m-voIt's a new invention!11:59
RST38hwazd: looks forecish now?11:59
RST38hjohnx: but having too many symlinks is not such a good idea either, right?12:00
wazdRST38h: no, but foreca now looks like OMWeather)12:00
m-voRST38h, we just want a directory on another partition that we can put some files into.12:00
m-voI have used /space for this in the past when I needed it.12:00
wazdRST38h: and it's used in every n900 showcase video12:00
RST38hwazd: Want suggestion? ;)12:00
johnxRST38h, why? who cares about 300 - 1000 symlinks?12:00
johnxthat's the number we're talking about, absolute tops12:00
RST38hjohnx: yesterday people complained about symlink pollution being wrong12:00
RST38hwazd: paint it in khokhloma and let Foreca guys copy that =)12:01
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JaffaRST38h: For /usr/bin it's not too bad; especially since Debian's alternatives system already uses it12:01
johnxRST38h, it's definitely the lesser of two evils vs PATH pollution12:01
m-vojohnx, I agree.12:01
JaffaRST38h: I objec tto symlink pollution across billions of directories, but for one or two (and compared with PATH pollution)12:01
RST38hJaffa: you will also have to symlink lis etc12:01
RST38hBut with /opt/maemo you only pollute path with 1 (one) more string12:02
m-vosymlinks are not perfectly invisible, but I don't think there will be many, if any, problems.12:02
RST38hNot that bad, right?12:02
JaffaRST38h: Well, as I said above, my mental model has /opt for apps rather than libs; but that is an avoidance of the issue12:02
wazdRST38h: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMzz2EIK408 0:5112:02
m-voRST38h, it's unfortunately quite impossible to change the OS to recognize /opt/maemo as another prefix.12:03
JaffaRST38h: Except tools like maemo-optify are going to put the symlinks into /usr/bin, and for D-Bus services, and for icons, and for .desktop files.12:03
lbtJaffa: Qt is being built to install in /opt IIRC12:03
Jaffalbt: Yeah, that's a special case ;-)12:03
m-voRST38h, given the Fremantle schedule that is.12:03
m-voIt's of course perfectly possible in theory.12:03
m-voBut also a bit pointless.  Let's make the hack as invisble as we can.12:03
RST38hJaffa: Oh....Wrong.12:03
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* lbt wonders if the autobuilder could add some X-Maemo-opt: 10M X-Maemo-root: 1M to the .deb to help HAM??12:04
RST38hwazd: THAT is omweather???12:04
JaffaThe real soln is one of the unionfs implementations. And the problems with them which affect long term usage and mainline merging aren't relevant in this "overlay /opt/maemo|/space on /" ossie12:04
Jaffalbt: Help HAM how?12:04
wazdRST38h: no, that's foreca)12:04
RST38hwazd: Ah ok12:04
lbtspace calculations12:04
RST38hwazd: So they are not shipping omweather out of the box?12:05
Jaffalbt: But what'll HAM do with them?12:05
Jaffalbt: Oh, you mean "unable to install - not enough space?"12:05
lbtyes12:05
* m-vo lunch, then meeting, then more optification... :)12:05
wazdRST38h: but as I've said before, some mistrious nokia designer told vlad to draw same huge stuff12:05
Jaffalbt: There's already some information in Packages for it - but the realtime compression fscks it up12:05
X-Fadelbt: A package already specifies how much space is needed?12:05
wazdRST38h: They never meant to I think12:06
lbt10M free in / 500M free in opt.... package is 50M....12:06
lbtyes/no?12:06
X-Fadelbt: No changes to HAM will be possible anymore12:06
lbtjust an idea anyhow12:06
RST38hwazd: variable NxM organization in OMWeather is so much better12:07
johnxX-Fade, possible for a point release, right?12:07
johnxmaybe 3-6 months out?12:07
X-Fadelbt: I suggested a while ago to do the same as in S60. Where you can say where to install an app.12:07
wazdRST38h: well, there are some weird innovations like "simple mode"12:07
X-Fadejohnx: I have no idea. Outside the Nokia firewall for things like that ;)12:07
lbt:)12:07
johnxX-Fade, from experience: that got kind of ugly in the zaurus world12:08
RST38hwazd: aka "nokia mode"?12:08
X-Fadejohnx: Yeah, installing on removable media is also a pain.12:08
wazdRST38h: well, in other words yep12:08
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johnxif installing things to external media then a whole different package system is needed12:08
Stskeepsi vote for rpm!12:08
* Stskeeps ducks12:09
wazdRST38h: I tried to convince Vlad that there's no need in making simple mode when you have all your settings arranged properly12:09
RST38hwazd: well, if I were doing it, I would at some point suggested to them that in order to insist on particular features they have to pay for development12:09
adeusmmm12:09
adeusyou could just modify dpkg12:09
lcukx41Stskeeps, rpm! sod that, installshield ftw :p12:09
RST38hwazd: I mean, doing this is not wrong by itself, but what is the point in doing it for free if you are not even planning on doing it for yourself12:09
Stskeeps.bat files for installation12:09
johnxadeus, package a is installed to internal flash. package b is installed to removable sd. a depends on b12:10
wazdRST38h: ask Vlad :)12:10
* lcukx41 has a big problem12:10
RST38hI guess he can figure things out on his own :)12:10
adeusjohnx, MAGIC HAPPENS and it works12:10
RST38hlcuk: Out of bacon?12:10
adeus:)12:10
lcukx41everytime i ssh into machine it reboots12:10
wazdRST38h: they even somehow thrown me off the ship for a month12:10
lcukx41and i think its corrupted the filesystem12:10
johnxlcukx41, did you type ssh root@my-box reboot ?12:10
RST38hlcuk: somebody set /bin/reboot as your default shell?12:10
lcukx41i was on a ropy wlan last night12:10
lbtJaffa: Graham got you on the FHS arguement ;)12:10
lcukx41lol johnx no12:10
lbtI should have remembered that one12:11
RST38hwazd: there are lots of other cool things to do with the tablet, graphicaly ;)12:11
lcukx41johnx, tho that actually gives me an idea12:11
johnxadeus, go ask zaurus users how well that worked with sharp's version of qtopia :P12:11
lcukx41ill do ssh connection out from the tablet12:11
lcukx41and push files to laptop12:11
RST38hwazd: like CPU load meter that looks like RPM gauge12:11
RST38hwazd: Or, finally, a DECENT clock applet12:11
RST38hwazd: Or CPU temperature gauge that looks like a standard thermometer =)12:12
lcukx41hard to read12:12
lcukx41it would have to be so far it would look like a vibrator12:12
lcukx41fat ^12:12
suihkulokkimoo12:13
Jaffalbt: yeah :)12:13
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RST38hwazd: In fact, once the APIs are finalized and I finally get a device to debug on, I may have just create initial code for these and let you/qwerty/etc customize look and feel =)12:14
wazd_RST38h: well, I can always find what to do, but this situation is pretty weird12:14
RST38hwazd: It really sounds as something Vlad has to resolve on his own12:15
RST38hwazd: More or less like the MidnightCommander/Gnome thing12:15
lbt./configure --prefix=/opt is insane12:16
RST38hwhere Gnome chose MC as its file manager and for some period of time turned it into a Windows Explorer like thing12:16
RST38hI think it eventually died, while the original console MC continues kicking12:16
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wazd_RST38h: anyway, that sucks :D12:19
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RST38hwazd:....and that will come to pass too....12:21
wazd_RST38h: I hate when something's going wrong, I can't understand why that happened and I'm not allowed to help :)12:25
RST38hyou will be once things screw up :)12:25
lbtJaffa: "We will get rid of this abuse of /opt as fast as we can."  Marius..... <<< good chap ;)12:26
Stskeepsheh, but what about those that change their packages to assume it's in /opt? :P12:26
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Jaffalbt: WHat Stskeeps says12:28
wazd_RST38h: http://omweather.garage.maemo.org/down/snapshot22.png12:28
Jaffalbt: If it's going to be replaced in an SSU, then the *only* solution is maemo-optify at the auto-builder.12:28
wazd_RST38h: http://omweather.garage.maemo.org/down/screenshot_7h.png12:28
lbtJaffa, Stskeeps ... this is why I like to understand the long term solution.... :)12:29
Jaffalbt: indeed12:29
lbtit helps ensure the short term ones are in the right direction12:29
RST38hwazd: too huge, does not look configurable :(12:30
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lbteven if they are not the best short-term solutions12:30
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RST38hlbt: long term solution would be to move out the whole /usr12:30
lbtand that is what Marius indicates will happen12:30
RST38hlbt: BUT Nokia folks say there are performance problems when keeping /usr at eMMC12:30
lbtyes12:30
lbtmy reply suggests how they can do this12:31
wazd_RST38h: that's what I say :)12:31
lbthowever12:31
RST38h+ the problem reflashing of course12:31
Stskeeps /usr/share on emmc, :P12:31
lbtI solved that12:31
wazd_RST38h: it is configurable though (luckly)12:31
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lbtIIRC there is a problem with linux and symlinks12:31
lbtessentially they're not cached?12:31
lbtnot sure12:31
lbtso they cause an i/o read each time?12:31
glasswould there end up so much data that it would matter?12:32
lbtnot if you do what I suggest12:32
RST38hdepends on what data12:32
glasscouldn't you cache at where the symlink points? thus removing need for actual reading12:32
lbtI'm really not sure I'm right12:32
lbtit's just ISTR12:32
RST38hlbt: No, I think the eMMC problem has to do with lower physical read performance12:32
RST38hlbt: nothing to do with caching12:32
lbtread my reply to Marius12:33
RST38hwazd: I still think we need a steampunk theme.12:33
lbtalso I was concerned about the indirect via /usr on eMMC12:33
lbt*if* my vague knowledge is right12:33
RST38hwazd: Decent one, with UI elements made of "copper" and glass pressure gauges12:33
glasscyberpunk! after all n900 is closest to a 'deck' that there is out there12:33
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lbtback soon12:33
glassRST38h: raytracing ftw for those12:34
RST38hglass: it's a comlog\12:34
RST38hglass: Not really. They will still end up being pixel art12:34
RST38hbecause there ain't too many pixels in them even on N900 screen12:34
glassRST38h: still, faster to do12:34
glassthan toying with photoshop12:34
RST38hglass: has to look cool, no point doing it otherwise12:35
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glassalso glass is a bitch to do pixel by pixel and so are round shapes12:36
RST38hmmmm....12:37
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ccookeIs it known what day the party will be at the Maemo summit?12:41
inzevery day?-)12:42
ccookeheh12:42
RST38hthe moment they start giving away free n900s to every participant?12:42
ccooke*laugh*12:42
ccookeWhat would be *nice* is giving away the pre-ordered ones :-)12:43
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timeless_mbplbt: it is possible to install windows off c:, and even to not have a c:12:53
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timeless_mbpit isn't easy, but it is possible :)12:54
* lbt cares because?12:54
lbt<grin>12:54
glassyeh i did that once12:54
glasshad a broken win on c12:54
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RST38hhow do you know it was not using some files from that broken win install?12:54
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adeusI had multiple windows versions installed on separate drives12:55
* lbt really doesn't know much about windows. I could never seriously argue against it technically.12:55
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glassRST38h: well, i did run some files from the c:, i didn't want to reinstall everything12:55
RST38hdoes not count then :)12:55
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* RST38h boots Suse Linux 9! 12:55
lbtRST38h: 9?12:55
glassmost windows apps don't care if they're 'installed' or not as long as the files are at the right place relative to the executable12:56
RST38hlbt: at least it says so12:56
lbt11.1 seems current12:57
lbtnot a suse bod either - I just like them and their attitude wrt OBS a lot :)12:57
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RST38hwho cares what current is...12:58
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lbtsecurity patches do13:00
* Sho_ recently installed SuSE 6.313:01
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Sho_to see KDE 1.1 again :-)13:01
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* RST38h never had success with Suse, had boxed versions since 1.0 and none of them worked out of the box13:02
Andy80hi all13:02
RST38hIn fact the first Linux that worked out of the box for me was Ubuntu13:02
Sho_oh, I don't like SuSE either.13:02
Sho_but it was the only thing with KDE 1.1 I found in the drawer13:03
wazd_RST38h: top srcret PM :D13:03
jrochahi Andy8013:03
wazd_Andy80: heya13:03
RST38hwazd: btw somebody really has to redraw the icon for internal temperature13:03
Andy80I think most of you is using ubuntu jaunty, so... you could have had the same problem with xephyr... do you know where I can find an already patched .deb package of Xephyr for Ubuntu 9.04? I'm talking about this bug: http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2159113:04
Andy80jrocha: hi :)13:04
wazd_RST38h: well, there was separate icon for both my sets13:04
wazd_RST38h: but Vlad desided to keep Contour one13:04
RST38hand you can have "local conditions" icon based on the light sensor reading (i.e. dark = cloudy, totally dark = night)13:04
RST38hreally has ot be part of icon set...13:05
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wazd_RST38h: http://s16.radikal.ru/i190/0909/44/921908a085f1.png <- glance icon :)13:05
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RST38hwazd: Yahooo! N920!13:07
RST38hslim metal body no keyboard!13:07
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wazd_RST38h: oops, I think I just spoiled something :D13:14
RST38hif you guess too close, you know what will happen =)13:14
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wazd_RST38h: ninjas and stuff, yeah-yeah :)13:14
RST38hninjas, black helicopters, mysterious suicides by finnish salami13:14
wazd_RST38h: I like finnish salami :P13:15
wazd_RST38h: check your PM :)13:15
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RST38hok13:16
RST38hnothing13:17
wazd_hmm13:17
till-reindeer-salami?13:17
aSIMULAtordo you like finnish makkara?13:23
RST38hnot found here13:24
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wazd_aSIMULAtor: yeah, never tried :)13:24
RST38hMhm...Redhat3 went into cardiac arrest13:25
wazd_but there's still plenty of borsch, schee, pelmenee and stuff :D13:25
aSIMULAtorit's like a big ass hot dog full of yummy nitrate13:26
aSIMULAtorso good for you13:26
aSIMULAtorbut finns seem to love eating tons of it for juhannus13:26
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wazd_RST38h: you're gonna die now :D13:30
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wazd_RST38h: http://www.hero.mts.ru/13:30
wazd_RST38h: check the presentation13:30
RST38hit is a corporate laptop, IT will resurrect it =)13:30
wazd_RST38h: Have you seen russian translations in nokLas?)13:31
RST38hwazd: Shit, people who write these texts do not deserve a job outside McD13:31
RST38hwazd: Yea, remember Noklas run exactly the same chipset as Arkanoid's cell phone watch13:32
RST38hwazd: So, everything he reports about translations is the same =)13:32
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wazd_RST38h: I wonder why they don't use some opensourced stuff13:32
RST38hwazd: 'cause it is MTK13:33
RST38hwazd: They do not speak any language but Chinese, they are too large to see anything outside the company, and they are also secretive like a bunch of fucking illuminati13:33
wazd_RST38h: I just saw nokla 5900 (5730 look) - it has stuff from sonyericsson, nokia, samsung and motorola :D13:33
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RST38hwazd: The physical appearance is designed (designed?) by the "Nokla" people. The chipset and firmware are usually from MTK13:34
RST38hUnless there has been a switch lately13:35
wazd_"beautiful bookmarks" :D Jezz, how can they release that shit :D13:35
wazd_I can't stop loling :D13:35
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RST38hwazd: http://arkanoid.livejournal.com/223220.html (see the paragraph on UI messages)13:36
wazd_"get ready to personalize..." maaaan13:36
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wazd_voice call, lol :D13:38
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RST38hwazd: OTKL BL!13:39
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RST38hwazd: Which in English should probably translate to DSBL BTCH13:40
wazd_RST38h: sort of :D13:41
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kyndeAnyone used SDL in smartQ5? (fullscreen touchscreen seem flaky)13:45
RST38hwazd: but I suddenly understood where weird htc hero text came from13:47
suihkulokkifor everyone in helsinki region, it is today: http://free-thursday.pieni.net/13:48
RST38hwazd: The original text was targeted at US customers and meant to say that unlike those subsidized feature phones like samsung or lg you can customize the hero13:49
kirmasuihkulokki: I suppose I should come to check it out, unless gf denies permission ;)13:49
RST38hwazd: Some lesser light from marketing decided that direct translation will do the job, after all they spent shitload of money on US advertising campaign13:50
RST38hwazd: The thought that nobody here even KNOWS what a locked down subsidized phone is has never crossed their mind(s)13:50
suihkulokkikirma: just remember to say you are meeting stinky geeks, not hot girls =)13:52
SpeedEvilSome geeks are hot girls!13:54
SpeedEvil(though few unfortunately)13:54
SpeedEvil(few girls that is)13:54
kirmainstantly after mentioning this on irc, gf called13:54
JaffaShe's deep inspecting your packets13:54
kirma"darling, come to do clothes shopping!" - "you know, I'm actually working full time... and it's not even 2pm"13:55
kirma:I13:55
aol_hot girls? I'm there !13:55
zerojayDunno... I've met my share of hot geek girls. All after I've already gotten married, unfortunately. lol13:55
timelessis that better or worse than deep inspecting your pockets?13:55
RST38hIf we assume that krisse is a girl, then we have got at least four girls in maemo.org community13:56
suihkulokkitimeless: you are coming.13:56
kirmapocket billiards13:56
RST38hWhich is abnormally high for a horde of Linux geeks, if you ask me =)13:56
timelessokia isn't paying for me to go14:02
timelesss/o/no/14:02
infobottimeless meant: nokia isn't paying for me to go14:02
zerojaySo you definitely won't be there then?14:02
timelessi'll definitely be unhappy14:03
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aSIMULAtor05:56 < kirma> "darling, come to do clothes shopping!" - "you know, I'm actually working full time... and it's not even 2pm"14:14
aSIMULAtorLOLERCOPTER14:14
zerojayIf my wife asked me to go clothes shopping, even after 5pm, I'd probably blow my own head off.14:15
kirmawell, I also stated that it might be less stressful if she went without me :)14:16
kirmafor both...14:16
aSIMULAtori'm a good wife, i don't ask my husband to do thigns like shopping14:17
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timelessbecause he'd get all the wrong things? :)14:18
kirmamy gadget shopping process is sort of stalled14:18
kirmano need to buy anything too fancy for a while...14:18
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aSIMULAtorno cause i like internet shopping :P14:21
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aSIMULAtori can't stand going to shops to be honest14:21
rkirtimorning everyone14:22
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chxaSIMULAtor: most shops have a really low selection compared to google :P14:24
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kirmathankfully google has also too low woo factor on stuff nowadays... except quite rarely14:25
chxwoo?14:25
kirmaor wow, whatever you like14:25
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zerojayPCYes, woo please.14:26
RST38hboo factor14:26
kirmaso, occassional gadget purchases turn out to be this sort: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1138 ... unless something like N900 appears after all the waiting ;)14:26
RST38hmoo factor too, let us not ignore that14:26
zerojayPCThough Google having a John Woo factor would be cool too.14:26
* SpeedEvil loves dealextreme too.14:30
SpeedEvil(though he tends to purchase parts to make his own flashlights)14:31
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RST38hWhen SCP-553 attaches itself to a host, hosts have reported that it swims around their head, sometimes staring at or "sucking" on the host.14:55
zerojaySweet14:56
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aol_do you guys use Eclipse integration when developing for Maemo5 ?15:13
aol_what should I look for when I want something more than vi editor?15:14
RST38hpico15:14
RST38hand nano too15:14
SpeedEvilemacs?15:14
qwerty12_N810notepad15:15
SpeedEvilAn application to read punched cards placed on a black surface.15:16
SpeedEvilWith a hand-punch tool.15:16
aol_I would not exactly call those more than vi15:17
qwerty12_N810How dare you mock notepad :(15:17
glass_edlin15:17
vesaqt editor apparently15:17
glass_i actually started j2me with plain notepad.. with wtk15:17
aol_well I tried to make serious question, but turned out I'm wasting my time15:18
glass_aol_: lemme know if the eclipse stuff works for that if you try it15:18
vesaaol_: seriously, qt editor seems to be a nice option15:18
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aol_vesa: can I write non qt code easily with that?15:18
aol_I'm doing hildon gtk app for work project15:18
vesait seems so, i'm not doing maemo stuff but i asked a guy sitting next o me who is15:19
aol_ok15:19
vesathe maemo5 sdk doesn't have qt stuff yet15:19
aol_I know :)15:19
vesakk =)15:19
RST38haol: Ok serious answer to serious question:15:19
RST38haol: Eclipse is a huge, slow, crash prone piece of fecal matter.15:20
RST38haol: For a Linux IDE try Geany or (maybe) Anjuta15:20
glasseclipse isn't that bad always. i like it for j2me15:20
glassthough dualcore is a must for keeping emu running while editing code15:20
aol_RST38h: ok does their debugger work with maemo sdk?15:21
RST38haol: No idea.15:21
* RST38h debugs directly on the device15:21
aol_there's on device debugger for n900?15:21
aol_or did you mean you run debugger ON the device15:21
RST38hI run printf()s on the device15:22
aol_jesus :)15:22
RST38hAnd can run GDB too, if needed15:22
aol_I'm so lost here that I almost miss the symbian dev tools :)15:23
aol_but I guess it gets better when I start knowing stuff15:23
RST38hSymbian has got development tools?15:23
glassi got carbide and google open right now...15:24
RST38haside from GCCE and a crude "build system" written in PERL?15:24
* RST38h never found out what carbide was. Another Eclipse based IDE?15:24
glassi'm too lazy to setup cmdline properly so building pkges with carbide too now15:24
glassyeh15:25
glass2.0 isn't bad15:25
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glassbefore that.. pretty horrible15:25
RST38hinto the ditch it goes then.15:25
aol_it's pretty good nowadays15:25
* RST38h is too lazy to have to deal with a java app15:25
aol_it's not as good as visual studio, but it works. debugger is good and there on device debugging as well15:25
glassyeh15:25
glassand it's free now15:25
glassand the code indexer doesn't hit the dirt so often now either15:26
RST38hcode indexer. hitting dirt. not so often now.15:29
* RST38h will pass.15:29
RST38hit is really easier to edit in FAR editor, then build by running a batch file and send to the device for installation15:30
aol_I guess I disagree so much that I don't want to ask more questions about the tools :)15:34
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* RST38h bets he can debug faster than aol_ =)15:34
aol_have fun with your printf's15:35
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Macerhm15:36
Macerwtf15:36
Maceri had to manually adjust my clock?15:37
* Macer checks wtf is going on with ntpd15:37
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derfRST38h: Does that include time spent not writing bugs in the first place?15:37
Macerhaha15:38
Macerironic enough he is proud to fix broken code? :)15:39
Macerif something really required such debugging speed sounds like it would be best to start from scratch and make your own15:39
RST38hderf: Partially, I guess15:39
derfIt's actually a serious question (though the irony is not lost on me).15:40
RST38hderf: When your debugging means are limited, you generally try not to be lousy with code15:40
Macerhm15:40
Macereither i'm going nuts15:40
Maceror this isn't working correctly.. i'm downloading something at 25MB/s ?15:40
derfI used to use MSVC quite regularly, and found I used its debugger as a crutch.15:40
RST38hderf: And yes, having printf() is kinda luxury, I debugged on systems that only had 2 LEDs15:40
* Macer hopes comcast messed up and it stays this way15:40
derfRather than think about what my code was doing, I'd spend all my time in the debugger trying to catch it going wrong.15:41
RST38hderf: Shit, original Win3.1 had no printf(), it only had Beep()15:41
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derfWhen I shifted primarily to Linux development, I didn't have that luxury anymore.15:41
RST38hderf: I actually use MSVC debugger at work, but it is important to know the limits of what it can do15:41
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Macercowards!15:42
Macer:) debuggers15:42
Macerfor shame15:42
RST38hderf: I.e. it often screws up on Release code, has trouble inspecting stack (especially if you had binary translated code running), may not know certain symbols etc15:42
Macer</troll>15:42
derfRST38h: Well, it was more like, I would write some new code, and rather than review it to see if all of my assumptions were really met, I'd just fire it up and step through it a couple of times.15:42
RST38hderf: When debugging with printf()s you  basically ignore all this uncertainty15:42
derfAnd if it looked good, ship it!15:43
RST38hderf: My students did that all the time15:43
derfObviously that's quite limited in the number of bugs it can catch.15:43
RST38hderf: Usually were lucky to get a C15:43
derfI _was_ a student at the time.15:43
MacerRST38h: is a printf frowned upon?15:43
RST38hderf: I stopped doing that when coding for air traffic control software company15:43
RST38hMacer: not by me15:43
Macerso their code was just bad?15:44
RST38hderf: The cost of a corner case there could be really high, and there were stories of companies that had to pay it15:44
derfWell, I actually did want to write working code, so what I found was I'd keep coming back to code that was supposedly "working" before and spend more and more time with it in the debugger...15:44
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derfThat if I had just spent 5 minutes thinking about when I wrote it, would've saved me hours of time.15:45
derfNow I do the thinking up-front, to avoid having to use gdb.15:45
Corsacif it builds, it's ok15:46
GeneralAntillesYeesh, that /opt thread really ballooned.15:47
vesabeing able to debug things on a real device is a real big bonus. simulators/emulators rarely get things like camera, sensors etc. right15:47
Andy80Jaffa: ping15:47
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RST38hderf: I only use gdb for stack traces really15:48
derfRST38h: Exactly.15:48
JaffaAndy80: pong15:48
derfDoing anything complicated in gdb is so painful, it's easier to use printf's.15:48
RST38hderf: Also it is cheaper to write bullet prrof code from the beginning15:49
derfWell, I'm not sure I believe that.15:49
vesathe elusive bullet proof code...15:49
RST38hderf: Then you only get two types of problems: 1) geniune bugs and 2) customer wanted it differently15:49
chxi am wondering will the n900 be able to compile its own stuff?15:50
vesayou have to be quite the genius to spot everything that can go wrong15:50
chxor still crosscompiling is the name of the game15:50
derfMaybe I'm confused if your "bullet proof" code has "genuine bugs".15:50
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RST38hderf: You are not getting into "whathefuckiwantedtodohere"situation15:50
Macerchx: me too15:50
Maceri'm sure you will have to cross compile15:50
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Jaffachx: The N810 can compile its own stuff, I assume the N900 will be able to (and it's a more realistic prospect)15:50
Macer:-\15:50
Macerunless you have a touchbook :-D15:50
RST38hderf: Geniune bug - skipped function call, wrong variable name, a typo basically15:51
derfRST38h: I'm not sure I've ever been in that situation, unless it's code I haven't looked at in 5 years.15:51
chxJaffa: that'd be like compiling KDE on a Pentium III. Only takes a week or four.15:51
derfAnd even then I can usually remember.15:51
RST38hderf: It is usually trivial to force a university student into that mode15:51
RST38hderf: Even a senior one15:51
zerojay64 hours for me.15:52
derfI'm convinced that the "usual" university student is not that bright.15:52
RST38hderf: They write code without clear understanding of what they are doing15:52
RST38hderf: Well, I have no idea of how bright they were (did not teach any advanced theory class)15:52
RST38hderf: But most of them surely has vague understanding of what they do15:53
GeneralAntillesderf, most people are not that bright. ;)15:53
GeneralAntillesderf, it stands to reason that university students shouldn't differ from the curve too much.15:53
derfWell, there was a time when you actually had to be moderately intelligent to get into a university.15:54
derfFortunately, this is America, so we fixed that problem.15:54
derfBut at least you'd think the dumb ones would have the decency to go into humanities or something.15:54
GeneralAntillesWoo, mandatory public education!15:54
RST38hderf: Oh they do15:54
derfAnd stay the heck out of science and engineering.15:54
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vesauniversity is for learning. i don't see the problem in people who don't know stuff wanting to learn stuff. intelligence is not something you can measure with a stick.15:55
RST38hderf: I am not sure I even want to start on the humanities/business/etc stufdents, because it will become politically incorrect very very soon15:55
derfvesa: "Ignorance" and "Stupidity" are different things.15:55
RST38hvesa: The problem is that they do not want to learn stuff. They want a degree.15:55
derfI have absolutely no problem with the former. It's curable.15:55
SpeedEvilvesa: yes it is!15:55
RST38hvesa: Ok, first they want at least a B for the class, THEN they want a degree based on those Bs15:56
vesathen they should just fail all the exams and not graduate?15:56
SpeedEvilvesa: hit someone with a stick - if they keep coming back - they are not intelligent.15:56
RST38hvesa: Sometimes.15:56
SpeedEvilvesa: Or they like being hit.15:56
vesaSpeedEvil: that's true, i'll give you that =)15:56
RST38hvesa: But see, grades are now weighted15:56
RST38hvesa: So, a lot of substandard students still get degrees15:56
vesaRST38h: that's a problem with the system, not the people abusing it =)15:56
RST38hvesa: Dunno I would say both15:57
RST38hIt is a complex problem and it cannot be solved overnight.15:57
glassit's not a problem when substandard people pass..  it's a problem when substandard people become the teachers15:57
RST38hYou really have to start solving it with the middle/high school15:57
RST38hglass: Ah, yes, the education majors15:57
GeneralAntillesThe public school system isn't helping.15:58
derfglass: Of course, in CS or CE, anyone who was any good would go into industry and make a boatload of money.15:58
RST38hglass: Will it be sufficiently politically correct if I admit that I would like to exterminate them all upon graduation?15:58
glasswho would become mcdondalds workers in few years then15:58
RST38hderf: Not necessarily15:58
RST38hderf: Academia has got a lot of perks15:58
derfRST38h: Sure, some people love to teach.15:58
glassRST38h: pretty much yes necessarely15:58
glassover the years it just gets worse as bad people make the good people leave even earlier15:59
RST38hderf: The biggest perk being that you live and work among intelligent people15:59
glasshahah15:59
derfRST38h: Depends on what university you go to.15:59
RST38hderf: You are not getting that in most industrial workplaces15:59
derfThere are a handful that are very good. Most are not.15:59
RST38hderf: Ok, let us just say that UMD is sufficiently good16:00
RST38hderf: I have not been to bad ones, fortunately16:00
RST38hderf: You also get more freedom to do what you want to do, less politics (but still some)16:00
derfLess politics? In academia?16:01
derfAre you insane?16:01
RST38hderf: I am not16:01
glasshaha16:01
glasshe is16:01
RST38hderf: Compare with a large corporation like Boeing or Lokheed16:01
glassof course, russia might be different16:01
RST38hglass: talking about us16:01
SpeedEvilUniversity of Mass Destruction?16:01
derfSpeedEvil: Or Maryland. They're equivalent.16:01
glassacademia is nothing but politics16:02
derfRST38h: What glass said.16:02
glass"hey let's make a c++ interpreter since c++ seems confusing due to having to compile it"16:02
RST38hderf: Not talking about small companies, mainly comparing to huge corporations16:02
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derfI went back into industry to _avoid_ the politics of academia.16:02
SpeedEvilIt should be about two ends of a log!16:02
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glassin academia the bad politics don't cause a bankrupcy either16:03
RST38hderf: I knew people who left industry because of the politics16:03
glassso they stay16:03
RST38hglass: not always16:03
RST38hglass: also, there isn't much you can do to bankrupt Lokheed or IBM either16:03
derfRST38h: In academia, you've got thousands of people scrabbling for a few dozen tenure positions opening up across the country.16:03
RST38hglass: they are states within a state16:03
glassRST38h: they're not doing shit business either since it shows on the bottom line sooner or later16:04
RST38hderf: true16:04
derfPeople are willing to work for less than unemployment benefits as postdocs.16:04
glassRST38h: well you know why i have zero interest going to work inside nokia?16:04
derfJust to hope to get a tenure-track position.16:04
RST38hglass: Same reason why I would not go to IB<? =)16:04
RST38hIBM16:04
glassprobably16:04
RST38hderf: Postdocs do not get guaranteed tenure trackpositions16:04
glassanyways, one doesn't need funding to do cs anyways, besides welfare16:04
derfAnd once they do, they will teach all the shit classes, scramble desparately to publish, and do "service", i.e., all the crap needed to run the department that the tenured professors don't want to do.16:05
derfRST38h: Hence "hope".16:05
RST38hderf: In fact, universities rarely upgrade postdocs to associate professors16:05
RST38hderf: So there is no t much ope there16:05
derfRST38h: No, you do a postdoc somewhere good in the hope of getting a tenure-track position somewhere else.16:05
RST38hderf: Doing laid back work you like for a coupe of years is a sufficient reason to become a postdoc though16:05
adeuscd ..16:05
adeusdir16:05
adeusargh16:05
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RST38hderf: SOmewhere else - yes. Same place - no16:06
glass_in the long run a cushy do nothing academia job is just a way to become a human wreck though16:06
derfBecause there are hundreds of people competing for every tenure-track position, too.16:06
* glass_ has drank too much with academia do nothings..16:06
Macertenure heh16:06
derfIf you "only" have 4 or 5 years experience as a grad student, you hae no hope...16:06
Macerthe nirvana of the education path of employment16:06
derfI mean, it's great for the winners.16:07
RST38hderf: I seen people without postdoc experience get positions16:07
derfBut a) there aren't many winners and b) they aren't chosen by merit.16:07
RST38hderf: Every place is good for the winners16:07
MacerRST38h: i never met someone with tenure that didn't have a phd16:07
RST38hderf: Isn't this why they are called winners?16:07
glass_hehe, depends on the viewpoint16:07
RST38hMacer: After 4-5 years as grad student and defending dissertation you become a phd16:07
RST38hMacer: postdoc is AFTER phd16:08
Maceroh is it?16:08
derfYes.16:08
Macerwow. :)16:08
derfHence "post" and "doc".16:08
derfFor "after doctorate".16:08
Macerhahaha16:08
Macerwell then. i guess RST38h is right :)16:08
RST38hderf: Either way, academia has got its share of ugly, but it is far from hell you describe :)16:08
Macerdoesn't matter16:08
Macerin the end all that matters is money16:08
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glassmoney and having fun16:09
RST38hderf: At least in engineering departments, I understand that humanities are way different16:09
Macerglass: not really. best times are doing nothing ;)16:09
* RST38h shudders just thinking what political science department loks like on the inside16:09
Macerwaking up and having absolutely nothing to do is nice16:09
derfRST38h: I'm not saying it's "hell"... it's just the game is rigged, and I can see it from here.16:09
glassMacer: take it from me, that's not fun in the long haul :D16:09
derfAnd I don't like playing rigged games.16:09
RST38hderf: Every game is rigged16:09
RST38hderf: Life is a rigged game.16:10
Macerglass: :) oh i'm not saying not to have fun16:10
Macerbut the sweet deep breath of freedom is nice16:10
Macertrue freedom is money16:10
derfRST38h: Sure. Maybe I don't like playing rigged games that pay $35k/year.16:10
RST38hMacer: especially when somebody else is paying your bills16:10
MacerRST38h: er. i pay my own ;)16:10
Maceractually16:10
RST38hderf: CS academia pays more than that16:10
Maceryou're right16:10
glassMacer: my plan b) of life got fucked when i got stuck with pancreas not fit for drinking anymore so when i'm bored now i'm reeeeeaally bored16:10
Maceri have them autopaid haha16:10
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derfRST38h: Not for postdocs.16:10
RST38hderf: for postdocs too16:10
Macerglass: liquor sucks anyways16:10
RST38hderf: (and yes, I know)16:11
glassMacer: and finland sucks for everything else16:11
derfI saw the job advertisements get passed around every week.16:11
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Macerglass: move ;)16:11
Macermoney lets you do that16:11
Macerhaha16:11
glassyeh i should16:11
Maceri never understood people's quest for power when they have money16:11
Maceri'd rather just have my time to myself ;)16:11
glassi like socialising to some degree16:12
glasshence i'm on irc anyhow16:12
glassi used to think i'd be happy with just a computer that had nethack installed16:13
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glassanyways, in finland, if you really want to do just nothing and have all the time, theres no need to whore in the academy16:13
glassyou're not going to go without an apartment or die from lack of food anyhow16:14
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glassplenty of my highschool friends have done practically nothing since then16:14
RST38hEhehe16:14
RST38hglass: Apparently, you can do the same in US16:14
glassyeah it's not a problem when there is no famine or such16:15
RST38hglass: Keywords are "learning disability" and "chronic fatigue syndrome"16:15
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vesaooh, fremantle vmware image16:22
Stskeepshmm?16:22
keesjlike an emulator?16:22
aol_vesa: where ?16:23
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Macerrootkit.org16:25
Macerheh16:25
vesasheeet. it's virtual pc, not vmware...16:25
vesagarage.maemo.org... will have to check if there's a vmware image available yet16:25
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Maceror vbox?16:26
javispedroafternoon16:26
* javispedro runs out of popcorn while watching -devels /opt thread16:27
* Stskeeps refills16:27
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* javispedro thanks and continues watching16:29
X-Fadejavispedro: Just karma collecting, that's all ;)16:29
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* Jaffa wants a unionfs. And he wants it now.16:31
* Jaffa ponders cracking open scratchbox tonight16:31
Stskeepsaufs16:31
Stskeepsnot unionfs16:31
Stskeeps:P16:31
* RST38h hands Jaffa a unionfs on a stick16:31
SpeedEvilI want a nice union FS.16:31
JaffaStskeeps: OK, I meant "I want a union FS"16:31
RST38hNobody wants reiserfs any more? Thought so.16:31
JaffaNot "I want unionfs"16:32
SpeedEvilWith a two-level effect, and a stream running down the middle.16:32
SpeedEvilAlso support for disparate speeds and RAID.16:32
SpeedEvilMy ideal one would let me RAID my SD card, a small ramdrive for the journal, and my HD.16:32
vesaumm, so nobody knows if there's a vmware image for maemo5 yet?16:33
javispedroRST38h: reiser4 did compression on the fly. I was seriously considering it yesterday for my new /opt emmc partition...16:33
* mgedmin stopped wanting for a union fs a long time ago, having lost all hope16:33
keesjapparently this is the right kind of problems to post on the list(problems that are impossible to solve)16:33
Jaffamgedmin: Around /opt?16:33
derfI was about to say, "I would kill for an fs that did compression on the fly," but then I realized how that would sound.16:33
mgedminJaffa: nah, I actually think I don't mind symlink trees16:34
RST38hjavis: gzip *.sfc =)16:34
Macerjavispedro: wow16:34
RST38hgzip *.smc too16:34
* javispedro proposes another solution: reviving UMSDOS16:34
SpeedEvilderf: consider reiserfs then16:34
mgedminNO ZOMBIES PLEASE, javispedro16:34
Macerpeople still use reiser?16:34
derfSpeedEvil: I don't use experimental filesystems.16:34
Jaffamgedmin: Do you not think it just smells icky?16:34
Stskeepsyay umsdos16:34
SpeedEvilderf: I mean - if you like killing.16:34
Macerwhy not zfs? ;)16:34
derfSpeedEvil: Oh, okay.16:34
vesaaol_: seems that vmware player atleast has virtual pc listed as supported formats.16:34
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vesaaol_: i'll let you know if the image works in about 20 mins... slooow download16:35
derfBut the only thing I actually liked about NTFS was the built-in compression.16:35
SpeedEvilHas anyone benchmarked x86 emulators?16:35
Macercompression = slowdown16:35
X-FadeIf only filesystem compression could be offloaded to some hardware ;)16:35
* mgedmin waits for inz to repeat his "multi-target development with scratchbox" post with freemantle included16:35
derfI don't understand how it can be more than a decade later, and we still don't have that in Linux.16:35
SpeedEvilderf: well - ...16:35
SpeedEvilderf: what percent of the average users files are compressed?16:35
* X-Fade slaps mgedmin 16:35
SpeedEvilCompression != slowdown.16:35
mgedminouch16:35
derfThe average _Linux_ user?16:35
SpeedEvilOr you're doing it wrong.16:36
mgedmincompression sucks anyway16:36
SpeedEvilCompression = speedup16:36
mgedminit doesn't do anything for all my multi-gigabyte mp3ses and videos16:36
MacerSpeedEvil: uhm16:36
glass_hmmm... what were those dos tools called again, diskstacker?16:36
vesaaol_: google for 'maemo5 vpc image' returns a thread with the garage.maemo.org link in it if you're interested16:36
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Maceroverhead for the on the fly compression would eat cycles16:36
mgedminall it does it lies about how much disk space you actually have16:36
mgedminanyway, jffs2 _is_ compressed, so there16:36
SpeedEvilMacer: sure. If your disk is fast compared to your CPU16:36
mgedmin(and it does eat cycles)16:36
SpeedEvilMacer: if you're waiting on the disk...16:37
Macerand jffs2 is slow :-P16:37
glass_all the big stuff on my hd's is stuff that doesn't compress well anyhow16:37
MacerSpeedEvil: heh.16:37
derfConsider also that page cache keeps the compressed pages cached.16:37
derfThe GB's of source code on my hdd would tend to disagree.16:37
* SpeedEvil ponders a compression scheme that searches out matching files, and substitutes them.16:37
SpeedEvilA 8GB hd-dvd rip of 2001-a-space-odessy becomes a 400k compressed text tile.16:38
derfHey, I have this great idea, let's make hundreds of thousands of tiny text files, and not use compression or tail-merging!16:38
Macercached huh?16:38
SpeedEvilderf: inn got there first16:38
RST38hBTW, ReiserFS should be the classical case of the virtuous open source usage16:38
MacerSpeedEvil: hahaha16:39
RST38hThe author is gone, the community is going to pick it up and continue development.16:39
RST38hIs it happening? =)~16:39
javispedroRST38h, it is.16:39
Corsacyeah but reiserfs sucks16:39
MacerRST38h: virtuous?16:39
RST38hjavis: Who is working on it?16:39
Macerhaha16:39
javispedrothere are still talks about merging it will mainline16:39
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javispedros/will/with16:39
derfRST38h: Who was working on it _before_ he was gone?16:39
RST38hMacer: Well you know how OSS advocates always saying that OSS is to preserve the code16:39
glass_haha point16:39
RST38hderf: Reiser, I guess16:39
SpeedEvilPlus - how many filesystems authors can you make an appointment to go and see - and they'll probably see you.16:40
Stskeepshah16:40
muep_free software preserves useful code16:40
derfRST38h: He seemed to be more interested in getting in flamewars on lkml.16:40
glass_haha16:40
MacerRST38h: yeah.. im sure people would love to use hitler code16:40
RST38hjavis: But is it being developed?16:40
glass_RST38h: does it need development?16:40
RST38hMacer: Nazi uniform design is the most widely copied, every SF flick uses it16:40
derfI mean, how many years did reiser4 go unmerged while he was at the helm?16:40
RST38hMacer: So, yes, in a sense16:40
javispedroRST38h: http://reiser4.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page16:40
RST38hglass: I have no idea really16:41
MacerRST38h: i was being serious ;)16:41
RST38hjavis: thanks =)16:41
javispedromore like "being updated" other than developed16:41
Macerif hitler made an fs i would use it16:41
RST38hjavis: it counts16:41
RST38hMacer: man, you have got too high opinion of the guy16:41
RST38hMacer: he was a wacko, period.16:41
Macerheh16:42
Maceras was reiser ;)16:42
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lopzhola16:42
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RST38hMacer: Reiser, fortunately, was a relatively harmless wacko, only offed one soul16:42
* javispedro wants updated UMSDOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMSDOS16:43
SpeedEvilMacer: naah - Lycra is the most commonly used cloth in the future.16:43
SpeedEviljavispedro: with support for Stacker(r) ?16:43
RST38hjavis: oh...looks painful16:43
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javispedroRST38h: that's what Apple would do.16:44
javispedroand since all it matters is cloning Apple,16:44
RST38hjavis: And has.16:44
javispedroI welcome our new .Linux_Store overlods16:44
RST38hjavis: Brought to us by Google!16:44
javispedro:)16:45
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javispedroactually, apple remove Mass Storage support?16:46
RST38hjavis: /opt/google/linux_store/16:46
RST38hnoooooooooooo???16:46
RST38hnot from the desktop OSX, right?16:47
javispedroiphone, I mean16:47
RST38hAh, iphone, yea probably16:48
javispedroSo there you have what Apple "would do" :)16:48
RST38hIf it ever was there of course: as I understand the ARM version of Darwin isn't the same as x86 version16:48
javispedroI am talking about gadget mass storage support16:49
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javispedrodid x86 Darwin ever contain gadget mass storage support?16:49
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RST38hjavis: you mean, not umass "client" but umass "server"? I do not think so16:51
javispedroyeah, server.16:51
javispedroSince they're also a many GiB device, the device OS having "special" filesystem requirements, and the device maker's marketing team having "windows" requeriments.16:53
javispedrosame situation I think :)16:53
RST38hno, since they no use for the "server"16:53
RST38hThere are basically two different types of mass storage devices16:53
RST38hOne is umass, using simplified SCSI command set over USB (two types known)16:54
javispedrothe only one I know.16:54
RST38hSecond is MS "media device" using semiproprietary protocol16:54
javispedroMTP.16:54
RST38hA lot of PMPs expose themselves as MTP16:54
RST38hSome will fall back to umass as well16:54
javispedrobut MTP sucks, Windows does not handle it through the IFS layer but through the SHELL layer.16:54
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RST38hMTP definitely sucks, th eproblem is that a lot of PMPs are ONLY MTP nowadays16:55
javispedrobecause users don't care, and nokia marketing team is wrong here.16:55
javispedrousers care about iTunes/WMP sending songs16:55
RST38hI do not care about itunes16:56
javispedroand they'll use an extra usb pendrive for "documents", even if their beloved ipod has a 16GiB drive16:56
RST38hI do not care about ipod by extension16:56
javispedroMe neither RST, but we're not normal users.16:56
RST38hI would clam myself to be a normal user16:57
RST38hclaim16:57
javispedroWell, I don't. People still glaze at me when I plug my N810 to a computer instead of a pendrive.16:57
RST38hI have got some data of my own, would like to store and view it. What is Abnormal about this? Is it geekish or what?16:57
javispedroRST38h: "normal people" don't treat a gadget as a pendrive unless it has a pendrive shape.16:59
mgedminactually, doesn't MTP have the advantage that both the device and the PC can access the filesystem at the same time?16:59
RST38hIt stores stuff. Hence it is storage.16:59
javispedrothat's the reason some manufacturers here made mp3 players pendrive-shaped.16:59
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javispedromgedmin: true.16:59
javispedrobut windows support for it sucks16:59
RST38hjavis: I thought it was to use them as tampons?17:00
javispedro:)17:00
SamPieterhello nice people of #maemo17:00
zerojayHi.17:00
javispedromgedmin: actually tho, I've not read the spec, so I don't know if the protocol itself has stoopid limitations or not.17:01
javispedroit is a USB Spec now so I'd guess it doesn't.17:01
mgedminlinux support for MTP also sucks17:02
mgedminI know very little about the protocol actually17:02
javispedromgedmin: but fusemtp would be trivial I hope.17:02
* mgedmin prefers sshfs17:02
javispedroon windows, it's handled throught the shell layer, which means mtp devices are exposed like your average Nokia phone.17:02
javispedroin a very simplified way, "as user space extensions to explorer.exe"17:03
javispedrowhich means: no running apps from mtp.17:03
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javispedrofor linux heads, it would be like doing a gnomevfs2 plugin instead of a proper filesystem/fuse.17:03
javispedroso you get that some apps work, some don't read from there, no exec, no swap, etc.17:04
SamPieterI'd like to have my scrollbars on the left side.17:04
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RST38hshort translation: MTP sucks17:04
SamPieterfound a how-to for it, and it works17:04
mgedminSamPieter: check :h 'guioptions'17:04
SamPieterBUT, it does not work for my browser17:04
javispedroRST38h: if the protocol is sane, I don't see why a better implementation couldn't be made.17:04
mgedminyour ... browser?17:04
mgedminwhat browser is that?17:04
mgedminaaaaa I'm not in #vim17:04
SamPieterehm, the one shipped with my N81017:05
RST38hjavis: it would be by now17:05
* mgedmin wants his brain BACK from whoever took it17:05
* javispedro doesn't have vista son can't talk if the situation is any better there17:05
javispedros/son/so17:05
RST38hmgedmin: If it is the Tentacled One, you will have to inspect His droppings for that17:05
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SamPieterI think it's mozilla17:07
SamPieterI tried to change the config file, using about:config17:07
SamPieterbut that does not work.. the scrollbar stays at the right side17:07
* RST38h got 32bit IP in 16bit x86 mode. This cannot be right.17:08
timeless_mbpSamPieter: um17:08
javispedroSamPieter, I think you asked than once here.... did you search talk.maemo.org already?17:08
timeless_mbpso...17:08
timeless_mbpit's possible to do, as i've done it17:08
timeless_mbpyou can't do it from about:Config17:08
timeless_mbpand i don't know how to do it, i've just sorta accidentally done it :)17:08
GeneralAntilleshttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=15449517:09
timeless_mbphrm17:10
GeneralAntillesFirst Google result, may or may not be useful or relevant.17:10
timeless_mbphrm, layout.scrollbar.side = 3 seems to work in camino17:11
timeless_mbpwow17:11
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javispedroanother satisfied customer :)17:14
zerojay:)17:14
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SamPieterWhoopd17:15
timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: wow, it works17:15
SamPieterjavispedro, i might have asked this a few days earlier, but when I asked the question my internet connection went boom17:15
javispedroSamPieter: just like today I guess. did you read GeneralAntilles answer?17:16
GeneralAntillestimeless_mbp, who'da thunk it.17:16
* GeneralAntilles needs an SSD.17:17
javispedrooh17:17
javispedro2.6.31 contains an equivalent of FUSE for character devices that17:18
javispedro...that can be used for proxying OSS sound through ALSA.17:18
RST38hgiven that alsa works of course17:18
fiferboytimeless_mbp: Thanks for the tip on localizing date and time17:19
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fiferboyI even managed to determine if the system is using 12h or 24h time17:19
javispedroI may actually upgrade to that one...17:19
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SamPieterehm no, javispedro... that wasn't me :) and no, I didn't read GeneralAntilles' answer... Can you copy/paste it?17:21
javispedroRST38h: now, the funny thing would be for the OSS API to be standarized *again*17:21
javispedroand PulseAudio implementing /dev/dsp17:21
javispedroall transparently.17:21
RST38hjavis: it has been standardized already, by netbsd17:21
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RST38hjavis: /dev/pcm17:22
ShadowJKbtw the OSS author implemented OSS API with alsa backend ;-)17:22
javispedrobecause I can see devs going to use /dev/dsp if pulseaudio implements it, not having to learn yet another audio api17:22
ShadowJKesd is dead easy, but the lack of audio delay information is a killer17:23
ShadowJKpulseaudio provides it, but it often gets lost or castrated in the alsa->pulseuadio->app chain due to bugs in all the steps throughout :P17:23
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RST38hjavis: I would simply standardize on BSD /dev/pcm, it is a cleaned up version of OSS API17:24
javispedroRST38h I never read about /dev/pcm17:24
javispedroI just know Linux's OSS and OSSv417:24
GeneralAntillesCuracao-N810 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=15449517:24
ShadowJKRST38h, I like sun audio :-)17:24
ShadowJKNetBSD has it17:24
RST38hShadowJK: Yea, sun audio is a subset of dev/pcm17:24
ShadowJKclean, usable, simple17:25
RST38hShadowJK: It is somewhat lacking though, just a littl ebit17:25
javispedroln -s /dev/null /dev/pcm17:25
javispedrolol. google always showing *best* solutions as first results. :)17:25
RST38hShadowJK: On the other hand, I have not looked at changes since SunOS 4.1, so not sure if it is still the same17:25
ShadowJKWell, personally I just want accurate buffer state reporting17:26
RST38hjavis: They figured out mind-reading and are working on mind-control17:26
ShadowJKfor stutterfree video playback with audio sync :P17:26
RST38hShadowJK: Should not be difficult to add, a single ioctl17:26
javispedroShadowJK, isn't tthe pulseaudio guy trying to get that from ALSA?17:27
ShadowJKit exists already in netbsd's sunaudio implementation17:27
RST38hShadowJK: Ah, ok17:27
ShadowJKjavispedro, by the time it goes through alsa filters and through pulseuaudio it's often unusable17:27
ShadowJKAtleast on all of my computers17:28
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ShadowJKThe thing about audio and video is that the sound chip is going to play back at whatever the hell speed it pleases. It doesn't give a rat's ass about YOUR perception of time17:29
RST38hactually hw dma is monotonous17:30
RST38hit is the software layer17:30
ShadowJKno it's not that17:30
ShadowJKthat's not the issue17:31
ShadowJKThe issue is that the sound clock runs at different speed from the system clock, and the video clock17:31
ShadowJKWhen you've got more than one clock, you never know what time it is17:31
Curacao-N810GeneralAntilles: thank you for the link. That's exactly the one I used! Editing the gtkrc file was no problem, once I installed nano. But when I went into the about:config file, and edited this: layout.scrollbar.side=3 nothing happened to the browser's scrollbar location. Any thoughts?17:31
GeneralAntillesRestart?17:31
Curacao-N810heh - Did that17:32
ShadowJKUnless you want to play tear-free 60fps video on a 60Hz screen, you can mostly ignore the video clock, that simplifies things alot, and will save you lots of CPU cycles. Then, you only have to figure out how fast the sound clock thinks "44100hz" (or whatever) is. It will not be 44100Hz as measured by the system clock, because the two clocks are not accurate enough.17:33
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ShadowJKNow, if you want tearfree 60fps video on 60Hz display... Then you're at the mercy of the video clock, and need to figure out how fast the audio is playing, and resample it on the fly to compensate. You get to choose between heavy CPU or crap sound quality there :)17:35
fiferboyCuracao-N810: There is some strange procedure to get it to take affect, like entering it twice in a row17:35
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RST38hShadowJK: Sounds like fun =)17:36
Curacao-N810fiferboy, let me try it17:36
fiferboyhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=2190517:36
fiferboyCuracao-N810: It says to change your value, press ENTER, then press 'Set Preference'17:36
ShadowJKRST38h, yeah so if you can't get accurate information from the soundchip you just have to make shit up and hope there's atleast some lip sync left.17:37
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Stskeepsoh dear god, my inbox is full of /opt :(17:39
RST38hShadowJK: Use silence periods to synchronize :)17:39
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RST38hSts: That is why I have a rule in GMail that directs all maemo-devs traffic straight into Trash =)17:40
RST38hSts: And I can expect it there at my leisure =)17:40
Curacao-N810fiferboy to the rescue!! it worked!17:40
fiferboyCuracao-N810: Good to hear17:40
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* javispedro imagines a not-so-far future where every Maemo packaging has a call to a "stub" maemo-optify for "legacy" reasons, Maemo 6 using unionfs since the very first days.17:42
Stskeepsmaemo 6 will get it's data from the ether17:42
javispedroyeah. Developers will be obsolete.17:43
javispedro:)17:43
javispedroApple is already on the way. I can see them automating the release of iFart apps.17:43
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RST38hMaemo6 will come with a vial of ether that you will be supposed to sniff to unlock the device17:44
RST38hIt is necessary to enable the 3D display effect17:44
javispedroand to use the device at all. Without sniffing -> no device.17:45
ShadowJKSpeaking of video, ffmpeg has found a hardware bug in Cortex A8 :P17:45
RST38hWhat bug? Is it in ARM implementation or in TI adaptation of the above?17:45
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ShadowJKprobably arm17:46
RST38hAnything we need to be aware about?17:46
RST38hURL?17:46
ShadowJKdunno17:46
ShadowJKapparently fixed in later versions of a817:46
ShadowJKirc://...blah I don't understand the syntax :P17:46
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GeneralAntillesLike, is this the old NEON bug from ES2 OMAP3?17:46
ShadowJKNot sure :)17:47
ShadowJKIt was just mentioned in passing after the same guy discovered a bug in AVR (which they confirmed)17:48
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Curacao-N810Thanks again for the help ppl. Bye for now17:49
mfinkletimeless_mbp: is there a guide somewhere with the volume button rules?17:49
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javispedrooh, just found this http://hardwarebug.org/2009/08/05/arm-compiler-shoot-out/#more-15017:50
RST38hwell no news17:52
RST38hRVCT is developed by ARM and thus leads the pack17:52
RST38hit is also the only compiler that uses native 64bit integer implementation17:53
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javispedrowould guess so.17:54
RST38hFremantle uses 2007q3, right?17:54
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javispedroyes17:55
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javispedrowhich, in my drnoksnes test, generates 3-4 fps slower code than 200517:55
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RST38hheh17:56
RST38htime to go 2009q1?17:56
javispedrohere be dragons17:56
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javispedroI am also considering ditching the written-in-ASM CPU interpreter...17:58
RST38hhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/dracula_caged/17:59
javispedrowell, gotta go17:59
RST38hjavis: Do not17:59
RST38hjavis: it saves you 30-60% cpu time17:59
RST38h(if written properly that is)17:59
javispedrowhich I don't know.17:59
RST38hcheck17:59
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RST38hcorrectly written code will try avoiding memory accesses at any cost18:00
RST38hwill keep the whole 65816 state in registers18:00
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javispedroit wins me only a few fps, and the C one is much more hackable18:00
RST38hwhy would you need to hack cpu core?18:01
RST38hOnce it works you let it be18:01
javispedrosa-118:01
javispedroa few macros and the C interpreter is already emulating the SA-118:01
javispedrohere by dragons If I try that in the asm interpreter.18:02
RST38hheh18:02
javispedrowell, really gotta go. bye18:03
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kirmahelsinki folks, come here to open thursday grrr18:12
kirmafree thursday even :)18:12
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m-vokirma, where is it?18:14
suihkulokkim-vo: rotterdam18:14
m-voOk, thanks!18:15
suihkulokkim-vo: if at office, come to my office, I'll leave soon18:15
* m-vo imagines how odd this looks: come to free thursday in helsinki! where is it? rotterdam! :-)18:16
suihkulokkihehe18:16
m-voHmm, don't wait for me.18:16
* RST38h takes American point of view that it is all in one spot called Europe18:16
m-voNot sure yet.18:16
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* Jaffa is now in rant mode on /opt; sorry m-vo ;-)18:19
* m-vo is a bit worried about eMMC performance now, after seeing some real world effects of maemo-optify-deb... :-(18:19
RST38hthe optify thing is totally unnecessary18:20
Jaffam-vo: The last thing needed is more performance problems :(18:20
m-voJaffa, yeah.18:20
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* Jaffa wonders if m-vo is willing to say publicly how only 100MB rootfs space got so far through the development process without being considered an *enormous* problem...18:21
kirmam-vo: rotterdam in kamppi18:21
m-voBut that's quite fundamental: no matter how we get the files on the eMMC, optify, --prefix=/opt, hacking dpkg, they will always be on the eMMC.18:22
m-voJaffa, I don't know.18:22
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m-voCould be that many people here don't take third party apps very seriously.18:23
JaffaGiven a) the success of them on other platforms and b) they're the thing which make Maemo viable; that's potentially worrysome18:23
m-voYeah.18:23
m-voThere is a lot of pressure to keep our OS small, always with the argument that we need space for 3rd party apps.18:24
RST38hm-vo: Why not let packagers manually determine which files will be on eMMC and which will not?18:24
SpeedEvilm-vo: by performance you mean terrible write speeds on fragmented?18:24
GeneralAntillesA lot of the preconceptions and ideas people in Nokia seem to have about the platform are worrisome.18:24
m-voBut even if our OS would only be 10 kiB, you would only have 250 MiB for 3rd party apss.18:24
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RST38hIs the Samsung chip 256MB RAM + 256MB ROM?18:25
* RST38h thought it was 512MB ROM18:25
m-vo256 MB ROM.18:25
Jaffam-vo: And given Qt's likely to be installed on many Maemo 5 devices...18:25
RST38hQt is +5MB18:26
RST38hWith WebKit it probably becomes another +5MB18:26
ShadowJKnand18:26
m-voRST38h, we do that, don't we?18:27
m-voRST38h, well, maemo-optify isn't exactly configurable at this point, but that can be fixed.18:27
RST38hm-vo: I really think optify shoud at least be made optional18:27
JaffaRST38h: Current plan is still that it is18:28
m-voRST38h, it is.18:28
RST38hm-vo: Because if you are doing this manually, it is really easy to decide what to place to / and what not18:28
RST38hCool18:28
m-voRST38h, it is "opt-in", hehe.18:28
RST38hm-vo: I.e. binary and libraries go directly to / but data goes to opt/maemo/share18:28
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RST38hm-vo: Then the problem will be monimized18:28
RST38hminimized18:28
m-voSpeedEvil, no, application startup time.18:29
m-voSo, mmap.18:29
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SpeedEvilm-vo: the internal RAM is xip?18:30
SpeedEvilROM18:30
suihkulokkim-vo, kirma leaving now =)18:31
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m-voOk!  I'll probably not coming, though...18:31
m-vo"I am".18:31
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, I am pretty sure it's nand and not nor with xip ability18:32
suihkulokki:(18:32
m-voShadowJK, correct.18:32
m-voIt just seems to be faster, or better connected.18:32
RST38hSpeed: It is all NAND18:32
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RST38hno NOR there18:32
SpeedEvilI was confused why startup time might be an issue - unless it's simply raw speed18:33
* RST38h also thought it was NOR but was disappointed18:33
RST38hOk, walk time18:33
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ShadowJKm-vo, SD/MMC command overhead is allegedly monstrous. The OneNAND or whatever is probably better in that regard, plus with jffs2 keeping the directory structure and all the metadata in RAM unevictably, and the data itself being compressed...18:33
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ShadowJKOn another emmc related topic, alot of youtube videos of N900 seems to have stuttering flash, worse than on N810, which is pretty curious. Anecdotal reports from people going to Nokia flagship stores seems to be that they encounter this too but that it goes away with reboot. I bet "cat /proc/swaps" and "vmstat 10" would be enlightening and put the blame on swap-on-emmc :)18:35
m-voShadowJK, it's ubifs now, not jffs2.18:35
ShadowJKOh :)18:35
GeneralAntillesThank goodness18:35
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ShadowJKFrankly I didn't expect Nokia, despite creating it, to adopt it so fast ;p18:36
GeneralAntillesAlthough we didn't get a capacity boost to take advantage of UBIFS, unfortunately.18:36
m-voubifs is nice, but be ready to put fsyncs in places that have never seen them before...18:37
ShadowJKAre you saying "don't expect posix behaviour" or are you saying "don't expect ext3 behaviour"? :P18:37
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m-voShadowJK, "don't expect ext3 behavior, expect ext4 behavior"18:38
fralsgod i want it to be mid-october already so i can play with the damn thing :<18:38
* m-vo uses it as his only phone... :-P18:39
m-voreally cool, totally excited about it.18:39
frals... bastard! ;)18:39
ShadowJKm-vo, ah, well, that's okay then :)18:39
fralsim glad i held off upgrading my n95 to a n97.. had it been on sale when i was in the helsinki flagship store i probably wouldve left with one thou :P18:40
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m-voShadowJK, well there are tons of discussions and I think ext4 will put a write-barrier into rename, or something, because people complained too much.18:40
ShadowJKYeah, I think btrfs is doing that too18:40
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m-voMaybe ubifs should, too.18:41
ShadowJKBasically people expect rename on top of existing file to result in either the old file or the new file being on disk intact18:41
m-voWe hd to put a big ugly "sync" into dpkg.  (Not fsync, sync.)18:41
ShadowJKhuh, isn't that close to a proper "bug" in the fs then?18:41
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m-voShadowJK, I would say it's a bug in POSIX or Unix.18:49
m-voWhat you want is a barrier that includes all file operations done by your child processes, but POSIX doesn't have that.18:50
m-voIt only has a barrier that includes everyone.18:51
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mgedminthe /opt thread is looooong...18:52
mgedminwhat's ubifs?18:54
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rm_youwheee porting to maemo 5. funtimes.18:57
ShadowJKmgedmin, jffs2 without the suck18:57
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rm_youjohnx: lol, my google search for some random code thingy just turned up one of your source trees on launchpad :P18:58
* lbt wonders why union FS is sane to consider but /usr_root isn't18:58
lbtsince union FS is likely to be complex18:59
ShadowJKTo me /usr/local sounds saner than moving /usr to /usr_root18:59
lbtand /usr_root puts all core libraries onto the OneNAND (?) which is fast18:59
rm_youis there a page somewhere that literally just has a list of libraries that have namechanged/deprecated between maemo4/maemo5? I figured it'd be in the "porting apps from maemo4 to maemo5" wiki area, but not-so-much >_<19:00
StOrM_NWwhat i have to do to replace the standard maemo bluetooth pairing ... i already create the dbus agent using python ... but when i try to register the agent ... it says AlreadyRegister19:00
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GeneralAntillesrm_you, yes, it's on maemo.org somewhere19:00
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StOrM_NWanyway to get the path of the actual agent ... considering that the Unregister method requires the path of the last agent register19:00
lbtand even allows special case 3rd party installs to put perf-sensitive libraries onto /usr_root19:00
GeneralAntillesShould be listed in one or more of the SDK announcements.19:00
rm_youGeneralAntilles: ridiculously helpful as always, GA :P <319:00
* rm_you sighs19:00
lbtm-vo ^^19:00
rm_youat least i know it's there somewhere :P19:01
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GeneralAntilleshttp://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_2_sdk/19:02
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murrayc_I wish we have SDK updates more often.19:03
Stskeepspre-alpha, pre-alpha2, alpha, beta1, beta2, they're getting better at it :P19:04
Stskeepsso you ended up not being able to get HIM playing well?19:04
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Stskeepsit may simply be because it's running in SDK though, - i can probably find some time to try it within Mer / a real device19:05
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rm_youhrmrmrm19:06
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rm_youso none of those pages are telling me what happened to the package hildon-desktop-dev19:06
rm_you<_<19:06
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Stskeepslibhildondesktop-dev? :P19:07
Stskeepsstatus bar areas are very different now19:07
rm_youyeah i saw that19:07
rm_yougonna require a lot of GUI refactorin g19:07
rm_youbut should come out nicer looking overall i think :)19:07
rm_youand actually, libhildondesktop-dev also was renamed to libhildondesktop1-dev19:08
rm_youbut is a completely seperate library from hildon-desktop-dev in diablo at least...19:08
rm_youi had:19:08
rm_youBuild-Depends: debhelper (>= 4), libhildondesktop1-dev, libhildon1-dev, libgtk2.0-dev, libgconf2-dev, libosso-dev (>= 1), hildon-desktop-dev, hildon-control-panel-dev, x11proto-randr-dev, libxrandr-dev, autoconf, automake, libtool19:08
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rm_youerr, i already fixed the libhildondesktop1-dev19:09
rm_youand these packages DO show up:19:10
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rm_you[sbox-FREMANTLE_X86: ~/adv-backlight] > apt-cache search hildon-desktop19:10
rm_youhildon-desktop - Hildon desktop for Fremantle19:10
rm_youhildon-desktop-dbg - Debug symbols for Hildon desktop19:10
rm_youso what happened to hildon-desktop-dev? T_T19:10
Stskeepsit was never seperate, just an alternate name afaik19:10
rm_you<_< weird19:10
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mgedminoh, planet.maemo.org, why do you have to do this obnoxious link-hijacking thing that you do?19:24
Woolyquick question (I'm sure I'm overlooking something really stupid): the n810 has a screen resolution of 800*480, giving 384,000 total pixels. 16 bits per pixel = 2 bytes per pixel which is 768,000KB for one screen of raw data. However, the screens that I am capturing are double that. Where is my factor of 2 difference coming from?19:24
mgedminhow are you capturing the screens?19:25
lbtSLR?19:25
Woolydirectly from /dev/fb019:25
Stskeepsnice, sponsorship stuff came out :P19:25
m-volbt, I don't think I understand your /usr_root proposal fully, have to read it more carefully.19:25
lbton /   mkdir /usr_root19:25
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mgedminhm, extra framebuffer memory for double-buffering? for offscreen pixmaps?19:26
lbtjust like /usr at the moment19:26
Woolymgedmin: open file, read file, close file, write contents to disk19:26
SpeedEvilWooly: 8 bit R G B pixels - and a stuffing byte?19:26
lbtcopy /usr/* to /usr_root19:26
mgedminif you look at that data as a picture, what do you see?19:26
m-volbt, listening...19:26
SpeedEvilWooly: just because the screen is 16 bit doesn' tmean the framebuffer RAM is19:26
rm_youwtf where was this coming from!? #include <libhildonwm/hd-wm.h>19:26
m-volbt when do you do the copy?19:26
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WoolySpeedEvil: I suppose that's correct19:26
SpeedEvilWooly: I have no idea if this is correct though19:27
Woolyand I thought it would be simple! :D19:27
Woolymgedmin: I cannot look at the raw data as a picture, without reversing the bgra to rgba19:27
Woolyat which point, I see a screenshot19:28
mgedmina 800x480 screenshot, or a 800x960 screenshot?19:28
Stskeepsrm_you: no such thing as wm/hd-wdm anymore afaik19:28
Woolymgedmin: an 800x480 screenshot19:28
rm_yousweet, coming to the summit :P19:28
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mgedminhow are you looking at it then?19:28
* rm_you does a little dance19:28
rm_youhrm, alright19:28
* m-vo is coming to the summit, too.19:29
m-voBring your tomatoes and egss! :-)19:29
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Stskeepsand bacon19:29
luke-jrwhat's the point in fb having A?19:29
m-voHmm, bacon.19:29
luke-jrdoes anyone actually make a display that supports transparency yet?19:29
luke-jrand if they did, would X.org actually support it properly?19:29
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mgedminWooly: btw I don't get that -- cat /dev/fb0> /media/mmc2/shot gives me a file that's 770048 bytes19:30
mgedminslightly more than 800*480*2, but not twice as much19:30
Woolyorly19:30
rm_youthe hildon libraries were always something of a mystery to me as to their actual organization and such, i just was always happy when I got the right ones included :P19:30
Woolymgedmin: I may have overlooked something so blindingly obvious it's unreal19:31
mgedmininteresting size anyway19:31
Woolymgedmin: indeed!19:31
mgedmindoesn't divide by 1600 cleanly19:31
luke-jrwhy would it?19:31
mgedmingood point19:31
Stskeepsrm_you: i think not many people know anymore, hence why they're moving for qt :P19:31
AStormmgedmin: it is 800*480*YUV19:31
mgedmin752 KB19:31
AStormI think.19:31
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AStormit's not RGB19:32
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WoolyAStorm: /dev/fb0 is BGRA19:32
AStormoh19:32
luke-jrStskeeps: and polluting Qt in the same fashon? :p19:32
ShadowJKfb0 isn't yuv19:32
Woolytook me a while to work that out :D19:32
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AStormso it's 32-bit then?19:32
ShadowJKbesides, yuv would be 12 bits per pixel and smaller :P19:32
rm_youStskeeps: heh, I suppose that's a good move... though doesn't Qt build against C++? never saw C bindings19:32
Woolyholay mackerel19:32
AStormwe're not talking about fb duh19:32
luke-jrStskeeps: why does Nokia seem obsessed with requiring non-standard extensions for apps to work?19:32
AStormor, we are ;P19:32
mgedminwe are :)19:33
AStormif it is BGRA that'd be 800*480*419:33
luke-jrrm_you: Qt itself is basically its own programming language19:33
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WoolyI overlooked the fact that when I copy /dev/fb0 I convert from 16bpp to 32bpp19:33
Woolyd'oh!19:33
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ShadowJKlol19:33
AStormit's likely not BGRA, but BGR19:33
Woolywhat a dolt19:33
AStormso *319:33
mgedminAStorm: only if each of the channels were allocated 8 bits19:33
WoolyAStorm: you're right I think19:33
mgedminis it 5-6-5 or 5-5-5?19:33
lbt_m-vo: sorry PSU blew on the firewall!19:33
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rm_youhrmrmrm19:33
Woolyit's 16bpp in a 56519:33
AStormeven funnier ;P19:34
Woolythen I convert to bgra at 32bpp19:34
Woolys/bgra/rgba/19:34
infobotWooly meant: then I convert to rgba at 32bpp19:34
AStormso it's BGRA 16bpp19:34
mgedminbut you were saying that when you read from /dev/fb0, you get back 1.4 megs of data?19:34
AStormwith 8-bit alpha?19:34
mgedminAStorm: no alpha19:34
Woolymgedmin: no alpha19:34
mgedmingaah19:34
mgedminon the input side no alpha19:35
mgedminI suppose it appears when you convert _to_ BGRA19:35
Woolymgedmin: I overlooked the fact that I was converting19:35
mgedminand now everything is clear19:35
AStormmeh meh.19:35
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Woolyokay so /dev/fb0 is 16bpp 565 bgr19:35
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Woolythen my output is 32bpp rgba19:35
Woolywhich gives 1.56MB for a screen, phewft19:35
* glass is glad that the 18bit displaymode was a fad for nokia19:36
luke-jreh?19:36
luke-jrisn't 18-bit what most LCDs are? :p19:36
rm_youhrmrm19:36
mgedminI had a thinkpad with an 18-bit panel, I think19:37
mgedmindesktop wallpaper gradients looked *atrocious*19:37
mgedminaren't most LCDs 24-bit these days?19:37
luke-jryeah, according to Wikipedia, "almost all cheap LCD displays use dithered 18-bit color"19:37
glasshehe19:37
luke-jrmgedmin: only expensive ones?19:37
glassluke-jr: yeah i don't care what it is when actually displayed19:37
mgedmindifference being "most LCDs" versus "most cheap LCDs"19:38
luke-jrglass: no point sending 24-bit if only 18-bit is displayed19:38
mgedminmaybe newer thinkpads use more expensive lcds...19:38
luke-jrbetter save RAM and only work in 18-bit everywhere19:38
glassluke-jr: it was upped from 16, on memory constrained devices19:38
glassluke-jr: on displays where you couldn't see the difference anyways19:38
glassluke-jr: n90/n7019:39
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glassluke-jr: also it fucked my bit routines, so i'm biased19:39
mgedmin:)19:39
mgedminwriting low-level code is fun19:39
mgedminuntil you move to a new platform and discover what "portability" really means19:40
AStormlcd is 12-bit, right?19:40
* mgedmin used to loove embedding 16-bit Intel inline assembly into his Borland Pascal programs19:40
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mgedmin12 bit sounds a bit scary19:40
mgedminI had a phone with 4096 colours, ick19:40
glass12bit was what those routines of mine were first written for19:40
glasss60 1st ed19:41
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AStormmgedmin: not as scary as you'd think19:41
luke-jrI want a 32-bit wearable HUD :D19:42
Woolyhar19:42
AStormwith good dithering it's acceptable19:42
mgedminif you have low standards of acceptability19:42
Woolyluke-jr: with augmented reality engine?19:42
mgedminfor user interface, 4096 is fine19:42
AStorm(and with such high PPI, it's definitely acceptable)19:42
mgedminfor pictures, not19:42
glassyeh19:42
AStormno, it is19:42
luke-jrWooly: that would be a bonus19:42
luke-jrWooly: the alpha channel should be literal transparent though19:42
AStormsince you have a small screen with so many pixels19:42
luke-jrWooly: eg, 0 latency19:42
AStormheavy dithering can be used19:42
Woolyheh19:42
AStormyou get visuals close to 16-bit19:42
AStorm(but no banding artifacts)19:43
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luke-jr32-bit HUD is semi-AR already actually19:43
luke-jradding a camera would make it moreso19:43
mgedminhm, actually, perhaps that 16-bit LCD I complained about was a cheap one that didn't do dithering19:43
mgedminthus when I don't see atrocious banding in gradients, I'm actually looking at 16-bit LCDs that do do dithering19:43
glassanyhow, with 18bit one wasted the memory of extra byte per pixel with no noticiable benefits19:44
luke-jrto get a fully AR system, you would need to manipulate the camera input and override direct visuals entirely19:44
luke-jr*or* get a HUD with hardware accelerated AR via mirrors19:44
glass(and dunno what the display on those actually was, but thats how it was in mem)19:44
luke-jrnot sure the latter acceleration is possible tho19:44
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luke-jrmaybe instead of mirrors, micromanage a water pool19:47
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* luke-jr wonders what kind of field of science the person implementing this would need to have studied19:47
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glasslsd19:47
luke-jr-.-19:48
SpeedEvilluke-jr: It's not so much the escience IMO - it's the engineering.19:48
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: you would need to understand the technicalities for bending light :p19:49
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: Ah - that's pretty simple.19:50
luke-jrfor example, say I wrote an AR engine to turn human faces into cubes19:50
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: Firstly - ignore everything you've seen on star-trek.19:50
SpeedEvilluke-jr: it's a lie.19:50
luke-jrhow would the acceleration manipulate the water/etc to bend such?19:50
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: I haven't seen Star Trek19:51
SpeedEvilluke-jr: also star-wars, and ... Generally anything with beam weaponary is right out.19:51
luke-jr:p19:51
luke-jrI don't see how they're related19:51
SpeedEvilluke-jr: in order to change the direction of a beam of light - you need to put something in the way. This can be plasma - which requires temperatures hotter than the surface of the sun - and UV lasers.19:51
SpeedEvilluke-jr: or more commonly - a lens or prism or something.19:52
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: this also means that anything involving artificial reality where there is nothing between the pupil of your eye, and the visible object is also a lie.19:52
luke-jrSpeedEvil: basically, the software would analyze the camera input, identify human heads, and send the accelerated OpenGL-AR commands to reform the head into a cube shape19:52
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: HUD is worn over the eyes19:53
SpeedEvilluke-jr: you're basically looking in that case - for current technology - at a opaque screen then.19:53
SpeedEvilWith all the reality provided with cameras.19:53
luke-jrSpeedEvil: if I were talking about current tech, it wouldn't be interesting19:53
luke-jrcamera->manipulation->display is slow19:54
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SpeedEvilWell - there is slow and slow.19:54
SpeedEvilCameras are available that go >1000fps19:54
SpeedEvilAnd displays that do several hundred Hz19:54
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SpeedEviltheyu are of course not cheap yet.19:54
luke-jrI want a system that analyzes the camera, but sends the display light movement instructions to use water or whatever to arrange the light as demanded19:54
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luke-jrso what I actually see has no delay19:54
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luke-jrother than the effects possibly being delayed19:55
glass_why not just semi-transparent19:55
luke-jrglass_: this would be on top of transparent19:55
glass_normal displays. because they're available?19:55
SpeedEvilluke-jr: there isn't really an existant technology that would be close to that19:55
luke-jrglass_: the idea is to *manipulate* the light being transparently let through19:55
luke-jrSpeedEvil: again,19:56
rm_youdamn, now I just need to convince ABL to actually show up in the statusbar :P19:56
luke-jrif I were talking about current tech, it wouldn't be interesting19:56
SpeedEvilluke-jr: plus - you'd for optical reasons need a physically large device19:56
glassi'd just prefer electrodes to my head19:56
luke-jrglass: computers add latency19:56
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luke-jrthere will never be a computer that can do this as fast as light :p19:56
SpeedEvilluke-jr: and you don't care - once you get below about 5ms - it doens't matter19:57
glasswhat logical device would choose how to manipulate the light then?19:57
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: tell the cop that when you're in an accident19:57
luke-jrglass: a computer, of course; but the light itself wouldn't be delayed, just the manipulations19:57
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Whereas a manipulated realtime image is of course safe?19:58
* dottedmag .oO(and then GC kicks in and delays everything for a second)19:58
luke-jrSpeedEvil: of course :)19:58
luke-jrdottedmag: LOL19:58
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luke-jrbut worst case with my idea, you have a cubed dog instead of a cubed head19:59
SpeedEvilluke-jr: no.19:59
SpeedEvilluke-jr: you have a car that's moved off to the left 10 degrees so it looks like it's not on an intersecting course19:59
luke-jrcould also have a failsafe that reverts to full transparency w/o manipulations if no updates in N ms19:59
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: if it's that small, you're far off enough that you won't be hitting it in a second20:01
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: 10 degrees is a _large_ angle when it comes to avoiding collisions20:01
SpeedEvilhold your arm out with your fist clenched. 10 degrees is approximately the width of your fist.20:02
luke-jrbut that's a few seconds away, for a car20:03
SpeedEvilIt's perhaps a second if you're closing on the car at 100MPH in an adjacent lane.20:03
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SpeedEvilAlso - you run into fundamental optics limits that are corrolaries to the laws of thermodynamics.20:07
SpeedEvilYou can't magnify an object and have it maintain its brightness20:07
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Stskeepsmm, what was it sponsorship covered again?20:15
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lbttravel/hotel20:15
Stskeepsthursday evening, friday night, saturday night and travel back sunday night?20:15
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lbtyes20:16
lbtAFAIUI20:16
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konttori__good discussion m-vo, RST38h and jaffa.20:17
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konttori__anyway, emmc perf is really not that bad if you read or write large chunks of data.20:17
konttori__it just is not viable for small reads/writes at all.20:17
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ShadowJKlike swap :)20:17
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RST38hkonttori: If I understand things correctly, the issue is with executables and libraries20:18
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RST38hkonttori: that get mmapped and read randomly in page increments20:18
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RST38hNASA scientists have created an anti-gravity field that works at room temperature, which is a big Where's My Back to the Future Skateboard breakthrough. The only problem is that it only works on mice. Mice high as kites, in fact.20:20
ShadowJKOh yeah.. The recent modifications in linux to protect mapped executable pages should help there a bit20:20
ShadowJK(in that pages get thrown out less?)20:20
RST38hShadowJK: I think it is easier to just keep binaries and small libs in /20:21
RST38h"first mouse actually kicked around and started to spin, and without friction, it could spin faster and faster, and we think that made it even more disoriented."20:21
zeevHi, if I have internet access from my mobile provider - 1.1 can I turn N900 into an access point? 1.2 is at a standard feature, or do I have to hack around with it? 2.1 can I connect N900 via USB to my desktop(debian) and use to access internet? 2.2 the same as 1.2?20:21
ShadowJKRST38h, well it should help there too :)20:21
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RST38hzeev: there is no stock hardware for 1.120:22
RST38hzeev: but there is hope that somebody will implement it20:22
zeevstock software? or hardware?20:22
ShadowJKI would atleast expect to see instructions for sharing internet connection out over bluetooth coming soon20:22
RST38hsoftware20:23
zeevand what about 2?20:23
RST38hzeev: yes you can but also with some extra software20:23
wazd_http://gizmodo.com/5356440/nokia-twist-in-all-its-pivoting-glory-heads-to-verizon-for-100 <- new maemo device :D20:24
RST38hwazd: That is Mako20:25
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RST38hwazd: made for AT&T originally20:25
wazd_when I saw Nokla's knock-off I thought "wow, no way these guys made it for themselves" :)20:25
RST38hah wait I am wrong20:25
wazd_I like the concept :)20:25
RST38hit is not mako, it is a new phone, cool concept too20:26
RST38h5-row keyboard!!!20:26
wazd_yeah, on a $100 device :)20:26
wazd_dodge this, n900 :D20:26
zeevand 1.1 was present in N810 right?20:27
rm_yougah, i'm missing something dumb again, i know it...20:28
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wazd_damn, why don't we have such phones for hundred bucks :(20:28
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SpeedEvil'with a two year contract'20:29
wazd_well, $150, ok :D20:29
wazd_SpeedEvil: I don't think that the contract will be near as expensive as iPhone's20:30
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SpeedEvilwazd_: probably not - however unless you know the actual cotnract terms it's hard to work out the price20:31
ShadowJKzeenix, wifi access point? the wifi didn't have AP I think20:32
ShadowJKWell.. and N810 couldn't access mobile cellphone networks20:32
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mfinkleanyone else experiencing slow/broken ssh using openssh on n900?20:34
Stskeepsprobably the usual PSM?20:35
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luke-jrwazd_: does that actually run Maemo?20:35
unixSnobmfinkle: periodically I notice that on the n800.. I did't know ssh was the problem though20:35
mfinkleunixSnob: it seems to connect, but then kinda hangs20:36
luke-jrmfinkle: PSM disabled?20:36
konttori__lcuk2: nice http://blogs.nokia.com/nseries/index.php/2009/09/03/first-creative-application-of-n900/20:37
mfinkleluke-jr: tell me more :)20:37
konttori__cool stuff!20:37
RST38hwazs: The catch is that Verizon has CDMA network20:37
RST38hwazd: and most likely this twist device runs S4020:37
unixSnobpsm=power saving mode20:37
unixSnobI run with PSM disabled.  Usually I get decent performance, but it seems at random times, SSH slows to an absolute crawl20:38
unixSnobI mean, PSM is ENABLED.. sorry20:38
luke-jrRST38h: bah, the 5 rows are useless anyhow. they just added dumb buttons, not a number row20:38
unixSnobAFAIK, PSM only needs to be disabled to connect to Fonera routers20:39
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mfinkledisabling PSM did the trick20:43
mfinkleI could have tested using "intermediate" too20:44
Stskeepswoo, custom HIM: https://bugs.maemo.org/attachment.cgi?id=1356&action=view20:44
* Stskeeps raises a glass to the people who came up with it20:44
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Robot101Stskeeps: :D20:48
Robot101nice!20:48
fralsnice!20:48
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rm_younice, lcuk made that? :P20:50
rm_youis he actually working for nokia now?20:50
mikeosanyone running fremantle under scratchbox 2?  missing rootstrap for beta2 in SDK+, broken repos, impossible to strat gui for both arm and i386..20:52
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RST38hmikeos: I only encountered broken gui20:54
RST38hmikeos: apparently armel bootstrap does not run under emulator, in neither scratchbox20:54
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RST38hhad to add the sdk repo by hand20:55
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mikeosRST38h: i added the repo by hand, but it doesn't start. Perhaps more needs to be done than coyping the rootstrap into ~/.maemo/.....20:55
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RST38hit will not start as I said20:56
RST38harmel bootstrap will not run gui20:56
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RST38hsame in sb120:56
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wazd_luke-jr: ofcourse not :D20:56
mikeosRST38h: i did not succeed to hack the rootstrap index file by hand; the maemo-sdk controlling script just does not see it20:56
mikeoswith diablo the gui runs ok under both i386 and armel20:57
PenStandHi guys. Since Maemo and Android are based on Linux, is it possible to install Maemo on an Android device or Android on a Maemo device like N900?20:57
luke-jrPenStand: Android doesn't use a standard Linux kernel20:58
RST38handroid on maemo is possible but not the vice versa20:58
luke-jrrather, it uses a fork20:58
luke-jrRST38h: Maemo can be ported, no?20:58
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luke-jroh, right20:58
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PenStandRST38h: why not?20:59
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luke-jrPenStand: Maemo isn't open20:59
PenStandnot open source?!!!20:59
luke-jrPenStand: if you did manage to run it, it would probably violate the EULA20:59
PenStand=-O20:59
luke-jror copyright20:59
RST38hmaemo is specific to nokia hardware20:59
luke-jrPenStand: bits and pieces are20:59
PenStand=-O=-O=-O=-O=-O20:59
luke-jrbut not as a whole20:59
luke-jrat least not Maemo 420:59
luke-jrdunno about 520:59
RST38handroid is not specific to any particular hardware hence it can be ported20:59
PenStandI'm shocked!21:00
rm_youyeah, we're pushing constantly to get more and more of it open, but there are little bits and pieces here and there that are closed (and a lot of them are critical... <_<)21:00
zerojayUgh21:00
RST38hin short, you will have to sell your G1 and buy N90021:00
luke-jrPenStand: summary, this is why I don't plan to buy a N900 :p21:00
PenStandbut Maemo is based on Debian21:00
mikeosRST38h: did you modify the file /opt/maemo/tools/maemo-sdk/index.rootstraps   ?21:00
luke-jruntil it's usable with free software21:00
PenStandwhich is open source21:00
luke-jrPenStand: yes21:01
MyrttiPenStand: and...?21:01
luke-jrPenStand: but Debian as a whole is not GPL-221:01
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luke-jrand even if it were, adding things is still not protected21:01
Myrttiprecompiled close source kernel modules...21:01
Myrttiever heard?21:01
rm_youMyrtti: you going to the summit?21:01
PenStandso as I know all parties that want to use an open source code should use them in an open source manner21:01
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luke-jrMyrtti: those are illegal21:01
PenStandi.e Maemo MUST be open source21:01
luke-jrPenStand: should != must21:01
Myrttiluke-jr: in what jurisdiction ;-)21:01
luke-jrMyrtti: any with copyright21:02
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PenStandluke-jr:yeah21:02
luke-jrMyrtti: kernel modules are derived works in Linux21:02
PenStandluke-jr: I meant to use MUST21:02
luke-jrPenStand: GPL-2 only extends to stuff that links at most21:02
luke-jrand most of Debian isn't GPL-221:02
Myrttiluke-jr: FWIW, none of the open source licences have been tested in Finnish juridiciary trials21:02
Myrttithen again, IANAL21:03
luke-jrMyrtti: Finland doesn't have copyright law?21:03
rm_youMyrtti: summit? :P21:03
luke-jrlicenses are contracts, which are pretty universal21:03
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luke-jrMyrtti: if they don't agree to the license/contract terms, they cannot distribute Linux at all21:04
Myrttirm_you: attending a wedding in Littlehampton :-/21:04
unixSnobfolks are confusing criminal law with civil law21:04
PenStandI won't use or support Maemo as it's not open source.21:04
rm_youah :/21:04
luke-jrunixSnob: nobody brought up criminal law at all21:04
PenStandI'll just support Android21:04
rm_youwell, have fun with that i guess :)21:04
unixSnobviolating a EULA is not criminal, it's civil21:04
luke-jrPenStand: Android isn't either I hear21:04
luke-jrPenStand: at least not in practic21:04
luke-jrunixSnob: illegal doesn't mean criminal21:04
PenStandbut more open than Maemo21:04
unixSnobluke-jr: someone said it was "illegal" to use an OS not permitted in the tos21:04
luke-jrPenStand: personally I run Gentoo21:04
luke-jrunixSnob: Illegal to copy closed Maemo bits to a non-Nokia device, yes.21:05
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PenStandluke-jr: yeah I heard there are some closed areas in Android but very few21:05
wazd_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqtgfjkB6Pg <- Big Lebowski is a genius movie :D21:05
luke-jrunixSnob: but nobody said anything about criminal law21:05
* Stskeeps gets out the popcorn21:05
luke-jr"illegal" != "criminal"21:05
luke-jrviolations of any law are illegal21:05
PenStandluke-jr: I think those closed areas related to the hardware.21:05
luke-jrPenStand: which is the important parts21:06
luke-jrI'd rather have open hardware access and closed UI21:06
rm_youbbl21:06
luke-jrthan open UI and closed hardware access21:06
unixSnobluke-jr: contracts are not law.  You can violate them.  it's not illegal21:06
luke-jrthe UI can be replaced21:06
MyrttiUse Freerunner then21:06
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MyrttiPenStand: do you have a freerunner?21:06
Myrttino?21:06
gnutonHi21:06
luke-jrunixSnob: copyright is law21:06
PenStandno21:06
unixSnobsure, but violating EULA is not violating *copyright*21:07
PenStandMyrtti: freerunner is too old21:07
luke-jrcontracts are founded upon law21:07
MyrttiPenStand: but you wanted open source ;-)21:07
luke-jrunixSnob: in this case, it's more blanket copyright than EULA21:07
mikeosPenStand: i don't think so..one is jailed in dalvik vm21:07
unixSnobluke-jr: nokia can write whatever they want in the contract -- that doesn't make it law, and violations do not necessarily violate copyright law21:07
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PenStandMyrtti: I want an open source mobile OS not OP hardware21:08
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luke-jrunixSnob: Nokia doesn't grant you permission to copy their closed software. Doing so anyway is violation of copyright law.21:08
unixSnobluke-jr: you can put in a EULA that users cannot take a shit while using the maemo.. doesn't mean users are breaking any laws by doing so21:08
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MyrttiPenStand: butr if you don't have op hardware, you might not be able to have open source mobile os21:08
luke-jrOP?21:08
MyrttiPenStand: freerunner, which you say is too old, doesn't include 3G, because there hasn't been a 3G chip, that would have open source drivers21:09
PenStandMyrtti: luke-jr: (09:09:06 PM) jasta: PenStand: Google proprietary applications and device-specific drivers are closed source, but these are not Android.21:09
unixSnobAnd when it comes to copying for personal use, the fair use doctrine is a very effective defense21:09
unixSnobluke-jr: it's the redistribution following the copying where copyright law becomes effective21:09
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luke-jrPenStand: the drivers are the most important component for freedom21:10
PenStandluke-jr: (09:09:31 PM) jasta: the lion's shar eof code, however, including the platform, kernel, user-space, framework libraries, core apps, etc are all open source21:10
luke-jrPenStand: most of that is irrelevant21:11
luke-jrthe drivers are the key component21:11
Myrttianyway, good luck in your endeavours21:11
luke-jreverything can be replaced except drivers21:11
PenStandluke-jr: why would I need an open source drivers? I can do what ever I want with the hardware if the OS supports them. There are interfaces in the OS that communicates with the hardware.21:11
luke-jrtherefore, drivers are the primary most important component to have code for21:12
PenStandwhy?21:12
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luke-jrbecause everything else can be replaced21:12
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Myrtti"do what ever I want with the hardware if the OS supports"21:13
Myrttiexcuse me, but since when have drivers NOT been part of the OS?21:13
unixSnobThere's a project out there to replace maemos drivers -- resulting in a fully open OS that's similar to maemo21:13
luke-jrunixSnob: there is?21:14
derfMyrtti: Since Linux became a microkernel.21:14
luke-jrunixSnob: the only things left are BME and gpsdriver, which AFAIK there's just a few of us loose knit in here trying to reverse engineer21:14
luke-jrderf: never21:14
luke-jrderf: Linux is a monolithic blob21:14
unixSnobluke-jr: yeah, I'm trying to recall the name21:14
Myrttiif the os can't handle the hardware, what good is it then?21:15
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MyrttiI must be getting something wrong21:15
unixSnobmamona.. that's what it's called21:15
unixSnobhttp://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/21:16
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vasily_pupkinhi21:16
vasily_pupkinshow plz ls -l /etc/network/if-up.d21:16
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zerojayShow boobs plz21:17
Myrttizerojay: gtfo?21:18
zerojayLol21:18
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zerojayI wasn't refering to you even.21:18
luke-jrunixSnob: read it21:18
zerojayHehe21:18
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luke-jrunixSnob: their idea of "progress" is begging Nokia21:18
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luke-jrhttp://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/wiki/FAQ#WhyIneedproprietarysoftwaretogetmydevicefullyworkingwithMamona21:19
Myrttizerojay: it just happens to make me feel so welcome here21:19
zerojayI'm sorry.. I was just making a joke that "how dmesg" or "show df -h" is like the unix geek's version of that. No offence was intended towards you or other females in any way.21:20
zerojaySo i'm sorry.21:20
unixSnobbummer21:20
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Myrttizerojay: thank you :-)21:21
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gnutonHow can I set up filters in HildonFileChooserDialog?21:25
Myrttivasily_pupkin: define your question a bit more? would any ls -l do?21:25
* AStorm thinks this N900 youtube ad/video should be emitted in TV21:25
Stskeepsthr21:25
Stskeepse maemo.nokia.com one should21:26
vasily_pupkinI have some strange error21:26
vasily_pupkini couldn't get network info with dhcp21:26
AStormStskeeps: maybe, I'll check21:26
AStormmight be the same ;>21:26
vasily_pupkinbut if I manually start udhcpc all ok O_o21:26
vasily_pupkinmay be i erase something from if-up.d21:26
* unixSnob thinks it should be stressed that the n900 only supports one sim chip21:27
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Myrttivasily_pupkin: on which platform?21:27
luke-jrunixSnob: as opposed to two?21:27
ShadowJKluke-jr, how goes bme reversing?21:27
luke-jrShadowJK: same place as a month ago21:28
unixSnobluke-jr: yeah, or 3 or 4.  Certainly one is not enough21:28
vasily_pupkindiablo21:28
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luke-jrunixSnob: why not?21:28
luke-jrit only has 1 radio21:28
ShadowJKluke-jr, nowhere? :)21:28
luke-jrShadowJK: -.-21:28
MyrttiunixSnob: why would it need to be specifically stressed - none of nokia phones have ever had dual sim21:28
MyrttiunixSnob: most phones don't have dual sim21:29
unixSnobluke-jr: how many people want to carry a business and personal phone, plus another phone for a data account, and another for crossing borders?21:29
MyrttiunixSnob: how many people have more than one phone?21:29
ShadowJKthere was one nokia that you could get battery with dualsim adapter21:29
Myrttior phone number?21:29
AStormStskeeps: I'm having problems playing it (flash works well, so..)21:29
MyrttiShadowJK: sure, *UNOFFICIAL*21:29
AStormdo you have a link w/o the flash movie player?21:29
unixSnobMyrtti: people don't want business and personal numbers to be the same21:29
MyrttiunixSnob: I wouldn't want to pay for a personal phone number if I'd have a work phone21:30
jaskai remember a friend having some unreleased nokia with two sims in late 90s..21:30
unixSnobMyrtti: separate control over professional and personal contacts is fundamental21:30
AStormStskeeps: looks like video.citum.com is slow/dead21:30
MyrttiunixSnob: most phones don't have it. it would need special attention if they'd HAVE two21:30
* ShadowJK has 5 sim cards on the same account&number :-)21:30
unixSnobMyrtti: it's not a good idea to mix business and personal expenses either21:30
MyrttiunixSnob: since when? If I had a work phone, I'd have to pay taxes for having it21:31
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MyrttiunixSnob: anyway21:31
MyrttiunixSnob: personal preferences21:31
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MyrttiI don't think it needs special attention that they have only one sim slot21:31
unixSnobShadowJK: are all 5 accounts on standby concurrently?21:31
ShadowJKit's one account21:32
unixSnobShadowJK: are all 5 numbers on standby concurrently?21:32
ShadowJKif someone calls my number, all 5 ring21:32
AStormneat eh?21:32
* ShadowJK doesnt actually use all 521:32
AStormmy operator doesn't support it unfortunately... at least I'd have to ask specifically21:32
unixSnob5 different ring tones from one device?21:32
ShadowJKi ordered the max because they were about to discontinue selling it to new21:33
AStormunixSnob: nah, 5 devices?21:33
luke-jrunixSnob: why would you need 1 SIM per use?21:33
AStorm5 devices, 5 SIM cards, 1 number, 1 account21:33
unixSnobluke-jr: different providers have different crypto schemes, some are not hackable21:33
AStorma funny setup21:33
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unixSnobluke-jr: only some providers can be cloned onto a multisim -- and then you still have the problem of only one number being active at a time21:34
ShadowJKastorm: it's nice because I can for example have the same, single data package in both laptop and cellhpone21:34
ShadowJKinstead of subscribing to two data packages21:34
luke-jrunixSnob: I wouldn't know. I've never even seen a SIM card.21:34
ShadowJKor swapping sims all the time21:34
AStormit'll be pointless for me with N900...21:34
unixSnobluke-jr: those multinumber sims just make it so you don't have to physically swap the sim chip.. it's still like you just have one in at a time21:34
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chxwish fido would give me two sim card21:35
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chxsthey dont21:35
luke-jrunixSnob: couldn't you just load the SIM into a file? :)21:35
AStormsince N900 is better than all modems available here21:35
AStorm(they do HSPA 7.2/x)21:35
AStorm(not that I'd ever see this kind of bandwidth ;p)21:36
unixSnobluke-jr: no phones are that sophisticated, and there's still the up front effort of cloning (which is only possible with some providers).  It's better just to have multiple sims21:36
unixSnobAStorm: the mifi lasts 4 hours continuously.. does the n900 last that long?21:37
AStormhow would I know?21:37
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AStormI don't have it (yet)21:37
ShadowJKdepends what you do21:38
unixSnobi don't have a mifi either... just read reviews21:38
AStormI was thinking about USB connection21:38
AStormusing N900 as a modem21:38
AStormit should last at least as much though21:38
wazd_http://i066.radikal.ru/0909/49/3170e38618c4.png <- check it out :)21:38
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unixSnobAStorm: since it has a display, I would expect it to last under 4 hrs (mifi doesn't power a display)21:39
AStormno.21:39
AStormdon't underestimate the energy efficiency of new diodes21:39
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AStormStskeeps: so, where else can I get that "Introducing Maemo 5" movie?21:40
aSIMULAtorcool wazd21:40
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aSIMULAtorare you using impact as a font? i was going to suggest maybe using the abn amro font on the ajax jerseys :P21:40
ShadowJKn900 as modem would be with screen off though21:40
AStormtrue21:40
unixSnobAStorm: so the cost of powering a color LCD is negligable?  I don't believe that.  The epaper books would die immediately21:40
AStormand connected via USB, so charging ;P21:40
wazd_aSIMULAtor: are they stolen?)21:41
AStormunixSnob: not negligible, but not high either21:41
AStorm1W of LCD light is a lot of light21:41
AStorm*LED light21:41
aSIMULAtorhttp://www.quickproducts.nl/images/Ajax%20T-shirt%20Amsterdam%20XXX.jpg21:41
AStormand you can easily live with much less21:41
SpeedEvilAStorm: however21:42
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AStormLCD itself is very small21:42
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ShadowJKit's less than 1W in n810 iirc21:42
AStorm*uses very little power21:42
SpeedEvilAStorm: theoretically the best that can come out of a RGB is 1/3 * 1/2 = 1/6th of the input light21:42
AStormSpeedEvil: barring recent improvements in filters.21:42
SpeedEvil(and it's not that good)21:42
wazd_aSIMULAtor: I think impact is nice :) free and it dits :)21:42
SpeedEvilAStorm: err - no21:42
wazd_fits*21:42
zerojayComic sans. Lol21:43
AStormerr, yes. you can sacrifice saturation for more light as well21:43
SpeedEvilAStorm: 1/2 - polarisation losses. 2/3 due to a red photon hitting a green or blue filter21:43
* zerojay runs21:43
AStormSpeedEvil: polarisation losses are compensated by generating polarised light21:43
AStormhaha.21:43
AStorm;P21:43
SpeedEvilAStorm: there are unfortunately no polarised LEDs or CCFL tubes21:43
AStorm(or partially polarised)21:43
AStormsure there are21:44
AStormguess what's used for CD drives21:44
SpeedEvilLasers.21:44
AStormyeah.21:44
SpeedEvilLasers are polarised inherently.21:44
AStormand lasers emit what kind of light?21:44
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AStormcorrect.21:44
SpeedEvilHowever - LEDs are not LASERs.21:44
AStormthere are laser LEDs.21:45
SpeedEvilAnd are not polarised to any significant degree.21:45
SpeedEvilAStorm: Sure there are. They aren't used in backlights.21:45
AStormnot sure if there are any white laser LEDs though ;>21:45
aSIMULAtorthe only problem with the red text is that it's probably going to be very small on teh shirt, the readability won't be that great, unless you're cool with people stopping you and having alook at your back for a few mins :P21:45
AStormusually.21:45
SpeedEvilYour average white - or even coloured - LED - is not polarised.21:45
aSIMULAtoror if that's the front part of the shirt, i'd be like hey dude stop staring at my titties21:45
zerojayYou mean dmesg? Lol21:46
wazd_aSIMULAtor: that's not for ts btw, that's a sticker :)21:46
AStormyou could force a led to generate more coherent light21:46
SpeedEvilaSIMULAtor: If you wear small text - you give a valid excuse!21:46
AStormand use correct mirror21:46
AStormto keep polarisation21:46
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aSIMULAtorsorry i'm not up to date with some things :) hehe21:46
AStorm(or drop mirrors altogether and use many tiny LEDs)21:46
SpeedEvilAStorm: Sure - however - no current power LEDs produced polarised light - and there is many millions going into this field of research.21:47
AStorm(but then, OLED might be a better pick)21:47
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AStormwho said about one or two power leds21:47
AStormI'm saying drop 256 tiny LEDs21:47
SpeedEvilAStorm: Point to one source of efficient polarised light generating LED21:47
AStormChecking...21:48
SpeedEvilThere are devices that emit polarised light.21:48
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SpeedEvilThey are not as efficient as simply living with the 50% loss from the most efficient white sources21:48
AStormhttp://www.physorg.com/news123782366.html21:48
aSIMULAtorwaz: yeah i definitely like the amsterdam flag concept more than that circular thingamabob21:48
AStormSpeedEvil: you lose.21:48
SpeedEvilBy a _long_ margin21:48
SpeedEvilAStorm: that is not a source.21:48
AStormyeah, as if you could buy them in a shop21:49
AStormthat tech is patented21:49
AStormand likely held secure by whoever makes them21:49
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SpeedEvilAStorm: that is someone who has made an LED of unknown efficiency, unknown polararisation amount, unknown cost, unknown lifespan, and unknown yield.21:49
AStormSpeedEvil: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/2009004046521:50
AStormhave fun reading the patent21:50
SpeedEvilI don't care about patents.21:50
AStorm...21:51
SpeedEvilI care about what is actually shipping from lumileds, cree, seoul, ...21:51
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AStormSpeedEvil: Orled is using such leds in electron microscopes21:51
SpeedEvilIf anyone had a largely polarised efficient LED - they'd be shouting it from the rooftops.21:51
AndrewFBlackJust posted some screenshots of a new theme I'm working on for Mer/Maemo21:51
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AStormso SOMEONE is producing them21:51
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AStormI just can't find who by easy googling21:51
SpeedEvilAStorm: 'someone is producting them' does not mean they are available in volume, or are efficient, or are suitable for displays.21:52
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AStormif they are suitable for normal lighting, they are likely suitable for displays21:52
SpeedEvilAStorm: And again - where are the orderable parts. Or even anyone stating 'our new LCD uses half the backlight power as it uses magic LEDs'21:53
AStorm...21:53
AStormyeah yeah. if I could find part numbers...21:53
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SpeedEvilAStorm: If you can't - it's also possible the technology doesn't exist commercially yet.21:54
AStormit is, as I said it's in specialist use21:55
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AStormboth that microscope and certain hair transplant apparatus ;P21:55
AStormbut maybe yields are low or something21:55
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SpeedEvilhair transplants will use red laser diodes - these are very, very cheap, and polarised.21:56
AStormtrue21:56
SpeedEvil(but not actually very efficient)21:56
AStormbut that one uses white light21:56
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AStorm(which is weird in its own right)21:57
ShadowJKwait for the patents to expire and someone will figure out how to make them cheaply21:57
AStormanyway, let's drop the topic for now21:57
AStormyeah, the patent is new, 200521:57
SpeedEvilShadowJK: If it's possible at all. Current white LEDs are about 3 times better than making the same LEDs from individual colour LEDs - due to use of a phosphor from blue LEDs. Phosphors inherently generate non-polarised light21:58
AStormsome phosphors do generate polarized light21:58
AStormbut 90 deg. out of phase, so you'd need to correct that21:59
AStormnot impossible :)21:59
SpeedEvilerr - what?22:00
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ShadowJKlet's just put a couple of Cree MC-E diodes in there. Should shine quite nicely at full power.22:01
SpeedEvilAnyway - this is completely off-topic22:01
SpeedEvilShadowJK: yeah - they are coming out with even shinier ones soon.22:01
SpeedEvilShadowJK: 140lm/W - insane.22:01
SpeedEvil(compared to the 20 - only a few years ago)22:01
AStormyeah.22:01
* ShadowJK has 1.5yr old aaa light that pumps out 100lm22:02
AStormSpeedEvil: the trick with that phosphor is that if you shine at it polarized light, it starts shining polarized 90 deg. out of phase, but at diff. wavelength22:02
RST38hso what is the efficiency?22:02
wazd_http://s16.radikal.ru/i190/0909/fa/709f9ac844ef.png :D22:02
SpeedEvilRST38h: that's actually a _horrible_ question22:02
ShadowJKlol22:02
Stskeepswazd_: hah22:02
SpeedEvilRST38h: Lighting units are the most confusing mess ever.22:03
aSIMULAtorrofflez22:03
RST38hwazd: you should start selling those =)22:03
SpeedEvilRST38h: but something between 20 and 25%ish22:03
RST38hso before that ot was 3%?22:03
RST38hs/ot/it22:03
SpeedEvilRST38h: more like 5ish22:03
ShadowJKand with that 120lm/Watt thing, if you feed it 1watt you probably wont get 120lm. the efficiency is calculated at 50mA or something :)22:04
RST38hterrible22:04
SpeedEvilRST38h: ShadowJK: nope22:04
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ShadowJKbut efficiency does decrease with larger currents :)22:04
SpeedEvilShadowJK: at 50mA - it gets moderately more efficient - the efficiency is rated at 350mA22:04
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RST38hso, luminiscent tubes are still the only efficient solution?22:05
SpeedEvilRST38h: nope.22:05
RST38h?22:05
wazd_RST38h: well, I give away stuff, as usual :)22:05
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SpeedEvilRST38h: it goes roughly: 5lm/W - torchbulbs, 12lm/W - 'ordinary' bulbs, 15lm/W - halogens, 60lm/W compact flourescant22:06
RST38hwazd: then somebody should start selling those =)22:06
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SpeedEvilRST38h: 100lm/W long tube fluourescants - and 20-140lm/W LEDs22:06
RST38hSpeed: but what about power being used?22:06
SpeedEvilRST38h: a lumen - 1lm - is a unit of brightness22:06
AStormLEDs are best there... they scale to low powers22:07
AStorm(fewest W)22:07
SpeedEvilRST38h: so 1lm/W is a light source that produces a light output to 1/4pi ths of  the light output of a standard candle - given a 1W power input.22:07
SpeedEviloops22:08
SpeedEvilno - that's right22:08
AStormSpeedEvil: well, cd unit has been redefined in terms of a radioactive source, but w/e22:08
AStormcd = candle22:08
SpeedEvilyes - however most poeple know what a candle looks like, and not a square inch of platinum at temperature whatever22:08
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Stskeepswb qwerty12_N81022:09
AStorm:)22:09
qwerty12_N810Thank you, Stskeeps. I've got a big grin on me face...22:09
Stskeepsyou got laid on your first day of college?22:09
Stskeeps:P22:09
wazd_qwerty12_N810: http://s16.radikal.ru/i190/0909/fa/709f9ac844ef.png :)22:09
qwerty12_N810wazd_: rofl :D22:10
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: No, I went to collect some, er, packages22:10
SpeedEvilWere they big packages?22:10
AStormso, anyone has that "Introducing Maemo 5" movie other than at video.foonotworking.com via flash player?22:11
qwerty12_N810No, rather small. But, you know, as they say: "Good things come in small packages..."22:11
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zerojayIndeed.22:12
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StskeepsAStorm: it's on youtube too i think22:13
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AStormStskeeps: linky? I tried to find it as well22:20
Stskeepsi don't have flash on this machine right now..22:20
ShadowJKuser nokiaconversations on youtube22:21
ShadowJKview all videos22:21
ShadowJKlook for the 3 oldest22:21
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Captain_Picardhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxZG0T1j2s&feature=channel_page A NEW maemo development device22:24
Captain_Picardlook =)22:24
Captain_Picardat 0:25 sec22:24
Stskeepsis it in a blue-ish box or something? :P22:24
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Captain_Picardnope22:25
Captain_Picardits black22:25
Stskeepsor black22:26
Stskeepsprobably just devs really22:26
AStormShadowJK: nah, that's Nokia Dev Summit22:26
ShadowJK.22:27
AStormShadowJK: link please, or?22:27
ShadowJKthat's how I'd find it22:28
ShadowJKnot on the frontpage of thst user22:28
AStorm...22:28
ShadowJKbut in the videos before22:28
AStormI picked show all22:28
AStormthere's 308 of them22:28
AStormor was it 30622:28
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Captain_Picardhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9bzSeuHDyo&feature=channel_page who is she?22:30
Captain_Picarddeveloper for maemo?22:30
aSIMULAtorlol22:32
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zerojayYeah, she is.22:32
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zerojayShe worked on media player. :k22:33
zerojayLol22:33
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ShadowJKastorm: second page, first row, last 3 columns22:33
ShadowJKit's probably the middle one22:33
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* ShadowJK doesnt have enough free ram to load flash22:33
zerojayShe's Nokia's singer.. She can sing in like 8 languages or something.22:33
zerojayGoogle is your friend.22:34
AStormMaemo 5 user interface?22:34
ShadowJKyeah22:34
AStormheh22:34
ShadowJKif that was what you were looking for, ive already forgotten22:34
AStormI prefer the Nokia N900 one22:34
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aSIMULAtorthere are tons of hot chicks who design the maemo 5 ui22:35
ShadowJKthe one with grum is my favourite :)22:35
aSIMULAtorlike totally hot22:35
aSIMULAtorthe wimmin of maemo22:35
aSIMULAtor:P22:35
Captain_Picardzerojay: can she sing in binary ?22:35
aSIMULAtorjk22:35
AStormalbeith both are good22:35
Captain_Picardnot only symbian?22:35
AStorm*-h22:35
ShadowJKbut the other one is available in HD22:35
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wazd_ok, app-list selection method - top 10 from each cathegory22:42
wazd_is it fair?)22:42
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MikycolHola23:51
MikycolHi23:51
MikycolCiao23:51
merkuralex_lol?23:51
Mikycol:)23:51
MikycolI ask, a question for you obvious, but I can not find anywhere?23:52
zerojayAsk away.23:53
merkuralex_never ask if you can ask... just ask :D23:53
merkuralex_i love how confusing that sounds...23:53
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MikycolRight23:54
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slonopotamusOr left?23:56
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MikycolN900 will support microSDXC?23:58
SpeedEvilyes23:59
javispedroMikycol: no, unless you can outbribe the SD standards group23:59

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