| * timeless_mbp takes a moment to cry | 00:00 | |
| timeless_mbp | so... a standard rule for finding bugs | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| timeless_mbp | "look for things that move" | 00:00 |
| timeless_mbp | if they can move, they can probably break | 00:00 |
| AStorm | hehehehe? | 00:00 |
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| RST38h | <sleep> | 00:01 |
| ShadowJK | so what happens if you try move a widget offscreen | 00:02 |
| roope | shadowjk: the UI moves to the next screen, along with the widget. | 00:02 |
| ShadowJK | I guess it must be some other moving thing then :) | 00:02 |
| Khertan | <ShadowJK> What did they say the last time you sent it in for the same reason? <<< like in bugs maemo : WON'T FIX ... WORK FOR ME ... they flash it | 00:03 |
| Khertan | and it s work s after | 00:03 |
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| ShadowJK | hm | 00:03 |
| Khertan | but i suspect an other reason here | 00:04 |
| Khertan | anyway i ll flash it tomorrow and see the result with nothing else than the flash | 00:04 |
| woglinde | he khertan | 00:06 |
| Khertan | yep ? | 00:06 |
| woglinde | khertan I am using now springpython and twisted too in my app | 00:06 |
| Khertan | springpython and twisted ... hum ... i didn't use it :) | 00:07 |
| Khertan | ah it s a security tools | 00:08 |
| Khertan | ok :) | 00:08 |
| woglinde | nope | 00:08 |
| woglinde | with twisted you can make easy netservers | 00:08 |
| woglinde | and with springpython you have nice levels of abstractions | 00:08 |
| woglinde | but I am only using it for remote options now | 00:09 |
| woglinde | args s/now/only | 00:09 |
| Khertan | i really need to go to sleep ... | 00:09 |
| Khertan | bye :) | 00:09 |
| Khertan | see you later : | 00:10 |
| Khertan | :) | 00:10 |
| woglinde | sleep well | 00:10 |
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| lcuk | javispedro, do you have rights to upload to extras-devel | 00:17 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ah, finally, *Current availability | 00:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-n900/features | 00:22 |
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| simula | the second that anyone sees it hit the nokia.usa store... please report to the channel | 00:24 |
| lcuk | qwerty12_N810, woglinde am i over trusting with packaging | 00:24 |
| lcuk | or do i believe the community will pull round and help | 00:24 |
| simula | it has already hit the german store and a few folks have ordered it, with a reported delivery date of Oct 1st | 00:24 |
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| kirma | rather unofficial information from finnish nokia web shop is that they would start delivering around mid-october here | 00:25 |
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| AStorm | simula: hmmhmmhmm | 00:26 |
| AStorm | let me check... | 00:26 |
| * zerojay gets Mantracker to hunt down qole's house. | 00:27 | |
| kirma | this information wasn't actually on the shop pages for .fi, but posted on non-nokia phone enthusiast forum by web shop admins | 00:27 |
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| AStorm | 599 euro, ouch | 00:28 |
| AStorm | the q is about keyboard layout | 00:29 |
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| AStorm | whether it's the same standard qwerty as shown on the pic | 00:30 |
| lcuk | wazd | 00:30 |
| mikkov_ | it has dedicated öäå | 00:30 |
| lcuk | wazd_, even | 00:30 |
| AStorm | mikkov_: but are the arrows as shown? | 00:30 |
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| kirma | no | 00:31 |
| AStorm | or did they bastardize the keyboard making it useless? :P | 00:31 |
| AStorm | ok, so it is useless ;p | 00:31 |
| AStorm | now, where in EU can I get pure QWERTY n900... | 00:31 |
| mikkov_ | AStorm: two of the arrow keys used | 00:31 |
| kirma | look at the italian video - there you can see the "european" layout, which varies from region to region a bit though | 00:31 |
| lcuk | the n900 looks so slick | 00:31 |
| AStorm | kirma: linky? | 00:32 |
| kirma | british version would be "pure" I guess | 00:32 |
| AStorm | (w/ tinyurl) | 00:32 |
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| kirma | http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/01/video-nokia-n900-put-through-its-paces-in-italian/ | 00:32 |
| AStorm | ffs... tinyurl | 00:32 |
| AStorm | I have to type it into n810 | 00:32 |
| kirma | something like ~30 seconds in the beginning | 00:32 |
| AStorm | (because I don't have a real web browser with flash or mplayer here yet) | 00:33 |
| kirma | http://tinyurl.com/n8y63z | 00:33 |
| wazd_ | lcuk: hm? | 00:35 |
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| AStorm | indeed | 00:37 |
| AStorm | ugh | 00:37 |
| AStorm | is the UK price known? | 00:38 |
| AStorm | yeah, Ł499 | 00:39 |
| ShadowJK | Is that preorder from nokia? | 00:39 |
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| AStorm | yes | 00:40 |
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| AStorm | actually, sounds cheaper than the German price :P | 00:41 |
| ShadowJK | Well, you know, add VAT, round to a -99 number | 00:42 |
| AStorm | (likely even after adding S&H) | 00:42 |
| AStorm | that's a total, VAT incl. | 00:42 |
| ShadowJK | I mean since it's a different VAT and different currency they'll arrive at a different number :) | 00:43 |
| * lcuk regains his marbles | 00:43 | |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: yeah, huge difference though | 00:43 |
| AStorm | after > PLN conversion, I end up more than 200 PLN cheaper from UK | 00:43 |
| AStorm | but the q is whether Nokia will send it here | 00:43 |
| ShadowJK | mm :) | 00:44 |
| ShadowJK | UK version is only one with arrows, I guess | 00:44 |
| AStorm | US will likely be too | 00:44 |
| AStorm | dammit Nokia, why can't I get the different kbd version locally? ;> | 00:44 |
| ShadowJK | I wouldn't get US version if you live in europe | 00:45 |
| AStorm | yeah | 00:45 |
| AStorm | might not work w/ HSPA | 00:45 |
| AStorm | but it should ;p | 00:45 |
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| AStorm | if Nokia doesn't want to send it to me, I'll have to look for... alternate channels | 00:46 |
| lcuk | wazd_, did you get my spout in pm? | 00:46 |
| wazd_ | lcuk: nope :( | 00:46 |
| AStorm | different shops.. or a ticket to the UK | 00:46 |
| AStorm | ;P | 00:46 |
| AStorm | (which is still cheaper than the price diff) | 00:46 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> wazd | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> have you seen the mockup of open source donations | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> an about dialog | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> which in an app, a user can see and donate | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> i would like to present a single well designed screen | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> within liqbase | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> i want a proper page outlining open source | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> and donating to it | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> to *all* maemo projects | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> very very general | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> but when a user of liqbase sees this page | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> they leave being informed and will think in future about open source | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> you can make this page 800*however many pixels you need | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> i will make it completely dynamically kinetically smooth | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> you may design it as you like because i know you have a desire | 00:47 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> i will put this on the front page of liqbase when it is release | 00:47 |
| *** disco_stu has quit IRC | 00:47 | |
| lcuk | <lcuk> and it will be the starting point and first time experience the user will get with liq* kinetics | 00:48 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> it will be something i will use to demonstrate with | 00:48 |
| lcuk | <lcuk> so make it good please :$ | 00:48 |
| AStorm | lcuk: flooding the channel? ugh | 00:48 |
| javispedro | heh. | 00:48 |
| lcuk | :) | 00:48 |
| AStorm | use a friggin pastebin | 00:48 |
| Macer | uhm | 00:48 |
| javispedro | this is #maemo. we're starting to being used to it :P | 00:48 |
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| Macer | haha | 00:48 |
| lcuk | maemo IS my pastebin! | 00:49 |
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| wazd_ | lcuk: oh | 00:49 |
| lcuk | copy and paste involves scrollback | 00:49 |
| Macer | isnt that what you just did? | 00:49 |
| AStorm | hmm, one drawback of the UK version might be Ovi Maps | 00:49 |
| wazd_ | lcuk: nope, I haven't seen that mockup :) | 00:49 |
| timeless | generalantilles: ping | 00:49 |
| Macer | hm | 00:49 |
| timeless | astorm, eh? | 00:50 |
| AStorm | I wonder if I could ask someone @local Nokia to get me the UK version w/ Polish maps (once it's launched here) | 00:50 |
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| timeless | the maps are free afaik | 00:50 |
| timeless | it's just a matter of bandwidth | 00:50 |
| AStorm | they are? mwhahaha | 00:50 |
| AStorm | ok, so no drawback | 00:51 |
| Macer | polish maps? | 00:51 |
| AStorm | yeah, maps of Poland. | 00:51 |
| Macer | as in maps of poland ir maps in polish? | 00:51 |
| jaska | of | 00:51 |
| Macer | ir/or | 00:51 |
| lcuk | wazd_, http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=314055&postcount=4 | 00:51 |
| lcuk | but you have as much height as you like | 00:51 |
| AStorm | Macer: you know, GPS w/o local maps is kinda less useful | 00:52 |
| lcuk | it could be 4800 pixels heigh if thats what you needed | 00:52 |
| AStorm | I do hope the GPS chip has been improved | 00:52 |
| lcuk | or more | 00:52 |
| AStorm | esp. lock time | 00:52 |
| lcuk | full 800 pixel width | 00:52 |
| AStorm | timeless: any comment on that? | 00:53 |
| timeless | lbt, jaffa: do either of you have scrollback? i need something from a while ago | 00:53 |
| lbt | I do | 00:53 |
| timeless | astorm: i got my devices a week ago | 00:53 |
| AStorm | and haven't tested the GPS yet? | 00:53 |
| timeless | my summer vacation starts shortly | 00:53 |
| timeless | i won't play w/ gps until then | 00:54 |
| AStorm | heh | 00:54 |
| AStorm | it's just "go outside, launch app, measure time' | 00:54 |
| AStorm | time to first lock | 00:54 |
| timeless | personally, i've found the ovi maps datasource to be abysmal | 00:54 |
| lbt | [19:05] <RST38h> Well, GPS-equipped balloons do not qualify for a common case << "something" from a while ago | 00:54 |
| timeless | people have indicated agps basically works | 00:55 |
| AStorm | timeless: hehehe | 00:55 |
| AStorm | so maemo mapper will be necessary still | 00:55 |
| timeless | which afaiu is a change from the n810 | 00:55 |
| AStorm | n810 agps was also made to work | 00:55 |
| AStorm | uploading ephemeris seems to work | 00:55 |
| AStorm | improves lock time a lot, but it is still slow | 00:55 |
| timeless | astorm: lemme know when ovi can find 20210 | 00:55 |
| timeless | until then, it's a waste of my time | 00:56 |
| AStorm | yeah, waste of up to 5 minutes of your time | 00:56 |
| AStorm | :) | 00:56 |
| lardman | hmm, why do the docs not tell you that column names cannot be filled in with the ?, rubbish | 00:56 |
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| javispedro | does anybody know of a opengl 2 sample? | 00:57 |
| javispedro | I mean, | 00:57 |
| javispedro | something cool I could compile, like glxgears. | 00:57 |
| javispedro | *opengl es 2. | 00:58 |
| AStorm | mesa test suite might have some | 00:58 |
| lardman | is there no SDK on the Ti website? | 00:58 |
| AStorm | oh, that, not | 00:58 |
| javispedro | lardman, I got it to work :) | 00:58 |
| javispedro | but the one distributed with the fremantle sdk | 00:58 |
| lardman | what? OpenGL es 2? | 00:58 |
| javispedro | which afaiks contains no samples | 00:58 |
| javispedro | yes. | 00:58 |
| lardman | on what hw? | 00:59 |
| javispedro | it's drawing a red triangle. it did not know that for something as simple as drawing a triangle you need shaders. | 00:59 |
| javispedro | lardman, x86 :) | 00:59 |
| AStorm | javispedro: you don't, but you can | 00:59 |
| lardman | oh, I see | 00:59 |
| AStorm | with new cards, they all use shaders for this anyway | 00:59 |
| AStorm | so you just get more hardware-like overview | 00:59 |
| javispedro | i think the emulation sdk is using the host GL libraries | 01:00 |
| lardman | the Ti SDK for the omap242|30 came with sample apps too, might be worth a look to see if there's anything avauilable now | 01:00 |
| javispedro | to test that I'd need a glxgears one or something like that | 01:00 |
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| lcuk | wazd_, you have gone quite, does the idea motivate you? | 01:01 |
| wazd_ | lcuk: oh, that one | 01:01 |
| * javispedro tries to repeat the test with the hildon compositor on | 01:01 | |
| wazd_ | lcuk: well, I can help :) | 01:01 |
| * timeless loves glteapot | 01:01 | |
| wazd_ | lcuk: sorry for pauses, tweaking my blog :) | 01:01 |
| javispedro | so, with the hildon desktop on, it just renders a black screen. no errors. | 01:02 |
| javispedro | wait | 01:02 |
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| * javispedro amends. | 01:02 | |
| javispedro | yes, it's rendering | 01:02 |
| AStorm | whee | 01:02 |
| skibur | how would i go about manually setting up Phone with internet via bluetooth to N800? | 01:02 |
| lcuk | ok wazd_ :) lets make this really presentable | 01:02 |
| javispedro | that proves nothing, as usual. | 01:02 |
| AStorm | manually as in? | 01:03 |
| AStorm | skibur: ^ | 01:03 |
| skibur | terminal | 01:03 |
| lcuk | talk to people about ideas | 01:03 |
| lcuk | have a big thread on tmo | 01:03 |
| AStorm | skibur: ugh, not possible with standard maemo tools | 01:03 |
| Myrtti | skibur: "with great difficulty" | 01:03 |
| penguinbait | control panel > phones | 01:03 |
| lcuk | see if you can start your design team off with a good project | 01:03 |
| AStorm | in Mer, you could use rfcomm as usual | 01:03 |
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| AStorm | and ppp | 01:03 |
| javispedro | lardman, damn, I need to "be an insider" to download the sdk | 01:04 |
| javispedro | or does it work with the free registration? | 01:04 |
| lardman | javispedro: in fact you need to email them even then | 01:05 |
| javispedro | bah. | 01:05 |
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| lardman | http://pastebin.com/d76a3539e | 01:06 |
| lardman | not sure which of 3430SDP/ZoomMDK/Zoom2 is most suitable | 01:06 |
| lardman | not really sure why they have different ones anyway, unless it's for the pre-built binaries | 01:07 |
| javispedro | the fremantle one asked me for SGX530 or SGX535 emulation | 01:07 |
| lardman | what are we getting, 3430? | 01:08 |
| javispedro | well, it's ogl 2 for sure. | 01:08 |
| lardman | try firing of an email to them with the following subject line: "LINUX 2.6 for 3430SDP" | 01:09 |
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| GeneralAntilles | timeless, pong? | 01:10 |
| * javispedro finds http://opengles-book.com/downloads.html | 01:12 | |
| javispedro | yummy. sample iphone code running in fremantle sdk. here I come! | 01:12 |
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| lardman | do TreeView objects automatically add scrollbars when needed? If not, how do I add/make it do that? | 01:13 |
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| javispedro | lardman, gtk? they don't. wrap them into a GtkScrolledArea (iirc) | 01:13 |
| javispedro | or a HildonPannableArea if you like fingers :) | 01:13 |
| lardman | pygtk actually | 01:14 |
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| lardman | supposedly the treeview has slots for it though, not quite sure what that's supposed to mean | 01:14 |
| javispedro | same thing I think | 01:14 |
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| javispedro | aka Put a GtkScrolledArea with the TreeView inside. | 01:15 |
| lardman | is that what it means to do though, or just a hack? | 01:15 |
| javispedro | I think that's the good way. | 01:15 |
| lardman | ScrolledWindow as good? | 01:15 |
| javispedro | At least, the TreeView seems to react OK to it. E.g. the headers don't scroll. | 01:15 |
| lardman | ah ok | 01:16 |
| javispedro | yes, ScrollWindow :P | 01:16 |
| javispedro | "GtkScrolledWindow — Adds scrollbars to its child widget" | 01:16 |
| lardman | ok, sorry, so many names :) | 01:16 |
| javispedro | HildonPannableArea (or Window :P) should do the same but without scrollbars and allowing kinetic scrolling. | 01:17 |
| javispedro | (only in fremantle of course) | 01:17 |
| lardman | am building for N810 to begin with, then will move to Fremantle stuff | 01:18 |
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| * javispedro is ashamed of writing char * buffer = calloc(heigth, width); | 01:26 | |
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| lardman | wahey, finally my ui is up :) | 01:28 |
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| lardman | hmm, my Python app has two windows, one blank and one with the ui in it. Is that normal? | 01:47 |
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| julianoliver | lardman: no | 01:49 |
| lardman | didn't think so :) | 01:49 |
| julianoliver | ;) | 01:49 |
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| julianoliver | that said, it depends on the draw and windowing context you're using. i'm only familiar with gtk, sdl, opengl, wx python | 01:51 |
| lardman | I'm just using pygtk | 01:51 |
| julianoliver | right. it's definitely not normal, nope! | 01:51 |
| lardman | though I am also using Gstreamer, not sure if an extra thread might cause that | 01:51 |
| julianoliver | ahh Gstreamer, that bag of eels.. | 01:51 |
| lardman | yeah, surprisingly it works better called from Python than from C | 01:52 |
| lardman | well my C at least :) | 01:52 |
| julianoliver | heh | 01:52 |
| julianoliver | well i've only worked with gst in a C/C++ context | 01:52 |
| julianoliver | once i'd come to terms with the general arcanity of gst syntax, all was well | 01:52 |
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| julianoliver | but yes, it's easy to /not/ know what's going on when working with gst | 01:53 |
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| lardman | ah, found my two window problem, was creating a new window in two different functions, left overs from testing | 01:54 |
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| julianoliver | lardman: cool.. | 01:54 |
| julianoliver | hmm.. here's an app I wrote in Python that I should ensure runs on Maemo: http://julianoliver.com/pg | 01:54 |
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| julianoliver | a network traffic analyser in the form of a 3D garden world | 01:55 |
| julianoliver | actually, only the host traffic is considered.. anywho.. | 01:55 |
| lardman | cool | 01:55 |
| julianoliver | should run pretty well on the N900 at least. | 01:56 |
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| lardman | hmm, X Window System error | 01:58 |
| lardman | BadWindow | 01:58 |
| julianoliver | hehe | 01:59 |
| julianoliver | there's a t-shirt | 01:59 |
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| * SpeedEvil ponders a new TV series on child window managment. Bad ones are thrown through the BadWindow. | 01:59 | |
| julianoliver | love it | 01:59 |
| julianoliver | even a horror trilogy in there somewhere.. | 02:01 |
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| julianoliver | The Ring comes to mind. | 02:03 |
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| javispedro | error: 'NULL' undeclared damn. | 02:06 |
| lardman | I've got the wonders of this: TypeError: an integer is required | 02:06 |
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| * lardman wonders how 240 is not an integer :) | 02:09 | |
| lcuk | gnite simon, javis, rabble :P | 02:10 |
| lardman | night lcuk | 02:10 |
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| zerojay | Clinics are fun. | 02:10 |
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| AStorm | javispedro: use gcc not g++ | 02:12 |
| lardman | ~lart docs which have arguments in the wrong order! | 02:14 |
| javispedro | ~lart book example code which has declarations and actual usage in the wrong order! | 02:15 |
| lardman | lol | 02:15 |
| lardman | ah, infobot has died | 02:16 |
| javispedro | yeah, no log for a few hours either. | 02:16 |
| lardman | whoa, getting late, bed time | 02:17 |
| lardman | night all | 02:17 |
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| MaceN8x0 | blah | 02:40 |
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| simula | darn... n900 now available for preorder in Finland, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, UK.. but no US yet :P | 02:48 |
| SpeedEvil | hahahahahhahahahahahha. | 02:49 |
| * SpeedEvil consoles simula. | 02:49 | |
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| * SpeedEvil wonders what the price in the UK is. /me guesses 499 quid. | 02:49 | |
| * simula considers buying a UK phone | 02:49 | |
| simula | £499.00 | 02:50 |
| SpeedEvil | Yay! I'm right. | 02:50 |
| * SpeedEvil sighs at not having that. | 02:50 | |
| SpeedEvil | that's where? | 02:50 |
| SpeedEvil | ah - .co.uk | 02:51 |
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| simula | i never understood why most corps overcharge the UK for everything compared to the US | 02:52 |
| SpeedEvil | Any colour you want as long as it's black. | 02:52 |
| SpeedEvil | 499 pounds is actually slightly under 599 euro | 02:53 |
| SpeedEvil | but still. | 02:53 |
| simula | it's a good chunk more than 499 usd | 02:53 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah. | 02:54 |
| * SpeedEvil ponders doing the distance selling act thing. | 02:55 | |
| SpeedEvil | Not worth it I suppose. | 02:55 |
| ShadowJK | doing it for what purpose? | 02:55 |
| SpeedEvil | getting to hold one for 10 days. :) | 02:55 |
| SpeedEvil | Has it been confirmed that the US price is actually 499? | 02:56 |
| simula | nope | 02:57 |
| simula | a us release date has not been announced either | 02:57 |
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| AStorm | heh, a lot of work went into the browser | 03:51 |
| b-man16 | http://fc06.deviantart.com/fs29/f/2009/243/5/1/Virtual_Mac_on_a_PC________LOL_by_b_man16.png <== i got bored xD | 03:54 |
| AStorm | meh, in VMWare | 03:56 |
| AStorm | use Virtualbox next time ;) | 03:56 |
| b-man16 | if you look closely, you can see a VirtualBox window in the background running Ubuntu ;) | 03:59 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Pavlov, Fennec aint doin' so well unfullscreen in Fremantle. :P | 04:08 |
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| Texrat | doods | 04:20 |
| Texrat | doods? | 04:20 |
| * Texrat slaps zerojayPC around a bit with a large trout | 04:20 | |
| Texrat | :( | 04:21 |
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| derf | Another satisfied customer. | 04:22 |
| b-man16 | lol | 04:22 |
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| b-man16|away|HW | gah, i hate geometry homework :P | 04:27 |
| AStorm | hmm, could we have Firefox qt4 port updated to 3.5? | 04:30 |
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| * SpeedEvil ponders that his last laptop was considerably slower with about the same size of screen and less RAM - and ran FF2 just fine. | 04:34 | |
| AStorm | should run 3.5 too (3.0 was egregious) | 04:34 |
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| adam-pwgsc | Do you think the N900 will be available worldwide, or only in certain countries and service providers? | 04:39 |
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| ShadowJK | thry've said "select markets" so far | 04:40 |
| ShadowJK | and Nokia has always made phones available regardless of service provider | 04:40 |
| adam-pwgsc | Oh good. So do you think there will be a problem to get one in Canada? No? | 04:41 |
| * ShadowJK shrugs | 04:41 | |
| ShadowJK | At this point the people at nokia finland were allegedly guessing preorders for it on the .fi nokia shop site would start shipping mid-october | 04:44 |
| ShadowJK | and if I remember right nokia usa took notice of its (n900) existence only today | 04:45 |
| ShadowJK | whole nokia germany and italy had preorder pages setup a few days now | 04:45 |
| SpeedEvil | 'took notice of its'? | 04:46 |
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| ShadowJK | they listed it as a product | 04:46 |
| Proteous | http://www.nokiausa.com/find-products/phones/nokia-n900 | 04:46 |
| Proteous | :P | 04:47 |
| ShadowJK | dunno the url for nokia canada :) | 04:47 |
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| bbigras | I think it was http://store.nokia.ca/ but I think the store is closed until 2010 | 04:48 |
| bbigras | Nokia Canada shutters online store : http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=29504 | 04:48 |
| adam-pwgsc | Hm. | 04:49 |
| adam-pwgsc | Well I certainly want one. | 04:50 |
| ShadowJK | allegedly it will take until mid-october before even /pre/orders ship in nokia's home country.. | 04:51 |
| ShadowJK | oh î already said that | 04:51 |
| bbigras | me too, I guess will be able to buy it from stores or import. I'm not sure if the usa model will works with Rogers 3G thing | 04:52 |
| ShadowJK | What I mean to point out is that pricing and availability in real terms are pretty unknown so far | 04:52 |
| * SpeedEvil tries to remember what the octoberists were. | 04:52 | |
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| * zerojayPC awakens to the smell of.... sniff, sniff... trout? | 04:53 | |
| SpeedEvil | ah - russian party of history. | 04:53 |
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| * GeneralAntilles lifts a trout menacingly behind zerojayPC. | 04:54 | |
| b-man16 | oh, hello felipe' O.0 | 04:54 |
| * zerojayPC runs. | 04:54 | |
| * b-man16 chases zerojayPC down and slaps him with the trout >:) | 04:55 | |
| adam-pwgsc | For what I can see, I'm already sold as long as it's less than 1000 CAD | 04:56 |
| ShadowJK | I have this idea for improving swap on sd. Now I just need to test it with a simluated benchmar and figure out kernel coding | 04:56 |
| zerojayPC | GeneralAntilles: Thanks for the "thanks" on the Skype thing. That little shit had me raging. | 04:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 04:59 |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: even though it's closed? | 04:59 |
| zerojayPC | The Canadian Nokia store is better closed than open. That thing was a complete fucking disaster. | 05:00 |
| zerojayPC | When it worked. | 05:00 |
| Luke-Jr | I mean the N900, being closed | 05:00 |
| adam-pwgsc | Luke-Jr: closed source hardware? | 05:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Troll troll troll | 05:00 |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: closed spec even | 05:00 |
| adam-pwgsc | Ah, right. Thanks GeneralAntilles | 05:01 |
| Luke-Jr | GeneralAntilles: it's not trolling to make people aware of the hidden truth | 05:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yes, the hidden truth that you're a troll. | 05:02 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: linear write in a circular buffer? | 05:02 |
| Luke-Jr | Nokia's hiding the fact that the N900 is closed is nearly false advertising. | 05:02 |
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| Luke-Jr | with all the things they say implying otherwise | 05:02 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: have you seen http://www.usenix.org/event/hotos09/tech/full_papers/saxena/saxena_html/ ? | 05:03 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: or were you the one to point it out | 05:03 |
| ShadowJK | i dont think so | 05:03 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: They aren't hiding anything, relax. | 05:03 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: swap over net-block-device may be easy to do and to try stuff with | 05:03 |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: the result is that proprietary software on it is mandatory | 05:03 |
| Luke-Jr | zerojayPC: please refer me to a N900 ad that clearly admits it is closed and not open | 05:04 |
| SpeedEvil | The closed software is fairly minimal. | 05:04 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: which closed parts are you referring to? | 05:04 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: but crucial and mandatory | 05:04 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: Where did they say it's 100% open? | 05:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Luke-Jr doesn't actually want open source to succeed. | 05:04 |
| Luke-Jr | most of Nokia's open parts are irrelevant | 05:04 |
| adam-pwgsc | You're given root, after all | 05:04 |
| zerojayPC | lol | 05:04 |
| Luke-Jr | zerojayPC: 90% open is closed | 05:04 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: you're an idiot. | 05:05 |
| Pavlov | GeneralAntilles: hm? | 05:05 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: Get the fuck out of here. | 05:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | Mostly he seems to just want to punish anybody who makes the slightest compromise. | 05:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | See. | 05:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pavlov, b3 screenshots on N900. | 05:05 |
| Pavlov | GeneralAntilles: it just needs a small patch | 05:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pavlov, too many toolbars. | 05:05 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: People with attitudes like yours give the rest of us a bad name. | 05:05 |
| Pavlov | agreed | 05:05 |
| Pavlov | it'll be full screen in next week or two | 05:05 |
| Luke-Jr | GeneralAntilles: compromise isn't so much the problem | 05:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, kidding. ;) | 05:05 |
| Luke-Jr | the problem is the closed parts are *crucial* to usag | 05:05 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: By that basis - all PCs running linux - barring the tiny fraction that use open-source BIOSs and no closed IP cores are closed. | 05:05 |
| Luke-Jr | if the UI was closed that can be dealt with | 05:05 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: BIOS is an open specification | 05:06 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: If the UI was closed, you'd bitch about that just as much. | 05:06 |
| adam-pwgsc | Luke-Jr: Do you use an intel or amd processor? | 05:06 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: as are most PCs's CPUs | 05:06 |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: I'm not expecting open source hardware. Just specs to use it. | 05:06 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: No, it's not. | 05:06 |
| Luke-Jr | zerojayPC: no, I'd replace it | 05:06 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: x86 is an open specification. anyone can read and write x86 | 05:07 |
| Luke-Jr | same for ARM, MIPS, etc | 05:07 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: Show me one commodity motherboard maker that documents their motherboard enough to create a BIOS that recreates it. | 05:07 |
| * zerojayPC sighs. | 05:07 | |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: I'm not talking about replacing the hardware. | 05:07 |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: i was thinking of a modified loop device that writes into a circular buffer. An array mapping logical to physical would be in ram. and not ever on disk. (avoids complexities, and nobody minds if swap contents is garbled across reboot) | 05:07 |
| Luke-Jr | I'm talking about mere USE | 05:07 |
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| adam-pwgsc | troll is right.. RMS is _in the room_ | 05:08 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: If 90% open isn't good enough for you, go have fun with Archos. | 05:08 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: so you bypass totally the questions of rewriting the VM layer? | 05:08 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: and just do a fake block device? | 05:09 |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: yep | 05:09 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: also, http://www.coreboot.org/Supported_Motherboards | 05:09 |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: that was my idea | 05:09 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: And show me one that has ACPI that has not been reverse engineered from the tables the maker shows. | 05:09 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: I think the simple way to do it is | 05:09 |
| ShadowJK | I have doubt whether mixinfg sequential writes with random reads is fast or slow and need to benchmark before bothering | 05:10 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: there is a net-block-device client | 05:10 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: like I said, it's an unrelated topic | 05:10 |
| zerojayPC | Nokia's embraced open source and has been doing so more and more over the years. They sponsor people to go on these trips, they send out developer discounts to help grow the community they are an active part of. Almost no other company does these things, but it's still just not enough. | 05:10 |
| Luke-Jr | there is a significant difference between open source hardware and open specification hardware | 05:10 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: rewrite that to do what you want - and just swap over that | 05:10 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: at least in the first instance. | 05:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | They've managed to open up at least one spec. | 05:10 |
| Luke-Jr | GeneralAntilles: oh? | 05:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | and are working hard on more. | 05:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Luke-Jr, the WiFi . . . | 05:10 |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: yes. but it's not safe | 05:10 |
| Luke-Jr | GeneralAntilles: true, I guess they get points for that | 05:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: Hardware is not documented adequately by x86 code. | 05:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | :rolleyes: | 05:11 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: x86 is a specification to use x86 CPUs | 05:11 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: Or you might as well argue that nokia has documented their interfaces with arm code | 05:11 |
| zerojayPC | People have to understand that there has to be a compromise between complete openness and protecting some stuff... and a lot of times it's not even Nokia's own stuff preventing it going fully open. | 05:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Luke-Jr, if you're going to be a hardline zealot, at least give due where it's due. | 05:11 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: not safe? | 05:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojayPC, most of the time, even. | 05:11 |
| zerojayPC | Hell, Nokia's pushing Texas Instruments to open the 3d driver stuff for the N810... I mean... how can you even complain? TI doesn't have to do that. | 05:12 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: this is more like a company not documenting their PCI bus | 05:12 |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: the issue with nbd is, what if swapout is needed to allocate network buffer to receive and/or send the swapout data | 05:12 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: as I understand the nbd deadlocks are rare and can be worked around with a very low priority swap device. | 05:12 |
| Luke-Jr | zerojayPC: they are? last I checked Nokia had no interest in an open 3D driver | 05:12 |
| Luke-Jr | perhaps my info is just wrong then | 05:13 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: 3d drivers aren't Nokia's to open. | 05:13 |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: it's rare when the "server" isn't localhost. when server is localhost too, I'm not convinced it'd survive long | 05:13 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: That's why they turned to TI to ask them to open them or at least provide them. | 05:13 |
| zerojayPC | But yeah.. Nokia doesn't care about open source. | 05:14 |
| ShadowJK | isn't the interest in open 3d drivers why they are ignoring gps? | 05:14 |
| Luke-Jr | zerojayPC: Nokia *could* make a little effort to buy hardware with open specs... surely they didn't have to use TI? | 05:14 |
| Luke-Jr | ShadowJK: GPS was an advertised feature. 3D was not. Their priorities don't make sense there. | 05:14 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: Sure, if you want elevated prices and lowered performance. | 05:14 |
| Luke-Jr | zerojayPC: s3c6410 costs more? | 05:15 |
| zerojayPC | I haven't a clue. | 05:15 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: second swap device with very low priority | 05:15 |
| zerojayPC | I don't have a parts list in front of me. | 05:15 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: so it never gets used unless it deadlocks | 05:15 |
| adam-pwgsc | I think the hardware is great. | 05:15 |
| zerojayPC | Nokia's trying to get 3d drivers because... you guessed it... the community ASKED for them. | 05:16 |
| adam-pwgsc | As long as they put the code in the kernel... who cares? | 05:16 |
| ShadowJK | i didnt know there was deadlock detection with redirect to other swap device logic... :P | 05:16 |
| adam-pwgsc | yay nokia for making a linux device! | 05:16 |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: they don't... | 05:16 |
| ShadowJK | but anyway for testing I could just have my n800 as server and n810 as client | 05:16 |
| Luke-Jr | the one Nokia employee that is working to get N8x0 supported by mainline Linux has to do so in his spare off-company time | 05:16 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: Yes, Nokia's *never* contributed upstream to the kernel. Ugh. | 05:17 |
| adam-pwgsc | n900! Woo! | 05:17 |
| Luke-Jr | zerojayPC: I didn't say *never* | 05:17 |
| ShadowJK | and his vacation is probably over now | 05:17 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: I thought deadlocks could be avoided that way - I thought a deadlock only happened if while trying to swap the system could not allocate a page | 05:17 |
| zerojayPC | Luke-Jr: That's the way you're acting. | 05:18 |
| ShadowJK | they did put telephony drivers in linux iirc :) | 05:18 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: I thought a second swap device would stop this. | 05:18 |
| zerojayPC | [22:46] <adam-pwgsc> As long as they put the code in the kernel... who cares? | 05:18 |
| zerojayPC | [22:47] <Luke-Jr> adam-pwgsc: they don't... | 05:18 |
| Luke-Jr | zerojayPC: "the code" implies enough to support the hardware, in this context, IMO | 05:18 |
| * zerojayPC facepalm | 05:19 | |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: only if it detects the deadlock, and entire call path involved knows to allocate memory that can't trigger swapping | 05:19 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: I've not looked at it | 05:19 |
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| Luke-Jr | I guess I'm just upset that I bought a GPS and can't use it because of this. | 05:20 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: While you're revamping the swap subsystem can you add per-user swap too :) | 05:20 |
| ShadowJK | You have to be careful in userspace too. preallocate and mlock all the memory you need, including the stack whcih otherwise grows automatically | 05:20 |
| ShadowJK | per-user swap? wtf? | 05:20 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: swap to slightly unreliable but fast media. Media goes wrong - whole system down. If swap was per user - only one users tasks would die | 05:21 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: in the nbd client you mean? | 05:21 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: depends on how the media goes wrong, no? | 05:22 |
| ShadowJK | server, isnt the kernel the client? :) | 05:22 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Luke-Jr, I recommend you just quiet down. | 05:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | You clearly don't know many of the facts here. | 05:22 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: for example - unplugged usb2 drive | 05:22 |
| ShadowJK | whole system doesnt necessarily go wrong, I once had an irc server in a remote location, and someone stole the hd. it continued working, though ssh, cron and other random crud crashed | 05:23 |
| Luke-Jr | GeneralAntilles: meh, I still bought a GPS I can't use... :/ | 05:23 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: no - however any process may go wrong | 05:23 |
| ShadowJK | yeah | 05:23 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: if it needs to swapin it'll segfault | 05:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Luke-Jr, you can use it, you just didn't do your research like you should've and now you're being a troll about it. | 05:24 |
| Luke-Jr | as part of an in-production system that is already unsupported with known unfixed bugs... | 05:24 |
| ShadowJK | there's support for ram that might vanish at any point | 05:24 |
| adam-pwgsc | I once knew someone who's hard drive died while the system was running. He plugged in a new one and re-installed gentoo while the system was still running. He was insane. | 05:24 |
| ShadowJK | or atleast a patch on lkml for it | 05:24 |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: that's not actually possible with a normal system. shell commands are on disk.. | 05:24 |
| Luke-Jr | he wouldn't be able to execute tar | 05:25 |
| adam-pwgsc | He aparently had a large disk cache | 05:25 |
| ShadowJK | if they were in cache in system didnt notice disk vanishing...:) | 05:25 |
| Luke-Jr | hmm | 05:25 |
| Luke-Jr | I don't have a cache really ☺ | 05:25 |
| adam-pwgsc | get moar ram | 05:25 |
| Luke-Jr | OS: GNU/Linux 2.6.27-gentoo-r7/x86_64 - CPU: 1 x AMD Athlon(tm) 64 Processor 3200+ (2202.754 MHz) - Processes: 285 - Uptime: 88d 21h 24m - Users: 84 - Load Average: 0.44 - Memory Usage: 5633MB/2011MB (280%) | 05:26 |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: DDR1 RAM is expensive | 05:26 |
| Luke-Jr | I need a full upgrade someday | 05:26 |
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| SpeedEvil | I've done that. suspend laptop, unplug hard drive, plug in new hard drive, dd from network to new hard drive. | 05:26 |
| adam-pwgsc | what are you using, a typewriter? | 05:26 |
| ShadowJK | but if linux noticed the disk going away it would have dumped cache for everything on it | 05:26 |
| SpeedEvil | (mounted from ramdisk chroot) | 05:26 |
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| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: 5 year old box | 05:27 |
| adam-pwgsc | Maybe it didn't notice? | 05:27 |
| adam-pwgsc | IRC via TCP-over-typewriter | 05:27 |
| Luke-Jr | ah | 05:27 |
| Luke-Jr | ramdisk coudl work if you planned on it | 05:27 |
| Luke-Jr | so um | 05:28 |
| adam-pwgsc | he was kind of paranoid | 05:28 |
| * Luke-Jr ponders selling his N810 so he can have a place to live. | 05:28 | |
| * adam-pwgsc thinks there are better sources of income | 05:30 | |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: such as? ☺ | 05:30 |
| Luke-Jr | I have a few hours. :þ | 05:30 |
| adam-pwgsc | er | 05:30 |
| Luke-Jr | and my paypal withdraw limit is already hit | 05:30 |
| adam-pwgsc | Well I just finished a term for the government. Made 1800 bucks a month doing almost nothing. | 05:30 |
| Luke-Jr | XD | 05:31 |
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| Luke-Jr | if I had time, I'd just wait for my next paycheck | 05:31 |
| adam-pwgsc | Maybe you just don't spend it on the right things. My rent is only 425 a month. | 05:31 |
| * SpeedEvil offers his shed. | 05:31 | |
| Proteous | wear a short skirt and stand on the street corner, maybe make some money... | 05:31 |
| Luke-Jr | adam-pwgsc: you must live somewhere cheap or small | 05:32 |
| SpeedEvil | np: Pet Shop Boys - Rent | 05:32 |
| SpeedEvil | Luke-Jr: I assume you're not in scotland? | 05:32 |
| adam-pwgsc | Luke-Jr: Share with girlfriend, cheap, and a little small :P | 05:32 |
| Luke-Jr | SpeedEvil: I have an apartment till Sep 30; the problem is I need to have a home inspection of my new place this week :þ | 05:32 |
| SpeedEvil | adam-pwgsc: make her wear heels. | 05:33 |
| adam-pwgsc | SpeedEvil: uh, why? | 05:33 |
| SpeedEvil | I was intentionally mis-parsing the sentance for comedic effect. (attempted) | 05:35 |
| Luke-Jr | O.o | 05:35 |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: table2 matches my real-world experience though I've never been able to benhmark it accurately :) | 05:40 |
| * ShadowJK has also investigated nilfs2 | 05:40 | |
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| ShadowJK | hm.. if mixing sequential writes with random reads turns out to be slowö, more memory would be needed to bufffer writes into 256 or 512k chunks | 05:42 |
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| SpeedEvil | I think you rapidly run up against needing to know what bits of swap are allocated. | 05:44 |
| SpeedEvil | For example - when you hit the end of the circular buffer. | 05:45 |
| ShadowJK | it's all measured in 4k pages, how many pages in 256meg, how many bytes for a bitmap? :) | 05:46 |
| SpeedEvil | You probably want to - if you can - skip over parts that would involve a rewrite cycle. | 05:46 |
| SpeedEvil | I mean that you can't only do it in nbd - or whatever - you need some kernel involvement | 05:46 |
| SpeedEvil | At least to read the allocated swap bitmap | 05:47 |
| ShadowJK | hm, no I dont think so? | 05:47 |
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| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: you're writing to a circular buffer emulating a logical block device. | 05:48 |
| ShadowJK | the circular buffer should be a bit bigger than the emulated block device | 05:48 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: This works fine until you've written more than the capacity of the circular buffer. | 05:48 |
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| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: At which time you need to know which blocks of the emulated block device are now free | 05:49 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: so you can start to overwrite the old content. | 05:49 |
| * SpeedEvil ponders hacks with lots of little swap devices and swapoff. | 05:50 | |
| ShadowJK | I have an array to map logical page X to physical Y. I have a bitmap marking physical used/unused. When logical block X is (over)written, I would look at mapping, free physical page in bitmap, update mapping to next page to be written, mark page used | 05:51 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: Sure. And when on your 2G circular buffer device - 2G has been written to swap - and 1.9G freed - where do you write the next page? | 05:52 |
| ShadowJK | fragmentation is an issue though | 05:52 |
| *** k-s is now known as k-s[AWAY] | 05:52 | |
| ShadowJK | start from the beginning, skipping used pages :) | 05:52 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: for which purpose you need to know used pages - for which you need kernel involvement | 05:52 |
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| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: I'm probably talking at cross purposes - it's 4AMish | 05:53 |
| ShadowJK | kernel request to overwrite a page frees one physical and allocates another | 05:53 |
| vladovg | hi | 05:54 |
| vladovg | som one | 05:54 |
| vladovg | ken help my | 05:54 |
| * ShadowJK should sleep too | 05:54 | |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: sure - but that means that if you have a 3G circular buffer device - say - a 2g virtual block device - and 2G of swap has been written and 1.9G freed - you now have to allocate the next swap over 1G of circular bufferspace not 2.9 | 05:55 |
| SpeedEvil | vladovg: with? | 05:55 |
| vladovg | nid a python hildondesktop | 05:55 |
| vladovg | fain it in extrax manuali | 05:56 |
| vladovg | trait to instal and the tablet seis it s inkomplitable | 05:56 |
| vladovg | http://repository.maemo.org/ | 05:56 |
| vladovg | http://repository.maemo.org/extras/pool/diablo/free/p/python-hildondesktop/ | 05:57 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: you probably also want to do background defragging - read at a slow rate teh now-fragmented 100M that's there - and contiguise it into your stream that you're writing | 05:57 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 05:57 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: but for that again you need to know which bits of swap are in use - and haven't been freed | 05:58 |
| vladovg | addet the maemo extras to aplication manager but the hildondesktop is not ther | 05:58 |
| vladovg | and it sais it s not komlitable traing direktli from garage | 05:59 |
| ShadowJK | it doesn't matter. if swap partition is 256meg and Im using 512 meg of disk to store it, I still habe half free at all times | 05:59 |
| ShadowJK | and i dont care if kernel is using 1 meg of that swap partition or using it all | 06:00 |
| vladovg | help :) | 06:00 |
| * ShadowJK sleeps | 06:01 | |
| vladovg | flashet tablet todai | 06:01 |
| * SpeedEvil has no clue - sorry | 06:01 | |
| vladovg | bifor thet ay haw it on the device | 06:02 |
| vladovg | but dont remember from wear ay get it | 06:02 |
| vladovg | it kome with some app | 06:02 |
| vladovg | some one els please | 06:04 |
| vladovg | :) | 06:04 |
| SpeedEvil | This time is quite quiet - it gets more active in a few hours | 06:05 |
| oilinki | good morning | 06:06 |
| zerojayPC | C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER! | 06:06 |
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| comhack | I installed the boot menu and it goes super quick to the first entry. Does anyone know how to slow it down any> | 06:30 |
| Luke-Jr | edit the config? | 06:30 |
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| comhack | yeah the bootconf but where is it | 06:30 |
| comhack | slocate is not available | 06:30 |
| Luke-Jr | /mnt/initfs | 06:30 |
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| comhack | thanks | 06:30 |
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| GAN800 | Engadget :roll: | 06:54 |
| GAN800 | http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/02/nokia-x6-confirmed-to-sport-a-capacitive-display-we-can-finally/ | 06:54 |
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| bbigras | I just compiled a Qt apps with the fremantle sdk. It seems I can't use the keyboard with this apps Is there a onscreen keyboard or do you guys know if I need to do something special to make it work? | 07:08 |
| aspect | my girlfriend prefers resistive .. can't use nails on capacitative :( | 07:09 |
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| kirma | say that in apple store and you're offered a thinly veiled insult as customer service | 07:19 |
| * kirma observes that in data contracts, cartel mentality is going strong in .fi | 07:22 | |
| kirma | one and two megabit 3G data deals are the same price between all operators almost to the single cent on all operators, and last time they dropped prices, *all* of them halved them at the same time | 07:23 |
| kirma | and that's now years ago. | 07:23 |
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| kirma | I pay 20 euros for my home 100/10 fixed connection... and the same for one megabit mobile connection. wouldn't care to pay thirty euros for two, when that's mostly theoretically reachable in practice... | 07:24 |
| Proteous | in the US they don't meter your 3g data speeds, they just charge you 5 times as much as everywhere else | 07:25 |
| kirma | I'm just slightly surprised how little local telecom and competition regulation authorities seem to care about pricing that seems *so* much like a cartel | 07:26 |
| kirma | I suppose there's more variation on megabytes-per-month and per-data-day billing options, but those are really not so affordable for power users. | 07:27 |
| oilinki | in thailand we have time based billing for mobile data. it's a bit more understandable for the end users | 07:29 |
| kirma | I suppose it's best to wait until around christmas... if N900 really catches on, the competition should kick in again | 07:29 |
| oilinki | about 4 euros/20 hours/month | 07:29 |
| oilinki | but all we have is EDGE (220kbps downling) | 07:30 |
| kirma | and even operators with good HSPA coverage start offering over 2M connections, not only those that nowhere can actually deliver the promise. | 07:30 |
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| Proteous | I wish I could set my n97 apps to selectivly use edge or 3g | 07:31 |
| Proteous | so I could set my always connected app to use edge but the browsers and other apps to use the faster more power hungry connection | 07:31 |
| kirma | technology-based billing? | 07:31 |
| Proteous | kirma, that's pretty much how it is here | 07:32 |
| kirma | you have to note that interesting things would be needed that to work exactly that way when multiple apps with different priorities would be running at the same time | 07:32 |
| Proteous | if the carrier does a scan and finds you have a "smartphone" but aren't paying the premium for the smartphone data plan they will make you switch | 07:32 |
| Proteous | kirma, I'm pretty sure that edge and 3g can be passing data at the same time | 07:33 |
| Proteous | but maybe not | 07:33 |
| kirma | I have gripes towards .fi operators and european data roaming, but that doesn't compare to the disgust I feel for the situation in US market (and how customers think they're on the most advanced market...) | 07:34 |
| oilinki | kirma: is the 3g/hsdpa good in Finland? What I understood the coverage is very limited? | 07:34 |
| kirma | it's limited. that part doesn't matter so much to me, since I live only 10 km form Helsinki center... | 07:35 |
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| Proteous | oof | 07:40 |
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| * Stskeeps yawns | 08:14 | |
| Luke-Jr | Stskeeps: slonopotamus is diffing diffs! | 08:14 |
| Myrtti | *yawn*² | 08:15 |
| Stskeeps | anc? | 08:15 |
| Stskeeps | and? | 08:15 |
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| * Proteous passes a kidney stone for Stskeeps | 08:17 | |
| bbigras | someone here has write access to http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_2_sdk_installation/ ? | 08:17 |
| Proteous | I hope you kinow how painful it was | 08:17 |
| comhack | /join #arch-arm | 08:19 |
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| Stskeeps | Proteous: thank you for the sacrifice | 08:21 |
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| * kirma wonders everybody and their dog is queueing to nokia flagship store now | 09:42 | |
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| kirma | going to check out. | 09:42 |
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| Stskeeps | morning danielwilms | 09:46 |
| danielwilms | morning Stskeeps :) | 09:47 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 09:47 |
| Myrtti | fucking stupid emacs | 09:47 |
| Myrtti | stupid sed and awk | 09:47 |
| * Stskeeps curses the water-vacuum cleaner | 09:47 | |
| Jaffa | ShadowJK: Can you update the wiki page with that info about USB & charging, please? http://wiki.maemo.org/NokiaWorld_2009_QA | 09:47 |
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| MaceN8x0 | water vaccum cleaner? | 09:50 |
| MaceN8x0 | like a shop vac? | 09:50 |
| Stskeeps | like for cleaning a carpet | 09:50 |
| bulfaiter | I don't know if it's too late to ask (or if it's been already answered): will it be possible to sync the n900 with OS X? (via ovi suite, or iSync) | 09:50 |
| Stskeeps | MaceN8x0: finishing up our old apartment so | 09:51 |
| johnx | bulfaiter, too early to ask I think | 09:51 |
| MaceN8x0 | oh | 09:51 |
| johnx | bulfaiter, can mac os x sync to ovi? | 09:51 |
| bulfaiter | johnx: I think the new ovi suite (Beta) will have a os x version | 09:53 |
| bulfaiter | but don't know how it'll integrate with ical, contacts and all that | 09:53 |
| johnx | and I think I heard about the N900 syncing to Ovi | 09:54 |
| johnx | sooo, I'd give it a firm "probably" | 09:54 |
| johnx | but don't pull the trigger until you see someone else actually using it | 09:54 |
| johnx | I mean: the N800 had a camera and had skype, so you'd think video chat on skype would be inevitable | 09:54 |
| bulfaiter | hehe | 09:55 |
| kulve | anybody familiar with tracker? | 09:56 |
| kulve | how do I use e.g. tracker-meta-folder? | 09:57 |
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| kulve | or how do I ask tracker to show me the tags of an MP3? | 09:59 |
| Stskeeps | heh, danish newspaper describing n900: a superphone for real men | 10:00 |
| MaceN8x0 | lol | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | i'm inclined to agree | 10:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | Stskeeps, showing a mountain climber talking on it while fighting off wolves with a knife? | 10:02 |
| johnx | s/knife/n900/ | 10:02 |
| johnx | with the flip out laser sword, and flame thrower ... they dropped those? aaaah | 10:03 |
| johnx | just trust me: the development units had all that and it was *awesome* | 10:03 |
| MaceN8x0 | hahahaha | 10:03 |
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| MaceN8x0 | as long as it has a compass | 10:04 |
| MaceN8x0 | ;) | 10:04 |
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| johnx | yup, and I can live with just the blow gun and pipe wrench | 10:05 |
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| Stskeeps | MaceN8x0: with friggen lasers! | 10:05 |
| * timsamoff flies home today. Jaffa is the point-man for today's Nokia World coverage. | 10:06 | |
| MaceN8x0 | no, the compass is projected when held perpendicular to the ground by its holographic 3D imaging system | 10:06 |
| johnx | laser compass burns down trees and structures until you can see the north star | 10:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | along with a holographic map | 10:07 |
| Stskeeps | timsamoff: hope it was enjoyable | 10:07 |
| timsamoff | stskeeps: Yes. Thanks! | 10:07 |
| MaceN8x0 | the manly phone | 10:07 |
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| MaceN8x0 | maybe it can keep .05 oz of aftershave in it | 10:08 |
| johnx | or it's actually just a flask shaped like a phone: hence why it's so thick | 10:08 |
| MaceN8x0 | im still a little disappointed in that nokiaworld thing | 10:09 |
| MaceN8x0 | with its 10 sec of n900 video | 10:10 |
| MaceN8x0 | nokia needs to drop that overpriced shitbook | 10:10 |
| johnx | eh, it'll drop itself if it doesn't sell: and if it does then more power to them | 10:10 |
| MaceN8x0 | 2x the $ for an aspire1 with a nokia logo on it? | 10:10 |
| MaceN8x0 | x86 too? they should be ashamed | 10:11 |
| johnx | what was the most grating was the last guy trying to sound "with it" while talking about social networking | 10:11 |
| MaceN8x0 | hahaha | 10:11 |
| adeus | pay 3x and soon you might get an apple logo on it :) | 10:11 |
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| MaceN8x0 | adeus, agreed | 10:12 |
| MaceN8x0 | when he said "atom" i wanted to choke him out | 10:12 |
| MaceN8x0 | wish i was telekenitic and could cut off the blood to his brain | 10:13 |
| Luke-Jr | MaceN8x0: hey, did you hear about Sun/Oracle's new SPARC phone? | 10:13 |
| MaceN8x0 | really? | 10:13 |
| Luke-Jr | no, just pulling your leg | 10:13 |
| MaceN8x0 | probably runs gnome :-P | 10:13 |
| MaceN8x0 | i hate gnome | 10:14 |
| kirma | hmmh | 10:14 |
| MaceN8x0 | spark in a phone hehe | 10:14 |
| kirma | n900 is small... too small, when I'm used to e90 | 10:15 |
| kirma | just tried | 10:15 |
| MaceN8x0 | is it a suitcase phone with nothing but a car battery in the case | 10:15 |
| MaceN8x0 | not the same size as an n810? | 10:15 |
| johnx | didn't they make sparc "laptop" at some point | 10:15 |
| johnx | I think there was an alpha laptop too | 10:15 |
| MaceN8x0 | dunno | 10:16 |
| MaceN8x0 | sounds neat tho | 10:16 |
| Luke-Jr | there's a Loongson laptop | 10:16 |
| Luke-Jr | and a Cell laptop | 10:16 |
| MaceN8x0 | then again so did the dragon laptop | 10:16 |
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| MaceN8x0 | Luke-Jr, yeah, heard the loongsoon sucked | 10:17 |
| MaceN8x0 | was slow as shit | 10:17 |
| MaceN8x0 | and hot | 10:17 |
| MaceN8x0 | real real hot | 10:17 |
| Luke-Jr | MaceN8x0: dragons are big, wtf do you expect? | 10:17 |
| Luke-Jr | if they weren't big, they'd merely be lizards | 10:17 |
| * johnx does not want a dragon anywhere near his lap | 10:17 | |
| johnx | they seem awfully bitey | 10:18 |
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| * Stskeeps doesn't want x86 heat either. | 10:18 | |
| MaceN8x0 | johnx, then dont get a loongsoon | 10:18 |
| MaceN8x0 | they captured the dragonfire and shoved it into a laptop | 10:18 |
| MaceN8x0 | Stskeeps, i agree | 10:19 |
| Luke-Jr | how about a CRIS laptop? | 10:19 |
| MaceN8x0 | my aspire1 gets real hot | 10:19 |
| MaceN8x0 | the loongsoon looked promising | 10:19 |
| MaceN8x0 | too bad it sucks | 10:19 |
| kirma | http://www.cs.hut.fi/~kirma/n900-nordic.jpg ... the nordic keyboard layout | 10:20 |
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| X-Fade | kirma: Nice arrow keys :( | 10:21 |
| Luke-Jr | seriously, though, I wonder how a CRIS handheld would be | 10:21 |
| kirma | welll... | 10:22 |
| X-Fade | kirma: You guys should just type plain ascii ;) | 10:22 |
| johnx | wow...those arrow keys are like what would happen if you tried to squish an Apple ][ keyboard | 10:23 |
| kirma | I might question the wide need for up/down though | 10:24 |
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| X-Fade | kirma: Gaming and scrolling. | 10:24 |
| X-Fade | kirma: And usefull in xterm ;) | 10:25 |
| kirma | very mainstream :I | 10:25 |
| kirma | scrolling is mainly finger thing... and might also be orientation thing, largelwy so on games anyway | 10:26 |
| X-Fade | kirma: accelerators can help with that a bit. | 10:27 |
| adeus | for a game I would just map the surrounding keys accordingly | 10:27 |
| X-Fade | adeus: True, you don't look at the keys anyway. | 10:27 |
| adeus | if you do, you probably suck at the game anyway :) | 10:28 |
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| johnx | though wasd lines up beautifully and is well known | 10:30 |
| johnx | or w a d x | 10:30 |
| adeus | Iv'e never used wsad for fps games | 10:30 |
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| adeus | I always map them around j | 10:31 |
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| X-Fade | adeus: Well I did, right hand for mouse. | 10:31 |
| qole | what ho! What news upon the Rialto? | 10:31 |
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| qole | Crickets: chirp, chirp | 10:34 |
| qole | Day 2 of Nokia World and nothing to report? | 10:35 |
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| X-Fade | N810 with 3D display? :) | 10:36 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: tactile, with individually inflatable pixels. | 10:37 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: No, this one is real. | 10:38 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: actual image reproduction optional. | 10:38 |
| X-Fade | http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/02/nokias-3d-n810-internet-tablet-caught-on-blurrycam/ | 10:38 |
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| RST38h | X-Fade: I seem to remember this one making rounds before | 10:39 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: If it is the display that uses "ridges" to split image into left/right eyes, I would not get excited too much | 10:40 |
| Myrtti | dumdidumdidum | 10:41 |
| * RST38h moos at Myrtti | 10:41 | |
| X-Fade | qole: I guess the comments issue you reported was because of cache. | 10:43 |
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| Whiz | kirma, that finnish keyboard is f**ng ugly. I think I'm going for the international version because of that.. | 10:46 |
| Myrtti | what Finnish keyboard, where | 10:47 |
| * Myrtti checks | 10:47 | |
| Myrtti | WOHEY! | 10:47 |
| Myrtti | it comes with a Finnish keyboard \o/ | 10:47 |
| X-Fade | Myrtti: Well, scandinavian.. ;) | 10:47 |
| fragment | Whiz: o7 | 10:48 |
| Whiz | Myrtti, "whee we got äöå but we lost arrow keys" | 10:48 |
| Whiz | fragment, yello.. | 10:48 |
| Myrtti | Whiz: hm | 10:48 |
| Whiz | Myrtti, well compare the bottom right corner of the keyboard on http://maemo.nokia.com/images/uploads/device1.jpg and http://www.cs.hut.fi/~kirma/n900-nordic.jpg :) | 10:49 |
| Whiz | no dpad + f**d up arrow keys :D | 10:49 |
| Myrtti | Whiz: as I said, hm. | 10:49 |
| Whiz | :D ah ok.. misinterpred it as "hmm, dont understand" | 10:49 |
| Captain_Picard | Whiz: =)) | 10:50 |
| Captain_Picard | Whiz: you were in helsinki? | 10:50 |
| Whiz | Captain_Picard, yep | 10:50 |
| aquatix | Myrtti: like nordic people need arrows ;) | 10:50 |
| Captain_Picard | i wanted arrows ;( | 10:51 |
| Captain_Picard | how can i play !!?! | 10:51 |
| Captain_Picard | without arrow keys | 10:51 |
| * RST38h will offer US n900, once they appear, to finns, with a slight markup =) | 10:51 | |
| aquatix | hm | 10:51 |
| Whiz | and why they kept left<>right arrows and not up<>down | 10:51 |
| aquatix | Captain_Picard: tilt sensors? ;) | 10:51 |
| RST38h | Whiz: They felt nostalgic about Sony Ericcsson UIQ devices? | 10:52 |
| johnx | Whiz, look at the "fn+" for the arrow keys, left and right are there :) | 10:52 |
| aquatix | RST38h: at least those had a scroll wheel | 10:52 |
| johnx | RST38h, nah, nostalgic for the Apple ][ handheld that never happened | 10:52 |
| RST38h | not all of them | 10:52 |
| qole | X-Fade, shortly after I reported it, everything was fine. I assumed you had fixed itl. | 10:52 |
| Captain_Picard | rofl | 10:52 |
| Captain_Picard | FN keys arrows | 10:52 |
| Captain_Picard | that sucks | 10:52 |
| RST38h | johnx: Not valid unless they include 6502. | 10:52 |
| X-Fade | qole: No, that was probably the cache. I was asleep then ;) | 10:53 |
| Whiz | I've been really found of other tablet versions because it's been so easy to browse a website with just Dpad and no need for touchscreen | 10:53 |
| johnx | RST38h, you'll settle for emulated I expect? | 10:53 |
| johnx | Whiz, and yet they make the d-pad worse in every revision | 10:53 |
| RST38h | johnx: Of course not, they are hardware guys, they are supposed to include a real 6502, even as a decoration =) | 10:53 |
| johnx | they had to keep it up with the N900 | 10:53 |
| Captain_Picard | how am i suppoused to play without dpad or good arrows .( | 10:54 |
| Captain_Picard | tilt sensor is not an option | 10:54 |
| johnx | RST38h, heh, yeah, I suppose that's the least they could do to apologize for their hatred of directional buttons | 10:54 |
| johnx | Captain_Picard, w a s d | 10:54 |
| johnx | or: key bindings | 10:54 |
| Captain_Picard | johnx: thats strafing :p | 10:54 |
| Captain_Picard | a d | 10:54 |
| till- | i don't understand why they didn't put the umlauts on fn | 10:54 |
| johnx | this is less of a problem in reality then people are actually making it out to be | 10:54 |
| Captain_Picard | is it possible to use a bluetooth mouse | 10:55 |
| Captain_Picard | with the n900? | 10:55 |
| till- | as they are not used very often | 10:55 |
| RST38h | johnx,Whiz,Captain,aquatix: Want the dpad? Go here and flashmob this proposal: http://maemo.org/community/brainstorm/view/add_directional_buttons_to_the_back_of_device/ | 10:55 |
| RST38h | Make Quim know. | 10:55 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Quim doesn't have anything to do with hardware. | 10:55 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Check his sig.. | 10:56 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Well, then this has to be elevated all the way to whoever has sway on hardware design | 10:56 |
| johnx | RST38h, AFAICT maemo software got handed this design from "maemo" hardware and were told: "here. run with it." | 10:56 |
| RST38h | johnx: Then this has to be elevated to the right person | 10:56 |
| johnx | and I think you know as well as anyone that it's a little late for a hardware change | 10:56 |
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| johnx | this hardware was pretty close to final circa june or so if not a lot earlier | 10:56 |
| RST38h | johnx: Jaaksi or whoever is responsible for crippling the buttons | 10:56 |
| aquatix | RST38h: hm, the back? | 10:57 |
| RST38h | aquatix: Well, the front is taken by the screen, placing them at the keyboard is goign to be cumbersome | 10:57 |
| RST38h | aquatix: The back looks like the only comfortable place for them | 10:57 |
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| Mek | just create a custom battery cover that has those buttons? :) | 10:57 |
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| aquatix | RST38h: it's just a new-ish concept for me | 10:58 |
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| kirma | I still think that reduction of buttons is really partly a method to make software developers think of the user experience and interfaces from average phone user perspective, instead of making it too easy to transfer "linux habits" to the platform and alienate majority of mass market from it | 10:58 |
| johnx | can't imagine a non wrist-destroying way to put those buttons on the back | 10:58 |
| kirma | communicator keyboard would be more troubling than good in that perspective | 10:59 |
| kirma | although certainly that's not the only/primary reason for the keyboard... | 10:59 |
| kirma | phone software that relies on up/down keys on phone that has touchscreen and orientation sensor is plainly bad usability | 10:59 |
| RST38h | kirma: Method, shmethod, the result is the gaming use case becoming roadkill | 11:00 |
| RST38h | johnx: Imagine holding tablet like you would hold a digital camera | 11:00 |
| RST38h | johnx: Where your right hand fingers would be? | 11:00 |
| X-Fade | It is a big debate if you want to support legacy games or now. You see it with PS3 too, they stopped supporting PS2 games. | 11:00 |
| X-Fade | Some people hate that, other people don't care. | 11:00 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: We are not talking legacy games | 11:00 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: We are talking ANY game, past, present or future, requiring precise directional control | 11:01 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Well new games can be designed around certain features, old games can't. | 11:01 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: This covers whole game genres, like platform games | 11:01 |
| X-Fade | It is an option at least. | 11:01 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: No they can't | 11:01 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: If you provided some OTHER method for precise control, they the new games could be designed to use it | 11:02 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: But there is no any other method. Accelerator based control cannot be made precise. touchscreen based control does not provide tactile feedback to the user and obscures the image | 11:02 |
| qole | The arrow keys on the N900 are better than the D-Pad on the N800 | 11:03 |
| RST38h | qole: Except you do not get all 4 on every keyboard :) | 11:03 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Well you have quite some keys on the keyboard left, so not a problem yet ;) | 11:03 |
| johnx | gotta go with X-Fade on this one | 11:03 |
| qole | RST38h, Well, then you all got to get the keyboard that has all four. | 11:03 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: See, rather than go into all these deeply conceptual philosophical discussions about new paradigms of gaming, why not just provide a freaking dpad? :) | 11:04 |
| johnx | I counted at least 24 or so keys on the keyboard | 11:04 |
| qole | RST38h, DPads are so 1998 | 11:04 |
| RST38h | qole: Yea, let us buy them in US and resell them to these poor Finns ;) | 11:04 |
| RST38h | qole: Your toilet bowl is so XIX century...But you still hmmm use it, don't you? | 11:04 |
| johnx | RST38h, you've just opened up a dangerous topic :) | 11:05 |
| aquatix | RST38h: otoh, directional buttons on the backside can't be pressed by the thumbs, which are the usual digits used for this | 11:05 |
| RST38h | johnx: well, I did not mention vim this time =) | 11:05 |
| aquatix | not sure whether that matters, might even help against straining thumbs too much :) | 11:05 |
| qole | RST38h, I sh*t in a hole when I'm backpacking in the mountains | 11:05 |
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| johnx | RST38h, heh, guess that's why I'm not cranky: I have my vim arrow keys | 11:06 |
| X-Fade | qole: too much information.. | 11:06 |
| johnx | maybe this is the break vim needs to get really popular among tablet users :> | 11:06 |
| qole | I wasn't the one who introduced the toilet to the conversation | 11:06 |
| X-Fade | qole: But you one-upped it ;) | 11:06 |
| RST38h | qole: I do not want to shit in the hole for my whole life, just because some eggheaded suit said that the toilets are so 1998 | 11:06 |
| * RST38h mentioned vim now. RUn FOR THE HILLS! | 11:07 | |
| qole | Oh sorry, this was a metaphor. For what again? | 11:07 |
| johnx | and seriously I can't figure out how to hold my hands to make it comfortable to press something d-pad shaped with my fingers on what would be the backside of a tablet | 11:07 |
| Myrtti | EMAACCSSS | 11:07 |
| johnx | have you tried prototyping it with some raised bumps or something? | 11:07 |
| qole | Get hold of an N900. Try the arrow keys. You'll be fine. | 11:08 |
| qole | Get hold of an N900. Try the arrow keys. You'll be fine. | 11:08 |
| RST38h | johnx: Not yet, frankly I do not believe this activity will produce any result from nokia | 11:08 |
| qole | Whoa. Double post. | 11:08 |
| RST38h | qole: Go to t.m.o, read people from non-American countries bitching about arrow keys missing. | 11:08 |
| qole | I'm not from the US either | 11:09 |
| johnx | RST38h, yeah, also: I did try out the way to hold my hands for that: that's gonna be some serious wrist damage after ~30 minutes I think | 11:09 |
| Stskeeps | just remap them in your game. end of story. | 11:09 |
| RST38h | qole: Canada applies. | 11:09 |
| qole | I used a device from Finland ;-) | 11:09 |
| RST38h | qole: And it had all four arrows? | 11:09 |
| qole | Absoshmutely | 11:09 |
| RST38h | qole: Not the final device then | 11:09 |
| qole | Bottom right hand corner | 11:09 |
| jaska | well, one can always remap so massive whining is unnecessary | 11:10 |
| qole | You've seen the final device??! | 11:10 |
| RST38h | qole: A moment | 11:10 |
| johnx | qole, scroll up to the link :) | 11:10 |
| RST38h | qole <-- been out of the loop apparently | 11:10 |
| qole | The less-than-final device that I saw had all the arrow keys | 11:11 |
| Mek | the spanish version I played with some months ago had the only two buttons for arrows, the english prototypes I've played with did had the 4 buttons... | 11:11 |
| qole | Why would they take the arrow keys away | 11:11 |
| jaska | to allow for silly accented chars/umlauts | 11:11 |
| RST38h | qole: Because they apparently hate the arrow keys | 11:11 |
| X-Fade | qole: You saw an international device, those have the arrow keys. | 11:11 |
| RST38h | qole: As you initially said "dpad is so 1998" | 11:11 |
| qole | RST38h, damn you, this is your fault. | 11:12 |
| Stskeeps | remap.. we have XKB for a reason | 11:12 |
| johnx | qole, I blame him too | 11:12 |
| RST38h | qole: Yea, I am evil | 11:12 |
| * RST38h swallows a lab mouse alive | 11:12 | |
| johnx | RST38h, gimme back my arrows ya darn Ruskie! | 11:12 |
| qole | RST38h, everything was fine until you came along and took away our arrow keys | 11:12 |
| jaska | and return karelia while youre at it! | 11:12 |
| RST38h | johnx: Blame the finns, I have not seen the cyrillic keyboard yet | 11:12 |
| qole | RST38h, and tell us where Elvis is hiding | 11:13 |
| johnx | brainstorm: go to RST38h's house and get our arrow keys back! | 11:13 |
| RST38h | jaska: Only if you promise to get rid of the mosquitoes | 11:13 |
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| Khertan | Hello everybody ! | 11:13 |
| jaska | could always move the mosquitoes into lappland... plenty there | 11:14 |
| qole | Khertan, have you seen the missing arrow keys? | 11:14 |
| RST38h | jaska: Mosquitoes magically disappear once the train crosses the border into .fi | 11:14 |
| Khertan | the missing arrow keys ? | 11:14 |
| Khertan | gnié ? | 11:14 |
| jaska | strange | 11:14 |
| RST38h | jaska: The nature of this phenomenon is unknown | 11:14 |
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| qole | Khertan, we think RS38h has absconded with arrow keys from the final N900 device. | 11:15 |
| jaska | perhaps the cell tower density is higher on this side, or the blood of finns tastes like shit | 11:15 |
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| suihkulokki | RST38h: you should try travelling the northern parts of .fi if you think we are mosquito-free :P | 11:16 |
| qole | All About Symbian tweets, "Winner Apps on Map in Mobile Innovators was Primordial Ground Guidance. Navigating when no roads. Intelligent routing." | 11:16 |
| johnx | qole, he's been embezzling them a little at a time | 11:17 |
| johnx | that's why there's only two on some devices | 11:17 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki: Oh I am sure you have got some | 11:17 |
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| Captain_Picard | there are plenty victims on the russian side for the mosquitoes | 11:20 |
| RST38h | not in karelia | 11:21 |
| Captain_Picard | we use OFF :P | 11:21 |
| qole | Well, if there's nothing exciting Maemo-related at Nokia World 2009 so far, I'm going to bed and I'll find out what's up tomorrow morning. | 11:21 |
| Captain_Picard | and RAID | 11:21 |
| suihkulokki | RST38h: it's not just some.. there are gazzillions.. try karhunkierros trail for the fun :) | 11:21 |
| qole | I keep thinking there'll be another shoe to drop at Nokia World and I don't want to be sleeping when it happens | 11:21 |
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| suihkulokki | back to the lost arrow keys and the d-pads | 11:22 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki: I grew up in Ural, so I know what you mean =) | 11:22 |
| suihkulokki | while I hate loosing them, honestly the n800/n810 d-pad were too crappy to be used for any serious gaming | 11:23 |
| RST38h | true | 11:23 |
| RST38h | n97 too btw | 11:23 |
| kirma | I really wonder how I get used to size of N900. and the thing is that it's *too small* :) | 11:24 |
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| kirma | I wonder what kind of hands those size/thickness appl... fanatics have | 11:24 |
| RST38h | kirma: they use tongue | 11:24 |
| Corsac | kirma: yeah, I wonder if it wont be too small and too thick | 11:25 |
| RST38h | apple ones definitely use tongue | 11:25 |
| Corsac | but it really *need* to come out soon | 11:25 |
| Corsac | because I dreamed I had an n900 this night | 11:25 |
| qole | suihkulokki: Yes! The NIT's D-Pads were useless. | 11:25 |
| kirma | E70 and E90 have been great fit for my hands, but at flagship store I felt all the time that if I try to hold N900 in a way that I can achieve things nicely, it's going to slip to the floor between my fingers :) | 11:25 |
| Corsac | … | 11:25 |
| johnx | qole, not only that but got worse in every iteration | 11:25 |
| RST38h | kirma: same with n810 really | 11:25 |
| johnx | that's what makes me insane | 11:25 |
| qole | My friend told me that the N900's screen is so beautiful that he wanted to lick it. A few beers later, he did. :-P | 11:26 |
| X-Fade | kirma: drill a hole in the casing and attach to lanyard? :) | 11:26 |
| suihkulokki | we should put some tiny amounts of lsd on the touchscreen | 11:26 |
| kirma | well. I don't have gigantic hands, but certainly at almost two meters tall, not very delicate oriental or southern european pygmy hands either. N810 felt quite ok to me... ;> | 11:26 |
| jaska | lol | 11:26 |
| kirma | qole: and then the touchscreen functionality died? ;) | 11:27 |
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| kirma | did he also try if it fits to a pint? | 11:27 |
| kirma | it has occured several times that friends have demonstrated phones... "but look, it's still too big to fit into a pint!" | 11:28 |
| kirma | *blup* | 11:28 |
| qole | The N900's screen makes the iPhone's screen look like a GameBoy. Seriously. http://maemo.org/community/council/the_n900_from_a_community_perspective/ | 11:28 |
| suihkulokki | now that we have so many finns here, let me remind you all to come to free thursday on next week ;) | 11:28 |
| kirma | suihkulokki: hmm hmm? | 11:28 |
| RST38h | qole: Same can be said about n810 screen really | 11:28 |
| qole | Imagine the N810's screen compressed to the size of an iPhone screen. | 11:29 |
| qole | SPECTACULAR DPI | 11:29 |
| RST38h | qole: I would rather keep it the original size though :) | 11:29 |
| kirma | open source gathering thing that was once in angleterre? only thing I associate now... | 11:29 |
| RST38h | Not much use for this dpi, when reading :( | 11:29 |
| suihkulokki | kirma: http://free-thursday.pieni.net/ | 11:29 |
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| qole | RST38h, since it is the same resolution, just hold it closer to your face | 11:29 |
| RST38h | hmmm | 11:30 |
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| RST38h | true, although that would be too close =( | 11:30 |
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| kirma | suihkulokki: hmmmmmm. | 11:30 |
| Stskeeps | you want to be able to lick the lsd off your n900 anyway | 11:30 |
| kirma | I thought "free" was literally... "free beer" of course :) | 11:31 |
| suihkulokki | no free beer.. just free speech =) | 11:31 |
| qole | Well, I'm finished my beer for the night, and since there's nothing new Maemo related, I'm going to bed. | 11:32 |
| Khertan | someone receive mail about summit sponsorship ? | 11:32 |
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| Stskeeps | Khertan: not yet | 11:32 |
| qole | Khertan, I hope you receive more mails than that. | 11:33 |
| qole | Good night all | 11:34 |
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| Khertan | http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo_summit_2009-sponsorship_window_ends_september_9th/ | 11:35 |
| Khertan | Many of the requests have already been processed and some of you will already have received emails indicating your sponsorship status. | 11:35 |
| Captain_Picard | One humourous note; opening and closing apps is accompanied by such human-sounding “whshhht” and “fshhhht” sounds that people look at you, wondering why you're making those funny noises with your mouth. | 11:35 |
| Khertan | this is why i ask | 11:38 |
| Khertan | [10:33] <qole> Khertan, I hope you receive more mails than that. <<< yeah many for blue pills ... | 11:38 |
| Corsac | what about red pills? | 11:39 |
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| Stskeeps | Khertan: yeah that one wonders me a bit too | 11:41 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: Afaik, only rejections have been sent out. | 11:43 |
| Proteous | why why why does the LG Chocolate display all the text in comic sans | 11:43 |
| Proteous | like wtf | 11:43 |
| Proteous | lol | 11:43 |
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| jaska | comic sans? design by satan(tm) | 11:44 |
| Proteous | that typeface needs to die | 11:44 |
| Proteous | preferable a slow painfull death | 11:44 |
| * RST38h likes Comic | 11:45 | |
| RST38h | Comic is perfect for application names in About boxes | 11:45 |
| * Proteous beats RST38h senseless | 11:45 | |
| Proteous | it really only has one application, text bubbles in a comic | 11:46 |
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| * RST38h changes Proteous' window titles to Comic | 11:46 | |
| * Proteous dies a little | 11:46 | |
| X-Fade | Comic ranks up there with Wordart. | 11:46 |
| RST38h | Proteous: Ironically, no. Comic is too large for text bubbles | 11:46 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: ah | 11:46 |
| RST38h | Proteous: And when you shrink it to necessary size, the letters look squished | 11:46 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: I see now 'accepted' fields set in the db yet at least. | 11:47 |
| Proteous | it really is amazing isn't it | 11:47 |
| RST38h | (in other words, it needs more pixels than a normal font would) | 11:47 |
| Khertan | hum ... keyboard and screen doesn't unlock anymore when opening keyboard | 11:47 |
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| Stskeeps | wb lardman_ | 11:49 |
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| lardman|home | hi Stskeeps | 11:49 |
| lardman|home | anything exciting going on? | 11:50 |
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| lardman|home | derf: ping | 11:51 |
| derf | lardman|home: Pong. | 11:51 |
| RST38h | heya lardman, derf, zap | 11:52 |
| lardman|home | hi RST38h | 11:52 |
| lardman|home | derf: is your QR code in zbar working? | 11:52 |
| lardman|home | derf: it's not in the 0.9 release of a few days ago | 11:52 |
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| derf | Yes, though I think it's still on a branch. | 11:52 |
| lardman|home | ok, I'll try grabbing the svn and building from that | 11:54 |
| derf | hg clone http://zbar.hg.sourceforge.net:8000/hgroot/zbar zbar-qr | 11:54 |
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| derf | cd zbar-qr | 11:54 |
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| derf | hg update qr | 11:54 |
| lardman|home | ok cool, what did you base it on? | 11:54 |
| lardman|home | i.e. which version of zbar | 11:54 |
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| derf | Whatever was current back in early July. | 11:55 |
| lardman|home | ok, 0.8 iirc | 11:55 |
| Khertan | someone know where i can found internal picture of the n810 ? | 11:55 |
| derf | And spadix is the one really doing all the work. | 11:55 |
| lardman|home | spadix is Rob? | 11:56 |
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| derf | Jeff Brown I think? | 11:56 |
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| lardman|home | ah, that might be the one - just from looking at the site yesterday | 11:57 |
| lardman|home | ok cheers | 11:57 |
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| derf | I saw you playing with pyGTK last night and hoped that's what you were working on. | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | Khertan: google n810 schematics i think | 11:57 |
| lardman|home | yep, I have the code pretty much working under python now | 11:58 |
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| lardman|home | at least the gui is now up | 11:58 |
| lardman|home | have to trim the string containing the image data to get rid of the UV planes, and then see if zbar will accept it | 11:58 |
| Khertan | thx Stskeeps | 11:59 |
| lardman|home | derf: also want to add in datamatrix decoding, as we see those quite often over here | 12:00 |
| X-Fade | lardman|home: Do you also estimate the angle and try to compensate for that? | 12:01 |
| lardman|home | no, I've left the decoding to the library | 12:01 |
| derf | Yeah, we talked about that a bit, but it's just talk at this point. | 12:01 |
| lardman|home | but the libs have to do that yes | 12:01 |
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| Captain_Picard | I WANT ARROW KEYS | 12:12 |
| timeless_mbp | his first question after using my en key layout was "where are the :a, :o, and 0a keys" | 12:13 |
| timeless_mbp | Captain_Picard: so use the en keyboard layout | 12:13 |
| timeless_mbp | (and buy / demand that your seller give you the en keymap) | 12:13 |
| julianoliver | timeless_mbp: hehe. they have an amazing alphabet. | 12:13 |
| till- | yeah because thats missing | 12:13 |
| julianoliver | language is almost phonetic also | 12:13 |
| till- | *they're | 12:13 |
| timeless_mbp | till-: i suggested he turn on secondary dictionary language (suomi) | 12:13 |
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