| Stskeeps | and standing with a tablet you probably look like some kind of freak :P | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| khertan | i ve found a example : http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-May/260937.html | 00:00 |
| khertan | scapy ... what that's ? | 00:00 |
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| woglinde | wireshark for python | 00:00 |
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| zerojay | If you knew me, you'd know i dont need it to look like a freak, lol | 00:00 |
| zerojay | But yes. | 00:00 |
| khertan | woglinde: oh nice | 00:00 |
| woglinde | khertan hm | 00:01 |
| * Woolly has more irn bru | 00:01 | |
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| *** jhford is now known as zz_jhford | 00:01 | |
| * ShellEvil has no irn bru. | 00:01 | |
| Jaffa | ev'ning | 00:01 |
| * Woolly laughs | 00:01 | |
| Woolly | hey Jaffa | 00:01 |
| khertan | woglinde: could i see the code ... maybe i ll understand :) | 00:02 |
| woglinde | yes | 00:02 |
| woglinde | http://pastebin.com/mda7b27a | 00:02 |
| ShellEvil | Stskeeps: not nearly as much as walking and smacking into something. | 00:03 |
| ShellEvil | http://groups.google.com/group/comp.dcom.telecom/browse_thread/thread/ee8fe28cdcd06ed3 | 00:03 |
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| Stskeeps | ShellEvil: yeah, i tend to do that with or without tablet | 00:04 |
| khertan | woglinde: it s a threading.Threads, isn't it ? | 00:04 |
| woglinde | khertan yes it is | 00:04 |
| Woolly | ooooh sqlite3 | 00:04 |
| woglinde | woolly hm yes | 00:04 |
| Woolly | woglinde: what's up? | 00:04 |
| woglinde | woolly for the moment | 00:04 |
| woglinde | sqlite3 | 00:05 |
| Woolly | what's it saying? | 00:05 |
| woglinde | hm???? | 00:05 |
| khertan | let me a moment i'm trying to look at the scapy api | 00:05 |
| Stskeeps | scary, zfs-fuse actually seems to work | 00:05 |
| ShadowJK | walking and smackin into something... I do that alot | 00:05 |
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| woglinde | I thought you meant my code at pastebin | 00:05 |
| ShadowJK | most annoying when it makes mp3 player/phone/whatever skip to next podcast | 00:06 |
| ShadowJK | but I discovered last week that S60 media player is smart enough to remember where you were in the last podcast, and resumed from there | 00:06 |
| Woolly | oh oh oh King of Queens is on! | 00:07 |
| woglinde | khertan I put the comment in the code | 00:08 |
| khertan | ok | 00:09 |
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| sivang | hi again | 00:09 |
| woglinde | kerthan -> (while(true) loop inside sniff only breaks at keyboradInterrupt) | 00:09 |
| woglinde | kerthan I want this in a thread so I can start stoping sniffing and dont have the db connection open all the time | 00:10 |
| woglinde | hm but maybee I have to rethink it | 00:11 |
| sivang | having an x86 complication target means that nokia will also elease x86 bbased phones? | 00:11 |
| ShadowJK | GeneralAntilles, how fast is too fast? (re xchat) | 00:11 |
| ShadowJK | having an x86 compilation target means you can test on PC? ;) | 00:12 |
| * zerojay yawns. | 00:12 | |
| khertan | to be honest i didn't understand what you are trying to do ... | 00:12 |
| woglinde | khertan ???? | 00:12 |
| woglinde | khertan I want sniffig and to start and stop it via telnet interface | 00:13 |
| sivang | ShadowJK: indeed | 00:13 |
| khertan | ok | 00:13 |
| sivang | ShadowJK: that's the whole idea I guess with the scratchbox and the SDK | 00:13 |
| sivang | nice to see the amounts of python :) | 00:13 |
| ShadowJK | sivang, I think we're more likely to see an ARM based netbook instead of x86 based phone :) | 00:13 |
| ShadowJK | Nokia loves python, you can use it on maemo, you can use it on symbian ;-) | 00:14 |
| sivang | ShadowJK: you a nokia developer ? | 00:14 |
| ShadowJK | No. | 00:14 |
| sivang | ShadowJK: since when did they start loving python ? | 00:14 |
| ShadowJK | Not sure. I discovered it around 2007, iirc | 00:15 |
| ShadowJK | (that I could run python on my symbian phone) | 00:15 |
| sivang | is there a way to get preshipped n900s for people with development backgroudn for testing and refining purposes? | 00:15 |
| zerojay | Nokia didn't provide python on the tablets. | 00:16 |
| zerojay | You aren't getting them any faster than we are. | 00:16 |
| zerojay | Weasel. ;) | 00:16 |
| * sivang is a former ubuntu developer with pygtk and python experience | 00:16 | |
| sivang | zerojay: "we" ? | 00:17 |
| zerojay | No dev program has been announced yet. | 00:17 |
| zerojay | Yes, we. | 00:17 |
| sivang | we = ? | 00:17 |
| Woolly | me! | 00:17 |
| zerojay | As in everyone else in the room. | 00:17 |
| ShadowJK | sivang, you, us, everyone | 00:17 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: probably good to wait a little to make sure people -really really- want one :P | 00:18 |
| ShadowJK | sivang, it's past midnight on a friday evening in finland. There are not many Nokia people around right now :) | 00:18 |
| zerojay | When the dev device program is announced... If it will be. | 00:18 |
| sivang | whre do I subscribe to the announcement ? | 00:18 |
| * Stskeeps hopes one will be announced | 00:18 | |
| * ShellEvil also. | 00:18 | |
| zerojay | Til then, gotta wait. | 00:18 |
| khertan | woglinde: it s seems i'm too tired ... i didn't understand nothing at their documentation | 00:19 |
| zerojay | Too early for that even. | 00:19 |
| khertan | i ll look at it an other day ... sorry | 00:19 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: the usual programme bases on your maemo.org 'karma'. this is developed over time due to your contribution to the community, AFAIK | 00:19 |
| ShadowJK | My guess would be, that if one is announced, your chances are improved if you have a neat application ready and working in the SDK ;) | 00:19 |
| woglinde | khertan scapy? | 00:19 |
| khertan | yep | 00:20 |
| woglinde | hm | 00:20 |
| Firebird | ping? | 00:20 |
| woglinde | its not scapy alone | 00:20 |
| woglinde | I could rewrite it with out scapy | 00:20 |
| * Firebird sees an ever growing block of nothing in xchat which I suspect are messages... too bad I can't see them | 00:20 | |
| woglinde | mom | 00:20 |
| khertan | ok i just undestand ... that it s not a module | 00:20 |
| khertan | lol | 00:20 |
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| sivang | what areas needs work ? | 00:21 |
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| ShadowJK | Firebird, messed up colour schemes? | 00:21 |
| sivang | is there a way to bug fix stuff before the release ofthe hardware? | 00:21 |
| Firebird | no, it was just totally blank, couldn't even highlight it | 00:21 |
| zerojay | Sdk | 00:21 |
| ShellEvil | Is there a qemu targer? | 00:21 |
| ShellEvil | t | 00:21 |
| woglinde | khertan -> http://pastebin.com/m47c02bb | 00:22 |
| zerojay | Fremantle beta 2 sdk is your friend. | 00:22 |
| sivang | zerojay: so if I want to develop an application that needs to have access to the audio transferred through the call, what do I do? | 00:22 |
| Firebird | can omap do fixed and floating point? | 00:23 |
| zerojay | You look up info on ofono. | 00:23 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: those details are not out on SDK yet - but qgil mentioned it on a talk.* thread where you might be able to do something | 00:23 |
| Stskeeps | zerojay: ofono isn't in fremantle | 00:23 |
| zerojay | No? | 00:23 |
| Stskeeps | AFAIK | 00:23 |
| zerojay | Don't know if we'll have access to call audio. | 00:24 |
| zerojay | Hope not. | 00:24 |
| Stskeeps | evil apps time or? :P | 00:24 |
| Stskeeps | not sure why you would want access to it really | 00:25 |
| zerojay | To record it. | 00:25 |
| zerojay | Without the other person's knowledge. | 00:25 |
| zerojay | Illegal in some countries. | 00:25 |
| ShadowJK | Also the "fuck off, telemarketers" button | 00:25 |
| Stskeeps | it's a tough discussion really | 00:26 |
| Stskeeps | i really wouldn't mind to have a timeline of calls, or able to hear the convo again, cos my memory is shot :) | 00:26 |
| ShadowJK | What are the chances of cellphone voice input/output being hooked up to line-in and line-out on the sound device? | 00:26 |
| sivang | I was actually thinking of a VoiceWiki applications | 00:26 |
| zerojay | Ask first then. ;) | 00:26 |
| sivang | much like tomboy, but using recorded notes | 00:26 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: oh, i would just use the microphone then :P | 00:27 |
| sivang | ah, so we have access tothe mic as a regular sound device in a PC ? | 00:27 |
| zerojay | We don't know. | 00:28 |
| zerojay | It's too early. | 00:28 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: big probability really - but on n8x0, it was a .. fairly regular sound device | 00:28 |
| sivang | cool | 00:28 |
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| sivang | I also have an idea of and automatic emergency call app | 00:29 |
| ArSa | there's an app for iPhone that can record calls in software, i don't think you need to go through all DAC-ADC excersise... | 00:29 |
| sivang | it will call 911 or the applicable in a given country | 00:29 |
| sivang | and talk to the operator your location using the n900's built in GPS | 00:30 |
| Stskeeps | often this comes along anyway in 911 calls | 00:30 |
| sivang | ofcourse we nee speech synthesizers for that | 00:30 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: how do you mean? | 00:30 |
| Stskeeps | no idea if N900 does it like that though | 00:30 |
| Stskeeps | google E911 | 00:30 |
| ArSa | in USA 911 already can do that even without gps, but you probably know that | 00:30 |
| ArSa | yeah, e911 | 00:31 |
| ArSa | not as accurate though | 00:31 |
| sivang | I'm in Israel, so I didn't know that :) | 00:31 |
| ArSa | same in most other countries too | 00:31 |
| ArSa | you can track people, it's a feature of many operators | 00:31 |
| Stskeeps | still, if there's a gps fix it could send it along i guess :P | 00:31 |
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| ArSa | but again, sometimes very inacurate | 00:31 |
| ShadowJK | Yeah in .fi the 112 (911 equiv.) can triangulate the caller's position | 00:31 |
| sivang | good for the developing countries :) | 00:32 |
| ArSa | gps would be better, i wonder if e911 has provision to send that stuff over too | 00:32 |
| ArSa | it does go the other way - A-GPS can piggyback on that data (well, not that - no triangulation, just base station position) | 00:33 |
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| simula | 112 is the international emergency GSM number if i'm not mistaken | 00:33 |
| zerojay | Not sure i wanna trust a program to call 911 for me. Heh | 00:33 |
| ArSa | well, i am assuming it's for cases when you can't take phone out | 00:34 |
| ArSa | which already works on most phones | 00:34 |
| sivang | what if you're a mute? | 00:34 |
| ArSa | sans actually yelling "help!" | 00:34 |
| ArSa | TTY :P | 00:34 |
| Stskeeps | augmented calls could be interesting though | 00:34 |
| Stskeeps | like, in general | 00:34 |
| ArSa | um | 00:34 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: ofcourse, there's pleathora of applications | 00:35 |
| ArSa | like google latitude? | 00:35 |
| Stskeeps | click a button to tell the other person your current position for instance >P | 00:35 |
| ArSa | it's augmented chatting | 00:35 |
| Stskeeps | auditory smilies! | 00:35 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 00:35 |
| sivang | heh | 00:35 |
| zerojay | Ew | 00:35 |
| sivang | what's google latitude ? | 00:35 |
| ShadowJK | Or ability to select some text in an email or web page and have voice synth read it up to the other person | 00:35 |
| zerojay | Don't worry, no one uses latitude. | 00:35 |
| ArSa | sivang lets you follow your friends on map | 00:35 |
| ArSa | yeah, it's very hardware-limited, so... | 00:36 |
| sivang | ah , I see | 00:36 |
| ArSa | can't run in background on iphone, and nobody has gphone yet | 00:36 |
| ArSa | would be a nice app for n900 though | 00:36 |
| javispedro | ability to make plain phone calls would be good too. | 00:36 |
| sivang | uses GSM data link ? | 00:36 |
| VDVsx | latitude is good for stalkers, at least ;) | 00:36 |
| ArSa | sivang of course, all map apps do now | 00:36 |
| ArSa | VDVsx are you saying that all google employees are stalkers? :P | 00:37 |
| sivang | well, you could have map stored on the machine, and use blutooth or something...ah no, you have to hav a GPS conneciton | 00:37 |
| ShadowJK | sivang, what's the situation in Israel, do phones support hebrew well? Do people use it? | 00:37 |
| sivang | ShadowJK: you mean, in text and UI ? | 00:37 |
| ArSa | simula bluetooth for what? | 00:38 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 00:38 |
| VDVsx | ArSa, depends if you are a gog employee or not, don't want to offend you ;) | 00:38 |
| simula | ArSa.. wasn't paying attention... what? | 00:38 |
| ArSa | sivang bluetooth for what? gps is not really a "connection" | 00:38 |
| VDVsx | just kidding | 00:38 |
| sivang | ShadowJK: yes, most models do support hebrew well and people are using it. | 00:38 |
| sivang | ArSa: sorry, I have no idea what I was talking about | 00:38 |
| ArSa | VDVsx i was too :) | 00:38 |
| sivang | ShadowJK: not sure if E71 supports it | 00:38 |
| Stskeeps | odd question - since there's some new mobile developers here - what kind of background / previous platforms were you at before? | 00:38 |
| ArSa | sivang "blutooth or something...ah no, you have to hav a GPS conneciton" - what's that about? | 00:38 |
| simula | Stskeeps... Qt :) | 00:39 |
| ArSa | Stskeeps .net | 00:39 |
| ArSa | i am doing pyqt on maemo though | 00:39 |
| sivang | ArSa: I thought you could locate friends using bluetooth, but that's nonsense | 00:39 |
| khertan | woglinde: still here ? | 00:39 |
| RST38h | moo all | 00:39 |
| khertan | woglinde: ping | 00:39 |
| ArSa | sivang oh, that. yeah, there are actually some apps like that, but it's not working far enough. | 00:40 |
| Stskeeps | ArSa: i think we should have pyside soon as well | 00:40 |
| ArSa | sivang they can tell you when your friends are in range | 00:40 |
| khertan | ~woglinde | 00:40 |
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| zerojay | Bluetooth is useless for that. | 00:40 |
| ShadowJK | sivang, that's possible, within 10 metres ;) | 00:40 |
| khertan | hum ... someone know the woglinde mail ? | 00:40 |
| sivang | ArSa: how can you triangulate someone's location based on bluetooth? | 00:40 |
| ArSa | sivang it doesn't | 00:40 |
| ArSa | just tells you they are close | 00:41 |
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| sivang | I come from PyGTK , should I learn pyqt instead if I want to develop for the N900 ? | 00:41 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: with a lot of infrastructure :/ | 00:41 |
| khertan | woglinde: http://pastebin.com/m2c800b1 | 00:41 |
| ShadowJK | Bluetooth has limited range. Maybe 10 metres (30ft). So you can tell if someone is close by or not | 00:41 |
| slonopotamus | is pyside useful at all? | 00:41 |
| sivang | Stskeeps: eh | 00:41 |
| slonopotamus | pyqt, no? | 00:41 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: (triangulate) | 00:41 |
| khertan | slonopotamus: when it will be available :) | 00:41 |
| khertan | good night | 00:41 |
| ArSa | Stskeeps well, it's interesting that there are two competing implementations for some reason. | 00:41 |
| slonopotamus | khertan, how it's better than qt? | 00:41 |
| sivang | are there translations projects for the stack already ? | 00:42 |
| ShadowJK | sivang, Maemo 5 freemantle on N900 will be GTK/Hildon based, with support for QT. Looks like GTK/Hildon will be the "primary" toolkit | 00:42 |
| slonopotamus | khertan, pyqt, i meant | 00:42 |
| sivang | ShadowJK: yay! | 00:42 |
| Stskeeps | however, they're going to switch to Qt in Harmattan | 00:42 |
| ShadowJK | in the long term nokia is moving to QT though | 00:42 |
| * sivang loves GTJ | 00:42 | |
| sivang | oh.. | 00:42 |
| * simula loves Qt | 00:42 | |
| Stskeeps | either one of them will be possible to use though | 00:42 |
| * slonopotamus loves his wife | 00:42 | |
| * sivang is single | 00:42 | |
| * Stskeeps glances at his wedding ring | 00:43 | |
| ArSa | i just want app to easily move between platforms, qt is kinda better for that for now. | 00:43 |
| Stskeeps | at least Maemo isn't picky | 00:43 |
| * sivang orders a pyqt book | 00:43 | |
| Stskeeps | if you were machocistic enough, you could go for wxwidgets probably, heh | 00:43 |
| * slonopotamus hates python | 00:43 | |
| ArSa | yeah, i know | 00:43 |
| ArSa | these are the only two choices for portable mobile stuff | 00:43 |
| sivang | I want to work on the os and applications, not neccessarily on UI, what should I Know for that? | 00:44 |
| ArSa | but wxwidgets symbian port got stuck | 00:44 |
| ArSa | sivang anything that is useful | 00:44 |
| Stskeeps | sivang: OS is the traditional unix hacker stuff :P shell script, C, etc.. | 00:44 |
| Stskeeps | applications in fremantle can be either qt or gtk | 00:44 |
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| ArSa | yeah, if you want to hack kernel you just need c | 00:44 |
| Stskeeps | and a crosscompiler, but yeah | 00:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 00:45 |
| ArSa | and a computer, but yeah :P | 00:45 |
| ShadowJK | I guess lcuk still compiles on device :) | 00:46 |
| Stskeeps | i think i have once tried to build maemo kernel on device | 00:46 |
| shazaum | maemo run pc? | 00:47 |
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| ArSa | that's nothing, i once tried transcoding a movie so i could watch it | 00:47 |
| sivang | Stskeeps, ArSa : cool | 00:47 |
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| ArSa | sivang if you are into books, there's actually a linux kernel book | 00:47 |
| sivang | does it have mono port ? | 00:48 |
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| sivang | ArSa: RML's ? | 00:48 |
| shazaum | anyone? | 00:48 |
| Stskeeps | shazaum: wiki.maemo.org/Mer sortof | 00:48 |
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| shazaum | Stskeeps tks | 00:48 |
| ArSa | http://www.amazon.com/Linux-Core-Kernel-Commentary-2nd/dp/1588801497/ | 00:49 |
| ArSa | saw that in a store long time ago, kinda funny | 00:49 |
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| sivang | I have RML's book | 00:51 |
| sivang | but it's not trivial to read it | 00:51 |
| ArSa | duh | 00:51 |
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| ArSa | but it's worth it, i remember reading Stroustrup's c++ book as my intro to the language. took a while. | 00:52 |
| sivang | ArSa: that's a master piece | 00:53 |
| ArSa | anyways. practice is better than reading. depends on your stage though, if you are at the point where you can RTFM or not. | 00:54 |
| ArSa | and stuff that you use has to be figureoutable | 00:55 |
| ArSa | unfortunately, there are lots of languages/api's that are not | 00:55 |
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| sivang | i see | 00:56 |
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| sivang | anybody know what this happens? http://paste.ubuntu.com/261169/ | 00:56 |
| sivang | something is messing with dbus ? | 00:57 |
| ArSa | not sure, you have x server running and configured? | 00:58 |
| ArSa | looks like dbus issue though, of course | 00:58 |
| sivang | yes, xephyr is running as instricted | 00:58 |
| sivang | instructed | 00:58 |
| ArSa | oh | 00:59 |
| ArSa | "Not enough memory to set up DBusConnection for use with GLib" | 00:59 |
| ArSa | hm... | 00:59 |
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| sivang | odd | 01:00 |
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| RST38h | ah, tear crashed! | 01:02 |
| RST38h | out of memory. | 01:02 |
| sivang | plenty of swap | 01:03 |
| sivang | 10MB free in ram | 01:03 |
| sivang | odd | 01:03 |
| RST38h | normal | 01:03 |
| sivang | normal tohave not enough ememory error ? | 01:04 |
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| RST38h | that too | 01:04 |
| ShadowJK | RST38h, swap disabled? | 01:05 |
| RST38h | yep | 01:06 |
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| RST38h | btw know why talk pages are so large | 01:06 |
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| lardman | evening all | 01:06 |
| javispedro | hi | 01:06 |
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| woglinde | jo lardman | 01:07 |
| RST38h | if any of you know reggie ask him to switch to the old urchin.js for google anallytics | 01:07 |
| javispedro | bah, the fake multitouch in n8x0 is useless. | 01:07 |
| lardman | anything exciting happened today? ;) | 01:07 |
| lardman | javispedro: which app? | 01:08 |
| RST38h | i would tell him myself but i am nobody to him | 01:08 |
| jeremiah | Nothing bacon related. | 01:08 |
| RST38h | moo lardmannn | 01:08 |
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| javispedro | lardman, my own... | 01:08 |
| lardman | jeremiah: :D | 01:08 |
| jeremiah | :] | 01:08 |
| zerojay | Bacon? | 01:08 |
| lardman | javispedro: ah, what are you trying? | 01:08 |
| lardman | zerojay: where my nick came from | 01:08 |
| javispedro | mostly what liqbase does, | 01:09 |
| lardman | zerojay: could only cook egg & bacon when I went to uni, so was known as lardman due to my cooking | 01:09 |
| javispedro | trying to use the fact that the screen registers two-presses as the average of both | 01:09 |
| javispedro | but that's far from true | 01:09 |
| zerojay | Lol | 01:09 |
| jeremiah | lardman: Oh, is that where it came from? | 01:09 |
| jeremiah | Didn't know that. | 01:09 |
| zerojay | I'm just fat, lol | 01:09 |
| lardman | yeah, I'm not all that lardy really | 01:09 |
| jeremiah | heh | 01:09 |
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| lardman | though I'll work on it over the summit with food & beer :) | 01:10 |
| jeremiah | Lard has lost its fashion cache | 01:10 |
| *** croppa has joined #maemo | 01:10 | |
| jeremiah | Oh yeah, forget about it. | 01:10 |
| lardman | it'll come back in | 01:10 |
| jeremiah | Amsterdam has great beers and great bars | 01:10 |
| jeremiah | Can't wait. | 01:10 |
| * zerojay is large and in charge or something like that. | 01:10 | |
| jeremiah | Reminds me, should work on my presentation | 01:10 |
| lardman | I've only been there once before and only for a day or so, should be good | 01:10 |
| lardman | :) | 01:10 |
| RichiH | off topic, but can anyone tell me where to copy music files on a E75? | 01:11 |
| * mgedmin remembers this one sushi bar in Amsterdam quite fondly | 01:11 | |
| RichiH | none of the directories on the phone seem as if they were the right choce | 01:11 |
| lardman | javispedro: I understand the averaging bit, but what are you using it for? | 01:11 |
| RichiH | choice, too | 01:11 |
| RST38h | richi: e:/music | 01:11 |
| RichiH | there is not music/, only a Sounds/ | 01:11 |
| RST38h | sounds/ will do | 01:12 |
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| javispedro | lardman, ability to press two onscreen buttons at once, knowing which one is the first. | 01:12 |
| lardman | ah | 01:12 |
| RST38h | although you can make yolur own dir | 01:12 |
| RichiH | RST38h: in that case, i will create music/ and just try | 01:13 |
| lardman | javispedro: and the "average" point is not actually half way between, depending on how much pressure the user has on each finger I guess? | 01:13 |
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| lardman | which also changes as they press the second no doubt :) | 01:13 |
| javispedro | not only that, but the weights are different for x and y. | 01:13 |
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| lardman | really? that's odd | 01:14 |
| javispedro | i currently do a quick loop over all onscreen to widgets then modify their "virtual" position with an algoritm that depends on pressure, distance from the current point, and experimental constants ;) | 01:14 |
| javispedro | (where current point is initial press x,y) | 01:14 |
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| javispedro | because the more farther away the two presses are, the more near the initial point the average is. | 01:16 |
| lardman | is that just due to the pressure? | 01:16 |
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| javispedro | I do bit presses with a stylus currently. | 01:17 |
| javispedro | *both presses. | 01:17 |
| javispedro | hm. Why I have this feeling presses is not the word I want. | 01:17 |
| lardman | still if you press one harder if will appear closer to that one I guess? | 01:17 |
| javispedro | true. | 01:17 |
| lardman | no, press(es) is right | 01:17 |
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| lardman | a press, etc. You could say tap, but that indicates a quick movement | 01:18 |
| javispedro | ok :) | 01:18 |
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| lardman | javispedro: have you talked with lcuk? He was testing multitouch a while back | 01:19 |
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| * lcuk burps | 01:21 | |
| mgedmin | tap = press + small pause + release | 01:21 |
| lardman | yeah, was just looking to see if you were in the userlist :) | 01:21 |
| javispedro | heh | 01:21 |
| lcuk | "the hangover" is a wicked movie | 01:21 |
| lardman | movie or general feeling for tomorrow morning? | 01:21 |
| lcuk | movie itself | 01:22 |
| javispedro | heh. Totally true. | 01:22 |
| lcuk | gonna get some wicked code in tonight | 01:22 |
| lardman | wine or beer? | 01:22 |
| RichiH | RST38h: nope, just creating a music/ did not work | 01:22 |
| zerojay | Work for what? | 01:23 |
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| VDVsx | OT: anyone knows a tool to monitor the external connections that an website makes when loading ? FF add-on, ... | 01:24 |
| javispedro | bah, removing all my "hidden constants" from the code, and testing again with two stylus results in 100% precision | 01:24 |
| javispedro | so it's a pressure thing. | 01:24 |
| javispedro | (cause seems the digitizer has a hard time calculating the stylus pressure, I guess it uses contact area?) | 01:25 |
| lardman | VDVsx: no, but you could just monitor all the TCP connections and see which ones are used | 01:25 |
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| zerojay | Iptraf is good for that. | 01:26 |
| RichiH | zerojay: i have a e75 and i have _no_ idea how to put music onto this damned thing | 01:27 |
| johnsq | VDVsx: tcpdump port 80 | 01:27 |
| RichiH | the fact that imap on the e75 is totally broken does not help to improve my mood ;) | 01:27 |
| ShadowJK | RichiH, i used bluetooth to transfer files :) | 01:28 |
| ShadowJK | except it's a bit slow | 01:28 |
| VDVsx | thanks lardman & johnsq | 01:28 |
| ShadowJK | so I just put the memory card in my computer instead :/ | 01:28 |
| * ShadowJK has a E75 too | 01:28 | |
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| mgedmin | VDVsx: firebug | 01:28 |
| ShadowJK | I haven't tried imap, because my imap server is behind a OpenVPN server, and there are no openvpn clients for symbian :/ | 01:28 |
| mgedmin | it's an awesome firefox addon | 01:28 |
| * mgedmin likes his imap to be tunneled over ssh | 01:29 | |
| VDVsx | mgedmin, I have it :) | 01:29 |
| ShadowJK | mgedmin, oh yeah, that would work too | 01:29 |
| ShadowJK | I have to find the time to set it up on my phone though :) | 01:29 |
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| mgedmin | what I do (for mailers that allow it) is use my ssh pubkey to authenticate with the imap server | 01:30 |
| mgedmin | no need to store passwords in plaintext, ssh passphrase gets cached by ssh-agent | 01:30 |
| mgedmin | sadly, very few mailers support this | 01:30 |
| mgedmin | offlineimap and evolution basically | 01:30 |
| mgedmin | and evolution sucks | 01:30 |
| ShadowJK | indeed | 01:30 |
| lardman | RichiH: how or where? | 01:31 |
| ShadowJK | I don't trust my imap server, that's why it's not accessible via public internet | 01:31 |
| johnsq | wauw n900 is more expensive as first sayed, which idiot buys this? | 01:31 |
| lardman | RichiH: you may find it scans the memory card automatically when it's remounted, as for how, what about a usb/BT connection + the Nokia app? | 01:31 |
| lardman | johnsq: where's that from? | 01:31 |
| RichiH | lardman: i know it rescans, but it did not find my mp3s | 01:32 |
| johnsq | http://www.engadget.com/2009/08/28/nokia-n900-now-giving-germany-and-italy-a-way-to-pre-order/ | 01:32 |
| lardman | ah, interesting | 01:32 |
| RichiH | i used usb, mass storage mode & normal mounting | 01:32 |
| VDVsx | mgedmin, great :), thanks | 01:32 |
| RichiH | as i don't have wino | 01:32 |
| lardman | RichiH: that was for you btw | 01:32 |
| RichiH | as i don't have windows, there is no nokia pps for me | 01:32 |
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| lardman | RichiH: in which case I have no idea, having an old and crappy phone | 01:32 |
| mgedmin | is that 600 EUR including VAT? | 01:32 |
| johnsq | mgedmin: in germany it normaly must be inc. VAT | 01:33 |
| lardman | johnsq: yeah, it's ~99euros more expensive iirc -> local taxes as it said in the initial announcement | 01:33 |
| mgedmin | because the nokia press release said "price expected to be 500 EUR, not including VAT/sales tax" | 01:33 |
| RichiH | lardman: pity. thanks, though | 01:33 |
| ShadowJK | The 500E was excl VAT | 01:33 |
| johnsq | lardman: i thought this price is very much too high for a phone which is 1/2 year out of date | 01:33 |
| RichiH | 19% VAT in .de | 01:33 |
| mgedmin | it was shortened to just "about 500 EUR" when quoted in various blogs, though | 01:33 |
| RichiH | 500 + 500/100*19 ~ 599 | 01:34 |
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| lardman | johnsq: out of date?! | 01:35 |
| lardman | what do you mean? | 01:36 |
| johnsq | lardman: some better phones are comeing for sure. | 01:36 |
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| RichiH | also, i heard people talk about community vouchers or some such for the n900? | 01:36 |
| lardman | people were wondering if there would be any | 01:36 |
| lardman | no news | 01:36 |
| qwerty12_N810 | lardman: it's using an OMAP3 instead of an OMAP4, it's OLD | 01:36 |
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| lardman | qwerty12_N810: lol :) | 01:36 |
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| sivang | so, it's running | 01:37 |
| sivang | now what can I do with it? | 01:37 |
| lardman | what is it? | 01:37 |
| sivang | the UI inside scratchbox :) | 01:37 |
| lardman | ah ok | 01:38 |
| lardman | run your app | 01:38 |
| lcuk | theres a ui? | 01:38 |
| sivang | I also executed the status , but no status appears | 01:38 |
| lardman | lcuk: yeah, not very exciting though | 01:38 |
| lcuk | can you touch it? | 01:38 |
| sivang | using the mouse | 01:38 |
| lardman | only if you have a touch screen PC ;) | 01:38 |
| lcuk | oh, cute | 01:38 |
| lcuk | should setup vnc server on it | 01:39 |
| lcuk | and run vncclient from tablet | 01:39 |
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| lcuk | get a much better feel for things | 01:39 |
| lardman | lcuk: I guess we're talking about diablo here | 01:40 |
| javispedro | it's out of date already, resistencitive screens are so last century.. | 01:40 |
| lcuk | whats wrong with resistive | 01:40 |
| sivang | so, how can I help work on a bug like [Bug 2878] Very poor satellite acquisition with internal GPS ? | 01:40 |
| javispedro | it's not capancitantive | 01:40 |
| sivang | my PC bpx has not GPS :-p | 01:40 |
| javispedro | D: | 01:41 |
| ShadowJK | sivang, that bug is impossible :) | 01:41 |
| lcuk | javispedro, when its cold and you have gloves on | 01:41 |
| lcuk | or if you are a girl who has long fingernails | 01:41 |
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| lcuk | or someone who likes to write | 01:41 |
| javispedro | then you kill someone, grab their finger while it's still hot and use it. | 01:41 |
| lcuk | capacitive sucks | 01:41 |
| javispedro | that's what an iphone user would say ;P | 01:42 |
| lcuk | plus, those screens get all smeary | 01:42 |
| * lcuk hates people touching his monitor | 01:42 | |
| ShadowJK | A summary: Without A-GPS, time to first fix is very long, and very sensitive to poor signal and other disturbances. With A-GPS, it's OK-ish. Once fix has been acquired, the GPS is quite good. The GPS chip uses a proprietary Texas Instruments protocol, which is not documented. The driver source is not available. Therefore, there's nothing we can do to help there | 01:42 |
| lardman | sivang: there;s nothing to be done for that bug | 01:42 |
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| javispedro | just joking of course; I couldn't live without a stylus :D | 01:42 |
| lcuk | i could most of the time | 01:43 |
| lcuk | ive said that for ages | 01:43 |
| lcuk | i love a finger friendly ui in general menus | 01:43 |
| lcuk | so easy with stylus | 01:43 |
| ShellEvil | ShadowJK: which isn't 1000% true - you can snoop the protocol and reverse it. | 01:43 |
| lardman | with capacitive though, you never get fingerprints on the screen as you don't have to touch it ;) | 01:43 |
| javispedro | bah, diablo's sdl doesn't report pressure, so I'll best forget about the whole thing. | 01:43 |
| lcuk | but then in the little programs that need it, the stylus stops a kids interface | 01:43 |
| mrmcq2u | Hi, I heard some people complain that the n900 had a resistive screen... From what I know about resistive screens they allow more input options than capacitive. I heard some say that because it uses resistive it cannot have multi-touch features. But I have seen several resistive multi touch screens. Couldnt the n900 gain multitouch features if the software was adapted and something like mpx was used? Is mpx in the roadmap for maemo? | 01:43 |
| RichiH | by definition, nothing is 1000% true | 01:43 |
| ShellEvil | ShadowJK: after all - you know the input data, you know the output data, ... | 01:43 |
| ShadowJK | ShellEvil, yes, that's true. | 01:44 |
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| ShadowJK | However, we don't even know if this is something that could be fixed in software :) | 01:44 |
| lardman | mrmcq2u: probably not as it requires a special screen with more connections | 01:44 |
| lcuk | javispedro, pressure is xsp library | 01:44 |
| * mrmcq2u just realised people where talking about this already | 01:44 | |
| ShellEvil | ShadowJK: It almost certaintly can. | 01:44 |
| javispedro | lcuk, could you elaborate? I though pressure info came with Motion events or the like? | 01:44 |
| lardman | ShellEvil: why so certain? | 01:44 |
| lcuk | // Pressure gradient: | 01:45 |
| lcuk | // 100 == MEDIC! | 01:45 |
| lcuk | // 150 == ouch | 01:45 |
| lcuk | // 200 == ahhh | 01:45 |
| lcuk | // 300 == you there | 01:45 |
| lcuk | // 450 == hello? | 01:45 |
| * sivang wonders why the status doesn't work | 01:45 | |
| lcuk | yeah | 01:45 |
| lcuk | xsp supplies a new set of x11 events | 01:45 |
| lcuk | and gives pressure results like that ^ | 01:45 |
| javispedro | but you use raw ts mode? | 01:45 |
| lcuk | they are raw events coming from the touchscreen itself | 01:45 |
| lcuk | so are much higher res than the screen | 01:45 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: because of the design of the chip as revealed in the TI docs, the limited info I have on the software - and research into GPS from trying to reverse engineer the last one. | 01:45 |
| javispedro | hum. | 01:45 |
| lcuk | and must be scaled back down | 01:45 |
| javispedro | so how you calibrate? | 01:45 |
| lcuk | i never found it to be drastically off | 01:46 |
| VDVsx | sivang, there's a lottttttttt of components missing in the SDK ;) | 01:46 |
| lcuk | no1 else ever complained | 01:46 |
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| lardman | ShellEvil: what do you see the problem being, assuming it's not poor reception due to antenna placement? | 01:46 |
| javispedro | that means either raw events are somehow calibrated or those screens were very good quality.. | 01:46 |
| RichiH | one thing which i did find nothing about, yet.. does the n900 have a proper saphir glas screen? | 01:46 |
| sivang | VDVsx: but I ran the proggy | 01:46 |
| lcuk | javispedro, theres not a long way they can go wrong | 01:46 |
| sivang | VDVsx: why is it mentioned in the SDK docs if it doesn't do a thing | 01:47 |
| lcuk | and if someone is moaning enough and needing calibration | 01:47 |
| lcuk | theres usually a bigger problem anyway | 01:47 |
| lcuk | i know ive never calibrated this | 01:47 |
| lcuk | i only found out it had it recently | 01:47 |
| lcuk | sivang, cos you might want to develop for your device | 01:47 |
| lcuk | with the sdk | 01:47 |
| lcuk | you can compile things | 01:48 |
| mrmcq2u | lardman - have the specs of how many connections the n900 has been made publicly available yet? | 01:48 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: It's searching for the satellites. The satellites can be for each satellite (in RF space) in any spot in a two dimensional space - First axis is frequency - this changes with doppler, and local clock drift. Second axis is phase offset to the CDMA signal that repeats at 1ms | 01:48 |
| lcuk | wtf did you expect tho, all software gps? | 01:48 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: offset to the local clock | 01:48 |
| sivang | lcuk: can I not simulate the status line program on the SDK ? | 01:48 |
| lcuk | not if its reading a hardware gps | 01:48 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: it's faster with a-gps as you can instead of searching the whole range - go directly there. | 01:48 |
| lcuk | cmon you are trollin | 01:48 |
| lcuk | no1 could be that thick | 01:49 |
| lardman | ShellEvil: I understand how the system works, but how do you think tweaking the sw will improve things? | 01:49 |
| lardman | if it could be done | 01:49 |
| lcuk | just run it on your tablet once you use the sdk to build it | 01:49 |
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| ShellEvil | lardman: The blob should be able to be given some agps data - that you generate. Or it should be able to store it. How long is startup - there are a couple of possible cases. | 01:50 |
| javispedro | don't we have a-gps already?= | 01:50 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: you should get a dramatic speedup even after several weeks of no lock. (if you have a clock to within a few mins) | 01:51 |
| lardman | ShellEvil: I agree it would be nice to be able to populate nvd_data ourselves, but that's not tweaking the sw | 01:51 |
| lardman | fundamentally, I don't see any way of making it faster than it already is (with a good view of the sky and a recent a-gps update) | 01:52 |
| * mrmcq2u hopes that the screen technology in the n900 is similar to stantums resistive technology | 01:52 | |
| lardman | but from what you said, I thought you were saying some sw tweak should be made to the GPS chipset | 01:52 |
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| ShellEvil | lardman: I'm assuming - as everything I've read seems to indicate (not much) that it's broadly similar to the hammerhead chip that I've looked at before. The chip does all the hard-realtime stuff and talks at a relatively low rate to the CPU - which then does the hard maths to work out a position, | 01:52 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: and controlls acquisition. | 01:53 |
| pH5 | do know yet what gps chip is in the n900? | 01:53 |
| lardman | with the hammerhead the cpu does the maths? | 01:53 |
| pH5 | yup. | 01:53 |
| lardman | pH5: not sure, might be in the kernel dump | 01:53 |
| lardman | pH5: yup to my question? | 01:53 |
| pH5 | yup. | 01:53 |
| lardman | hmm, that's not the case, afaiu, for the Ti chip we use | 01:54 |
| lardman | Ti5300 or somesuch iirc | 01:54 |
| woglinde | hi ph5 | 01:54 |
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| pH5 | hej woglinde | 01:54 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: yes - it basically gets a - this is hypothesis based on reverse engineering and stuff - list of outputs from integrators on the chip with dozens of values per satellite, along with the datastream (50bps) from each sat. It then computes a position. | 01:54 |
| lardman | that's pretty cool, would be interesting to be able to get that data :) | 01:55 |
| lardman | but that's not what we have | 01:55 |
| mrmcq2u | anyone know the screen vendor that is used with the n900 | 01:55 |
| lardman | http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?contentId=4663&navigationId=12607&templateId=6123 is what we have | 01:55 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: What sort of CPU does the TI thingy use? | 01:55 |
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| lardman | mrmcq2u: have a look at the kernel patch | 01:55 |
| lardman | ShellEvil: no idea, black box | 01:55 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: I mean - the blob | 01:56 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: % | 01:56 |
| RichiH | in case anyone cares, putting mp3s in Sounds/ works | 01:56 |
| lardman | sorry, I didn't understand that? | 01:56 |
| lardman | RichiH: glad you've sorted it :) | 01:56 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: yes - I read that TI note as the heavy lifting for the AGPS is done in the modem - in the usual case. | 01:57 |
| RichiH | lardman: me too :) | 01:57 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: it may also be done in the SoC | 01:57 |
| ShadowJK | The binary gps blob runs on the Omap2 CPU in the N810. Whether it uploads part of itself to the GPS chip or not, who knows :) | 01:57 |
| lardman | no that's wrong | 01:57 |
| RichiH | now i only need new a cable for my sennheisers and i am good :) | 01:57 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: sorry - unclear. The binary blob that I understand is present on the n900 - what % of CPU is used. | 01:57 |
| ShadowJK | lardman, oh? | 01:57 |
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| lardman | gpsdriver is closed source, and talks to the GPS chipset | 01:58 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 01:58 |
| lardman | but it doesn't upload itself | 01:58 |
| ShadowJK | ok | 01:58 |
| lardman | in fact iirc the only thing that is uploaded is the nvd_data file which contains the emphemerides, etc | 01:58 |
| ShadowJK | iirc, its CPU use is pretty minimal? | 01:58 |
| lardman | gpsdriver then creates the "gps" dev entry and spits out the nmea stuff | 01:59 |
| lardman | yes, the Ti 5300 contains everything it needs afaik, and only needs to be fed some initialisation data (if available) | 01:59 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: why do you think the nvd_data is uploaded - and not used by the blob? | 01:59 |
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| ShellEvil | (I'm not saying it doesn't ) | 01:59 |
| lardman | it contains the almanac and ephemerides | 02:00 |
| lardman | what's blob here, hw or sw? | 02:00 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: Sure. The GTA01 had a similar file. - and that was entirely used by the binary blob running on the host CPU. | 02:00 |
| lardman | I've reverse engineered gpsdriver, not much is sent back to it | 02:01 |
| mrmcq2u | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=26989 - one can dream :D | 02:01 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: the GPS chip had no firmware. | 02:01 |
| ShadowJK | what, GTA01 had a blob? :) | 02:01 |
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| lardman | hammerhead? | 02:01 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: was it a hundred bytes a second or so? | 02:01 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: yes | 02:01 |
| lardman | I think the Ti 5300 comes with its own firmware | 02:01 |
| lardman | I guess even | 02:02 |
| lardman | believe might be a better word | 02:02 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: the 'back traffic' - as far as we analysed it - wasn't 'here is the almanac' - it was 'tune integrator 3 to 47.8' | 02:02 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: and then read out the data a little while later. | 02:03 |
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| ShellEvil | lardman: again - this is just how I'm reading the limited data I've seen based on the HH - which had a 2 page spec sheet that was _lots_ more detailed than the TI offering. | 02:05 |
| lardman | hmm, dunno | 02:05 |
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| ShellEvil | lardman: basically - it means that they can nuke all of the position calculation stuff and heavy lifting in that area - and leave all the hard maths to another chip in the box which can handle it easily. | 02:07 |
| lardman | I suppose looking at the amount of cpu gpsdriver uses would indicate whether it does the heavy lifting | 02:07 |
| lardman | yeah sure, I'd not expected that be be done at all | 02:08 |
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| lardman | interesting idea, I like it :) | 02:08 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: if you're not doing the position calculation, you cannot use the ephemeris. | 02:08 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: as you have nothing to relate it to. | 02:08 |
| lardman | yeah but it could send that data to the chip for it to use of course, that was what I'd assumed | 02:08 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: as a datapoint - IIRC the gllin firmware used perhaps 11% of CPU at 200MHz | 02:09 |
| lardman | ok, that's certainly significant. It would show if it was doing something useful rather than just reading the chip ever second or so | 02:09 |
| lardman | I don't have a view of the sky atm though, so can't really test - I guess not much will happen until it sees sats | 02:10 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: The ephemeris is a key thing to use if you are calculating position. You can only use it to aid getting a signal if you can work out the satellite orbits, and your relative speed to them based on your last known position and course. | 02:10 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: if it has an ephem - it will presumably tell the chip - 'look for sats 4,19,23' - for example. | 02:11 |
| lardman | yes, but I've not tried intercepting the comms | 02:11 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: even in the absence of signal. - it won't - unless it's insane or has correlators to spare - ask for ones below the horizon. | 02:12 |
| ShellEvil | ah | 02:12 |
| lardman | so don't know either way | 02:12 |
| ShellEvil | http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol is a possibly interesting page | 02:12 |
| lardman | thanks, will have a look | 02:14 |
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| ShellEvil | http://projects.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/sphyrna-devel/ too | 02:14 |
| ShellEvil | GPS hacking is fun :) | 02:14 |
| ShellEvil | (Currently doing a 'hard' software GPS - _everything_ in software - fed a bitstream at 18M/s from a ADC) :) | 02:16 |
| lardman | sounds interesting | 02:16 |
| ShadowJK | ShellEvil, your GPS knowledge is impressive :) | 02:16 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: If I can get it working - it will be. Currently at the 'timed assembler psuedocode stage' - trying to work out how to pervert instructions into doing stuff they shouldn't - bitslicing and such. | 02:17 |
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| lardman | Hmm, I wonder how to easily work out whether this file is doing one thing or the other | 02:18 |
| ShadowJK | strace? | 02:18 |
| ShadowJK | (idea on volume of data transfer) | 02:19 |
| ShellEvil | lardman: for the hammerhead - a key way was stracing it - then looking at orbital speeds | 02:19 |
| javispedro | it starts with lots of 1byte read. | 02:19 |
| ShellEvil | Oooh | 02:19 |
| ShellEvil | http://www.mauve.plus.com/gps.gif | 02:19 |
| lardman | yep | 02:19 |
| ShellEvil | The splotchy lines are the one aspect of a recieved packet | 02:20 |
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| javispedro | then does some 140-ish bytes each after receiving around 10 bytes from the gps. | 02:20 |
| ShellEvil | the symbols on top of them are computed doppler speeds | 02:20 |
| lardman | what are the axes? | 02:21 |
| lardman | x=time? | 02:22 |
| ShellEvil | Bottom axis is seconds | 02:22 |
| lardman | y is a position related value | 02:22 |
| ShellEvil | I forget the other axes - looks like m/s * 100 | 02:22 |
| ShellEvil | doppler | 02:22 |
| lardman | hmm, looks like a proper reverse of gpsdriver might be on the cards then | 02:24 |
| ShellEvil | I hacked xephem to output speed to 1cm/s not 1m/s | 02:24 |
| ShellEvil | then you simply load int he GPS sats and get a nice tabular list | 02:24 |
| ShellEvil | every minute | 02:24 |
| ShellEvil | of the dopplers. | 02:24 |
| mrmcq2u | lardman - where can I find the kernel patch? would it mention whether there is a pmatrix chipset hiding in there? | 02:26 |
| lardman | http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0beta2/free/k/kernel/ | 02:26 |
| lardman | grep it for "LCD" or the like | 02:27 |
| lardman | you were looking for the screen type weren't you? | 02:27 |
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| mrmcq2u | yup | 02:28 |
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| mrmcq2u | well figuring out whether it uses any of stantums specs would be great | 02:29 |
| GAN8001 | ~ping | 02:29 |
| infobot | ~pong | 02:29 |
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| lardman | hmm, looks like it does some high precision floating point arithmetic in there | 02:30 |
| ShadowJK | hmm huh.. | 02:30 |
| ShadowJK | high precision and floating point, eh... I guess I'm not used to seeing those two in same context | 02:31 |
| lardman | well double anyway :) | 02:31 |
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| sivang | i'm running the app installer and get an error | 02:35 |
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| lardman | ShellEvil: well, that is very cool, assuming all this floating point stuff is more than just converting from some sort of output format to the nmea stuff, it does indeed offer a chance to improve performance | 02:36 |
| lardman | ShellEvil: thanks :) and my apologies for my tone earlier | 02:36 |
| lardman | have you added this thought to the bug out of interest? I had certainly written it off as a black box which spat out the location and did all the processing inside, I think others had too | 02:37 |
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| javispedro | lol, gpsdriver uses the vfp | 02:39 |
| javispedro | i though the base system didn't | 02:40 |
| lardman | apparently it has reason to do so | 02:40 |
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| lardman | getting late here, time to hit the sack | 02:42 |
| lardman | night all | 02:42 |
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| javispedro | hah. | 02:46 |
| javispedro | i've found it loading Pi as a float | 02:46 |
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| ShellEvil | lardman|gone: no - | 02:50 |
| ShellEvil | oh | 02:50 |
| * ShellEvil doesn't know where the bug is. | 02:50 | |
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| ShellEvil | (Of course, it's quite possible that they are doing all they can in software, and the chip is fundamentally shitty.) | 02:51 |
| javispedro | it does not seem to write a lot to the gps chip, at least while trying to get a lock. | 02:52 |
| javispedro | in fact, it has been reading 1 byte values for a few minutes now. | 02:53 |
| ShellEvil | Is it a simple bytestream, or are there addresses? | 03:00 |
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| ShellEvil | It could be for example - that it's configured the chip for the expected signal - and it's waiting for the chip to say 'signal x over threshold - here are the details'. | 03:01 |
| * ShellEvil utterly fails to find more info on the 5300. Meh. | 03:02 | |
| ShellEvil | Unsurprising really - I suspect there are probably 50ish users of the document 'legitimately' | 03:02 |
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| javispedro | I assume it uses ring buffer for input, cause it's actually doing 1-byte reads. That causes off-the-shelf strace to be useless. | 03:04 |
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| ShellEvil | what is the input through? | 03:05 |
| ShellEvil | serial/I2c/DMA/...? | 03:05 |
| javispedro | serial | 03:05 |
| Luke-Jr | if someone wants, I have at least some tools to reverse engineer ARM stuff | 03:06 |
| Luke-Jr | Perl scripts mainly | 03:06 |
| Luke-Jr | that identify functions and calls | 03:06 |
| Luke-Jr | and make graphviz files | 03:06 |
| Luke-Jr | and annotate disassembly | 03:06 |
| Luke-Jr | :þ | 03:06 |
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| ShellEvil | Nice. | 03:07 |
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| SpeedEvil | meh - need to fix that. | 03:07 |
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| javispedro | ok, fix. | 03:14 |
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| javispedro | gpsdriver is using 3-4% of the CPU here. | 03:14 |
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| Woolly | who's up? | 03:15 |
| zerojayPC | What's your definition of "up"? | 03:15 |
| javispedro | every second gpsdriver receives between 256 and 768 bytes | 03:17 |
| Woolly | alive | 03:17 |
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| Woolly | anyone know the Wiicontrol guys? | 03:19 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: that's almost dead on what the GTA01 GPS used. | 03:20 |
| SpeedEvil | (11% of a 200MHz CPU) | 03:20 |
| javispedro | yeah, i'm on performance governor, so consider this a arm11 400Mhz CPU. | 03:21 |
| zerojayPC | Woolly: I don't think the wiicontrol guys come here. | 03:22 |
| Woolly | zerojayPC: that's a shame :( | 03:22 |
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| javispedro | Woolly, some wiicontrol problem? | 03:22 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: does the CPU have FP? | 03:23 |
| Woolly | I'm going to write a status bar application to handle wii remotes | 03:23 |
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| zerojayPC | I don't know for sure... I just know I never hear anyone talking about it. | 03:23 |
| Woolly | to replace the GUI application, which IMO is pretty poor | 03:23 |
| javispedro | SpeedEvil, yes, and also we've found it is actively using it (the rest of the base system does NOT use it) | 03:23 |
| javispedro | so indeed either: they are doing some heavy calculations, or the code is from somewhere else. | 03:24 |
| SpeedEvil | Woolly: including the wii guitar? | 03:24 |
| javispedro | (the FP is VFP) | 03:24 |
| Woolly | SpeedEvil: wii guitar? | 03:24 |
| javispedro | naa, wiicontrol only handles wiimote, no extensions. | 03:24 |
| javispedro | (well, maybe the nunchuk, never tried :P ) | 03:25 |
| Woolly | that's a shame, maybe it could be extended | 03:25 |
| Woolly | the connector is i^2c | 03:25 |
| javispedro | Woolly, the author said the only reason he didn't add support for the classical controller was because he hadn't one | 03:25 |
| SpeedEvil | Someone _has_ to make a chording keyboard for the guitar :) | 03:25 |
| Woolly | javispedro: ahh thanks :) | 03:25 |
| Woolly | javispedro: I'd like to become involved, but have never really gotten involved with any projects before, so dont know where to begin | 03:26 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: the 200MHz 11% number was without FP unit | 03:26 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: so it's in the same ballpark | 03:26 |
| javispedro | seems so., | 03:26 |
| javispedro | fwiw, the binary size is 116K ( i don't know the first thing about gps); do you think it could house the required algorithms? | 03:28 |
| SpeedEvil | yes | 03:28 |
| * SpeedEvil tries to remember size of gllin | 03:28 | |
| javispedro | I saw PI as a 32-bit fp constant in the binary | 03:28 |
| javispedro | I don't know what PI could be used for if it's not for GPS-related calculations. | 03:29 |
| javispedro | so I guess the idea it's a dumb application translating gps data has fewer chances now. | 03:29 |
| SpeedEvil | http://3rdparty.downloads.openmoko.org/gllin/ | 03:29 |
| SpeedEvil | is the GPS binary for the GTA01 openmoko | 03:30 |
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| javispedro | well, I don't plan to _use_ the software, so ... clicks accept. | 03:30 |
| SpeedEvil | C would probably be in there as a constant too | 03:31 |
| SpeedEvil | 299*10^6 (about) | 03:31 |
| javispedro | yea but I can only for exact integer values | 03:31 |
| javispedro | *only look | 03:31 |
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| javispedro | so either it's a common one (M_E, M_PI,...) or... | 03:32 |
| javispedro | gglin is 1,6 MiB. | 03:32 |
| javispedro | *gllin | 03:32 |
| javispedro | and gpsdriver links with glib (think bloat) and even then it's still only 150~KiB. | 03:33 |
| SpeedEvil | it's got a mess - there is a chroot jail round it I think | 03:33 |
| woglinde | good nite | 03:36 |
| javispedro | nite | 03:36 |
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| Woolly | n810 status bar icons are 26x26 right? | 03:38 |
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| javispedro | does "HyPE" library ring any bell? whatever it is, is statically linked to gps driver. | 03:39 |
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| zerojayPC | Woolly: Yes. | 03:41 |
| Woolly | zerojayPC: thanks :) | 03:41 |
| zerojayPC | At least that's what I've seen mostly. | 03:42 |
| zerojayPC | I know the IM protocol icons are also all 26x26. | 03:42 |
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| SpeedEvil | javispedro: Is there a case sensitive search engine? Anyway - it wouldn't surprise me at all if TI distributed a binary library to link into your code | 03:50 |
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| Macer | ah well | 03:52 |
| Macer | i guess i will just use maemo 4 until i can get an n900 | 03:52 |
| Macer | heh | 03:52 |
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| Macer | hope tmob around here gets it soon | 03:52 |
| Macer | :) | 03:52 |
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| sivang | what's the status on the task switcher ? | 04:36 |
| sivang | why didn't they put it in the SDK distro ? | 04:36 |
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| MaceN8x0 | iphone? | 05:00 |
| MaceN8x0 | i never noticed the topic haha | 05:00 |
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| xnt14 | hmm http://xceleo.org/DSC02832.JPG | 05:20 |
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| seshucl | Hello | 05:46 |
| zerojayPC | hi | 05:49 |
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| fuzzy | Pupnik? | 06:13 |
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| smackpotat | so how much K does a person need to get a discounted n900 | 06:23 |
| smackpotat | 60 maybe? | 06:24 |
| Firebird | Oh... the N900 comes with the adapter for the standard pin Nokia charger | 06:24 |
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| smackpotat | k | 06:25 |
| zerojayPC | lol... 60? I hope you don't mean karma. | 06:25 |
| smackpotat | yep | 06:25 |
| zerojayPC | Yeah, 60 probably isn't going to do it. | 06:26 |
| zerojayPC | If they use karma as criteria at all. | 06:26 |
| zerojayPC | We don't even know IF there will be a dev discount so... | 06:26 |
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| smackpotat | if they give out 500 about 64 does it im a bit to low. what do you think they will use | 06:28 |
| smackpotat | if anything | 06:28 |
| zerojayPC | Probably handpicked with karma as a secondary helper. | 06:28 |
| smackpotat | ahh | 06:29 |
| zerojayPC | Put it this way: | 06:30 |
| zerojayPC | I have 575 karma. | 06:30 |
| smackpotat | so stacking my karma with thankyous on itt isint going to help me | 06:30 |
| zerojayPC | I'm not sure I'll get one. | 06:30 |
| smackpotat | if they give out any youl get one | 06:30 |
| zerojayPC | Depends on what you're getting the thank yous for, I guess. | 06:31 |
| zerojayPC | If you're visible in the community and you have a project you're working on, I would imagine there's a good chance you get one. | 06:31 |
| smackpotat | do you have a project | 06:32 |
| zerojayPC | Not even sure it would be all that useful for me anyways if it's really locked down to Tmobile. | 06:32 |
| zerojayPC | I have my finger in a few different pies, yes. | 06:32 |
| smackpotat | it is! | 06:32 |
| zerojayPC | Telepathy, community translation efforts, bug hunting... | 06:33 |
| smackpotat | cool | 06:33 |
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| smackpotat | i often see your posts | 06:34 |
| zerojayPC | Yeah... I post too much, lol | 06:34 |
| smackpotat | not | 06:34 |
| zerojayPC | Making up for lost time, I suppose. I've been away from the community for a while through reasons beyond my control. | 06:35 |
| zerojayPC | Such as the N810 developer discount fiasco. | 06:35 |
| smackpotat | what do you think. will nokia come out with a dedicated internet tablet without a phone | 06:36 |
| zerojayPC | I doubt it. | 06:36 |
| smackpotat | what was the fiasco | 06:37 |
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| zerojayPC | The whole point of the previous tablets was to foster a development community and an OS/UI for mainstream public. They knew the previous ones weren't going to be for everyone. | 06:37 |
| zerojayPC | Well, I got my N810 developer discount and I'm in Canada and the Canadian Nokia store page is completely fucked. | 06:37 |
| zerojayPC | I had sold my N800 to a friend that week, expecting to use the cash to pay for the N810. | 06:38 |
| zerojayPC | The store was fucked. | 06:38 |
| zerojayPC | US store wouldn't accept my code. | 06:38 |
| zerojayPC | After months of going back and forth, I got new codes which the sites wouldn't allow. | 06:39 |
| smackpotat | no you lost out | 06:39 |
| smackpotat | canadian here i got mine | 06:39 |
| zerojayPC | Finally, after about 10 months... during which time I didn't really hang around as much for obvious reasons... Quim mailed me an N810 completely free with an apology. | 06:39 |
| zerojayPC | Cool, great... I finally have it. | 06:40 |
| zerojayPC | 2 weeks later, battery dies completely. | 06:40 |
| smackpotat | but you lost out on the fun for almost a year | 06:40 |
| zerojayPC | Longer. | 06:40 |
| zerojayPC | I had more important shit to take care of than buying a battery, so the tablet sat on my desk for months. | 06:40 |
| zerojayPC | Then one day... about two months ago, I suddenly heard it come on. | 06:41 |
| zerojayPC | I freaked out... threw it on the charger and it was working again just fine. | 06:41 |
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| smackpotat | ha | 06:41 |
| zerojayPC | But during that entire time... it wouldn't charge. Plugging in the charger would just make the tablet turn itself off. | 06:41 |
| zerojayPC | So I don't know what happened.. but yeah... I wasn't happy about it. | 06:42 |
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| smackpotat | nokia seems to be so messed as a company its a wonder they make any money | 06:42 |
| zerojayPC | Well, they're just so fucking big. | 06:42 |
| smackpotat | i sent a 770 to america for repair 10 days later i recieved a new one, 14 days later they e-mail me saying they wouldn't ship it to canada | 06:45 |
| zerojayPC | Hah. | 06:46 |
| smackpotat | take care. im gone | 06:46 |
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| jdav | Hi, has anybody had success compiling sbox2 on F11? | 07:52 |
| jdav | F11 x86_64 that is | 07:53 |
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| GAN8001 | Bleh, linuxdevices got the Fennec thing wrong, too. | 08:12 |
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| RST38h | Moo all | 09:22 |
| RST38h | GAN: So, what is the actual browser in N900? Is it using any parts of fennec? | 09:22 |
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| slonopotamus | is it possible to change thread name on tmo? | 09:58 |
| RST38h | I think it is, a moment | 09:59 |
| slonopotamus | editing subject of first post doesn't do the thing | 10:00 |
| RST38h | heffalump: Press GO ADVANCED and it will let you change the title | 10:01 |
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| slonopotamus | o_O | 10:01 |
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| slonopotamus | RST38h, where's that 'advanced'? | 10:17 |
| RST38h | slono: at the bottom of adding your comment | 10:19 |
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| slonopotamus | i don't want to add comment, i want to change _thread_ name | 10:20 |
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| Stskeeps | morn lbt | 10:23 |
| RST38h | slono: like, global thread name? | 10:23 |
| RST38h | slono: I do not think it is possible :) | 10:24 |
| slonopotamus | weird | 10:24 |
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| lbt | morning | 10:31 |
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| KHertan | Hi | 10:56 |
| BluesLee | hi | 10:57 |
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| jaem | hello folks | 11:12 |
| Stskeeps | lo | 11:13 |
| * Stskeeps glares at the guy wishing for AM radio receiver in n900 | 11:15 | |
| aquatix | you mean there isn't one? | 11:15 |
| aquatix | dang | 11:16 |
| kvalo | AM radio receiver? hah | 11:16 |
| jaem | rofl | 11:16 |
| thux | this step to n810 to n900 seems bigger than n770 to n800 or n800 to n810 | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | 770 to n800 was a big step too | 11:17 |
| Stskeeps | n800 to n810 not so much | 11:17 |
| RST38h | Sts: Can I have a shortwave radio in N900? With PLL please? | 11:18 |
| RST38h | Sts: Preferably something that will let me receive in 1MHz-2.5GHz range, no gaps, so that we can officially call N900 a tricorder =) | 11:19 |
| jaem | heh | 11:20 |
| jaem | this just in: the BBC has used the phrase "Epic Fail" in a serious news article - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8221235.stm | 11:20 |
| jaem | XD | 11:20 |
| RST38h | jaem: Waiting for the favorable mention of Cthulhu now | 11:21 |
| jaem | RST38h: -snerk- | 11:21 |
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| pillar | hello, anyone willing to help me with setuping maemo developing environment? I have eclipse + esbox working, but would like to try qt development | 11:24 |
| jaem | pillar: what do you need to set up in particular? | 11:27 |
| jaem | are you looking for a Qt-friendly IDE, or just general scratchbox stuff? | 11:27 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i would be happy with a SDR reall | 11:28 |
| Stskeeps | y | 11:28 |
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| pillar | jaem yes, looking for a Qt-friendly ide, is there some sort of plugin for eclipse or something | 11:28 |
| jaem | pillar: I've never used Eclipse, but I would give full recommendations for KDevelop4, even though it's still in beta | 11:29 |
| jaem | Nokia's QtCreator is also nice, but isn't as full-featured | 11:29 |
| jaem | I'm using KDevelop4 right now, and I love it | 11:30 |
| jaem | which distro are you using? | 11:30 |
| pillar | ok, will have to take a look. I have done java development with eclipse beforehand so that's why that was my first idea | 11:31 |
| pillar | Ubuntu | 11:31 |
| jaem | you can probably find a PPA that has the beta | 11:31 |
| jaem | I'll check | 11:31 |
| pillar | thanks | 11:31 |
| * lcuk yawns | 11:31 | |
| jaem | pillar: here yeh go: http://blogs.fsfe.org/drdanz/?p=51 | 11:32 |
| pillar | jaem, thanks - I'll try it out | 11:33 |
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| lcuk | mmmm new coffee | 11:48 |
| thux | that is good | 11:48 |
| lcuk | 'tis | 11:49 |
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| jaem | has there been any news on the PowerVR driver since Quim's initial announcement a while back? | 11:54 |
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| wazd | 'lo all :) | 12:10 |
| jaem | heya, wazd | 12:10 |
| lcuk | hi wazd | 12:10 |
| wazd | mobile-review forum guys are funny, discussing my fake e900 | 12:11 |
| jaem | yay - my new build of Einstein... built | 12:11 |
| jaem | let's see if it works ;) | 12:11 |
| jaem | wazd: was that the picture you linked to yesterday? | 12:11 |
| wazd | "I think it's fake, poor light, wrong specs. But could be true". | 12:11 |
| jaem | haha | 12:11 |
| wazd | There's no "Y" button, dude! :D | 12:11 |
| wazd | jaem: yep :) | 12:12 |
| jaem | well, I thought it looked nice ;) | 12:12 |
| jaem | you just need a Hello Kitty edition of this too, to set them speculating XD | 12:12 |
| jaem | *shudder* | 12:12 |
| pillar | I have diablo sdk installed, in order to develop for freemantle, do I need to install scratchbox again? | 12:12 |
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| josch | hi! does Frantisek Dufka happen to be around here sometime? | 12:14 |
| wazd | jaem: next time I'll show something real :) | 12:14 |
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| jaem | what?! my uni's fileserver doesn't have VIM installed | 12:16 |
| jaem | heh | 12:16 |
| josch | try vi then ;) | 12:17 |
| jaem | oh well | 12:17 |
| jaem | josch: yeah, that's there | 12:17 |
| jaem | they also use csh | 12:17 |
| jaem | (it's Solaris) | 12:17 |
| josch | so where's your point? :D | 12:17 |
| slonopotamus | fbsd? | 12:17 |
| jaem | my point is in my .cshrc | 12:17 |
| slonopotamus | oh | 12:17 |
| jaem | it says "/bin/bash" | 12:17 |
| jaem | vi file.ext [enter] "Terminal too wide" | 12:18 |
| jaem | grr | 12:18 |
| slonopotamus | :D | 12:18 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | Real men use cat and sed. I don't, so that excludes me from that category | 12:19 |
| jaem | what does vi have against my WUXGA monitor? | 12:19 |
| slonopotamus | meh. top still segfalts if you shrink terminal too much while it's running :) | 12:20 |
| lcuk | wazd, did you see your pm | 12:20 |
| wazd | lcuk: nope, where? | 12:21 |
| lcuk | flashing somewhere | 12:21 |
| wazd | lcuk: no, can't see it anywhere :) | 12:22 |
| lcuk | ahh well | 12:22 |
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| wazd | lcuk: I guess I'm not the one to be sent with PM ;) | 12:36 |
| lcuk | well it was :) you are the only one signed in with miranda | 12:37 |
| RST38h | heya wazd, lcuk | 12:37 |
| wazd | RST38h: hey | 12:37 |
| * RST38h moos evilly | 12:37 | |
| * jaem laughs, imagining that | 12:37 | |
| lcuk | blue cow | 12:37 |
| lcuk | http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbeebies/storymakers/stories/bluecowplayground.shtml | 12:38 |
| lcuk | blue cow wonders, wonders about the big world beyond her field | 12:38 |
| RST38h | Aaaaaaaaaa... | 12:39 |
| jaem | ahahahaah | 12:39 |
| jaem | epic | 12:39 |
| wazd | lcuk: jeez :D | 12:39 |
| * lcuk used to watch bluecow with jacob | 12:40 | |
| * lcuk sings | 12:40 | |
| jaem | lcuk: nice | 12:40 |
| jaem | it's only funny because it's 2:40am | 12:40 |
| lcuk | hah | 12:40 |
| RST38h | Ah, tmo! | 12:41 |
| wazd | "I know what should we play, jump on my back!" - that's kinda porno quote :D | 12:41 |
| lcuk | noooooooooooooooo | 12:42 |
| lcuk | do not damge bluecows reputation | 12:42 |
| lcuk | wazd, if you didnt get the pm, you shout me and ill resend. i would just like a little tiny bit of your extremely good eye | 12:44 |
| wazd | lcuk: well, drew,zhilin@gmail.com | 12:45 |
| lcuk | with a comma? | 12:45 |
| wazd | dot :) | 12:45 |
| * lcuk i hate dotted emails | 12:45 | |
| lcuk | its part of reason why my liquid@gmail gets stuff meant for mr.liquid the.liquid real.liquid and a load of other people | 12:46 |
| wazd | :) | 12:46 |
| wazd | lcuk: register your own domail and live safely :) | 12:47 |
| jaem | I use a dotted e-mail, but I know what you mean... | 12:47 |
| lcuk | wazd, liqbase.net is where i live | 12:47 |
| jaem | my mom once took a message from a company I was doing work experience for in high school, and added dots to the initials... when there weren't any | 12:47 |
| lcuk | tho ive never setup any email on it | 12:47 |
| jaem | ...that e-mail bounced | 12:47 |
| * lcuk is crap with internet | 12:47 | |
| wazd | lcuk: I've registered zhil.in but haven't got time to make something there :) | 12:48 |
| RST38h | wazd: You have not checked if zhil means anything in Suahili? | 12:49 |
| RST38h | I mean just in case... | 12:49 |
| wazd | RST38h: hope it's not a trademark :D | 12:49 |
| wazd | RST38h: then it would be epic fail :) | 12:50 |
| RST38h | trademark is the least it can be... | 12:51 |
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| wazd | RST38h: just checked dictionary - there's no Zhil :) But that can mean nothing :) | 12:52 |
| RST38h | ehehehe | 12:53 |
| RST38h | wazd: yesss, that should be a bad sssign that it is not in the dictionary =) | 12:53 |
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| RST38h | wazd: Btw, seen G11 photo samples already? =) | 12:58 |
| wazd | RST38h: yeah | 13:00 |
| RST38h | usable iso1600! =) | 13:01 |
| RST38h | hey, even semiusable iso12800 if you are ok with 3mpx resolution | 13:01 |
| wazd | RST38h: well, not quite, http://img1.lesnumeriques.com/news/10/10440/iso(25).jpg | 13:01 |
| RST38h | not found | 13:01 |
| RST38h | ah ok, it is there | 13:02 |
| wazd | RST38h: too heavy software usage imo :) | 13:02 |
| RST38h | wazd: dpreview thread has got the actual photo, and it looks ok, especially when prcessed from raw | 13:03 |
| RST38h | well it has got raw | 13:03 |
| RST38h | wazd: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1010&thread=32819296&page=4 (bookshelf image) | 13:04 |
| wazd | RST38h: anyway, I'd still buy cheapest d-slr :) | 13:05 |
| RST38h | wazd: Yea, but I hate carrying those =) | 13:05 |
| wazd | RST38h: current d-slrs are not that big :) | 13:06 |
| wazd | RST38h: D40 is kinda small actually :) | 13:06 |
| RST38h | still can't pocket 'em | 13:06 |
| RST38h | even 3/4s | 13:06 |
| wazd | RST38h: you can't pocket G11 neither :) | 13:06 |
| RST38h | wazd: I can. Jacket. Cargo pants. | 13:07 |
| RST38h | Besides, there is S90 :) | 13:07 |
| RST38h | wazd: Hell, you can probably pocket a dslr if you have got the Wasserman Jacket! =) | 13:09 |
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| wazd | RST38h: yeah :) | 13:12 |
| jaem | Einstein Maemo port is out in beta: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31090 | 13:13 |
| jaem | yay | 13:13 |
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| jaem | anybody feel like giving it a spin? | 13:13 |
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| lcuk | wazd, can i say ping email. does that look better than it used to | 13:17 |
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| * RST38h thought it was a Newton emulator | 13:19 | |
| Macer | ugh these people with this michael jackson shit | 13:20 |
| Macer | hi | 13:20 |
| Macer | jaem: what is einstein? :) | 13:21 |
| jaem | a puzzle game | 13:21 |
| Macer | does it have particle physics puzzles? | 13:21 |
| jaem | I don't actually know how to play it, but there was a $20 bounty for the port, so I figured that part could come later :P | 13:21 |
| jaem | no | 13:21 |
| RST38h | was the bounty paid? | 13:21 |
| jaem | unfortunately | 13:22 |
| jaem | but I was wearing a Schrodinger's Cat shirt while coding it | 13:22 |
| Macer | equations? | 13:22 |
| jaem | RST38h: before it was finished, actually :) | 13:22 |
| Macer | $20 huh? | 13:22 |
| Macer | :) wow | 13:22 |
| jaem | I used the money to buy a silver chain for my Arch Linux necklace | 13:22 |
| Macer | haha | 13:22 |
| Macer | you were able to afford a silver chain with $20? | 13:23 |
| jaem | yeah, and it's not bad, either | 13:23 |
| jaem | it's pretty basic, but it looks nice | 13:23 |
| RST38h | necklace? hmmm | 13:24 |
| jaem | RST38h: http://schwag.archlinux.ca/product/pendant/ | 13:24 |
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| lardman | morning | 13:25 |
| Macer | lol! | 13:25 |
| jaem | morning, lardman | 13:25 |
| Macer | wow.. i bet that gets all the ladies :-D | 13:25 |
| jaem | Macer: the ones that use Arch ;) | 13:25 |
| qwerty12_N810 | morning lardman | 13:26 |
| * lardman wonders what he's walked in on :D | 13:26 | |
| jaem | no, but seriously, it does look quite nice | 13:26 |
| jaem | and you wouldn't know it's the Arch logo if you hadn't seen it before | 13:26 |
| Macer | :) | 13:26 |
| lardman | hi jaem, qwerty12_N810 | 13:26 |
| RST38h | jaem: Ultimate geekness! =) | 13:26 |
| jaem | RST38h: indeed | 13:26 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Macer: it does beat this: https://usshop.ubuntu.com/training.php?catid=5 | 13:26 |
| Macer | hahaha | 13:26 |
| RST38h | jaem: Looks like a starfleet logo, too | 13:26 |
| jaem | lardman: just discussing the Arch Linux necklace I bought | 13:26 |
| jaem | RST38h: someone thought that | 13:26 |
| RST38h | qwerty: A threesome! | 13:27 |
| qwerty12_N810 | rofl | 13:27 |
| Macer | :) | 13:27 |
| Macer | wow that is a really gay picture | 13:27 |
| jaem | it's Ubuntu... it's happy-loving-humanity | 13:27 |
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| lardman | lol | 13:27 |
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| Macer | i dunno. ijust couldn't see how ubuntu stuff would be the cool thing to wear | 13:28 |
| Macer | considering the types of people that use it :) | 13:28 |
| Macer | it's like the aol of linux | 13:28 |
| jaem | that's a bit unfair | 13:28 |
| Macer | worse than coffee shop osx chatter | 13:29 |
| jaem | I'm not a big fan of it anymore, but I still use it from time to time, and it is a good beginner distro | 13:29 |
| Macer | jaem: that is what i mean | 13:29 |
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| jaem | and it usually works fairly well | 13:29 |
| Macer | don't get me wrong. it isn't a bad distro and it does work rather well | 13:29 |
| lcuk | mornin lardman | 13:29 |
| jaem | that said, when it doesn't work, it tends to /really/ not work | 13:29 |
| Macer | but.... it is like the osx linux | 13:29 |
| jaem | it didn't like my friend's server, for example | 13:29 |
| Macer | where you hear people talking about it in book stores and you just want to choke them out | 13:29 |
| jaem | to the point where it locked up so hard ACPI events weren't getting through >_< | 13:30 |
| jaem | he had to pull the plug | 13:30 |
| lardman | hi lcuk | 13:30 |
| * lardman catches up on the Talk threads, there are lots | 13:30 | |
| lcuk | all drooling | 13:31 |
| RST38h | yep | 13:32 |
| lardman | or complaining at the price | 13:32 |
| RST38h | drawning in their own drool even | 13:32 |
| Macer | opensolaris ftw | 13:32 |
| Macer | although. my server is acting up and i think it is because it is overheating | 13:33 |
| Macer | which is odd because the thing sounds like a friggin jet taking off | 13:33 |
| wazd | lcuk: got you e-mail | 13:33 |
| jaem | Macer: an overheating jet? | 13:33 |
| Macer | it's either that or the psu is acting up.. the fan can't keep up with th heat. it's a 750W psu too | 13:33 |
| jaem | Macer: how hot is it where you are? | 13:34 |
| Macer | i don't think it's enough for it. i am still building up my rackmount stuff | 13:34 |
| Macer | jaem: it's cold in chicago for the season now actually | 13:34 |
| Macer | but it's in a central air house anyways | 13:34 |
| lcuk | arghhh | 13:34 |
| Macer | i'm not a very "green" person | 13:34 |
| lcuk | that pic in the email is not the one i used | 13:34 |
| lcuk | i tried something but i couldnt get it to work | 13:34 |
| lcuk | and forgot that was there | 13:35 |
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| jaem | >_< I just double-posted to a feedback form | 13:35 |
| *** wazd has joined #maemo | 13:35 | |
| jaem | it would have helped if the form gave any visible indication that it had submitted your content, rather than just blanking the textboxen | 13:36 |
| wazd | whoa, Miranda hung up while trying to PM lcuk :) | 13:36 |
| lcuk | haha | 13:36 |
| wazd | lcuk: can you see my pm? | 13:36 |
| lcuk | yes | 13:37 |
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| Macer | woah | 13:37 |
| Macer | st elmo's fire | 13:37 |
| Macer | talk about blast from the past | 13:38 |
| Macer | made in heaven too :) | 13:39 |
| * Macer grows a vagina | 13:39 | |
| Macer | good night. i'm going back to sleep | 13:39 |
| jaem | well, g'night folks | 13:41 |
| jaem | a good Friday night's work is done, but it's /late/ | 13:41 |
| jaem | ;) | 13:41 |
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| * RST38h yawns. ColEm SCREEN2 majorly fixed, thanks to some French guy | 14:08 | |
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| RST38h | And the guy was really pissed off, he used the SCREEN2 feature not supported by ColEm in all his projects | 14:08 |
| RST38h | "The source code need to be fixed because all the clones of ColEm are very popular and suffer of the same bugs." <-- puny mindless plagiarizers :) | 14:12 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: have you added this thought to the bug out of interest? I had certainly written it off as a black box which spat out the location and did all the processing inside, I think others had too | 14:14 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: I have no idea where the bug might be. | 14:14 |
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| javispedro | morning | 14:21 |
| qwerty12_N810 | morning javispedro | 14:22 |
| lardman | hi javispedro | 14:22 |
| javispedro | ah hi lardman, did you get a lock with the gps? | 14:23 |
| lardman | no, was asleep :) | 14:23 |
| javispedro | i got yesterday and measured 3-4% cpu usage at performance | 14:23 |
| lardman | hmm | 14:23 |
| lardman | I think some stracing might be in order | 14:23 |
| javispedro | according to ShellHack (iirc) that may meant is doing the heavy calculations | 14:24 |
| lardman | it's quite exciting actually, to think that we might be able to fix the gps | 14:24 |
| javispedro | since he mentioned 15% or the like CPU usage in 200Mhz without FP. | 14:24 |
| lardman | yeah, I think that's probably right | 14:24 |
| javispedro | btw lardman,check the dspdriver debian changelog. there's some info there (apparently some nokian enabled vfp to fix some internal bug) | 14:25 |
| lardman | need to reverse engineer the binary properly, last time I think I just quickly looked to see if nvd_data was read in | 14:25 |
| lardman | gpsdriver? | 14:25 |
| javispedro | yep, get it from the tableteer and reinstall (cause docpurge will have done its job on your tablet ;) ) | 14:25 |
| lardman | I'll just grab it from the repo | 14:26 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: /me = shellevil | 14:26 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: this is my normal nick | 14:27 |
| RST38h | heya javis | 14:27 |
| javispedro | hi SpeedEvil :) | 14:27 |
| SpeedEvil | hi. | 14:27 |
| javispedro | and rst | 14:27 |
| lardman | hmm, javispedro, do you have a link for the tableteer repo? | 14:28 |
| javispedro | not at hand, i have to check it up | 14:28 |
| qwerty12_N810 | catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/updates/diablo | 14:28 |
| javispedro | ++qwerty :) | 14:29 |
| lardman | thanks qwerty12_N810 | 14:29 |
| Macer | hm | 14:29 |
| qwerty12_N810 | password is in maemo's apt's source | 14:29 |
| Macer | http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/gallery.htm | 14:29 |
| * lardman tries to think back to what it was | 14:29 | |
| Macer | i wonder if that "tablet interface" is using the 3d chipset | 14:29 |
| javispedro | heh, i just reinstalled from tablet apt-get | 14:29 |
| Macer | well.. the 3d properties of the arm or something | 14:30 |
| javispedro | but don't get too excited either, the changelog is in the usual secretive parlance, only it confirms they do have a reason to use vfp, but does not say why. | 14:30 |
| RST38h | Why don't I see anyone masturbating at Pandora any more? | 14:31 |
| javispedro | and talks about certain libraries I assume they got from TI. | 14:31 |
| lcuk | licensing question, gpl vs mit on the maemo-developers ML http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-August/020340.html | 14:31 |
| lcuk | are they compatible? | 14:31 |
| javispedro | the MIT is a common one, I'd be surprised if it does not appear on the FSF page | 14:32 |
| RST38h | lcuk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_License | 14:32 |
| RST38h | MIT is GPL compatible | 14:32 |
| lcuk | lol | 14:32 |
| lcuk | cool | 14:32 |
| lcuk | is that a case of /thread | 14:32 |
| * lcuk facepalsm | 14:32 | |
| *** Firebird has joined #maemo | 14:33 | |
| wazd | lcuk: I guess you can't see my PM's :D | 14:33 |
| lcuk | no | 14:33 |
| lcuk | they must come and go | 14:33 |
| lcuk | i saw a couple | 14:33 |
| lcuk | but then nothing else | 14:34 |
| * lcuk got on with code | 14:34 | |
| Macer | RST38h: did it even come out? | 14:34 |
| Macer | heh | 14:34 |
| Macer | hm. didn't know the touch book can auto-switch to portrait mode | 14:34 |
| RST38h | Macer: No. Did touchbook? | 14:35 |
| Macer | yes | 14:35 |
| Macer | people hve started to receive pre-orders | 14:35 |
| RST38h | did you receive yours? | 14:35 |
| Macer | no :( | 14:35 |
| Firebird | mmm, how does one become the maintainer of their own package at maemo.org/packages , the request link doesn't seem to work | 14:35 |
| Macer | i ordered a little later tho | 14:35 |
| Macer | in may | 14:35 |
| RST38h | then it has not come out until you receive yours | 14:35 |
| Macer | haha | 14:35 |
| Macer | no. the internets have people receiving them | 14:35 |
| javispedro | Firebird, which request link? :O | 14:36 |
| RST38h | internets people are all fiction = | 14:36 |
| Macer | RST38h: i didn't even know wtf pandora was until ike last month | 14:36 |
| Macer | isn't it supposed to be a game system? | 14:36 |
| RST38h | Macer: it is supposed to be a replacement for GamePark | 14:36 |
| Macer | wtf is gamepark? | 14:36 |
| Macer | :) | 14:36 |
| RST38h | Built by British GP reseller | 14:36 |
| Macer | you mean vapored? | 14:37 |
| RST38h | Macer: Ah, peruse Wiki for Tentacled One's sake... | 14:37 |
| Macer | heh | 14:37 |
| Macer | someone said pandora was due out a year ago :) | 14:37 |
| Macer | a YEAR | 14:37 |
| javispedro | bah, is the pandora ever going to appear? | 14:37 |
| Firebird | javispedro, http://maemo.org/packages/view/pokerth/ see that "Request to be maintainer of this package" | 14:37 |
| RST38h | http://www.demotivation.ru/vs39nbg94vdxpic.html <=== "SHINIGAMI. Finishing my tea and taking care of this plane." | 14:38 |
| javispedro | Firebird, I onced clicked there and got to be maintainer of BlueMaemo (sorry :P), but that only appeared in the packages interface itself, not on /downloads | 14:38 |
| Firebird | ah, all it does is take me to a log-in page loop | 14:38 |
| Firebird | *for me | 14:38 |
| javispedro | this was before X-Fade (iirc) added the confirmation page | 14:39 |
| RST38h | Macer: Pandora had "disaster" written all over it really. But, on the bright side, we have got a huge selection of Linux running ARM gadgets to choose from now | 14:40 |
| javispedro | is that request link be supposed to affect /downloads, either way? | 14:40 |
| lardman | interesting reference to a HyPE library in that changelog | 14:40 |
| RST38h | lcuk: BTW, you do not have to choose a premade license for your stuff | 14:40 |
| lcuk | i have gpl already :) | 14:40 |
| javispedro | rings any bell lardman? we were looking for it yesterday but found nothing | 14:41 |
| lcuk | and im happy with it | 14:41 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Ah | 14:41 |
| lcuk | i just got nervous cos it was | 14:41 |
| lardman | no | 14:41 |
| lcuk | different | 14:41 |
| Macer | RST38h: not newer gen arms ;) | 14:41 |
| RST38h | Macer: newer gen arms too | 14:41 |
| lardman | javispedro: we'll just have to reverse the code I guess, I see there's a few large functions, and lots of small ones | 14:41 |
| Macer | RST38h: like what? | 14:41 |
| Macer | the only one i can think of that has been actually released has been the touch book | 14:42 |
| Macer | and maybe a couple phones that use a newer arm | 14:42 |
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| RST38h | Macer: Beagleboard, Maemo (upcming), Archos, Pre, etc | 14:42 |
| Macer | Archos? | 14:42 |
| RST38h | Archos is Cortex based now | 14:42 |
| Macer | isn't Pre a phone :) | 14:43 |
| javispedro | lardman, yeah, the large ones sound difficult. the app is based on a glib main loop, so at least we know where to start :D | 14:43 |
| SpeedEvil | Macer: freerunner! :) | 14:43 |
| lardman | has been cortex for a while hasn't it? | 14:43 |
| lardman | first one out infact I thought | 14:43 |
| RST38h | I said "gadget", Pre qualifies | 14:43 |
| SpeedEvil | (though it is somewhat older arm) | 14:43 |
| Macer | SpeedEvil: haha | 14:43 |
| RST38h | BTW, there is also that iRiver (?) iPodish gadget | 14:43 |
| Macer | so ... 3 things? :) | 14:43 |
| SpeedEvil | It is however infinitely faster than pandora with the newer arm :) | 14:43 |
| Macer | is an iriver a8? | 14:43 |
| RST38h | Macer: Well, I did not wanrt to mention iPhone, but it is also Cortex based | 14:44 |
| Macer | haha | 14:44 |
| lardman | javispedro: though how we work out the functionality will be another question, going from the wonders of reversed to decent C is painful | 14:44 |
| lardman | I should try writing a tool to do that | 14:44 |
| RST38h | Macer: Touchbook also qualifies | 14:44 |
| Macer | | Maemo 5 will not be available for 770/n8x0/iPhone | 14:44 |
| Macer | :) | 14:44 |
| Macer | was maemo available for an iphone? | 14:44 |
| javispedro | Macer, I guess someone asked for it here ;) | 14:45 |
| lardman | no | 14:45 |
| Macer | maemo for iphone? | 14:45 |
| Macer | isn't there an app that does that? | 14:45 |
| Macer | :) | 14:45 |
| Macer | sorry. couldn't help it... bbl | 14:45 |
| wazd | ahahaha | 14:45 |
| RST38h | Well, nothing prevents us from creating a fictional Garage project that ports Mer to iPhone | 14:45 |
| wazd | I've found a blooper in maemo 5 promo movie :D | 14:45 |
| lcuk | wazd, paste the stuff you posted into a mail | 14:46 |
| javispedro | yep, you buy an iphone, a n900, install vncviewer on iphone, use x11vnc on n900, et voilà! | 14:46 |
| RST38h | I am sure wazd will oblige with some screenshots, etc | 14:46 |
| wazd | lcuk: ok | 14:46 |
| lcuk | ta :) | 14:46 |
| RST38h | wazd: ? | 14:46 |
| wazd | RST38h: http://maemo.nokia.com/? that one on the main page | 14:46 |
| wazd | RST38h: last seconds, hand locks the device, but the lock stays up | 14:47 |
| lardman | javispedro: I guess looking for where it interfaces with the GPS chipset is the best bet, then we can start talking to it, or try intercepting the comms | 14:47 |
| RST38h | I told myself NOT TO WATCH THIS MOVIE AGAIN | 14:47 |
| wazd | maybe it returns to the top though :) | 14:47 |
| wazd | RST38h: why? pretty cool :P | 14:47 |
| javispedro | lardman, I thought it was pure serial? is there something else? | 14:47 |
| RST38h | Had to clean floor of saliva three times already | 14:47 |
| RST38h | That's why =) | 14:48 |
| lardman | javispedro: gpsdriver <-> Ti5300? I don't know | 14:49 |
| wazd | RST38h: yeah, I'm trying to keep myself :) | 14:49 |
| lcuk | that vid is really cool :$ | 14:49 |
| javispedro | well, there's a serial channel for sure there. | 14:49 |
| lardman | the chipset isn't exposed to the outside world | 14:49 |
| javispedro | (my tablet is charging at the moment so can't confirm) | 14:49 |
| javispedro | the app opened /dev/ttyS0 | 14:49 |
| lardman | that serial channel /dev entry is for the output | 14:49 |
| lardman | NMEA strings | 14:50 |
| javispedro | ttyS0?? | 14:50 |
| javispedro | no | 14:50 |
| RST38h | wazd: I see what you mean, it is not a mistake | 14:50 |
| lardman | no? | 14:50 |
| javispedro | that wasn't NMEA at all. | 14:50 |
| RST38h | wazd: the lock slider behaves the same as one in n810 | 14:50 |
| javispedro | unless I'm in idiot, which could be... | 14:50 |
| RST38h | wazdL locks the device and goes back into its original position | 14:50 |
| lardman | hmm, how does gpsd talk to the GPS then? | 14:50 |
| wazd | RST38h: I don't have n810, but I guess 5800 has the same | 14:50 |
| javispedro | /dev/pgps | 14:50 |
| lardman | ah ok, in which case it might be easier | 14:50 |
| RST38h | wazd: yea, but smaller and punier | 14:50 |
| RST38h | wazd: n810 has got a real metal slider, very nice | 14:51 |
| lardman | javispedro: been a long time since I looked at this, all forgotten now :) | 14:51 |
| lardman | have you collected output from the serial device then? | 14:51 |
| javispedro | np, I don't know the first thing about GPS.. (not even NMEA) | 14:51 |
| javispedro | yes lardman | 14:51 |
| lardman | NMEA is just ascii, you'd recognise it | 14:52 |
| javispedro | damn, it's on the tablet too | 14:52 |
| javispedro | I want to let it charge in peace. | 14:52 |
| RST38h | ttyS0 is *not* a GPS, folks | 14:52 |
| lardman | what is it? | 14:52 |
| RST38h | Most likely a debug port | 14:53 |
| RST38h | But it is just my wild guess | 14:53 |
| lardman | it might be a serial channel to the GPS chipset | 14:53 |
| lardman | that would be in the kernel code of course | 14:53 |
| lardman | so we could check and see | 14:53 |
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| RST38h | The chipset uses 2 I2C channels, afaik | 14:53 |
| RST38h | One for data, another for control | 14:53 |
| javispedro | ok, I'm booting the tablet... :P | 14:54 |
| javispedro | damn thing is that /proc does not show fds for devices | 14:54 |
| RST38h | Even if they are mapped to some tty devices (probably not or somebody would have found by now), it is VERY unlikely ttyS0 would be used | 14:54 |
| lcuk | my wifi goes from 2000kb/s when on desk to 58000kb/s when on the floor | 14:54 |
| * lcuk shakes head | 14:54 | |
| lcuk | errr b lol | 14:55 |
| lardman | gpsdriver does open ttyS0 though | 14:55 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Metal desk, AP located on the floor? | 14:55 |
| lcuk | wooden | 14:55 |
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| javispedro | and reads from it, a lot. | 14:55 |
| RST38h | lardman: Maybe looking for external GPS? | 14:55 |
| lardman | ironwood? | 14:55 |
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| fnordianslip | is there anyone using modest on diablo with a .mac or mobileme email account that has it working with IMAP(S), as it hasn't worked for me for months on my n800 and I'm concerned that it won't work on the n900 either? | 14:55 |
| lcuk | ap has metal bed tho | 14:55 |
| lcuk | between us | 14:55 |
| lardman | RST38h: yeah might be | 14:55 |
| javispedro | what does gpsdriver have to do with an external gps? isn't that gpsd job. | 14:55 |
| javispedro | ? | 14:55 |
| lardman | I think so, but who knows ;) | 14:56 |
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| RST38h | lardman: Looking at Ubuntu desktop, it tends to map USB RS232 devices to ttyS* | 14:56 |
| javispedro | ttyUSB* in debian here | 14:56 |
| RST38h | lardman: it is possible that BT serial devices are mapped there as well | 14:56 |
| javispedro | RST38h, no, the device exists here. | 14:56 |
| javispedro | I can read and write to it. | 14:56 |
| RST38h | hmm | 14:57 |
| RST38h | What does it return? | 14:57 |
| javispedro | blocks. | 14:57 |
| javispedro | (for reads) | 14:57 |
| javispedro | writes go through. | 14:57 |
| RST38h | does not return anything then... | 14:57 |
| javispedro | wait until I get gpsdriver to do its magic. | 14:58 |
| javispedro | gpsdriver opens /dev/ttyS0 O_RDW | 14:59 |
| RST38h | mhm | 14:59 |
| javispedro | and reads a LOT of information from it. | 14:59 |
| javispedro | its outputting information now | 14:59 |
| RST38h | ok...when you run Map or something that initializes GPS, and while it is running read /dev/ttyS0, does it read anything? =) | 14:59 |
| javispedro | not nmea commands, but the same 250-750 byte packets I found yesterday | 14:59 |
| javispedro | yes | 14:59 |
| javispedro | it does some ioctls on it, i don't know if they're standard serial or something propietary. | 15:00 |
| lardman | gpsdriver talks about getting "attributes" from the serial port | 15:00 |
| javispedro | if the ioctls are propietary they should appear in kernel. | 15:00 |
| javispedro | reading from /dev/ttyS0 also "robs" the data from gpsdriver | 15:01 |
| javispedro | so now gpsd does not output any NMEA data | 15:01 |
| RST38h | adding proprietary ioctls to a generic tty device would be a hack =) | 15:01 |
| RST38h | Oh wait somebody has researched it before! | 15:02 |
| javispedro | btw, the packages start becoming more interesting (more visual entropy) as the number of satellites | 15:02 |
| javispedro | **of visible satellites increases. | 15:02 |
| javispedro | *the packets. | 15:02 |
| RST38h | Look here: http://andrew.daviel.org/N810-FAQ.html | 15:02 |
| RST38h | (search for ttyS0) | 15:02 |
| javispedro | heh, I'm doing what he says to test this | 15:03 |
| javispedro | only with strace | 15:03 |
| * RST38h cannot believe they used ttyS0 for gps...Mhm | 15:04 | |
| javispedro | try it if you want, /etc/init.d/gpsdriver stop, strace /usr/sbin/gpsdriver, /usr/libexec/navicore-gps[tab-complete] ;) , cat /dev/ttyS= | 15:04 |
| lardman | does it write any data to the tty? | 15:05 |
| javispedro | lardman, during the first 30 seconds or so it writes like crazy | 15:05 |
| lardman | hmm, so it might be sending over the almanac | 15:05 |
| javispedro | not a file though, since it seems to read inbetween | 15:05 |
| lardman | well it might write a sat, then check for reponse,e tc | 15:05 |
| javispedro | if you can get better serial monitor tools than doing hd /dev/ttyS0 you may get the accumulated sizes of what is transferred and correlate with nvd_data | 15:06 |
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| javispedro | Ctrl+C'd hd /dev/ttyS0 and gpsd starts outputting nmea again :) | 15:08 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: tehre are only so many ports on the SoC - the GTA01 had the GPS on tty02 IIRC. | 15:10 |
| lardman | the question is just whether gpsdriver reformats the already processed output from ttyS0, or if it accepts raw data and does the processing | 15:10 |
| javispedro | i'm yet to see it writing something to ttyS0 after the initial processing | 15:10 |
| * SpeedEvil tries to work out a nice case. | 15:10 | |
| RST38h | SpeedEvil: You mean they simply plugged 5300 into the SoC hw serial port? | 15:11 |
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| RST38h | Instead of using the I2C ports? | 15:11 |
| SpeedEvil | If it is fairly dumb - and can only lock and track satellites with hints given by the blob - then you will see new configs every hour or so as new GPSs rise. | 15:12 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: yes | 15:12 |
| RST38h | Ehehe | 15:12 |
| RST38h | on the other hand, it makes things simpler | 15:12 |
| RST38h | for programmers that is | 15:12 |
| lardman | gpsdriver does do lots of calculations though, so chances are it is indeed doing the heavy lifting | 15:12 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, ping | 15:12 |
| RST38h | lardman: There is a guy from Bangalore on linkedin who claims he has done 5300 drivers | 15:13 |
| lardman | the function at offset BF5C is a beast | 15:13 |
| RST38h | lardman: Does not seem to be related to nokia | 15:13 |
| RST38h | lardman: maybe ask him for some pointers? | 15:13 |
| lardman | RST38h: fancy sending him an email and asking? | 15:13 |
| lardman | I'm not on linkedin | 15:13 |
| RST38h | Well I can try...a moment | 15:13 |
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| SpeedEvil | RST38h: the hammerhead chip on the GTA01 openmoko device was a fairly dumb thing that talked over serial - and the host had to do all the heavy lifting - the position calculation. All the hammerhead did was the absolute hard-realtime stuff. | 15:14 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: and it used almost exactly the same CPU amount as the gps5300 blob | 15:14 |
| lardman | ok, so we need to work out what the blob outputs then | 15:15 |
| lardman | formatwise | 15:15 |
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| lardman | and compare with http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol | 15:15 |
| SpeedEvil | Also - I would expect most OEMs who have 'written drivers' to have simply linked the binary library they get from TI into their own code. | 15:15 |
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| lardman | yep | 15:15 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: I _really_ doubt it's anything similar in detail. | 15:15 |
| lardman | that may be what that lib was we were talking about earlier | 15:15 |
| RST38h | lardman: It wants money to let me send him email | 15:15 |
| lardman | not in detail, but in terms of the sizes | 15:15 |
| lardman | lol | 15:16 |
| lardman | don't worry then | 15:16 |
| SpeedEvil | So 'I have written drivers' may be true - but uninteresting - as they've written a shim only - not the driver. | 15:16 |
| RST38h | SpeedEvil: Well, it seems logical thing to do, if you want to keep the gps chip size down (5300 is one of the smallest on the market) | 15:16 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: yep. | 15:16 |
| lardman | SpeedEvil: yeah | 15:16 |
| RST38h | lardman: LinkedIn is really reallystupid... | 15:17 |
| *** lardman is now known as lardman|afk | 15:17 | |
| lardman|afk | bbiam | 15:17 |
| SpeedEvil | Sorry if I'm going over the same stuff as last night - I don't recall exactly who was around. | 15:17 |
| javispedro | gotta go too, bye | 15:18 |
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| * RST38h suspects johnx is joyful nowadays: Sharp is resurrecting the Zaurus line | 15:19 | |
| crashanddie | RST38h: sharpozaurus? | 15:20 |
| RST38h | kinda | 15:21 |
| RST38h | they came up with some other variation of the netbook name, netwalker or something | 15:21 |
| jeremiah | RST38h: What OS will it run? | 15:21 |
| jeremiah | Didn't the Zaurus run linux? | 15:22 |
| slonopotamus | already runs. ubuntu. | 15:22 |
| jeremiah | I wanted one of those back in the day | 15:22 |
| jeremiah | Oh, the new ones run ooboontoo? | 15:22 |
| jeremiah | Cool | 15:22 |
| *** lardman|afk is now known as lardman | 15:26 | |
| jeremiah | wazd: what is sdlperl? | 15:27 |
| slonopotamus | jeremiah, http://www.liliputing.com/2009/08/sharp-netwalker-pc-z1-what-you-get-when-you-shrink-a-netbook.html | 15:27 |
| jeremiah | I know I can look it up, but I wanted to hear from you. :) | 15:28 |
| jeremiah | slonopotamus: Thanks | 15:28 |
| * jeremiah surfs | 15:28 | |
| lardman | games using Perl? | 15:28 |
| wazd | jeremiah: are you sure I'm the one to ask? :D | 15:28 |
| slonopotamus | not best article, but shows the point | 15:28 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Ubuntu | 15:28 |
| jeremiah | wazd: heh | 15:29 |
| jeremiah | RST38h: Cool | 15:29 |
| jeremiah | Nice little device. | 15:29 |
| crashanddie | lardman: still quickest for strings parsing | 15:29 |
| jeremiah | wazd: awesome, perl bindings for sdl | 15:29 |
| jeremiah | I have to check that out | 15:30 |
| slonopotamus | frozen bubble is fully written in perl | 15:30 |
| wazd | heh, theming guy from symbian came to the tmo | 15:30 |
| wazd | he's actually selling HTC ripoffs, omg | 15:30 |
| slonopotamus | jeremiah, very good kb, i must say | 15:30 |
| jeremiah | slonopotamus: Really? CDidn't know that. | 15:30 |
| jeremiah | slonopotamus: good kb? What is kb? Kilobyte? | 15:31 |
| slonopotamus | jeremiah, keyboard :) on netwalker | 15:31 |
| jeremiah | ah, okay | 15:31 |
| wazd | jeremiah: are you drunk or something? :D | 15:31 |
| slonopotamus | jeremiah, yep, frozen bubble is in perl | 15:31 |
| jeremiah | I just don't live on the internet like you crazies. | 15:31 |
| jeremiah | ;] | 15:31 |
| wazd | jeremiah: shut up :D | 15:32 |
| crashanddie | slonopotamus: SDL isn't perl | 15:32 |
| jeremiah | sdlperl is though | 15:32 |
| wazd | bbl, McDonalds siege | 15:32 |
| crashanddie | slonopotamus: that's like saying my car is made purely out of metal, all the while ignoring the fuel and whatnot | 15:32 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | jeremiah: yes, I uploaded that for Frozen Bubble... the available space on the N900 for installing applications is enough for Perl, perl-modules, and the Frozen Bubble data files :p | 15:32 |
| Md | I am unable to find the ppp package in maemo 5, where is it? | 15:33 |
| Md | (I am the debian ppp maintainer) | 15:33 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: what's the app space? | 15:33 |
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| crashanddie | z4chh: !! | 15:33 |
| slonopotamus | crashanddie, ... game sources itself are perl. | 15:33 |
| qwerty12_N810 | crashanddie: I can't remember off the top of my head, but I was down to ~10MB after installing it and its dependencies from about 70MB | 15:33 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: are you serious? | 15:34 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: so we have 32GB of space but can't install squat? | 15:34 |
| qwerty12_N810 | crashanddie: eh? | 15:34 |
| jeremiah | Md: Hmm, I'll look for it | 15:35 |
| jeremiah | Md: But if you want to port it to Maemo . . . | 15:35 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: how much space can we use for installing apps on the n900? | 15:35 |
| qwerty12_N810 | crashanddie: shit, there's a shitton of space for installing stuff... about ~1GB | 15:35 |
| crashanddie | 1gb is a shitton? | 15:35 |
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| crashanddie | The 80s called, they want their terminology back | 15:35 |
| slonopotamus | qwerty12_N810, partitioned in some ugly way? | 15:35 |
| qwerty12_N810 | crashanddie: Compared to the tablets before it, yes :) | 15:36 |
| Md | jeremiah: I *did* look for it and I expect that it has already been ported (I remember finding it in older versions) | 15:36 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: only what, 4 times more? | 15:36 |
| qwerty12_N810 | slonopotamus: think so... 768MB is reserved for swap | 15:36 |
| X-Fade | Md: What would you use it for on Maemo? | 15:36 |
| slonopotamus | qwerty12_N810, well, disable it? :) | 15:36 |
| crashanddie | I'm gonna sound like the eternal whiner I am | 15:36 |
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| frals | so wait, you couldnt use the other ~30gb to actually install stuff on? that sounds... err... yeah | 15:36 |
| Md | X-Fade: connecting to the internet? | 15:36 |
| slonopotamus | X-Fade, pptp? | 15:36 |
| crashanddie | but seriously 256MB of RAM and 1GB of executable storage is absolute shite | 15:37 |
| qwerty12_N810 | I better stfu. I'm already confusing myself | 15:37 |
| X-Fade | Md: Isn't it doing that already? :) | 15:37 |
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| crashanddie | they could've at least upped to 512MB of RAM and stop with the stupid partitionnnning | 15:37 |
| crashanddie | wow, bit too many n's there | 15:37 |
| slonopotamus | :D | 15:37 |
| RST38h | wazd: url? | 15:37 |
| Md | X-Fade: yes, and I expect that it does using that package | 15:38 |
| X-Fade | crashanddie: There is no 512 package available. | 15:38 |
| crashanddie | X-Fade: hmm? | 15:38 |
| X-Fade | crashanddie: Remember that everything is on one chip. | 15:38 |
| Firebird | hey, X-Fade, are the "Request to be maintainer of this package" links functional anymore in maemo.org/packages ? | 15:38 |
| kirma | chashhanddie: maintaining contents in RAM uses power | 15:38 |
| crashanddie | ok, here's how things work in the big bad corporation world | 15:38 |
| RST38h | ...or you have to pay twice as much | 15:38 |
| lardman | crashanddie: think of the usage case, seems ok to me | 15:38 |
| X-Fade | Firebird: Should be, I just need to approve them manually. | 15:39 |
| kirma | of course, pushing things to swap and disabling memory refresh partially is theroretically possible | 15:39 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: About that XBSC-thing, it is pretty useless unless you let people without bugzilla accuonts submit bug trackers | 15:39 |
| Firebird | X-Fade, ah, all it gives me is a login page, which then brings me to another one | 15:39 |
| crashanddie | nokia calls the chipmaker, and says "we need 100k of your [insert model here], but we need to have more ram on it, call me when you have it" | 15:39 |
| RST38h | crashanddie: And Samsung responds "eat what we have cooked or fuck off" | 15:40 |
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| kirma | power management is often deciding factor, in addition to the plain expected need | 15:40 |
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| crashanddie | RST38h: and you honestly believe any salesperson in their right mind would say that? | 15:40 |
| X-Fade | crashanddie: Which then costs 3x as much and has lower yields. | 15:40 |
| crashanddie | RST38h: good to see you still believe in christmas ;) | 15:40 |
| RST38h | crashanddie: With Samsung, yes | 15:40 |
| X-Fade | Firebird: Hmm that is not good.. | 15:40 |
| crashanddie | X-Fade: no, not at all | 15:40 |
| RST38h | crashanddie: 100k of chips is small fry for Samsung | 15:41 |
| crashanddie | RST38h: true | 15:41 |
| crashanddie | RST38h: but I doubt they only ordered 100k | 15:41 |
| crashanddie | how much do they buy the chip for? $25? | 15:41 |
| RST38h | They may well have, nobody knows how N900 will sell yet | 15:41 |
| RST38h | crashanddie: google for prices | 15:41 |
| RST38h | Probably less than $25 | 15:41 |
| crashanddie | what's the chip? | 15:41 |
| crashanddie | name | 15:41 |
| RST38h | I would say $7..$15 range for those RAM+ROM Samsung chips | 15:42 |
| RST38h | anyways, have to go, sorry | 15:42 |
| crashanddie | np | 15:42 |
| crashanddie | but I still say, they screwed themselves | 15:42 |
| kirma | http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/products/dram/Products_MobileSDRAM.html | 15:42 |
| kirma | which other manufacturer has half a gigabyte of RAM on their phone? I'm pretty certain some show-off manufacturer, such as samsung itself, would have one on the market if it would make sense. | 15:43 |
| crashanddie | ok, please get the kids out of the room | 15:43 |
| crashanddie | the n900 has never been about being a phone | 15:43 |
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| crashanddie | it's the whole platform | 15:44 |
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| X-Fade | Firebird: Are you logged in before you clicked the link? | 15:44 |
| Firebird | yes X-Fade | 15:44 |
| kirma | it's pretty bad karma for nokia if it has iphone-style lack of battery life. | 15:44 |
| crashanddie | how much RAM is used by the OS/desktop by default? 80M? | 15:44 |
| kirma | without benefit that 95% of users could see | 15:44 |
| X-Fade | Firebird: ok, let me debug it ;) | 15:44 |
| kirma | I mean, with benefit that at most 5% can see | 15:45 |
| crashanddie | kirma: still talking to me? If so learn to use IRC, and prepend your sentences with my nickname | 15:45 |
| slonopotamus | crashanddie, he talks to everyone in channel, including you :P | 15:46 |
| crashanddie | fair enough | 15:46 |
| kirma | wish whatever you want... I've used IRC for last fifteen years... and this is the first time I see someone complaining about that :) | 15:46 |
| jeremiah | Yeah, usually people complain about the opposite. ;] | 15:47 |
| crashanddie | jeremiah: when you have a conversation IRL with someone, you look at their face, right? | 15:47 |
| jeremiah | crashanddie: I have flame retardent underpants on, you can't troll me. | 15:47 |
| crashanddie | jeremiah: not trolling, just proving a point | 15:48 |
| crashanddie | why does this HSM not want to play along :( | 15:49 |
| X-Fade | Firebird: Which package btw? | 15:50 |
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| jeremiah | Whoa, there is a space invaders clone also written in sdlperl | 15:50 |
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| jeremiah | Have to see if I can port that | 15:50 |
| VDVsx | jeremiah, anyone porting sldperl ? | 15:51 |
| VDVsx | *sdlperl | 15:52 |
| Firebird | X-Fade, knights and knights-data | 15:52 |
| Firebird | and also pokerth (haven't tried packages which aren't mine :o) | 15:52 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N810, ping | 15:53 |
| qwerty12_N810 | VDVsx: pong | 15:53 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: you in the city today? | 15:53 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: or still in your shitty peckham? | 15:53 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N810, did you already ported FB for Fremantle ? | 15:54 |
| qwerty12_N810 | crashanddie: yes to second one | 15:54 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | VDVsx: uploading it later | 15:54 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: are you seriously in peckham? | 15:54 |
| qwerty12_N810 | No, Forest Gate, but, hey, they're probably equal in terms of shittiness... | 15:54 |
| MrGoose | is there a yahoo upcoming frontend for maemo? | 15:54 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N810, ah, so I will stop, since I'm need sdlperl too :) | 15:55 |
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| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: don't feel too bad, my pied-a-terre in the UK is in "Grove Park" | 15:55 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: we should meet up once, how about you come down to greenwich park? | 15:56 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Sorry, I don't feel like getting raped | 15:56 |
| * qwerty12_N810 hides | 15:56 | |
| MrGoose | I ask because the words confuse google | 15:56 |
| crashanddie | hehehe | 15:56 |
| crashanddie | MrGoose: not only google | 15:56 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: damn, you've seen through my evil plan | 15:57 |
| MrGoose | http://upcoming.yahoo.com/ | 15:57 |
| crashanddie | lmao | 15:58 |
| crashanddie | hackspace actually still is a living project? | 15:58 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: pong | 15:58 |
| crashanddie | Jaffa: ping | 15:58 |
| MrGoose | crashanddie: whois'ed me or looked at yahoo upcoming? | 15:58 |
| Jaffa | crashanddie: pong | 15:59 |
| crashanddie | MrGoose: Yahoo | 15:59 |
| MrGoose | crashanddie: actually it is. I went there once. Nice place | 15:59 |
| MrGoose | but Im also on their irc channel | 15:59 |
| crashanddie | MrGoose: hang on, which one is this? | 15:59 |
| crashanddie | Is this the London one? | 15:59 |
| MrGoose | yeah | 15:59 |
| crashanddie | or US? | 15:59 |
| crashanddie | heh | 15:59 |
| MrGoose | you're talking about the hackspace right? | 15:59 |
| crashanddie | Last September, I went to some hack-meeting, as some mate from IRC asked me to tag along | 16:00 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N810, you didn't uploaded sdlperl yet, did you ? if you need help ping me ;) | 16:00 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | VDVsx: uploaded ;) | 16:00 |
| crashanddie | I got there, and it was just a bunch of introverted geeks who were trying to predent to have a pathetic excuse of a social life | 16:00 |
| crashanddie | one guy actually had a radio around his neck, and was listening to what he claimed was the cops | 16:00 |
| MrGoose | crashanddie: I just went there out of morbid curiosity | 16:00 |
| MrGoose | but it was nice | 16:01 |
| qwerty12_N810 | VDVsx: Redirected it to use Maemo's perl and got it to set the title properly. Enabled GL and made it build with that static OGG libsdlmixer | 16:01 |
| crashanddie | MrGoose: one of them asked me if I'd be interested in investing in renting a place so people could get together and just do some random projects | 16:01 |
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| MrGoose | rape alarm! | 16:01 |
| MrGoose | oh wait. They do have a place now | 16:01 |
| crashanddie | I don't know which kid they got to pay for it | 16:02 |
| crashanddie | but it reeked of dodgy squared | 16:02 |
| MrGoose | they rent it off donations | 16:02 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N810, you dropped GLUT support ? | 16:02 |
| slonopotamus | ~rape MrGoose | 16:02 |
| * infobot takes MrGoose behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams | 16:02 | |
| MrGoose | with infobot its consensual | 16:03 |
| qwerty12_N810 | VDVsx: No, it said GL and GLU were enabled in the build log | 16:03 |
| VDVsx | ok, gonna check | 16:03 |
| crashanddie | MrGoose: the way he asked me, it wasn't a donation | 16:03 |
| crashanddie | MrGoose: it was more like "How do you feel about giving away 300 quid a month, for us, your pals you just met tonight" | 16:03 |
| MrGoose | heh then it may have been someone else | 16:04 |
| crashanddie | probably | 16:04 |
| crashanddie | but I try to stay well away from those dodgy places | 16:04 |
| crashanddie | worst thing you could do to your CV is stuff like that | 16:05 |
| MrGoose | crashanddie: well someone at the hackspace taught me how to solder with his equipment | 16:05 |
| crashanddie | that is, if you want to have a worthy carreer doing something else than connecting routers and resetting printers | 16:05 |
| MrGoose | I bet that sounds really dodgy | 16:05 |
| MrGoose | sounded better in my head :D | 16:05 |
| lardman | qwerty12_N810: I'm in London week on Thursday, beers? | 16:05 |
| lardman | crashanddie: :) | 16:06 |
| crashanddie | MrGoose: PMSL | 16:06 |
| crashanddie | lardman: I'm flying out to Kiev tomorrow morning | 16:06 |
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| lardman | how long for? | 16:06 |
| crashanddie | lardman: coming back friday evening | 16:06 |
| qwerty12_N810 | lardman: Metropolitan Police may have something to say about that | 16:06 |
| crashanddie | if you're available friday I'm good | 16:06 |
| lardman | qwerty12_N810: lol | 16:06 |
| crashanddie | qwerty12_N810: don't be a bloody wimp | 16:06 |
| lardman | crashanddie: no, only there for the day | 16:06 |
| crashanddie | lardman: shame | 16:06 |
| crashanddie | lardman: where you at normally? | 16:07 |
| lardman | crashanddie: and now I think about it will be the middle to avoid peak hours on the train | 16:07 |
| lardman | am in Bath | 16:07 |
| lardman | you heading to the summit? | 16:07 |
| crashanddie | doubt it | 16:07 |
| lardman | beer's good over there :) | 16:07 |
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| crashanddie | I've pretty much stopped using my NIT, might buy the n900, but taking a few days off and flying out + hotel seems a bit weird considering I'm no longer active in any of the projects | 16:08 |
| lardman | yeah, fair enough | 16:08 |
| lardman | right have to soot, bbl | 16:08 |
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| crashanddie | ttyl | 16:08 |
| lardman|afk | s/soot/shoot | 16:08 |
| MrGoose | so no app for yahoo upcoming | 16:09 |
| MrGoose | *? | 16:10 |
| javispedro | o, btw, before I forget lardman, I found 32-bit floating point M_PI in the gpsdriver binary (in case you've not looked at the irc logs) | 16:11 |
| javispedro | and with this everything we found yesterday has been said already :) | 16:12 |
| Firebird | woa, libGLU is in the SDK... but where's the header file | 16:12 |
| javispedro | (oh, he's gone :P well, I'll try to remember) | 16:12 |
| slonopotamus | Firebird, in -dev package? | 16:13 |
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| Firebird | slonopotamus, thought I had it installed, but I'll check again | 16:14 |
| javispedro | Firebird, libgl-dev provides /usr/include/GL/glu.h | 16:16 |
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| Firebird | ah, thanks javispedro, was installing gles-dev - the powervr chip supports full opengl 2.0? | 16:18 |
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| javispedro | no.... but I don't know if the usual GLU works | 16:19 |
| javispedro | "There is no GLU (OpenGL Utility Library). However, it is possible to find on the internet implementations of GLU functions, suitable for OpenGL ES; " | 16:20 |
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| Firebird | ah | 16:21 |
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| javispedro | also, how's the "switch hildon-desktop to game mode" feature going? | 16:25 |
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| X-Fade | Firebird: Can you try again? | 16:30 |
| andre__ | anybody knows how to find out which package a specific gconf key is installed by? | 16:31 |
| Firebird | X-Fade, works now | 16:33 |
| X-Fade | Firebird: Great. Little rights bug squashed ;) | 16:33 |
| javispedro | andre__, only if the key uses a schema. If it does not, any application could have set any key I think. | 16:34 |
| Firebird | X-Fade, hmm, trying another package brings me to the login page | 16:34 |
| andre__ | javispedro, hmm, how can i find out if the key uses a schema? :-P | 16:34 |
| javispedro | if you're using gconf editor it should show a schemes tree somewhere | 16:35 |
| andre__ | hmm, looks like i will spend some time with "man gconftool-2"... | 16:35 |
| javispedro | or grep /etc/gconf/schemas | 16:35 |
| andre__ | thanks, will try | 16:36 |
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| javispedro | e.g. grep -ri /apps/osso/apps/controlpanel/group_ids /etc/gconf/schemas/ -> returns some hits in hildon-control-panel.schemas which is installed by pkg hildon-control-panel | 16:37 |
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| fabiand | hm hi. has someone got a link containing the reason for switching to qt? | 17:21 |
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| angasule | fabiand: its awesomeness and the drinking of the cool-aid, here, have some | 17:22 |
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| angasule | fabiand: and probably the fact that nokia controls it helped a bit :) | 17:23 |
| fabiand | angasule: no thanks. | 17:23 |
| angasule | fabiand: you like GTK better? | 17:23 |
| fabiand | angasule: yes. | 17:23 |
| SpeedEvil | has trolltek relicensed? I remember probklems like you couldn't make a commercial app without paying for a license. | 17:24 |
| angasule | why? I'm curious :) | 17:24 |
| javispedro | trolltech? nokia. | 17:24 |
| angasule | SpeedEvil: well, Nokia relicensed | 17:24 |
| javispedro | relicensed to lgpl. | 17:24 |
| SpeedEvil | thought qt was trolltech | 17:24 |
| angasule | SpeedEvil: the license was changed to LGPL after the buyout (same as GTK) | 17:24 |
| SpeedEvil | I've not been tracking it for a bit | 17:24 |
| angasule | SpeedEvil: Nokia bought Trolltech | 17:24 |
| SpeedEvil | ah | 17:25 |
| fabiand | angasule: i favor the attitude the gnome community. and design decisions in gnome apps as well as the evolutionary process of gtk. | 17:25 |
| angasule | aah, ok, what is your experience with Qt? | 17:25 |
| SpeedEvil | QT means we can;t run random X apps? | 17:26 |
| fabiand | angasule: not much, but: i'm not talking that much about technical benefits, but the overall feeling. | 17:26 |
| SpeedEvil | (I know they may be poor UI wise in some cases) | 17:26 |
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| angasule | SpeedEvil: eh? I don't understand your question | 17:26 |
| SpeedEvil | angasule: I thought QT implied no X. I am probably confused. | 17:27 |
| angasule | SpeedEvil: indeed, Qt apps can run on X or on the framebuffer, same as GTK | 17:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | angasule: so normally maemo will be running Qt on the framebuffer, and you cna start an x server if you want? | 17:28 |
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| javispedro | I don't think they're ditching Xomap anytime soon | 17:29 |
| jeremiah | Qt is the future. | 17:29 |
| jeremiah | Right now, its GTK | 17:29 |
| javispedro | X11, I meant (they actually ditched Xomap in "Fremantel" :P ) | 17:29 |
| angasule | SpeedEvil: I don't know what maemo uses, I haven't used it much, doesn't it run X11? | 17:30 |
| SpeedEvil | jeremiah: yeah - I mean - by the time I get a n900 - it's likely going to be at least a couple of years down the road. | 17:30 |
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| javispedro | angasule, Diablo uses Xomap, Fremantle uses Xorg. | 17:30 |
| angasule | SpeedEvil: I'm guessing maemo will use X11 to keep GTK and Qt apps side by side | 17:30 |
| jeremiah | Yeah. | 17:31 |
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| jeremiah | maemo will support both for the time being, there is no specified date to cut off GTK | 17:32 |
| wazd | Jeez, complains bout n900 are absolutely ridiculous | 17:32 |
| wazd | n900 price* | 17:32 |
| angasule | wazd: some people think it's a phone, that's why they complain, I guess | 17:33 |
| wazd | like "I'll buy it for 300 bucks" | 17:33 |
| wazd | oh yeah, why not 50, why 300? | 17:33 |
| javispedro | the price is way too much for me, but I wouldn't say Nokia's fault. it's on par with the rest of smartphones (aka overpriced) | 17:33 |
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| wazd | javispedro: ok, do you have any charts what's the "right" price, and what's "overprice"? | 17:34 |
| SpeedEvil | For me something like the freerunner - with the stupid graphics accellerator chip ripped out - would just about do. | 17:34 |
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| javispedro | Pandora price does not seem overpriced to me. | 17:34 |
| wazd | javispedro: how much is it? | 17:35 |
| wazd | javispedro: 300? | 17:35 |
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| angasule | 400, I think? | 17:35 |
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| javispedro | $330 according to front page | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | pandora is also not out :P | 17:36 |
| javispedro | yeah, and they might even up the price a bit (they already have once) | 17:36 |
| wazd | ok, so you think that nice look, polished OS, 32 gigs of built in memory, gps, FM and other cool stuff costs, like, 70 bucks? Oh yeah, GSM too | 17:36 |
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| * Stskeeps honestly thinks n900 price is suitable | 17:37 | |
| wazd | I'm not counting marketing and stuff | 17:37 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Not sure about the OS part if Maemo 5 is mostly open.. :p | 17:37 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Stskeeps: same | 17:37 |
| javispedro | i'm used to phones being overpriced. Palm _always_ did it, with even $200 difference. | 17:37 |
| wazd | qwerty12_N810: well, developers get their money for it | 17:37 |
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| Stskeeps | if you add up beagleboard, touchscreen, gps, 3g,.. | 17:38 |
| qwerty12_N810 | wazd: true | 17:38 |
| wazd | qwerty12_N810: except me :D | 17:38 |
| lardman | javispedro: ah, I see it uses sin(), cos(), atan2() and other maths functions too | 17:38 |
| wazd | Yeah, I can't afford n900 too, but I'm pretty fine with it's price, it deserves it | 17:39 |
| javispedro | lardman, heh, those are not vfp. | 17:39 |
| qwerty12_N810 | wazd: They'll only pay you if you move to St. Petersburg or Helsinki :p | 17:39 |
| lardman | javispedro: they can be if libm is vfp built, but they are external symbols so I guess not | 17:39 |
| wazd | qwerty12_N810: I was in St. Petersburg - nothing interesting there :) | 17:40 |
| javispedro | so "gpsdriver does heavyweight calculations"++. | 17:40 |
| lardman | yep, looks that way | 17:40 |
| lardman | at last, a way forward to possibly improve performance | 17:41 |
| javispedro | btw | 17:41 |
| wazd | anyway, I should finish that crappy website or I will be eecuted on monday :) | 17:41 |
| javispedro | seen the references to "Speed & Precision" mode and "Speed" mode? | 17:41 |
| javispedro | both in changelog and binary | 17:41 |
| lardman | though it would be quite annoying to find it's the signal strength after re-implementing gpsdriver ;) | 17:41 |
| lardman | yep | 17:41 |
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| angasule | I want to move to Helsinki!! | 17:42 |
| javispedro | wonder if it's something it sends to the gps or just an internal gpsdriver thing. up so far all I could guess is that it stores the "setting" in some struct pointed by some other struct pointer by a global | 17:42 |
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| SpeedEvil | javispedro: Based on the hammerhead and assuming it's broadly similar - either is plausible. | 17:44 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: you can certainly for any given GPS inputs vary the filtering _lots_ to get different responses to movement. | 17:45 |
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| SpeedEvil | javispedro: There is a complex tradeoff between maximum accelleration and position noise forex. | 17:45 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: or it could be doing something like powering down half the correlators. | 17:46 |
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| wazd | ok, everybody moves to Helsinki and I move to Espoo :P | 17:46 |
| javispedro | whatever it is, they changed the mode to Speed & Precision sometime after complains about slow gps started. | 17:46 |
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| javispedro | (i may have get the dates wrong, so don't really trust this) | 17:47 |
| javispedro | lol some people are actually scared about symbian disappearing | 17:48 |
| angasule | why? :? | 17:48 |
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| javispedro | that's what I'd like to know too. | 17:48 |
| angasule | the only thing I've heard of symbian was 'it takes 5 minutes to boot' or something of the kind | 17:48 |
| javispedro | yeah, I heard that the N900 "booted faster than the N97" and though WTF? | 17:49 |
| javispedro | considering that the N900 runs interpreted scripts as part of the boot process, while Symbian should be a PalmOS-like operating system initializing hw then jmping to user code | 17:49 |
| lardman | Symbian has lots of servers to start up | 17:50 |
| javispedro | it's a microkernel? | 17:50 |
| angasule | what's with the microkernel questions? :) | 17:50 |
| * javispedro reads wikipedia and finds out it is. | 17:51 | |
| lardman | yes | 17:51 |
| lardman | not monolithic | 17:51 |
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| lardman | e.g. it has a window server, and others, (will have to try to remember, been a long while!) | 17:51 |
| javispedro | well, that explains the slowness (flame flame!) ;P | 17:52 |
| lardman | it's also true multitasking, noit sure if the Palm does that these days | 17:52 |
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| javispedro | Palm's kernel had multitasking, the UI did not (all applications run under the same task) | 17:53 |
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| lardman | ok, Symbian is multtasking and multithreaded too | 17:53 |
| angasule | what I like about the N??0 is the real OS | 17:53 |
| lardman | well Symbian has a pretty reasonable unlerlying system, or at least it did back with the Psion 5 which was the last time I was involved with it | 17:53 |
| wjt | 12 years is a long time :P | 17:54 |
| lardman | yeah, but I can't see the underlying system going backwards and still being called the same thing | 17:55 |
| lardman | but then I may be wrong | 17:55 |
| lardman | :) | 17:55 |
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| ecdbitbrusher | Has anybody seen any news related to 'N900 release for the brazilian market'? | 17:56 |
| angasule | not really, but I recommend smuggling :P | 17:56 |
| angasule | silly custom taxes | 17:56 |
| angasule | UnaSur is going to hell if technology taxes don't go down | 17:57 |
| ecdbitbrusher | ye taxes...60% + IVA (18% i guess) + something more... | 17:58 |
| angasule | we have 21% IVA in Argentina, it's ridiculous | 17:59 |
| angasule | same 60%, I thin | 17:59 |
| angasule | k | 17:59 |
| angasule | and hour salaries are *slightly* below EU average :P | 17:59 |
| angasule | s/hour/our/ | 17:59 |
| infobot | angasule meant: and our salaries are *slightly* below EU average :P | 17:59 |
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| soap | not to go too far off topic, but when I was in college (back in the dark ages) the debate was where (between 10 and 15%) the VAT rate started to decrease revenue as it encouraged the growth of black markets. | 18:03 |
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| soap | How pervasive is (for lack of a better work) smuggling in a country with a sales tax that high? | 18:04 |
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| ecdbitbrusher | highly pervasive | 18:05 |
| ecdbitbrusher | in fact not because of sales tax | 18:06 |
| ecdbitbrusher | but because importation taxes | 18:06 |
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| soap | well, duties can be considered the same, for the sake of this argument. ;) | 18:07 |
| angasule | soap: in argentina we used to have a parallel... gah, I'm tired, customs? | 18:07 |
| angasule | soap: so smuggling was pretty much government work he | 18:07 |
| angasule | heh | 18:07 |
| angasule | soap: the VAT itself isn't the main problem, though (IVA = VAT), the customs tax of 60% is | 18:08 |
| angasule | technology salaries are 5-10 times highe in Europe, AND techie junk doesn't have the 60% tax | 18:08 |
| soap | you don't have under-the-table sales of non-imported goods to avoid the VAT? | 18:08 |
| angasule | so why would techheads stay here? it's lose-lose for us | 18:09 |
| soap | (and I dig that IVA = VAT, just stuck in my terminology). | 18:09 |
| angasule | oh, yeah, VAT avoidance is through the sky | 18:09 |
| angasule | usually the VAT-less price is about 10% lower | 18:10 |
| angasule | the seller pockets the difference... | 18:10 |
| angasule | so, consumers get screwed either way :D | 18:10 |
| javispedro | lol love typos | 18:10 |
| javispedro | "MOZZILA" browser | 18:10 |
| javispedro | "Carl Seizz" lens | 18:10 |
| zerojayPC | "Freemangle". | 18:10 |
| soap | someone a little Z happy? | 18:11 |
| javispedro | Freestrangle ;) | 18:11 |
| angasule | ze typos are funny | 18:11 |
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| javispedro | I'm googling to see how the n900 falls down in the "mainstream". | 18:12 |
| javispedro | very funny so far. | 18:12 |
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| LoCusF | javispedro: the Mozzilla browser is nothing, the official Nokia website talks about Maemo-browser :) | 18:14 |
| angasule | I would hope they don't use firefox :P | 18:14 |
| javispedro | well, they own microB, they may call it whatever they want | 18:14 |
| angasule | I like lean GUIs | 18:14 |
| javispedro | it's the usual MicroB. | 18:15 |
| angasule | I use konqueror with a status bar, a button on the top left for bookmarks and the URL bar | 18:15 |
| GiantTalkingCow | I once tried the most recent beta of mobile Firefox (aka Fennec). Great UI, but dog slow. | 18:15 |
| angasule | arora is freakishly fast | 18:15 |
| angasule | I haven't bothered to get flash working with it, but for things like gmail and openstreetmap it works amazingly well | 18:16 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Is it? I'll have to check it out... was decent but nothing amazing when last I used it. | 18:16 |
| javispedro | http://maemo.nokia.com/images/uploads/entry-media/browser-web-standards.jpg | 18:18 |
| angasule | the problem with arora is the very lacking UI | 18:18 |
| angasule | which is understandable considering it was actually a minimal demo app for the webkit renderer :) | 18:18 |
| GiantTalkingCow | I agree. | 18:19 |
| angasule | my favourite UI is konqueror's, by far | 18:19 |
| Luke-Jr | I concur. | 18:19 |
| GiantTalkingCow | On a portable, I'd have to say the very latest Fennec. It take the best elements of Mobile Safari and combines them with Firefox. | 18:19 |
| angasule | well, I don't use any mobile thingies yet :) | 18:20 |
| Luke-Jr | I need to figure out how to get KDE running without eating most of the N810's RAM | 18:20 |
| angasule | konqueror's shortcuts are amazingly useful | 18:20 |
| zerojayPC | Ari Jaaski: "There is a lot of buzz about the N900. But its not done yet. ....sorry gotta take this call ...." | 18:20 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: shortcuts are useless on most handhelds :þ | 18:20 |
| javispedro | zerojayPC, uuh? | 18:20 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: HTC TouchPro has a nice keyboard that might make it doable | 18:20 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: not keyboard shortcuts, but stuff like: gg:search for this text on google | 18:20 |
| Luke-Jr | oh | 18:20 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: also wp: search for this in wikipedia | 18:20 |
| Luke-Jr | yes, that is nice | 18:21 |
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| angasule | Luke-Jr: it2en: search for this in wordreference using the italian to english dictionary | 18:21 |
| Luke-Jr | O.o | 18:21 |
| angasule | I don't need a separate search bar :) | 18:21 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: I'm a language geek :P | 18:21 |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, see that Maemo-Guru article? | 18:21 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: I'm a minor language geek :þ | 18:21 |
| zerojayPC | javispedro: It's from his Twitter account. | 18:22 |
| Luke-Jr | but my language geekyness is mostly eastern | 18:22 |
| angasule | I don't know if KDE itself is worth installing on something like an N900 | 18:22 |
| GiantTalkingCow | I wouldn't. Unless they ever get that portable UI that they've been working on up and running. | 18:23 |
| angasule | most KDE apps wouldn't fit, I think | 18:23 |
| angasule | konversation would be nice, I guess | 18:23 |
| javispedro | GAN8001, nope | 18:23 |
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| angasule | but kopete is unwieldy and tends to use too much CPU | 18:23 |
| javispedro | GAN8001, well, which one? | 18:23 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: I have KDE 4.3 on my N810 | 18:23 |
| GAN8001 | The 10 Awesome Things | 18:23 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: what KDE apps do you use? | 18:24 |
| GiantTalkingCow | Luke-Jr: And it's not laggy? | 18:24 |
| javispedro | the horrible corrections? | 18:24 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: on my N810? none, it's too slow | 18:24 |
| Luke-Jr | XD | 18:24 |
| angasule | heh | 18:24 |
| GAN8001 | In which he first claimed that it was "full Firefox" (whatever the hell that means). | 18:24 |
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| javispedro | and now claims it is "unfortunately" MicroB. | 18:24 |
| GAN8001 | Then made snarky, uninformed comments about MicroB after he was corrected. | 18:24 |
| javispedro | .... | 18:24 |
| javispedro | [sig] | 18:24 |
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| zerojayPC | He just sees Maemo as something else he can write blogs about and hopefully make him money. | 18:25 |
| javispedro | so, did someone ask him what's the difference between the "unfortunate" MicroB, and his "that would rock" Firefox without Firefox Add-ons? | 18:25 |
| angasule | I'll get something kde-ish on the N900 once I get it, I used to run Qt apps on the framebuffer on a laptop with 32MB of RAM :) | 18:25 |
| xuser | I hate the that the N900 won't support HSPA 850/1900 | 18:27 |
| javispedro | zerojayPC, ari has tweeter? | 18:27 |
| angasule | xuser: where is that used anyway? | 18:27 |
| javispedro | I googled his full name but couldn't find his twitter page (lol big typo) | 18:28 |
| zerojayPC | My bad. | 18:28 |
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| xuser | angasule: in my country :-) | 18:29 |
| zerojayPC | Yes, Ari appears to have started a Twitter account and I'm one of the few to find it, apparently. | 18:29 |
| zerojayPC | @jaaksi | 18:29 |
| javispedro | thanks | 18:29 |
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| qwerty12 | X-Fade: ping | 18:29 |
| xuser | angasule: at&t use umts 850/1900 only too no? | 18:29 |
| GAN8001 | angasule, South/Central American, USA AT&T 3G, and Canada. | 18:29 |
| GAN8001 | zerojayPC, hopefully he's slightly less clueless about open source now then he was the last few times we heard from him. | 18:30 |
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| lardman | can I do this?: (f1, f2, f3) = cursor.fetchone() | 18:30 |
| javispedro | if cursor.fetchone() returns a three-element tuple, why not? :) | 18:30 |
| lardman | dunno if it does or not | 18:31 |
| lardman | will it if those are my fields? | 18:31 |
| lardman | or do I need to do: row = cursor.fetchone(), then split the row after the fact, or do 3 calls, one for each elelment using [element_no] tacked on the end? | 18:32 |
| angasule | hmm, Ericsson seems to like it | 18:32 |
| zerojayPC | GAN8001: To be fair, open source is completely alien to almost every single higher up in tech firms. | 18:32 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: I'm holding out for a free device | 18:32 |
| javispedro | lardman, from memory, unpacking should work with both tuples and lists, so I see no reason for it not to work unless it's something really weird (never used cursor) | 18:33 |
| lardman | ok cool, will leave it like that and test. Thanks :) | 18:33 |
| javispedro | if the list is longer it should throw an exception | 18:34 |
| xuser | GAN8001: they could sell hundreds thousands more if the support umts 850/1900, don't know why they don't do it | 18:34 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: a free device? what do you mean? | 18:34 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: something with open specifications that I can run a free OS on | 18:34 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: well, doesn't the N900 count as long as you don't care about 3D? | 18:34 |
| Luke-Jr | eg, not closed like Maemo/N8x0 | 18:34 |
| lardman | Pandora free enough for you? | 18:34 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: I doubt it | 18:34 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: what is closed about maemo other than the 3D driver? | 18:35 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: a lot | 18:35 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: like? | 18:35 |
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| Luke-Jr | angasule: as far as hardware, battery charging and GPS | 18:35 |
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| javispedro | go tell that guy who wants to install maemo on his x86pc to get a "n900 like experience" what is closed about maemo. | 18:35 |
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| Stskeeps | javispedro: the idea isn't actually too far fetched | 18:36 |
| xuser | the tethering app is propietary too | 18:36 |
| zerojayPC | The main reason he can't get an n900 experience on his PC is because the packages to enable that just aren't there yet. | 18:36 |
| crashanddie | lmao | 18:36 |
| Stskeeps | it may be slightly undistributable but it is technically feasible | 18:36 |
| crashanddie | "n900 experience", while no-one has one yet... | 18:36 |
| zerojayPC | exactly. | 18:36 |
| javispedro | n900 marketing video-like experience. | 18:37 |
| javispedro | ;P | 18:37 |
| angasule | I'd love to let go of x86 | 18:37 |
| crashanddie | that's like saying people live the "jimmy hendrix experience" (pun intended) because they snort coke and listen to a bunch of mp3s | 18:37 |
| angasule | at work there were a few laughs over the Mac in the background of that N900 video :P | 18:37 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps, undistributable? does Nokia offer slight undistributable x86 binaries? | 18:38 |
| javispedro | or what you have in mind? | 18:38 |
| GAN8001 | xuser, the cynical and pessimistic side of me says it was a requirement from T-Mobile USA. | 18:38 |
| GAN8001 | zerojayPC, sure, but he's had 4 years to learn. | 18:38 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: rumours claim most packages are built as both x86 and arm | 18:39 |
| javispedro | as in "Maemo netbook rumour"? :O | 18:39 |
| javispedro | but even then are those accessible? | 18:40 |
| angasule | wouldn't it make more sense to make an ARM netbook? :P | 18:40 |
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| X-Fade | GAN8001: Nah, it is just that their default 'modems' have these freqs. | 18:40 |
| X-Fade | GAN8001: There are separate NAM versions for a lot of Nseries phones. And they are always launched later. | 18:41 |
| javispedro | either way that's just a bit sick. it would be more interesting to just reupdate the list of "visible" closed source packages and be done with it. | 18:41 |
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| Stskeeps | javispedro: no, sanity - autobuilder on maemo.org build x86 and armel | 18:41 |
| Stskeeps | x86 built first catches a lot of errors | 18:41 |
| GAN8001 | X-Fade, hopefully not shipped later, as that doesn't help me either. | 18:41 |
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| GAN8001 | I need to get hardware now, or I don't have the energy left to care anymore. | 18:41 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps, ah, so you have "asking Nokia for the x86 build" in mind. | 18:42 |
| X-Fade | qwerty12_N810: pong | 18:42 |
| jjardon | hello, somebody know if the info of this page is updated? http://live.gnome.org/Hildon/Roadmap | 18:42 |
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| X-Fade | GAN8001: Call your provider and tell them to get on with the rest of the world ;) | 18:43 |
| GAN8001 | Milhouse, yeesh. | 18:43 |
| GAN8001 | Milhouse, just a little over-the-top, don't you think? | 18:43 |
| GAN8001 | X-Fade, Nokia is going to be the easier one to convince. | 18:44 |
| qwerty12_N810 | X-Fade: Hi, just tried to upload Frozen Bubble through the Maemo Extras Assistant and I got "File upload error. (tar file) Please try to upload your packages again!" twice, while dput (read: scp) uploaded it just fine. I checked that I was uploading the correct files :) | 18:44 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: aye - but there's the whole issue of hw support | 18:44 |
| X-Fade | qwerty12_N810: What size is the file you are uploading? | 18:46 |
| Stskeeps | which we try to deal with in Mer | 18:46 |
| qwerty12_N810 | X-Fade: The orig.tar.gz is 19.8MB... | 18:46 |
| X-Fade | GAN8001: Well the US is a market for them and normally you would see NAM versions. But Maemo Devices is a new entity, so I don't know. | 18:47 |
| GAN8001 | X-Fade, and if I don't see one, I wont care anymore. | 18:47 |
| GAN8001 | It's been too long already. | 18:47 |
| X-Fade | GAN8001: Well, you can still use it as tablet ;) | 18:47 |
| Stskeeps | BTW, nothing stops people from compiling hildon-desktop from fremantle for x86 in Mer, use GL drivers and closed source themes | 18:47 |
| zerojayPC | I've asked Ari directly through Twitter.. we'll see if he notices. | 18:47 |
| GAN8001 | X-Fade, har har har. | 18:47 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps, I don't know how the whole "eye-candy" system works know, but that's good to know. | 18:48 |
| javispedro | for now we'd better suggest the x86pc to install Mer. | 18:48 |
| javispedro | *the x86pc guy. | 18:48 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: i think that all will be OSS eventually | 18:49 |
| Stskeeps | but we'll see | 18:49 |
| angasule | http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages <-- ok, this seems to be the list, hmm | 18:50 |
| xuser | X-Fade: What's NAM? | 18:51 |
| javispedro | angasule, a bit outdated (e.g browser-ui) | 18:51 |
| lbt | X-Fade: are you planet@maemo ? | 18:51 |
| lardman | xuser: vietnam? :) | 18:52 |
| RST38h | moo | 18:52 |
| lbt | mmm milk | 18:52 |
| xuser | GAN8001: we are out of luck, not even androids phones support umts 850/1900 | 18:52 |
| lardman | look out RST38h | 18:52 |
| xuser | :) | 18:52 |
| angasule | javispedro: it seems it's mostly the battery stuff, though | 18:53 |
| * lbt grabs RST38h's udders... | 18:53 | |
| * RST38h stomps lbt | 18:53 | |
| javispedro | angasule, some UI apps too. | 18:53 |
| angasule | everything else is easily replaceable | 18:53 |
| X-Fade | lbt: yes | 18:53 |
| RST38h | Don't you ever... | 18:53 |
| RST38h | =) | 18:53 |
| angasule | yeah, but UI apps don't bother me, I can just use something else | 18:53 |
| angasule | what is 'Display applet'? | 18:53 |
| lbt | ah good... syndication request :) | 18:53 |
| * qwerty12_N810 puts RST38h in a room with a bull | 18:53 | |
| javispedro | angasule, if you only want OSS Maemo Framework you have it already. Mer. | 18:53 |
| Stskeeps | angasule: one thing to keep in mind: for projects on nokia tablets, nokia doesn't mind distributing nokia sw to nokia devices | 18:54 |
| javispedro | runs on loads of platforms, has hildon libraries, and works very well. | 18:54 |
| RST38h | qwerty: takeitawaytakeitaway | 18:54 |
| kirma | xuser: I'd say that N900 is hardly going to be the only device nokia is planning to release with Maemo... | 18:54 |
| angasule | javispedro: thanks, I'll read up on it | 18:54 |
| zerojayPC | * lbt grabs RST38h's udders... <-- I come back to the window to see this... I think I'm going to leave again. Heh. | 18:54 |
| lbt | Quim kept saying devices | 18:54 |
| Stskeeps | angasule: this means we can have BME .deb package and install it in our systems | 18:54 |
| crashanddie | but quim's english is shit :P | 18:55 |
| angasule | what's BME? | 18:55 |
| Stskeeps | angasule: it's a blob, but you are free to get it, if you own a device | 18:55 |
| Stskeeps | angasule: batter management entity | 18:55 |
| angasule | ah, ok, thanks | 18:55 |
| crashanddie | he could say they're going to start selling ferrari's for $400, when really he means to say "Our devices are super fast" | 18:55 |
| * kirma wonders about the hideous powervr blob | 18:55 | |
| javispedro | that's good, because either way it does not make much sense for nokia's bme to be used on other device | 18:55 |
| javispedro | (nokia's bme implementation is probably full of n8x0'isms) | 18:56 |
| lardman | kirma: hideous? | 18:56 |
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| xuser | kirma: hope it will be pretty soon! :-) | 18:56 |
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| GAN8001 | crashanddie, hahaha! | 18:56 |
| GAN8001 | crashanddie, that's so dead-on accurate. | 18:56 |
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| kirma | lardman: I'm pessimistically fearing it's not so hideous that it'd prevent serious kernel tinkering that's entirely unrelated to it | 18:56 |
| kirma | -not | 18:56 |
| GAN8001 | kirma, kernel driver is open. | 18:57 |
| angasule | hmm, ubuntu derived, I'd prefer debian-derived | 18:57 |
| kirma | huh. I'm positively surprised | 18:57 |
| lardman | kirma: it will be shimmed | 18:57 |
| crashanddie | oh for fuck's sake | 18:57 |
| GAN8001 | xuser, I'd use an iPhone before an Android device. | 18:57 |
| javispedro | GAN8001, that's a weird order :) | 18:57 |
| crashanddie | when it's closed source, people whine, when it's not fast enough, people whine, when it's linux based, people want a bsd license, and when it's derived from ubuntu, people want debian | 18:57 |
| angasule | kirma: the blob is outside the kernel, it couldn't be inside | 18:57 |
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| lbt | angasule: what Mer? | 18:58 |
| kirma | googled around for the PowerVR SGX or whatever under linux (also same series in things like new SoC Atoms), and the results weren't very promising... but I'm glad to be wrong in this thing | 18:58 |
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| angasule | lbt: yes, Mer is Ubuntu derived | 18:58 |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, I don't care for Google's false open source. | 18:58 |
| crashanddie | start your own company and do it yourself. Labour in china doesn't cost that much, and starting a company costs little more than £500 | 18:58 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: though there are sometimes things that you'd like to be able to tune - in batteries which you can't. For example - charge battery to 90% charge max - and the battery longevity goes up. | 18:58 |
| lbt | angasule: well, it's capable of both | 18:58 |
| angasule | kirma: plus, having a blob will make it easier to reverse engineer :) | 18:58 |
| javispedro | crashanddie, as the old saying goes, it's only the complains you read on the Internet :) | 18:58 |
| Stskeeps | lo thp o/ | 18:58 |
| lardman | angasule: well there will probably be a binary blob inside the kernel, but there will be an open source link into the kernel to abide by the GPL | 18:58 |
| lbt | we derive from Ubuntu since it has armv5el.... debian arm port is v4 | 18:58 |
| Stskeeps | ul. Polinezyjska 4/80 | 18:59 |
| Stskeeps | 02-777 Warsaw/Warszawa | 18:59 |
| kirma | I want it BSD! just that there's a megaton of stuff that should be implemented in addition to simple OS port to make it useful in any sense ;) | 18:59 |
| Stskeeps | .... | 18:59 |
| lardman | angasule: then again most of the functionality is in the userspace library afaik | 18:59 |
| RST38h | Get an iPhone (tm) | 18:59 |
| thp | Stskeeps: hey ;) | 18:59 |
| Stskeeps | fucking maemo clipboard | 18:59 |
| RST38h | it is bsd | 18:59 |
| lbt | black slow dead ? | 18:59 |
| GAN8001 | Stskeeps, OS X clipboard is fun, too, it's easy to move faster than it. | 18:59 |
| kirma | RST38h: that sounds like license nagging :P | 19:00 |
| Stskeeps | angasule: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community_firmware_image_distribution | 19:00 |
| crashanddie | GAN8001: I'm used to the swedish/northern europe way of speaking, my boss is a swede | 19:00 |
| kirma | iPhone isn't so BSD, I suspect. huge amount of the API framework and stuff is way too Apple-specific | 19:00 |
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| RST38h | ah who cares it is bsd bsd | 19:01 |
| angasule | iphone doesn't allow multitasking, bleh | 19:01 |
| xuser | GAN8001: I would get an iphone if it had a real keyboard | 19:01 |
| RST38h | bsd doesn't allow multitasking? interesting! | 19:01 |
| javispedro | lol for curiosity I just had a look at the nvidia kernel blob | 19:01 |
| crashanddie | GAN8001: he always uses the same words to describe me "you-nier" (junior), "yust cocker" (just cocky) | 19:01 |
| javispedro | it's 9,8 MiB | 19:01 |
| angasule | I don't like being told what I can't do with my hardware | 19:01 |
| SpeedEvil | xuser: just add one of these http://www.semiaccurate.com/2009/07/31/apple-keyboard-firmware-hack-demonstrated/ | 19:01 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: want to hold out for a free phone with me? ;) | 19:02 |
| kirma | RST38h: well. in this case I'd rather say that only portion that is alone useless is BSD, rest is most certainly not | 19:02 |
| GAN8001 | xuser, long years typing on resistive virtual keyboards have made me about as bad as can be on the iPhone keyboard. | 19:02 |
| Stskeeps | angasule: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/Vendor_Social_Contract is how we handle things re hw in Mer | 19:02 |
| angasule | Luke-Jr: no, I'm getting an N900 and reverse engineering the heck out of it :P | 19:02 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: easier to reverse engineer some other phones I think | 19:02 |
| angasule | only battery and graphics needed on the N900? | 19:03 |
| angasule | it has such nice HW :) | 19:03 |
| angasule | I'm only missing a compass | 19:03 |
| Luke-Jr | angasule: probably GPS, phone, etc too | 19:03 |
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| Luke-Jr | angasule: Samsung OmniaPro uses s3c6410 SoC | 19:04 |
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| Stskeeps | angasule: the problem with battery is really that a bad implementation will cause a battery to explode | 19:04 |
| javispedro | that worries me a lot. | 19:04 |
| angasule | that could be a problem :P | 19:04 |
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| Luke-Jr | Stskeeps: again, that's a reason not to hide the technical information | 19:05 |
| Luke-Jr | hiding information just makes it more likely someone will do it wrong | 19:05 |
| javispedro | so, bme, potentially a cause for battery explosion, is run as a user space daemon under a monolithic non real time kernel? | 19:05 |
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| Stskeeps | and frankly when they say 'this blob you dl and can use in your n8x0' .. that's good enough for me | 19:05 |
| lardman | +1 | 19:06 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps, specially if they compromise to do it, I agree. | 19:06 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: that deal is already there | 19:06 |
| javispedro | I want my powervr!! ;P | 19:06 |
| soap | Stskeeps, the n900 is purely a software charger?\ | 19:06 |
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| lardman|afk | bbl | 19:07 |
| Stskeeps | soap: i don't know about n900 | 19:07 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: you can already grab the libs for n900 through nokia-binaries system | 19:07 |
| soap | And even if it is (increasingly rare for charging circuits not to be in SoCs) there are plenty of OS Li chemistry charging routines. | 19:07 |
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| javispedro | when closed drivers are good enough, nobody complains. see the nvidia driver: complains scale up ONLY when news like "no kernel resolution change due to bad nvidia driver". | 19:08 |
| Luke-Jr | javispedro: wrong. | 19:08 |
| Stskeeps | powervr kernel driver is oss | 19:08 |
| Stskeeps | so will n8x0 gl one | 19:08 |
| Luke-Jr | javispedro: just because nobody has sued nVidia yet doesn't mean nobody complains. | 19:08 |
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| javispedro | Luke-Jr, I think Nokia has been sued more than once. Even I sued Nokia for their bad chips on HP laptops. | 19:09 |
| pH5 | Stskeeps: what? really? | 19:09 |
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| soap | and the N8x0 battery is thermally protected, so unless you hook it up to mains and force 20C down it and overheat it to the point of catastrophic failure, no bad charging routine can destroy the battery. | 19:09 |
| pH5 | where is this information from? | 19:09 |
| Stskeeps | pH5: i think that was last indicatiin | 19:09 |
| Stskeeps | and closed libs | 19:10 |
| ShadowJK | soap, the protection only protects against the entire battery overheating | 19:10 |
| javispedro | the kmod is probably oss because most probably it just presents /dev nodes with mmap support | 19:10 |
| soap | which is how overcharging damages the battery. | 19:10 |
| javispedro | for the library to use. | 19:10 |
| ShadowJK | soap, overdischarging can also cause damage :) | 19:10 |
| soap | when power delivered exceeds the ability of the cell to dissipate excess as heat you get damage. | 19:10 |
| soap | thermal damage is /how/ overcharging damages cells. | 19:11 |
| soap | not two different things. | 19:11 |
| javispedro | lol Luke-Jr I said Nokia, I meant nvidia :P | 19:11 |
| soap | and when power consumed creates cell heat through the magic of internal cell resistance you get cell damage. (over discharging) | 19:12 |
| soap | again, through thermal damage. | 19:12 |
| javispedro | in fact, Nvidia does the kmod blob just for performance reasons. they could very easily switch to a shim kmod, all user-space approach easily, in case they ever get sued by their kmod (which I doubt). | 19:13 |
| soap | now pulling the cell below rated voltage is another issue all around - but again there are plenty of OSS examples of Li chemistry usage which protects from undervolting. | 19:13 |
| ShadowJK | soap, you can damage the battery through overdischarging at an extremely low rate that causes no heat buildup too | 19:13 |
| Luke-Jr | javispedro: no, they can't | 19:13 |
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| Stskeeps | ph5: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=306518&postcount=279 | 19:14 |
| Luke-Jr | javispedro: even a shim kmod would require a Linux license | 19:14 |
| ShadowJK | and overcharging at low rate which doesn't cause heat also damages the battery | 19:14 |
| javispedro | shim oss kmod. | 19:14 |
| Luke-Jr | which they don't have | 19:14 |
| Luke-Jr | javispedro: no, real the GPL-2 ☺ | 19:14 |
| Luke-Jr | once you violate it, you no longer can just start complying | 19:14 |
| javispedro | gpl2. it would be a 100 lines kmod just mapping the card's mapped memory space into user space. | 19:14 |
| SpeedEvil | Is the DSP actually used? | 19:14 |
| soap | first statement is correct, ShadowJK, second one is wrong. | 19:14 |
| Luke-Jr | in the case of Linux, violation means you can never distribute kernel code again period | 19:15 |
| pH5 | Stskeeps: thanks! | 19:15 |
| soap | even excess voltage causes damage through thermal effects. | 19:15 |
| GAN8001 | Luke-Jr, reread the license. | 19:15 |
| Luke-Jr | javispedro: GPL-2 can't be resolved merely by starting to comply | 19:15 |
| ShadowJK | "When charging above 4.30V, the cell causes plating of metallic lithium on the anode; the cathode material becomes an oxidizing agent, loses stability and releases oxygen." | 19:15 |
| SpeedEvil | soap: No - it causes damage due to various non-thermal effects that manifest eventually as thermal. | 19:15 |
| javispedro | it can. thousands of companies have done it. | 19:15 |
| Luke-Jr | GAN8001: re-instatement is a GPL-3 term | 19:15 |
| Luke-Jr | javispedro: not legally. | 19:15 |
| javispedro | out of courts agreement if you want. | 19:16 |
| Luke-Jr | javispedro: the copyright holder would need to reinstate the license to you | 19:16 |
| Luke-Jr | Linux doesn't have a single copyright holder to do it | 19:16 |
| * Stskeeps ducttapes Luke-Jr to a cliff. | 19:16 | |
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| Macer | [Total] 3741.0KB/s, 12690 MB queued, ETA: 00:57:53 | 19:17 |
| * Luke-Jr plays freeciv | 19:17 | |
| soap | ShadowJK, what charging circuit is this which allows you to volt that high? | 19:17 |
| Macer | well. that explains a lot | 19:17 |
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| * Macer discontinues his artigo for use | 19:18 | |
| Macer | heh | 19:18 |
| Macer | i think i am going to take teh artigo and try to make a cricket hotspot out of it | 19:18 |
| ShadowJK | soap, one that overchargers or trickle charges after end of charge? :) | 19:18 |
| Macer | with a cricket mdoem and a usb wifi that supports ap mode | 19:18 |
| * javispedro kills bme then throws the n810 out of the window, expecting to explode. | 19:20 | |
| javispedro | it didn't. | 19:20 |
| javispedro | without bme active, what's going to happen if I plug the charger? | 19:21 |
| Macer | Memory: 8191M phys mem, 343M free mem, 4095M total swap, 4095M free swap | 19:21 |
| Macer | i just noticed my actual RAM is more than its swap | 19:21 |
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| soap | sorry - bbl - | 19:22 |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, nothing, as far as I'm aware. | 19:23 |
| ShadowJK | javispedro, I tried it, and nothing happened | 19:23 |
| ShadowJK | it didn't charge | 19:23 |
| javispedro | aha. | 19:23 |
| ShadowJK | but more over, unless you've enabled RD flags and disabled some things, killing bme causes instant reboot :) | 19:23 |
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| javispedro | or are running OtherOS ;) | 19:23 |
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| javispedro | "No deadlines and not even a commitment, but the optimist in me thinks that we could have some drivers available during the Summer..." ah, well.... | 19:28 |
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| RST38h | Summer ended. | 19:31 |
| RST38h | Or almost ended | 19:31 |
| javispedro | yeah, time to start spamming that thread. | 19:32 |
| angasule | hmm, is the DSP supported or not with free software? :? | 19:32 |
| angasule | RST38h: lies! it's just beginning :P | 19:32 |
| RST38h | BTW, Quim said Maemo5 is not using oono, although some of the code used in Maemo5 will go into oFono | 19:34 |
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| angasule | my project would very much benefit from using the DSP:? | 19:36 |
| GAN8001 | RST38h, yeah, that was my worry. | 19:36 |
| GAN8001 | I think oFono is just too new to be shipping already. | 19:36 |
| javispedro | angasule, ask lardman, but he's afk now. | 19:36 |
| angasule | thanks | 19:36 |
| javispedro | angasule, what's your project btw? | 19:36 |
| angasule | anyway, I should write a design doc or two | 19:36 |
| SpeedEvil | DSP would be very interesting for low power MP3 forex. Or video. | 19:36 |
| javispedro | the N8x0 already uses dsp for mp3. | 19:37 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, did you ask cliff if he minded being joined to Luke-Jr | 19:37 |
| lcuk | im sure hes very annoyed | 19:37 |
| angasule | it's a VoIP client that uses OpenAL with HRTF | 19:37 |
| angasule | HRTF == 3D with just headphones | 19:37 |
| RST38h | GAN: State of development wise, it is about as new as whatever they could have made for Maemo5 :) | 19:37 |
| RST38h | Ah, btw: "There will be a good amount of games including some quite stunning games with hardware-accelerared graphics available, but, since we have no DRM yet, we dont run ngage on Maemo 5." (C)Peter@Marketing | 19:38 |
| javispedro | "Full Java support for Maemo not only a subset like is for Symbian." lol. | 19:38 |
| lcuk | RST38h, link | 19:38 |
| javispedro | those n900 hype makes are going to be deceived. | 19:38 |
| RST38h | lcuk: http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/08/27/finding-maemo-the-new-nokia-n900/ | 19:38 |
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| derf | If it wasn't deceptive, it wouldn't be hype. | 19:39 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Like anybody needs more than MIDP... | 19:39 |
| javispedro | which is not even there. | 19:39 |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, DSP on N900 is for video. | 19:39 |
| GAN8001 | Audio is ARM-side | 19:40 |
| derf | RST38h: Yeah, floating point is for suckers. | 19:40 |
| * lcuk cant wait to see how well liqbase will run | 19:40 | |
| javispedro | nice turn of events then. 770 = DSP for video & audio, N8x0= DSP for audio, N900 = DSP for video. | 19:40 |
| RST38h | "The dial-pad and contacts book work in portrait mode. The rest in landscape." | 19:40 |
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| RST38h | derf: true | 19:40 |
| lcuk | GAN800, no dsp audio codecs at all? | 19:40 |
| GAN8001 | lcuk, well, they exist, not sure what Nokia ships in the box. | 19:41 |
| derf | Of course, I'm a sucker. | 19:41 |
| lcuk | derf pah - i was trying something and i was using shifted ints | 19:41 |
| RST38h | derf: If you have to use floating point, Java is the last language I would consider =) | 19:41 |
| lcuk | and i couldnt get the int64 (32*32) working | 19:41 |
| RST38h | lcuk: that is fixed point | 19:41 |
| * lcuk just remembers they have a fudge factor | 19:41 | |
| angasule | how powerful is the DSP in the N900? | 19:42 |
| SpeedEvil | GAN800: is there a gcc/... for the DSP? | 19:42 |
| RST38h | Peter also addressed that 18MB / space left in Eldar's pictures | 19:42 |
| lcuk | now maybe it was my compiler options or something | 19:42 |
| SpeedEvil | angasule: can apparantly do video to the framebuffer | 19:42 |
| javispedro | " qole noted that Maemo 5 is "swishier" and very next-generation, with lots of transparency, 3D effects, swishing and swooping windows, etc." relol. | 19:42 |
| RST38h | He says Eldar has got a really old firmware and the new one is partitioned differently | 19:42 |
| lcuk | but i had same issues when i tried to use 64bit ints to do faster blitting | 19:42 |
| derf | lcuk: I wrote an entire QR decoder with full correction for 3D projective distortion without using floating point. | 19:42 |
| javispedro | that in gsmarena.com comments. | 19:42 |
| lcuk | derf, and i know all about how wonderful it is | 19:42 |
| RST38h | lcuk: ARM does not support 64bit ints natively | 19:42 |
| RST38h | lcuk: So do not bother | 19:42 |
| lcuk | i used to make extensive use of it in my amiga days | 19:42 |
| angasule | javispedro: swishier is good :P | 19:43 |
| lcuk | no RST38h but gcc supports "long long" | 19:43 |
| javispedro | ok, this made my day. "16. Linux Maemo has many Virtual Machines (VM) which can run from Windows to different other systems." | 19:43 |
| lcuk | so i was using that | 19:43 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Better learn ldmia/stmia :) | 19:43 |
| lcuk | i tried afaik | 19:43 |
| lcuk | it just wouldnt run when compiled | 19:43 |
| angasule | javispedro: cool! windows vista on the n900 :P | 19:43 |
| derf | lcuk: I had no problem getting 32x32->64 bit multiplies working with gcc. | 19:43 |
| GAN8001 | angasule, very powerful. | 19:43 |
| GAN8001 | D1 H.264 powerful. | 19:43 |
| lcuk | derf, pass then | 19:43 |
| angasule | GAN8001: excellent :D | 19:43 |
| lcuk | was just annoying | 19:43 |
| lcuk | infact | 19:43 |
| lcuk | i had it working | 19:43 |
| angasule | now I just need to implement HRTF, should be a piece of cake | 19:43 |
| lcuk | when i used the fp beforehand | 19:43 |
| lcuk | function was odd | 19:44 |
| RST38h | lcuk: GCC may support whatever it wants, once it gets to assembly level your 64bit code will look awful | 19:44 |
| lcuk | it worked when i debugged output | 19:44 |
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| derf | lcuk: gcc 3.x? | 19:44 |
| RST38h | lcuk: It looks kinda awful even on x86 which kinda supports 64bit ints now | 19:44 |
| lcuk | but when i removed the debug lines and the original fp lines above | 19:44 |
| lcuk | it died | 19:44 |
| angasule | btw, what does 'maemo' mean? | 19:44 |
| GAN8001 | angasule, pwgen. | 19:44 |
| javispedro | gcc will probably just call libgcc functions for 64 bit arithmetic. | 19:44 |
| GAN8001 | It doesn't mean anything. | 19:44 |
| GAN8001 | It's a made up word. | 19:44 |
| lcuk | RST38h, there were 2 funcs | 19:44 |
| angasule | ah, ok | 19:44 |
| lcuk | int32x32 | 19:44 |
| lcuk | and div32x32 | 19:44 |
| angasule | my finnish isn't all that good :) | 19:44 |
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| GAN8001 | http://stezz.blogspot.com/2008/10/where-maemo-is-coming-from.html | 19:45 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Exactly | 19:45 |
| lcuk | derf 3.x i think | 19:45 |
| RST38h | lcuk: If it calls functins every time you need to do anything on 64bit ints, that is terrible | 19:45 |
| lcuk | inline | 19:45 |
| lcuk | doesnt matter | 19:45 |
| lcuk | i dropped the branch | 19:45 |
| lcuk | was for optimized soft 3d on liqbase surfaces | 19:46 |
| lcuk | but it wasnt very optimized at that point | 19:46 |
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| * lcuk managed to get a rotating cube at nice speed :) | 19:47 | |
| lcuk | the code was just for phong shading anyway, i really needed texturemapping | 19:47 |
| javispedro | another perl from the hype generator bots: "" | 19:47 |
| javispedro | - The N900 will have an s60 emulator so it will be somewhat backwards compatible with s60 apps" | 19:47 |
| kpel | and that's a feature? | 19:48 |
| lcuk | s60 emulation. nice | 19:48 |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, ohnoes! It's actually just S60 with that new UI!!! | 19:48 |
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| javispedro | new UI? ;) | 19:49 |
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| derf | RST38h: Multiplies and adds don't require a function call, but apparently right-shifts do. | 19:49 |
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| lcuk | mm | 19:49 |
| lcuk | in thumb or full ?? | 19:49 |
| derf | Full. | 19:50 |
| lcuk | sounds odd | 19:50 |
| derf | I never really bothered with thumb mode. | 19:50 |
| lcuk | kinda like the engineer walked around going "im sure theres something i need to implement" | 19:50 |
| lcuk | and a few days after fabbing starts he goes "oh shit!!!!" | 19:50 |
| lcuk | doesnt gcc compile to thumb still | 19:51 |
| javispedro | not by default. | 19:51 |
| lcuk | or can it be made to make full use of the cpu | 19:51 |
| derf | lcuk: The ARM ISA is generally very well designed. | 19:51 |
| lcuk | derf, what are you hacking on now btw | 19:51 |
| derf | Makes Intel's look embarassing. | 19:51 |
| lcuk | oh yeah dont doubt it | 19:51 |
| derf | lcuk: Theora. | 19:51 |
| lcuk | i love the feeling of this cpu once it gets goin | 19:51 |
| lcuk | top banana! | 19:51 |
| lcuk | hand crafted asm is a fine art :) | 19:52 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: Escher is also fine art. | 19:53 |
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| GAN8001 | lardman|afk, ping? | 19:53 |
| RST38h | javis: ORLY? Who is saying that about s60 emulator | 19:53 |
| javispedro | idiots who also talk about "relative screens". lmao. | 19:53 |
| lcuk | escher is a paper based hack | 19:53 |
| lcuk | if escher had been a coder, he would be working in yuv too ;) | 19:54 |
| RST38h | derf: thumb mode matters when you have slow memory | 19:54 |
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| SpeedEvil | RST38h: or have a small cache | 19:54 |
| RST38h | javis: let us perpetrate more of this stuff | 19:54 |
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| lcuk | whats the asm mode thats not thumb called | 19:54 |
| RST38h | SpeedEvil: which accounts for just about 99% ARMs | 19:54 |
| * lcuk always knows it as full | 19:54 | |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 19:55 |
| RST38h | lcuk: arm32 | 19:55 |
| derf | RST38h: I don't doubt it... but in my tests it generated bigger code and was slower. | 19:55 |
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| lcuk | ok, whats the best options for gcc to make decent use of the arm32 opcode mode (thanks rst) | 19:55 |
| lcuk | i currently only use -O3 | 19:55 |
| lcuk | and let the compiler suss out the chipset etc | 19:55 |
| javispedro | "Maemo 5 is a revolutionary _device_ ..... " [sigh] | 19:55 |
| lcuk | it is revolutionary | 19:55 |
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| derf | -mcpu=arm1136j-s -mtune=arm1136j-s | 19:56 |
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| javispedro | lcuk, -O3 generated slower code here, so be careful. | 19:56 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Download EMULib and check out EMULib/Rules.Maemo | 19:56 |
| derf | I tend to use -Os -fstrength-reduce -fforce-addr | 19:56 |
| javispedro | In fact, I'm a big fan of -Os. | 19:56 |
| RST38h | lcuk: it is all there | 19:56 |
| lcuk | its always treated me kindly here | 19:56 |
| derf | But I have no experimented a great deal. | 19:56 |
| derf | *not | 19:56 |
| lcuk | i only went up the -O numbers | 19:56 |
| lcuk | i didnt want to mess with specific chiptypes | 19:57 |
| lcuk | thanks tho | 19:57 |
| derf | -fstrength-reduce is very important with -Os. | 19:57 |
| lcuk | whats Os | 19:57 |
| derf | Optimize for code size. | 19:57 |
| lcuk | dont care for size really | 19:57 |
| lcuk | modules are reasonable small | 19:57 |
| javispedro | yeah, but tends to generate better code some times. | 19:57 |
| lcuk | and even with loop rolling its clean enough | 19:57 |
| derf | It also tends not to kill your instruction cache. | 19:57 |
| lcuk | derf, which cpu is that tuning thing for | 19:57 |
| lcuk | -mcpu=arm1136j-s -mtune=arm1136j-s | 19:57 |
| * javispedro looks up fstrengh-reduce | 19:58 | |
| derf | The N8x0. | 19:58 |
| lcuk | i used to have to work in 256bytes of cache on the 680ec20 | 19:58 |
| derf | javispedro: It allows it to do things like turn divisions into shifts. | 19:58 |
| lcuk | i loved getting entire routines in there | 19:58 |
| javispedro | derf, wha? the documentation is horrible then "Perform the optimizations of loop strength reduction and elimination of iteration variables. ". | 19:58 |
| derf | With -Os by itself, it won't do that, even if it takes more instructions to generate the call to the idiv routine. | 19:58 |
| lcuk | it was a bitch if it ended at 258 and drastically different perf | 19:58 |
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| lcuk | derf, will i have to ask same questions again when the n900 comes out | 19:59 |
| lcuk | or will same optimization flags work? | 19:59 |
| javispedro | ideally you'll ask again :) | 19:59 |
| derf | Cortex A8 will require different cpu and tune flags. | 19:59 |
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| derf | Assuming gcc supports them. I haven't looked. | 19:59 |
| angasule | yay I miss x << 8 + x << 6 | 20:00 |
| lcuk | ok, ill ask again after i sharpen elbows and get to the front of the queue | 20:00 |
| javispedro | lcuk, tho it has been said the fremantle sdk gcc has better defaults | 20:00 |
| javispedro | (for a start, it uses vfp) | 20:00 |
| lcuk | so just leaving -O3 might be better overall | 20:00 |
| lcuk | i hope to get some testing done soon through autobuilder | 20:00 |
| GAN8001 | Anybody want to take some public domain images of the N900 so I can stick them on Wikipedia? | 20:00 |
| lcuk | i gather that should follow all settings just like my local builds | 20:00 |
| javispedro | derf, gcc enables -fstrength-reduce by default at -Os | 20:01 |
| lcuk | GAN8001 i dont think any photos can be taken | 20:01 |
| lcuk | ill just leave -O3 :) | 20:01 |
| derf | javispedro: I guess it depends on your version, then. | 20:01 |
| GAN8001 | lcuk, depends on who's doing the taking | 20:01 |
| lcuk | yeah good point | 20:01 |
| javispedro | derf, diablo sdk, 2005q3-2 | 20:01 |
| kulve | gcc supports armv7 options quite well. But it won't do good neon code still | 20:01 |
| angasule | neon == the DSP on the Cortex A8, right? | 20:02 |
| kulve | no | 20:02 |
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| kulve | neon is new instruction set on armv7, something similar to vfp | 20:02 |
| javispedro | do we get all that int16x4 builtin types fun? | 20:02 |
| angasule | hmm, ok | 20:03 |
| kulve | for armv6 you can build with -mfpu=vfp and for armv7 with neon, you can build with -mfpu=neon | 20:03 |
| lcuk | what is neon? | 20:04 |
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| lcuk | is that the chip in the n900 | 20:04 |
| kulve | but, as said, gcc doesn't really produce efficient neon instructions. Hand written neon is very very fast | 20:04 |
| kulve | neon is an instruction set found on most armv7 cores (which is what omap3 is) | 20:04 |
| * lcuk should look to optimize and replace some of his blitter routines with asm | 20:04 | |
| lcuk | then i might actually have a fast system | 20:04 |
| * GAN8001 shudders at reviewing the recent wikipedia edits. | 20:04 | |
| kulve | lcuk: google for neon :) | 20:04 |
| kirma | NEON is specific implementation of SIMD instruction set... | 20:04 |
| lcuk | thanks kirma | 20:05 |
| lcuk | kulve, trying to get code together | 20:05 |
| * angasule needs to read more about the Cortex A8 | 20:05 | |
| javispedro | vfp is still there on armv7, btw? | 20:05 |
| derf | javispedro: I had severe problems with the gcc 3.x compiler in that generating broken code. | 20:05 |
| kulve | http://www.arm.com/products/multimedia/neon/index.html | 20:05 |
| derf | I'm using cs2007q3-glibc2.5, I believe. | 20:05 |
| kulve | javispedro: it is | 20:05 |
| angasule | grazie, kulve | 20:05 |
| javispedro | derf, don't tell me, I know :P | 20:05 |
| GAN8001 | Man, they've really been over the Maemo articles. . . . | 20:05 |
| derf | Apparently the option is completely gone in gcc 4.3.2. | 20:06 |
| * kirma wonders how NEON and code that could be written as OpenGL ES 2.0 shader programs compare on Cortex-A8 performance-wise | 20:06 | |
| javispedro | GAN8001, grabbing popcorn and browsing to wikipedia... :) | 20:06 |
| lcuk | wow kulve :) i bet liqbase would flllllllllllllllllllllllllly with those optimizations | 20:06 |
| lcuk | it makes me wanting to use the dsp as a copro useless lol | 20:06 |
| derf | Replaced with -fivopts, that does what you described. | 20:06 |
| derf | Not sure where the bit that does what I described went. | 20:06 |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, the wikipedia people are always helpful because they help make the articles conform to proper formatting and structure. | 20:06 |
| GAN8001 | Unfortunately they usually don't know shit about Maemo. | 20:06 |
| GAN8001 | So I have to spend a bunch of time fixing their factual errors. | 20:06 |
| lcuk | wait | 20:07 |
| lcuk | so i cant edit wikipedia nomore | 20:07 |
| * lcuk is a hardcore wikitroll | 20:07 | |
| kirma | javispedro: just looking at wikipedia... it says Cortex-A8 has VFP too | 20:07 |
| javispedro | kirma, I know, but the pandora guys seemed to doubt it at first | 20:07 |
| javispedro | because Neon does not do double arithemtic afaik. | 20:08 |
| javispedro | *double fp arithmetic. | 20:08 |
| RST38h | Ok, here go GCC Maemo flags: -mfpu=vfp -mfloat-abi=softfp -O3 | 20:08 |
| RST38h | The rest has been already set up for you | 20:08 |
| kulve | lcuk: http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.dht0002a/index.html | 20:08 |
| javispedro | not sure RST38h, without mtune it does not use uxtb / uxth instructions. | 20:08 |
| RST38h | javis: What should mtune flags be? | 20:09 |
| javispedro | arm11blablabla | 20:09 |
| angasule | great, with the 60% and 21% taxes the N900 should be 968 euro | 20:09 |
| RST38h | (for OMAP2 that is) | 20:09 |
| javispedro | posted above. | 20:09 |
| lcuk | arghhhh kulve that is so tempting but ive got a deadline | 20:09 |
| *** zz_jhford is now known as jhford | 20:09 | |
| * lcuk vanishes | 20:09 | |
| javispedro | -mcpu=arm1136j-s -mtune=arm1136j-s | 20:09 |
| RST38h | Aha, thanks | 20:09 |
| RST38h | Will try 'em | 20:10 |
| javispedro | also, I suggest verifying the -O3 is best assumption. | 20:10 |
| javispedro | when I was playing the crazy opts for the mode7 renderer I found it was not true. | 20:10 |
| javispedro | -O2 was nearly 5fps faster. (probably, unrolling the loop caused it not to fit in cache or something like that). | 20:11 |
| derf | -O3 is highly application-dependent. | 20:11 |
| lcuk | yes | 20:11 |
| RST38h | ? | 20:12 |
| RST38h | Ah you mean the loop unrolling | 20:12 |
| lcuk | javispedro, i found O3 after extensive testing | 20:12 |
| lcuk | and ive not needed to look back since | 20:12 |
| RST38h | 20:12 | |
| lcuk | liqbase spends most of its time in the functions i was checking | 20:12 |
| lcuk | they could really do with being asmified | 20:12 |
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| lcuk | but i havent got time | 20:12 |
| RST38h | 20:12 | |
| RST38h | 20:12 | |
| lcuk | out of ink again? | 20:13 |
| javispedro | the first program I ported, openttd, was faster with -Os, so I too decided to "just use -Os and forget about the rest". | 20:13 |
| javispedro | but then the fact that drnoksnes was faster with -O2 surprised me. | 20:13 |
| lcuk | libliqbase rendering is identical functions (copied over) from liqbase | 20:13 |
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| lcuk | i dont care to optimize the periphery, and couldnt give 2 rats eyes whether one non critical function was a bit slower | 20:14 |
| lcuk | the main blitter and image renderer goes quick | 20:14 |
| kulve | -Os optimizes for size. Some apps gets faster because they are smaller. Those are application dependant things, as said. Some applications get more benefit from some options, others from something else | 20:14 |
| lcuk | rkirti, \o hiya :D | 20:14 |
| rkirti | 'lo lcuk | 20:14 |
| javispedro | kulve, yeah, it all comes to say that you have to play the flags for every program. | 20:15 |
| lcuk | (o)--(o) | 20:15 |
| lcuk | /.______.\ ribbit! | 20:15 |
| lcuk | \________/ | 20:15 |
| lcuk | ./ \. | 20:15 |
| lcuk | ( . , ) | 20:15 |
| lcuk | \ \_\\//_/ / | 20:15 |
| javispedro | even the vfp flags may slow down a program. | 20:15 |
| lcuk | ~~ ~~ ~~ | 20:15 |
| javispedro | AAAAAAAAAAAAAA | 20:15 |
| javispedro | poor vfp frog. | 20:15 |
| RST38h | 20:16 | |
| javispedro | lcuk, I give you permission to try again, i promise to be quiet this time :D | 20:16 |
| rkirti | 20:16 | |
| RST38h | argh, bad connection | 20:16 |
| lcuk | i will do another tomorrow lol | 20:16 |
| GAN8001 | Bleh, http://en.wikipedia.org/Internet_Tablet is no longer appropriate | 20:16 |
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| RST38h | Why? The article is about the name "internet tablet", which still exists | 20:17 |
| RST38h | Maybe some note that for N900 the name has been abandoned is in order... | 20:17 |
| javispedro | nokia IPs editing maemo in wikipedia? | 20:17 |
| GAN8001 | RST38h, right, people keep trying to put the N900 on the Internet Tablet page and linking to it from elsewhere. | 20:18 |
| GAN8001 | I need a new summary page for Maemo devices. | 20:18 |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, look out for 192. | 20:18 |
| GAN8001 | But, no, not at the moment. | 20:18 |
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| javispedro | I saw the one about matchbox | 20:19 |
| javispedro | very marketing-like | 20:19 |
| javispedro | trying to hide the fact it's still a single-window pda after all. | 20:19 |
| GAN8001 | I usually keep an eye on them | 20:20 |
| GAN8001 | and they're usually positive and useful. | 20:20 |
| RST38h | GAN: I think it is ok to have N900 there, AS LONG as there is an explanation of the name change | 20:20 |
| RST38h | This will also prevent people from putting it back there :) | 20:20 |
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| javispedro | RST38h, it's on the talk page. | 20:21 |
| lcuk | talk page is for wiki admins usually | 20:21 |
| lcuk | most regular users never end up there | 20:22 |
| lcuk | unless they really care | 20:22 |
| javispedro | those regular users should be stabbed to death if they try to edit wikipedia then | 20:22 |
| GAN8001 | Is there an overview page for all S60 devices? | 20:22 |
| javispedro | GAN8001: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S60_(software_platform) | 20:23 |
| javispedro | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Nokia_phones :S | 20:23 |
| SpeedEvil | I added a note on the table saying it's not marketed as an internet tablet. I don't think it's unreasonable to put it in there. | 20:24 |
| javispedro | so, theoretically, maemo device list should go into http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo_(software_platform) | 20:24 |
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| GAN8001 | javispedro, makes that page awfully long. | 20:27 |
| GAN8001 | Maybe we can have Maemo_Devices and Maemo_(devices) instead. :D | 20:27 |
| javispedro | or Maemo (awfully long of device list | 20:27 |
| crashanddie | GAN8001: the reason that name is not appropriate is because it doesn't have "wiki" in it :P | 20:28 |
| GAN8001 | We should just have one article | 20:28 |
| GAN8001 | Maemo | 20:28 |
| javispedro | btw, I don't agree with the change you made on the maemo.nokia.com/n900/ link | 20:28 |
| javispedro | (you say that's "Maemo official page" | 20:28 |
| GAN8001 | Which contains a stream-of-conscious writing from crashanddie. | 20:28 |
| javispedro | but I'd say the Maemo official page is maemo.nokia.com/) | 20:28 |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, did I make that change? | 20:28 |
| javispedro | think so. | 20:29 |
| * GAN8001 was clearly drunk and/or high on life at the time. | 20:29 | |
| crashanddie | GAN8001: conscious writing? You really don't want that, considering the email I just sent to my boss | 20:29 |
| GAN8001 | consciousness | 20:29 |
| javispedro | GAN8001, yes, you did | 20:29 |
| GAN8001 | crashanddie, competence is still king, but I'm afraid I've exhausted all of mine. | 20:29 |
| *** zz_jhford is now known as jhford | 20:30 | |
| GAN8001 | javispedro, how about now? | 20:30 |
| javispedro | ok, I should've made the change, but wanted to ask you :) | 20:30 |
| Macer | wow i need to shave | 20:30 |
| crashanddie | GAN8001: don't tell me you're not "abel" to write long serenades about Maemo? | 20:30 |
| * crashanddie hides | 20:31 | |
| * Macer looks like the full moon just finished | 20:31 | |
| GAN8001 | crashanddie, willing and "abel", but I'm all run dry on competence. :( | 20:31 |
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| crashanddie | GAN8001: I don't believe that for a secoind | 20:33 |
| crashanddie | I'd even say more, not for a second! | 20:33 |
| * javispedro goes back to reading gsmarena comments... | 20:33 | |
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| MaceN8x0 | hm | 20:34 |
| MaceN8x0 | need to connect my su8w | 20:34 |
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| RST38h | javis: more saliva? | 20:34 |
| MaceN8x0 | RST38h, when is the n900 release date? | 20:34 |
| javispedro | RST38h, more laughs :D | 20:35 |
| javispedro | like iphone fans blindly telling "a 4'' phone is too big" (oh man, I would like it to be the N8x0 size). | 20:35 |
| javispedro | (ignoring the fact the n900 is not 4'') | 20:35 |
| MaceN8x0 | i think an n810 is a good phone size | 20:36 |
| MaceN8x0 | considering how thin it is | 20:36 |
| MaceN8x0 | fits in a pocket fairly easily | 20:36 |
| javispedro | MaceN8x0, I agree, It's perfectly sized for my pocket. | 20:36 |
| MaceN8x0 | will the n900 have a stylus? | 20:36 |
| aol_ | I think iphone is too big and slippery :) | 20:36 |
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| RST38h | MaceN8x0: My crystal balls say October 1 | 20:38 |
| aol_ | many times almost dropping my dev iPhone at work ... I do that with other phones, maybe less frequently, but when they drop they dont immediately shatter their screens :) | 20:38 |
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| RST38h | MaceN8x0: Not sure about geography though | 20:38 |
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| RST38h | aol: that is nice glass screen for you | 20:38 |
| RST38h | it is scratch resistant though, way more than can be said about n8x0 | 20:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 20:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | well, dont drop it ;) | 20:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | RST38h, really? | 20:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | will tmob have them? | 20:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | i dont think too many ppl here in chicago are hip to an n900 | 20:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | i might be able to get a couple heh | 20:41 |
| RST38h | MaceN8x0: The october date fell out of some nokian, afaik | 20:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | nokian? :) | 20:42 |
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| RST38h | MaceN8x0: The TMobile info also fell out of some nokian + it is confirmed by the band info | 20:42 |
| MaceN8x0 | awesome | 20:42 |
| MaceN8x0 | damnit... gotta go | 20:42 |
| javispedro | "and how many version of maemo are out ?? Android have 3 version, so what about maemo" and someone says "this is the 4". | 20:43 |
| javispedro | a... the outside world. | 20:43 |
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| javispedro | I love how N8x0 lovers appear all around now. When I was reviewing for my decision to buy the N810 or not, they were all concentrated in tmo, and even then. | 20:45 |
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| javispedro | *!tmo, but itt. | 20:45 |
| dreamer_ | MaceN8x0: i'm in chicago, and i'll be getting a n900 asap | 20:47 |
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| RST38h | javis: btw, there is thread on tmo started by Quim on changing the status and thematics of maemo.org | 20:47 |
| RST38h | javis: given that Maemo has now got official user and developer sites | 20:48 |
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| crashanddie | javispedro: ITT is a bunch of trolls :P | 20:49 |
| RST38h | who troll each other I assume? | 20:50 |
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| javispedro | RST38h, i'd prefer tmo to be the hacker site again (when I arrived here it was in the process of merging with maemo.org) | 20:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | i try to stray from forums | 20:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | irc > forums | 20:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | at least on irc the gustapo can kick out the weak | 20:52 |
| RST38h | javis: it is always possible to sway Developers subforum toward hackerdom, just create enough threads and be active there | 20:53 |
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| lcuk | javispedro, :) hackers still exist | 20:53 |
| RST38h | javis: The trolls generally prefer General | 20:53 |
| MaceN8x0 | im going to take down my artigo | 20:53 |
| MaceN8x0 | it has been running solid for like 120 days | 20:54 |
| MaceN8x0 | going to stash it in the co ceiling | 20:54 |
| slonopotamus | is maemo 5 available, btw? | 20:55 |
| javispedro | yes, i have it here under my pillow. | 20:56 |
| eichi_ | kann i reinstall bootmenu with usbflash at startup without changing somthing on the internal flash or internal sd? (my bootmenu died) | 20:56 |
| javispedro | not really I think, the SDK is still the usual beta. | 20:56 |
| RST38h | So, the Maemo5 announceent has not been followed by another SDK release? | 20:58 |
| lardman|afk | you'll probably find it won't be finalised until they start shipping | 20:58 |
| RST38h | yea... | 20:58 |
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| javispedro | very convenient. | 20:59 |
| javispedro | I hope there's another SDL release inbetween. | 20:59 |
| javispedro | s/SDL/SDK/ | 20:59 |
| infobot | javispedro meant: I hope there's another SDK release inbetween. | 20:59 |
| lardman|afk | well I imagine they'll keep fixing bugs up till that time, so no point in a release then another | 20:59 |
| javispedro | just to see if they fixed the happy colors in xephyr. | 20:59 |
| pupnik | sdl with hw scaling too | 21:00 |
| RST38h | and no official switch to sb2 yet? | 21:00 |
| slonopotamus | happy colors? | 21:00 |
| javispedro | RST38h, planned for harmattan afaik | 21:00 |
| javispedro | slonopotamus, the color channel swap bug in fremantle sdk. | 21:00 |
| slonopotamus | i c | 21:00 |
| RST38h | ehehehe | 21:01 |
| * javispedro can see already the video instructing iphone developers to "ignore" the colors when porting their apps to maemo5. | 21:01 | |
| slonopotamus | javispedro, can't you just patch xephyr? | 21:02 |
| javispedro | as i said previously I don't know the first thing about the "eye candy" system | 21:03 |
| javispedro | the bug may be either in cairo, clutter or xephyr | 21:03 |
| slonopotamus | so, try to output colors without using those three :) first directly to xephyr, then via cairo | 21:04 |
| javispedro | clutter+cairo go by hand. | 21:05 |
| javispedro | outputting to xephyr directly results in good colors. | 21:05 |
| javispedro | but I cannot discard xephyr since it may be a GL bug. | 21:05 |
| VDVsx | X-Fade, ping | 21:05 |
| javispedro | it runs Maemo on an ARM8 Processor there shouldnt be any lag [sigh] | 21:06 |
| slonopotamus | javispedro, hmm... so they make all gtk to work via clutter? | 21:07 |
| slonopotamus | s/make/made/ | 21:07 |
| infobot | slonopotamus meant: javispedro, hmm... so they made all gtk to work via clutter? | 21:07 |
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| javispedro | not all gtk, they afaik use composite to grab gtk windows as pixmaps, then use clutter+cairo to draw the resulting mess (or art ;) ) | 21:08 |
| lcuk | isnt it more technical to say they made x11 work with it? | 21:08 |
| javispedro | yes, much like compiz only using clutter instead of ogl directly. | 21:08 |
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| X-Fade | VDVsx: pong | 21:09 |
| slonopotamus | lcuk, i don't know on what level clutter works | 21:09 |
| lcuk | nor do i | 21:09 |
| * lcuk waves hands | 21:09 | |
| VDVsx | X-Fade, got this nice msg. should upload again ? : https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/extras-cauldron-builds/2009-August/009017.html | 21:09 |
| javispedro | clutter is just what I'd call a scene library. it just renders things and does animations. | 21:10 |
| X-Fade | VDVsx: Hmm let me check, haven't seen that before. | 21:10 |
| javispedro | I don't which process is doing the compositing... | 21:11 |
| VDVsx | X-Fade, oki | 21:11 |
| lcuk | VDVsx, sending glut through? | 21:11 |
| lcuk | i was just thinking clutter is like glut lol | 21:11 |
| lcuk | since both seem to do the window and event management aspects of gl | 21:11 |
| VDVsx | lcuk, it's a dep for some games ;) | 21:12 |
| javispedro | VDVsx, does freeglut work with ogles? | 21:12 |
| javispedro | someone here was asking for ogles GLU before. | 21:12 |
| VDVsx | lcuk, but is similar, you are right | 21:12 |
| VDVsx | javispedro, it builds with libgl, so should be compatible | 21:13 |
| javispedro | hm. | 21:13 |
| javispedro | libgl is GLES? | 21:13 |
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| VDVsx | javispedro, nop, it's normal GL | 21:14 |
| javispedro | libgl.so.1 does not seem to be GLes, it contains "glVertex3d" symbol. | 21:14 |
| javispedro | aps | 21:14 |
| javispedro | then? is libgl present on device? | 21:15 |
| VDVsx | it's in the repos at least | 21:15 |
| javispedro | I think I need more information about how gl will work on device... :S | 21:16 |
| VDVsx | javispedro, if not present, the majority of the linux games won't work without some *big* changes | 21:17 |
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| javispedro | and that was what I initially believed. | 21:18 |
| javispedro | that GL 1 was not provided in device. | 21:18 |
| RST38h | can it be simulated with OGL ES? | 21:20 |
| VDVsx | someone with a device can try if it works, just installing one of the GL games already in the repos :) | 21:21 |
| VDVsx | FB for example | 21:21 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | FB isn't GL... I had it running on an N800 | 21:22 |
| javispedro | RST38h, there are some libraries out there (google says) | 21:22 |
| VDVsx | qwerty12_N810, but it depends on libgl, our discussion :) | 21:22 |
| javispedro | depends on libgl and it worked on N800? | 21:22 |
| VDVsx | supertux also depends on libgl, I think | 21:23 |
| X-Fade | GL is a difficult area as you need completely different libs on the device than on i386. | 21:23 |
| javispedro | /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 is "Mesa GL library" (software renderer!!!!) | 21:23 |
| qwerty12_N810 | javispedro: No, the sdlperl bindings do, but I didn't (well: couldn't) build them with GL for Diablo | 21:23 |
| X-Fade | check libgles-dev | 21:23 |
| javispedro | X-Fade, libgles2-dev | 21:24 |
| javispedro | "Imagination OpenGL-ES2 emulation library+dev" | 21:24 |
| X-Fade | http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_sdk_free_armel/libclutter-0.8-0/0.8.2-0maemo39+0m5/ | 21:24 |
| X-Fade | See how clutter it does. | 21:24 |
| X-Fade | vs | 21:25 |
| X-Fade | http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_sdk_free_i386/libclutter-0.8-0/0.8.2-0maemo39+0m5 | 21:25 |
| javispedro | x86 links with ogl, but armel links with ogles2. | 21:25 |
| javispedro | isn't it? | 21:25 |
| javispedro | but that means ogl is not on device | 21:26 |
| javispedro | . | 21:26 |
| X-Fade | Yeah. | 21:26 |
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| X-Fade | In order to let clutter work on i386, you need to use opengl. | 21:26 |
| VDVsx | ehhehe | 21:26 |
| X-Fade | While there is no opengl on the device, but there is opengles. | 21:26 |
| VDVsx | well, we can always port iPhone games :P | 21:27 |
| X-Fade | Believe me, I have been working on this issue a while ago ;) | 21:27 |
| javispedro | I think the situation is | 21:27 |
| lcuk | VDVsx, you need the framework really | 21:27 |
| javispedro | on fremantle_x86 sdk, we have host accelerated libGL and sw rendered libGLES2 | 21:27 |
| lcuk | they arent even in the same ballpark coding wise | 21:27 |
| javispedro | on device, we have hw accelerated libGLES2. | 21:27 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, so if you want to do hardcore GL, you can only test on the device. | 21:28 |
| javispedro | by hardcore GL you mean sw rendered? | 21:28 |
| lcuk | did the beagle guys come up with anything | 21:28 |
| lcuk | or the pandora bunch | 21:28 |
| lcuk | arent they compatible chipsets | 21:28 |
| javispedro | yes.... | 21:29 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: No, if you want to code direct opengles2 for a game for example. | 21:29 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: You can't test that on your pc. | 21:29 |
| javispedro | X-Fade, a, but there's a Imagination OpenGL-ES2 emulation library+dev in fremantle x86 SDK. | 21:29 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, but how would you know if your hardware is as fast as the device. | 21:29 |
| X-Fade | Or faster/slower. | 21:29 |
| lcuk | javispedro, yes to compatible chiipsets, or yes, they have something | 21:29 |
| javispedro | well, but at least you can code :) | 21:29 |
| lcuk | you can code with a napkin | 21:30 |
| lcuk | (from experience | 21:30 |
| X-Fade | Yes, you can. | 21:30 |
| javispedro | lcuk, yes to they have mostly same chipset. | 21:30 |
| javispedro | lcuk, you can code and also compile & run ;) | 21:30 |
| X-Fade | We have some headers for i386 in extras-devel btw. | 21:30 |
| lcuk | ahhh, so the hardcore gang of gamers over at pandora have nothing to run | 21:30 |
| lcuk | javispedro, dont need to | 21:30 |
| lcuk | it was pseudocode | 21:30 |
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| javispedro | what I'm saying is that if you make a OGLES2 game you'll at least be able to test it in x86 sdk | 21:31 |
| javispedro | which is god to know | 21:31 |
| javispedro | (first iphone sdk releases didn't allow that) | 21:31 |
| lcuk | is gles2 simply not available on any desktop linux | 21:32 |
| X-Fade | Yes, but beware of the opengles2 limitation -> hildon desktop. | 21:32 |
| javispedro | aww, yes. | 21:32 |
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| X-Fade | lcuk: but that is what the emu is for. | 21:32 |
| lcuk | i know the emu for us | 21:32 |
| lcuk | but we cant be the first to need gles2 | 21:33 |
| lcuk | does mac have gles2 emulator for its sdk | 21:33 |
| X-Fade | No, there are a lot of symbian games too at least. | 21:33 |
| lcuk | what about other systems, are there laptops running it direct | 21:33 |
| lcuk | etc | 21:33 |
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| VDVsx | and Pandora is also using OGLES ? | 21:33 |
| lcuk | VDVsx, its the same chip | 21:33 |
| javispedro | VDVsx, yes, they are | 21:33 |
| lcuk | if they want hardware 3d they need to use it | 21:33 |
| lcuk | and i heard rumblings they had done it | 21:34 |
| javispedro | (just reading about the fact they made a ogles hw accelerated sdl ) | 21:34 |
| lcuk | or was that just gettin wolkfenstein running or something | 21:34 |
| lcuk | then there you go | 21:34 |
| lcuk | get the code to that :) | 21:34 |
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| lcuk | open source raiding from competitors ftw | 21:35 |
| javispedro | lcuk, on Mac, recent iphone emulator versions started allowing ogles2 sw emulation | 21:35 |
| lcuk | does it work well? | 21:35 |
| javispedro | dunno, I do not pay the yearly fee ;) | 21:35 |
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| * lcuk has so much code to do but im so tired | 21:36 | |
| lardman|afk | wine | 21:36 |
| florian | hi all | 21:36 |
| * javispedro is in the same situation today. | 21:36 | |
| lcuk | lardman|afk, :) | 21:36 |
| X-Fade | VDVsx: It seems the 2nd run worked out better? | 21:36 |
| javispedro | not doing any job but spending all day here :P | 21:36 |
| lcuk | i might just stop where i am and push another update to the repo and package up the playground :) | 21:36 |
| lcuk | its only an alpha | 21:36 |
| VDVsx | X-Fade, yup :) | 21:37 |
| lcuk | it will take me a couple of hours to test and get it up | 21:37 |
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| javispedro | oooo!!! | 21:38 |
| javispedro | someone writted a jit n64 emu today!!!!!!! | 21:38 |
| javispedro | *wrote | 21:38 |
| javispedro | *arm jit. | 21:38 |
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| lcuk | just today | 21:39 |
| lcuk | as in woke up, thought "mmm i think ill write an emul?" | 21:39 |
| javispedro | well, he published it today :P | 21:39 |
| lcuk | heh | 21:40 |
| slonopotamus | n64? | 21:40 |
| * lcuk wants to run liqbase on n900 | 21:40 | |
| slonopotamus | nintendo? | 21:40 |
| javispedro | slonopotamus, yep. | 21:40 |
| javispedro | sw rasterizer, so dead slow it seems. | 21:40 |
| lcuk | X-Fade, when are they out? | 21:40 |
| rkirti | lcuk: +1 :)( | 21:40 |
| javispedro | porting ogl to ogles2 code is hard seems. | 21:40 |
| rkirti | s/(// | 21:40 |
| infobot | rkirti meant: lcuk: +1 :) | 21:40 |
| lcuk | does that mean im +2 now :D | 21:40 |
| rkirti | ah..for once, infobot is alive on this channel and working | 21:40 |
| lcuk | when is n900 out? | 21:41 |
| * X-Fade waits until people start to create a physics engine running on 3D hardware in the N900 ;) | 21:41 | |
| Pavlov | heh | 21:41 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: I have no idea. | 21:41 |
| lcuk | heh X-Fade | 21:41 |
| lcuk | what if it was a 2d engine with wormholes | 21:41 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: I can honestly say that I don't have one :) | 21:41 |
| lcuk | have what? a wormhole? | 21:41 |
| X-Fade | device. | 21:41 |
| javispedro | I want my n8x0 3d driver already!!!!!!!! :( | 21:42 |
| X-Fade | The wormhole was cool though :D | 21:42 |
| lcuk | ill bug quim then to test :) | 21:42 |
| lcuk | you saw liqflow? | 21:42 |
| javispedro | lcuk, you may need to retest your assumption that xv is fastest in n900.. (even though I'd hope so) | 21:42 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: no? | 21:42 |
| lcuk | why is that | 21:43 |
| javispedro | lcuk, the video shows video is being redirected through the compositor. | 21:43 |
| lcuk | thats a damned shame | 21:43 |
| javispedro | (it could be a photoshop job) | 21:43 |
| lcuk | i saw video in the video | 21:43 |
| lcuk | the one with jussi and quim | 21:43 |
| javispedro | ^^then he goes to the app switcher, and the thumnail is live. | 21:44 |
| lcuk | oooh composited xv | 21:44 |
| javispedro | (or so I read from a hype generator bot, hope he didn't lie to me) | 21:44 |
| lcuk | i read about that a while ago | 21:44 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: Ok animated images ? | 21:44 |
| X-Fade | *or | 21:44 |
| lcuk | show us the link to vid | 21:44 |
| lcuk | so we can see | 21:44 |
| X-Fade | quick thumbnail perhaps? | 21:44 |
| * javispedro searchs. | 21:44 | |
| * Pavlov bets it was an animated image | 21:44 | |
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| javispedro | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhTtsZATwBQ | 21:46 |
| javispedro | 0:30 | 21:46 |
| javispedro | (0:36 is more accurate) | 21:46 |
| lcuk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP5R-5NX1BE | 21:48 |
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| lcuk | actual media player in use | 21:48 |
| lcuk | 3:23 | 21:48 |
| X-Fade | Well, shouldn't be too long before we can test it out ourselves ;) | 21:48 |
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| javispedro | they have done a great job with the marketing videos | 21:49 |
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| javispedro | I can't believe there advertising the tag feature of the photo application :P | 21:50 |
| javispedro | *they're. | 21:50 |
| lcuk | ive removed my tagging for now | 21:50 |
| lcuk | i had to drop the database i was storing everything in | 21:50 |
| qwerty12_N810 | It's a feature, is it not? ;) | 21:50 |
| lcuk | qwerty12_N810, | 21:50 |
| lcuk | just the person | 21:50 |
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| javispedro | I had my fears about the fremantle interface, but seems they've managed to brainwash me with just 3 videos. I'm an easy target seems. | 21:51 |
| RST38h | javis: concentrate on the dialog Ok buttons... | 21:52 |
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| javispedro | too late, I already love them. | 21:53 |
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| RST38h | no way one can love this | 21:54 |
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| javispedro | what you say RST38? room 101. | 21:54 |
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| slonopotamus | how i list all files that belong to package? | 22:15 |
| qwerty12_N810 | dpkg -L <package> | 22:15 |
| slonopotamus | thanks | 22:15 |
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| slonopotamus | oh. osso-multimedia-dsp is a really smart package | 22:16 |
| slonopotamus | especially noting that none if listed files exist at all | 22:17 |
| slonopotamus | s/if/of/ | 22:17 |
| infobot | slonopotamus meant: especially noting that none of listed files exist at all | 22:17 |
| VDVsx | black magic ? :P | 22:19 |
| slonopotamus | any thoughts where's its deb, btw? | 22:19 |
| qwerty12_N810 | password-protected tableteer repo :) | 22:20 |
| slonopotamus | k. more specific? :) | 22:20 |
| qwerty12_N810 | you may be able to do apt-get install --reinstall -d osso-multimedia-dsp and take its deb from /var/cache/apt/archives but it's not a sure-fire way | 22:21 |
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| aol_ | hmmm.. I'm installing the Maemo5 sdk right now... "The installation script adds the specified user to ‘sbox’ user group. For the group membership to be effective in the current terminal session, run the following command:" | 22:40 |
| aol_ | "newgrp sbox" | 22:40 |
| aol_ | unknown group: sbox | 22:41 |
| aol_ | hmm? | 22:41 |
| aol_ | ah sorry, did not notice scratchbox installation failed | 22:46 |
| konttori | Theme maker update released: http://konttoristhoughts.blogspot.com/ | 22:50 |
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| Md | I am unable to find the ppp package in maemo 5, where is it? (I am the Debian ppp maintainer) | 22:59 |
| lcuk | if theres a missing package then the probably means no1 has required/requested/ported it | 23:01 |
| * konttori wants xchat | 23:01 | |
| Md | how can it be missing? it's needed for internet connectivity | 23:02 |
| * konttori requires/requests for it | 23:02 | |
| VDVsx | konttori, btw, did you tried to run supertux in a terminal ? | 23:03 |
| lcuk | Md, i dunno | 23:03 |
| konttori | I did. | 23:03 |
| konttori | hmm... bu I didn't know the command | 23:03 |
| konttori | I can try again if you want | 23:04 |
| VDVsx | konttori, supertux :) | 23:04 |
| slonopotamus | Md, maybe it's just not present in sdk? | 23:04 |
| konttori | well, wasn't in the path for me | 23:04 |
| VDVsx | konttori, please grab the last package ;) | 23:04 |
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| Md | slonopotamus: I have been looking at the repository | 23:05 |
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| slonopotamus | Md, diablo had separate repo for sdk. maybe fremantle too? | 23:06 |
| Md | well, anyway I could not find the package anywhere | 23:06 |
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| slonopotamus | Md, they you don't need to maintain it! :) | 23:06 |
| slonopotamus | s/y/n/ | 23:07 |
| infobot | slonopotamus meant: Md, then you don't need to maintain it! :) | 23:07 |
| konttori | VDVsx: installing | 23:07 |
| VDVsx | Md, for what you need ppp in maemo ? | 23:07 |
| X-Fade | There doesn't seem to be ppp in maemo since 2005. | 23:08 |
| Md | VDVsx: I want to review the changes done by nokia developers and pull in anything interesting | 23:08 |
| VDVsx | Md, doubt they use it | 23:08 |
| Md | X-Fade: hard to believe since you need a PPP stack to connect to the internet using GPRS/UMTS | 23:08 |
| X-Fade | ehm sorry: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/p/ppp/ is there at least. | 23:09 |
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| konttori | VDVsx: still no supertux on command line | 23:10 |
| konttori | and won't start from .desktop file | 23:10 |
| lcuk | start simple | 23:10 |
| lcuk | just get regular tux | 23:11 |
| lcuk | like all the best linux ports have | 23:11 |
| VDVsx | konttori, how can this *all* work under sbox and not in the device o_0 | 23:11 |
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| lcuk | VDVsx, im guessing because you have gl available near scratchbox | 23:11 |
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| lcuk | and thats what your library is talking to | 23:12 |
| VDVsx | lcuk, nop | 23:12 |
| VDVsx | arm is compiled without GL | 23:12 |
| VDVsx | *arm version | 23:12 |
| lcuk | follow the code | 23:12 |
| X-Fade | Md: I checked all fremantle repos. No ppp there. | 23:12 |
| aol_ | If I want to support portrait (or auto-rotate) in Maemo 5, isorted ? | 23:13 |
| aol_ | isorted/is that supported | 23:13 |
| konttori | supported | 23:13 |
| aol_ | auto-rotate too ? | 23:13 |
| konttori | as far as I remember, yes. | 23:14 |
| aol_ | very good, thanks | 23:14 |
| X-Fade | Md: But of course there is no fremantle final release yet, so things can change. | 23:15 |
| VDVsx | konttori, btw, did you used AM or terminal for install the game ? | 23:16 |
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| konttori | VDVsx: first time I used apt-get. Next time I used AM | 23:21 |
| konttori | to me, it looks like the binary was not installed correctly | 23:22 |
| konttori | hmm... looks like I had installed old version | 23:22 |
| konttori | updating now | 23:22 |
| slonopotamus | ~seen bbb770 | 23:22 |
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| infobot | slonopotamus: i haven't seen 'bbb770' | 23:22 |
| VDVsx | konttori, probably, I thought the global paths are the same as in sbox, so try /usr/games/supertux please | 23:23 |
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| slonopotamus | shouldn't it be /usr/games/bin/supertux ? | 23:24 |
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| VDVsx | slonopotamus, my ubuntu installs all games under /usr/games | 23:25 |
| VDVsx | same for debian ;) | 23:26 |
| slonopotamus | shal lhs strike them! :D | 23:26 |
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| mikkov_ | VDVsx: put Exec=/usr/games/supertux to .desktop and it'l work | 23:27 |
| VDVsx | mikkov_, I know that, but thought it will work without it, like in a *normal* linux | 23:28 |
| VDVsx | :P | 23:29 |
| mikkov_ | VDVsx: /usr/games is not in path in debian | 23:29 |
| VDVsx | mikkov_, no ? it is in my ubuntu and sbox at least ;) | 23:30 |
| slonopotamus | unless you're in 'games' group? | 23:30 |
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| konttori | VDVsx: /usr/games/supertux worked | 23:31 |
| mikkov_ | VDVsx: it's not in my sbox path :) | 23:31 |
| konttori | and supertux has nice icon now. | 23:31 |
| konttori | but it still doesn't start from the icon | 23:31 |
| VDVsx | konttori, that's normal ;) | 23:31 |
| konttori | what keys? | 23:32 |
| VDVsx | mikkov_, ok, so I probably *broke* something :P | 23:33 |
| VDVsx | konttori, arrows and space | 23:34 |
| konttori | space wont let me go to first world in the map | 23:34 |
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| VDVsx | konttori, enter | 23:35 |
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| konttori | nope | 23:35 |
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| konttori | ctrl+ enter worked | 23:35 |
| konttori | ok, supertux runs at full speed, but the kb layout is not good for playing | 23:36 |
| VDVsx | do you have sound ? | 23:36 |
| VDVsx | you can change it :) | 23:36 |
| mikkov_ | konttori: you can choose your own keys from options | 23:36 |
| konttori | yeah. sounds are working | 23:37 |
| konttori | would be nice to have good defaults. | 23:37 |
| konttori | and some tutorial to explain them | 23:37 |
| VDVsx | konttori, good thanks, will fix the package later | 23:37 |
| mikkov_ | finding the keys is always part of the game :) | 23:37 |
| konttori | nice to see the game running in dashboard | 23:37 |
| konttori | and music playing from the game. | 23:38 |
| * javispedro listens. | 23:38 | |
| VDVsx | lol | 23:38 |
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| konttori | bug dudes, port tuxracer as well! | 23:38 |
| SpeedEvil | konttori: needs accelerometer :) | 23:38 |
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| konttori | yeah, bind jump to accelerometer | 23:39 |
| VDVsx | konttori, tuxracer uses GL :( | 23:39 |
| zerojayPC | Hah.. would be funny to play it like that while on a bus. ;) | 23:39 |
| zerojayPC | Can't do GL? | 23:39 |
| VDVsx | only OGLES, afaik | 23:40 |
| lcuk | more of an excuse to make your own games instead of porting | 23:40 |
| VDVsx | lcuk, true ;), much more fun | 23:40 |
| jaem | lcuk: how do you pronounce your nick? | 23:43 |
| lcuk | gary | 23:43 |
| jaem | XD | 23:43 |
| b-man16 | xD | 23:43 |
| lcuk | "el sea you kay | 23:43 |
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| konttori | VDVsx: you can use openGL on the device just fine | 23:43 |
| * b-man16 googles lcuk | 23:44 | |
| konttori | I have an opengl game on my device right now. | 23:44 |
| javispedro | huh? | 23:44 |
| b-man16 | lcuk: http://www.lcuk.org.uk/ xD | 23:44 |
| konttori | ah, well, of course, opengles, but 2.0 of es and non es are almost identical | 23:45 |
| lcuk | no | 23:45 |
| javispedro | ahhh.... | 23:45 |
| konttori | you can port a non-es game to es game pretty easily if you know opengl. | 23:45 |
| lcuk | and there we fall down | 23:45 |
| konttori | es just has some idiocies removed so that coders cannot code bad code anymore in es. | 23:45 |
| lcuk | most game devs dont know gl or gles | 23:45 |
| lcuk | they know how to use it | 23:45 |
| lcuk | bullshit | 23:46 |
| lcuk | gimme gles devkit, ill make bad code in it | 23:46 |
| lcuk | they give you a rope just like any other api, it can be abused :P | 23:46 |
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| *** qwerty12_N811 has joined #maemo | 23:47 | |
| javispedro | I want my n8x0 powervr. | 23:47 |
| VDVsx | konttori, great :) | 23:47 |
| jaem | javispedro: me too | 23:47 |
| konttori | sure, you can code bad on it, they have just removed some easy ways to make inefficient code | 23:47 |
| * lcuk nods | 23:47 | |
| lcuk | and simplified the api i think | 23:47 |
| lcuk | but if your app uses those | 23:47 |
| lcuk | features removed | 23:47 |
| lcuk | you are screwed | 23:47 |
| wazd | konttori: hey Urho, any updates on Theme Maker? :) | 23:48 |
| lcuk | there is a dynbamic library for on the fly conversion isnt there | 23:48 |
| lcuk | vincent rings a bell | 23:48 |
| konttori | wazd:http://konttoristhoughts.blogspot.com/ | 23:48 |
| javispedro | lcuk, vincent is a render | 23:49 |
| konttori | wazd: are you happy camper now? | 23:49 |
| lcuk | why is it in my head then | 23:49 |
| * konttori goes to bed | 23:49 | |
| lcuk | just a renderer? | 23:49 |
| lcuk | software? | 23:49 |
| lcuk | gnite konttori | 23:49 |
| wazd | konttori: oh great! | 23:50 |
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| javispedro | nite. | 23:50 |
| lcuk | ahh its gles | 23:50 |
| javispedro | lcuk, yeah, software. on palm t|x was dead slow btw. | 23:50 |
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| lcuk | javispedro, built it for maemo? | 23:53 |
| javispedro | nope | 23:53 |
| javispedro | well, not me. i don't know if someone else did. | 23:53 |
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| VDVsx | mikkov_, btw, did you already finished wormux port ? | 23:56 |
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| VDVsx | I want that game in my future device ;) | 23:56 |
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