IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-06-26

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VDVsxjeremiah, it won't work in the current state in fremantle, the bluez project broke the api between v3.xx and v4.xx, so some minor changes are required00:01
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mikkov_jeremiah: btw, xterm doens't work, but it didn't work in diablo either :)00:04
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johnsqYea bluez 4.xx is chaos pur00:08
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ThatOneGuycan someone build a rtl8187 module for 2.6.16.27 for me? I've been trying to for about a year now without success00:10
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johnsqI have snd_pcm.ko and dependencies loaded any idea what I need more to get alsa working?00:32
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jeremiahVDVsx: Hmm. Bummer. :( I'll have to mention that on the wiki.00:35
jeremiahVDVsx: Thanks for letting me know.00:36
jeremiahmikkov_: Ah - you saw Ed's reply.00:37
VDVsxjeremiah, ok, thanks, I will try to build a new package for fremantle in the weekend00:37
jeremiahVDVsx: That would be great. :)00:38
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DavidePalmMichael Jackson has died!01:40
Firebirdyea.. just heard that on every channel I'm on..01:40
Proteouslol01:40
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DavidePalmsad01:40
Firebirdnow ticketmaster has to refund all of the soldout shows01:40
Proteousheh01:41
Proteousprobable not01:41
Proteousknowing ticketmaster there is probable some fine text about death01:41
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xnt14~seen b-man1602:22
infobotb-man16 <n=b-man@cpe-98-30-195-117.woh.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 10h 28m 54s ago, saying: '~seen xnt14'.02:22
xnt14:P02:22
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RST38hmoo all07:54
RST38hHmm... -1 Michael Jackson08:01
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DavidePalmWhat does the maemo-cplusplus-device-env package provide? does anyone use it?08:13
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RST38hit lets you compile c++ programs on the device08:15
DavidePalmRST38h that's what I'm trying to do but how do you use it?08:15
DavidePalmthrough command line?08:16
RST38hyes08:16
DavidePalmwhat are the commands what's the editor etc...08:16
RST38h"Jonathan Heiliger, Facebook's VP of technical operations, told Om Malik that the latest generations of server processors from Intel and AMD don't deliver the performance gains that 'they're touting in the press."08:16
derfMarketing people exaggerate?! Shocking!08:17
RST38hderf: In this particular case, it looks like they have just got shitty programmers08:17
DavidePalmRST38h where can I find more info about that? what commands to use etc?08:17
Pavlovi for one am shocked08:17
derfI'd believe that, too.08:18
RST38hDavide: Google.08:18
derfBut most programmers are shitty.08:18
DavidePalm:( search for what? been trying for a couple days08:18
RST38hderf: Still, if you are running a company of this size, you should at least be able to hire a few people who can profile code08:18
RST38hDavide: "how to use gcc"08:18
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DavidePalmbut I dont get gcc with that08:19
RST38hYou don't?08:19
DavidePalmno sigh08:19
DavidePalmI've been trying to install GC on my nit for a while... cant find it or install it...08:19
rm_youDavidePalm: it's really close to a standard debian system... install gcc/g++ or compile them for the device in scratchbox if the don't exist (but i know they do)08:20
DavidePalmcan it be done on a regular installation of OS 2008?08:20
rm_youyes08:20
DavidePalmrm_you do you have that running? do you have gcc and g++?08:20
rm_yougcc08:20
rm_yousec08:20
RST38hrm_you: He says maemo-cplusplus-device-env does not include gcc executable08:20
DavidePalmRST38h maybe I just dont know how to use it... should the gcc command be available in the terminal or does it have to be typed a certain way?08:21
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DavidePalmI can use it on my ubuntu installation but not on maemo08:21
DavidePalmgcc that is08:21
RST38hDavide: gcc and g++ commands should be available in the terminal08:21
DavidePalmubuntu on my desktop that is08:21
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rm_yougcc package is available at least in chinook repos... you can grab the deb from there08:21
rm_youshould be in diablo too08:21
DavidePalmrm_you I tried, went directly to http://repository.meamo.org08:22
DavidePalmand followed through to gcc-3.408:22
DavidePalmor whatever the file is...08:22
DavidePalmand tried to install, and it says incompatible version08:22
RST38hWhat OS are you running?08:23
RST38hon the tablet that is08:23
DavidePalmOS 200808:23
RST38hok08:23
rm_youthese: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/g/gcc-3.4/ ?08:23
DavidePalmlatest one I guess08:23
DavidePalmyup thats exactly where I went08:23
DavidePalmhang on let me try again08:23
rm_youjust use apt-get08:23
DavidePalmand I'll tell you what it says... I"m rebooting just a sec08:23
rm_youapt-get install g++08:23
RST38hgcc too08:24
DavidePalmwait so how do I add that repository before running apt-get?08:24
DavidePalmforgot the command08:24
RST38hyes.08:24
RST38hGo to app manager and add it there08:24
rm_youvim /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon something08:24
DavidePalmjust add http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/g/gcc-3.4/08:24
rm_youhit tab at the end08:24
rm_youno08:24
DavidePalmor just repository.maemo.org08:24
rm_youthat's the base repo08:25
rm_youit's in there08:25
rm_youdon't add it08:25
DavidePalmso just click to it and install?08:25
rm_youno08:25
rm_youopen a terminal08:25
rm_youget root08:25
DavidePalmok08:25
rm_youand then use apt-get08:25
rm_youapt-get install g++08:25
DavidePalm"Couldn't find package g"08:26
DavidePalmrm_you do you have os 2008 as well?08:26
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RST38hDavide: apt-get install gcc08:29
rm_youahh08:29
rm_youno it's in the sdk repo08:29
rm_youso you do need to add a line08:29
rm_youit's this:08:29
rm_youoh dear god08:30
rm_youwell i was going to read you the line but my tablet appears to have morphed into a zebra >_>08:30
rm_youthis can't be good08:30
DavidePalmlol08:30
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rm_youmy screen is now a series of vertical thin black, grey and white lines08:31
rm_youtime to pull the battery08:31
DavidePalm:(08:31
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DavidePalmgl08:31
rm_youok well it appears to boot?08:32
Stskeepsrm_you: mer on internal flash?08:32
rm_yousec and i'll get you that line08:32
rm_youyes08:32
rm_youerr08:32
rm_youno08:32
rm_youwell08:32
rm_youno08:32
rm_yousorry took me a sec to parse, it's late here :P08:32
Stskeepsi've seen that problem on maemo too though08:32
rm_youinternal SD on n800, not on flash :)08:32
rm_youthis is maemo :(08:32
Stskeepsi'd install bootmenu with usb telnet before your screen eventually dies :P08:33
rm_youdeb http://repository.maemo.org/ diablo/sdk free non-free08:34
rm_youadd that to the end of your /etc/apt/sources.list.d/hildon-application-manager.list08:34
rm_youthen apt-get update08:34
rm_youand apt-get install gcc08:34
DavidePalmwait ok I'm on the flash card right now I boot from internal flash08:34
DavidePalmis that the problem?08:34
rm_youwell i gotta go to sleep so i can drive four three hours in the morning, but good luck08:35
rm_youerr, no?08:35
rm_youjust add that line to the sources.list file and update and install gcc08:35
rm_youyou familiar with apt?08:35
DavidePalmso so08:35
DavidePalmkinda new08:35
rm_youwell, you should be fine08:35
rm_youthe important note is the repository08:36
DavidePalmapt-cache search does what?08:36
rm_yousearches08:36
rm_you:)08:36
DavidePalmapt-cache search gcc gives me "gcc-3.4-base..."08:36
DavidePalmdoes that mean I have it?08:36
rm_youno08:36
DavidePalmok08:36
rm_youit's searching the entire installable package database08:36
DavidePalmah08:36
rm_youapt-cache policy08:36
rm_youis what you want08:36
rm_youwill tell you if it is installed, if so what version, and from wherre08:36
DavidePalmInstalled (none)08:37
rm_youanywho, good luck, people should be able to help you from here08:37
rm_youonce you've added that line, just do this:08:37
rm_youapt-get update08:37
rm_youapt-get install gcc08:37
rm_youthen gcc will be installed :)08:37
DavidePalmok ty rm_you I'm gonna try right now08:38
rm_youkk08:38
rm_yoube somewhat careful installing stuff from the sdk repo... it works, and a few people do it on device, but be prepared for possibly at some point something bad happening :P08:38
rm_youit's just not "recommended"08:38
DavidePalmok08:39
rm_youbut if all you want is gcc it should be fine08:39
DavidePalmya thats all08:39
rm_youjust don't go installing the whole thing :P08:39
* rm_you sleeps08:39
DavidePalmI'm taking an intro C class, and just want a simple compiler for small console apps08:39
rm_youlast note: my intro C class was "we need an applet for our tablet that changes the backlight. make it work!" and it was far more effective than the class i had in college :P08:40
DavidePalmrm_you <3 <3 <308:40
DavidePalmyou know I had tried that before... and the mistake I made was... I only kept putting "Diablo" in the distribution... never included the "sdk"08:41
DavidePalmI guess that made it inaccessible08:41
DavidePalmanyhow it works thanks so much rm_you it's installing right now :P08:41
rm_you:)08:41
DavidePalmheh I was so desperate, trying to get this for a few days now haha08:42
rm_youhey yeah, i made the same mistake at first, although it only took me about 30 seconds to figure out what went wrong... but i've been doing this for like 10 years, lol08:42
DavidePalmand it was such a stupid mistake08:42
DavidePalmyeah I'm just learning :P08:42
rm_yougotta start somewhere :)08:42
DavidePalmnot a linux person08:42
DavidePalmya08:42
* rm_you really sleeps08:42
DavidePalmso g++ is an IDE?08:43
rm_youno, it literally just compiles a .cpp file08:43
* rm_you really will sleep eventually08:43
rm_youyou just use a text editor08:43
DavidePalmoh I downloade geany08:43
rm_younever heard of it08:43
rm_youmight work08:43
rm_youno clue08:43
DavidePalmbut on the N800 I use the matchbox keyboard for it which is kind of annoying...08:43
DavidePalmis there any editor other then regular notes or something?08:44
rm_youvim08:44
DavidePalman C editor?08:44
rm_youvim?08:44
DavidePalmvim? just apt-get install vim?08:44
rm_youmaybe08:44
DavidePalmok i'll look into it08:44
DavidePalmgo to sleep :P08:44
DavidePalmthanks08:44
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rm_youthere's like three different versions of vim out there in a few repositories, with semi-broken versioning08:44
rm_youand some of them work right and some dont08:44
DavidePalmI've used pico before is it sorta like that?08:44
rm_youViM is a standard editor... with lots of complicated-ness involved08:45
rm_yousort of, except you'll be pulling out your hair for the first few months08:45
DavidePalmLOL08:45
rm_youbut after that it's great :P08:45
rm_yougo download and print the cheatsheat08:45
rm_youhttp://www.viemu.com/vi-vim-cheat-sheet.gif08:46
rm_youi'08:46
oespirit<3 vim08:46
rm_youi've been using ViM for about 7 years and i know just about what half of those keys do :P08:46
rm_youwell maybe 3/408:46
DavidePalmI've used vi before and almost did hang myself.. I guess it comes from that?08:47
rm_youyes08:47
rm_youbut better08:47
DavidePalmew08:47
DavidePalmok08:47
DavidePalmgotcha08:47
rm_youVi iMproved08:47
rm_youor something like that08:47
rm_youanywho08:47
DavidePalmguess it'd be good to learn it :P08:47
* rm_you really really sleeps for real08:47
* rm_you glares at a channel full of bad influences08:47
ShadowJKquiver is awesome08:48
DavidePalmwhat's that Shadow_M?08:48
DavidePalmeditor?08:48
ShadowJKno, image viewer08:48
DavidePalmoh08:49
ShadowJKlike, I was looking at the list of image viewers wondering why there has to be so many08:49
ShadowJKand can't there be one that's, well tolerable08:50
ukkiDavidePalm: there should be nano if you are used to pico08:50
DavidePalmukki oh yeah? should be available through apt-get?08:50
ukkicheck with apt-cache search nano08:50
DavidePalmdoesnt return anything08:51
ShadowJKI don't think I knew the concept of "good image viewer" before, it's like I had been searching for a new sharp chisel to go with my stone tablets and someone gave me a word processor08:52
ShadowJKit's so rare these days that I find software that truly impresses me I had to tell atleast this chan :)08:53
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ShadowJKit /feels/ faster on n8x0 than what I was using on core2quad :>08:54
DavidePalmlol08:55
ukkiDavidePalm: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo4.1.1/free/n/nano/08:56
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DavidePalmah thanks ukki I'll check it out09:10
DavidePalmhey I was just trying to compile a "Hello world" but cpp cant find <stdio.h>09:10
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DavidePalmdo I have dl libraries separately?09:10
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thuxmorning09:12
DavidePalmhi09:12
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StskeepsDavidePalm: libc-dev09:13
DavidePalmI have to dl that?09:14
Stskeepsyeah09:14
DavidePalm:)09:15
DavidePalmdownloading09:15
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waswasHi everyone09:42
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waswasHas anyone used Code::Blocks with maemo developing?09:59
StskeepsCode::Blocks?10:04
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waswashttp://www.codeblocks.org/10:09
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Stskeepsah, no idea10:10
waswasI'm still newbie, when it comes to linux10:10
Stskeepspeople use eclipse for some things10:10
waswasI found that out, but i like code::blocks more :P10:11
waswasBut maybe i need to test eclipse after all :>10:11
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mavhcwhy can't I see my shared smb folders in File Manager? I can see the computer10:23
ukkiare they password protected?10:24
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* RST38h cringes at the mention of Eclipse10:38
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mavhcanonymous and everyone have access to them, so I'd assume not10:51
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JaffaMorning, all10:55
Stskeepsmorning jaffa10:55
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* Stskeeps has a fun morning with Intel bios SATA problems10:56
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wazd_n800long live the King :(11:36
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X-Fadewazd_n800: Yeah, pretty sad.11:38
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X-FadeHmm were is that qwerty guy at? :)11:55
RST38hUK?11:56
X-FadeRST38h: yeah. I know, he just is not online.11:56
wazd_n800A2DP became fine as suddenly as it broke... My tablet is living it's own life I suppose11:59
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wazd_n800by the way, I've started to notive slight afterburn of the screen, what does it mean?12:00
wazd_n800notice*12:01
RST38hmoo wazd12:01
AStormafterburn?12:01
RST38hpermanent?12:01
AStormmoo guys12:01
wazd_n800AStorm, RST38h, heya12:01
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wazd_n800RST38h, well, it apears eventually, not every time, and acts like screen on cold12:02
AStormhmmm faulty LCD maybe?12:03
wazd_n800RST38h, I can see characters fading out slowly.12:03
X-FadeThe missing base64 package is now available in the sdk repository: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free/b/base64/12:05
wazd_n800astorm, dunno12:07
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AStormhey,  where is the file that mounts mmc in maemo?12:09
Stskeepske-recv12:09
AStormah, that's it12:10
mikkov_X-Fade: Where are the download counter updates? :)12:11
X-Fademikkov_: The reporting tool keeps sending me empty logs.12:11
X-Fademikkov_: A ticket has been filed already.12:12
andre__~seen netblade12:13
infoboti haven't seen 'netblade', andre__12:13
andre__infobot, okay, go to sleep12:14
* infobot falls to the floor where he's standing and goes into a deep sleep12:14
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AStormStskeeps, but there was a file with mount insns12:18
AStormand I can't find the name12:18
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AStormblah12:21
AStormobviously, /usr/sbin/mmc-mount12:21
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AStormthis needs a fix to check for 1) mounted fs 2) anything other than vfat12:24
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lardmanmorning12:35
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VDVsxmorning lardman12:39
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lardmanhi VDVsx12:40
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cpmHi, I am using Qt4 under Maemo with Nokia N810. When I click a QLineEdit field, there comes up a field for handwriting input. How can I prevent this? It overlaps the actual QLineEdit, as this is quite on the lower part of the GUI.13:09
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_mohi @all13:19
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danielwilmscpm, sorry for the late reply, trying to figure out what the problem is ;)13:24
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_moi am trying to start bluez in scratchbox target x86 through /etc/init.d/bluez-utils and it fails13:39
_moany suggestions? bluetooth stick is connected and showing up in hciconfig13:39
VDVsx_mo, hciconfig inside scratchbox ?13:40
_moif I remove the line where the PATH variable is set from /etc/init.d/bluez-utils it works ...13:41
VDVsx_mo, the current path should be /etc/init.d/bluetooth start, I think13:42
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_moyes running hciconfig inside scratchbox shows hci0 up running13:43
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* lcuk deflates14:00
* RichiH blows up lcuk 14:00
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* lardman supplies some TNT14:01
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lardmanperhaps a bicycle tyre repair kit would be better though ;)14:04
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lcukRichiH, thats not the kind of boost i need14:10
lcuk:D and yeah lardman, that would prolly help14:10
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* VDVsx sends a pack of beers to lcuk14:15
lcuk:D that sounds like a plan14:15
jeremiahWhere's my beer?14:22
JaffaBeer. Hmm, interesting idea.14:25
* Stskeeps will be getting beer at work14:25
* Jaffa 's having a bacon butty for lunch. Beer does go well with it14:25
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andre__jeremiah, still in the systembolaget? :-P14:27
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jeremiahandre__: Yes - I'm afraid so. :-/14:30
* Jaffa is having a Michael Jackson day from Spotify today.14:31
andre__hmm, now as complaints about broken icq and yahoo messenger get popular, does anybody plan to pack pidgin-2.5.7 for maemo? :-/14:31
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Stskeepsthink there was some discussion yesterday14:32
jeremiahHmm. It would be cool if 'Request for Packaging' had an output list so people could see what packages people want14:35
jeremiahThen people new to the community can quickly get integrated by picking up on one of those packages14:35
jeremiahGet some karma points, package something, learn about the platform, etc.14:35
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JaffaSomething which it needs to make clear: is it expected you'd put a package name; upstream unix name; English description; general description. One thing we've seen before (and seen again in Brainstorm) is explaining to users why "port wine" won't solve the problem they think it does.14:37
jeremiahGood point.14:38
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AStormand "port wine" is a huge task14:48
AStormrequiring CPU emulation14:49
AStormand probably would work very slow14:49
JaffaAStorm: indeed; that was kinda my point ;-)14:49
cosmodoes wine support cpu emulation btw?14:50
AStormnow, 'update pidgin hildonization' is not14:50
AchipA_awaycpm: are you using C++ or python ?14:51
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Jaffacosmo: I believe you can get wine to run in conjunction with qemu, BICBW14:51
AStormcosmo, €es, that's how wine runs on PPC14:52
AStorm*yes14:52
cosmowell, then it wouldn't be impossible14:52
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AStormgetting qemu to run here would be hard14:53
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AStormgetting it to run fast even harder14:53
AchipA_awaycpm: if C++, take a look at http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4Hildon#Maemo_Qt_API_Reference , check the Input section, you can play with how HIM works14:53
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Jaffacosmo: No one said it was impossible; just mostly a lot of effort for very little, mostly impractical, gain14:54
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AchipA_awaycpm: if python, you're out of luck, there are a foew known bugs regarding HIM that need fixing14:54
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cosmoi think speed would be enough for basic gui apps, but nothing very useful14:54
Jaffacosmo: have you ever done x86 emulation on ARM?14:54
AchipA_awaywon't memory kill you before even you get to the point of being slow ?14:54
JaffaApart from the lack of memory, drawing the *GUI* will take minutes14:54
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AStormnah, that part is done by Wine14:55
AStormthe emulation part is to execute the apps themselves14:56
AStormany more intensive app will stall14:56
cosmoJaffa: well, dosemu runs fine on maemo14:56
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AStormalso, wine+qemu is huge14:57
RazumihinIt's pretty much impossible to do decent x86 emulation on ARM.14:57
AStormRazumihin, wrong14:57
AStormeasier than you'd think14:58
RazumihinAStorm: At least on the older ones like nokia devices you don't even have native floating point numbers...14:58
AStormoffload to softfpu library14:58
lcuknative x86 doesnt have floats either14:59
AStormthey do have FPUs since Pentium14:59
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RazumihinYes. Okay, you could have emulation on modern arm, but i don't really see the point in emulating at least on maemo.15:00
AStormwine would give us some apps15:00
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lcukwhat stops us getting windows mobile on device15:00
AStormbut not the useful mobile ones15:00
RazumihinWith really crappy UIs15:01
lcukor at least or wine for mobile rather15:01
AStormbecause it doesn't support most of winmob and .net15:01
AStormRazumihin, better than none15:01
lcuk.net compact doesnt support most of .net ;)15:01
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AStormbut it's still .net 315:01
AStormwhich mono doesn't support15:01
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RazumihinAStorm: Yes but i don't see the point. Tablet is just not suited to that kind of applications :) I would rather bring atom laptop.15:01
AStormyou'd also have to port mono15:01
AStorm:P15:01
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lcukdone isnt it15:02
AStormRazumihin, for windows mobile apps?15:02
RazumihinAStorm: Isn't winmo ARM?15:02
AStormno, it isn't15:02
RazumihinOh. Then i agree:)15:02
RazumihinSorry for the fuzz i remember them being ARM based devices.15:03
lcuk?15:03
AStormwell15:03
AStormno, there are 2 variants of winmo15:03
lcukthere was a vmware demo showing wimo or something15:03
AStormbut that's winmo x8615:03
lcuksome virtualized thing switching between linux and winmo15:04
* lcuk cant remember15:04
AStormbah15:04
AStormwinmo does have an arm version15:04
lcukwinmo isnt for x86 tho15:05
lcukthere are no x86 winmo parts?15:05
AStormthere is winmo for x8615:05
lcukthe arm version is the default isnt it?15:05
AStormit is15:05
lcukits been running on xscales and things for years15:05
AStormso, we still get some stuff running15:05
RazumihinYeah... i remember it so in the beginning of 200015:05
AStormbut until someone improves mono to run .net compact...15:05
lcuksomeone built mono for maemo didnt they15:06
AStormbuilding is ok15:06
AStormbut not enough15:06
AStormit doesn't support net 3 which compact has parts of15:06
lcukits a start tho15:07
lcukits not like you have to write the whole .net framework from scratch15:07
lcukand im sure there are mono guys aiming towards getting everything required in15:07
lcukand then its plain sailing15:07
lcuk*for varying amounts of plain15:08
lcukanyway, the whole start of this convo, someone mentioned that wine has an x86->arm emulator?15:09
lcuki thought wine mean "wine is not an emulator"15:09
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AStormno, it can use qemu15:09
lcukahh15:10
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cpmdanielwilm: thanks! could you please use my email address mayer@tm.uka.de as correspondance for this. thanks a lot!15:17
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danielwilmscpm I will do this, no problem15:23
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RST38hEHLO15:30
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AchipA_away501 Syntactically invalid EHLO argument(s)15:32
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lcukRST38h, \o ack!15:35
* RST38h suddenly remembers he promised fMSX-Maemo sources to qwerty15:38
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andre__timeless, what is "DUPEME" in the status whiteboard?15:42
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timeless_mbp"it is believed that this is a duplicate of an existing bug, would a qa please find that bug and resolve one of them as a duplicate of the other"15:43
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: if i locate the old engineering english desktop strings that match mer hildon-desktop would you be interested in making US versions of them? then our set should be fairly complete?15:46
Stskeepsyou might have to do some merging into maemo-af-desktop-l10n15:46
timeless_mbpStskeeps: you can pull them from my diablo strings :)15:46
Stskeepshmm true15:46
timeless_mbpmy licenses says "you're free to take them" :)15:47
timeless_mbps/es/e/15:47
infobottimeless_mbp meant: my license says "you're free to take them" :)15:47
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Stskeepsi just might15:48
Stskeepsthen we have a full set i guess15:50
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Macerla la la15:51
Stskeepsnot entirely sure where claudius disappeared off to, so i'm pushing a bit on this work as it's a showstopper for 0.15 if it doesn't have strings :P15:51
suihkulokkiengineering engrish15:51
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Stskeepsindeed15:52
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andre__timeless, in the long run i can add a "probabledup" keyword as in gnome, but i don't think it's a dup :)15:56
* timeless_mbp shrugs15:57
timeless_mbpwe've been using DUPEME in sw in gecko for nearly a decade15:57
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andre__ah15:57
andre__also nice15:57
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fiferboylbt: Hey16:13
fiferboyI see your OBS Qt build going, it's made it to examples16:14
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* man_in_shack waves16:23
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man_in_shackanyone here know much about harmattan? :)16:26
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GAN800Apparently the Rays had a good game last night. . . .16:29
GAN800man_in_shack, official Qt support.16:30
fiferboyGAN800: Anyone can beat the Phillies these days.16:30
fiferboyThe Jays just swept them in Phillie16:30
GAN800man_in_shack, that's mostly the extent of what we're sure about although there should be a bit more info on the roadmap on the wiki.16:31
GAN800fiferboy, well, there're broken beer bottles all over the sidewalk out front. ;)16:31
fiferboyAh, that's how you can tell!16:31
fiferboyI guess it is good revenge, after losing the World Series to them last year16:32
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Jaffaman_in_shack: some mockups of an integrated widget-oriented; scrollable home screen.16:33
oespirit~seen vimzard16:34
infobotvimzard is currently on #gsoc (8h 27m 27s), last said: 'sid0: :-P'.16:34
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man_in_shackwell, apparently a wireless network feature i want has been planned for harmattan16:36
man_in_shackso ... i'm wondering what devices it will be released for16:37
JaffaOh?16:37
man_in_shackhttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163516:37
Jaffaman_in_shack: We've no idea on that :(16:37
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Jaffaman_in_shack: Oh, if yours is the final comment: no, it won't be available for existing devices16:38
man_in_shackso that's yet another slap in the goddamn face16:38
JaffaFremantle (due out at some point this year) isn't even being released for N8x0s; but portions of it are being backported to N8x0 and 770 devices in Mer16:38
man_in_shackhow about they actually do something sensible and backport the wireless improvements to diablo?16:39
Jaffaman_in_shack: Err, Harmattan is roadmapped for release either late *next* year or the year after (my guess). The N810 is over two years old; running a cutting edge mobile OS on (at least) 4 year old hardware seems pretty unreasonable as an expectation.16:39
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man_in_shackone little feature is all i ask16:39
man_in_shackit's not like it's difficult16:40
Jaffaman_in_shack: Who's "they"? They might be available via Mer (or Mer might already have it via its Ubuntu base)16:40
man_in_shackf*** mer16:40
Jaffaman_in_shack: Ah, you're a coder?16:40
man_in_shackunstable crap16:40
man_in_shackJaffa, the wpa-supplicant support for that particular type of network is something like 20 lines of code16:40
Jaffaman_in_shack: If you know it's not difficult, I assume you're familiar with the innards of Linux network stacks & Maemo's UI code; so if it's not hard you can add it yourself.16:40
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man_in_shacklast i heard maemo's networking system was closed source16:41
Jaffaman_in_shack: Mer's under development, and its developers are some of the most committed and dedicated volunteers in the community. Calling its in-development releases "unstable crap" is just plain trolling.16:41
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man_in_shackJaffa, mer is unsuited to my needs16:41
Jaffa*Now*, perhaps. The aim long term is for it not to be unsuited to your needs. And if it includes whatever wifi protocols you require, that's a win.16:42
man_in_shacki need something that, e.g., doesn't continuously assume i'm hitting Enter when trying to put the cursor in a text field16:43
* Myrtti smells love in the air16:43
RST38hman_in_shack: If you do not like Mer, use OS2008.16:45
man_in_shackos2008 doesn't have the wifi support i need16:45
MyrttiRST38h: but but but it doesn't have the wifi!16:45
RST38hman_in_shack: If you do not like OS2008, put together your own distro16:45
RST38hMyrtti: Wait, we are slowly getting to that ;)16:46
man_in_shackand to be perfectly honest, nokia has just been sitting around on their butts since they first released os2007 when it comes to this particular configuration of wireless network16:46
man_in_shacknow they finally say they are PLANNING to support it, and it's only for new devices16:46
Myrttiman_in_shack: here, have a lollipop16:46
man_in_shackwhich is just a money making scheme16:46
RST38hman_in_shack: I am sure you can pay someone to implement what you want16:47
man_in_shackany suggestions on who?16:47
RST38hman_in_shack: There are guys from Openismus and other embedded Linux companies in the Nokia community16:48
qwerty12_N810man_in_shack: bothered to read #43?16:48
Stskeepsdid you try to get the wpasupplicant ICD plugin? :P16:48
RST38hman_in_shack: I suggest you post your request (with bounty amount) on talk.maemo.org or one of the mailing lists16:48
man_in_shackqwerty12_N810, could not get it to work16:48
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man_in_shackin fact, could not even find a correct driver to install16:49
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RST38hand nokia or mer are somehow guilty of it?16:53
man_in_shackfor failing to support this network type from the very start? yes16:53
Jaffaman_in_shack: You think Nokia is intentionally introducing new OSes which try to compete with the Androids, webOSes and iPhones of this world to gouge money out of existing customers by prematurely obsoleting hardware? Or were you (correctly) just saying that by constantly pushing forward the OS, they're trying to entice in new customers and increase market share in an increasingly competitive market?16:54
Jaffaman_in_shack: Yeah, but a) it was never advertised as supporting it; b) moaning about the past seems pretty unproductive.16:54
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: heads up btw, tear will break with 0.716:54
Stskeeps(vala)16:54
RST38hman_in_shack: well, Nokia does not support my 802.11a and TokenRing installations. Should I blame Nokia for that too?16:55
man_in_shackJaffa, was it ever advertised as supporting MSCHAPv2?16:55
man_in_shackit was advertised as supporting WPA-EAP16:55
JaffaStskeeps: Didn't Bundyo say he was updating it to support the required changes? (in the tear thread after I said 0.7.3 was now in extras)16:55
StskeepsJaffa: oh, possibly - the source i had wasn't fixed yet16:55
man_in_shackwhich it does not because it does not support this ONE configuration of WPA-EAP16:55
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Myrttihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNC0kIzM1Fo Love is in the air!16:55
Jaffaman_in_shack: If the device doesn't do as it was advertised: send it back and/or take Nokia to court for fale advertising.16:55
man_in_shackwhich is a common configuration for a variety of businesses and educational institutes world-wide16:55
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RST38hhow common?16:56
JaffaStskeeps: IIRC he said he *would* update, not that he had - so it might still not be done ;-)16:56
man_in_shackvast majority of eduroam systems16:56
RST38hMy university does not use it. My employer does not use it. WiFi APs across the city do not use it. My home AP does not use it.16:56
Stskeepseduroam should work fine if you add the certificate16:56
Stskeepsseveral guides for it16:56
man_in_shackno16:56
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man_in_shackeduroam comes in two varieties16:57
man_in_shackone is supported, one is not16:57
man_in_shackguess which one i have to work with16:57
RST38htough luck.16:57
man_in_shackit's not the fucking microsoft one that nokia DOES support16:57
* VDVsx is glad that the n8x0 wifi works very well in the eduroam network in his country :P16:57
RST38hVDVsx: It IS the fucking microsoft one! =)16:58
MyrttiI guess it makes him happier to rant about it16:58
* GAN800 joins the whine tasting.16:58
RST38hMyrtti: maybe we should channel him toward OGG support? =)16:58
VDVsxRST38h, don't care, it works :P16:58
MyrttiRST38h: OH BOY!16:58
RST38hVDVsx: It is because of people like you Bill Gates is growing his 5th chin right now!16:59
Myrttilet's start with that!16:59
man_in_shackhow the HELL is announcing support for this in harmattan meant to help anyone who's "stuck" with their older devices?16:59
Myrttiman_in_shack: would you rather not to have it in Harmattan?16:59
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man_in_shackMyrtti, i don't give a flying fuck about harmattan if i can't use it16:59
RST38hmoo pupnik16:59
RST38hMyrtti: He does have a point, about Harmattan =)17:00
VDVsxRST38h, nah, the university paid Cisco for the work and material :P, and the servers run debian :) (at least in my university)17:01
MyrttiRST38h: good entertainment is what I call him17:01
Stskeepsif you have wpa supplicant working, http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:xZT6Jw6lA5wJ:eduroam.metu.edu.tr/wpa_supplicant.conf+eduroam+wpa+supplicant+EAP-TTLS+%2B+PAP&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=dk looks fairly trivial.17:01
RST38hVDVsx: Oh, the horror! Debian is supporting the world evil (tm)!17:01
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Stskeepser, http://eduroam.metu.edu.tr/wpa_supplicant.conf17:01
Jaffaman_in_shack: If you want to whine and moan that Nokia isn't going to support it on your device; tough - go somewhere else, we can't help. If you're having problems getting the community-provided solutions working, it seems people are trying to help.17:02
VDVsxRST38h, lol17:02
man_in_shackStskeeps, that's a pretty damn big "if"17:03
man_in_shackas nokia's drivers don't even support wext17:03
Stskeepsthey do, with a fairly easy patch17:03
Stskeepsgrab mer's cx3110x.ko17:03
RST38hman_in_shack: If it is any consolation, Nokia does not support SIP through NAT on my cell phone17:04
RST38hman_in_shack: So, should I start attacking Nokia stores with Molotov coctails because of that? =)17:04
StskeepsRST38h: i had you suspected of having such plans!17:04
VDVsxRST38h, yes, please, lolol17:04
Myrttias long as you keep out of Finland17:05
AStormman_in_shack, there is an open driver by Nokia that does support wext17:05
AStormso stfu17:05
AStorm:)17:05
man_in_shackAStorm, where?17:05
man_in_shackRST38h, STFU17:05
AStormthey don't use it yet in maemo17:05
AStormcx3310~17:05
AStormcx3310x google it17:05
RST38h<another successfully phallomorphed target>17:05
Myrtticomic relief ♥17:05
AStormas Stskeeps "aid17:05
Myrttican see it's Friday17:06
* Stskeeps passes Myrtti beer from the #maemo friday bar17:06
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Myrttiwohoo! \o/17:06
* RST38h paints another star on his keyboard17:06
AStormman_in_shack, 9h btw, it won't work on the old kernel Maemo uses17:06
AStormonly on a new one (like Mer has)17:06
Stskeepsnah17:07
Stskeepswill work on same kernel.17:07
StskeepsMer doesn't have a new kernel, only patches17:07
AStormand all the Nokia custom apps, that is IPA, don't know about wext17:07
man_in_shackhttps://garage.maemo.org/projects/cx3110x/17:07
AStormyeah that17:07
man_in_shacki think i tried this and couldn't find a sensible download17:07
man_in_shackthere was some other driver that was meant to replace it or something17:07
AStormbecause it isn't built17:07
GAN800man_in_shack, you want to complain, call up Nokia Care.17:07
AStormgrab the module from Mer17:08
Stskeepsman_in_shack: grab a mer tar.gz, extract cx3110x.ko from it, mount initfs rw, copy it in there..17:08
RST38hGAN: Now, *that( is sadistic.17:08
qwerty12_N810Why would you want to build that oldass version?17:08
AStormalso, again, connection manager won't work with it17:08
AStormhave fun installing a replacement17:08
AStormI recommend wicd17:08
Stskeepsmer module will work fine with connection manager17:08
Stskeepswe don't fuck around that much..17:08
Stskeeps:P17:08
AStormit will?17:08
AStormhaha17:08
AStormI suppose it didn't last time17:09
MyrttiDaddy, did  the scary monster go away now?17:09
Stskeepswell honestly i didn't try but it would surprise me if it doesn't17:09
StskeepsMyrtti: mention of "wicd"? :P17:09
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MyrttiStskeeps: the musky smelling hairy beast that lives in a cave17:10
Stskeepswhat, me?17:10
Stskeeps:P17:10
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* Stskeeps goes track down a crashing bug in mer hildon desktop17:10
man_in_shackStskeeps, btw, even if this doesn't work out, thanks for TRYING to help without being deliberately exacerbating like some of the other people here17:10
* lardman notes lots of expletives in the channel17:11
Stskeepsman_in_shack: all that info is in the exact same bug you pointed to, AFAIK17:11
RST38hheya lardman17:11
Stskeepsman_in_shack: also, keep in my mind you just badmouthed my baby and i'm -still- helping you - you get very far with being kind and asking out of the blue if anyone can help you with X because you're stuck at Y17:12
lardmanand on that note, the beer, not the swearing, I'm heading for home17:13
Stskeepsbeer!17:13
lardmancu all later17:13
Stskeepsthe solution to all problems17:13
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lardman|gone:)17:13
GAN800RST38h, well, they're the only people that can help him.17:13
Stskeeps(i can agree mer is sometimes unstable crap, though, hence why i'm doing an effort to fix things :)17:13
RST38hGAN: I haven't seen anyone helped by Nokia Care. Ever.17:14
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man_in_shacki wish i knew what happened to my old mer install17:14
GAN800RST38h, complaining here only serves to irritate people who MIGHT be willing to try helpingz you otherwise. If you want to express your displeasure with Nokia then you need to talk TO Nokia17:15
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RST38hGAN: That goes without argument, of course.17:15
Stskeepsman_in_shack: ran off after knocking up an iphone..17:16
GAN800man_in_shack, just, fyi, first warning here, next time you coming in flinging around insults, don't expect to last long. :)17:16
Stskeepsah, he's been in here before and been cheerful17:17
Stskeeps(no sarcasm in that sentence)17:17
man_in_shackGAN800, i don't expect to be treated like crap because i want a SIMPLE feature that should have been implemented long ago17:17
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AStormnot so simple17:17
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AStormthanks to TI being asses17:17
man_in_shacki don't expect to be treated like crap because i refuse to waste money buying something that will run harmattan when it's released17:18
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suihkulokkiyou should expected to be treated like creap if you enter a irc channel ranting17:18
VDVsxman_in_shack, blame nokia, not the maemo community ;)17:18
Stskeepsman_in_shack: we can agree on that the whole fixed in fremantle/harmattan thing is crap, but it's just because we as community haven't been strong enough to create pipelines for delivering these fixes, or organising people in a manner so it gets done..17:18
AStormthat's why there'll be mer17:19
Stskeepsman_in_shack: which is really what we're doing with mer and eventually the diablo community variants17:19
AStormand that's why there have been hacker editions for 77017:19
man_in_shackand i don't expect to be treated like crap because i want the solution now, when it's actually relevant, not in 12 months when i might not even have access to this particular netowkr17:19
wazd_n800ohohoh, scandal!)17:19
wazd_n800I came just in time)17:20
GAN800man_in_shack, nobody here wants to be treated like crap because you're having a bad morning either. :)17:20
AStormman_in_shack, hire a nokia dev or someone like that to do it...17:20
AStormactually, workaround is now possible thanks to mer17:21
AStormbut this isn't integrated in diablo right now, for obvious reasons17:21
AStormbtw, what kind of feature is that?17:21
man_in_shackwhat obvious reasons?17:21
wazd_n800what's the theme of current speculation?)17:22
wazd_n800I want to participate!)17:22
AStormman_in_shack, all workforce moved to fremantle17:22
AStormand current driver being stable and tested17:23
man_in_shackthat's not an obvious reason for why it wasn't done in the first place17:23
VDVsxwazd_n800, not a speculation, just ranting :P17:23
Jaffaman_in_shack: The main point is that this channel is a community channel, not a Nokia support channel. And we're focused on trynig to solve problems: we've done our sitting around in a moaning circle-jerk before and moved on. More productive times.17:23
AStormit wasn't done, because there was no driver17:24
AStormduh17:24
AStormit's fairly new17:24
AStormgood that they made it17:24
Stskeepscx3110x? released long ago :P17:24
man_in_shackhttps://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=12&release_id=1012 << FEBURARY 200717:25
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wazd_n801I don't know why everybody call TI asses and stuff17:26
qwerty12_N810Look in the diablo sdk repo17:26
AStormStskeeps, but wasn't stable17:26
qwerty12_N810Much newer than the one listed on the garage page17:26
AStormah right17:26
AStormanother obstacle17:26
AStorm:P17:26
AStormit's.... somewhere :P17:26
AStormwazd_n800, because TI NDAs are evil17:27
wazd_n801They had a price list for OMAP2 platform, Nokia decided not to y for video driver. Now TI decided to present our community those drivers for free and you call'em asses17:27
wazd_n801not to pay*17:27
AStorms/those drivers/binaries/17:28
AStormthat's a difference17:28
* oespirit blinks in disbelief after scrolling down more than a dozen screenfuls of rant-ish channel logs17:28
wazd_n801not binaries! Fresh opened drivers with sources17:28
AStormbtw, gimme a link to them17:28
qwerty12_N810AStorm: no, there's talk of a open source powervr driver. it does have some bugs compared to the binary only ones17:28
AStormlink or it didn't happen17:28
wazd_n801have you read a thread?17:28
AStormno17:29
rm_youi thought the problem was that the built-in video chip on the OMAP2 wasn't actually part of the video pipeline because it was too low resolution so there is a different LCD controller powering the screen17:29
wazd_n801AStorm: It's in the same place as the whole gasping17:29
rm_youdid I just pull that out of nowhere, or does someone else know what i'm referring to?17:30
AStormyeah, that is mostly OMAP2 designed for other stuff than a 800x480 tablet17:30
JaffaAStorm: qgil's 9.06-14 task in http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Sprints/June_09 - being tracked in the "N800 has a 3D accelerator?" thread on tmo17:30
Stskeepsrm_you: no, i've heard that before17:30
Stskeepsrm_you: but it doesn't mean that it isn't useful17:30
qwerty12_N810rm_you: it's true17:30
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wazd_n801rm_you: well, this is a secondary problem17:30
rm_youlol alright17:30
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Stskeepsrm_you: how's cross platform backlight coming? :P17:31
wazd_n801rm_you: you can do cool thing with pixel doubling for example17:31
rm_youlol, i've been working and driving and working and driving >_<17:31
GAN800rm_you, memory is system17:31
GAN800the framebuffer isn't any issue17:31
rm_youi thought it already did hardware pixel doubling17:31
man_in_shackoh just thought of something else17:32
GAN800The Epspn chip does free arbitrary scaling17:32
wazd_n801run thru power vr at 400x240 and then double it with Epson17:32
man_in_shackis it possible to disable esd on diablo, preferably temporarily so i can test what i suspect to be a latency issue with some apps?17:32
AStormwazd_n800, or 640x48017:32
AStormand add bars17:32
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wazd_n801astorm, well, there are a lot of tricks)17:33
* rm_you feels guilty for looking quite hungrily at the Archos 717:33
suihkulokkiman_in_shack: iirc /etc/init.d/esd (?) stop17:33
wazd_n801Anyway, they are making pure opened driver for community, so the community can improve it later17:34
man_in_shacksuihkulokki, i tried that, but it seems it autostarted when the app started17:34
AStormwazd_n800, goodie17:34
Stskeepswazd_n801: yeah.. i think people are just bitter :P17:34
Jaffawazd_n801: nothing's confirmed yet - still time for it to go fubar17:34
man_in_shackStskeeps, i can't find maemo's initrd17:34
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AStormpity we can't run compiz on top of that at 800x48017:34
AStorm:/17:34
Stskeepsman_in_shack: we don't have one, /lib/modules/2.6.21-omap1/ somewhere17:34
AStormguess we'll have to settle for Xv17:35
rm_youlol, compix on tablet? rofl17:35
man_in_shacksomeone said initrd17:35
suihkulokkiman_in_shack: hrmh, that might be, I guess you'll need to chmod -x the binary then17:35
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rm_yous/compix/compiz/17:35
infobotrm_you meant: lol, compiz on tablet? rofl17:35
AStormrm_you, why not, w/o effects17:35
man_in_shackthere's no /lib/modules :|17:36
AStormstill, 3D is overrated17:36
rm_youi mean don't get me wrong, i love compiz... i worked a bit on the project when it was forked to beryl...17:36
rm_youbut i don17:36
AStormman_in_shack, it's in initramfs17:36
rm_youbut i don't see the point on the tablet :P17:36
GAN800800x480 at 12bpp should work17:36
AStormthat was tongue in cheek17:36
AStormGAN800, hmm, low color? interesting17:36
rm_youthat17:37
man_in_shackAStorm, it's in where?17:37
AStormdoes the screen have any more?17:37
rm_youhrm17:37
wazd_n801GAN800, well, 12bpp really suxx (17:37
rm_youack gotta go17:37
AStormwazd_n800, you do17:37
rm_youback to idling for a few days :P17:37
wazd_n801Even 16 is not very cool, 12 is uber lame)17:37
AStormthe LCD doesn't have any more than this17:37
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wazd_n801but you can run blackberry UI with this mode :P17:38
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man_in_shackStskeeps, i can't work out where to put this kernel module17:39
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man_in_shackthere's no /lib/modules, apparently no initrd file ...17:39
AStormman_in_shack, it's a separate partition17:40
AStormaccessible via /initrd (but readonly)17:40
Stskeepsman_in_shack: mount -o remount,rw /mnt/initfs ,  put it in /mnt/initfs/lib/modules/somewhere-where-cx3110x.ko is17:40
qwerty12_N810/mnt/initfs/lib/modules/2.6.21-omap117:40
StskeepsAStorm: no initrd on maemo or mer17:40
AStormyeah, that17:40
AStormStskeeps, initramfs, yep17:40
AStormwhatever17:40
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AStormor maybe even not ram :P17:40
AStorminitfs17:40
man_in_shackAStorm, /initrd is not in fstab17:41
AStorm...17:41
AStormit's not17:41
AStorm/mnt/initfs is already mounte17:41
AStormd17:41
man_in_shackah, /dev/root == /mnt/initfs in mtab17:41
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AStorm(by the boot loader)17:41
man_in_shacki see17:41
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AStorm(then pivot_rooted)17:41
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man_in_shacknow i see a file cx3110x_mt.ko17:43
man_in_shackwhat's that?17:43
GAN800400x240 at 16bpp17:43
AStorma variant17:43
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AStormusing different firmware17:43
man_in_shackhm ok17:44
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man_in_shackso first step is to confirm that the WPA-PSK wireless at home works :D17:44
AStormit didn't?17:45
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man_in_shackit did17:45
AStormthat should work17:45
man_in_shacknow it has a new module17:45
AStormah, yep17:45
AStormstill, why do you need the new driver?17:45
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man_in_shackyou don't want to live long do you?17:45
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AStormwhat will I die from laughter?17:46
AStorm:P17:46
* RST38h slaughters AStorm to save Darwin some work17:46
man_in_shackok, home's wireless is being detected but it's not connecting17:47
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AStormdid I mention the conn manager doesn't work with it?17:47
RST38h(before AStorm cuts another power supply open and electrocutes himself that is :))17:47
AStormtry iwconfig17:47
AStormRST38h, I'm not stupid17:47
man_in_shackAStorm, Stskeeps mentioned that it did17:47
Stskeepswell17:47
Stskeepsi'm obviously wrong17:48
man_in_shackfuck17:48
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AStormwpa_supplicant is available17:48
Stskeepslsmod and see if cx3110x is there17:48
RST38hAStorm: don't have to be, "careless" is sufficient17:48
AStormidk if wicd is too17:48
man_in_shackStskeeps, it is, hence the successful scan17:48
AStormRST38h, not *that* careless17:48
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RST38hhehe17:48
Stskeepsman_in_shack: anyway, the wpa extension thingie should work now17:48
Stskeepsfunny normal osso-wlan doesn't work with it17:49
man_in_shackwicd would be fine17:49
man_in_shackif it was available17:49
RST38hCreepy stuff: http://gizmodo.com/5302856/anti+abuse-bus-stop-ad-only-batters-women-when-nobodys-looking17:49
man_in_shackso anyone know if network-manager, wicd, etc are packaged for maemo anywhere?17:52
AStormnm is unlikely, it pulls gnome17:52
man_in_shackindeed17:52
man_in_shackwicd then :P17:52
AStormbut wicd... someone could do it17:52
man_in_shackand wpa-supplicant17:52
AStormStskeeps, maybe you have them?17:53
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AStormmer 100% has wpa-supplicant17:54
AStormnot sure about wicd17:54
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AStorm(it uses nm)17:55
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man_in_shackwell right now i either need a link to a package for at least wpa-supplicant or preferably something with a gui too :P17:59
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man_in_shackscrew it ... maybe someone will be nice enough to send me the maemo cx3110x module so i can at least get my home internet back18:11
Stskeepsyou can always reflash initfs specifically18:12
Stskeeps--flash-only18:12
man_in_shackhmm?18:12
man_in_shackwhat command exactly?18:12
* man_in_shack pokes Stskeeps 18:14
Stskeeps./flasher-3.0 -F fiasco-image --flash-only=initfs or something18:15
man_in_shackhmm18:16
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man_in_shackseem to be missing a few things there18:16
Stskeepshence the "or something"18:17
Stskeepsthere's a guide on how to get rid of bootmenu, same trick18:17
man_in_shacklink?18:18
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Stskeepshttp://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card#Remove_the_menu18:19
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Macerwhere was all this love for michael jackson when the world thought he was a pervert?18:22
RST38hThere is love for michael jackson?18:24
StskeepsMacer: well he was innocent according to the verdict, so18:24
RST38hSts: Just loved children sooooo much, didn't he? =)18:24
man_in_shackis fiasco-flasher sufficient or do i need flasher-3.0?18:24
Macerheh18:25
Maceri know18:25
Maceri dont think he was a pervert18:25
Macermaybe nuts18:25
Macerif one of the parents said... dont give us a cent. we dont want it. just send him to jail18:25
Macerthen i would have believed him to be a pervert18:25
* RST38h wonders if wherever Michael Jackson went now he is kept in a jar filled with formaldehyde18:25
man_in_shackwait a sec18:26
man_in_shackdoes the mer installer flash its own initfs?18:26
MacerRST38h: heh. well. i dont think his chemically altered skin decomposes18:27
Maceri bet all his sorry ass family members are going to be clawing at his money18:28
Macerexcept janet (the only other successful one)18:28
Stskeepsman_in_shack: bootmenu installer does yeah18:28
man_in_shackand maybe jesse18:28
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StskeepsMacer: what money?18:28
Stskeeps:P18:28
Macerlike the mlk jr family who sue people for using their uncle's picture on a t shirt18:28
MacerStskeeps: dont believe what tyou hear18:29
Macerhe had a ton of money18:29
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Macereven more so now that he died18:29
man_in_shackStskeeps, so running the bootmenu installer again should restore my wireless driver? :)18:29
Maceri bet millions flocked to buy michael jackson crap18:29
Macerlike elvis18:29
Stskeepsman_in_shack: we only modify initfs, not overwrite it18:29
man_in_shackoh18:29
lcukis the comeback tour still on?18:29
man_in_shacktoo smart for my own good18:30
Macerlol18:30
man_in_shacklcuk, of course it is18:30
Stskeepslcuk: MJ as one of the zombies?18:30
Macerlcuk: yeah!18:30
man_in_shacklcuk, first ever musician to do a "comeback from the dead" tour18:30
Macernow they can have the jackson 5 reunion too.. where all of his brothers can exploit his death18:30
lcukif he can pull that one off, he deserves his title18:30
Macer=)18:30
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Macersing all their bullshit songs about how they loved michael18:31
Macershow his pictures on a giant imax sized screen while murdering his songs with their own voices18:32
Stskeepsgah.. i so understand why they dropped hildon-desktop like it's hot18:32
Stskeepsas in, 2.018:32
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MacerStskeeps: they dropped it?18:32
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Stskeepsas in remade it for clutter18:32
Macerno more hildon?18:32
Maceroh18:32
Macercould be worse. it could have the symbian gui18:33
man_in_shack<Macer> sing all their bullshit songs about how they loved michael  << incest18:33
JaffaStskeeps: is it cos it's a painful sack of shit?18:33
Macerhilson is ugly18:34
StskeepsJaffa: very unstable18:34
* Stskeeps can crash it pretty decently atm18:34
Macerbut i suppose necessary for the screen space18:34
man_in_shackwell this download is going to take longer than i can stay awake18:34
MacerStskeeps:  make a qt based env18:34
man_in_shackStskeeps, thanks for your help so far18:35
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: X-Osso-Service=com.nokia.whatever-the-fuck will segfault it :\18:35
StskeepsMacer: the thought has crossed my mind.18:35
Stskeepsdid you see Qtablet?18:35
man_in_shacksome time soon i'll try compiling wpa-supplicant and wicd for maemo18:35
MacerStskeeps: no18:35
Maceri dont have my n800 anymore ;)18:35
StskeepsMacer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAwmW6_G0TM18:35
Macerok18:36
Macerwill check it out18:36
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Maceromfg18:40
MacerStskeeps: that is awesome!18:40
Macerlol18:40
Maceruse that!18:40
Macerhaha18:40
Stskeepsexcept development kinda stalled18:41
Macerthen unstall it18:41
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* Stskeeps wonders what on earth libiphb is for18:49
Stskeepsbesides heartbeat stuff18:49
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oespiritStskeeps: to render yet another package out-of-reach and unbuildable18:57
Stskeepsoespirit: ah, but easily hackable18:57
Stskeepsi just built hildon-home18:57
Stskeepswith a bit of good old fashioned delete everything that moves18:57
Stskeeps:P18:57
oespiritStskeeps: that applies to many of the things in the UI. wonder if they thought nobody would bother hacking18:57
oespiritStskeeps: keeping icons closed for instance, is just too much18:58
Stskeepsah, but that's sortof replacable18:58
oespiritStskeeps: precisely my point. Why keep things closed if you know people will get to them anyways19:00
Stskeepsin this particular fashion i would say because of competition :P19:02
Stskeepsit would have been a very possible thing that some random chinese manufactorer had fremantle beta and published before nokia's first device with it19:02
oespiritStskeeps: they can do that now with mer :P19:03
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Stskeepsnah, hardly as much as with a full fremantle :P19:04
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GAN800Stskeeps, can you imagine if the SmartQ shipped with Fremantle? ;)19:23
Stskeepsi suspect that would single-handedly kill nokia involvement in open source19:24
Stskeeps(there's a reason why we try to differentiate mer ui, really)19:24
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lopzhola20:02
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MacerStskeeps: screw hildon.. use qtablet :-P20:11
Macerlol20:12
Macerit's so pretty20:12
Macerit is going to make me buy an n81020:12
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AStormMacer, linky?20:16
AStormwhy would it require n810?20:17
Macerwell. i gave Stskeeps my n80020:17
Macerso why would i get another one when n810s are so cheap?20:17
Macer:)20:17
AStormheh20:18
* GAN800 throws up a little in his mouth at Nokia Android netbooks.20:18
AStormlink to qtablet please?20:18
StskeepsGAN800: url?20:18
Macerhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAwmW6_G0TM20:18
AStormlol20:18
Macerandroid netbooks?20:18
GAN800Somebody needs to hand Android the smackdown. I'm more tired of it than I am of the iPhone.20:19
AStormMacer, nonyoutube plz?20:19
Macerandroid would kind of suck on something that can run xp20:19
GAN800http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=30004920:19
Macerhey20:19
Maceri have an n80020:19
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Macerer20:19
GAN800Android kind of sucks period20:19
Macerg120:19
Macerlol20:19
RST38hGAN: Any particular reasons?20:19
Macerit is better than most phone operating systems20:20
RST38h(other than the ones I know about =))20:20
StskeepsGAN800: analyst..20:20
Maceri couldnt see it on a netbook tho20:20
GAN800RST38h, didn't care for the G1 or the software, Google, Java, open source bs.20:20
Macerbut my g1 is great20:20
GAN800(in no particular order)20:20
RST38hAha20:20
GAN800RST38h, Android is like tegra20:20
Firebirdwell isn't maemo turning into a phone os similar to android and iphoneos20:20
RST38hTegra is actually hardware though =)20:21
Macerheh20:21
GAN800Every fanboi gets wrongful feelings when they hear about it, but it's largely just hype.20:21
RST38hFirebird: Maemo is turning into S60 replacement on high end Nokia phones20:21
RST38hWhether you like this fact or not is completely up to you20:21
MacerGAN800: ive been using android. it is good20:21
GAN800Firebird, way more powerful than any of those.20:21
Macerminus the lack of bt stuff20:21
GAN800No manufacturer/carrier/developer impossed insanity.20:22
GAN800Java, AppStore, whatever.20:22
Macerlike file xfering and i had to build it myself20:22
MacerGAN800: you dont know that yet20:22
Firebirdyea, it may be coming soon20:22
Macerit has a built in hspda modem20:22
GAN800Who wants to bet there'll be absolutely zero issue tethering to an N900? :)20:22
Macerwhy tether?20:22
Macer:)20:22
Macerthe modem is built in20:23
GAN800Because Comcast sucks ass20:23
GAN800Macer, tether TO.20:23
AStormaaaah :)20:23
Macerand i dont have much of an issue tethering my g1 to anything20:23
AStormyeah, that better work20:23
AStormsee, bluez can tether20:23
AStormas long as tthere's a nice ui20:23
Macerso can adhoc wifi20:24
Macerwith some iptables rules20:24
AStormthat's not effortless20:24
Macerand probably works more efficiently than bt tethering20:24
AStormthat's true, though not power efficiently20:24
GAN800adhoc eats power20:24
MacerAStorm: it is when you have an app that has a "start tether" button20:24
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Macernot too badly20:25
AStormGAN800, that's why bt pan is better20:25
Maceryou could always get the larger g1 battery20:25
Macer:)20:25
AStormand even bt dun - but I've no idea how to set that up w/ bluez20:26
Macerif my g1 had printing support it would own all20:26
AStormnope20:26
AStormtry to play a movie20:26
* mgedmin had figured out once how to setup bt dun, but never had any success with pan20:26
AStormmgedmin, howto plz20:26
AStormpan is easy, just enable and route20:27
* mgedmin sighs20:27
mgedminboth are damn too hard20:27
RST38hmgdemin: that is because os2008 does not support it out of the box20:27
* mgedmin notices distinct deterioration in his grammar20:27
AStormmgedmin, yeah, a good UI would be much better20:27
Maceri still cant see android on a ntbook20:27
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Macernetbook20:27
Macerit would be rather pointless20:27
AStormnitbook? ;)20:28
mgedminfwiw the bt dun I'd set up was to get my palm tx to sync via bluetooth (using network sync) with my laptop; and it was some time ago20:28
Macerno offense but i cant see mer on one either20:28
Macerwhen you can just put debian or even better..opensolaris on it :)20:28
Macerthose types of operating systems are meant for the underpowered portable market20:29
Firebirdbleh, solaris20:29
AStormslowlaris would choke20:29
Macerif you cant fit it in a pocket.. android and mer shouldnt be on it20:30
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MacerAStorm: i use opensolaris and it is great20:30
AStormdebian with tuned set of apps is better20:30
RST38hAStorm: Solaris adepts are saying they have fixed the PCI problem20:30
Macerfor what i do it is better than linux20:30
AStormMacer, 9n a netbook?20:30
RST38hSo it is fast now20:30
Maceron a server and desktop20:30
AStormRST38h, finally!20:30
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MacerRST38h: they seem to have gotten stronger support from sun20:31
Macertheir pkging system is getting better20:31
Macerhardware support is getting better20:31
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Macerand to top it off... it has zfs. that alone makes it better than anything else :)20:32
AStormnot than btrfs20:33
AStormhaha20:33
Macerer20:33
AStormboth are oracle's now20:33
Macerunstable not released unusable in a stable enviroment btrfs? :)20:33
AStormdefine stable environment20:33
Maceruhm20:34
Maceri think that one is self defined20:34
AStormand btrfs is near 1.020:34
AStorm(though not feature complete yet, but the basics are covered)20:34
AStorm(basics include RAID 0 and 1)20:35
MacerBtrfs is under heavy development, and is not suitable for any uses other than benchmarking and review. The Btrfs disk format is not yet finalized, but it will only be changed if a critical bug is found and no workarounds are possible20:36
AStormblah blah20:36
AStormI haven't seen any important bugs recently20:37
Macerlol. sorry buddy but zfs is tested and true20:37
AStormthat is right20:37
AStormbut it doesn't make it better :P20:37
Macersure it does20:37
AStormwhat makes is the raid-z and online fsck20:37
Macer:)20:37
AStorm(the performance otherwise is not that great)20:37
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AStorm(but not lousy either)20:38
Maceri dunno. i get about 300MB/s20:38
AStormon what hardware :P20:38
Macerbut that is on an 8 port raid 520:38
Macer:)20:39
AStormand workload :P20:39
AStormhaha.20:39
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AStormwell, I was able to max my SSD w/ btrfs20:39
AStormbut not with ext4 or zfs or ufs220:39
AStormguess why20:39
Stskeepszfs is more suited for multiple devices really20:40
AStormtrue20:40
AStormit's its aim20:40
ShadowJKI am guessing you don't have a Intel SSD, or a OCZ Vertex20:40
Macerbecause btrfs is great?20:40
ShadowJKThey're about the only non-crap SSD20:40
Macer:)20:40
AStormShadowJK, uhm, not only20:40
AStormbut they are the best20:40
ShadowJKThe rest behave like an extreme case of harddrive, fast sequential speeds, brutally slow seeks20:40
Maceri figured ssd was more about access20:41
Macerthan speed20:41
AStormslow seeks? why?20:41
Macerno. fast seeks20:41
AStormthere's no seek time on flashn20:41
AStormor almost none20:41
ShadowJKMacer, yeah people think that, but it's only the intel and vertex series that actually have fast seeks20:41
AStormhow do you measure seek time on ssd? :P20:41
MacerShadowJK: thought it was due to faulty controllers20:42
AStormthere's no seek20:42
ShadowJKMacer, nah, it's more to it than that20:42
AStormif you're talking random write, then yes, many ssds fail20:42
mgedminrandom write latencies in thousand of milliseconds may not be "seeks", but they suck20:42
AStormthanks to block sizes20:42
AStormand too small cache20:42
mgedminI've got an asus eeepc 900 with two ssd, both are horribly slow20:42
RST38h<get a real laptop>20:43
AStormit has cheap ssd with no cache20:43
Macerwell. i am sure in an actual work env... the faster seeks are awesome20:43
* mgedmin taps his thinkpad t61 on the side20:43
AStormand small block size20:43
mgedminthere's that classical anandtech article about SSDs20:43
RST38hT61.... <well, you know>20:43
mgedminrecommended reading20:43
AStormalso, ext3 is not optimized for ssd20:43
RST38hURL?20:43
mgedminhttp://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=353120:43
AStormfor blocks larger than its cluster size20:43
VDVsxGAN800, android development isn't restricted to java anymore20:44
AStormand it doesn't spread metadata20:44
mgedminext3 + asus eee 900's SSD's ("ASUS PHISON" something or other) + 3 months == dead SSD20:44
MacerVDVsx: lol20:44
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Macerlag? =)20:44
mgedminunreadable blocks where the ext3 journal used to live20:44
RST38hmgedmin: thanks20:44
AStormtrue20:44
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AStormthat's why btrfs -o ssd wins20:44
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AStormit spreads metadata20:44
AStormis copy-on-write20:44
GAN800VDVsx, yeah, but it still sucks.20:45
Maceri was waiting on more bullet points :)20:45
Macerwell... bbl20:45
VDVsxGAN800, sure, but you can now use python, lua, C, C++ at least :P20:45
ShadowJKThe real issue is that SSDs have native sector size of a megabyte or so. Harddrives have 512 byte sectors. So in the worst case if you just want to change 512 bytes on the SSD, the SSD itself will read a megabyte and write back a megabyte. In worst worst case, it will read back, erase original, write new modified megabyte. This slows it down20:46
ShadowJKIf you just write sequentially it's fine and fast :P20:46
MacerVDVsx: and install mer?20:46
Macer:)20:46
GAN800and Maemo still utterly kicks its ass20:46
AStormShadowJK, wrong20:46
AStormyou write it antisequentially20:46
MacerGAN800: but maemo isnt as pretty20:46
AStormthat is, split across as many eraseblocks as possible20:47
Macerwith accel docs20:47
Macerlol20:47
VDVsxMacer, mer is like java *runs anywhere* :P20:47
Macerbbl20:47
Macerhahaha20:47
MacerVDVsx: so they say20:47
ShadowJKAStorm, ah but most all SSDs are optimized for the sequential case, because that's the only thing that stupid reviewers and benchmarkers cared about20:47
AStormthen still20:47
Macergotta go20:47
AStormit won't matter20:47
VDVsxMacer, we can say the same about Mer :P, lol20:47
ShadowJKThe anandtech article is required reading :)20:47
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GAN800Macer, that statement is about as subjective as it gets.20:48
AStormthe whole trick is to not rewrite same block all the time20:49
ShadowJKbtw, it's highly unlikely ext3 or any other fs will gain any meaningful SSD optimizations... Linus basically said SSD manufacturers have to stop being asshats and Get it Right(TM), like Intel did.20:49
GAN800Jaffa, ping?20:49
AStormif the blocks are simply interleaved20:49
AStormit should be fast20:49
AStormsay, every 8K gets to another block20:49
Luke-JrShadowJK: wtf does that mean?20:50
AStormthen you'd know where to place file data to only touch a single block at a time20:50
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, read the anandtech article :P20:50
Luke-Jr20:50
ShadowJKBut basically, Sandisk and other "shut up we're the big corporation here and WE will tell YOU how to work around our piece of shit hardware"-companies said that operating systems must learn how to deal with flash storage efficiently20:51
Luke-Jrmy only problem is lack of a direct MTD interface20:52
ShadowJKwell you wont be getting it on SSDs :)20:53
AStormwhy not20:53
ShadowJKThe best you'll get is trim20:53
AStormsome SATA extended command?20:53
ShadowJKAStorm, because people want them to be bootable in PCs and to act like SATA harddrives?20:53
AStormduhduh20:53
ShadowJKand because the Big Other operating system has no clue about raw flash?20:54
AStormadd a new command20:54
Luke-JrShadowJK: and they can't provide both interfaces?20:54
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, no20:54
AStormto address the flash linearly w/o ftl20:54
AStormsure they can20:54
AStormbut it costs20:54
ShadowJKAStorm, the linear flash makes no sense to you20:54
ShadowJKbecause a stream of random writes will be written linearly to the flash :)20:54
AStormand certain important OSes don't support anything20:54
ShadowJKby the smart firmware20:54
Luke-JrShadowJK: you use either or20:55
AStormno no20:55
AStormyou don't get it20:55
AStormI said an extended command to bypass FTL20:55
Luke-Jrheck, it'd be acceptable to have a replacement firmware20:55
AStormand have blocks in orde20:55
AStormr20:55
Luke-Jrflash that firmware and you get MTD only20:55
AStormmuch like "disable ftl" command20:55
AStormanother to get the block size20:55
ShadowJKAStorm, yeah but you'd have to make a choice to always use either, you couldn't change between the two wihout a complete reformat20:56
AStormand then the OS can work with it20:56
AStormtrue20:56
AStormbut the FS would be flash-based20:56
AStormwith its own update layer20:56
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, only place you'd want it is on the cheap SSDs, but the're too cheap to innovate anyway.. :(20:56
AStormso not vfat20:57
AStorm:P20:57
ShadowJKDude, the cheap SSDs were designed for VFAT :-)20:57
AStormthe problem is... partitioning20:57
Luke-JrShadowJK: why the cheap SSDs only?20:57
AStormbut unless the block is huge, the extended command could accept a range of values20:57
Luke-Jrthe filesystem layer is smarter than FTL20:58
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, because VFAT is in the spec for MMC, SD and such, and cheap SSDs are, internally, basically a big array of MMC/SD chips in raid-0 configuration20:58
Luke-JrAStorm: I think UBD makes partitioning MTD ok?20:58
Luke-JrShadowJK: [12:56:56] <ShadowJK> Luke-Jr, only place you'd want it is on the cheap SSDs, but the're too cheap to innovate anyway.. ☹20:59
Stskeepsinteresting, fremantle home has different views20:59
ShadowJKAnyway... on the cheap SSDs their performance is so predictable/measurable that you can experimentally trivially determine the erase block size and other parameters that matter, and optimize your fs for that21:00
ShadowJKthere's, however, no fs suitable for it... and likely there wont be any either, as newer SSDs wont be as crippled, hopefully.21:01
ShadowJKnilfs2 and LogFS might come close to running nicely21:01
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ShadowJKAnd it would be interesting if someone compared this on maemo with boot from SD, compared ext2/3 vs LogFS, for example :)21:01
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ShadowJKhttp://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2007/video/talks/91.ogg <- this is a nice presentation on LogFS and the author touches on some of the "issues" and structures of flash storage :)21:03
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AStormLuke-Jr, I21:08
Luke-JrAStorm: You21:09
AStormwas talking about the SATA ranged switch21:09
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AStormto disable some blocks from being FTLed21:09
johnsqHi21:09
johnsqslonopotamus: do you need my patches for evtouch?21:09
pupnik_any of you run ethernet over isdn telco cabling?21:10
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AStormactually, copy-on-write is excellent on pure flash21:13
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AStorma good flash controller would do garbage collection from time to time21:16
AStormhave a separate block of NOR flash to store data about pages marked as free21:17
AStormand consolidate21:17
Luke-Jr21:17
Luke-Jrwhy not just free them ASAP?21:17
AStormbecause you can't21:17
AStormthnatg requires rewriting a whole block21:18
AStormwhich is slow21:18
AStormso hide it from the user21:18
AStormdo it on idle21:18
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AStormthis is where the TRIM comes in21:20
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AStormto inform the drive about emptied pages21:20
* Luke-Jr notices this is the same "problem" that originated with CD-RWs21:21
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, oh, yeah, CD-RW is kinda similar :)21:22
ShadowJKThough these days you could actually run ext2 on DVD+RW :P21:22
JaffaGAN800: pong21:23
ShadowJKhm21:23
* ShadowJK wonders how LogFS on DVD+RW would perform :-)21:23
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Luke-Jryou can run ext2 on raw flash too21:23
Luke-Jrbut it's not the best idea21:24
ShadowJKslow :P21:24
Luke-Jrand DVD+RW isn't slow? :þ21:24
ShadowJKsure21:24
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ShadowJKSo if you make a fs that runs fast on DVD+RW, it'll be fast on cheap SSD and on SD/MMC too :)21:26
Luke-Jrexactly21:26
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AStormShadowJK, or btrfs21:27
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AStormbtrfs is copy-on-write, so should be fast21:27
Luke-Jris it?21:27
Luke-Jrto what degree? ☺21:27
Luke-JrI think Subversion would make for an excellent FS21:28
AStormI think this includes metadata21:28
AStormno, it's read-only metadata21:28
Luke-Jr21:28
AStormso you'd lose space21:28
AStormthat's why git can't be used as a fs21:28
Luke-Jr⁇?21:28
AStormunless you garbage collect old metadata21:29
AStorm(and commits)21:29
Luke-Jrwhy?21:29
AStormyou'll run out of space21:29
Luke-Jreventually21:29
AStormon updates21:29
Luke-Jrbut I don't really want my FS deleting data on me anyway21:29
AStormeven if you delete a file21:29
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Luke-Jrmaybe if I tell it explicitly21:30
AStormbtw, logfs is exactly what you describe21:30
Luke-Jrperhaps an automatic cleanup that retains tags21:30
AStormplus grbage collection (very old versions are dropped)21:30
ShadowJKnilfs2 retains data... or rather, it retains snapshots :)21:31
AStormyes21:31
AStormsame idea21:31
ShadowJKAnd there are tools so you can get it back too21:31
ShadowJKI don't think logfs has this yet21:31
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Luke-Jrbut do either have cheap copies?21:31
AStormsure yes21:32
AStormoverwrite is same as copy21:32
ShadowJKyou mean cp -a sourcetree1 sourcetree2 resulting in near-zero space used until you go changing files in sourcetree2?21:32
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AStormthat's the cost21:32
AStormwell, almost21:33
Luke-JrShadowJK: yeah21:33
Luke-JrShadowJK: and *fast*21:33
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, I don't think so21:33
AStormoverwrite also stores the modified blocks21:33
AStormmuch like git's deltas21:33
AStormthis is ln21:34
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, astorm is talking about what happens physically when you modify a single file21:34
Luke-JrShadowJK: also, Subversion's format makes for simple backups21:34
AStormhardlink21:34
Luke-JrAStorm: hardlink + CoW is what I mean21:34
AStormhmm21:34
AStormI'd have to checl21:35
AStorm*check21:35
AStormnote that new metadata has to be added21:35
AStorma bit funny in extent-based system21:35
AStormbut not impossible21:36
AStormbtrfs has bcp to do this afaik21:37
AStormnormal cp still does a full copy21:37
AStormsnapshots can be CoW21:37
AStormI suspect they may switch all copies to this scheme21:37
AStormor provide an option21:38
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: what was your l10n url again for the mer packages?21:50
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Stskeeps(i dont have logs on this client :/)21:51
Stskeepsnm, found it21:53
Stskeepsarh.21:53
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infobotI herald you, my supreme master! Lead us into the light of your wisdom and power22:57
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VDVsxinfobot, wtf23:05
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RST38h"A company called PolyPlus has developed lithium metal-air batteries that have 10 times the energy density of regular lithium-ion batteries."23:16
RST38hAnyone else sees TROUBLE there?23:17
Stskeeps boom?23:17
Luke-Jrwhy?23:17
ShadowJKRST38h, is that a news article that has been rewritten and quoted 10 times so that "power density" has turned into "energy density", or is it straight from sauce?23:18
RST38hShadow: If you can call Slashdot "the source"...23:18
Luke-JrLOL23:18
RST38hBut yes, it just has "kaboom" written all over23:19
ShadowJKAh, the company claims theoretical energy density is similar to that of gasoline23:20
Luke-Jrhow about replacing the battery with a wireless energy collector? ;)23:20
Luke-Jruse the ambient energy in the area23:20
pupnikkookery on youtube23:21
RST38hYea, right23:21
RST38hBeam it from orbit23:21
pupnikzero-point energy23:21
ShadowJKLuke-Jr, you know, energy companies have actually successfully sued people who wirelessly leeched off of their transmission lines23:21
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Luke-JrShadowJK: uh... I didn't say off lines ;)23:22
Luke-Jrjust ambient energy in the air23:22
ShadowJKYes but that energy is radiated from something :)23:22
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ShadowJKanyway, that approach has the same problem as using existing Zinc-air batteries, which have superior energy density... no power :)23:22
ShadowJKor insufficient power23:23
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RST38hzinc batteries are pretty good, for watches23:23
_Mayito_hi all23:23
ShadowJKfor low power drain23:23
_Mayito_someone can help me to flash my nokia n810 please?\23:24
ShadowJKThis is also the thing about Nokia's "ambient energy collection" device... the power it can provide is barely sufficient to keep the phone idling23:24
ShadowJK~flashing23:24
infoboti guess flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware23:24
suihkulokkiShadowJK: I was told someone in .fi dug a coil under a transmission line and used it to power his garden lights23:24
RST38hAmbient energy stuff is mostly fake23:24
ShadowJKsuihkulokki, yeah :-)23:24
RST38hBut wireless power transmission is not23:24
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RST38hsuihkulokki: Sometimes you do not even need a coil23:25
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pupnikhighlighting text in browser is broken for me23:25
pupniksometimes i hilight. sometimes i pan23:25
ShadowJKRST38h, well it's a zero-sum game.. you're leeching off of someone else :-)23:25
pupnikimpossible.23:25
RST38hpupnik: tell us something new =)23:25
RST38hShadow: That I have no personal problem with23:25
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suihkulokkiaccording to the story, they couldn't find a way to sue him, but they guy worked for a company owned by the power grid company which then promptly fired him :P23:26
ShadowJKLike those "kinetic plates" that some supermarket in the UK was going to install in the parking lot to "go green and renewable". Cars and people moving over the kinetic plating generate electricity23:26
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RST38hShadow: Nevertheless, unless you have a really powerful source there is nothing to leech23:26
pupnikRST38h, if device had shoulder buttons, one could be used to toggle pan/hilight23:26
ShadowJKBUT, that energy comes from the people (who in turn get it through this expensive sun -> plant -> animal -> processing -> processing -> processing -> microwave -> food chain), or from gasoline in the case of cars :P23:26
ShadowJKso the supermarket essentially leeches energy from its customers :)23:27
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RST38hpupnik: you can do it with multitoch or limited multitouch23:27
ShadowJKand it's not at all "renewable" or green until everyone is driving on green/renewable energy23:27
pupnikk.  it needs fixing23:27
RST38hpupnik: i.e. holding left bottom screen corner and selecting text with the second finger23:27
ShadowJKfrankly I wish the touchscreen would just emulate a laptop touchpad.. would work fine :P23:27
pupnikhmm23:27
lcukpupnik, the multitouch example i give would allow that - but selecting text would be hard23:28
lcukit should be used on large ui elements really ;)23:28
RST38hShadow: You ever use laptop touchpad for mouse clicks?23:28
ShadowJKand if you hold bottom left screen corner... why not have a button slightly below bottom left screen corner so you don't cover content on the screen :P23:28
lcukShadowJK, because existing devices dont23:28
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lcuktwotouch works23:28
ShadowJKRST38h, yes. And click+drag. Without the physical buttons23:28
RST38hShadow: Because n8x0 do not have such a button23:28
lcukthe bottom corner can theoretically and practically act as a CTRL key modifyer23:28
ShadowJKI can use it fine and I don't even have a laptop, heh23:29
RST38hShadow: You are abnormal then :)23:29
* RST38h never uses touchpads for clicks23:29
ThatOneGuydoes anyone know how I can compile some code on my n770? I keep getting errors like "make: arm-linux-gcc: Command not found"23:29
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ShadowJKthe touchpad click-hold-and-drag tap-sequence on touchpads is easier to accomplish than tap-and-hold on N8x0..23:29
RST38hThat: Maybe you do not have gcc installed? =)23:29
ShadowJKI guess mostly because of lacking sensitivity on the touchscreen :)23:29
lcukThatOneGuy, thar be dragons, but clean off your respositories to only standard nokia ones, then find the SDK repository on maemo.org respositories for your OS23:30
lcukand add that to apt23:30
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_Mayito_someone can help me to flash my nokia n810 please?23:30
pupnikalso need to have your dev filesystem on sd ThatOneGuy23:30
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ThatOneGuypupnik: can I not put it on a usb drive?23:31
pupnik_Mayito_, maemo.org has howto23:31
lcukpupnik, only if no freespace left23:31
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lcukThatOneGuy, no23:31
ThatOneGuylcuk, really? I guess Im stuck using scratchbox...23:32
_Mayito_pupnik: Thank you I've already read it, but still I have some questions23:32
lcuksuch hardships23:32
lcukhaving a whole sdk available23:32
ThatOneGuywell it'd be ok if I could get my kernel module to compile properly23:33
lcukyou oculd probably never get a kernel built on device anyway23:33
lcukeven with an updated device23:33
lcukit needs more than just gcc23:33
lcukand make23:33
ThatOneGuyawe lame23:33
RST38hsuihkulokki,ShadowJK: Here, enjoy: http://hacknmod.com/hack/field-of-fluorescent-tubes-powered-by-ambient-current/23:33
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lcukThatOneGuy, whats lame about it?23:34
lcukand why do you need a new kernel?23:34
ThatOneGuyI dont. I need to compile an external kernel module23:34
pupnik_Mayito_, feel free to ask, man23:34
RST38hEhheheheheheheee23:35
RST38hOk, guys, you will absolutely love it:23:36
RST38h"Android developers can now slip native code into apps written for Android-based devices using Google's new native development kit (NDK)."23:36
pupnik...23:36
_Mayito_pupnik: I decided to flash the OS to the internal memory card, I think there is plenty space to hold the OS and all the software I need, so I just followed the little tutorial up to the partitioning part ... I did even already partitioned my internal flash card23:36
pupnikk23:37
ShadowJKRST38h, but do they get root access? :)23:37
lcukthey will soon23:37
RST38hShadow: No idea, although you are welcome to try23:37
lcukactivex here we come!23:37
_Mayito_pupnik: although, my question is, the little tutorial asks you to format those two new partitions, which I did it23:38
ShadowJKeh don't want to, maemo already gives me access :P23:38
* ShadowJK isn't that keen on fighting with tivo-ized devices23:38
_Mayito_my question is, which partition should I have mounted before the flashing ?23:38
ShadowJKRST38h, yeah that guy is leeching power from the power company :)23:38
RST38hShadow: For artistic purposes, no more no less =)23:39
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pupnik_Mayito_, i dont know23:41
pupniki did not "flash" to my new partition, i copied the filetree23:42
pupnikthen flashed a new bootloader23:43
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pupnik_Mayito_, can you paste the url of the howto you are using, and tell us which step you are at?23:45
ThatOneGuyso... file returns '...version 1 (ARM)..' for the modules that work, but returns '...version 1 (SYSV)..' for the one I've compiled. Anyone know why?23:46
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pupnikheh23:46
pupnikat&t strikes23:46
ThatOneGuyoh no23:47
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pupniki think fanoush compiled some kernels/modules23:48
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ThatOneGuyerr, I don't know who that is23:49
pupniknoob23:52
pupniksorry, just wasting your time - google23:52
ThatOneGuylooks like all the modules he compiled are for 800/81023:54

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