IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2009-05-18

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x29ahm, how would i get curl?00:03
x29asomehow my apt-get doesnt know about too many packages00:03
lcukadd moar repositories00:05
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x29alcuk: which ones?00:07
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mavhcisn't curl built in, just with an odd name?00:10
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x29amavhc: tell me more!00:11
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tank-manx29a, have you enabled the extras repo?00:23
x29ayes00:23
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mavhcmaemo-mini-curl perhaps00:34
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x29amavhc: hm, true, but it doesnt support what i need, bummer00:51
x29ain principle itd be all fine if openvpn was more up2date00:51
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pupnik_can ext3 storee files bigger than 1.2GB?00:59
pupnik_my vmware image download died at 1.2GB twice00:59
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mikkov_pupnik_: yes it can01:06
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pupnik_k01:06
pupnik_3rd attempt01:06
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jaemdo we have Mono support for Maemo, or do I have to wait for Mer?01:31
jaemalso, does it run well enough to be useful?01:31
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yanderehttp://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=287709&postcount=119    -- hahahahaha!!!!!!!01:42
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mavhcmanaged code + 128MB ram = fail02:06
pupnik_hohoho02:06
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jaemmavhc: that's kind of what I figured02:13
jaemhuh... some crazy physicists figure they can make something to see through a virtual hole in the wall, with cloaking technology02:15
jaemhttp://arxiv.org/abs/0905.148402:15
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GeneralAntillesjaem, sipphone.com is a better VoIP solution if you don't have a lot of other people using Skype.02:25
GeneralAntillesOpen standards.02:25
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jaemGeneralAntilles: I fully agree on the Open Standards part, but I do have a bunch of Skype contacts, and although some of them would be sympathetic to that point, their contacts may not02:26
jaemdoes sipphone.com have cheap calling to real phones?02:26
GAN800jaem, marginally cheaper than Skype.02:29
GAN800You can use rtcomm which is a big plus.02:29
jaemyeah, that's what I was thinking02:29
jaemwhen you say cheaper, are you referring to per-minute billing, or do they have subscriptions, too?02:30
GAN800Per-minute02:30
jaemdarn02:30
jaemthat's out, then02:30
GAN800Don't think they have subscriptions but I'm not sure.02:30
jaemI already pay too much for my cell, and I can only afford Skype as well because of the subscriptions02:30
GAN800You use that many minutes?02:31
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jaemI use enough on average that it's still significantly cheaper02:31
GAN800Ah02:31
jaembut nowhere near the 10,000 minute/month limit02:31
jaemwhat I had thought of doing was setting one of the unlimited calling numbers on my cell (plan feature) to my dorm landline, and then routing calls through Skype02:32
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jaembut I don't have the PSTN hardware, and I couldn't find a free Skype gateway02:32
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jaem(in software, that is)02:33
jaemlol @ http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2072/3531235979_c1508edcf8_o.png02:33
* jaem is rebooting, and will be back after these messages02:34
jaemMessage from our sponsors: System is going down for reboot NOW02:35
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jaemgah - my touchpad is acting up02:44
jaemconveniently, this laptop is technically on loan, so if it is actually borked, I won't have to pay for a replacement02:45
jaemI've been discussing Todo apps over at #tasque on irc.gnome.org... I haven't found anything yet that I like02:47
jaemDoneIt for maemo seems promising02:47
jaembut DoneIt isn't Done02:47
kfxI've been banging my head against finding useful groupware that can sync with maemo apps02:47
kfxalmost got it working with funambol+citadel and the pimlico apps02:48
kfx...but not reliably or well :/02:48
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jaemhrm02:48
jaemPimlico is pretty barebones...]02:48
jaemotherwise it would be okay02:48
jaembut the calendar app can't even do repeating events :S02:49
jaemis development on Pimlico still happening?02:49
kfxno idea02:49
kfxI can't find a whole lot that's been worked on in a year or two02:49
kfxI'd use gpe if it integrated at all with anything else on the device02:50
jaemsame here02:50
jaembut it just doesn't02:50
kfxon the other hand, pimlico stuff is GPL02:50
jaemthere are so many PIM suites out there, and aside from a few desktop-oriented suites, and a few individual programs, everything seems half-finished, abandoned, or just not what I'm looking for02:51
jaemkfx: true, but I'm not up to that atm02:51
kfxjaem: neither am I but I'm getting there fast02:51
jaemI learned coding on useless languages of the MS variety, and haven't had nearly enough experience with anything else to do much on Linux yet02:52
kfxI'll probably wrench calendar source out of jpilot and cram it into dates02:52
jaemspeaking of, I need to get some studying done in that area ;)02:52
kfxthen make the sync backend speak something more modern, like ical 2.002:52
jaemlol02:52
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torkianohello, I get this error when ./configure:02:55
jaem_afk-ishkfx: you should use bogobogosort in it somewhere02:55
torkianoMakefile.am:6: HAVE_GNOME_DOC_UTILS does not appear in AM_CONDITIONAL02:55
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jaem_afk-ishkfx: the author of that algorithm said a 7-element array didn't finish sorting when he left it overnight02:55
jaem_afk-ishXD02:55
jaem_afk-ishtorkiano: which app?02:55
torkianojaem_afk-ish, is a personal app02:56
jaem_afk-ishkfx: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bogobogosort.html02:56
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jaem_afk-ishtorkiano: I'm not the one to ask, sorry02:57
torkianojaem_afk-ish, no problem02:57
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kfxjaem_N810: if I did that then I'd more likely parallelize it and run it on the university cluster03:06
kfx...which is why I don't code a lot these days.03:06
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pupnik_talk is cheap03:15
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jaem_N810kfx: I don't know about your uni, but I don't think mine would give me time on one of their clusters to run recursive bogosort03:21
jaem_N810lol03:21
jaem_N810apparently there are long waits and short usage times as it is03:22
jaem_N810pupnik_: except on cell phones in Canada03:22
pupnik_ok03:23
pupnik_o/03:23
pupnik_some talk isn't cheap03:23
kfxjaem_N810: oh, they'd get cranky about it, but I run the cluster03:24
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GAN800I don't know why Intel has to be evil by bringing the x86 blight to mobile devicres.03:26
GAN800s/cres/ces/03:27
infobotGAN800 meant: I don't know why Intel has to be evil by bringing the x86 blight to mobile devices.03:27
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samueldrs/a/03:28
samueldrs/a//03:28
infobotsamueldr meant: s//03:28
samueldrheyhey, nice03:28
jaem_N810nice03:28
samueldrs/*/bacon/03:28
kkrustyhello, does anyone know a good working application for rememberthemilk or any other task management site?03:28
jaem_N810that has advantages ;)03:28
kkrustyzutun doesnt install and Doneit doesnt run03:29
jaem_N810now we need *distributed* recursive bogosort03:29
kkrustyanyone?03:30
jaem_N810so that people all over the world can help us reach the ultimate goal of sorting a 100-element array before the universe ends03:30
jaem_N810okay, that number was pulled out of thin air, but the time complexity of bogobogosort is painful03:30
samueldrif we're lucky, the first iteration will be sorted03:30
jaem_N810kkrusty: DoneIt is in its early stages03:32
jaem_N810hence it being in extras-devel03:32
jaem_N810aside from those two, I think there is an app that allows task entry only on the Garage, but I can't think of the name03:32
jaem_N810I'd hold out for DoneIt03:33
kkrustyjaem_N810: okay. I'll hold out for it then03:33
kkrustyjaem_N810: by task entry you mean that you cant view the tasks?03:34
kkrustyjaem_N810: uh nevermind. Thanks for answering my question03:35
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ShadowJKhm, when did ctrl-l stop working in xchat in maemo...03:53
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jaem_N810is Maemo Garage built from scratch, or running a prexisting engine of some sort?03:55
jaem_N810it looks SF.net-ish03:55
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GAN8001jaem_N810, GForge03:59
GAN8001and it's maemo.org Garage. :P03:59
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derfhttp://blogs.sun.com/CoreJavaTechTips/entry/superduper_slow_jar04:04
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b-manso far everything is working fine, allthough yum is driving me crazy because i haven't figured out how to add repos to /etc/yum.repos.d/ :P04:12
b-manit's a bit complicated - but i'll figure it out :)04:13
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Maceranybody around?07:07
Macerwas wondering if anybody here used samba much?07:07
ShadowJKnot much..07:08
Macerhm. was going to try to set it up as a pdc and see about getting multiple operating systems to use it for auth etc07:10
slonopotamusmooorning07:10
ShadowJKah I haven't used any auth stuff at all07:12
ShadowJKjust moving files07:12
Macerheh07:12
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luke-jrmeh07:22
luke-jrI left my USB cable in the car I think07:23
luke-jrguess 2.6.30 will wait07:23
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slonopotamusluke-jr, hi, luke07:31
luke-jrhi07:31
slonopotamusluke-jr, i think first version of open-wlan-cal is ready :)07:32
luke-jrthat's nice07:32
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ShadowJKdid you get any replies to the keyboard issue with new kernel?07:41
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Macerhuh?07:49
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ara_ara_ufufu|woHey does anyone know how can I run a program on start up on the maemo n810?07:54
ara_ara_ufufu|woI've tried creating rc.local under /etc/init.d, and ran update-rc.d rc.local defaults, but it doesn't seem to work =/07:55
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luke-jrShadowJK: just a "same here"08:04
ShadowJKah :/08:05
slonopotamusluke-jr, wanna be my first tester? :P08:05
luke-jrno08:05
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Meiz_n810My n810 broke itself while i was sleeping08:36
Stskeepshmm?08:38
RST38hgadget suicide?08:38
robinkMy N810 is just about out of juice.08:40
Meiz_n810i just plugged charger in, left it on my desk, in the morning it has two small cracks in topright corner08:40
Meiz_n810but i must be really lucky because the screen is still working08:41
robinkI forgot my charger.  I'm in Colorado.08:41
StskeepsMeiz_n810: earthquake? :P08:41
Meiz_n810heh, no such thing in finland :P08:42
Stskeepseven .dk has them :P08:42
Meiz_n810i really wonder what broke the screen...08:42
Meiz_n810but cracks are inside, right below the touch level08:43
Stskeepsgood question08:43
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Stskeepsi guess a photo would be more illustrative08:43
Meiz_n810oh, i'm so happy it's still working :)08:43
Meiz_n810yup, i will take photo when i get home08:44
Meiz_n810school :/08:44
RST38hMeiz: Family members?08:44
Meiz_n810i don't thinks so08:45
RST38hDunno, that would be my first guess08:46
thuxmorning08:46
thuxMeiz_n810: hope you can get new screen08:47
Meiz_n810yeah, lets see if warranty covers those cracks :P08:48
thuxonce one three years old throw my ipaq to the floor and broke it08:49
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thuxdevice with large screen breaks easily08:49
thuxeven in pocket if they touch keys or something08:50
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RST38hdo not carry it in the sam epocket with keys.08:55
thuxi red about some .fi student who got 30.000e via iphone app store08:56
thuxhe said that iphone apps is much easier to do than symbian app is it true?08:57
Stskeepssymbian development is similar to poking your eyes out, so i guess anything's better..08:57
Stskeeps:P08:57
thuxhehe08:58
Macerhaha08:58
thuxalso apple takes apps from private persons08:58
Macerthey take apps from private persons? :)08:59
thuxnokia doesn't he said08:59
thuxwith nokia you had to have company08:59
Macerlike a job that takes all things made by employees as their own "proprietary" stuff?08:59
Maceri hate it when tv shows get military things wrong09:00
thuxboth return 70% to dev09:00
Macerlike a marine officer with a giant shiny rank insignia on his cover09:00
* RST38h heardabout people winning millions in lottery09:01
thuxthis same guy also complaint that n5800 doesn't have 3d accel09:01
thuxand his games need that09:02
RST38hcreating a company isn't a big deal09:02
thuxin .fi it is09:02
liricanola2 beta from the repos isn't working well for me (it hangs while playing an mp3). where should I find (in which repos) a stable version maybe?09:03
thuxyou have to pay taxes and such09:03
RST38hFew hundred bucks and you have got a nice Delaware-registered company09:03
RST38hthux: Who cares about .fi? Nokia just wants a company09:03
Macerlol09:04
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RST38hliri: run canola-cleanup then reinstall09:04
thuxRST38h: but if you are here and spend your money here09:04
RST38hthux: Having a company has absolutely no relation to where you spend money09:04
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thuxit it possible to use off-shore company but costly for student09:04
liriRST38h: how do I re-install it? (just to remove, then install or is there a quicker way?)09:05
RST38hthux: So, you have got yourself an international company09:05
RST38hthux: As I said, registration related stuff is just a few hundred bucks09:05
RST38hliri: You install it with app manager (make sure you remove extras-devel from the list)09:05
thuxRST38h: no not me, but know people who have them in jersey or gibraltar09:05
RST38hliri: You remove it with canola-cleanup09:05
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RST38hthux: Company that isn't making money costs you next to nothing09:06
RST38hthux: So, register one wherever it is cheap and does not incur annual costs, then present yourself to Nokia as a company09:06
liriRST38h: ok. doesn't look like I have that canola-cleanup script09:06
RST38hliri: Extras.09:06
liriRST38h: I have canola, canolad and canola-thumbnailer09:07
liriRST38h: a sec09:07
thuxRST38h: but you need offshore bank accounts and such and these app developers try to make money09:07
liriRST38h: I have extras enabled09:08
RST38hthux: No.09:09
RST38hthux: Although you can probably just open one in a US bank, it won't cost you09:09
thuxok that i didn't know09:09
thuxjust heard about gibraltar swizz and jersey banks09:10
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RST38hYou are talking tax evasion09:14
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RST38hYou are not going to evade taxes. You just want a company.09:14
liriRST38h: that canola-cleanup isn't found09:15
RST38hAnyways, I am not sure why you would even NEED to get yourself into Nokia Store09:15
RST38hDo you think it will make your application sell more?09:15
thuxi just red the story from newspaper and it said so09:17
thuxthat's why asked why is iphone game developing easier than symbian?09:17
thuxalso wondering why nokia doesn't use 3d accel?09:18
locutus'licensing issues'09:18
thuxok so writing is as hard in both cases?09:19
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RST38hthux: The newspaper lied09:20
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RST38hhttp://gadgetblips.dailyradar.com/story/the_life_of_an_iphone_app_nasty_brutish_and_short/09:21
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liriok I just un-installed canola from the app manager (it was canola2-beta-2.0.011 or something)09:22
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RST38hhttp://www.macworld.co.uk/ipod-itunes/news/index.cfm?RSS&NewsID=2217709:22
RST38hhttp://techblips.dailyradar.com/story/iphone_app_developers_threaten_to_sue_apple_over_late/09:23
RST38hOff to work =)09:23
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thuxRST38h: the story was about this software http://macmaa.com/2009/05/17/suomalainenkin-iphone-kehittaja-voi-tienata-hyvin/09:28
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ShadowJK<thux> you have to pay taxes and such09:39
ShadowJKI think you can setup a Tmi with minimal in fees and you don't pay taxes unless you make more than 1000E profit, I think...09:39
ShadowJKit was something like that :)09:39
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thuxShadowJK: yes :) but this pajazzo guy made 30.000e09:41
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thuxbut software money is theoretical to me cause i don't write #include <iostream> :) just envy how others get rich by making software09:44
ShadowJKI hope nokia has woken up to branding now09:46
ShadowJKlike, how many would know that menu->tools->catalog takes you to something shop-like?09:47
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thuxShadowJK: true, not many i suppose09:51
ShadowJKnevermind that "What's hot" and "What's new" in it are empty...09:52
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liriRST38h: thanks, installing canola-cleanup, executing it and re-installing canola2 seems to work, it's playing my music now09:53
liriRST38h: though weird enough, I saw that cleanup script removing like dozen of packages which seem not really related like irreco and others09:53
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rm_youjohnx: havent seen you on all day09:55
thuxnoticed in symbian that there is many clients which at least theorically can do skype, like fring and iskoot and was it implus, but for linux it is only skype which do skype?09:56
ShadowJKheh, Games category is empty too09:57
ShadowJKthere's fring for N810 too... I heard it sucks :P09:57
ShadowJKso like.. over half of the categories in "Catalog" were empty10:00
ShadowJKwhich is just silly, because I'm sure they could find some crap to put there10:00
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ShadowJKhm, it's marginally better through the wap browser (which is in media->services and nowhere near any internet-related items in the menu).. All the download bookmarks are empty and missing, of course, but there's a link to nokia which does have a download section with slightly more stuff...10:06
ShadowJKI remember finding this place with many many things, but I can't figure out where that was in the menus :)10:06
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ShadowJKOh there's a default link in the "proper" web browser too, to a third shop/download place, again with a handful apps :-)10:07
thuxShadowJK: what phone you have or is it same in all s60s?10:11
ShadowJKE7010:11
ShadowJKand I bet it's different for every damn phone :)10:11
thuxhehe10:12
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* Stskeeps yawns10:22
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Stskeepsandre_k: 3635 is actually fixed and 4560 is a cause of it being open sourced :)11:23
andre_k3635 is already fixed?!11:24
Stskeepsyes, it is11:24
Stskeepsalarmd is in beta11:24
andre_kgreat.11:24
andre_kseems like nokia didn't realize themselves :-P11:24
Stskeepsi'm just complaining cos they didn't go the whole way :)11:24
andre_kokay. yeah, i see.11:25
andre_knice11:25
Stskeeps(see http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/a/alarmd/ )11:25
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andre_kuh uh uh :)11:25
* RST38h moos slightly11:26
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suihkulokkiapt-get moo11:33
Meiz_n810aptitude moo11:35
Meiz_n810aptitude -v moo11:35
Meiz_n810and so on11:35
Meiz_n810:)11:35
RST38hmount /mnt/moo11:36
RST38hunmount /mnt/moo11:36
RST38hfsck /mnt/moo11:36
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lcukRST38h, if i mount daisy she goes moo12:05
RST38hUmgh.12:08
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Macercan somene tell me a comcast dns?12:18
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thuxis frozen bubble for maemo?12:25
RST38hthere are versions for different systems12:25
RST38hincluding one for maemo12:25
thuxcool, just found frozen bubble for symbian12:26
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crashanddieif I want to buy a new battery for my n810, where should I go?12:31
crashanddieebay seems a bit dodgy, just dash out £20 for a genuine Nokia battery?12:31
lcukyes12:35
lcukand get a new case while you are at it :p12:35
crashanddiewhat, the traveling poach?12:35
lcukyeah :D12:35
lcuki really like your idea btw12:35
crashanddiedoes Nokia actually sell a "reckless pack" ?12:35
lcukits very different :)12:35
crashanddiecharger + battery + stylus + poach?12:36
lcukoh, i dunno about all that12:36
crashanddiewould be pretty handy :D12:36
lcukindeed it would12:36
lcukbut the number of people who lose all that and need it replacing at the same time can be counted on one (broken) finger12:37
* lcuk looks @ u12:37
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Macerwow12:50
Macernexenta has me about to just start ripping hair out by the roots12:50
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RST38h"Don't get mad. Get even."12:53
MyrttiRST38h: that would leave a trail of carnage behind me12:54
RST38hMyrtti: As long as the last mile is untraceable you are ok =)12:55
lcukand providing you dont leave your id behind12:55
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Macerahhhhh!!12:58
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Macerfinally. fixed it13:02
Macerwhat a bastard :)13:02
floriangood morning13:05
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lbtdneary: hi...13:22
StskeepsMacer: how come?13:22
lbtdid you see my WikiTalk email?13:23
dnearyhi lbt13:25
dnearyYeah - I'm going to be jumping into that thread this morning13:25
dnearylbt: Nice idea13:25
dnearyI would be wary of things like navigation - where do new pages get linked from? Will we get a lot of new pages?13:26
lbtOh, it has the potential to create a real mess!13:26
dnearyWe'd also need to be aware of editing issues - how to deal with duplicates? Merge articles? Indicate that an article had already been wikified?13:26
lbtyes... I mentioned some of those problems13:26
lbtand there are more13:26
dnearyindeed13:26
lbtOTOH I think it may motivate the sifting13:27
lbtand things like automating some tags13:27
lbtand strongly suggesting a process13:27
lbtshould help13:27
lbteg 'forcing' a search before allowing a page to be auto-made13:28
lbtit's a balance13:28
lbtheh - strongly driven by my distaste for forums as an information store!!13:28
JaffaDitto13:29
* lbt wonders if he should approach IBM to patent the idea...13:32
lcukforums are good for testing and feedback and perhaps the "wikify me" button shouldnt actually make a wiki entry, but should flag a post as potential, if we have an interface to list them they can be organised as required13:38
JaffaSounds good13:39
JaffaThe flag could be a "wikiteam" tag13:39
lcukalso, people happy with forum syntax arent always happy with wiki syntax13:39
lcuk(like me, i can write a simple post, but dont know the first thing about wiki organisation or special things required or layout etc, and tbh dont ever want to have to know13:40
* lcuk has enough tihngso n his plate13:40
lcukjaffa, sounds simple enough, but would users know to tag something with that13:42
lcukor will this be a button which behyind the scenes set it (simplest really?)13:43
Jaffalcuk: I was imagining the latter - but I've not been following lbt's comments too closely13:44
Macera marine caught in the middle of a family fued in a hillbilly romeo and juliet13:44
Macerlol13:44
Macerthat damn hollywood can come up with anything!13:44
lcukjaffa, ditto, but i came across something over the weekend which seems to fit the bill between something that should be wikified but my fear of the wiki kicked in13:45
* lbt has an all-singing proposal.... everything said here makes sense insofar as it's all in the same direction13:45
lcukgood lbt :)13:45
RST38hmacer: what is the body count so far?13:45
lbtat some point we stop refining/automating it13:45
lcukawww lbt, but that takes time away from our important pontification13:46
lbtadding wikiteam tags is a good start thoug13:46
lbtI would say that I was thinking of a thread-based approach13:46
lbtwhere the entire thread was dumped into a page13:46
lcukseems reasonanle13:46
lbtand then slashed back ruthlessly13:47
lbtthat's actually *really hard* to do today (AFAIK)13:47
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lbtbbl8r13:48
Macerone brother/uncle13:50
Macer:)13:51
Macerah well. screw this i'm going to sleep. i was trying to set up ldap in nexenta but it is being a real hair puller13:51
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aquatixMacer: nn13:59
pupnikit's interesting the wide-ranging things ppl want to do with tabletsw14:01
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RST38hpupnik: Just indicates that what people really need is a StarTrek PADD14:05
RST38hThat has minimum quirks and "just works" (see iPhone)14:05
pupnikto understand iphone, think of pop music stars14:06
pupnikyou solidly hit a lowest-common denominator.  some luck involved.  mostly marketing.   and then you get a feedback cycle in popularity.14:06
RST38hSomehow, I do not think that iPhone qualifies for this theory14:07
pupnikyes, i could be wrong on this14:07
RST38hFunny think is, I do not really know what would qualify for this theory. Feature phones?14:09
RST38hActually, Samsung+LG in general, and netbooks as a segment14:09
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pupnikdon't you think some people bought iphones on the 'popularity' and 'coolness' factor?14:10
pupniklogical-and14:10
RST38hI think most people bought iphones based on hype that was blown out of proportion long BEFORE iPhone went on sale14:11
RST38hBut, as we are talking of Steve Jobs with his unique powers to bend reality over, no reasonable theories have to apply here14:12
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pupnikdid you like the NeXT RST38h ?14:12
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RST38hYea, NeXT was cool14:13
* RST38h got to use it extensively14:14
pupniki persuaded my employer to buy one,  but i didn't deliver on the promised software... so argh.14:15
pupnikwanted to use the dsp for accelerated gene-homology searches14:15
pupnikback in the day14:15
pupnikthey had a nice fractal browser running on the dsp14:15
RST38hUsing NeXT for anything custom wasn't a good idea, it was more or less like a standard Mac14:16
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Stskeeps'lo jeremiah14:19
jeremiahHey Stskeeps!14:19
jeremiahHow are ya?14:19
jeremiahNice weather in our part of the world eh?14:19
Stskeepscloudy outside atm :P14:20
jeremiahHere it is pretty sunny.14:20
jeremiah:P14:20
pupnikRST38h: on te contrary, i knew friends who became experts in ObjC and created custom software for major telecoms on NeXT and later NeXTStep14:20
jeremiahNeXT was the bomb.14:20
jeremiahWay ahead of its time14:20
RST38hpupnik: Yes, but you said you wanted low level access to DSP?14:20
RST38hjeremiah: So faw Symbian14:21
RST38hs/faw/was14:21
* RST38h cackles evilly14:21
aquatixepoc ruled14:21
rmtWie würde man sagen, "Next Run", in Deutsch? .. Where run is a date-triggered event?14:21
pupnikk rtue14:23
jeremiahgengetopt? There is a library in maemo called gengetopt?14:23
pupnik'naechste ausfuehrung'14:23
pupniki think14:23
pupnikthought it's ambiguous14:23
pupnikausfuehrung can also be a product launch14:23
pupnikor rather product run14:24
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sanjay6976hi14:26
lcukhi sanjay6976 \o14:27
sanjay6976applications of  which  version of maemo sdk  is supported by nokia N81014:27
lcukdiablo 4.114:27
sanjay6976lcuk:hi14:27
sanjay6976 can i put Qt applications over this14:28
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lcukqt is not yet officially supported, but people have had good results using the qt framework to create apps, see lbt's shopper14:29
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rmtpupnik, In this case, it sends an email.. thanks.14:30
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sanjay6976k thanks i will check14:31
pupniknote ae = umlaut A and ue = umlaut U14:31
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VDVsxsanjay6976, http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4Hildon14:32
VDVsxforum nokia also have some qt for maemo docs14:32
sanjay6976VDVsx: thanks i will check the link14:33
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chxOh wow qt4 on the maemo? nice.14:54
Stskeepsold news :)14:55
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aspectis there a way to get os2008 to be verbose on boot?15:05
jeremiahaspect: There should be, and I should know it, but I don't.15:06
jeremiahSome one here will know though.15:06
aspectI have a recurring problem where it sits on the nokia screen with the blue bar at 100% for indeterminate lengths of time, apparently related to trouble reading the vfat on an mmc .. would be nice to have some indication of what's going on15:06
jeremiahaspect: Does it boot?15:06
jeremiahCan you read the logs?15:06
aspectnope, just sits there until I get impatient and remove the battery15:07
aspectI didn't think any useful logs would be kept persistently in that instance15:07
jeremiahYeah, not sure they would be.15:07
jeremiahSo you cannot boot at all?15:08
jeremiahYou may need to re-flash you OS.15:08
aspectonce I remove the sd card, it boots fine15:08
jeremiahaspect: Ah, okay.15:08
jeremiahGood15:08
pupnikthe samsung cheapo mp3 players now use linux + sdl15:08
pupniklove how the GPL forces them to disclose that15:09
aspectand putting the sd card in my laptop and fsck'ing has fixed it in the past .. but it keeps reocurring15:09
lcuknew card?15:09
aquatixand using another card?15:09
aspectold card15:09
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aspectquite old; it came with my 2nd hand n800 about 6 months ago15:09
lcuktry it with a different card15:10
lcukif that works, throw away the old one and move on15:10
lcukyou have already identified the problem lol15:10
aspectrighto15:10
jeremiahlcuk: Do those flash cards die often?15:10
jeremiahI haven't had that yet happen to me.15:11
aspectthe laptop hasn't had any issues reading the card, and someone else mentioned a vfat related issue, so I thought it might be that15:11
jeremiahBut I don't use a lot of them.15:11
jeremiahAnd, your original question aspect was getting boot info from the maemo. Does anyone know how to turn off the Nokia boot image so one can see dmesg info?15:12
* aspect ordered a new card ~3 weeks ago but the damn retailer screwed up delivery so it's not here yet15:12
RST38hjeremiah: they do die every now and then15:13
RST38hjeremiah: but you usually do not see it as the card remaps its blocks internally to avoid immediate FAIL15:13
jeremiahRST38h: Aha. Kinda clever. :)15:13
* aquatix should get a 32GB microsd15:14
aquatixthat'd be... spacy15:14
aspect8GB is still the decent price point here .. fortunately the n800 can take 2 :)15:15
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aquatixhm, can't seem to find a 32GB microsd one15:16
* aquatix has 8GB already15:16
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aspectright, just retested: laptop can read the sd card without issues, but even after fsck'ing the nit has the same boot problem: is this an indication of a problem with the card that the laptop's tolerant to but not the nit?15:20
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aquatixmight be15:22
aquatixmaybe just a matter of the laptop having more power for the reader15:23
aquatixyou don't have another SD card to test with?15:23
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aspectmakes sense15:23
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aspectonly one other, but this card went from problematic to fine after a reformat previously so I thought it might be on the fs level.  Given how it's behaving now I guess not15:24
aspect(the other's been working fine throughout)15:25
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jeremiahping khertan15:26
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RST38haspect: do you use it with an sd size convertor in the tablet?15:26
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aspectRST38h: yes ... I just chucked it in the external mini slot and we're booted ... I was having problems in the external slot before reformatting though15:28
RST38hall right15:29
aspectI also use the converter to mount the card in the laptop, if that makes any difference15:29
RST38hthen 70% probability that it is the converter15:30
RST38hN810 is for some reason very sensitive to the converter type15:30
aspecthmm15:31
aspectit's an n800, and that convertor has been used with the other card without issue since I've had the tablet15:31
aquatixthe card itself is a minisd? or microsd?15:31
aspectmini15:31
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aspectok, it's fine if I swap the cards around: 128Mb in the adapter, 1Gb straight on the external slot15:33
pupnikmusic is sharing of the human experience15:33
pupniksharing music is holy15:33
aquatixaspect: odd, but great :)15:33
aquatixpupnik: *grin*15:33
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aspectcome to think of it, the problem with the 1Gb card in the external slot before was different: it would boot but not read it, suggesting the fs issue mentioned before.  I guess the 1Gb card + convertor is bad news here15:34
pupnikany maemo people who want to hear great speakers and coming through Frankfurt germany, should really stop by15:34
pupnikhttp://www.vmpseurope.com/RM2.htm15:35
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pupnikanybody want to finish the fullspeed SNES emu port?16:00
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liriis the flite (voice synthesis) package available in the repos or do I need to enable the extras chinook repo to get it?16:45
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pupnik15:52 <@Geronimo> pupnik: love yourself16:54
pupnik15:53 <@pupnik> best advice ever16:54
pupnik15:53 <@pupnik> thanks16:54
aquatix:)16:56
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StsN800jesus h christ a bad hailstorm17:21
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macmaN6789howdy17:36
macmaN6789anyone here that's running any of the full linux distros on their tablet17:38
macmaN6789with Xorg17:38
macmaN6789I'm trying to find out if the Virtual keyword would work in Display17:38
macmaN6789slonopotamus with gentoo perhaps?17:41
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slonopotamusmacmaN6789, i use florence (http://florence.sf.net). it has minor quirks but pretty usable in general17:42
macmaN6789was that an autoreply17:44
macmaN6789slonopotamus: test17:44
macmaN6789or did you read "virtual keyboard"17:45
macmaN6789:)17:45
slonopotamusmacmaN6789, i use florence (http://florence.sf.net). it has minor quirks but pretty usable in general17:45
macmaN6789ah ok, autoreply17:45
slonopotamus:D17:45
andrewfblackHello17:45
slonopotamusmacmaN6789, hello :)17:45
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macmaN6789privet marat17:46
macmaN6789so.. any thoughts17:47
slonopotamusflorence works :)17:47
macmaN6789lol I'm not talking about the keyboard..17:48
slonopotamus<macmaN6789> I'm trying to find out if the Virtual keyword would work in Display17:48
macmaN6789yeah17:48
macmaN6789Virtual xdim ydim17:49
macmaN6789This optional entry specifies the virtual screen resolution to be used. xdim must be a multiple of either 8 or 16 for most17:49
macmaN6789drivers, and a multiple of 32 when running in monochrome mode. The given value will be rounded down if this is not the case.17:49
macmaN6789Video modes which are too large for the specified virtual size will be rejected. If this entry is not present, the virtual17:49
macmaN6789screen resolution will be set to accommodate all the valid video modes given in the Modes entry. Some drivers/hardware combi-17:49
macmaN6789nations do not support virtual screens. Refer to the appropriate driver-specific documentation for details.17:49
macmaN6789can I get a panning display in the tablet17:49
slonopotamusdunno, haven't tried17:49
slonopotamusbrb, need to change machine17:49
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Bobbesorry for the off-topic here17:56
BobbeBut I just can't pronounce "Maemo" lol17:56
lopzhola17:56
Bobbehola17:57
Bobbehttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=28835717:57
Bobbethe guy who actually came up with the name said this: (sorry for flooding)17:58
Bobbemah as the beginning of my17:58
Bobbeeh as the "e" in "pet"17:58
Bobbemo as in Monica, but only pronouncing the M and the O.17:58
BobbeIf anybody can pronounce this and record into a sound file I would be immensely grateful. I know it's fairly inconsequential, but it's been bugging me endlessly since I read the post =)17:59
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ElPolloHey all. Simple question (I hope). How can I use a seperate partition as /home in Diablo? Simply adding it to the fstab (like I would to on any linux distro) does not seem to work.18:01
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robtaylorBobbe: i don't think there's a prescribed way to pronounce it - it came from running pwgen :)18:04
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Myrttirobtaylor: the way Bobbe described it though is a way a Finn would pronounce it ;-)18:05
slonopotamusi'm back18:05
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robtaylorMyrtti: it is indeed :)18:05
Bobberobtaylor, I'm aware. There was a thread about this in the forum, and the guy who actually came up with the name (and used it thoroughly for something else before it became Maemo, for whose name he did have a pronunciation) posted and said that's how he meant it to be pronounced18:05
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BobbeMyrtti, true. I put the WinXP speech synthesizer to say it and it came up with "MY-mou"18:05
robtaylorBobbe: Jesus Climent?18:06
Bobbeyeap18:06
Robot101he was a wannabe finn the whole time he was in .fi :)18:06
Robot101getting up at 6:30am, lunch at 11am, sauna every day :)18:06
Bobbelol18:06
MyrttiOY! What's wrong in being a Finn ;-)18:07
Bobbehttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=287259#post28725918:07
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Robot101Myrtti: poor taste in beer? :)18:07
BobbeThe land where people can buy coke from a vending machine using their cell phones18:07
Bobbe(and it's not japan lol)18:07
BobbeEr... I mean the dring18:08
Bobbe*drink18:08
MyrttiRobot101: Finnish beer is bad anyway, it's the cheapest way of getting drunk, but nobody in their right mind drinks it for enjoyment anyway18:08
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* Myrtti prefers ciders though18:08
Myrtti(or English ale)18:08
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RST38hJust one Maemo job vacancy left!18:17
GAN800I'm not convinced by WikiTalk18:17
RST38h(btw, what does a shopping cart doing at that job vacancies page? =))18:18
GAN800Perhaps, mostly, because I'm convinced it's going to create a lot of work for me. :P18:18
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GAN800Bobbe, look up Quim's LinuxTag keynote on archive.org18:19
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RST38his WikiTalk some automated way to turn forum threads into Wikis or what?18:20
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GAN800RST38h, yes.18:29
GAN800I have doubts about it, though.18:30
andrewfblackGAN800: You always need more work18:30
GAN800Spam seems likely.18:30
GAN800andrewfblack, not now that I'm actually working. :P18:30
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cosmofinnish beers are not that bad.. try some american ones18:35
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GAN800phonet in oFono. Gotta be RX-7118:46
Corsac?18:49
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Corsacphonet?18:49
GAN800GSM driver18:49
Corsacok18:49
GAN800Mentioned in the Fremantle kernel in a number of places.18:50
Corsacso rx71 may have a gsm stack in the end?18:50
Corsac(i thought it would have only 3G)18:50
GAN800Don't confuse RX-51 and RX-7118:52
Corsacoh.18:52
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Corsacwhat's rx-71 then?18:52
GAN800Something after RX-5118:53
GAN800Disabling the stylus keyboards seems to have cleared up some of the enter problems.18:57
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GAN800erm, why does everybody seem to think oFono is a platform?18:58
Stskeepsit is technically a platform18:58
Stskeepsor a framework18:58
* GAN800 hits JamieBennett with a cluebat18:58
Pavlovthe wording of all the ofono announcements was weird18:59
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GAN800Stskeeps, it sure aint no replacement-for-Maemo-platform platform. :P19:00
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GAN800damn Planet whitepage login19:02
StskeepsGAN800: sufficiently bloated it might19:03
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GAN800Lotta bloat. :P19:03
GAN800Anyway, that's clearly not the direction they're intending to go.19:03
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BobbeHey General19:14
GAN800Seriously, MicroB's virtual input merits somebody a severe beating.19:14
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BobbeGAN800, but the fact that the word was meaningless before pwgen spilled it and somebody gave meaning to it.19:15
Bobbeit's sort of like watching a neologism emerge19:15
Bobbenow discussing a standard for how to pronounce a words sounds a lot like we're esperanto-ing the whole thing19:16
GAN800Can't login to maemo.org to beat baloo with a thumb bat for that horrible researched post19:16
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BobbeI'm fairly sure that over time the English-biased pronunciation "MAY-mou" will take over19:16
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Bobbebut it's interesting to see how it was meant to be pronounced19:17
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Bobbeabout the quote, is it the one that is mentioned in the forum thread?19:17
GAN800Bobbe, there is no official pronounciation, but people always ask for something so I put the IPA on wikipedia19:17
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GAN800quote?19:18
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yergaI could record how to pronounce it, if I find something to record it.19:21
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GAN800yerga, Quim's got one from LinuxTag on archive.org19:21
GAN800I tried to pull a sample from that last year but failed miserably.19:22
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BobbeGAN800, I meant 'keynote'19:22
GAN800Although I about died laughing playing it in a loop. ;)19:22
yergahehe ;)19:22
GAN800oh, dunno.19:22
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BobbeI'm kinda fascinated by how this will play out19:24
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BobbeEnglish teachers are weird ppl19:25
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andrewfblackI don't think I've ever spoken the word maemo I normally just say the tablet runs linux in stead of the tablet runs maemo19:28
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Bobbeandrewfblack, exactly because there is no widely-accepted pronunciation. If there was, you'd probably confident enough to say something like "It runs Maemo. It's a Linux distro for NITs"19:30
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luke-jrI pronounce Maemo "My Moe"19:35
luke-jrwhat is the "correct" way?19:35
Bobbehttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=2994&page=519:37
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Bobbeluke-jr, ur a native english speaker right?19:38
luke-jryes19:38
BobbeThought so.19:39
luke-jrbut I also speak a little Nihongo, so that could bias me19:39
Bobbethe speech synthesizer in winxp says it exactly like you19:39
luke-jrlol19:39
Bobbelol if you were japanese-biased you would say it in three syllables19:40
Bobbemah-e-MO19:40
Bobbe"e" as the phonetic symbol I mean19:40
BobbeLike the sound of 'a' in 'day'19:40
luke-jrI said a little :p19:41
Bobbelol19:41
Bobbe(I need IPA for mirc or sth)19:41
luke-jror stop using Windows crap19:41
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Bobbetell linux to make my 3g modem work =)19:42
BobbeI'd LOVE to ditch bill19:42
Bobbeanyway guys, gotta get to work19:42
Bobbecya later19:42
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luke-jrBobbe: tell your 3g modem to stop being idiots19:42
luke-jrand blame the right people19:43
luke-jrfirst, them19:43
luke-jrnext, you19:43
Bobbealready did, several times19:43
luke-jr(since you bought it)19:43
BobbeI don't blame linux at all19:43
Bobbethey have made AMAZING work in ubuntu with 3g modems19:43
Bobbeworks right out of the box19:43
Bobbefor the lucky ones19:43
Bobbeit detects mine, installs it, connects...19:43
Bobbeand disconnects somberly after 30-40 seconds19:43
Bobbewill do so three or more times, then won't connect anymore. it even halts lsusb when I try to run it with it in this way. If I remove it and put it back, it detects it agains... for 30 seconds19:44
luke-jrNDISwrapper?19:44
Bobbeanyway, zte should go to hell19:44
Bobbehm, never tried it19:45
Bobbebut linux does detect it as a usb modem19:45
BobbeI can wvdial it and everything19:45
Bobbeit appear in lsusb19:46
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Bobbebut then again, for 30 secs only19:46
Bobbebut I'll try it later19:46
Bobbegotta run now. thanks luke-jr =)19:46
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Guest6112_522.20:38
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napsyHello. I've downloaded a file in the Document folder. Now I can't access the Documents folder in that app. i can't see any of them. How do I access the nokia  filesystem?20:49
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GAN800What app?20:50
napsyTransmission ;)20:50
GAN800Documents is ~/MyDocs/.documents20:50
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napsyOh they're hidden20:51
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GAN800i18n stuff20:51
timeless_mbpyeah, they're magically localized20:52
timeless_mbpwould you prefer they be Documents.{xx-xxx-x-xxx-x-x-x-x-x-x-x} ? :)20:52
timeless_mbpthat's one of the windows approaches20:52
napsyHm so how do I access hidden files20:52
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timeless_mbpcreate a symlink that isn't hidden ;-)20:52
GAN800Stupid 5800 . . . crashes on GMail messages no matter what now.20:52
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luke-jrtimeless_mbp: I would rather them be named normally and let the UI remap them like it does anyway20:54
timeless_mbpit would confuse users of stupid apps for other languages20:55
* andrewfblack runs and hides from his minimalist 2.0 thread20:55
luke-jrno more than it already does20:56
timeless_mbpnah20:56
timeless_mbpthis way no one sees it unless the app is "special"20:56
timeless_mbpinstead of confusing all the non English speakers20:56
timeless_mbpit is arguably better for the ecosystem20:56
timeless_mbpi'm not saying it's right20:56
timeless_mbpor actually defending it20:56
timeless_mbp(i mostly think it's stupid)20:57
luke-jrriiight, better to not see my files at all, than to see them non-localized20:57
timeless_mbpit's true20:57
luke-jrno it's not20:57
timeless_mbpthis way 100% of the population complains to the app vendor20:57
timeless_mbpinstead of all the people who can't complain in English20:57
napsytimeless_mbp: ls says operation is not permitted when I try to link .documents20:57
timeless_mbpln?20:57
luke-jrtimeless_mbp: ok, so it's a good idea for BETA products20:57
napsyYes20:57
luke-jrbut FINAL products should not HAVE complaints :p20:57
timeless_mbpnapsy: exactly what did you write?20:57
napsyln .documents docs20:58
timeless_mbpyou want ln -s20:58
timeless_mbpln would make a hardlink20:58
timeless_mbpwhich requires you to be root20:58
timeless_mbp-s makes a symlink20:58
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timeless_mbpwhich is what i wrote earlier...20:58
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napsyOk tnx it worked20:58
andrewfblackRST38h: what do you think of the the minimalist theme?20:58
* andrewfblack wonders why so many people view Talk on there phones when they have a tablet in there pocket20:59
timeless_mbps/there/their/21:00
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andrewfblackyou guys knew what i mean :)21:00
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RST38handrew: Well, aside from that 100kB thing, my comments are somewhere at page #221:11
lcukandrewfblack, surely the answer to that is because theres no wifi everywhere21:11
RST38handrew: I think the main screen needs some separators between items. Nothing fancy, just thin lines21:11
andrewfblackRST38h: what name do you post in t.m.o on?21:12
RST38handrew: I think the top menu is way larger than necessary, making it in normally sized, bold font on a differently colored background will do the job21:12
RST38handrew: fms21:12
RST38handrew: The result will look like a thin light-colored menubar21:13
andrewfblackRST38h: ahh I like you better in chat room :)21:13
andrewfblackmost people want finger clickable menu bar though21:13
RST38handrew: In forum, I basically try to systemize comments, that is why it is somewhat impersonal21:13
RST38handrew: weirdly, it will still be finger clickable, as the menu items are elongated21:14
RST38hMay need to use a nail...21:14
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andrewfblackRST38h: on the main screen seporators you want lines between each category or each sub forum as well?21:15
RST38handrew: I would use thin 1-pixel borders around categories and thin lines between subforums21:15
RST38handrew: may show category name on a slightly lighter background21:16
andrewfblackI will give it a try I was asked by some people to removed the colored backgrounds behind them at first but I think lines will work ok21:16
RST38handrew: see comment #5 in the thread21:16
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RST38has long as there are some separators (whatever they are), the whole page should look much better IMHO21:16
andrewfblackyeah I remember your post now just didn't know it was you21:17
RST38handrew: UserCP just needs to be a normal vertical menu, really21:17
qgilhi andrewfblack, thanks for the good work!21:17
RST38hHas got lots of long options, no reason trying to make it horizontal21:17
qgilGAN8001: ping?21:17
andrewfblackI agree on that point I was just trying to keep people from complaining about wasted space21:18
andrewfblackqgil: thanks21:18
andrewfblackRST38h: or scrolling21:18
napsyHm it seems my internal mmc2 memory is read only. Can I remount it?21:18
RST38handrew: it is usercp, people visit it rarely21:19
qgilany user of Advanced Backlight?21:19
RST38hnapsy: I suggest you read about The Bug first21:19
RST38hqgil: yes, what?21:19
napsyIt's a bug?21:19
andrewfblackRST38h: I figure more people will use it now on minimalist then any other theme since its more of a link hub now then a user cp21:19
Stskeeps<- user too21:20
qgilis AB playing with the light sensor as well or just with the % defined by the user?21:20
RST38hnapsy: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=1804321:20
RST38hqgil: I *think* it is fixed21:20
qgilRST38h: the thing is, we initially took the action of having a full slider to define the brightness, just like the volume21:21
RST38handrew: just put subscribed threads link on top :)21:21
andrewfblackRST38h: the size part there really isn't anymore code I can strip away without removing features.21:21
RST38handrew: can I have that js file? =)21:21
qgilhowever, the tests show that is quite complex to play with 0-100% + light sensor in a meaningful way21:21
andrewfblackthere is js in all the theme template files21:21
RST38hqgil: maybe a checkbox "Auto" is the answer?21:22
qgilRST38h: so this is why I was wondering how AB does it, with or without light sensor, because then the calibration is more complex21:22
qgilRST38h: "Auto" what?  :)21:22
lcukrm_you, wakey wakey, qgil wants you21:22
rm_youaye aye cap'n21:22
qgilhi there21:22
rm_youhey qgil, lcuk21:22
lcuk\o21:23
qgilrm_you: please read above my comments about AB + light sensor21:23
andrewfblackqgil: think nokia can send me a new s60 phone to design a t.m.o mobile theme on :)21:23
lcukheh afb21:23
qgilandrewfblack: Nokia is sending you something better than a S60 phone: a real betatester  ;)21:23
rm_youah yes21:23
andrewfblacklcuk: can't blame a man for trying thats how i got my 770 for test stuff on21:23
rm_youqgil: light sensor support was one of my next tasks.21:24
qgilrm_you: then the theory is confirmed21:24
rm_youqgil: there was quite a bit of discussion as to how we would interface in a meaningful way, yes21:24
andrewfblackqgil: I would rather have the phone :)21:24
lcukno blame at all :) you are doing the community members a valuable service :)21:24
qgilrm_you: the guys in the "light laboratory" (however they called it)21:24
qgilsaid that it's not easy21:24
rm_youqgil: what we decided was something like a "light level scheduler" i believe, or an enabled/disabled checkbox for the light sensor21:24
qgiland they have fallen back to the 5 positions21:24
lcukqgil, i have covered my light sensor up with a little sticker :)21:25
lcukit stops the random dim changes from happening ;)21:25
qgilnow having a better calibration in steps21:25
qgilso the lowest is really low etc21:25
lcukive got some spare "im a star" and "well done" ones ;)21:25
andrewfblackhmm now that I have everyone hooked on new minimalist I should charge for updates lol you want you bug fixed $5 each lol21:25
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rm_youqgil: yes, the five steps would be more meaningful if they were configurable21:25
RST38hqgil: Auto makes it control backlight with light sensor21:25
lcukahhh but andrewfblack that would assume you left bugs, and a professional such as your self will make it right first time :P21:25
RST38hqgil: When auto unchecked, it would be fixed brightness21:26
RST38handrew: here is something that bugs me21:26
qgilguys, the thing is: if you find good 5 steps then the bug majority of users won't care21:26
rm_youqgil: yes, having the ability to enable/disable light sensor control was something we thought was very important21:26
RST38handrew: In the original ITT, there was a "mobile" theme, very simple one, that only took 30kB per page or even less21:26
qgilthe bIg ;)21:26
andrewfblacklcuk: I think there was one real bug so far a missing | other then that its basically preference on the look.21:27
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RST38handrew: how come the new one needs 100kB of JS? Has something important changed?21:27
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qgilI think what bug people was that the lowest leverl was still too bright, and AB had an answer for that21:27
lcukif the light sensor was +- 10% of the middle of a step it wouldnt matter21:27
rm_youqgil: yes, that was the initial primary reason for the creation of AB21:27
lcukyeah it did, it just knocked it to minimum minimum21:27
andrewfblackRST38h: this isn't the mobile theme I'm making, I could make a mobile theme that used that much but you would lose thanks, quick reply and some other stuff21:27
RST38handrew: I do not really mind losing any of that21:28
rm_youqgil: now it is a bit more than just that, but people do still find complete and easy control with a full slider useful, I believe21:28
andrewfblackRST38h: I have offered to do a mobile theme but I've been waiting and being selfish about it, I guess I should go ahead and do it21:28
RST38handrew: By all means, ask Quim - he needs to put his E71 into action :)21:28
lcukrm_you, the only one ive heard people really complain about is the lowest minimum, the other steps are just fluff :P21:28
rm_youqgil: i know I would still prefer it to a five step system, though admittedly most users would probably be ok this time around if the steps were configurable21:28
qgilandrewfblack: (((the mobile version HAD thanks and I used it a lot - nothing else though, you could strip away anything but the content)))21:29
* RST38h is actually in somewhat better state than Quim, as his phone has higher resolution21:29
RST38hqgil: 100% agree21:29
lcukahhh,, the age old problem of defining a user interface that makes everyone happy :)21:29
qgilrm_you: can those 5 steps be configured now even if there is no UI for it?21:29
andrewfblackqgil: I guess I'll give up on bumming a free phone and start work on it this week21:30
rm_youqgil: no21:30
andrewfblackI was kinda holding mobile theme hostage for a phone lol21:30
qgilandrewfblack: you can alway try with AB + rotation... 480px wide is a good hint  :)21:31
rm_youqgil: the main advantage of something like AB in the future of maemo (if the light team fixes the UI for the new backlight controller) is statusbar space efficiency (combining multiple functions) and rotation support21:31
qgilrm_you: the status area is totally reshaped, rotation support is part of the system now21:32
rm_youeven if rotation support is made official in fremantle (any word on that?) it is still very much a convenient and space efficient way to control all of that, without using three different buttons for no reason21:32
lcukit makes sense that the 5 step ui had light levels:   10 30 50 70 90   which gave the sensor room to adjust but no way to ever get it lower than low.  abl just lets you choose anything 0..10021:32
rm_youqgil: ok21:32
rm_youqgil: are there screenshots or anything of the new UI area? i have been a bit out of the loop for a bit21:32
qgilrm_you: not about the status area, but coming in the next beta release21:33
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rm_youqgil: ok, would be interesting to see how that works. any details about the reshaping that you can divulge?21:33
qgil(if nothing weird happens, that is - aka don't quote me when I'm at home digesting my dinner)  ;)21:33
rm_youlol ok21:34
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andrewfblackqgil: only thing I kinda worry about doing mobile theme without a mobile is font sizes and navigation21:34
rm_youIs the new app going to be Open or will it be part of a set of proprietary apps like the last set?21:35
qgilrm_you: it's better that you wait and see, otherwise is like explaining a painting over the phone21:35
andrewfblackI guess if phones are touch screen it wont matter21:35
RST38handrew: no touch screen in most nokia phones21:35
qgilandrewfblack: actually you could just keep doing the minimalistic minimal, you are not far frok it imo21:35
RST38handrew: use default font size, do not force your own, the phone will figure it out21:35
qgilnow that there is the classic bright/dark available, why not21:36
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rm_youqgil: heh, alright... I suppose I will have to see how that develops... If the backlight is fully configurable in the new version, the statusbar doesn't suffer from clutter issues, and rotation support is officially built in, then I suppose my effort would be better spent fitting AB into the Mer side of things21:36
qgilrm_you: I don't think the brightness will be user configurable, not via UI at least21:37
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andrewfblackwell minimalist theme is designed for tablets over data connection its suppose to be every feature of regular site minus the images and a little better layout.  Had alot of comlaints about the old minimalist missing to many options21:37
qgilwe really strive to make life simple to end users, and most of them don't care about brightness as long as it responds to their expectations21:37
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rm_youqgil: hrm... well, you are right still, normal users probably won't be as upset if the default values of the five steps are SANE, unlike last revision21:37
qgiland 5 steps should make happy most of us21:37
qgilfor the rest is ok if there is AB  :)21:38
andrewfblackyou guys want mobile version dark or light colors?21:38
rm_youthough I would still push for the ability to set the steps somehow, even if it HAS to be in a console21:38
RST38hqgil: I wonder if it is possible to do automatic brightness control that responds to everyone's expectations...21:38
qgilrm_you: apart from the lowest brightness being too bright... what else was wrong in your opinion?21:38
rm_youqgil: the light sensor "brightnes scheduler" system may have shown some promise21:38
rm_youah, not much21:39
RST38handrew: the old one was light21:39
qgilRST38h: I think this is what the N810 does, except the lowest level21:39
rm_youbesides the space issues I mentioned21:39
andrewfblackRST38h: is that what you guys want now?21:39
* lcuk likes current abl21:39
RST38handrew: dark is also fine but do use more color, almost Teletext style21:39
rm_youlcuk: I haven't really seen anyone who doesn't :P lol21:39
qgilandrewfblack: I actually was quite happy with the boring grey un-branded Mobile there was before21:39
RST38handrew: mostly because the stuff is all very small and using bright colors makes it stand out21:39
lcukheh rm_you you are right there :)21:40
RST38hqgil: not the more colorful version though?21:40
lcukdoes its job without gettin in the way21:40
qgilRST38h: I found it confusing21:40
andrewfblackqgil: well do you want me to work on a new mobile or do you want to try and get reggie to bring old one back?21:40
RST38hqgil: weird, I found the grey one bland but the bright one was quite ok21:40
qgilandrewfblack: I don't want anybody to work on themes actually  ;)21:41
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andrewfblackwhy not?21:41
lcuksend him a phone and he will stop21:41
lcuk:D21:41
andrewfblacklcuk: lol21:41
RST38handrew: bringing old ones back makes sense, if Reggie can do it with relative ease of course21:41
andrewfblackI know qgil has an old nokia phone somewhere just lying around21:41
qgilandrewfblack: so much energy.... Most users of most websites eat what they get and don't complain - even in mobile devices21:41
rm_youI need a new phone really badly :P was thinking about poking someone from Nokia to bring one to Copenhagen for me, lol :P21:42
lcukpeople do what they are good at and what makes them feel fulfilled :)21:42
qgilandrewfblack: I do, of course - but I'm not supposed to give them away21:42
RST38hqgil: sorry but I really really can't eat the maemo branded itt theme :(21:42
andrewfblackqgil: thats true but I have given up on my maemo theme designing and I'm not good for any other developing but web so this is about my only use anymore21:42
RST38hqgil: Classic one if fine though so I am not complaining :)21:42
RST38hs/if/is21:42
qgilRST38h: sure, but now there are... how many? 5 themes? I think it's enough to make happy everybody21:43
andrewfblackqgil: you know I wont tell lol21:43
RST38hqgil: if old mobile ones are brought up I will be completely happy :)21:43
RST38hqgil: currently using monimalistic on the mobile but it is a bit heavy21:43
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qgilRST38h: this is why I think he could keeping stripping it down instead of going for another theme21:44
lcukrm_you, the toilets in copenhagn have anti-adam flooring21:44
rm_youlol21:44
rm_youI'm not going to try to go 1-1 with a German this time :P21:44
andrewfblackqgil: I just ramped it because that is what other people were asking for21:44
rm_youso I should be fine :P21:45
lcukthats a point, can we sit down in mcdonalnds cph?21:45
lcukmcdonalds even21:45
qgilandrewfblack: yes, I know people ask a lot of things  ;)21:45
* lcuk still cant type 21:45
rm_youthat would be useful, i suppose21:45
rm_youWere there no chairs in Mcdonalds berlin?21:45
lcuksave u sliding down the wall21:45
lcukno21:45
rm_youI honestly don't remember that clearly :P21:45
RST38hoh21:45
lcuku sorta slouched up against the wall lol21:46
lcukyou were hammered21:46
rm_youheh21:46
rm_youyeah... trying to keep up with a german was NOT a good idea ^_^21:46
rm_youjott can pack 'em away21:46
* rm_you misses jott21:46
lcukheh21:46
lcuk:( yeah21:47
qgilrm_you: lemme finish that "bright" discussion: we will do our best to define the right 5 steps21:47
rm_youqgil: alright21:47
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lcukqgil, would there be a way to put somewhere a "minimum possible please" tickbox21:47
rm_youqgil: I heard some stuff from GA, not sure 100% what he was talking about, but... essentially, are you guys thinking that AB is superfluous in Fremantle?21:47
qgilandrewfblack: and to conclude with the minimal/mobile discussion21:48
qgilwhat about a poll?21:48
lcukahhhh21:48
qgilasking the Minimal users (and only those) if they would keep it like that or go for a more mobile-friendly version21:48
qgilso you know if you are doing useful work, and in what direction21:48
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rm_youjohnx linked me this yesterday: http://travel.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/travel/17surfacing.html?emc=eta121:49
qgilmost of the recent opinions about the Minimalistic came from people that found that theme being the only salvation from the maemo.org "orange & not-dark" theme21:49
qgilbut I bet most of these are happy now with the dark & Classic variations21:49
andrewfblackI based alot of my redue on comments from when minimalist first came out last year as well21:49
lcukrm_you, that first senstence reminds me of berlin :)21:49
qgilmy suspicion is that most of the current true Minimalistic users really appreciate minimalism (like me)... in a mobile device21:49
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qgilat home with the laptop I'm happy with the default and e.g. it's very useful right column21:50
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* lcuk loves the spy21:50
qgilandrewfblack: last year minimalistic was useful to get rid of that heavy weight N810 image21:50
qgiland mobile was around for the mobile users21:51
qgilnow the situation is different21:51
qgil"rm_you: qgil: I heard some stuff from GA, not sure 100% what he was talking about, but... essentially, are you guys thinking that AB is superfluous in Fremantle?"21:51
qgil"you guys" didn't say anything, it was me in a chat like this21:51
rm_youright21:52
qgiland I only told him the same than I said to you: rotation support is there for the apps willing to use it (not for the whole thing, so it might make sense for you to keep implementing)21:52
rm_yousorry, what I meant by "you guys" was not you and GA, but like... you and the nokia people21:52
qgilalthough it will be funny to see how the apps allowing automatic rotation will deal with a rotated desktop...21:52
rm_youlol21:52
qgilrm_you: this is what I'm saying "the Nokia people" has no opinion about AB21:53
rm_youdoes the light team know it exists? :P21:53
qgilsaving status bar icons is something that also changes in Fremantle21:53
rm_youalright, understood. sometimes it is hard to tell what is from you directly and what is being passed on, as you are basically the only interface we see with internal stuff21:54
qgiland then the light... it was just at the end of last week that the "bright" people told me that 0-100% slider with light sensor was very difficult to calibrate21:54
qgilrm_you: of course many people know it exists but they (rightly) don't think is any of their business to tell you whether the app is useful, useless or something in between21:54
rm_youhey, if i'm wasting my time going in one direction when I should be going in another, i'd like to hear it :)21:55
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qgilthis is why I came here to discuss to the AB developers  :)21:55
rm_youlike, I think the future of AB at this point may be more suited as part of an Open suite of applets for Mer and other alternative OS's21:55
qgilrm_you: that too21:56
rm_youthan to move forward as part of the ITOS system21:56
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rm_youof course if the new brightness system was Open, my energies might be better spent somewhere else altogether21:56
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qgilI know21:57
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rm_youqgil: alright, well, good to hear from you!21:58
rm_youthanks for the info / opinions21:58
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rm_youi'll be re-evaluating the direction I take with AB21:58
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qgilthanks for your work rm_you21:59
rm_you:)21:59
rm_youalright, off to run errands for a bit22:00
andrewfblackqgil: well if we can figure out what the community wants or what who ever wants, I will do it, but it kinda sounds like we should just trash my minimalist theme and go with a prefab mobile theme22:01
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qgilandrewfblack: do you really think so? I'm very happy with it!22:04
qgilthis is why I think you should ask opinions from the regular users of your theme22:04
toggles_wandrewfblack: ekiga.net to work?22:05
andrewfblackqgil: it seems like you would have been happier with old minimalist since it had less features22:05
andrewfblacktoggles_w: what?22:06
Stskeepsrm_you: if you can sit down or not depends on the mcd :P most have seating places22:06
Myrttiekiga.net works if you connect directly to zee Interhwebs not being behind NAT22:06
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toggles_w14:01 < andrewfblack> qgil: well if we can figure out what the community wants22:06
Myrttior have portforwarding22:06
toggles_wi want ekiga to work ;-)22:06
andrewfblackI will put a poll up on t.m.o and see what people want, I'm sure we can't make everyone happy, we will just have to try and make the most happy I guess22:07
qgilandrewfblack: indeed, and I pointed out that already in the prvious discussion, but that was in the -we want dark theme- discussion, when you got some "opportunistic" users just because you happened to have a dark background22:08
qgilandrewfblack: or don't make a poll  :)22:09
qgilandrewfblack: just listen to any suggestion about removing things that doesn't get a frontal opposition22:09
lcukif this were 3 weeks ago we could make a poll asking if you should make a poll :D22:09
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qgilI can already use the minimalistic in this E7122:10
qgilandrewfblack: I have commented the only things in that thread, that make me stil use the 75% zoom22:10
qgilbut you're quite there22:10
andrewfblackI'm happy removing any thing people want removed I just get alot of back and forth from the community on what should stay and what should go22:10
andrewfblackqgil: what part was that?22:11
andrewfblackthe menu?22:11
qgilandrewfblack: you just answerd to it  :)22:11
andrewfblackhow would you like the menu done to make it work better for phones22:12
qgilI see your answer now and the couple of Thanks!22:12
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qgilandrewfblack: just forget what I said and keep it like that  :)22:13
qgilotherwise indeed is going to be insane for you22:13
qgiljust one thing can make the page fluid on a mobile device, I think:22:13
qgil"There is something forcing a horizontal scroll. I believe is the header of posts, specifically the "Posts: 513 Thanks!: 54 Thanked 159 Times in 90 Posts". Do we really need this in the Minimalistic theme? If you are into minimalism and simplicity those details are secondary to you."22:14
qgil"specifically the "Posts: 513 Thanks!: 54 Thanked 159 Times in 90 Posts". Do we really need this in the Minimalistic theme?"22:14
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qgilandrewfblack: this string seems to be fixed so it pushes the page wider22:15
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andrewfblackqgil: I will take it out next update then22:16
qgilthen the "Bugs" and "Viaspy" links are so needed that people would complain if you take them out?22:16
qgilandrewfblack: probably saying "Posts: 704 | Thanked: 1,381 times" like the default theme is enough22:17
qgilI think that's all to make it 'mobile'22:17
andrewfblackbugs I'm sure it wont and Viaspy I will move user cp with rest of links22:18
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andrewfblackqgil: it might help if reggie would give you access to sandbox so you can make sure those are the problems keeping it wide after I fix them22:20
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qgilandrewfblack: it's been a while since the last time I had to work with web source code and I probably don't understand a thing nowadays22:24
andrewfblackqgil: I mean just the front end of out testing site so you can see what the theme will look like before me upload it to t.m.o22:25
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kpelhi guys22:26
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qgilandrewfblack: at the end it doesn't matter - until now I had used the themes that were available without complaining about anything  ;)22:35
andrewfblackqgil: well it should be that way, this is the community site and everyone should get to put there point in, this theme is the only thing keeping me part of the community right now so its more your guys then it is mine22:36
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RST38xyahooo! 64MB SDRAM works!22:38
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kpelare there any plans to support the ovi.com services in the official software packages?22:47
kpelyou know, applets for ovi maps, contacts, etc. like the gmail checker we currently have.22:48
RST38xheh, a trick question :)22:48
kpel?22:48
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kpelis it too general?22:49
RST38xkpel: Answering it either way will basically reveal more about the upcoming tablet than Nokia would like to reveal, as far as I know :)22:49
kpelin that case I withdraw the question :)22:49
RST38xkpel: Let me find a mildly related itt post though...22:50
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kpelRST38x: ok22:51
RST38xkpel: Not really a large enough post to give a link, but GeneralAntilles says that Nokia has got some plans for XUL22:52
RST38xkpel: This indirectly implies the widgets22:52
kpelah, got you. Thanks ;)22:53
* kpel waits for the new tablet22:53
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ShadowJKI would want the light sensor to adjust between 10 and 127. total darkness: 10. dusk outside, tablet indoors: 25. cloudy day, tablet indoors: 35. Sunny morning, tablet indoors: 60. sunny day, outside: 12722:59
ShadowJKbut it's hard to get right, i find myself moving tablet if light level is automagically adjusted when im reading...23:00
lcuki would rather have control, having a computer trying to work out whats right invariably leads to frustration23:00
lcuki just leave it on one setting unless its wrong23:01
ShadowJKbonus for smoothly reducing brightness when in dark room and viewing a bright page23:02
ShadowJKbonus for increasing brightness when viewing a dark xterm23:02
ShadowJKyeah i just manually change it23:07
ShadowJKbut sometimes it would be nice to not get blinding deathstar right after waking up in drak room23:08
ShadowJKre themes. minimalistic is great, for desktop, makes it respond much snappier than the regular theme :-)23:08
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ShadowJKnow we should conspire to trick someone to make a "full function" mobile version with 0k js and 0k external .css23:10
ShadowJKthat should end up working nicely on the tablet23:10
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mmoraishi, how can I install maemo-sdk on ubuntu jaunty?23:12
mmoraisit is possible?23:12
andrewfblackRST38x: take a look at what this site says about minimalist site <a href="http://www.linkvendor.com/seo-tools/site-analysis/website-speed-test,46.html" title="LinkVendor: Website Speed Test">Website Speed Test</a>23:13
ShadowJKit's be interesting to make a theme restricted completely to a subset of html2, most browsers should be fast at that by now :)23:13
andrewfblackopps didn't mean to copy the entire thing lol23:13
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* RST38x is writing a reply to benny1967 who just went completley paranoid over that stupid gay parade23:14
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andrewfblackShadowJK: you want to trick me into making it?23:14
andrewfblackShadowJK: I'll tell you how to do it lol23:14
andrewfblackbtw 0k external .css would be a nightmare to write.23:16
ShadowJKoh I was thinking about what the minimal subset you'd need23:16
ShadowJKlike, ideally23:17
ShadowJK<p> and <a href>... do you need more? :P23:17
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ShadowJK<hr> between posts!23:18
ShadowJKat that point, it should be trivial to strip to markup completely and scrape it into a mailspool for viewing in mutt23:19
ShadowJK:D23:19
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ShadowJKIt's a pity multi-interface forum software died out :(23:20
bubibubibubihttp://yahoumba.mybrute.com irrational flash stuiff23:20
bubibubibubihttp://yahoumba.mybrute.com irrational flash stuiff23:20
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RST38xandrew: Says the same thing as the site I used23:21
ShadowJKthere used to be several with http, mail and nntp interfaces to the same contents :)23:21
RST38xandrew: BUT actually lists JS scripts23:21
MyrttiShadowJK: posts should be in divs, not separated by <hr />'s ;-)23:22
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ShadowJKwell ok :)23:22
RST38xandrew: I wonder what yahoo-dom-event is...23:22
RST38xvbulletin_menu is still there23:23
RST38xEstimated times are wrong: you get 3.66s for UMTS and 0.53s for the modem23:23
RST38xThe real time over GPRS is more like 10-30 seconds23:24
ShadowJKumts != gprs23:27
RST38xUMTS should be faster, right?23:27
ShadowJKyes23:27
RST38xUMTS should be faster than normal modem right?23:27
ShadowJKI would have guessed "average reallife" latency of gprs to be 5-10 times worse than umts23:29
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RST38xWhatever it is, ITT loads in 10-30 seconds for me over GPRS, using minimalist scheme23:30
RST38xWhich it about three times longer than it should, content-wise23:30
ShadowJKit's the number of requests23:30
ShadowJKyou've got an average latency when idle of about 1 to 1.5 seconds23:30
ShadowJKcan get as "good" as .3 secs if connection is loaded exactly the right amount :)23:31
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ShadowJKbut quickly 5 second latencies during moderate load23:31
ShadowJKabsolute worst case is much worse :)23:32
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RST38xehhh23:36
RST38xCan't win23:36
ShadowJKGAN8001: about your expired cert issues... anyone suggested the obvious yet? turn off auto-fetch time from network, manually set clock to 2007 or something23:37
ShadowJKrst38x: opera mini wins because it makes just one request :)23:37
ShadowJKso typical "not ideal case" delay is something like 1.5 sec + .3*2 before data comes in, and then it all comes at once23:39
ShadowJKless on subsequent pages because it doesn't close connection to opera's server23:39
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ShadowJKthis is why I mentioned self-contained html, the number of objects matter much more than datasize, atleast for speed23:40
ShadowJKit's ahother question whether user would want to tradeoff speed for less bytes transfered :)23:41
ShadowJK(if they get metered by the byte)23:41
luke-jrwhat idiot put the N810's mic in the BOTTOM?23:42
ShadowJKThey had to give the n-gage hw designers a new home23:43
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ShadowJKin practice it works though? or atleast other people on skype claimed they had no problem hearing me... or the hockey game on the tv nextroom..heh23:44
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luke-jrShadowJK: as a speakerphone to one person maybe23:47
luke-jrnot as a stealth conversation recorder23:48
luke-jror speakerphone to a group around a central point23:48
luke-jrI now have to compromise: recording, or notes?23:49
luke-jrI will have to choose recording and hope I can make out well enough to add notes later23:49
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ShadowJKhow's the bundled external mic?23:52
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n6pfkIs this the right channel for the N810?23:57
ShadowJKyep23:58
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