IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2009-05-06

qgil	Stskeeps: thanks!	00:01
qgil	dear lazyweb, wher can I find the list of Maemo projects approved for GSOC?	00:01
qgil	hi crashanddie	00:02
Stskeeps	http://wiki.maemo.org/GSoC_2009/Projects	00:02
qgil	lovely	00:02
lcuk	#maemo :: faster than google	00:02
GeneralAntilles	lcuk, #maemo - usually just a proxy for Google. :P	00:02
lcuk	indeed, you even act as the spell checker :D	00:03
crashanddie	no, that's just GA's usual pedantic self	00:03
mikkov_	google answered with thi	00:04
lcuk	anyway, more drugs needed, bbl	00:04
GeneralAntilles	Without pedantic people like me, there'd just be anarchy. :P	00:04
crashanddie	lol, how to detect if someone has no idea what so ever who you are: They reply to "hi", but don't answer the "how are you" question :)	00:04
mikkov_	s https://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Random	00:04
GeneralAntilles	Drove past a schoolzone today and a few of the students were wearing masks.	00:04
GeneralAntilles	Swine flu insanity.	00:04
crashanddie	haha	00:04
crashanddie	you're going to die	00:04
crashanddie	That's it, your life's over	00:05
crashanddie	I hope you enjoyed the ride :)	00:05
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GeneralAntilles	As soon as I find out I'm sick I'm flying over there to cough on you.	00:05
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crashanddie	I have 3 boxes of tamiflu :P	00:05
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crashanddie	I take pre-emptive shots just to be sure	00:05
GeneralAntilles	But it's swine flu!	00:06
zakkm	GeneralAntilles: where in the world you live?	00:06
CutMeOwnThroat	egypt	00:06
GeneralAntilles	zakkm, hostmask.	00:06
GeneralAntilles	zakkm, figure it out yet?	00:08
zakkm	?	00:09
zakkm	where you live?	00:09
GeneralAntilles	/whois GeneralAntilles	00:09
zakkm	ohh	00:09
crashanddie	who set us up the bomb!	00:09
zakkm	didnt think of that	00:09
GeneralAntilles	You're learning something new today. :P	00:09
zakkm	noo i know host address's its just i didnt think of checking	00:09
crashanddie	addresses	00:09
zakkm	i just saw your story and thinking where you live	00:09
zakkm	yeahh im tired :D	00:09
crashanddie	please use the apostrophes in the right places	00:10
crashanddie	didn't takes one, addresses doesn't ;)	00:10
radic	Stskeeps: for what is the browserd required?	00:10
crashanddie	radic, the interwebs :)	00:10
GeneralAntilles	and I'm the pedantic one	00:11
radic	crashanddie: and what can i do if it crashed?	00:11
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qgil	http://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend#Spaces created	00:18
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zakkm	Main Hall equipped with tables, chairs and power chords	00:18
zakkm	qgil: what are power chords?	00:18
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Stskeeps	cords :P	00:18
* Stskeeps heads to bed		00:19
zakkm	where developers hang around, chat and hack. (free!) <--- since when did you pay to hangout, chat or hack ?	00:19
Stskeeps	zakkm: linux cafe?	00:19
Stskeeps	:P	00:19
zakkm	you dont have to buy anything	00:19
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zakkm	and thats for food	00:20
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qgil	zakkm: actually we are going to place a guy like this one in each table: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MstE-avZp8w	00:22
zakkm	qgil: starting to sound like a fun event	00:23
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qgil	zakkm: "(free!)" is after the dot - anyway you native English speakers can edit the page at will (and the rest of humans too)	00:24
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zakkm	english isnt your first language? cool	00:24
qgil	zakkm: there are two languages in the row before English for m	00:25
qgil	e	00:25
zakkm	qgil: thats awesome, i can only speak english	00:25
zakkm	which sucks cause i want to go into real estate, and i realize that fact will hurt	00:26
luke-jr	qgil: ö hi!	00:26
johnx	zakkm, eh, plenty of time to learn other languages. You can pick them up quick with a little immersion to help you	00:26
qgil	for instance PERL, mind you	00:27
zakkm	meant speaking languages :P	00:27
luke-jr	♡ Perl	00:27
zakkm	johnx: i suppose so, takes a long time to learn a language though	00:27
qgil	zakkm: for some it takes only a (good) girl/boy/friend	00:28
* zakkm is so glad he failed programming in school :P		00:28
qgil	in my case, a job definitely helps	00:28
johnx	qgil, yup. there are other strategies too, like getting yourself moved to some other part of the world :)	00:28
zakkm	a friend of mine is korean , and he said he would help me if i were to try and learn it, im stupid cause i should of took a language in my highskool / learn from people gradually	00:29
zakkm	unable to do that though ;p	00:29
zakkm	move	00:29
crashanddie	I want to move to sweden to learn the language	00:29
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zakkm	how would a job help? with speaking language?	00:29
crashanddie	(at least, that's what I tell my gf)	00:29
zakkm	hah	00:29
johnx	zakkm, if everyone at your job speaks a different language, you'll learn it or get fired :D	00:29
crashanddie	johnx, not true	00:30
zakkm	cant pick up the language that quickly :D	00:30
johnx	constant motivation is the hardest part of learning a language	00:30
johnx	zakkm, have you ever tried?	00:30
johnx	you never know what you can do until you're really motivated :)	00:30
zakkm	having a job where everyone speaks a different language, no	00:30
zakkm	im still at my first few jobs stage ;p	00:30
crashanddie	johnx, I've worked in countries that were non-english, but the work language was english, can assure you my ass was never on the line ;)	00:30
qgil	there is plenty of Spanish people going to London to learn English, getting a job in a kitchen and ending up learning... all kinds of languages from other non-English spakers in the same kitchen	00:31
zakkm	thats cool	00:31
johnx	spanish <-> english isn't too bad	00:31
zakkm	i live in Toronto, canada by the way, for the purpose of this chat	00:31
crashanddie	qgil, problem with "non-qualified workers" is that most of the time they end up staying within their own community, and it gets pretty hard to learn the actual language, considering they never speak it	00:31
johnx	english <-> $asian_language is generally hard	00:31
zakkm	whole new language system	00:31
lcuk	johnx, i spoke with omweather author for just 2 days, it was his first ever time speaking in english, obviously things were hard but i was astounded by how much we managed to convey in that time	00:31
crashanddie	qgil, if you are an educated worker, you'll have bases that will allow you to communicate on a primary level, learning from there is a lot easier	00:32
lcuk	(hes russian)	00:32
qgil	crashanddie: this is why I forced myself to share flat with brits when moving to London	00:32
zakkm	london is awesome :D	00:32
zakkm	i was there for like 3 days few years ago	00:32
johnx	lcuk, yup. I still maintain that knowing "how to communicate" is a skill that's independent of language	00:32
zakkm	you guys move around alot eh?	00:32
zakkm	doesnt that hurt financially?	00:33
qgil	zakkm: in my case staying where I was would have hurt probably more	00:33
crashanddie	qgil, if I go to Nokia, and yell Hyvä iltaa! at 9AM, only if we have a common language will you be able to tell me "that's for evenings dude" and will I learn	00:33
lcuk	agreed johnx, at first it took hand waving and going slowly, but we found the common ground and adapted to each other	00:33
qgil	Spain is beating records on unemployment as we speak...	00:33
zakkm	qgil: you from spain?	00:33
qgil	Nokia is not the best place to learn Finnish in Finland, really	00:34
crashanddie	"Quim Gil" now there's a spanish name	00:34
zakkm	i once knew a guy in Finland :(	00:34
zakkm	went to serve in the army, never heard from him again	00:34
qgil	Quim is a Catalan name, to be precise. :)	00:34
timeless_mbp	Nokia is about the worst place to learn anything in Finland :)	00:34
crashanddie	oh right, you're catalan, right, forgot about that	00:34
zakkm	nokia is centered in finland?	00:35
crashanddie	zakkm, get back in your cave	00:35
zakkm	yes sir	00:35
qgil	(time to go back to editing the wiki page)	00:35
timeless_mbp	nah, it's centered in Japan ;-)	00:35
GeneralAntilles	Right geographic oddity right there.	00:35
zakkm	wikipedia says Finland :D	00:35
GeneralAntilles	You trust wikipedia? ;)	00:36
zakkm	sadly	00:36
zakkm	its a problem of my youth	00:36
zakkm	its jsut so good	00:37
qgil	actually Nokia is not centered in Finland but in Espoo	00:39
jaska	espoo is where the barriers between dimensions are thin	00:40
jaska	and the monsters leak thru	00:40
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* qgil feels some boredom starting a table for a schedule in a wiki (or plain HTML actually)		00:42
GeneralAntilles	Don't talk to me about wiki boredom. :P	00:43
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GeneralAntilles	I need to get X-Fade to fix the amboxes. . . .	00:44
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VDVsx	qgil, btw, the amsterdam venues that you saw are fine enough for the summit ?	00:49
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qgil	yes, both the WesterGas and the Felix Meritis make merits for a good Summit	00:50
qgil	the problem is now on Nokia's plate, really	00:50
qgil	I will report more deeply, but since you ask	00:50
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qgil	the thing is that we are looking at the calendar and roadmap seeing what to announce when	00:51
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johnx	:D	00:51
qgil	and it could be that 11-13 is not an ideal date actually	00:52
qgil	maybe after OSiM would be better	00:52
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qgil	or even in mid october..............	00:52
qgil	so we need to decide some things internally about dates and announcements	00:52
qgil	and then talk to you about when would be better for the summit	00:53
GAN800	Now that sounds bad. :/	00:53
qgil	mid october could mean to start talking about Harmattan...	00:54
zakkm	yo	00:54
zakkm	any of you guys want a free domain?	00:54
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* VDVsx start crying, mid October = thesis presentation :(		00:54
zakkm	mid october, so far away :D	00:54
qgil	don't panic	00:54
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VDVsx	ehhehe	00:54
qgil	the plan is still 11-13 and we would have good content and venue for that	00:55
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VDVsx	at least will be at a weekend I assume :P	00:55
qgil	but there might be a possibility to have something more/better just 1-4 weeks later, and it's worth considering	00:55
qgil	remember that we took th 11-13 sep just because of OSiM world, now we have more elements to think about	00:56
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qgil	the 1-4 extra weeks might help more people arranging some travel plans based on stuff announced before	00:57
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qgil	what to do? one option is to have a progression from the previous summit, having a similar audience + some more people and have something basically around Maemo 5	00:59
qgil	or	00:59
qgil	another option is to give a bit more time for more stuff, get a wider audience and have more Harmattan flesh in place	01:00
qgil	any many other possibilities in between of course	01:00
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VDVsx	make sense, if you guys plan to announce maemo related stuff at OSIM, but IMO I think maemo 5 should take a lot of attention, not need to wait for harmattan	01:01
GAN800	Be nice to get a meetup outside of Europe	01:01
* zakkm just got 2 year unlimited hosting from dreamhost and is willing to give ppl ftp access to upload maemo/mer/whatever related files		01:02
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qgil	VDVsx: remember that the prvious Maemo Summit was a good place to start sharing the "Fremantle vision"	01:02
qgil	by September/October Fremantle should be all set when it comes to vision	01:03
VDVsx	I hope so, lol	01:03
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qgil	GAN800: outside of Europe meaning USA?	01:04
* zakkm thinks there will be a n900 prototype at the next maemo summit/danishweekend		01:04
zakkm	yeahhh Toronto, canada would be nice! :P	01:04
GAN800	qgil, eventually, but I'm sure people elsewhere would also appreciate having something there.	01:04
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qgil	GAN800: and us too, but we need more momentum and critical mass in the land of iPhone and Android, I think	01:05
zakkm	i dont know about there, but everyone here i know mostly has a ipod touch/iphone	01:06
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GAN800	Android is all hype. Nobody actually owns Android devices.	01:07
GAN800	Here, anyway.	01:07
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* zakkm never seen anything android in person ever and lives in a huge city.		01:07
qgil	specially in the US, hype is half of your product ;)	01:07
GeneralAntilles	I've seen a G1 once.	01:07
GeneralAntilles	See tons of iPhones, though.	01:07
johnx	GAN800, saw a fair number at LFNW, but saw just about as many freerunners ;)	01:07
zakkm	also you guys are tech people, your have a higher chance of seeing such gadgets	01:08
GeneralAntilles	johnx, yeah, bad sample. :P	01:08
GeneralAntilles	East coast, too.	01:08
GeneralAntilles	Er, I'm East, you're West.	01:09
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VDVsx	qgil, don't knowing the maemo roadmap at deep, I think it will all depends when fremantle will be released, i.e if freematle is out in June/July, I agreed with you (we should wait for harmattan), if the fremantle device only hit the shelf's in August/Sept, I think it will worth keep the current dates, because fremantle will still fresh at this time	01:10
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johnx	GeneralAntilles, thanks for clearning that up :)	01:10
GuySoft	hey, about the maemo microphone - how come it can only record khz? what chip is on there?	01:13
zakkm	anyone have a old geocities account?	01:14
johnx	zakkm, are they owned by yahoo now? I think I had one at one point...	01:14
zakkm	they always were	01:14
zakkm	they shut it down like last week, and dreamhost is offering 2 yr free domain + unlimited web hosting to all old geocities members	01:14
johnx	yeah, think I have one, but I don't know the password ...	01:14
qgil	VDVsx: too many variables at the moment and I can't discuss here most of them, sorry :(	01:14
johnx	zakkm, !!	01:15
zakkm	"$214 value"	01:15
qgil	as said 11-13 is still the plan and this is why yesterday (actually now 2 days ago) I went to Amsterdam to look for venues with Kees and Nils	01:15
qgil	Niels	01:15
zakkm	you have to change a page to add some string, and then use it as a promocode when register for dreamhost, and it brings it to $0	01:15
VDVsx	qgil, I know, just expressing my side/opinion :)	01:15
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GAN800	johnx, confusing, right? ;)	01:16
johnx	yeah, if you weren't here to remind me where I am I'd probably get confused and end up in Japan or something	01:17
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GAN800	Ehehe	01:17
* GAN800 is addled again today		01:17
qgil	20 minutes for prsentations/demos? not lightning - not extended - not taking too much time from your work	01:18
zakkm	wow, alot of work has been put into this event	01:19
qgil	VDVsx: even knowing all the internal info is not clear to have a side/opion :)	01:19
VDVsx	GAN800, for me, is pacific coast and Atlantic coast :P easier	01:19
GAN800	I'd love to see Fremantle come with a spellcheck framework.	01:19
qgil	this is why I'm concentrating on Copenhagen now because there is no 3 without 1 and 2 (Desktop Summit)	01:19
johnx	GAN800, gtk already has one	01:19
GAN800	VDVsx, 'Atlantic coast represent!' doesn't work so well. :P	01:20
* zakkm would love to see fremantle ui/theme work on n800		01:20
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lcuk	qgil, 20 mins! longer than last time :)	01:20
VDVsx	GAN800, lol	01:20
GAN800	johnx, the I'd like to see Fremantle come with a dictionary or somethimg.	01:20
* lcuk starts writing now :P		01:20
johnx	GAN800, not sure if it's just a compile time option, or something that happened in a later gtk, or what	01:21
qgil	lcuk: mmm nw you make think of 15	01:21
GAN800	s/the/then/ s/img/ing/	01:21
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lcuk	heh - you have made me nervous already!	01:21
VDVsx	15 min + 5 min for Q&A sounds fine	01:22
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GAN800	lcuk's talk is 1 hour and nobody's allowed to laugh. :P	01:22
lcuk	heh	01:22
* zakkm thinks 5min wont be enough for Q&A		01:22
lcuk	btw, on a related topic - is there a SIMPLE dictation program for n8x0 - i have one on my phone which "just works" but i want one for nokia	01:22
lcuk	we could never get mic working	01:22
GAN800	White Stork	01:22
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* lcuk practices his Northern		01:23
GAN800	Quim, you have a red phone to Ville re #3602?	01:24
qgil	GAN800: I think this one will get sorted out	01:25
GAN800	Alternatively I think we should get andre__ a stick to beat people with.	01:26
qgil	GAN800: Ville probably doesn't have a confirmed answer yet but Fremantle is integrated in a way much more modular and customizable, so it could be done	01:26
* GAN800 should look at the bugzilla report cards again.		01:26
qgil	I agre Ville could report more statuses even if the thing is not decided yet	01:26
GAN800	Shouting into the dark is tiresome and wasteful of everybody's time and bandwidth.	01:27
qgil	how much time for Mer in the auditorium? 15 or more?	01:27
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qgil	GAN800: this darkness takes me also plenty of time so yes, I agree	01:28
lcuk	say 15 for now quim, then like last time we can adjust as required	01:28
lcuk	i think time was halved as additional ones came onboard	01:28
lcuk	but at least you have a baseline	01:28
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qgil	lcuk: but hre is different: we don't have a schedule to fill since those activities are complementary to the main purpose of meeting and work on your own projects and surroundings	01:29
lcuk	good point	01:29
zakkm	anyone willing to give me a google voice invite? :D	01:30
fireun	you're invited (;	01:31
zakkm	lol	01:31
zakkm	i heard you can do invites, like gmail does	01:32
zakkm	i want to try it on tablet :P	01:32
fireun	good luck finding someone who uses it	01:32
zakkm	nobody uses?	01:32
GAN800	I haven't seen any invites	01:32
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fireun	skype has the only people I know who use voip	01:33
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GAN800	Voicemail transcription is fairly epic.	01:33
zakkm	skype on iphone i think changes alot :P	01:34
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johnx	I think they closed off invites for right now. I expect them to do more with it later though	01:35
lcuk	im vanishing anyway \o gnite qgil, gan vdv johnx etc	01:36
johnx	'night lcuk :)	01:36
zakkm	night lcuk	01:36
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VDVsx	gnite lcuk	01:41
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qgil	http://wiki.maemo.org/Mozilla_Maemo_Danish_Weekend#Schedule	01:43
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qgil	so hopefully the page is much better now based on your feedback some hours ago	01:43
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qgil	if someone could add some captions of the pictures of the venue available, that would be great	01:44
qgil	I'm falling asleep right nowwwwwwwww	01:44
GAN800	Later	01:44
VDVsx	qgil, isn't possible to stay at night in the 'hacking hall' ?	01:45
qgil	VDVsx: er... I don't think so	01:45
GAN800	lol	01:45
GAN800	So no leaving drunk hackers lying around. ;)	01:45
qgil	but I see your point and actually there is a students lounge/bar nearby that is open during the night (don't know exact timing)	01:46
qgil	and I wouldn 't be surprised if they would be under the campus wifi cloud	01:46
qgil	I'll ask, good point	01:47
VDVsx	normally those partys are 24hours of programming (or more for some strong guys :P)	01:47
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qgil	yes yes, we need to think something - agred	01:47
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qgil	not for the 24h but at least something between 18:00-23:59	01:48
GAN800	Sounds to me like VDVsx is volunteering to have everybody convene in his room. :P	01:49
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qgil	combination of night public transport is something to look at	01:49
VDVsx	GAN800, I will not attend :P	01:49
qgil	we don't want hackers without money to pay a taxi realzing while compiling that it's 2am and there is no easy way to go back to the hotel	01:50
lcuk	qgil, check with the hotel its bar opening times and laptop allowances ;)	01:51
VDVsx	qgil, yup, It should be a problem, I went to some hacking partys and normally we stay in the building until morning (of course older people leave earlier)	01:51
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VDVsx	qgil, taxi at DK should be not very cheap	01:52
lcuk	or else im sure theres some all nite cafes	01:53
* VDVsx and friends payed 30 € in amsterdam for a taxi ride :P		01:53
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zakkm	doesnt anyone take public transit down there?	02:01
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VDVsx	gnite folks :)	02:04
johnx	night VDVsx	02:05
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penguinbait	lcuk :)	02:10
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penguinbait	hows it goin	02:10
lcuk	painfully thanks	02:11
penguinbait	hhehe, you seemed lonely from your post, so I thouhgt I would say hello	02:11
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penguinbait	wooo hooo	02:12
lcuk	heh its been bustling tonight	02:12
penguinbait	it is quiet in here	02:12
lcuk	i meant in general	02:12
lcuk	i almost added a footnote	02:12
lcuk	ur on a bit of a crusade at the moment anyway	02:12
lcuk	sudden burst of energy :P	02:13
penguinbait	which one	02:13
penguinbait	lull at work :)	02:13
lcuk	all places, ahhh	02:13
lcuk	you got the fremantle sdk running?	02:14
penguinbait	no, I am waiting for hardware	02:14
lcuk	why dont you try qoles trick :)	02:14
lcuk	its dead simple	02:14
penguinbait	whats that?	02:14
lcuk	just start the sdk up and put a vnc server on it	02:14
lcuk	then use the vnc client on your tablet	02:14
penguinbait	hmmm	02:15
lcuk	you can get the "feel" of it and see how your apps will look and stuff	02:15
lcuk	its not perfect, but its better than pretending its a touchscreen	02:15
penguinbait	hehe	02:15
penguinbait	I have never run anything graphically from the SDK	02:16
penguinbait	I compiled 100+ apps then tarball to tablet	02:16
penguinbait	hehe	02:16
lcuk	the first time i experienced it was when qwerty12 shared it from his vnc	02:16
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lcuk	my home linux machine wont make it	02:16
lcuk	wont work with it ^	02:16
penguinbait	with the VNC, or the SDK ?	02:17
lcuk	i do all my compilation on tablet too :) gcc runs nicely	02:17
lcuk	the sdk on my laptop runs at about 5sec / frame	02:17
penguinbait	Its handy for small stuff, It should be much better on the next hardware	02:17
lcuk	yeah im hoping so	02:17
penguinbait	me too	02:18
lcuk	ive got an idea about distribution	02:18
lcuk	and workflow	02:18
lcuk	chop out scratchbox for all but the biggest stuff for those willing to try :)	02:18
johnx	coughmercough	02:18
lcuk	:) johnx its also gotta work on the default install	02:19
lcuk	but yes 100% agree, mer allows MUCH more	02:19
johnx	that's Nokia's choice if they want to pick up using the openSuse builder as well	02:19
johnx	That came along at exactly the right moment for us	02:20
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penguinbait	are any major changes expected when the SDK comes out of beta? or is it all just bugs fixes left?	02:20
lcuk	yeah you lot seem to have been getting teeth into it nicely	02:20
johnx	though if Nokia keeps ash+busybox I doubt building deb packages on the tablet will be very fun in Maemo	02:20
lcuk	i dunno pb	02:20
luke-jr	I've decided I'm not buying the next tablet until I know for certain it is 100% open	02:20
johnx	ok luke-jr. no one is forcing you	02:21
lcuk	as johnx says mer is already shape using those, so momentum says the longer they leave it the less chance	02:21
penguinbait	I bought 770, 800, 810, and I will buy a whatever the hell it will be called	02:21
lcuk	luke-jr, so you dont want flash or skype or maps?	02:21
luke-jr	lcuk: no	02:21
lcuk	fair enough :)	02:21
luke-jr	lcuk: you'd need to bribe me to use them	02:21
luke-jr	and I don't mean the software that is included	02:21
lcuk	no i wouldnt	02:21
luke-jr	I couldn't care less what that is	02:22
johnx	lcuk, it only became feasible for us very recently I think, and Nokia had already decided on scratchbox for fremantle long before that	02:22
luke-jr	just as long as I can install my own stuff that is Free only	02:22
lcuk	yeah	02:22
johnx	they have a choice for hermatten though	02:22
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luke-jr	lcuk: my Zaurus which I haven't touched for over a year has a newer kernel than the N810 ;p	02:23
johnx	luke-jr, because people spent a lot of time reverse engineering it	02:23
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lcuk	in practical terms though, what does that gain?	02:23
johnx	lcuk, continued userland upgrades in the long term. better performance in the short term	02:23
johnx	it is an issue that will need to be addressed eventually	02:23
luke-jr	johnx: my point wasn't that Sharp is better than Nokia, it's not	02:24
johnx	luke-jr, I agree that we need a new kernel on the n8x0 hardware. We just need to dig up a kernel hacker and get them hooked :>	02:24
johnx	the situation looks better for the omap3 though	02:24
luke-jr	lcuk: in practical terms, my GPS takes over 30 minutes to first fix AFTER I've spent HOURS hacking at it because Nokia/TI refuses to give protocol info	02:25
luke-jr	I think we need a fair use law that protocol specs need to be licensed automatically if buy hardware using it	02:25
jaska	yeah	02:25
lcuk	luke-jr, thats not the same thing as having a newer kernel - i AGREE if it was open and someone with experience in the chipset can help it would be fixed	02:25
lcuk	but it requires both elements	02:25
luke-jr	this "you can buy the GPS, but you need to spend weeks reverse engineering if you want to use it" is BS	02:26
lcuk	i didnt reverse engineer anything?	02:26
lcuk	todd happily directs tracy around	02:26
johnx	luke-jr, the GPLv3 should help as it further "infects" more parts of the GNU/Linux userland ;)	02:26
lcuk	traffic circles and everything	02:26
penguinbait	My gps works fine, and my bt gps works even better	02:27
AStorm	GPS receivers are actually standarized	02:27
AStorm	NMEA ftw	02:27
AStorm	both BT and RS-232 ones	02:27
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luke-jr	lcuk: you're using Nokia software; what if you want to use the GPS itself?	02:29
luke-jr	AStorm: the GPS5300 inside N810 is non-standard	02:29
AStorm	GAH!	02:29
AStorm	kill...	02:29
lcuk	? luke-jr we do use the gps?	02:29
AStorm	I suspect it is standard	02:30
AStorm	but connected to some weird bus, like SPI	02:30
penguinbait	I am a maemo-mapper advocate myself	02:30
AStorm	btw, the gpsdriver makes it look like a BT GPS	02:30
lcuk	i can barely talk ive got my own map here lol	02:30
* lcuk was banned from google maps whilst playing		02:30
AStorm	haha	02:30
AStorm	OpenStreet then?	02:31
luke-jr	AStorm: it's on a serial port UART	02:31
penguinbait	do they still offer the fre API?	02:31
luke-jr	lcuk: by using the GPS, I mean talking directly to the hardware	02:31
AStorm	luke-jr, so it has to be standard	02:31
luke-jr	AStorm: nope	02:31
luke-jr	AStorm: proprietary gpsdriver blob converts it to NMEA in userspace	02:31
AStorm	otherwise it's not a GPS, but some GPS-like whizbang	02:31
AStorm	YUCK.	02:31
lcuk	luke-jr, i thought all gps stuff was serial?	02:31
penguinbait	I used to be signed up through google and they allow you to create maps from them	02:31
luke-jr	AStorm: gpsd dev suspects it is a specially designed dsp ;)	02:31
lcuk	ie nothing has direct access to the hardware	02:31
AStorm	what idiot thought it's a good idea?	02:31
luke-jr	AStorm: TI	02:32
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AStorm	ah, you say it's another ARM7?	02:32
AStorm	nifty reuse	02:32
johnx	probably decided they could save some money	02:32
AStorm	still, the antenna is junk	02:32
luke-jr	to make it worse, the blob depends on GNOME libs and requires a user named "user"	02:32
AStorm	and the algorithm is junk too	02:32
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johnx	that's how these things start	02:32
penguinbait	http://code.google.com/apis/maps/	02:32
lcuk	yeah pb	02:32
AStorm	but, if it is ARM...	02:32
luke-jr	and Nokia refuses to modify/abstract the protocol even	02:33
lcuk	if i was gonna go further than an hour of curiosity i would do	02:33
AStorm	and we find out how to access the darned antenna	02:33
luke-jr	bbiab	02:33
lcuk	but its just something else i wanted to test	02:33
penguinbait	heh	02:33
AStorm	then we can make it suck much less	02:33
AStorm	TI NDAs suck	02:33
AStorm	a lot.	02:33
* lcuk senses automatic internet download and displaying is gonna be important		02:33
AStorm	luke-jr, what protocol?	02:34
AStorm	I suspect the gpsdriver is the gps.	02:34
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AStorm	just a few added opcodes to some generic ARM7	02:34
AStorm	just like the DSP	02:34
AStorm	or possibly like IVA2	02:34
AStorm	in OMAP3	02:34
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luke-jr	AStorm: GPS5300 proprietary protocol	02:36
AStorm	"protocol"	02:36
lcuk	if i just reupload my avatar does it get scaled yet	02:36
luke-jr	AStorm: what gpsdriver talks over the serial port	02:36
lcuk	im sick of peeking	02:36
AStorm	more like ARM7 instructions?	02:36
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luke-jr	AStorm: more like ttyS0 communications	02:37
AStorm	ah, you mean the bunch of data they're sending	02:37
luke-jr	AStorm: I haven't disassembled yet, but I see no reason it'd use instructions	02:37
AStorm	I'm talking what the gps actually is	02:37
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AStorm	I think the actual GPS is just a tiny app connected to the antenna	02:37
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AStorm	something extremely easy	02:37
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AStorm	then the real algorithms are in userspace	02:38
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AStorm	and that the actual GPS "propietary" protocol is implemented on another ARM subunit	02:39
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AStorm	a bunch of microcode, maybe	02:39
AStorm	now, getting at that w/o the docs might be close to impossible	02:40
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AStorm	"High performance: The GPS5300 NaviLink 4.0 solution enables a rapid time to first fix (TTFF) from weak satellite signals, exceeding the GPS requirements for 3GPP and 3GPP2 operation."	02:42
AStorm	ha,ha,ha	02:42
AStorm	yes, it is a simple software radio specialized for GPS	02:43
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lcuk	* NB requires a 12 foot antenna	02:43
johnx	heh. I thought you were laughing about the "rapid time to first fix" :)	02:44
AStorm	I was, and the other point too	02:44
AStorm	it is a dumb antenna	02:44
AStorm	so we could actually code better noise/echo rejection algorithm for it	02:44
lcuk	i wonder if using it in the car actually boosts the signal if placed correctly in the window	02:45
johnx	well, what did you expect them to say "The GPS5300 NaviLink 4.0 solution enables a painfully slow time to first fix, leaving your users frustrated and confused."?	02:45
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AStorm	funny there's no actual docs about it	02:47
jaska	well, thatd be truth in advertising :)	02:47
AStorm	propietary protocols of uselessness	02:47
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AStorm	it's not that bad I suspect, but n810 antenna is suboptimal	02:47
AStorm	and the software algorithms are... poor	02:48
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AStorm	to cut costs most of the "analog" path is actually digital components, increasing quantization noise	02:48
AStorm	"DRP: decreasing power usage at the cost of noise floor"	02:49
luke-jr	AStorm: to be fair, when A-GPS is working, gpsdriver got me a fix quite fast	02:50
AStorm	that's 5s in good conditions	02:50
luke-jr	no	02:51
luke-jr	5 sec max TTFF is impossible	02:51
AStorm	which is quite slow :)	02:51
AStorm	that's not max	02:51
AStorm	that min	02:51
luke-jr	ok	02:51
AStorm	max is infinity	02:51
luke-jr	…	02:51
luke-jr	max is 30s in ideal conditiosn	02:51
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AStorm	in building obscured clean weather conditions, I got like 30-45s	02:51
AStorm	which is not good, considering that fairly slow SIRF3 could go in 3s	02:52
AStorm	w/o AGPS	02:52
luke-jr	3s is impossible w/o AGPS…	02:52
AStorm	(MTK was instantaneous, btw)	02:52
AStorm	it is, because it caches last fix data	02:52
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luke-jr	that's AGPS	02:53
AStorm	that's not exactly AGPS	02:53
AStorm	close enough	02:53
AStorm	AGPS gives fresh ephemeris	02:53
luke-jr	that last fix data is very useful	02:53
AStorm	this thing extrapolates from old ephemeris	02:53
AStorm	yes, it is :)	02:53
luke-jr	oh!	02:53
luke-jr	interesting	02:53
luke-jr	got code for that? ;)	02:53
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AStorm	no, sorry, it's hardware!	02:53
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AStorm	:)	02:53
luke-jr	AStorm: hardware can't do that	02:54
AStorm	sure it can	02:54
luke-jr	firmware is not hardware	02:54
AStorm	whatever you say	02:54
AStorm	it is a DSP	02:54
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AStorm	ok, so it actually can "extend" ephemeris data to about 20h	02:55
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AStorm	I got tricked	02:55
AStorm	it wasn't a fresh fix then	02:55
AStorm	it was a "guess fix"	02:55
AStorm	(but AGPS is not a first fix either, really, heh)	02:56
AStorm	an actual first fix inside a building took 35s	02:57
AStorm	now, n810's can't do that	02:57
luke-jr	I get better fixes inside a building	02:57
luke-jr	mine can	02:57
luke-jr	depends on the building, of course	02:57
AStorm	yes, that was good old brick	02:57
AStorm	with thick walls	02:57
AStorm	some meters from windows	02:58
AStorm	I wonder how it resolved all the echos to get a 2D fix	02:58
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AStorm	anyway	02:59
AStorm	the TI chip is junk	02:59
Macer	hm	02:59
Macer	this toshiba laptop i got goes slow as shit :)	02:59
Macer	compared to the macbook	02:59
AStorm	it's not even that power-efficient	02:59
johnx	it's their low end chip. if they made it not crappy no one would buy a better one	02:59
johnx	this is the chip they use to upsell people :P	03:00
AStorm	not low end - it's just old	03:00
AStorm	:>	03:00
AStorm	Nokia got it as a part of a package deal	03:00
johnx	it's their cheapest one, isn't it?	03:00
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AStorm	you get OMAP2 with all the additional stuff	03:00
AStorm	johnx, nope	03:00
AStorm	there are cheaper ones	03:00
johnx	scary	03:00
johnx	even my $20 (with contract) phone gets a gps fix faster	03:01
AStorm	it probably has some older SIRF	03:01
AStorm	those are cheap	03:01
johnx	if course now it's not playing nice. heh.	03:02
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johnx	hey b-man	03:02
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b-man	hello, johnx :)	03:02
AStorm	meh, MTK kicks butt of all the other GPS receivers anyway	03:02
AStorm	but it's not a brand yet :)	03:02
johnx	this is the longest I've ever seen it take to get a fix. Must be performance anxiety ...	03:03
johnx	guess being stuck inside makes a difference :)	03:03
johnx	oh, it just saw a satellite	03:04
AStorm	yes it does	03:04
AStorm	n810's doesn't see a sat from here even with AGPS	03:04
AStorm	it's 3m to a window, brick building though, and a lot of electric noise	03:04
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locutus	AStorm: i havent even gotten GPS to work while standing outside in the field, on a unclouded day	03:08
locutus	AStorm: i stood there for 10 minutes, then it just felt to stupid to continue	03:09
AStorm	you mean n810's?	03:09
locutus	n810's internal one yes	03:09
AStorm	w/o AGPS it usually sucked	03:09
AStorm	you had to move for it to get a fix	03:09
locutus	agps?	03:09
AStorm	assisted - downloads ephemeris data from the internet	03:09
AStorm	(given approximate location)	03:10
locutus	tbh, i've just thrown a BT GPS in my backpack	03:10
AStorm	:)	03:10
locutus	it gets a fix in about 5 seconds	03:10
AStorm	which one btw?	03:10
* johnx needs to hack up my phone so my n800 can use its gps...		03:10
locutus	the wayfinder.com one	03:10
AStorm	mhm	03:10
AStorm	I think the internal GPS is lacking proper echo cancellation	03:11
AStorm	that's why when it's not moving, the times to fix are far longer	03:11
luke-jr	O.o?	03:12
AStorm	yes, they are	03:12
AStorm	on the move, slow, it fixes much faster	03:12
AStorm	where slow means like <30 km/h	03:12
AStorm	even walking around is enough	03:13
AStorm	heck, I had it fix (w/o AGPS) in my pocket after 20s	03:13
AStorm	just because I was walking	03:14
AStorm	which was similar to fix times w/ AGPS on	03:14
luke-jr	pretty sure AGPS-less in 20s is impossible	03:15
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AStorm	it is possible, if the ephemeris is received fine in first attempt	03:17
AStorm	(the receiver can grab that from a few sats at once)	03:17
AStorm	(that's how the better GPS chips get TTFF so fast)	03:18
luke-jr	AStorm: the ephemeris takes 14 minutes to receive	03:18
luke-jr	over GPS	03:18
AStorm	full, yes	03:18
luke-jr	from 1 sat	03:18
AStorm	but enough to get around, nope	03:19
luke-jr	O.o	03:19
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AStorm	you only need current position really	03:20
AStorm	so if you're lucky, a few sats will be broadcasting just that	03:21
luke-jr	hmm	03:21
AStorm	one sat ephemeris transmission takes about 30s	03:26
AStorm	http://www.satellitetrackingsystem.co.uk/satellite_tracking_software.htm - if you really have to know :)	03:27
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AStorm	so the minimum TTFF w/o the current almanac is 18s	03:35
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AStorm	if you happen to receive from at least 3 different sats the correct 3 subframes	03:35
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AStorm	w/ almanac you technically need only parts of subframes 2 and 3	03:38
AStorm	that's 6-12s	03:38
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* b-man HATES his POS connection >:(		03:45
GeneralAntilles	I've come to the conclusion that what penguinbait really wants is a mass email spaming for every little bit of community minutia that happens to come up.	03:45
GeneralAntilles	b-man, is it Comcast?	03:46
b-man	no, Version	03:47
GeneralAntilles	Ah, fun too.	03:47
johnx	GeneralAntilles, you still having problems with comcast? it's gotten worse here, but it's impossible to search google for anyone with similar problems	03:47
b-man	re: Verison	03:47
GeneralAntilles	Friend of mine got a 20/20 FiOS connection	03:47
johnx	...because there are too many people with problems...	03:47
GeneralAntilles	They dropped all connections every 15 minutes to keep people from running servers.	03:47
penguinbait	yeah GA	03:47
penguinbait	you pegged it	03:47
penguinbait	I want 5 mailing lists	03:47
b-man	hay penguinbait	03:47
penguinbait	40 webpages	03:47
penguinbait	50 wiki pages	03:48
GeneralAntilles	penguinbait, there are 3 mailing lists.	03:48
GeneralAntilles	johnx, dunno, I'm on Brighthouse now again.	03:48
penguinbait	http://maemo.org/community/mailing-lists/	03:48
penguinbait	looks like 5 to me	03:48
penguinbait	hey b-man	03:48
johnx	penguinbait, those last ones were supposed to be kept secret from users because it's a Nokia conspiracy though	03:49
GeneralAntilles	penguinbait, I see the assertion made that these things were never discussed on itT, yet when Tim provides several topic links to refute that claim his post goes ignored.	03:49
penguinbait	hey, you got to wag the dog	03:49
GeneralAntilles	penguinbait, the Newstyle testing thread was really quite long.	03:49
penguinbait	Nobody was saying that it was not discussed	03:50
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, that seems to be exactly what I'm reading.	03:50
penguinbait	we are just saying it better if more people know	03:50
GeneralAntilles	Your proposal seems to be spamming email for every possible thing anybody might possibly want to provide input on.	03:51
Macer	i went to the museum of science and industry today	03:51
Macer	i haven't been there since i was 6	03:51
Macer	it totally sucked :)	03:51
GeneralAntilles	There's a certain amount of due diligence required if you really want to input your opinion on every tiny thing.	03:51
Macer	they had soem sort of harry potter exibit .. and i had no idea what harry potter had to do with science or industry	03:52
penguinbait	GA, please go reread my first post	03:52
penguinbait	you seem to be confused	03:52
GeneralAntilles	The closing of the subforums was discussed rather extensively. There was plenty of opportunity to provide input, the thread was very visible on itT	03:52
penguinbait	so your saying you dont want community input GA?	03:52
GeneralAntilles	so where's your input?	03:52
penguinbait	I juat saw a thread started today, I gave my input	03:53
penguinbait	like it	03:53
GeneralAntilles	Only coming out now after a consensus has been reached and the work has been done.	03:53
penguinbait	?	03:53
penguinbait	You gonna be ok?	03:53
penguinbait	I responded to the post I saw	03:53
penguinbait	I apparently didnt see the other one	03:54
GeneralAntilles	I'm not really sure what to say, if you're the type of person who likes to have an opinion about stuff like this, then you should probably be following the places where discussions take place.	03:54
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penguinbait	I guess thats what happens, when you have a job, and four kids, you miss some shit	03:54
GeneralAntilles	Which is why the big stuff is aggregated to the council blog.	03:55
johnx	penguinbait, well, the onus isn't on other people to keep you informed. If you care, figure out how to keep up with this stuff.	03:55
penguinbait	Thanks for the input Johnx	03:55
Proteous	sometimes it's the shit that's right in the middle of the kitchen floor that you step on when you get up in the middle of the night to pee then think that getting a snack would be a good idea and then when you get into the kitchen and step in something soft and smelly the snack looses all appeal	03:56
penguinbait	I feel enlightened	03:56
GeneralAntilles	We can't play guessing games at what people are going to pitch fits over.	03:56
johnx	penguinbait, sure. any time. enlightenment on request, satisfaction guaranteed	03:56
Proteous	I pitch fits over small animals getting into my cat food supply, just so you don't have to guess	03:56
penguinbait	Look its a community, I am using my voice NOW to alter my community, and GA you are my inspiration	03:56
penguinbait	don't like, tough fing shit fellas	03:56
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GeneralAntilles	Input is generally solicited on -community or the maemo.org forum	03:57
penguinbait	Thanks for the input GA	03:57
penguinbait	I feel enlightened	03:57
GeneralAntilles	a peek into either about once or twice a week will keep you from missing anything you deem important.	03:57
johnx	penguinbait, you're definitely providing a lot of input, but I doubt it's going to accomplish much without being a little more constructive and civil	03:57
penguinbait	youd be surprised what is being accomplished	03:58
penguinbait	maybe some might even be mad? oh well	03:58
GeneralAntilles	A lot of negativity is being thrown around to little use is what it looks like to me.	03:58
johnx	here's what I see accomplished: People are getting stirred up. Someone will write a css theme to invert the colors	03:58
penguinbait	thats because its mostly coming from you GA	03:58
penguinbait	its easy to hear	03:58
johnx	this could have been accomplished just as well without creating this huge shit storm	03:59
luke-jr	LOL	03:59
penguinbait	woooo	03:59
* luke-jr flings some doo at johnx		03:59
* b-man wonders if it is worth releasing Pdisk for maemo - i allrety have it built		03:59
* johnx ignores luke-jr again		03:59
luke-jr	pfft	03:59
penguinbait	whats pdisk	03:59
luke-jr	you're all being way too serious ;P	03:59
b-man	penguinbait: Mac patition utility	04:00
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penguinbait	gui?	04:00
b-man	terminal	04:00
GeneralAntilles	penguinbait, I really don't have the energy to dig up a bunch of examples of posts from you that I believe are negative, but don't tell me you believe yourself to be squeaky clean here.	04:00
penguinbait	just command line or ncurses?	04:00
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penguinbait	good GA, because I dont want to read your crap	04:00
penguinbait	save it	04:00
GeneralAntilles	penguinbait, yeah, see that's negative.	04:01
johnx	heh	04:01
penguinbait	I called texrat a dick	04:01
penguinbait	look that up	04:01
b-man	command line - kinda like sfdisk	04:01
penguinbait	your being one too btw	04:01
b-man	lol	04:01
GeneralAntilles	I don't deny it at least.	04:01
GeneralAntilles	You, apparently, believe yourself to be complete faultless.	04:01
GeneralAntilles	s/complete/completely/	04:02
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: You, apparently, believe yourself to be completely faultless.	04:02
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penguinbait	when did I say I was faultless	04:02
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penguinbait	I never said I was Jesus	04:02
b-man	guys, guys, we don't need to fight :)	04:03
johnx	b-man++ :)	04:03
penguinbait	hey, lcuk said the channel was quiet	04:04
b-man	hehe	04:04
johnx	I don't think anyone's going to suddenly see eye-to-eye, here. Might as well just cool down...	04:04
penguinbait	I'm good	04:05
penguinbait	anyone else just dying to get some fresh hardware?	04:06
johnx	would be fun. means more work though ;)	04:06
* luke-jr flings some grilled chicken at b-man		04:06
penguinbait	I can't wait to get some more speed	04:06
luke-jr	b-man: let's turn this into a food fighjt	04:06
johnx	even a little more RAM would make me much happier.	04:06
penguinbait	me too	04:06
penguinbait	more ram	04:06
luke-jr	yeah	04:06
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luke-jr	128 MB creates problems trying to link qt-webkit :<	04:07
luke-jr	is N810 RAM solder-replacable?	04:07
penguinbait	not by me	04:07
luke-jr	:/	04:07
* b-man eats dinner		04:08
b-man	luke-jr: :P	04:08
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johnx	also looking forward to universal video playback	04:13
johnx	but I keep thinking about getting a bigger battery for my N800 to make it a real always-on mobile server	04:14
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GAN800	Do they offee bigger batteries?	04:19
GAN800	Beagles would be nice for that if they had better powersaving.	04:19
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johnx	you can get an expanded BP-5L kit for a different Nokia phone, but you'd be without a back cover at that point	04:20
johnx	I'm thinking of a gumstix with a 9-cell laptop battery on the back and a card that can do wifi hostap	04:21
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t2a	hello	04:21
johnx	hi t2a	04:21
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GAN800	Overo?	04:21
johnx	nah, I was just gonna go verdex. whatever has a CF slot	04:22
GAN800	Ah	04:22
GAN800	x86 seems like a bad plan	04:22
johnx	eh? verdex is xscale/pxa27x	04:22
GAN800	oh is it? nevermind then	04:22
johnx	same as the zaurus. good support, not too bad on power, can be clocked low and undervolted	04:22
GAN800	I don't pay much attention to Gumstux's lineup.	04:23
GAN800	s/ux/ix/	04:23
infobot	GAN800 meant: I don't pay much attention to Gumstix's lineup.	04:23
johnx	I look at it and get grand plans every couple months :)	04:23
johnx	never do anything with it though. heh	04:23
GAN800	$$?	04:23
johnx	it was in the past. soon it will be lack of time :)	04:23
t2a	How do you managed build error while crosscompiling dbus-glib please ? i would like to compile it for powrepc (sorry it out of topic) and i'm stuck with cannot execute binary file /home/gpg/build-tools/ltib/rpm/BUILD/dbus-glib-0.76/dbus/.libs/lt-dbus-binding-tool --prefix=some_object --mode=glib-server --output=example-service-glue.h ./example-service.xml	04:23
GAN800	er, how much for the board?	04:24
t2a	i would like to share your experience regarding this issue	04:24
johnx	t2a, considered building in qemu-system-ppc?	04:24
t2a	johnx, interesting	04:24
t2a	joelmaher, haven't tried yet	04:24
t2a	joelmaher, oops	04:25
joelmaher	t2a: np	04:25
johnx	not sure if that's an easy option, but it seems that during the build it's trying to run execute some intermediate ppc binary	04:25
t2a	johnx, no	04:25
t2a	johnx, yes of course	04:25
t2a	it uses those binaries to generate some header files	04:25
t2a	johnx, i cant use qemu-system-ppc but trying to figure if it's possible to call lt-dbus-binding-tool with qemu-ppc instead	04:26
johnx	looks like you might need to alter the build system, build natively on ppc, or build "natively" in qemu-system-ppc	04:26
johnx	you'd need to staticly link it, but maybe so	04:27
johnx	another thought is to look at how the OE/angstrom guys have altered the build system so that they can compile it	04:27
t2a	johnx, thank you (i like this chan)	04:27
johnx	no problem :)	04:28
johnx	GAN800, the overo looks very cool though	04:28
GAN800	johnx, not sure if its powersaving is better than the Beagle's or not.	04:30
johnx	powersaving is mostly a software thing IIUC	04:31
GAN800	Hardware clocks sucking juice all the time. Not sure if the DVI transceiver can be turned off, etc.	04:31
GAN800	To an extent	04:31
johnx	ah, well that is suboptimal :/	04:31
GAN800	Yeah	04:32
johnx	I'll wait for rev C to judge :)	04:32
GAN800	It's out, no different. ;)	04:32
johnx	either way I have a use for at least one beagle board in my head already	04:32
johnx	it is? shipping?	04:32
GAN800	For a while now	04:32
t2a	johnx, have seen some no-example patches on theit website :) thank you again, i've completely forgot oe project :)	04:33
johnx	sure. they're a really good source for patches, even if I don't use angstrom on anything right now :>	04:33
johnx	eep, gotta run though. just saw the time O_o	04:33
johnx	'later all	04:33
Macer	it's about time house tapped cutty	04:37
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fireun	Macer: but does he stop hallucinating?	04:55
penguinbait	anyone tried the handwriting calculator?	04:57
b-man	yup	04:57
penguinbait	looks sweet I am grabbing it now	04:57
b-man	it's ok	04:57
b-man	:)	04:58
luke-jr	b-man: Yandere?	04:58
b-man	shure lol	04:58
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Bobbe	Hey guys, just a general poll here. What soft do you use to share your media with your n8x0 over wifi? (I'm in Windows XP)	04:59
* b-man really HATES his P.O.S connection >:(		05:03
* b-man really HATES his P.O.S connection >:(		05:03
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b-man	(sorry if i double posted)	05:03
Bobbe	what's P.O.S?	05:05
b-man	(piece of shit) lol	05:05
Bobbe	lmao	05:06
Bobbe	live and learn	05:06
Bobbe	I'm having trouble with my wifi too, but I seriously think it's my router	05:06
* b-man isn't using his router atm		05:08
Bobbe	what's wrong with your connection?	05:08
b-man	it's verry unstable	05:08
Bobbe	3g here. u could be worse :\|	05:08
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b-man	heh	05:09
b-man	true	05:09
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Bobbe	damn thing won't work on linux for love or money	05:10
Bobbe	jesus	05:11
Bobbe	this home media server canola recommends is one big P.O.S	05:11
Bobbe	(hah!)	05:11
b-man	lol	05:11
Bobbe	this guy in itt wrote this neat little script that converts and streams to his n800 on-the-fly	05:12
Bobbe	all I wanted was something that did that in windoze	05:13
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tank-man	Bobbe, ive heard of tversity on winxp that a lot of ps3/xbox360 users use to stream	05:21
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tank-man	upnp and all	05:21
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Bobbe	dling it now, will test it. Thanks tank-man	05:23
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Proteous	bobbe, I use TVersity	05:34
Proteous	to stream to my n810, it works great	05:35
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Proteous	there is even a n8x and n7x encoding setting	05:35
Bobbe	u use the canola version?	05:37
Bobbe	I mean	05:37
Bobbe	do u access it via canola?	05:37
Bobbe	Proteous, when you select the N800 as the device, will it convert to the n8x0 screen size automatically?	05:42
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Proteous	sorry	05:50
Proteous	you can browse via UPNP from the tablets built in file browser	05:51
Proteous	which is what I use, but any software the supports UPNP servers will work	05:51
Proteous	as far as the screen size, I think I adjusted mine	05:51
Proteous	let me check	05:51
Proteous	hmm	05:51
Proteous	he's gone	05:52
CutMeOwnThroat	the cheek of it	05:52
CutMeOwnThroat	I normally rely on autocomplete to tell me	05:52
CutMeOwnThroat	and still people trick me	05:52
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luke-jr	wow, my N810 got lucky	06:10
luke-jr	TTFF < 1 min	06:10
Proteous	TTFF?	06:10
luke-jr	Time To First Fix (GPS)	06:11
Proteous	heh	06:11
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LiraNuna	is the TTFF long because of software or hardware?	06:38
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luke-jr	LiraNuna: software	06:50
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LiraNuna	luke-jr, and gps is closed source, right?	07:05
luke-jr	LiraNuna: yes	07:06
LiraNuna	chipset known?	07:06
luke-jr	TI GPS5300	07:06
LiraNuna	oh, did you guys heard about the Samsung Mondi?	07:09
LiraNuna	looks like a ripoff to me -> http://liranuna.com/junk/mondi_n810.jpg	07:11
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Bobbe	tank-man, thanks	07:17
Bobbe	exactly what I was looking for	07:17
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luke-jr	I thought Qt Mapper was a port of Maemo Mapper.. why does it have practically no functionality? :/	09:18
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thux	morning	09:22
* thux would like to try flashrom in my lap but no coreboot.bins available :P		09:24
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ZakkmN800	chatting from nokia n800 is hard	09:26
Stskeeps	yeah, sometimes	09:27
johnx	need a keyboard :)	09:27
luke-jr	heh	09:27
ZakkmN800	i have one its attached to pc though i gota f to f adapter	09:28
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* RST38h moos		09:34
Stskeeps	moo Robot101	09:35
Stskeeps	er.	09:35
Stskeeps	RST38h	09:35
RST38h	heya sts, all	09:35
johnx	morning RST38h	09:35
* Stskeeps glances at the rs232 connector pics		09:36
RST38h	male or female part?	09:36
RST38h	(sorry had to ask that =))	09:37
Stskeeps	hehe	09:37
Stskeeps	well i asked them if there was a console connector on the board, and turns out there is :) sent me 4 high res pics of their solution for it, heh	09:37
RST38h	there usually is, sometimes two	09:38
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johnx	two consoles at once? what would that be like? :D	09:38
Stskeeps	and the device even can boot from boot sector on a SD	09:38
RST38h	whose SoC are they using anyway?	09:38
Stskeeps	smdk6410	09:38
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Stskeeps	is what it seems to be modelled on	09:39
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* Stskeeps wonders if it's possible to tap into the ethernet or IDE.		09:39
RST38h	either would require external circuitry	09:39
Stskeeps	yeah, obviously	09:40
ZakkmN800	woahh usb keyboardd :)	09:40
ZakkmN800	Gotta love the f-f adapter.	09:40
ZakkmN800	lots of wires though :(	09:41
RST38h	thats samsung...	09:41
Stskeeps	yeah	09:41
ZakkmN800	Stskeeps: you got home yet to try the smartq?	09:42
Stskeeps	ZakkmN800: long ago. runs mer already	09:42
ZakkmN800	yo guys, i pressed some button and now i seem to have spellcheck popped up?	09:42
ZakkmN800	what just happened/ what i press	09:42
Stskeeps	ZakkmN800: took me less than 24 hours to port it	09:42
ZakkmN800	i dont know what i pressed :( i want it gone :(	09:43
ZakkmN800	and thats cool, full support?	09:43
Stskeeps	i'm missing 3-4 things and i have a fully open source firmware	09:43
ZakkmN800	Stskeeps, did you benchmark it yet ?	09:44
Stskeeps	not yet	09:44
ZakkmN800	to see how well it compares to nokia tablet?	09:44
Stskeeps	nokia tablet has advantages in speaker and double-sd	09:44
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Stskeeps	and the fact nokia doesn't die when charger is taken out :)	09:45
ZakkmN800	the smartq dies?	09:45
ZakkmN800	mer thing or bad device?	09:45
Stskeeps	charger circuit fault on first batch	09:45
Stskeeps	but works fine on battery after that	09:45
ZakkmN800	heh thats weird :)	09:45
Stskeeps	i have their firmware maker, rs232 console access, console, boot-from-SD, etc	09:46
ZakkmN800	also i find it weird it says usb device not supported, yet keyboard works fine ;p	09:46
ZakkmN800	it looks nicer than the tablets	09:46
ZakkmN800	well n810 looks better, but cant afford that :)	09:46
ZakkmN800	would make a nice alternate i think, having alot of mer devices	09:47
Stskeeps	also, n8x0 had dpad.	09:47
Stskeeps	and esc buttn etc.	09:47
Stskeeps	i miss that.	09:47
ZakkmN800	what esc button?	09:47
Stskeeps	the back button?	09:48
ZakkmN800	oh	09:48
ZakkmN800	i think esc as like ¨ëxit¨	09:48
ZakkmN800	ör close	09:48
ZakkmN800	the smartq is at a nice price too	09:49
Stskeeps	i wouldn't mind a couple of them around my house really	09:50
Stskeeps	oh, it does suspend to ram too	09:50
ZakkmN800	the nokia should do that too i think	09:51
ZakkmN800	shouldnt it?	09:51
ZakkmN800	why doesnt it?	09:51
Stskeeps	it does but this one it seems to work nicley	09:51
Stskeeps	anyway, i gotta head to class soon	09:52
ZakkmN800	in school?	09:52
Stskeeps	finishing my masters degree	09:52
ZakkmN800	oh wow	09:52
ZakkmN800	that must take long.	09:52
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Stskeeps	6 years (i am one year behind)	09:53
ZakkmN800	wow	09:53
ZakkmN800	and to think my post secondary education will only be 2-3 years :)	09:53
Stskeeps	hehe	09:53
ZakkmN800	most likely less	09:53
Stskeeps	the 6 years go fast.	09:53
ZakkmN800	(in last grade of highschool)	09:54
ZakkmN800	1/3 of my life :)	09:54
Stskeeps	heh, i'm turning 25 and then im done with university and school, hopefully forever	09:56
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Stskeeps	was thinking of pursuing a phd but now i'm just dead tired of school.	09:56
ZakkmN800	i dont understand how people going for doctor and stuff do it	09:57
ZakkmN800	a good friend is mine is in uni now to become a surgeon, and im just thinking way too much school	09:57
ZakkmN800	this is so cool, n800 + xchat + usb keyboard	09:58
ZakkmN800	maybe i should get a bluetooth keyboard or soemthing, use in school	09:59
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X-Fade	Morning	10:46
StsN801	morn X-Fade	10:47
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* X-Fade is thinking of distilling this QA discussion in a wiki page.		10:52
X-Fade	And then come up with a concrete plan of actually implementing the thing.	10:52
timeless_mbp	QA?	10:53
timeless_mbp	what's that?	10:53
X-Fade	timeless_mbp: Exactly ;)	10:53
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timeless_mbp	is it where people say "i don't think this is my bug, lemme give it to the next guy", the next guy says "oh, it's not my bug, invalid", the reporter says "but i didn't say it was your bug reopen", first guy "what priority should this have?", "please set a priority"	10:54
timeless_mbp	engineer who ignored qa "oh, i already fixed something like this (by doing the opposite of what was asked here, already fixed"	10:54
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timeless_mbp	qa "reporter, please verify this urgently"	10:55
X-Fade	timeless_mbp: Well, I guess we will start with: Works vs Doesn't work ;)	10:55
timeless_mbp	with or without specs specifying what's expected? :)	10:55
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timeless_mbp	btw, in case it wasn't obvious, while what i described above happens, it isn't QA, it's people who have been given a funny hat with "Quirky Actor" written on it (the lowercase letters are so small that no one can read them)	10:56
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RST38h	X-Fade: What discussion?	11:07
RST38h	X-Fade: Are there changes to bug processing coming?	11:07
X-Fade	RST38h: -developers	11:08
RST38h	ah	11:08
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RST38h	Shit, the maemo community page is a total mess :(	11:08
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RST38h	Funny how none of the committee members thought of placing stuff that is actually being USED on top	11:09
RST38h	X-Fade: "QA from extras-devel to extras-testing" ?	11:11
X-Fade	RST38h: Yes.	11:11
johnx	thought the quality on extras was actually pretty good	11:12
RST38h	X-Fade: I agree with Matan that the whole discussion is ominous	11:12
X-Fade	johnx: Well yes and no.	11:12
RST38h	Current Extras are pretty good as they are	11:12
X-Fade	There are still some packages that are presenting themselves as user packages, but actually are not.	11:13
RST38h	X-Fade: Then deal with them on one-to-one basis	11:13
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X-Fade	Mostly issues that could be spotted by some automated process and fixed by the developer when he/she even knew about it.	11:13
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RST38h	Automatic scan + email + check for changes + removal if changes are not applied in 1 month time	11:14
X-Fade	And people are now able to upload system libs for instance, which breaks everything.	11:14
RST38h	Also easy to check, if you have a list of base packages from Nokia	11:14
X-Fade	So it is not to make it hard to upload, just some sanity checks really.	11:15
RST38h	All this can be made invisible to the uploaders, no need for formal QA procedures	11:15
X-Fade	Uploading an application which doesn't install doesn't make much sense.	11:15
X-Fade	And then there is testing the actual application.	11:16
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johnx	jeez, it's almost like you're trying to hit the reliability of a mobile phone OS or something :P	11:18
X-Fade	johnx: Well, isn't that the eventual goal anyway? Now we are targetting tech people, but shouldn't we be targetting your mother in step 5?	11:19
johnx	hey, stay away from my mom. you're not even my real dad :P	11:19
X-Fade	Heh ;)	11:19
X-Fade	Just so say, we need to start somewhere to make it easy for the real end-users.	11:20
johnx	I'm all for it, just make real sure you don't chase away the power users and devs :)	11:21
X-Fade	And if someone managed to promote a sdl lib which breaks all games, this kind of kills the experience for most people.	11:21
X-Fade	johnx: Powerusers should just enable extras-devel and be living on the edge always?	11:21
RST38h	X-Fade: There are basically two ways to do it	11:22
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RST38h	X-Fade: You can either let people upload more or less freely, run some automatic checks, and leave the rest to the Tentacled One	11:22
RST38h	X-Fade: Or you can assume Tentacled One's duties yourself (or delegate to some QA cabal) in which case the Extras will stay sparkling clean but people will start creating their own repos again	11:23
X-Fade	RST38h: Well there are multiple levels in this.	11:23
johnx	X-Fade, I think you might have something with a three tiered system actually. devel -> testing -> extras. extras-devel is scary/b0rken enough that even power users stay away	11:24
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RST38h	X-Fade: So it seems, but there is a threshold anyway	11:24
timeless_mbp	hey, does vpnc still work in mer?	11:24
X-Fade	Developers would like their application to be available for everybody, and extras will be enabled by default.	11:24
RST38h	X-Fade: And whatever level you take, it will fall either above or below the threshold	11:24
X-Fade	If a developer doesn't care, he can provide the package any way he likes. He will not get the same amount of downloads.	11:25
RST38h	X-Fade: Well, my guess is that with the open source stuff where developers are not making money, most of them will not care.	11:25
johnx	or certainly care a lot less	11:25
X-Fade	RST38h: You have to think of what the goal is of a developer.	11:25
RST38h	X-Fade: they simply won't got with the Extras distribution	11:25
X-Fade	If you develop software, you want people to use it?	11:25
RST38h	X-Fade: I am a developer, I know what my goal is.	11:26
X-Fade	Or do you only develop for yourself?	11:26
X-Fade	Those are 2 completly different goals.	11:26
glass	X-Fade: some, make that many, oss devs don't really care about if anyone uses it or not	11:26
RST38h	X-Fade: And, as a developer, I can assure you that most free software developers do it for themselves	11:26
johnx	X-Fade, there are shades of grey in between	11:26
glass	X-Fade: and that gets us to what sucks about certain open projects	11:26
RST38h	X-Fade: And of course they all love other people using it, but not to the point of eating red tape	11:26
johnx	"I'd like to share, but if you make this too hard, then I'll post it on a forum and get on to the next cool hack."	11:26
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X-Fade	johnx: Well, if everybody can download it easily, it certainly is an advantage for the developer?	11:27
RST38h	X-Fade: Only if they pay money :)	11:27
RST38h	X-Fade: Besides, they can download it just as easily from his own repo	11:27
X-Fade	A developer who doesn't care about people using it, will probably not make great software anyway?	11:27
glass	some devs like that people use their soft even if it doesn't make money. just having users is motivating	11:27
RST38h	X-Fade: not true	11:27
RST38h	X-Fade: there are examples against that	11:27
X-Fade	RST38h: Why would you even publish your software if you don't care about people using it?	11:28
johnx	X-Fade, there's a certain amount of effort devs are willing to go through, and when the threshold is too high, they give up	11:28
glass	RST38h: name a few	11:28
RST38h	X-Fade: Because I have written it already	11:28
RST38h	glass: FAR	11:28
RST38h	X-Fade: Why not publish it?	11:28
glass	far?	11:28
X-Fade	RST38h: Yeah, but why do you want people to use it?	11:28
RST38h	glass: Search for far manager	11:28
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RST38h	X-Fade: I do not want people to use it, I let people use it	11:29
RST38h	X-Fade: See the difference?	11:29
glass	RST38h: far managers site is built so that it seems they want people to use it(care about it)	11:29
RST38h	glass: Look at the date the last update came out	11:29
johnx	just look at all the stuff that's already on ITT but not extras	11:29
X-Fade	Everytime you publish something, you do an active thing.	11:29
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RST38h	X-Fade: Again not true	11:30
johnx	piles of qwerty12's stuff was there (he did put it in extras once that got easier). Tear is ITT only for now	11:30
glass	RST38h: ach. dunno. the app still looks like he cared that people would use it	11:30
RST38h	X-Fade: You mistake the act of putting somethign online with attention whoring	11:30
X-Fade	johnx: Those are code drops labeled, worksforme but beware ;)	11:30
RST38h	glass: It is an excellent app	11:30
RST38h	glass: Not being very much cared for though	11:30
johnx	X-Fade, and they're more stable than some other things in extras ;)	11:30
X-Fade	johnx: Well then people can install it from there.	11:31
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RST38h	X-Fade: They can, destroying the idea of a single repo	11:31
X-Fade	But they will go to some warnings before installing in Fremantle.	11:31
* RST38h has no problem with clicking on a warning		11:31
johnx	exactly. because those devs 1) wanted people to use their software, but 2) didn't want to put in the effort to push to extras or extras-devel	11:31
X-Fade	RST38h: Well if you care about that, then you should upload to that single repo.	11:31
RST38h	X-Fade: Care about what? A single repo? I do not	11:32
X-Fade	Again, this is not about makeing it harder to upload. Just to get a better quality end result.	11:32
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RST38h	X-Fade: It is a nice-to-have, not a must-have	11:32
johnx	X-Fade, ok, I get that. It was just a friendly suggestion from me to be careful down this road not to put in any more roadblocks than absolutely necessary	11:32
X-Fade	johnx: Those are the same developers that drop of the net regularly.	11:33
RST38h	X-Fade: Anyways, just to make my opinion known to the higher ups:	11:33
RST38h	X-Fade: 1) Implement some common sense automated checks and remove stuff that does not pass them	11:33
X-Fade	RST38h: To me is as high as you get and I'm at the same level as you are ;)	11:33
RST38h	X-Fade: 2) If a trusted 3rd party repo is absolutely needed, create a new one or promote packages into existing Nokia repo for 3rd party software	11:33
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X-Fade	RST38h: This is maemo.org, not Nokia.	11:34
X-Fade	We're not talking about Ovi store here.	11:34
RST38h	X-Fade: Well, you can always either talk to Nokia about it or create a new repo	11:34
woglinde	hi	11:34
RST38h	X-Fade: Oh, I was talking about that weird 3rd party software repo that Nokia already has enabled	11:34
X-Fade	RST38h: This has nothing to do with nokia. It is what we want.	11:34
RST38h	X-Fade: The one with skype etc	11:35
X-Fade	RST38h: Those are Nokia commercial partners. Nothing to do with maemo.org	11:35
RST38h	X-Fade: But nothing prevents Nokia from creating a free subbranch of that repo and adding checked packages there	11:35
RST38h	X-Fade: It will be both technically and logically correct	11:35
X-Fade	We, the community, get one repository on every device which is enabled by default.	11:36
X-Fade	This is Extras.	11:36
woglinde	g	11:36
X-Fade	Every other repository we add can be for hard-core users, no problem.	11:36
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RST38h	X-Fade: Well, then leave only checked packages in Extras and create a new repo for all the advanced users that is disabled by default	11:37
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RST38h	X-Fade: Just not call it Extras-devel which is a terrible mess	11:37
johnx	RST38h, extras-testing?	11:37
RST38h	Extras-Community	11:37
RST38h	or something like that	11:37
X-Fade	RST38h: This is what extras-testing is proposed for?	11:38
RST38h	X-Fade: You have to expect that most packages will be stored in that repo permanently, so no "testing" in the name	11:38
RST38h	X-Fade: I.e. it will completely replace the current Extras	11:38
X-Fade	RST38h: It won't as 99% of our downloads will still be from Extras ;)	11:39
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RST38h	X-Fade: It will, you will see	11:39
RST38h	X-Fade: See discussion above	11:39
X-Fade	RST38h: Community members are such a small drop in the total users count.	11:40
woglinde	g	11:40
RST38h	X-Fade: It does not matter really. What matters is that once you fence off Extras, developers will stop trying to get there	11:41
X-Fade	Most people will just download through the Application Manager, maemo.nokia.com or downloads catalog.	11:41
RST38h	So, in order to keep developers in a single repo, you will need a permanent alternative to Extras	11:41
RST38h	Whether this alternative will be created by maemo.org or some rogue developer is up to you :)	11:42
X-Fade	RST38h: Most developers are not like you ;)	11:42
RST38h	X-Fade: Oh, really? :)	11:42
RST38h	X-Fade: Check out penguinbait's rants on ITT :)	11:42
X-Fade	Anyway, Fremantle will have signed downloads presented differently.	11:42
johnx	place your bets now gentlemen :)	11:43
* RST38h is actually quite sane as far as averages go =)		11:43
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RST38h	Actually, creating a new repo called Stars and enabling it by default in Fremantle may satisfy everybody	11:44
johnx	actually, in my mind, that would make a lot more sense	11:44
RST38h	Yep	11:44
RST38h	It will both look nice to the end users and create a sense of elitism for those who DO get into it	11:45
johnx	for people who want to push the polish of their app, they have something to shoot for	11:45
RST38h	Exactly	11:45
X-Fade	Well, I think that Extr can easily serve that role. Without to many hassle for developers.	11:45
johnx	for people who just want to share what they have and move on, Extras	11:45
RST38h	X-Fade: You won't be able to do what you want to accomplish without hassle	11:46
RST38h	X-Fade: And even if you have got a plan, some more managerial-minded characters will insist on lots of red tape	11:46
X-Fade	RST38h: We're talking about things like automatic time delayed promotion.	11:47
X-Fade	And only removing the package when there are serious problems.	11:47
RST38h	X-Fade: Ah, automatic would be ok, but the mailing list was talking abuot a QA team, 10 approvals, with even a single non-approval disabling promotion	11:47
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X-Fade	RST38h: 10 approvals or time delayed if nobody tested it.	11:48
X-Fade	So it will only speed promotion up if people test it.	11:48
RST38h	X-Fade: time delayed by what amount?	11:48
X-Fade	RST38h: to be determined	11:48
RST38h	X-Fade: But this is the important part	11:48
johnx	RST38h, 1 miiiiillion years	11:48
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X-Fade	RST38h: Say a 2 week timeout. And when x amount of people thumb up, direct.	11:49
RST38h	X-Fade: It is a difference between "ok, lemme upload it and wait" and "lemme just publish it on ITT while it is waiting for approval"	11:49
timeless_mbp	what happens if 1 person thumbs down? :)	11:49
X-Fade	And we can even build up a certain trust level.	11:49
X-Fade	timeless_mbp: We can check which person it is ;)	11:49
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X-Fade	And if one person flags down, the debmaster needs to check it himself.	11:50
X-Fade	Everything else will just go through?	11:50
RST38h	X-Fade: Does not sound like a good idea, really. Sounds like an attempt to break something not broken	11:50
X-Fade	RST38h: It is just to stabilize it a bit.	11:50
RST38h	X-Fade: So I would suggest a new repo called Stars and enabled by default, with promotion process up to public consideration	11:51
X-Fade	If someone promotes a broken package now, Extras is instantly broken.	11:51
RST38h	Well, automatically check package dependencies	11:51
X-Fade	RST38h: Sure, but what about a broken post-install?	11:51
RST38h	And contents too, so that it does not overwrite other packages	11:51
X-Fade	Yeah, so there are multiple things to test.	11:52
RST38h	X-Fade: well, I can suggets a way to check THAT too, but it is messy	11:52
RST38h	X-Fade: So in this case it may be better to just let it be	11:52
X-Fade	And then there is: drains battery in 4 hours because it installs a deamon.	11:52
RST38h	And then there is: shows nude women every 15 minutes	11:53
X-Fade	Things like that can be spotted by manual installs.	11:53
X-Fade	RST38h: ;)	11:53
RST38h	And then there is: contains the lyrics of Jignle Bells (copyrighted)	11:53
RST38h	And then there is: calls maemo community council member an idiot, in high-pitched gay voice	11:53
johnx	RST38h, which app is that, with the nude women? I need to test that ... to protect the users...	11:53
RST38h	Are you gonna filter THEm ALL? :)	11:53
RST38h	johnx: ! Here is the first business model for NIT software =)	11:54
johnx	pygtkPicturesOfGirls?	11:54
RST38h	Was that AStorm who insisted that selfless people can't be evil? :)	11:55
RST38h	johnx: hell, I was just going to suggest python for that =)	11:55
suihkulokki	Isn't microb the app with all the nude women?	11:55
johnx	please feed a crumpled up 5 dollar bill into the sd card slot to continue	11:55
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RST38h	X-Fade: BTW, if you want to make sure nobody pushes a virus through postinst, let me know	11:58
johnx	RST38h, you've developed a turing oracle?	11:58
RST38h	X-Fade: there is an automatic way to check for that although you may not like the complexity of it	11:58
RST38h	johnx: ah it is way simpler	11:58
X-Fade	Well we have no kill switch to kill the app on a user's device.	11:59
X-Fade	The only thing we can do is remove it from the repo.	11:59
RST38h	you do have it	11:59
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X-Fade	Or offer an updated version ;)	12:00
RST38h	push a system update that diables the app	12:00
RST38h	or that	12:00
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X-Fade	But that still requires the user to do something.	12:00
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johnx	I hope it doesn't reach the point where we're putting out fires like that already... :/	12:00
RST38h	yea, requires him to run system update	12:04
RST38h	or install it from app manager	12:04
timeless_mbp	suihkulokki: yep	12:04
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timeless_mbp	johnx: if you want to test, try http://timeless.justdave.net/stress/stress.html	12:04
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timeless_mbp	X-Fade: you have to offer a package 'maemo-blacklist'	12:05
timeless_mbp	which is updated periodically and conflicts with other packages which are blacklisted	12:05
johnx	to see how the browser deals with scrolling huge images?	12:05
timeless_mbp	johnx: well... to see how the browser deals w/ a lot of images	12:06
johnx	timeless_mbp, not sure how apt would behave in that situation	12:06
timeless_mbp	(i.e. running out of memory)	12:06
X-Fade	timeless_mbp: Indeed, that can be one solution.	12:06
johnx	you could probably do some really "clever" apt pinning to make the conflicting app always chosen	12:06
timeless_mbp	you need to make sure it works of course	12:07
johnx	wow, that's a lot of images	12:08
johnx	keeping firefox plenty busy on my desktop	12:09
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suihkulokki	we already trust that apt doesn't remove osso-software-version I guess the maemo-blacklist would be protected the same way	12:10
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X-Fade	suihkulokki: Well is can remove o-s-v easily ;)	12:11
johnx	you mean as soon as someone uses apt-get instead of h-a-m it's history?	12:11
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suihkulokki	ah, so o-s-v is just to protect endusers, not geeks :)	12:12
X-Fade	suihkulokki: yep. there is an o-s-v-unlocked for geeks too.	12:12
johnx	timeless_mbp, will check how tear handles that in a couple minutes	12:13
timeless_mbp	johnx: grading system 1. Fail if device reboots	12:13
timeless_mbp	i've killed a number of boxes running various os's w/ that page	12:14
timeless_mbp	a bunch of phones, an oqo, a fbsd box (years ago)	12:14
RST38h	johnx: I do not consider this a catastrophe really	12:14
RST38h	johnx: As long as there is a way to quickly remedy any problems, should be fine	12:15
johnx	yeah, not a big deal, just had to comment about trusting apt not to remove o-s-v	12:16
RST38h	suihkulokki: Funny, I have just removed osso-software-version with apt =)	12:16
X-Fade	RST38h: Only matters if you want software updates ;)	12:17
RST38h	johnx: It can probably be protected by some means, for example it can create some files in postinst that apt won't know about	12:17
X-Fade	*firmare	12:17
X-Fade	Yeah, great typing today... ;)	12:18
RST38h	X-Fade: see above =)	12:18
johnx	RST38h, there's easier ways, but it's mildly intrusive (read: annoying) to power users	12:18
RST38h	johnx: yea, but o=s=v I can live with, personally	12:18
RST38h	johnx: As long as there is an unofficial way to get around it in dire need of course :)	12:18
johnx	RST38h, you just tell apt: always resolve deps in such a way that this package stays installed. It's called pinning	12:19
RST38h	johnx: But THIS can be overridden with apt options, not?	12:19
johnx	only if you're very explicit about what you want to do, which I belive is the goal	12:19
johnx	right now it's set up so that apt will remove o-s-v at the drop of a hat	12:20
johnx	to change the pinning you edit the config file -or- directly specify some really long-ass option on the apt command line	12:21
RST38h	Should work then	12:21
johnx	we were getting people on itt who knew how to use apt-get but were confused about why it wanted to remove o-s-v	12:21
johnx	it would actually be nice if that was just a little bit harder :)	12:21
RST38h	If people continue freaking it out, just create files in postinst	12:22
RST38h	Then there truly won't be a way to kill it with apt	12:22
johnx	RST38h, nah, that's intrusive beyond reason. Then you're just fighting users, not guiding them	12:22
RST38h	johnx: it is just one spot, with good reasons for it	12:22
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RST38h	For this single spot, I have no problems	12:23
johnx	right but "apt-get --I-really-want-to-break-my-shit install b0rken-package" should be enough I think	12:23
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johnx	no need to have that succeed then have some postinst go and remove b0rken-package after it's already messed things up	12:24
johnx	plus it's nice to not bastardize apt more than is strictly necessary	12:25
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RST38h	Maybe...	12:26
RST38h	of course nothing like this is gonna happen, we will just get Extras all redtaped =(	12:26
johnx	eh, like rats from a sinking ship, jump into Mer. :D	12:27
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johnx	this is why they don't let me do marketing...	12:27
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RST38h	Mer isn't an exit strategy	12:29
StsN801	off the plank, yarr!	12:29
dl9pf	StsN801: moin	12:29
johnx	RST38h, correct, but I couldn't resist the pun :>	12:30
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* RST38h is trying to fix a test case =(		12:46
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StsN801	http://www.pocketables.net/2009/05/smartq-7-internet-tablet-mid-revealed.html	13:01
X-Fade	StsN801: Photoshop release?	13:02
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StsN801	X-Fade, fullscreen webbrowser prolly	13:06
X-Fade	StsN801: No, I meant that the whole device is rendered.	13:07
StsN801	their q7 does have a 7" lcd though	13:07
StsN801	so there might be smth to their rendering	13:07
StsN801	the q5 is surprisingly smooth and well designed	13:08
StsN801	as is the box	13:08
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roope	4500mAh is a big-ass battery.	13:20
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StsN801	yeah	13:20
StsN801	im not sure its for more than couch surfing / laptop like use	13:21
StsN801	the q5 has 2000mah	13:21
roope	7 inch for me is a dead size. If I want to couch surf, I get my 15" laptop.	13:22
roope	Then again, 7 inch is awkward size to carry. It should be either bigger or then smaller.	13:22
Shadow__X	its hard to find a good common ground	13:22
Shadow__X	because as things get bigger just get a real laptop	13:22
StsN801	my laptop gets too hot for couch surfing	13:22
Shadow__X	personally i cant use a 7-10 inch laptop	13:23
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Shadow__X	i plan to get a macbook to replace everyday uses	13:23
StsN801	a fully hackable 7" tablet is interesting though	13:23
Shadow__X	and possible get a new tablet	13:23
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radic	where are the words for the auto completation stored?	13:47
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lcuk	roope, 7" is very nice size for a photo frame for your grandparents though	14:09
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RST38h	Stskeeps <--- stealthily trying to make me buy a SmartQ with all this stuff =)	14:19
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Stskeeps	RST38h: hehe	14:20
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lcuk	Stskeeps, its lacking in a few essential features tho	14:21
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* lcuk really likes the basic idea :)		14:21
Stskeeps	lcuk: like?	14:21
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lcuk	camera, keyboard	14:23
Stskeeps	ah	14:23
Stskeeps	yeah	14:23
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Robot101	Stskeeps: moo to you too :P	14:27
Stskeeps	Robot101: sorry :)	14:27
Stskeeps	lack of coffee and tab completion isn't good	14:27
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Robot101	:)	14:28
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xnt	FAIL: http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/06/smartq-7-is-an-internet-tablet-with-dedicated-fn/	14:59
Stskeeps	uh. :P	15:00
xnt	:P	15:00
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* xnt would take a 770 over this any day		15:01
lcuk	wheres the Fn in that	15:01
Stskeeps	xnt: i actually have a smartq 5 MID.	15:01
Stskeeps	it's so hackable.	15:01
lcuk	showoff!	15:01
xnt	can it run, ume?	15:02
Stskeeps	xnt: it runs ubuntu by standard, runs mer, etc	15:02
Stskeeps	the screen on the Q7 is the same as on some Asus EEE	15:02
* xnt researches...		15:02
Stskeeps	search SmartQ on iTT	15:03
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Stskeeps	but yeah, Fn key is a bit mysterious..	15:03
xnt	0.o	15:04
Stskeeps	trust me, you'd take this one over a 770 ;)	15:04
Stskeeps	(the q7)	15:04
Stskeeps	except if you love your dpad :P	15:04
xnt	ok :)	15:04
xnt	is it x86?	15:05
Stskeeps	no, arm	15:05
Stskeeps	(the q5 i mean)	15:05
xnt	so h ave you gotten mer on it?	15:05
Stskeeps	yeah	15:05
xnt	:)	15:05
Stskeeps	the q7 is similar hw	15:05
xnt	Run Fremantle on it :P, it has a gpu	15:06
Stskeeps	yes, but no 3d drivers	15:06
xnt	:(	15:06
Stskeeps	get me a person with a samsung nda, heh	15:06
xnt	lol	15:06
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xnt	http://fuckingnda.com/	15:07
xnt	oh wait that doesn't work anymore :P	15:07
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xnt	how much is it?	15:08
* xnt reads http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/18/smartq-5-mid-scores-itself-ubuntu-a-ridiculously-low-price-tag/		15:08
Stskeeps	132$	15:08
xnt	:)	15:08
* xnt might buy		15:09
Stskeeps	.. yeah, if you can get it in the US	15:09
Stskeeps	i got mine donated by the company	15:09
xnt	how big is it?	15:09
Stskeeps	tinier and lighter than a n800	15:09
xnt	import?	15:09
Stskeeps	but same screen size	15:09
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Stskeeps	yeah, so much import that i had to make a makeshift power plug convertor :P	15:09
* xnt might use this as a remote for his future lmce system		15:10
xnt	:P	15:10
* xnt searches ebay		15:10
xnt	http://cgi.ebay.com/SmartQ-5-MID-8GB-touchscreen-PMP-WiFi-Bluetooth_W0QQitemZ360151247991QQcmdZViewItemQQptZOther_MP3_Player_Accessories?hash=item53daafec77&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234\|66%3A2\|65%3A12\|39%3A1\|240%3A1318\|301%3A1\|293%3A1\|294%3A50 ???	15:11
xnt	Wait its chinese only?	15:11
Stskeeps	with Mer? no	15:12
Stskeeps	also, you can always open a terminal and edit the locale	15:12
xnt	oh so default os = chinese	15:12
xnt	keyboard?	15:12
Stskeeps	no keyboard	15:12
woglinde	wtf	15:12
woglinde	sdk has no findutils	15:12
xnt	:( / :)	15:12
xnt	what mlocate?	15:13
xnt	or find?	15:13
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* xnt <3 mlocate :P		15:13
woglinde	mlocate wont work inside sdk	15:13
xnt	very fast	15:13
xnt	:(	15:13
xnt	maemo 5 or 4?	15:14
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woglinde	hms	15:14
woglinde	sdk+	15:14
woglinde	okay	15:14
xnt	?	15:15
woglinde	now it works	15:15
xnt	http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/install.html this?	15:15
xnt	ok :)	15:16
woglinde	seems I was to fast	15:16
* xnt needs to go through maemo garage again, I haven't gone there in like a month		15:16
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lcuk	woglinde, in computing theres not such thing as too fast :P	15:17
xnt	:P	15:17
lcuk	you simply had lag	15:18
woglinde	nono	15:18
woglinde	ist okay	15:18
woglinde	now	15:18
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andrewfblack	Hello	15:41
brankinhu	World!	15:41
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andre__	eheh. got a first request to clone a bug report from internal to external instead of the other way round. nokia can be funny	15:45
Stskeeps	hehe	15:45
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X-Fade	andre__: Can you try to make a case of moving all hildon and modest bugs to the public bugzilla?	15:46
X-Fade	andre__: As they are public projects now :)	15:46
Stskeeps	i concur	15:46
Stskeeps	:P	15:46
andre__	while i whole-heartly agree that that would be awesome, it's not that easy :-/	15:46
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X-Fade	andre__: No, I guess that will be hard. Although moving some parts to the public one should be doable.	15:47
X-Fade	andre__: A rule like: public bugzilla by default, unless it contains sensitive info..	15:47
andre__	e.g. it would require all involved people to also have accounts in bmo, and there will be comments added (e.g. from testing) that are not meant for public because they sometimes reveal infrastructure and/or hardware information :-/	15:48
X-Fade	andre__: Things like, save button is insensitive when in this and this dialog... Should just be in the public one?	15:48
andre__	of course, the issue itself is totally fine for public bugzilla	15:48
andre__	but correctly dealing with the report will require huge changes in nokia's internal workflow	15:49
andre__	but it might be a good time to start another push into that direction, yeah	15:49
X-Fade	andre__: Well yeah, but they started to move on the path when they decided to open the code.	15:49
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X-Fade	andre__: You are open, or you aren't..	15:49
andre__	it's not that black and white :)	15:50
andre__	i totally agree with the aim	15:50
andre__	but it's way more complicated :-/	15:50
andre__	but yeah. time to push it again and get some people into thinking about this again.	15:51
X-Fade	andre__: It would mean that device testing and things like that should be done somewhere else.	15:51
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andre__	...which is currently well integrated in the internal bugtracker	15:51
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X-Fade	Yeah, well there needs to be a change anyway ;)	15:52
andre__	+1	15:52
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andre__	definitely something for me to think about tonight again while having a beer. but you can imagine, every company has some people that are pushing to get more open, and some people that want to avoid any changes in their workflow ("it has always worked fine for us like this").	15:53
lcuk	X-Fade, glad i caught you (but i might have to vanish) is it possible to get clean simple exports of certain kinds of data from the m.o (such as user avatars with actual userjpg style filenames instead of UID keys	15:53
andre__	so sometimes argumentation must be well-prepared and show the advantages (the latter is very important)	15:54
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X-Fade	andre__: Well with starting to moving things in the open, higher management has already decided that things change. Hard to argue with that ;)	15:54
andre__	well. i don't tell you anything new here. so conclusion: oh yeah, let me try to move it into the open. somehow. :)	15:54
X-Fade	lcuk: For avatars it is hard as I don't think we have the originals.	15:55
andre__	higher management accepted it because some developers pushed this, that's my impression	15:55
X-Fade	andre__: Well in any case, it happened.	15:55
andre__	yupp, and that's a good first step	15:55
X-Fade	andre__: So now things need to be adjusted to make sense :)	15:55
lcuk	X-Fade, but in the user list you already do a lookup to get username, and then show his image - if there were a couple of out of the way places to get this raw information, tell you what it will be easier to show you in the next few days	15:56
lcuk	ive got a minimal version already, but its crabby and only shows a glimpse of what im aiming for :)	15:56
X-Fade	lcuk: You would have to explain your use-case better...	15:56
lcuk	ill show it you, picture worth a 1000 words and all that	15:57
lcuk	not now tho lol	15:57
lcuk	you will have to wait :P	15:57
X-Fade	lcuk: story of my life ;)	15:58
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lcuk	ive apparantly lost the ability to take screenshots from within liqbase (code bug deep in the event handler goosed up) so i cant just run and show u	15:59
RST38h	moo lcuk	15:59
RST38h	Are you now retargeting liqbase as a custom interface to maemo.org? =)	16:00
lcuk	now, was just wanting to get some images that meant something to us all :)	16:01
lcuk	theres a few other exports as well i might want, but i might be able to do without exports	16:01
RST38h	Ah	16:01
lcuk	no ^	16:01
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lcuk	anyway, back to stuffs	16:02
lcuk	\o	16:02
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GAN800	Yeesh, I can't believe what I'm seeing re non-free stuff on the lists. . . .	16:18
GAN800	andre__, is that a new @nokia.com @maemo.org address. . . .	16:19
andre__	GAN800, hmm? what do you refer to?	16:20
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GAN800	1805	16:21
andre__	nope. i just set the missing qa defaults for three bugs	16:21
andre__	that address existed before already	16:21
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GAN800	ah, ok	16:22
andre__	nothing worse than before ;-))	16:23
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RST38h	Whoever wants talk.maemo.org and/or maemo.org in a "dark" color scheme, vote here: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4467	16:39
RST38h	And leave comments	16:39
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GAN800	X-Fade, just so you know, your reply to 4417 was, apparently, 'hostile'.	16:53
X-Fade	GAN800: Huh?	16:54
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X-Fade	GAN800: I just asked if they could test something? Didn't close it with WORKSFORME or anything like that?	16:55
GAN800	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?=284792&postcount=32	16:56
X-Fade	GAN800: Doesn't work?	16:56
GAN800	oops http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=284792&postcount=32	16:57
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X-Fade	GAN800: Sigh..	17:00
RST38h	X-Fade: Well, to be frank, the login system is somehow screwed up even withough web cache	17:01
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X-Fade	RST38h: Whatever device I use, PCs, other connections, friends and family. It always works for me.	17:02
RST38h	X-Fade: Can't explain the exact behaviour at the moment, but it takes usually takes me several attempts to login from home (no cache)	17:02
RST38h	X-Fade: Maybe I am doing something wrong?	17:02
X-Fade	My guess is that the server doesn't send cache-invalidate headers./	17:03
RST38h	X-Fade: Sometimes I have to manually add "s" to "http" for it to register my login	17:03
X-Fade	RST38h: You should never have to do that.	17:03
RST38h	X-Fade: You mean, the page gets stuck in the local FF cache?	17:03
X-Fade	It probably means that you got a server side or client side cached page.	17:03
RST38h	X-Fade: Well, then something is wrong on the server side	17:04
X-Fade	And clicking through to some pages where you haven't been before would probably show that you in fact are logged in.	17:04
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RST38h	X-Fade: Yes, sometimes	17:04
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RST38h	But something is definitely wrong with logins	17:04
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X-Fade	Funny thing is, I really can't reproduce it at all.	17:05
X-Fade	And believe me, I tried.	17:05
X-Fade	I have multiple accounts, new, admin. Everything just works fine for me.	17:06
RST38h	Maybe when it sees you it always logs you in by default? :)	17:06
RST38h	BTW, this crap occurred to me with the "old" maemo.org design but then it went away after you fixed something	17:07
X-Fade	No, I have lots of browsers installed and flushed caches. It always takes only one attempt and the page that comes up after login shows my name.	17:07
RST38h	It resurfaced with the new design, although not sure if it has got the same cause	17:07
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GAN800	Ah, Texrat is in in it now.	17:08
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* GAN800 tries not to shoot barbs in his direction.		17:08
X-Fade	GAN800: But anyway, I've read the bug comment again. And I can't find anything hostile in there.	17:08
GAN800	X-Fade, because there's not.	17:08
RST38h	X-Fade: "WORKSFORME" keyword sounds hostile	17:08
* RST38h ducks		17:09
X-Fade	RST38h: It is not in there?	17:09
X-Fade	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4417#c1	17:09
GAN800	qole took the poster's claim of 'smoking something' at face value.	17:09
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RST38h	now, that's childish	17:10
X-Fade	Sad..	17:11
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X-Fade	And even worse for a council member.	17:11
GAN800	itT is a mess these days	17:11
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GAN800	and Quim was proposing closing -community in favor of it. . . .	17:12
RST38h	GAN: That will make one mess from two, good idea IMHO :)	17:13
GAN800	You're losing an awful lot of good contributors moving it to itT	17:14
X-Fade	I think we just need to add a 10 second counter after each post.	17:14
GAN800	Whatever your personal bias is.	17:14
X-Fade	And then ask if the person still wants to post the comment ;)	17:14
RST38h	Possibly, yes...	17:14
RST38h	Maybe creating some limited kind of a gateway would work	17:15
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lardman	hey	17:15
RST38h	Maybe gate -community postings into ITT but not the vice versa?	17:15
RST38h	yo lardman	17:15
lardman	hi RST38h	17:15
GAN800	I want to see the vBulletin mailing list integration.	17:16
X-Fade	I just think it is sad that people always have to add emotions into simple technical discussions.	17:16
RST38h	X-Fade: People have agendas	17:16
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RST38h	X-Fade: And, when it comes to look-and-feel, things become highly subjective	17:16
X-Fade	RST38h: "Can you test this" is not really something to get emotional about? :)	17:17
RST38h	Now, what I do not understand, is why the website/forum guys do not just implement what forum members are asking them, at least in some limited form	17:17
RST38h	X-Fade: I am afraid the login thing is so overheated because of the overall feeling about the website	17:18
RST38h	X-Fade: it is interpreted as "bad layout, weird colors, all familiar pages lost, and I can't even login" or something like that	17:18
X-Fade	RST38h: Waste of energy, really.	17:19
* RST38h vividly remembers some guy in Logan attacking an airline representative		17:19
RST38h	After the airline lost his luggage and kept him in the terminal for two days. Approximately the same shit happsn on itt	17:20
woglinde	rst was he shoot down?	17:21
woglinde	args maemo python has not xml.minidom	17:22
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RST38h	woglinde: naaah, it was before 9/11	17:23
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digidietze	Does anybody know how I can reach a webmaster of maemo.org?	17:34
X-Fade	digidietze: I have an idea, yes ;)	17:34
digidietze	I left a post on the Developer forum about pic uploading two days ago	17:35
digidietze	but have got no hint or help yet	17:35
X-Fade	digidietze: Let me look it up.	17:36
digidietze	Great, thanks!	17:36
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lardman	digidietze: webmaster@ ...?	17:36
X-Fade	digidietze: Tip: always just state your problem in your mail.	17:37
lardman	worked for me anyway a few times	17:37
X-Fade	Not "where can I find the webmaster" :)	17:37
X-Fade	*in your subject.	17:37
digidietze	OK. Got it.	17:37
X-Fade	digidietze: But it is a known problem and I have asked bergie to look at it.	17:37
lardman	anyone seen an RDS manipulation lib in the new beta release?	17:38
digidietze	That's news. I thought there were only two	17:38
lardman	s/beta/SDK beta	17:38
X-Fade	digidietze: I think the index field which contains the screenshot names for those applications is corrupted, but we have to find out what it is exactly.	17:39
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digidietze	It might have helped if there had been a confirmation about the problem on bugs.maemo.org; I would not have inquired further	17:41
X-Fade	digidietze: Well, one tip there too. Please add only one problem per bug.	17:42
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X-Fade	digidietze: User Login Quirks (and Upload Broken) is not a good way to describe the problem.	17:43
X-Fade	As those can easily be problems that need to be handled by different people.	17:44
X-Fade	But anyway, the login problem is another bug already and is being worked on.	17:44
X-Fade	The upload problem is something that still needs to be looked at.	17:44
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RST38h	android powered netbooks. mghm	17:46
woglinde	rst yes	17:46
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, are you abusing volunteers again? ;)	17:46
woglinde	rumors since some time	17:46
GeneralAntilles	Who the hell would want to use Android in that formfactor.	17:46
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Huh?	17:47
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* RST38h has no idea either. It sounds strange		17:47
GeneralAntilles	Setting aside the question of "Who the hell would want to use Android?" of course.	17:47
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, exactly. :P	17:47
RST38h	At the very least, this thing would have to have SOME office apps	17:47
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Hey, that was my line. Don't steal that ;)	17:47
woglinde	http://www.betavine.net/bvportal/web/guest/mobile_linux/blog	17:48
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Mikho	would someone know a solution for this? I'm trying to compile third party code, but the make process requires a stubs-32.h -file in /usr/include/gnu folder. The file is included in the libc6-dev package, but only in i386 version. The armel package doesn't have it. What can I do?	17:48
RST38h	See what version of libc and gcc your armel sdk has?	17:49
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* RST38h checks what this file is about		17:50
RST38h	Mikho: Ok, your code has got -m32 or some other ia32 specific option in its makefiles	17:52
RST38h	Mikho: You have to remove it, possibly by explicitely telling make what architecture you are compiling it for	17:52
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digidietze	The bug no. #4383 mentioned in the forum post was actually reported by someone else. I just added a comment to confirm it	17:52
GAN800	digidietze, be sure to add a vote to bugs you want to confirm.	17:53
X-Fade	digidietze: Hmm yeah, your bug is duplicate to #4383.	17:54
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X-Fade	digidietze: And the other part is duplicate to: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4417 probably ;)	17:55
Mikho	hmm	17:56
lopz	hi	17:56
Mikho	the problem is just it's not my code	17:56
Mikho	but I'll try to search for the -m32	17:56
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digidietze	I did vote for the bug 4383 as soon as I saw it. And yes, you are right about multiple bug reporting.	17:57
X-Fade	digidietze: Do you mind if I close your bug as duplicate and follow up on the others?	17:58
X-Fade	That way we have 2 separate bugs tracking these issues.	17:58
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digidietze	I thought I was first ... and there might be some information in the posts of this bug (4386)	18:00
X-Fade	Yeah, but it is also a mess talking about all kinds of things ;)	18:01
X-Fade	And if you experience the problem with logging in to bugzilla too, then I'm certain that the problem is at you end.	18:02
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X-Fade	Because that is a completely difference service, running on a different server.	18:02
digidietze	OK, maybe I connected dots that are unrelated	18:03
* GeneralAntilles doesn't feel like setting up a computer to work on the Bugzilla templates.		18:03
digidietze	Feel free to close the bug. I'm comfortable with knowing that help is on the way :)	18:05
X-Fade	digidietze: You should receive a bunch of bugzilla mails ;)	18:05
GeneralAntilles	I was watching some poor lady tote around a Kindle yesterday at the Apple store	18:06
GeneralAntilles	Seems like an awful lot of effort to carry an ebook reader.	18:06
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X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Wait until you go on holiday and need to take about 3kg books with you like I do.	18:07
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	18:07
lardman	X-Fade: +1 to that	18:07
GeneralAntilles	Hooray, tablet.	18:07
* RST38h uses a cell phone for that		18:07
lardman	X-Fade: I'd be a bit worried about someone borrowing it if I leave it on the beach though	18:08
GeneralAntilles	I've managed to get digital copies of most of my textbooks for the past 3 years.	18:08
* RST38h uses damn cell phone for pretty much everything nowadays, the thing even got chew marks on it		18:08
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GeneralAntilles	lol, and the Kindle just got bigger.	18:09
GeneralAntilles	lcuk, chew your nails much? :P	18:13
digidietze	My bugzilla problem is probably browser-related. Firefox worked fine. It smells like a cache problem of Opera.	18:14
X-Fade	digidietze: Well, it can be that we don't send the correct cache invalidation headers.	18:15
X-Fade	digidietze: But both FF and IE have no problems for me.	18:15
X-Fade	digidietze: And my tablet works fine too.	18:15
GeneralAntilles	Is there any way we could make maemo.org logins somewhat persistent?	18:16
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: They are?	18:16
GeneralAntilles	I'm tired of having to login every time I want to heart/thumb something	18:16
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: I never have to?	18:17
Stskeeps	my impression is that they aren't either, not sure why	18:17
GeneralAntilles	I'd love to be able to stay logged in for an appreciable amount of time.	18:17
mikkov_	my login is very persistent	18:17
GeneralAntilles	Moving between 3 machines regularly maybe doesn't help?	18:17
X-Fade	Do you clear cache close?	18:17
RST38h	X-Fade: I also have to relogin at random seemingly	18:17
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X-Fade	There is a timout of a few days.	18:17
X-Fade	Or when your ip changes, I guess.	18:17
X-Fade	Which mine never does.	18:17
RST38h	X-Fade: I do access the site from multiple IPs (work, home, mobile, etc)	18:18
GeneralAntilles	IP hasn't been changing, and it's definitely more often than once a day most of the time.	18:18
RST38h	X-Fade: Can you just store a cookie at each client and use that?	18:18
RST38h	ITT seems to do that pretty well, too	18:18
GeneralAntilles	I don't really have any troubles on Bugzilla either.	18:18
X-Fade	Bugzilla cookie expires in 2038 ;)	18:19
* RST38h wonders if NITs will still be around		18:19
mikkov_	my bugzilla login times out in couple of hours	18:19
GeneralAntilles	Oops, Reggie used "TALK"	18:20
Stskeeps	uh	18:21
X-Fade	the TALK even ;)	18:21
* GeneralAntilles files a few bugs.		18:21
Stskeeps	.seen qwerty12	18:21
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RST38h	BTW another weird feature about logins:	18:22
RST38h	talk.maemo.org and maemo.org seem to have different records of me	18:22
X-Fade	Sure.	18:22
X-Fade	Different host	18:22
RST38h	talk. reports me as "fms", maemo.org shows my full name	18:22
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GeneralAntilles	RST38h, vBulletin doesn't have you fullname in its account info	18:23
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GeneralAntilles	The accounts are separate from maemo.org's	18:23
RST38h	ok, so it is a different database of users?	18:23
RST38h	I see	18:23
GeneralAntilles	Same as the itT database.	18:23
GeneralAntilles	X-Fade, header TALK link can change.	18:23
X-Fade	Just a different skin on top of itt.	18:23
X-Fade	GeneralAntilles: Let's wait a day so every dns has been updated.	18:24
GeneralAntilles	OK	18:24
X-Fade	Don't want more angry people ;)	18:24
RST38h	"Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete." <-- from itt	18:24
mikkov_	^	18:25
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X-Fade	Reggie is just switching over, give him a few minutes ;)	18:25
RST38h	ah	18:26
GeneralAntilles	But we want it now! ;)	18:26
mikkov_	yeah, now it's completely borked :)	18:26
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RST38h	General: To complain about how it did not work 30 seconds ago? =)	18:27
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RST38h	Hmmm...RTComm and Media are now developed at Bangalore?	18:29
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X-Fade	RST38h: Could be, there are a lot of job offerings there too?	18:31
RST38h	Yep, almost exclusively there at the moment	18:33
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RST38h	There is just one offering for US (Mountain View) which seems to deal with supporting exteranl parties (Adobe? =))	18:34
GeneralAntilles	Reggie really does kick ass at Bugzilla	18:34
GeneralAntilles	Whenever we put together those Bugzilla report cards I'm giving him an "A+++++ would buy from again"	18:35
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RST38h	cannot convert parameter 1 from 'int' to 'U32'	18:38
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RST38h	cannot convert parameter 2 from 'U16' to 'U32' <--- gcc went into bullshitting mode	18:38
sjgadsby	Grr. This computer is too slow.	18:40
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GeneralAntilles	sjgadsby, story of my life lately.	18:43
sjgadsby	That reminds me, how is your leaky Mac repair/replacement going?	18:43
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GeneralAntilles	sjgadsby, dropped it off at the Apple store yesterday	18:45
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GeneralAntilles	They gave me a parts list that totals out over $3000, so I called the customer relations guy yesterday to ask about a replacement again.	18:46
GeneralAntilles	Hopefully he'll call me back at some point today.	18:46
sjgadsby	Sheesh.	18:46
sjgadsby	Here's hoping you just get a new machine.	18:47
GeneralAntilles	I apparently copied down his extension incorrectly, and there are three people by that name at Apple.	18:47
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, here's hoping	18:47
GeneralAntilles	I can't imagine they'd really prefer replacing the CPU assembly, motherboard, power supply, and case over just giving me a new machine.	18:47
sjgadsby	Agreed. The repair doesn't sound to be worth their time or money.	18:48
ShadowJK	GeneralAntilles, what would they not replace?	18:48
RST38h	Get a Gateway!	18:48
* RST38h ducks, then hides quickly		18:48
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, unfortunately the people in the store aren't enabled to do shit, apparently.	18:48
GeneralAntilles	ShadowJK, because the CSR guy didn't authorize a replacement, he authorized a repair.	18:49
ShadowJK	No I mean, what's left to replace after all that... harddrive and ram?	18:49
GeneralAntilles	Graphics cards, and a lot of little internal bits and pieces (fans, etc.) but, yeah, not much.	18:50
GeneralAntilles	s/cards/card/	18:50
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: Graphics card, and a lot of little internal bits and pieces (fans, etc.) but, yeah, not much.	18:50
ShadowJK	Oh I thought the fans would count as part of case :-)	18:51
GeneralAntilles	Nah, most of them are modular.	18:51
GeneralAntilles	I will be so fucking happy if I can get a Mac Pro out of this, though. . . .	18:51
ShadowJK	Funny that if you buy a low-end brandname case you usually get a PSU too, preinstalled, but if you buy a high-end brandname case you usually get fans preinstalled and no psu :-)	18:54
GeneralAntilles	Lot of people there yesterday with 1st gen iPhone with lines on the screen and no recourse but a $200 repair.	18:54
ShadowJK	what, warranty over already?	18:54
GeneralAntilles	ShadowJK, yeah, but the PSU you get bundled with that case is rather likely to explode on you. ;)	18:54
GeneralAntilles	1-year warranty	18:55
GeneralAntilles	In the ~1.5 years old range	18:55
ShadowJK	mine didn't explode, but it did see fit to auto-overclock my board by sending 6V down 3.3V line	18:55
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GeneralAntilles	lol	18:55
GeneralAntilles	It's a 600watt PSU in my G5	18:55
ShadowJK	But the contract is longer than 1 year.. what are people, stupid?	18:56
GeneralAntilles	Well, they did buy iPhones. ;)	18:56
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lardman	Talking about contracts, I had a chap on the phone today from TalkTalk asking me my name, address, dob, etc	18:58
lardman	I told him no and he became quite upset	18:59
ShadowJK	lol	18:59
ShadowJK	What did he say?	18:59
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lardman	and it turns out they wanted to offer me something like £15 for signing up for another 18months, as opposed to my keeping my existing rolling contract, hmm I wonder if I should take it.....? ;)	18:59
lardman	not exactly enough to make me sign my life away for the next year and a half	19:00
GeneralAntilles	lol	19:01
GeneralAntilles	See if you can talk him into giving you an RX-51. ;)	19:01
lardman	lol, the funniest thing was that I offered to give my dob if he would tell me my account number, and he said he couldn't as with that information I could impersonate myself :D	19:01
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lardman	GeneralAntilles: !	19:01
ShadowJK	hm :)	19:01
ShadowJK	two way challenge-response authentication :)	19:02
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ShadowJK	lardman, next time, offer him to sum up the numbers in your account number and DOB, and that if he gets it right you'll tell him your full DOB	19:02
lardman	hmm, I'm not sure he'd have been able to manage that one	19:03
lardman	GeneralAntilles: come on then, where are these new devices?	19:03
lardman	:)	19:03
lardman	I was thinking of getting one of those usb2vga adaptors for a minute there (for £30), but after some serious digging it looks like that chipset isn't supported	19:04
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lardman	and the supported ones are ~£50 :(	19:04
GeneralAntilles	lardman, dunno, you tell me. :P	19:05
lardman	oh, I thought that was a subtle hint about a TalkTalk tie in ;)	19:06
lardman	Ah well, fingers crossed for some time in July then	19:06
Mikho	I cannot find the -m32 flag anywhere in the code and nothing mentions stubs-32.h	19:06
Mikho	what kind of things could imply the use of stubs-32.h?	19:07
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lardman	using a 64bit compiler?	19:07
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Mikho	the compiler i'm using is cs2005q3.2-glibc2.5-arm	19:10
lardman	hmm, no idea then	19:12
lardman	sorry	19:12
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Mikho	never mind...	19:14
lardman	./me heads for the cinema, see you guys later/tomorrow	19:15
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Mikho	the problem was called the "always run make clean when you switch targets"	19:15
Mikho	rule	19:15
derf	:)	19:15
Mikho	of course it used the object files I had compiled for i386	19:15
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Mikho	2 hours of work time completely wasted	19:16
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RST38h	Micro Focus is in the process of buying Borland Software for $75 million.	20:41
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* RST38h drops a tear on the white carcass of Borland		20:41
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lcuk	careful RST38h the dna in that tear could bring them back	20:46
RST38h	nothing can bring 'em back	20:48
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lcuk	they say that at the end of every horror movie	20:48
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RST38h	this horror movie ends with a cameo by Microsoft	20:49
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lcuk	lol	20:50
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radic	Is it possible to use 3 akkus together?	21:14
radic	and could they charched by the n800?	21:14
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radic	Stskeeps	21:24
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LiraNuna	does b-man ever hang our here?	21:29
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lcuk	yeah but later	21:33
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Guest3410_089	any idea about''official'' unbuntu mid?	21:52
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* lcuk has happy pills		22:18
lcuk	GeneralAntilles, yes	22:19
lcuk	but about 10% less at the moment	22:19
GAN800	lcuk, context?	22:21
* GAN800 doesn't remember what he asked.		22:21
lcuk	do i chew my nails much	22:21
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GAN800	lol	22:22
GAN800	I can see why nail chewers might like using the stylus. ;)	22:23
lcuk	heh yeah	22:23
lcuk	what else am i gonna do if theres no bacon	22:23
woglinde	bacon	22:23
lcuk	hi woglinde	22:24
lcuk	GAN800, did you see the pic then	22:24
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GAN800	Yeah, looks nice.	22:24
GAN800	I like the bruise moving up the finger.	22:24
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lcuk	yeah - it reallllllly hurt this afternoon, i dropped my pen and instinctively reached out to grab it	22:25
CutMeOwnThroat	and the pen was a laser sword?	22:26
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lcuk	no CutMeOwnThroat - it might not be so ironic if it was	22:26
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* sjgadsby thinks lcuk has taken his quest for a free RX-51 a bit too far.		22:28
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lcuk	shame it got me nowhere lol	22:29
lcuk	talk. is starting to look a little easier on the eyes - improved muchly once the meta data calmed down and titles stopped repeating	22:30
sjgadsby	Eh, file an enhancement request to add "Bled for Nokia" to the karma calculation. At least your position will rise in the developer device program.	22:30
sjgadsby	Yes, now it's just the topics that repeat.	22:31
lcuk	well sjgadsby i said i would give my right hand to be involved :P i really didnt think they would take it literally	22:31
lcuk	bbl anyway its easier to type now, but theres 2 of everything	22:32
sjgadsby	The Finns are a very literal people.	22:32
GeneralAntilles	lol	22:34
GeneralAntilles	I'm just glad we managed to dodge the searching flamewar when overfloat brought that one up.	22:35
GuySoft	oh my.. i just found out someone in the world hates me	22:35
sjgadsby	Only one person, GuySoft? You're not trying hard enough.	22:36
GuySoft	sjgadsby, no its really a strange one - let me tell	22:36
GuySoft	ok.. so i get this strange comment on my latest blog post about the nokia-sugar thing	22:36
GeneralAntilles	Seriously, if you're not getting at least one hate mail a week, you aint doing it right. ;)	22:37
GeneralAntilles	sjgadsby, you managed any bugzilla hatemail yet?	22:37
sjgadsby	No, no hatemail yet.	22:38
GuySoft	that says something like "thank you so much" and points to a really strange URL, its a wordpress blog with a lot of links to software downloads.. while i am not sure if to approve the comment i google the url of the blog: reysoft.wordpress.com .. when i googled it i understand why the guy hates me	22:38
Stskeeps	ah, heh	22:39
GeneralAntilles	sjgadsby, ah, too bad. That freejazz character sent me death threats.	22:39
* sjgadsby is impressed.		22:39
GuySoft	ill try to sum up: when you google this guys blog, you get mine..	22:39
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GuySoft	so he commented on my blog with a link..	22:40
GeneralAntilles	lol	22:40
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GuySoft	i mean, i can imagine how annoying it is to him. supose i google: guysoft.wordpress.com ,. and googles says back: Did you mean: reysoft.wordpress.com Top 2 results shown	22:41
GuySoft	thats what the poor guy gets..	22:41
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derf	GuySoft: I doubt he hates you... he just wants you to post the link so increase his PageRank.	22:43
derf	*to	22:43
GuySoft	derf, but i am against spamdexing.. i preach about it to all the morons that come to me and say they want to advance their website in google	22:44
GuySoft	ah! the irony!	22:44
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CutMeOwnThroat	GuySoft, well, side effect of google ranking # of links over everything else (even spelling)	22:46
CutMeOwnThroat	both :)	22:46
CutMeOwnThroat	anyway, googling urls is kinda stupid :)	22:47
GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, i dono.. i just looked at this blog of his.. it has links to a lot of free software in a commercial website without attribution.. i am against that too..	22:48
CutMeOwnThroat	so whaddaya care	22:48
GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, i tend to do ctrl+k ctrl+v instead of ctrl+l ctrl+v my mistake..	22:49
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GuySoft	by*	22:49
CutMeOwnThroat	?	22:49
tank-man	delete his comment :)	22:50
tank-man	do it!	22:50
GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, well i am just surprised i found out why.. i think ill have to listen to tank-man that goes with my logic	22:51
CutMeOwnThroat	or change it to "my google-fu is weak"	22:51
GuySoft	i mean CutMeOwnThroat just tried to convince me to help a spamdexer that links to software without attribution (and also CutMeOwnThroat proved he is stupid)	22:51
GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, na.. i think the most evil thing i could have done if i wanted to, its just remove the url.. then when he searches his username it would also link to my blog	22:52
CutMeOwnThroat	I tried to convince you of anything?	22:52
CutMeOwnThroat	and yay, I proved that I'm stupid	22:53
CutMeOwnThroat	interesting	22:53
CutMeOwnThroat	wonder how I did it	22:53
GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, i thought you did when you said i shouldn't care. misunderstanding	22:53
CutMeOwnThroat	<GuySoft> oh my.. i just found out someone in the world hates me	22:53
GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, we are all stupid.. look at my reply - i do it too	22:53
CutMeOwnThroat	I shouldn't wonder why you care?	22:53
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GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, ya.. i guess i did , i am not sure if it passed by now..	22:54
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GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, i think we better drop the subject.. i have to get back to my homework in electromagnetism (bloody dipoles)	22:55
GeneralAntilles	If the h-a-m in the beta matches the internal release, what the HELL has that team been working on in the past year? . . .	22:55
CutMeOwnThroat	oh, didn't know you need blood to get electromagnets to work	22:55
GuySoft	CutMeOwnThroat, you need blood for the multipole derivation.. and a few forbidden items..	22:56
GuySoft	.. and i dont mean Taylor series	22:57
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: Ovi Porn	22:57
CutMeOwnThroat	well, go and sacrifice a goat, then	22:58
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GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, seems like that would require work on h-a-m. . . .	23:03
GeneralAntilles	If they're working on a separate applications I'm going to petition to have them all drawn and quartered	23:04
paul0	hi	23:07
paul0	i've saw a OLSR port to N770	23:07
paul0	it will run on N800 (OS2008)	23:08
paul0	?	23:08
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GeneralAntilles	We didn't even get any UI momentum going while we had the chance. . . .	23:12
* GeneralAntilles sighs		23:12
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GeneralAntilles	We need somebody to mock up some real tabs for Newstyle. http://wiki.maemo.org/Image:Brainstorm_frontpage.png	23:14
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lcuk	GeneralAntilles, wheres the link to these app categories things	23:20
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GeneralAntilles	~categories	23:20
GeneralAntilles	~package-categories	23:21
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GeneralAntilles	http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories	23:21
GeneralAntilles	~categories is http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories	23:21
infobot	okay, GeneralAntilles	23:21
lcuk	thx, are those example apps canon?	23:22
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GeneralAntilles	lcuk, only to an extent	23:25
GeneralAntilles	lcuk, what's the real question?	23:25
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lcuk	nothin lol, you answered it :)	23:25
lcuk	did you solicit translations for "Other"?	23:26
GeneralAntilles	Yes, but Other isn't a valid category.	23:26
GeneralAntilles	That's for packages with invalid categories ONLY.	23:26
lcuk	i know other isnt a valid category, but it would need a translated tag	23:27
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lcuk	mmm did you know "boston dynamics" lab used an n810 to control the Big Dog robot (the one that walked over anything and could be kicked and stuff) - at least they show one in the advert	23:56
lcuk	http://www.bostondynamics.com/robot_bigdog.html	23:56
lcuk	http://www.bostondynamics.com/img/BigDog_OCU.png	23:57
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Proteous	that's cool	23:58
GeneralAntilles	Veeery interesting	23:58
GeneralAntilles	That thing is loud as all get out, though.	23:58
lcuk	yeah thats the genny	23:59
lcuk	they should replace it with an rtg	23:59

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