IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-03-06

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luke-jrsomeone suggested a $15 shipped BT headset earlier-- something special that makes it better than the $10 shipped WEP200? O.o00:15
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jaem_N810good morning00:16
b-manhello :)00:17
jaem_N810how's the installer coming, b-man?00:17
jaem_N810the Ubuntu one, that is00:17
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b-manI'm finishing up with sys-env-base and sys-env-x so i can actually start - i've been busy completing the repo00:21
RST38hTI83+ works!00:21
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jaem_N810RST38h: %11111000 !00:24
b-manhehe00:24
jaem_N810oh, and by the way, I've been getting rendering glitches on the 3x5 font on the 8300:24
RST38hjaem: that is RST30h00:24
RST38hjaem: fixed those glitches ~40 minutes ago00:25
jaem_N810thanks00:25
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Macerwtf... like.. this networking doesn't seem to be working too well00:37
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Macerwtf00:39
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FireFox16Macer: crummy upload/download speed?00:41
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FireFox16hello, neatojones :)00:43
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L0cutuse00:48
b-man00:48
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vasily_pupkinHm.. Anybody use GPE calendar?01:06
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luke-jrany way to get WiFi PSM to turn off when there's a call?01:12
luke-jrit adds 300-1000ms latency when it's on :/01:12
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lardmanevening all01:15
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* Myrtti frustrates01:17
lardmanfrustrates who?01:17
Myrttimyself, badly01:17
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lardman:)01:17
MyrttiI'm running out of colloquial familyfriendly ways to curse01:18
Myrttiso far the Finnish vocabulary has been enough, but I might have to move over to English soon01:18
lardmanlol, no need for the familyfriends thing, we can take it01:18
qwerty12_N800Come to the dark side! our words sound better01:19
lardmanshame about some of our songs hey qwerty12_N800?! ;)01:19
Myrttiqwerty12_N800: there's no better word for cursing than perkele01:19
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Myrttiit's the RRRRR01:20
* lardman curses n800 for very poor battery life these days01:20
GeneralAntillesAh, another Mark Haury® flamewar on -users.01:20
HirvinenI also like kurwa.01:20
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timelessi wonder why i'm not on -users :)01:20
GeneralAntillesEverything he touches is guaranteed to descend into idiocy.01:20
* lardman is happy -users only comes as a digest these days :)01:20
GeneralAntillestimeless, you can't even handle -community. :P01:20
HirvinenCan be combined nicely for kurwa perkele.01:21
qwerty12_N800lardman: yeah, what is this hard candy shit :p01:21
timelesshey, i haven't unsubscribed yet! (unlike -devel)01:21
GeneralAntilleslardman, I'd likely blame the age of the battery.01:21
lardmanqwerty12_N800: lol01:21
Hirvinen(Sometimes prepended with some Midgard component ;)01:21
ds3lardman: what battery life are you seeing??01:21
lardmanGeneralAntilles: yeah probably01:21
fireunbatteries are hot air01:21
Myrttify.sh: line 191: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `}' <-- ARGH01:22
GeneralAntilleslardman, my N800's life is starting to go down the tubes, too.01:22
lardmands3: not sure exactly as it's usually plugged in, but not great01:22
lcukok, who told tracy about drive cloning01:22
ds3lardman: can you still do a full day away from the charger?01:22
lardmanno -users digest yet, something to look forward to for tomorrow ;)01:23
GeneralAntillesI'm also amazed at what itT is able to come up with when there's limited information to go on.01:23
woglindegood nite01:23
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lardmands3: no idea, it's always sat on my desk for dev work, sorry01:23
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lardmanGeneralAntilles: so you've got a dell?01:24
lardmanor at least are waiting for one?01:24
GeneralAntillesWaiting for one.01:24
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lardmanis that the funny side screen thing, or a flash-drive laptop-style thing?01:25
GeneralAntillesBut I may never get it since UPS arbitrarily likes to deliver things to the front office at 4:50PM.01:25
lardmans/side/wide01:25
GeneralAntilles"I don't feel like actually trying to deliver this package."01:25
GeneralAntilleslardman, it's a 9" netbook.01:25
GeneralAntillesand, of course, the web status doesn't change until after 5PM01:26
lardmanI'm always impressed with the balls of some of the delivery drivers, no note, I was at home all day, yet you get a message saying a delivery was "attempted". hmm....01:26
GeneralAntillesSo I can't hit the road early tomorrow. Instead I have to wait around until the office opens at 10AM to leave.01:26
lardmanyeah, the wonders of the online tracking which is updated once per day!01:26
GeneralAntillesI watched the UPS driver stop, wait, then drive away with my G5 at 7PM after I had taken the day off to wait for it.01:27
lardmanouch01:27
GeneralAntilles"Delivery attempted, recipient not at home."01:27
lardmanI waited in a whole day a few years back for a new PC system, only to find they had dropped with with a neighbour at 9am and not left a note01:27
GeneralAntillesI guess you get what you pay for, though.01:28
lcuklardman, i forgot to say thanks for the free pc01:28
lardmanyeah $25 delivery hey?01:28
GeneralAntillesIt'd all be a whole lot more reliable if we were paying 2x as much for shipping.01:28
johnxO_o;01:28
johnxor it would be reliable if people actually stopped using incompetent shipping companies01:28
lardmanlcuk: is this the real deal or Mrs.-whywontmrlcukfioxmypcillkillhimsoon?01:28
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derfOnce I was checking the status, and saw it had _just_ updated to "DELIVERED", and I'm like, I'm sitting right next to the door. Nobody delivered anything.01:28
lcuklol the real deal, she has had me trying to get this fuffing thing working since we got back from school01:29
lardmanderf: then you check the meter box01:29
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, that's all of them.01:29
derflardman: I checked outside, no package, no nothing...01:29
derfI'm about to call someone all pissed off, when a truck finally pulls up.01:29
johnxmaybe it's time for me to talk to one of the places here about starting to offer service in the US...01:30
derfAnd the driver gets out with my package, "Yeah, I was just around the corner scanning packages."01:30
lardmanderf: truck must have been moving very fast to affect the space-time continuum ;)01:30
lardmanah, I see :)01:30
lcukbut changing it to delivered before you accept the package is bad - you shouldv declined it no matter how much you wanted it01:31
GeneralAntillesIn the US, you have a choice between FedEx, UPS, DHL, or USPS01:31
GeneralAntillesThey all suck.01:31
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lardmanGeneralAntilles: you get a choice over there! The free world!01:31
johnxhere you have I think around 3 choices and they seem to all rock01:31
lcukisnt it down to pride in your job01:31
qwerty12_N800lardman: ey ey, we at least have more than one parcel delivery company here (surprise!) :p01:32
johnxit's down to high customer expectations, and losing business if they aren't met01:32
GeneralAntillesjohnx, arguably, I could find plenty of people in the states who love one of move of those carriers and wouldn't have a single bad thing to say about them.01:32
johnxalso: less land mass to cover ;)01:32
johnxGeneralAntilles, yeah, but you'd have to be selective01:32
lardmanqwerty12_N800: yeah well you live in London, the centre of the known universe (for stock brokers looking for work), I live in the West Country01:32
lcukjohnx, thats right about the expectations, the landmass isnt important, you jsut have less drivers01:32
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derfjohnx: You live in Japan, service capital of the world.01:33
qwerty12_N800Poor lardman.01:33
* lcuk lives in the north. the driver from posting office brings round his cart once a week if we are lucky01:33
lardmanit's a hard life having to milk my own cows in the morning01:33
lardmanlol01:33
lardmanwith the coal is that?01:33
johnxderf, yeah. it'd just be nice for one of the delivery places here to start up business in the US and give UPS/FedEx a real reason to shape up...01:33
lcuknoooooo coal is delivered on a wednesday by a nice chap with a limp and a gammy eye01:34
derfNah, they'd never be able to compete on price that way and so no one would use them until they got sloppy and lazy, too.01:34
vasily_pupkinargh. GPE Cal white background annoying01:34
lardmanlcuk: and on Thurs they take the dead..... :D01:34
derfI mean, unless they were staffed entirely with Japanese immigrants.01:34
lcuklol cart sharing01:34
derfWho hadn't already been corrupted by the US.01:35
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* lardman thinks of Monty Python, I think01:35
lcukheh yeah01:35
lcukbart pe01:35
johnxderf, eh, they'd just tell people here that they had to move to the US to keep their jobs and if they did real good they'd get to move back in 1-2 years. That's the way most companies here seem to work01:36
johnxthey'd probably have to take a loss at first until they built up a solid reputation01:36
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lardmannight all01:46
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Myrttiper-ke-le02:11
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* Myrtti facepalms02:41
lcukthat could leave a mark02:41
lcukMyrtti, what did you break02:42
MyrttiI've done this so many times I know how to do it without leaving marks02:42
Myrttilcuk: I just learned to use basename...02:42
MyrttiAI EES EN EEDJOT02:42
johnxlet me guess: You wish you learned it a lot earlier?02:42
lcukthankfully i dont know what basename is - tho ive prolly wrote the function myself :D02:42
MyrttiFOR FUCKS SAKEEEEEE02:43
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Myrttiaarrghghg02:43
johnxlcuk, if you run: basename /bin/echo it returns echo02:43
lcukheh, yeah, ive wrote a function to do that02:44
MyrttiI had two lines of sed to do what baseline pwd can do02:44
MyrttiARRGHGAHSFDGLKHAFGb nfA02:44
* lcuk was using pure c tho02:44
johnxshould use cut for that anyways :)02:44
Myrtti*HUAH*02:44
* Myrtti rolls02:44
lcukchar *liqapp_filename_walkoverpath(char *filename);02:45
johnxhuh...actually, you're write, it's non-trivial to pick out the *last* element02:45
johnxs/write/right/02:45
infobotjohnx meant: huh...actually, you're right, it's non-trivial to pick out the *last* element02:45
lcukits trivial but you have to walk the entire string to find it02:46
Myrttilcuk: you're talking to a person who knows about *real* programming about as much as a pig knows about French renaissance novelwrights02:46
Myrttiso excuse me while I'm an idiot :-D02:47
lcukMyrtti, i write visual basic in the day time.02:47
Myrttilcuk: I write bash, sed and awk.02:47
johnxlcuk, I mean with cut and/or sed02:47
Myrttithose are my tools. I'm useless with everything else.02:47
lcukyou know more languages than me02:47
* lcuk is useless in linux02:48
Myrttibash is nice. it allows arrays.02:48
lcuknow you are the second person ive seen saying that02:48
lcukisnt bash like cmd.exe02:48
lcukon steroids02:48
johnxit allows arrays, but it takes some of your soul in return...02:48
lcukarrays of what though02:48
lcuklemon slices are delicious02:49
lcukand middle bacon is horrible02:49
fireunbash is nice, fish is better02:49
fireuncmd.exe is a joke02:49
Myrttijohnx: I'd do this with zsh if I had the luxury to assume that it's available.02:49
lcukwhat about microsoft gonad?  (or whatever its real name is )02:49
johnxbash is the logical descendant of sh. cmd.exe is kind of a barely related cousin...02:49
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johnxis monad even out yet?02:50
lcukmonad! thats its name02:50
lcukim not sure i just remember reading about it being cmd.exe with .net underneath, sorta like vbscript++02:51
johnxjust repeat this to yourself every time MS adds a feature: "Those who don't learn from Unix are doomed to reimplement it, poorly."02:51
lcukwhats the unix way to make a mobile internet device?02:52
johnxprobably the bugbase :)02:53
johnxindividual tools that do one thing, and do it well, but can be connected with each other02:53
johnxbut I'm not so sure that software engineering principals can be sanely applied to hardware...02:53
lcukbut there is the software to run on the hardware02:54
lcukthe apis arent always in shape in time and compromises are made02:54
johnxUnix is a compromise on Multics :)02:55
johnxthe whole OS is just one big compromise02:55
lcukyeah, you keep everything together with sticking plasters until the original form cannot be seen02:56
lcukoccasionally its good to have a clear out though :)02:56
johnxah, but that's the trick: Instead of making things that need to be plastered together, you make them out of lego bricks in the first place02:56
* lcuk likes lego02:57
lcukthe problem with lego though is that you cannot build more lego with lego02:57
johnxI'm pretty sure you could implement bash in bash...it would just...hurt02:58
johnxa lot02:58
lcuklol02:58
MyrttiOH EM EF GEE02:58
Myrttiit works ;___;02:59
johnxyay!02:59
johnxcongrats02:59
derfbash is Turing complete.02:59
lcukjohn, i started peeking at x11 window stuff and reading around matchbox and other wms and stuff02:59
lcukMyrtti, what are you building02:59
Myrttilcuk: you'll see :-P02:59
johnxand what do you think about the world of X11 window managers? crazy, eh?03:00
lcukwell Myrtti i already know what you are doing (jaiku..) i was just lazy and couldnt remember03:00
lcukwell for now ive done nothing more than a cursory glance03:01
johnxwell, did you see anything interesting?03:02
Myrttilcuk: I'll poke you when you can see what I've been doing03:02
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lcuklol ok03:03
lcukjohnx, i see glimpes03:03
lcukjohnx, i see glimpses03:03
Myrttiright now I can say that this is darn pretty03:03
lcukhttp://liqbase.net/liq.20090303_033416.lib.scr.png03:03
Myrttiand if I'd be selfish, I could build up shitload of karma with this, but :-P03:04
johnxthinking of window layout strategies?03:04
lcukMyrtti, :) go for the glory03:04
lcukwell ive already got a decent window layout strategy03:04
Myrttilcuk: nah03:04
MyrttiI don't really care03:04
johnxsooo, task switching?03:04
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lcuknot even that so far johnx, just playing03:05
lcuktask switching is fine, but that still implies you start and stop applications03:06
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juksuttajahumdidum03:07
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juksuttajaanyone alive here?03:09
johnxjuksuttaja, I'm afraid so03:10
juksuttajaoh..03:10
johnx:)03:10
juksuttajain that case;03:10
juksuttajado you happen to be familiar with maemo x86 sdk?03:10
juksuttaja'emulator'03:10
johnxsomewhat, but there are other people on here who are more familiar03:10
juksuttajaok, my problem is most likely quite easy one;03:11
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juksuttaja1. i install sdk 4.1.2 according to install.txt03:11
juksuttaja2. everything works fine (i suppose)03:11
juksuttaja3. i install xchat03:12
juksuttaja4. --> unable to connect03:12
johnxcan you ping from the shell?03:12
juksuttajawget works fine in scratchbox , but i haven't figured out how to open shell in emulator03:13
johnxif you can install xchat you should be able to install roxterm or similar03:14
johnxI assume you got xchat from extras?03:14
juksuttajayes03:15
juksuttajaso roxterm should be visible in emulator after installation - and it's available from maemo.org repositories?03:15
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johnxyeah, it's available from either extras or extras-devel03:17
juksuttajahmm.. operation not permitted03:25
juksuttajaso no i can't ping03:25
juksuttajaalso 'host www.google.com' returned nameserver not running03:25
juksuttajabut 'wget www.google.com' works03:27
juksuttajaall these from roxterm03:27
johnxwhat does the hosts: line say in /etc/nsswitch.conf03:29
Firebirdhmm, how do I step forward the version of a debian package03:31
juksuttajajohnx, 'files dns'03:31
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johnxFirebird, you're making a package? or you want to apt-get upgrade just one package?03:32
Firebirdmaking one.. like what do I put in the control or changelog files03:32
johnxdch -i03:33
johnxjust type that in the top directory of the package and it will do the rest03:33
johnxif you want to manually specify the version string it's dch -v 0.1-maemo203:33
Firebirdah, cool03:33
jaemhello03:34
jaemI just got my bluetooth-enabled LCD bracelet in the mail today... :D03:35
jaemdoes anyone know if there's a way to open up communications to a HFP BT device from Maemo?  e.g. a serial console, or some such thing?03:35
Firebirdthe LED bracelet from thinkgeek? neat03:37
jaemFirebird: like that, only better - with a 1x12 char LCD - and cheaper03:37
Firebirdah, cool03:37
jaemit's on DX for $40 CAD, with free shipping - yay03:37
jaemI'm just looking into things... bluez seems to have a lack of easily available docs for the user level03:38
jaemI'd like to see if I can get it to display arbitrary strings on the LCD03:38
johnxmight want to look at hciconfig?03:38
jaemjohnx: willdo... I was asking because I didn't really know where to start looking ;)03:38
jaemunfortunately, I think my desktop's BT dongle died recently03:39
jaempiece of junk... >:(03:39
johnxyeah, I don't really know either. I have only limited experience with serial bt devices...03:39
jaemI hope I can figure out something.  It has an LCD, a vibra motor, a button, and BT - there could be some interesting uses03:39
jaemalso, Hackaday issued a Hackit challenge on the device, and I'd like to have 15 minutes of fame03:40
jaem...and an increase in blog traffic couldn't hurt ;)03:40
jaemI had a Skype bot try to pull a 419 scam on me earlier today..03:41
jaemit was actually fairly well done - I was impressed03:41
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jaemit could answer basic questions, and if I hadn't been me, I might have believed it was real03:42
johnxhuh, what did it want?03:42
jaemthe standard advance payment fraud deal03:43
johnxso you would have believed the scam was real or that the bot was really a live scammer?03:43
jaemthe latter03:43
jaemin the conversation I had with it, it was reasonably hard to tell03:44
jaembut it was slightly too canned to be real03:44
jaemI just wanted to see what would happen, so I played along until it gave away the whole thing03:44
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jaemit tried to convince me to add it as a Skype contact before it would tell me the whole story03:45
jaemlol03:45
jaemstupid bot03:45
jaemby the way, is anyone else here using minigpsd, from Extras?03:48
johnxthat's actually kind of awesome03:49
jaemyeah03:50
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johnxthe scammers will bring about the first AI, and its prime directive will be to scam the world03:50
jaemit almost had me going for a bit... that is, until it actually pulled out the scam speech03:50
jaemit's quite possible03:50
b-manWohooo!!! - i've got Avant Window Navigator running on my N800 running ubuntu; http://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/ubuntu-n8x0/screenshots/Screenshot-10.png - who said you can't get awn running on the tablets :D03:50
jaemnot I03:50
jaemnice!03:51
jaemdoesn't that violate Apple's supposed patents ;)03:51
jaemnot that anyone really cares03:51
jaemI still can't believe they were awarded the patent on the dock, after all this time :S03:52
b-manhehe03:53
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jaemb-man: how is performance on Ubuntu for the N8x0?  I was running a minimal install of LXDE, and it just crawled, even with 256MB of swap03:59
b-manhmm03:59
jaemalso, how do you solve the pointer calibration issues?  I copied over what the calibration file in /etc, and it tracked the stylus properly, but it was extremely sensitive, to the point that it wasn't useable04:00
jaemaside from that, though, it looks great :P04:00
b-manyou should not need to copy over that file04:00
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jaemoh?  It was a fair bit off until I did, although not as much as it was for Deblet when I tried it a month or two back04:01
b-manxserver-xorg-input-tslib takes care of that04:01
jaemwell, it didn't appear to work properly for me...04:01
jaemhmm04:01
jaemI don't have it currently installed, unfortunately04:02
neatojonesjaem:  you have to make sure you have the version from Mer repos installed.  It'll try and update to the ubuntu one, which doesn't work04:02
jaemah.. that could be it.  I did follow the install instructions to the letter, however04:02
neatojonesalso, lxde (and every other wm) used to crawl for me.  I found out that gnome-keyring-daemon has issues with nm-applet04:03
jaemokay04:03
jaemI never use gnome-keyring-daemon anyhow04:03
jaemI find it annoying04:03
neatojonesso, you have to kill gnome-keyring-daemon and find an alternative to nm-applet04:03
jaemI didn't have nm-applet running, thoguh04:03
jaemI used wifi-radar04:03
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neatojoneshmm. Not sure if it was the same problem though.  But, I thought it was horribly slow until I realized gnome-keyring-daemon was stalling the system.04:04
b-manjaem: the ubuntu-n8x0 repo is still uncomplete - that's why i'm still using the deblet and mer repos04:05
b-manallong side04:05
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* b-man has full gnome installed and he doesn't have any speed issues, hmm04:07
jaemI'll give it another shot when you finish setting up the repos04:08
jaemand when I have more spare time04:08
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* jaem facepalms04:10
* b-man has a really crummy wierless connection atm XP04:10
jaemdid the Bluetooth SIG *actually* use clipart from MS Office 97?04:11
jaemSERIOUSLY?04:11
jaemin the HFP spec, no less04:11
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jaemthat's just sad...04:11
FireFox16mhm04:12
johnxjaem, looking into those bt watches and such now04:12
johnxlooks quite interesting04:13
jaemyes it does04:13
jaemI'm not sure if they can display arbitrary text04:13
jaemthe spec is not very easy to jump into04:13
jaembut it looks like it may be limited to numbers only04:13
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* jaem pulls out his precision screwdrivers, and prepares to pop the case :D04:14
jaemthe PCB is nice and accessible04:14
jaemthat's always a plus04:14
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johnxI like the idea from the commenter about using a buffer overflow to run arbitrary code. even if it's not true, it's a nice thought...04:15
jaemyeah04:15
jaemmmmm... everybody loves boardshots, right?04:15
* jaem prepares to take some04:15
* FireFox16 's going to fool everyone by installing the mac4lin theme in gnome allong side awn and globalmenu - that is, everyone who has never seen an N800 :D04:15
johnxI'd like to see it04:15
jaemI'll link you when I have them up04:15
jaemhahaha04:15
jaemFF: the sad part is that people would believe you04:16
FireFox16XD04:16
neatojones...pure genious ;)04:16
jaemI was talking to a friend who said he knew people who thought vanilla GNOME /was/ Mac, merely because it had a panel at the top >_<04:16
FireFox16lol04:16
neatojonesthe ugliest version of OSX I ever saw...04:17
FireFox16lol x1000004:17
neatojonessome gnome themes are decent.  Ubuntu's are butt ugly.04:17
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FireFox16yup04:17
neatojonesbrown+ugly=butt ugly04:17
jaemhave you seen Dust?04:18
jaemit's actually quite nice, and a lot of people were disappointed that it didn't make Intrepid04:18
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FireFox16Dust?04:19
neatojonesI don't remember.04:19
FireFox16ahh, i hate this connection >.<04:19
jaemhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/DustTheme04:19
FireFox16wow, nice :)04:20
neatojonesunfortunately, gnome has a lot of problems with dark themes.04:21
jaemit does indeed04:21
neatojoneswell, not gnome so much as openoffice and firefox04:21
jaemKDE4 does occasionally too04:21
jaemKopete, anyways04:21
FireFox16i wonder when thay will actually work on that..04:22
jaemI think it's fixed now, but a while back, when I used a dark theme, and then switched to a light theme, it would send all my chat text formatted as almost unreadable light gray, until I restarted the session :(04:22
FireFox16hmm :(04:22
neatojoneswhat engine does Dust use?04:22
jaemMurrine, I thin04:23
jaemthink*04:23
jaemoh well, boardshots will have to wait until after dinner04:25
jaembut I'll have them ASAP, hopefully04:25
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FireFox16metacity, marriene?04:25
FireFox16not shure04:25
FireFox16it uses murrine04:25
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* FireFox16 thinks about actually giving murrine another try..04:31
FireFox16i think i'm pushing my luck :)04:31
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sistoI've tried canola player today05:02
sistoit's quite nice05:02
sistoi liked it better than mediabox05:04
sistomediabox takes to long to load05:04
sistowhat media player does the n810 come with?05:09
Proteousmedia player05:09
sistofrom nokia right?05:09
ProteousI assume05:09
sistoi think it's not open source... but I'm not sure05:11
johnxcorrect, it's closed source05:13
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neatojoneswhat's the terminal command that checks which keyboard style is being used?05:31
b-mannot shure05:33
b-manxmodmap?05:34
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neatojonesah figured it out..setxkbmap -print05:47
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jaemoh man... this bluetooth bracelet may indeed be hackable...05:55
bensonO.o05:56
jaemapparently, I should be able to read the firmware out through the UART05:56
bensonThat sounds like fun05:56
jaemproviding that it's exposed05:56
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jaemthere are some pads that look vaguely like some sort of serial interface05:56
jaembut I haven't investigated yet05:56
jaemit has 8Mb of external flash, and an internal 6Mb ROM05:57
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bensonWhat CPU?06:00
jaemit's running a specialized Bluetooth chip from CSR06:01
jaemit handles BT, battery charging, etc., and has a RISC core that I'm trying to find out more about06:01
jaemthe flash is from Spansion06:01
jaemand I haven't looked into the LCD yet06:02
johnxcraziness. that's a reasonable chunk of storage06:02
jaemindeed it is06:02
johnxcould have it stream a short novel :)06:02
jaemI'm not sure why it needs 8Mb06:02
jaemhahaha06:02
johnxone. word. at. a. time.06:03
jaemI'm writing up a post with a teardown06:03
jaemI'll link you all when I'm done06:03
johnxcool beans06:03
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jaemBT bracelet teardown: http://ffejery.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/everybody-loves-boardshots-right/06:28
jaemmy camera fails at macro, so some shots kind of stink06:29
jaembut what you can't read, I'll add to the post :P06:29
johnxlooks cool, but I'm not terribly helpful for hardware hacking I'm afraid06:34
johnxif you need help getting a serial console on it, I might be able to offer some pointers to things smarter people than me have written at least ;)06:35
jaemthanks06:35
jaemthat might be useful06:35
jaemwhat's an N800 in decent condition worth these days?06:38
johnxdunno really. a used N810 seems to be around $200 now that new ones are $21906:39
johnxebay buy-it-now says $150-$450 :)06:40
benson450! XD06:42
jaemha06:42
jaemthat's ridiculous06:42
johnxyeah, with a 'scratch on the screen'06:42
johnxlooks like he missed the memo06:42
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benson150 or so, from what I've seen. Maybe less, depending on what "decent" condition means.06:42
johnxmine's hot no scratches on the screen, so how about $500 even. what a bargain, eh?06:43
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jaemaww man... the proc on this bracelet has proprietary extensions to the firmware upgrade standard, to allow Tivoization07:01
jaemI hope this company didn't take advantage of that07:01
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jaemapparently it can use public key auth :(07:01
johnxhopefully not. I certainly don't see the money in it for a bt bracelet thing...07:03
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jaemyeah... did you ever hear the story of the guys who defeated Microchip's code-protection on the PICmicros?07:04
johnxnothing at all. haven't even heard of the company or product :)07:07
jaemthey make microcontrollers07:07
jaemand they have a feature to stop people from reading the firmware out of the controller, if the company so desired07:08
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johnxand so someone broke the protection for all the PICs?07:08
jaemwell, they used to use UV-erasable EPROM, and the protection was set by a bitflag in a config word in the main memory07:08
johnx(guess I have heard of the product/company now that I think about it)07:08
jaemso, some guys figured out where in the physical memory layout that bit was, and flipped it with a UV laser07:09
jaem:D07:09
johnxO_o07:09
johnxwell, then get your UV laser out and get working :P07:09
jaemMicrochip mitigated the problem by just putting a little dot over that bit :P07:09
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johnxOMGWTFBBQ! Xfbdev running finally!07:12
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johnxman Xfbdev is one finicky X server. seriously, it segfaults without the proper font path O_o07:14
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jaemouch07:17
johnxand I don't even care since it *actually works*07:18
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luke-jrjohnx: ☺07:21
luke-jrjohnx: I managed to squeeze my N810 into my C76007:21
luke-jrand installed KDE 4.207:21
luke-jrnow it's a sweet little lapto07:21
johnxpics?07:22
luke-jrj/k ☹07:22
johnxyeah, thought so07:22
luke-jrXD]07:22
johnxI tend to give people the benefit of the doubt approximately once07:22
luke-jr>.>07:22
jaemI do so approximately 1.36 times07:23
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jaemmaybe more, if their family has 2.4 children07:23
jaemXD07:23
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* johnx pictures little timmy waving goodbye with all three arms07:24
luke-jrO.o07:24
luke-jrjaem: I have 2.2 children, close enough?07:24
jaemif you can prove it, sure07:24
luke-jrjaem: I can‼07:24
jaemoh wait... that was your first two strikes07:24
luke-jrdo I need to actually do it, though?07:24
jaemyou just wasted your "benefit of the doubt" coupons by lying about your children07:25
luke-jrI didn't lie tho07:25
luke-jrI have family pics with the first two07:25
luke-jrand a sonogram of the .207:25
jaemoh... okay07:25
* johnx doesn't want to go out in the rain, because he might melt :(07:25
* jaem hands johnx an umbrella07:25
johnxyeah, yeah :/07:25
* jaem then pulls out a firehose07:25
luke-jrjohnx: sonograms count as proof, right? :x07:25
jaemprobably07:26
johnxdunno if anything will work as proof for you, you already used up your ~1 'benefit of the doubt' coupon with me :P07:26
jaembut just keep your stories plausable, and we won't need to go into any of this :P07:26
luke-jrjaem: whats not plausable?07:26
jaemhmm07:26
johnxyeah, we can just do the 'suspension of disbelief' thing07:26
johnxusually children are considered to exist in one of two quantum states07:27
jaemluke-jr: here's an example: "oh no, I'm not robbing you, I just happen to have a gun in my hand.  Would you mind making a donation?"07:27
luke-jrwell, then I get to round to 307:27
jaemjohnx: alive or dead?07:27
jaemor both?07:27
johnxchildren or not-children07:27
jaemah07:27
luke-jrjohnx: did my 3rd child exist or not exist before the sonogram? ;)07:28
johnxundefined state?07:28
jaemmore to the point, did the sonogram *change* its state of existence07:28
jaemO.o07:28
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luke-jrjaem: no07:29
luke-jreven if the sonogram causes the quantum state to collapse, it didn't cause the change ;)07:29
jaemhehe07:29
jaemyou know, I figure that whether Schroedinger's cat is alive or dead is a stupid question...07:30
luke-jrI personally am of the opinion that when a quantum state collapses, God chooses which superposition becomes reality.07:30
jaemSchroedinger is dead, and even supposing a cat with nine lives, you'd think it would be dead by now07:30
jaemespecially if good ol' Erwin repeated the experiment a few  times for scientific rigour07:30
luke-jrI'm actually somewhat surprised we have two other people in here familiar with quantum stuff.07:31
jaemoh and yes, PETA killed Schroedinger :P07:31
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johnx<- passing familiarity only07:31
jaemwell, to be honest, I've never taken a course in it - I just know a bit more than enough to make geeky jokes :P07:31
luke-jrjohnx: same here, I think07:31
luke-jrmy interest primarily stemmed from Noein07:31
jaemand of course, I read The Guide07:31
johnxand/or 'Wikipedia simple English edition tells me everything I need to know'07:32
jaemwho?07:32
luke-jrNoein is an anime revolving around MWI07:32
johnxme07:32
jaemah07:32
luke-jrthe bad guy aims to merge all the various universes back into a single superposition07:33
luke-jrbasically by destroying everything :p07:33
johnxand some high school kids stop him in a giant robot?07:33
luke-jrwell, some middle school kids stop him from one of their possible futures07:33
luke-jro.O07:34
jaeminteresting07:34
* johnx called it07:34
luke-jrthe bad guy technically exists as 3 different characters07:34
luke-jrthe middle school version and two of the possible futures07:34
jaemhave you seen the show Futurama?07:35
luke-jrone of his possible futures gets so depressed that he sets out to destroy the multiverse :p07:35
luke-jrno07:35
luke-jrmaybe 1 or 2 episodes years ago07:35
jaemit has some interesting things like that.  In one episode, they travel to various parallel universes...07:35
jaemsuch as ones where everyone is a bobblehead :P07:36
luke-jrO.o07:36
luke-jrwell, one of the possible futures in Noein had everyone as a superposition dependent on a supercomputer observing them07:36
luke-jreg, the humans could no longer be observers07:36
jaemhmm07:37
jaeminteresting07:37
jaemhave you seen the movie "Primer"?07:37
luke-jrnope :p07:37
jaemyou might find it interesting07:37
johnxprimer++ :)07:37
jaemit's available on the Internets, of course, but I'm planning on buying the DVD when I have some cash07:37
jaemit's about time travel, but it's not your typical fantastical sci-fi07:38
jaemit's an independant film, and it's somewhat unconventional07:38
luke-jrI don't think I've ever bought information. <.<07:38
jaembut interesting, and worth a watch07:38
johnxit's entirely self consistent, which is somewhat rare in time travel movies :)07:38
jaemwell, I can understand that, but the guy quit his job as a software engineer to make a movie, because he wanted to do something different, and spent several years on it, with almost no money, so I figure I owe it to him to buy the DVD07:39
jaemjohnx: you've seen it, then?07:39
johnxyes, repeatedly07:39
jaemI need to watch it again07:39
jaemit's rather complicated, and the audio being out of sync didn't help my comprehension07:39
johnxyeah, it definitely is rewatchable07:39
luke-jrjaem: I'd consider buying information if the license was GPL or BSD like07:39
jaemfair enough - I balk at buying software07:40
luke-jrjohnx: Somewhere In Time?07:40
jaembut I still might occasionally do so, if there were no alternative, and I felt it was worth it07:40
* b-man sleeps07:40
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luke-jrpretty sure Somewhere In Time was quite self-consistent07:41
RST38hehlo all07:43
jaemgood day to you07:43
jaemjohnx: I'm pretty sure the UART is accessible :D07:44
jaembut I can't do any more peering at PCBs tonight07:44
jaemmuch less anything more ambitious07:44
johnxstill, good progress for a night :)07:44
johnxhey RST38h07:44
jaemyeah, it is07:44
jaemI still plan to see if I can make it do what I want without modifications of the device, but it's still worth poking around07:45
jaemthere's almost no one in #bluez-users, and I'm having trouble finding good docs07:46
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* RST38h needs wazd: it looks like ti83+ faceplate image is missing08:09
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jaemdoes anyone know how to open up RFCOMM communication with a bluetooth device on Maemo08:13
jaemI think I may have already asked that, but I forget :S08:13
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johnxjaem, check out the bluez-utils-test (or similar?) package08:27
jaemaha!08:27
johnxit should have more of the traditional linux tools like hciconfig08:28
jaembe that available for ze Maemo?08:28
johnxyeah, that's the maemo package08:28
jaemnice - thanks08:28
johnxit's in bluez-utils in most distros08:28
jaemwell, g'night08:28
jaemah08:28
jaemthanks for all the help08:28
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johnxsure, 'night :)08:28
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Stskeepsmorning09:10
qwerty12hi Stskeeps09:10
Stskeepshi qwerty1209:10
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vasily_pupkinanybody knows how to fix GPE Calendar bug with dark themes? (yellow on white)09:24
Corsaccalendars are a pain on maemo :(09:25
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vasily_pupkinyep. but org-mode with emacs is about overhead09:26
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Corsacemacs sucks anyway :)09:30
vasily_pupkin!!!!09:30
qwerty12Ok, break it up.09:30
Stskeepsoi, emacs vs vim war is bad in the morning09:30
qwerty12I don't want to get out the cosh.09:30
vasily_pupkin^_^ But how about gpe calendar? :)09:31
Corsacaren't we friday?09:31
Corsacvasily_pupkin: I don't know but it might be a problem in the theme, too09:32
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vasily_pupkini not very familar with gtk+ and themes. but may be there information about that type of widget missed?09:33
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, the wide dialogs really look a lot better.09:34
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, yeah. They actually seem like you can use them with a finger :)09:34
GeneralAntillesThin dialogs have always been an irritation.09:35
qwerty12It'd be cool if some libhildon goodness from the alpha could be backported to diablo09:35
GeneralAntillesClutter?09:36
Corsacyou guys have started using the alpha SDK UI?09:36
qwerty12I don't think the file chooser dialogs use clutter at least (just kinetic which the N8x0 doesn't do terribly bad at)09:36
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Pavlovdo do do09:37
* qwerty12 looks down at his history homework and looks at the clock and gulps09:37
Pavlovthink we finally have extras all sorted out hurray09:38
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, "shit happened". :P09:38
GeneralAntillesPavlov, congratulations! :P09:38
Pavlovanother few days ;)09:38
GeneralAntillesPavlov, another few days and you can start working on a week of endless build failures? :P09:39
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, lol, I think my history teacher has a Napoleon complex of sorts so I dunno if that would go down too well... :P09:39
Pavlovnah it builds debs and such and signs them09:39
Pavlovthink we're good to go09:39
Pavlovjust getting last fix in before b109:39
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, Napoleon complex like "I'm not OK with being short" or Napoleon complex like "I really love Napoleon"? :P09:40
X-FadeMorning09:40
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, "I'm not OK with being short". Everyone in my class is either the same size as him or taller :P09:41
qwerty12morning X-Fade09:41
GeneralAntillesHa09:41
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, what's the status of Extras .install files these days?09:42
X-FadeNon-existant atm.09:42
Stskeepsqwerty12: a Fremantle backport doesn't seem so difficult really, but it has less potential of attracting developers and it will end up not being maintained :/09:42
qwerty12Stskeeps, yeah, I'm not interested in the whole thing but parts from libhildon would be cool :/09:43
Stskeepsqwerty12: should be trivial but how would you distribute it? :P09:43
qwerty12Stskeeps, license wise?09:44
qwerty12Or just plain distribution?09:44
Stskeepsqwerty12: plain distribution, doubt it would work in extras :P09:44
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, I just take the one it generates for extras-devel and do s/-devel// and s/Devel//09:44
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qwerty12Stskeeps, lol, I never planned to upload it :P09:45
qwerty12(well to Extras I mean)09:45
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Stskeepsqwerty12: i bet you thought about it ;p09:45
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, unfortunately it's missing a few. http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/diablo/install/09:45
GeneralAntilless/I/It/09:45
GeneralAntillesNevermind09:45
* GeneralAntilles puts his glasses on.09:45
X-Fadeqwerty12: The .installs get generated when a packages comes through the incoming queue.09:46
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, yeah, it's odd that way (why does it love non-free) :( but extras-devel has a greater range: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/diablo/install/09:46
X-FadeBuilder puts files in the incoming queue for extras-devel.09:46
GeneralAntillesjeremiah_, ping?09:46
X-FadePromoter doesn't use the queue..09:46
X-FadeThe promoter would need to be changed to move files to the queue, instead of directly copying files into the repo.09:47
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X-FadeBut maybe danielwilms can help with that ;)09:47
danielwilmsyep...yesterday I did not have time to look in the code...but it is a good point09:48
danielwilmsI will see what I can do ;)09:49
X-Fadedanielwilms: Heh. Well it would be a nice thing to have and a well defined task to start off..09:50
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danielwilmsX-Fade: yep that's true09:51
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, do you have that application karma mockup link handy from yesterday?10:07
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MyFedora/Mockups#Package_Details ?10:08
GeneralAntillesThat's the one, thanks.10:08
GeneralAntillesI'm gonna wireframe a task page for application karma.10:08
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Don't confuse this karma with application karma.10:08
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: This is karma for the _package_10:09
GeneralAntillesRight10:09
GeneralAntillesWhat's the term we want to use to make it as clear as possible?10:09
GeneralAntillesKarma for applications?10:09
GeneralAntilles(still sounds like user karma for applications)10:09
X-FadeKarma for applications is to be used to push cool, userfriendly apps of the moment to the top.10:10
X-FadeSo one can see what is hot at the moment.10:10
X-FadeIt would make picking 'Pearls' be community based and automatic.10:11
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X-FadeIt helped a lot for the news page, which is now essentially publicly moderated.10:12
GeneralAntillesRight, but are we calling it "Karma for applications"?10:12
X-FadeYeah, I don't see any other clear options?10:13
GeneralAntillesNo, just making sure. ;)10:13
* Stskeeps tries to pitch the Touch Book to people at work.10:17
GeneralAntillesGadget whore. :P10:19
Stskeepshehe10:21
* hugo33 hums the Inspector Gadget theme10:22
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JaffaMorning, all11:00
lbtMorning11:00
lbtGAN800: so, I added Maemo-Upgrade-Description: Zoom now changes the text size; Improved(?) look; Finger scrolling feel improved a lot11:01
lbtto my control file but I don't see it in App Mgr11:01
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Jaffalbt: If it's in the control file, you need to prefix it with XB-; that tells dpkg-buildpackage to include it in the binary control file11:02
lbtd'oh11:02
lbtwell, it was late :)11:02
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lbtbut even the line above is 'XB-'Maemo-Display-Name: Shopper11:03
lbt<sigh>11:03
lbtroll on extras-experimental11:03
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Jaffa:)11:09
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GeneralAntillesAnybody have any objections to https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3576#c3 ?11:18
sampohey11:22
X-FadeI think that we need a shorter way to write "content on this site is11:22
X-Fadelicensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License"11:22
sampois there a fix for that slow responsiveness in alpha sdk emulator?11:22
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sampoon my laptop this is very slow, but on my desktop pc it runs fine11:22
* Myrtti has...11:23
MyrttiAll content created by the author <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"><img src="http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-sa/3.0/80x15.png" alt="Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike" /></a>, rest &copy; respective copyright holders11:23
Myrttion her blog footer11:23
aquatixX-Fade: maybe use the logo?11:23
Myrttithough I think there was something else that was needed too11:23
X-FadeMyrtti: I'd like to put that in the new website's footer. So it needs to be small ;)11:23
GeneralAntillesaquatix, yeah, that's what I was thinking11:23
GeneralAntillesBut accessibility suffers a bit.11:23
GeneralAntillesI guess the alt tag will suffice for that, though.11:24
Myrttiah, yes.11:24
Myrtti<a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"><img alt="Creative Commons License" style="border-width:0" src="http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-sa/3.0/88x31.png" />11:24
Myrtti<a rel="license" is the relevant part11:24
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aquatixGeneralAntilles: yep, alt and title tags11:24
GeneralAntillesaquatix, too quick. :P11:24
* GeneralAntilles was gonna say title.11:25
aquatix:)11:25
GeneralAntilleshttp://i.creativecommons.org/l/by/3.0/80x15.png11:26
Myrtti11:26
JaffaX-Fade: "All content under <img alt="" title="" />, unless otherwise specified"11:26
Myrttiglad to be of assistance11:27
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X-FadeFooter changed on http://newstyle.maemo.org/11:31
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GeneralAntillesCan we drop the sponsored by?11:32
X-FadeI think that part is fair?11:33
GeneralAntillesI recall Quim saying it would go.11:33
GeneralAntillesI actually don't mind it (having a pretty little Nokia logo down there is kind of nice, actually) but I dunno if Nokia actually wants it there.11:33
GeneralAntillesThe big CC image doesn't look great inline.11:35
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GeneralAntillesIt's too bad there's no (cc) in Unicode.11:36
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aquatixX-Fade: hm, the footer isn't correctly aligned vertically inside that bar11:39
aquatixthe text i mean11:39
MyrttiI still chuckle at the Reference manual footer :-P11:39
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Myrttiit gives me infinite amount of joy :-D11:40
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aquatixMyrtti: which is that?11:40
Myrttiaquatix: http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/ :-P11:41
* GeneralAntilles sighs at Engadget and SDXC11:41
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GeneralAntillesWhat a phenomenal marketing win for an unnecessary bullshit standard "upgrade".11:41
X-Fadeaquatix: No, I guess the image screws up the alignment.11:41
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, maybe something like this? http://www.innovationjournalism.org/blog/uploaded_images/creative_commons_bw-764395.gif11:42
MyrttiX-Fade: put a img padding-top:2px; ?11:42
aquatixX-Fade: vertical-align:middle; ?11:42
aquatixon the image?11:42
Myrtti... or that11:42
aquatixMyrtti: you're talking about the `Powered by LaTeX2HTML' part of that footer?11:43
X-FadeI'll let Neithan fix that ;)11:43
Myrttiaquatix: :-P11:43
aquatix:)11:43
Myrtti*cough*11:43
* aquatix <3 LaTeX11:43
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Myrttiit's not altogether true, it should be s/LaTeX2HTML/LaTeX2HTML, large amounts of coffee and sexy bash-sed-awk hacking/11:44
* Myrtti loves LaTeX11:46
aquatix:)11:46
JaffaX-Fade: suggestion: if we have a "sponsored by nokia", make the image smaller and put that in the centre; then the CC logo image will look better on the right side, with "all content under\nunless otherwise specified" to the left of the image.11:47
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* Myrtti huggles sed ♥ 11:51
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radic__how can I use java-programs on my N800?12:05
hahlois sun jre compiled for maemo?12:07
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Jaffaradic__: see Jalimo12:09
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JaffaOpenJDK has been compiled, but there's no ARM Hotspot JIT, so typically cacaovm is used.12:09
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MyrttiI feel like a kid in a sandbox baking sand cakes12:18
Myrtti"patpat"12:18
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aquatixghehehe12:19
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Jaffainz: ping12:22
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inzJaffa, pong12:24
inzJaffa, you were in luck, that's probably the fastest ping time ever from me ;)12:24
Jaffainz: Any chance of your mate doing x86_64 versions of the fremantle Scratchbox requirements?12:24
* Jaffa is wondering the best way of upgrading his diablo setarched install into a fremantle one (alongside)12:25
inzJaffa, I'll ask12:25
Jaffata12:25
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inzJaffa, seems to be away, I'll get back when I get a reply12:28
* Myrtti pokes inz, runs away and yells "TAG!"12:29
inzMyrtti, it didn't count, you missed me, I wasn't part of the game, I was safe!12:30
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lardmanmorning12:31
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Myrtti:-(12:31
Myrttispoilsport12:31
* lbt tags Myrtti12:32
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RST38xIs wazd around? =)12:42
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* GeneralAntilles stabs Photoshop repeatedly.12:47
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lardmanwhat's up GeneralAntilles?12:47
GeneralAntillesThey seem to have removed the option to make cmd-h behave normally from CS4.12:47
lardmanI was trying to get fake tilt-shift processing to work in the gimp, but it was such a pita that I wrote my own fn in MATLAB12:49
* lardman doesn't have photoshop12:49
Jaffalardman: see, you can't escape DSP programming even when doing photo work :)12:52
lardmanyeah, I didn't do it on the n8x0 though!12:53
lardman:)12:53
lardmanthough once I get Octave compiled again, I could do....12:54
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inzlardman, why don't you do dsp-accelerated octave12:58
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lardmanyeah, that was my plan when I bought my 77012:59
lardmannever got round to it, had to learn DSP programming first12:59
lardmanand I foolishly bit of more than I could chew trying to port tremor13:02
lardmans/of/off13:02
Jaffadneary: ping13:02
Jaffadneary: no attachment on last -community message13:03
dnearywow! That was quick13:03
dnearyIndeed, no attachment.13:03
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dnearyDo you have it now?13:07
dnearyI sent the attachment 2 secs ago13:07
dnearyDon't say anything about visual design13:07
* Jaffa wouldn't dare ;)13:07
JaffaGah, gmail won't let me download it and is showing it inline.13:08
dnearyHaha!13:08
dnearySo is it working?13:08
* Jaffa uses "show original" and c&p :)13:08
dnearyI am pretty sure all the Javascript I used is standard & works in IE too13:08
dnearyWent a long way not to use GetElementByName13:08
* Myrtti huggles her pink emacs13:09
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Jaffadneary: I've put it here for testing: http://www.flegg.org/~andrew/step2.html13:12
dnearyJaffa: OK13:13
Jaffadneary: Is it supposed to have two sets of the candidates (as test data)?13:13
Stskeepshttp://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-slowly.png13:13
dnearyWhy does it double member lists?13:13
dnearyAh13:13
dnearyI wee13:13
dnearysee13:13
dnearyLet me edit & resend13:13
Stskeeps(we are slowly and firmly getting closer :P)13:13
dnearyThe problem was that I did a funky thing with it13:13
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, too slow! Work faster!13:15
GeneralAntillesdneary, fantastic.13:16
dnearyGeneralAntilles: You like?13:16
* lcuk gives gan a code editor and makes him get down the mine13:16
GeneralAntillesdneary, one of the reasons I didn't like the idea of STV is because I was picturing a reall godawful implementation of the voting software13:16
dnearyGeneralAntilles: I know a thing or two about user interfaces ;)13:16
GeneralAntillesEvery implementation of this method I've seen has been in really bad survey software.13:17
GeneralAntillesBig grid of radio buttons13:17
GeneralAntillesCan we get up/down arrows on the right side?13:17
lcukwhy doint we ask diebold to give us a few of their layouts :D13:18
dnearyGlad you like it - it took me a couple of days to get right13:18
dnearyThe up/down arrows are asking a bit much13:18
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dnearyI would like the preferences to be at the right13:18
dnearyaway13:18
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lcukStskeeps, looks sweet, you even have a cancel button!13:21
Stskeepswe do? :P13:21
Stskeepsoh, right13:21
Stskeepszenity, a heathen13:21
Stskeeps:P13:21
lcukwould like to do something aobut tickboxes and lists though if possible13:21
lcukas an example that ticklist you have has 2 items but is using only about 20% of the list area13:22
Jaffadneary: updated http://www.flegg.org/~andrew/step2.html - looking good13:22
X-Fadedneary: The double candidates list pointed out that layout breaks when > 6 candidates. Is that enough?13:23
GeneralAntillesGet rid of the hardcoded element height?13:24
GeneralAntillesFloat the two lists13:24
GeneralAntillesI guess you could calculate the element height by the number of candidates?13:24
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: height = number of candidates * 1.8em13:27
Jaffaor, better, dneary ---^13:28
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lbtSo shopper is now in Extras (or will be soon) - how do I get a page up on http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/  ??13:32
RST38xlbt: you go to that address and click Add a new project13:32
lbthow twee :)13:33
lbtis that different to garage then?13:33
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* GeneralAntilles just noticed he's been holding a dead tablet in his lap for the last 20 minutes.13:34
X-Fadelbt: https://maemo.org/downloads/product/create/OS2008/application.html13:34
RST38xGeneral: Were you singing it lullabies?13:34
lbtits not dead - its sleeping13:34
GeneralAntillesRST38x, I was planning on plugging it in, but I got sidetracked by poking at dneary's voting software.13:34
lbtX-Fade: doesn't that page needs a "link to a garage project" kind of thing13:36
X-Fadelbt: Why?13:36
Jaffalbt: You can set your garage project as the homepage, why else would it need one?13:36
JaffaGarage, extras and download are all separate13:36
lbt'cos I typed in all the same stuff to setup a garage project IIRC13:36
lbtJaffa: bug or feature?13:36
RST38xGeneral: Feed the poor thing some electricity =)13:37
lbtgiven I register in garage publish in extras and promote on downloads...13:37
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RST38xlbt: it does not get "promoted" to downloads13:37
RST38xlbt: You create a page in downloads and place there an .install file that points to extras. that is all13:37
lbtin the "marketed" sense RST38x13:37
sampowhen is itt goingo to change to talk.maemo.org ?13:37
lbtpromoted *on* downloads :)13:38
RST38xah13:38
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lbtI just feel that they are a little too seperate - garage has no link to the release in extras for example...13:38
lbtI have to upload source again to my garage page13:39
GeneralAntillessampo, should be within the next month or so.13:39
sampoGeneralAntilles: ok, thanx13:39
lbtseems like they could/should be coupled13:39
inzJaffa, ping13:43
inzJaffa, http://www.ipi.fi/~pablo/13:43
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GeneralAntilleslbt, what 0.5.x release have there been?13:43
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lbt0.5.1, 0.5.2, 0.5.3, 0.5.4, 0.5.513:46
Jaffainz: cool stuff13:46
lbtI was busy last night13:46
lbtbut not very accurate :)13:47
lbt0.5.3 was the proper one. 0.5.4 fixed a crash bug and I noticed that I missed the XB- from Maemo-Upgrade-Description.... hence 0.5.5 :)13:48
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GeneralAntilleslbt, Shopper triaged.13:53
dnearyX-Fade: Away for lunch... but I thought that setting a height on a div expanded with the contents13:53
GeneralAntillesFeel free to mark VERIFIED.13:53
dnearyNeed CSS skillz to fix13:53
GeneralAntilles150px is 150px13:54
dnearyJaffa: Yes, maybe height=n*1.8em if there's a way to do that nicely in the PHP13:54
dnearyOpen to suggestions - that's superficial13:54
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GeneralAntillesHeight based on number of candidates would work, but I dunno how to implement it.13:55
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lbtcan anyone suggest a linux website editor for a noob - bluefish is not WYSIWYG enough14:03
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GeneralAntilleslbt, surely not for you? :P14:06
lbtmy wife :)14:06
lbtapparently emacs "isn't it"14:07
Myrttihmm14:07
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Myrttikompozer?14:07
GeneralAntillesHa14:07
lbtTa Myrtti - I also got quanta and nvu suggested on #linux FWIW ...14:10
Myrttilbt: nvu == kompozer14:11
Myrttinvu was dropped/renamed to kompozer14:11
lbtoh, I didn't realise...14:11
Myrttibefore that it was the "netscape editor" ;-)14:11
Myrttiiirc quanta is basically a text editor as well14:12
lbtdoes it work on windows? We're doing this for a friend...14:12
Myrttiyes14:12
Myrttikompozer, that is14:12
lbtmmm - that could be goof14:12
lbts/f/d/14:12
infobotlbt meant: mmm - that could be good14:12
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Stskeepshttp://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-menubutton.png , http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-appmenu.png14:15
Stskeeps(i am -crap- at artwork.)14:15
X-FadeStskeeps: We can see that, but other than that. Cool stuff :)14:16
RST38xSts: Need wazd right away14:16
Stskeepsyeah, i'm a coder, not a designer :P14:18
JaffaStskeeps: that website seems even slower today than usual. I can't get anything up, and am having to use work's VPN14:20
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* Jaffa wonders why his DSL connection hates you ;-)14:20
crashanddiewho's Aniello del Sorbo here on IRC14:23
Jaffacrashanddie: anidel14:24
crashanddiehmm14:24
GeneralAntillesHi, crashanddie.14:24
crashanddiehey GA14:25
crashanddieanidel needs to get himself a spellcheck14:25
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, did wazd ever give you a nice png of just the white logo?14:25
Stskeepsyeah, he did14:25
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, use that for the menu.14:25
Stskeepstrue14:25
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Stskeepsi'll have to grab wazd anyway14:26
RST38xGeneral: BTW, got TI83+ up and running14:26
RST38xComing to a repo near you as soon as I catch wazd and ask him to do the skin14:26
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: what's new?14:27
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, not all that much.14:27
GeneralAntillesReady for Spring Break.14:27
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* lcuk thinks the channel has a strange smell14:27
lcukoh, hi crashanddie14:28
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AndrewFBlackMorning14:31
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: as always, you're being a slacky student :P14:31
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, and? :P14:31
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, I'm assuming the alpha didn't sneak past you?14:32
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* AndrewFBlack has goten bored and resurrected his Web Based Pim project.14:44
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GeneralAntillesOh, SDXC.14:50
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lardmanha, take that shearography14:50
* lardman has got his code to work14:50
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GeneralAntillesIt's amazing that people fall for this shit.14:52
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RST38xANOTHER memory card format?14:54
GeneralAntillesRST38x, well, it's SDHC with the artificial limitations lifted.14:55
* RST38x ponders enqueuing memory card format designers for elimination, right after audio framework designers14:55
RST38xGeneral: Well, that sounds relatively harmless14:55
GeneralAntillesExcept for exFAT14:55
GeneralAntillesBasically, they let the full 22-bits of memory space be addressed and switched to exFAT.14:56
GeneralAntillesNow millions of people are going to have to replace their artificially crippled consumer electronics14:56
GeneralAntillesand Linux is fucked.14:57
RST38xWonderful14:58
RST38xMy guess is they will have to implement a compatibility mode14:59
RST38xUse FAT32 or something14:59
GeneralAntillesThe good news is that current Linux devices will have no issue using it as long as you switch to something other than exFAT14:59
GeneralAntillesSince they've addressed the full 22-bits (versus the spec-limited 16-bits) since the beginning.15:00
GeneralAntillesSome details in this thread: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2418015:00
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lcukanyone know the resolution of the nintendo dsi15:07
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* timeless looks for someone w/ experience using evil software15:14
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inztimeless, define evil15:16
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, I'm fairly certain it's the same as the DS/DSlite15:23
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lcukGeneralAntilles, ok, was just a ponderment, its got cameras and stuff now.15:43
lcukamazing what they manage with 166mhz of arm :)15:43
GeneralAntillesThe DSlite is less.15:44
GeneralAntillesBut, really, what's amazing is what you can accomplish when you can actually optimize for a certain piece of hardware.15:45
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GeneralAntillesWhat's more impressive is what they did with the ~1.7MHz in the NES. ;)15:46
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RST38xGeneral: NES is a special case16:06
RST38xin fact, anything with tiled graphics is a special case16:06
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GeneralAntillesHowdy, alterego.16:08
alteregoGood afternoon :)16:08
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: so your beagle happy now?16:08
alteregoHave you seen that netbook/tablet thing with the OMAP3 in it?16:09
Stskeepsyeah16:09
alteregoThat looks neat. 10-15hours battery life :)16:09
Stskeepswant.16:09
Stskeepsat least. with mer on top .. :P16:09
alteregoI knew I should have held off getting the Dell Mini ;)16:09
alteregoBut my Dell mini is still nice :)16:10
RST38xwhat netbook thing?16:10
RST38xurl?16:10
StskeepsRST38x: http://i.gizmodo.com/5162584/first-hands-on-touch-book-is-part+netbook-part+tablet16:11
RST38xthanks16:11
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RST38xhuge and made of ugly iMacish transparent plastic (not blue though, which is a plus)16:12
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StskeepsRST38x: on the other hand, it's a mobile beagleboard16:12
StskeepsRST38x: and the actual model is not transparent16:13
alteregoI wouldn't say it's "huge".16:13
alteregoIt's got a netbook size screen and plenty of extendibility.16:14
JaffaRST38x: that's the prototype16:14
StskeepsRST38x: https://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/16:14
RST38xit is cool indeed16:14
Stskeepsalso, -internal usb ports- :P16:14
RST38xyea, nice touch16:15
RST38xthat is how every netbook has to be made16:15
Stskeepsdid you look at the price?16:15
Stskeeps400$ for the keyboard (with one of the batteries) and tablet together (with another battery)16:15
GeneralAntillesalterego, only an OMAP3530, unfortunately, though.16:16
JaffaBelieve it when they're shipping, of course.16:17
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GeneralAntillesalterego, it'd be more feasible as a Mini 9 replacement if it were an OMAP3440 (or OMPA3540 if they offered one)16:17
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StskeepsJaffa: of course.. though i guess it counts when there's actual friggen schematics on their page and koen of angstrom actually talks to the guy :P16:17
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, well, it still needs a real SD card.16:17
Stskeepsand the guy has made actual devices before (zonbu, etc)16:17
GeneralAntillesand I still need to actually flash some working pieces onto the NAND.16:17
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alteregoGeneralAntilles: well, that depends what you use the netbook for ;) I'd be happy if I can get a full days Ruby coding on one battery charge :)16:20
GeneralAntillesalterego, yeah, that's true.16:20
papagajhi, I am trying to run the second debug example (from http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/node15.html) on the device, however I always get the error16:20
papagajline 1: syntax error: word unexpected (expecting ")")16:20
GeneralAntillesI'd like to see what a real manufacturer is likely to churn out in the form of an ARM-based netbook, though.16:21
papagajit is like maemo is interpreting it as a shell script?16:21
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Foleo? ;-)16:21
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, well, something that actually makes it to the market, has a real OS and is Cortex A8-based or better. ;)16:22
Jaffa:)16:23
alteregoCortex A9! :)16:23
RST38xDoes "real OS" means one from Microsoft? =)16:23
GeneralAntillesRST38x, perhaps by your definition.16:24
GeneralAntillesBut not by mine.16:24
GeneralAntillesReal OS means something generic than I can actually install real applications on.16:24
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Stskeepsubuntu?16:24
Stskeeps:P16:24
alteregoubuntu!16:24
GeneralAntillesNot a proprietary Palm wonderland.16:24
GeneralAntillesYes, something like Ubuntu.16:24
Stskeepstouch book seems to do that :P16:24
RST38x"real applications" = MS Office? =)16:24
* RST38x cackles16:24
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: Maemo doesn't qualify as real applications? ;)16:24
alteregoI think we all know the answer to that :P16:25
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I'd go for that, too.16:25
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, but if the manufacturer isn't Nokia, it's not likely to be Maemo.16:25
GeneralAntillesSo, let's just say "Linux".16:25
RST38xWell, I would say Ubuntu Linux16:26
RST38x(RedHat and Debian probably also satisfy, but Ubuntu is better)16:26
alteregoPlus ARM and ubuntu are working together ..16:26
jumpuladebian. always debian.16:27
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alteregoUbuntu is debian16:27
* RST38x notices that if general wants a Linux tablet, there is plenty of MIDs around16:27
alteregoJust more polished for desktop yes.16:27
jumpulait's debian based16:27
RST38xAtom based, indeed, but they will run Linux just fine16:27
jumpulabut definetly not debian16:27
JaffaRST38x: not many cheap or with decent battery life16:27
alteregoUbuntu == Debian + Desktopness16:28
Jaffa(unless I missed one)16:28
GeneralAntillesRST38x, I didn't say tablet.16:28
GeneralAntillesRST38x, I said netbook.16:28
RST38xJaffa: Well, a recent trip to the local electrnics market has shown at least 3-4 bearable ones16:28
GeneralAntillesI also said ARM-based.16:28
jumpulaubuntu = something like debian, but more unstable16:28
RST38xGeneral: even easier to find16:28
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GeneralAntillesRST38x, so, please, go re-read the scrollback before you start proposing solutions. ;)16:28
RST38xGeneral: No, I understood your initial request, but if you just need a netbook with Linux, won't an Atom one be sufficient?16:29
RST38xGeneral: Given that the software is portable between them16:29
GeneralAntillesRST38x, I'm getting one of those.16:29
RST38xah16:29
RST38xThey do make it to 5-6 hours, some of them16:30
GeneralAntillesBut what I SAID was that I'd be interested to see what a real manufacturer would come up with in the way of an ARM-based netbook running Linux.16:30
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GeneralAntillesSo, while Atom-based tablets and netbooks are really just wonderful suggestions, they really don't apply here. :)16:30
RST38xYea16:31
* RST38x does suspect that the more important point isn't how the device will look (it will look the same as atom one) but how energy efficient it is16:32
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RST38xAnd that depends on the OS supplier rather than manufacturer16:32
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RST38xOn the other hand you get 3-4 times less hardware (physically), so you get more options on how it will look16:33
roopewell, it's relevant if you want to keep it running and online all the time.16:33
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roopeotherwise current laptops already work well.16:33
JaffaBig, heavy, slow to go in & out of standby.16:34
ShadowJKAren't there a few doing arm based netbooks? (sorry if this is redundant, didn't read back yet)16:34
roopea macbook for instance.16:34
Jaffaroope: ok, a macbook might be nicer. Unfortunately, can't convince work to buy me one16:34
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JaffaSo I've got another Dell (yesterday, nice screen)16:34
roopemac resistance is a bit funny, we also have it.16:35
roopeespecially once you can just install windows or linux on it.16:35
GeneralAntillesShadowJK, no, not really.16:35
GeneralAntillesShadowJK, it kinda depends on your definition of netbook, and how far you want to go back.16:36
* Jaffa wouldn't mind OS X (all I'm running most of the time is Firefox, Eclipse, MySQL and... Outlook :-/)16:36
GeneralAntillesShadowJK, but the only Cortex A8-based thing is the Touch Book.16:36
roopeOS X is pretty nice.16:36
GeneralAntillesroope, laptops are big and nasty.16:36
GeneralAntillesroope, Macbooks aren't any better.16:36
suihkulokkiA arm-based netbook could easily weight half of asus eeepc, be half thinner and still have same screen/keyboard size and batteries that last many times longer than eee16:36
RST38xJaffa: My Toshiba is not heavy and not big16:37
RST38xJaffa: And it goes off standby in ~30 seconds16:37
ShadowJKIt's funny that the same thing is happening to atom that happened to centrino16:37
suihkulokkiand (also not be unbearably hot when kept on lap)16:37
GeneralAntillessuihkulokki, personally, I'd rather it be the same size and filled with batteries. :D16:37
RST38xShadow: ?16:37
ShadowJKWhen centrino was new, battery life was superb, then it degraded to the 2-3 hours again16:37
JaffaRST38x: 30 seconds falls into *my* definition of "slow"16:37
roope3-4 hours for a macbook is rather ok for me.16:37
ShadowJKAnd now  we're seeing atom laptops with 2-3 hour battery life :P16:37
roopeit sleeps and wakes up pretty much instant.16:37
RST38xJaffa: Well, I switch it rarely enough to not consider it a problem16:38
RST38xJaffa: And it ran for 8 hours off its batteries when they were new16:38
ShadowJKSo that touchbook thing seems awesome if they've stuffed the keyboard part full of batteries16:38
GeneralAntillesroope, I dunno how people put up with Windows' godawful hibernation behaviors.16:38
RST38xah16:38
roopega: yes, it's bad.16:39
ShadowJKand of course olpc/xo suspends/resumes so fast they do it all the time..16:39
GeneralAntillesroope, but the formfactor I'm looking for is ~9" screen.16:39
* Jaffa can't pre-order a touch book anyway16:39
roopeyeah, the no mans land.16:39
* ShadowJK can't pre-order either :-(16:39
GeneralAntillesThe OMAP3640 is just passing the performance threshold to really be a laptop replacement.16:40
RST38xJaffa,Shadow: Rejoice yourself remembering Pandora16:40
JaffaRST38x: well, a "pre-order notification send no money now"16:40
GeneralAntillesSlap an OMAP3640 in a Dell Mini 9 or HP Mini 1000 and you're golden.16:40
RST38xah, that is fair at least16:40
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* Jaffa ain't sendin' nobody no money ;)16:41
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* ShadowJK never quite found out what pandora is/was about16:41
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JaffaShadowJK: Overly optimistic/naive people thinking that all it takes is a good idea to produce small-runs of a customised "perfect" gaming device at a low price.16:41
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ShadowJKThe concept of having a /group/ of people making something, anything, "perfect" scares me16:43
GeneralAntillesActually, I wonder where the Pandora would be if TI hadn't stepped in to help them.16:43
JaffaNowhere.16:43
JaffaOr maybe some Beagleboard-based/inspired prototypes coming out now16:44
lbtcan I rsync files to garage for my website?16:44
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Jaffalbt: commit them to a 'www' directory16:45
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GeneralAntilleslbt, dunno about rsync, but, um svn?16:46
ShadowJK"while money had already been raised to purchase the parts for the initial production run, the manufacturing costs had not been covered by their initial investment"16:46
ShadowJKwhat? they forgot?16:46
lbtah, OK - ta16:46
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RST38xShadow: these guys never did any production16:51
RST38xShadow: so, they ended up with another Optimus Maximus :)16:51
lbtwhat happened to git.maemo.org16:53
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GeneralAntilleslbt, it's in "beta".16:56
Myrttioohh... http://huopio.fi/simo/blog/2009/03/rfid-calling-cards-for-osx-and-skype.html16:57
lbtI'm on the garage project page :) The wiki suggested that phases 1+2 are done16:57
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GeneralAntilleslbt, I'm not really sure what the status is.16:58
GeneralAntillesYou'd have to talk to tekojo or ferenc.16:58
lbtsigh - the UI for garage is really naff16:58
RST38xMyrtti: ...and to make it turn lights on, you would have to bring a light switch and show it to the computer16:58
aquatixMyrtti: heh, neat16:58
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GeneralAntilleslbt, yeah, we all hate gforge.16:59
lbt:D17:00
MyrttiRST38x: of course the kid can turn the lights on herself, doh.17:00
lbtI#17:00
lbtI'm just trying to respond to the "volunteers wanted"17:00
MyrttiRST38x: or with some home automation thing that has a web gui17:00
RST38xMyrtti: Just considering possibilities =)17:00
Myrttibut that is so wicked.17:00
aquatixMyrtti: neat way of creating an intuitive interface to voip software17:01
RST38xYou are all forgetting that it requires carrying a stack of cards17:01
* aquatix sees other possibilities too17:01
aquatixRST38x: nah, just having them with your pc17:01
RST38xWon't saying "call mama" aloud do a better trick?17:01
lbtThere is a section headed "Read More/Comment" ... and the only way to make a comment is to click "Start a new Thread" - what is wrong with "Leave comment"17:01
aquatixRST38x: maybe17:02
lbtbah!17:02
GeneralAntilleslbt, I'm in favor of leaving gforge unconscious in an abandoned house and setting it on fire, but what can you do?17:03
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lbtfind a virtual nightstick?17:03
MyrttiRST38x: consider speech impediments, or dementia or...17:03
MyrttiRST38x: that has usecases for the elderly as well17:04
GeneralAntillesand give it to gforge to use against us?17:04
GeneralAntillesSure.17:04
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lbtso GeneralAntilles - is the newer shopper looking/feeling better?17:05
GeneralAntilleslbt, checked the packaging bugs, but haven't actually gotten around to opening it.17:06
lbtheh17:06
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GeneralAntillesThat's special, my 360 came back in Spanish.17:15
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GeneralAntilleslbt, looking at the alpha screenshots, I actually think Fremantle will improve the UI a lot by default.17:20
GeneralAntillesAnyway, I don't love the colors.17:20
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sampois it possible to get sound out from maemo emulator?17:20
lbtmy wife does :)17:21
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lbtI started using the Qt css support17:21
lbtbut the tablet just isn't up to it under 4.417:21
GeneralAntillesHow's 4.5?17:21
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GeneralAntillesMaybe try a light-gray for the category background?17:21
lbtreleased but I've not got it yet17:21
GeneralAntillesand, please, leave the text color normal. :P17:22
lbtI'd like it to be configurable - the first thing to do was get the damn colours to change!!17:22
lbtmainly I was interested in the size17:22
GeneralAntillesIs there a size difference from 0.5.4?17:23
lbtzoom works17:23
GeneralAntillesAh, I see.17:24
lbt(Although there are some glitches in Qt I think)17:24
lbtand I think the finger scrolling is much improved17:25
lbtsomething was sending out mouseMoveEvents that weren't quite spot on17:25
GeneralAntilless/More>>>/Categories.../17:28
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lardman|gonecu chaps17:29
lbtI thought that but it's really about 'add/re-order categories'17:30
lbtand I don't like the word Category either17:30
lbtmaybe Group?17:31
lbtAisle is too specific for some users17:31
GeneralAntillesSomething, just drop the >>> :P17:32
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lbtI think "New" would work17:33
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GeneralAntilleslardman|gone. . . .17:38
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dnearyHi17:46
dnearyDidn't see lardman|gone send his self-nomination either yet17:47
dnearyHas it slipped his mind?17:47
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GeneralAntillesDunno, but he may "slip" down a flight of stairs if he doesn't. :P17:47
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dnearyAnd how about Reggie? Seems appropriate that the ITT guy be on there during the maemo talk move17:48
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Guysoft422hey, installed debian chroot, is there a way to get more install space?17:50
dnearyI was trying to think of prominent Nokia people who would be great17:50
dnearymvo comes to mind, Quim of course, but I suspect he wants to maintain a little distance from the council17:50
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dnearyI kind of feel like I'm working for the council, so I don't want to be my boss any more than I am now17:51
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GeneralAntillesYeah, it'd be nice to get a Nokian involved.17:51
JaffaI surprised that, to date, we've had *fewer* declarations than the first one.17:51
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GeneralAntillesSomebody needs to break the ice.17:51
GeneralAntillesJaffa, isn't it 1:1 with anidel's nomination?17:51
dnearyJaffa: Thanks for forwarding on17:52
JaffaI thought we had 7 last time?17:52
GeneralAntillesDon't we have 7 now?17:52
dnearyGeneralAntilles: 617:52
* GeneralAntilles isn't very good at math. ;)17:52
dnearyI think17:52
JaffaDefinitely 617:52
dnearyBut 4 of those came in in the last 48 hours, IIRC17:52
dneary(I mean, 4 of last year's 7)17:52
JaffaAh17:52
JaffaTrue, eduardo was a stalking horse candidate ;-)17:53
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GeneralAntillesI think I'll poke sjgadsby.17:53
JaffaAye17:53
GeneralAntillesI'm quite certain he'll plead lack of time, though.17:53
GeneralAntillesThat's really the biggest problem.17:53
GeneralAntillesEverybody's got no time.17:53
JaffaFor someone like sjgadsby not much more's required than what he's already doing though17:54
GeneralAntillesYeah, true.17:54
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RST38xGot more candidates?17:54
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GeneralAntilleshttp://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community_Council/Candidate_declarations_for_March_200917:55
JaffaRST38x: All declared candidates at ... oh, err, ----^17:55
RST38xaha17:55
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* GeneralAntilles considers coercing timeless into running. :D17:56
lcukquestion re maemo itself: since maemo is becoming an autonomous entity where is its hq gonna be17:56
GeneralAntilleslcuk, "Maemo" is a Nokia software platform.17:56
GeneralAntilles___maemo.org___ is the autonomous entity.17:56
Stskeepsi vote for maemo.org HQ inside GeneralAntilles's G4.17:57
RST38xlcuk: Why, of course in Rlyeh!17:57
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lcukwheres rlyeh17:57
lcukStskeeps, i almost misread that as inside ga's ass17:57
dnearyWell, the council is what you make of it17:57
GeneralAntillestimeless's campaign slogan can be "-, timeless is not nice"17:57
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dnearyThe time requirements are really dependent on what the council wants to do itself, spread across the community, or leave to maemo.org staff17:58
RST38xlcuk: Where the Wise Tentacled One sleeps17:58
inztimeless – more evil than MS word17:58
dnearyGeneralAntilles: Maemo is everything, actually17:58
* RST38x won't vote for timeless, sorry17:58
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dnearyMaemo Software is Nokia17:58
dnearyMaemo platform is the software17:59
GeneralAntillesMaemo is a Nokia trademark.17:59
dnearyGeneralAntilles: See the Maemo branding page17:59
johnx_wow. just in time for this discussion again. It's like groundhog's day...17:59
GeneralAntillesSo lcuk's usage is clearly inaccurate.17:59
dnearyMaemo - Open source software platform for mobile devices. Developed by Nokia in collaboration with the Maemo community and some of the best open source upstream projects.17:59
zeenix"Maemo Rocks" is my trademark :)17:59
* RST38h suggests putting this discussion back to sleep17:59
dnearyjohnx_: It seems like it's always me vs GA & Jaffa18:00
RST38hIt is becoming more annoying than NIT vs iPhone one18:00
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Stskeepsjohnx_: i have screenshots if you didnt see on jaiku yet18:00
johnx_there really shouldn't need to be this much discussion to figure out WTF it means18:00
GeneralAntillesHey, if people would stop abusing it so horribly, we wouldn't have to discuss it.18:00
Stskeepsjohnx for council!18:00
johnx_Stskeeps, nope, didn't see yet. just sat down18:00
dnearyAnyway - I don't like having this discussion18:00
johnx_nah, too drunk to run for council right now18:01
Stskeepsjohnx_: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-menubutton.png , http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-appmenu.png18:01
lcukso really candidature is for the maemo.org community council18:01
dnearybusy with accounts18:01
johnx_too drunk to run anywhere...18:01
RST38hGeneral: People do not really care abut such details. As long as it is clear what entity they mean, it isn;t worth a flame18:01
dnearylcuk: No - it's the Council for the Maemo Community18:01
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RST38hIf it is unclear - ask them to clarify which will give them a much better lesson than flaming them18:01
johnx_Stskeeps, looking nice18:01
dnearyor, perhaps, the Community Council for Maemo18:01
dnearyIn any case, it's clearly Maemo Community Council18:01
johnx_if you didn't see I finally have a working x server package for the zaurus running ubuntu18:01
Stskeepsjohnx_: yeah, but really neeed to get wazd to do some artwork :P18:01
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Stskeepsjohnx_: woo :)18:01
Stskeepsjohnx_: and this theme should be better on 640x480 too18:01
johnx_man, that was waaaay too much work O_o;18:02
lcukso the Maemo council governs maemo or it governs maemo.org or it governs none or both18:02
RST38hShit, looks like wazd is already off for the long weekend18:02
Stskeepsdamnit18:02
dnearylcuk: You're shit-stirring there, aren't you? :)18:02
* lcuk is more confuddled than ever18:02
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, the Community Council governs the Maemo Community and maemo.org.18:02
* RST38h feeds lcuk a huge orange18:02
dnearylcuk: The Maemo Community Council represents the Maemo Community18:02
johnx_lcuk, it governs none or both :)18:02
GeneralAntillesIt DOES NOT govern Maemo.18:02
lcukno dneary, i hear different people talk about different facets of maemo every day and it does my nut in, clarity of what a person is standing for is important18:02
dnearylcuk: I agree with you, right now the boundaries & branding are unclear18:03
GeneralAntilles_Maemo_ is governed by Nokia.18:03
Jaffalcuk: As dneary says - the Council governs nothing, but has made decisions (like debmaster) which Nokia - as sponsor - have abided by.18:03
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Stskeepswhen mer matures sufficiently i hope council would govern mer :P18:03
dnearyAnd made unclearer by certain individuals (ahem GA ahem) insisting with absolute certainty certain positions18:03
Stskeepsin one way or the other18:03
dnearywhich are anything but obvious18:03
GeneralAntillesMost of the confusion crops up from people being unable to separate the old branding from the new branding.18:03
dnearyGeneralAntilles: Not really18:04
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dnearyMuch of the confusion crops up from people being entrenched in conflicting positions18:04
dnearyFor example, I think that Nokia is a prominent party in Maemo, not our governor and overlord18:05
dnearyAnd I think Quim would agree with me there18:05
dnearyBut you clearly disagree18:05
dnearyWich causes confusion :)18:05
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dnearyOf course, someone needs to own the trademark, and Nokia does18:05
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dnearyAnd I'm fine with that18:05
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dnearyMaemo is, for me, the community project, lock stock & barrel, including both Nokia and the community18:06
dnearyAnyway - I really have to go.18:06
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dnearyAs much as this is fun :)18:06
GeneralAntillesSee, it's not a "community" project.18:07
GeneralAntillesIt's a Nokia software platform.18:07
Jaffadneary: I suspect such a position *could* be partially motivated by political positioning on how Maemo has been developed (wanting to appear open, on top of GNOME, Gtk+, GStreamer, Mozilla, Linux) etc. "Maemo" as anything vaguely definable in a software way is entirely owned and governed and run by Nokia.18:07
GeneralAntillesIf it were a community project, we'd be able to use the Maemo trademark for community applications and services.18:08
* Jaffa would *love* to see Maemo developed as an open system; and bits of it are. But, realistically, Maemo - as a software product - is Nokia owned, and Nokia run. The Maemo community, etc. are of course adifferent matter.18:08
GeneralAntillesBut take, for example, maemoapps.org18:08
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Well, even community projects get into trademark things, like Mozilla.18:08
lbtwhat do people use for screenshots?18:10
lbthttp://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/screen-grabber/ is chinook18:11
GeneralAntillesx11vnc18:11
vasily_pupkinwhat do people use for wpa_supplicant?18:11
Jaffalbt: mh-shot-tool18:11
dnearyJaffa: And GNOME18:12
dnearyJaffa: Lots of community projects spend a lot of energy figuring out what is acceptable & unacceptable usage of their marks18:12
lbtJaffa: that helps18:13
dnearyAnd Peter, from the little I talked to him, was acting in good faith, to ensure that the Maemo mark was as unconfusing as possible18:13
dnearySo if there's stuff you feel you should be able to do that you feel you can't ask why18:13
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dnearyMaybe there's a good reason the guidelines are the way they are18:13
dnearyIt would be better than setting the whole debate up framed in "us vs them"18:14
* Jaffa has no qualm with the trademark guidelines or the branding.18:14
JaffaI think they're perfectly clear and straightforward :)18:14
dneary(which is what it comes across as every time this comes up)18:14
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GeneralAntillesdneary, it's not us vs them.18:14
* Jaffa recognises Nokia's right to own the Maemo trademark. I don't care about that (apart from helping other people understand it as well)18:15
dnearyIt always ends up sounding to me like "Maemo is controlled by Nokia, and the Maemo Community is us poor hackers."18:15
lbtapt-get install screenshot-tool18:15
Jaffalbt: It's inz's tool: http://inz.fi/blog/2007/10/25/mh-shot-tool-update/18:15
dnearyHonestly, I believe that Nokia wans co-control of Maemo between Nokia and the non-Nokia part of the community18:16
dnearyThey're just not sure how to do that, who to talk to, etc.18:16
dnearyThat's what the Council helps with18:16
Jaffadneary: That's fine, but we're not there yet. So, it's still sensible to talk about Maemo being owned, controlled and run by Nokia <shrug/>18:16
* GeneralAntilles wonders what percentage of flame-threads on -users Mark has participated in (and precipitated).18:17
lcukinvite him to participate in the council18:18
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lcukhe likes to use his voice18:18
lcukhe might be involved in many discussions but what you cant be sure of is how many times hes on the right side of them according to the other maemo users18:19
GeneralAntilleslcuk, scarily enough he has more than enough karma.18:19
lcukwhy is that scary?18:19
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, because he's a troll.18:19
lcukone persons troll is anothers advisor18:20
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, look at the tone of his posts and get back to me. ;)18:20
dnearyJaffa: I disagree18:20
GeneralAntillesHooray, -community.18:20
dnearyI think language like that is damaging18:20
* GeneralAntilles is up over 2000.18:20
johnx_Nokia is the one picking the direction of the Maemo platform, not that I actually find that a terribly bad thing at this point18:21
JaffaDamn. Long way to go to catch you (and move up one place)18:21
* dneary over 100018:21
lbthow do I update https://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/shopper/18:22
dneary774 discussion points18:22
dnearyMailing list points should be less valuable18:22
GeneralAntillesHum, brought me within shooting distance of fanoush, too.18:22
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, think up another startup screen!18:22
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, hell, let's just push benson's! :D18:22
dnearylbt: If you're logged in and have permission to do so, you should be able to modify some stuff in the product page directly (Page->Modify)18:22
dnearyIf you want to push a new release, garage18:23
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, lol! I'll leave you to claim the karma from that :P18:23
lbtdneary: ah that weird floating icon bar....18:23
lbtI'd tuned it out totally :)18:23
GeneralAntillesqwerty12, that's where Nokia users their supr sicrit backdoor to quietly delete my account. ;)18:24
lbtthanks18:24
Jaffajohnx_: agreed, I've no problem with Nokia leading Maemo and, as dneary says, it /seems/ Nokia want to try and co-own it with the community. I think that'll actually be harder for the Maemo platform than for a particular component of it (say Hildon App Mgr)18:24
dnearyGeneralAntilles: You don't think it's weird that I have 49 karma from mediawiki and 774 from email to lists?18:24
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qwerty12GeneralAntilles, hehe18:24
GeneralAntillesdneary, the karma calculations all need to be rethought as a whole.18:25
thopiekarlbt: what do you mean with updating shopper? isn't it available on diablo?18:25
GeneralAntillesCurrently we're mixing numbers from 2 years ago with numbers from 6 months ago.18:25
dnearyGeneralAntilles: Degradable karma's hard to do18:25
JaffaGeneralAntilles: I'd still like a half-life system, but that'd require a massive rewrite it seems.18:25
johnx_Jaffa, yeah, there are some somewhat conflicting short-term goals, which is why I'm more or less happy that Nokia is taking the long view even though it sometimes doesn't earn them friends...18:25
lbtthopiekar: I'm adding a screenshot18:25
dnearyJaffa: Not a massive rewrite18:25
Jaffadneary: It's not hard to do intrinsically; it's just hard to do with our current implementation.18:25
thopiekaraah18:26
lbt0.5.5 is in extras now :)18:26
dnearyIt's just that much of the stuff we measure doesn't really have datestamps18:26
GeneralAntillesSome things are scaling linearly (discussion points, bugzilla) while others aren't (itT, wiki)18:26
Jaffadneary: see, that's my point - you're thinking around it with the wrong architecture.18:26
dnearyWe're already bridging 4 or 5 different application databases (midgard, bugzilla, itt, mediawiki, mailman, ...)18:26
dnearyJaffa: Degrading karma implies timestamped stuff18:27
Jaffadneary: Don't try and work out what timestamp things are, just work out the difference between today's karma and the karma already in the database. Multiply existing value by degradation factor, then add on new one.18:27
Jaffas/new one/new bit18:27
dnearyJaffa: Let's do that mentally for a couple of days...18:28
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dnearyJaffa: Today: 1020. Yesterday: 100018:28
dneary1000*0.99 = 990 + 20 -> new karma 101018:28
JaffaOK, there's also an assumption you don't double count things.18:29
dnearyNow, next day, we measure all the karma stuff, and get 103018:29
dnearyDo we have 10 new karma or 20?18:29
JaffaImplement hashing of resources so things don't get double counted, and no delta necessary then.18:29
dnearyI can see how it would be possible, with a baseline18:30
dnearyHere goes (thinking out loud):18:30
dnearyStore date + delta karma18:30
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dnearyBaseline: 1000 today18:31
JaffaStore two values in db: calculated karma unmodified for time, actual karma. Calculate delta on "previously calculated karma", degrade "actual karma", add delta. Update "previously calculated karma"18:31
dnearyMeasure karma tomorrow (with no degratation)18:31
dnearydelta = 1518:31
GeneralAntillesI think we should just nominate somebody to arbitrarily dock a different people a couple dozen karma or so every few days. :P18:31
dnearydate = 2009-03-0718:31
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dnearyOver time, we have a baseline + extra karma per day for N days18:32
Jaffadneary: that should work too18:32
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JaffaHaving a karma chart for a user would be useful. I've wanted to chart mine, but haven't been arsed.18:32
Jaffa(also to check that karma's being applied correctly when I release something new or whatever)18:32
dnearyTo calculate displayed karma, or adjusted karma, or whatever you want to call it, you value karma from N days ago at K*0.999^N18:33
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dnearyBut that needs some hacking in the database & a bunch of places in midgard18:33
Jaffadneary: hell, don't even store the deltas - just store the absolute values and, as you say, calculate displayed/adjusted karma either in batch or on-demand.18:33
dnearyor 0.99^N or whatever18:33
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dnearyIf you're storing karma with date, why not "just" store the deltas?18:34
Stskeepsjohnx_: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-closer.png18:35
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johnx_ah, quite nice! did the arm build go through or are you holding off?18:35
Stskeepsyeah, holding off until i have it right18:35
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johnx_ok, I'll clean up this new xfbdev pacakge (this time using one only a year out of date rather than 2 years)18:36
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Jaffadneary: true, implementation detail. Whichever's easiest to implement the desired behaviour.18:37
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JaffaI guess storing "calculated" and "adjusted" in a single row per user would be easier to implement, though18:37
Jaffai.e. today: c=1000, a=100018:37
lcuktechnically isnt it "easier" for a database to store just the individual karma pieces and run a query to arrange that data18:39
Jaffatomorrow: c=1020, a=(1000*0.99)+(1020-1000) = 101018:39
lcukie: for slashdot i can go back to the database from ~2000 and see individual comment moderation figures which effect my karma today18:39
Jaffanext day: c=1040, a=(1010*0.99)+(1040-1020) = 102018:40
Jaffalcuk: indeed, but that's an even bigger change since - as dneary says - the artifacts are more disparate18:40
thopiekardoes anyone know who to deactivate swap on a linux-vm?18:40
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Jaffai.e. the table would be something like: | id | user | hash | date | url | type |18:40
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lcukonly because their meaning is changing.  it just needs categorizing (with your type)  what are you hashing?18:41
Jaffalcuk: hash the content (unneedded if the URLs are canonical) so you don't double count.18:42
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lcukahhh jaffa.  specifically for itt do the "thanks" things not have this info anyway?   and the same for the thumbs from maemo.org.  which need specific urls?18:44
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Jaffalcuk: mailing list messages or something? The URL doesn't have to be something a web browser could visit - just something to identify what you're awarding the karma for. Could be, for example, ittthanks://32032/54418:47
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woglindehi18:48
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thopiekarhi18:52
GeneralAntillesYeah, Jaffa, you dumbass!18:52
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GeneralAntillesI wonder if the Navis are next.18:53
woglindehaha18:54
woglindewatch your language or so18:54
* GeneralAntilles is pretty sure Jaffa is both Bush and a Nazi.18:54
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woglindehm18:55
GeneralAntilleswoglinde, sorry, more -users insanity.18:56
woglindehaha no prob18:56
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: I'm getting flashbacks to the voting system emails ;-)18:56
JaffaI'm *obviously* blind and stupid.18:56
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, but only deliberately so. Which makes it a thousand times worse. :P18:57
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, you clearly agree 100% with his point of view, and are only disagreeing because you're a terrible person.18:58
* Jaffa sees a list - which has, in a quick scan, nothing to do with what my point was.18:58
* Jaffa gets back to writing evaluations18:58
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: is the most recent email from the same Mark as the one who called me a dimwitted Republican president, blind to the obvious truthiness of his statements?19:00
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JaffaThey read like they're from different people19:00
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GeneralAntillesGood god he types fast.19:00
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JaffaI might need a beer.19:01
johnx_mmmm....truthiness19:01
johnx_may I recommend the kaluha and milk :)19:01
johnx_goes down much smoother in large quanitities19:01
GeneralAntillesjohnx_, you tested that tonight, eh? :P19:02
GeneralAntillesJaffa, I should probably just unsubscribe from -users.19:02
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* Jaffa rarely reads the threads there, TBH19:02
lcukthanks jaffa, clears it up19:02
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GeneralAntillesConstructive things there are usually just met with bile and flames.19:03
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GeneralAntillesI'm rather amazed at how much worse than itT it is. Mailing lists are strange entities.19:03
johnx_GeneralAntilles, 'all you can drink' was a reasonable price...19:03
GeneralAntillesHehe19:03
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* lcuk is constantly amazed at how often misc code he writes finds its purpose sometimes years after being coded19:07
woglindelcuk *g*19:07
lcuklatest example, a small but complex equation to do something that i wrote just because in december 2006 and have not used just became urgent today :)19:09
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derfI often find myself going back for code I wrote the better part of a decade ago.19:10
* Stskeeps tries to understand why application switcher seems only to go the better way of vertical..19:11
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JaffaStskeeps: the Maemo one? Probably never intended to do anything else.19:13
JaffaStskeeps: tried the one from Ubuntu MID? (or even the one in the netbook remix)19:13
lcukheh derf, same here. my current library goes back to 2000 (just because of hte language)19:13
slonopotamusStskeeps, hi. that patch you gave me against cx3110x... is maemo nm supposed to connect with it?19:14
derfI've got plenty of code that goes back farther, but I tend not to use it that much.19:14
lcuki have no library from before then :'(19:15
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Stskeepsslonopotamus: does for me19:21
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StskeepsJaffa: mm, im not sure there's an actual patch for it19:21
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slonopotamusStskeeps, argh... i'm doing something wrong. 1) rmmod 2) insmod 3) wlan-cal from initfs 4) connect. have i missed something?19:22
Stskeepsslonopotamus: hmm19:23
Stskeepsslonopotamus: ifconfig wlan0 up19:23
slonopotamusStskeeps, yep. something else? any magic dances to load firmware or whatever?19:24
Stskeepsdmesg19:24
GeneralAntillesIs anybody else getting tons of duplicate emails on -users?19:25
slonopotamusStskeeps, hmm... good point. will try.19:25
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: only more email than I want ;-)19:25
qwerty12GeneralAntilles, shh, it's part of the plan to get people's karma doubled ;)19:26
Stskeepsslonopotamus: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-closer.png19:26
GeneralAntillesI like Mark's "distinction" between "Internet" and "web".19:27
Myrttiits teh Interhwebs?19:27
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, can you just run a quick rm -rf --fire on the -users instance of mailman? :P19:28
* Myrtti is happy to subscribe only the -community list19:28
slonopotamusStskeeps, err... what's that? :)19:29
johnx_slonopotamus, that's Mer getting closer to wazd's mockups :)19:29
slonopotamusjohnx_, oh :)19:30
JaffaVery exciting :)19:30
JaffaAt the moment, wazd's mer mockups are much more tangible than Fremantle's nebulous overall UI :)19:30
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slonopotamushehe19:31
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Stskeepsgod bless magic constants19:36
JaffaNo `const MAX_NUMBER_OF_HORIZONTAL_ICONS = 1'?19:36
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slonopotamusthere isn't much magic in magic constants usually19:37
Stskeepsmore like a , 1 that actually means , 0 ..19:37
Stskeeps(i hope i'm right)19:38
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slonopotamussomething like #define 1 0 // happy debugging, assholes' ? :)19:39
GeneralAntillesHaha19:40
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Stskeepsmore like changing magic constants one place and forgetting to implement it in the other19:45
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Stskeepsi mean, why bother, it works..19:45
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udovdhanybody knows where I can find info about the gps that is in the n810?20:01
udovdhI mean config-info for the nmea stuff?20:01
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neatojonesDoes anyone know how to start a window manager in Mer on scratchbox?20:12
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Stskeepsneatojones: i'd personally just use a vmdk.20:19
Jaffaneatojones: start-hildon? (some of the instructions for the chroot could be copied across to the SDK instructions if you were going to test them)20:19
neatojonesYeah.  I tried the directions for SDK.  DIdn't work20:20
neatojoneswanted to see if e17 would start on my scratchbox20:20
Jaffaneatojones: oh, so this is a *specific* WM you want to start?20:20
Stskeepsneatojones: i wouldn't bet on it :P it's not an emulator, it's a cross-compiling accelerator20:20
Stskeepsneatojones: i'd just grab a mer tar.gz and chroot into it20:20
neatojonesI did a VMDK too, but removed it because I was more or less just making packages20:20
neatojoneshmm20:20
neatojonesmight just dot that.20:21
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neatojonesJaffa:  yes20:22
neatojonesI know the command to start the wm20:22
neatojonesjust not in scratchbox20:22
neatojonesthe af-sb-init.sh start command was a no-go20:23
neatojonesthey all gave permissions errors even with fakeroot20:23
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neatojonesie: mmap: Permission denied20:25
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RST38hmoo all again20:28
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mikkov_neatojones: see http://inz.fi/blog/2008/01/17/scratchbox-on-hardy/20:38
neatojonesthank mikkov_20:39
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darkblue_Bhi there happy tableteers...20:39
darkblue_BQ. about repos and pkgs and such...20:39
darkblue_BI prefer a simple editor on the command line, like nano... I got nano for an N800 a few weeks ago, but in my notes wrote only gronmayer.com/it20:40
darkblue_Bbut now I look and see it is a meta-repo listing20:40
darkblue_Bcan I either a) do a better search for nano, somewhere in one of those repos (yes I did "find on page" in the browser and did not get it)20:41
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darkblue_Bor b) use the OS to find it and move it to another new tablet.. I notice dpkg does not know about everything I have installed.. I suppose if directly from .deb or something20:42
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darkblue_Baha, dpkg -l does show nano though...20:46
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mikkov_nano is in tools repository: deb http://repository.maemo.org diablo/tools free non-free20:47
mikkov_http://maemo.org/development/tools/20:47
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darkblue_Bmikkov_: looking20:49
darkblue_Bmikkov_: how did you find that?20:49
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mikkov_darkblue_B: I just know stuff :)20:50
darkblue_B:-(20:51
MyrttiMAAAGGIC20:52
darkblue_Byou guys were the ones that kicked under classmen in Jr High School too, huh?20:53
* lcuk wonders if Myrtti has taken her medication today :P20:53
darkblue_Bs/kicked/sat on/20:53
infobotdarkblue_B meant: you guys were the ones that sat on under classmen in Jr High School too, huh?20:53
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Myrttilcuk: I'm just cheery, I had a wicked cool idea and I'm cooking20:53
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* Myrtti doesn't get what darkblue_B means, but doesn't strain her brain with it, and goes back to cook20:54
* lcuk goes round to Myrtti's for tea20:54
lcukwhat ya cooking?20:54
darkblue_BMyrtti: if someone answers a search quesiton once, I never have to ask again, because I can then do it myself20:54
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lcukor is this yourtop secret code idea20:55
darkblue_BMyrtti: if you reply MAAGGIC then I dont know how to do it myself20:55
darkblue_Bthats what I meant20:55
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Myrttidarkblue_B: oh, ok.20:55
* lcuk wanted to take nokia with him today20:56
lcukbut the damned battery was flat20:56
Myrttilcuk: I guess it could be called chili con carne, though I'm doing it with fresh bell peppers, leek, peperoni peppers, mince, kidney beans, crushed tomatoes, served with steamed barley/jasmine rice20:56
lcukmmmm sounds good, bet your house smells devine20:58
lcukare there any cooking.recipe programs for nit20:58
lcukones with a timer and binger things20:59
qwerty12_N800yerga's pyrecipe iirc20:59
lcukcos tracy does all hers currently using her nokia phone and loads of manual timers20:59
lcukcool20:59
darkblue_Bso apparently I use the string -> deb http://repository.maemo.org diablo/tools free non-free20:59
qwerty12_N800lcuk: not sure on the name but I know yerga has ported one and made one himself20:59
darkblue_Bfile /etc/apt/sources.list is empty21:00
mikkov_darkblue_B: there are installation instuctions at http://maemo.org/development/tools/21:00
darkblue_Bmikkov_: looking21:01
darkblue_Bnice.. thx21:01
mikkov_just forget the fakeroot thing on tablet21:01
* RST38h salivates21:02
RST38hMyrtti: You should have given all these details...21:02
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MyrttiRST38h: hmmm? O:-)21:03
lcukMyrtti, have you got yourself an 8x0 now or are you still on 77021:03
Myrttilcuk: 10d, 4h, 46m, 20s till I'm in UK and could get my hands on my n80021:03
lcuki take it thats a no21:04
lcukfor now :P21:04
MyrttiI can install stuff to it by proxy though :-P21:04
qwerty12_N800Myrtti: you should get x11vnc on it :)21:04
lcukheh21:04
lcuk"application installed, press OK to continue"21:05
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lcukhi there fiferboy how goes it21:05
darkblue_Bmikkov_: fake root?21:05
Myrttimy technique is a bit more finetuned21:05
Myrtti"durlin, could you please install this software to my n800 and tell me if it's any good, kthx"21:06
lcukVNC over carrier pigeon?21:06
Myrtti*blinkblink*21:06
qwerty12_N800lol21:06
fiferboylcuk: Pretty good.  Trying to find time to go back over my maemo4 apps, and try out maemo5 SDK21:06
ShadowJK400 not 410? :-)21:06
qwerty12_N800hey Andrew :)21:06
darkblue_Bmikkov_: oh, some scratch box reference21:07
lcukheh fiferboy we are all trying to find time to do everything21:07
darkblue_Byeah I am skipping that.. at some point I could put a MER in a VM.. but now now21:07
fiferboyheem21:07
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* lcuk doesnt see how or why people use virtual tablets, the touchscreen feel and responsiveness of the app is vital21:08
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fiferboyHey Faheem21:08
darkblue_Bdevelopment.. if you are referring to MER or scratchbox21:08
* lcuk develops directly on diablo21:09
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darkblue_Blcuk: you type with the stylus too ?21:10
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fiferboylbt: Does shopper build against qt 4.5 in diablo?21:11
lcukdarkblue_B, no, i type on my big keyboard usually, but when i am out and about i use the little one or my apple bt keyboard21:11
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darkblue_Bwell I enabled Red Pill Mode on a new N800, added diablo/tools, checked "Show All Packages" in Applicatin Manager prefs, and I still dont see the nano package :-/21:13
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mikkov_try "apt-get install nano"21:14
darkblue_Bok21:14
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darkblue_Bmikkov_: ok, working, thx21:14
lbtfiferboy: hope so...21:15
lbtnot tried yet - the deb is against 4.421:15
fiferboyI want to try out finger scrolling, but I have 4.5 installed on my tablet21:15
fiferboyTrying to build in scratchbox I get an error21:15
lbtget the source...  dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b21:15
lbtwhat error?21:16
fiferboysrc/CatListModel.cc: In member function `virtual QVariant Shopper::CatListModel::headerData(int, Qt::Orientation, int) const':21:16
fiferboy/opt/qt45/include/qt4/QtCore/qvariant.h:408: error: `QVariant::QVariant(void*)' is private21:16
fiferboysrc/CatListModel.cc:88: error: within this context21:16
lbtOK - that's possibly a tightening up and a bug21:16
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darkblue_Bnow to find that "Show IP" app.. priceless21:17
fiferboyDo you think it is caused by a change between 4.4 and 4.5?21:19
lbtfiferboy: I'm off out now - email me and try me tomorrow... david@dgreaves.com21:19
lbtbut yes I do21:19
fiferboyWill do.  Thanks21:19
lbtit compiles fine for me and http://doc.trolltech.com/4.5/qvariant.html21:19
lbtlooks OK21:19
darkblue_B"home ip"21:19
fiferboyI'll work on it.  It might be my build set up21:19
lbtI may need to do QVariant(QString("Ptr"))21:19
lbtbut shouldn't21:19
lbtanyhow l8r21:19
RST38hqt. evil.21:20
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fiferboyRST38h: How so?21:21
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RST38hfiferboy: just is.21:22
fiferboyFor developing or using?21:23
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fiferboyI like it for both21:23
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RST38hit is probably lesser of two evils when compared to gtk21:24
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RST38hI kinda prefer gtk UIs more though, dunno why, they just look lighter21:24
derfMy main objection is to the C++.21:25
derfThe use of their own special pre-processor doesn't help.21:25
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* guysoft42 just installed debian chroot and is blown away by it - its so cool!21:27
RST38hderf: evil!21:27
fiferboyderf: You mean that it isn't "true" c++?21:27
fiferboyOr the use of c++ at all?21:28
keesjqt makes c++ bareable21:28
RST38hfiferboy: having a preprocessor makes things a bit more difficult21:28
derffiferboy: Yes.21:28
guysoft42i dono. i know c++ is nice because its fast but i am a lazy programer and i like python and eclipse really.. i only use c when there is no escape21:29
derfC++ is not fast.21:29
guysoft42well its faster than python21:29
derfOkay, but totally not a comparable language.21:29
guysoft42derf, we have in our foss community here someone that built a CMS on c++21:30
Myrttilcuk, RST38h: todays lunch, and dinner at http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/archives/date-posted/2009/03/06/21:30
guysoft42he wanted to show its the way to go and that languages like PHP and perl etc only make it less efficient21:30
guysoft42i think he made his proof , his CMS is pretty fast, and he even got it to be compatible with embedded systems21:31
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* Sho_ finds the preprocessor animosity overblown21:32
darkblue_Bc++ is not fast??!21:32
darkblue_Bwhoops21:32
darkblue_Balmost every commercial application is written in c++, fyi21:32
guysoft42derf, well all languages could be compared, although not all are used for the same purpose. from the programmer side all languages have a common goal - to be easy to use (well except fukbrain)21:33
Myrttiwould you perhaps mean Midgard?21:33
Myrttiguysoft42: and brainfuck?21:33
Myrttithough, I'm not sure myself what tinopeners, perpetuum mobiles and hacksaws are used to make midgard...21:34
RST38hderf: C++ is as fast as C if you know what you are doing21:34
guysoft42Myrtti, yes that one..21:34
derfRST38h: That is a huge IF.21:34
Myrttiguysoft42: that would be the one that maemo.org runs on :-)21:34
darkblue_Bderf -> under-informed21:34
RST38hderf: I am ok with it21:34
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derfI've worked with quite a number of C++ programmers.21:34
derfNone of them knew what they were doing.21:34
RST38hdarkblue: May I ask you a question?21:34
darkblue_Bsure..21:35
guysoft42IF exists in both (double mening!)21:35
RST38hderf: Well, hire some good ones21:35
darkblue_B(dons flame retardent)21:35
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RST38hdarkblue: How C++ being used in many commercial applications makes it fast?21:35
derfRST38h: If they were good, they wouldn't use C++.21:35
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Pavlovlol21:35
darkblue_B*sigh*21:35
RST38hderf: And what would they use?21:35
PavlovRST38h: he's a troll21:35
guysoft42i think you are overrating commercial21:36
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RST38hPavlov: And I am an internet predator21:36
* Myrtti gives everyone a lollipop21:36
derfIf you actually care about speed, you cannot hide all of your abstractions, so you're much better off with C.21:36
darkblue_Bok, so the story goes.. Barny Stroustroup is at a party.. mr CS PhD from Berkeley sees him and heads straight over21:36
guysoft42i think mainly they have to work with what they already have.. it takes loger to shift21:36
Pavlovderf: lol21:36
RST38hderf: So they would use C?21:36
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derfIf you actually care about a high level language and development time, you should use an actual high level language that supports things like garbage collection.21:36
Pavlovderf sounds a lot like someone who doesn't actually know how to use C++21:36
darkblue_BStroustroup sees him coming from 10 feet away and says premptively, "I know, C++ is screwed up"21:36
darkblue_B.. urban legend / true story21:37
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darkblue_Bso, in short, I am not going to be the one sitting here defending c++ !!21:37
RST38hderf: All right, would you care to explain what part of C++ makes it slow?21:37
Pavlovno part of C++ makes it slow21:37
darkblue_Bbut, its under-informed to say c++ is "slow", especially in the same breath as python21:37
guysoft42honestly i just have c++ as a university course now.. but in dont go to it.. i know C already. and python, so i can i figure things out21:37
Pavlovyou can write stupid code in any language21:37
guysoft42darkblue_B, yep..21:38
darkblue_BPavlov: yep21:38
Sho_Regarding Qt's preprocessor, it's used to implement useful things that make the toolkit's API significantly more convenient. And at the time it was conceived, there was no other viable way of doing it. That said, Qt has never used the preprocessor in an attempt to do lock-in - it generally interoperates well with the STL, and you're e.g. free to use boost's template-based signals-and-slots instead of Qt's preprocessor-based ones (the template route wasn't viable back21:38
guysoft42Pavlov, yep egain21:38
RST38hMyrtti: this is cruel of you to show this stuff to someone who only had two slices of bread with cheese21:38
Sho_then, due to poor compiler support).21:38
guysoft42again*21:38
derfThe point is that C++ _encourages_ writing stupid code much more than, say, C does.21:38
Pavlovno it doesn't21:38
MyrttiRST38h: if you're nearby Tampere, Finland, I've got plenty to share ;-)21:38
* darkblue_B tunes out derf21:38
RST38hderf: Sorry but could you tell exactly what part of C++ makes it slow?21:38
Pavlovwhen a C app gets over a few thousand lines of code they start reimplementing vtables21:38
slonopotamusin moments like this i truly feel that irc doesn't scale21:39
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guysoft42i liked python's attitude that you carn't not-indent.. at least if you write stupid code you stupidity is visible21:39
* darkblue_B wrote commercial sfwr for 16 years21:39
RST38hderf: (btw, I *know* what parts of C++ may make your program slow, so just checking if you kow what you are talking about)21:39
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derfI'm not terribly interested in playing quiz games just to prove how smart I am.21:39
RST38hMyrtti: Too far21:39
Pavlovderf: its ok, you already failed21:40
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RST38hderf: [scratching head] Just verifying that you know what you are talking about21:40
* guysoft42 just noticed that his double-negative means we need also a new english language release candidate21:40
RST38hlts drp ll vwls t sv sm spc21:40
Pavlovr/win 2321:41
guysoft42RST38h, error on line 1: e expected in word21:41
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slonopotamus:D21:41
RST38hFF3 update has arrived21:41
guysoft42RST38h, is it such a drama? so its 3.0.0.0.0.0.4 and not 3.0.0.0.0.0.0321:42
RST38hguysoft: No idea, but the last update did manage to break something21:43
* RST38h really needs wazd now: TI83+ is finally working but there is no skin for it21:43
guysoft42RST38h, i have on my debian system here 779 new updates.. i need to free disk space to see another update..21:43
derfRST38h: If I thought there was a chance for an actual productive conversation among this crowd, I might care, but I can see that there is not.21:44
slonopotamusRST38h, i wonder when they run out of security holes. looks like never.21:44
RST38hguysoft: Ah that is easy, delete Evolution and OpenOffice :)21:44
guysoft42RST38h, is the source out there yet? i would like that thing on my PCs..21:44
MyrttiRST38h: the pink hellokitty calculator?21:44
RST38hderf: Well, I tried to make a productive conversation by asking which features of C++ you consider detrimental to performance21:45
Myrtti:->21:45
Sho_RST38h: "qt is evil" wasn't a much more differenciated statement than derf's C++ comments, tho'21:45
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guysoft42RST38h, na - the mail folder in Evolution takes more space than all the debs.. well , maybe just the lib* packages21:45
RST38hMyrtti: Sadly, it is laid out for the Silver Edition21:45
Myrtti*snifff*21:45
RST38hMyrtti: But yes, I have got that skin and it is DEFINITELY coming to Extras once I have TI83+SE working =)21:45
RST38hguysoft: Kill and move to GMail21:45
guysoft42well i could always do updates now on debian chroot .. yay..21:45
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guysoft42RST38h, i use imap.. i have it on 2 computers + nokia now21:46
RST38hSho_: When I make such statements, I am usually joking or trolling =)21:46
Sho_RST38h: Maybe derf is a big jokster, too ;-)21:46
derfRST38h: You mean besides virtual functions, virtual base classes, constructors, exceptions, templates...21:46
guysoft42RST38h, was funny that week when g-mail fell. people kept complaining, and i didn't know why..21:46
RST38hSho: But don't be careless, if I really want to, I will shit all over qt, c++, or any other topic =)21:46
Sho_RST38h: Do some qt shitting then, that would interest me ;)21:47
slonopotamuswoooo! qemu 0.10.0 released!21:47
RST38hSho: Well, custom preprocessor and binary API changing with each new version, if you wish21:48
RST38hderf: All right21:48
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Sho_RST38h: Qt maintains ABI stability in major release series, actually21:49
RST38hderf: To start with, templates do not really affect performance, they are compile time feature. They are messy all right, but performance is not involved21:49
* guysoft42 is running kstars on my nokia N810 over debian chroot21:49
derfRST38h: Tell that to the 8MB binaries and 100MB libraries that have to be loaded because someone decided to use templates and instantiated 1,000 different ones.21:50
RST38hderf: Now, virtual functions and virtual base classes: these are simply arrays of handler pointers, widely used in C as well (see gtk for example)21:50
guysoft42say - is there a way to access the debian chroot start menu? that would really be cool, would mean its just like using the normal repository..21:50
Sho_RST38h: As for the preprocessor, see the '<Sho_> Regarding Qt's preprocessor [...]' line21:50
RST38hderf: You have to be aware that they cause a pointer dereference and use them with caution21:50
derfRST38h: Sure, but C++ hides that fact, and most programmers do not treat it with caution.21:50
derfMy argument was that it _encourages_ bad behavior.21:50
RST38hderf: C++ does not hade that fact21:50
derfNot that you can't write good code.21:50
RST38hderf: It clearly requires you to write VIRTUAL in front of such pointers21:51
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RST38hderf: Now, constructors: if you do not want to initialize stuff (just like in C) you do not need to povide a constructor21:51
guysoft42anyone here playing with easy debian chroot?21:51
RST38hderf: But a lot of C programs have Init() functions21:51
RST38hderf: C++ constructor lets you write such a function in intelligent manner21:52
RST38hderf: when you do memset(&Var,0,sizeof(Var)) in C, you pretty much run a constructor21:52
derfRST38h: No, it requires some guy who defined your base class to write virtual in front of them.21:52
* guysoft42 throws an exception at that constructor21:53
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RST38hderf: Now, the only remaining feature you listed is exceptions and these DO waste performance21:53
RST38hderf: no it does not21:53
derfAnd C++ constructors run repeatedly and _uselessly_.21:53
RST38hderf: Who told you that?21:53
RST38hderf: If I write a constructor, it means I WANT it to run.21:53
derfAnd require an extremely intelligent compiler to actually figure out how to optimize out all of the useless crap and temporary objects in return-by-value calls, etc.21:54
RST38hmmm?21:54
* darkblue_B dips in the memory pool21:54
guysoft42hell kstars takes 55MB of ram..21:54
RST38hA lot of people and companies simply do not use exceptions, as a policy21:54
RST38hNot even for performance reasons but because exceptions mess up execution flow too badly21:54
derfWhich is fine, as long as you don't want to use any third-party libraries.21:55
RST38hderf: None of the base C++ libs use exceptions21:55
RST38htemplates yes, exceptions no21:55
RST38has to third party stuff, C++ is not responsible for it as a language21:55
derfWhich is the real danger of C++... you can confine _yourself_ to a useful subset. You cannot confine others.21:55
RST38hI can ignore those others who do wrong stuff from my POV21:56
derfWell, that's fine if you want to write all the code yourself.21:56
RST38hNot necessarily21:56
derfThat's an extremely limited way to build software, however.21:56
Sho_RST38h: So for example, Qt maintained binary compatibility from Qt 3 in early 2001 until Qt 4 in summer 2005, and then again for Qt 4 until now (and Qt 5 is many years off)21:56
RST38hI do not ignore EVERYBODY, just choosing tools and libraries that are sane and safe to use21:56
RST38hSho: Which is exactly why our product has to link both qt4 and qt321:57
guysoft42i had to give in an assignment a few weeks ago for c++ in university, we were told to build a constructor and validate the input given to it.. so natrualy i found i had to use an exception for that - since you carn't return anything from a constructor.. aprently its not included in the course.. so you can imagine all the people leaning it would not know that untill later. might be too late by then21:57
derfRST38h: There were very few of these when I gave up on C++ completely (around 2000). Now every other kid wants to use all this boost crap, which I do not consider an improvement.21:58
RST38hguysoft: Of course, there is another way to doit21:58
Sho_RST38h: Or you could port it (and use qt3support). In any case, I'm not aware of any open source toolkit that has done significantly better on binary compatibility.21:58
RST38hguysoft: If you have got wrong input, you set your object into "invalid" state and make all methods fail.21:58
RST38hSho: libc :)21:58
Sho_RST38h: libc is a great GUI toolkit for sure ;)21:58
RST38hSho: You did not say "GUI" :)21:59
Sho_RST38h: It's implied considering Qt is one ;)21:59
RST38hguysoft: Using exceptions here is unwarranted, unless your instructor told you to use them21:59
Sho_(Not that I want to discourage you from writing non-GUI Qt apps using qt-core, mind you)21:59
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RST38hderf: As I said, if you are stupid, no language is going to help you22:00
derfThis is categorically not true.22:01
RST38hderf: C+, C, Java, Visual Basic, FORTRAN - you can screw up in any language22:01
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RST38hYou will of course screw up a bit differently every time22:01
derfYes, but one language hands you a loaded gun with the nozzle tied to your toes.22:01
RST38hC++ does? Mmm22:01
RST38hWell, by all means, use that gun, get fired, switch to PHP.22:02
Sho_(A large amount of successful and performant C++ software would seem to be evidence to the contrary)22:02
derfThere are tons of things wrong with Java, but the one thing going for it is that it makes mediocre programmers relatively useful.22:02
RST38hJava does? And for what purpose do they become useful?22:03
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derfI work for a defense contractor with tons of mediocre programmers.22:03
RST38hAre there any useful tools written in Java?22:03
Sho_Actually I'd say that's what makes Java a problem, especially its use in teaching: It lowers the standard :-)22:03
RST38hEclipse? :)22:03
derfThere are volumes upon volumes of middleware written in Java, because businesses can hire these mediocre programmers, sit them down, and have them do a bunch of plumbing, and at the end things mostly work.22:04
RST38hMiddleware? :) Is it useful? :)22:04
RST38hAnd can't a small PERL script do the same thing? :)22:05
derfIt's useful enough that a bunch of businesses spent a ton of money on it.22:05
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derfPersonally I don't like to write plumbing. But there is a _huge_ market for it.22:05
Sho_Perl programmers, of course, go through two phases: In phase I, nobody can read their code, because they don't know the language. In phase II, nobody can read their code, because they know the language.22:05
RST38hWell, that is mainly a function of agressivness in marketing22:06
GeneralAntillesIsn't there a #c++ or something this can go to?22:06
derfIt's not the year 2000. If all they were was marketing, they wouldn't be here anymore.22:06
lcukderf, yeah and most of that business logic is held up with data access so no matter the performance level it doesnt matter22:06
RST38hGeneral: They probably ban for that =)22:06
derflcuk: Exactly.22:06
GeneralAntillesI'm all for offtopic, but you've monopolized the channel for almost an hour now and it's time to move on.22:06
derfJava is not a good language for performance, but it doesn't matter.22:06
lcukthats why visual basic works22:06
RST38hVB no longer works, replaced with C#22:06
lcuksame principle22:06
Sho_GeneralAntilles: You're probably righr, especially since the debate isn't exactly breaking new ground22:07
Sho_*right22:07
lcukyeah but thats same thing22:07
RST38hSho: Yea, it is the same old shit basically22:07
lcuktho now - microsoft have shot themselves in the foot by doing GUI in the same22:07
derfWell, I said at the beginning I did not expect this conversation to be productive.22:07
lcukand the users have noticed22:07
derfThough at least RST38h was cogent and did not attack me personally.22:07
RST38hSho: I kinda hoped for some original entertainment22:07
RST38hderf: Attacking opponent personally is considered loss22:08
Sho_RST38h: and I always fall into the anti-preprocessor flame trap ;-)22:08
lcukGeneralAntilles, conversation (even arguments) are good from time to time22:08
RST38hderf: Unless you do it in a really artistic way, pushing opponent toward eventual suicide22:08
GeneralAntilleslcuk, this one ran out its usefulness a long time ago22:08
GeneralAntillesand not when it prevents other people from getting answers to productive questions.22:09
lcukphoey, this is the first time in a long time ive seen this chan at what i expect as normal speed22:09
RST38hGeneral: It has been quiet here, no need to be this thick :)22:09
GeneralAntillesToday is "let's bicker" day, apparently.22:10
RST38hEvery day is let's bicker day lately22:10
lcukfriday cant be arsed day22:10
* lcuk is gonna get very drunk tonight22:10
lcukthen code22:10
RST38hEither time of the year or everybody is tired waiting for n90022:11
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RST38hlcuk: will it make liqbase do the jigsaw thing when scrolling? =)22:11
lcukjigsaw?22:11
RST38hyou know, scroll in little weirdly shaped pieces22:12
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lcukexplain22:12
r2d2rogerstearing?22:12
GeneralAntillesSomebody should implement a kinetic scrolling method in Clutter where pieces occasionally randomly tear off from whatever you're trying to scroll.22:13
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RST38hlcuk: Check out the jigsaw screensaver in Linux, imagine that instead of shifting pieces, each piece scrolls on its own in random direction :)22:13
lcuklol GeneralAntilles22:14
lcuk"classic" mode22:14
lcukRST38h, ive got the kinetic calendar - its got columns, i keep wanting each column to scroll on its own22:14
lcukto make an instrument22:14
RST38hheheh22:14
GeneralAntilles*scroll, scroll, scroll, flick, flick--RIIIIIIP*22:15
GeneralAntilles"Goddamnit!"22:15
RST38hand there is a monster jumping at you from the rip22:15
RST38hor the Crazy Nokia Fish (tm)22:15
GeneralAntillesExposed sparking circuit board22:15
RST38hbzzzzzzzt22:15
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lcuk:D22:17
lcukzoom fish!22:17
lcuksome dude in slashdot summarized my video perfectly22:17
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lcukThat was a very confusing video. What I learned from it: you haven't done some stuff, Zoom Fish!, widgets, Zoom Fish!, behind schedule, zoom, Fish!, widget framework, Fish!22:17
lcukI guess it's a system that lets you zoom in on fish?22:17
GeneralAntillesTear the piece off and water starts flowing out and filling up the screen.22:17
lcukhttp://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1120469&cid=2677575122:17
GeneralAntillesWater that you can shake around with the accelerometers.22:17
RST38hSamsung or LG has done that already22:18
RST38hTo indicate battery charge22:18
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, that's nice, but I want to see it on a tablet.22:21
RST38hGeneral: You probably will, not from Nokia, but the thing is too fun and too simple22:21
RST38hSomeone WILL implement it once we have accelerometers22:21
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* Stskeeps tries to get the cobwebs off himself after wandering in hildon-desktop application switcher22:33
harbaum__I like accelerometers :-)22:34
harbaum__Have built them for most of my gizmos22:34
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harbaum__The enigma just needs an accelerometer22:35
harbaum__s/enigma/enigma game/22:35
infobotharbaum__ meant: The enigma game just needs an accelerometer22:35
woglindere22:36
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coldbootWhat maemo repository can you use to get access to applications that debian would have, but aren't present in maemo diablo?22:40
coldbootFor example, I want to install cgdb, but diablo doesn't have it.22:40
GeneralAntillescoldboot, you'll have to recompile.22:41
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harbaum__Hmm, i just uploaded goocanvas to the fremantle repository. We'll see if there's an autobuilder processing this ...22:42
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woglindeharbaum *g*22:42
coldbootGeneralAntilles: Thanks.22:42
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lcukooof fremantle menu23:11
lcukoooh23:11
neatojonesb-man:  the e17 debs are all up.  They still seem to suffer from the same problems as the ones from before.23:11
neatojonesthat being: The onscreen keyboard doesn't work.23:11
vasily_pupkinanybody know map manager for maemo with search23:11
b-manhmm23:11
vasily_pupkin? :]23:11
neatojonesBut, I do have an idea to get around it.23:12
lcukvasily_pupkin, "treasure?"23:12
b-manok :)23:12
lcuk"error, not a pirate"23:12
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b-manneatojones: what's the plan? :)23:13
neatojonesI built e17 on my system into /opt/e17  then tar that folder.  I'm going to try extracting it to a new install.  Install the dependencies. then add /opt/e17/bin to the PATH file.23:13
neatojonesShould work the same as my install.23:13
* qwerty12_N800 wonders if he'll ever get a decent uptime on his tablet.23:13
lcukqwerty12_N800, yeah, just run normal apps23:14
qwerty12_N800Not gonna happen in this lifetime :)23:14
lcukyo uneed a spare23:14
lcuki need a keyboard23:15
X-FadeSigh, I need a copy of the Nokia binaries repo for fremantle for the autobuilder..23:15
neatojonesb-man: it will also have the advantages that it will update to the latest svn anytime the user wants if they install a package which I will link to.23:15
neatojonesand hopefully prevent the other problems.23:15
qwerty12_N800lcuk: My best is 2d 11h :/ : http://qwerty12.maemobox.org/N800_Uptime.htm23:15
lcukawww23:15
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neatojonesbut, that's about all I can think to do for now, till I can find a way to get fix whatever is going wrong.23:15
lcukmine stays up for much longer normally23:15
lcukbut today it didnt23:15
b-manok :)23:16
neatojonesturns out the entire e17 folder is only 52MB extracted.  :023:16
b-manheh23:16
b-manneatojones: should i wait a little longer before i upload it to the repo?23:17
neatojonesSo, I'm reflashing the SD with 0.9 now to test the theory.23:17
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neatojonesNah.  The e17 debs work.23:17
b-mank23:17
neatojonesThey just don't have an onscreen keyboard.  Some of the extra modules haven't been built yet either.23:18
neatojonesbut, it functions.23:18
luke-jrI uses 'sox -t alsa default z.wav' to record some audio; any idea how I can play it?23:18
luke-jror did I not record anything really?23:18
neatojonesAlso, the background has those annoying horizontal lines you can see in qole's screenshots.23:18
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, big issue?23:18
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Nah, just need help from Marcell or Stefano. But I guess they have better things to do on a Friday night ;)23:19
neatojonesb-man:  I'm going to try to build e17 again later with support for evas-software--16bit-X11 and see if that fixes it.23:19
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, can't you just get a hash and feed it the repo?23:19
b-manneatojones: ok23:19
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Then the hash will be in every log ;)23:20
GeneralAntillesAh23:20
neatojonesThere is something not happening with the deb builds compared to the manual build23:20
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Hence the local repo ;)23:20
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, did you set up a local?23:20
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Well no, I need the files to set it up on the builder.23:20
b-manneatojones: do you think editing /debian/rules might help?23:20
neatojonesb-man: also, the e17 depends on the libgtk2.0 that is in the Mer repo.  So, you might want it too23:21
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, just copy 'em over?23:21
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Firewall, hidden stuff.23:21
neatojonesb-man:  It might.  I've been looking into it.  I've played with the control files and the e17-data.install file as well.23:21
neatojonesthe log from the build looks like the keyboard files should be there...but they dont end up in the package.  I don't get it.23:21
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, yeah, OK, I'll shut up. You clearly know WTF is what. :D23:21
b-manit might have something to do with MakeFile also23:22
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, don't tell me we're gonna have to wait 'til Monday, though?23:22
neatojonesI would think the makefile would be the same if I used dpkg-buildpackage or just make23:22
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Nah, but it won't be today probably.23:23
neatojones..sigh.  I'll get it figured out eventually.  I just need other people to test and try it who might be able to figure it out.23:24
neatojonesb-man:  Like I said, it is functional...but just missing some of the best features.23:25
b-manit might have different settings23:25
b-mani'll upload the debs then and then update them when you get those fixed :)23:26
neatojonessounds good :)23:26
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X-Fadeqwerty12_N800: Can you upload a package to the diablo autobuilder, to see if I did't break anything? :)23:27
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qwerty12_N800X-Fade: I can upload the useless subcategories test v0.2? :)23:28
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* b-man needs to update his mer install while he's at it also23:28
X-Fadeqwerty12_N800: Nah, some working package. Just spin the revision +1 ;)23:28
neatojonesb-man: by the way...it was thopiekar that said you couldn't run AWN.23:28
neatojonesyou might wanna show your pics to him.23:29
b-manhehe23:29
neatojones:)23:29
b-mani will :D23:29
neatojonesdid you convert your tablet to OS-X yet?23:29
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b-mannot yet, but i will ;)23:29
neatojones:D23:29
qwerty12_N800X-Fade: I don't have anything to hand :(. I'd like to upload the improved Transmission but source for that is on my comp23:30
b-man:)23:30
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X-Fadeqwerty12_N800: Ok, no problem. I just thought you might have had something handy.23:30
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GeneralAntillesyerga, I want those Modest screenies. :P23:32
yergaGeneralAntilles, I want a rx-51 ;)23:32
GeneralAntillesyerga, don't we all. :(23:32
yergaGeneralAntilles, there isn't much to see in the screenshots23:32
yergait's better play with it23:32
* qwerty12_N800 gives yerga a complementary "RX-71"23:33
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yergaqwerty12_N800, thanks!23:33
qwerty12_N800hehe :P23:33
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GeneralAntillesI think we need another title for yerga, though. I'm thinking "releaseminer" or maybe "spymaster"23:33
qwerty12_N800yerga: so give us the debs! :D23:33
GeneralAntillesyerga, have you considered throwing your hat in the ring for Council?23:33
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yergaGeneralAntilles, I dont like administrative work :P23:34
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* lcuk likes the work yerga is doing though23:34
yergalcuk, thanks23:34
yergaI like your work too23:35
yergaliqbase it's the most advanced app in Maemo ;)23:35
woglindehihi23:35
lcuknot for long :)23:35
GeneralAntillesPshaw! Advanced Backlight is the most advanced app in Maemo! :P23:36
t_s_ohow is the advanced power daemon started?23:36
GeneralAntillesIt's _Advanced_!23:36
lcuklol gan23:36
woglindelol23:36
* qwerty12_N800 votes for X terminal :p23:36
lcukits bloody well is - the work it took to make that dialog sit properly was immense23:36
qwerty12_N800t_s_o: /etc/init.d/apmd start ?23:37
lcukit was a hildon secret23:37
t_s_odamn it, how silly of me. i spotted the python thing in htop and didnt expect it to have some much smaller name in init.d...23:38
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t_s_obah, why is nearly everything i like on the tablet, python based?!23:39
qwerty12_N800python likes you too23:40
lcukt_s_o, cos its the glue that binds us23:41
lcukits vbscript or arexx for maemo23:41
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t_s_oheh, and eats battery like nothing else from the looks of it...23:41
qwerty12_N800Nah, viruses are made with vbscript23:41
lcukand a virus is different from corporate policy, how?23:42
GeneralAntilleslcuk, your comment makes no sense.23:43
t_s_olcuk: meme virus?23:43
qwerty12_N800which one...23:43
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, about the browser and back.23:43
qwerty12_N800gathered :)23:44
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lcukgan, i cannot close the application (with its X) until all other subwindows (which are overlapping the X) are closed23:45
GeneralAntillesUm?23:46
GeneralAntillesWhich subwindows?23:46
mikkov_lcuk, all dialogs have been modal anyway23:46
mikkov_you have had to close dialogs first23:46
lcukperhaps dialogs would be the wrong word.  a stack of windows relating to an app.  main screen then and edit screen for instance.  to close the app i would have to first click back, then click close23:47
lcuksome apps may have multiple levels of windows requiring you to go "back" from23:48
GeneralAntilleslcuk, um, "back"?23:48
GeneralAntilleslcuk, you haven't seen the task switched23:48
GeneralAntillesThat's just the Application Menu.23:48
GeneralAntillesWhere you launch applications from.23:48
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GeneralAntillesAnyway, applications on Maemo don't use the Windows style of window management.23:49
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lcukdidnt suggest it did, just looks out of place being where it is23:50
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qwerty12_N800looks fine. only problem i have with it is that it23:50
GeneralAntillesEither I'm not understanding something about what you're saying or you're not understanding something about those screenshots.23:50
GeneralAntillesOh well.23:51
* GeneralAntilles goes to make dinner.23:51
qwerty12_N800sometimes grays out even though it can be used23:51
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lcukyeah qwerty, the stlying is nice now23:51
lcuki relaly like the dark theme23:52
sementehi! I have a n800 with last OS2008 and I would like know how passwords are stored in Maemo, such the passwords of SIP, Jabber, Mail accounts, etc.23:52
qwerty12_N800gconf23:52
qwerty12_N800Grab gconf-editor (in extras for chinook; extras-devel for diablo) and look through23:53
qwerty12_N800lemme find the key names23:53
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qwerty12_N800(or gconftool-2 --dump I think works too...)23:54
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yergalcuk, you are right about the 'back' thing23:55
yergathere is application with diverse screens23:55
qwerty12_N800semente: /apps/modest/server_accounts - email passwords; /apps/telepathy/mc/accounts - im passwords23:55
yergaand you need go back to the first to close it23:55
yergaI won't say what applications ;)23:56
lcuk:)23:56
qwerty12_N800Yerga. "The master of suspense." :p23:56
lcukits easy going "back" with a hardware button though :P23:56
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sementeqwerty12_N800: thank you!23:58
yergaI don't know if it'll be useful but gftp is working with pannable areas :)23:58
qwerty12_N800Hehe, cool :)23:58
torkianohello all, is there any identi.ca client for maemo (diablo)?23:59

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