IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2009-02-16

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qwerty12_N800RST38h: odd. uiq's gone so I guess it makes sense. I know that symbian foma's been used on the japanese phones... but i've always wanted a s60 se phone... lets see how this turns out00:00
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Stskeepsheh, next up, Sony-Ericsson bought by Nokia :p00:01
RST38hqwerty: I still suspect it is using WinMo, not S6000:01
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StskeepsWinMo with a shiny shell00:02
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Stskeepsthat is really the norm these days isn't it?00:02
qwerty12_N800it still looks a  bit  like uiq's default font00:02
* qwerty12_N800 never thought he'd be seeing the day where lack of buttons is apparently a feature 00:04
Stskeepsthey should really employ those things where you can add physical buttons to the screen by putting them on top of the screen00:04
Stskeepsadd a d-pad, place here.00:05
GeneralAntilleslol00:05
Stskeepsthink of it though, - general purpose tablet devices00:05
Stskeepswhich can be extended with physical elements00:05
GeneralAntillesThen Stskeeps can mack LCARS printouts to go behind them http://www.chproducts.com/retail/mfp.html00:06
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: yes, that is what i was thinking of00:07
Stskeepsbut my idea was to have it directly on display :P00:07
GeneralAntilles<3 CH Products00:07
GeneralAntillesWow00:07
GeneralAntilles2TB hard drives00:07
* GeneralAntilles missed that one.00:07
Stskeepsi'd rather have a raidz2 with smaller drives instead of loosing 2tb at a time.00:08
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, hehe, yeah, I'm thinking like that too.00:08
GeneralAntillesI recall jumping for joy over a 75MB hard drive.00:09
Stskeepsmm, i went from 20mb to 400mb00:09
Stskeepsi was amazed00:09
Stskeepsthen again, i found windows 1.0 fascinating at some point00:10
GeneralAntillesIt's a bit scary to think how far tech has come.00:10
Stskeepson the other hand, it is fascinating to listen to my dads stories of early tech in .dk00:11
GeneralAntillesI like my dad's stories of rifling through garbage cans to get discarded punchcards to use as templates for assignments.00:12
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Stskeepshehe00:13
fireunnot gonna find many discarded usb flash drives in the trash these days00:14
fireununless you're at los alamos of course (;00:14
fireunor maybe wallstreet00:14
fireunmaybe ebay is the modern equiv00:15
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* RST38h once read about some security researcher (sic) spreading viruses on "discarded" usb flash drives00:27
RST38hjust to see how many people will snuff 'em00:28
befr0d_RST38h, ati85 ftw =)00:29
ProteousRST38h: I've read about that, funny stuff00:38
Proteoussome of the sandisk cruser drives have a virtual CDrom on them that you can hack so that on windows it will autorun code when you insert it00:39
Proteousthe researchers I was reading about had to rely on putting inticing files on the flash drive in hopes that people would run them00:39
qwerty12_N800gonzor payload... good times i had at school...00:39
Proteousheh00:39
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: happen to know where HAL picks up the info if its a RX-34 and all that jazz?00:40
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: no but I can flnd out00:40
Stskeepsk00:41
Stskeepsmxr? :P00:41
qwerty12_N800no, good ol investigation of the files in my tablet :)00:42
Stskeepshehe00:42
Stskeepsi just realized the reason the HAL rule didn't match was .. because it had no hw to match with00:42
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: at a guess, somewhere, it reads /proc/cpuinfo & /proc/component_version00:46
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: yeah, HAL ..01:09
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* Stskeeps yawns01:15
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lcukacademic interest, i solved the flickering.  http://pastebin.ca/133846902:03
* lcuk removes 100s of lines of debug02:04
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* b-man updates status for merinstaller for tomorrows 0.8 release03:59
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slonopotamusmorning07:11
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befr0d_hi07:18
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slonopotamusoh my. is there any tool to find unused includes in C programs?07:56
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slonopotamusi was fingting with cx3110x-module that wanted to include a file that i didn't have. and guess  what? it doesn't need it.07:57
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StsN801heh, danish translation of facebook fail.. button on another persons page saying 'slå op', which means 'break up' in context of a person or relationship.. or 'look up', which is what they probably meant10:10
* X-Fade is back10:12
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StsN801hehe, hope you had a good week off:)10:14
X-FadeOh, yes. Plenty of snow ;)10:15
StsN801similar here.. then again, shoveling snow is better for your mental health than system administration10:16
X-FadeWell, I was skiing, so that is the more pleasant way of dealing with snow :)10:16
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StsN801hehe, indeed10:17
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JaffaMorning, all10:48
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Stskeepsmorning Jaffa10:49
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Stskeepsi seriously wonder what the heck caused ubuntu to drop 30mb in compressed size10:52
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Macerawesome10:56
Stskeepsmm?10:57
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Macerjust finished making a new dns and shell box10:57
Macerwell.. dns and shell VMs ;)10:57
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: 0.8 today?10:58
Meiz_n810you can ssh to my tablet if needed10:58
StskeepsMeiz_n810: yes, want an image to dl while you're at school? (not snowed in i presume?)10:58
Stskeepswell, that or apt-get dist-upgrade10:58
Stskeepsi found out what caused it not to autodetect, yesterday, so10:59
Meiz_n810yes, gimme a new image10:59
Meiz_n810:)10:59
Stskeepsk10:59
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Stskeepsthis image just came out of the oven so i am testing it right now too11:00
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StskeepsMeiz_n810: quiver looks -nice-11:04
Stskeepswho made that_11:04
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: i like it too, no idea who made it11:05
qwerty12_N800it's closed source :/11:05
andre__Stskeeps, ubuntu size drop - which version?11:05
Stskeepsandre__: jaunty11:05
Stskeepswell, i noticed our images suddenly dropped 30mb in compressed size11:06
X-FadeStskeeps: Maybe artwork or some documentation?11:06
Stskeepspossible11:06
timelesshello world11:06
Stskeepsor they removed some insane dependancy11:06
timelessx-fade?11:06
timelessi'm looking for string help11:06
andre__i know that we removed lots of unused images cruft from the evolution user docs e.g. :)11:06
X-Fadetimeless: here..11:06
Stskeepslike, let's say, libgweather for network manager11:06
timelessopen browser settings, second tab11:06
luke-jrhow is the 3D performance on N810?11:07
timelessthere's an option which basically means "if you uncheck this, most pages you try to load will give you a useless error message"11:07
RST38hAny news from MWC?11:07
Stskeepsluke-jr: software rendering.11:07
StskeepsRST38h: don't think it's just yet11:07
luke-jrStskeeps: yeah, I know that.. but how is it? :x11:07
RST38hSts: http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/live-from-nokias-mwc-2009-press-conference/11:07
X-Fadetimeless: Connection tab?11:07
timelessyep11:08
X-Fadetimeless: 3 options: Homepage addres, Use default homepage and enable automatic redirection.11:08
timelessx-fade: we're going to try11:08
timeless"Enable Web Redirects\n(Disabling will break most websites)"11:09
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X-FadeAh ;)11:09
* Stskeeps tries to boot 0.811:09
timelessx-fade: i've made a new forjx if you want to try :)11:10
* Stskeeps wonders why rsa key generation is so much slower than dsa key generation11:11
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X-Fadetimeless: Maybe later, I'm trying to plow through a one week email backlog ;)11:11
StskeepsRST38h: http://events.nokia.com/mwc/home.htm11:13
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Stskeepshardware time11:16
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jeremiahGood Morning all. :)11:17
Stskeepsmorning, first day at work ;)11:19
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RST38hSts: ! Does not load though11:20
RST38hmoo wazd11:20
StskeepsRST38h: watching though11:20
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Proteousme tooo11:20
jeremiahStskeeps: Exactly. :)11:21
Proteousbooorrinnngggg11:21
wazdhohoho)11:21
* RST38h forgot to mention the so called "flash video" as an entry in the list of his hate subjects11:21
wazdChristmas time!11:21
wazdhttp://events.nokia.com/mwc/home.htm11:21
Proteousstop talking about lotas notes11:21
Proteouslotus11:21
RST38hSts: Anything new?11:21
Stskeepswazd: not yet11:21
Proteousnot yet11:21
Stskeepswazd: it is even snowing outside11:21
Proteous*snore*11:21
* Jaffa 's not holding his breath11:22
RST38hOk, Engadget has got the plain text log11:22
Proteousgood, you'd have passed out by now11:22
Proteousnew phone11:25
wazdnice11:25
wazdE5511:25
Proteousseems we are moving back to T9...11:26
Proteousthe broken english is killing me11:26
wazdwht, full qwerty :)11:26
Stskeepsa month of standby time?11:26
Stskeepswtf11:26
Stskeepsis it fuel cell powered? :P11:26
wazdnice phone11:27
timelessproteous: what broken English?11:27
RST38hbleah11:27
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Stskeepstimeless: en_FI? ;)11:27
RST38hhalf-a-keyboard, quarter-a-screen11:27
Proteouslol11:27
timelesssts: that's what i think when i see broken English11:28
timelessjust wondering if that's what he meant11:28
wazdok, tablet's time))11:28
Stskeepsen_DA is worse11:28
timelessis that Danish English?11:28
wazdhah))\11:28
Stskeepshah, messing up product numbers11:28
timeless?11:28
wazdI always said that nokia n*** system is stupid)11:29
Stskeepshe went n95->n97,e7511:29
ProteousI hate phones with full keyboards and tiny ass screens11:29
Stskeepstimeless: yes, horrible accented danish english11:29
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wazdhe's pretty nervous :)11:29
* RST38h likes E75, but has said so before11:29
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timelessum11:30
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timelessdon't google images for e7511:30
timelessat least, not at work11:30
Proteouslol11:30
qwerty12haha11:30
Proteousbetter then the E71?11:31
RST38hyes11:31
RST38hE71 has got tiny little keys11:31
* timeless likes the e61i11:31
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* Proteous likes the n9711:31
Stskeepsprices aren't that bad so far11:32
Proteousthe dollars to euros ratio sucks nowdays11:32
Proteousso they look pretty expensive to me :)11:32
RST38hdidn't it for the last n years?11:32
Proteousheh11:32
Stskeepsno, not ovi :(11:32
Proteousnice tie11:33
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RST38hIs "ovi" a finnish word for "enema"?11:33
wazdok, boring time)11:33
timelessDoor[k]11:33
Proteousheh11:33
RST38h375 euros for E7511:33
RST38hfor this price, they should have at least installed a bigger screen11:33
aquatixRST38h: "ovi" isn't plural voor "egg" or something?11:34
aquatixhm, what will the N97 be?11:35
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RST38haquatix: that is Latin, I think11:35
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aquatixRST38h: that was my hunch11:36
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Proteousass applications have gone mainstream11:37
Proteouswho knew?11:37
RST38haquatix: it is singular too, plural will be something like "ovae"11:37
StskeepsMeiz_n810: progress on dl?11:37
wazdaaaah, stop the lecture please :(11:38
* RST38h wonders what happens when the "services" bubble pops11:38
Proteous*PAUSE FOR NO APPLAUSE11:38
RST38hPoor Nokia will take a huge hit11:38
Stskeepssometimes i wonder how finns can even sell stuff.. not much passion in the voice at all11:38
Stskeeps(yes, im biased, dated a finnish girl for some years :P)11:39
Proteousheh11:39
RST38hwazd: On the other hand, maybe MTS can somehow sell them their logo, at heavy discount =)11:39
wazdRST38h: xD\11:39
ProteousWE ARE SO INOVATIVE!! WE ARE TOTALY NOT BEHIND BOTH APPLE AND ANDROID!11:39
ProteousOUR STORE IS TOTALY DIFFERNT11:39
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wazdProteous: NOWAI?! DID HE SAID THAT?!!111:40
* Jaffa just can't understand device/marque-specific services like Ovi trying to be social.11:40
Proteoussocial is the way to go for everything11:40
RST38hJaffa: it is the buzzword. they have to follow the buzzwords.11:40
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Proteouseven my breakfast cereal is socal nowdays11:40
Proteousso are my pants11:40
RST38hAs I said, when this crap pops, they will be up for a rude awakening11:41
JaffaDevice-tie in doesn't work. I'm not going to choose my friends based on the device they have.11:41
Meiz__n810Stskeeps: what was the trick needed for Fn?11:41
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StskeepsMeiz__n810: oh boy. it doesn't detect?11:41
jeremiahActually I think there is some room for innovation and growth around mobile phone social apps.11:41
jeremiahCould be interesting.11:41
StskeepsMeiz__n810: (you in mer 0.8 image now?)11:41
X-FadeStskeeps: How's Mer on beagle running nowadays?11:41
Meiz__n810Stskeeps: yes, Fn didn't work automatically11:41
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StskeepsMeiz__n810: excuse my french, but, fuck. try setxkbmap -model nokiarx44 -layout fisenoda11:42
Meiz__n810ookay11:42
StskeepsX-Fade: boots and shows on screen. I dont have a powered usb hub so i cannot test input devices11:42
Stskeepsbut should be easily bootable11:42
StskeepsX-Fade: 0.8 will have beagleboard release too11:42
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X-FadeStskeeps: Nice.11:43
StskeepsMeiz__n810: works with fn now?11:44
RST38h"The service can recommend the best of where you are." So it's recommending Spanish podcasts, Spanish lessons, and Lonely Planet content based on the phone's presence in Barcelona."11:45
RST38hAre we all supposed to be impressed or what?11:45
StskeepsRST38h: it is a lot more difficult to impress computer scientists who have seen this stuff in research labs for years..11:47
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glassStskeeps: crappy cs:ists are very easy to impress though because they don't see outsides of their lab..11:47
Stskeepsglass: yes, of course11:47
Proteousyou don't have to be a research scientist to find it boring11:47
RST38hSts: What if I want a Tiger lillies album while in Barcelona?11:48
RST38hSts: Or an obscure book?11:48
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Proteousmaybe the figure if they keep telling us that this is the next generation it will actualy be true11:48
RST38hSts: Can it guess that?11:48
StskeepsRST38h: nop, and it is probably meant to be an assistant, not a wizard11:48
RST38hSts: Stupid assistants are fired.11:48
wazdok, no tablet11:49
Stskeepsthen again, last.fm does it quite nicely11:49
RST38hSts: BTW, stupid wizards are burned at a stake11:49
Proteous"She turned me into a newt!"11:49
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: works now, after that command11:49
Proteous"A newt?"11:49
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Proteous"Well, I got better"11:49
StskeepsMeiz_n810: lovely. lshal me11:49
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StskeepsMeiz_n810: otherwise, how does it work?11:58
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wazdboring(12:01
Stskeepsyup12:01
wazdlet's wait for tommorow's Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo keynote12:02
olimorning :)12:02
wazdhello)12:02
RST38hwazd: Are they gonna announce more stuff?12:03
RST38hMmmm12:03
StskeepsMeiz_n810: i think i'm going to verify that VMDK works and say that this image is the 0.8 - Fn ability is reachable and we can provide it as an update12:03
Stskeepssince the HAL information is already a package12:03
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: is it ok, if i lshal later? i'm on maemo now.12:03
StskeepsMeiz_n810: yes, it's fine12:04
wazdRST38h: if they won't announce new tablet on MWC it would be epic fail12:04
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Stskeepsi kinda think n97 is the new tablet, but that is me..12:05
wazdStskeeps: it's omap212:05
wazdStskeeps: I doubt :)12:05
qwerty12Stskeeps, it's also s60, fremantle would kinda be a waste then...12:05
Stskeepsqwerty12: well, think of it environmentally, able to put both firmwares on..12:06
Stskeeps.. or something12:06
* Stskeeps goes back to testing mer12:06
qwerty12Stskeeps, a device shipped with a locked down system of sorts and with a open system?12:06
qwerty12The two don't really go together12:06
Stskeepsqwerty12: well, if you can boot two different kinds of firmware images? :P12:07
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Stskeepsmorning, lcuk12:08
qwerty12Stskeeps, that's what I'm saying though, I don't think that's going to happen due to symbian being locked down. It's odd to ship a locked device but say ok then, you can put maemo on it and have it open12:08
RST38hwazd: Not an epic fail of course, but a bad sign12:08
Stskeepsqwerty12: maybe12:09
lcukhey Stskeeps good mornin12:09
RST38hwazd: As I said yesterday (and got GeneralAntilles angry), as far as customers are concerned, 5800/N97 *are* the next tablets12:09
lcukqwerty12, but but but but didnt nokia pay off their partners so they COULD open it up12:09
RST38hwazd: And NITs are more like a semiexperimental product, akin to the first PDAs12:10
lcukthey are a hardware platform more akin to the beagleboards..12:10
qwerty12lcuk, that's not for a few years and signing still exists on the 5800 and N97 is gonna run the same version of s6012:10
lcukwaiting for the right software to be sat on them :)12:10
lcukfair enough12:11
RST38hWhy is everybody so concerned about signing?12:11
qwerty12RST38h, it says a lot about the openness12:11
RST38hDo you know that you can SELF-SIGN S60 apps and get pretty much all the features you need?12:11
StskeepsRST38h: ability to repurpose my tablets if need be12:11
lcuksigning is a legit way to do QA in a distributed environment12:11
qwerty12RST38h, lemme know when you can self sign your way to AllFiles permission12:12
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lcukqwerty12, you know FAR too much about everything nokia, are you a secret adaptive technodrone?12:13
lcukthe AI for the next gen system? :D12:13
lcuk(note, i said AI like ali g)12:13
qwerty12lcuk, nope, I just used to be on the nokia warez sites a lot :)12:14
lcukon'tday entionmay ethay arezway itessay12:15
RST38hqwerty: But why do you need allfiles?12:15
RST38hqwerty: Your application needs anything from C:\bin or what?12:15
lcukto be able to replace the sign checking app with a bare stump12:16
lcukor to include your own wardialer12:16
RST38hhow useful is this for a normal user?12:16
qwerty12RST38h, it's nice to be able to browse files from C:\system to change things like op logo like I could do in symbian 6.112:16
lcukdid qwerty EVER assert he was a normal user?12:16
qwerty12RST38h, like I say, it says a lot about the openness12:17
RST38hlcuk: Well, I have been talking about S60 from the point of view of a normal user or a regular app developer12:17
RST38hlcuk: Self signing is sufficient for 99% of these12:17
qwerty12RST38h, go on any warez site and see the amount of n00bs trying to get help to sign x-plore so they can get access to the full filesystem12:17
lcuki tend to agree12:17
lcukRST38h, its like 99% would be ok with html dev and a bit of python scripting12:18
lcukhow well would your emulator work on iphone by the way.. ?12:18
RST38hlcuk: not really, you can do lots of native stuff with self signed12:18
RST38hlcuk: No idea, have never been interested in iphone12:19
lcuki understand that, but thats the effect12:19
RST38hlcuk: Do notice that iPhone restrictions have nothing to do with S60 restrictions12:19
RST38hlcuk: very, VERY different12:19
RST38hqwerty: Well, do not go to warez sites12:19
lcukno, but its restrictions all the same.  neither of you can get at the core lowest level to code how you want12:19
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RST38hqwerty: You steal stuff -> you suffer.12:19
lcukyou hit a barrier12:19
RST38hlcuk: I can with S6012:20
RST38hlcuk: No problem at all12:20
StskeepsSymbian is much about the DRM isn't it_12:20
qwerty12RST38h, too late for that :>, but even tons of people who don't know shit want allfiles (dunno if they want it for fun)12:20
Stskeepswhich is probably why it is difficult to do AllFiles12:20
RST38hlcuk: Can even get screen buffer address and screw with it however I want12:20
lcukcool, you and lots may be ok, but there are some who resent the barrier12:20
RST38hqwerty: If you do not know shit, you do not need allfiles12:20
RST38hqwerty: Maybe you *think* you need it because someone told you, but you really don't12:21
RST38hlcuk: Groundless resentment is not a valid argument.12:21
lcukwhy isnt it? its what real people out there do12:21
RST38hSts: I have yet to meet DRM in Symbian =)12:21
RST38hlcuk: Yes, it is what 1% of S60 users do12:22
RST38hlcuk: Remaining 99% do not care12:22
qwerty12*I* need it because I hack all my phones, but I can't claim symbian to be open when you have to beg symbiansigned for a cert to sign your shit12:22
lcukagreed entirely12:22
Stskeepsqwerty12: OLPC isn't entirely open either, heh12:22
lcukqwerty12, do you have to present your shit in a little clear plastic bag? or do you just take a photo of it in the bowl?12:22
RST38hqwerty: Now, their "openness" claims are somewhat overblown :)12:22
RST38hBut for all practical purposes, they are open enough12:23
lcukRST38h, just like in linux a "user" without root permissions can do lots, but there are some situations where root is wanted, especially in a home machine12:23
RST38hlcuk: See, there are people who drill their skulls and people who hang themselves from huge metal hooks12:24
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RST38hlcuk: It is called "diversity"12:24
RST38hlcuk: Nobody arrests them or anything, but nobody cares about them either12:24
lcukRST38h, yeah, trepanation sounds relaxing actually12:24
RST38hlcuk: So, when I hear another "OSS advocate" ramble about evil Symbian signing process, I just idly wonder if he knows what he is talking about12:25
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RST38hThere is a well defined set of apps you can't do due to Symbian signing and it is very small and eclectic12:26
lcuki used to as well, but i honestly thought it had already changed, is signing going to go away on existing devices once they open it up, or is this opening up not backwards compatible12:26
qwerty12But that "1%" is still there, laying claim to the fact that it isn't open12:26
RST38hPretty much only realy useful thing you can't do is the file type recognizers, due to an architectural mistake in Symbian12:26
RST38hqwerty: As I said, skull drillers are also here, but who gives a fuck?12:27
qwerty12Fuck them, I'm talking about symbian12:27
RST38hIBM made a 32nm Cortex, hehe12:27
lcukthats like the wookie defense12:27
wazdhttp://www.htc.com/www/12:36
wazdhtc updated the site too early))12:37
timelesstimeless.justdave.net/maemo/setalarm.png12:37
timelessanyone have thoughts about the 'Select' button?12:37
X-Fadetimeless: 'Set alarm' :)12:41
X-FadeHmm what is that select used for anyway?12:41
X-FadeShouldn't that be OK and Cancel?12:41
JaffaX-Fade: it's "Browse" the the "Sound" box isn't it?12:42
X-FadeJaffa: I guess so, very confusing as the sound thing is a select box already?12:43
timelessright12:44
timelessis 'choose' better?12:44
timelessremember i'm testing Diablo apps w/ Fremantle hildon in VMWare using my strings12:44
timeless(running Mer of course)12:45
timelessdo i need 'Custom sound' ?12:45
GeneralAntilleslol . . . everybody gets hyped up over an announcement we pretty much knew wasn't coming here then is disappointed and worried.12:50
timeless?12:50
timelesswhat's this?12:50
timelessbtw, why don't i have a map in my clock?12:50
GeneralAntillestimeless, can you fix the "updating repositories" string in h-a-m?12:51
timelessi have /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/qgn_indi_worldmap.jpg12:51
timelessgan: i believe so, what should it say?12:51
qwerty12timeless, tried gtk-update-icon-cache -f /usr/share/icons/hicolor ?12:51
GeneralAntillesNow it says "Checking for updates; please wait"12:51
qwerty12Actually, dunno if the map image is cached12:52
GeneralAntillesAt the very least, "please wait" should be dropped12:52
timelessok12:52
timelessyeah, definitely my string12:52
GeneralAntilles"Updating application catalog..." was what I was thinking12:52
timelessare you sure it's only used in one place?12:52
timeless(source is open, you can check)12:52
timelesshildon-application-manager-l10n-enus1/po/en_US.po:msgstr "Checking for updates; please wait"12:52
timelesshildon-application-manager-l10n-enus1/po/en_US.po:msgstr "Preparing to install; please wait"12:52
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GeneralAntillesI mean, we've got a  dialog with a progress bar12:53
GeneralAntillescan't we assume we're waiting?12:53
timelessis 'application catalog' the user's catalog?12:53
timelessas opposed to the catalogs the user told the app about?12:53
timelessmsgstr "Updating application catalog"12:54
timelessmsgstr "Preparing to install"12:54
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GeneralAntillesApplication catalog is what's used in the menu.12:56
timelessqwerty: tried, no good12:56
qwerty12odd12:56
timelessgan: ok, i've changed them locally, repacking12:56
GeneralAntillesIt'd be nice if we could have it display what catalog it's updating.12:57
timelessfile a bug12:57
timelessbut keep in mind that some versions of apt clients do multiple concurrently12:57
timelessthat's well beyond my powers12:57
timelessodd12:58
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timelessham can't reach my internal repo12:58
qwerty12Stskeeps, if I get powerlaunch running in Mer, would it be a help? I need a way to reboot without taking my battery out (sudo reboot takes too long for me - yes, I'm lazy)12:58
Stskeepsqwerty12: yes, of course12:58
Stskeepseven minimal functionality12:59
jeremiahHello Niels!13:00
X-FadeOur new debmaster speaks :)13:00
timelessqwerty/et al13:00
timelesswait, debmaster, where?13:00
timelessi was just going to ask for someone to explain diversions13:00
jeremiahHi X-Fade, Have seen your name around the wiki and stuff. :)13:00
timelesshow do ithey work? :)13:00
jeremiahtimeless: Can't you start with easier questions?13:00
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, how was vacation?13:00
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, the site managed not to fall to pieces while you were out. ;)13:01
timelessjeremiah: when someone installs my package, they get better strings13:01
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Lots of snow and no broken bones..13:01
timelesswhen they uninstall them, they have no strings13:01
timelesswhy? :)13:01
timeless(easier question, presumably the same answer)13:01
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: I monitored it every once in a while, but did no actual work ;)13:01
jeremiahtimeless: When you say strings - can you be more specific?13:01
jeremiahWhat programming language for example?13:02
timelessjeremiah: do you have diablo-extras enabled for your device?13:02
timelessand have you backed it up recently?13:02
timelesserr diablo extras-devel13:02
timelesssorry :)13:02
jeremiahtimeless: Heh, no not yet. I will be working on an environment today.13:02
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jeremiahBut describe the issue and I will try to reporduce it.13:03
timelessum, do you have any devices? :)13:04
timelessopen application manager13:04
GeneralAntilleshttp://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/diablo/free/source/l/language-support-translations-enus1/13:04
timelessclick the app title to open the app menu13:04
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timelessgan: i doubt that'll do anything useful13:05
timelessremember ham won't do dependencies for a .deb13:05
* timeless kicks ham in the pork13:05
GeneralAntillestimeless, right, but we at least know what we're talking about now. ;)13:05
GeneralAntillesI'd rather it didn't resolve .deb dependencies13:05
GeneralAntillesWe don't want to encourage people to toss around random .debs.13:05
timelessanyway, in the menu, click tools>application catalog(ue)13:05
GeneralAntillesPackages should be distributed through repositories.13:05
jeremiahtimeless: How do you know this is happening in the packaging process? (Not to say it is not.)13:06
timelessif you're using en-GB, you're going to eventually (soon) need to switch to en-US (we'll talk that through later, but tell me now)13:06
timelessi wrote the debs? :)13:06
jeremiahokay, good reason . . .13:06
timelessin catalogs you probably will see a diablo extras repo13:07
timelessit's probably disabled13:07
timelesssince i'm lazy, we'll hijack it, click it, click edit13:07
timelessin the address, change extras to extras-devel13:07
timelessand uncheck the disabled button13:07
timelessnow you'll want to close the dialog chain13:07
timelessit should update your catalog13:08
qwerty12Or use the install here: https://garage.maemo.org/extras-assistant/install/extras-devel.install13:08
timelessoh sure, make life easy for him13:08
* timeless sighs13:08
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timelesswhere i came from, we only had a pen and paper13:08
qwerty12:P13:08
timelesswe couldn't even erase :)13:08
jeremiahheh13:09
timelessanyway, however you install extras-devel, is up to you13:09
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timelessyou could use /etc/apt/sources.list[.d/whatever] for all i care13:09
timelessi'm just pretending i don't know anything about *garage and have something like a device in front of me13:09
timeless(i really know very little about garage)13:10
jeremiahtimeless: When you say "better" what do you mean? Easier to read?13:10
timelessjeremiah: i'll let someone else describe that13:10
timelessanyway, from here, in ham, select 'browse installable applications'13:10
timelessi think that's whatit's called13:10
timelessthen click the binoculars13:10
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timelessenter 'US English' and click ok13:11
timelessyou should get one result13:11
GeneralAntillesSo, NVIDIA is shipping a $99 Tegra-based (600, so, ARM11) MID sometime in 2010?13:11
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timelessgan: interesting13:11
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timelessjeremiah: at this point, you can browse through the tabs, find out that i'm the author, read the description, perhaps read the dependencies13:12
timeless(although you need red pill mode iirc to read dependencies, if you don't know about red pill mode, i'm sure a bot will explain it)13:12
GeneralAntillesThe price is optimistic, I think, but the hardware is going to be way behind the curve by that point.13:12
timelessgan: soudns good13:12
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, "better" meaning more like proper English and less like gibberish.13:12
timelessso it should ship overbudget and underpower13:12
jeremiahaha13:13
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timelessgan: you can grab a new .zip now :)13:13
timelessjeremiah: anyway, have you installed it, contemplated installing it, or...?13:14
timelessbtw, i'm sorry i didn't see you @fosdem13:14
jeremiahtimeless: Have not installed it, but will install it and take a look13:14
timelessi could have given you a demo :)13:14
jeremiahtimeless: Yeah, me too.13:14
timelessanyway, are you using en-US or en-GB right now?13:14
timelessif you're using US, you'll just need to reboot13:14
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, you order your N810 yet?13:14
jeremiahtimeless: Yep, US13:15
timelessok13:15
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: I asked for one, I am not sure of the status13:15
timelessanyway, basically, if you're ever silly enough to try to uninstall the package13:15
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jeremiahI suppose I should go out and buy one ASAP. :)13:15
timelessyou'll find your UI has no real 'words'13:15
timelessthe reason is that i'm using Replaces because of the way the packages are designed13:16
timelessin Diablo, each app has one package for all localizations13:16
GeneralAntillestimeless, if the packaging can't be fixed, maybe it'd be easier to install it as a separate locale?13:16
timelessand I'm only shipping enus, not the other 15 locales13:16
timelessgan: nope :)13:16
timelessdefinitely not easier13:16
timelesslocales are disasters as is13:16
timelessi could make a thing which creates a backup in a preinst stage13:16
wazdGeneralAntilles: 99$ tegra mid is from the same story as 10$ notebook I think13:17
timelessand then when it uninstalls it could restore that13:17
GeneralAntillesI wonder if there'll be any proper Linux-support spillover from Android-support for Tegra.13:17
jeremiahtimeless: So you are not using po files?13:17
timelessjeremiah: um, not particularly relevant13:18
jeremiahokay13:18
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timelessinternally nokia uses .xml files and .po files and .dtd files and binary drops13:18
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timelesswhat's shipped to users are .xml files, .dtd files, and .mo files13:18
timelesssometimes we'll even ship a enGB file as enUS13:19
timelessjust to add insult to injoury13:19
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timelessbut the issue is that the package container has 16 locales13:19
timelessand as a vendor, i'm only vending a subset for each package13:19
jeremiahA subset of one or two languages . . .13:20
timeless1/1613:20
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timelesseventually localizers are free to try to get the other 15 right by starting w/ my locale and translating13:21
timelessbut before they do that13:21
timelesswe'd need to get this issue fixed13:21
RST38hGeneral,wazd: What is all this tlak about Tegra?13:21
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timelesswhile i am confident that my strings are better than what nokia ships13:21
timelessi can imagine another localizer doing something wrong and having a customer uninstall their package(s)13:21
* RST38h thought Tegra was experimental, no connection to reality yet13:21
GeneralAntillesRST38h, see Engadget.13:22
timelessif they uninstall them and end up w/ nothing (or something indistiguishable from it), then the customer is in trouble13:22
GeneralAntillesNothings changed, really.13:22
jeremiahtimeless: right13:22
* timeless ponders13:22
timelessgan, so the sound chooser says 'Select sound'13:23
timelesssomeone suggested 'Select a sound'13:23
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timelessgtk20-l10n-enus1/po/en_US.po:msgstr "Select A File"13:23
jeremiahtimeless: I'm going to need to take a closer look to see what is happening, I can't see the mechanism from the package side atm13:24
jeremiahLet me dig a little . . .13:24
* timeless eyes gtk askance13:24
timelessjeremiah: my guess is that Alternatives or whatever that thing is are what i need13:25
timelesslcars uses it to replace the nokia boot logo13:25
RST38hGeneral: Also, there are persistent rumors that NVidia is working on an x86 compatible chip13:25
* jeremiah looks at Alternatives indebian13:26
GeneralAntillesRST38h, so I've heard13:26
RST38hHTC Touch Pro 2...hmmmm...13:26
RST38hCan it run Unix?13:26
RST38hWait, Touch Diamond 2 is also using 800x480 display13:27
timelesshrm13:27
timelessgan?13:27
timelessany idea what13:27
timelessmsgid "ai_ti_select_location"13:27
timelessmsgstr "Select location"13:27
timelessmsgid "ai_ia_select_location"13:27
timelessmsgstr "Select location for application"13:27
timelessare for?13:27
RST38hPoor Nokia13:27
timelessoh13:28
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timelessthat's select-menu-location13:28
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timelesswhich doesn't wfm in ham in Mer13:28
jeremiahtimeless: This URL might be useful if you want to use "Alternatives" http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/9113:28
jeremiahBut I am not sure it addresses your issue13:29
qwerty12At a guess, dpkg-divert?13:29
jeremiahAh, replacing files with dpkg-divert?13:30
GeneralAntillesI hope this isn't totally ignored for Fremantle: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=382213:30
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qwerty12I've never actually used it so I don't know the specifics but it seems to keep the original files :)13:30
GeneralAntillesI'd just as soon see select-menu-location gone.13:30
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jeremiahqwerty12: It shouldn't actually. If I remember correctly. I used it once a while back, a bit of a hack.13:31
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jeremiahWhat happens is that dpkg refuses to install the package if it writes over a specific type of file,  you have to tell it that you want to do that.13:32
qwerty12ah :/13:32
timelessjeremiah: so, dpkg-divert sounds interesting13:33
timelessbut um13:33
timelessit'd help if someone provided a real example13:34
jeremiahYeah, how does it address _your_ issue?13:34
jeremiahBoth these steps can be achieved with one command. For example assume we wish to replace the gcc command to cause it to add "-O2" to all compilation jobs we'd run the following command as root:13:34
jeremiahdpkg-divert --add --rename --divert /usr/bin/gcc.real /usr/bin/gcc13:35
jeremiahSo if you have to change XML files or whatnot, you can use a call to dpkg-divert in your debian rules file13:35
jeremiahdpkg-divert --add --rename --divert /usr/bin/gcc.real /usr/bin/gcc13:36
jeremiahSorry,13:36
jeremiahhttp://www.debian-administration.org/articles/11813:36
jeremiah^^ A useful link13:36
timelesshttp://pastebin.mozilla.org/62504613:37
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timelessjeremiah: sorry, i need instructions in the form of cookie cutter DEBIAN/files13:37
timelessnot random commands a hypothetical expert end user could run13:38
timelessi'm someone who doesn't care13:38
timelessand the localizers who will follow in my footsteps will care even less :)13:38
timelessif we can't fill in a blank, it won't happen :)13:38
jeremiahRight.13:38
timelessgan: i'm changing Select location* => Select menu*13:39
timelessbecause 'location' has other meanings13:39
timelessand it's totally stupid here13:39
timelessyeah, ok13:40
timelessthis is almost doable13:40
timelesswonderful13:40
timelessi need 4 files13:40
timeless{pre,post}{inst,rm}13:40
timelesshttp://timeless.justdave.net/maemo/dpkg-divert-demo/DEBIAN/13:42
timelessi'll use that as a starting point13:42
jeremiahI'll check that out.13:42
timelessthere are source debs for my packages somewhere13:43
timelessif you could try to put together a demo for one of them13:43
timelesspreferably such that i can easily c+p for the other 63 packages13:43
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timelessthat'd be great13:43
timelesswe're really talking about ~64 packages13:43
jeremiahtimeless: I am happy to work on that today.13:43
timelessso things should be *dead simple*13:43
timelessotherwise, => no go13:43
timelesshaving to s/r lots of files is fail13:43
timelessthanks13:43
timelessanyway, enjoy the strings13:44
jeremiahs/r ? Do you mean substitute remove?13:44
timelessif you wnat bleeding, gan can share 0.1.2pre's url13:44
timelesssearch/replace13:44
jeremiahah13:44
jeremiahCan you fire off an email to jeremiah@maemo.org so we can also continue off of IRC?13:44
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timelE61isp3000 @ lunch?13:45
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jeremiahMmmm lunch!13:46
jeremiahI am going to get some for myself. :)13:46
X-FadeGood idea.13:47
* aquatix already had some13:48
aquatixenjoy!13:48
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wazdmaking favorite rock songs as alarm was really bad idea13:51
wazdJust listened to it and kept sleeping :)13:52
wazdHave to get some uber-thrash russian pop13:52
qwerty12Next tablet should come with a shock prodder13:52
* GeneralAntilles just listens to the radio.13:52
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wazdqwerty12: fire alarm horn :)13:53
qwerty12hehe, probably have the same effect as the rest of my family wake up to beat the shit out of me :P13:53
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wazdWhat you will see next from Maemo 5 is the complete alpha SDK with the UI framework, but not the lead device.14:20
wazdgoddamn14:20
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Jaffawazd: where did you read that?14:21
wazdhttp://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=264787#post26478714:21
JaffaAh cool.14:22
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wazdWell, I still wait for maemo 5 ui tomorrow)14:28
GeneralAntillesDon't hold your breath.14:28
wazdgoddamn!14:28
wazdScrew you guys, I'm going home(14:28
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: One should never hold their breath for one day ;)14:29
GeneralAntillesYeah, we suck!14:29
X-FadeNo matter what is announced the next day. Or not..14:29
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, well, you never know, there's always the chance you could end up breaking a world record.14:29
wazdI'm tired of waiting (14:29
GeneralAntilleswazd, STFU.14:29
GeneralAntillesI've been waiting since 2007. :P14:29
GeneralAntillesI was expecting an OMAP3 tablet when the _N810_ was announced. . . .14:30
wazdGeneralAntilles: hah)14:30
* Jaffa wants new toys14:31
GeneralAntillesJaffa, at least you have an N810.14:31
wazdGeneralAntilles: I want to make software, even thoug World of Goo is awesome game)14:31
GeneralAntilles2 years. . . .14:31
GeneralAntillesToo goddamn long.14:31
GeneralAntilleswazd, why is that relevant? It's awesome, so you clearly can't make software? :P14:32
wazdGeneralAntilles: well, I need guidelines)14:32
wazdGeneralAntilles: Design without guidelines suck14:33
GeneralAntilleswazd, still don't see where World of Goo is relevant. :P14:33
GeneralAntillesYeah, Nokians keep saying to not wait for Nokia te get started.14:33
GeneralAntillesBut I agree with you, wazd, working without guidelines sucks.14:33
wazdGeneralAntilles: I want to make software even while playing World of Goo )14:33
wazdBTW it's not so cool to play with touchpad :(14:34
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GeneralAntillesF1 should just give up on trying to keep costs down.14:35
GeneralAntillesThey need 1600HP turbo-charged engines and enough downforce to corner at 8G.14:35
johnxyeah, read the Nokia MWC on the bus :/14:35
GeneralAntillesCrippling the cars just makes them more boring.14:36
GeneralAntillesGlad to see the grooves are gone, though.14:36
johnxrally is where it's at anyways, but WRC is screwing that up lately :/14:36
Stskeepsjohnx: forgot to upload src packages14:36
johnxme?14:36
Stskeepsdone thst now :P14:36
Stskeepsyeah14:37
johnxah, crap. I forgot to run import on the server14:37
johnxsorry about that ...14:37
GeneralAntillesjohnx, ALMS and *TCC is where it's at for me.14:38
oliis maemo livecd alive project?14:38
Stskeepsjohnx: is finw14:38
Stskeepsi screwed up hal detection too14:38
johnxworking as a team! :D14:39
Stskeepshehe14:39
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GeneralAntillesE55 looks nice15:14
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b-man15:19
timelE61i15:26
qwerty12_N80015:27
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GeneralAntillesEither my client's broken or you're just assholes.15:29
GeneralAntilles~ping15:29
infobot~pong15:29
GeneralAntillesJust assholes.15:29
* Jaffa was wondering that15:29
timelE61i well, my irc client rarely works15:31
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b-maninfobot: burn himself15:33
* infobot pours gasoline all over himself, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze15:33
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b-manhehe15:34
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tekojoX-Fade: ping15:38
X-Fadetekojo: pong.15:38
b-manpritty quite today :)15:39
tekojoX-Fade: the training materials15:39
X-Fadetekojo: Will coach dneary..15:40
tekojoCoach or just give a hand15:40
dnearyHi all15:40
tekojodneary: there you are :-)15:40
X-Fadetekojo: Well he's the docmaster, so he should be able to do it anyway ;)15:40
dnearyCoach is fine :) I'd like to understand better what's happening here15:40
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X-Fadetekojo: So coaching seems to be the better option.15:41
* X-Fade is being swamped with requests on his first work day after holiday ;)15:41
tekojosimply just moving the existing stuff to an archive folder and moving the new stuff to a visible place15:41
tekojoX-Fade: which reminds me to send you an e-mail about server logs and statistics15:42
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* X-Fade runs ...15:44
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dnearyOK - so, I want to be clear what I need to do before I break anything...15:45
dnearyCreate a new folder, development/training/chinook15:45
X-Fadedneary: I'll walk you through it, but first let's do the voting.15:46
tekojojust training/chinook15:46
dnearyMove everything from the folder development/training to development/training/chinook15:46
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timelE61iandre?15:46
tekojoor training/archive if you prefer15:46
timelE61iDo you file bugs about beagle/tracker?15:46
andre__timelE61i, yepp?15:46
X-Fadedneary: Because I don't have time to fix it if you break the site..15:46
tekojoOops, it is development/training...15:46
dnearyX-Fade: You want to get the database up & going first? I have an hour or two of scripting to do for that15:46
andre__timelE61i, means?15:47
dnearytekojo: Yes - not development/documentation/training :)15:47
timelE61iThere's a thing called "xesan" it's some sort of f plugin15:47
timelE61iXesam auto index disabled. Click to active.15:47
dnearyThe things I don't know how to do are: (1) moving everything to a sub-folder and (2) copying the new docs to the vacated folder15:47
timelE61iIs what i get when i hover over it15:48
timelE61iWhich is cute, but wrong :)15:48
dnearyXesam is the desktop search module15:48
dnearyOh - you know that15:48
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timelE61iWell, i wouldn't say i know anything15:48
* dneary realises that timelE61i is probably timeless15:48
tekojodneary: yes that's timeless15:49
dnearyOK - so let's reach agreement15:49
dnearyI was first going to move the documents, then set up the election15:49
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dnearyBoth probably need to be done today15:50
dnearyBut I definitely need Niels to do the election15:50
dnearyX-Fade: Is there any way you can give me an access to that mysql database, I'd be able to get by on my own?15:50
JaffaIt sounds like there are still lots of karma bugs outstanding, despite them being repriotisied in the sprint meeting15:50
* timelE61i tries to use google code from a computer which crawls slower than an n80015:51
b-manlol15:53
floriantimelE61i: the e71 is a good replacement :-)15:53
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dnearyOK - logged in to maintenance.maemo.org15:54
dnearytekojo: That's the URL for the docs importer15:55
tekojodneary: https://maintenance.maemo.org/midcom-exec-fi.hut.htmlimport/import-directory.php15:56
dnearyYeah, I'm there15:56
X-Fadetekojo: Please.. private messages ;)15:56
tekojodneary: Oops, just gathering my stuff, need to get hom15:56
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dnearySo - I think that this step has been done already15:56
dnearyThat page is for uploading .tars of HTML pages, right?15:57
tekojodneary: both yes15:57
tekojodneary: now it is just moving everything where they belong15:57
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tekojodneary: and probably something huge, which I have overlooked, but X-Fade will know15:58
tekojodneary: need to run15:58
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timelE61iandre i filed browser-extension-for-beagle issue 516:09
andre__...but not in bugs.maemo.org .16:12
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timelE61iyEah, i decided i'd crawl through code.google.com16:16
timelE61iI have some nitro bugs to file :)16:17
timelE61iYou can import those :)16:17
andre__err from where to where?16:17
timelE61itHey fixed a bug i complained about (Ok v OK) by fixing the enGB po file16:17
GeneralAntillesI wonder if maemo.nokia.com is ever gonna go live.16:18
timelE61iWhich doesn't help me since i run enUS16:18
andre__who is "they"?16:18
timelE61iThey=nokia maemo sdk people16:18
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GeneralAntillesThe evil monsters under your bed.16:18
timelE61iFrom bugs to nokia's bz16:18
timelE61i3floors down actually16:18
RST38hGeneral: There is already a consumer site for the tablets, so why not?16:18
timelE61iBut they're all away for the week16:18
timelE61iRst: tableteer?16:19
RST38hFew DNS changes and it is there16:19
GeneralAntillesRST38h, it seems like they might be waiting on Fremantel.16:19
GeneralAntilless/tel/tle/16:19
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: RST38h, it seems like they might be waiting on Fremantle.16:19
StskeepsFermantle? :P16:19
GeneralAntillesor maybe this is blocking: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Texts_for_maemo.nokia.com16:19
RST38hGeneral: Who knows what they are waiting for... May simply have to do with the lack of spare hands16:19
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GeneralAntillesThe "What is Maemo?" section is stupid.16:21
johnxah! that would be the prime example of how to make 'Maemo' more confusing than it actually is16:22
timelE61iwhat is maemo?16:23
Stskeepsjesus, why does my builds break so badly today..16:23
StskeepstimelE61i: beats me16:23
Stskeepswhat is the Maemo Platform?16:23
b-manStskeeps: problems with 0.8?16:23
GeneralAntillesAccording to the proposed text in the wiki: "Maemo is more than a software development platform. Maemo is an open collaboration between a major corporation and a generous group of volunteer programmers, hackers, designers, and users. While Maemo is a system with Linux at its heart, it is also an organization consisting of both people and code. With and open heart -- and an open mind -- Maemo operates freely and unhindered."16:23
qwerty12_N800~wikipedia Maemo16:23
RST38hGeneral: judging from the texts at wiki, it will end up being a mirror of maemo.org16:24
Stskeepsb-man: nah, just bad setup16:24
infobotAt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maemo (URL), Wikipedia explains: "'Maemo' may refer to: * Maemo Platform, Nokia's software and development platform. * Maemo (operating system), the operating system for Nokia Internet Tablets. "16:24
GeneralAntillesRST38h, a software platform being a mirror of a website?16:24
timelE61iuNhindered?16:24
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Stskeepsneat, im getsies a 77016:25
timelE61iEmphAsis added by phone...16:25
b-manStskeeps: nice16:25
GeneralAntilles"Maemo" is most certainly not an organization. . . .16:28
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RST38hGeneral: [carefully, as if talking to a child] By "maemo.org" I meant a website that come up when you type maemo.org into your browser address bar and press enter16:28
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, the sarcasm is a nice touch.16:29
GeneralAntillesYou clearly meant maemo.nokia.com, while I had moved on to Maemo.16:30
GeneralAntillesAnyway, what's there on the wiki was mostly contributed by Tim and Quim.16:31
GeneralAntillesSo it doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with what the real website will look like.16:31
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* Stskeeps curses loudly and restarts imaging process16:35
johnxwhat happened?16:35
StskeepsNFS stale handle i think, and it thought the 0.8 directory was somewhere else16:36
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johnxsad16:36
johnxnever was a fan of NFS16:36
qwerty12_N800How far had you gotten up to?16:36
Stskeepsjohnx: shipping without HAL detection of RX-44 keyboard, but it can be enabled with a simple setxkbmap command16:37
Stskeepsand also, there is something i found..16:37
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: can you mer-ize https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/?root=maemo-xkb-plugi at some point?16:38
timelE61ijohnx: smb+zfs :)16:38
Stskeepsjohnx: well in this case it is NFS from within a qemu so16:39
johnxtimelE61i, sshfs wins16:39
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: it is a XKB keyboard changer with a CPA16:39
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: sure16:39
dnearyHi all16:39
qwerty12_N800hi16:39
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timelE61iJohnx: support on w32 ?16:40
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johnxtimelE61i, unimportant16:40
* Stskeeps uses smb+zfs16:41
Stskeeps(at home)16:41
johnxwin32 can act as the 'server' for sshfs16:41
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qwerty12_N800there's a free equivalent of sshfs for w32 somewhere (as pointed out to me by glass)16:41
* timeless tries to figure out how to update swift(2)16:41
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johnxany scp or sftp client wouldn't be bad16:42
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Stskeepsjohnx: on x86 it dies in FBW btw, with only 64mb ram16:42
Stskeepsno idea why though16:43
johnxreally?16:43
johnxmadness16:43
Stskeepsyes16:43
Stskeepsi tested in vmware16:43
johnxdies with OOM or something else?16:43
Stskeepsnot sure16:43
johnxah16:43
timelE61ifbw?16:44
johnxfirst-boot-wizard16:44
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Stskeepsin style with HIM, HIME, HIMF and HDE, etc :P16:45
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Stskeepsi wonder if there is any of the maemo- apps that shorts to MILF..16:46
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, if not, it's time to make one. ;)16:46
johnxmaemo idyllic lifelike furries16:46
GeneralAntillesMaemo-I*-L*-Framework16:46
johnxI = internet16:47
johnxno choice there16:47
GeneralAntillesLocation?16:47
Stskeepsmaemo internet layout framework16:47
GeneralAntillesMaybe we should rename AGPS. ;)16:48
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dnearyInstant16:48
dnearyID16:48
johnxmaybe L = liken16:48
johnxor lichen16:49
dnearyIM16:49
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GeneralAntillesInternet Lichen sound horrifying16:51
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GeneralAntillesMaybe we should have those grow on the desktop if you don't care for your tablet enough.16:51
RST38hit already grows all over facebook16:52
timelE61iso...16:53
timelE61iIf i only use wifi basestations to find out where i am16:53
Stskeepsmm?16:53
timelE61i(i.e. I have an n800 w/o bt-gps, plus mer)16:53
timelE61iIs that still AGPS?16:54
Stskeepshehe, good question16:54
Stskeepsisnt AGPS just the almanac stuff?16:54
* timelE61i shrugs16:54
GeneralAntillesNo, that's not AGPS16:54
timelE61ipretend i know nothing about gps16:54
johnxthe A is there. but not the 'GPS' :)16:55
aquatixhm, that E55 phone sure looks pretty16:55
timelE61iPretend that a "location" library wants to satisfy my usecase16:55
GeneralAntillesSkyhook is the sort of thing that does that.16:55
GeneralAntillesaquatix, yeah, it looks quite nice.16:55
GeneralAntillesI want a small, thin phone.16:56
timelE61ioH, i'm sure it's possible16:56
GeneralAntillesUnfortunately the NAM version probably wont ship until 2010. :roll:16:56
GeneralAntillestimelE61i, I don't know if there's a proper "name" for that sort of location service, though.16:56
timelE61iNam?16:56
qwerty12_N800North American16:56
GeneralAntillesNorth American16:56
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GeneralAntillesMaybe WPS (WiFi Positioning System)16:57
timelE61iwhat if my n800 is usb tethered w/ wifi off? :)16:57
johnxit's just "location service"16:58
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timelE61iHeck, what if my mer is running my laptop w/ ethernet16:58
johnxthere are a couple abstract libraries for this sort of thing (or so I thought)16:58
timelE61i(it is, does, etc.)16:58
timelE61iThere are16:58
timelE61iAnyway, i'd assert that the name should handle these scenarios16:58
johnxwhat name?16:59
timelE61ithis maemo i l f17:00
johnxah17:00
timelE61iwhich has an NSFW abbr17:00
johnxgeoclue is the library17:00
timelE61iSo please XXX me17:00
timelE61iErr fix17:01
johnxhttp://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/01/location-awareness-comes-to-the-linux-platform.ars17:01
GeneralAntillesNokia is pushing their own competitor to GeoClue, apparently.17:01
* johnx sighs17:01
timelE61iprobably neoclue :)17:01
johnxI hope they have absolutely bulletproof reasoning why geoclue can't work for them17:01
GeneralAntillesDoes anybody think the 2nd paragraph here is mostly Apple-spam?17:02
GeneralAntilleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_5800_XpressMusic#History17:02
timelE61inokia exactly obfuscated clue17:02
RST38hjohnx: they don't17:02
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timelE61iNih? :)17:02
RST38hGeneral: Doesn't wiki allow to find who exactly added it?17:02
GeneralAntilleshttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=203717:02
johnxGeneralAntilles, eh. doesn't seem to be really17:02
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I'm not sure why it took the iPhone to demonstrate that Nokia didn't have a touchscreen phone.17:03
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GeneralAntillesI'd also say the bit about S90 misses Maemo.17:04
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johnxit was the big event that year in smartphones, like it or not17:04
dnearyHi17:04
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I don't disagree, I'm just not sure any of that is really encyclopedic.17:04
RST38hMaemo never ran on a phone17:04
johnxhi dneary17:04
dnearyTwo questions:17:04
RST38hS90 did17:04
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, but it's a platform, and Nokia owns it.17:04
johnxGeneralAntilles, I'm not sure an article on a phone is entirely encyclopedic sooo...17:04
dneary1. In the maemo users database, there are some accounts that don't have a creation date associated, but clearly the people involved are old-timers17:05
GeneralAntillesThe migration to Garage may have left some weirdness.17:05
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timelE61ipEople remember s90?17:07
timelE61iWhy?17:07
dneary(eg. gustavotiberio)17:07
GeneralAntillesdneary, let's just assume no creation date accounts are older than 3 months.17:08
X-Fadeprobably older than 3 years ;)17:09
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aquatixtimelE61i: i remember17:13
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Jaffadneary/GeneralAntilles/X-Fade: lardman|afk makes the point very clearly - if there are big problems with karma, that's a bit of a big problem.17:20
dnearyJaffa: I agree17:21
dnearyI don't think that there are big problems with karma, but there are clearly some small ones, to say the least17:21
dnearyX-Fade: Your account doesn't have any creation date :)17:22
X-Fadedneary: All the l337 guys don't have one ;)17:22
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Jaffadneary: indeed, hopefully they're localised and specific. But progress seems... slow.17:24
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GeneralAntillesmaemo-community needs to be indexed. . . .17:25
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lcukoffer a karma boost to the developer who implements the best karma calc17:25
JaffaOr fix's Andrea's and Simon's karma calcs17:26
lcuk*must include questionairre for girlfriends partners to confirm karma ratings17:26
lcukthat as well lol17:26
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Jaffalcuk: different kind o' karma ;-)17:26
lcuki thought there were many facets to karma, i have been working on my gf for years in the hope of improving my maemo.org karma rating17:27
* lcuk is devistated17:27
lcukdevastated as well :$17:28
lcukis(seplling==crap)karma--;17:28
johnxhow does your wife feel about you spending so much time with your gf?17:28
mgedmins/is/if/17:29
lcuki spend equal times with them both  :D17:29
RST38hjohnx: it is the same girl most likely17:30
lcuk(and the wife as well)17:30
mgedminboth girlfriends and a wife?17:30
mgedminthat's three total17:30
lcukyeah, now you know why im so tired all the time17:30
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johnxlcuk, from telling so many lies? :P17:31
lcukwhatever gives you that impression?17:31
* lcuk will probably die later when tracy reads this :S :'( 17:32
johnx:)17:32
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JaffaMrs Jaffa's not been on IRC for, oooh, ten years or so. I'm probably safe :)17:33
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lcuktracy keeps nicking one of the nokias here, i tell her she should really have an account, but then i realise she will probably code me under the table17:33
RST38hJaffa: [state-of-factly] this conversation is being logged.17:34
lcukRST38h, mrs jaffa does not know that jaffa is a pseudonym and he wears an orange mask when in irc17:34
aquatixJaffa: your girl has been on irc?17:35
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* Stskeeps 's has too.17:35
aquatixmine hasn't17:35
Jaffaaquatix: aye.17:35
aquatixshe has a xubuntu laptop and is loving it though :)17:35
* Jaffa and Mrs Jaffa wouldn't have met if she hadn't been on IRC (a friend of mine was checking who else from warwick.ac.uk was on IRC and semi-stalking them, Mrs Jaffa was then initiated into a Warwick talker and that's how we met)17:37
* Stskeeps was fixing another girls computer and his fiancee asked if i could fix her computer, .. and one thing went to another17:37
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* lcuk stares blankly at the strange gender mix in that comment17:39
RST38hSts: so she made th initial advance? =)17:39
StskeepsRST38h: yes, but admittedly i had initially tried to talk to her while being slightly drunk and not knowing who she was some month before17:39
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* Jaffa got a (semi-)date through fixing a friend of a friends computer; just before meeting the missus. So, on the whole, I suppose no matter how much I hate computers, I've still got a net +ve.17:40
lcukbbl17:41
* aquatix has a highschool sweetheart17:41
aquatixthose exist apparently :)17:41
JaffaAnd you're a dirty old 30 year old? ;-)17:41
aquatixha17:42
aquatixi mean we've been together since17:42
* Stskeeps is talking to close to zero of highschool mates17:42
* Jaffa grins17:42
aquatixJaffa: and i'm nearing 30 indeed17:42
aquatixStskeeps: yeah, don't see many of them either17:42
aquatixlike, one daily and one every so many months17:42
aquatixthat's about it17:42
* Jaffa 's next birthday is the last big one for a while: 2^5 :)17:43
Stskeepson the other hand i move 130km away..17:43
Macergod i hate setting up a new fbsd box17:43
aquatixi turned 0x1B this year17:44
aquatixMacer: apt-get install debian17:44
* aquatix runs17:44
Macerhaha17:44
Maceri'll probably put debian on the artigo when it shows up17:44
Maceri wanted to see how well the artigo works as a desktop linux box17:45
RST38hJaffa: Jesus didn't make it to 34, btw17:45
* RST38h always has kind words of encouragement17:46
GeneralAntillesSounds like a threat.17:46
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Veggen Jaffa: I sent a cake invitation at work, saying I had a "birthday, round in both the 5- and 7-digit system"17:46
VeggenJaffa: That really separated the geeks from the rest ;)17:46
aquatixRST38h: so, you encourage nailing Jaffa?17:47
aquatix*crickets*17:48
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johnxStskeeps, gotcha beat :)17:49
dnearyFor info: 3 people had karma > 25 and an account created less than 3 months ago17:49
dnearyI think I'll mentioon that on the list.17:49
dnearyLater17:49
Macerwhat is the best way to tar up /home and keep all the perms and .files ?17:49
Macersomething that i can move over to another box and just extract and be done with it17:49
johnxMacer, sudo tar cvf my-home.tar /home17:50
dnearyMacer: as root: tar -p -s17:50
johnxmake sure you're not in /home17:50
Stskeepsjohnx: mm?17:50
johnxStskeeps, I moved a bit farther from my highschool :)17:50
Macerand if i were in home wouldn't tar cvf old.home.tar . work also?17:50
Stskeepsjohnx: hehe, true17:51
Macerso i could just copy it to the new /home and extract it from there?17:51
dnearyMacer: Or use rsync17:51
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johnxMacer, sure. why did you ask if you knew the answer? :P17:51
* johnx also married his highschool sweetheart...only took ~9 years...17:52
aquatixjohnx: ha17:52
aquatixjohnx: i will take about 11 i think17:52
aquatixhm, no, that's already in July :/17:52
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* Stskeeps has two year day with the fiancee but we are apart physically today sadly.17:54
Macerjohnx: was just confirming ;)17:54
johnxMacer, only thing is that if your version of tar is dumb it might have issues17:54
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Macerdneary: because i want to make compressed backups of user home dirs just in case17:54
johnxyou are tar'ing up the directory you're making the tar in...17:54
dnearyMacer: rsync can do this17:55
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johnxStskeeps, I know the feeling. been there many times17:55
jeremiahTo whom does the intebration@maemo.org email address map to?17:55
dnearyrsync doesn't *have* to be remote17:55
Macerdneary: i'll look into rsync once i get the box up and running ;)17:55
dnearyIt can be local17:55
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, no idea.17:55
dnearyIn which case it'll work like tar -p -s17:55
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, supposedly it's the SDK team.17:55
jeremiahSorry, intergration@maemo.org (not intebration) and not inebriation17:55
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GeneralAntillesBut I've sent several emails to it with no response.17:56
jeremiahThe SDK team, okay.17:56
X-FadeLet me check who is in the alias ;)17:56
dnearyjeremiah: Did you have a lot of beer over the weekend or something?17:56
jeremiahheh17:56
dnearyintebration looks like inebriation17:56
jeremiahDid someone say beer?17:56
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, see: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=392317:56
GeneralAntilleser, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=392217:56
Macerdneary: why would you use local rsync when you can just tar it?17:57
jeremiahSo intergration@maemo.org disappears into Nokia HQ?17:57
jeremiahCan we add a CC to that?17:57
dnearyMacer: Because rsync can do cool stuff like sync up afterwards with only diffs17:57
jeremiahAre we dealing with exim as MTA? Or something more exotic?17:57
X-FadeHmm kaltsi is in that alias too?17:57
dnearySo you can do your back-up as a daily cron job, for example17:58
johnxMacer, faster, easier access to files17:58
dnearyAnd it handles permissions more easily17:58
jeremiahplus you can do rsync over ssh!17:58
jeremiahFTW17:58
Macerdneary: ah. i see. well.. i will start setting that up once i get a chance to do so17:58
GeneralAntillesDid we ever get the alarmd sources?17:58
Macerjeremiah: that just sold me haha17:58
* mgedmin wonders if people intentionally spell inteRgration with that extra R17:58
jeremiah:)17:58
Macerbut right now i have to migrate a home dir over from the fileserver to a VM17:59
jeremiahmgedmin: Nice catch.17:59
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: they lost them, but i have seen them in SDKs..17:59
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Maceri'm trying to isolate the fileserver as much as i can17:59
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Maceri had my shell box home dir on it.. so i'm trying to not do that anymore... people who use shells don't need 5TB of home space haha17:59
jeremiahDoes anything happen when you change the urgency of a package?18:00
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jeremiahObviously it does in debian,18:00
jeremiahbut does the maemo build server notice and react?18:00
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jeremiahHmm, this scares me:  Changed the license from GPL to Nokia modified MIT18:01
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jeremiahOne cannot change the license. :-/18:01
jeremiah(This is from the changelog in maemopad)18:02
dphil314not by altering the install script?18:02
jeremiahIf software is licensed under the GPL, you cannot change it. Nor can you change the license of derived works.18:02
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Jaffajeremiah: The (c) owner can, surely?18:02
jeremiahJaffa: If they are the copyright owner, yes.18:03
jeremiahCopyright owners can do as they please.18:03
RST38hjeremiah: you can change the license on thenext version18:03
jeremiahRST38h: Not on derived works.18:04
jeremiahYou cannot bump the version of libc and just change the license.18:04
RST38hjeremiah: correct18:04
Macerwonder how well tar by itself compresses nowadays18:04
johnxMacer, not at all18:04
RST38hbut maemopad is not derived from anything, is it?18:04
qwerty12Macer, tar doesn't compress18:04
jeremiahYou cannot link to a GPL'd .so file without using the GPL18:04
Macerwow really?18:05
Maceri always thought it did :)18:05
qwerty12yep, it's why it's used with bzip2 or gzip18:05
RST38hjeremiah: libc is LGPLed afaik18:05
johnxMacer, it's a feature, not a bug18:05
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Maceri honestly didn't know that18:05
RST38hjeremiah: You are mistaking LGPL for GPL18:05
johnxtar = tape archive18:05
johnxit's just for putting things in a nice order and giving them a minimal header18:05
jeremiahRST38h: No, don't think so.18:05
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Maceri see :)18:06
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Macerhonestly all these years i thought it did some sort of compression18:06
RST38hjeremiah: http://www.gnu.org/software/libtool/manual/libc/Copying.html#Copying18:06
jeremiahMacer: tar just stands for Tape ARchive18:06
RST38hjeremiah: questions?18:06
Macernever really used it much18:06
Maceri get to find out in a minute of esxi can use an external usb hd18:07
dphil314tar.gz compresses18:07
Macerthis should be fun18:07
dphil314a tar within a gzip18:07
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timelE61isO, it just occurred to me that naming two boxes "swift" and sitting them next to eachother isn't a good idea18:08
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jeremiahRST38h: I think you are confused. I specifically said that you cannot change the GPL.18:08
Macerafter tweaking my esxi box a bit it is running great18:08
Maceri guess you are supposed to actually admin such things haha18:09
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jeremiahRST38h: Furthermore, you are referring to an outdated version of the LGPL, please read: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/lesser.html18:11
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qwerty12Stskeeps, for mer, can I put waitdbus from osso-af-tools in its own package, like you have done for fb-progress?18:12
timelE61ijeremiah: how goes it?18:12
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timelE61iAnd have you met mxr.maemo.org?18:12
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* timelE61i is trying to get swift2 staged enough to try getting fremantle xref'd18:13
jeremiahtimelE61i: Heh, it goes well18:13
jeremiahI have not met mxr.maemo.org, but I might surf over there now.18:13
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timelE61ifor public things it can help chasing down debian/control bits and their origins18:16
RST38hjeremiah: I am referring to the glibc library that maemopad dynamically links to18:16
timelE61irst: glibc has some screwy exclusion18:16
RST38hjeremiah: glibc is licensed under lgpl and and main difference of lgpl vs gpl is that lgpl allows dynamic linking of non-gpled code18:16
jeremiahRST38h: Which LGPL license does it in fact ship with? Which specific version?18:17
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RST38hjeremiah: I guess different glibcs ship with different versions of lgpl18:18
RST38hbut they should ALL allow linking of proprietary code18:18
jeremiahRST38h: Yeah, and the updated LGPL is the same as GPL v318:18
jeremiahGPL v3 is much more specific about what you can link to.18:19
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RST38hjeremiah: go to your own url and read 4.d.118:21
Stskeepsqwerty12: go ahead18:22
RST38has opposed to 4.d.0 of course18:22
RST38hSo, even if it is v3, it is still an LGPL license all right18:22
qwerty12Stskeeps, ta18:22
jeremiahRST38h: Will do - I am not a layer though.18:22
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jeremiahRST38h: The problem is this line in the begining;18:24
Macera LGPL.. "an" comes before words with vowels18:24
jeremiahThis license is a set of additional permissions added to version 3 of the GNU General Public License."18:24
Macer:)18:24
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jeremiahSo the modern LGPL is an "additional set of permissions"18:25
RST38hMacer: [yawn] try to spell L G P L18:25
Macerhaha18:25
RST38hjeremiah: see permission 4.d.018:25
jeremiahBut, like I said, I am not a laweer18:25
jeremiahOr a layer.18:25
RST38hAny more pedants in the room? =)18:25
jeremiahOr a loafer18:25
jeremiahPendants?18:26
Maceracronyms are based on the pronounciation of the words18:26
Macernot on the spelling of the acronym18:26
jeremiahRST38h: So you are saying this is a "combined" work?18:27
GeneralAntillesObviously the only answer is to sue Nokia and see what they say. . . .18:27
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MacerGeneralAntilles: hahaha18:27
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: It gets a bit tricky.18:27
Maceri agree18:27
jeremiahThey might not sue Nokia, but they might try to sue Maemo18:28
Macerjeremiah: which is why nokia has $50,000,000 set aside each year for lawyers18:28
RST38hjeremiah: see item 018:28
RST38hjeremiah: it defines what a combined work is18:28
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, Maemo is Nokia.18:28
RST38hFrankly, I do not see what is the point in insisting that GLIBC is a full GPL lib18:29
jeremiahWell, there are clearly some questions here - you cannot change licenses.18:29
RST38hOk, let us say GLIBC is a full GPL lib. This effectively means that no commercial developer will EVER develop for Linux18:29
GeneralAntillesUnless you're the copyright owner, and isn't Nokia the copyright owner?18:29
Jaffajeremiah: If Nokia is the sole copyright owner of Maemopad (and I believe they are), they can - as you say18:29
jeremiahJaffa: Yes, but it relies on lots of other software18:29
jeremiahThat they do not have the licenses for18:30
Stskeepsdear god, a gpl discussion? :P18:30
jeremiahSo it is a "derived work"18:30
RST38hYou do not want commercial developers produce anything for Linux?18:30
* Stskeeps gets out the popcorn18:30
MacerStskeeps: i think it's more of an argument than a discussion18:30
Jaffajeremiah: but the source of Maemopad can be under any licence they like, as long as it's compatible with the licences of that which it's derived/merged/bundled/whatever18:30
StskeepsMacer: gpl discussions are always arguments..18:30
johnxStskeeps, heh. yup. make sure you have plenty. this could be an epic. maybe even a 3-parter with intermissions18:30
RST38hSts: our good friend jeremiah here (not a layer) insists that anyone linking against GLIBC is bound by the full GPL18:30
jeremiahRST38h: Obviously I most certainly do want that. This is why I think the license should remain GPL and not be switched.18:30
Macerhahaha18:30
* GeneralAntilles begins throwing the unpopped kernels at the bottom of the bag at Stskeeps.18:30
johnxRST38h, are you a lawyer?18:31
Maceruh oh18:31
RST38hjohnx: No, but I am an asshole. Isn't it sufficient?18:31
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StskeepsRST38h: except glibc is lgpl, which is a bit different..18:31
Stskeepsalso the system libraries exception yadda yadda18:31
jeremiahRST38h: Please do not put words in my mouth. That is not what I said.18:31
MacerStskeeps: don't feed them!18:31
RST38hSts: see discussion above18:31
jeremiahI hate this kind of discussion too, unfortunately you have to have it.18:32
RST38hWe don't.18:32
jeremiahI will take this offline now.18:32
johnxRST38h, lawyers are assholes with years of training. same relationship between masochists and professional skateboarders18:32
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, you get to watch Seinfeld over there?18:32
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: yes, but not these days18:32
RST38hjohnx: you don't need training to read a license18:32
GeneralAntilleshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Yada_Yada18:32
Macerseinfeld?18:32
johnxRST38h, and you don't need training to stand on a skateboard18:32
RST38hjohnx: obviously18:33
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i dunno if it is from seinfeld.. it just entered my vocabulary at some point18:33
Macerwas a good show i suppose.. never got into it much tho18:33
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, it's not, but the Seinfeld reference is quite funny.18:33
Macerhaha.. the yadda yadda one? :)18:33
GeneralAntillesMacer, that's sad.18:33
johnxRST38h, but standing on a skateboard does not make you a good skateboarder and reading a license does not mean you understand it18:33
Macerwhere he dates the girl and keeps saying it18:33
Macerthat was a pretty funny one18:34
GeneralAntillesAnti-Dentite18:34
PradeeptkHi guys, Is GtkStatusIcon working as expected on Maemo5, if not is there are work around18:34
RST38hjohnx: well, I hope we are not having a competition in understanding licenses :)18:34
Maceri think you're both wrong18:35
Macerbut that's just me18:35
johnxRST38h, that's what a 'discussion' (read: argument) about licenses *is*18:35
Macerrealistically the gpl and lgpl don't work18:35
Maceranybody who writes something can always just say that there is proprietary code and just release the opened code and keep the rest18:36
RST38hjohnx: it is kinda old argument, especially considering that lgpl allowing dynamic linking of proprietary code is a long known fact18:36
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StskeepsRST38h: i had several years of discussions if loaded .sos are "linking"18:36
Stskeepswhen the .sos are extensions18:36
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RST38hjohnx: I mean, we can reenforce it by rereading the license, but it is pointless18:36
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RST38hSts: Yes. That is dynamic linking.18:37
Stskeepsafter that i went for the bsd license on most of my stuff :P18:37
johnxRST38h, from a 3rd person perspective I think you and jeremiah were probably just having issues defining your terms and seeing eye to eye...which seems to be the end result of most amateurs discussing licenses18:37
MacerRST38h: then start taking companies to court because they didn't release the code which contained one line that was in some source that was under the gpl and not the lgpl? :)18:37
RST38hjohnx: Terms are defined in item #0 of LGPL18:37
Macerit's too much of a hassle. like a parking ticket.18:37
RST38hMacer: Yes, you can18:37
MacerRST38h: i am sure you can.. but is it worth it?18:38
RST38hMcer: But it has nothing to do with LGPL issue18:38
Macerthen the company will just say "ok. fuck you all then.. we will not use open software anymore."18:38
Macerthe end.18:38
johnxMacer, the reality is a lot more grey18:38
Macerrealistically the only people who would care would be open developers and tweakers18:38
Macerthe end users could care less about what kind of software is being used on something they like18:39
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Macerso you just lost .0001% of your base.. i think the company will survive :)18:39
johnxcompanies use open source because somehow they think it will 1) save them money or 2) make them money18:40
Maceri know. look at MS .. they're dying over there with all that closed source stuff18:40
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* Stskeeps hands out more popcorn18:41
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MacerStskeeps: =) wow.. it's easy to get sucked in isn't it?18:41
* johnx could really go for some18:41
Stskeepsbacon flavoured chips are nice too.18:42
Maceri'm going to make a pizza18:42
Macerhaha18:42
* johnx makes a tuna sammich18:42
johnxMacer, I concede the point. let's all start using MS products and let Linux die a slow death18:42
Macerjohnx: it's the opposite ;)18:42
Macerwe all use ms products and are allowing linux to live a slow life18:42
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Maceri'm just taking it from the perspective of business... if it becomes too much of a hassle.. and you have joe coder trying to sue you just because you wanted to keep something to yourselves for one reason or another...18:43
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Macerthen you just close shop and tell joe coder to go fuck himself .. make his own shit18:44
Macerbecause like i said.. you will not lose much of your base... joe coder and extreme tweaker are a very small portion of your market18:44
Macerthe rest are just the cattle18:44
GeneralAntillesOpen source seems to be making major gains in commercial software.18:44
johnxright, but the reality is that a company with that little commitment to open source will find one or another annoyance that stops them sooner or later18:44
dphil314most people in my IT dept don't know linux, they're all mcse18:44
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dphil314but they also get infested with viruses18:45
Macerjohnx: how much actual commercial open source stuff is out there that wasn't there already?18:45
johnxdphil314, your IT people are infested with viruses? how's the health plan?18:45
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dphil314i dunno, i'm a contractor18:45
Macerwhen you look at maemo.. it really is just the same old 10 yr old stuff :)18:45
johnxMacer, what does that even mean?18:45
Stskeepsdphil314: i had an argument with my brother that a CS degree was slightly more advanced than a mcse..18:46
Macerolder maybe18:46
Maceranyways.. i'm hungry... talk to you guys later18:47
dphil314just cooked pancakes18:47
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dphil314i'm able to run gtk programs in Xephyr outside the AF, but ab-sb-init.sh returns a bunch of errors: http://pastebin.ca/133907618:53
Stskeepsmaemo5 pre-alpha2?18:53
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Stskeepsor diablo18:53
dphil3144.118:53
dphil314diablo18:53
dphil314ubuntu intrepid18:53
dphil314maybe it's the virtualbox vm i'm running ubuntu in18:55
Stskeepsdphil314: those look fairly normal18:56
Stskeepsit is warnings, not errors..18:56
dphil314yes, the AF gui starts18:56
dphil314but SB doesn't return to the command prompt for me to execute the program ... maybe if i put in background18:57
Stskeepsyeah18:57
qwerty12just press enter and you get a shell, albeit with af printing its crap18:57
dphil314oh wait, it finally returned to the prompt18:58
dphil314and the gtk prog runs in the AF18:59
dphil314"woah ... i know kung fu"18:59
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GeneralAntilleslol . . . itT19:03
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johnxthe mwc thread?19:04
GeneralAntillesjohnx, among other things.19:04
dneary(Just wondering: I see Lardman at 369 karma points19:05
dnearyIs that less than he should have?19:05
dnearyJaffa: Any ideas?19:05
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wazdI think my current Mer UI mockup sucks19:05
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Stskeepsgot a new better one? ;)19:05
GeneralAntillesYou, we know you suck wazd. :P19:05
dphil314i a user collects false karma, will he pay for it in the next life?19:05
thopiekar1hey19:06
wazdGeneralAntilles: shut your mouth, fatass © xD19:06
wazdStskeeps: no, but I have some ideas19:06
Stskeepsalright19:06
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wazdStskeeps: work on 480 adaptation told me that it sucks )19:06
dphil314hello kitty?19:07
Stskeepswazd: hehe19:07
Stskeepswazd: we do not have to have same layout on every display19:07
Stskeepsfor good measure :P19:07
johnxsame layout on every display!19:07
wazdI'll try to make unified layout19:08
wazdit will rock I tell ya19:08
johnxI was actually kidding... :P19:09
Stskeepsjohnx: so, 0.9, what should we focus on?19:09
wazdjohnx: And I'm not >:D19:09
Stskeepsi would like some better kb layout support, the moblin patches and some of their applets maybe19:09
Stskeepsfixing the jffs images (i just saw the pinning upgrade in action)19:09
johnxI'm not sure how far I'll get but I'd like to make a concerted push towards adopting Ubuntu's hildon-desktop patches19:10
Stskeepsyeah. they are those im talking about19:10
Stskeepshow is zaurus going, still tslib issues?19:10
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, make it not suck, duh.19:10
johnxyeah. it works great (as well as can be expected in 64MB of RAM) with the Xfbdev binary from Angstrom19:10
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: you should try 0.8 .. it is quite nice :P19:11
johnxI *know* it will turn out to be some dumb mistake on my part19:11
Macerholy shit the damn south park after the election is so damn funny19:11
Macersarah palin is like a british thief :)19:11
Stskeepsi will give a cookie to whoever tells me how to redirect vagalume output to esd, over ip. :P19:12
Stskeepsjohnx: saw that nikolajhendel is mailing me a 770 for mer devel?19:12
johnxyup. sounds good :)19:13
Stskeepsyeah, now maybe i can see how much of a sardine can it is, for mer :P19:13
johnxand AFB is getting one too from someone else19:13
johnxand I keep looking at those teklogix psion netbooks ...19:14
Stskeepsthink i'm giving it to the fiancee once it runs mer, for live user testing..19:14
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johnxweb surfing in 64MB of RAM is not so awesome :/19:14
Stskeeps(yes, i am a horrible horrible person)19:14
Stskeepsno, but on the other hand if it can rdesktop to a windows vm..19:14
Stskeepshow is the 770 size-wise compared to the n800 anyway19:16
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johnxbigger when it's in that case/jacket thing IIRC19:16
Stskeepsmm19:17
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johnxdpatch looks kind of awesome19:21
* qwerty12 prefers quilt19:21
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johnxdoes quilt have something similar to dpatch-edit-patch?19:21
qwerty12dpatch in sbox messed me around badly, dunno if it's because my permissions in /tmp may be odd19:21
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pupnikhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIoP7V6U-aQ  New 3D demos running on the Pandora19:22
qwerty12With quilt, it's "quilt new <nameofpatch>; quilt add <name of file to be patched>; quilt refresh"19:22
Stskeepspupnik: which is probably just a beagleboard inside.. :P19:23
johnxStskeeps, :P19:23
pupnikoops19:23
pupnikhttp://www.openpandora.de/blog.php19:24
johnxpupnik, yup. I was talking to DJW when he was about to make those19:24
pupnikcool19:24
Stskeepsthen again, if it -was- just a beagleboard inside and a lcd and keypads, and a casing, and battery19:24
Stskeepsi would buy it.19:24
pupniki hope they dont dither about kbd layout19:24
pupnikshipping march maybe?19:24
johnxsigh19:24
johnxmaybe19:24
GeneralAntilleslol19:25
johnxgetting closer to the RX51 now...but I have this funny feeling the RX51 will be a little more expensive than an N810WE...19:25
GeneralAntillesShipping never19:25
johnxGeneralAntilles, sooo...bets on the RX51 price?19:25
GeneralAntillesjohnx, discount code.19:25
GeneralAntilles~$500 +/- $5019:26
Stskeepshow much are the discounts usually anyway?19:26
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pupnikwe better get hw accel video encoding from HD camera19:26
Stskeepsnot that i expect i would get one, due to my radical views and thundering talks..19:26
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pupniknokia needs to deliver a wallop on the features front to drive sales during recession19:26
johnxGeneralAntilles, funny cause the N96 goes for more with lesser hardware ...19:27
Stskeepsyeah, but n96 is a phone19:27
johnx:)19:27
johnxhey rm_you_19:28
GeneralAntillesExactly as Stskeeps says.19:28
GeneralAntillesThe N97 is easily gonna run $70019:28
GeneralAntillesWith lesser hardware19:28
GeneralAntillesBut it's a phone.19:28
GeneralAntillesHell, the N96 is arguably lesser hardware than the N810.19:28
Corsacerf, n85 is not yet really available that they release an n8619:28
johnxGeneralAntilles, if it runs much less than $600 I'll be surprised19:29
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, about %6019:30
JaffaThis quilt discussion reminds me that I have to look at migrating mud to quilt for patch mgmt19:30
GeneralAntillesBoth Stskeeps and johnx are assured discount codes. :P19:30
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I can't imagine them pricing it much over $60019:30
GeneralAntillesThey'll be right out of the market.19:30
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: then again, it is not healthy for the mer project we push our n800s away from daily usage ;)19:30
johnxGeneralAntilles, unless it's intended to fit in with the rest of the N-Series line finally19:30
Macerthe n96 was a step backwards19:31
* Macer hugs his n9519:31
Macerwonder why they got rid of the 3d accel in the n9619:32
GeneralAntillesDual ARM9s19:32
JaffaStskeeps: give your discount RX-51s away and use your N800s for mer all the time19:32
johnxeh19:32
StskeepsJaffa: hehe19:32
StskeepsJaffa: or do the sane thing.. make your gf a Mer user and use it as cheap testing19:33
johnxtime will tell on prices I guess...but they bump the price quite a bit every time...19:33
Macern810we would be awesome if wimax actually existed anywhere but baltimore19:33
GeneralAntillesjohnx, $379, $400, $46919:33
GeneralAntillesMore than $100?19:33
GeneralAntillesStill, what you _you_ care? Discount code. . . .19:34
GeneralAntilles:P19:34
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johnxhere's why I care: if the N900 attracted *only* people of the consumer variety and none or very few of the linux hacker/dev variety thins will not be awesome from a 3rd party software perspective19:36
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GeneralAntillesMeh, they don't attract that many people initially anyway19:37
GeneralAntillesThen we get major price drops and people come pouring in.19:38
GeneralAntillesNothing new or different19:38
Stskeepsi have had normal people wanting a tablet, which scared me19:38
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GeneralAntillesBesides, Nokia knows what they're about and they know an exorbitant price wont work.19:38
Stskeepscos they dont want to take their laptop to bed or take out the laptp for relaxing purposes19:38
Macerthe west wing where they shut down the government because of the budget is a riot19:39
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johnxGeneralAntilles, I worry about other parts of Nokia pushing the Maemo guys to 'monetize' the tablets...anyways, this is neither here nor there. hopefully by the time the RX51 is out Maemo/Hildon won't be a one vendor distro/platform anymore19:39
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GeneralAntillesI think it's likely they're already running plenty of profits for the tablets, personally.19:40
flavioribeirohey guys, what do you think about buy a n800 tablet? is it too old? the apps written to n810 runs in n800 devices?19:40
johnxflavioribeiro, I love my n800 and yes, the N810 and N800 run exactly the same software19:41
johnxbasically it depends entirely on what you're doing with it whether it's worth it to wait for something new or buy right now19:41
* GeneralAntilles sighs.19:42
GeneralAntillesMore 404s in maemo.org/development19:42
GeneralAntillesWhoop-de-dooo!19:42
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johnxflavioribeiro, so what are you planning to do with it?19:44
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mgedminflavioribeiro: I have to say I like my n810 better than I liked my n80020:00
mgedmineven though I was initially convinced it would be the other way around20:00
mgedminaesthetically, the n810 is prettier20:00
mgedminand the hw keyboard is useful20:00
mgedminfunctionality-wise, they're about the same20:00
mgedminone has gps, the other has fm radio and full-size sd slots20:00
mgedminone is cheaper20:01
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johnxfrom my perspective: I do find that I use the SD slots quite a bit, especially for transferring from a digital camera while out and about (and also for dev stuff)20:01
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mgedminfinding microsd -> minisd adapters is a bit tricky20:05
mgedminand I'm not buying minisd cards, thank you very much20:05
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flavioribeiroso johnx, do you think 288 dollars its a good price to buy a n800?20:07
johnxit depends on where you are I guess20:07
johnxit's $220 for an N810 in the US right now20:07
mgedmindidn't I see a n810 recently for a similar price?20:07
mgedminoh, even lower20:07
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mgedmin$269.99 on amazon20:08
mgedminI'd say 288 is too much for a n800, unless you really prefer the n800 to the n81020:08
flavioribeirohm..20:08
flavioribeiroim in brazil20:09
mgedminah20:09
mgedminlet me guess, amazon won't ship there20:09
* mgedmin is in lithuania20:09
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flavioribeirono no, its a friend of mine thats selling the n800 for 650 reais20:09
flavioribeiro650,00 Brazil reais = 288,50445 U.S. dollars20:09
johnxwhat is the normal price in Brazil for the N800 and N810?20:09
flavioribeiron810 is not being sold here20:10
mgedmin"priceless" ;)20:10
flavioribeirojust n800, per 799,90 reais20:10
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flavioribeiroabout 350 dollars20:11
johnxis there a way for you to buy it from the US?20:11
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flavioribeiroi have a friend thats living in us, but if i buy my friend's n800 i could divide the payments in 2 or maybe 3 months20:13
johnxwhat do you plan to use it for?20:13
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flavioribeirolearning more about embedded linux, maybe try to install mamona and use the wi-fi connection to voip calls... canola to listen some songs at the bus20:14
johnxthen you'll probably be happy with an N80020:15
flavioribeiroand why not make small apps in python to remember my activities at my routine20:15
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* Stskeeps ponders if mamona is still active20:17
flavioribeiroi saw n97 cellphone thats almost released by nokia, do you think n97 can make nokia discontinue the tablets division or not?20:17
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johnxflavioribeiro, they're definitely continuing both :)20:17
flavioribeirogood, there's any rumor of a new tablet?20:18
johnxNokia will release the next tablet sometime this year, probably sometime in the summer20:18
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olijohnx: something new, or just improved 8*0?20:22
timelessjeremiah: still alive?20:22
johnxoli, something new20:22
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olijohnx: what else can they put into tablet? there will be 2mpx (or more) cam - for sure20:23
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* GeneralAntilles sighs http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=264906&postcount=2820:23
johnxoli, most of the info is linked from here: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle#Fremantle_timeline20:23
GeneralAntillesoli, HD camera.20:24
johnxsuch a loaded term...20:24
GeneralAntillesjohnx, it means what it says.20:25
GeneralAntillesIt records 720p20:25
johnxin this case we know what's happening...but "HD cam" could mean it takes 1280x720 stills or that it records 1920x1200 movies20:25
johnxI was just commenting on the term...nothing more20:26
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GeneralAntillesIt records 720p, according to the code I've poked around in.20:26
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derfIf the image quality is as bad as the current camera, it might as well be 240p.20:26
johnxI'm thinking they'll buy real sensors this time instead of just raiding the parts pile20:27
timelessit isn't as bad as the current camera20:27
GeneralAntillesderf, image quality was one of the things they were focusing one.20:27
timelessalthough, the nice thing about low expectations20:27
timelesswe should be able to do better than last time :)20:27
GeneralAntillesI've got two model numbers if you want to correlate them to other devices and see what their quality is, though.20:27
derfYeah... it wouldn't take much to be an improvement.20:27
timelessderf: no promises20:28
johnxthe N800 kinda reminds me of the 1st gen Mazda RX-7...a neat concept made out of spare parts20:28
timelessbut i'm hoping for at least VGA quality20:28
GeneralAntillesMT9T012 or ET8EK820:28
johnxtimeless, 16 colors or 256 :>20:28
timelessi'm hoping for 25620:28
timelessbut maybe it'll be grayscale? :)20:29
johnxheh...or sepia?20:29
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Stskeepssepia would be a little streampunk..20:30
Stskeepser, steampunk20:30
johnx...streampunks in a van down by the river...20:30
* johnx reads about quilt20:31
wazdmy brain is working again, thanks to World of Goo )20:31
thopiekarwazd: demo?20:31
timelessactually20:31
timelessi just tried20:31
timelessand i've decided i want to downplay your expectations20:32
timelessi just hope that opening the camera will20:32
timeless1. open the camera20:32
timeless2. show something that isn't a solid black box20:32
wazdthopiekar: Actually I stole it :(20:32
timelessthat's what i got :)20:32
thopiekarwazd: hehe me too..20:32
wazdthopiekar: but it worth 20 bucks for sure20:32
wazdthopiekar: I like graphics and music very much)20:33
thopiekarwazd: true20:33
timelessi pretend to work on the browser20:33
timelessoops20:33
wazdthopiekar: too bad that I can't play too much cause of touchpad :) This game needs wacom or good mouse :)20:34
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Stskeepstimeless pretends? :o20:34
timelesswell, i wave to the browser people, answer browser qustions20:34
thopiekarbut the best for brain train is "brain challange" of ngage.. I've got all games cracked^^20:35
timelessmake the other browser people happy20:35
thopiekarIt isn't very difficult..20:35
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RST38hurgh20:36
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RST38hthat was bad20:37
GeneralAntillesYou know what might get people developing for Maemo?20:37
GeneralAntillesIf the documentation didn't suck totally half the time and 404 the other half.20:37
RST38hGeneral: Tell us something new =(20:37
GeneralAntillesI wonder if moving to Forum Nokia will make it better or worse20:38
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: New documentation is coming and it is a lot better.20:38
GeneralAntillesBetter not be anymore PDF-only releases, though.20:38
johnxhmmm...something new...You know what might get people developing for Maemo? free Pizza and beer.20:38
X-FadeIt is html and PDF.20:38
johnxafter all, PDF is just an archive format extracted with pdftohtml :)20:39
X-FadeDocumentation is now created in Latex :)20:39
johnxvery cool20:40
* RST38h is really afraid now20:40
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wazdGeneralAntilles: what might get people developing for Maemo?)20:42
johnxwazd, i think we agreed free pizza and beer is the best incentive20:42
timelessgan: so... I'm going to add nitro/crash-reporter to the list of localized packages20:42
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Stskeepsjohnx: free clothes, - tshirts!20:43
Stskeeps:P20:43
Stskeeps(a way to attract student developers)20:43
johnxheh...anything that saves geeks time from doing laundry/feeding themselves/getting drunk20:43
wazdjohnx: aw, if pizza and beer then count me xC20:44
GeneralAntillesIs NITRO in a useful repo yet?20:44
wazdxD20:44
GeneralAntillesand does it actually work?20:44
RST38hability to make money from their projects will get people coding20:44
* Stskeeps watches b-mans installer install20:44
qwerty12-merGeneralAntilles, some nokia repo with display name of Crash Reporter20:45
timelessgan: well20:45
timelessit doesn't work in x86 for a bunch of reasons20:45
timelessi'm about to file a bug about one of them20:45
timelessand it probably wouldn't work in Mer-armel unless the kernel is built w/ a certain hack20:45
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GeneralAntillesIt's in the SDK repo, of course.20:51
GeneralAntillesSo they expect people to reboot-loop their tablets to help them collect crash reports.20:51
RST38hwazd: I am being spammed by somebody offering 1000 m^2 of A-class office space at Tverskaya20:51
RST38hwazd: "only" $900/m^2 a year to lease. Is this what "crisis" means? =)20:52
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timelessgan: yeah well um20:53
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timelesshe thought it was in extras20:53
* timeless shrugs20:53
timelessi grabbed it from the internal repo20:54
GeneralAntilleslol?20:54
GeneralAntillesYeah, sorry, I forgot I surrounded the grocery store with landmines.20:54
GeneralAntillesGood luck getting the sugar.20:54
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timelessawww20:55
wazdRST38h: well, 900$ is pretty cheap :)20:56
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* qwerty12-mer stays away from grocery stores in SPB, FL20:56
wazdRST38h: A-class office space in my house (Valovaya st.) costs bout the same20:57
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wazdRST38h: But it's sadovoye koltso on the other hand)20:57
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RST38hwazd: Should I lease it for $900k/year? :)20:59
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* RST38h will probably just go with that Viagra spam instead...21:01
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timelessgan, ok https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=412421:05
timelessthat should cover the kernel stupidity21:05
wazdRST38h: why not?)21:05
timelessthere's enough info there to work around the lame hack they're using21:05
RST38hwazd: Can I claim lack of funds? =)21:05
GeneralAntillesHum, Ovi Store for Maemo.21:06
wazdGeneralAntilles: whwhawha?21:06
wazdbtw, separate app for store is totally lame21:07
GeneralAntilleswazd, pondering, mostly.21:07
GeneralAntillesWith Qt that might be more feasible.21:07
wazdstore should be web based21:07
GeneralAntillesWeb on mobile devices is still to irritating and slow21:08
GeneralAntillesBoth options should be available.21:08
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GeneralAntillesI'd much rather browse applications through h-a-m than Downloads.21:08
wazdGeneralAntilles: make special styles for different mobiles21:08
GeneralAntillesBleh21:09
wazdGeneralAntilles: I want to buy an app wherever I am21:09
ShadowJKstore as app probably comes from s60 and s40. lets you pay through sms21:09
GeneralAntilleswazd, what does that have to do with web or not?21:09
RST38hThere is a mess with nokia app stores21:09
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RST38hLet us see:21:10
RST38h1. There is Nokia NGage21:10
RST38h2. There is Nokia Download!21:10
RST38h3. There is upcoming Nokia Ovi store21:10
wazdI want to come to my gf, open her browser, download/buy software I need, sync it to the phone21:10
RST38hNeither #1 nor #2 work well. My guess is that #3 will be as much of a failure21:10
ShadowJKthere's the "Catalogs" thing too21:11
wazdOr I can send an sms to her with link to the app she needs for example21:11
timelesstableteer!21:11
RST38hwazd: This is perfectly doable with third party stores21:11
ShadowJKWhat I really don't want is "sync it to the phone" :-)21:11
wazdRST38h: yep, cause the're webbased)21:11
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GeneralAntilleswazd, why would that require being _web-only_?21:11
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GeneralAntillesWhy not have both?21:12
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GeneralAntillesSo you have the convenience of web21:12
GeneralAntillesand the non-suck of native.21:12
GeneralAntillesJust like Downloads and Application Manager.21:12
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slonopotamushehe21:12
timelesshey21:12
lcukbecause most apps come alive when you connect them into a network21:12
wazdGeneralAntilles: app should be installed21:12
timelesshow much does apple take as a cut from iTunes store sales?21:12
wazdGeneralAntilles: and it should be approved21:13
wazdGeneralAntilles: this crap stops platform developing21:13
GeneralAntilleswazd, I'm still not understanding why web-only is a requirement.21:13
ShadowJKoh hey, there's "Nokia Software Market" too21:13
slonopotamusso, hot'n'fresh gentoo-with-x11-on-n8x0 docs! http://slonopotamus.org/gentoo-on-n8x0#step_4_x1121:13
GeneralAntillestimeless, 30%?21:14
ShadowJKactually, this "Catalogs" app that was preinstalled on my E70 seems to be a frontend program to many stores, including some WB and EA store21:14
johnxslonopotamus, how's openoffice?21:14
wazdGeneralAntilles: well, if app-store will give me web link to the app then I don't mind, it's just additional work21:14
lcukinstalling apps by a single fiddly one liner is not going to cut it in todays consumer market21:14
slonopotamusjohnx, wifi & bt first21:15
johnxslonopotamus, just kidding. congrats on the release :)21:15
lcukthey expect a catalogue with pictures and descriptions and reviews and ratings21:15
lcuklike maemo.org/downloads, but directly on the device and slick21:15
slonopotamusjohnx, i know :) wait a bit, i'll have it21:15
ShadowJKiirc you can click on things on maemo downloads and it installs on the device?21:16
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X-FadeMobile (bar)codes would make more sense when we have a HD cam?21:17
X-FadeAt least you wouldn't have to type the url? :)21:17
lcukX-Fade, technically the barcode database can sit locally for lookups and checks21:17
lcukbut the mobile site should link with stores and use that code in numerous places21:17
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, more importantly, a camera where you can see what you're taking a picture of. ;)21:17
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: And one that has focus?21:17
ShadowJKhm21:18
GeneralAntillesThere's a chip for that in the kernel.21:18
lcukbarcodes arent that bad to scan though21:18
ShadowJKam I the only one who's never downloaded a program for cellphone/tablet on a computer, always on the device itself? :-)21:18
StskeepsShadowJK: you have been blessed with sane data plan..21:18
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ShadowJKMaybe also because if I was in front of a computer I'd use software on the computer21:19
ShadowJKand whenever I've needed software on the cellphone it's been because I haven't had access to a computer21:19
ShadowJKand then I've just downloaded what I needed21:19
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guysoft42hey, my fn buttion stoped working on my N810. i am using the newest maemo system. and i think it stoped due to an upgrade, what can i do?21:25
ShadowJKbtw, the biggest reason why you'd want to have it web-based: sane resume download support21:27
ShadowJKAll these random apps always fuck it up :-)21:27
Stskeepsguysoft42: you were using him-hebrew or something weren't you?21:27
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guysoft42Stskeeps, yes, that package did not upgrade..21:27
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tourett_http://change.pennergame.de/change_please/2520711/21:28
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Stskeepsguysoft42: possibly your xkb layout that screwed up then.. fn is a bit of a strange creature on tablets21:28
guysoft42Stskeeps, is there a way to reset it?21:28
* timeless grumbles21:29
timelessi can't find crash reporter anywhere21:29
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Stskeepsthe invisible product21:29
timelessi think crash-reporter won't appear until they fix the throbber21:29
timelesswe tried to fix it a few hours ago21:29
timelessi think i was supposed to wait for the next sdk sync21:29
timelessbrb21:29
Stskeepsguysoft42: not sure21:30
Stskeepseasiest way is to start again from a fresh reflash i gues21:30
Stskeepss21:30
guysoft42Stskeeps, not for me, i have a lot of data here21:30
guysoft42Stskeeps, and it won't mean it will go away..21:31
guysoft42Stskeeps, how can i have a look to see what is worng.. isn't it connected to xmodmap or something?21:31
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Stskeepsi didn't look closely at him-hebrew, but it is XKB related.. maybe there is a setxkb* thing21:32
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* Stskeeps wonders if it is bad forum manner to have a thread per release21:33
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, there are a number of different schools of thought. ;)21:34
Stskeepswell, i usually justify it to myself by attaching some kind of discussion piece.. not a very flammatory one this time around though21:35
GeneralAntillesMost people would say new thread per, anyway.21:36
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johnxI vote new thread = new release21:37
GeneralAntillesSo if I start a 0.9 thread you have to release? :P21:38
johnxit's too hard to figure out what's what without a threaded forum otherwise21:38
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johnxGeneralAntilles, yeah. I'll release. then you'll see why up to now Stskeeps is the one who releases :P21:38
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* johnx sleeps21:40
guysoft42Stskeeps, ok.. i tried as a test to remove the hebrew package, and its still not working21:41
guysoft42and i did a reboot..21:41
rm_you_night johnx21:41
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johnx'night rm_you. catch you tomorrow maybe21:41
rm_you:)21:41
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guysoft42i would have posted this at tablet talks, but i don't seem to be getting my activation e-mail21:42
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guysoft42Stskeeps, ok um, solved it.. but i am not sure how - when i installed back the hebrew is started working21:43
RST38hrm_me21:44
rm_youindeed.21:45
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lcuki love bacon, but this is a bit ott: http://www.lolpix.com/pictures/12/Funny_Pictures_487.htm21:49
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Proteousthere's a lot of muscle definition on that arm, totaly doesn't look like he/she eats lots of bacon21:51
Proteousmaybe that's a leg21:51
Proteouswho knows21:51
rm_youO_o21:51
lcukmuscle definition? i didnt get past the fat21:51
ProteousI was being sarcastic21:51
lcukmaybe its a pig..21:51
lcukello rm_you21:52
rm_youhey lcuk, luck^21:52
rm_youyou guys need to duel it out21:52
lcuknot really, i know where i stand21:53
Proteousright next to the bacon, we know21:53
* lcuk is knackered totally today21:53
* X-Fade too21:54
lcukhiya X-Fade properly now lol, how was your vacation21:55
X-FadeHi lcuk. It was great.21:56
X-FadeBut the backlog isn't ;)21:56
lcukheh yeah, i had a minor emergency :P21:56
lcukbut ive decided to go to the source of the problem for next time21:56
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X-Fadelcuk: Minor emergency?21:57
X-FadeDeleted your svn repo? :)21:57
lcukyeah slashdot syndication sent flat text over and it go merged with the url21:57
lcukim gonna send a note to taco before i make anotherp osting and explain the problem21:57
luke-jrX-Fade: that is one benefit of Bazaar/git/darcs/etc :p21:58
luke-jreveryone has a backup21:58
X-Fadeluke-jr: That is what we have git.maemo.org for ;)21:58
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lcukdoes git allow a subset of users to access the repo only, ie if i wanted a small cleanup phase before something went public21:59
lcukbut needed to enlist some help21:59
luke-jrI dont' know about git, but bazaar is quite handy21:59
lcukX-Fade, i'm guessing you didnt see the latest video then did you :D22:00
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luke-jrwith bazaar, you'd just make a local branch, push it somewhere public for help, then push to mainline22:00
X-Fadelcuk: No? url? :)22:00
lcukluke-jr, i have local branches already, ill have to set something up22:00
lcuki dont want the code public until im ready :)22:00
luke-jrlcuk: with bazaar, it's simply "bzr push lp:~user/projectname/branchname"22:01
lcukx-fade, its a proof of concept thats grown stronger this week :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMXp0Dg_UaY22:01
lcukluke-jr, but thats public you just said that22:01
luke-jryeah22:01
lcukthats not what i want22:01
* lcuk wants to stay in his cathederal whilst hes putting the things together22:01
wazdlcuk: I already know this link by heart I think :D22:03
lcuklol wazd :) better than me then22:03
lcukthere will be a new one to remember soon ;)22:04
X-Fadelcuk: Impressive!22:04
lcukx-fade :) yeah i thought so myself, this is a little bit later and a bit more is in that is recognisable: http://liqbase.net/liq.20090214_130409.lib.scr.png22:04
lcukand the calendar actually has real dates and scrolls and stuff as well now :$22:04
lcukand zooming onto images and stuff is so fluid and natural22:05
wazdlcuk: you definitely need to buy pair of jeans, nike shoes and black polo :D22:06
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thopiekarhey X-Fade I wanted to upload some packages to extras and I have to upload the .changes-files first.. but the web-interface says that the file(s) are not valid..22:06
X-Fadethopiekar: Well the web-interface is a perfect application and doesn't lie :D22:07
wazdlcuk: cause liqbase is so unpresedented extraordinary gorgeous, best release ever :)22:07
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X-Fadethopiekar: I'll check what's up..22:07
thopiekarbut the packages and the .changes are made with dpkg-bp -rfakeroot...22:07
thopiekarhttp://rapidshare.com/files/197282256/streamripper_armel_all.tar.gz22:07
lcukwazd :) its only the start though.  im building what *I* think a touch interface should be.  i am simply determined enough to go through with it22:08
thopiekarX-Fade: these are all files I used to build streamripper and it's dependences..22:08
lcukthopiekar, does it give a reason why its rejected it22:09
lcuk"error: not enough bacon"22:09
thopiekar File upload error. You didn't upload a valid .changes file.22:10
jeremiahThat is always the reason for error - not enough bacon.22:10
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lcukheh jeremiah :D hi by the way, good to see we share common ground22:10
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lcukdid you just see the link up there ^^^ to youtube22:11
jeremiahlcuk: A man who like bacon is a good man. :)22:11
jeremiahNo, I missed that, can you pass it my way again.22:11
lcuk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMXp0Dg_UaY22:11
jeremiahI saw that it said "proof of concept" but I didn't know about what . . .22:11
jeremiahah there it is22:11
X-Fadethopiekar: There is a , in your email address?22:12
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, just, fyi, -community usually isn't a very effective way to get to Nokia. :\22:12
thopiekarno just thopiekar at googlemail.com...22:12
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X-Fadethopiekar: Check the changed-by line.22:13
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: Thanks, I wasn't sure where to send that email.22:13
jeremiahWhat do you recommend? -council?22:13
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GeneralAntillesjeremiah, bugzilla, usually.22:13
GeneralAntillesThat, or hunt down Quim and accost him.22:13
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jeremiahBugzilla it is then.22:13
GeneralAntillesIt varies a bit on the issue.22:13
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GeneralAntillesjeremiah, did you see the bug I linked earlier?22:14
jeremiahQuim hunting, a popular pastim22:14
jeremiahe22:14
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: No, I didn't. Bad me.22:14
thopiekarX-Fade: what do you mean with the changed-by line?22:14
GeneralAntilleshttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=392222:14
jeremiahI should be looking at the bugzilla instance more often22:14
lcukGeneralAntilles, you lose karma if you dont follow up on bugs22:14
X-Fadethopiekar: Changed-By: in your .changes file..22:14
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lcukjeremiah, you need a tablet with bugzilla rss feed :D (does one exist?)22:14
X-Fadethopiekar: for stream ripper22:15
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GeneralAntillesjeremiah, look at https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=303 and https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630 if you want some interesting historical context.22:16
thopiekarX-Fade: aaahh I see :)22:16
thopiekarX-Fade: thanks22:16
X-Fadethopiekar: Not sure if that is the problem, but try it out ;)22:16
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: Can we do a crazy find command, like this, find / -name changelog -exec sed 's/integrator/some_one/g' {} \; ?22:16
X-Fadethopiekar: You might want to look at a proper Section too.22:16
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GeneralAntillesjeremiah, http://www.octofish.net/bugjar/ is good for tracking b.m.o if you don't want to watch for all bug changes.22:17
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lcukwhy dont all the actually people employed around maemo actually sit in some big control centre?22:18
jeremiahSweet, good stuff GeneralAntilles, if that is your real name.22:18
lcukthat way you could all share data22:18
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jeremiahlcuk: We do!22:18
jeremiahIt is called "Planet Earth."22:18
X-Fadejeremiah: I thought it was the collective?22:18
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, http://maemo.org/profile/view/generalantilles/ ;)22:18
Meiz_n810jeremiah: where's that?22:19
jeremiahNo! We're an anarcho syndicalist commune!22:19
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lcukBUG22:19
jeremiahMeiz_n810: To the left of Mars. :)22:19
lcukGeneralAntilles, you have been given ratings for thumbing up jeremiah twice22:20
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: You have some serious karma dude. :)22:20
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lcukjeremiah, you should only have been thumbed by GeneralAntilles22:20
lcukonce22:20
qwerty12-merMeiz_n810, around?22:20
X-Fadejeremiah: Keep filing bugs and up your karma :)22:20
Meiz_n810qwerty12-mer: here22:20
GeneralAntillesBug filing is great for karma whoring.22:20
* lcuk is not a whore though :P22:21
jeremiahI am a karma whore, and I am not ashamed.22:21
qwerty12-merMeiz_n810, I've sorted the starting problems with my mer powerlaunch port, wanna test?22:21
* qwerty12-mer is a karma whore.22:21
GeneralAntillesBlogs can be pretty good, too, if you know how to say what people want to hear. ;)22:21
jeremiahlcuk: I am having trouble playing the YouTube stuff, but is that a port of Qt you are working on?22:21
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GeneralAntilleslcuk's infernal machine22:22
lcukjeremiah, :) no, qt runs too slowly22:22
jeremiahHad to switch OS to get youtube to co-operate.22:22
Meiz_n810qwerty12-mer: um, maybe not today, i wanna sleep now. tomorrow, ok?22:22
qwerty12-merheh, fair enough :D22:22
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Meiz_n810PING22:23
Stskeepshttp://internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=264958 <- Mer 0.822:23
Meiz_n810~PING22:23
MERbot->PONG.22:23
infobot~pong22:23
jeremiahlcuk: Impressive.22:23
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, does this mean I have to blog now? :(22:23
lcukjeremiah, :) it is gonna have all my existing liqbase applications in soon, heres later progress http://liqbase.net/liq.20090214_130409.lib.scr.png22:24
qwerty12-merStskeeps, gonna upload powerlaunch to the builder, inclusion in 0.9? *grin*22:24
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: think so22:24
lcuk(the sketches and images zoom in the same way and lead to apps on the data)22:24
Stskeepsqwerty12-mer: hehe, yeah22:24
lcukStskeeps, contrats :D at this rate we should be on version 3.5 by june!22:25
lcukcongrats even22:25
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* qwerty12-mer wonders why dch in mer is using my hostname from maemo22:27
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MaceN800hi22:35
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MaceN800have to work on my fbsd servers more22:35
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X-FadeSpamming like mad... Complaints -> dneary  ;)22:41
dnearyX-Fade: That's why my email address is up there :)22:42
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X-FadeOk, I'm out of here. Good night everybody.22:46
Mekam I missing something, or do those referendum mails don't mention how/where/when to actually vote?22:46
RST38hhttp://www.pcmag.com/article2/0%2C2817%2C2341032%2C00.asp22:47
RST38hdneary <-- evil spammer indeed22:48
wazdRST38h: second :)22:48
X-FadeRST38h: At least he doesn't seem to sell anything :)22:48
GeneralAntillesSpamtastic!22:48
GeneralAntillesLater, X-Fade.22:48
GeneralAntillesWelcome back. :)22:49
X-FadeEhm yeah, really gone now ;)22:49
RST38hX-Fade: Who knows? Maybe he is just sneaky at advancing his goals!22:49
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* b-man is amazed when his N800 has been running for 5½ hours without using a charger22:51
Stskeepsubuntu?22:52
b-manmaemo22:52
b-manand ubuntu22:52
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* RST38h wonders if ARM manages to push its cpus into any netbooks22:52
dnearyMek: It's possible22:52
b-manRST38h: eventually ;)22:53
aquatixRST38h: they already did22:54
aquatixthere was some 100 EUR netbook here in a toy shop22:54
RST38haquatix: no, I don't mean obscure chinese stuff22:54
aquatixah :)22:54
RST38hI mean real devices from the likes of Toshiba22:54
fireunarnt there a couple netbooks that can boot an arm cpu in "lite" mode, or a full cpu when in "desktop" mode?22:55
fireunI thought that was a new trend....22:55
aquatixthat HTC thing?22:55
aquatixquite old already even22:56
* fireun shrugs, still only using a 770 here22:56
fireunI like it oldskool22:57
* aquatix is happy with his n81022:57
aquatixit's able to play my Invader Zim episodes without transcoding22:57
fireunI'd happily trade my two 770s for an n8xx22:57
aquatixhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/02/16/arm-debuts-sparrow-multicore-netbook-processor/22:58
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aquatixRST38h: well, there's the first step :)22:58
* Stskeeps adds beagleboard instructions to the mer 0.8 page22:58
Stskeepsdneary: so, i got 2/3 and 3/3 but not 1/3? :P23:00
dnearyStskeeps: Check your spal23:00
dnearyOr it will arrive during the night23:00
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Stskeepsk23:02
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dnearyNight!23:09
Jaffaev'ning23:10
Jaffadneary: thanks for sorting those23:10
dnearyWasn't easy :)23:11
dnearyeen a long day23:11
qwerty12_N800Can I vote tomorrow? Copy & pasting and gmail on a tablet can test your patience :)23:12
* rm_you still randomly has http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/rock%20on.mp3 in his winamp playlist23:12
* rm_you prods GeneralAntilles 23:13
GeneralAntilleslol23:14
dnearyqwerty12_N800: You have all week23:14
qwerty12_N800dneary: hah, thanks :)23:14
herzidneary: where can I see my karma?23:14
GeneralAntilleshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2mNQp0hhqA23:14
GeneralAntillesrm_you, ^23:14
dnearyherzi: maemo.org/profile23:14
JaffaGeneralAntilles: I'm writing up a council announcement23:15
herzidneary: I get HTTP:500 error when logging in on maemo org for weeks23:15
dnearyherzi: Are you trying http or https, or does it make a difference?23:15
Jaffaherzi: http://maemo.org/profile/view/herzi shouldn't require a logon.23:15
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herzihttp errors23:15
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: it's up to the developer if he/she promotes the i386 version of their app. I don't promote x86 versions of my things23:16
herzihttps errors, too23:16
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: alright23:16
qwerty12_N800extras-devel has both by default23:16
herziJaffa: thanks23:17
herzidneary: neither work23:17
dnearyhttp://maemo.org/profile/view/herzi/ <- 48 karma23:18
herziah23:18
JaffaGood grief, maemo.org's being slow this evening.23:20
dnearyyeah23:22
dnearyThe server's getting spammed, Niels said23:22
dneary(not by me)23:22
dnearyNight23:22
* Stskeeps stretches and pours himself a well-deserved glass of wine.23:27
GeneralAntillesPff23:28
GeneralAntillesYou deserve nothing.23:28
Stskeepshehe23:28
b-manlol23:28
Stskeepsb-man: couple of patches for you.. sec23:28
b-mank23:29
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: it is also me and the fiancees two year day together so23:29
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* b-man sooo wishes we could somehow reverse-ingener some of beagleboard's 3D drivers for our cpu, too bad it's not yet possible :(23:31
Stskeepsb-man: yeah, well, that ship has sailed i guess23:32
Stskeepsit is possible, ofcourse, but takes a long time :)23:32
timelE61ijeremiah: how goes it?23:32
b-man> http://groups.google.com/group/beagleboard/browse_thread/thread/44a0c0f5354afaab   :)23:32
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MaceN800yawn23:38
StskeepsMaceN800: time to try out Mer vmdk :P23:38
Stskeepsoh, right, you did already didn't you? the double application menus :P23:38
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MaceN800yah23:39
MaceN800i couldnt stand it. sorry23:39
Stskeepshehe23:39
MaceN800i'd have lost my mind23:39
MaceN800it's just one of those things23:39
MaceN800it was very nice though23:41
MaceN800i'm sure if i install it in about 6 more months or so it will be on awesome status23:41
Stskeepsi am surprised how much was done 0.7->0.8, heh23:41
MaceN800did you guys fix the double menus with .823:42
MaceN800?23:42
MaceN800:)23:42
Stskeepsno, not yet, i didn't have time to look into that part23:42
Stskeepswas some higher priority issues23:42
MaceN800well.. maybe .9 ;)23:42
MaceN800how is the bt support looking?23:42
MaceN800or do you guys just have people set up bluez?23:43
MaceN800if you got rid of the double menu (maybe make a logo icon for it too ;) ... had wifi and bt hid working23:43
MaceN800i'd love it23:43
timelE61ists: double menus isn't an issue if you install enough bits from diablo ;)23:43
timelE61iMace: eh?23:43
timelE61iNormal bt worked for me in mer23:44
timelE61iI paired my phone to mer-vmdk23:44
StskeepstimelE61i: thats scary somewhat23:44
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MaceN800i didn't try my bluetooth kb23:44
MaceN800i stopped witht he double menu23:44
timelE61isTs: best part..23:44
MaceN800it was driving me nutty heh23:44
timelE61iI can't use bt from the laptop itself23:44
Stskeepshah :P23:45
timelE61iOnly from mer :)23:45
timelE61iWindows bt stack = disaster23:45
MaceN800if the bt hid works then i'm fine.. i adhoc to my phone23:45
timelE61iFwiw, the nokia bt kbd cpl is one of very few things i couldn't install23:46
MaceN800seriously?23:46
MaceN800well.. i guess my su8w is out of the question huh?23:46
StskeepsMaceN800: timeless has been making a mer-diablo frankenstein :P23:46
MaceN800:)23:46
timelE61ithere are pictures of my mer online23:46
timelE61iMace: so...23:46
timelE61iThe cpl is just a cpl23:46
timelE61iQwerty+i replaced one cpl23:47
timelE61iThey're not critical, just ui23:47
* timelE61i needs to figure out how image viewer slipped through the cracks23:47
MaceN800still irritating tho ;) i'll just hold off installing it until it gets a little more down the line23:48
MaceN800maybe around .99 or something23:48
MaceN800heh23:48
timelE61ihey, how does ham decide what's an "application" when it backs up applications?23:48
MaceN800but it is a very nice looking replacement for maemo23:48
MaceN800well.. i have to get back to setting up this shell box23:49
MaceN800fbsd ftw23:49
MaceN800i wonder if the esxi box can use an external hd as storage23:49
timelE61iWe're taking a break from setting up osol23:49
timelE61i(osol is bootable zfs root on a usb disk)23:49
MaceN800osol?23:49
MaceN800ah23:49
qwerty12_N800timelE61i: programs with a section of user/ afaik23:50
timelE61iOpenSolaris2008-11, updated to dev23:50
timelE61iQwerty: i suspected23:50
timelE61iUnfortunate for me....23:50
olianyone using iptablet on N8*0?23:50
oliiptables*23:50
timelE61iI'd have loved to ask ham to back up my installed diablo package list :)23:51
ProteousMmmmm, ham23:51
timelE61iyeah, i won't eat it23:53
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Stskeepsb-man: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/merinstaller.patch23:54
b-manthanks :)23:54
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Macersolaris any good on x8623:55
Macerlast i remembered it didn't come with gcc :)23:55
Macerbut i haven't tried it in a very long time23:55
timelE61iIt comes w/ it now23:56
timelE61iI'm happy w/ it23:56
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