IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2009-02-01

dick-richardsonhttps://www.nokiausa.com/A468632300:00
genewitchwindows vista. i can boot into ubuntu00:00
genewitchi also have xp00:00
dick-richardsonhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware00:01
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genewitchhah! there's a stupid popup on the nokia site that's asking me how my visit was, and it's not going away00:02
dick-richardsonI've used the ubuntu instructions on that 2nd link without any issues00:03
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timelessaww, they cut into the fight sequence as vader was slashing something00:04
genewitchdick-richardson: do i want the diablo release or non diablo release00:05
timelessdiablo00:05
genewitchroger that00:05
timelessand if it isn't clear, what page are you looking at?00:05
timelessbecause it should be clear..00:05
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PhantomÐÒÏÛÕ ÓÏ×ÅÔÁ. ÉÍÅÅÔÓÑ Ó×ÅÖÉÊ nokia n810 Ó chinook ÎÁ ÂÏÒÔÕ. ÐÒÉ ÐÏÐÙÔËÅ ÕÓÔÁÎÏ×ÉÔØ ÐÁËÅÔÙ ÌÏÍÉÔÓÑ × ÒÅÐÙ ËÁË ÔÏ ÎÅ ÔÁË. ÐÙÔÁÅÔÓÑ ÚÁÐÏÌÕÞÉÔØ ÎÅÓÕÝÅÓÔ×ÕÀÝÉÅ ...binary-armel/Packages.diff/Index ×ÍÅÓÔÏ ...binary-armel/Packages . ËÕÄÁ ËÏÐÁÔØ?00:07
timelessEnglish, please?00:07
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Phantomok, just a moment00:07
genewitchtimeless: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N800.php00:07
* timeless considers trying to load that page00:08
genewitchthat page. there's a windows utility, that might work.00:08
genewitchtimeless: it's just a list of all the RX-34 .bin files00:08
timelessiirc that page has a /short/ message at the top00:08
* timeless would have hoped the message would have been remotely helpful00:08
genewitchtablets-dev.nokia.com restricted downloads00:08
* timeless recalls some not particularly useful comments next to each release00:08
genewitchThe latest IT OS DIABLO release for Nokia N80000:09
genewitchi got that one00:09
timelesswow, that page sucks00:10
genewitchi've seen worse on freshmeat00:11
timelessi try to stay out of the gutter00:11
timelessthis is as close as i get00:11
PhantomI'm asking for an advice. There's a brand-new Nokia N810 PDA with preinstalled Chinook onboard. When I try to install additional packages, the PDA asks for files in repositories that does not exists. For example, it tries to access ...binary-armel/Packages.diff/Index instead of ...binary-armel/Packages . Where should I look for solution?00:11
timelessphantom: reflash w/ diablo00:11
timeless(backup  if you have anything useful)00:11
genewitch"the software version in your device is already the latest"00:12
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genewitchthat only took 1 minute...00:13
PhantomI know there are newer versions of the OS and I certainly install them as soon as I download them. But just at the present moment I would like to know is it possible to fix the package management system before I update the system.00:13
timelessit is00:14
timelessbut it isn't worth it00:14
genewitchtimeless: it's flashed, i should be able to apt-get what you said now?00:19
timelessyou could00:19
timelessmy thing is just a way to make it easier to ssh to root@localhost00:19
timelessif you don't plan to use the xterm much, there's little need00:20
genewitchi intend to use it a lot00:20
genewitchi got this for SSH00:20
PhantomThere's another strange thing about the preinstalled OS. /etc/apt/sources.list is empty and package repositoy adresses are stored elsewhere.00:20
timelessin that case, yeah, but you need to use ssh-keygen and setup authorized_keys before you install it00:20
timelessphantom: apt supports /etc/apt/sources.list.d/00:21
PhantomYeah, I know, I just didn't have a moment to look every place :)00:21
genewitchhow long should a full battery last while in use?00:23
timelessan empty battery will barely get your device booted :)00:23
* timeless sighs00:23
genewitchyeah, but i am deciding if i want to go buy a new battery00:24
genewitchi need to get another SD card in town anyhow00:24
* timeless rotfl00:25
timelessone of my favorite lines00:25
timeless<c3po> r2d2, you know better than to trust a strange computer00:25
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PhantomIs there a way to gain root access without installing anything? I read a wiki that suggests to install packages to gain root access, but I can't install them.00:29
genewitchi just had to reflash my n800 to get root00:29
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timelessphantom: application manager can isntall individual debs for you00:30
timelesserr install00:30
PhantomWell, since I have nothing to reflash with, this will become a solution :)00:31
timelessyou have no usb cable?00:31
PhantomI managed to install a couple of apps using dpkg00:31
timelessum00:31
timelessyou shouldn't be able to run dpkg w/o being root00:31
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PhantomOh, err, I'm sorry. I put it wrong way.00:32
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PhantomDkpg did not work without root privileges as it should. .deb were succesfully installed by graphical package manager.00:33
timelessyou should be able to grab debs for openssh-server and related items from the repository00:33
timelessor whichever thing you like00:34
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PhantomThere's a problem. Some debs were installed seamlessly, but some other were reported to be incompatible despite the arch is armel etc...00:35
PhantomI downloaded all debs from maemo.org00:36
timelessyou have 2007 or 2008?00:36
Phantom200800:36
timeless"Message moved to Outbox waiting to be sent"00:37
* timeless wonders what that means00:37
PhantomI have the usb cable, I don't have the diablo :(00:39
* lcuk misread that as "moved to outlook" and thought we had a new hidden feature00:39
qwerty12_N800feature?00:39
timeless"Select 1 message only"00:41
* timeless sighs00:41
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PhantomI checked /etc/apt/sourced.list.d/* and it looks correct. So... does anybody know why it tries to access "...Packages.diff/Index" instead of "...Packages" ?00:53
timelesshttp://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:cE6QIfmalz4J:ftp.mgts.by/debian/dists/testing-proposed-updates/contrib/binary-i386/Packages.diff/+Packages.diff+Index&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=200:54
timelesssuch files are real in some repos00:54
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Stskeepsevening00:57
PhantomWell... I see, but this is some other distro, it's usual debian, not maemo... Am I wrong ?00:57
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timelessmaemo is a debian derivative00:59
timelessso errors you get or patterns you see are often the same00:59
Stskeepsdiff is fine, it is a way to receive patches/diffs instead of whole packages01:00
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PhantomI mean that since there are no such files in repo it tries to install from, so there must be some workaround to make it install things from where they are.01:00
timelessjust download the individual files :)01:01
PhantomBut as I said before, it refuses to install some debs telling that they are incompatible while they were downloaded manually from the same repo.01:02
timelessyou can read application manager's log from the menu01:03
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PhantomI checked the log and there are error lines I understand, but don't know how to deal with. (will try to post here in a few moments)01:07
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PhantomHere are the errors in package manager log:01:13
PhantomE: Encountered a section with no Package: header01:13
PhantomE: Problem with MergeList /var/lib/apt/lists/catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com_certified_dists_chinook_user_binary-armel_Packages01:13
PhantomE: The package lists or status file could not be parsed or opened.01:13
* timeless wonders if tableteer stopped hosting chinook content01:15
* timeless cries01:18
timelessanyone here use modest?01:18
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Phantomand later there are even more strange lines:01:18
Phantomapt-worker[1996]: GLIB CRITICAL ** GLib - g_strsplit_set: assertion `string != NULL' failed01:18
Phantomapt-worker[1996]: GLIB CRITICAL ** GLib - g_strsplit_set: assertion `string != NULL' failed01:18
PhantomW: GPG error: http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com chinook Release: The following signatures were invalid: NODATA 1 NODATA 201:18
PhantomW: GPG error: http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com chinook Release: The following signatures were invalid: NODATA 1 NODATA 201:18
PhantomE: Failed to fetch http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/certified/dists/chinook/diablo/binary-armel/Packages.gz  404 Not Found01:18
PhantomE: Failed to fetch http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/non-certified/dists/chinook/diablo/binary-armel/Packages.gz  404 Not Found01:18
PhantomW: Couldn't stat source package list http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com chinook/diablo Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com_certified_dists_chinook_diablo_binary-armel_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)01:18
timelesschinook/diablo?01:19
Phantomchinook01:19
timelessum, it says chinook/diablo01:19
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PhantomI fixed that. But .../chinook/... doesn't work anyway :(01:25
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* Stskeeps starts 0.7 imagdr01:40
Stskeepsimager01:40
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* timeless reads http://mxr.maemo.org/diablo/source/modest-1.0-2008.23/src/modest-tny-account-store.c?mark=643-652#62302:04
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PhantomHmm I think I somehow broke the package management system... but cannot restore it without root access.02:12
PhantomI probably could fix things if that was a usual debian system, but maemo with restricted access is pain02:13
Phantomtimeless: can you suggest something ?02:14
timelesswell02:15
timelessi'd really suggest reflashing :)02:15
timelessbut really02:15
timelessdo you have a second computer of any kind02:15
timelesscapture-root will let you setup a /root/.ssh/authorized_keys file based on /home/user/.ssh/authorized_keys02:16
timelessyou can drop in one from a normal computer (for which you have the key!)02:16
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timelessyou could also just package a standalone shell which is suid02:16
timelessand then install it and use it to do whatever02:16
timeless-- assuming you haven't completely broken application manager02:17
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PhantomYes, I have a notebook I currently working on.02:25
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PhantomI think it wrote something wrong in /var and now can't underst what it did.02:27
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timelesshey, in theory, modest is open source, right?02:48
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GAN800timeless, yes.02:55
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timelessgan: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=406103:06
timelessso03:06
timeless"Untranslated error occurred, get a better mail client"03:07
timeless? :)03:07
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* timeless ponders03:30
timeless# GNU copyright 1997 to 1999 by Joey Hess.03:30
timeless# Copyright 2004-2006 Nokia03:30
timelessdoes that really make sense?03:30
johnxno03:31
johnxI was trying to figure out a way for that to make sense, but I really can't03:31
johnxwhat is a "GNU copyright"?03:35
johnxand how did it get transferred to Nokia?03:35
johnxAlso: What was this software doing from 2000 to 2004?03:36
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ana`timeless: is that from a debian/rules file? sounds like the usual stuff that debhelper templates have03:41
timelessincluding the 'Nokia' bit? :)03:42
timelessjohnx: all very good questions03:43
timelessana`: sure, but see johnx's response03:43
ana`well, the nokia bit is surely a late addition, the Joey Hess' line sounds like somebody who used debhelper and left all the default stuff in the rules file03:44
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mikem`hi, i'm having trouble getting maemo mapper to download google maps. was wondering whether the google map repository url found here is still valid? http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520904:07
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mikem`hm, nevermind, all I had to do was "Download Sample Repositories" and i'm set. (yep, i'm a maemo noob)04:11
johnx:)04:11
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zakkmHey, Is Mer worth trying yet?04:49
timelessit works04:50
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* timeless is glad to see there's a 'file format' menu in the mail app04:51
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Macerwtf is the ahl?05:36
Macerlike.. poor man's hockey?05:36
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timeless~mer ?07:51
timeless~mer07:51
timelessinfobot mer?07:51
infobotsomebody said mer was http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer07:52
infobotmer is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer07:52
infobot[mer] http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer07:52
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Livingroomhey anyone up? i need some help. specifically:08:42
Livingroomi did an apt-get upgrade on my n800. it broke; fortunately, i was booting from MMC; how can i go in and disable the lifeguard reset, using the internal flash installation?08:42
timelE61ilifeguard is controlled by fashertool08:45
Livingroomoh08:45
Livingroomwell i get an endless boot loop. is it worth it to go get a livecd and try to disable lifeguard? or should i just reinstall?08:45
timelE61iPlay dead is controlled by presence of power - remove battery for a while08:46
Livingroomremove the battery? ok08:46
timelE61idon't leave it alone if you disable lifeguard08:47
Livingroomwhat do you mean?08:47
Livingroomdont leave it alone08:47
timelE61iLight a fire in a forest08:48
timelE61iDo you walk away?08:48
Livingroom...08:48
Livingroombut this is a pda, not a forest08:48
Livingroomit never even leaves my house mostly08:48
timelE61iif you'll excuse the metaphore, disabling life guard isn't supported08:50
timelE61iPerhaps it voids your warranty08:50
Livingroomif it lets the device boot, ill be happy08:50
timelE61iIf it does and the device burns up08:50
timelE61iBecause you were out...08:50
Livingroomwell, what do you reccommend that i do to recover?08:51
timelE61ibAby sit it :)08:51
Livingroomwhat i mean is, how do i stop the bootloop?08:51
timelE61ipull the battery :)08:51
timelE61iWhat data is on there that you need08:52
timelE61iCan you mount it in a normal computer?08:52
Livingroomall i have is windows08:52
Livingroomi could try in a livecd, but linux isnt my first OS, so i wouldnt know how08:52
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* timelE61i avoids this stuff08:53
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Livingroomwhat if i just ran through the instructions for booting from MMC again, and just recopied over the good install? but if i apt-get upgrade again, it'll just break. argh08:53
Livingroomordinarily i can boot safe from a lilo prompt and read the /var/log- but this device does not afford me this opportunity08:54
timelE61idid you install syslog?08:54
timelE61iBecause normally it ain't there08:54
Livingroomi'm fairly certain i did08:55
timelE61ithere are ext2/3 viewers for windows08:56
timelE61iFind a readonly one and read the log08:56
Livingroomi have a working partition on the device though, cant i just mount from there?08:56
timelE61ihow uncomfortable is your win box08:57
Livingroomnot uncomfortable at all?08:58
timelE61iTypicallyy i prefer real keyboards and big screens for log file reading08:58
Livingroomwell, you see the thing is08:58
Livingroomi SSH into it and voila08:59
Livingroombig screen and keyboard. plus with my dual monitors i'm set08:59
Livingroomnot to mention the BT keyboard08:59
timelE61iand busybox....08:59
timelE61iYEck08:59
* timelE61i goes af-phone08:59
timelE61ieither will work09:00
timelE61iGood luck09:00
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Livingroomanyone around?09:15
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LivingroomAHA09:22
Livingroomi got it mounted09:22
Livingroomnow i have syslog information.09:23
Livingroomanyone wanna see?09:23
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Livingroomit seems to be choking on volume level09:35
Livingroomit says Jan 18 01:15:49 Nokia-N800-51-3 ke_recv[1005]: unmount_volumes:833: couldn't unmount /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/volume_uuid_b8ccb54c_8792_4f62_8fd8_23a8acff23e609:36
LivingroomJan 18 01:15:49 Nokia-N800-51-3 exiting on signal 1509:36
Livingroomtime's off too09:36
Livingroomany idea how to fix that?09:36
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timelE61ithere's a date/Time applet in control panel09:45
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Livingroomwhere can i get the most up to date sources.list for my n800?10:15
timelE61ierr10:19
timelE61iDiablo is the latest release10:19
timelE61ithere aren't more than 2 main repos10:20
timelE61iEverything else is stuff you choose10:20
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Livingroomis there a list of repos for n800 or maemo compatable stuff?10:37
Meiz_n810gronmayer.com/it10:38
Stskeepsonly ones you really want is the nokia repos, and10:38
Stskeeps~extras10:38
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, extras is http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras10:38
Stskeeps(and extras-devel)10:38
Meiz_n810most of the repos in gronmayer.com/it are useless10:38
Livingroomhm10:38
Livingroomok10:38
Livingroommainly i'm trying to install this turbocharge debian package10:38
Livingroomand it wont go, because it says it cant be found.10:38
Stskeepsit's in extras-devel i believe10:39
Stskeepsor in extras10:39
Stskeepsdid you upgrade to diablo?10:39
Livingroomdiablo?10:39
Livingroomhow do i tell?10:39
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Meiz_n810do you have the latest tablet firmware by nokia?10:40
Stskeepswell, did you upgrade to latest firmware from tablets-dev.nokia.com10:40
Livingroomnope10:40
Stskeepsyou ought to :P10:41
Stskeeps~flashing10:41
infoboti guess flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware10:41
Stskeepsmakes things a lot easier10:41
Livingroomok10:41
Livingroomwill do10:41
Livingroomwhat will i lose?10:41
Livingroomi've already lost one partition.10:41
Livingroomhad to reclone10:41
Livingroomcan i clone diablo to mmc the same way as the other one?10:42
Stskeepsyes10:42
* Stskeeps gets ready for a mer 0.6 release10:42
Livingroomkksweet10:42
Stskeepser, 0.7.10:43
Livingroomwhats mer?10:43
Stskeeps~mer10:44
infobotfrom memory, mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer10:44
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Livingroomhmm10:45
Livingroomi'm guessing it's not yet stable10:45
Stskeepscorrect, but usable, but has quirks10:46
Livingroomhm10:46
Livingroomill wait for stable10:46
Stskeepshehe10:46
Livingroomi need mine for certain dedicated tasks; cant afford it to have quirks :)10:46
Stskeepsor try out the VMDK release :)10:46
glassstable is just a name10:46
Stskeepsfor x86 / virtualbox / vmware10:46
Livingroomwhat started as an apt-get update ended up in a total reflash and reclone tonight10:47
Stskeepsyeah, apt-get dist-upgrade is harmful on maemo10:47
Livingrooms/update/upgrade10:47
Livingroombut10:47
Livingroommy main thing is10:47
Livingroomi have to have A) dosbox B) the lcars theme that is so awesome and C) this new debian thing that looks f*cking wicked10:48
Stskeepsheh, whereas mer is based on ubuntu and easy debian is useless in that instance :)10:49
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Stskeepsexcept for the wrappings within xephyr or the likes10:50
Livingroomhmm10:50
Livingroomholding the swap key is not putting me into that usb mode. what should i do?10:50
Livingroomoh10:50
StskeepsN800, N810?10:50
Livingroomyou're supposed to turn it on10:50
Livingroomwhile holding the key. it didnt say that :P:10:51
Livingroomwow10:51
Livingroomi had firmware 2008se_2.2007.51-310:51
Stskeepsse? :P10:51
Livingroomis that old?10:51
Stskeepswhat tablet type do you have?10:52
Livingroomi'm guessing that's ancient.10:52
Livingroomprobably what it shipped with eh?10:52
Stskeepsyeah, probably10:52
Livingroomthe n80010:52
Stskeepswhich are you upgrading to now?10:52
Livingroomthe latest diablo10:52
Stskeepsk10:52
Livingroomdiablo_5.2008.43-710:52
Stskeepssounds right10:53
Livingroomshould i be expecting things to be like ridiculously different? like faster etc?10:53
Stskeepspossibly10:53
Stskeepschinook -> diablo has its benefits10:53
Livingroomhm10:53
Livingroomi anticipate great things!10:54
Livingroomwill i lose my wep and BT settings?10:54
Stskeepsyeah, you probably would have wanted to run a backup before flashing10:55
Stskeepsbut anyway, this step is a benefit to you.10:55
Stskeepsto get rid of old settings and such :P10:55
Livingroomi wont be restoring any backups10:56
Livingroomdont want old datas10:56
Livingroomcramping my style10:57
* Stskeeps notes v0.7 vmdk works and gets on to testing next things10:57
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Livingroomgod10:57
Livingroomit feels fast10:57
Livingroomlike10:57
Livingroommaking the jump from 486-25 to 486 DX2/6610:57
Stskeepshehe10:57
Stskeepsthat's unfair to the 400mhz processor in it ;)10:58
Livingroomhehe10:58
Livingroomit's an OMAP isnt it?10:58
Livingroomthats like10:58
Livingroompackard...bell... or something10:58
Stskeepseh.10:59
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qwerty12texas instruments10:59
Stskeepsyeah, what the kid wiz said10:59
Livingroomyeah10:59
LivingroomTI10:59
LivingroomTI-OMAP10:59
StskeepsLivingroom: it also beats the hell out of x86 in terms of power usage :P10:59
Livingroomthe celeron of the ARM architecture10:59
Stskeepsi'm not so sure anymore really10:59
Livingroomxscale beats them all, imo10:59
Stskeeps..10:59
* Stskeeps gets out a baseball bat and bad experiences with alignment traps11:00
Livingroommy dell axim x50 used to run ~1100mhz11:00
qwerty12:(. My pocket pc was only overclockable to about 600mhz :/11:00
Livingroommine was a late model with the new xscales11:00
Livingroomcould run it fairly stable at 100011:00
Livingroom1100 was pushing it11:01
Livingroomof course i had to buy a 3300mah battery for it11:01
Livingroomto run it for more than like 15 minutes11:01
qwerty12hehe11:01
mavhcxscale was so good intel bought it and killed it, just in case11:01
Livingroomi hate them for that.11:02
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mavhcintel did try to kill x86 with ia64, but they weren't able to destroy the monster they had created11:02
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Livingroomi remember when there was an ipaq in every color, flavor, cpu, speed, screen type, dock size and usb speed.11:03
Livingroomand ipaq was the lamest name ever11:03
Livingroomnext to maybe "ipod"11:04
mavhcI have an ipaq, won't turn on11:04
Livingroombut they sold by the kajillions11:04
mavhcflashes on for half a second, then turns off again11:04
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Livingroomhm11:04
Stskeepsdead battery?11:04
mavhcdon't think so, you have do so a weird hard reset thing for it to try to turn on at all11:05
Livingroomwhats that cool control panel for maemo with the brightness and volume on the same screen11:06
Stskeepsadvanced backlight11:06
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Livingroomkk11:08
Livingroomi am LOLCATS of BORG. lower your shields and surrender your ships...11:08
mavhcI can has phaser?11:08
Livingroomlol11:11
Livingroomyou'll never guess what i just did.11:11
Livingroomnever in a million years11:11
Livingroomand if you did, i'd give you a billion dollars.11:11
mavhcsat on your cat?11:12
Livingroomnope11:12
Livingroomi just typed in the cheatkeys for commander keen 4 that my sister is emulating on her netbook with dosbox... so she can have GOD mode11:12
mavhcdoes the billion dollars rise with inflation over the million years?11:12
Livingroomlol@mavhc11:12
Livingroomcrazy thing is11:13
Livingroomi remembered them11:13
Livingroomand it's been like... 20 years since i played that11:14
Livingroomok so iv'e got diablo up11:14
Livingroomhow do i add the extras repo?11:14
qwerty12~extras11:14
infobot[extras] http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras11:14
mavhc7 things to get right, god mode is about 1 in 5, dosbox 1 in 5, netbook 1 in 5, sister 1 in 5, specific game 1 in 10000, and typing cheatkeys is what, 1 in a million?11:14
mavhcso 1 in 6250000000000 chance11:15
Livingroomwe could narrow it down to "typed in the cheat keys for keen 4"11:15
mavhcso if I had 1 guess every 5 seconds I would have got it11:16
Livingroomin how long a time?11:16
mavhc1 million years11:16
Livingroomhm11:17
Livingroomok11:17
mavhc(1 million years) / 6 250 000 000 000 = 5.04910816 seconds11:17
Livingroomah11:17
Livingroomwell then11:17
Livingroomwhats a billion dollars inflation adjusted for a million years from now at our current rate in the US?11:17
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mavhclet's say 2% inflation? 1 000 000 000 * (.98^1 000 000) = 011:18
mavhcgot a more accurate calculator?11:19
mavhcafter 1000 years it's $1.6811:20
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Livingroomhm11:20
Livingroomis easy-deb-chroot worth it?11:20
Livingroomdoes it actually "boot" its own "OS" or is it just like an overlay?11:21
qwerty12an "overlay" on top of maemo. If you want full, booting debian, you should install deblet11:21
StskeepsLivingroom: glorified chroot11:21
wndmavhc, echo 'scale=1000000000000; 1000000000*(.98^1000000)' | bc11:22
wndbe warned it might take a while11:22
wnds/a w/aw/11:23
infobotwnd meant: be warned it might take awhile11:23
Livingroomholy crap11:23
Livingroomyour channel does that?11:23
mavhc"a while" is better I think11:23
Livingrooms/your channel does that?/your channel is very cool.11:24
Livingroomhmm11:24
qwerty12You forgot to end it with the /11:24
Livingrooms/your channel does that?/your channel is very cool./11:24
qwerty12and it only works on the last sentence you typed11:24
Livingroomlolz11:24
mavhcbit daft really, the human can parse much better11:24
* Stskeeps curses his imager11:25
mavhcif it was a client side script that actually editted the history, would be cool11:25
Livingroombrbbio11:25
mavhcI don't have a fast linux computer ATM, someone formatted it and put win2k3 on it11:26
wndno wonder I never learned it: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/awhile.html11:27
Livingroomgeez already screwed up11:30
Livingroomwent and installed a bunch of crap on internal. meant to clone first *SIGH*11:30
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Stskeepsmorning Meizirkki11:31
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Livingroomhmm11:33
Livingroomenable R&D mode through the red pill method on diablo?11:33
Meizirkkimorning Stskeeps11:33
StskeepsLivingroom: there's no good need for enabling R&D mode11:33
Stskeepsjust install rootsh11:33
Livingroomi'm guessing rootsh allows for su - root?11:34
Macercrank cracks me up11:34
StskeepsLivingroom: yeah, sudo gainroot or whatever, or just rootsh11:34
Livingroomk11:35
Livingroomalso11:35
Livingroomsshd11:35
Livingroomfor remote access11:35
Stskeepsgrab openssh-server from extras..11:35
Livingroomgot it11:36
Livingroomback in business LOL11:36
Livingroomopenprojects...err. i mean freenode has always been my source of help. thank you guys so much just for exsisting11:37
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* Stskeeps tests 0.7 snapshot11:39
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* Stskeeps notes that crash wasn't expected.11:40
Livingroomapt-get install e2fsprogs11:40
Livingroomgives:11:40
LivingroomPackage e2fsprogs is not available, but is referred to by another package.11:41
MeizirkkiEnable extras-devel for that11:41
Livingroomo11:41
Livingroomit wasnt int he list11:41
Stskeepsthere's one on ~extras11:42
Livingroom~extras11:42
Macercrank is a pretty funny moie11:42
Macermovie11:42
infoboti guess extras is http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras11:42
Macernever saw it before11:42
RST38hSts11:42
Stskeepsmm?11:42
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RST38hnothing, just saying hi11:43
Stskeepsah, morning :)11:43
Livingroomah got it11:44
Livingroomthanks11:44
Stskeeps~curse ports.ubuntu.com11:44
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, ports.ubuntu.com !11:44
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Livingroombah11:47
Livingroomis it mount -o /dev/mmcblk0p2 /opt ?11:48
daperl~sleep11:48
infobotsleep is, like, overrated, and a poor substitute for caffeine.11:48
Livingroomalso, apt-get isnt finding nano or pico.11:48
daperl~zombie11:48
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infobotLibrary and server for developing networked apps/games.. URL: http://www.infa.abo.fi/~chakie/zombie/11:48
MeizirkkiLivingroom: enable diablo-tools repo for nano11:49
LivingroomAAAAUGH11:49
Livingroomso many sources11:49
Meizirkki:P11:49
Livingroomwhere is diablo-tools hidden11:49
Livingroom~tools11:49
infobothmm... tools is just because the tools are free doesn't mean that you get to completely ignore all the rules and guidelines11:49
* Stskeeps is just looking forward to mer being stable so he uses it for everyday-work11:49
Livingroom~diablo-tools11:49
Livingroommer looks ok but needs a new name. "Mer." is just kinda weird11:49
Livingroomit's like naming your investment bank "ING"11:50
StskeepsLivingroom: makes perfect sense really. sea, "more" in swedish, etc.11:50
MeizirkkiLivingroom: search diablo tools from gronmayer.com/it11:50
Stskeepsit's a new type of ecosystem :P11:50
Stskeepsand trust me, after dealing with maemo for quite a while, stuff like Mer is a blessing :)11:51
Livingroomwell11:51
Meizirkki"Mer" means noting in finninsh, but "Meri" means sea. :)11:51
Stskeepshehe11:51
Livingroomas an original early adopter of the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA... i can say that maemo is A GODDAMN BLESSING on the mobile linux community.11:52
Stskeepsoh, we have Mer going on zaurus too.11:52
Livingroompeople still use those?11:52
Stskeepsseemingily11:53
Livingroomwow.11:53
daperlbut i always use less, not more11:53
Stskeepshehe11:53
Stskeepsi am a less fan too, but less is more featureful than less :P11:54
Stskeepsthan more11:54
Livingroomthis describes my adventures tonight: http://xkcd.com/349/11:54
Livingroomwhat started as an apt-get upgrade culminated in a reflash, an upgrade, two reclonings, and the reinstallation of all my apps.11:54
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Stskeepshehe11:54
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Livingroomapps... AND SOURCES!11:55
daperl~passed out11:55
* Stskeeps gives daperl some coffee11:56
MeizirkkiStskeeps: epiphany-gecko is stable, fast, it has adblocker and it doesn't eat as much memory as midori takes. Epiphany-gecko has a change to become my day-to-day browser once Mer has a bit better power management. If there would be finger scroll, could it be used as a Mer default browser?11:56
Livingroomwhat package contains the "locate" command?11:56
StskeepsMeizirkki: possibly, right now we're not focusing on that part11:56
Meizirkkiokay11:57
MeizirkkiThere's a mouse scroll, but it uses middle click :P11:57
Stskeepshehe11:57
* daperl spills scolding brew on crotch, now wide awake11:58
qwerty12Interesting method...11:59
Livingroomscolding brew? if my coffe talked to me, i'd stop drinking it11:59
daperlmcdonald's drive-through on-the-way-to-work method12:00
daperldid i mean scaulding? (sp.?)12:00
Livingroomscalding i think12:01
daperlthanks12:01
RST38hLivingroom: Now is a good time to switch back to Windows =)12:01
daperlthrow it out the window12:01
Livingroomwhy's that?12:01
RST38hLiving: reflash, upgrade, two reclonings, reinstallation of all apps12:02
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Livingroomoh lol12:02
Livingroomnow i cant find my locate command AAAUGH12:02
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Livingroomwhy cant i 'locate' or 'updatedb' ?12:03
RST38hBecause your gadget is borked.12:03
Stskeepscos maemo is a embedded system12:03
Stskeeps:P12:03
qwerty12debfarm repo used to have mlocale package but debfarm seems to be down12:03
qwerty12s/mlocale/mlocate/12:03
infobotqwerty12 meant: debfarm repo used to have mlocate package but debfarm seems to be down12:03
Livingroomoh god i cant live without locate12:04
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* Stskeeps watches imager go at it and hopes apt doesn't f*ck up again12:08
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Livingroomhmm12:29
Livingroomi did the cloning and12:30
Livingroomit didnt give me a boot menu12:30
Livingroomwhat gives?12:30
Livingroomi skipped option 0 because i already had a partition...should i have done it anyway?12:30
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daperlif you don't have a small dos partition as your first you're asking for it12:32
Livingroomi do12:32
Livingroomi've done this before so the partition table was intact12:32
daperlgotcha12:33
Livingroomno lilo menu though12:33
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Livingroomdamn12:34
Livingroomthe clone was messed up12:34
Livingroomi mounted mmcblk02 on /opt and all i have is a lost+found12:34
daperlthat's not good12:34
daperlyou want quick and dirty?12:35
Livingroomwhat do you mean?12:35
Livingroomi'd love quick and dirty. cp -a / to /opt?12:35
daperlif you're in flash you have to to remount the flash root say to /floppy12:36
Livingroomsupposedly thats what this shellscript is doing12:36
daperlwell, if it failed let's try it manually12:37
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daperlthat's how i always do it12:38
Livingroomi just dont understand why there's no bootmenu12:38
daperllook at /mnt/initfs, is there a bootmenu.sh there?12:38
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Livingroomthere is not12:39
daperlyou're initfs_flash failed12:39
Livingroomi'm just going by these steps here http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=863112:40
Livingroomare there more i'm not aware of?12:40
daperlwell, you seem pretty savvy, so you might want to take more control12:41
LivingroomOH SHI-12:41
Livingroomi missed step #612:41
daperlare you on it?12:42
Livingroomno, i'm past it now. but it's recoverable12:42
Livingroomstep 6 does not seem critical to the whole op12:42
daperli never use anything but the fanoush script12:43
Livingroomthats the one i forgot to use12:43
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daperland i partition and copy root manually12:44
Livingroomyikes12:44
Livingroomi'll pass.12:44
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daperldon't pass, it's a one-liner12:45
daperldo you have the url to his site?12:45
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Livingroomhttp://fanoush.wz.cz/maemo/#initfs ?12:46
* daperl is getting url12:46
daperlsi12:46
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daperll are you giving it a go?12:50
daperls/l/Livingroom/12:51
infobotdaperl meant: Livingroom are you giving it a go?12:51
Livingroomyeah12:51
Livingroomflashing initfs now12:51
Livingroomused custom bootmenu.conf, gutwrench time12:51
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daperldo you want me stick around, 'cause i'm gonna pass out?12:54
daperls/me/me to /12:55
infobotdaperl meant: do you want me to  stick around, 'cause i'm gonna pass out?12:55
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Livingroomhmm12:55
Livingroomsomething went wrong12:55
Livingroomyou can pass out if you like12:55
Livingroomi just did something strange in bootmenu.conf is all12:55
daperldid you get the menu?12:56
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daperland did you remember to copy over a root fs?12:57
Livingroomi do have the menu12:57
Livingroomdont know about that copy over a root FS thing, btu12:57
Livingroom*but12:57
RST38hhm12:57
* RST38h wonders how many hours it will take Livingroom to sort things out =)12:57
Livingroomhehe12:58
Livingroomthe good news: McDonalds is now serving brekfast12:58
daperlorder off your boot menu12:58
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RST38hdaperl: You do not want him to crash and brick McDonalds, do you?13:00
daperltoo funny13:02
Livingroomlol13:02
Livingroomi cant make it set a default boot item13:02
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StskeepsMeizirkki: waiting for 0.7 images to build (i had fucked something up in the initial run i did last night), and if you have bw left enough i would love some testing13:05
daperl~cal-tool13:05
MeizirkkiStskeeps: okay13:06
lcukRST38h, did you want me last night13:06
lcukmornin btw, and ello Stskeeps Meizirkki etc13:06
Meizirkkimorning lcuk :)13:07
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RST38hlcuk: no, was just saying hi =)13:08
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lcukfurry muff :)13:08
LivingroomHURRAY13:08
LivingroomSUCCESSFUL BOOT OF IMMC2 AT 5:08AM 02/01/08!13:08
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lcukwhats goin down in mer town then - have we got a decent system now13:09
daperlcool, night night13:09
Stskeepslcuk: 0.7 coming out today, and yeah, it is more usable than 0.613:09
Stskeepswe have an xterm and such :P13:09
lcuknice i saw jaffa has put h-i-m in, and something about the control panel - is that all modules?13:09
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Stskeepshildon application manager yeah, and control panel with the status bar applet config13:10
Stskeepsi'm not sure what API they have but it sure as hell could have been better.. :P13:11
lcukits always a battle between desires and practicality13:11
timelessum13:11
timelessqwerty?13:11
timelessxchat blinks way too much13:11
timelessit's bad for my battery13:11
timelessit it needs my attention, it should use a task notification13:12
timelessnot a blinking icon (two actually!)13:12
Stskeepstwo? on maemo it's only one, i think13:12
timelessnope,two13:12
qwerty12That's the sort of thing that probably should be taken up with upstream13:12
timelesson in status bar13:12
timelessone in app list13:12
qwerty12You can disable the status bar one13:12
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timelessdo me a favor and file it?13:13
timelessi can file it and have andre__ refile if you ask13:13
timelessbut i'd rather not13:13
lcukare we gonna have xchat in the default install?13:13
lcuk:D13:13
Stskeepswell it isn't an official xchat hildonizing :P13:13
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timelesstimeless_mer13:15
timeless/query timeless_mer13:15
timelesspoke13:15
Livingroomafk guys13:15
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timelessqwerty: what's a tray baloon13:17
timelessand why can't i see it?13:17
qwerty12Extremely annoying, believe me. You have to install some libnotify stuff to see them (never tried on tablet, did it in ubuntu and hated it).13:18
timelessheh13:18
Livingroomwhat repo has dosbox?13:18
Stskeepsextras i think13:19
Livingroomhmm13:19
qwerty12pupnik's build is on his site13:19
Livingroomi have extras installed, but ...no dosbox13:19
qwerty12http://pupnik.de/dosbox.html13:19
Livingroomhmm13:20
Livingroomhow to install a deb locally, though. interesting...13:20
Stskeepsdownload and double click it?13:21
Stskeeps:P13:21
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Stskeepsjohnx: http://i.gizmodo.com/5143547/how+to-install-ubuntu-on-your-ps3-for-vintage-gaming-emulation <- another possibility for Mer/powerpc ;)13:27
des^lol13:27
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LivingroomAAAAAAAAAAAAAUGH13:40
Livingroomwhy dont they build mobile devices WITH BUILT IN MATH-CO PROCESSORS?!?!13:40
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Livingroomit's called a floating point unit.13:40
Stskeepsthey're slow? :P13:40
LivingroomUSE IT FOR GODS SAKE13:40
mavhcwhy do you want floating point?13:41
qwerty12N8x0 has a vfp...13:41
Livingroomvirtual = sux0rs13:41
Livingroomit needs a dedicated FPU.13:41
herz1Stskeeps: that not true nowadays13:41
mavhcthey have DSPs13:41
Stskeepsherz1: true, that was a totally unfounded statement from me :)13:43
Livingroomso how are these fools on youtube running KDE on the N800?13:43
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suihkulokki Livingroom: the "v" in vfp is not for virtual, please google before flaming13:44
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Livingroomv for ...vendetta? no. i googled; i see it means vector. what does that mean?13:45
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mavhcit's dsp-ish?13:47
herz1Livingroom: maybe the just replay a video recorded on the desktop?13:48
herz1*they13:48
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Meizirkki!!!13:52
Meizirkkifennec is in jaunty repo13:52
Meizirkki:13:52
Meizirkki)13:52
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timelessif it's there, i don't see it13:56
timelessis it not in user/ ?13:56
qwerty12Probably not, I don't think jaunty people cater for h-a-m's needs13:57
timelessaww, we need to fix that :)13:58
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timelesssp3001: how do i kill application manager when its stupid catalogs dialog is open but not responding?14:05
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timelessqwerty...14:05
timelessYou are connected to 1 IRC networks14:05
timelessif it can't count to 1, it should use network(s)14:06
timelessif it can, it should avoid showing the s :)14:06
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* timeless tries to install fennec14:12
Meizirkkifennec in mer is just as crappy it's in maemo14:15
Meizirkki:(14:15
Stskeepsscrshots?14:15
Meizirkkisec14:16
RST38hWas it a surprise? :)14:17
MeizirkkiRST38h: nope :P14:17
Meizirkkibut it seems to be even worse14:18
Meizirkkifont is really small...14:18
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MeizirkkiStskeeps: couple of screenshots: http://trac.tspre.org/meiz14:20
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RST38hThey are releasing WinMobile version real soon now, so rejoice! =)14:20
* RST38h did make himself write initial 65816 emulation14:21
StskeepsMeizirkki: mmkay14:21
RST38hbtw what is roope? can we have it in diablo? =)14:22
Macer__last time i tried fennec on my n800 it kinda sucked14:23
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slonopotamusshow me, please, bootmenu config file for mer14:29
Stskeepshttp://rafb.net/p/VgRhQq17.html14:29
slonopotamusthx14:30
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slonopotamusITEM_FSOPTIONS="noatime,ro" ???14:31
Stskeepsyeah14:31
slonopotamuswtf?14:31
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Stskeepsmounting the fs noatime and read-only like kernel does it14:31
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slonopotamuswho remounts in rw?14:32
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Stskeepsthe init scripts, when having done fsck14:32
slonopotamusk14:32
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slonopotamusi'm still fighting with init :(14:33
slonopotamusi can't get text console right for some reason14:34
slonopotamusor it looks like i can't :)14:34
slonopotamusanyway, it doesn't boot14:35
slonopotamusgone for reboot14:35
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wazdhey everybody)14:47
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Macerwow... democrats have a 60/40 lead in the senate14:48
Macercrazy14:48
timelessfrankin won?14:48
timelessor the other one?14:48
Macerthe guy from NH14:49
wazdit's chaaaange!!!1114:49
Macerhaha14:49
Macerholy fuck that is a huge senate lead14:49
Macernot to mention the HoR14:49
RST38hhey awazd14:49
Macerobama is going to be able to just streamline shit through14:49
wazdYes we can!11 Yes we caaannn!21114:49
RST38hWhat Senate?14:49
timelessthere's only one that matters14:50
RST38hAh, THAT Senate14:50
Macerhahaha14:50
* RST38h gets some peanuts, popcorn, and prepares to watch the next season of this macabre soap opera14:50
Macerdemocrats control 60 senate seats14:50
wazdRST38h: heya :)14:50
Macerthat is outrageous14:50
timelessgot a url for this?14:51
timelessi can't find it14:51
StskeepsMacer: well just shows the republicans -really- fucked up :P14:51
AStormor that your new dark-skinned (political correctness ;) ) leader has really good press14:52
AStormbtw, hello14:52
* wazd don't care bout US&A senate, wazd cares bout animated icons )14:52
Maceri'm watching it on c-span14:52
MacerAStorm hahaha14:52
wazdAStorm: "dark-skinned is offencive!14:53
wazdAstorm: afro-american!14:53
AStormwhatever14:53
AStormI could've said just black14:53
soapless offensive than you nearly saying "darkie"14:53
wazdAStorm: Yes we can!1114:53
wazdxD14:53
AStormsoap: I think so too, some people actually think it *is* offensive to call someone black. Damned fascists.14:54
mavhche hasn't got an afro, can't call him afro-american, what about skinhead, that can't be offensive?14:55
AStormuhm, it can14:55
mavhcwhat do you call non american black people?14:55
RST38hmavhc: negroes?14:55
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AStormmavhc: I'd call them black or African, maybe negro?14:56
mavhceveryone's african14:56
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RST38hmavhc: Even poor guys who happened to be born outside Africa?14:56
AStormthey were there longer, yes14:56
AStorm:>14:56
mavhcI prefer "human"14:57
RST38hmavhc: that is offensive too14:57
mavhcwithout the quotes, with is just wrong14:57
RST38hmavhc: it destroys one's heritage by using a race/nationality/etc neutral word14:57
AStormyes, it sounds communist14:58
Macerwow .. there really is NOTHING to watch on actual tv14:58
AStormyou're damned by that already14:58
mavhcMacer: welcome to 200114:58
Maceri don't understand why networks aren't going bankrupt along with everybody else14:58
RST38hSounds like "hummus" too. I feel offended now.14:58
mavhcpeople are retarded14:58
RST38hMacer: Give 'em time.14:58
mavhc50% of people have a 2 digit IQ for a start14:58
Macercspan2 has a guy that is so white.. he is making the things around him glow calling himself a "Muslim Historian"14:58
Macerhahha14:58
RST38hAt least one US senator is blue/silvery-skinned14:59
mavhcalien14:59
RST38hI wonder what you would call THAT14:59
Stskeepssmurf.14:59
Stskeeps:P14:59
mavhche's a US senator? I'll bet on calling him and old white guy14:59
Macerthere are 5 white people... who are obviously not muslim.. sitting at a table all talking about their book Blind Spot14:59
RST38hOffensive to smurfs.14:59
mavhcobviously?15:00
Macerwhich is about how people don't get Islam15:00
RST38hMacer: A moment, lemme locate that article...15:00
mavhcmaybe they converted15:00
Macermavhc - like malcolm X?15:00
Macermost white people of this caliber go to club fed15:00
Maceri don't think there is much need for muslim conversion there in order to protect yourself15:01
AStormmavhc: nah15:01
AStorm50% *can't* have 2-digit IQ15:01
AStormor the scale would be broken15:01
AStormIQ is relative15:01
AStormto others in the same population15:01
mavhcwhat muslims need is a crazy spinoff religion where rich people pay15:01
AStormabout 20% are expected to have IQ of 10015:01
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AStorm+/- 515:01
mavhcAStorm: I'm using floating point15:01
AStormhave a bell curve ;P15:02
Macer20 federal agencies are protecting the super bowl15:02
mavhcexactly, 50% above 100, 50% below15:02
RST38hEnjoy the good senator for now: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2297471.stm15:02
Maceramazing15:02
AStormyes, so?15:02
mavhcwhat's so super about this bowl anyway, does it stop your ceral getting soggy?15:02
AStormwith 100 being the expected average15:02
suihkulokkimost people think they are smarter than average ;)15:02
AStormand IQ precision is about 10 points15:02
AStormof most tests15:02
mavhc99% of people surveyed thought they were better than average drivers15:02
AStormyou can have that much variance15:03
Ziccan you confirm that the ARM v6 cpu on the N800 is more powerful than a ARM v4 processor on a Freerunner ? they are both cadenced à 600Mhz15:03
Zics/à/at/15:03
AStormmavhc: idiots ;P the *average* is the average15:03
infobotZic meant: can you confirm that the ARM v6 cpu on the N800 is more powerful than a ARM v4 processor on a Freerunner ? they are both cadenced at 600Mhz15:03
Maceri would figure that the NFL would pay for super bowl security15:03
Macernot the taxpayers15:03
mavhcAStorm: is your point lots of people are exactly 100?15:03
AStormmavhc: but it's the known individualistic delusion15:03
AStormmavhc: lots are very close to 10015:03
Macer20 federal agencies for a football game?15:03
AStormthanks to bell curve15:03
mavhcAStorm: 50% of those very close are below, 2 digits15:03
AStormyes, so?15:04
AStormas I said, IQ tests aren't precise enough15:04
mavhcso 50% of people have 2 digit iq15:04
wazdZic: I think n800 CPU is 400 MHz or something15:04
suihkulokkiMacer: yes, in case someone shows a nipple15:04
suihkulokkiyou can never be too carefull15:04
Zicwazd: yes it is, just a typo, sorry15:04
AStormtrue, but 2-digit eq close to 100 doesn't tell you if a person is stupider than average15:04
AStormtoo much noise15:04
MacerNBC made 206M$15:04
Zicwazd: but performances are "visible" between v6 and v4 ?15:04
Macerwhy aren't they paying for some of this crap ?15:04
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AStorm(the expected range for most "average" people is 90-100-110)15:05
AStormof course, if the test (different) is taken many times, the actual noise should average out15:06
AStormand you get your own true value15:06
RST38hMacer: Enjoy: http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=7031&IBLOCK_ID=35&phrase_id=2063715:07
mavhcAStorm: 68.27% of people are between 84-11615:07
AStormyes15:07
AStormclose to 50 between 90 and 10015:07
AStorm90 and 110 (stupid keyboard!)15:08
AStorm33% between 84 and 10015:08
StskeepsZic: vfp ability prolly helps in some cases :P15:09
AStorm*you* might be there and think yourself above average ;P15:09
RST38hAStorm,mavhc: just want to point out that IQ value cannot be weighted against the whole population simply because you do not have the numbers for the whole population to get the mean from15:09
ZicStskeeps: vpf ability?15:10
AStormRST38h: but we have representative groups, almost as good15:10
RST38hI.e. it may be weighted against some data computed some time ago, for some group of people15:10
AStormyes15:10
mavhcRST38h: but we can have a confidence interval15:10
AStormpopulational was considered at one time15:10
AStormbut it looked as if people were getting dumber with time15:10
AStormso they threw the idea out the window15:10
StskeepsZic: http://syslog.movial.fi/archives/46-N800-VFP-or-not-to-VFP.html15:10
AStorm(as in, old people = stupid)15:10
Stskeepswhich armv4t doesn't have, AFAIK15:10
AStormand they noticed a few sharp jumps in IQ too15:11
RST38hAStorm: Well, the amount of IQ given to Earthlings by the Wise Tentacled One is constant while the population is constantly increasing...15:11
AStorm(in age groups)15:11
AStormuh, no15:11
AStormactually, using older measures of IQ, it's increasing slowly, linearly15:11
RST38hMacer: BTW, I can personally sign under each word of that article. It does look gross if you haven't watched it for a while.15:11
AStormbut there were a bunch of spikes (both up and down)15:12
AStormthat's why now IQ is measured in age groups, not whole population15:12
AStormsome people tried to prove that race determines IQ... actually, they failed15:13
AStormenvironment does though15:13
AStorm(a bit)15:13
RST38hAStorm: Let us just assume that the gradual increase in Earth's global IQ is a product of Tentacled One's gastrointestinary processes15:14
AStormthat's why you can expect an average Afro-american to score similarly to slums White.15:14
mavhcreally need more ram in internet tablets, does it affect battery life?15:14
AStormRST38h: or global warming ;P15:14
AStormmavhc: try compcache!15:14
RST38hAStorm: Which leads us to a simple solution15:14
AStormmavhc: it shouldn't affect battery life a whole lot15:14
AStormI'd expect 2-3%15:15
mavhcneeds more ram then, anyone good at soldering? :-)15:15
RST38hAStorm: By feeding part of the world population to the Tentacled One, we both decrease population and increase His gastrointestinary activity thus increasing avreage human's IQ15:15
AStormmavhc: uhhh, OMAP 2 doesn't support more I think15:15
AStormYou'd have to wire in a controller15:15
mavhcah15:15
RST38hmavhc: you are screwed there, I am afraid...it is integrated into one of the chips15:15
AStormRST38h: prove it15:15
AStormalso, who is that Tentacled One (I know the True Name)15:16
AStorm;P15:16
mavhcwhen they say all-in-one chip, they mean it then15:16
AStormRST38h: it's not15:16
AStormit's a separate DRAM chip, controller *is* integrated though15:16
AStormbut, you could abuse Linux15:16
AStormhave RAM look like flash chip15:16
AStormthen, use it for swapping15:16
AStormpeople actually did that15:17
mavhca literal ram disk15:17
AStormyes15:17
ZicStskeeps: thanks, but even if VFP or not VFP... :) A friend told me that the ARM v4 processor on the Freerunner is really slower than the ARM v6 (without speak about software influence, just hardware theory)15:17
RST38hAStorm: Heres is the canonical image of the Tentacled One *explaining* a few technical details to Nokia engineers: http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/absurdopedia/images/8/8b/Wageslave_large.jpg15:17
AStormmavhc: btw, try compcache already15:17
Zic(ARM v6 which is on N8*0 IT)15:17
mavhcwithout software all cpus are limited to 9.8m/s/s15:17
AStormmavhc: limited to what?15:18
RST38hAStorm: Well, if I understand GAN's explanation correctly, it is an integrated DRAM+NAND chip15:18
StskeepsZic: i wasn't positively impressed by the freerunner when spending some days nearby it15:18
RST38hAStorm: So, no hope upgrading it15:19
mavhclimited to gravity15:19
AStormRST38h: it is, but that doesn't stop you from adding another one15:19
AStorm:P15:19
AStormRST38h: except that RAM controller supports 256 MB afaicr15:19
suihkulokkiRST38h: they are not *integrated* they are *stacked* - omap + dram + nand on top of each others15:19
AStorm(but flash does support much more)15:19
AStormyes15:19
AStormof course, you can't rip out any15:20
AStorm:P15:20
ZicStskeeps: ah ! you are interesting me, what's your opinion about Freerunner ? (in comparaison with N8*0 IT, because I'm hesitating to sell my Nokia IT because I order a Freerunner recently)15:20
AStormbut, there are spare pins15:20
RST38hsuihkul: From the point of view of a guy with a soldering iron, that is integrated =)15:20
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StskeepsZic: i'd keep the NIT personally and only buy freerunner if you want to hack things on to it15:20
AStormRST38h: yes, *but* you can add another chip.15:20
AStormexactly one another chip :P15:20
Stskeepsif you want an actual usable phone, get a cheap nokia :P15:20
RST38hFreerunner is pretty useless as a consumer device15:21
RST38hNIT is actually useful15:21
AStormRST38h: not that it'd be easy, adding traces to the CPU15:21
ZicStskeeps: I own an HTC Touch, and yes, it runs Windows Mobile ;-(15:21
AStormactually, I'd call it "bloody hard"15:21
AStormor "nigh-impossible"15:21
ZicRST38h: but NIT does not have any GSM modem ;-)15:21
AStormdepending on your skill with adding sockets and availability of reflow15:22
Zicand I don't want to use my Freerunner as an Internet device, just a beta phone15:22
StskeepsZic: next one will have hsdpa15:22
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johnxhallo :)15:22
AStormmeh, even a socket won't do, unless you make one15:22
Zic(I kept my HTC Touch for every days phone)15:22
AStormjohnx: hi15:22
StskeepsZic: in term of openness and such, HTC touch is probably even more useful than freerunner :P15:22
Zic(even if it runs the *evil* Windows Mobile)15:22
ZicStskeeps: you are right :P15:22
AStormmavhc: so, you're most likely out of luck here15:23
AStormmavhc: you'd have to add a few traces to CPU pins15:23
AStormmavhc: for now, try out compcache to save some RAM at CPU time cost15:23
RST38hZic: A cheap slim Samsung will save your day15:23
AStormbtw, could someone package that kernel module?15:23
ZicStskeeps: about the hsdpa, just 3,5G connection, or GSM too ?15:23
RST38hZic: At a really competitive cost too15:23
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StskeepsZic: i suspect gsm too, else always-on is kinda bad :P15:24
AStormRST38h: I have one cheap slim Samsung myself :P15:24
AStormthis U700 has a nasty habit of USB hanging after you use bluetooth15:25
AStormand a few weird touch buttons15:25
ZicStskeeps: I don't like GSM modem (even if I need a phone...), just a cellular data connection an not a GSM will be fine15:25
AStormother than that, it's fine15:25
StskeepsZic: GPRS is GSM ..15:25
Stskeeps:P15:25
RST38hAStorm: ah who care about USB on it...15:25
RST38hcares15:25
AStormRST38h: I do, when I connect it to the laptop15:25
AStormto use as a modem15:25
AStormbluetooth is limited too 300 kbps or so15:25
RST38hAStorm: It just has to call and provide GPRS over BT15:26
AStorm*to15:26
AStormyes15:26
AStormbut BT is too slow for some reason15:26
AStormI don't know why, it does support all the fast protocols15:26
ZicStskeeps: hmm, afaik, HSPDPA exists without GSM modem (?)15:26
StskeepsZic: yeah, probably15:26
RST38hYou can probably get a slim S40-based Nokia or an E51 for the same purpose15:26
AStormGSM != GPRS15:26
RST38hBut it will be more expensive15:26
Stskeepsjust saying that it would be useful to include 2G in 3G chipset :P15:27
RST38hSts: Isn't it there by default?15:27
AStormStskeeps: that was mentioned to be in next NIT15:27
AStormto make normal calls15:27
AStormRST38h: need not be, but may15:27
ZicStskeeps: size of NIT are not very confortable to make normal call :)15:27
StskeepsRST38h: not sure. people were pissed off to not have 2g access on iphone 3g i think15:27
AStormactually, the difference is software15:27
Stskeepsi'm not talking about calls.15:27
Stskeepsi'm talking about data.15:27
AStormStskeeps: that would be stupid on Apple part15:28
AStormas the only difference is modulation15:28
AStormand turbo symbols15:28
AStorm(not used in EDGE)15:28
Zicno, hypothetic GSM modem for the next NIT or next NIT+1 ?15:29
Zics/no/so/15:29
infobotZic meant: so, hypothetic GSM modem for the next NIT or next NIT+1 ?15:29
RST38hSts: iPhone is a different animal15:29
AStormZic: yes, I think it was confirmed officially even?15:30
AStormfor the next one15:30
rzrhi15:30
Stskeepslo rzr15:31
rzrsome links are broken on mer 0.7 page15:31
Stskeepsyes, i know15:31
rzrok15:31
Stskeepsit's in the process of being released15:31
rzrok great15:31
rzri'll review it soon15:31
Stskeepsi was delayed by a freaking race condition15:31
ZicAStorm: for the codenamed unofficially by the community "N900" ? I just heard about a "cellular data connection thanks to HSDPA, but nothing about a GSM modem15:31
Zic(if somebody can confirm...)15:31
rzrStskeeps: take your time15:32
Zicmaybe N900+1 will come with a GSM modem ? :P15:32
AStormZic: it has to support those distress calls15:32
AStormso, definitely GSM15:32
AStormmaybe hardcoded, but still15:32
RST38hZic: It will have to have GSM15:32
* Jucato will diea of jealousy if the next IT will have built-in GSM features...15:32
Zicoh, ok15:32
Zicthanks ;)15:32
RST38hAStorm: N900 does not have to support distress calls15:32
RST38hAStorm: Because it is not a phone15:33
StskeepsRST38h: i'm really really starting to wonder if they are making it into a phone15:33
Zichmm, but canibal issue into Nokia : N97 and "N900" ? both phones ?15:33
Stskeepsthe pre-alphas are showing -really- weird stuff15:33
AStormin some parts of the world, it is required for any device with call functionality15:33
AStormusing GSM networks15:33
RST38hAStorm: OTOH, as they will most likely use the same baseband hw as used in their phones, it will most likely have GSM15:33
AStormyes15:33
AStormthat too :)15:33
AStormeven if they don't implement it fully, we'll have a nice hacking ground15:33
* RST38h suspects voice calling will be disabled though, 2G or 3G15:33
Zicrsalveti: disabled on software ?15:34
Zicor hardware ?15:34
AStormRST38h: unlikely, I suspect it will be done fully in hardware15:34
AStormas a special soundcard or such15:34
AStormmuch easier than writing the software15:34
Zicbecause if hardware supports 2G and/or 3G and does not have software function to work, maybe some hackers can... hack :)15:34
AStormhope they will describe it enough15:34
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RST38hAStorm: Normally, it is done on a separate chip (usually 50-90MHz ARM) that is provided by another manufacturer15:37
RST38hAStorm: Connected through I2C or a similar bus and talking AT command set, for most features15:37
Stskeepsthere's a BB5 in the tablets already, probably not that difficult :P15:37
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Zichave we got some infos of the release date for the next NIT ?15:40
RST38hZic: summer 2009, approximately15:40
RST38hZic: Check iTT for all the other rumors15:40
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Zicoh, I already check :D15:40
* RST38h is out, picking flowersss15:40
Zic:)15:41
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AStormRST38h: yes, but what about audio IO?15:41
AStorm:)15:41
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ZicRST38h: do you think that, even if software does not support it, with installing third-software like Zhone, we will can make calls with the next NIT so ?15:52
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timelE61iyOu could install skype!15:53
timelE61iWell, at least you could for the n800/n810 :)15:53
ZicSkype is evil, like my actual Windows Mobile phone ;-)15:55
Zicbut I could configure my tablet as a VoIP phone only too, yeah :P15:55
Stskeepsskype on n8x0 keeps me and the fiancée close when she's abroad15:56
Stskeepsit's really nice :)15:56
Zic(you use the word "fiancée" in english ? huhu)15:57
Stskeepsi'm a dane :P15:58
Zicand I'm french :)15:58
johnx"English doesn't borrow from other languages, it mugs them in dark alleys and rifles through their pockets for loose grammar."16:00
Stskeepsmorning johnx16:00
timelE61iisn't the accent on the last e?16:01
timelE61iBut yes, we import french words16:02
timelE61iNaïve ...16:02
ZictimelE61i: I know for somes words, like we import english words in french, but not for "fiancée" or "naïve"16:02
Zicand the accent is on the first e, yes :)16:02
timelE61iCoöperate (although rarely properly written?16:02
* timelE61i isn't certain about that word's heritage16:03
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Zicwe have the verb coopérer in french... but not coöperate word16:04
Stskeepsjohnx: waiting for 770 build, been a little delayed due to a stupid race condition in NFS + imager16:04
wndhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_French_origin16:04
Zicwnd: oh, I don't know about this page :)16:04
johnxStskeeps, sounds awesome. I'm definitely going to kick the zaurus hardware support and imager into shape for feb1516:07
timelE61iok, seems we inserted the accent on our own, but i'd assume the word root came from the french16:07
Stskeepsjohnx: got early vmdk and n800 tar.gz if you wanna test quickly16:10
Stskeeps770 takes a bit of time so16:10
johnxStskeeps, grabbing the .tar.gz, eating curry+rice :)16:14
Stskeepswhat tar.gz? :P16:14
johnxthe one you'll tell me about? :D16:14
Stskeepsah, yes16:15
Stskeepswe so need an animation between the dialogs..16:15
johnxyup, I can do that.16:15
johnxI'm probably going to refactor that script O_O;16:15
Stskeepshehe16:16
johnxit's a little unwieldy16:16
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* Stskeeps notes idly that checking for packages update time is inversely proportional to the amount of packages it shows16:19
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gomiamStskeeps: that would point to the discarding algorithm being somewhat flawed.16:22
Stskeepsgomiam: well, Hildon Application Manager is not built for showing all the Ubuntu packages :)16:23
gomiamoh XD16:24
Zichttp://www.nokian900.com/nokia-n900-internet-tablet-rumors/#more-1516:24
Zicdon't know his source but he say : Nokia N900 will have support for Quad-band GSM, HSDPA, WiMAX, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth.16:24
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Zic"Quad-band GSM"16:24
johnxZic, that makes sense16:24
* Zic take a look at his Freerunner order16:24
Zichmm :>16:24
johnxI've never heard of an HSPA chipset that didn't also support GSM/GRPS...16:25
Zicjohnx: in somes old pre-netbook family, yes it exists16:25
Stskeepssuccess on VMDK, N8x0 image16:25
Stskeeps, rootstrap16:25
Zicbut in a portable device, you are right16:25
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johnxwonder if we'll see wimax in the same device as HSPA...16:26
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Stskeepsdoubtful re wimax.. unless they put in a software defined radio or something16:26
Stskeeps:P16:26
Stskeeps(which would be leet, btw. :P)16:27
johnxacually, that page looks more like a wishlist...16:27
Stskeepsor a adsite16:27
johnxyes. it looks like that too16:27
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johnxI think I'm most curious about form factor and price at this point16:28
Stskeepsjohnx: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Releases/0.7 btw - impressive what has happened in 14 days :P16:29
johnxit only took 14 days to make the page blank?16:29
Stskeepswtf.16:29
Stskeepsnot again.16:29
Stskeepsctrl-f5 :P16:29
johnxyeah, shift-control-r16:29
Stskeepsor ctrl-r :P16:29
johnxctrl-r didn't cut it16:30
Stskeepsmaemo.org messing up i thin16:30
Stskeepsk16:30
johnxwe really have no luck with our hosting, huh?16:31
Stskeepshey, last open source project i had was cursed. it bankrupted the hosting companies16:31
Stskeeps:P16:31
johnxO_o16:31
johnxheh...but then again, it was somewhat popular :)16:32
Stskeepsno clue why but i have seen quite a big deal of bankruptcies in donated hosting16:32
johnximagine that16:33
johnxand it seemed like such a solid business plan, too :)16:33
Zic"As Nokia N800 and Nokia N810 were criticized about the big sizes, it seems the N900 will be a bit smaller, just like iPhone, with a 3.5″ display."16:33
Zichmm16:33
johnxZic, that's an adsite16:33
Stskeepsprobable bullshit :P16:33
Zicjohnx: I know, but just imagine :)16:33
mavhcwho criticized it? it fits in your pocket, qed16:34
ZicNIT will become just smartphones...16:34
Zicone day ;)16:34
johnxmavhc, well, lots of people said it was too big to hold up to your face and make calls with16:34
johnxZic, well, they are changing the name...16:34
mavhcit's not a phone, stop holding it up to your face you plonker16:34
* Stskeeps uses headset extensively16:35
Stskeepsworks a lot better16:35
Stskeepstablet in pocket16:35
johnxmavhc, the next one will likely be making calls at least...16:35
johnxStskeeps, are you one of those people who wander everywhere with a bt headset in your ear?16:35
Stskeepsjohnx: no, n800-provided headphones16:35
Stskeepsbut that's just when i'm on the road16:36
wazdAny hardware deails bout n900 are 99% crap)16:36
mavhcjohnx: better than walk around with a phone on your ear16:36
wazddetails16:36
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johnxmavhc, but I mean *all the time.* There were people at my last job who put them in in the morning and took them out before bed16:37
johnxI assume they took them out anyways...16:37
Stskeepsborg people16:37
Stskeeps:P16:37
mavhccybermen16:37
mavhcdid they have 2?16:37
johnxex-military O_o16:37
Stskeepsborg.16:37
Stskeeps:P16:37
Stskeeps;)16:37
johnxhey, he got stuff *done* and no mistake16:38
johnxbut you can never tell if he was talking to you or to the voices in his head...16:38
Stskeepshehe16:38
wazdAbout the storage, Nokia may have 16GB internal storage capacity, as well as a miniSDHC slot to extend it to your needs.16:38
wazdwho wrote that?)16:38
Stskeepswell as long as he was turning a good profit from the voices in the head..16:38
mavhcso really what you want is a big flashing light on his head when he's online16:38
johnxwazd, how about 32GB and microSDHC :)16:38
mavhcminisd is dead16:38
wazdThe web browsing will be done using an Internet Browser from Opera, supporting all common standards.16:38
Stskeeps....16:38
Stskeepswtf16:38
johnxwazd, that's what triggered my bullshit meter :)16:39
wazdThe author of that site is a total dumbass)16:39
johnxwazd, but he's making money off ads for sure :)16:39
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Stskeepslo b-man16:39
mavhcgo and click all his ads a lot, trigger the fraud detector16:39
johnxmavhc, I guess I should get my own borg goggles and some detectors so I can tell who is talking on the phone...16:39
b-manhey, Stskeeps :)16:40
gomiamjohnx: ads? I saw no ads... ooops, got Adblock :P16:40
johnxgomiam, I only block ads when they piss me off...but when I do I block the whole domain. It's kind of a survival of the least annoying competition :)16:40
gomiamjohnx: you allot too much time to ad-blocking. I haven't got enough braincells for that ;)16:41
johnxgomiam, my workflow looks like this: ad blinks -> right click -> block -> select domain -> ok16:42
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johnxtakes about 5 seconds and I only had to block 10-20 domains before there weren't any blinking ads left :)16:42
gomiamjohnx: I have a click disability, you insensitive clod! ;)16:42
qwerty12_N800If the only ads on the internet were Google's text adsense ones, then I wouldn't be using adblock16:42
mavhcget over yourself then16:42
mavhcqwerty12_N800: except when there's so many there's no blank space to click16:43
johnxin that case the site is a lost cause :) just like people who do layout in flash16:43
qwerty12_N800mavhc, hmm, good point16:43
wazdoh, iphone will get sort of flash at last)16:44
gomiamtrue, true16:44
wazdmaybe nextgen16:44
johnx(&*$% flash16:44
mavhcwhy can maemo do flash but apple said iphone couldn't?16:44
johnxmavhc, nokia paid up. apple didn't16:44
gomiammavhc: couldn't or... wouldn't?16:45
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johnxalso, apple probably had an internal beta of flash and found it ran too slow16:45
timelE61ioR hot :)16:46
timelE61iFlash is bad for battery life16:46
johnxif apple saw the flash performance on the n8x0 they'd probably say 'better nothing than something this slow.' That's the apple 'think different' mentality: better to give people no solution, than an 80% solution16:46
mavhccathedral view16:47
timelE61iApple knew they could direct the market and vendors would cater to apple16:47
timelE61iIt happened16:47
wazdjohnx: well, I woudn't say that they are completely wrong with this)16:48
johnxyeah. i bet adobe is kicking themselves now for not managing to make apple license flash for 10 million freaking phones16:48
timelE61iWhy waste money confusing the market w/ multiple incomplete paths16:48
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johnxin this case, I do agree with apple: flash on the desktop is an 80% solution at best. flash on mobile stuff isn't worth it16:49
mavhchow's gnash doing?16:49
johnxlooks ok. I wonder if it's fast enough to play youtube videos on ARM...16:51
mavhcwhat codec does the flash video on youtube use?16:51
johnxflv16:52
timelE61ithat's a container16:52
timelE61iNot a codec16:52
johnxah, then I have no idea :)16:52
timelE61ihistorically it was vp616:55
timelE61i(people could read the wikipedia article, it's faster than waiting for it to d/l to my phone's browser)16:56
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AStormnowadays flash vids still use vp616:57
AStormmost of the time16:57
mavhcthere's no post h264 codec in flash 10 anyway16:58
AStormmhm16:58
AStormok, people16:58
AStormI need someone to build me compcache16:58
AStormthe kernel module and tools16:59
AStormjust to test it16:59
AStormhttp://code.google.com/p/compcache/17:00
AStormany volunteer?17:00
timelE61iI think newer stuff used h264 instead of vp617:00
AStormtimelE61i: hmm, no17:00
AStormyou *can* use h26417:00
AStormvp6 is still the default17:00
AStormh264 is very hard on CPUs, so not widely used, if anywhere17:00
tank-manits used on ipods and psp17:01
tank-manthose are widely used17:01
AStormin flash?17:01
tank-manno, but that codec17:02
AStorm^17:02
AStormyes yes17:02
AStormbut they have powerful dedicated hardware decoders17:02
timelE61idEdicated hardware at times is a myth17:02
AStormyes, sometimes17:03
AStormmight be fast software implementation on a DSP17:03
AStormstill, fast17:03
timelE61ioR horribly slow/unusable hardware impl17:03
* timelE61i silently grumbles @ti17:03
AStormh264 is demanding though17:03
timelE61ioh sure17:04
AStormhttp://code.google.com/p/compcache/wiki/Performance - let me have it17:04
AStormplease?17:04
timelE61ibUt it's shiny17:04
johnxAStorm, sure. I'll build it for zaurus-akita 2.6.2817:04
AStormjohnx: what about building it for maemo's 2.6.21?17:05
johnxAStorm, eh. I'm happy with 128MB of RAM17:05
AStorm2.6.21-nokia-omap that is17:05
AStormjohnx: I'm not with 256 MB, I tend to open a few pages, start a few apps17:05
AStormthus, compcache would help17:05
johnxah, you should install scratchbox17:06
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AStormyes, I should.17:06
AStormBut it's work and I still don't have the time17:06
johnxless IRC :)17:07
AStormholidays come in a few weeks17:07
AStormI think I'll need a few days to get it started17:07
b-manStskeeps: i seem to be having an error with bzr commit -m; http://pastebin.ca/132449617:07
AStormIRC takes close to 0 time, it is possible to interleave :P17:07
AStormmultitasking and all17:07
Stskeepsb-man: cd merinstaller; then try? :P17:07
johnxAStorm, you have an ubuntu box or a machine that runs vmware?17:07
b-manoh :P17:08
AStormjohnx: the latter, but no huge bandwidth17:08
AStormand no ISO d/led yet17:08
johnxI'll take one shot at it? you sure it's ok building against 2.6.21?17:09
AStorm3 Mbit and 6GB transfer limit17:09
AStormjohnx: not sure, it's likely it won't17:09
AStormbut it doesn't use advanced stuff anyway17:09
AStormso might workd17:09
AStorm*work17:09
AStormneed someone to try and possibly send me error output17:09
AStormI'll know what to fix and will send the patch17:10
johnxok, I'll give it a quick shot17:10
johnxbut only cause you said please earlire :)17:10
AStorm:D17:11
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b-manStskeeps: i'm getting a similar error with bzr :(17:36
johnxhmmm...the psion netbook pro sure looks interesting :D17:36
AStormjohnx: so, what about your quick shot at building?17:36
johnxAStorm, bleh :P still working on getting a nokia kernel compiled17:37
AStormyou don't have to17:37
AStormjust make prepare17:37
johnxwell, if I'm going to do this, there are modules I want for myself anyways :)17:37
AStormbe sure to set the options for n810 or copy .config17:37
AStormah17:37
AStorm:>17:37
johnxah, n810 or n800 doesn't matter, right?17:38
AStormit does a bit17:38
AStormnot for compcache though17:38
johnxok, good17:38
johnxI thought n800 and n810 shared a kernel image?17:38
AStormcompcache is a filesystem, so no special internal stuff17:38
AStormthey don't17:38
AStormmany low-level things are different17:38
AStormnew linux-omap might support that, not sure17:39
AStormbut that one definitely doesn't17:39
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johnxAStorm, have you looked at any of the execute in place stuff?17:40
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AStormflash is too slow for that, and you can only do that from the NAND flash17:41
AStormas a bonus, you'll lose wear levelling *if* it works17:41
AStormso, no, didn't bother17:41
johnxlose wear leveling *totally* or just make it less effective?17:41
AStormEIP is for ext2 in memory or fast flash that looks like memory17:42
AStormor ROM17:42
johnxah, what about the new one connected to UBIFS? (IIRC)17:42
AStormno idea.17:42
AStormI didn't bother, it won't be any faster than flash itself anyway17:42
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AStormthe most important point is that the filesystem has too look like memory17:43
AStormuhm, s/filesystem/block device/17:43
johnxah, so directly randomly addressed?17:43
AStormyes17:44
AStormthere is a flash driver that does simulate memory17:44
johnxalright, this kernel build should go fast, then I'll try the module17:44
AStormbut it doesn't do wear levelling I think17:44
AStormmaybe UBIFS does17:44
AStormstill - pointless17:45
AStormas you have to load the data anyway17:45
AStormyou lose just one copy to ram17:45
AStormand file caching17:45
AStorm(EIP fs is not cached)17:45
johnxI'm thinking about my poor little zaurus that's under a lot more memory pressure than the n800...17:45
AStormyes, it has half the RAM17:46
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johnxyeah. and swapping to SD is no fun17:46
AStormI probably couldn't even run the apps I do on n81017:46
johnxdefinitely not17:46
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AStormeven with tricks17:46
johnxit's pretty bogged down just running hildon-desktop17:46
AStorm:>17:46
AStormNokia 770 also has 128 MB17:47
johnxnope. 64MB17:47
johnxI'm trying to figure out the best swap settings17:47
AStormah17:47
AStormwait17:47
AStormwe have... 128 MB here or...17:47
AStormI shall check17:47
johnxN8x0 is 128MB17:47
AStorm128 MB too on n81017:47
AStormyeah17:47
johnx770 and (most of the) zauruses are 64MB17:47
AStorm:P17:48
mavhcreally we need smaller apps, they're too bloated17:48
mavhcrisc os on arm has 600k DTP programs17:48
johnxmavhc, volunteering to do some optimizing? some rewriting?17:48
AStormmavhc: make me a smaller web browser *now*!17:48
johnxdoes risc os have a web browser?17:48
AStormfully featured17:48
johnx^^17:48
AStormirc client can't get much smaller than irssi17:48
mavhcit has 617:48
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AStormthough xchat is fairly small17:48
johnxmavhc, and they show google maps well?17:49
AStormwe could slim the environment some17:49
mavhconly the firefox port I expect17:49
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AStormmavhc: which probably eats as much ram as it does here ;P17:49
johnxalright, that's *more* bloated than browsers for arm linux17:49
AStormwe could use uclibc17:49
AStormthat should save quite a bit of ram17:49
johnxat least we have midori and tear17:49
AStorm:>17:49
mavhcdid jaffa every get round to the netsurf port?17:50
johnxand even tablet browser UI + gecko is lots lighter than firefox17:50
johnxsooo, maybe the RiscOS guys should look at getting some less bloated apps...17:50
AStorm:P17:50
AStormheck, fennec is the epitome of bloated17:50
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AStormjohnx: 64 MB just doesn't cut it for most modern software17:51
mavhcjohnx: there's not up to date native apps, netsurf, which doesn't have JS, and a ff port17:52
AStormeven with a tiny desktop env17:52
AStormkernel grabs, let's say, 8 MB17:52
johnxAStorm, yeah, the modern software is mostly ok. the web browser is the killer17:52
AStormindeed, or maemo-mapper17:52
johnxmavhc, it's silly to talk about RiscOS vs Linux unless you're talking feature vs feature17:53
AStormand the email app (excluding mutt)17:53
mavhcdon't see why videocenter, canola, etc, can't be 1MB17:53
AStormcanola is Python17:53
AStormif rewritten in C, using same libs, it'd be about 1/3 the size17:53
AStormright now it's like, 20 MB?17:53
Macershit17:53
AStormand it has a lot of graphics17:53
Macerjust went on a wii zelda binge17:53
Macerhaha17:53
Meizirkkijohnx: latest firefox is almost usable17:53
AStormMeizirkki: on 64 MB? really?17:54
AStorm:P17:54
Meizirkkinope17:54
Meizirkki12817:54
Macerbought the game almost 6 months ago and decided to start playing it today17:54
AStormfennec is17:54
b-manlol17:54
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AStorm(though rendering sometimes is slow, they have to improve the ui)17:54
johnxmavhc,  I don't see how. even mplayer is 4.5MB...17:54
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b-manjohnx: sorry to interupt but could you help me with this? http://pastebin.ca/132453217:55
AStormjohnx: that's true :P17:55
AStormfitting canola UI + mplayer into 8 MB is certainly possible17:56
AStormcanola UI + scanner17:56
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AStormassuming not overly large graphics17:56
johnxb-man, ls -a /usr/libexec/dev/sorce/deb/merinstaller17:57
johnxb-man, is that the folder that has the .bzr directory in it?17:57
b-mank17:57
b-man.bzr? - do i need to make one?17:57
AStormno17:57
AStormyou use bzr clone17:57
AStormunless you want to start a new repo17:58
AStormthen, bzr init afaicr17:58
johnxyeah that's right17:58
johnxwhat is bzr get an alias for?17:58
* johnx RTFMs17:58
AStormbazaar17:58
mavhcgraphics should be compressed in ram, any codecs should be loaded at playback time17:58
AStormmavhc: compressed in ram? you must be joking17:58
AStormblitting would eat tons of CPU17:58
johnxmavhc, and who is offering to do this work?17:59
* b-man iss trying to update status for merinstaller17:59
AStormunless you have an unpacker in the graphics chip17:59
b-manre:is17:59
AStormand we probably don't17:59
AStorm(excluding the unknown PowerVR)17:59
mavhcAStorm: just simple compression, still have uncompressed vram17:59
AStormmavhc: and each blit is decompression17:59
AStormslow.17:59
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AStormit's a framebuffer, after all18:00
mavhchow often do you have to redraw it?18:00
AStormoften enough18:00
johnxmavhc, the screen? 30 times per second during an animation18:00
mavhcthe UI isn't redrawn that often, only when the screen changes18:00
AStormunless it's some specialized compression, you'd have to unpack whole images18:00
AStorminstead of compression, you could use vector UI18:01
AStorme.g. SVG18:01
johnxmavhc, again: if these are such great ideas, why aren't the people who actually do the work using them?18:01
AStormand cache renders18:01
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AStormthat would work just as fast18:01
mavhcbecause they only care if their app runs, not if it runs when 3 other apps are running? or because they want to optimise last, after all the features are complete18:01
AStormmavhc: that, and it is no gain either18:02
mavhccacheing renders means it's using the same amount of ram18:02
AStormE libs support compressed images btw18:02
AStormso does firefox (used for large images)18:02
AStormX server might support them18:02
mavhcso it's not a crazy idea18:02
AStormno idea if it does18:02
AStormit's not, but it's not useful either18:03
AStormwhy do you have to keep the images in memory? - so that X server can display them18:03
AStormif X server doesn't support compression directly, you've a problem18:03
mavhcbut we're not constantly redrawing the UI, there's no overlapping windows for a start18:03
AStorm...18:03
AStormthere *are* overlapping windows.18:03
AStormbuttons are windows.18:03
AStormsong scrollbar is a window18:04
AStorm(think X)18:04
mavhcok, there's no overlapping drawing18:04
AStormat least X server caches fonts18:04
AStormyes, so you don't actually have to pull them from the X server after you upload18:04
AStormagain, X server would have to support that compression thingy18:04
johnxb-man, http://pastebin.ca/1324547 from inside merinstaller I would be able to do bzr commit -m "my message"18:05
keesjhttp://fosdem.org/2009/schedule/events/emb_maemo_beagleboard18:05
AStormfirefox works around by uploading parts of image to X server if it's large18:05
AStorm(the visible ones)18:05
b-manjohnx: ok18:05
mavhcit's just a side effect of running apps written for devices where ram use isn't a problem18:05
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AStormno18:06
AStormit's not.18:06
AStormit's a side effect of having an X server w/o support for compressed formats18:06
johnxkeesj, ah, very interesting. so the goal is to modify maemo as little as possible, correct?18:06
AStorm:P18:06
AStormmavhc: be thankful that apps don't have to manage the images themselves18:06
AStormso you end up with 2 copies18:07
keesjjohnx: I don't really know, I just and mainly wonder about the development process out there18:07
AStormkeesj: fremantle should work on that out of the box18:07
mavhcso does the xserver just redraw images without talking to the app? the app just tells it what area of ram the image is in?18:07
johnxAStorm, define "out of the box"18:07
AStormjohnx: as in "almost the same hardware"18:07
AStorm:P18:07
AStormmavhc: the app and X server throw around XIDs18:08
johnx"out of the box" != "some hacking required" :P18:08
keesjAStorm: and as "A safe change"18:08
AStormjohnx: it will "work" w/o hacking18:08
AStormat least, most features18:08
AStormthe hardware is so similar.18:09
mavhcwhat if it's a vector art program redrawing?18:09
AStormmavhc: so it's usually like: move this XID there18:09
AStormmavhc: then it has to blit to a bitmap first18:10
AStormor maybe use X drawing routines directly - but these are lacking in features18:10
mavhcso it's stored once in vram, and once in ram18:10
AStormyes, so? you can use shm18:10
AStormas in, XShm extension18:10
AStormnah, even that won't work18:11
AStormyou'd have to be able to mmap the vram18:11
johnxkeesj, is there any more info available on that project?18:11
AStormor mmap X server memory18:11
johnxaaaah...just realized it was a presentation, not a project18:11
johnxdurrr18:11
AStormanyway, no zero-copy is possible then18:11
* b-man really hopes he did not screw anything up at mer-committers in bzr :P18:11
mavhcAStorm: but after rendering you could delete and rerender upon the next request for that rectangle?18:11
johnxb-man, in the worst case we can revert, so don't worry18:12
AStormmavhc: yes18:12
keesjit's next week at fosdem.18:12
b-manhehe18:12
AStormmavhc: obviously, at a CPU cost18:12
johnxb-man, plus, it doesn't end up on launchpad until your run bzr push ...18:12
mavhcit's all a cpu vs ram tradeoff18:12
AStorma lot of CPU for a tiny bit of RAM.18:12
b-manah, ok :)18:12
AStormrendering, say, SVG uses a lot of CPU18:13
AStormit's much cheaper to hold the image and modify it18:13
mavhcyes, but what about RLE compression?18:13
mavhcfor the previous case of bitmap compression18:13
AStormRLE of those bitmaps?18:13
AStormagain, if X server supports compressed formats18:13
mavhcthe pre vector discussion18:13
AStormand the gfx card does...18:13
AStormotherwise it will have to be unpacked somewhere18:13
mavhcor you decompressed on the fly when asked for the rectangle, then deleted the decompressed version again18:14
AStormalso, modifying the image obviously will require a decompression18:14
AStormyes, you could do that18:14
Stskeepsb-man: did you push too?18:14
mavhcbecause in a general use case on maemo the UI isn't redrawn more often than once a second in a worst case18:14
AStormno idea if decompressing all those PNGs will be fast enough18:14
b-manStskeeps: i'm still having issues :P18:14
johnxmavhc, uhm, except when anyone is doing anything18:15
Stskeepsb-man: like?18:15
AStormand *especially* rendering SVGs won't be worth it18:15
mavhcjohnx: eg?18:15
AStormjohnx: they're not changing the images18:15
mavhcsvg is way too slow, but a simple vector format would be ok, it's what everyone did in 8bit days18:15
AStorm:)18:15
b-manStskeeps: http://pastebin.ca/1324532 - and i can't find a way to fix this18:15
johnxAStorm, but he wants to delete the uncompressed version, and we don't have saveunders I think18:16
mavhcI'd rather have a media player that used 1MB of ram and didn't look pretty18:16
AStormyou don't?18:16
AStormthus, our X server is unaccelerated18:16
johnxmavhc, then use mpd+ncmpc18:16
AStormmavhc: problem solved?18:16
AStormother than that, XMMS is smaller than canola18:16
qwerty12Or mpc even =)18:16
AStormwhat's more, you can drop the file walker process18:17
Stskeepsb-man: first off, you put the merinstaller in /merinstaller, not /usr/libexec/dev/sorce/deb/merinstaller/ :)18:17
johnxor write your own mpd frontend in assembly with direct vector graphics printed to the framebuffer18:17
mavhcgoogles....well, I want a gui, but don't bother with album art and themes18:17
b-manStskeeps: ok18:17
AStormmavhc: again, we have a build of old xmms18:17
AStormuse it18:17
johnxmavhc, if you link in gtk+ and hildon you're already outside your memory requirements18:17
AStormjohnx: gtk+ is shared18:17
AStormso is hildon18:17
AStormoh, not xmms18:18
AStormbmp rather18:18
AStormor audacious18:18
AStormxmms uses gtk+1.2, which will eat ram18:18
AStorm:P18:18
johnxyup :)18:18
Stskeepsjohnx: saw http://fosdem.org/2009/schedule/events/emb_maemo_beagleboard ?18:18
johnxyup. just a second ago18:19
Stskeepsk18:19
mavhcnot that I can get a consistant report of free ram, each applet seems to give a different number18:19
johnxtry htop18:19
mavhcor ram used by an app18:19
johnxmavhc, well, it's somewhat complicated when you're talking about using shared libraries...18:19
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mavhcso I've found, can't they have their own entry?18:20
AStormthey do18:21
AStormit's a point called SHR18:21
AStormRES is the true memory usage18:21
AStormVM is the allocation size18:21
Stskeepsjohnx: just wondering if they're suddenly making a side project to maemo targetting omap3 devices..18:21
AStormRES or RSS (resident set size)18:21
AStormfrom my desktop:18:22
johnxStskeeps, well, they internally use beagles for dev work, IIRC...so I would assume it's just a presentation on that18:22
AStorm10624 astralst  21   1  120M 31980 12404 S  0.0  2.1  0:01.06 claws-mail18:22
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah possibly18:23
AStorm120M is VIRT, 32M is SHR, 12,5M is RSS18:23
AStormoh, wrogn18:23
johnxStskeeps, There were noises about telling other people how to use maemo5 on a beagle, earlier18:23
AStorm120M is VIRT, 32M is RES and 12.5M is SHR18:23
AStorm:P18:23
AStormthis is x86 though18:24
Stskeepsjohnx: well, on the other hand, nokia seems to be starting to get some of the things i've pointed out way back in Maemo Reconstructed18:24
johnxStskeeps, hmm?18:24
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AStormsorting by RES on tablet: hildon-desktop, osso-xterm, hildon-input-method, browserd, osso-connectivity-ui-connd18:25
AStorm(largest first)18:25
mavhchow would I do that sort?18:25
AStormand hildon-desktop is 16M RES18:25
Stskeepsjohnx: 'Sure, customize with busybox and such, but,18:25
Stskeepsin the process of rebuilding the base system platform, release scripts18:25
Stskeepsfor bootstrapping a Maemo image, keep the system development open18:25
Stskeeps(public SVN like with Hildon) - which would make developers happy in18:25
Stskeepsterms of knowing how the base system is going to change - and adapt to18:25
Stskeepsthem before new OS releases come out.18:25
Stskeeps(and such)18:25
Stskeeps(http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2008-October/035409.html)18:25
AStormmavhc: press <18:26
AStormor >18:26
mavhcin htop?18:26
AStormyes18:26
AStormor click Setup on the bar18:26
Stskeepsif they're starting to make it possible to easily adapt Maemo to hw platforms and bootstrap it18:26
mavhcfirst question, where's htop?18:26
Stskeeps:P18:26
AStormand pick there18:26
AStormmavhc: in extras I think18:26
mavhcdon't see it18:26
AStormyou can also use old top (from busybox)18:26
AStormmaybe extras-devel18:27
AStormor that other devel repo18:27
qwerty12http://maemo.org/development/tools/18:27
AStormnote - hildon-desktop process counts most of your desktop applets18:27
qwerty12Use apt-get to install it after adding that repo18:27
mavhcif the applets aren't displayed do they use ram?18:28
AStormyes, they are running18:28
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AStormbad design, eh?18:28
mavhcprobably half of my problem then18:28
AStormunlikely18:28
AStormsee, the heaviest one I have is the omweather18:29
AStormbecause of nice gfx18:29
mavhcis it possible to see what each applet is using?18:29
AStormand most of the applets are client rendered18:29
AStormhmm, no, I don't think so18:29
AStormmight show as threads, let me check18:30
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AStormnah, you won't know which one's which18:31
mavhcand if the only way to remove them is to uninstall that's going to be annoying18:31
johnxStskeeps, right now I think they're very focused on getting fremantle out of the door. And they did talk about fremantle on beagleboards a while ago I know...so I think it's more about filling in the blanks on a one-off nature rather than becoming really portable...18:31
AStormno, just uncheck them18:31
AStormremove them from the desktop and/or tray18:32
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, true - but still, if they're even distributing how to put maemo on another device, is a plus18:32
AStormit's configurable in the control panel and desktop menu18:32
mavhcthat's what I meant by not displayed18:32
mavhcdid you mean on the desktop, but covered by another window?18:32
johnxStskeeps, agreed. maybe they'll be more willing to talk right after fremantle is out the door, before the heavy work for hermatatatan starts18:32
Stskeepsyeah18:33
AStormmavhc: they took like, all, 300 KB though18:33
AStormso don't even bother18:33
AStormunless one of your applets is running python :P18:33
johnxalso, the psion teklogix netbook pro looks like an interesting device :)18:33
AStorm(then python will show in process list)18:33
AStormmavhc: I guess hildon-desktop is so large, because it caches all the menu bitmaps18:35
AStormthat would be a nasty performance problem18:35
AStormno other reason why it should take 16 MB18:35
mavhcmenu bitmaps = the corners etc, or all the text too?18:36
AStormmaybe... maybe if it holds the uncompressed wallpaper18:36
AStormmavhc: no, as in, app icons18:36
AStormmine hildon-desktop just crashed and was returned to the defaults18:37
AStormit eats 14,8 MB18:37
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mavhcwhat bit depth is the wallpaper?18:37
johnxAStorm, huh. kernel build failed. sorry, not going to worry about it for tonight18:37
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AStormmavhc: unimportant, it doesn't take much ram as I checked18:38
mavhcat least with no swap it can't swap out apps I'm using, unlike windows18:39
AStormit's just... heavy on its own18:39
AStormmavhc: then enable swap, eh/18:39
AStormyou can have a swap file18:40
AStormthere's even an utility in control panel18:40
mavhcand wear out my precious SD card?18:40
johnxyes18:40
AStormmavhc: yes, SD cards are cheap18:40
johnxmaybe you'll kill your $10 SD card in 3 years instead of losing it in 4 years18:40
AStormmhm18:40
AStormthough, failures of swap files are sometimes nefarious crashes18:41
AStormdataloss might be expensive ;P18:41
AStormMTBF is much larger though than 5 years18:41
AStormbecause swap is actually written to rarely18:41
johnxdepends on 'swappiness'18:41
AStormjohnx: as I mentioned, you don't need the kernel build18:42
AStormto build the module :)18:42
AStormtry it18:42
johnxsorry, I moved on to something else18:42
AStormmeh :/18:42
johnxI'll get back to it eventually18:42
johnxif you want it done faster then just install scratchbox...18:42
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AStormjohnx: and you'll send me a DVD with Ubuntu on it18:45
johnxwhy would I send you an ubuntu cd so you can work on your own project?18:45
AStormsetting up sbox is time consuming and requires full attention18:45
johnxwill you send me an n810 so I can test it with mer?18:46
johnxalso: the ubuntu guys will send you a free cd. just ask them18:46
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qwerty12AStorm, I've got compcache 0.5 & 0.5.1 compiled successfully against nokia 2.6.21. 0.5.1 was the result of dodgy patching by me (diffed from 0.5). http://qwerty12.maemobox.org/compcache/18:52
pupniki wish comanche would be open-sourced18:53
johnxheh :) somehow I figured it would this is what would happen18:53
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AStormqwerty12: :D again19:03
AStormyou rock man19:03
AStormtime for testing19:03
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qwerty12:)19:03
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AStormbtw, does the new wifi driver support packet injection?19:04
AStormaircrack-ng would be too good to pass :>19:05
qwerty12It uses mac80211 which I believe allows packet injection19:05
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AStormqwerty12: where else except initfs can I put kernel modules? (dir)19:07
qwerty12/lib/modules/`uname -r` on rootfs but you will have to insmod manually still19:08
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AStormdoesn't exist, meh19:09
johnxyup :)19:09
AStormthat's why I asked19:10
johnxit doesn't really matter where you put it on the rootfs19:10
AStormok then19:10
AStormjohnx: it would if I installed real module-init-tools19:10
johnxhmm...is there a maemo package of that?19:10
qwerty12busybox would probably conflict with it anyway19:11
AStormyes, there is, and yes, busybox conflicts with it19:11
AStormbut who cares about conflicts :P19:12
johnxoh me! *raises his hand*19:12
AStormnokia would do us a lot of good if it just installed normal utils19:13
johnxhence mer19:13
AStormmhm19:13
RST38hAStorm: that would be a step away from the normal procedure19:14
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AStormRST38h: it's not really embedded enough19:14
AStormno need for busybox19:14
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AStormand would make for less porting19:17
bensonInteresting detail: the busybox in initfs is bigger than the one in the rootfs.19:19
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bensonAnd it has color ls, for example.19:19
qwerty12It also has better help19:19
* benson compares feature lists...19:19
AStormdifferent team?19:19
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StskeepsMeizirkki: fell and broke your leg? ;)19:41
Meizirkkiluckily not :)19:42
Stskeepsany luck on installer?19:42
Meizirkkiyep, and 0.7 works well19:42
Stskeepsgood19:42
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Meizirkkii removed network-manager btw19:43
Meizirkkii prefer wifi-radar19:44
Stskeepsfair enough :)19:44
Stskeepsi'm going to release very soon so :P19:44
johnxw00!19:44
* johnx is already digging in to zaurus pre-reqs19:44
* Stskeeps is not a fan of scratchbox atm19:45
johnxyou two fighting again?19:46
Stskeepslibkrb requiring libc6 >= 2.919:46
Stskeepsguess which we're on, 2.819:46
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johnxaaah, in sb19:47
johnxhmm19:47
Stskeepswell, for the rootstrap i generate for SB19:47
Stskeepshave to revert to v8 i guess19:47
johnxalright, 'night all19:57
Stskeepsnini19:58
* Stskeeps sends off post19:58
* qwerty12 hits the auto refresh button19:58
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bensonre: busyboxes, there are 86 commands in common, 27 unique to the initfs version, and 20 unique to the rootfs version.20:02
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bensonWhy these featuresets aren't merged and a single binary used is beyond me...20:02
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qwerty12Stskeeps, screenshot02.png isn't displaying :)20:08
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Stskeepshmmm.20:08
Stskeepslemme see20:09
Stskeepsfixed20:10
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StskeepsMer 0.7 release: http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2656720:10
Stskeepsslightly more user friendly to install, now :)20:11
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Stskeepsevening andre___20:13
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andre___hej hej20:15
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b-man(random information) - i just released a new version of nit-bootmenu-compat for ubuntu jaunty and i created a new error screen; http://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/ubuntu-n8x0/incompatible-bootmenu.jpg - take a look :)21:04
olihey, can I install clear maemo on a sd card?21:06
b-manyou mean clone? - there shuld be instructions under general on itt ;)21:07
olii've seen that - but i want a clear system - not a clone21:07
b-manhmm21:07
woglindeclear?21:08
oliooops, i played with debian and now maemo boots only to the end of a blue bar and freezes...21:08
qwerty12_N800oli, have any experience with mtd2block modules?21:08
oliqwerty12_N800: no.21:08
oliwhat do i have to do to fix it? ;p21:10
* b-man thinks about creating a stand-alone repository for ubuntu to keep things sain21:11
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oliDo I have to reflash now?21:12
b-manmost likely :(21:12
oliwell.. ok. But i have no idea how did it happen.21:13
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b-manhow were you messing with debian? :)21:13
olii set root device to mmc, tested it, it crashed on rebooting so i pulled battery out21:14
b-manouch21:14
oliafter thet i've set root dev to flash and now blue bar stops at the end21:14
oliwas there any better thing to do on crash at a black screen? ;p21:15
b-manthe jffs2 filesysm might have gotten damaged21:15
olibut i could't do anything21:16
b-manre: filesystem21:16
wazdwhoa, I don't think that Pandora is pocketable, it's toooo thick imho21:16
olib-man: i have to do a full flash or only partial?21:16
qwerty12_N800It's also shit to most people because you can't buy with a CC :P21:16
b-manoil; probibly a full flash ;p21:17
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bensonwazd:pffftt... it's only 27mm thick.21:17
olib-man: ok, thanks21:18
bensonPocketable, if it's the only thing in that pocket.21:18
wazdbenson: oh my )))21:18
wazdbenson: "only"?))21:18
wazdbenson: thick part of n800 is 2321:19
bensonYep, 29 is no problem.21:19
RST38hqwerty: and it also has a problem of not being in existance yet21:20
benson(It doesn't need a case, since it's a clamshell, so you save a couple mm there.)21:20
RST38hyes, I admit that for some REALLY dedicated people it is not a problem at all though21:20
wazdbenson: well, I don't have any case for my n800 :) But I've just visually added 5mm to n800... oh my oh my)21:21
qwerty12_N800RST38h, yes, I could see that as  a bigger problem :/. nice con they've got setup though21:21
Proteouspfff, I can pocket my vaio P21:21
wazdProteous: you actually have one?)21:22
Proteoushttp://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/01/vaio-p-pockets-1.jpg21:22
glassqwerty12_N800: huh can't buy pandora with a cc?21:22
RST38hqwerty: Never underestimate the power of ignorance :)21:22
RST38h(in other words, it does not have to be a con job :))21:22
qwerty12_N800glass, yep, don't have a link but they aren't accepting them atm :/21:22
glassqwerty12_N800: are they evading taxes or what?21:22
qwerty12_N800RST38h, indeed :)21:23
RST38hglass: they are evading chargebacks21:23
glassRST38h: thats the other thing i thought of21:24
glassRST38h: but that smells like keeping the money despite the project crashing21:24
bensonProteous: Full article, with more pictures -- the last one is best:21:24
bensonhttp://www.engadget.com/2009/01/12/vaio-p-doesnt-have-nothin-on-these-other-awesome-pocket-friend/21:24
Proteousyeah21:24
Proteousor this one from the comments: http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/dqnplus/imgs/0/7/07548f84.jpg21:24
wazdPandora is a wonderful piece of hardware with "why-so-bad?!" design21:25
glassdunno, i kinda like the design, i'd like all those buttons21:25
glassi just don't like the vapo smell..21:25
ProteousLETS PUT WHITE BUTTONS ALL OVER THE FUXIN PLACE!!!!21:25
glassor the amateur smell21:25
RST38hwazd: it is an omap3 reference design with an ugly case quickly modeled out of cardboard21:25
wazdI think buttons will be black someday)21:26
bensonThe design doesn't bother me. I don't think the buttons are white in the final version.21:26
glassit would be in toy use for me anyways21:26
RST38hthe final version will be pink and have horns instead of buttons21:26
glasshello kitty21:26
bensonI21:26
wazdhttp://www.gp32x.de/pandorasneak.jpg21:26
RST38hglass: the whole thing looks very much like Optimus Maximus21:26
wazdthats the final mockup I guess21:26
glasswhat bothers me about is the fanboyz, thinking of it as the jesusdevice21:26
bensonI generally don't care much about design, but I'd draw the line at hello kitty.21:27
lcukpeople who leave computers in their back pockets will end up running cracked software no matter whether they are pirates or not21:27
RST38hglass: a bunch of guys suddenly get an idea that they can design and produce hardware21:27
ProteousI just don't really get the vertical then horizontal across the top keyboard buttons21:27
lcukits just a recipe for disaster21:27
Proteousthey keypad is cool21:27
Proteousthen they just went too far21:27
glassRST38h: "hey we can haz order ref boards"21:27
RST38hglass: they try - and fail, documenting their clusterfuck in their blog for everyone to see21:27
glassRST38h: i'd have more faith in them if they'd just have bought the manufacturing from some chinese nutjobs21:28
RST38hglass: I am absolutely sure they did21:28
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RST38hglass: but they have chosen their chinese nutjobs badly.21:28
glassRST38h: well the crap that one fanboy told me was that the "parts were chosen for quality" and that some of the plastics were from usa etc21:28
glassRST38h: i haven't followed their blog really21:29
wazdWell, actually it's acceptable design but... speaker grid?! Guys, hello, it's 21st century!)21:29
RST38hglass: Chinese have no problem ordering some parts from the US21:29
lcukforgive me for being a n00b, but what would you cover a speaker with?21:29
pupnikmelted lard?21:30
wazdwell, not that "early 90s" stuff for sure)21:30
Phantomtimeless: Hi, do you remember yesterday's talk about chinook package manager?21:30
glassRST38h: it was told in a fashion that they were going to assemble it themselfs21:30
lcukmight help with cooking21:30
timelessvaguely21:30
RST38hglass: further confirms my original suspicion that they have never done it21:30
roopeIt's been interesting to follow the Pandora project thingy. I guess it proves that if it would be so easy, everybody would be doing it.21:31
PhantomToday I reflashed the device with latest release of diablo.21:31
lcuk+1 roope21:31
glassRST38h: yeah thats why it sounded amateurish and stupid, the fanboy who told me this didn't think of it as weird which is why i labeled him fanoy in my puny mind21:31
RST38hroope: It is not very hard but you have to have experience doing it21:31
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RST38hroppe: It basicalyl comes down to choosing the right Chinese or Taiwanese design house and working with them, clearly stating what you want21:32
olib-man: epic win!21:32
roopeWell, yes. It's like brain surgery. It's not very hard if you have experience doing it. :)21:32
b-manoil: hehe21:32
* lcuk hands roope a hammer and chisel21:32
lcukyou should be able to make a good start with those :D21:32
RST38hroope: But you have to know whom to choose and have exprience working with these guys21:32
roopebut yes, there are many asian subcontractors where you can get pretty much the whole package.21:32
olib-man: i've left it (with battery) for 10 minutes, then ./flasher-3.0-static --set-root-device flash -R , and it seems to work well ;)21:33
b-mansweet ;)21:33
glassroope: point being that they didn't even choose teh complete package way which would have been easiest21:33
PhantomAt first time, package manager lauched and showed me list of installed apps. Then it checked for updated and just after this check it repeated same nonsense in log as chinook did before. No apps installed, no available repos really working. I can't figure out what it wants from me in order to just work...21:33
olithe only problem with n800 which i hadn't solved yet is setting a SIP account21:33
glass-teh+the21:33
wazdhttp://www.gp32x.de/sneak3.jpg21:34
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wazdomg, 3.5mm jack on the side!21:34
wazdwhy?!21:34
roopeThat's... at least you cannot complain about the lack of hard keys there. ;)21:34
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lcuki thought it could be flipped slate style?21:34
Livingroomwazd: wtf is that? a dvd player with a keyboard?21:34
lcukthe preview there looks like its laptop only21:34
roopeInteresting placement for the Del button.21:34
bensonwazd: as opposed to?21:34
* b-man is mesmerised by the pandora picture21:35
benson2.5mm is less widely available...21:35
lcukand odd lack of esc key without a double press21:35
wazdbenson: no, why on the front?21:35
RST38hwazd: this does not look like "high quality plastics from US" =)21:35
b-manlcuk, wazd: did you see my new error screen btw? :)21:36
RST38hlooks like a plastic fishing bait box, in fact21:36
lcukRST38h, high quality fake rendered plastics, the electrons originated in the US21:36
timelesshey, has anyone here had trouble using mer's menus in vmware?21:36
wazdbenson: Place on the side is much better for "audio player in the pocket" mode21:36
timeless(the task launcher one)21:36
bensonwazd: it has to be front or back; sides would interfere with gaming grip.21:36
bensonwazd: true that.21:37
LivingroomWOOOT21:37
Livingroomi just booted windows 3.11 on my n800.21:37
bensonMaybe at the back edge of the side...21:37
lcukno b-man give us a blast21:37
wazdbenson: now you'll break your 100$ headphones jack with this :(21:37
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b-manlcuk, wazd; http://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/ubuntu-n8x0/incompatible-bootmenu.jpg21:37
wazdb-man: fonts are screwed up\21:38
lcuk"this tablet will self destruct in 15 seconds"21:38
bensonHeheh. I don't have any phones worth more than $20, and even so I'd spend $5 on a 3" pigtail to take the abuse.21:38
b-manhehe21:38
lcukwrong aspect, but the contrast of the entire screen is right21:38
wazdb-man: use special narrow fonts or just use normal)21:38
Stskeepsi like wazds shark better21:38
lcuki bet that looks good on device21:38
wazdStskeeps: that's for ubuntu I guess21:39
mavhcget headphones with a corner jack21:39
wazdmavhc: that sounds like Apple)21:39
glassi have to change cord on my headphones every few months21:39
lcukb-man, could you do me a blank 800*480 of the background please? :D i would like it for my desktop (maybe with a blue hint)21:39
bensonStill harder on them... I'm with wazd now that I think about pocketage.21:39
glassa little solder job.. using them on ipod and rolling the cord on it breaks it21:39
b-manlcuk; shure21:39
lcuk:D excellent21:40
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b-manhold on...21:40
lcukthough the color i could hint as required21:40
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lcukim already changing title hues for different apps21:40
b-manok, i'll have it up in 5-10 minutes then ;)21:40
mavhcwazd: no, that would be: buy our headphones that need a special chip in to even play audio via our device, btw the chip costs nothing but licencing fees21:40
lcukb-man, no problem, leave it greyscale, ill tint it at runtime21:41
lcukcould even make it an alpha channel21:41
b-manok :)21:41
b-manlcuk: http://www.bman.maemobox.org/intelmac_gray.jpg21:44
lcukthanks :)21:44
b-manno problem ;)21:45
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wazdand the worst thing that curent pandora's keyboard layout is almost localizable21:47
wazdno space for descent cyrilic or other layouts :(21:47
* timeless wonders if osso-backup is available 21:48
roopeyeah. nobody in scandinavia wants to buy a device without äö.21:48
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timelessnobody outside scandinavia would want to buy a device made by a company which includes them21:48
oliroope: you've got separate keys for such characters?21:49
* timeless grumbles notably in roope's direction21:49
timelessoli: yes21:49
timelessthey ruin the right edge of the keyboard for them21:49
timelesstotal waste of good ergonomics21:49
timelessroope: speaking of which21:49
timelessi just tried an HTC earlier today21:49
timelessthey stuck the space key where it belongs21:49
timelessremind me to get an HTC and whack it over the head of someone @nokia21:50
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suihkulokkithe HTC models I tried at verkkokauppa.com ~2y ago did not have very impressive qwerty21:51
timelesssuihkulokki: visit me tomorrow and i'll explain21:51
jmesquitaGuys, I have some problems compiling my application for maemo. Is this the right place to ask dev questions?21:51
timelessjmesquita: there's here, or a mailing list21:52
timelessgive it a shot21:52
timelessuse a pastebin if you need a bunch of lines21:52
jmesquitatimeless: I have a Qt application and I have a linking problem21:52
wazdIf only pandora guys invested some time in sexiness - it would be total hell on earth21:52
jmesquitatimeless: It all compiles fine, but linking has not been good21:52
jmesquitatimeless: Let me pastebin the output21:53
woglindejmesquita whats the problem?21:53
wazdIf you can't do something sexy - copy something sexy :)21:53
jmesquitawoglinde: I am not really sure. I am linking against a lib that dependes on portaudio21:53
jmesquitawoglinde: But it compiles fine and the lib examples also work fine21:54
woglindethe pastebin21:54
woglindethen21:54
GAN800wazd, they intentionally made it look like shit.21:54
timelessnote that some things aren't quite as transitive as you might want21:54
jmesquitawoglinde: I mean, the PC version compiles on all 3 OSs and work fine on all 3 OSs21:54
timelesswhy are all the games in mer 77+mb?21:54
timelessis it going to install KDE for me?21:54
wazdGAN800: well, honestly it doesn't have worst look in the world, but it's kinda "oldskool" or something21:55
jmesquitahttp://pastebin.com/m3a889e8f21:56
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timelessjmesquita: did ou try linking against that sound lib?21:57
jmesquitatimeless: -lportaudio-i686-pc-linux-gnu21:57
jmesquitatimeless: Thats supposed to be the sound lib21:57
woglindejmesquita you need to linka gainst the alsablib21:57
timelessjmesquita: you should probably look at pkgconfig21:58
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timelessin theory, it's supposed to solve this problem for you21:58
jmesquitawoglinde: Erm... I dont really understand why this is not compiling in sbox if it does compile on any other system21:59
Livingroomhey guys, anyone ever use dosbox to install Win95 on the N800?21:59
jmesquitatimeless: Let me take a look at that21:59
jmesquitawoglinde: -l what?21:59
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* RST38h suggested Livingroom to install Windows about 13 hours ago22:00
woglinde-lasound22:00
Livingroomhey RST, i did22:00
Livingroomthat whole thing i went through was just so i could install win 3.11 on dosbox. it works! yay.22:00
woglindejmesquita please look if libasound2 is installed22:00
timelesswoglinde: should be pretty hard to hvave compiled successfully otherwise22:01
* jmesquita is looking at the system right now22:01
timelesspresumably he has libasound2-dev too22:01
woglindetimeless depends22:01
jmesquitaI do have both22:02
jmesquita-dev and lib...22:02
mavhcLivingroom: just use vnc/rdp and pretend you did22:02
Livingroombut pretending is for fairies.22:03
woglinde-lasound2 should do22:03
Livingroomi want to do it, and say i did it: and behold, i shall be the greatest in the land; the geekiest individual in central TN.22:03
woglindeargs asound22:03
jmesquitawonYep!!!22:03
jmesquitawoglinde: It did22:03
woglinde*g*22:03
jmesquitawoglinde: I dont really get why in regular linux distros I dont have to link explicitly against that22:04
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jmesquitawoglinde: Is there a way to test this on the device without making a real package?22:06
woglindecopy the binary over22:06
timelessjmesquita: you're not going to want to, but nothing prevents you22:06
woglindebut I suggest you compile it first with scratchbox arm22:07
timelessbesides you just built x86, not arm22:07
timelesspersonally, i'd try it out in a vmware-x86 :)22:07
jmesquitatimeless: Right, I need to change the target to ARMEL22:07
jmesquitasorry guys, I am very new to maemo and sbox22:07
jmesquitaAnd I just wanted a proof of concept here. Have my softphone run on one of these babies22:08
jmesquitaLet me get back to the books then and understand how to change sbox to armel and others ...22:09
lcukjmesquita, have you got qt libs on your device yet22:09
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woglindelcuk he will install them22:10
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jmesquitalcuk: No, not yet22:11
jmesquitaBut I saw that all I have to do is install the repo on the website22:11
woglindedevel-extras22:11
lcukfair enough :)22:11
jmesquitaYep.. :)22:12
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jmesquitawoglinde: All I have to do is sb_menu and select the new target?22:12
lcukcan mer run qt stuff?22:12
woglindejmesquita for scratchbox yes22:12
jmesquitawoglinde: And of course recompile it22:13
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woglindejmesquita then you have to activate devel-extras in /etc/apt/sources22:13
woglindeand install the qtlibs22:13
jmesquitawoglinde: Right, the same process I did for x8622:14
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jmesquitawoglinde: I get an error when running sb-menu22:16
jmesquitawoglinde: Should I run it from outside sbox?22:16
woglindewhich one?22:16
jmesquitawoglinde: That I must close other sessions22:17
jmesquitawoglinde: But I have no other sessions logged ...22:17
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woglindehit the killall-prozesses entry22:17
woglindeis the last one22:17
jmesquitawoglinde: Let me try22:17
jmesquitawoglinde: Yep, that did the trick22:18
jmesquitawoglinde: Thanks22:18
timelessjmesquita: you'll really want pkgconfig :)22:19
RST38hhttp://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09%2F02%2F01%2F1931216&from=rss <=== Evil, EVIL!22:19
jmesquitatimeless: I took a look at it22:19
jmesquitatimeless: And yes, I will need that eventualy22:19
jmesquitaeventually22:20
jmesquitatimeless: Thanks for the tip22:20
timelesspersonally i avoid it, but you want to use it as soon as possible22:20
timelessit's really supposed to make life easier22:20
* timeless preaches w/o practicing22:20
jmesquitatimeless: Ahahaha, well, someone have to have the spare time, right?22:21
timelessyeah, if i practiced everything i preached, i'd never get anything i wanted to done :(22:22
jmesquitatimeless: You'll end up like me. Managing a dev team22:22
woglindejmesquita hehe22:23
timelessi'm happy to consult for a couple of dev teams22:23
woglindebut this gives more money22:23
timelessi don't like the responsibility of being a manager: )22:23
jmesquitawoglinde: Well, lets say that managing a team is the closest I can get to developing22:25
jmesquitawoglinde: That makes me happy22:25
jmesquitawoglinde: I am not bright enough to be the developer22:25
* timeless cries22:27
timelesscapture-root doesn't work w/ mer22:27
b-manStskeeps: are you still here? - i'm trying to create a repository on bman.maemobox.org and i was wondering whare i could find a good guide on how to do it.22:28
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* b-man trys googling22:29
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* b-man starts installing repository management software in ubuntu22:44
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* timeless tries to use application manager to install debhelper and gettext22:46
* timeless considers giving up22:46
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b-manhehe22:47
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timelessit says 'updating'22:47
* qwerty12_N800 has dpkg-dev, quilt & debhelper installed in mer via apt-get22:47
timelessqwerty: yeah, i'm going to kill app manager and use apt-get22:48
qwerty12_N800Make sure to kill apt-worker too :)22:48
timelesswhy?22:49
* timeless just killed the lock22:49
qwerty12_N800apt-worker is h-a-m's annoying backend...22:50
timelessdoes mer include diablo's man killer?22:50
RST38hHehe, poor watcom cpp died on my mighty macros22:50
woglinderst *g*22:50
qwerty12_N800timeless, used to22:50
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* RST38h feels evil now22:51
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RST38hShit, I do not have any other compiler22:56
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timelesserr22:59
timelesssvn-buildpackage depends on xulrunner-1.922:59
* timeless wonders why22:59
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AStormqwerty12_N800: uhoh23:19
AStormI got pwnd by busybox swapon23:19
AStormhow can I set swap priority w/o swapon supporting it? :P23:20
qwerty12_N800replace swapon with a real one? :)23:20
AStormyeah fun23:20
AStormthat means installing util-linux23:20
AStormnot yet23:20
AStormI'd rather test Mer then23:20
AStormdo you have a separate swapon app?23:21
qwerty12_N800nah, replace the binary directly. swapon is just a symlink to busybox.23:21
qwerty12_N800yer, give me 523:21
AStormbtw, lower prio comes first, or higher?23:22
AStormseems that lower takes precedence...23:22
AStormthat means, latest swap added23:22
AStormwrong23:25
AStormhigher prio takes precedence23:25
AStormchecked :P23:25
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qwerty12_N800Wish process priority was like that :)23:25
AStormyour kernel module is suck23:26
AStormweirdness happened23:27
AStormprobably memory corruption23:27
qwerty12_N800I just compiled them straight ;). that said, 0.5.1 offers no advantages over 0.5 on  2.6.2123:27
AStormbtw, why don't lzo1x_* don't want to load, while xvmalloc and compcache did?23:27
AStormthe lzo modules complain about some missing symbol I guess23:28
AStormI'll better reboot and check dmesg23:28
AStormdo you have the lzo modules loaded?23:29
qwerty12_N800I never tested the modules... lemme try them now23:29
AStormqwerty12_N800: while you're on the run, could you localegen me pl_PL.UTF-8 locale?23:31
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qwerty12_N800I have localepurge on the tablet, dunno if it's still possible23:31
AStormit's not related at all23:32
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qwerty12_N800"lzo1x_compress: exports duplicate symbol lzo1x_1_compress (owned by kernel)"23:33
AStormmhm23:33
AStormyeah, probably jffs2 uses that23:33
AStorm;P23:34
AStormso, please do build against proper .config kernel23:34
AStormit may crash otherwise23:34
qwerty12_N800it was built against nokia_2420_defconfig :/, any other suggestions?23:34
AStormthat defconfig is bollocks23:35
AStormset JFFS2 to built-in23:35
AStormand all the compressors23:35
AStormmight help23:35
AStormI mean, actually, the defconfig isn't the config used by Nokia stock kernel build23:36
AStormqwerty12_N800: so, when will I get my rebuild? :)23:37
qwerty12_N800tomorrow :)23:38
t_s_oheh, im still somewhat surprised when it comes to how much of a impact changing SD cards had on idle battery use23:38
qwerty12_N800AStorm, but I would have thought that nokia_2420_defconfig would already have jffs2 built in?23:39
RST38hhttp://pics.livejournal.com/drugoi/pic/00ptwqwq.jpg23:39
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tank-mant_s_o, probably from the meta layer crawler23:40
AStormqwerty12_N800: it doesn't apparently23:40
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AStormqwerty12_N800: ooh, my bad23:42
AStormI just allocated 1/2 of device memory last time23:42
AStormobviously, it could've crashed all stuff ;P23:42
t_s_otank-man: that one is not running. or at least should not be, as i have it as not starting at boot23:43
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woglindere jmesquita23:43
tank-manyea last time i updated, the crawler was running again23:44
t_s_oheh, aware of that happening, but i make it a habit of changing that after a update23:44
AStormqwerty12_N800: it seems to work with size = default (31692)23:44
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AStormsize = 65535 crashed ;P23:45
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AStormprobably OOM-killed a lot of stuff23:45
qwerty12_N800interesting :)23:45
AStormbtw, canola loaded a tiny bit faster23:45
AStormlike, 1s23:46
AStormooh, froze it seems ;P23:47
AStormI mean, the device23:47
AStormI'll wait to see if watchdog kills is23:47
AStorm*it23:47
AStormqwerty12_N800: can't run simple localegen for me and give me the files in /usr/share/locales?23:48
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AStormweird...23:50
AStormwatchdog doesn't kill the device23:50
AStormit works, but... not the UI or others23:50
AStormweird hang it is23:50
AStormscreen and LED work23:50
qwerty12_N800not on device, cpu goes way too high for me to be able  to my tablet23:50
qwerty12_N800s/able /able to use/23:50
infobotqwerty12_N800 meant: not on device, cpu goes way too high for me to be able to use to my tablet23:50
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AStormhm?23:51
AStormnah, why23:51
AStormunless, it's the stupid CPU scheduler striking again23:51
AStorm;P23:51
AStormmaybe the "hang" is due to CPU being pegged23:51
AStormbut screen dims smoothly... hmmh23:51
AStormshutdown worked apparently at least, LED showed it23:52
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AStormno, system hanged, but it was a soft lockup23:53
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