IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-01-02

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Shadow_M	woglinde 5.2008.43-7 thats what i am running	00:02
woglinde	hm thats the latest	00:02
Shadow_M	yeah the seg faults happened maybe a day or two ago last time i used it it was running fine	00:02
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woglinde	Shadow_M I would suggest file a bugreport if there is nt already one	00:04
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* pupnik thinks more female programmers are in order		00:05
woglinde	pupnik where?	00:05
pupnik	on earth. for linux.	00:05
pupnik	etc	00:05
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Shadow_M	hmm is there a way to reset the file it reads from i have no problem losing my rss feeds if i can use the reader	00:06
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RST38h	pupnik: Will you accept life partners from other professional groups? =)	00:25
woglinde	rst g	00:25
SHADOW__X	woglinde: have you had your rss reader seg fault	00:26
woglinde	shadow I do not use it	00:26
SHADOW__X	oh ok	00:26
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andre___	SHADOW__X, you could blow the content of /home/user/.osso_rss_feed_reader/	00:30
andre___	but before get me a nice coredump please and file a bug :)	00:30
andre___	install the "sp-rich-core" package from the tools repository (see http://maemo.org/development/tools/ ) and create a "core-dumps" directory to the memory card with at least few megabytes of free space.	00:31
pupnik	RST38h: maybe. but it helps if she likes Baldurs' Gate	00:31
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RST38h	pupnik: This SELECT ... WHERE will return an empty set.	00:34
woglinde	rst g	00:35
GAN8001	andre___, I dunno how you use canned answers.	00:38
Vulcanis	SHADOW__X: What feeds were you subscribed to?	00:38
GAN8001	They just don't work for me.	00:38
andre___	GAN8001, haha. why don't the work for you?	00:38
SHADOW__X	lifehacker digg slashdot	00:38
SHADOW__X	i believe thats all of them	00:38
GAN8001	andre___, dunno. I guess I prefer the "personal" touch. :P	00:38
andre___	funny guy. as if i was human and not a bot!	00:39
SHADOW__X	Vulcanis: lifehacker digg slashdot	00:39
SHADOW__X	thats about it	00:39
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GAN8001	andre___, mostly, though, they're not snarky enough. :D	00:41
andre___	haha, ok :)	00:42
b-man	It looks like Ubuntu jaunty booted without eny errors! :D	00:42
b-man	but.....	00:42
b-man	it doesn't start gdm and puts me in a login	00:42
Vulcanis	SHADOW__X: Do any of them embed flash? I forget if LH does	00:42
Vulcanis	because I know that has caused problems with my other RSS readers	00:42
SHADOW__X	hmm i dont think so the only last thing i remember changing was not enabling images	00:43
SHADOW__X	i had been using all of tose for awhile	00:44
SHADOW__X	though and it was wroking fine	00:44
b-man	does enyone know how to fix the gdm problem?, i'm using xserver-xorg and the gdm config file is /etc/gdm/gdm.cong-costom.	00:44
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b-man	edit gdm.conf-costom :p	00:46
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GAN8001	andre___, what's our next blocker for #630?	00:52
SHADOW__X	i fixed my own problem	00:54
SHADOW__X	i believe it was the feeds	00:54
SHADOW__X	they must of tried to update on a flaky connection	00:54
SHADOW__X	removed only the cache from within the osso-feed-reader dir and blam it fired right up	00:55
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* pupnik feels hungry		01:01
lcuk	qwerty12_N800, any idea of the actual API required to lookup icons	01:01
woglinde	drive to burger king	01:02
lcuk	woglinde, yeah i could do, but how do i get icons from there?	01:02
woglinde	I meant pupnik	01:02
lcuk	why would i get a pupnik from burger king? g	01:02
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, no, sorry. Icons are usually in /usr/share/pixmaps or /usr/share/icons/hicolor	01:03
lcuk	have you seen whats in hicolor	01:03
lcuk	its like a twisty maze with many different sized exists	01:04
lcuk	exits	01:04
qwerty12_N800	limit it to 64x64 and scalable then, icons tend to be in the apps or hildon sub dirs. you should know the file name by looking at the icon= tag	01:05
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lcuk	i am already scanning scalable, 64, 40, 32, 24	01:06
lcuk	in descending order to try to use the largest one i can	01:06
oli	hi. can i forward audio from windows PC to my n800?	01:07
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oli	ex. I am using winamp via rdesktop and i want to listen to the music from n800 speakers	01:08
alterego	If winamp can stream, sure.	01:09
oli	l	01:09
oli	I mean also listening to other sources, which rather cannot stream	01:10
alterego	Yes, if Winamp can stream, then sure.	01:11
mavhc	there's probably an output plugin for winamp	01:12
oli	i can just use shoutcast plugin...	01:12
alterego	Yes	01:12
oli	but what if I want to listen to my friends talking on ventrilo (voip app)	01:12
alterego	shoutcast plugin would do it.	01:12
pupnik	<@PlagueRat> Whereas Detroit is developing a car that runs completely on taxpayer money	01:13
alterego	Yes, what if.	01:13
pupnik	lol	01:13
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oli	is there any daemon which can stream out all the system outbound audio?	01:14
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GAN8001	pupnik, I like how they're giving money to reduce the credit requirements for buying a car. <_<	01:16
alterego	Is that to help fuel the car economy?	01:16
GAN8001	alterego, something like that.	01:16
mavhc	the solution to borrowing too much is to borrow more	01:16
mavhc	the government should probably join gamblers anonymous	01:17
woglinde	mavhc hehe yes	01:17
mavhc	"but I can win it all back with one more go!"	01:17
woglinde	and if you the boss	01:17
alterego	Heh	01:17
woglinde	you cant loose	01:17
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pupnik	(Asia) Silver: Bid: 11.37 Ask: 11.47 Change: +0.05 (+0.44%) Gold: Bid: 886.80 Ask: 889.80 Change: +6.00 (+0.68%) Platinum: Bid: 929.00 Ask: 939.00 Change: +1.00 (+0.11%) Palladium: Bid: 187.00 Ask: 193.00 Change: +2.00 (+1.08%) (updated: Jan 01 @ 18:42.53 ET)	01:55
pupnik	oops	01:55
`Mace	gr	01:57
tank-man	can't even paste properly, how do you expect to make money on stocks :)	01:58
mavhc	you accidentally bought stock!	01:59
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Navimaster	Hey guys	02:06
Navimaster	I got a quick question	02:06
* lcuk starts the clock		02:06
Navimaster	I want to update my nokia	02:06
Navimaster	using the nokia update software	02:06
Navimaster	Can I leave the adapter plugged in while its updating?	02:06
Navimaster	cause i dont think it has enough battery power	02:07
tank-man	sure	02:07
Navimaster	alright thanks	02:07
lcuk	instructions are clear : have a fully charged up battery and disconnect the charger	02:07
Navimaster	lol	02:07
Navimaster	I know thats why my question	02:07
Navimaster	can i or not?	02:07
lcuk	this is the internet - dont believe anything without checking : my answer is veryfiable with the documentation	02:07
Navimaster	ok..	02:07
lcuk	verifiable	02:07
tank-man	if unpluging it can damage it, i would be very disappointed in nokia	02:08
Navimaster	I just wanna know if I can have the adapter plugged in while its flashing/updating	02:08
Navimaster	anyone?	02:08
tank-man	what made you ask this question?	02:09
SHADOW__X	how much battery life do you have now	02:09
Navimaster	I was downloading and	02:09
Navimaster	(diablo update)	02:09
SHADOW__X	i say do it whats the worst that can happen you brick it	02:10
SHADOW__X	?	02:10
Navimaster	and the screen turned to black and it didnt update	02:10
Navimaster	so I'm thinking no more battery life	02:10
SHADOW__X	hmm	02:10
Navimaster	so I thought, maybe i should plug the adapter	02:10
SHADOW__X	or you need to reslash	02:10
SHADOW__X	plug it in and wait to see if the charging screen comes up	02:10
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SHADOW__X	and go from there	02:10
tank-man	so what you are saying is you have gone thru 1 failed update attempt?	02:10
Navimaster	yes and possibly because the battery life went to 0 or something	02:11
Navimaster	so I'm wondering if I can just plug the adapter and update	02:11
Navimaster	but the instructions make it difficult	02:11
Navimaster	cause it says to disconnect it	02:11
Navimaster	why?	02:11
tank-man	is that the part where you have to turn it off?	02:12
Navimaster	no...	02:12
Navimaster	It was downloading from the Nokia Software Updater	02:12
Navimaster	from my PC to nokia (usb connection)	02:12
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Navimaster	it was going to be done but the screen on my nokia turned off (battery probably)	02:12
Navimaster	and it interrupted the process	02:12
lcuk	then you hadnt followed instructions the first time ?	02:13
Navimaster	I did but my connection disconnected like 35131 times	02:13
lcuk	3. Make sure the battery of your tablet is fully charged.	02:13
Navimaster	so I had to redo it	02:13
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Navimaster	but my question is if I can use the charger or not	02:13
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tank-man	easy answer is follow the instructions :)	02:14
Navimaster	ok	02:14
Navimaster	well	02:14
Navimaster	I was going to anyway, just making sure.	02:15
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GAN800	Running out of battery power during an update or connecting/disconnecting a connected charger during an update CAN RESULT IN AN UNRECOVERABLE TABLET.	02:15
Navimaster	well I'm recharging my tablet	02:17
Navimaster	so it can be full for when i redo the update	02:17
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Kurtis318	has anyone been able to get google chat working with the default brows?	04:13
Kurtis318	oops, default browser	04:14
johnx	the default browser? I just use the default chat client...	04:14
Kurtis318	can you use it to send sms msgs?	04:15
johnx	aah, good point	04:15
johnx	I think there's a trick	04:15
TrueJournals	+1xxxyyyzzzz@sms.talk.google.com	04:15
johnx	thank you TrueJournals :D	04:16
johnx	that's the trick	04:16
TrueJournals	No problem	04:16
lcuk	thats US only isnt it	04:16
TrueJournals	Yup	04:16
lcuk	cos you guys pay to recv?	04:16
TrueJournals	lcuk: Depends on the cell plan you have	04:16
TrueJournals	Text messages are RIDICULOUSLY expensive	04:16
lcuk	over here we pay to send, the person gettin it has it for free	04:16
Kurtis318	great news, will give it a try	04:17
johnx	lcuk, yes. like any sane system should be	04:18
lcuk	well, for the qty of actual data its still insane	04:19
johnx	I do wonder what happens if you prefix the phone number there with an international dialing code :)	04:19
TrueJournals	Very interesting article on the subject of expensive text messages: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/28/business/28digi.html	04:19
johnx	if there was real competition between cell phone providers it would probably be free	04:19
lcuk	well thats what your contract makes it really, they do have to pay employees and buy stock and stuff	04:20
GAN800	lcuk, it's free for them, as it's sent on a sideband anyway	04:20
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lcuk	however, on general principle i will say: a pair price for a fair service	04:21
Kurtis318	i have 2 19 year old girls that average about 10,000 texts per month. we have unlimited texting	04:21
johnx	lcuk, I mean if there was real competition they'd be charging for the things that cost money and figuring out how to give out any value adds they could afford	04:21
johnx	Kurtis318, O_o I don't even think my younger sister hits much over 1,000	04:22
lcuk	of course johnx, but most users until recently never used that many texts	04:22
GAN800	Kurtis318, they must text 24/7	04:23
lcuk	johnx, im over phonewire :: think gossiping girls	04:23
lcuk	10k is probably normal	04:23
GAN800	Hardly	04:23
lcuk	think how many irc lines you push out in a month	04:23
lcuk	depending on the crowd and handsets its very easy	04:23
johnx	lcuk, I dunno about in the UK, but in the US the price of text messages got doubled from 10c to 20c recently...all across the board	04:23
lcuk	and with full qwerty and computerlike experience	04:23
johnx	highly doubt they have qwerty phones	04:24
GAN800	My sister pushes only about 1200 a month and is pretty much texting all the time	04:24
johnx	those are for geeks like us	04:24
lcuk	iphone	04:24
GAN800	iPhone isn't much faster than T9	04:24
lcuk	twitter	04:24
TrueJournals	I'd just like to throw in that my sister who is by all means NOT a geek has a phone with a qwerty keyboard	04:24
lcuk	tj, its getting more normal now	04:24
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GAN800	LG has a new qwerty handset that everybody seems to have purchased	04:25
GAN800	As does Samsung, actually	04:25
johnx	ah, I'm missing western trends these days. update me from early 2007 :)	04:25
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lcuk	i thought you would be ahead of the trend	04:25
pupnik	openjazz engine (to play Jazz Jackrabbit) should be an easy port to ITOS	04:25
GAN800	Maemo. :P	04:26
lcuk	liqos	04:26
GAN800	emacs	04:26
lcuk	lol	04:26
lcuk	i think thats the first time ive suggeste3d it like that :P	04:26
GAN800	3d? Freudian slip? ;)	04:27
johnx	lcuk, I don't think that this is the "real" future here, just a possible future. It's all numeric phones with a certain contingent of iphone users	04:27
Kurtis318	i am waiting for sprint to figure out how much money they are loosing on unlimited text service	04:27
lcuk	0	04:27
lcuk	as gan said, its a sidechannel to voice	04:27
GAN800	It doesn't cost them anything to sent texts	04:27
TrueJournals	Yeah, text messages really don't cost carriers anything	04:27
GAN800	s/sent/send/	04:27
infobot	GAN800 meant: It doesn't cost them anything to send texts	04:27
lcuk	you are paying them a fixed monthly fee and their usage is no way able to overload anything	04:28
Proteous	well, when you are talking about millions of texts in a dense populated area it can start to clog up the control channel	04:28
TrueJournals	" But text messages are not just tiny; they are also free riders, tucked into what’s called a control channel, space reserved for operation of the wireless network. ... The channel uses space whether or not a text message is inserted."	04:28
lcuk	its not quite the same as broadband overuse	04:28
Proteous	the control channel also has to take care of initiating and ending calls	04:29
johnx	Proteous, has that ever become a problem in the real world?	04:29
Proteous	so when it gets laggy things can start to freak out	04:29
Proteous	johnx, have you ever tried to place a call and had it just fail?	04:29
lcuk	Proteous, sending a text from one phone cannot jam the lines, but just like now - london midnight new years, the phone system cannot cope with billions of texts from billions of users all at the same time	04:29
Proteous	that's what happens	04:29
lcuk	(reduce by factors as required)	04:29
Proteous	I'm not saying that the phone companies are right in charging ludacris ammounts :P	04:30
Proteous	just saying that there is a limit	04:30
johnx	interesting. We have really small "cells" here so I guess it's not as big a problem	04:30
GAN800	Proteous, a few times when I had almost no signal. :P	04:30
Proteous	yeah, it depends a lot on that too	04:30
Proteous	in my town ATT doesn't have very many cells	04:30
GAN800	Stupid plaster and lead paint house.	04:30
johnx	with big cells it would be a nightmare here O_o	04:31
Proteous	chicken wire is the worst	04:31
Proteous	the stuff they put down under stucko	04:31
johnx	GAN800, lulz. think mine's a steal frame :P	04:31
lcuk	Proteous, but still, you are one user, your fingers cannot physically type fast enough to jam up the lines of an entire phone company	04:31
GAN800	lcuk, don't tempt him. :D	04:31
Proteous	add in a teathered n810 and anything is possible!! MUHAHAHAHAA	04:32
lcuk	no cos then you are on a different channel	04:32
Proteous	I can autosend texts from my phone with my n810 through bluetooth	04:32
johnx	or send them programatically :)	04:33
Proteous	exactly	04:33
lcuk	go for it, remember there is only as much bandwidth in the cell packet as would normally go	04:33
Proteous	don't worry, I'm not going to do it	04:33
lcuk	it wont send bigger packets	04:33
Proteous	lcuk, no one is saying that one person alone could take down the system with just texts messages	04:34
johnx	one person, many phones	04:34
Proteous	well, unless those are exploit texts and you have a vunerable s60 phone	04:34
TrueJournals	Actually... I'm curious about the whole "not being able to make a call" argument...	04:34
lcuk	many contracts	04:34
lcuk	much money, im sure the phone company will be happy	04:34
johnx	TrueJournals, no space on the control channel, no way to make a call initiation request	04:35
lcuk	that sounds like the voice of experience	04:35
TrueJournals	The NY Times article says " The channel uses space whether or not a text message is inserted." which makes it sound like there's extra space on the channel for a text message whether or not one is there	04:35
lcuk	johnx, have you got any grass in your backgarden?	04:35
johnx	lcuk, ahahaha	04:35
johnx	TrueJournals, but text messages and call initiation requests share that space	04:36
Proteous	http://blog.clintecker.com/post/67253912/what-carriers-arent-eager-to-tell-you-about-texting-or	04:36
Proteous	RF engineer blog about the issue	04:36
TrueJournals	Yeah, that makes it sound more like a text message would TAKE UP the control channel	04:37
johnx	lcuk, I live in an apartment building the size of a normal two story house. it has 6 apartments. the "back garden" is a cement walkway :)	04:38
TrueJournals	The NY Times article (to me) seems to more imply that they can share the channel	04:38
TrueJournals	(at the same time)	04:38
johnx	right, and the RF blog is addressing the NYT article :)	04:38
TrueJournals	Regardless... 20 cents is NOT the price one should pay for that :-P	04:38
johnx	100% agreed	04:39
TrueJournals	I understand charging for texts, but... 5 cents is reasonable... 20 cents is not	04:39
johnx	if there was competition it would probably be free, and they'd just make up the cost somewhere else	04:39
lcuk	johnx, you got the idea at least ;) btw, have you still got your whistle	04:40
johnx	whistle?	04:40
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lcuk	yeah, 2600 hz one	04:41
johnx	ah. heh :P	04:42
johnx	even the payphones here are ISDN :D	04:42
* johnx whistles down the ethernet line		04:42
lcuk	does explain why its in http://obsoleteskills.com/Skills/Whistling2600Hz	04:42
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lcuk	wow, that site is cool	04:43
Kurtis318	another question, can you tell i'm new, i try to play avi movies some work, some don't. can someone explain why?	04:46
johnx	AVI is a container. the video inside can be encoded in many ways.	04:46
Kurtis318	or how i can conver,them	04:46
johnx	what kind of desktop computer are you on? PC, Mac, Linux?	04:47
Kurtis318	linux	04:47
johnx	http://wiki.maemo.org/Video_encoding	04:47
johnx	guess I should have just linked that to begin with :)	04:47
johnx	tablet-encode is very nice.	04:47
johnx	and mplayer is recommended as well	04:49
Kurtis318	johnx, thanks. looking at wiki now	04:51
lcuk	anyone know how i send an x11 window to the back?	04:59
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johnx	can't help you directly, but if you google, search for "raise" and "lower" not "back" and "front"	05:01
lcuk	i just did - i found the inverse in code and followed via there, thanks tho :)	05:02
TrueJournals	Hooray for words!	05:03
TrueJournals	How about we make a programming language where you can use keywords, and synonyms for the keywords? :-P	05:04
TrueJournals	Forget function -- "bunch_of_commands"	05:04
johnx	ok, that would be awesome. it should have some exact synonyms and some functions that do kind of the same thing	05:06
johnx	and should be interpreted slightly differently on regionally different interpreters	05:06
TrueJournals	OK... you get to work on that... let me know when it's done :-P	05:07
johnx	done	05:07
johnx	I call it "spoken and written human language"	05:07
TrueJournals	lol	05:07
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johnx	huh...I wonder if anyone had an n8x0 crash on the leap second	05:10
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TrueJournals	Can the NITdroid kernel boot into maemo?	05:19
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johnx	I would bet against it	05:22
johnx	what I think people are working on is using kexec to just run Nokia's kernel	05:23
TrueJournals	Bah, I don't want to deal with that :-P	05:24
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TrueJournals	Well, talk to you guys later.. bye	05:26
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Toba	I'm going nuts	05:58
* alterego is nutz		05:58
Toba	I compiled the arm-hello script in the scratchbox howto	05:58
Toba	and I got it onto my n810 and when I do ./arm-hello it says '-sh: ./arm-hello: not found'	05:59
Toba	it's chmod +x and it even auto-completes the filename for me	05:59
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alterego	sounds like you compiled it with the wrong toolchain.	05:59
Toba	http://des.truct.org/tmp/compile.png	06:01
lcuk	script is your shebang thing right	06:01
Toba	it's a c program, man	06:01
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Toba	alterego: is this wrong?	06:03
Toba	the exact compiler that the tutorial says to use isn't there, as I used the deb repositories	06:03
lcuk	since all the path to gcc is normally not required i would say you went wrong somewhere by specifying one on the console	06:04
lcuk	either you are not inside a scratchbox user, or the toolchain is not setup correctly	06:04
alterego	God, it's 4am ..	06:04
lcuk	404 actually	06:05
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alterego	4:05 :P	06:05
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alterego	I should definitely go to bed soon ..	06:07
Toba	http://des.truct.org/tmp/scratchbox-installed.png	06:08
Toba	is this completely wrong? it's pretty frustrating trying to make scratchbox actually work	06:08
Toba	run_me_first.sh isn't even there	06:08
lcuk	ive only been through it once to have a glance at m5	06:08
lcuk	i do all dev directly on the tablet	06:09
alterego	Heh	06:09
alterego	Toba: you could download the vmware appliance.	06:09
lcuk	alterego, did you see the app launcher idea	06:09
Toba	my vmware license shot itself	06:09
lcuk	free player	06:09
alterego	lcuk?	06:09
lcuk	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=253958	06:09
lcuk	i've followed some of the thoughts from the maemo ui improvement blog and am bringing them into liqbase type thinking :)	06:10
alterego	Awesome :)	06:10
Toba	lcuk: ahhhhh my eyes burn	06:11
alterego	You run the maemo ui improv. blog?	06:11
johnx	Toba, another vote for try just 'gcc' without the path. that error you got on the tablet is usually from trying to run an ELF executable that's not quite the right arch	06:11
lcuk	no, a guy called Andrew Zhilin (wazd)	06:11
Toba	on the maemo?	06:11
alterego	Ah, yes. I didn't think it was you :P	06:12
Toba	Nokia-N810-51-3-Arkenstone:~# gcc hello.c	06:12
Toba	hello.c:1:20: stdio.h: No such file or directory	06:12
lcuk	toba, too much information for you? if you have seen liqbase you will see the grid and elements are resizable and you can set comfortable resolution :)	06:12
lcuk	on the graffitiwall	06:12
Toba	oh, lcuk I see.	06:12
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Toba	I don't have more than another 24megs free on / on my n810	06:12
lcuk	its all been completely fluid and dynamic up to this point	06:12
Toba	so I can't really install more things easily	06:13
Toba	without worrying about running out.	06:13
johnx	24M is plenty :)	06:13
alterego	Not if he's installing build-essential it's not :P	06:13
Toba	all I am really trying to do is compile this: https://bugs.maemo.org/attachment.cgi?id=687	06:13
Toba	I want to open pdf files from a shell script	06:13
Toba	in osso_pdfviewer	06:14
lcuk	what are you guys smoking, i do full dev with lots of -dev libraries installed and still have room for other apps (sometimes :$)	06:14
* alterego shudders.		06:14
alterego	I don't know where I'd be without my scratchbox :P	06:14
johnx	Toba, why are you trying to compile outside of scratchbox?	06:14
Toba	because scratchbox doesn't want to work for me	06:14
lcuk	my mind shudders at the recursion, i prefer things simple	06:15
Toba	i'm installing vmware-player on my desktop as was suggested	06:15
johnx	lcuk, sometimes in order for things to be simple, they have to be really complex :)	06:15
alterego	You could do it using dbus-send Toba	06:15
Toba	...how easy would it be?	06:15
alterego	Fairly easy.	06:16
johnx	actually, here's a better idea: want me to just compile that for you Toba?	06:16
alterego	:D	06:16
alterego	I'm not sure that's a better idea johnx :P	06:16
Toba	i'm not either	06:16
Toba	i may have to patch it	06:16
Toba	and whatever software i develop, i need to be able to compile it myself	06:16
lcuk	johnx, imagine 12 months down the line being able to have users simply open a quick simple light ide from ANY computer, be it windows mac linux or whatever and just build stuff	06:16
lcuk	developers ^	06:17
lcuk	heh	06:17
alterego	12 months?	06:17
alterego	What's happening in 12 months?	06:17
sin18	has anyone triple booted the system (flash, SD card boot, nitroid); my tablet (n800/diablo) is currently set to boot from SD and am wondering if installing nitroid (3rd partition on sd card) will mess it up :)	06:17
johnx	lcuk, sure. we'll just use virtualization. in 12 months computers will be fast enough.	06:17
lcuk	heh just a random "in the future"	06:17
alterego	I already use virtualization. My computer goes like greased weazel shit.	06:18
lcuk	but a virtual tablet isnt the same	06:18
alterego	sbrsh :P	06:18
alterego	sshfs	06:18
lcuk	sshfs a touch interface?	06:18
johnx	Toba, fair enough. I think the right answer is getting scratchbox installed then, rather than trying to build without it. We're willing to help you troubleshoot if you'd like.	06:18
alterego	You don't _have_ to use scratchbox to test your programs :P	06:18
b-man	lcuk; if you have a umpc or tablet computer	06:19
johnx	lcuk, sshfs is everything that smb isn't	06:19
lcuk	but by the time you've opened an ssh channel, sent the file, executed it it finished building and ran natively	06:19
lcuk	b-man, got one, compile natively for x86 there	06:19
lcuk	still sat at my windows computer though	06:20
b-man	heh	06:20
lcuk	windows desktop ide beats anything linuxy ive tried so far, xp is nice for mouse	06:21
johnx	why would you want to use a mouse?	06:21
alterego	Erm, sshfs means the files are accessible on the tablet as soon as they're compiled.	06:21
lcuk	but im getting used to having nice linux machines	06:21
* johnx stares warily at his mouse		06:21
b-man	i wonder how windows 7 will be like...	06:21
lcuk	johnx, gorilla arm	06:21
alterego	All you need to use ssh for is executing the program ..	06:21
alterego	And there's sbrsh :P	06:21
Toba	ok I have	06:21
Toba	DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=unix:path=/tmp/session_bus_socket,guid=ad9eee430b220449e5d5d100495d95ff	06:21
Toba	DBUS_SESSION_BUS_PID=5518	06:21
alterego	Though I've not actually used that yet.	06:21
lcuk	a mouse driven ui wastes about 90% of the space when used with a pen	06:21
Toba	how can I use this with dbus-send to talk to the program?	06:21
lcuk	and you end up having to be so precise its unrealy	06:22
lcuk	unreal	06:22
lcuk	anyway, 2 bed with me	06:22
johnx	'night lcuk	06:22
b-man	see ya!	06:22
Toba	to be honest I prefer dcop	06:23
Toba	to dbus	06:23
Toba	it doesn't hurt my head	06:23
johnx	yeah, dbus can be a little bit scary at times	06:23
b-man	can any one help me with this; i just installed ubuntu on my N800 but even though it booted with allmost no errors, gdm refuses to launch.	06:25
b-man	i'm using xserver-xorg.	06:26
b-man	with omap drivers.	06:26
johnx	can you run X manually?	06:26
Toba	wow	06:27
Toba	I feel like a jerk now	06:27
Toba	I just realized that I can just install a different pdf viewer	06:27
b-man	i could, but i dont have a keyboard to type anything in the console.	06:27
Toba	instead of killing myself to talk to the built in one	06:27
* Toba hangs head in shame.		06:27
johnx	Toba, no worries. :)	06:27
johnx	b-man, well, that would make things difficult. maybe ssh in?	06:28
Toba	apt-get install evince	06:28
Toba	that is all I needed	06:28
Toba	thanks for your help, guys.	06:28
b-man	i don't know how to use ssh. :P	06:28
b-man	sad, isn't it...	06:28
johnx	b-man, do you have wireless setup in ubuntu on your tablet?	06:29
johnx	alternatively, can you plug your tablet in via usb to your desktop? if so you can use the "emergency telnet daemon"	06:30
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b-man	could i chroot in?, i don't have a working linux computer atm...	06:30
b-man	:(	06:31
johnx	ah, yeah. but you can't test X while chrooted	06:31
b-man	is it possible to ssh in locally on my tablet?	06:32
johnx	sure, but I don't see how that helps. it's the same as being in an x terminal	06:32
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b-man	i think i do have a fuew logs from the xserver, also i've noticed that xserver-xorg keeps falling back on "xorg.conf.failsafe - that might be the sorce of the issue.	06:35
johnx	probably means it's crashing	06:35
b-man	could i send you the logs va e-mail?	06:36
johnx	just put them on pastebin.ca	06:36
johnx	that way other people can have a look if they want	06:36
b-man	i don't think my xchat has a pastebin plugin :P	06:37
johnx	huh? but it has an email plugin? :P	06:38
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b-man	it has a file-transfer plugin - would that help?	06:38
johnx	I don't think I can receive files from dcc	06:39
johnx	I'm behind too many firewalls :/	06:39
b-man	oh, got to go - need to do some chores - see you in ah hour or so..	06:40
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b-man	i'm back	06:57
b-man	jhonx, you there?	06:58
johnx	yup	06:58
johnx	still here	06:58
b-man	:)	06:58
b-man	i'm trying to find an easy way to show you those logs...	06:59
b-man	;)	06:59
johnx	they're on an sd card, right?	06:59
b-man	yes	06:59
b-man	in the ubuntu partition :)	07:00
b-man	heh	07:00
johnx	boot into maemo, open the log in text editor, copy into pastebin.ca . presto :)	07:00
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b-man	using my cdeb2» software to gain acsess to my ubuntu partition...	07:02
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b-man	jhonx; http://pastebin.ca/1298072 - my xorg log	07:07
johnx	did you specify that you want to use omapfb driver in your xorg.conf?	07:08
johnx	it's erroring out trying to load the "vesa" video driver...which it shouldn't try to load	07:08
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b-man	i actually used a xorg.conf from mer, witch included all of the specifications, but xorg refuses to use it and automaticly falls back on xorg.conf.failsafe and uses wron parameters.	07:10
johnx	do you have the log from when X decides to use the xorg.conf.failsafe?	07:13
b-man	that was the log...	07:14
b-man	i think...	07:16
johnx	usually what happens is that X fails to start and then it runs a new X server that uses the xorg.conf.failsafe	07:16
b-man	hmmm	07:16
johnx	do you have any other logs?	07:17
b-man	i'll look	07:17
johnx	and while you're at it, put up your xorg.conf . I wonder if you might be using an old xorg.conf or an old copy of the omapfb x driver	07:17
AStorm	esp. verbose .8 log	07:18
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AStorm	should be in /var/log	07:18
AStorm	split city :P	07:19
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AStorm	woo, more :)	07:31
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b-man	how are so many people logging in/out at once!?!? - or am i going lonny :P	07:34
AStorm	heheh	07:35
AStorm	it's a netsplit	07:35
AStorm	btw, do we have an n8x0 build of ghc? (glasgow haskell compiler)	07:36
b-man	i have no idia :P	07:36
johnx	AStorm, I was really impressed how you commanded it to happen :D	07:36
AStorm	hehehe	07:37
AStorm	just a coincidence	07:37
johnx	right. whatever you say. I'll just remember not to make you angry so you don't kick me off the internet O_o	07:38
b-man	johnx, did you get those log files? - i mostly just packed up my /var/log directory in a .tar.gz	07:38
AStorm	(and a bit of future seeing)	07:39
johnx	what gdm are you using?	07:41
AStorm	I recommend startx	07:41
AStorm	::P	07:41
johnx	AStorm, he has no keyboard, and no way to ssh or telnet	07:42
AStorm	whoops	07:42
AStorm	then timed startx in a script	07:42
AStorm	:)	07:42
AStorm	as long as he can flash	07:42
b-man	the one that was installed when i installed ubuntu-desktop (gnome display manager)	07:42
AStorm	mhm, gdm	07:43
AStorm	it probably hijacks the log	07:43
johnx	are you using one of the X packages from deblet?	07:43
b-man	no, but i did install insserv for ubuntu.	07:44
johnx	somehow you have xomap installed I think	07:45
johnx	instead of xserver-xorg-video-omapfb	07:45
b-man	i'll check synaptic.. hold on...	07:45
johnx	yeah, search for anything omap	07:45
johnx	er...maybe scratch that. it really looks like you have part of the gdm config to run xomap, but X is linked to Xorg	07:46
AStorm	again	07:47
AStorm	do we have a package of ghc for maemo?	07:47
johnx	probably not	07:47
b-man	with the exception of xorg omap drivers, nothing else	07:48
b-man	no xomap-xserver	07:49
johnx	ok, I was probably wrong on that. it looks like gdm is supplying the right options to run xomap, but is passing them Xorg	07:49
b-man	that might have ben caused because i was running some apps from chroot in maemo.	07:49
b-man	do you think it could be gdm-conf?	07:50
johnx	yes, that's probably it. where did you get it from?	07:51
b-man	from deblet :)	07:51
johnx	:P	07:51
b-man	hehehe	07:51
johnx	why don't you just grab a Mer image?	07:52
b-man	because mer doesn't have gdm.conf	07:52
b-man	it uses hildon	07:52
johnx	how will you use gdm without a keyboard?	07:53
b-man	auto login :)	07:53
johnx	in a sec, I'll have an alternative to gdm called auto-startx :)	07:53
b-man	huh?	07:53
johnx	it will run startx from init.d	07:54
johnx	Mer's hildon plays nicer with other desktop environments than Nokia's hildon	07:54
AStorm	an init script	07:55
AStorm	:)	07:55
johnx	think of it as a display manager replacement that always auto-logins as a certain user	07:56
johnx	but in this case people can at least pick the user and desktop env it runs	07:56
johnx	or easily replace it with gdm, kdm, wdm, xdm	07:56
johnx	in fact, the goal is to have apt-get install gdm "do the right thing" (tm) from a default mer install	07:58
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b-man	so this script will automaticly log me in on console, startx, log me in on gnome, and drop me off at my desktop?	08:00
johnx	that's the idea	08:00
johnx	I'll see if it works in a sec :)	08:00
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AStorm	really, please do steal ubuntu init	08:01
AStorm	:P	08:01
johnx	huh?	08:01
johnx	not sure I understand? does ubuntu have something that does this?	08:01
b-man	god it's late; 1:02 am here :p	08:03
johnx	well, then don't stay up waiting for my package	08:03
johnx	it will be a bit yet	08:04
b-man	k	08:04
b-man	see you tomorrow ;)	08:04
b-man	g'night	08:04
johnx	'night :)	08:04
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AStorm	johnx, as in, get rid of the broken maemo init	08:11
AStorm	:)	08:11
johnx	yes	08:11
johnx	it's done	08:11
AStorm	:)	08:11
johnx	it will run the same way x-display-manager runs in debuntu	08:12
AStorm	as a bonus, you can use upstart properly	08:12
johnx	is there a tutorial I could read on that?	08:13
johnx	for now I'll be happy to just make it get into a desktop env	08:13
AStorm	no idea yet :)	08:13
johnx	then it can wait til later I guess	08:14
johnx	that should be easy to shoehorn in later in a "polishing" stage...maybe even by you? :D	08:14
AStorm	:)	08:15
AStorm	are you working on fremantle by any chance?	08:15
johnx	in mer? largely	08:16
johnx	but the fremantle pre-alpha-sdk mostly consists of a diablo-like environment	08:16
johnx	no fancy-shmancy 3D stuff added yet	08:16
AStorm	hm	08:16
johnx	just some version bumps	08:16
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Stskeeps	morning	09:57
johnx	mornin'	09:57
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RST38h	moo johnx	10:34
johnx	m00f RST38h	10:34
konttori	moo all	10:34
* konttori begins today his adobe flex tests		10:34
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RST38h	reboot.	10:48
johnx	no.	10:48
johnx	don't. wanna.	10:48
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Jaffa	Morning, all	11:16
johnx	mornin' Jaffa	11:21
Vulcanis	:\	11:22
Vulcanis	not tired	11:22
Vulcanis	04:22:34	11:22
Vulcanis	:\	11:22
johnx	I could try and bore you to sleep	11:23
Vulcanis	doesn't work	11:23
Vulcanis	I've already tried	11:23
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bef0rd	lolz	11:32
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johnx	Vulcanis, read the debian new package maintainers guide	11:40
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johnx	if you don't fall asleep you can start packaging things for extras :D	11:40
Vulcanis	johnx: link?	11:40
Vulcanis	I'll read it during school	11:40
Vulcanis	I can't actually code, so I might as well do something else useful	11:41
johnx	http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/	11:41
johnx	it really will help you sleep :)	11:41
Vulcanis	it won't, but thats ok	11:41
Vulcanis	its more entertaining than what I was doing	11:41
Vulcanis	but I'm saving it for school	11:41
Vulcanis	when theres nothing else to do. Except learn, I guess, but no one really teaches	11:41
Vulcanis	its review for fscking midterms	11:41
johnx	fucking midterms? O_o sounds interesting to me? how is it scored?	11:42
Vulcanis	Stamina, I would guess.	11:43
johnx	typical. no one ever appreciates unique style	11:44
Vulcanis	they're midterms, what do you expect?	11:45
Vulcanis	thats like saying "Typical, SATs don't ever grade on the quality of the cat you make on the bubblesheet"	11:46
johnx	but it was such a great picture!	11:46
* johnx sulks		11:46
johnx	...had dithering too... :/	11:46
Vulcanis	Can SAT scores affect you after you get into college?	11:48
Vulcanis	I don't think so...	11:48
Vulcanis	so after I'm in, I should go back	11:48
Vulcanis	pay the 80 or whatever	11:48
Vulcanis	and answer all Cs	11:48
Vulcanis	and see my score	11:48
johnx	see if you can prove whether there's correlation or not?	11:48
Vulcanis	no, I just have a feeling I'll get a 75% of 2600 or whatever the new score is	11:49
johnx	so nice to have escaped with only taking the two tests	11:49
Vulcanis	even if the essay part is just "Cccc Cc Cccc: c Ccc cc Cccc. cccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc"	11:49
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Vulcanis	I only took one, and it was horrid	11:49
johnx	by two I mean math and verbal	11:50
Vulcanis	ah	11:50
Vulcanis	I don't see the point in this next semester	11:50
Vulcanis	I'll relearn it all in college	11:50
johnx	do it now and then you can screw around in college while everyone has to work	11:51
johnx	that's the point	11:51
AStorm	:P	11:52
AStorm	not really	11:52
AStorm	and maybe have a shot at a better paid job	11:52
AStorm	just maybe	11:52
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johnx	s/better//	11:52
johnx	fixed it for you :)	11:52
AStorm	<blink>better</blink>	11:53
AStorm	;)	11:53
AStorm	well, try to get into IT industry w/o degree	11:53
AStorm	I wish you luck.	11:53
johnx	my point was the opposite :P	11:54
johnx	but actually I did	11:54
AStorm	hm?	11:54
AStorm	probably in the US?	11:54
johnx	my point was "try to get a paid job w/o degree in this eceonomy"	11:54
johnx	but yes, in the US	11:54
AStorm	here it's impossible unless you have conections	11:54
AStorm	ah	11:54
AStorm	yes, a bit hard	11:55
AStorm	and degrees are overrated	11:55
johnx	I had 3 years of experience as a linux sysadmin before I was out of high school	11:55
johnx	helped for sure :)	11:55
AStorm	heh	11:55
AStorm	sysadmin for whom? :P	11:55
johnx	the school	11:55
johnx	ahaha	11:55
AStorm	heh	11:55
AStorm	myself I set up their server	11:55
johnx	I'd get called out of class to fix shit :)	11:55
AStorm	and admined it and net for 3y too	11:55
AStorm	but, this country is a stuck up b*tch	11:56
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AStorm	and they won't hire a sysadmin w/o a degree	11:56
AStorm	:P	11:56
johnx	hard to get anywhere without a degree here either, but getting a degree here is easier than in the US for sure	11:56
AStorm	idiot managers	11:56
AStorm	yup	11:56
AStorm	same here	11:56
AStorm	but I'm now required to get 2mo of work experience...	11:57
AStorm	in the field	11:57
AStorm	w/o any degree	11:57
AStorm	to get the engineer one	11:57
AStorm	:P	11:57
AStorm	catch 22	11:57
johnx	win :)	11:57
johnx	did you put your experience in high school on your cv/resume/job app?	11:58
AStorm	I'll apply for a cushy spot in a cert company	11:58
AStorm	johnx, I'm yet to send it, I will obviously	11:58
johnx	good. some people forget the whole "work experience" != "job experience"	11:59
AStorm	johnx, the trick is hat companies are refunded for our "practice"	11:59
johnx	hat companies?	11:59
AStorm	even then not many want us poor uni students	11:59
AStorm	:P	11:59
johnx	pictures AStorm sewing baseball caps :)	11:59
AStorm	*that	12:00
AStorm	they just have to run these short practices	12:00
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AStorm	or may even just hire a student, they'll get refunded 2 months	12:00
johnx	ah, probably not the quality of the workers so much as the fact that 2 months is barely enough to make most people productive	12:00
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AStorm	but of course, no, it's too much bother	12:00
AStorm	yup	12:01
AStorm	and nobody wants a student	12:01
AStorm	or even an intern w/o a degree	12:01
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AStorm	talk about our uni being disadvantaged	12:01
johnx	I was somewhat lucky to be starting into the "real world" job market before the current economy	12:01
AStorm	heh yeah	12:02
johnx	would have been awesome to start in 95/96 instead of 05/06	12:02
AStorm	.com fun	12:02
glass	AStorm: try to get to know the right people	12:03
johnx	I'd be dictating from my marble throne what interms should type into my IRC client	12:03
glass	AStorm: or scoring freelance gigs	12:03
AStorm	freelancing w/o a degree is impossible here	12:04
AStorm	:P	12:04
glass	AStorm: you're on the internet	12:04
AStorm	fun,eh?	12:04
glass	it's not impossible :)	12:04
glass	AStorm: i don't have a degree..	12:04
AStorm	yup, if you tell me who will hire a programmer	12:05
glass	well, what can you do	12:05
AStorm	I can't do weeb design :P	12:05
AStorm	*web	12:05
glass	plenty easy to get shady php jobs from shady forums ;)	12:05
AStorm	shady = not counting as work experience	12:05
AStorm	money is not a problem just yet	12:06
AStorm	because I got one shady job writing DVDRW firmware some time ago :P	12:06
johnx	that's awesome	12:07
AStorm	but, it was shady, so nobody knows :P	12:07
AStorm	which friggin sucks	12:07
* johnx remembers installing hacked firmware on his first DVD drive. skeery stuff :)		12:08
AStorm	funny assembly for oldie chips	12:08
AStorm	you'd wonder what old hardware is still in use in embeddeed	12:08
johnx	I don't wonder. I know	12:09
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Stskeeps	z80? :P	12:09
johnx	I believe it	12:09
johnx	why upgrade if you don't have to?	12:09
AStorm	actually, 8051 family	12:09
Vulcanis	[05:03:24] <johnx> I'd be dictating from my marble throne what interms should type into my IRC client -- until 2000, when you're out on the streets begging for money to pay your 56k habit	12:09
AStorm	:P	12:09
AStorm	that's why I got a laugh when our uni had 8051 programming course	12:10
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AStorm	*when I noticed	12:10
johnx	Vulcanis, true. the past ain't what it used to be and/or the past sucks	12:10
Vulcanis	johnx: No, it was amazing until the bubble burst	12:10
AStorm	new old tech chips are great	12:11
AStorm	tiny, power efficient. indestructible	12:11
Vulcanis	I just want a job after college	12:11
johnx	Vulcanis, but amazing at 56K. no youtube, no rss, no decent ARM linux devices	12:11
AStorm	Vulcanis, a job... easy	12:11
Vulcanis	AStorm: Not if the US economy keeps up	12:11
johnx	Vulcanis, what kind of life is that? really?	12:11
Vulcanis	fine	12:11
Vulcanis	a decent job	12:11
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AStorm	Vulcanis, now, that's different	12:12
Vulcanis	John: One with animated gifs instead of youtube...?	12:12
johnx	even all your base wasn't until after 2000, right?	12:12
Vulcanis	well	12:12
AStorm	johnx, no, with Flash 1.0	12:12
Vulcanis	it was	12:12
AStorm	and java	12:12
Vulcanis	but the meme never actually came up until around 98	12:12
Vulcanis	97-99ish	12:12
Vulcanis	Ah, 97	12:12
Vulcanis	back when quicktime was a windows thang	12:12
AStorm	hehe	12:13
AStorm	I started at 96 myself	12:13
AStorm	and at 95 Poland got connected to the Internet in a real commercial way	12:13
AStorm	:P	12:13
AStorm	as in popular dialup	12:13
AStorm	get a backseat, right? :P	12:14
AStorm	mp3 was all the rage	12:14
johnx	I miss napster	12:15
AStorm	haha	12:15
AStorm	nevr got to use it	12:15
Vulcanis	mp3 is still 'all the rage'	12:16
Vulcanis	if you can fit 1000000000 songs on 32gb	12:16
AStorm	fasttrack grew and died too	12:16
AStorm	Vulcanis, no, now it's common	12:16
Vulcanis	Ah, I guess your right	12:16
Vulcanis	back then a netbook was a pda	12:17
Vulcanis	and had no net	12:17
Stskeeps	didn't fasttrack die cos many people got terribly sick of the adware? :P	12:17
Vulcanis	oh gods	12:17
Vulcanis	no wifi. wired internet on laptops	12:17
Stskeeps	and bittorrent came along	12:17
Vulcanis	what the hell did people do back then?!	12:17
johnx	IR :D	12:17
Vulcanis	IR didn't really work for webbernets	12:17
* johnx can IRDA to his phone from his zaurus		12:18
AStorm	aptops? far too expensive back then	12:18
AStorm	*laptops	12:18
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Vulcanis	laptops were not!	12:18
Vulcanis	we had a 1500 business laptop from dell	12:18
Vulcanis	it was built like a brick	12:18
AStorm	maybe in the US	12:18
Vulcanis	a fragile, plastic brick	12:18
Vulcanis	1500USD	12:18
johnx	Vulcanis, and it wasn't expensive?	12:18
AStorm	we got to build machines ourselves due to prices	12:18
Vulcanis	Johnx: Not for what laptops were	12:19
* Stskeeps prefers building machines too		12:19
Vulcanis	and it was about double a desktop back then	12:19
Vulcanis	building machines = cheaper and better	12:19
AStorm	1500 $ of '95 was back then 4x local salary	12:19
AStorm	good one too	12:19
AStorm	or more	12:19
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johnx	I link this every time the past comes up: http://web.archive.org/web/19970108031014/www.coupland.com/story7.htm	12:23
AStorm	paris was good	12:25
AStorm	try Poland or Russia at the time	12:25
AStorm	:P	12:25
AStorm	you could at least meet Lavoisier :P	12:25
johnx	and then die of tuberculosis at the age of 30! woo!	12:26
AStorm	better than dying of starvation	12:27
AStorm	:P	12:27
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johnx	or better yet: not dying of either...	12:27
AStorm	yes, past was sucky until XX century	12:27
johnx	the 20th?	12:28
AStorm	like, at worst 1880s or so, England	12:28
johnx	the late 20th century was marginally bearable	12:28
AStorm	the early was ok too	12:28
AStorm	with major improvements in most parts of world	12:29
AStorm	or maybe, a few :P	12:29
AStorm	mostly US and GB	12:29
johnx	doctors were still more likely to kill you than fix you	12:29
bakarat	what's a good command line editor for maemo?	12:29
bakarat	nano/vim are not found?	12:29
AStorm	johnx, whatever	12:29
AStorm	but hygiene was finally existent	12:29
Vulcanis	vim should be there	12:29
johnx	bakarat, nano should be available	12:29
AStorm	vi is there	12:30
AStorm	from busybox	12:30
Vulcanis	vi is ebil	12:30
Vulcanis	vim is 19 fucking mb last I saw, though	12:30
Vulcanis	the package , atleast	12:30
AStorm	you can install nano and vim	12:30
AStorm	yes, so what?	12:30
AStorm	it's the editor	12:30
Vulcanis	huge :(	12:30
bakarat	i'll see if i can find nano hehe :>	12:31
AStorm	nano is bad due to ctrl+foo binds	12:31
mavhc	I use nano, if it ever got soft line wrapping it'd be good	12:31
AStorm	and hildon-i-m not having sticky ctrl	12:31
Vulcanis	well	12:32
Vulcanis	xterm has the ctrl thing	12:32
AStorm	which sucks :)	12:32
bakarat	i actually like the ctrl binds in nano	12:32
Vulcanis	its better than nothing	12:32
bakarat	might be slightly more annoying on the nokia device though hehe	12:32
Vulcanis	you won't with the nokia	12:32
Vulcanis	yeah	12:32
AStorm	vim is better than that	12:32
mavhc	just hold down ctrl then	12:32
AStorm	these 19 MB is not all that much	12:32
AStorm	mavhc, yeah right	12:33
AStorm	also, vim here now supports touchscreen some	12:33
AStorm	can switch tabs with clicks, and select text	12:33
AStorm	and have colorful syntax highlighting	12:33
AStorm	a win for me, now can really write code on the move	12:34
AStorm	(with a modified keymap)	12:35
johnx	I wonder how long it will be until someone really gets a mobile computer right...	12:38
AStorm	n810 is mostly right	12:38
AStorm	:)	12:38
AStorm	we need a foldable keyboard and screen	12:38
AStorm	materials aren't there yet	12:39
johnx	a little more expandability, more power and more battery life at full load	12:39
AStorm	battery life is fairly good, but those everun umpcs were much better	12:40
mavhc	psion's series 5 had the best keyboard	12:40
AStorm	though too large	12:40
AStorm	mavhc, hmm, no, this e60/n810 one is almost as good	12:40
AStorm	this part Nokia got right	12:41
AStorm	(except dpad and menu key :P)	12:41
johnx	battery life at full load isn't quite there yet, IMHO. 2 hours of really high usage is a little short	12:41
AStorm	2h? meh	12:42
AStorm	I have 5h at worst	12:42
AStorm	what are you doing with it to get 2h?	12:42
johnx	web browsing	12:42
Vulcanis	quake/dn3d	12:42
Vulcanis	>.>	12:42
mavhc	psion 5 was the full size of the device as it was clamshell	12:42
johnx	but my battery is probably on the way out	12:42
Vulcanis	johnx: brightness settings?	12:42
AStorm	even movies don't eat it that fast	12:42
johnx	20% usually	12:42
AStorm	web browsing with bt gives 7h	12:42
Vulcanis	yeah	12:42
Vulcanis	I run it at 10 :\	12:43
Vulcanis	and I get like, 4-6 browsing	12:43
AStorm	I run at 20%	12:43
johnx	also, my battery is coming up on 2 years	12:43
AStorm	ah, old one	12:43
johnx	time for a new one I suppose :/	12:43
AStorm	mine's still new	12:43
AStorm	you've lost 50% capacity or more	12:43
johnx	why are batteries so freaking expensive? >_<	12:43
AStorm	because they're expensive to make	12:44
AStorm	:P	12:44
johnx	bare Li-ion cells are cheap	12:44
AStorm	not that small cells	12:44
AStorm	also, n810's is li-poly	12:44
johnx	bleh. I'll cut a hole in the cover and attach a camcorder battery.	12:45
AStorm	note, these are prismatic cells, not standard packs	12:45
johnx	battery life problems: solved	12:45
AStorm	:P	12:45
AStorm	weight problem added	12:45
AStorm	and size too	12:45
johnx	better grip	12:45
AStorm	worse imo	12:45
AStorm	and hands would hurt	12:45
johnx	"tablet claw" :)	12:45
AStorm	it's heavy enough as it is	12:45
mavhc	2 years of battery usage for $15, that's not expensive	12:46
johnx	$15 for a real Nokia battery?	12:46
AStorm	$15? where?	12:46
johnx	or even a 3rd part one that I have a reasonable expectation of working	12:46
johnx	more like $40, isn't it?	12:47
AStorm	$50 is plausible	12:47
AStorm	yes	12:47
mavhc	dunno, just asked froogle	12:47
johnx	ooh, seeing a bp-5l for $30. might have to pick that up	12:47
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AStorm	:P	12:48
AStorm	see, I've bp-4l	12:48
mavhc	how many mAh should it be?	12:49
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AStorm	1200 or so?	12:49
johnx	bp-5l is 1500mAh	12:49
AStorm	1150 I think	12:49
AStorm	ah	12:49
AStorm	right	12:49
AStorm	my bad	12:49
AStorm	so bp-4l is the same	12:49
johnx	is it?	12:49
AStorm	just smaller and more sturdy	12:49
AStorm	I can check	12:50
johnx	hmm...maybe that's not right	12:50
johnx	one sec	12:50
`Mace	wow	12:50
`Mace	i love android	12:50
`Mace	it really is pretty good	12:51
AStorm	meh	12:51
johnx	how's it feel in terms of screen refreshes?	12:51
`Mace	i dont notice it	12:52
`Mace	im on it now	12:52
`Mace	well.. on my g1/htc dream	12:52
mavhc	someone said that android apps, being in java, not native, would always be slower	12:52
johnx	aaah, I see. thought you meant on a tablet	12:52
`Mace	well.. they seem to run fine to me	12:53
AStorm	mavhc, not necessarily with thnat jazelle stuf we have	12:53
`Mace	i mean. what would they have to compare it to? ;)	12:53
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AStorm	not a whole lot slower at least	12:54
`Mace	wish i could run it on my n800	12:54
`Mace	g1 is pretty nice tho	12:54
johnx	jazelle apparently a) wouldn't make a huge difference and b) probably won't ever be used under linux until licensing changes	12:54
`Mace	i think mostly due to the os and qwerty	12:55
johnx	`Mace, look up NITdroid	12:55
`Mace	other than that it's flimsy	12:55
AStorm	johnx, linux license? why?	12:56
`Mace	my n800 became kind of irrilavent	12:56
johnx	AStorm, something about them never wanting the source to get out	12:56
`Mace	johnx . nitdroid?	12:56
qwerty12	http://guug.org/nit/nitdroid/	12:56
johnx	`Mace, android for the n8x0	12:56
AStorm	johnx, who? sun?	12:56
`Mace	does it work?	12:57
`Mace	;)	12:57
AStorm	as jazelle is not microcoded	12:57
qwerty12	`Mace, if it didn't, I don't think it would be much of a project ;)	12:57
johnx	AStorm, it's not really java-specific. it's whoever licenses the jazelle tech.	12:57
AStorm	ARM inc.	12:57
`Mace	haha	12:58
AStorm	no, jazelle is just a way to run bytecode directly on cpu	12:58
AStorm	at least some	12:58
`Mace	sounds awesome	12:58
AStorm	a bunch of microcode	12:58
`Mace	ill check it out soon	12:58
johnx	AStorm, well there's probably a good reason that google isn't using it...	12:58
AStorm	apis are public, the microcode is not	12:58
AStorm	they aren't, because they don't have a right vm	12:59
AStorm	they'd have to buy one	12:59
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AStorm	or write one:P	12:59
AStorm	which is a fairly large project	12:59
johnx	they've strung ASM throughout that VM. writing one is not the problem	12:59
AStorm	hm	12:59
AStorm	they might be using it	12:59
AStorm	partially at least	13:00
AStorm	the big part is reducing cost of call stack handling	13:00
johnx	they're not	13:00
johnx	as of nov 12	13:00
johnx	I can find the quote on licensing if you want. just a sec	13:00
AStorm	maybe they found it not faster than usual native arm asm	13:00
AStorm	gimme	13:01
AStorm	johnx, now I have 4h to go :>	13:01
AStorm	my cell phone tether will die before n810	13:02
bakarat	once i download some maps, is there a way for me to plot a route on the n810?	13:02
bakarat	(using maemo mapper)	13:02
AStorm	sure	13:03
bakarat	i mean can i say like "from this street/city to this street/city"?	13:03
AStorm	you can even store the route	13:03
`Mace	hm	13:03
AStorm	yes	13:03
bakarat	AStorm, how?	13:03
`Mace	seems interesting	13:03
AStorm	it's in the menu	13:03
bakarat	atm all i can find to enter a route is a single text field that doesn't allow for streets it seems?	13:03
AStorm	use a comma	13:03
AStorm	:P	13:03
bakarat	ah? :D	13:03
AStorm	it uses Google Maps syntax	13:03
bakarat	i've never extensively used google maps :D	13:04
`Mace	well.. g1 replaced the n800 for mobile use	13:04
AStorm	anything Google Maps will take, it will too	13:04
bakarat	well that's good to know :D	13:04
johnx	`Mace, how's battery life?	13:04
bakarat	once my new batch of maps is in, i will give it a whirl AStorm :D	13:04
`Mace	guess i can still use the n800 at home	13:04
`Mace	good	13:04
johnx	getting through a whole day with it?	13:04
bakarat	also, if i tell it to download another area of maps...will it remove the previous area?	13:04
bakarat	or will it append?	13:04
AStorm	bakarat, example: London, Leicester Sq.	13:04
`Mace	lol	13:05
AStorm	can give it a number too	13:05
bakarat	nice :D	13:05
`Mace	5 to 6 hrs of hard use	13:05
`Mace	uses usb cbl to charge tho	13:05
AStorm	`Mace, nice	13:05
`Mace	so that helps	13:05
AStorm	how's the text input?	13:05
AStorm	real keyboard?	13:06
`Mace	pretty good	13:06
`Mace	5 row qwerty	13:06
bakarat	btw, is there a way to speed up the gps fix?	13:06
AStorm	nice	13:06
bakarat	it's slow beyond comprehension :\|	13:06
AStorm	bakarat, install agps app from repos	13:06
bakarat	ah thanks :D	13:06
AStorm	it will help a bit	13:06
`Mace	buttons need some getting used to	13:06
jaska	the first gps fix my n810 ever got took 24h+ :D	13:06
jaska	nowadays its not so slow	13:06
AStorm	but the problem is sucky GPS chip	13:06
AStorm	and poor antenna	13:06
`Mace	interface is beautifuk	13:07
`Mace	er	13:07
`Mace	k/l	13:07
AStorm	it will take 1-3min	13:07
Vulcanis	AStorm: gps for gps	13:07
bakarat	AStorm, only extra repository i got enabled is "extra's" atm	13:07
Vulcanis	n810 for n810 things	13:07
bakarat	is it in one of those repo's?	13:07
AStorm	Vulcanis, no, Google Satellite ftw	13:07
X-Fade	bakarat: It is in the tableteer repo.	13:07
AStorm	bakarat, in extras	13:07
X-Fade	bakarat: Which is enabled by default.	13:07
`Mace	i almost wish there were an android wm for X	13:07
bakarat	odd	13:07
johnx	AStorm, can't find a quote from google, but the word seems to be that ARM won't release info on how to initialize jazelle rct to any open source group	13:07
AStorm	X-Fade, in tableteer now? mmh	13:07
`Mace	well.. bbl	13:08
X-Fade	AStorm: Never been in Extras.	13:08
bakarat	X-Fade, AStorm the package itself is called "agps" right?	13:08
AStorm	johnx, NDA fail, damn	13:08
AStorm	agps-beta	13:08
X-Fade	bakarat: agps-ui	13:08
AStorm	or that	13:08
AStorm	whatever	13:08
AStorm	search for it	13:08
AStorm	:)	13:08
bakarat	o right, has search option	13:08
bakarat	lol :P	13:08
bakarat	sorry :P	13:08
johnx	AStorm, word also seems to be that it's not as much of an improvement as you'd think. mainly helps with startup time or somesuch	13:09
X-Fade	bakarat: A-GPS in AM.	13:09
AStorm	johnx, meh	13:09
johnx	AStorm, rest assured, google would have done it if it was worth it.	13:09
bakarat	"no matches found" AStorm :s	13:10
AStorm	try a-gps	13:10
bakarat	"no matches found" :(	13:10
AStorm	because I'm in redpill (yeah, bleeding edge and all)	13:10
AStorm	baka	13:10
AStorm	bakarat, check if you have tableteer repo enabled	13:10
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woglinde	jo	13:11
AStorm	also, is a-gps available for chinook?	13:11
johnx	yo woglinde	13:11
X-Fade	AStorm: no	13:11
Vulcanis	eww, chinook	13:11
AStorm	I know it's for diablo	13:11
AStorm	bakarat, ^	13:11
X-Fade	Diablo only.	13:11
AStorm	so, you need diablo	13:11
bakarat	"nokia catalogue", "nokia catalogue (3rd party software)" "nokia system software udpates" "maemo extras"	13:11
AStorm	update the OS first	13:11
X-Fade	bakarat: It is in the first one.	13:11
bakarat	how do i do that?	13:11
AStorm	you download latest diablo image, nokia flasher etc.	13:12
AStorm	there's a guide somewhere	13:12
bakarat	o :\|	13:12
AStorm	google it :)	13:12
bakarat	was hoping for apt-get dist-upgrade or something :D	13:12
johnx	~flashing	13:12
infobot	rumour has it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	13:12
Vulcanis	are you on windows, baka?	13:12
AStorm	yup	13:12
Vulcanis	because windows makes it trivial	13:12
bakarat	Vulcanis, linux	13:12
AStorm	windows flasher can flash it too	13:12
AStorm	linux is simple too	13:12
AStorm	one command shouldn't scare anyone	13:13
Vulcanis	well then baka, you have to go through like six more steps, but its not terribad	13:13
AStorm	:P	13:13
AStorm	six?	13:13
AStorm	2	13:13
bakarat	well unless it's absolutly necessary, i'd rather not reflash :D	13:13
AStorm	oh, 3, need a chmod +x :P	13:13
bakarat	i just got the device almost to the point where it has to be :D	13:13
bakarat	just gotta update the gps thing a bit if at all possible :p	13:13
AStorm	bakarat, it is necessary	13:13
bakarat	AStorm, do i lose extra applications/settings etc? :\|	13:13
AStorm	hopefully the last reflash needed	13:13
bakarat	a reflash sounds...so terminal :\|	13:14
X-Fade	bakarat: Just run the backup utility.	13:14
AStorm	settings you can back up	13:14
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bakarat	does that include all the apps? :D	13:14
AStorm	some apps you'll probably have to reinstall	13:14
AStorm	:)	13:14
X-Fade	bakarat: On diablo it automatically reinstall all your apps after flash.	13:14
AStorm	it will attempt to install them for you	13:15
johnx	and the repository hell has cleared up since chinook	13:15
AStorm	and fail at it :P	13:15
AStorm	yes	13:15
AStorm	hopefully it'll work fine	13:15
johnx	most things worth having are really in extras or extras-devel now	13:15
AStorm	or in maemo devel	13:15
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AStorm	uhm, maemo tools	13:16
bakarat	gah don't want to lose my setup (spent the last 2 days tweaking most of it :'()	13:16
johnx	why didn't you update before tweaking?	13:16
AStorm	you probably won't	13:16
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AStorm	yeah, should've read the RSS	13:17
bakarat	i thought the n810 shipped with the latest :P	13:17
bakarat	i was s owrong :'(	13:17
Robot101	nothing ever ships with the latest	13:17
bakarat	and again, i'm used to "apt-get dist-upgrade" :D	13:17
bakarat	not "reflash" :D	13:17
AStorm	almost nothing :>	13:18
johnx	diablo is the last reflash	13:18
bakarat	so i didn't think it would wipe everything i've done so far :D	13:18
Robot101	there are usually about 2-3 months between the software being frozen and the devices actually hitting the shelves	13:18
X-Fade	bakarat: Go to diablo and it is your last reflash.	13:18
johnx	after that it's update from inside app manager	13:18
AStorm	bakarat, dist-upgrade is possible in diablo now :)	13:18
bakarat	yay :p	13:18
AStorm	but app manager can do full os upgrade now	13:18
Robot101	the first devices off the production line always have some embarrassing buggy crap software, the first point release is pretty much required to make it even vaguely usable :)	13:18
AStorm	which is really dist-upgrade :P	13:18
bakarat	:>	13:19
AStorm	Robot101, well, mine shipped with fairly ok chinook version	13:19
AStorm	though not latest	13:19
johnx	except that if you enable weird repos and try to dist-upgrade you may be in trouble	13:19
bakarat	well it will have to wait at least until the maps are in :P	13:19
Robot101	and some S60 phones stay buggy and crap even after you've reflashed them :D	13:19
bakarat	200 meg over wifi on the n810 takes aaaaaaaaaaaaaaages	13:19
AStorm	johnx, but the same can be told about app manager updatge :>	13:20
AStorm	bakarat, why? it can easily do 5-11Mbit	13:20
johnx	AStorm, it's generally more likely to succeed than dist-upgrade	13:20
bakarat	AStorm, i have no clue :\|	13:20
AStorm	that's nowhere near ages	13:20
AStorm	and you have to flash from the PC using usb cable	13:20
bakarat	AStorm, ye but the device is still busy :p	13:21
AStorm	local flash messes up always for me	13:21
AStorm	:P	13:21
bakarat	i installed iptraf to try and check the speed	13:21
bakarat	but...i can't find the app atm :p	13:21
AStorm	mhm	13:21
AStorm	run it from terminal, as root	13:21
bakarat	-sh: iptraf: not found	13:21
AStorm	it's /usr/sbin/iptraf	13:21
AStorm	also, as I said, you need root	13:21
bakarat	righty-o	13:22
bakarat	this program requires a screen size of at least 80 columns by 24 lines :\|	13:22
bakarat	hmmz :\|	13:22
AStorm	reduce font size then	13:22
bakarat	how do i do that?	13:22
AStorm	I normally use 14pt	13:23
AStorm	try zoom key for simple way	13:23
AStorm	and options for a permanent change	13:23
bakarat	o	13:23
AStorm	hmm	13:23
AStorm	I'm using 12pt actually	13:23
bakarat	hmm, the zoom thing isn't working i think	13:23
AStorm	DejaVu Sans Mono 12 ftw	13:24
bakarat	i've zoomed out to something that is near illegible	13:24
bakarat	still doesn't work :\|	13:24
AStorm	run reset	13:24
AStorm	(in the terminal)	13:24
bakarat	o wait, got it now	13:24
bakarat	it's incomprehensibly small now though :D	13:24
AStorm	so increase by a step	13:24
AStorm	or use Tools_>Settings	13:25
bakarat	40.20 kb/s	13:25
bakarat	33.4	13:25
bakarat	:\|	13:25
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AStorm	weird	13:25
AStorm	maybe nokia's server is overloaded	13:26
AStorm	or your route is bad :P	13:26
bakarat	it should be downloading from the openstreet maps thingy right?	13:26
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AStorm	hm?	13:26
bakarat	i'm downloading maps?	13:26
AStorm	weird	13:26
bakarat	bout 200 megs worth of them	13:26
AStorm	unless you're moving	13:26
bakarat	not really :\|	13:26
AStorm	or set a manual download	13:27
bakarat	nop	13:27
AStorm	then close mapper	13:27
johnx	I blame your router	13:27
bakarat	i'd rather not, he's bout 3/4 through it now :D	13:27
AStorm	you don't want that many maps	13:27
bakarat	johnx, i use the same wireless connection on 2 laptops	13:27
bakarat	no problem	13:27
bakarat	(both laptops are off atm :p)	13:27
johnx	your laptops don't use wifi powersaving as much	13:28
AStorm	it will work slow (as mapper is inefficient at handling a large number of maps)	13:28
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bakarat	o :\|	13:28
bakarat	crap :(	13:28
bakarat	but i need to travel within a certain area for my job	13:28
bakarat	so i wanted that area :(	13:28
AStorm	you want to download ondemand	13:28
AStorm	or you can download along a route	13:28
AStorm	:)	13:28
AStorm	also, you probably don't need all zoom levels	13:28
bakarat	download on demand is not possible (i think) since i don't have internet on the road	13:28
AStorm	mhm	13:28
bakarat	download along a route is all fine n dandy until you stray :D	13:29
AStorm	so download a small area at large scale	13:29
AStorm	and large area at small scale	13:29
bakarat	by small scale, you mean...like 15 and by large scale like 6? :P	13:29
bakarat	or the other way around? :p	13:29
AStorm	yes	13:29
bakarat	k :p	13:30
AStorm	although 15 is overkill	13:30
AStorm	imo 13 is the smallest useful	13:30
bakarat	atm i'm downloading 6-8-10-12	13:30
AStorm	ok	13:30
AStorm	esp. 6 takes a lot	13:30
bakarat	of the "big" area :p	13:30
bakarat	ye, but without street level precision, there is not much use to a gps :D	13:30
AStorm	I only grab the low levels around cities	13:30
bakarat	otherwise i might just take a compass along :D	13:30
AStorm	8 is enough	13:30
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AStorm	see it yourself	13:31
bakarat	i will once the damn download is done :D	13:31
bakarat	device is rather slow while it's busy downloading it seems	13:31
AStorm	and i've whole country at 12 :P	13:31
bakarat	:>	13:31
AStorm	nah, because mapper is fsyncing to hell	13:31
AStorm	and making immc busy	13:31
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bakarat	o	13:32
AStorm	which asserts irqs	13:32
bakarat	any idea why the wifi is so slow btw?	13:32
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AStorm	wifi isn't	13:32
bakarat	(except a router problem which i doubt a bit)	13:32
AStorm	unless cpu can't keep up	13:32
bakarat	well anything i do over wifi is slow, not only mapper	13:32
AStorm	which is unlikely	13:32
X-Fade	bakarat: You aren't downloading one big file, but 100000 small files.	13:32
AStorm	yes	13:32
AStorm	a large number of tiny files	13:32
AStorm	check vs some speedtest	13:33
johnx	bakarat, you could try disabling wifi power saving and see if things improve. if they do it's your router's fault	13:33
bakarat	guys, thanks for all the feedback, but i'm going to get something to eat :D	13:33
bakarat	johnx, will try that :>	13:33
X-Fade	So you are seeing a lot of small requests which all have a round trip, the app has to save these files to the FS, which takes a lot more time and cpu than one big one.	13:33
AStorm	also, note that immc can do only 500 KB/s	13:33
bakarat	o	13:34
johnx	also, it's mounted sync, isn't it?	13:34
AStorm	you need to write to a real card to dl faster	13:34
bakarat	dnno	13:34
AStorm	johnx, yes	13:34
bakarat	bbl guys :D	13:34
bakarat	again thanks for everything! :>	13:34
AStorm	sync doesn't slow down in case of normal download	13:35
AStorm	if the card can keep up	13:35
johnx	makes things more flexible though to let the kernel pick when to do I/O	13:38
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AStorm	johnx, yup	13:40
AStorm	and esp. as stupid mapper fsyncs to hell	13:40
AStorm	(actually, stupid sqlite)	13:40
johnx	I wonder how hard it would be to bring the newer maptile picture storage system to the newest maemo-mapper	13:41
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AStorm	johnx, moderately easy	13:47
AStorm	still, the author opposes it	13:47
AStorm	for no real reason	13:47
RST38h	johnx: what is wrong with the old one?	13:47
* RST38h remembers it changing at least once		13:47
johnx	RST38h, the oldest one? with a bunch of tiny files?	13:47
RST38h	guess so	13:48
johnx	there've been 3: tiny maptiles as pics, bigger maptiles as pics and an sqlite db	13:48
RST38h	an obscure bug in an old version of the Symbian OS could allow an attacker to crash a target's mobile phone with a specially-formatted text message.	13:48
RST38h	johnx: current one is the db?	13:48
johnx	yeah	13:48
johnx	and the one I like is the biggish maptiles as pics	13:48
johnx	but it was a random fork by some guy who only made one patch to one version	13:49
johnx	still, the speed improvement seems well worth it	13:49
RST38h	Enjoy: http://berlin.ccc.de/~tobias/cos/s60-curse-of-silence-advisory.txt	13:49
johnx	meh. saw it a while ago. is there an update to fix it?	13:50
RST38h	johnx: What is the original author's reason for opposing it?	13:50
RST38h	There is none	13:50
johnx	I think he likes the db solution	13:50
johnx	keeps your card nice and clean	13:50
RST38h	What about storing bigger tiles in db?	13:51
johnx	as in joining the maptiles, then storing them in the db?	13:51
johnx	I dunno specifics	13:52
AStorm	but sqlite is stupid fsync abuser	13:52
AStorm	any db that tries to do ACID using fsync is stupid	13:53
AStorm	it is not an api that guarantees anything	13:53
AStorm	in fact, Unix allows fsync to be noop	13:53
AStorm	:P	13:53
AStorm	and ext filesystems batch fsyncs up to its commit time	13:54
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johnx	then maybe the answer is for fsync to be a noop :>	13:54
AStorm	while xfs and reiserfs ignore it	13:54
AStorm	also, fsync is bad for multiuser systems	13:55
AStorm	(if implemented)	13:55
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AStorm	db people should be beaten with a posix stick :)	13:56
AStorm	or a 1-ton unix manual	13:57
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johnx	lots of people need to be hit with the unix stick	13:58
AStorm	e.g. emacs by default does fsync if backups are enabled	13:59
AStorm	evil :>	13:59
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gpd	maemo-mapper 2.53 seems VERY slow to render maps on N800 - is it just me? takes 7-10 seconds to do a full screen pan!	14:05
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gpd	i deleted the database and tried on mmc versus /home/user - makes no difference	14:06
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AStorm	hm	14:08
AStorm	I don't recall any changes in rendering code	14:08
AStorm	other than disabling bilinear smoothing	14:09
gpd	AStorm: what sort of speed do you get?	14:09
AStorm	and switching rotation code to simple 15 degree	14:09
AStorm	I have n810	14:09
gpd	I thought n800 and n810 were same spec processor?	14:10
qwerty12_	They are. The N800 was limited to 330MHZ in OS2007	14:10
gpd	are there any optimisations that can be done at user level? eg. turning off rotation or something?	14:10
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gpd	I am running latest OS2008 on the N800 with relatively clean install.	14:11
gpd	apart from installing sequentially from 2.2 upwards --- not sure what else i can do	14:11
gpd	any other tips?	14:11
gpd	i don't think it is just rendering - even downloading maps (5mbytes) is taking about 10 minutes!	14:12
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gpd	i thought the map DB might be corrupt - but deleting it should have fixed that	14:12
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gpd	i thought loading maps from the SD cards might be slower - but it doesn't seem to make much difference.	14:13
gpd	the only other thing is that i have quite a lot of POI points - maybe 200 -- would that affect things?	14:13
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kulve	is there an example how the extras-devel .install file should look like?	14:40
kulve	e.g. qt4 project seems to have this line there:	14:40
kulve	name = maemo Extras-Devell	14:40
qwerty12_N800	kulve, http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/diablo/install/	14:40
kulve	which I guess adds a separate extras-devell repo..	14:40
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woglinde	kulve the moo.install file is only for packing	14:41
kulve	packing?	14:41
woglinde	it tells the debian packaging utils which files should be installed where	14:42
kulve	I think we are now discussing about the other .install file	14:42
kulve	i.e. maemo .install, not debian .install	14:42
AStorm	the repo one? dl one from gronmayer :)	14:44
woglinde	kulve aehm this files seems to be generated automagicly	14:44
woglinde	I never defined something	14:44
woglinde	in my app	14:44
woglinde	and its there	14:44
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qwerty12_N800	<qwerty12_N800> kulve, http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/diablo/install/ cough	14:45
kulve	qwerty12_N800: yes, I copied one from there as an example. Thanks.	14:45
kulve	ah	14:46
kulve	now I see..	14:46
kulve	so that file in that repo is autogenerated?	14:46
kulve	and I should point to it..	14:46
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woglinde	kulve when you upload a package to devel-extras	14:46
kulve	yes	14:46
woglinde	you do not need extra .install file	14:47
kulve	yeah, I noticed	14:47
woglinde	people who use extras-devel already have the installer line	14:47
qwerty12_N800	Well, strictly speaking, if you are adding a package to the maemo catalog, it should only install from the extras repo	14:47
kulve	how does the statistics -stuff work? I have an entry in maemo.org/downloads and I have uploaded the packages to extras-devel. But how do I say which packages belong to that entry?	14:48
qwerty12_N800	I think you only define one package as part of the unix name	14:49
kulve	the project name is "ogg" and the debian package name is "ogg-support"..	14:50
qwerty12_N800	the unix name on your application listing should be the same as the package name, i think it says that when adding the entry	14:51
kulve	then it wouldn't match the garage.maemo.org page..	14:52
kulve	"Please use the same name as you use for your debian package."	14:52
kulve	I'll change it..	14:52
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woglinde	bye	15:02
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t_s_o	hmm, running android on a netbook, cute	15:16
AStorm	meh, netbooks are made obsolete with n810	15:17
* GAN800 shudders at upgrade misinformation.		15:17
AStorm	and a good desktop-laptop	15:17
GAN800	apt-get dist-upgrade is one quick way to reboot loop land	15:17
lcuk	what if netbooks all come with touchscreens?	15:17
AStorm	GAN800, hm?	15:17
AStorm	GAN800, not in diablo	15:17
GAN800	Yes, in Diablo.	15:18
GAN800	AStorm, please don't tell people it's safe.	15:18
AStorm	lcuk, they don't, and n810 is still better	15:18
GAN800	Because it's not.	15:18
AStorm	GAN800, did it, works	15:18
AStorm	you must have some dodgy repo on	15:18
GAN800	Not with the SDK repo	15:18
AStorm	:P	15:18
AStorm	ahha	15:18
AStorm	your fail	15:18
AStorm	.P	15:18
* RST38h moos at lcuk woefully		15:18
GAN800	Which Fring and others add in their .installs	15:18
GAN800	Not my fail	15:19
AStorm	bad people	15:19
AStorm	still yours	15:19
AStorm	:)	15:19
lcuk	AStorm, agreed, carrying round and using a bigger device feels wrong - i feel like a midget when i pickup my tabletpc and try to use it like my nokia	15:19
AStorm	disable it when not needed	15:19
RST38h	lcuk: May I tell you a story? =)	15:19
* alterego yawns		15:19
GAN800	AStorm, I'm so glad it works for you, but I don't want to clean up the mess when some newbie who tried Fring follows your 'advice'	15:19
AStorm	lcuk, and a powerful laptop for times when you need power	15:19
AStorm	GAN800, I didn't advise it	15:20
GAN800	AStorm, you claimed it was safe.	15:20
GAN800	It is not.	15:20
lcuk	AStorm, i never need power when on the move	15:20
lcuk	of course RST38h	15:20
GAN800	I'd ask you not to make the same claim in the future	15:20
GAN800	and also to not assume things about what I have and have not done. :)	15:21
RST38h	lcuk: When I was 16 years old I wanted to write an operating syste,	15:21
Stskeeps	johnx: how's the start up thing going?	15:21
RST38h	lcuk: Mighty and powerful, with windowed console output, unified device API etc	15:21
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RST38h	lcuk: And even wrote about 30% of it before the tape wore out and took all my work away	15:22
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RST38h	lcuk: About 10 years later, the topic came up in a conversation with a good friend, we talked about it in details, what we would have in a modern os, then pulled out a laptop, and started writing	15:23
RST38h	lcuk: In about 3 hours one of us suddenly asked "And why the fuck are we doing it?"	15:23
RST38h	lcuk: And we stopped. The idea still comes up every now and then, but one of us always reiterates the question and, mercifully, kills it dead until the next time.	15:24
alterego	Did you base your OS on a pre-existing kernel?	15:25
RST38h	alterego: There weren't such a sthing as a pre existing kernel at that time	15:25
alterego	Oh	15:25
RST38h	It was 1989-1990, in USSR	15:25
alterego	I didn't realise it was in the dark ages :P	15:25
derf	So you did this in the 60's?	15:26
derf	BSD and Mach have been around for a long time.	15:26
johnx	Stskeeps, packaged. wanna see if I can get a first-run-wizard working	15:26
RST38h	derf: not on an 8080-based system with 32kB RAM, TV for output and a walkman for input	15:26
RST38h	But it is all pretty much beside the point.	15:26
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lcuk	RST38h, i dont want an OS. i want fast fluid applications on my tablet	15:28
johnx	my only advice is: follow the Unix way and everything else will work itself out	15:29
lcuk	agreed entirely	15:29
johnx	I think splitting it into separate parts will help a lot with popularity	15:30
johnx	I also think I'm going to go to the store and buy a box of cookies	15:30
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johnx	back in 6min	15:30
lcuk	heh	15:30
Zakkm	quick	15:30
johnx	er...maybe more like 10min actually. doctor said no running for a while :(	15:31
AStorm	hehe	15:32
AStorm	Unix way is unfortunately ignored a lot nowadays	15:32
AStorm	as in many small tools	15:32
lcuk	johnx, for when you get back : how can i do as quick and simple as i want when the OS wont let me?	15:33
RST38h	lcuk: you only have ONE application. you have to figure out for yourself what this application is.	15:33
RST38h	lcuk: And stop there.	15:34
* RST38h obviously check out iTT :)		15:34
RST38h	checked	15:34
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lcuk	RST38h, i have ideas which span many applications and simply lack the knowledge to push the improvements into the core.	15:36
lcuk	and from a purely personal perspective, I've got what I need already : a base to write anything I want from	15:38
* alterego wonders if he'll ever be finished tweaking the packaging system.		15:40
johnx	lcuk, ah, and here's where the unix philosophy makes you and RST38h happy: make a small tool that does one thing well	15:40
johnx	if you need more than one thing, make another tool	15:40
alterego	Actually that's not lcuk's philosophy :P	15:41
lcuk	yeah johnx, ive got hundreds os stand alone projects here, some more developer than others	15:41
johnx	alterego, not yet :)	15:41
lcuk	hundreds of ^	15:41
RST38h	lcuk: Choose ONE.	15:41
lcuk	i hate having everything in one bundle	15:41
alterego	liqbase is one application :P	15:41
RST38h	And finish it.	15:41
lcuk	it makes it a nightmare to think about	15:41
lcuk	RST38h, i fuffing cant without a library	15:41
lcuk	if i had a library i could make a tiny liqsketch and finish it	15:42
johnx	and hence the proliferation of libraries in the Unix world :)	15:42
lcuk	until then everything is under the same umbrella and gets improved together	15:42
johnx	and the proliferation of apps that include their own mail client in the windows world	15:42
lcuk	same with linux isnt it	15:42
RST38h	lcuk: You already have the code, make it a library.	15:43
RST38h	What exactly is the problem?	15:43
lcuk	if i had been happy with using gtk and cairo and could get kinetic i wouldv, and ive hated every single step ive taken from the day i started on the YUV implementation, but the simple fact is the path is there	15:43
johnx	lcuk, it is apparent in some apps. which ones are you thinking of? open office?	15:44
lcuk	how many webbrowsers are we at currently?	15:44
AStorm	lcuk, heck, I had to change my nifty fast update to a sligtly slower one	15:45
gladiac	btw. is ther are libv4l available for maemo?	15:45
AStorm	because stupid gtkImage doesn't do image replacement properly	15:45
johnx	lcuk, for the most part though: they're just web browsers. sure linux has more than one of the same tool, but it's not a tool out to solve all your problems	15:45
RST38h	lcuk: Then just live without gtk and cairo	15:45
AStorm	johnx, not browsers	15:45
RST38h	lcuk: Use what you have.	15:46
AStorm	they actually embed IE or OE	15:46
lcuk	AStorm, but the book reader wouldnt work	15:46
johnx	AStorm, nature of the beast I've decided	15:46
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* RST38h is exhausted by fighting ALSA. Why is all this grotesque non-working shit there?		15:46
lcuk	if mplayer used only the normal methods it wouldnt play movies	15:46
AStorm	nah	15:47
RST38h	Why can't these people just give me a ring buffer?	15:47
AStorm	it could	15:47
AStorm	ring? no, it's a linear fb	15:47
RST38h	I do not want their underrun handling. I do not want their reporting functions, their write functions, etc.	15:47
AStorm	you can't have a ring buffer, only a linear one	15:47
RST38h	AStorm: ALSA has nothing to do with fb	15:47
AStorm	ah that	15:47
RST38h	AStorm: it is a freaking audio API	15:48
AStorm	DirectX uses ring buffrs	15:48
AStorm	it sucks :P	15:48
AStorm	you ndon't want an unknown size buffer	15:48
AStorm	and callback api is fine	15:48
AStorm	(a'la jack)	15:48
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johnx	lcuk, it's not about using the normal methods or not. I'm not talking about dropping YUV rendering or even using 3rd party libs. All I mean is what you're already planning on: factor out libliqbase and make liqsketch, liqreader, etc separate apps	15:49
RST38h	"Comparing to OSS API, ALSA API has inteligent ring buffer management for the mmaped access. Application must start snd_pcm_mmap_begin() to obtain the location where to store / get samples to / from and when work is finished with given sample region, snd_pcm_mmap_commit() must be called to move sample pointers in the ring buffer. "	15:49
lcuk	johnx, yes that is the roadmap 100%	15:49
AStorm	RST38h, what they don't tell is that most cards can't do mmap access	15:49
RST38h	Fucking idiots, why do I even need this "location" if it has no relation to the actual ring buffer?	15:49
AStorm	and dmix 100% can't	15:49
AStorm	so ignore it	15:50
RST38h	AStorm: They are not doing real direct access	15:50
RST38h	AStorm: It is not really mmap access, it is some temp buffer they have got inside alsa	15:50
AStorm	that's why you have to write some blocks	15:50
AStorm	and commit	15:50
AStorm	then alse cuts it to blocks and sends to soundcard	15:51
RST38h	I do not have a sound card. That is the funniest thing.	15:52
AStorm	one bonus is that you don't theoretically have to care about block size	15:52
RST38h	A have a normal DMAble ring buffer in sdram	15:52
AStorm	whatever	15:52
AStorm	still have to commit	15:52
lcuk	RST38h, back when i started, the "linux way" made it very complex to build things due to the amount of knowledge required. i have been happily tucked away inside VB for years now insulated from the command line and with a very quick simple way to create a new project. the closest to that i could get with liqbase was to just add another standalone module to liqbase and add it to the menu with liqXXXXX_run(); calls	15:52
AStorm	part of api	15:52
AStorm	commit every some bytes and you'll be fine	15:52
RST38h	AStorm: I am not even using mmap api because it is useless	15:53
AStorm	pointless, not useless	15:53
AStorm	:)	15:53
RST38h	AStorm: The problem is that even normal (non-mmap) API clicks and hangs after a few restarts	15:53
AStorm	it can be used	15:53
AStorm	hmm?	15:53
AStorm	weird	15:53
RST38h	And nobody gives me access to the hardware	15:53
RST38h	All I have got is a buggy ALSA implementation	15:53
AStorm	what is the device you're using?	15:54
johnx	wait, are we talking about alsa on the tablet?	15:54
AStorm	tablet has fine alsa support	15:54
AStorm	:P	15:54
alterego	gstreamre ftw!	15:54
AStorm	working too	15:54
RST38h	johnx: No. STMP37xx chip.	15:54
AStorm	mhm	15:54
johnx	AStorm, that's a nice dream	15:54
AStorm	a DAC	15:54
AStorm	johnx, no, really	15:54
AStorm	in new linux-omap	15:54
johnx	AStorm, aaah, I meant in 2.6.21	15:55
AStorm	2.6.24-omap had working alsa last I tried	15:55
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alterego	AStorm: he's not saying it doesn't work. He's saying he doesn't like it's API	15:55
RST38h	"working ALSA" is a vague description	15:55
AStorm	meh, api's ok	15:55
johnx	AStorm, I thought you meant Nokia's alsa->DSP was "fine"	15:55
RST38h	ALSA API has dozens of functions	15:55
AStorm	yes, and the kitchen sink	15:56
AStorm	and many advanced features have to be tested for	15:56
alterego	RST38h: if you're that unhappy with ALSA, write something better ..	15:56
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derf	Yes, clearly Linux needs another audio API.	15:56
AStorm	at least ALSA is not lowest common denominator api	15:57
AStorm	you can use all features of a card with it	15:57
RST38h	alterego: I have no choice.	15:57
RST38h	ALSA is what I have got	15:57
AStorm	unlike OSS 4	15:57
RST38h	derf: Linux needs a massacre or two	15:57
AStorm	or certain other high level apis like PortAudio	15:57
johnx	woo! it's a massacre!	15:57
RST38h	derf: With people writing "another audio APIs" first in line for execution	15:58
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AStorm	RST38h, hmm?	15:59
alterego	I must have compiled these packages a hundred times now ^_^	15:59
AStorm	yes, we need one and only API	15:59
AStorm	ALSA is fit for the task	15:59
AStorm	OSS should die :>	16:00
RST38h	AStorm: You already have one and only API - /dev/dsp	16:01
AStorm	no	16:01
AStorm	it sucks	16:01
RST38h	AStorm: If you really dislike it, use BSD's /dev/pcm or even Sun's /dev/audio.	16:01
AStorm	provides no latency info for one	16:01
RST38h	AStorm: it does	16:01
AStorm	no idea of buffering	16:01
RST38h	AStorm: orly? =)	16:01
AStorm	really	16:01
AStorm	it has to die	16:01
AStorm	you can't code any non-trivial audio app with these	16:02
RST38h	AStorm: I mean, when you tell /dev/dsp the buffer size and the number of segments, it is not buffering?	16:02
AStorm	you do, but then you don't know anything about underruns	16:02
RST38h	AStorm: add an ioctl. ONE ioctl, not ten	16:04
AStorm	ten? since when you need 10 ioctls in alsa?	16:06
AStorm	no, you don't have to implement every feature it has	16:06
AStorm	anyway	16:07
* AStorm needs a nap		16:07
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RST38h	ALSA actually has more than ten	16:12
bakarat	how exactly do the POI work in maemo mapper?	16:14
bakarat	i entered a few lists containing the speed traps for different speed limits in my country	16:14
bakarat	they seem to be loaded, but i can't "see" them?	16:14
bakarat	is there a way to show them by icon or something?	16:14
bakarat	or do you get an auditive reminder?	16:14
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bakarat	o wait, that's odd...it seems that the POI are placed wrong, they show up near adis abeba whilst they should be in western europe :p	16:17
bakarat	i used garmin csv file of the locations and "gpsbabel" to convert	16:18
bakarat	maybe it mixed up long & lat or something?	16:18
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* RST38h seems to have coerced ALSA into the ring buffer mode		16:24
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RST38h	urgh, what a messy piece of shit :( like the old OSS API having a cancer.	16:24
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ShadowJK	RST38h, yes	16:49
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ShadowJK	Sun's /dev/audio is nice	16:51
ShadowJK	and it does give you buffering and latency	16:52
ShadowJK	With alsa it's a bit of a hit and miss whether you get usable buffering info :-)	16:52
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johnx	alsa supports a wider variety of hardware devices though. I always imagined that was the reason it was more complicated	16:53
ShadowJK	nah	16:53
johnx	such as A2DP headphones	16:53
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RST38h	Highly localized aurora borealis: http://victorprofessor.livejournal.com/83680.html	16:54
RST38h	(in case you wonder, no, not real aurora)	16:54
RST38h	johnx: it's not the reason	16:54
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RST38h	johnx: The reason is that it is designed by people with asperger's syndrome	16:55
johnx	so out of curiosity: how would one sanely have a2dp headphones provide a /dev/audio interface?	16:55
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johnx	RST38h, might want to watch comments like that...	16:55
RST38h	johnx: normally - you open it, write to it, the driver manages sending what you write to the headphones, with compression	16:56
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RST38h	johnx: Well, it was just a statement of a fact	16:56
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johnx	RST38h, some people might take that the wrong way	16:56
RST38h	johnx: Let'em	16:57
johnx	alright: fuck you :)	16:57
RST38h	Hehe =)	16:57
ShadowJK	The best way of getting half-working alsa support into your app, is to become big enough that an alsa developer comes along and corrects your code	16:57
ShadowJK	Because you're unlikely to figure it out by staring at the docs	16:57
RST38h	johnx: But in this particular case you have obviously got someone REALLY concentrating on the API design to the point where all other things (including common sense) are ignored	16:58
Stskeeps	heh, know the feeling	16:58
johnx	RST38h, trying to justify what you just said, just makes you look more ignorant	16:58
johnx	RST38h, and as for a2dp: you want sound to go into the kernel interface, get passed up into userspace, have the sbc encoding run on it, then back into the kernel for transmission?	17:00
RST38h	johnx: I want sound processing stay in the kernel	17:01
Stskeeps	johnx: there's some merit to what he says though.. with aspergers, it is -very- easy to drown in the details (i have it myself so), and the end results can be horrendous if not balanced with other developers/end users :P	17:01
RST38h	johnx: And no, I am not "justifying" what I said, I am explaining the basis for my assumption	17:01
ShadowJK	you make it support only sample format A2DP :-)	17:02
ShadowJK	the /dev/audio device for bluetooth steroe headset	17:02
johnx	ShadowJK, and then every app that wants to play sound includes an sbc encoder?	17:03
RST38h	Also an idea - this way you write sbc encoded data into the device	17:03
johnx	wow...what a killer idea. I get to wait for everyone to include sbc encoding into their apps before I can use my headphones?	17:03
RST38h	johnx: you can run an sbc encoder process that reads data from a socket	17:03
RST38h	call it /dev/headset or something	17:04
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johnx	and could I expect to ln -s /dev/headset /dev/audio and have things just work?	17:05
ShadowJK	alsa is great in pretending to be transparent, but unfortunately it's not :(	17:05
RST38h	not if you want devices for both plain audio and sbc audio	17:06
RST38h	ShadowJK: 2/3 of it does not appear to work at all, transparently or not	17:06
ShadowJK	I still have to access the hw directly in alsa and not through 'default' pcm, to get accurate usable timing info	17:06
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johnx	pretend I'm a user: I want my headphones to work without rewriting every sound producing app I use to support my headphones	17:07
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RST38h	johnx: if you are a user, you do not really care whether it happens through ALSA or not.	17:07
ShadowJK	Atleast they fixed the thing where they did fork() in libalsa and you ended up with random processes all over, which then blocked all sound when they eventually fell over	17:07
RST38h	So, no, this example won't fly	17:07
ShadowJK	From a user point of view, wrangling alsa to do anything is a pain. And if the distro sets it up for you, then it doesn't matter what sits behind it :-)	17:08
RST38h	ShadowJK: Don't scare me like that - random kernel hangups I have got today are really sufficient =)	17:08
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johnx	RST38h, you really think people will be rewriting all their audio player code every time a strange and different piece of sound hardware appears	17:09
johnx	that strikes me as the wrong level to do that at	17:09
RST38h	johnx: I really think there is a way to connect your a2dp headset using standard, lightweight /dev/dsp API, without resorting to something like ALSA	17:09
RST38h	That is all I think	17:09
RST38h	As to ALSA, I haven't seen many developers using ALSA APIs directly	17:10
ShadowJK	Well that's effectively what you have to do today anyway, the alsa API is too complex for programmers to write "proper" code for, so whenever something new comes along in ALSA, random apps break and the alsa people say the apps' alsa code is "broken", then you have to wait for someone to fix that	17:10
alterego	gstreamer ftw!	17:10
johnx	RST38h, I'll give you that. even the pulseaudio guys seem to be steering people in that direction	17:10
ShadowJK	Like when fedora introduced pulseaudio, random things breaking here and there	17:10
johnx	s/pulseaudio/alsa/	17:11
infobot	johnx meant: RST38h, I'll give you that. even the alsa guys seem to be steering people in that direction	17:11
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ShadowJK	going through pulseaudio straight is tolerable, going alsa->pulseaudio and the timing and buffer reporting granularity goes up a few magnitudes... Which makes VoIP kinda funny	17:11
* ShadowJK remembers skype didn't work very well		17:12
ShadowJK	Of course, skype's alsa code was "broken", they said	17:12
ShadowJK	When the next great thing comes along and embeds itself in the middle of the path to the soundboard, I bet there will be yet more "broken" apps..	17:13
RST38h	yep	17:14
RST38h	That is why all these alsas, pulseaudios, esounds, etc etc should just die	17:14
johnx	so we can move onto the next great thing?	17:14
johnx	yet another sound API embedded into the kernel?	17:15
RST38h	Take /dev/audio (or dev/pcm or core dev/dsp functionality), add a few critical ioctls and leave it be	17:15
RST38h	no, just reuse the original Ap	17:15
RST38h	api	17:15
ShadowJK	besides, OSS has a ALSA compatibility layer now, imagine that :-)	17:15
ShadowJK	(run ALSA apps on OSS)	17:15
ShadowJK	The OSS guy did it because people said it was impossible	17:16
ShadowJK	lol	17:16
johnx	so from my example: will OSS have A2DP drivers?	17:16
alterego	Heh	17:16
Stslaptop	ShadowJK: he sounds about as insane as me..	17:16
alterego	If you keep using broken things then they'll never get replaced.	17:16
ShadowJK	there are no unbroken things	17:16
RST38h	yep	17:16
RST38h	btw, http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/01/nielsen2.jpg	17:17
RST38h	of course ythe most amusing is position #7 ;)	17:17
alterego	skype-installer and gizmo-installer really annoy me.	17:17
alterego	Why do they have to make the core meta package depend on them. I don't want them cluttering up my app menu >:(	17:18
johnx	that's a pretty big "other" category O_o	17:18
johnx	alterego, then install skype and remove it :)	17:18
ShadowJK	johnx, it's not surprising really	17:18
ShadowJK	People have tons of functioning SNES boxen left :-)	17:18
alterego	I just deleted the .desktop files.	17:18
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johnx	not surprising, just ... maybe they could have expanded the list to 10 so we could see some of them	17:19
ShadowJK	yeah	17:19
qwerty12_N800	alterego, I like to dpkg -L them and delete the files manually. Being from the uk, you won't have noticed they annoying rhapsody-installer package too...	17:19
alterego	:)	17:19
qwerty12_N800	s/they/the	17:19
johnx	heh...had a friend who worked for Real for a while :)	17:19
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Stslaptop	johnx: so what was packaged btw?	17:20
* RST38h remembers installing Real on a Windows PC		17:21
johnx	Stslaptop, that startx init script + a hook to run a first boot wizard if /etc/default/autologin isn't found	17:21
RST38h	The thing is almost like a virus or a trojan, judging from the amount of stuff it dumps into C:\Windows and C:\Windows\System32	17:21
* johnx looks for a zenity maemo source package ...		17:22
johnx	extras I suppose...	17:22
qwerty12_N800	there isn't one in extras(-devel)	17:22
RST38h	a moment	17:23
RST38h	I do not think they have released anything officially yet	17:23
RST38h	Ok, courtesy of Bundyo: http://www.bundyo.org/maemo/zenity/	17:24
johnx	ah, win :D	17:24
johnx	thanks	17:24
thopiekar	could some one please help me with a little python - "data read and write" problem?	17:25
thopiekar	http://pastebin.com/d7328a45a	17:25
thopiekar	I get this output on eclipse (plus pyDev):	17:25
thopiekar	Traceback (most recent call last):	17:25
thopiekar	File "/home/thopiekar/Projekte/ganymede/esdk/trunk/esdk-inst/inst-esdk.py", line 698, in <module>	17:25
thopiekar	init() # lade das Programm	17:25
thopiekar	File "/home/thopiekar/Projekte/ganymede/esdk/trunk/esdk-inst/inst-esdk.py", line 691, in init	17:25
thopiekar	loadcfg()	17:25
thopiekar	File "/home/thopiekar/Projekte/ganymede/esdk/trunk/esdk-inst/inst-esdk.py", line 77, in loadcfg	17:25
thopiekar	cfile.writelines(cfgdb)	17:25
thopiekar	IOError: [Errno 9] Bad file descriptor	17:25
qwerty12_N800	PASTEBIN	17:25
johnx	qwerty12_N800, it looks like pastebin...but I think this is actually IRC	17:25
Stslaptop	johnx: sure it needs to be maemoized?	17:25
andre___	hmm. got problems building fremantle alpha (Runtime Environment only) in scratchbox: http://www.pastebin.cz/13777 - anybody having an idea how to get better debug output?	17:26
qwerty12_N800	johnx, call it a hint :)	17:26
johnx	Stslaptop, it wants to pull in libgnomecanvas and can't	17:26
thopiekar	sry.. you are right i had to pastbin the out put too ;)	17:26
Stslaptop	johnx: ah.	17:26
johnx	I assume we'll be using it for other stuff	17:26
Stslaptop	it wont get gnomecanvas why?	17:27
johnx	let me pull on the dependency tree. one sec	17:27
johnx	zenity -> libgnomecanvas2-0 -> libgail18 -> libgtk2.0-0 = 2.14.5-1ubuntu2	17:28
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Stslaptop	lovely	17:28
Stslaptop	there's a gail in maemo	17:28
johnx	no idea why it need that exact libgtk	17:28
johnx	does it have critical maemo-only stuff?	17:28
Stslaptop	not sure	17:29
* johnx looks		17:29
Stslaptop	https://stage.maemo.org/viewcvs.cgi/projects/haf/trunk/gail/debian/changelog?revision=15365&root=maemo&view=markup	17:30
johnx	1.5 years of Nokia patches	17:30
* johnx kries		17:30
alterego	Woo, SDK+ RC2! :)	17:30
alterego	I might try and install that later.	17:31
Stslaptop	johnx: always possible to rebuild libgail towards libgtk	17:32
johnx	also, nokia is on gail 1.18 and ubuntu on 2.14	17:33
johnx	so I'll rebuild Ubuntu's gail and see if I'm very lucky	17:33
Stslaptop	nod	17:34
Stslaptop	we need to do something about libgconf2-6 too	17:34
johnx	it is an interesting thing though: Nokia's gail drops support for gnome canvas, Ubuntu's doesn't. if I pull it into the first-boot-wizard I'll probably get a ton of gnome stuff	17:34
Stslaptop	yeah but you said zenity -> libgnomecanvas -> libgail	17:35
johnx	well, ubuntu's zenity.	17:35
johnx	I imagine Maemo's zenity doesn't need gnomecanvas	17:35
Stskeeps	true	17:35
johnx	ah, though the latest ubuntu libgail doesn't pull in gnomecanvas	17:36
johnx	ok, maybe not too bad. I'll see	17:36
Stslaptop	sometimes you don't blame nokia for wanting a seperate distro..	17:37
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johnx	yeah	17:37
Stslaptop	where they can cut dependancies left and right	17:37
b-man	hello, jhonx	17:37
Stslaptop	b-man: status?	17:37
johnx	hey b-man. any luck with X?	17:37
johnx	though SDHC cards are cheap, and as long as the added deps don't take up too much more RAM I'm inclined to be closer to the desktop at the cost of disk space	17:38
Stslaptop	mm	17:39
johnx	and having said that no one will ever hire me for embedded work ever again :>	17:39
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b-man	no luck with x yet. stslaptop; i'm just about done with the 'slimed down' installer, i just need to make a deb.	17:39
Stslaptop	alright	17:39
johnx	would it make sense to upload a quick auto-startx that depends on the existence of /etc/default/autologin ?	17:40
Stslaptop	b-man: any X problems can probably be directly attributed to not using fb_update_mode auto	17:40
Stslaptop	depends on what /etc/default/autologin means?	17:40
b-man	oh, ok thanks!	17:41
johnx	cat /etc/default/autologin: PREFERED_USER = johnx	17:41
b-man	heh	17:41
Stslaptop	johnx: fair enough, if it's a first-run thing	17:41
johnx	I mean, that's the stand-in for "first-run" so other people aren't waiting on a first-run wizard	17:42
johnx	we can keep doing what we're doing but move startx into init instead of rc.local	17:42
Stskeeps	johnx: yeah, sounds good	17:42
Stskeeps	(your suggestion at first)	17:42
johnx	yeah, developed delusions of grandeur after that o_o;	17:43
Stskeeps	mm	17:44
* Stskeeps is trying to simulate cow collars. yay :P		17:44
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johnx	I misread that at first	17:44
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b-man	it looks like i'm missing /etc/dfault/autologin.	17:45
johnx	then you need the package I'm about to release :)	17:46
b-man	oh, you could have told me that :)	17:47
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johnx	I did :P	17:47
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thopiekar	could someone please tell me how to fix that?	17:48
thopiekar	the code (http://pastebin.com/d7328a45a) and it's output (http://pastebin.com/d1bcb61a6)..	17:48
b-man	stupid me, this is why i like to have a little coffie before i join irc in the morning. ;p	17:48
johnx	no worries :)	17:49
johnx	should that be created by the installer or should I just assume it will be 'user' for now?	17:49
Stskeeps	well we dont really have an installer	17:50
johnx	s/installer/thing that makes the images	17:50
Stskeeps	it's an imager, it debootstraps and unpacks files, and adds in very few things (xorg, fstab)	17:50
Stskeeps	+conf	17:50
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johnx	sigh...if it doesn't exist I'll just set PREFERED_USER=user	17:51
* alterego catches up on the Christmas lectures.		17:51
Stskeeps	i think you should run the first-run thing if /etc/default/autologin doesn't exist, after wizard is done, it writes to /etc/default/autologin	17:51
Stskeeps	or something	17:51
johnx	right, which will happen when I wrangle zenity and write first-run-wizard...but for right now	17:52
Stskeeps	a	17:52
Stskeeps	h	17:52
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Stskeeps	user, i guess :P if its useradd'd	17:52
johnx	heh. I'll just add it to the top of the script for now. god forgive me	17:52
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Stslaptop	wb qwerty12	17:55
qwerty12	thanks Stslaptop	17:55
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b-man	Stslaptop; how can i make fb_update_mode_auto run automaticly at startup?, from something other than an init script?	18:01
johnx	rc.local	18:01
b-man	k	18:02
Stslaptop	b-man: fb_update_mode auto, not _auto :P	18:02
RST38h	http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/2009/01/custom_1230906681244_asus-android-screen.png	18:02
RST38h	kinda pointless but still...	18:03
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Stslaptop	dalvik under something else or?	18:04
* johnx predicts a wave of Chinese PMP/PDA's running Android		18:04
RST38h	johnx: already happening as we speak	18:05
johnx	Stslaptop, just android on x86	18:05
RST38h	in fact, if it dethrones WinMobile, I will be happy	18:05
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Stslaptop	RST38h: i'm with you on that one	18:05
johnx	won't be able to write emulators for it though :)	18:05
RST38h	who cares	18:06
RST38h	as long as WinMobile dies...	18:06
johnx	:D since you know, you sell emulators...	18:06
RST38h	It is one segment I am willing to sacrifice, especially considering that I still can't make myself port latest versions to WinMobile	18:07
johnx	well, then. good riddance indeed	18:08
johnx	and google will get a ton of young Chinese programmers working on android as their first platform	18:08
johnx	so any bets on when android starts showing up on cheap/free w/ contract phones in the US/EU? :)	18:10
RST38h	Once Motorola releases its first handsets	18:10
RST38h	Unless Motorola does not live to that date financially	18:10
johnx	was about to post "ahaha. as long as they're around do that"	18:10
qwerty12	When will a real phone company do that rather	18:11
qwerty12	?	18:11
RST38h	Well, it is not like they have got other chances beside Android	18:11
RST38h	qwerty: #define real phone company	18:11
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qwerty12	RST38h, Nokia, Sony Ericsson etc. I'm not a fan of Motorola phones.	18:12
Stslaptop	qwerty12: there was an android comment from SE	18:12
alterego	The G1 is ugly ..	18:12
qwerty12	Stslaptop, cool :)	18:12
johnx	Nokia, never. SE, maybe	18:12
* qwerty12 googles :)		18:12
qwerty12	SE should just let UIQ burn though	18:13
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Stslaptop	i wouldn't mind my SE phone if it didn't continually die when in my pocket	18:13
RST38h	qwerty: Well, Motorola is pretty real phone company (or has been)	18:14
alterego	I'd like to know when Nokia are opening up Symbian, I've been waiting ages :)	18:14
RST38h	HTC produces phones but it is hardly a real phone company	18:14
Stslaptop	but i knew that i had spent too much time with my tablet when i tried to use touch functionality on my SE phone..	18:14
RST38h	alterego: They have opened it already	18:14
alterego	Really?	18:14
glass	qwerty12: uiq is just burned already	18:14
alterego	When?	18:14
RST38h	alterego: Annual membership fee to get open Symbian is $1500.	18:15
qwerty12	RST38h, yeah, my words are more opinionated (I think motorola suck dick and their phones too)	18:15
RST38h	:)	18:15
alterego	O_O	18:15
glass	qwerty12: afaik they're keeping a small symbian lab though(se)	18:15
qwerty12	glass, whee!	18:15
alterego	Damnit, I thought it was free.	18:15
RST38h	That is Symbian's idea of "open"	18:15
* johnx imagines SE sucking their phones		18:15
alterego	Nokias ..	18:15
glass	well symbians idea of open is that manufacturers can take it	18:15
RST38h	glass: What for? I thought they dumped and forgot?	18:15
glass	RST38h: for future phones for the unified symbian platform	18:15
RST38h	johnx: Japanese or Nordic part of SE? =)	18:16
glass	not really trade secrets if you read trade mags/sites/rumours	18:16
RST38h	glass: But they do not have any plans for these?	18:16
orifice_work1	since getting an n810 all my lcd screens have seen an increase in finger prints and poke marks	18:16
glass	RST38h: real plans? dunno if they know themselfs even	18:16
johnx	RST38h, maybe at a high-profile international meeting?	18:16
johnx	orifice_work1, yeah, I poked my desktop monitor the other day	18:17
glass	samsungs s60's have been getting more available globally no though	18:17
RST38h	johnx: Actually, sucking an SE phone from both ends ...mmm...	18:17
glass	no=now	18:17
orifice_work1	what would a convenient key be to map to TAB on the n810 keyboard ? I'm thinking right shift. I never remember that it's actually there anyways.	18:17
RST38h	glass: Samsung will run anything on their phones, if they see profit	18:17
glass	RST38h: thats samsungs problem actually	18:17
glass	RST38h: and motors.. spoon in every soup	18:17
RST38h	glass: They are very cynical like all asian guys	18:17
*** orifice_work1 is now known as orifice-work		18:17
johnx	a low-end, durable as hell samsung android phone would be kind of nice	18:18
glass	not motrs, motos	18:18
RST38h	glass: SE - I do not think so	18:18
glass	RST38h: se's been in trouble for years	18:18
RST38h	johnx: ah just wait and you will get your wish	18:18
glass	RST38h: they lagged so much with uiq3	18:18
RST38h	glass: Well, that is of their own making	18:18
lcuk	orifice-work, http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2007/12/31/adding-pipe-and-tab-to-the-n810-keyboard/	18:18
glass	RST38h: and xperia seems just a branded oem wm phone	18:18
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RST38h	glass: They did not fix bugs, did not market, and generally did not care	18:18
glass	RST38h: yeah, it's their fault	18:18
johnx	really, people can say that samsung phones aren't cool, but they work as phones	18:19
orifice-work	lcuk: cool thanks	18:19
lcuk	read the comments as well	18:19
glass	RST38h: i'm not defending them :) just stating the facts	18:19
RST38h	johnx: correct	18:19
orifice-work	samsung's hardware design has come a long way in the last 3 years	18:19
RST38h	glass: Well, it is kinda known fact. And it is way more obvious if you look at Sony's media players	18:19
RST38h	glass: I won't even mention the PS3 :)	18:19
glass	RST38h: se has seemed pretty seperated from just s	18:20
johnx	been using samsung phones from 2001ish to 2006ish. left very little to be desired hardware-wise for a dumbphone	18:20
RST38h	glass: But the problem exists across all Sony subdivisions	18:20
glass	samsung seems to have many teams doing sw for their phones	18:20
johnx	sony needs to talk to itself	18:20
glass	adds up costs	18:20
RST38h	glass: Same with Motorola, until recently	18:21
glass	RST38h: yeah	18:21
orifice-work	glass: I thought that too. It seems every new device has a new sw UI team	18:21
glass	RST38h: when looking at profit numbers, it seems like a shitty tactic	18:21
RST38h	johnx: just fire all the old fat guys in suits	18:21
RST38h	johnx: starting with legal department.	18:21
glass	orifice-work: and they used to just bolt on a java vm that they didn't customize at all, had different t9 and all weird shit(samsung)	18:21
RST38h	glass: I am sure if it were shitty tactic, Samsung would not do it	18:22
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johnx	RST38h, I think it's partially endemic to their massive size, current structure and also to a certain extent on Japanese business culture	18:22
glass	RST38h: i've been hearing that reasoning for a lot of shitty things lately :D	18:22
RST38h	glass: The real reason may be that hiring a lot of Chinese/Koreans is cheap and gives you government subsidies	18:22
glass	RST38h: but it's bad profit on bottom line	18:22
glass	RST38h: on q revenues and profit %	18:22
RST38h	glass: is there a document to showcase that?	18:23
glass	RST38h: nokia has(at least untill recenty) the best profit % per phone	18:23
RST38h	because their per phone prices are inflated.	18:23
glass	RST38h: just read the next quarterly briefs etc	18:23
RST38h	johnx: true	18:23
glass	so what, they make profit, making profi means they survive	18:23
* RST38h goes to check out the next movie on tv		18:24
RST38h	Mr Bean's vacation. Mhm.	18:25
glass	disaster movie	18:25
Stslaptop	oh boy. bollywood is going to remake 'back to the future'	18:25
Stslaptop	this'll be interesting.	18:25
glass	Stslaptop: haha whaaaat	18:25
RST38h	Sts: Funny, I have just glimpsed Bollywood remake of Superman on TV	18:25
RST38h	Sts: And yes, it was as bad as it sounds	18:26
Stslaptop	glass: http://www.worstpreviews.com/headline.php?id=11462&count=0	18:26
johnx	bollywood BTTF? O_o Can't decide whether to be excited or filled with dread	18:26
Stslaptop	johnx: what bttf really needs is a lot of singing and dancing, obviously.	18:26
johnx	that's what I've always said!	18:27
RST38h	Speaking of Bollywood: http://funbest.ru/funfoto/1241-indijjskie-kinoafishi-ukhkhkh-zhgut-34.html	18:27
RST38h	(try not to eat while opening this link)	18:27
johnx	right when McFly is peeping in that window, that's when we need an epic musical number! or maybe during the skateboard chase seen	18:27
Stslaptop	hehe	18:28
Stslaptop	RST38h: hindi 3-d is hillarious	18:28
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lcuk	johnx, back to the future was already a musical	18:28
lcuk	"power of love" :D	18:28
RST38h	Sts: I like Jaani Dushman better, the one with the blue-skinned guy	18:28
sp3000	benny lava!	18:28
Stslaptop	donnie darko done by bollywood could be interesting	18:29
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Stslaptop	couldn't possibly get less bizarre ;)	18:29
RST38h	Sts: Why not go for StarWars?	18:29
johnx	ok, now that would actually be kind of neat	18:29
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* Stslaptop is personally waiting for 'the time travellers wife' to come out. brilliant book.		18:31
lcuk	RST38h, george lucas stops it	18:32
johnx	yeah, he's the only one who's allowed to mame star wars	18:32
Stskeeps	except for those chinese subtitle translators..	18:33
RST38h	lcuk: The idea is to make Lucas kill himself when he sees the trailer	18:33
RST38h	lcuk: Or have a fit.	18:33
johnx	RST38h, if he didn't kill himself after seeing his own new version of a new hope I don't think bollywood-ization will be enough	18:33
lcuk	kinda like how a little bit of my childhood died when i saw this http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fb50GMmY5nk	18:34
Stskeeps	johnx: off topic, so what will you have the first run wizard ask? username? real name?	18:34
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lcuk	(though its kinda cool)	18:34
johnx	Stskeeps, yeah, maybe tablet name?	18:34
Stskeeps	true, that too	18:34
johnx	ideas welcome :)	18:34
b-man	what desktop env you are using? ;)	18:35
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johnx	b-man, on my desktop? or on my tablet?	18:35
Stslaptop	b-man: think that'll be hildon at first with option to change environments if you're not in-flash	18:35
Stslaptop	(as in, cloned mode)	18:35
Stslaptop	or installed to SD	18:35
lcuk	are we having real users?	18:35
johnx	lcuk, had those once. they make a pill now.	18:35
Stslaptop	if anything, we have Meiz ;)	18:35
b-man	johnx; that was a suggestion not a question. ;)	18:36
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johnx	b-man, ah, we'll probably leave alternative desktops up to users to setup...though I will keep it in mind for later	18:36
Stslaptop	johnx: option when we have an in-flash version.. asking if you'd like to clone to SD or something	18:37
johnx	in first-boot-wizard?	18:37
johnx	or as a nice little separate app?	18:37
Stslaptop	true, it might be a bit early	18:37
Stslaptop	yeah, seperate app makes more sense	18:38
lcuk	Stskeeps, with any of these questions, think about your gran opening the box	18:38
Stslaptop	yeah yeah :P	18:38
lcuk	(or other relative as reqd)	18:38
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Stslaptop	lcuk: will probably be something along the lines (in a later version) that real name gets turned into username .. and tablet device name	18:38
lcuk	i simply ask for a name, it will help personalize things for them	18:39
johnx	ah: location!	18:39
Stslaptop	yeah, that too	18:39
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* johnx takes notes		18:39
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johnx	should be easy to turn real name into user name. toLower($firstname)	18:40
Tiger_056	join #/kde	18:40
lcuk	johnx, do not underestimate your users	18:41
lcuk	they do strange crap like put fullstops and quotes and crap	18:41
johnx	ah, little bobby;DROP TABLES	18:41
lcuk	and different generations put things differently	18:41
johnx	heh...if (badname) ; then username = user; fi	18:42
lcuk	just have two fields, short name and fullname, as they type their shortname it should fill up proper name (unless its been filled in already)	18:43
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RST38h	Sts: First time wizard should obviously ask "Are you an idiot?"	18:43
qwerty12	johnx, badname = motherfucker? :)	18:43
johnx	lcuk, if I can't do it with zenity I'm not doing it :P	18:43
lcuk	with a default option of Yes and no way to change it?	18:43
RST38h	Sts: And choose the appropriate path depending on the answer	18:43
johnx	qwerty12, badname = bobby;rm -rf /	18:43
qwerty12	hehe	18:44
lcuk	johnx, i put a single name box into liqbase expecting a quick nickname, i learnt a lot from that experience ;)	18:44
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* qwerty12 can't believe how shit slow the builder is at building sstrip >.<		18:45
johnx	lcuk, this can be ripped out later. if people complain. but I don't want to engage in painting the planks I'm going to use to build the barn at this point :P	18:45
lcuk	name: "../dev/null"	18:46
lcuk	heh, sounds exactly like me :P	18:46
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johnx	actually the killer would be, Name: Tablet User,,,":/root:/bin/su	18:47
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johnx	committed!	18:54
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lcuk	johnx, they finally arrived to take you away?	18:56
johnx	they should. wonder what's taking so long	18:56
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b-man	i think i've partly solved the xorg problem, i didn't include "X &" and "export DISPLAY=:0" in rc.local.	19:00
RST38h	abundance of other patients, no doubt =)	19:00
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johnx	b-man, if you're still using gdm it starts X for you	19:02
b-man	ok	19:03
johnx	b-man, you removed gdm-conf?	19:03
b-man	no, i haven't yet...	19:03
johnx	well. that's your problem	19:04
johnx	I can say without much doubt	19:04
johnx	or at very least one the problems	19:04
b-man	but i need a way for my touch screen to work in gnome, that's partly why.	19:05
johnx	you need xserver-xorg-input-tslib	19:05
RST38h	...Volvo's upcoming crash-proof car. The company will introduce a concept car based on the S60 this month...	19:07
RST38h	See? S60 is so crash-proof that even Volvo uses it	19:07
b-man	ok, then i'll just remove that useless xserver parameter line in gdm then. - i still would like to use gdm :p	19:08
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johnx	b-man, so use it. :)	19:09
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alterego	Finally, I think I'm ready for RC2 :)	19:11
johnx	but is RC2 ready for you?	19:11
alterego	No, probably not :P	19:11
johnx	that's the spirit!	19:12
alterego	I still need to complete my hildon-desktop plugin system. It works but it's buggy as f*ck.	19:12
b-man	b-man hopes to god that ubuntu boots up properly, doesn't think ubuntu can take eny more battery poping :p	19:12
johnx	b-man, you need a usb/bt keyboard or a linux box :P	19:13
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limepi	I cannot for the life of me get a FLAC file to play on my n800 :(	19:13
johnx	did you follow a guide? are you getting an error message? what music player are you using?	19:18
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lcuk	b-man, you do know that to do irc actions you type "/me jumps up and down" instead of "*luck jumps up and down"	19:20
Mousey	*Mousey jumps up and dnow	19:21
lcuk	*lcuk makes more typos	19:21
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Mousey	*Mousey fails at internets	19:21
* johnx fails at spelling		19:21
johnx	3rd grade all over again	19:21
lcuk	blame your keyboard	19:21
Mousey	if i had had internets in 3rd grade, i'd have a real job by now	19:21
johnx	It's a good keyboard actually	19:21
limepi	johnx: I've read that mplayer can just straight up play a FLAC file	19:21
johnx	limepi, that sounds right I think	19:22
Mousey	limepi: if you have the right libs, mplayer will play anything	19:22
lcuk	limepi, it possibly can then, are you sure its a valid FLAC file though	19:22
limepi	yes, it plays on my desktop just fine	19:22
lcuk	with mplayer?	19:23
limepi	I haven't tried that	19:23
limepi	it works with mp3 playing software	19:23
lcuk	then try renaminig it to mp3 on the tablet and seeing if it works ;)	19:24
limepi	grr, won't play with VLC	19:25
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limepi	yes, it does play with mplayer on my mac, here	19:26
lcuk	try running it from mplayer on tablet with command line then and see if you can determine why its failing	19:26
limepi	I might as well just transcode the damn thing	19:27
lcuk	heh	19:27
limepi	damned if I can tell the difference, anyway	19:27
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johnx	Stskeeps, hey, I think this will actually work	19:35
johnx	need to learn how to use update-alternatives tomorrow so I can hook hildon-desktop-env up to x-session-manager	19:37
alterego	Right time for the testing face ..	19:37
alterego	~phase .. O_O	19:37
johnx	ah, go rest your face :D	19:37
johnx	'night alterego	19:38
alterego	g'night :)	19:38
johnx	ah, I misread testing as resting	19:38
johnx	means we could probably both use sleep, huh?	19:38
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b-man	HUGE_SUCSESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ubuntu boots perfectly now and all the applications work allmost perfectly, even ubuntu-desktop is pritty responsive!!! WOHOOOOO!!!!!	19:40
johnx	good deal b-man	19:41
alterego	Heh	19:42
b-man	allthough i'll have to install xkbd, since matchbox-keyboard causes the desktop to restart.	19:42
alterego	I'm gonna be reinstalling tomorrow ..	19:42
alterego	Now I've virtualized everything I want a basic desktop install to run all my VM's :)	19:42
johnx	think b-man's talking about ubuntu on the tablet though :)	19:42
b-man	oh yah!!! :D	19:43
alterego	Insane	19:43
b-man	wihooo!!!	19:43
RST38bis	proofpic?;]	19:43
b-man	it works great too!!	19:43
b-man	allthough i'm using 356 mb of swap ;)	19:44
johnx	aaah, well that would help	19:44
alterego	Heh	19:44
alterego	flash images? :)	19:44
b-man	i even have right-click!	19:44
b-man	alterego; i'll probibly make a guide when i have the time.	19:45
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alterego	:(	19:47
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alterego	Can we see a screeny then :)	19:47
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johnx	Stslaptop, pushed auto-startx to my lp bzr. if you want to submit it to the builder, go ahead but it's not much use without a tweak to hildon-desktop-env which will be tomorrow	19:48
johnx	'night for real now	19:48
b-man	shure, i'll post a ton of screenshots over at ITT	19:48
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b-man	btw, don't worry, i'll make a guide for ubuntu sometime today or tomorrow.	19:49
alterego	:)	19:49
alterego	Awesome.	19:49
alterego	How does it cope with the resolution?	19:49
b-man	really good :)	19:50
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b-man	easy to read, easy to use. :D	19:50
alterego	Cool	19:51
Stskeeps	johnx: k, i	19:53
Stskeeps	'll wait	19:53
johnx	it does nicely launch a failsafe x-terminal. only helps the n810 users though	19:54
Stskeeps	nod	19:55
lcuk	johnx, :P your turn not to sleep	19:55
b-man	hard to believe it only took me 3 days to start from an idia and progresivly evolve into a true full, bootable ubuntu install :D	19:55
lcuk	cya in a bit ;)	19:55
Stskeeps	b-man: do me a favour and note that battery life will (cos it's a desktop distribution) be limited when you do announce	19:55
b-man	i'll take note of that, thanks	19:56
Stskeeps	there's not much to do besides dsme-tools & wifi power saving (feel free to use the deblet scripts), so	19:56
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b-man	k :)	19:57
Stskeeps	and remember to use deblet bootmenu as dependancy or i'll have to slap you :P	19:58
alterego	These Christmas lectures are actually pretty good :)	19:58
b-man	hehe	19:58
alterego	Though Bill Gates appearing in the last one was a bit of a downer.	19:58
b-man	do you think that those dsme/powersave scrips might require modifications?	19:59
Stskeeps	nah, not really	19:59
b-man	do you think it's safe just to dpkg -i them?	19:59
Stskeeps	yeah, should work fine	20:00
b-man	ok b-man goes off and starts downloading packages from deblet repo :)	20:01
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alterego	Well, libhildon1-ruby1.8 has been properly tested now :)	20:09
* alterego moves onto libosso-ruby1.8		20:09
mikkov_	Can anybody add comment to https://maemo.org/downloads/product/create/OS2008/application/ that it is recommended to use only extras in .install files and that extras-devel is absolutely not recommended?	20:11
alterego	Sure, extras-devel is used for when you're testing your application package.	20:11
alterego	Once your application and the packaging is working and building correctly with the auto-builder, you promote it to extras. Users shouldn't install software from extras-devel because it's presumably extremely unstable.	20:12
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alterego	And more than likely it'll break something ..	20:13
mikkov_	and using extras-devel in .install files enables extras-devel unwillingly for unknowing users	20:13
alterego	Yes	20:15
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* Stslaptop still believes there should be extras-devel (or testing); and then encouraging garage PPAs for developers to release often		20:17
alterego	Well, I think I'm pretty happy with the new set of ruby-maemo packages.	20:17
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alterego	Dependencies seem to check out.	20:21
alterego	Seems to work in my own auto-builder setup, so I guess it'll be good in extras :)	20:21
Stslaptop	evening GAN800	20:21
GAN800	Howdy, Stslaptop. :)	20:22
* alterego contemplates dinner.		20:23
* GAN800 is eating Checkers		20:25
GAN800	andre___, woooo, bugspam! ;)	20:25
andre___	you wanted it, you get it! :)	20:26
andre___	now doing the same for gnome bugzilla....	20:26
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GAN800	Now, who wants to calculate what percentage of tz's 34 reports atually serve to do anything other than triple the bugsquad's workload? :p	20:28
andre___	heh. some are quite useful, don't say that. :)	20:28
andre___	gnome bugzilla has cute scripts to gather much more info. hope they get upstreamed later this year	20:29
andre___	http://bugzilla.gnome.org/utils/stats-2008/stat-overview.html	20:29
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sp3000	heh, dup count 1639	20:32
lcuk	andre___, that "Ryan Abel" guy is a bit of a bug spotting super foe, i hope all the bugs he notices are real ;) perhaps he should be banned :P	20:33
alterego	GAN800, is it too early for me to use the new extras categories? I've just used 'user/development' and it doesn't appear to get localised.	20:33
sp3000	I guess that's what you get when bugzilla is a crash reporter database :P	20:33
GAN800	lcuk, I know! Fuck that guy! Really. :P	20:34
andre___	lcuk, yeah, suspicious guy	20:34
GAN800	alterego, they wont be localized	20:34
* sp3000 goes load gnome # 522534, just because		20:34
andre___	522534 is ugly. can't even block it because the trace is too short	20:35
alterego	GAN800, because they're not being used right now?	20:35
GAN800	alterego, so you can push them now and suffer for a while unlocalized, or you can wait.	20:35
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alterego	I'll push them now :	20:35
GAN800	Application Manager still need	20:35
alterego	:)	20:35
GAN800	s to be updated (stupid fkb)	20:35
GAN800	andre___, we need to source some shirts.	20:37
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andre___	"I filed 100 Maemo bugs in 2008 and all I got was this lousy t-shirt"?	20:38
GAN800	Hehe	20:38
alterego	Hah	20:38
andre___	or more like this?: http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/files/2008/01/behdadstshirt.jpg	20:38
b-man	Stslaptop; ware is osso-dsp-modules-rx-34? i can't find it enyware in the repo :(	20:38
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GAN800	I guess timeless was shooting for monthly, but we'd probably be better off di	20:39
GAN800	doing it quarterly	20:39
alterego	Someone here might be able to help. I have a couple of packages that should be part of the 'all' architecture. When I build for armel and i386 it recreates them and screws the md5 sum for the previous build.	20:39
Stslaptop	b-man: you cannot distribute that along with your ubuntu image so :P	20:39
alterego	How do I fix the .changes file?	20:39
alterego	automatically that is, I don't want to have to do it by hand.	20:39
Stslaptop	b-man: it's a closed source nokia package, so	20:39
GAN800	andre___, ha!	20:40
b-man	how can i get permissions to use it?	20:40
GAN800	Same, except for bug #5000. ;)	20:40
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Stslaptop	b-man: that's where you wait for mer & maemo.org to work :P	20:40
b-man	heh	20:40
Stslaptop	we used a "trick" in deblet, but i wouldnt recommend it for real use	20:40
Stslaptop	(the non-free local repository)	20:41
andre___	GAN800, i only remember that behdad was up for 9 hours to file #500000 and he was beaten by two other people (crevette and me) :-P	20:41
alterego	Heh	20:41
GAN800	lcuk, I used FBReader again for the first time since October and it feels way slower now for some reason. <_<	20:41
b-man	what kind of "trick"? :)	20:41
Stslaptop	b-man: you'll have to look at deblet installer source and the -nonfree packages	20:41
GAN800	lol	20:42
lcuk	well i stepped originally from my decrepid old 200mhz loox pda to my nokia at double speed and felt the same way ;)	20:42
Stslaptop	in any case, if you include that functionality, you cannot distribute the tar.gz with your ubuntu installation, b-man :P	20:42
GAN800	lcuk, make liqreader standalone and feature-complete already. :p	20:43
b-man	ok, so i won't include sound or dsp in my image :p	20:43
lcuk	i hear that about lots of things, ill say it again, i need to make liqbase a library (which i am already in the middle of doing)	20:43
alterego	Heh	20:43
lcuk	but its not going to happen instantly	20:44
lcuk	i have a job and family and relaxation first :)	20:44
b-man	b-man starts muttering and dpkg --removes some packages	20:44
GAN800	I DEMAND IMMEDIATE SATISFACTION OR A FULL REFUND! :P	20:44
b-man	lol	20:44
lcuk	gan, speak to nokia about the refund, but if you wanna pay me ill find my chap-stick and kneepads	20:45
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alterego	Hmm, ruby start up time is pretty poor :)	20:49
* alterego contemplates ruby-launcher		20:49
RST38bis	gan: what again? the logical conclusion to winmobile on nit thread?	20:49
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Stslaptop	"i thought my NIT ran windows mobile or symbian, and i want my money back?"	20:50
alterego	Heh	20:50
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GAN800	RST38bis, I was thinking it was liqos and now I want a refund from lcuk.	20:51
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lcuk	alterego, i know you said that varargs wont come from c, but is it relatively easy to add bindings to ruby from my c code?	20:52
lcuk	shurrup gan :P	20:52
alterego	Extremely.	20:52
lcuk	is there a pointer somewhere..	20:53
alterego	Making ruby bindings is very easy :)	20:53
RST38bis	gan: require it in blood!	20:53
alterego	I mean, actually, it's really hard. Ruby-Maemo is extremely complex.	20:53
alterego	:)	20:53
lcuk	ok then, ill go down the python route :P	20:53
alterego	:)	20:54
alterego	lcuk: http://www.rubycentral.com/pickaxe/ext_ruby.html	20:54
lcuk	Nokia-N810-23-14:~# apt-cache search ruby	20:56
lcuk	Nokia-N810-23-14:~#	20:56
lcuk	:(	20:56
alterego	deb http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/maemo/ diablo user	20:56
alterego	;)	20:56
lcuk	:D	20:58
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GAN800	RST38bis, ass-pennies!	20:58
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b-man	it looks like i finally found a major bug with my Ubuntu install; the desktop restarts when i try to type in eny text with xkbd and matchbox-keyboard. :( Stslaptop; eny suggestions?	21:03
b-man	this problem doesn't seem to exzist in mer.	21:04
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lcuk	b-man, i can imagine his response would be along the lines of "install mer" :D	21:05
* RST38bis off to watch Sherlock Holmes		21:05
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b-man	nah, i just need a way to keep xorg from messing up when i try to use a vertual keyboard.	21:06
b-man	:)	21:06
alterego	Time for another ruby-maemo snippet me thinks :)	21:07
lcuk	yeah, is it any vkb?	21:07
b-man	yes	21:08
lcuk	oooer	21:08
b-man	except hildon-input-method - i haven't tested it yet.	21:08
RST38h	Ah, wait	21:08
RST38h	GAN: BTW, can I ask you a [horror] MacOS question?	21:09
b-man	no matter what people say, i'm not going to stop working on improving ubuntu for the nit :D	21:10
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lcuk	b-man :) and good for you	21:10
b-man	i have too much enthusiasm to stop :)	21:10
lcuk	(and others who follow your trailblazing)	21:10
Stslaptop	b-man: hehe.. better finish your installer first ;)	21:12
b-man	yah ;)	21:12
b-man	b-man gos and gets lunch bye :)	21:13
lcuk	why are people in such a rush to finish everything all of a sudden :P	21:13
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* alterego posts another ruby-maemo snippet on his blog.		21:15
alterego	:)	21:15
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alterego	I kind of want to do something with gstreamer ..	21:19
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RST38h	Like....KILL IT? =)	21:28
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alterego	No, I want to do something _with_ it.	21:30
alterego	Like make a beautiful baby.	21:30
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RST38h	alterego: I suggest trying females first.	21:34
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RST38h	gstreamer isn't very useful in this aspect, or many others for this matter...	21:34
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* alterego yawns		21:37
qwerty12_N800	Humping GStreamer too for you? :p	21:37
qwerty12_N800	*much	21:37
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pupnik	like a hungry, angry baby	22:03
* RST38h added standardized touch screen support to EMULib		22:05
lcuk	RST38h, using xsp on maemo?	22:06
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RST38h	lcuk: not really, I have got a gtk widget for that	22:07
lcuk	where are you getting touch reports from then?	22:07
RST38h	gtk_widget_get_pointer(Widget,&X,&Y);	22:07
RST38h	you do not want to get touch reports from GTK on Maemo - it will slow your app to a crawl	22:08
lcuk	i use either x11 itself or xsp	22:09
lcuk	but xsp needs beating to a pulp in some situations	22:09
lcuk	(mainly due to it being a full touch surface library and operating in windowed mode doesnt work too well without messing)	22:11
RST38h	I just read the position when I need it	22:12
alterego	pupnik: I've setup a ruby-maemo apt repository with i386 and armel packages. It has the current stable release. If you installed the other packages manually you'll have to uninstall them. The repo is: "http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/maemo/ diablo user"	22:12
RST38h	lcuk: That is because you have not followed advice and created a standard transparent gtk widget filling the whole screen	22:12
lcuk	thats because i have not initialized GTK nor do i need to, a core x11 window works nicer and is less resource intensive	22:13
RST38h	lcuk: while it does not have to draw itself, it will take care of accepting and processing input	22:13
pupnik	alterego: i'll pull my old packages and link to that ok?	22:13
alterego	Yes please :)	22:13
lcuk	RST38h, can your touch thingy accept pressure?	22:13
RST38h	lcuk: Not using pressure reading - I only need it to simulate joypad	22:13
lcuk	then the x11 one i have is exactly the same	22:14
lcuk	when compiled without xsp library liqbase drops back to using core default x11 mourse readings	22:14
pupnik	alterego: i nuked my gregale/bora debs	22:16
alterego	Ah	22:16
alterego	Well, I'm not supporting them at the moment.	22:17
alterego	If anyone requests them I'll back port but I'm not going to bother otherwise.	22:17
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pupnik	right	22:18
alterego	Trying to get my head around libosso again ^_^	22:22
alterego	I'm writing some base code for my future ruby applications.	22:22
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lcuk	hiya CiroipN810, that clock of yours is looking fiiiiiiine :D	22:37
CiroipN810	oh,good afternoon lcuk	22:38
CiroipN810	happy new year	22:38
alterego	Damnit, "Application did not provide valid .desktop file" :(	22:38
lcuk	and a happy new year to yourself, seems odd that we say such things here but not in formal forums	22:39
CiroipN810	10x u, yes works fine on the tablet but i guess still not 100% ready	22:39
CiroipN810	im old school lcuk, every place on internet is the same for me :)	22:41
lcuk	CiroipN810, never seen it as such, different perspectives with single liners	22:44
CiroipN810	I always try to keep it real with real heads behind the monitor :)	22:45
lcuk	damn! thats where ive been going wrong all this time, i thought i was involved in some big simulation :D :P	22:46
CiroipN810	lol,yes, well some places overwhelm people i guess. I can hardly feel facebook people real	22:48
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alterego	Why can't it tell you _why_ the damn .desktop file isn't valid >:(	22:57
* alterego starts to get angry.		22:58
* qwerty12_N800 usually finds out his desktop files are invalid when hildon-desktop restarts :)		22:59
alterego	Any tips on what the usual causes are?	22:59
qwerty12_N800	Can you pastebin the file?	23:00
alterego	Sure, hang on.	23:00
lcuk	it not passing the validity test is one primary reason	23:00
lcuk	alterego, dont let qwerty anywhere near your package scripts ;)	23:00
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alterego	http://pastie.org/350861	23:01
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qwerty12_N800	tried making the exec line Exec=ruby 1.8 /home/t.swindell/projects/ruby-maemo/framework/framework.rb	23:03
alterego	Erm, the program runs.	23:03
lcuk	alterego, on the tablet does /home/t.swindell exist? i thought we had /home/user	23:03
alterego	I'm just getting a ".desktop file is not valid" error when I start it.	23:03
qwerty12_N800	alterego,, Ah, is this a libosso thing?	23:03
alterego	No,	23:03
alterego	No libosso yet.	23:04
qwerty12_N800	Hmm, is it hildon-desktop itself giving you the error?	23:04
alterego	Yes	23:04
alterego	hildon-desktop[26373]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Application Ruby Base did not provide valid .desktop file	23:04
qwerty12_N800	Lemme install the error visualizer and try out your desktop file	23:05
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lcuk	maybe the runcode returned from ruby when it executes is invalid?	23:06
alterego	O_o	23:06
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alterego	It wont return until the application terminates.	23:06
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lcuk	alterego, its not something as silly as I get from gcc if i dont put a trailing blank line	23:08
alterego	Tried with and without ..	23:09
lcuk	to get the default icon btw i dont think you need to specify an icon line	23:09
lcuk	i never included one with my liqremote thing	23:09
alterego	Yes, well. I did that to stop it complaining about an icon line :P	23:09
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lcuk	what complained about an icon line?	23:11
lcuk	when you installed it, or when you click it	23:11
alterego	Clicked it.	23:11
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alterego	Interesting ..	23:23
alterego	Well, it's working now. It has something to do with the application name me thinks ..	23:23
qwerty12_N800	alterego, I couldn't get that message repeated here anyway :p	23:24
alterego	It's happening when I use 'GLib#set_application_name' :/	23:24
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oli	can i play rmvb files on n800 (without conversion) ?	23:26
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alterego	Anyone know why g_set_application_name would have an adverse effect on the .desktop file?	23:36
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alterego	I wonder if it's to do with WM_CLASS ..	23:38
alterego	Yes, yes it is :)	23:38
alterego	:D	23:38
alterego	StartupWMClass has to be the same as g_set_application_name :)	23:39
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nikola	hello all	23:45
TrueJournals	Hello	23:46
nikola	i have invoked 'update-rc.d -f hildon-desktop remove'	23:46
nikola	then ran 'update-rc.d -f hildon-desktop defaults'	23:46
nikola	but hildon desktop still won't run	23:46
nikola	any ideas?	23:46
nikola	Nokia n810, by the way	23:47
nikola	with Maemo Diablo	23:47
TrueJournals	Pffft... no :-P	23:47
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TrueJournals	Ummm... don't do that next time? ;-)	23:47
nikola	lol, i am trying to set it up to only run my app	23:47
nikola	and it works	23:48
nikola	however, i cant get it back ;)	23:48
Stskeeps	look at the postinst of hildon-desktop maybe?	23:51
Stskeeps	in var/lib/dpkg/info	23:51
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alterego	Okay, so I've got OSSO working correctly now too :)	23:52
lcuk	nikola, have you also been messing and manually shifting stuff around inside /etc/init.d	23:54
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nikola	no i have not	23:55
lcuk	reading on here about adding the service: http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-manage-services-with-update-rc.d	23:55
lcuk	does it do basically the same thing when you readd it or does it skip some or does it give errors	23:56
nikola	it places the same links in the rc folders	23:57
nikola	S20...etc	23:57
lcuk	can only suggest following Stskeeps' advice and try checking out the postinst	23:58
lcuk	but nikola stopping hildon desktop brings up everything else and the machine works fully, just without a desktop?	23:59

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