IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2008-11-11

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dksaarth	can anybody here help me get my app installed to the emulator ? I have successfully installed the necessary libraries from source packages, and succesfully built my program	00:05
dksaarth	im now trying to get it to my emulated device	00:06
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dksaarth	how do I go about that ? previously i could install the made packages, but i now i only have source file, make file and executable ?	00:06
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johnx	one power supply later...	00:08
Stskeeps	ick, it died?	00:08
dksaarth	eeek	00:08
dksaarth	welcome back johnx	00:08
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johnx	it died a slow painful death	00:08
Stskeeps	johnx: one more for the deblet/m-r "in memoriam" list	00:08
dksaarth	johnx, could you give me some more advice ? is it necessary to build a package to get it onto my emulated device ? I have successfully installed the necessary libraries from source packages, and succesfully built my program	00:08
Stskeeps	with the other project i had it was hosting providers going bankrupt, heh	00:08
dksaarth	but I only have source files, make file and a executable	00:09
Stskeeps	dksaarth: qemu emulator or?	00:09
dksaarth	sb2 ? I dont understand the question ?	00:09
dksaarth	the thing that shows up when I do maemo-runtime start diablo41_armel :)	00:09
Stskeeps	sb2 is basically just a cross-compilation environment	00:09
Stskeeps	ah	00:09
Stskeeps	that's xephyr	00:09
johnx	dksaarth, you can just copy stuff in to place, but the more libraries you have the more of a pain it is	00:10
Stskeeps	export DISPLAY=:1; ./yourprogram or something isnt it?	00:10
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Stskeeps	or the run-standalone.sh one	00:11
Stskeeps	(i dunno with maemo sdk+)	00:11
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johnx	so what are the practical consequences of osso-gnomevfs not conflicting with libgnomevfs?	00:13
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johnx	s/not//	00:15
infobot	johnx meant: so what are the practical consequences of osso-gnomevfs conflicting with libgnomevfs?	00:15
dksaarth	thanks Stskeeps	00:15
Stskeeps	johnx: everything gnome breaks	00:15
Stskeeps	johnx: i'm recompiling with style similar to ubuntu	00:15
Stskeeps	2:version vs version	00:15
dksaarth	is it possible to get network access through this emulator ? I'm trying to see if my program can run on these devices without too much recoding - so far i have install the necessary libraries, compiled it, and it appears on screen	00:17
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dksaarth	I would like to see if some of the network functionality is there (to test out if my libraries worked, but if i can compile and run they should have been done correctly right ? )	00:18
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Stskeeps	well its not really an emulator, it's just a x server within a x server and your binary runs on top of your linux kernel	00:19
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dksaarth	okay, compiled for arm tho ?	00:20
Stskeeps	yeah	00:20
Stskeeps	it uses a binary emulator so	00:20
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Stskeeps	should have net access then, may need to use ips then	00:21
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dksaarth	woot	00:22
dksaarth	the sending of the sip messages works	00:23
* Stskeeps finds HCI papers goes down a lot easier with vodka.		00:23
dksaarth	hah	00:23
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dksaarth	Basically, the reason I have been playing around with this stuff is that I want to write a proposal for our lab to get 2 N8x0's	00:23
dksaarth	but in order to do that, I need to say it won't be that hard to port the software	00:24
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Stskeeps	we have a bunch of n8x0s (i'm a student programmer), two beagleboards.. i love my work	00:24
dksaarth	aah awesome	00:24
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dksaarth	i have my app on screen apparently working - is this as far as I can take it before buying one ? or is there some more emulation I can do ?	00:24
Stskeeps	there's some more possibility but you need a firmware image and stuff	00:25
dksaarth	aah okay	00:26
Stskeeps	but if you have your app working like that, you're good to go	00:26
dksaarth	awesome!	00:26
dksaarth	now I just need to convince my supervisor ;)	00:26
Stskeeps	and if he says anything there's also debian for the tablets and prototype ubuntu-based maemo system by community going on	00:28
Stskeeps	so porting is a lot easier	00:28
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dksaarth	Nice, thanks	00:28
Stskeeps	what do you research in?	00:28
dksaarth	A couple of the guys here look at the IMS (IP multimedia subsystem) framework - sip based telecommunications framework	00:29
dksaarth	Im tinkering around with videoconferencing	00:29
dksaarth	(over the IMS)	00:30
Stskeeps	i had stuff working with gstreamer atleast	00:30
dksaarth	aah nice - we use gstreamer for our ims client	00:30
dksaarth	a couple of N8x0's would be a nice demonstration of our work + it would get rid of the need to carry machines around to show our work off	00:31
Stskeeps	yeah, except when you have to deal with projectors, then you need usb2vga stuff :P	00:31
Stskeeps	johnx: brilliant:)	00:31
dksaarth	haha	00:31
johnx	it'll be chunky until we can get back to manual fb updates though	00:32
Stskeeps	yeah, well, we aren't viewing video :P	00:32
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Stskeeps	johnx: does it actually work? and is it the tslib sui had?	00:33
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johnx	it's probably the same tslib, given that it's from debian	00:34
johnx	no modifications. I thought i needed to hack it, but that turned out to be wrong	00:34
Stskeeps	k - there wa a tslib at http://nchipin.kos.to/deblet/ so	00:35
johnx	yes, same source package	00:36
Stskeeps	ah	00:36
Stskeeps	alright	00:36
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johnx	wait, hang on, let me check something	00:36
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johnx	ah, his is better. hal support	00:37
Stskeeps	there's a TODO for that part though?	00:37
johnx	the debian changelog says "Add hal support"	00:37
Stskeeps	ah	00:37
Stskeeps	i'm recompiling osso-gnomevfs atm towards getting it to work with libgtkhtml from ubuntu	00:38
Stskeeps	with the new version	00:38
Stskeeps	without that we can't get hildon-help, so	00:38
Stskeeps	why on earth does it end up depending on selinux though, i dunno	00:40
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johnx	ahaha	00:40
johnx	that is pretty weird	00:40
Stskeeps	most secure mobile os, ever, unintentionally	00:41
Stskeeps	or something	00:41
Stskeeps	seriously though, i've seen several packages build itself with selinux for no good reason	00:41
Stskeeps	and it doesn't make it better selinux is NSA's work	00:42
Stskeeps	:P	00:42
johnx	don't like the NSA? have something to hide? :D	00:42
Stskeeps	though i do admit increased security may be more relevant on a mobile device in the futre	00:43
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johnx	I'd really like to see sandboxing become popular on linux	00:44
Stskeeps	http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7720049.stm - woohoo, denmark now has nuclear weapons!	00:45
johnx	in a really user accessible way	00:45
rwhitby	denmark has user accessible nuclear weapons?	00:45
rwhitby	;-)	00:45
johnx	actually...looks like it	00:46
Stskeeps	johnx: regarding image creation, should we go with the deblet installer?	00:48
Stskeeps	and a repo	00:48
johnx	that seems reasonable	00:49
Stskeeps	k	00:49
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Stskeeps	"Mobile Virtualization Platform,"	01:00
Stskeeps	oh my.	01:00
* Stskeeps sells his vmware stock (if he had any)		01:01
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johnx	hmm? because they're working on an ARM emulator?	01:03
GAN800	Stskeeps, can I run Windows on my cellphone now?	01:03
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Stskeeps	http://news.zdnet.co.uk/communications/0,1000000085,39547412,00.htm	01:04
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johnx	uhm, are they seriously going to run a fully virtualized system on a handheld?	01:06
Stskeeps	i think they'd be a lot better off running L4 + linux on top really	01:06
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Stskeeps	and then seperate out some sandboxed services (DRM, billing, etc) and provide a communication to them	01:07
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johnx	well personally, I think keeping users out of their own phones is a losing cause	01:15
johnx	but there's a lot of money to be made while people think it can be done :)	01:16
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Stskeeps	yeah.. its a interesting balance though	01:16
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* Stskeeps sighs over licenses		01:21
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GAN800	Stskeeps, but can I run Windows on my phone?	01:25
lcuk	yeah! vista as well	01:25
lcuk	isn't the oqo about small enough for that	01:26
Stskeeps	GAN800: windows 3.11 already runs on your tablet	01:26
Stskeeps	okay. is apt braindamaged or something?	01:26
Stskeeps	Depends: libgnomevfs2-dev (>= 2.8.4-2)	01:26
Stskeeps	installed version is 2:2.16.3-1osso39mr0	01:27
Stskeeps	and it failed without the 2: too	01:27
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Stskeeps	and i know 2.8.4 is lexically larger than 2.16	01:28
johnx	no idea here	01:29
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johnx	is there a matching < clause somewhere?	01:29
Stskeeps	not sure.. i'm clashing with libgnomeui-dev basically	01:30
* Stskeeps gives up and builds maemo gtkhtml		01:32
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johnx	alright, you try that and I'll give it a shot	01:33
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Stskeeps	behaviour might be because libosso gnomevfs2-dev replaces/provides/conflicts libgnomevfs2-dev	01:34
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Stskeeps	gtkhtml is rolling, i'm off to bed	01:39
johnx	'night	01:39
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Stskeeps	would be delightful if you can find the issue, coexistence is definately a major thing in this stuff :P	01:40
johnx	I'm grabbing all your .debs now	01:41
johnx	I'll see what I can do	01:41
* johnx wonders if it co-exists in an API way		01:41
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dmsuperman	I have an n800. I don't like those silicone cases. Are there any other options that you guys know of?	01:53
dmsuperman	I can't find any	01:53
johnx	no case at all has worked well for me :)	01:53
dmsuperman	Well I just dropped mine	01:53
johnx	me too. on blacktop	01:54
johnx	like 3 times	01:54
dmsuperman	On cement for me	01:54
johnx	s/blacktop/concrete/	01:54
dmsuperman	I hate it though	01:54
dmsuperman	I have these deep gashes on the corner	01:54
dmsuperman	I want to prevent any more	01:54
johnx	heh...same here actually :)	01:54
johnx	I have some kind of case for a game system I think, might be nintendo DS or a PSP case, but I only use it when throwing my n800 on a backpack	01:55
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GAN800	Stskeeps, sorry, forgot the smilies. :P	01:56
dmsuperman	This is saddening	01:56
dmsuperman	Those silicone ones suck though	01:56
johnx	so you're looking for a case that lets you use it while it while inside the case?	01:56
lcuk	dmsuperman, i keep my 810 in a wooden case	01:57
johnx	I think there was some leather one that folded	01:57
lcuk	get yourself a router and measure up	01:57
dmsuperman	It needs to be only slightly larger than the n800 so it can still fit in my pocket	01:57
dmsuperman	Even that sock thing that comes with it	01:57
dmsuperman	I'd like something like that	01:57
dmsuperman	But the n800 slides out too easily	01:58
lcuk	i have an old pda case that i keep in my pocket	01:58
lcuk	the 810 fits nice n snug :)	01:58
dmsuperman	:'(	01:58
dmsuperman	Anybody have one of those silicone cases?	01:59
dmsuperman	Perhaps if it's easy to slip out of	01:59
dmsuperman	Then it'd be fine	01:59
dmsuperman	I don't use the speakers all that often	01:59
johnx	wait, so you want something you can just store it in? or a case that lets you use the device while it's in the case?	01:59
dmsuperman	Well, I'd like something that leaves the entire front face open	02:00
dmsuperman	But if not, at least the screen and stylux	02:00
dmsuperman	stylus*	02:00
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dmsuperman	So I'm thinking if teh n800 can slip out of that silicone case easily	02:00
cars___	dmsuperman, I'm using an Otterbox for mine -- very safe, but it's not exactly pocket-friendly :)	02:03
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johnx	mine is pretty similar to this: http://www.vavolo.com/productdetails.asp,ProductID,3880,,.htm	02:06
johnx	you can just unzip it and use the tablet normally	02:06
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solca	johnx: the weird thing is that afaik you just open the watchdog device and keep writing every 10s	03:29
johnx	still having problems with it?	03:29
solca	sorry I hit up-return and post the last entry :)	03:29
johnx	no prob	03:30
solca	johnx: I have now maemo-r installed from the tarball, how I can installed the new updates?	03:32
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johnx	right now it's kind of a piece-by-piece method	03:32
solca	and where are you posting the new stuff?	03:33
johnx	packages compiled by stskeeps are at: http://trac.tspre.org/stskeeps and packages compiled by me are at http://trac.tspre.org/johnx/packages	03:33
johnx	we're compiling from stage.maemo.org with as few changes as possible	03:33
johnx	which reminds me, I need to get hacking on osso-gnomevfs packaging	03:34
solca	excellent, will try those packages	03:35
johnx	it's not enough to have a desktop yet, just a good start at building more packages	03:35
solca	sure, X with a terminal is enough for me right now to test a working kernel	03:36
johnx	There might not be a keymap in X yet	03:37
johnx	you could set it up to give you a console over usb ethernet though	03:37
johnx	s/console/telnet session/	03:38
infobot	johnx meant: you could set it up to give you a telnet session over usb ethernet though	03:38
solca	right now I'm at the console via the deblet rescue menu	03:38
solca	which is a good thing	03:38
johnx	ah, I thought you were booting directly to rootfs	03:38
solca	I haven't tried, I boot via bootmenu and then pressing the home key to get the rescue menu	03:39
solca	and then the console	03:40
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* Mousey researches canola+daap		03:40
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* Mousey comes up empty		03:44
* Mousey cries		03:44
Mousey	;_;	03:44
johnx	wow...that was some fast research	03:44
Mousey	i'm that good	03:44
johnx	canola+upnp works well enough, but it doesn't cope that well with a couple thousand songs	03:45
Mousey	Canola doesn't support any Daap Authentication Method.	03:45
Mousey	as of 12-13-2006	03:45
Mousey	yah, i've used it with mythtv	03:45
Mousey	works really well	03:45
Mousey	but	03:45
Mousey	daap would be the nice	03:45
Mousey	stupid self correcting spelling	03:45
johnx	what uses daap again? is it itunes?	03:46
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Mousey	and those little music server thigns you plug in	03:54
johnx	I wouldn't buy a music server unless it ran Linux :)	03:54
johnx	or maybe os x	03:55
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solca	wtf: http://wiki.maemo.org/Flasher	04:08
solca	?	04:08
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johnx	https://wiki.maemo.org/Flasher	04:08
johnx	err...well, that's not working either :/	04:08
solca	;)	04:09
johnx	it'll be back eventually I'm sure	04:09
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lcuk	http://science.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1024575&cid=25714077	04:18
solca	johnx: are you compiling source packages from stage.maemo.org or from mojo?	04:20
johnx	stage.maemo.org	04:20
solca	I understood that all packages was from mojo (ubuntu) and just some parts from maemo...	04:21
johnx	well the base distribution is from mojo. Then the maemo GUI is pulled from stage.maemo.org	04:23
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solca	the mojo packages are recompiled or just installed directly from mojo to your tarball?	04:24
johnx	it's just a tarball of a mojo debootstrap	04:24
johnx	with a couple things added to make it bootable	04:24
solca	johnx: thx, now if I understand correctly the boot sequence: kernel->initfs->linuxrc->mmcblk0p2->linuxrc->/sbin/init ?	04:27
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johnx	seems about right	04:27
solca	ok thx!	04:27
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derf	http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5185504436.html	04:34
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solca	any ideas what state 'MALF' means?	04:54
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disco_stu	hi	06:41
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darkblue_B	hello - I have been away from this for a couple of months, forgive my dense questions.. I want to do a demo tomorrow with an http server of sone kind.. lighthttpd ?	07:01
johnx	lighthttpd is good	07:02
johnx	are you just serving static web pages?	07:02
darkblue_B	hmm, I have some dojo toolkit pages	07:04
darkblue_B	so its 'ajax'	07:04
darkblue_B	they are not php, if thats what you are asking	07:05
darkblue_B	I'm trying to remember how this works.. looking for my OS version	07:05
darkblue_B	its fairly recently updated	07:05
darkblue_B	I am logged in as root	07:05
darkblue_B	I have some python scripts .. thats already installed and runninng	07:05
darkblue_B	the web pages call them on the python http server, on a seperate port	07:06
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johnx	I think apache2 and nginx are available as well if that doesn't end up working for you, but I've got to head out for now	07:10
johnx	good luck	07:10
darkblue_B	johnx: I dont think I see a lighthttpd in the app mgr list on the N800.. which repo do I go it?	07:10
darkblue_B	.. to find it?	07:11
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darkblue_B	Nokia-N800-23-14	07:13
johnx	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23840&highlight=lighttpd&page=2	07:14
darkblue_B	looking, thx	07:14
darkblue_B	I use sqlite3 from python, btw	07:16
darkblue_B	to do this work	07:16
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darkblue_B	johnx: geez, that was easy.. it worked	07:20
darkblue_B	php there, even though I dont need it	07:20
darkblue_B	now to figure out where everything landed	07:21
johnx	dpkg -L packagename	07:21
johnx	glad it worked :)	07:21
* johnx heads out the door		07:21
darkblue_B	:-)	07:22
darkblue_B	thank you	07:22
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Sage	hi, is it possible to install multiple packages (that do not have dependencies to each other) with single .install file on maemo 4.x?	09:19
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X-Fade	morning.	10:09
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RST38h	moo, XFade	10:12
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Sargun	Wait, can you upgrade the internal storage on the N810?	10:37
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aquatix	Sargun: not that i'm aware	10:39
aquatix	maybe with some soldering	10:40
X-Fade	No, forget about that.	10:40
X-Fade	Unless you are good at bga unsoldering and want to remove your cpu ;)	10:41
Sage	Because nobody said anything, I guess that nobody knows answer to my question? :)	10:42
X-Fade	Sage, I don't think so.	10:43
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X-Fade	I think you need to create a meta package for that.	10:43
Sargun	heh...	10:43
Sargun	so I heard on ITT that some people have some sort of real time traffic for way finder map	10:44
Sage	So there is no ways to have single file install for multiple packages located in different repos.	10:44
Sargun	I purchased a wayfinder license	10:44
Sargun	how do I get real time traffic working?	10:44
X-Fade	Sage: No. But multiple packages in different repos is about the worst thing you can have.	10:45
X-Fade	As that sets you up for dependency hell.	10:47
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Sage	Is it possible to create a meta package, e.g., meta.deb what installs also dependencies from repositories when installed? Or does that meta.deb also have to be in some repository?	10:56
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X-Fade	Sage: Or you just upload all your packages to Extras and have non of these issues?	10:58
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inz	Sage, yes, the meta package must be in a repository	10:59
Sage	So it is as hard as I though :)	11:02
Sage	thx, for the informations.	11:02
inz	Sage, just put the package in a/the repository	11:03
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Meizirkki_n810	M-R team?: does xorg packages in http://trac.tspre.org/m-r/incoming/ work. Touchscreen?	12:50
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camel_liu	hi, all	12:56
Meizirkki_n810	hi	12:56
camel_liu	I'm trying to install gst-plugins-bad in scratchbox.	12:56
camel_liu	I met a problem	12:57
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camel_liu	I installed swfdec lib, but gst-plugins-bad's configure seems to be unaware of the installed swfdec lib. When configure finish, the plugins' list of will not be built always includes swfdec.	12:59
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camel_liu	the same with timidity, but different with wildmidi. When I installed wildmidi lib, it will be move to the list of 'will be built'.	13:01
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Jaffa	Morning, all	13:09
Meizirkki_n810	good evening ;)	13:10
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johnx	Meizirkki_n810, those should work, yes	13:55
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: go for the ones johnx has	14:05
Stskeeps	i think	14:05
johnx	Stskeeps, I didn't even see those ones built for m-r when I built mine	14:05
johnx	I'm sure mine aren't any better and possibly worse	14:05
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Stskeeps	k	14:06
Stskeeps	well yours definately work;)	14:07
RST38h	A survey has shown that almost half of Brits haven't got a clue how to use the possessive apostrophe correctly, with the most common lapse being the inability to "punctuate a possessive plural"	14:07
RST38h	Hehe	14:07
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johnx	Stskeeps, random thought about osso-gnomevfs and "Provides: "	14:32
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johnx	trying to find out if "Provides: foo" provides a specific version or just foo in general	14:35
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lcuk	RST38h, where's this survey result page. it sounds' like fun	14:35
StsN800	johmx, thats a good question	14:37
lcuk	Stskeeps, how much faster is beagle vs n8x0?	14:37
johnx	yeah, looks like provides: doesn't provide a specific version	14:37
StsN800	omap3 vs omap2, 600mhz i think	14:37
lcuk	i dont mean mhz, i mean usable speed differences - if it feasible to run office etc natively without a 5 minute startup time and stuff	14:38
StsN800	lcuk, no clue	14:38
StsN800	didnt get a screen on it yet	14:38
lcuk	ahhhh	14:39
johnx	so the other question about osso-gnomevfs2 is: Is it really a drop in replacement for the real gnomevfs?	14:39
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StsN800	it does provide it	14:40
StsN800	and its based upon afaik	14:40
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StsN800	and has soname libgnomevfs	14:41
johnx	so we'll assume it's a drop in replacement unless something fails :)	14:41
StsN800	maybe a package rename is in order	14:41
StsN800	so logic starts working again	14:42
johnx	yeah, that's pretty icky, but I guess it's the same situation as gtk :/	14:42
StsN800	think we should ask sui, he might have a better solution	14:44
johnx	we also might want to ask Nokia. osso-gnomevfs is a little old. they probably are planning to up to at least the current version for fremantle	14:44
StsN800	that too	14:45
RST38h	lcuk: No idea, but I guess the rule of thumb is to check the BBC =)	14:47
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StsN800	johnx, guess we can leave the problem for now and continue towards hildon	14:50
StsN800	since we.have it microdocumented we can return to it	14:50
johnx	fair enough. any suggestion for a compile to start before I head off to bed?	14:51
johnx	It's requests hour :)	14:51
lcuk	could you compile me a list of open access bank account numbers with passwords?	14:52
StsN800	fix g_gnuc_function in gtkhtml to g_strfunc and compile i guess	14:52
StsN800	matter of search and replace	14:52
lcuk	RST38h, the bbc is not better	14:52
johnx	think I'll manage :)	14:53
StsN800	im in classes and work the next 8 hours so	14:53
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RST38h	lcuk: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/11/apostrophe_abuse/	15:18
* RST38h doesn't get it by the way. Why is it so hard for native speakers?		15:18
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user__	buongiorno a tutti	15:21
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proto1	anyone tried synergy on the n810?	15:22
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Meizirkki_n810	Johnx: You got Xorg working? Do i have to mess with xorg.conf or orher files?	15:24
johnx	nope, just download the xorg.conf from http://trac.tspre.org/johnx/packages/x11/xorg.conf	15:24
johnx	you need to run ts_calibrate before that though	15:25
Meizirkki_n810	can i copy pointercal from maemo?	15:26
johnx	errr...maybe?	15:26
johnx	yeah, should work	15:26
Meizirkki_n810	ok, thanks :)	15:26
StsN800	and the ln -s fb0 fb	15:27
* johnx <3 distcc		15:28
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Meizirkki_n810	yep	15:28
johnx	heh...everyone is is using their tablet. I'm just compiling on mine :)	15:29
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Meizirkki_n810	i have compiled once	15:34
Meizirkki_n810	with my tablet	15:34
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StsN800	we should make omapfb use /dev/fb0 instead of /dev/fb	15:34
Meizirkki_n810	i compiled svn version of tablet-hw-n8x0-nonfree	15:34
StsN800	hehe. and its just a script	15:35
Meizirkki_n810	yep, and my compilation did not work ;J	15:35
Meizirkki_n810	no access to nokia files	15:35
StsN800	mm	15:36
Meizirkki_n810	when i just force-arch it, it works	15:36
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Meizirkki_n810	it looks like xorg needs at least xfonts-base	15:37
StsN800	yeah	15:37
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Meizirkki_n810	but it is not dependanchy	15:39
Meizirkki_n810	need to install manually	15:39
Meizirkki_n810	anyway, now i finally got working ubuntu	15:39
Meizirkki_n810	no more segmentation faults	15:40
Meizirkki_n810	=)	15:40
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StsN800	yay	15:41
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Meizirkki_n810	if i install gdm does it start automatically when xorg starts	15:44
Meizirkki_n810	or when i run startx?	15:45
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johnx	it will run when you do: /etc/init.d/gdm start	15:48
aquatix	on debian that's done automagically	15:48
Meizirkki_n810	does that start xorg too?	15:49
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johnx	Meizirkki_n810, yes	15:50
Meizirkki_n810	thanks	15:50
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johnx	gtkhtml wants gnomeui...	15:55
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Stskeeps	eh.	16:01
Stskeeps	gtkhtml from trunk says especially that it does not have gnome dependancies	16:01
johnx	yeah, I'll try --without	16:02
johnx	after all it's exactly the same gtkhtml as in diablo	16:02
RST38h	gtkhtml SHOULD NOT require gnome UI	16:05
RST38h	it's a widget after all	16:06
Stskeeps	johnx: where on earth does it want it?	16:06
Stskeeps	in source?	16:06
johnx	it's configure script wants it, I'll try --without-gnomeui in a second, but I'm fighting with glade ATM	16:07
Stskeeps	k	16:07
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Stskeeps	weird though, didn't get that part	16:11
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Stskeeps	heh, i discovered something funny about iphones today.. people use the shiny backside to use as mirror instead	16:16
Stskeeps	:P	16:16
johnx	glade wins round one. I'm going to sleep. :P	16:16
Navi	Ew	16:17
Navi	Sleep	16:17
Navi	Sleep is for the weak	16:17
Stskeeps	nini johnx	16:17
johnx	Navi, yeah, usually that's my line. :P	16:17
johnx	'night all	16:17
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prez00	hello	16:19
Navi	night	16:19
prez00	ever since latest update, my n800's email usinh imap stops updating, my browser gets stuck with an updating window and machine reboots randomly..	16:20
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Stskeeps	.ni?	16:22
prez00	nicaragua	16:22
Stskeeps	ah	16:22
Stskeeps	prez00: you're running into Modest, it sounds like :P	16:22
prez00	suggestions?	16:23
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Stskeeps	not really, i have same issue	16:23
disco_stu	prez00: hola nicaraguense	16:24
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Meizirkki	http://pastebin.com/d42d3f3e3	16:24
Meizirkki	xservder did not start	16:25
Meizirkki	xorg	16:25
prez00	right now i can't even open browser... i get an updating window in upper right corner...	16:25
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RST38h	Sts: you do understand that a real man (tm) never uses a mirror except for shaving	16:25
RST38h	=)	16:25
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Stskeeps	RST38h: this was a woman, too	16:25
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RST38h	Sts: Ah	16:25
prez00	i killed browser and tried to restart, nothin	16:25
Stskeeps	Meizirkki: try add Nokia-N810-23-14 to your /etc/hosts maybe	16:26
Meizirkki	ok	16:26
Stskeeps	just 127.0.0.1	16:27
Meizirkki	There is nothing in /etc/hosts!	16:27
Meizirkki	weird	16:27
mgedmin	there should be	16:27
Stskeeps	that's probably an issue too	16:27
Meizirkki	copy from maemo?	16:27
Stskeeps	127.0.0.1 localhost	16:27
Stskeeps	atleast	16:27
mgedmin	127.0.0.1 Nokia-N810-23-14 localhost	16:27
Meizirkki	ok	16:27
Meizirkki	thanks	16:27
mgedmin	is the default content of that file	16:27
Stskeeps	what mgedmin said	16:27
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disco_stu	if i create a swap partition in my mmc1, will maemo use it ?	16:30
Meizirkki	you can activate it by running "swapon <patrition>	16:30
Stskeeps	if you insert a swapon somewhere in your init script	16:30
Stskeeps	:P	16:30
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disco_stu	then i wont be able to hotswap it, right ?	16:31
Stskeeps	you'll have very interesting experiences if you do, yeah	16:32
disco_stu	and it will be added to the virtual memory already created in the control panel ?	16:32
disco_stu	will it*	16:32
Stskeeps	maybe	16:32
disco_stu	lets check	16:33
disco_stu	what is the schema of partitions, here ?	16:33
Stskeeps	mmcblkXpY	16:34
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Meizirkki	Xll won't work	16:34
disco_stu	the swap is added	16:34
disco_stu	nice	16:34
Meizirkki	i'll try johnx:s compilation	16:35
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Meizirkki	*Xorg	16:35
Stskeeps	Meizirkki: odd, may just be startx messing up though	16:36
Stskeeps	try X & ; export DISPLAY=:0; xmessage hi	16:36
Meizirkki	ok	16:36
Stskeeps	(with x11-utils on)	16:36
Stskeeps	this in bootable or chroot?	16:36
Meizirkki	bootable	16:36
Stskeeps	k	16:36
Meizirkki	trying to start it from telnet	16:36
Stskeeps	you have pressed the three enters so the system keeps booting	16:37
Stskeeps	?	16:37
Meizirkki	yep	16:38
Stskeeps	k	16:38
Meizirkki	it shows this : xf86PciVideoInfo is not set	16:38
Meizirkki	Wait	16:39
Stskeeps	normal, and fine, i believe	16:39
Stskeeps	n800's don't have pci	16:39
Meizirkki	The johnx:s xorg.conf seems to not be applied :P	16:40
Stskeeps	put it in /etc/X11?	16:40
Meizirkki	i downloaded it with wget when i was in that directory	16:41
Meizirkki	and of cource wget named it xorg.conf.1	16:41
Stskeeps	ah	16:41
X-Fade	Duh, AWACS plane flying low over my house..	16:44
X-Fade	That bastard is loud.	16:44
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aquatix	X-Fade: they found you?	16:48
X-Fade	Don't take my tablet.. Please.....	16:48
aquatix	expect helicopters next	16:49
aquatix	g	16:49
X-Fade	aquatix: I'm used to those. Apache base 10km from my house ;)	16:49
X-Fade	And chinooks too.	16:49
disco_stu	X-Fade: i envy you	16:49
* aquatix doesn't		16:50
* aquatix likes some rest when at home		16:50
X-Fade	disco_stu: Chinooks have a habit of dropping out of the sky..	16:50
aquatix	lol	16:50
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* aquatix sees enough helicopters at work		16:50
disco_stu	aquatix: where u work ?	16:50
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aquatix	disco_stu: dutch naval base	16:51
disco_stu	wow.. awsome	16:52
disco_stu	s/awsome/awesome/	16:52
infobot	disco_stu meant: wow.. awesome	16:52
X-Fade	aquatix: DH?	16:52
aquatix	sounds more interesting then it is ;)	16:52
aquatix	X-Fade: yeah	16:52
X-Fade	aquatix: Not many other options ;)	16:53
Stskeeps	.nl has a naval fleet? :P houseboats? :P	16:53
aquatix	X-Fade: ;)	16:53
aquatix	Stskeeps: ghehehe	16:53
* aquatix looks at a submarine in the drydock		16:54
disco_stu	aquatix: i u take a pic of some choppers you could share them with me	16:54
* aquatix isn't allowed to		16:54
disco_stu	noone should see ya	16:54
aquatix	still :)	16:54
aquatix	besides, my n810 makes shitty pics ;)	16:55
Stskeeps	"where's your tablet today?" "sitting in .nl's first nuclear bomb"	16:55
aquatix	ghehe	16:55
aquatix	`oh, it's powering our new submarine. why?'	16:56
Meizirkki	Xorg still won't start: 0: /usr/bin/X11/X(xf86SigHandler+0x70) [0x7dcbc]	16:57
Stskeeps	ln -s /dev/fb0 /dev/fb	16:57
Meizirkki	thanks	16:58
* Stskeeps heads home		16:59
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Meizirkki	i done it before my first try, but noe i did it again and worked	16:59
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Meizirkki	Touchscreen and D-pad does not work :(	17:00
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Meizirkki	i need to do ln -s /dev/fb0 /dev/fb every time i reboot?	17:06
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hahlobit	i have noticed too that tablets doesn't like rebooting.	17:09
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Meizirkki	ubuntu-mobile runs directly :)	17:11
hahlobit	maybe they are evil cause permissions goes 666 when reboot :)	17:11
Meizirkki	at least somehow	17:11
Meizirkki	:)	17:11
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Meizirkki	Is there some script that runs before xorg, wehre i could add "ln -s /dev/fb0 /dev/fb"	17:19
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki: pic?	17:45
Stskeeps	it actually works?	17:45
Meizirkki	I can see that top-panel	17:46
Meizirkki	like in chroot	17:46
Stskeeps	woo, screenshot is in order i guess :P	17:46
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Meizirkki	trying to make mobile-basic-flash work	17:46
Stskeeps	apt-get install imagemagick, import -window root img.png i think	17:46
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Meizirkki	adobe-flash player gives me /usr/lib/browser/plugins/libflashplayer.so	17:47
Meizirkki	does it work?	17:47
Meizirkki	ln -s it to xulrunners plugins	17:47
Stskeeps	hmm.	17:47
Stskeeps	do you have the gtk version we have?	17:47
Meizirkki	i tried, but it seemed to not work	17:48
Meizirkki	just basic mojos thing	17:48
Meizirkki	s	17:48
Stskeeps	k	17:48
Stskeeps	else you need the libdebletflashplayer.so thing	17:48
Meizirkki	deblet-flashplayer did not give me that	17:48
Stskeeps	i know	17:48
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Stskeeps	basically libflashplayer requires some things that are only in the maemo GTK, afaik, and some other libs, and libdebletflashplayer.so is a hack that makes it think it is in that environment	17:49
Meizirkki	ok	17:50
Stskeeps	but its kinda a difficult hack	17:51
Stskeeps	i would love a screenshot of U-m running, even just with top bar	17:51
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Meizirkki	so, installing your gtk would help?	17:51
Stskeeps	possibly, yeah	17:51
Meizirkki	gonna try... :)	17:52
Stskeeps	there was some other thing too but i cant recall off hand	17:52
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ron1n	hey guys	17:53
ron1n	do we know anything about a 'next gen' or 9 series nokia internet tablet?, I'm holding out on buying one	17:53
Stskeeps	not a certain date but we do know some things about it	17:54
Meizirkki_n810	Stskeeps: sorry, there is one thing wrong in my DUN guide	17:54
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: mm?	17:54
ron1n	Stskeeps, thanks	17:54
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Meizirkki_n810	in /etc/ppp/peers/mobile file	17:54
Stskeeps	ron1n: but not anything like form factor, look, etc	17:54
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: lemme just add you to the user file	17:54
Stskeeps	sec	17:54
ron1n	I bought a 770 a few years ago, and then nokia goes and comes out with the n800 -_-	17:54
mgedmin	ron1n: expect one no sooner than middle of next year	17:55
Meizirkki_n810	ok	17:55
mgedmin	but it'll have 3d	17:56
ron1n	mgedmin, awesome	17:56
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RST38h	And it will run WinXP^H^H^Hsorry	17:59
GAN800	lcuk, 3x faster. More if we get more RAM.	17:59
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X-Fade	GAN800: Not counting the multimedia extensions/accelerators, which would help more.	18:00
Meizirkki	How can i edit deblet wiki after logging in?	18:00
Meizirkki	Stskeeps:	18:00
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Meizirkki	Found it :)	18:01
GAN800	X-Fade, sure, specific cases like with NEON and video will be more insane.	18:02
* Jaffa bingles mvo with some magic fairy dust		18:02
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X-Fade	GAN800: http://maemo.org/profile/list/category/mediawiki_edits/ :)	18:03
X-Fade	GAN800: Will fill in the upcoming days of course..	18:03
X-Fade	But that will probably give you a big boost.	18:03
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GAN800	X-Fade, what's the modifier?	18:04
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X-Fade	GAN800: sqrt(edits > 50 chars)	18:04
Stskeeps	we should have a line count from irc counting in karma too	18:05
Jaffa	X-Fade: btw, just looking at the URL reminded me: I keep thinking there should be a "by total" in the sort list	18:05
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Stskeeps	i'd definately be a karma whore then	18:06
Jaffa	Stskeeps: it's been discussed. I'm in favour of it, but I dunno if anyone's working on it.	18:06
X-Fade	Jaffa: Which point to /profile/list/ ?	18:06
Stskeeps	yeah, but difficult to use for anything really	18:06
w00t_	Stskeeps: you're always a karma whore	18:07
Jaffa	X-Fade: correct	18:07
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Jaffa	X-Fade: you can do it from the breadcrumb trail, but I always double-take	18:07
X-Fade	Yeah, let's see if I can do that.	18:08
X-Fade	It currenly uses a list of plugins. But the total list is no plugin. So..	18:08
Stskeeps	w00t_: you mean you've always been	18:08
X-Fade	Some hacking is probably needed..	18:08
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Stskeeps	GAN800: do you get absolutely spammed by my reconstructedPOC stuff? not sure how much other people see	18:18
GAN800	On Jaiku you mean?	18:23
GAN800	No	18:23
Stskeeps	good	18:23
GAN800	X-Fade, so I have about 900 'useful' edits out of 1200, which will net me 30 karma.	18:23
Stskeeps	was worried cos there was a lot of activity on the channel :)	18:23
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki: any luck with screenshots?	18:24
X-Fade	GAN800: I see 1143 edits for you now.	18:25
Meizirkki_n810	wait	18:25
GAN800	X-Fade, that are ove 50 chars?	18:25
X-Fade	GAN800: Yes.	18:25
Meizirkki_n810	i'll first try to get flash working	18:25
Meizirkki_n810	with maemos gtk:s	18:25
X-Fade	GAN800: Ah and modifier is * 2, btw.	18:26
X-Fade	GAN800: So that will be 66 karma for you..	18:26
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: alright	18:26
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X-Fade	But we can discuss the weight ofcourse...	18:27
GAN800	Leave it for when we overhaul all of the modifiers	18:27
GAN800	I'll poke at dneary's proposal later this weel.	18:28
X-Fade	Yeah, that will be corrected probably..	18:28
bergie	GAN800: Hirvinen is working on that right now	18:28
GAN800	s/weel/week/	18:28
infobot	GAN800 meant: I'll poke at dneary's proposal later this week.	18:28
bergie	so the earlier you can poke it the better	18:28
lcuk	thanks GAN800 :)	18:28
X-Fade	bergie: I think there need to be discussions first, so don't expect quick answers.	18:28
bergie	X-Fade: oh... I though the points there were the things to implement this Sprint	18:29
X-Fade	bergie: No?	18:30
GAN800	bergie, that's only dneary's list.	18:30
X-Fade	bergie: I see karma for applications and detaching thumbs down from karma.	18:30
X-Fade	https://wiki.maemo.org/Karma#Proposed_improvements is still under discussion.	18:31
GAN800	Should probably be pushed to a task	18:32
X-Fade	Yes, I think so.	18:32
bergie	ok... dneary was talking about "detaching thumbs down" and the proposed improvements at same time, so I though they were both to be implemented now	18:34
GAN800	#3767 is valid and can be fixed	18:35
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GAN800	But all the modifiers still need to be discussed.	18:35
crashanddie	GAN800: hey, can you give me some advice?	18:36
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bergie	well, we can play with the modifiers... the recount is only 48h anyway	18:36
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GAN800	crashanddie, depends. :P	18:37
crashanddie	Anyone know of a embedded device (possibly n800 or n810, but other options would be nice) that plays nicely with RFID readers? I saw the video on YouTube about the n800 reading tags, but the n800 is quite hard to get by these days (in large quantities)	18:37
crashanddie	This would be for a medium sized projet (between 30 and 100 units)	18:37
lardman	qwerty12: you about?	18:37
Hirvinen	a question about proposed karma improvements: from the wiki page: "Discussion: Modify discussion points to be scored as 2 * sqrt(# posts)" <- should that be (sign of good_posts + bad_post_modifier * bad_posts) 2 * sqrt(abs(good_posts - bad_post_modifier * bad_posts)) ?	18:37
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qwerty12	lardman, yeah	18:37
crashanddie	Hey Q, wassup bro?	18:38
lardman	qwerty12: which SDK version were you using to compile Qalculate! ?	18:38
GAN800	Find a reader that works reliably with Linux and go from there?	18:38
qwerty12	wag1 crashanddie, I'm good here, how about you? :)	18:38
X-Fade	Hirvinen: thumbs down should not give negative karma. That is all for now..	18:38
qwerty12	lardman, 4.1.1 iirc	18:38
GAN800	WinMob seems like it might require less work to get going, though.	18:38
crashanddie	qwerty12: good good, job and everything :)	18:38
qwerty12	heh, good to hear :)	18:38
Hirvinen	X-Fade: ok	18:39
X-Fade	Hirvinen: Other things need discussion first. And probably pretty heated ;)	18:39
crashanddie	GAN800: well, it's for a student project, and the students are mostly trained to work with Linux (my old school, one of the last bastions of free developers)	18:39
crashanddie	so when I heard about it, I thought about the n800 immediately... Though it's for a university, so I'd like to think in terms of costs as well (and well, a uni has a bit of problems ordering 30 individual units on ebay)	18:40
Hirvinen	X-Fade: Are there parts of karma changes that are agreed upon?	18:40
X-Fade	Hirvinen: No, only this one and that we need karma for applications.	18:41
bergie	Hirvinen: only the one in that bug entry	18:41
lardman	I still think bad posts/bad blogs should reduce that section to 0 (and no lower)	18:41
X-Fade	lardman: Yes, that seems fair.	18:42
GAN800	lardman, per-post zero, not per-section	18:42
X-Fade	Well, yeah if you mess up one time you don't need to be punished too much.	18:42
X-Fade	But if you mess up every time, you will stay at zero.	18:43
mikkov_	aret	18:43
mikkov_	hmm	18:43
GAN800	thoughtfix shouldn't not receive any karma for his timeline and interview posts just because people really hate some of his iPhone and UI posts.	18:43
lardman	GAN800: per section	18:43
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GAN800	per-post	18:43
GAN800	The problem is 'bad' doesn't mean anything	18:43
mikkov_	are those karma lists sorted by comments, favourites etc supposed to work?	18:43
lardman	in which case it doesn't disuade people from posting rubbish	18:44
bergie	mikkov_: yep... but unfortunately sometimes the DB server timeouts	18:44
GAN800	It's often more about the groupthink not agreeing with your opinions	18:44
X-Fade	mikkov_: Try again in the morning :D	18:44
GAN800	lardman, clearly if it really becomes an issue it can be addressed to a poster directly.	18:45
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X-Fade	lardman: We can always remove a bad author from the planet. Which will do the same..	18:46
lardman	yeah, that's not quite what I mean though	18:46
lardman	if people repeatedly post off topic, their overall blogging karma should be reduced	18:46
GAN800	thumbers are too unfair	18:46
lardman	yes, but I don't think people have abused them have they?	18:46
GAN800	But what if they just say interesting, on-topic, but unpopular things?	18:47
GAN800	Sure they have	18:47
GAN800	Hell, I have. ;)	18:47
* lardman still wonders how his ~220 ml posts produce 38 karmas		18:47
X-Fade	Maybe we need a top 10 thumb downers ;)	18:47
X-Fade	Publicly visible..	18:47
lardman	list people who give a thumb either way	18:47
X-Fade	lardman: -community isn't counted yet.	18:47
lardman	X-Fade: yeah, that's not many of my posts though, -dev's the main one	18:48
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X-Fade	Yeah, but the forum import is broken atm.	18:48
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X-Fade	It is not parsing all mails correctly.	18:48
lardman	fair enough	18:48
X-Fade	So your account isn't attachted to all of them..	18:49
lardman	don't worry :)	18:49
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X-Fade	One day...	18:49
Jaffa	lardman: as long as it's sorted before cheap N900s start getting given out, eh? ;-)	18:49
lardman	Jaffa: I'm not too concerned about that either, just that it should be right if it's being done	18:50
X-Fade	Jaffa: I think lardman will be recognized without karma too..	18:50
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Jaffa	X-Fade: one would hope	18:50
X-Fade	bbl, dinner.	18:50
lardman	Don't worry, with all my complaining about karma I';m sure I will be, probably in the wrong direction mind you! ;)	18:51
jagernot	hi im working on a synth (some of u know)..i use esound for sound generation and gdk for ui... result here: http://www.poojyum.com/h	18:52
jagernot	the trouble is i cant update the ui as i play the instrument	18:52
jagernot	i can but audio drops	18:53
Stskeeps	threading maybe?	18:53
jagernot	i am threading the audio	18:53
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lardman	argh, what do I add to sources.list to add the Extras repo?	19:01
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lardman	as you can see, /me would have to do quite a bit of debian packaging learning ;)	19:01
qwerty12	lardman, http://wiki.maemo.org/Uploading_to_Extras#Setting_up_Scratchbox_to_use_the_extras_repository :P	19:02
Meizirkki_n810	Damn, pellet truck arrived... tookna lot of time...	19:02
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qwerty12	lardman, I have to remind myself to update the Build-Depends everytime I add a library...	19:02
lardman	thanks	19:03
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lardman	I just tried to update my diablo SDK install and it's pulling from maemo4.1, rather than maemo4.1.1	19:05
lardman	is that expected behaviour?	19:05
Meizirkki_n810	Stskeeps: i screwed my hasty agn	19:05
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: hehe.. happens	19:06
RST38h	lardman: may depend on your linux	19:06
Meizirkki_n810	i tried to install all packages on /stskeeps and now apt-get naggs about missing depends, and apt-get install -f wants to remove evrything i have installed so far	19:07
RST38h	do check if the repo for your linux flavor contains 4.1.1	19:07
lardman	yep it does	19:08
lardman	http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo4.1.1	19:08
Meizirkki_n810	Stskeeps: when i boot directly to ubuntu mobile it looks pixel-to-pixel same than the screenshot i took when using u-m first time in chroot	19:10
RST38h	try apt-get update then apt-get upgrade and see what keeps it back	19:10
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: good	19:10
Meizirkki_n810	anything i tell apt-get to do, returns with incorrect depends messages	19:11
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: feel free to link scrshot on the jaiku saying this ran like this	19:11
lardman	RST38h: I did that, nothing kept it back, it just doesn't decide to upgrade the url	19:11
RST38h	hmmm	19:12
lardman	RST38h: will try again after my build has finished	19:12
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: apt-get -f install might help	19:12
RST38h	maybe a typo in the sources file?	19:12
Meizirkki_n810	apt-get -f install suggests removing all these u-m and other packages...	19:12
lardman	no, that's what I mean, it lists maemo4.1 in the sources file	19:12
lardman	I'd expected it to change that to maemo4.1.1	19:12
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: yeah.. i suspected the maemo gtk might blow some things up	19:13
RST38h	maybe its just not that smart?:)	19:13
lardman	RST38h: yeah, will have to look at how to upgrade in the correct way eventually :)	19:13
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: give me a pastebin of the errors about apt-geti nstall something	19:14
Meizirkki_n810	ok	19:14
Meizirkki_n810	Stskeeps: V	19:16
Meizirkki_n810	http://pastebin.com/d11a87163	19:16
Meizirkki_n810	sry	19:16
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Meizirkki_n810	I'll try apt-get -f install even if it removes something	19:18
lardman	qwerty12: you have any issues compiling libgmp?	19:18
qwerty12	lardman, I can't remember properly but I think I did	19:19
lardman	rubbish C++	19:19
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: thanks, please edit it on the wiki and make a note in jaiku about this	19:20
Stskeeps	since it's an instance of maemo gtk messing up things	19:20
Stskeeps	(put the exact error somewhere and link to it)	19:21
Stskeeps	pastebins arent forever so	19:21
Meizirkki_n810	ok	19:21
lardman	qwerty12: apparently an issue which has been fixed in GCC4.x.x	19:21
qwerty12	lardman, hrm, i'll set up an cs2008 toolchain later	19:22
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Meizirkki_n810	Stskeeps: these confilicts might be nto about meno GTK, maybe i got errors because i tried to install all packages you have upladed so far, and some of them have missing dependacies?	19:29
Meizirkki_n810	*might to be about maemo...	19:29
Meizirkki_n810	so much typos =P	19:30
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: one of the reasons is probably osso-gnomevfs2	19:31
Stskeeps	that blows up UM definately	19:31
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Stskeeps	stick with the maemo gtk for now instead of everything else	19:31
Stskeeps	you would get a better result	19:31
lardman	qwerty12: were you using the SDK+ sdk by chance?	19:32
lardman	qwerty12: iirc that has gcc 4.x.x on it	19:32
qwerty12	lardman, never...	19:32
lardman	oh, ok	19:32
derf	Getting the cs2008 toolchain up and running wasn't hard.	19:33
derf	It took up 2GB of disk space for no apparent reason, but it wasn't hard.	19:33
lardman	is that GCC 4?	19:33
derf	Yes.	19:33
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: but in any degree any problems you run into are important to microdocument, cos we will definately deal with them later	19:33
lardman	ah, ok	19:33
derf	You need it for the qrcode stuff.	19:33
derf	gcc 3.x has way too many compiler bugs.	19:33
lardman	right-ho	19:33
lardman	yeah	19:34
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derf	Actually, I guess I used cs2007q3, which was also gcc 4.x.	19:35
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lardman	I may as well use OE to build it then really	19:36
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Meizirkki_n810	ok	19:38
lardman	hmm, or not, doesn't appear to be in the metadata	19:42
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GAN800	Can anybody with some language experience look over the list of categories and start generating l10n?	19:48
GAN800	I have a feeling Nokia may take forever to do the translation.	19:48
lardman	stick them on the wiki and let people suggest I suggest	19:48
Meizirkki	Stskeeps: done	19:49
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lardman	GAN800: can we add an extra section to the wiki page with a table of names + column for each translation?	19:52
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Jaffa	lardman: how's your mediawiki syntax? ;-)	19:56
Jaffa	Bah, going to be another night tonight whe re I don't get home until gone 11pm	19:57
lardman	not very good, and I don';t have the email to hand either	19:57
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lardman	Jaffa: I've just had two nights where I did get home, but just kept on going till I went to bed	19:57
lardman	s/going/working	19:57
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Jaffa	doh	19:58
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* Jaffa better damn well get a payrise (hmm) and a promotion (yay, more perks) on Saturday... or else		19:58
gomiam	(Southpark mode) "or else?" Jaffa: "Exactly!"	19:59
gomiam	;-)	19:59
lardman	is that where "perk"=="working late more often"? ;)	20:00
gomiam	lardman: that depends on your home situation :-)	20:01
Meizirkki	Stskeeps: are you going to switch to armv6el release soon? =)	20:02
lardman	gomiam: :)	20:02
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki: when i get the installer and repo going, yeah	20:03
Stskeeps	but the issue is that i cross-compile on a qemu that doesnt seem to like vfp, oddly enough	20:03
Meizirkki	ok	20:03
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GAN800	lardman, the table's on the wiki.	20:03
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lardman	Stskeeps: or have you passed an -mcpu flag too?	20:04
lardman	GAN800: ok	20:05
Stskeeps	lardman: debootstrap died so :P	20:05
GAN800	Jaffa, I suspect we'll want an English l10n before any others.	20:05
Stskeeps	wasn't really much to do to get a rootstrap	20:05
Stskeeps	to chroot into	20:05
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ron1n	anyone try to get armedslack on an internet tablet?	20:07
lardman	GAN800: so you ok with my adding a table with multiple rows to that page then? (assuming I can work out how of course...)	20:08
Stskeeps	ron1n: there was a blog of some guy going insane over it..	20:08
Stskeeps	or was that gentoo..	20:08
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GAN800	lardman, https://wiki.maem.org/Task:Package_categories#Translations	20:09
lardman	cool	20:10
Stskeeps	ron1n: think most active alternative OS'es are mamona, deblet, and this strange thing we're doing in here	20:11
GAN800	Stskeeps, Dr. Frankenstein	20:11
ron1n	Stskeeps, thanks	20:11
Stskeeps	GAN800: Maemo "Frankenstein"	20:11
Stskeeps	i like that	20:11
Stskeeps	:P	20:11
Stskeeps	.. but i'm more of a dr jekyll and mr hyde really	20:12
Stskeeps	:P	20:12
Meizirkki	Stskeeps: where can i get libdebletflashplayer.so?	20:12
GAN800	Can somebody provide a quick translation for that table?	20:13
Jaffa	lardman: Company car or car allowance.	20:14
lardman	right, I added columns	20:14
lardman	Jaffa: ah, not so bad then	20:14
* Jaffa has his eye on a nice shiny new fast VW Scirocco.		20:14
lardman	Aston Martin?	20:14
Jaffa	Doubtful	20:14
lardman	:D	20:14
Stskeeps	Programming and not Development? :P	20:14
Jaffa	GAN800: I think I've been persuaded of "Sound & Video" for user/multimedia.	20:15
lardman	Development has many menaings	20:15
Jaffa	Indeed.	20:15
Stskeeps	mm	20:15
* lardman is happy with Multimedia, it's well known		20:15
Jaffa	lardman: Fair enough. I'm equally happy with either.	20:15
GAN800	Jaffa, change it if you want. ;)	20:15
Jaffa	GAN800: was trying to build consensus ;)	20:15
* GAN800 has no opinion		20:15
Stskeeps	and Desktop is ambigious, what does it cover?	20:16
Stskeeps	it would be easier to translate if the justifications for the name was there	20:16
Stskeeps	:P	20:16
* Jaffa is ambivalent. And lardman is pro "Multimedia". So I'm fine.		20:16
Jaffa	Stskeeps: scroll up about 400 px ;-p	20:16
lardman	Stskeeps: stuff to go on the desktop - applets	20:16
Stskeeps	ar	20:16
GAN800	Desktop is applets	20:16
GAN800	Interestingly Apple just has 'Music'	20:17
GAN800	and just 'Navigation' for the location stuff.	20:17
* Stskeeps dislikes the "desktop" metafor for a tablet home screen for some reason, but that's a personal		20:18
lardman	GAN800: do you want to reply to Marius' email to ask people to add their translations here? If I reply I'll lose the threading as I don't have the original here	20:18
* GAN800 pulls up gmail		20:18
* lardman wonders who will do the All and Other translations?		20:19
Stskeeps	why user/development and then Programming?	20:19
Stskeeps	that's slightly confusing :P	20:19
lardman	Stskeeps: just 'cos	20:19
lardman	Stskeeps: you'll never see the user/development unless you develop; if you're an end user it's ambigous	20:20
GAN800	Packagers know what 'development' is	20:20
lardman	getting a company car?	20:20
ron1n	why do debian packages from ARM have arm in the package name, and deblet packages have armel in the package name?	20:21
Stskeeps	ron1n: debian has armel too	20:21
Stskeeps	'arm' is getting taken out the back and shot eventually afaik	20:21
ron1n	Stskeeps, is armel significantly different from arm?	20:22
Stskeeps	ABI-wise afaik	20:22
Stskeeps	sec	20:22
Stskeeps	gotta finish this translation first	20:22
ron1n	mhmm	20:22
lardman	ron1n: http://wiki.debian.org/ArmEabiPort	20:23
ron1n	lardman, thanks	20:23
lardman	np	20:23
Meizirkki	ronln: arm packages in debian repos are for armv3 and they don't work on tablets	20:23
ron1n	I'm really taking intrest in getting uladulteraded slackware (armedslack as I hear is) on a tablet	20:24
lardman	they used to work on the 770 though before the abi change	20:24
ron1n	Meizirkki, I see	20:24
ron1n	lardman, I remember that from when I still had my 770, thats why I'm a bit confused	20:24
lardman	yeah, have a read of that url, should explain it all - eabi is far better for all except keeping compatible	20:25
ron1n	the TI omap series is just the processor that is used with the eabi arch, correct?	20:25
lardman	especially good for the n8x0 as it moved to vfp as default fp format, away from the awful fpa	20:25
* Stskeeps contributes a danish translation for sections		20:25
Stskeeps	even though they probably need verification	20:26
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lardman	ron1n: yes, it could run the old abi	20:26
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lardman	Stskeeps: cool, thanks	20:26
ron1n	so eabi is the new evolution in arm, got it	20:27
ron1n	I just need to see if armedslack is eabi ready	20:27
* lardman heads to grab a beer while cln compiles....		20:27
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GAN800	lardman, replied.	20:28
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Stskeeps	ron1n: if you want to get it running on tablet, use the deblet boot basics and friends scripts, they're all open source and in svn on deblet home page	20:30
Stskeeps	will save you a lot of time and headache	20:30
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Stskeeps	but, you will probably run into same problem as everyone else - power usage	20:31
rafiks	got error installing deblet installer	20:31
Stskeeps	not impossible	20:31
Stskeeps	but which?	20:31
rafiks	unable to installs	20:31
Stskeeps	that's a bit vague :P	20:32
rafiks	,,.	20:32
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rafiks	is te	20:32
* Stskeeps goes back to building stuff		20:32
rafiks	The	20:32
rafiks	is there a bug on the package?	20:33
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rafiks	I have an n800 w/os2008..	20:34
Stskeeps	do you have extras enabled?	20:34
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Stskeeps	and i dunno if there's a bug.. look in application manager log	20:34
rafiks	yes,i think	20:34
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: my bootstrap.tar.gz seriously wrote a debootstrap on top of meamo? :P	20:36
Stskeeps	(reading bug reports)	20:36
Meizirkki_n810	i think so, but i am not sure	20:36
Stskeeps	k	20:37
Meizirkki_n810	installer gave some error, then i wanted to try debootstrapping manuallu	20:38
Meizirkki_n810	but the terminal has gone crazy	20:38
rafiks	just looked @ d log,apparently it doesn't like easy deb package,are this 2 the same?	20:38
Stskeeps	no, but it may conflict heavily	20:39
Meizirkki_n810	Stskeeps, i am sure it was the installer..	20:39
Stskeeps	can you copy-paste the log to me, rafiks?	20:39
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: alright, :P	20:39
Stskeeps	that was probably that night i was drunk and coding on it..	20:39
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rafiks	Stskeeps: wiil do .	20:41
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MakeGho	oh my... Fennec is so heavy and slow that it's not a clever choice, at least yet.	20:44
Meizirkki	Stskeeps: can you give me direct link to libdebletflashplayer.so I did not find it from trunk	20:45
Stskeeps	http://trac.tspre.org/projects/deblet/export/6/trunk/nit-base-packages/debian-flashplayer/usr/lib/browser/plugins/libdebianflashplayer.so	20:46
Meizirkki	thanks	20:46
Meizirkki	i was looking from the wrong place :)	20:47
GAN800	MakeGho, it's just barely an alpha release.	20:47
Stskeeps	try Tear or something instead, MakeGho	20:47
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MakeGho	GAN800: I know :) But I'm wondering because some sources said it to be "six times faster"	20:50
rafiks	Stskeeps: http://pastebin.com/m6de839fa	20:50
GAN800	MakeGho, that was only one js benchmael	20:50
GAN800	s/mael/marl	20:50
GAN800	marj	20:50
GAN800	good lord	20:50
GAN800	mark	20:51
MakeGho	oh ok	20:51
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GAN800	MakeGho, and that's only because it's based on a newer release of Firefox	20:51
MakeGho	yup	20:51
GAN800	MicroB will get those js improvements eventually, too.	20:51
Stskeeps	rafiks: you should poke qole about that.. we seemingily ended up using same name for our icon	20:53
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MakeGho	Stskeeps: What's this thing you're refering to? I can't succeed to find anything useful.	20:54
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Stskeeps	MakeGho: http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24293&highlight=tear	20:55
rafiks	Stskeeps: qole's not here is he?	20:55
Stskeeps	rafiks: nop, he's on itt, solution is uninstall easy debian for you, it's unintentional we share same icon filename and path..	20:56
ron1n	does the ARM kernel have its own home like the x86 kernel resides at kernel.org?	20:58
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rafiks	Stskeeps: thanks..will try that.	20:59
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\|\|cw	ron1n: kernel.org is THE home for all officially supported arch's	21:05
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\|\|cw	ron1n: every platform tends to have their own patches that are not supported by kernel.org though	21:06
ron1n	\|\|cw, I found the ppc and ps3 ports, hunting for the arm port still	21:06
ron1n	\|\|cw, I see	21:06
\|\|cw	ppc is arm....	21:06
Stskeeps	wtf. :P	21:06
\|\|cw	well, in source	21:06
Stskeeps	Meizirkki: http://trac.tspre.org/mrrepo/	21:07
\|\|cw	well, it's all just source anyway	21:07
ron1n	I have a lot to learn =P	21:07
\|\|cw	and there are multiple types of arm	21:07
ron1n	I am use=Pd to x86 and that is about it	21:07
\|\|cw	ppc being one of them	21:07
Meizirkki	Stskeeps: You got it up! =P	21:07
Meizirkki	finally	21:07
ron1n	I am used to x86 and thats about it =P***	21:07
\|\|cw	sure... except now x86 is 2 arch's too, with x86-64	21:07
ron1n	yeah, but the 32 bit vs 64bit is the only difference	21:08
ron1n	while looking at ppc and arm, they seem to be very different	21:08
* Meizirkki is adding mr-repo to his sources.list		21:09
ron1n	I had no idea they derive from the same source	21:09
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki: codename is 'reconstructed' or 'testing', main, non-free and contrib	21:10
Stskeeps	i'll be adding boot packages later tonight	21:10
Meizirkki	ok	21:10
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Stskeeps	so we can install easily	21:12
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Stskeeps	wb	21:14
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Meizirkki	Ubuntu-mobile starts now when i type startx :)	21:17
Stskeeps	woop	21:18
Stskeeps	take a pic, even though it's crap quality	21:18
Stskeeps	it's a nice showoff	21:18
Meizirkki	what about crap quality 3gp video	21:19
Meizirkki	=P	21:19
Stskeeps	pic is better thancrap quality 3gp :P	21:19
* ron1n says this topic is relative to his intrests		21:19
Meizirkki	ookay	21:20
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Meizirkki	i'll take both :)	21:20
Stskeeps	ron1n: we're doing a proof of concept of http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Reconstructed	21:20
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ron1n	Stskeeps, the deblet project uses jaiky instead of twitter!? =P	21:29
* ron1n is a big twitter fan		21:29
ron1n	jaiku*	21:29
ron1n	this is awesome, this is what I expected to see when I first purchased my 770 early 2006	21:31
ron1n	I mean, a little app here or a little app there is cool and all, but I really wanted to see the open source community really "run with" the internet tablets	21:32
Stskeeps	ron1n: well this is just a offshoot of the deblet experiences	21:32
* RST38h moos evilly		21:32
ron1n	Stskeeps, I understand, I'm speaking of my recent findings with maemo in general	21:33
Stskeeps	and not a nokia project, but something we in community try to do to somewhat prove to nokia this really ought to be the way to go :P	21:33
ron1n	thats what I really wanted to see from the begining	21:33
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RST38h	Sts: Looking at your maemo reconstructed wiki page, "or installing a VMware appliance for non-Linux users" is wrong	21:34
RST38h	Sts: it should be a native windows sdk coming in the .msi package	21:34
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ron1n	Nokia is a big company. Big companies like open source, but to a point it just isn't practical. Blobs exist everywhere with in OS200x	21:35
Stskeeps	ron1n: it's actually not that bad when you look closer	21:35
RST38h	Sts: Scratch any mentions of eclipse - I don't think anybody but java diehards use this beast	21:35
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Stskeeps	RST38h: yet it seems to be used for a variety of different langs	21:35
Stskeeps	RST38h: and the eclipse/etc is input from other sources in this case :P	21:36
ron1n	Stskeeps, when I checked OS2006 out, it was bad. Everything from the wireless, to low level touch screen stuff was a blob	21:36
RST38h	Sts: it supports different languages	21:36
RST38h	Sts: But do try to use Eclipse for serious development and you will see why it is not worth the effort	21:37
Stskeeps	RST38h: i'm a bit of a vim/make person	21:37
Stskeeps	:P	21:37
Stskeeps	so i'm not the best to argue in this area	21:37
RST38h	Slow, unstable, has non-standard UI - typical java app	21:37
ron1n	Kdevelope? works nicely	21:37
RST38h	Sts: pico/make here	21:37
Stskeeps	ick pico	21:37
ron1n	RST38h, pico is the way to go for plaintext all the way	21:37
Stskeeps	:P	21:37
* Stskeeps is a joe or vim guy		21:38
Stskeeps	depending on what i need to do	21:38
RST38h	joe is probably ok, not much different from pico	21:38
Stskeeps	i grew up on the polypascal editor so it kinda went from there..	21:38
Stskeeps	same shortcut	21:38
ron1n	I'm a firm believer in optionally reading the man page, I really don't feel like flipping through the mah an appn page just to get up and running wit	21:38
Stskeeps	s	21:38
* qwerty12_N800 (despite only knowing the basics) is a vim fan :p		21:38
ron1n	qwerty12_N800, vimtutor is the way to go	21:39
ron1n	I mean to use it, I just haven't found the time	21:39
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RST38h	anything that does not support arrow keys out of the box is not a real text editor	21:39
ron1n	RST38h, uses something similar	21:39
qwerty12_N800	ron1n, yeah... I just can't bring myself to run it :/	21:40
RST38h	no, "something similar" won't do	21:40
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RST38h	If arrow keys do not work, I am not using it	21:40
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: if you get bored.. see if you can compile kernel-diablo natively	21:57
Meizirkki_n810	are you kidding?	21:57
Stskeeps	i said if you got bored ;)	21:57
GAN800	RST38h, can you do an ru_RU translation for https://wiki.maem.org/Task:Package_categories#Translations ?	21:58
Meizirkki_n810	okay, it is the next thing i will try :)	21:58
RST38h	GAN: Depends on how much work it is	21:58
Meizirkki_n810	that kernel tihng	21:58
Meizirkki_n810	*thing	21:58
RST38h	if it is just typing a text file then yes	21:59
GAN800	12 categories	21:59
Meizirkki_n810	now i am fighting with ubuntu-mobile =)	21:59
GAN800	Just stick them on the wiki, or send them to me and I'll stick them there.	21:59
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RST38h	Working.	22:00
lcuk	why does os2007 do different stuff and try to guess if i use finger or stylus?	22:00
GAN800	Because that's the way it was programmed	22:00
GAN800	It was dropped for OS2008 because it really didn't work very well.	22:00
lcuk	yeah i can tell	22:00
lcuk	good idea in principle	22:01
* lcuk now sees what people meant about stylus friendly		22:01
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mlpug	i attach n810 with usb to computer. /media/disk pops up with some subdirectories. Where are these in n810 filesystem?	22:02
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: actually nm	22:03
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Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: i'll do that on my own, as it is deadly :P	22:03
Meizirkki_n810	ok	22:04
mlpug	I mean if I run e.g. cp /home/mlpug/file.avi /media/disk where in n810 I can find that file.avi?	22:04
qwerty12_N800	Stskeeps, hmm, compiling the kernel on n800? Do you plan to do that after you've taken drugs? :P	22:06
milhouse	like flashing, recompiling the kernel on the n800 should always be done with the charger connected...	22:06
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Stskeeps	qwerty12_N800: no, vodka!	22:07
RST38h	GAN: Ready	22:07
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qwerty12_N800	Stskeeps, heh...	22:07
Veggen	Well. We did compile kernel back in the days when we had 386/25 w/4 MB memory, too...	22:07
derf	The kernel was a lot smaller back then.	22:08
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RST38h	1MB kernel was considered huge	22:08
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derf	SLOC-wise, too.	22:09
GAN800	RST38h, I see it on the wiki. Excellent, thank you! :)	22:09
RST38h	FreeBSD had 600kB..1MB kernels	22:09
GAN800	Hi, milhouse. :)	22:09
milhouse	hi GAN	22:09
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Veggen	derf: true. But the n810 has more memory and is faster ;)	22:10
RST38h	OSF/1 had a huge 10MB kernel that was actually a Mach "microkernel" + crap	22:10
qwerty12_N800	milhouse, hrm, want to update your schematics folder? ;)	22:10
milhouse	we got a new one?	22:10
qwerty12_N800	milhouse, i found n810 ones and some other goodies a while back...	22:10
milhouse	sure - you got the url?	22:11
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GAN800	Somebody should package up avahi for Extras so it doesn't need to be coerced into working.	22:18
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qwerty12_N800	GAN800, Bug pH5 :P	22:25
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qwerty12_N800	according to summary, he's the uploader	22:26
sjgadsby	Why am I bothering to argue with allnameswereout?	22:26
GAN800	Imma bug qwerty12	22:26
Stskeeps	sjgadsby: the kind of person that's kinda like fly paper?	22:27
GAN800	sjgadsby, S'okay, it's hard to avoid	22:27
GAN800	I still want to know his angle	22:27
* lcuk needs to update to 2008, its all strange in here		22:28
sjgadsby	He appears to be omniscient and infallible.	22:29
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GAN800	Clearly	22:29
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lcuk	hiya sjgadsby	22:29
GAN800	He's an intellectual	22:29
sjgadsby	HiHi, lcuk.	22:29
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Meizirkki_n810	with telnet, i would be able to start apps in ubuntu-mobile-desktop...	22:30
qwerty12_N800	lardman\|afk, compiled gmp with cs2008 toolchain, gcc went fine, libtool did not...	22:31
lcuk	do you think tim could become an opensismus trainee? (i really hope he gets sorted)	22:32
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: scrshots!	22:32
qwerty12_N800	lardman\|afk, attempted to compile rather :)	22:32
Meizirkki_n810	they look exsactly same that those i already have in picasaweb	22:33
Meizirkki_n810	okay, i'll upload some more :)	22:33
GAN800	lcuk, well, he's not in Berlin and he' waaaaaay overqualified.	22:34
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lcuk	yeah i know gan, it bites	22:35
Meizirkki_n810	Stskeeps: Sould i uplodad em somewhere that is possible for anybody to download?	22:35
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qwerty12_N800	GAN800, seen pybattery? if there should be something that takes the name of adv-power, it's that...	22:36
Stskeeps	Meizirkki_n810: picasa is fine i think	22:37
Meizirkki_n810	ok	22:37
milhouse	oh dear - what's going on here? Open this link on Jaaksi's site (http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2008/10/few-thoughs-on-openness.html) then click the link to Jaffa's "ideas and opinions" and get a 403 because Jaaksi is a spammer... :)	22:39
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lcuk	why the heck did they remove the layout mode from 2007?	22:40
milhouse	lcuk: to annoy you (probably)	22:41
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Stskeeps	lcuk: layout mode?	22:41
* lcuk has never run os2007 before		22:41
lcuk	desktop applets	22:41
lcuk	locked unless in layout mode	22:41
Stskeeps	ah	22:41
milhouse	Desktop applets that couldn't be locked in place was a genius feature	22:42
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, but at least they were able to be locked :)	22:42
milhouse	s/was/is/	22:42
infobot	milhouse meant: Desktop applets that couldn't be locked in place is a genius feature	22:42
lcuk	qwerty12_N800, thats the point, why remove the feature	22:42
* lcuk shakes head lol		22:42
Stskeeps	"we don't need no stinkin' layout mode when we have lock touch screen and keys!"	22:42
* lcuk is forever movin his clock around		22:43
milhouse	stskeeps - on the contrary, because it IS a touchscreen is exactly why you need them locked down! :) too many times i've messed up the desktop just picking up/putting down the n8x0... takes about 5 minutes to get everything back to normal 'cos the snap to grid is so shit	22:43
Stskeeps	milhouse: i was being mildly sarcastic, i want to lock mine too, bloody irritating "feature"	22:44
qwerty12_N800	a free shank to whoever makes a patch for hildon-desktop to add an option to lock applets!	22:44
Stskeeps	:P	22:44
GAN800	Fremantle.	22:44
milhouse	stskeeps: sorry thought you were a nokia drone :)	22:44
Stskeeps	oi, i take offense to that :(	22:45
qwerty12_N800	someone "frontport" the relevant code from maemo-af-desktop into hildon-desktop :p	22:45
milhouse	stskeeps: hehe, sorry :)	22:45
GAN800	milhouse, you've been away too long. ;)	22:46
GAN800	See Maemo Reconstructed. :)	22:46
milhouse	yah, just been monitoring bugzilla mostly	22:46
milhouse	GAN800: Again!	22:47
milhouse	GAN800: It's like rearangging deckchairs on the Titanic...	22:47
milhouse	:(	22:47
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milhouse	GAN: No offence to you and the guys who are busting a gut for Nokia, but well you know how it is...	22:48
milhouse	I shall read the Wiki entry though	22:49
* Stskeeps personally isn't, - if nokia sees potential in this stuff, we'll have a kickass maemo future, if not, we have a kickass maemo alternative :P		22:49
GAN800	milhouse, we're moving in a positive direction these days.	22:49
milhouse	I do wonder sometimes when I read some of the "WONTFIX" and "RESOLVED" bugs in bugzilla	22:50
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GAN800	Well, WONTFIXing recently is more of a Diablo -> Fremantle issue	22:51
GAN800	A LOT of platform stuff is changing in Diablo	22:51
GAN800	s/Diablo/Fremantle/	22:51
infobot	GAN800 meant: A LOT of platform stuff is changing in Fremantle	22:51
milhouse	Maybe, the ones that have got my goat the last few days are the GPS one and the English (Canada) bug... I mean how hard would it be to support English (Canada)? I like Canada.	22:51
milhouse	:)	22:51
GAN800	Anyway, I'm not busting a gut for Nokia	22:51
GAN800	I'm busting a gut for the community.	22:52
milhouse	GAN: There's always lots of platform changes with every big release, that seems to be part of the problem...	22:52
GAN800	Nah, these are good.	22:52
milhouse	Having said that, I look at 2008 and compare it to 2005 and I don't see a huge amount of change in 3 years.... most of it is under the cover, still the same old sh1tty UI and application bugs...	22:53
milhouse	GAN: I hope you are right, I really do.	22:53
GAN800	Fremantle is a brand new UI direction	22:53
milhouse	GAN: I really appreciate your gut busting :)	22:53
GAN800	Trust me, I'm just as jaded, tired and cynical as you and I'm feeling good about things.	22:54
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milhouse	GAN: I know, that means many of the old bugs will be "WONTFIX"'d (good) but new ones will emerge that will be ignored for 3+ years until the next major UI redesign etc. It's this attitude which must be changed... somehow.	22:54
Stskeeps	qwerty12_N800: you ever tried bashing your head in with the source package for kernel-diablo-modules-extra_2.6.21-200829maemo1_all.deb and such?	22:54
GAN800	milhouse, thing is, though, we're getting close to that step 5	22:55
milhouse	GAN: I got a developer N810 which makes me feel guilty about slating Maemo so next time I'll pay full whack for a N900 and have a clear conscience. :)	22:55
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Meizirkki_n810	Stskeeps: There are some photos: http://picasaweb.google.com/mail.deweb/MaemoReconstructed# They are VERY crappy quality. I'll continue playing with this tomorrow, it is 22.50 here.	22:55
Stskeeps	nini, Meizirkki_n810	22:56
qwerty12_N800	Stskeeps, nah. just compiled the kernel the "traditional" way, go on to ssu repo and replace their kernel image in the deb with mine	22:56
Meizirkki_n810	=)	22:56
milhouse	GAN: Is there a Step 6?	22:56
Stskeeps	and what meiz just posted is ubuntu mobile on a n810	22:56
Stskeeps	booting	22:56
Stskeeps	very blurry pics	22:56
lcuk	milhouse, harmattan	22:57
GAN800	milhouse, pressumably	22:57
Meizirkki_n810	There are better quality pics in n810 album, but they are from chroot	22:57
milhouse	Ah yes...	22:57
GAN800	No	22:57
GAN800	lcuk, Fremantle is step4	22:57
lcuk	no?	22:57
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lcuk	fremantle is maemo 5 is it not?	22:58
milhouse	it is	22:58
GAN800	Harmattan is either 4.1 or 5	22:58
GAN800	step	22:58
milhouse	but I think the N810 was step 3.5 of 5 wasn't it?	22:58
milhouse	or something like that...	22:58
GAN800	770, N800, N810, N900, Nxxx	22:58
lcuk	what about the w	22:59
milhouse	Will be interesting to see if Nokia/Maemo manage to push out regular, working Freemantle updates AND take on board the feedback and fix the bugs prior to release. That would be a sign of major progress.	22:59
milhouse	sorry, I meant alphas not updates	22:59
GAN800	lcuk, N810W is not a step.	23:00
lcuk	that also depends on if we test them properly	23:01
milhouse	lcuk: if you mean file quality bug reports, yep couldn't agree more.	23:01
GAN800	milhouse, that's in the discussion phase	23:01
GAN800	The alpha sdk is coming out next month.	23:01
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GAN800	Quim and Marius were talking an unstable distribution	23:01
milhouse	Hopefully not like Sardine	23:02
bergie	IIRC they considered sardine a failure and said they will do better this time	23:02
lcuk	depends where it sits in the community	23:02
bergie	but don't remember who said that	23:02
milhouse	bergie: that would be a fair assesment, cheers	23:03
lcuk	if it stays ahead of stable branch it will work	23:03
* Stskeeps 's vision is the maemo basics in community hands and nokia basing firmware on top of it, and contracting companies to contribute to the base maemo and such		23:04
Stskeeps	:P	23:04
GAN800	milhouse, browse around the -developers archives a bit.	23:04
milhouse	I must admit I've got several hundred unread -developers messages :)	23:05
milhouse	Must catchup eventually - last time I checked it Darius was in the process of get blackballed. :)	23:05
GAN800	Worth poking through	23:05
lcuk	milhouse, thats some bad lag	23:05
milhouse	s/get/getting/	23:05
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milhouse	qwerty: All schematic files now uploaded to http://nmacleod.com/nokia/schematics - thanks! :)	23:08
RST38h	~curse BSCIS and each of its many departments	23:08
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qwerty12_N800	milhouse, cool :)	23:11
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qwerty12_N800	~stab watchdog	23:12
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Stskeeps	hm, pybattery in extras?	23:14
Stskeeps	can't seem to find a screenshot or link	23:14
qwerty12_N800	Stskeeps, http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=241131	23:15
GAN800	He seems to have dropped the link.	23:15
Stskeeps	mmk	23:15
qwerty12_N800	an upgrade? hopeful	23:15
Stskeeps	does it use HAL or similar to kcbatt?	23:15
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RST38h	Yes, but is it in Python?	23:17
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Stskeeps	pybattery kinda gives that off	23:17
RST38h	No go then...	23:17
qwerty12_N800	Stskeeps, hal	23:17
Stskeeps	(.. morbid curiousity), besides showing stuff like advanced backlight and a battery applet in maemo-r wouldn't be that bad	23:17
Stskeeps	as a demonstrator it's silly to close source stuff like that	23:17
Stskeeps	qwerty12_N800: if you ever want to compile the source package i spoke of, remove HOST_CC=host-cc or something in the package rules, it breaks everything	23:18
milhouse	Anyone know if Freemantle will support remote SIM ?	23:19
qwerty12_N800	Stskeeps, ah, thanks. btw: http://i38.tinypic.com/zjjrd0.png	23:19
milhouse	(Bluetooth Profile)	23:19
milhouse	ermm... OK maybe that should be Freemantle on N900	23:20
RST38h	qwerty: coool	23:20
Stskeeps	qwerty12_N800: quite intruging	23:20
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RST38h	qwerty: now, if it only were in C...	23:20
Stskeeps	get on recoding it	23:20
Stskeeps	:P	23:20
milhouse	Remote SIM would avoid me having to get a second mobile network contract	23:20
GAN800	Fremantle. :p	23:20
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Stskeeps	manatee?	23:21
GAN800	milhouse, we're way too far off to know something like that.	23:21
milhouse	Hopefully someone/somewhere has given it some thought... :)	23:21
milhouse	Not too many people will be keen on getting a second airtime contract	23:21
GAN800	Pressumably, but they're shuttered up in Nokia HQ	23:21
* RST38h isn't very keen on getting the first airtime contract either		23:22
milhouse	hehe - true	23:22
RST38h	why should I make a contract with these guys? isn't money enough?	23:22
milhouse	Seemingly not... although if you buy a subsidised phone it's fair enough to have a contract otherwise you could run off with the phone...	23:23
* RST38h isn't buying subsidized phones. I can still pay for my gadgets, thanks =)		23:23
milhouse	I'm on a SIM-only "contract" which means the contract is pretty pointless	23:23
milhouse	If all you want is airtime then I suppose there's always Pay as you go - no contract required	23:24
RST38h	Is there anything else to want from these guys?	23:24
milhouse	LOL	23:25
RST38h	Ringtones for $3 a pop?	23:25
RST38h	SMS messages for $.15 when I can just as well run ICQ client?	23:25
milhouse	Data pipes... one day they'll learn that's all they are...	23:25
RST38h	You can't effectively milk clients with a data pipe	23:26
milhouse	sure you can - ask T-Mobile/Google	23:26
milhouse	apparently they charge you for IM messages sent with any client other than GoogleTalk	23:27
Stskeeps	heh, android "rm -rf /"	23:27
RST38h	milhouse: And how do they count?	23:27
milhouse	no idea	23:27
RST38h	Let us say I run Slick and connect to an ICQ server. How is my traffic different from other traffic?	23:27
`0660	that should be pretty easy to get around :)	23:27
Stskeeps	ssl :P	23:28
milhouse	badly, judging by my last bill from O2 which made me leave rather than get stung with another bill for services I never used...	23:28
RST38h	you have got a Googlephone? =)	23:28
milhouse	RST - I'm sure some people will get around it, most normal people may not	23:28
RST38h	most "normal people" will send SMS messages for 4.15	23:31
`0660	http://psi-im.org/wiki/Gateway	23:31
milhouse	4.15? A bargain! ;)	23:31
RST38h	s/4/$/	23:31
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lcuk	the principle thing i want from my service provider is reliability	23:32
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RST38h	which means you are likely to buy service from a traditional phone company (Verizon in US, MTS in Russia)	23:33
milhouse	I just want my service provider to stay out of my face - I don't want to know they are there	23:33
lcuk	no way! im not payin long distance, ill find a provider in the UK ;)	23:33
RST38h	milhouse: but how are they gonna develop your brand loyalty? :)	23:34
Sargun	Why would you guys say the community has not come up with an alternative vector mapping program?	23:34
lcuk	cos vectors are hard	23:34
RST38h	lcuk: But surely, your landline phone monopolists also provides cellular service?	23:34
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milhouse	RST: Bugger loyalty! I'm on SIM only for a reason!!	23:34
RST38h	Sargun: Where would you get vector map data?	23:34
Sargun	RST38h, OSM.	23:35
lcuk	RST38h, im pullin ur leg a bit, yeah theres reliable cell phone providers here	23:35
GAN800	Sargun, um? Navit? Roadmap?	23:35
RST38h	Sargun: There is already a program for that called Navit. Or you can use Roadmap	23:35
Sargun	ah	23:35
Sargun	Let me try them	23:35
RST38h	But the OSM data is rather crappy	23:35
lcuk	depends on location	23:35
lcuk	if its crap near you walk around with gps for a while	23:36
milhouse	RST: What landline monopolists, the phone exchanges have been open for several years now - literally anyone can provide a service (voice and/or data)	23:36
RST38h	Ok, to correct myself, most locations I really need are complete crap in OSM	23:36
lcuk	it will get better ;)	23:36
lcuk	RST38h, just drive where you need to go a few times and then a few weeks later the data will be available for you to use	23:36
lcuk	hope you dont need directions today	23:36
RST38h	milhouse: Yes, but only landline monopolist has enough locations throughout the area to saturate it with cell transceivers	23:36
RST38h	lcuk: Yea, the open source principle - "if you need something, do it yourself!"	23:37
Sargun	Where does navit/roadmap get its vector data?	23:37
RST38h	milhouse: The rest will have to negotiate tower space with all the property owners	23:37
milhouse	RST: Few companies are able to make the kind of investment that operating a cellular network requires, we've got 4 or 5 companies in the UK all competing and squabbling over the same locations...	23:38
RST38h	Sargun: OSM.	23:38
Sargun	RST38h, ah.	23:38
RST38h	milhouse: Let me show you an example	23:38
milhouse	RST: And none of them are British Telecom which used to be (and possibly still is from a backhaul perspective) the landline monopolist	23:38
Sargun	RST38h, Do you guys think people would pay $40-50 + map fee for Teleatlas or Navteq?	23:38
lcuk	whats performance of navit like on the n8x0?	23:38
RST38h	milhouse: Take east coast US. Its landlines are served by Verizon, a monopolist	23:38
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RST38h	Sargun: No.	23:39
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Sargun	rsalveti, Why would you say that?	23:39
milhouse	RST: Sorry, I was talking about the UK - I have little idea how the US operates, I assumed it was open	23:39
Sargun	err, RST38h	23:39
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RST38h	milhouse: There are (or were) several cell providers: AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile, Verizon, etc	23:39
RST38h	milhouse: Guess who has the best coverage ;)	23:39
lcuk	milhouse, didnt o2 start as the mobile arm of bt?	23:39
milhouse	LCUK: It did, got flogged off to the Spanish	23:40
RST38h	milhouse: Open or not, but you can't MAKE Verizon place your cell transmitter onto their tower	23:40
qwerty12_N800	lcuk, yeah... cellnet > bt cellnet > o2	23:40
RST38h	You have to pay for that	23:40
milhouse	RST: Why can't the other companies put up their own towers? That's what happens here although it would make more sense to share towers	23:41
RST38h	milhouse: You do not place tower in the air. It stands at some property. Or your transmitter gets mounted on a building.	23:41
milhouse	RST: Cell towers are prime assets - why should Verizon make space for a competitor?	23:41
RST38h	milhouse: And of course, people always complain about these	23:41
RST38h	milhouse:right. and it does not.	23:42
milhouse	RST: Yes, same here - usually on top of tall buildings.	23:42
milhouse	RST: Getting a cell tower is like being given the permission to print money.	23:42
RST38h	milhouse: That is why Verizon has the best coverage - it has historically owned a lot of pieces of land	23:42
RST38h	milhouse: It has got landline exchanges throughout the region and being a monopolist it can easily make deals that other companies can't	23:43
RST38h	Like placing stations in DC subway	23:43
milhouse	RST: In the UK that was BT (O2) but they didn't site their cell towers optimally, whereas Vodafone did the mathematics to work out the optimal coverage and bought the rights to site their towers in the best locations using the least number of towers and still had a better network than O2...	23:43
RST38h	milhouse: Same stuff with MTS in Moscow. And I am pretty sure T-Mobile enjoys the same privileges in Germany	23:44
RST38h	milhouse: just means BT management was stupid	23:44
milhouse	RST: Yep	23:45
milhouse	RST: But Vodafone were smart, and beat BT - however the challenge that Vodafone faced is the same for Sprint etc.	23:45
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milhouse	RST: It's the reality of the situation, what do they expect - hand outs from Verizon? They just have to accept it and be smart about what they do. Sadly they're probably not (judging by the complaints I hear about various US service proviers)	23:46
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RST38h	milhouse: I don't think US consumers expect anything from cell companies any more	23:47
milhouse	It does seem to be a bit of a mess over there	23:47
RST38h	milhouse: Everybody got used to be assfucked on permanent basis	23:48
milhouse	Not helped by trying to push their own world standard...	23:48
RST38h	US isn't pushing cell standards any more	23:48
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RST38h	If you mean CDMA it is only supported by one network in the US (Verizon)	23:48
milhouse	No but they did in the past, when everyone else was happy with GSM etc.	23:48
RST38h	They didn't	23:49
RST38h	AT&T historically used TDMA (pre-GSM standard) and moved to GSM eventually	23:49
RST38h	Verizon used CDMA all the way, provided by QUualcomm	23:49
milhouse	Why did the US try to setup a CDMA network in Iraq? :)	23:50
RST38h	BTW, 3G (UMTS) is also CDMA based (CDMA/TDMA are MAC protocol names rather than standard names)	23:50
RST38h	milhouse: Verizon or Qualcomm probably got a contract, that's all	23:50
milhouse	Yes, it was political - not much use to the Iraqis	23:50
RST38h	Iraq has known worse things than CDMA network	23:51
milhouse	true	23:51
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sjgadsby	At some point this afternoon, my N810 began popping up the stylus keyboard for input even when the hardware keyboard is out. What settings might I check to try to return to the old, stylus-keyboard-only-when-hardware-keyboard-is-closed behavior?	23:52
milhouse	Control Panel -> Text Input?	23:53
lcuk	sjgadsby, have you tried the windwos fix	23:53
lcuk	windows even	23:53
sjgadsby	What's the windows fix?	23:53
lcuk	turn it off and back on again	23:54
sjgadsby	Ah. Gotcha.	23:54
sjgadsby	I'll try that now, lcuk.	23:54
lcuk	may be simpler than twiddling with things - if you havent done anything specific to change stuff something couldv justcocked up	23:54
* lcuk iwll pass you onto level 2 support if its still broken :P		23:55
lcuk	where do i get typing assistance?	23:55
lcuk	i need an intern	23:55
lcuk	usb lead for my n810 wont work on n800 will it	23:56
milhouse	no	23:56
lcuk	damn	23:56
lcuk	who lives near manchester and has an n800	23:56
lcuk	or do i have to send off for one	23:56
milhouse	sarf lahndan - sorry	23:57
milhouse	any miniUSB lead should work in a N800	23:58
sjgadsby	Yep, lcuk, a reboot fixed it. Such a simple fix; sorry for the noise.	23:58
milhouse	(microUSB on n810)	23:58
*** eichi has quit IRC		23:59
lcuk	mmm ill try and find one though	23:59

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