IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2008-11-07

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JasonWoofI open the browser an get the [ O Updating ] thing forever00:02
JasonWoofI can open the menu, but clicking settings does nothing00:02
JasonWoofdoesn't matter if I open a blank page, or a bookmark00:03
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suihkulokkiStsN800: had tested that already. Apparently the problem is that the xf86-input-tslib told X it had a 320x200 screen and X tries to scale that...00:04
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StsN800ah00:06
suihkulokkiso now it works I hacked in the defaults to 800x48000:10
lcuksuihkulokki, is it feasible to operate in arbitrary RGB resolution scaled to fullscreen?00:12
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lcukin Xv I have this ability, but I thought it was lacking on the RGB side00:12
lcukie limited to pixel doubling only00:12
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suihkulokkihonestly.. no idea :)00:14
lcukheh00:14
lcukwould be nice to find out and see what the maximum tear tree rgb resolution would be00:15
lcukit would help with a software opengl to know that we don't have to render 800*48000:15
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suihkulokkiI presume there's nothing stopping one creating a RGB Xv window and just SHM'n the game there00:16
lcuknot thinking of games :)00:16
lcukwell, unless you can make games in clutter00:17
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penguinbaitqwerty you around?00:53
penguinbaitQWERTY!!00:53
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800 ;)00:55
Stskeepssince he's probably on xchat, it'll highlight00:55
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penguinbaitIts not like its busy enough to miss in here :)00:56
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* Stskeeps stretches and gets cracking on rewriting the sdk section of reconstructed.01:15
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penguinbaitI got an email from a guy in Au that wants me to build Android for about 5 windows mobile phones, wants to launch by dec 5th01:17
penguinbaitI went to his website and he has already announced it will be available for 199 by christmas01:18
penguinbaithahahaha01:19
penguinbaithttp://www.kogan.com.au/01:19
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GeneralAntillest_s_o, yes, Karel's right. Congress was pushing for more high-risk loans to help stimulate the economy.01:23
GeneralAntillesThat said, there aint anybody involved with clean hands, no matter what they say.01:24
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: *was*? What do you think the bailout package was expected to do? :/01:24
t_s_oheh, guess it shows that i have not been following the news much lately...01:24
GeneralAntillesShit don't get this bad unless everybody's helping it along. ;)01:24
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: it's not even started :/01:25
t_s_osimple greed ;)01:25
doc|homet_s_o: mixed with politics01:25
GeneralAntilles^01:25
GeneralAntillesGreed isn't a bad thing.01:25
doc|homeit was greenspan who put interest rates so far in the first place01:25
GeneralAntillesThe world wouldn't be where it is today without greed.01:25
doc|homeer, so low01:25
t_s_odoc|home: and maybe an attempt or two of buying ones way up the social food chain ;)01:25
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doc|homet_s_o: meh, I don't care much about that once they're not using my money to do it and once they take the hit when they screw up, which sadly is not the case.01:26
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smackpotatoim going to stimulate the economy when i buy a car next week. everyone should do the same01:26
doc|homesmackpotato: you buying with debt?01:27
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t_s_othinking about resources rushes like gold fevers there GeneralAntilles?01:27
doc|homet_s_o: speculation's a good thing, it redirects resources01:27
smackpotatona noone will give me credit i have cash01:27
doc|homesmackpotato: even then you're using debt, all currency is debt these days01:27
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doc|homesince they killed the gold standard they say what backs the US dollar is the strength of the US economy. Scary, don't you think?01:28
smackpotatonot my dept im getting ride of someone elses dept to me01:28
t_s_odoc|home: to be honest, modern economics gives me a headache. it seems to be built out of one dream cloud stacked on top of another...01:28
doc|homet_s_o: yep, that's pretty much the case01:28
doc|home"here, take some paper, it might even still be worth something next year"01:29
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t_s_oproblem is that im willing to be anything goes back to physics in the end, and that means that pesky law of thermodynamics...01:29
t_s_obet01:29
doc|homet_s_o: yeah, why do you think the gold standard keeps popping up every time people realise paper money is worth just that, paper? :)01:30
doc|home(or silver, or whatever)01:30
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smackpotatothe total finantial system depends on a small amount of gold deposit at the world bank from all countrys execept britain us and switerland they have there on currancys on deposit01:31
t_s_oits something physical, not some multi-tier mental excercise01:32
doc|homesmackpotato: that isn't even true01:32
doc|homesmackpotato: there is no gold standard now01:32
doc|homeit's all paper01:32
doc|homethey do have some gold, but just as a worst case scenario, there's no ratio of gold to paper01:32
doc|homeso there's no limit as to how much paper they print01:32
smackpotatonot true? now ill have to google that01:32
t_s_oor if there is, its 0,000+e5000:101:32
doc|homehehe01:33
t_s_oand i probably messed up that one01:33
smackpotatohas anyone tried a usb sound card with a 77001:34
doc|homesmackpotato: would the kernel have drivers?01:34
* doc|home expects they wouldn't be compiled in the default01:34
t_s_oif we could make a comprehensive list of renewable and non-renewable resources on this planet, assign it all a value and use that as a basis to print up a set amount of work currency, then things may become "sane"01:35
smackpotatook01:35
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nemothe advantage of gold isn't that there is anything special about it01:35
doc|homet_s_o: that's what gold was really. Just another commodity which you used as a surrogate for barter.01:35
nemois just that it is a comodity that is relatively valuable in small amoutns01:35
nemoand in history, the extraction of gold has roughly matched efficiencies in production01:36
t_s_onemo: it was rare, durable, and shiny...01:36
nemowhich conveniently kinda matches the overall economy01:36
nemot_s_o: those too01:36
doc|homet_s_o: it's less that it was shiny and more that it doesn't degrade01:36
nemot_s_o: most important thing being those who mined gold couldn't just "print money"  - was kinda hard to do01:36
doc|homeunlike paper, it won't just disintegrate01:36
nemot_s_o: every time huge amounts of gold have been found, they screwed with local economies01:36
nemot_s_o: no different than if a gov't printed tons of money01:36
doc|homenemo: one sec about that01:36
smackpotatothe rub with gold is when it gets expensive people go underground to mine it  some get killed01:37
nemot_s_o: like, Spain got into trouble on that front I seem to remember01:37
nemoditto Cali in gold rush01:37
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doc|homenemo: the largest inflation in a gold standard was when spain went to south america, prices doubled, over 100 years, I've seen prices triple in my lifetime and I'm only 26.01:37
nemobut nowdays, dunno if anyone could mine enough gold to really screw up an economy.  there was one story recently (indonesia?) but that was more due to the local currency01:37
nemodoc|home: yeah. I do remember the psain thing01:37
nemospain even :)01:38
doc|homenemo: and with the gold rush in the US, the prices there had been dropping for 100 years so when they found gold again it just meant prices rose to where they had been01:38
doc|homethere wasn't even inflation01:38
doc|home(over the long term)01:38
nemodoc|home: well, anyway, the main issue with currencies is when the supply changes unexpectedly01:38
doc|homethe USD has lost 97% of its value in the last 100 years01:38
nemogold rushes do that01:38
nemobut then, so does printing currency01:38
doc|homenemo: sure, but nowhere near as much, not even close01:38
nemoand of the two, gov't screwing with supply is more likely01:39
nemodoc|home: not disagreeing :)01:39
doc|homeyep01:39
doc|homethey can't screw with miners :)01:39
nemodoc|home: 'course, this is all more appropriate to, oh, ##libertarian01:39
doc|homenemo: aye01:39
doc|homeor #sanity01:39
doc|home:(01:39
nemosame diff :D01:39
doc|homehehe01:39
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nemonext year will be "interesting times" that's for sure01:40
smackpotatoadam smith based his work on value of grain always having the same value. that went all to hell after industrilization01:40
nemocertainly no point in saving - I might even max out those of my cards that are now below the inflation rate01:40
nemosmackpotato: there are always production efficiency improvements01:40
smackpotatoyep always01:41
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: updated SDK section - it's a bit more jucier and based on actual developments in Maemo world (sb2, Maemo SDK+)/tendancies from Nokia now01:41
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Stskeepsjuicier, i mean :P01:42
smackpotatohow about a usb flash drive on a 770 has anyone tried that01:43
GeneralAntillesAs long as you can get USB host working. . . .01:44
smackpotatousing the flasher right?01:44
GeneralAntillesYou'll need power01:45
GeneralAntillesSince the 770's port is completely unpowered01:46
smackpotatobummer01:46
smackpotatoits only going to be used as a music source for my stereo01:47
smackpotatoso a hub should be ok01:47
Stskeepsyeah, powered one01:47
doc|homesmackpotato: reduction in prices is a good thing. Do you complain when computer hardware gets cheaper?01:48
smackpotatonope01:48
doc|homewin!01:48
doc|home:)01:48
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smackpotatoor as they say at the lottery terminals gagnant01:52
* timeless looks for someone w/ a working debian install01:53
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nemosmackpotato: heck, apart from critiques of monopolies of power, gov't deficit spending to spur future growth is no different than a company taking out an investment loan01:54
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nemoproblem is gov'ts never seem to pay 'em back, or even approach parity with their returns01:54
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nemoat least ours doesn't :(01:55
nemooh. and stupid beaurocracies have stupid ideas on how to do investments.01:55
cyrus__Quick question, when you download the firmware for the N810, it has the filename RX-44-Diablo...what is the difference between that one and the RX-48-Diablo one?01:55
nemoguess that falls under monopolies of power01:55
Stskeepstimeless: which platform? :P01:55
GeneralAntillescyrus__, RX-48 is the WiMAX Edition01:55
cyrus__ok...thank you01:56
timelessi need to know what -dbg packages would get debug info for these files: /lib/tls/i686/cmov/libc.so.6 /usr/lib/libtalloc.so.1 /lib/libnss_wins.so.201:56
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Stskeepsokay. maybe a stupid question. what happens if i have a package that as a postinst sets up some symlinks, like /a -> /b (symlinks are -not- in package), and i have a package that comes with /a, does /b get overwritten then, or does dpkg do the sane thing and remove the symlink, and -then- replace?02:04
Robot101neither02:05
Stskeeps.. neither?02:05
Robot101wait, no02:05
Robot101it depends02:05
Robot101if a is a directory, no. dpkg doesn't interchange directories and symlinks02:05
Stskeepsit's a file in this case02:05
Robot101if a is a file, then it will unlink the symlink and replace it with a file, I believe02:05
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Stskeepsmmkay02:06
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Robot101actually it creates a.dpkg-new, then does link('a', 'a.dpkg-old') then rename('a.dpkg-new', 'a')02:08
Robot101then unlink('a.dpkg-old')02:08
Robot101something like that02:08
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Stskeepsk02:09
Stskeepsthanks02:09
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timeless:se noai02:40
timelessa:se ai02:40
timelessso, no takers?02:42
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zakkmIs there any way to get the USB networking from nokia n800, working on Mac OSX?04:20
zakkm(It works successfully on schools pc, but thats windows)04:20
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disco_stuhi every104:52
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disco_stuGeneralAntilles: are you around ?04:52
GeneralAntillesWatching the Office04:52
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tank-manamerican or british?04:53
tank-man:)04:53
GeneralAntillesUS04:53
disco_stutoday i flashed with diablo04:54
disco_stuafter booting04:54
disco_stui removed pre-installed-sounds 1.0.4 [4331kB]04:54
disco_stuand images a videos04:54
disco_stunow i'm installing wget and it complains that pre-installed-sounds 1.0.4 [4331kB]  is missing04:54
GeneralAntillesRemoving the package is the wrong way to go about it04:55
GeneralAntillesosso-software-version-rx34 depends on it04:55
disco_stuin chinoook it worket that way04:55
GeneralAntillesJust delete the media files out of MyDogs04:55
disco_stuok04:55
GeneralAntillesYes, well, Chinook doesn't have automatic system updates.04:55
disco_stui se..04:55
disco_stus/se/see/04:55
infobotdisco_stu meant: i see..04:55
GeneralAntillesSystem updates are pushed when o-s-v is updated04:55
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GeneralAntillesNokia may be dropping the media dependencies from o-s-v sometime in the future04:56
GeneralAntillesSo the issue may resolve itself04:56
GeneralAntillesbut for now. . . .04:56
disco_stuim about to try rotation right now04:56
disco_stuim so excited04:56
GeneralAntillesoutpo.st/rotate04:56
disco_stuthe problems of losing video with rotation are solved, right ?04:56
disco_stuGeneralAntilles: that web says it isnt working04:57
disco_stuwas going to try with: http://www.sse2.net/rotate/04:57
GeneralAntillesIt doesn't work from the Application Manager like we'd like it to.04:57
GeneralAntillesNo, use the one I linked04:57
GeneralAntillesJust click the .install04:57
GeneralAntillesthen do an apt-get -f install04:58
disco_stuok04:58
disco_stuwill it flash ?04:58
GeneralAntillesYeah, it'll work fine.04:58
disco_stutoday i got my new battery for the n80004:58
disco_stuim very happy04:58
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disco_stuGeneralAntilles: what is the 48Mhz thing about ?05:01
GeneralAntillesUps the clock on the SD cards05:01
GeneralAntillesMay increase speed somewhat05:01
GeneralAntillesProbably not worth it05:01
GeneralAntillesdoesn't work with some cards05:02
disco_stuthe link you provided includes it i think05:02
GeneralAntillesThe default kernel doesn't05:03
zakkmGeneralAntilles: anyway to get USB networking working on Mac OSX?05:03
disco_stuzakkm: hi fellow05:03
GeneralAntilleszakkm, I wasn't successful the last time I tried.05:03
zakkmdisco_stu: hi05:03
disco_stuzakkm: why dont you install ubuntu in your mac05:03
disco_stu;D05:03
zakkmGeneralAntilles: in school on the skool pc it worked,05:03
disco_stuwould be nicer05:04
zakkmeww05:04
zakkmi hate ubuntu05:04
zakkmtoo bloated -.-05:04
zakkmi got gentoo on my 250gb05:04
GeneralAntillesOr just talk your parents into a router.05:04
GeneralAntillesBreak the old one.05:04
zakkmWe used to have, thought we did when i bought the nokia05:04
zakkmbut my dad said it was broken, and gone05:04
disco_stuGeneralAntilles: i clicked the .install05:05
disco_stubut now complains about dependencies05:05
zakkmdisco_stu: all the repositories on?, just a guess05:05
GeneralAntillesJust tap through it then run apt-get -f install in xterm05:05
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disco_stuGeneralAntilles: i doest install at all05:09
zakkmGeneralAntilles: Would there be any driver or something to make it work?05:10
GeneralAntillesapt-get install rotation-support05:10
GeneralAntilleszakkm, google it.05:10
GeneralAntillesI don't remember05:10
zakkmbrings up nothing.05:10
GeneralAntilleshttp://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=usbnet+os+x05:11
disco_stuzakkm: i have a cheap wireless router i dont use, if you lived here i would lend it to you05:11
zakkmi live in Toronto, ON05:11
disco_stu10.000km away05:11
zakkmsweet05:12
disco_stuless05:12
disco_stuGeneralAntilles: i doesnt work05:12
disco_stus/i/it/05:12
infobotdisco_stu meant: GeneralAntitlles: i doesnt work05:12
GeneralAntillesIs there an error?05:12
disco_stucant find pkg rotation-support05:12
GeneralAntillesHang on05:13
zakkmThis is an USB driver for MacOS X to connect handheld devices like the Sharp Zaurus, Yopy, iPAQ, Motorola Linux phones, OpenMoko to MacOS X as an IP device via the USB cable. This allows to use telnet, ssh, SMB etc. to access the Zaurus.05:13
zakkmwould that work, possibly?05:13
disco_stuyes05:13
GeneralAntillesdisco_stu, apt-get install rotation-support-n80005:14
disco_stunow it is downloading, thanks man05:14
disco_stu:)05:14
disco_stuiou like three or four beers05:15
disco_stunow its done05:15
disco_stuwith the package installation05:15
disco_stuwhats next ?05:15
disco_sturebooting ?05:15
disco_stui didnt see any  flashing ?05:16
GeneralAntillesRestart after it's done05:16
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disco_stuwhen i fly to florida i'll invite you some beers05:17
disco_stu:D05:17
disco_stuwow i've rotation ;D;D;D05:18
disco_stuthanks man05:18
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disco_stui rotated while playing a video and everything died05:19
disco_stulol05:19
disco_stuGeneralAntilles: one thing05:20
disco_stuit seems that the screen lose some clearliness05:20
GeneralAntillesNot normally rotated05:20
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disco_stui think yes05:24
disco_stuwell rotation isnt that cool now that i use it05:25
disco_stulol05:25
disco_stubrowser is great05:25
GeneralAntillesYeah, I could've told you that. ;)05:25
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disco_stulol05:27
disco_stuGeneralAntilles:05:29
disco_stunow in the catalog i see os2008 feature upgrade05:30
disco_stu2 of them about 9mb each05:30
disco_stu?05:30
GeneralAntillescause you killed o-s-v05:30
GeneralAntillesapt-get install osso-software-version-rx34-unlocked05:30
disco_stuso if i get one of these i'll lose rotation and get to stock05:31
disco_stu?05:32
GeneralAntillesNo05:32
GeneralAntillesThat's why you're installing -unlocked05:32
disco_stui mean if i get other but unlocked05:33
GeneralAntillesNot unlocked will conflict with rotation05:33
GeneralAntilles-unlocked has depends >=05:33
GeneralAntillesNot unlocked is depends =05:34
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disco_stubut wont brick the distro, right ?05:34
zakkmwhat distro?05:34
disco_stumaemo05:34
zakkmo.05:34
GeneralAntillesNo05:34
GeneralAntillesThat's why I'm telling you to install it. ;)05:34
disco_stuagain..05:35
zakkmis there "diablo nightly"? or something05:35
GeneralAntillesNo.05:35
disco_stuif i fell i dont want rotation anymore.. i can grab the one with no unlocked05:35
disco_stuand everything should be fine05:35
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disco_stuzakkm: did you make the usb net work ?05:37
zakkmnot in mac05:38
disco_stui tried here and worked like a charm05:38
zakkmit works on windows, but i cant stand using windows05:38
disco_stui use ubuntu05:38
zakkmI have Mac OSX, and no im not dualbooting05:38
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zakkmi left linux along time ago ( except of course maemo )05:38
disco_stuzakkm: why dont you use VM05:38
disco_stuvmware, or virtualbox05:38
zakkmbecause mac wont detect it, therefore windows in a VM wont05:39
disco_stua silly windows inside05:39
disco_stuand voila05:39
zakkmi dont have the pc power either05:39
zakkmmy computer is slow05:39
disco_stuwindows hosted in a mac can take full control of a usb port05:39
zakkm1gb ram isnt so called ideal for virtual machining05:39
disco_stuyeees05:40
disco_stu1gb is a lot05:40
zakkmbut mac would have to recognize it as something first, wouldn't it?05:40
disco_stuno05:40
zakkmnot have a driver05:40
zakkmbut recognize it05:40
disco_stumac doesnt have to do anything05:40
zakkmand in mac, vmware has full 3d acceleration.05:40
zakkmso vmware would beat virtualbox in this case.05:40
zakkmim used to vmware and virtualbox, even qemu btw.05:40
disco_stutoo bad it isnt opersource05:40
zakkmi just thought it "shared" it with the virtual machine05:41
zakkmnot virtual machine takes it over?05:41
disco_stuyou define the behavior05:41
zakkmvmware for mac too?05:42
disco_stuguess so, havent tried in mac05:42
disco_stusince mac is for girls05:42
disco_stuand old people05:42
zakkm?05:42
zakkmubuntu is for lazy ppl XD05:42
zakkmthat want to try linux but dont want to learn XD05:42
GeneralAntillesdisco_stu, watch yourself. ;)05:42
disco_stulol05:43
disco_stuzakkm: i use linux since 199905:43
zakkmim not saying you05:43
disco_stuso, dont bother05:43
zakkmi meant the distro itself05:43
zakkmlol05:43
zakkmyou guys are experts05:43
zakkmi just meant ubuntu is suppose to be "easy" its for "newbies"05:43
zakkmthat was the point of it in my opinion05:43
disco_stuubuntu is good when looking for a distro you can reinstall in 15minutes and everything works out of the box05:43
zakkmlies05:44
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zakkmout of box my ass05:44
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disco_stulol05:44
disco_stuwith standard hardware of course..05:44
zakkmmy old motherboard, didnt have LAN support in ubuntu till 8.04.1 ... and its onboard LAN05:44
zakkm-.-05:44
zakkmold = had a 1.6ghz cpu in it , x6405:44
zakkmnot only that, it wouldnt boot at all.. even the livecd05:45
zakkmubuntu is far from work out of box -.-05:46
disco_stuzakkm: you had a crappy mobo05:46
zakkmno i didnt05:47
zakkmi had a d945gclf , atom motherboard05:47
zakkmubuntu doesnt even play mp3 does it?05:47
zakkmno xvid/divx out of box05:47
disco_stuyes it does05:48
disco_stusince 7.0405:48
zakkmCUPS sucks, doesnt even recognize any printer ive tried05:48
disco_stucups is awesome05:48
zakkmmac uses cups05:48
disco_stuis made by apple05:48
GeneralAntillesNot having drivers doesn't make a framework sucks05:48
zakkmlol05:48
GeneralAntilless/sucks/suck/05:48
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Not having drivers doesn't make a framework suck05:48
zakkmubuntu isnt out of box XD05:48
zakkmSuSe and Fedora are more out of box05:49
disco_stuzakkm: far from true05:49
disco_studeployment is harder with those05:49
zakkmok i havent used those in a long time05:49
zakkmthey're RPM05:50
zakkmi dont like rpm05:50
zakkmdont like anything binary for that matter.05:50
gregoroviusI prefer Hz.05:50
zakkmHz?05:50
zakkmHertz? thats all that comes to mind.05:50
gregoroviusit was a bad pun, yeah05:50
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gregoroviusRPM=revolutions per minute05:51
zakkmoo05:51
gregoroviussorry, been studying physics all day05:51
disco_stulol05:51
disco_stugregorovius: nice :)05:51
disco_stuare you in college ?05:51
gregoroviusyep05:51
disco_stuwhat are you studying ?05:51
gregoroviusCS, but i have to take some physics05:51
disco_stuthe same to me as software engineer05:52
gregorovius=)05:52
gregoroviusgotta reboot05:52
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GeneralAntilleshttp://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/maemo.org.zip <- maemo.org startup screen for interested parties.05:56
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disco_stuweird06:07
disco_stuzakkm: you seem to be a very smart boy06:07
zakkmwow06:07
zakkmagain06:07
zakkmoh, they came back06:07
zakkmdisco_stu: why thank you :)06:08
disco_stulol06:08
zakkmi dont get told that often, especially by people older ;p06:08
disco_stuim just 2306:08
l7GeneralAntilles: what OS is the maemo.org.zip startup screen for?06:11
l7looks interesting so far06:11
zakkmdisco_stu: im just 17 XD06:11
disco_stuinstalling ettercap :D:D06:12
GAN800l7, Maemo, of course06:15
GAN800Stick 'em in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/06:16
l7GAN800: oh, it's for Diablo06:23
l7cool tip though, i am getting tired of looking at that weird default startup screen06:24
disco_stuGAN800: just dropping the pixs in that path works ?06:25
GAN800Also: http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/err.zip for the ATHF fans.06:25
GAN800Yed06:25
GAN800gtk-update-icon-cache or two reboots.06:25
disco_stu,,, but you need to be using theme macosx or something ?06:27
GAN800Just ignore the OS X garbage06:28
GAN800I'm too lazy to purge it.06:28
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disco_stuzakkm: have you tried galculator ?06:30
zakkmno06:31
zakkmnever heard of it?06:31
disco_stuits very nice06:31
disco_stui found it, and i love it06:31
zakkmohh06:31
zakkmgnome calculator?06:31
disco_stuyes06:32
zakkmsorry, watching tv.. brb ;p06:32
zakkmyeah i liked it06:32
disco_stumathomatic06:32
zakkmnever tried on nokia though.06:32
disco_stuis very nice either06:32
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errordeveloperis it ok to change the uid of the 'user' from 29999 to what i need (1001)?07:16
errordeveloperso the memory card fs has the same file premissions when connected to my linux pc07:17
l7GAN800: where in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/ do the startup graphics go?07:18
l7wait, is it /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/ ?07:18
GAN800hildon, yeah, sorry07:19
l7ah07:19
l7i guess that means i have to backup and then overwrite07:19
l7hmm, looking at http://synthesize.us/LCARS_PADD/control_scripts07:20
l7i think the LCARS theme works by temporarily replacing those files too07:21
GAN800It does07:25
GAN800Just copy the originals somewhere safe if you want.07:25
l7yeah07:26
l7man, i really like using maemo now07:26
disco_stulol07:26
l7it's a little mind blowing how the same OS that runs a server farm or a desktop computer can also run a tablet that fits in your pocket07:26
l7when you stop and think about it07:27
disco_stunot he same os07:27
disco_stuthe same kernel07:27
l7well sort of the same distro07:27
l7if you're thinking of debian / ubuntu07:27
l7same distro roots i guess07:28
l7considering ubuntu runs google and wikipedia's servers07:28
disco_stutalking about the kernel it expands more07:28
l7how so?07:28
disco_stuyou have routers, phones,07:28
disco_stuwich dont run a distro like debian or so07:29
l7hmm yeah07:29
l7we should just standardize the world on linux07:29
disco_stuwe will, some day07:29
l7heh some day07:30
aspectfuck, I hope not07:30
l7why?07:30
aspectthat'd be like having one programming language for everything07:30
aspectisn't diversity and specialisation interesting?07:30
Gracklelinux is diverse and special07:31
l7well it seems sort of like having one language that everyone on earth could speak07:31
Gracklelike esperanto07:31
l7being able to communicate with everyone, or in this case, any device or computer07:31
l7yeah07:31
aspectit's not plan9 or qnx or beos07:31
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aspectdifferent languages are beautiful07:32
l7sure, but that also means you have language barriers07:32
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aspectI have language barriers with large segments of the english-speaking population07:32
l7i guess i'm imagining a future where everyone is computer literate07:32
aspectif we were all reduced to the lowest common denominator .. having this conversation would be difficult enough -- how would cutting-edge science get done?07:33
l7i don't see it as reducing everyone to an LCD07:33
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aspecttry learning another language sometime07:34
l7suppose you had the option to teach everyone the basics of computer literacy07:34
l7if you have limited resources, doesn't linux seem like the best OS to standardize on?07:34
GAN800kernels have very little to do with computer literacy07:35
l7i mean other people can go off and do specialized research in theory, and there's plenty of diversity within linux as it is anyway07:35
GAN800Nothing at all, really.07:35
l7well anyway, i was just thinking about how interesting it is that by learning about linux, i get the ability to use a tablet, a desktop, a router or phone and even a server, etc.07:37
l7which is pretty neat07:37
l7dreams of world domination aside07:38
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disco_stui changed the startup logo07:38
disco_stuwith the maemo ones07:38
disco_stunot that newat07:38
disco_stuneat*07:39
l7i changed the background on that logo to black for kicks07:39
disco_stul7: have you got more images for startup logo ?07:43
l7disco_stu: i just tweaked the colors in my image editor07:45
l7i could upload them somewhere if you want to take a look07:45
disco_stuGeneralAntilles: do you have another themes for startup logos ?07:45
disco_stul7: yes please07:45
l7ok, let me test it to make sure it works07:46
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l7okay it doesn't quite look right07:48
l7i'll upload it anyway if someone wants to give me some advice on what went wrong07:49
GAN800disco_stu, only maemo.org and Err07:50
l7http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=e565631803e458faab1eab3e9fa335caa3598cdb44fa132407:50
disco_stuthanks l707:51
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l7np07:52
l7remember it looks funny :)07:52
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l7maybe it was the resource forks from using a mac07:53
l7hrm, still messed up07:57
l7the maemo logo gets stuck in the middle of the screen07:57
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l7oh i see, you have to make an image that's the size of the screen08:02
l7if it's not a white background08:02
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timelessl7: what is that .zip file?08:09
timelessthe resource forks were odd08:09
timelesspicasa's image viewer didn't apppreciate them08:09
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l7timeless: i made it with a mac08:14
l7macs suck!08:14
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disco_stuwhat pkg do you use in diablo for usb mode switch ?08:15
disco_stuin chinook i had one app to do that08:16
timelessyeah, but why make the zip file?08:16
l7dunno, GeneralAntilles uploaded his as zips08:18
l7i can upload it as a folder perhaps08:18
l7i think i've got it fixed08:18
l7ah nice08:19
l7hrm, mediafire doesn't let you upload entire folders08:21
l7annoying08:21
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timelessum08:22
timelessbrowsers don't let you upload folders08:22
l7yeah08:22
l7anyway, http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=10adf6e800c89f4fab1eab3e9fa335caabcf2b6afea9da18 is the new version08:22
l7maybe i'll tweak it some more tomorrow08:23
disco_stuGeneralAntilles: how do you control otg in diablo ?08:24
disco_stul7: how it looks ?08:24
l7disco_stu: not bad this time08:25
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l7i can't figure out why the green and white maemo logo pops up after the progress bar ends though08:25
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l7oh wait, i used qgn_indi_nokia_hands.png when it should have been a jpg08:27
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l7i wonder if it's safe to reboot your tablet every five minutes08:34
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l7http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=47b1832e0662af10ab1eab3e9fa335caf4377ca4b04cf82608:39
l7okay it's fixed08:39
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tekojoMorning09:00
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l7is it possible to insert text via ssh into maemo's clipboard?09:18
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usicowdoes anyone know if there's a better way to cache the google maps for maemo-mapper rather than downloading them on the device? It seems extremely slow downloading them on the device, and the CPU stays at 100% the whole time.09:32
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pupnikmoorning09:40
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pupniki had trouble with that usicow - need someone else to answer that09:41
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Stskeepsusicow: i think i used a winmapper or something thing originally09:45
Stskeepsthat did the dling09:45
Stskeepsnot confidently sure it wasn't for my s-e phone though09:46
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Mikhoanybody using esbox? Would anyone have any idea why it insists on running autogen.sh every single time I select "build project"?09:57
Stskeepsdebian packages ocassionally have a tendancy to do that atleast09:57
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RST38hmoo all10:18
Stskeepsmoo10:19
StskeepsRST38h: does sb2 qualify as cross-compilation where it doesn't get in the way then?10:20
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vincenzo88Hello all!10:20
vincenzo88I build an application with Qt4 for N810 with Maemo Diablo OS but my menu bar doesn't appear. Someone have a solution to show the menu bar ?10:21
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Stskeepsdoesn't it simply slide into the hildon menu bar?10:23
Stskeepsif it's properly hildonized10:23
vincenzo88By default the menu bar is in top left on the windows but when i am in full screen this menu disapear10:24
vincenzo88And i don't know how to slide into the hildon menu bar :p10:25
chenkaireport said nokia doesn't seem to hildonize Qt4, just leaving what Qt looks like.  ok, i'm not quite sure :-P10:26
vincenzo88I will do without so :'(10:27
chenkaii've got a question for those who know something about the FM transmitter in N810, can the transmitter emit FM signal besides receiving the FM signal?? Pls forgive my igorance :) thanks10:32
Stskeepsit's not a transmitter, it's a receiver10:32
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chenkaier-oh~~10:33
Stskeepsa fm transmitter might make it more difficult to sell in some parts of the world :P10:36
guardianmorning10:37
chenkai:) some webpages states that N810 contains THE transmitter but no app make use of that to send FM signal. so i wonder the real meaning of THE transmitter:)10:39
Stskeepsn810 doesn't have any fm stuff as far as i know10:39
Stskeepsnot even a fm receiver10:39
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chenkaii see.  anyway, no fmradio for N810 any more :'(10:45
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JaffaMorning, all11:05
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* Stskeeps ponders idly why his n800 is rebooting spuriously.12:07
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vincenzo88Someone know how to create a executable app with maemo ? (whitout write ./app, i want run my App with double clic)12:20
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RST38hvincenzo: Have you been to maemo.org Development section?12:28
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vincenzo88RST38H: i have find the solution : place the app in /var/lib/install/usr and create a file .desktop to integrate the app on the desktop12:31
vincenzo88This solution is for 770 but i think it's work on 81012:32
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RST38hBut have you been to maemo.org Development section? :)12:37
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vincenzo88Yes but i have not read all the content12:38
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RST38hwait a moment12:45
RST38hGeneral, are you alive?12:45
RST38hOr anybody else related to Maemo wiki?12:45
* X-Fade looks at his karma: Karma 66612:47
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lardmanX-Fade: lol12:52
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lardmanI'm not even half way to you12:53
X-FadeQuim is approaching 2k.12:53
lardmanwow, blogging is a good earner12:54
vincenzo88Goodbye everybody!12:54
lcuklardman, i think x-fade cheats ;)12:54
lardmanwell the discussion karma still seems low/broken12:54
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X-Fadelardman: I'm beginning to think it doesn't like your uppercase email.12:55
lardmanhmm, case shouldn't matter for emails though ;)12:56
lardmanbut yeah, perhaps12:56
lardmanthough I think my return address is always the same12:56
X-FadeYeah, I checked that once.12:56
lardmanI'll set Outlook to searching my archive to see what they look like12:57
lardmanmight take a loooonnng while12:57
X-FadeHmm no, it isn't.12:57
JaffaWhoa. GeneralAntilles' karma's jumped.12:57
X-FadeYou sometimes use SG.P**** and have registered S.G.P***12:57
lardmanhmm12:57
JaffaAh. ITT's now counted.12:57
X-FadeSo perhaps you should add the SG.P address too.12:58
lardmanthat must be a typo on my part then, it's not a real address12:58
lardmanlet me see where that's come from12:58
* Jaffa needs to switch his ITT account for 'aflegg' to 'Jaffa'. I think the thanks for Jaffa are more than aflegg12:59
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JaffaPost count is lower, though.13:01
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lardmanX-Fade: do you have a date of one of those emails?13:01
* Jaffa bops reggie for never answering "can I switch my username?" emails, and maemo.org profiles for only allowing me to specify one account (it's a little edge casey, tho ;-))13:02
lardmanah well, I've only sent ~219 emails, perhaps my karma is right13:02
X-Fadelardman: No, those should be giving you 219 karma then.13:03
lardmanhmm13:03
lardmanI can't see anything with SG.Pickering@ etc.13:03
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X-Fadelardman: Yeah, weird. They show up in the site search.13:04
lardmanyou can search for that string and it also returns S.G.Pickering...13:04
X-FadeYes, but it really shows SG.P13:04
lardmancan you give me a title/date for one and I'll look at it here?13:05
X-FadeBut searching my own mails, doesn't give me any results.13:05
lardmanweird13:05
X-FadeSo I guess that is a google mini searchbox glitch.13:05
lardmanah well, not to worry13:07
X-Fadelardman: But we still need to fix the forums, and this is where karma count is done.13:07
X-FadeSo it might get fixed automatically.13:08
lardmanforums?13:08
lardmanbbiab13:08
X-Fadehttp://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/13:08
X-FadeBut importing is broken for some type of mails. Mime parsing is buggy there.13:09
JaffaIs fixing it committed to a sprint?13:10
X-FadeJaffa: It is a bug for bergie at least.13:10
X-FadeAnd the styling needs to be fixed too, but I'm not going to do that while we haven't upgraded yet.13:12
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JaffaX-Fade: just a bit disappointing that it seems, like a lot of stuff, to be sort of done; but not quite finished enough to be actually useful- so therefore can't be advertised.13:19
X-FadeJaffa: I'm with you, but the thing is testing this takes sooooo much time on a overloaded server. This needs to be fixed first.13:20
X-FadeIf the whole server issue was fixed earlier I wouldn't have lost about 3 months of development time :(13:21
Jaffa:(13:22
JaffaThe server stuff seems to be dragging on too, although this may have been covered in the sprint meeting I couldn't make.13:22
JaffaHmm, is the log up yet?13:22
X-FadeSure, I always upload logs ;)13:22
JaffaCan we ensure - although admittedly perhaps this should /really/ be done by the chair - that as soon as the logs go up, -community is emailed saying it works?13:23
X-FadeWhat works?13:23
X-FadeLogs are always linked here: http://maemo.org/maemo-meeting/13:24
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JaffaOK, but that's not my point.13:25
JaffaMy point is that a) they're not going to be up immediately (or are they?); and this location should be communicated at the same time (either with the invite, or when the logs are available) as themeeting.13:25
X-FadeJaffa: Well, I guess we need a secretary :)13:26
X-FadeJaffa: Volunteering? :)13:27
RST38hX-Fade: Looks like Maemo.org development section is now missing lots of howtos13:29
RST38hSomething happened?13:29
JaffaX-Fade: whomever uploads the logs is, by definition, the secretary - as it's the only secretarial task we've got ;-p13:29
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camel_liuDid anybody meet the problem: ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:864:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave13:32
camel_liuwhen I use SDL_mixer and init audio13:33
camel_liuI met this problem. Then my ubuntu cannot play audio anymore13:34
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leluxHello, what is user passwd in 2008? Trying to ssh user@n800host which prompt passwd but i don't know it.13:48
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lardmantry root, password is rootme13:49
leluxok13:49
RST38hehlo lardman13:50
lardmanhi RST38h13:50
camel_liuhi lardman, when I use SDL_mixer, I met: ALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:864:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave13:51
camel_liuDo you have any idea?13:51
lardmancamel_liu: not my specialty13:52
camel_liuoh13:52
lardmansorry13:53
Stskeepsmm, bacon in pasta sald++13:53
Stskeepssalad13:53
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lardman:)13:54
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slapinhi, all!13:54
slapinrobtaylor, ping13:54
robtaylorslapin: pong?13:55
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slapinrobtaylor, hi, how things are?13:55
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robtaylorslapin: not too bad! busy busy busy!13:57
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slapinrobtaylor, could you please answer question sent by private message?13:58
slapinrobtaylor, sorry for bothering you13:59
RST38hHehe, Google patched Android jailbreak14:01
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Stskeepsand that's why i love our maemo.14:02
RST38hSts: ain't you a deblet man?14:03
StskeepsRST38h: well, i'm also a maemo user14:03
Stskeepsthere are things maemo has done right and some they haven't14:03
Stskeepsand ability to fuck everything completely up is there14:03
Stskeepsand that's a good thing14:04
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Stskeepslike, shell access, root access, add ssh if you want, manipulate themes etc14:04
Stskeepsa lot of possibilities14:04
slapintoo bad you can't fuck bootloader up using flasher :(14:04
* RST38h does /names #maemo and looks at the possibilities14:05
Stskeepsit's possible inside mtd anyway as far as i can recall14:05
Stskeepsbut you could brick it totally14:05
RST38hYea, so many little tablets to break in =)~14:05
slapinby the way, is it possible to cold flash device 'at home' or some high-tech patented technology needed?14:05
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Khertan_n810Hi !14:05
Stskeepsno clue, never went that far14:06
Khertan_n810Does someone know how to convert a gtk.gdk.Color to a #rrggbb string ?14:06
Stskeepsqwerty might know14:06
Khertan_n810pygtk.org is down14:06
StskeepsKhertan_n810: .to_string()14:06
Khertan_n810and googlecache doesn t help14:07
StskeepsThe to_string() method returns a textual specification of color in the hexadecimal form #rrrrggggbbbb, where r, g and b are hex digits representing the red, green and blue components respectively14:07
Stskeepsaccording to "text only version"14:07
Khertan_n810.__str__() return a gdk.Color object14:07
Khertan_n810__str__() is the python to_string()14:08
Stskeepspygtk api says to_string() :P14:09
Stskeepsand i know14:09
Khertan_n810?14:09
Stskeepshttp://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:12oKppV3LE4J:pygtk.org/docs/pygtk/class-gdkcolor.html+gtk+gdk+color&hl=da&gl=dk&strip=114:10
Khertan_n810gdk.Color has now method .to_string()14:10
Stskeepsah14:10
Khertan_n810s_now_no14:10
Stskeepsit may not work cos it's gtk 2.12, i'm not sure maemo has that yet14:10
Khertan_n810s/now/no14:10
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Khertan_n8102.1414:11
Khertan_n8102.14.1 to be extact14:11
Khertan_n810exact14:11
suihkulokkislapin: http://www.bu3sch.de/n810.php14:11
Stskeepsah14:11
Khertan_n810strange14:12
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yergaKhertan_n810, try with gtk.gdk.Color.blue, and the same with red and green14:13
Stskeepsheh, talk about a neat hack (the serial console one)14:14
* RST38h likes the battery thermistor mention at that page14:14
RST38hSo, basically, as soon as the Li battery goes over some temperature, the device will stop using it14:14
slapinsuihkulokki, thanks a lot!14:14
Stskeepsslapin: could consider a n800 instead to do it on, seems to be easier to reach serial on it14:14
Khertan_n810yerga : this is a way but need convert as is 65535 base14:14
yergaah, yeah, you need the hex number14:17
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Khertan_n810hex(c.blue/255)[2:4]14:21
Khertan_n810but for high level language and api it s not really a good way _)14:21
Khertan_n810:)14:21
yergaKhertan_n810, gtk.color_selection_palette_to_string([gdk.Color[]) returns the complete hex number14:22
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Khertan_n810ah it s better :)14:22
yergayeah, not workarounds14:23
yergaI had it in some app for maemo14:23
Khertan_n810héhé14:24
Khertan_n810what this error means :14:24
Khertan_n810GtkWarning: gtk_font_selection_set_font_name: assertion `gtk_widget_has_screen (GTK_WIDGET (fontsel))' failed14:24
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Khertan_n810?14:24
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yergano idea14:25
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Khertan_n810thx for help14:26
melmothKhertan_n810, something called  gtk_font_selection_set_font_name. This function check that the fontsel widget has a screen..And it did not.14:27
Khertan_n810yep that the part i understand14:27
melmothwell, it does not mean anything more :)14:27
Khertan_n810but the one i dont is why it don t have a screen14:28
melmothi dont know exactly what "screen" mean in a font context anyway. I guess looking at what gtk_widget_has_sceen mean is the next step14:29
Khertan_n810ok i ll look14:29
Khertan_n810thx14:29
Khertan_n810coming back to office14:29
Khertan_n810bye14:29
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JaffaOh, how I love ITT: "Problem saving to /usr/local/bin"14:32
Stskeepshehe14:35
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lcukhad chicken today, doesn't taste like bacon15:16
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RST38hlcuk: Bacon: http://ars.sdstate.edu/swineext/Photos/ThreePiglets.jpg15:49
RST38hlcuk: And judging from its eyes, it *knows* it's bacon =)15:50
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robtaylortasty tasty bacon15:55
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Stskeepsthere better be bacon on next maemo summit..15:55
Stskeeps:P15:56
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* Stskeeps ponders what to do today.15:58
RST38hSts: hildonize qalculate15:59
RST38hOr the linux dc++ client15:59
Stskeepsi'd rather do those after we get a sane base system, would make things a lot easier :P15:59
Stskeepsthink i'll watch southpark first and then get cracking on my idea of booting your emulator from your sb2 rootstrap16:00
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Stskeeps.. think people will not be happy about install script of an SDK setting up a NFS server?16:17
johnxwhy does it need an NFS server?16:18
ShadowJK_RST38h, a Li-ion battery gets warmer by using it, a damaged/low quality Li-Ion battery gets much warmer by using it, a Li-Ion battery much warmer than 90C will explode :) Imagine what happens if you make a cheap generic replacement battery and save a penny on using a resistor instead of thermistor :D16:18
RST38hjohnx: because it is braindamaged16:18
RST38hlives in its own "filesystem" and needs NFS to access host fs16:18
Stskeepsoh, i wasn't talking about that16:19
johnxwhy won't a bind mount work?16:19
Stskeepsi was talking about a qemu emulator booting off the sb2 rootstrap16:19
ShadowJK_I thought NFS to localhost was racy and prone to deadlock on Linux...16:19
RST38hShadow: Ah, fuck the sensors, add the cameras so that we can watch those batteries explode!16:19
RST38hNFS sucks moose balls, but in this case it is not the NFS to blame16:19
Stskeepsbut as i see this may not be directly sane :)16:19
ShadowJK_RST38h, youtube is full of "Let's overcharge lithium batteries and watch the fireworks" videos16:19
johnxmaybe something a little more lightweight like sshfs would be better...16:20
Stskeepsyeah, but can a linux kernel boot from that? maybe through a initfs :P16:20
johnxah, I see16:20
RST38hSts,johnx: Gentlemen, may I ask why you would need NFS in the SDK (assuming it is what you are talking about)16:20
johnxusing qemu system for the emulator instead of qemu user mode16:21
johnxqemu user mode is the one that only kinda works and you hate it :)16:21
RST38hSts: qemu should have direct access to the restricted part of your host fs16:21
RST38hSts: no nfs, no sshfs, etc16:21
StskeepsRST38h: well, i'm just exploring the option of booting a real system instead of just binaries, from your roots16:21
Stskeepsi'm speaking of the system emulator, not the elf binary emulation layer16:22
RST38hAh16:22
RST38hOk16:22
Stskeepsbut i'm starting to slide towards a jffs2 image or the likes would be more sane..16:22
Stskeepsand some tools to aid this16:22
johnxjffs2 image seems a little painful to setup16:23
johnxhow about a disk img?16:23
Stskeepsalso possible16:23
Stskeeps-mtdblock -sd, etc16:24
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johnxright, for some reason I keep thinking we'll just emulate a versatile-pb with IDE. I guess it would make sense to just have a loopback jffs2 image then?16:26
Stskeepswell IDE + hd image can work too.. the problem about loopback jffs2 means we need to be root to run sdk, - i need to edit proposal a bit since the NFS way isn't exactly sane after some exploring :P16:28
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Stskeepsi'm thinking we simply target a versatile-pb with the generic m-r platform at first16:28
Stskeepsand then we can do specialized packages to actually boot stuff16:28
lardman|afkqalculate, that;s a good idea, does it compile for ARM these days?16:28
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RST38hlardman: qwerty says it compiled but crashed on startu16:29
lardmanRST38h: ok, cool16:29
RST38hlardman: unfortunately he had no time/expertise to see why16:29
lardmanwhere is the boy hey?16:29
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RST38hlardman: dc++ client also compiles but crashes when asking for credentials16:29
lardmanI'll have to ping him later on16:29
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RST38hlardman: Either should be worthy addition16:30
lardmanI had these issues when I tried a long while back: http://www.ginac.de/pipermail/cln-list/2007-February/000267.html16:30
lardmandc++ is some M$ file sharing thing?16:31
Stskeepsnop16:35
Stskeepsdirect connect16:35
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leluxis there dc++ client for maemo? what about torrent client?16:37
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johnxtransmission for torrents16:39
leluxso it seems thanx16:42
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RST38htransmission kinda sucketh16:47
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woglindehi16:48
RST38hLenovo saw its profits take a dive in the last quarter  <=== DIES, Lenovo, DIE16:51
johnxRST38h, still cranky about your work laptop?16:51
RST38hjohnx: Absolutely. It's shit.16:52
RST38hjohnx: Especially considering that people are getting reasonably useful HPs16:52
johnxI did actually play with an x200 in a store. Can't seem to find much wrong with it initially16:52
RST38hDunno, I have got a T6116:53
johnxI can't see bothering with their bigger ones16:53
RST38hAnd I sincerely hope that as soon as Lenovo's remaining corporate supply contracts run out, it will die quick and painful death16:54
johnxlet me get an x200 first :P16:54
aquatixx200 is rather nice16:55
aquatixbut i like the x61 screen better i think16:55
* aquatix wants a x61 with 1400x1050 screen16:55
aquatixbut those are only in tablet form, and damn expensive16:55
RST38hjohnx: screw x200, get a toshiba r-series16:55
johnxRST38h, give me a model number16:56
RST38hR600, R500 if you are saving money16:56
woglindewhats nice on hp you have seperate hw keys for disabling bt and wlan16:57
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woglindemost lenovo have only one for both16:57
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RST38hwoglinde: fucked up lenovo disables ethernet when you switch lan on16:57
RST38hwlan sorry16:57
woglindeRST38h hm16:57
* aquatix likes the Samsung x360: http://www.engadget.com/photos/samsung-x360-handled-fights-macbook-air-to-the-death/1004432/ and http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/28/samsung-debuts-x360-lighter-than-air-ultraportable/16:57
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woglindeRST38h didnt see this with an x61s16:58
RST38hit is also impossible to remove it from the dock without losing display configuration16:58
johnxsounds a lot like windows problems ...16:58
RST38hits system "sooftware" goes absolute nuts16:58
RST38hjohnx: Not windows, but the crappy software layer that Lenovo supplies16:58
johnxjust saying it's not something I'd run into16:59
RST38hjohnx: Well, I am running into it several times a day16:59
johnxjeez! an r500 starts at $1500?16:59
RST38hYea, they have got a $1500 model17:00
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RST38hNo CDROM, AFAIK, but I never cared about CDROM anyway17:00
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johnxthat's a bit high...17:01
johnxat that price I might as well just get a Mac17:01
RST38hjohnx: I am using R100 as a desktop replacement, it is worth every penny of those $180017:01
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johnxno trackpoint, slow CPU, no express card, and an ancient intel graphics chip for $1500 does not sound like an awesome deal17:03
RST38hWell, get an R60017:04
RST38hIn a few months, it will cost the same $150017:04
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johnx...or an x200 which costs $1100 now17:04
johnxanyways, not worth worrying about at this point17:06
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RST38hExcept that it is twice heavier and runs out of battery 25% faster17:07
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RST38hAnd of course looks like it is designed by Soviets and built by Chinese17:08
johnxmy laptop doesn't need to be a fashion accessory17:08
RST38hNeither does mine, but it shouldn't be THAT offensively ugly either17:09
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suihkulokkiRST38h: hey, "Type 56" is excellent, that recipe can work ;)17:09
johnxI've always liked the thinkpad design actually17:09
johnxmaybe, just maybe taste in design might be subjective :P17:09
RST38hHere: http://www.notebookreview.com/picture.asp?f=3477917:10
RST38hYou can clearly see what happens when you let Chinese manage the design process17:10
johnxI've used one quite extensively in a store actually17:10
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aquatixRST38h: hm, designed by Soviets and built by Chinese... isn't that the perfect linux machine? ;)17:13
aquatixfor the people by the people :)17:13
johnxheh...or maybe a beagleboard in a workpad z50 case17:14
RST38haquatix: Not really =)17:14
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aquatixjohnx: :)17:15
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* RST38h looked at z50: same ugly crap as its bigger brothers17:19
RST38hMIPS based with WinCE...umgh17:19
johnxmainly for nostalgia17:19
Stskeepsheh, docpurge source "Real hackers don't read docs"17:19
johnxruns netbsd well enough apparently17:19
RST38hyep17:20
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aquatixjohnx: friend of mine uses one as ssh/irssi terminal17:22
aquatixwith some bsd on it17:22
johnxmy zaurus will turn into that at this rate :/17:22
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RST38hdoes it have full qwerty keyboard17:23
RST38h?17:23
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johnxboth have qwerty17:23
johnxthe old slide-out zaurus has a 4 row, the convertible tablet ones have a 5 row, but it's JP layout17:24
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* RST38h has seen that one used by a few Japanese students coming to a conference17:26
johnxit's nice enough to type on once you adapt to the keyboard layout17:27
johnxsadly, 64MB of RAM just isn't cutting it these days for graphical web browsing17:28
RST38hAre Zauri dead now? Now plans to revive the line?17:28
RST38hs/Now/No/17:28
infobotRST38h meant: Are Zauri dead now? No plans to revive the line?17:28
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johnxSharp still makes similar handhelds but they don't use Linux17:28
johnxs/handhelds/dictionaries/17:29
infobotjohnx meant: Sharp still makes similar dictionaries but they don't use Linux17:29
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RST38hUIQ: As a result, yesterday, its remaining 270 employees were put on notice of dismissal. However Sony Ericsson has agreed to continue funding the company on a by month by month basis in order to allow the company to investigate options for the future.17:55
RST38hAnd people at iTT are basically *mourning* dismissal of some guys from Nokia17:56
RST38hImagine how those 270 UIQ folks must feel =)17:56
nemopity. UIQ seemed like a neat idea17:57
nemo'course, ericsson has been on death watch for a while17:57
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RST38hUIQ actually has better, more organized APIs than S6017:58
ShadowJK_I just can't bring myself the mourn the loss of some symbian perpetrators right now. Although I hope they find a new home somewhere doing something better :)17:58
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qwerty12RST38h, WAY less apps though17:58
RST38hShadow: Ok, let me put it into perspective: It is either Symbian *or* WinMobile. See now?17:58
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RST38hqwerty: yes, but UIQ is not to blame for it17:59
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RST38hSoneric is to blame - they didn't market and they didn't do decent support17:59
qwerty12But the result is still the same in the end. If it dies, I really couldn't care less.17:59
thopiekarCould someone please tell me how to work with pluthon on windows ... especialy how to configure copssh...17:59
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RST38hEclipse? KILL.18:00
lardman|afkqwerty12: just the man, qalculate18:00
qwerty12lardman|afk, I never got it to work :/18:01
lardman|afkwhat was the problem?18:01
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lardmanyour pastebin has expired18:01
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qwerty12It segfaulted as soon as I ran it18:01
qwerty12I got cln compiled and because it took me years, I put up packages to save time: http://qwerty12.maemobox.org/cln/18:02
* thopiekar is now working on getting pluthon working on andLinux..18:02
qwerty12That's about it regarding qalculate :/18:02
qwerty12~seen penguinbai18:02
qwerty12~seen penguinbait18:02
infoboti haven't seen 'penguinbai', qwerty1218:02
infobotpenguinbait <n=smokey@c-68-62-90-22.hsd1.mi.comcast.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 16h 43m 10s ago, saying: 'http://www.kogan.com.au/'.18:02
RST38hThe U.S. economy shed 240,000 jobs in October and the unemployment rate jumped sharply to 6.5 percent <-- that is 2% of workforce in 1 month18:02
qwerty12grr, it would have been nice if he didn't want to chat while I was sleeping >.<18:03
lardmanqwerty12: what was the problem with cln?18:03
RST38hthopiekar: Better integrate with some decent IDE18:03
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qwerty12lardman, no problems, it compiled fine, just the tests were pisstaking and took way more longer than the actual compile18:03
Stskeepsjohnx: possible issue though, some pages seem to say versatile fb is 8bit color?18:03
lardmanqwerty12: ah ok, you tested on device did you?18:03
johnxStskeeps, ahaha...we could still have it display in xephyr I guess18:04
GeneralAntillesRST38h, pong.18:04
Stskeepsjohnx: yeah, i guess that would be the sane solution18:04
qwerty12lardman, hmm, well it installed on device, the program I wanted to test it with segfaulted...  But like I said, I've got packages in that folder if you want to test it18:04
RST38hYes, General?18:04
johnxStskeeps, smacks of effort though18:04
GeneralAntillesRST38h, something about the wiki?18:05
Stskeepsjohnx: hm?18:05
RST38hGeneral: Yes, it looks like a bunch of howtos that have previously been in maemo.org development section are no longer there18:05
thopiekarhmmm18:05
RST38hThere is some kind of a short stub but no links18:05
johnxStskeeps, "it seems like it would take effort"18:05
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thopiekarwhat system is maemo-garage using?18:05
thopiekarsvn or cvn?18:05
lardmanqwerty12: ok, I'll have another go at qalculate this evening, I had problems last time compiling cln18:05
GeneralAntillesRST38h, /development is a Nokia issue, not a wiki issue.18:05
thopiekar*cvs18:06
qwerty12thopiekar, svn18:06
Stskeepsjohnx: .. or we make reference platform n800 :P18:06
RST38hGeneral: All the same, some realyl important stuff like writing a hello world app is now missing18:06
johnxStskeeps, that does seem more reasonable, doesn't it?18:06
RST38hNo idea why18:06
GeneralAntillesRST38h, well, it doesn't fall under my responsibility.18:06
GeneralAntillesFile a bug on bugzilla.18:06
thopiekaris there a howto to setting up it with eclipse18:06
Stskeepsjohnx: certainly a way to get things working..18:07
RST38hok18:08
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Stskeepsjohnx: so reference platform should be a n800 booting off sd as an example i guess18:08
Stskeeps(i don't think there's IDE support..)18:09
qwerty12lardman, btw, how's the tube map going?18:09
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johnxmaybe making a base jffs2 image and having any writes to it happen from inside qemu?18:10
johnxmaybe run dropbear on it by default for remote access?18:11
Stskeepsmm18:12
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Stskeepswell, i'm going to try with SD at first, to get things booting, probably easiest right now18:12
johnxagreed18:12
johnxperfectly reasonable18:12
johnxdid you package up maemo gtk+ from stage for ubuntu yet? otherwise I'll take a swing and tell you where I run into trouble18:12
lardmanqwerty12: well I pulled a later version of metromap and it works well18:12
RST38httg home18:13
Stskeepsjohnx: not yet, feel free18:13
lardmanqwerty12: doesn't look like there's much need to do anything18:13
qwerty12cool :)18:13
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lardmanI was meaning to try to contact the dev of the Garage project, I tried emailing him, next step is to ask on the maemo-devel list, and if no reply take ownership of the project18:13
Stskeepsjohnx: m-r sdk is a bit wonky atm. for some silly reason tcl-dev isn't installable and autoconf looks for tcl.m4...18:13
lardmanI've been pretty busy though, so was on the backburner18:13
Stskeeps(for god knows why, and why is autoconf redirected in sb2?)18:14
johnxStskeeps, I'll just package native for now18:14
Stskeepsk18:14
johnxmaybe get some distcc running18:14
Stskeepsi'll continue cooking and get a qemu going then18:14
johnxheh...that build-dep for libgtk2.0-0 is taking18:16
johnxa while...18:16
GeneralAntillessjgadsby, ahaha, I had forgotten about that post.18:16
sjgadsbyI was reminded of it as I fixed comma usage in a wiki page.18:17
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, ping.18:20
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* Stskeeps notes idly he's blind, didn't see n800/n810 in qemu-system-arm -M ?18:23
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johnxit might be in a patch, not upstream?18:23
qwerty12No, the N8x0 emulation stuff got added into QEMU HEAD18:24
Stskeepswhat qwerty12 said18:24
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GeneralAntillesI'm hoping making fun of the voting theory people will encourage them to contribute.18:24
Stskeepsdouze points for qgil, that was an amazing comment18:24
Stskeeps:P18:24
johnxGeneralAntilles, tell me how that works for you :P18:24
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I've mostly lost my ability to be civil towards allnameswereout.18:25
GeneralAntillesSo it better work.18:25
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GeneralAntillesOh, this is precious: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24768&page=418:27
GeneralAntillesandre__, WTF?!18:28
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sjgadsbyGeneralAntilles: That's shaping up to be a great thread. I hope it continues.18:28
Stskeepsnokia supports the tablet use on phone? scary, didn't know that18:29
Stskeepsi must call and ask about DSME.18:29
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Stskeeps:P18:29
johnxdon't they still make people take netiquette classes before letting them connect?18:29
johnxare we just letting *anyone* on the internet these days?18:29
Stskeepsyes, AOL ruined that for everyone18:29
GeneralAntillesAndre apparently hates all of the work we've been doing: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=240113&post=#618:29
qwerty12Ooh, bad boy.18:30
Stskeepswhy gronmayer, why not packrat? :P18:30
GeneralAntillesHopefully ferenc will be done with the package search by the end of the year. <_<18:30
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andre__GeneralAntilles, haha18:33
andre__not really. it's more that i described the current state.18:33
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GeneralAntillesWhen people ask about nuclear power, you don't just hand them a sample of U-238. :P18:34
andre__I DO! :-P18:34
* johnx wants his sample sized U-23818:34
andre__johnx, just come over here18:35
andre__i can prepare it as a gift for you18:35
GeneralAntillesStrangers with uranium18:35
* |rt| thinks you are all on the no fly list now18:36
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nemobah, u-238, not nearly energetic enough to power my laptop18:36
nemoI need something with a shorter half-life18:36
johnxno way, we're nuclear powers now. :) the no-fly-list only applies to small-timers18:37
andre__having uranium at home falls under the second amendment for me18:37
nemonuclear powered hot water heater!18:37
nemocan be just the same size as the old one.18:37
johnxwait, which one? freedom of religion?18:37
|rt|hehe the right to mutate arms18:37
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nemocan recirculate excess hot water to the pool18:37
GeneralAntilles|rt|, hehe, I was going to say. . . .18:38
sjgadsbyI blame Lowe's. If I'm not to be a nuclear power, they should stop selling me smoke detectors.18:38
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GeneralAntillessjgadsby, I thought they instituted a monthly limit for you. :P18:39
sjgadsbyBah, that's per store.18:39
|rt|there's always HomeDepot18:39
johnxthe sell little tritium glow-in-the-dark zipper pulls on brando (or thanko?). International shipping? no problem!18:39
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zaltaircould somebody send me to pastebin.com  /home/user/.mplayer/config file? i have some troubles with mplayer performance.. thanks..18:50
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nemo|rt|: meh. as long as I hold Lowe's stock I'm sticking with them :)18:53
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disco_stuhi19:09
Mouseyhi19:09
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disco_stuGeneralAntilles: are you around ?19:10
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GeneralAntillesdisco_stu, for a bit19:16
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disco_stuGeneralAntilles: is easier asking you than asking Google19:16
disco_stu:D:D19:16
Stskeepsqwerty12: got a handy lifeguard mtd around for qemu?19:17
woglindehe qwerty1219:17
Stskeepsjust wanting to verify stuff actually -works-19:17
disco_stui was wondering if you know how to send sms with the tablet through my phone19:17
qwerty12Stskeeps, I sent you my mtd1 dumps with lifeguard off last time.19:17
disco_stumy phone is s6034d19:17
qwerty12hi woglinde19:17
disco_stus603rd**19:17
GeneralAntillesphonelink, don't know any more than that.19:17
Stskeepsqwerty12: ah, didn't know that was it :) ta19:17
disco_stuphonelink doesnt work with it19:17
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Stskeepsqwerty12: how's arguing with ubuntu going?19:22
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johnxdisco_stu, why do you need to send it through your phone?19:23
qwerty12Stskeeps, Not very well. I've pinned down the older network manager but my wifi connection is still bolloxed when connecting after a upgrade to intrepid. I'll copy my /etc/apt/preferences onto my windows partition and pin down ndiswrapper & wpasupplicant when I reformat the ubuntu partition again.19:24
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woglindeqwerty12 hm whats wrong with the new network-manager?19:25
woglindeit now can even umts and gsm modems19:25
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qwerty12woglinde, it doesn't agree with ndiswrapper at all. It will take ages to connect (fine, I can wait for that) but 10 mins later, the connection will fuck up and everything will timeout and removing and reconnecting will not fix it and I can't even ifdown it because the new network manager won't add entries to /etc/network/interfaces like the old one did.19:26
mgedminin theory19:26
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johnxqwerty12, why not go around network manager and just manually use /etc/network/interfaces ?19:28
qwerty12johnx, I tried to no avail19:28
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qwerty12I tried network manager from svn in hardy a long time ago and it shitfucked my connection even then.19:29
johnxany entry in /etc/network/interfaces should put it under manual control19:29
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woglindeqwerty12 ndiswrapper suckz19:30
lardmanmmm, just had a ride in an Aston Martin, very cool19:30
qwerty12woglinde, I know but I have no choice :/19:30
woglindejohnx *g* yes guessnet with ifplugd and wpa_supplicant rockz19:30
woglindeqwerty12???? you buyed a fuckuped wlan card?19:31
qwerty12woglinde, yep19:31
woglindeapache2 suckz19:31
woglindechecking for /dev/zero... configure: error: cannot check for file existence when cross compiling19:31
GeneralAntilleslardman, DB9?19:32
lardmanVantage19:32
GeneralAntillesNice car19:32
lardmanyep, very cool, nice noise :)19:32
GeneralAntillesA V12 is a wonderful thing.19:33
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lardmanbeggars can't be choosers ;)19:33
GeneralAntillesitT frequently suggests otherwise. :P19:34
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lardmanlol19:35
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johnxbeggars who are choosers often end up starving beggars19:35
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disco_stujohnx: my phone is gsm, n800 doesnt19:42
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johnxwhy not just send SMS messages via a web site?19:42
disco_stuin my country it is not reliable19:42
disco_stuand sometimes you are in zones without wifi19:42
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l7Pit's funny that the thumbpad is actually easier to use with one thumb and a stylus19:44
l7s/Pit's/it's/19:45
infobotl7 meant: it's funny that the thumbpad is actually easier to use with one thumb and a stylus19:45
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Stskeepsjohnx: woo, progress, jffs2 image booting.. craptacularly19:47
johnxhawt!19:47
Stskeepsseemingily mkfs.jffs2 can now make hard links in jffs, but diablo kernel can't take it ;)19:47
johnxhaha...and I'm torturing my zaurus as a build machine while I figure out what's up with my n800 not wanting to play nice with fbcon19:48
johnxactually, the control for stage's gtk+ looks like it doesn't need much hacking19:48
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zaltairwhen you play video (800kbps 600x350 resolution, MPEG-4, MP3 audio) with mplayer, how much it takes CPU ? 90% ?19:57
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johnxshould be a little less I'd expect19:58
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GeneralAntillesOr more, depending on the amount of movement on screen20:00
zaltairok, i was expecting more less ~ 30%.... hmmm  should i convert videos to internet tablet? it is better?20:02
johnx400 pixels across is a nice size20:03
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zaltairand a performance ?  which one of codecs is better?20:05
johnxmpeg4 is good20:05
zaltairok i will use http://maemo.org/downloads/product/PC/tablet-encode/ ...20:06
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Khertan_n810Hi !20:14
HaviYo!20:15
* Khertan_n810 is just uploading is first home applet where font, size, color and background color can be set in preferences ...20:15
Havizomg20:15
Khertan_n810now i need to do it for all my applet20:15
Haviyay20:16
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johnxhey Havi :D20:18
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Khertan_n810:)20:19
Khertan_n810arg first bug found20:20
GAN800Stupid Havi20:20
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Havi:<20:21
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Khertan_n810bug found !20:25
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l7what bug?20:26
HaviStupid GAN80020:27
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Khertan_n810in HomeTask 0.9.020:31
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Khertan_n810homeip 0.9.1 uploaded to autobuilder queue20:34
Khertan_n810:)20:34
Khertan_n810if someone use it i think you will like the new version20:34
Khertan_n810you can now customize setting20:34
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woglindehi Khertan20:48
Khertan_n810hi woglinde20:53
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Khertan_n810taking my car ... bye20:54
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dmzhey, anyone here connected n810 to a verizon broadband plan?21:13
dmzw/out bluetooth tether to cell phone (usb modem)?21:14
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kuphi! how can i use an image on a button with pygtk? i have code that works on my desktop pc but not on the nit. there are no errors or warnings23:06
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rm_youblah23:23
rm_youdidn't come home for a week and my computer rebooted itself >_<23:23
* rm_you is appalled that he wasn't even idling IRC23:23
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qwerty12_N800heh23:23
rm_youI miss my old life ... sort of23:24
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rm_youprogramming and chatting in #maemo all day :P23:24
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rm_youno time these days :(23:24
rm_youmaybe during thanksgiving or christmas break! ^_^23:24
rm_youtime to go be a slave now.23:25
* rm_you leaves23:25
qwerty12_N800see ya rm_you :(23:25
* rm_you waves at qwerty12_N800, GeneralAntilles, johnx, lcuk, jott and others23:25
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RST38hrm_me23:27
* qwerty12_N800 rm -rf's RST38h 23:27
RST38hrm_you: have you got married or what? =)23:27
* RST38h pulls two keys out of qwerty and makes him German23:28
RST38hHello, azerty1223:28
qwerty12_N800Hmm, azerty, eh?23:28
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* qwerty12_N800 rm -rf's this fake bitch! :P23:28
lcukhiya rm_you \o23:30
LinuxCodeevening lcuk23:31
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lcukbloody hell, hello lc23:31
qwerty12_N800ello lcuk23:31
LinuxCodehaha23:32
lcukhiya qwerty12_N800, my god [WHIZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ] its a noisey friday [BANG] night23:32
LinuxCodewhy the bloody hell bit ?23:32
* LinuxCode lights a rocket as he types the message23:33
lcukcos rm_you is a bit of a stranger like you23:33
qwerty12_N800lcuk, hehe, we've had our share of fireworks for the past few days :D23:33
lcukyeah qwerty, i just got woke up by a massive one, damn late starters23:34
LinuxCodeI am strange too mate23:34
LinuxCoderofl23:34
LinuxCodej/k23:34
lcukits ok lc, your actions speak louder than words :)23:35
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LinuxCodehaha23:35
LinuxCode;-|23:35
LinuxCode;-p23:35
lcukwhat are folks upto then tonight23:36
qwerty12_N800ʇsǝɓuɐɹʇs ǝɥʇ ɯ͵I23:36
LinuxCodeabout to make dinner23:36
LinuxCodeand helping some fedora peepz23:36
LinuxCodeself ?23:36
lcukand there ladies and gentlemen is the reason why digital in the home is dangerous23:36
lcuki just woke up after dozing off earlier23:37
lcuki have a few ideas for code i want to try, but will probably just piss the time away havin a laff somewhere23:37
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LinuxCodelcuk, haha23:38
LinuxCodecan I join in ?23:38
LinuxCodeI need a drink23:38
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lcukno, get your own channel :P23:38
LinuxCodeok fine23:38
lcukgood idea actually, ive finished my toast and yogurt now23:38
LinuxCoderofl23:38
lcukbrb23:39
lcukback now23:41
lcukshould i sue my milkman btw23:41
lcuki just did what i always do, opened milk drink from bottle23:41
lcuki wouldv made my missus proud though23:42
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lcuki started to drink from the bottle and thought "that feels wrong"23:42
lcukthe entire top of the bottle was missing and i had my gob ontop oof vsharp raw glass :S23:43
lcuksuffice to say i brought my milk in a glass23:43
qwerty12_N800:/23:43
LinuxCodelcuk, lool23:43
LinuxCodeId spank my partner if they would do that23:43
RST38humgh23:43
LinuxCodebreed your caries bacteria in drinks23:44
lcukLinuxCode, why wait for a reason, spank your partner every day23:44
LinuxCodehaha23:44
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lcukand LinuxCode my method is best, 1 pint of milk is not a multiuser experience23:44
LinuxCodehaha23:44
lcukopen, drink23:44
lcuksaves on glasses normally23:44
tank-manwant a reason not to drink from the milk carton/bottle? expired milk/chunks23:45
* RST38h , of all things in this story, is mostly impressed by the fact that lcuk has a milkman23:45
tank-mancant see it till its too late23:45
lcuktank-man, ahhh you see, fresh milk every day and clear glass bottles23:45
qwerty12_N800tank-man, stop that! you're making me thirsty23:45
lcukRST38h, local economy is vital23:45
lcukcommunity :)23:46
qwerty12_N800RST38h, lol, i haven't seen one for years round here :(23:46
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lcukbesides, all of are so pissed off with not having milk for cornflakes and we are all so lazy and we all hate the big bottles23:46
RST38hqwerty: Same here, but then we live at 16th floor =)23:46
qwerty12_N800:)23:47
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lcukRST38h, have you ever poured a drink from that height23:47
RST38hAnd the nearest milk cow probably lives somewhere in Istra23:47
RST38hI normally use rotten eggs for that, lcuk23:47
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lcukrottten eggs dont do the effect i was thinking off, but would most likely score a few points23:48
RST38hdepends on what you hit23:48
lcukyeah zombies are good targets23:48
RST38hand 5 bicyclists in a row give you +5000 bonus23:49
lcukheh, thats like the hari's in original gta23:49
lcukat 16 floors up, the eggs must reach terminal velocity23:50
RST38hagain depends on whom you are trying to terminate with them23:50
lcukbest thing i ever saw thrown out of a high rise was a paper plane, some geezer recorded it and watched it fly around new york (i think) for ages23:50
* RST38h does that, every now and then23:51
lcukheh23:51
lcukare you near the top of your block?23:51
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RST38hWhen I was a kid, we actually lit them, but I am a good boy now23:51
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lcukheh, but why would you waste a good torch23:52
RST38hlcuk: Depends. Most buildings here are 25 stories high now23:52
lcukcould you cope with being higher?23:52
RST38hBut our windows overlook a park23:52
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lcukor does it not matter now you are already way up23:52
RST38hlcuk: not a problem for me23:52
RST38hat least this building does not sway23:53
lcukdoes your block rock in the wind23:53
* lcuk hates sleeping in buildings that move23:53
LinuxCodelcuk, reminds me of sutton23:53
LinuxCodeused to live top floor when I was 323:54
RST38hlcuk: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=%D0%9B%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B0+34,+%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B2%D0%B0&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=60.635244,76.113281&ie=UTF8&ll=55.856823,37.493795&spn=0.002668,0.004646&t=h&z=17&iwloc=addr23:54
LinuxCodeanyway time for dinner23:54
lcukalrighty lc, what you havin?23:54
RST38hlcuk: there is no way this thing can move23:54
* Stskeeps 's apartment block would stand after a nuclear blast.23:55
lcukahhh, its not a tower, its a cornerstone23:55
RST38hlcuk: three x25fl towers + 9fl connecting block23:55
lcukthe one on the other side of the park looks like its self standing23:55
RST38hyes except it is not a park, it's residential area23:56
RST38hthe park is to the south23:56
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lcukcool, i just zoomed out, i knew moscow was big, but didnt really think about how big23:58
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lcukStskeeps, how far up are you?23:59
RST38hlcuk: ~15mil people, ~25mil with the area23:59

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