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| Pyrhos | modem de mes c*****es | 00:15 |
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| pupnik | hellomoo | 00:23 |
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| pupnik | so.. windows seems to be unable to deal with spotty umts connections.... | 00:26 |
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| * pupnik is sitting on a 3rd story porch and things working nicely | 00:27 | |
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| lardman | what can I use to intercept html form post event data? | 00:28 |
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| lcuk | on device? | 00:30 |
| lardman | anywhere really | 00:30 |
| pupnik | nice to see u lardman and lcuk | 00:30 |
| lcuk | well you could use a packet sniffer | 00:30 |
| lcuk | hiya pupnik | 00:31 |
| pupnik | wireshark | 00:31 |
| lardman | hi pupnik, how are you? | 00:31 |
| pupnik | happy as a slowly boiling frog! ..... mmmmm warm | 00:31 |
| pupnik | :) ... new toys.... | 00:31 |
| lcuk | ahhh you DID visit the red light zone in amsterdam then | 00:31 |
| moontiger | slowly boiling frog??!! | 00:32 |
| * moontiger laughs | 00:32 | |
| lardman | Ethereal me thninks should do the job | 00:32 |
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| lcuk | lardman, :D my berlin presentations up | 00:32 |
| pupnik | no just picked up a great deal on umts/hsdpa plus an acer aspire one... 0 euro downpayment, 500 euro worth of hardware, and 24 month contract @ 25.50/mo | 00:33 |
| lardman | lcuk: good stuff | 00:33 |
| pupnik | wireshark = ethereal | 00:33 |
| pupnik | url lcuk ? | 00:33 |
| lardman | pupnik: thanks | 00:33 |
| lcuk | pupnik, top of maemo.org | 00:33 |
| pupnik | nice :) | 00:33 |
| lcuk | yeah simon, i deffo did better than linuxtag :D | 00:34 |
| moontiger | pupnik, did you get the pink one :)~ | 00:34 |
| * moontiger ducks | 00:34 | |
| pupnik | got the last one they had - white... nice little device! no bluetooth but .... | 00:34 |
| pupnik | i did get a pink strap for the umts stick (tmobile) | 00:34 |
| moontiger | not as pocketable as n8x0 tho right? | 00:34 |
| pupnik | no but hopefully will get the umts usb stick working on tablet soon | 00:35 |
| lcuk | gtg anyway, back later | 00:36 |
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| * pupnik watching lcuk presenting liqbase now | 00:36 | |
| qwerty12_N80O | pupnik, have any idea what model the stick is? i know dannym compiled a lot of modules for umts sticks | 00:37 |
| pupnik | webnwalk from tmobile used to be huawei E169 - no idea what this is.... | 00:37 |
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| pupnik | may have to buy a 2nd stick | 00:37 |
| qwerty12_N80O | ah, ok | 00:37 |
| pupnik | very nice qwerty12_N80O | 00:38 |
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| pupnik | hey how did you guys get the beamer thing running at maemo summit? very nice | 00:39 |
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| Mousey | beamer? | 00:41 |
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| pupnik | lcd projoector | 00:42 |
| pupnik | oh well very nice demo lcuk | 00:43 |
| pupnik | i like how you manage screen real estate... the way things are big and use all of the screen | 00:43 |
| pupnik | the 'menu metaphor' is oldschool pc-appendage | 00:44 |
| pupnik | vestigal imo | 00:44 |
| Mousey | like tailbone! | 00:44 |
| Mousey | where is this alleged presentation? | 00:44 |
| pupnik | http://linuxuk.org/maemo_lightning_part3 | 00:45 |
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| hellwolf | I installed contactinfos, but when it reports : error while loading shared libraries: libhildonwidgets.so.0 | 01:00 |
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| pupnik | hi hellwolf.... did you try googling the error? | 01:05 |
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| guillermo | why in diablo is missing minesweeper game? | 01:08 |
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| qwerty12_N80O | because this isn't windows :p | 01:08 |
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| qwerty12_N80O | i think maemosweeper or something is in extras[-devel] | 01:10 |
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| guillermo | it's true. thanks | 01:15 |
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| pupnik | argh this winxp is killing me - constantly hitting the hard drive, despite 1GB ram... wtf is it doing? no idea... | 01:27 |
| pupnik | i HATE that | 01:27 |
| macoute | pupnik: try and change to vista :D | 01:27 |
| * pupnik opens his freezer of trout | 01:28 | |
| macoute | my vista is slow as hell w/ 3 GB RAM and a quite decent dualcore | 01:28 |
| macoute | PLUS, taskmanager shows free memory and 1-2% cpu utilization | 01:28 |
| pupnik | "evil inside" | 01:28 |
| macoute | so, a million dollar question is whats happening? | 01:28 |
| macoute | as I surely dont know. | 01:28 |
| jaska | "progress" | 01:28 |
| pupnik | i'm sure a win guru would know | 01:29 |
| macoute | i really would be keen to migrate back to linux | 01:29 |
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| lardman | pupnik: head here and get something that will tell you http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/default.aspx | 01:29 |
| pupnik | ty sir | 01:29 |
| macoute | ive been windows-only (on desktop) for like 4 months | 01:29 |
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| pupnik | sounds like... someone held a gun to your head macoute | 01:30 |
| pupnik | wow nice link lardman | 01:30 |
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| lardman | I presume it will be possible to fake an HTTP POST event using Python | 01:30 |
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| lardman | yes, apparently so; good | 01:31 |
| pupnik | hah that sysintitnals siite is keeling ffox | 01:31 |
| lardman | hmm, works ok for me with ff3 | 01:32 |
| lardman | 3.0.3 to be precise | 01:32 |
| pupnik | hahahaha mcafee internet security suite just popped up "restart computer to finish installation of these programs" | 01:32 |
| pupnik | i didn't install anything | 01:32 |
| pupnik | Microsoft: ASS TO MOUTH | 01:33 |
| macoute | pupnik: my boss did :D | 01:35 |
| macoute | well, he's so out of the ict-pictures that if i said that could we change to linux, he actually would agree | 01:35 |
| pupnik | that's how it goes... | 01:35 |
| macoute | but then, id need to work 25 hours a day for 8 years | 01:36 |
| pupnik | what is ict-pictures? | 01:36 |
| macoute | ICT = information communication technologies, i suppose | 01:36 |
| macoute | i meant, that he doesnt know a thing about computers | 01:36 |
| pupnik | ah, new acronym for me | 01:38 |
| pupnik | heh | 01:39 |
| pupnik | bttery gone on the acer | 01:39 |
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| pupnik | lulz... p.o.s... | 01:39 |
| pupnik | bbl | 01:39 |
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| lardman | does python gpsbt use the generic interface to the gps - i.e. it can use internal or external devices? | 01:42 |
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| lcuk | you're on a mission simon :D | 01:43 |
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| lardman | yeah, thought I'd wrap the tube/bus route finder webpage in a nice easy to use app | 01:43 |
| lcuk | :D nice one | 01:43 |
| lardman | as I was in Londinium at the weekend and could have done with something quick (rather than needing to open the browser) + GPS integration would be cool | 01:44 |
| lcuk | does each route have to be manually entered for now (would assume so) or have bus companies started releasing info | 01:44 |
| lardman | Transport for London handle the bus routes and tube ones, looks pretty good | 01:44 |
| lcuk | with gps coords i mean | 01:45 |
| lardman | http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk/user/XSLT_TRIP_REQUEST2?language=en | 01:45 |
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| lardman | so will need a location db of tube stops/bus stops, or a reverse lookup of the postcode/address | 01:46 |
| lardman | should be doable anyway | 01:47 |
| lcuk | yer, might be an idea to see if its recorded on osm perhaps | 01:47 |
| lcuk | if not, the first time a user uses the system they could offer coords | 01:48 |
| lardman | otherwise a google query should return what'd needed I guess | 01:48 |
| yacoob | lardman, there was an excellent program for public transport planning on PalmOS | 01:48 |
| lardman | yacoob: do you have a name? | 01:48 |
| lcuk | Métro is your free guide on Palm to public transport systems worldwide (400 cities covered now). | 01:48 |
| lardman | MetrO | 01:48 |
| yacoob | lardman, I don't know what kind of functionality you have in mind, but having a general 'bus/tram/train/metro planner' would be awesome | 01:48 |
| lardman | cool | 01:48 |
| lardman | yacoob: yeah, that was my thought | 01:49 |
| yacoob | lardman, http://www.szulat.republika.pl/przewodas/ - good luck in finding things out :D | 01:49 |
| lcuk | :D my basic map jpeg did this for me in berlin - i hope something proper works for the next summit ;) | 01:49 |
| yacoob | (yeah, it's in .pl :/) | 01:49 |
| macoute | who writes polish? no-one undestands that one :) | 01:49 |
| lardman | hmm Polish, one of the many languages I don't (yet ;)) know | 01:49 |
| lcuk | http://www.nanika.net/Metro/ | 01:49 |
| macoute | i think you should start with Helsinkis tram/metro/bus-guide :) | 01:50 |
| lcuk | i-Métro is a route calculator on (almost) every subway system in the world and many tram & bus systems too! | 01:50 |
| lcuk | online version there lardman | 01:50 |
| macoute | actually, its already ready as a www-service, so coding would be simple | 01:50 |
| macoute | though offline-usage would need something more | 01:50 |
| yacoob | whoa, metro has improved since! | 01:51 |
| yacoob | ...too bad I don't need it anymore :) | 01:51 |
| yacoob | (nor Przewodas) | 01:51 |
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| yacoob | Dublin's bus system is most hellish abomination I've ever seen, and thus unusable, DART is simple enough to keep it in my head. | 01:52 |
| macoute | yacoob: actually, is that http://www.szulat.republika.pl/przewodas/ some official page? | 01:52 |
| yacoob | (plus, I've made a stylish mac osx widget to display next trains :) | 01:52 |
| lardman | nice | 01:52 |
| macoute | ah, no :) | 01:52 |
| yacoob | macoute, yup. That's author's page. I don't think it's being developed. | 01:52 |
| macoute | yacoob: yup, i thought it was something like the official pages of your public transportation company | 01:53 |
| macoute | :D | 01:53 |
| yacoob | ahhh, no no no :) | 01:53 |
| macoute | but i like this one http://aikataulut.ytv.fi/reittiopas/fi/ | 01:54 |
| yacoob | best kind of cooperation I've ever seen from transportation company was 'well... we don't really mind those geeks scraping our website and putting data offline' | 01:54 |
| macoute | in finnish, but so simple that you dont need to know any finnish :) | 01:54 |
| yacoob | In one case they've even provided csv dumps of data | 01:54 |
| macoute | on below, you can have your own routes presaved, the red square is exception in traffic, and then there is from and where fields | 01:55 |
| lcuk | its quite common yacoob, people like to know timetables and routes and getting more folks informed means they are usable | 01:55 |
| lardman | looks like i-metro also scrapes the data for Helsinki | 01:55 |
| macoute | i-metro? | 01:55 |
| lcuk | scrapes or is given | 01:55 |
| macoute | for mac? | 01:55 |
| lcuk | http://imetro.nanika.net/metro | 01:55 |
| lardman | scrapes for the online version I guess | 01:55 |
| lcuk | for web or wap | 01:56 |
| yacoob | lardman, in my opinion having offline planner is way better, but that's only me | 01:56 |
| macoute | the Helsinki metro does not need any help :D | 01:56 |
| lardman | but will need to look at the html/js and see what there is to see | 01:56 |
| macoute | there is one track west, other one east | 01:56 |
| lcuk | timetables? | 01:56 |
| lardman | yacoob: yes, but time consuming for whichever city | 01:56 |
| lcuk | its cold up there | 01:56 |
| yacoob | lardman, how about downloading metro, and using their data? | 01:56 |
| lcuk | cos they offer a service | 01:57 |
| macoute | lcuk: our stations are mostly underground plus the metros go every 3-6 minutes | 01:57 |
| lcuk | if you want the data i assume they will tell you to go upstream | 01:57 |
| macoute | but imetro offers metro+tram+ferries+buses | 01:57 |
| macoute | so thats cool | 01:57 |
| macoute | im sure that helsinki will give you all the data you need :) | 01:57 |
| lardman | yacoob: yes, that's an interesting option | 01:58 |
| yacoob | they might not like it... at the same time, you might just talk to them about coding maemo version. | 01:58 |
| yacoob | in any case, I need some sleep, or I'll be zombiewalking tomorrow. | 01:59 |
| yacoob | night. | 01:59 |
| lcuk | b) i-MetrO is also available to other web services providers. These providers must first obtain a written (e-mail) authorization from the "AUTHORS" to include the "PRODUCT" in their own service. | 01:59 |
| lardman | same here, night | 01:59 |
| lcuk | i-MetrO may then be integrated in an external service, provided that a) its use remains entirely free of charge for the end user, b) no revenue may be derived, directly or indirectly from the integration | 01:59 |
| lcuk | gnite lard | 01:59 |
| lardman | lcuk: offline routing would be good, with updates online is available | 01:59 |
| lardman | anyway, I'll look into it tomorrow, time for bed | 01:59 |
| lardman | night all | 01:59 |
| lcuk | yes - they do have an offline version | 02:00 |
| lcuk | gnite | 02:00 |
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| macoute | lcuk: who? imetro? | 02:02 |
| lcuk | yes | 02:02 |
| macoute | hmm, sounds cool | 02:02 |
| macoute | but to bed i go | 02:02 |
| lcuk | heh | 02:03 |
| lcuk | gnite macoute | 02:03 |
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| leachim6 | I can't get canola to start | 02:33 |
| leachim6 | I installed it from maemo-extras | 02:34 |
| leachim6 | I click it ... and it spins for a while, then...nothing | 02:34 |
| * pupnik hasn't used canola yet | 02:35 | |
| pupnik | can you maybe start it from the command-line - see if it spits-out an error leachim6 ? | 02:36 |
| leachim6 | yeah, I'll do that...sorry for being so vague | 02:36 |
| leachim6 | :) | 02:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | canola -vvv | 02:36 |
| Mousey | pupnik IS MISSING OUT | 02:37 |
| * Mousey is avid canola <3er | 02:37 | |
| l7 | canola's so slow for me | 02:38 |
| l7 | it has a nice podcast interface though | 02:38 |
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| lcuk | does canola get faster after its completely scanned all your media? | 02:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | ? | 02:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | It scans at startup. | 02:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | It doesn't scan when in-use | 02:39 |
| lcuk | what if i plug in memory card with it runnin? | 02:39 |
| lcuk | or run it as soon as its installed | 02:39 |
| pupnik | omg! the windows XP task-bar refusing to rehide bug STILL HASNT BEEN FIXED! | 02:40 |
| * pupnik falls all overhimself laughing | 02:40 | |
| pupnik | and i thought i was slacking... | 02:40 |
| lcuk | are you sure thats a bug in yourversion pupnik - with a MID doesnt it make sense that you cant just swipe near it | 02:40 |
| pupnik | dunno lcuk - i've been dealing with the win taskbar refusing to stay hidden for like 5 years or so | 02:41 |
| lcuk | designed for touchscreen - they were ahead of their time :P ;) | 02:42 |
| pupnik | hahaha | 02:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, probably nothing. | 02:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I'm not the right person to ask. | 02:43 |
| lcuk | i simply recall it not havin any media and i couldnt find a way to make it show up even after i selected the right base path | 02:44 |
| lcuk | l7, you say you like the podcasts, do you have a central place to download them into? is there any way to get at itunes data from wifi/usb nokia? | 02:45 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, they're just RSS feeds | 02:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Add the RSS URL to whatever aggregator you want to use. | 02:53 |
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| lcuk | yeah, but unlike the fruity kind you have to manage them and select them and download them from tablet - instead of it just being a quick sync operation | 02:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Seen gpodder? | 02:54 |
| lcuk | no, but i will if it can do even some of what i have just said | 02:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Look at the name. | 02:55 |
| lcuk | .nod. | 02:55 |
| * GeneralAntilles is pissy from his nap. | 02:56 | |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm tempted to cook up a whole thing of bacon and slap it on some bread | 02:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | I know I'll die of a coronary, though. | 02:56 |
| lcuk | its called a pig | 02:56 |
| lcuk | and you can never die from bacon overdose | 02:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, that "pig" is currently sliced into small strips and vacuum-sealed in plastic in my fridge. :P | 02:57 |
| lcuk | if you do happen to die, you simply know you used too much bread - next time use thin crust | 02:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't have any lettuce, anyway. | 02:57 |
| lcuk | i had a mega BT for same reason at weekend | 02:57 |
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| lcuk | lettuce just hides the bacon | 02:58 |
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| lcuk | well that just stomps on my parade | 03:00 |
| lcuk | its not for windows, but ill get it once i get a linux desktop :) thanks for the heads up GeneralAntilles | 03:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just use it on the tablet. | 03:01 |
| pupnik | http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f247/karen8577/funny-pictures-bacon-not-done.jpg | 03:01 |
| lcuk | thats what i want to get away from - i would prefer some nice front end to manage my media and filter down what i want for a trip | 03:02 |
| lcuk | pupnik, :D:D:D | 03:02 |
| pupnik | :) | 03:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, then just grab whatever Windows podcast manager you want and use a cronjob to sftp it to the tablet. | 03:03 |
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| lcuk | not exactly the interface i had in mind GeneralAntilles ;) | 03:05 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Why? | 03:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | It does exactly what you're after | 03:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | You don't even have to do anything once it's set up. | 03:06 |
| lcuk | thought the backend may very well end up working that way, i doubt its usable by my 6 year old | 03:06 |
| * lcuk is looking for a more rounded experience | 03:07 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Once it's set up | 03:07 |
| * lcuk would like to incorporate jaffas encode thingy and podcasts and music searches and sketching stuff and photos etc | 03:07 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Your 6-year-old just has to add his favorite feeds to the manager. :P | 03:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Podcasts are rarely outside of the tablet's capabilities. | 03:07 |
| lcuk | podcasts are just music files? | 03:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or video files. | 03:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's just an RSS feed that points at media files. | 03:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | There's no magic to them. | 03:08 |
| lcuk | heh yeah - most of the podcasts i hear about are audio | 03:09 |
| * lcuk listens to a lot of radio | 03:09 | |
| GeneralAntilles | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podcast | 03:09 |
| lcuk | yeah i know technical aspects - just didnt engage brain | 03:10 |
| lcuk | so jaffas convert WILL be useful | 03:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Like I said, most podcasts don't really tax the tablet's video playback abilities | 03:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Maybe some of the h.264 stuff | 03:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | but that's not particularly common. | 03:11 |
| lcuk | yeah, but its also capacity | 03:11 |
| lcuk | i have perhaps 500mb free and available - i could get my weekly casts into there easily and listen at work or wherever | 03:11 |
| lcuk | but you might want to put 32gb | 03:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, are you watching video podcasts? | 03:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | An hour-long MP3 podcast is about 25MB | 03:12 |
| pupnik | at | 03:12 |
| pupnik | 32kb/s | 03:12 |
| lcuk | no i dont watch much video on device - prefer big tv | 03:13 |
| lcuk | technically i dont listen often, but if it can be configured and managed easily i might: tracy uses itunes downstairs and it works (she has a tiny 1gb nano but a massive collection) | 03:14 |
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| GeneralAntilles | pupnik, well, I've got a 59 minute podcast from This American Life ah 64Kbps that's 27MB. | 03:14 |
| lcuk | compression varies | 03:15 |
| pupnik | btw, Lew Rockwell has done a great series of podasts relevant to the financial crisis http://www.lewrockwell.com/podcast/ | 03:15 |
| lcuk | depends on content | 03:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, it's not variable compression. | 03:15 |
| pupnik | who has xcalc handy | 03:15 |
| pupnik | nm.. | 03:16 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, 1minute of silence takes a lot less disk space than 1 minute of busy noise | 03:16 |
| pupnik | not with CBR encoding | 03:16 |
| pupnik | CBR = constant bitrate | 03:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, it's constant bitrate. . . . | 03:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | You're thinking of VBR | 03:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which isn't what this is. | 03:17 |
| lcuk | no | 03:18 |
| lcuk | im thinking of mp3 | 03:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | No | 03:18 |
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| GeneralAntilles | You're thinking of a VBR encoded MP3 | 03:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which isn't all MP3s | 03:18 |
| lcuk | all that happens with CBR and VBR is that the resolution and available fidelity changes | 03:18 |
| lcuk | but the fact remains a silent piece of music is more compressable than a noisy one | 03:19 |
| pupnik | a rare case where lcuk is wrong.... /me enjoys | 03:19 |
| lcuk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3 | 03:19 |
| lcuk | :) im not wrong | 03:19 |
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| pupnik | i know it's more compressable | 03:20 |
| pupnik | the fact is, that a cbr encoded mp3 will consume a fixed bitrate per second of audio | 03:20 |
| pupnik | er, not strictily true - but mostly true | 03:20 |
| pupnik | there is the 'bit bucket' which allows for some variation in even cbr streams, but that's minor | 03:21 |
| lcuk | its exactly the same as jpeg in this regard | 03:21 |
| lcuk | a jpeg with low bitrate/quality setting looks blocky and ugly/sounds horrid and loses detail, but silence is silence and compresses to almost nothing (repeat this block 200 times) vs make one block to be 27432734234 and the next to be 2384283462 and the next to be 238742374 | 03:22 |
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| pupnik | lcuk, what does "constant bitrate" mean? | 03:23 |
| lcuk | that the resolution does not change for the duration of the track | 03:23 |
| pupnik | 'resolution' is not an accurate term in this context. the word is 'bitrate' | 03:24 |
| lcuk | that does not indicate how many blocks you send | 03:24 |
| lcuk | resolution is - its the number of bits you can use to store the waveform data for a particular instance in time | 03:24 |
| pupnik | ok, so we have a 128kb/s CBR mp3 stream. how many bits does that use in 2 seconds? | 03:24 |
| pupnik | 256kb/s | 03:25 |
| pupnik | whether encoding a sinewave or white noise... | 03:25 |
| pupnik | s/256kb/s/256kb | 03:25 |
| lcuk | so ALL music that is compressed with that 128kb CBR file that last 2 minutes will always be the same length? | 03:25 |
| pupnik | same size yes | 03:25 |
| pupnik | vbr is an enhancement to mp3 that does what you describe | 03:26 |
| pupnik | lowers the actual data rate to match the information in the source | 03:26 |
| pupnik | man it's great to be back online... | 03:28 |
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| GeneralAntilles | pupnik, is the world a happier place yet? | 03:32 |
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| pupnik | the world in my head is, bigtimtime | 03:33 |
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| pupnik | excepting the fact that i'm on winxp at the moment, and the fucking status bar just decided to obscure my text entry field | 03:33 |
| pupnik | what have you been up to GeneralAntilles - looks like you're a real motor in the maemo world now | 03:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Crackin' the whip and making things happen. ;) | 03:34 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Well, until important people disappear right from under my nose. | 03:34 |
| pupnik | thappy to hear that... sounds fun | 03:34 |
| * GeneralAntilles shakes his fist in the air at jott and guenther. | 03:34 | |
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| pupnik | cracking the whip http://pupnik.de/arbeiten.gif | 03:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 03:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | With WinXP? | 03:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd figure you to be the absolute last person to ever use WinXP. | 03:36 |
| pupnik | was preinstalled... testing the new hardware atm | 03:37 |
| pupnik | need to be reminded how much i hate it every few months | 03:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Aha | 03:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 03:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | I haven't been reminded in a while | 03:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | last time I used it seriously was in high school | 03:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | I just have to take the occasional exam in Firefox on XP at school lately. | 03:38 |
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| pupnik | nice | 03:40 |
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| lcuk | http://www.mp3-converter.com/mp3codec/huffman_coding.htm ;) | 03:44 |
| lcuk | a raw uncompressed frame of mp3 data at a particular bitrate consumes a fixed amount of memory, but prior to writing to disk it is encoded using huffman | 03:45 |
| pupnik | wow | 03:47 |
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| lcuk | sorry pupnik :P i just had to follow my thinking - i knew huffman was involved somewhere along the way and has the effect i described | 03:48 |
| pupnik | thanks, i did not know that. | 03:50 |
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| * lcuk resolves to leave mp3 coding to lardman | 03:52 | |
| lcuk | anyway, bedtime - gnite pupnik, GeneralAntilles | 03:53 |
| pupnik | lcuk, look how much cbr bitrate varies in *practice* though... http://kaosradioaustin.org/station/archives/6 | 03:53 |
| pupnik | ok gnite | 03:53 |
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| lcuk | pupnik, i was wrong. the frame size is not changed by the compression | 04:09 |
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| * GeneralAntilles waits for the trademark page to load. | 04:20 | |
| GeneralAntilles | I should get a stopwatch to time these things. | 04:20 |
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| joyious | Hi, is the ALSA driver usable on N810 ? | 04:44 |
| joyious | I'm trying to using the ALSA driver but no sound output | 04:45 |
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| RST38h | 8-year-old loses control of submachine gun, suicides: "I gave permission for him to fire the Uzi. I watched several other children and adults use it. It's a small weapon, and Christopher was comfortable with guns. There were larger machine guns with much more recoil, and we avoided those." | 07:46 |
| RST38h | General, that is another rock into your backyard =) | 07:47 |
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| camel_liu | hi, everybody | 07:48 |
| camel_liu | My N800 cannot connect to maemo extras, report '302 Found' | 07:50 |
| camel_liu | When I installed maemo SDK, I met same problem. | 07:50 |
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| camel_liu | Could anyone give a help? | 07:53 |
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| camel_liu | johnx, How can I avoid the problem of '302 Found'? | 07:56 |
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| l7 | has anyone noticed that battery life estimates don't refresh until you reboot? | 08:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's not true. | 08:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Rebooting is just a huge power drain. | 08:07 |
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| l7 | hrm, my tablet was showing 8 days 5 hours just a moment ago | 08:11 |
| l7 | after rebooting it shows 10 days / 7 hours | 08:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | The battery applet is mostly just wildly inaccurate. | 08:12 |
| l7 | i wish it would just show an mAh figure | 08:13 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Which means something to exactly what percentage of tablet owners? | 08:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Feel free to code up a replacement battery applet. | 08:14 |
| l7 | i seem to recall a thread about improving it several months ago | 08:15 |
| l7 | the wildly fluctuating hours figure is way too confusing | 08:16 |
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| l7 | i think 10 hours = 100% and 5 hours = 50%, but who knows | 08:17 |
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| * RST38h wonders if it is possible to port Ubuntu battery applet to maemo =) | 08:18 | |
| GAN800 | Does it do retu? | 08:19 |
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| GAN800 | I'm not sure how abstracted the battery stuff is. | 08:19 |
| l7 | what's retu? | 08:21 |
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| XTL | l7: one of the custom chips in the NIT IIRC | 08:29 |
| XTL | "Fred" (as in Flintstone) | 08:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Related to bb5 | 08:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Power and security stuff (on cellular devices, anyway) | 08:32 |
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| camel_liu | Maemo Extras and Nokia Catalog in Apllication Catalog failed to refresh (302 Found), other two, Nokia System Software Updatres andNokia Catalog(3rd party software) are ok. Any idea? | 08:43 |
| RST38h | GAN: it probably just reads from /sys/devices or whatever passes for that in generic Linux | 08:43 |
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| RST38h | GAN: So with some tweaking it just may work on Maemo | 08:44 |
| RST38h | ok, ttg to work | 08:45 |
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| camel_liu | Can I use http proxy on application manager? | 08:47 |
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| qwerty12 | The only 3rd party battery status app I saw was KotCzarny's :/ (and one that reads it from BME directly but that is internal to Nokia) | 08:49 |
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| * Stskeeps looks around | 09:08 | |
| qwerty12 | ello Stskeeps | 09:09 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles, qwerty12: http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104 | 09:11 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | Stskeeps, TF? I see that the hacker versions are updated weekly... /sarcasm | 09:13 |
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| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N800: i'm not entirely sure what it's about but i might give some input to that stuff :P | 09:13 |
| qwerty12_N800 | hehe | 09:14 |
| Stskeeps | anyone got a jaiku invite to give, if it works like that? :P | 09:14 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Think it's open these days. | 09:15 |
| vincenzo88 | Hello all | 09:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | Slightly odd thread. | 09:15 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i think it's in terms of using a desktop UI instead of a mobile UI, as i understand it | 09:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, which hardly seems the point of Deblet to me. | 09:16 |
| Stskeeps | well, and that it might actually be an alternative to maemo.. but it's also a proof of concept of tablet possibilities, which is what i plan to write on the jaiku when i get an invite :P | 09:17 |
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| Stskeeps | i'd much rather see a change in maemo than work a mobile distribution from scratch, less work for me :P | 09:17 |
| * GeneralAntilles doesn't have one to give. | 09:17 | |
| Stskeeps | think i'm just waiting for greylisting to let it through :P | 09:17 |
| Stskeeps | this was something qgil mailed to me directly though, so i guess it's mandatory to comment ;) | 09:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 09:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm posting something. | 09:19 |
| camel_liu | Anybody knows about the '302 found' problem of Application Catalog in N800? | 09:21 |
| Stskeeps | if you had SDK download problems, they would show in same way in app catalog dl's | 09:22 |
| Stskeeps | same server | 09:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, who do I want to name-drop for Deblet | 09:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | you, johnx, qwerty12, ...? | 09:23 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Not me I'd assume :) | 09:24 |
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| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N800: well you did contribute in some ways :P | 09:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Eh, I'm making a point. | 09:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | They're sure to recognize your name, anyway. | 09:24 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: http://trac.tspre.org/projects/deblet#Creditwherecreditisdue | 09:24 |
| * GeneralAntilles just found that. | 09:24 | |
| GeneralAntilles | The font size on that site just jumped up by a ridiculous amount. | 09:25 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Ok then, I don't mind but i only made a few tiny contributions | 09:25 |
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| * qwerty12_N800 doesn't mind if you mention my name ; I just thought it would sound like me taking a lot of credit because I didn't do that much :) | 09:26 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | Well, mvo seems to think the Deblet people are leaving the tablet community. | 09:27 |
| Stskeeps | initially maybe but i'm starting to get a understanding of the good things about maemo, too | 09:27 |
| Stskeeps | a "standard debian" won't -ever- get sane power consumption | 09:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | But you can certainly have good power consumption while maintaining enough library compatibility to make porting easy, no? | 09:29 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 09:29 |
| Stskeeps | well, there's a lot of different things involved | 09:30 |
| Stskeeps | debian is still at typical sysv init runlevels and such | 09:30 |
| Stskeeps | which is good for a server, but not always for mobile devices | 09:30 |
| Stskeeps | some things you simply don't need when you're offline/system idle/etc | 09:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sure, but certainly there are a lot of broken compatibility areas that have no reason to be broken, right? | 09:30 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 09:30 |
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| GeneralAntilles | dneary's trying to peg the maemo.org logo license on me. . . . | 09:35 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: good post, ta | 09:36 |
| * GeneralAntilles wishes mvo would come back to us here. | 09:36 | |
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| Stskeeps | honestly, we needs a "Who's who in Maemo" | 09:36 |
| Stskeeps | list | 09:36 |
| * Stskeeps has very little overview who works on what | 09:37 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 09:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary worked on it for a while | 09:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | It stalled out, though. | 09:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | We kinda decided it'd be better to leave it to individuals and their maemo.org accounts. | 09:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Feel free to ask me if you need to know, though. :P | 09:38 |
| Stskeeps | alright | 09:38 |
| * GeneralAntilles hates when interesting things pop up on Jaiku | 09:39 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | I can't bring myself to check it often enough because it's usually just spam. | 09:39 |
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| GeneralAntilles | You know, 2 days and we already have a half-dozen good patches together for h-a-m | 09:43 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I wonder why that didn't happen a year ago | 09:43 |
| qwerty12 | Yerga pulled out a nice surprise :D | 09:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Mr. Patch | 09:45 |
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| * Stskeeps continues waiting for jaiku to send an invite since they claim unlimited invites atm.. | 09:55 | |
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| Stskeeps | this is why i prefer irc.. | 09:55 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 09:55 |
| qwerty12 | You're biased because you made a ircd :P | 09:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nah, Jaiku still sucks. | 09:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's like IRC, but more schizophrenic. | 09:56 |
| qwerty12 | hehe | 09:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | and tape-delayed. | 09:56 |
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| * qwerty12 has never used Jaiku so I have no idea what it is like. But I do like IRC anyway :) | 09:57 | |
| GeneralAntilles | It's an amalgamation of forums and IRC. | 09:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | But it's harder to track interesting threads than forums and no live like IRC. | 09:58 |
| macoute | ..but its more live than forums | 09:59 |
| macoute | its like sms sent to interwebs | 09:59 |
| Stskeeps | twitter for professional forum users? :P | 09:59 |
| macoute | it actually IS sms sent to interwebs, though nowadays you can use normal data connection | 09:59 |
| macoute | i think jaiku is from finland too | 09:59 |
| macoute | and i think i blogged about jaiku in its beta phase | 10:00 |
| qwerty12 | Hmm, I dunno, I still see the tabletscene forums as useless :P | 10:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 10:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | They are. | 10:02 |
| Stskeeps | oh, finally, an invite | 10:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Especially after krisse declared the tablets dead. | 10:02 |
| qwerty12 | Heh :/ | 10:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which means, what, half of the answers on tablet scene wont be coming anymore? :P | 10:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | 5 posts in the last 2 days | 10:03 |
| qwerty12 | Lol :P. I think I only posted there a few times and got reprimanded for giving answers which are too "complex". :D | 10:03 |
| * GeneralAntilles shakes his head. | 10:04 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Though you do have a way of giving a lot of dangerous info in your answers. :P | 10:04 |
| qwerty12 | But it's like brontide said, if the solution requires a xterm and there is no other way of doing it (apart from reflashing and that is pointless if it doesn't need to be done), then it's the way of the xterm :P | 10:05 |
| qwerty12 | never! :P | 10:05 |
| qwerty12 | Hehe, true, I think I get carried away sometimes... :P | 10:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | It is what it is, but it does make me chuckle. :D | 10:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | I would say "Do x". qwerty12 would say "Do x, which does y, or you could do a and b, which also does y . . . and here's this thing about Red Pill." :P | 10:06 |
| qwerty12 | Hehe, true :D | 10:06 |
| qwerty12 | But I point people to dpkg now rather than red-pill so I must get points for that :D | 10:07 |
| qwerty12 | Arg, mediawiki numbering of lists is weird >.< | 10:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | What're you doing? | 10:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | If you need to insert code in between two item, you have to use HTML. :\ | 10:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | <ol start="4"> | 10:10 |
| qwerty12 | Trying to fix the section I made on Modifying_the_root_image :/. I used ## which was wrong so I changed it to # which is now starting from one rather than 2 :/ | 10:10 |
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| GeneralAntilles | What section? | 10:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Making the actuall jffs2 image? | 10:11 |
| qwerty12 | yep | 10:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | One sec | 10:11 |
| qwerty12 | Thanks | 10:12 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Fixed. | 10:12 |
| qwerty12 | Thank you | 10:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Change the indentation on the <pre>'s if you want. | 10:13 |
| * GeneralAntilles breached 1000 edits yesterday. | 10:13 | |
| * GeneralAntilles wants his karma. | 10:13 | |
| qwerty12 | Ouch, 1000 :O? | 10:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Probably 200 of those are appending categories to the bottom of articles. :D | 10:14 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles has about the same amount of edits as the automated spambots have ;) | 10:14 |
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| qwerty12 | For me, I'd still count that as a feat because I get tired doing the same thing :P | 10:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thankfully my signal-to-noise ratio is much better. :P | 10:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, yeah? Check the recent changes page in the sidebar. ;) | 10:15 |
| qwerty12 | Hah | 10:16 |
| * qwerty12 eyes are transfixed to the page | 10:16 | |
| qwerty12 | There should be something like /me's | 10:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | I've started adding some more categories. | 10:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | I agree | 10:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, get on that? | 10:16 |
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| qwerty12 | ~lart mozilla for making me log in to install a simple extension >.< | 10:20 |
| * infobot forces mozilla to use Outlook Express for making me log in to install a simple extension >.< | 10:20 | |
| l7 | heh | 10:21 |
| qwerty12 | Though I praise the Open In Browser extension :P | 10:21 |
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| qwerty12 | Hey, GA, mind if I update the Rotation page? The osso-software-version-unlocked packages on that page are outdated if we are talking about them with regards to the latest SSU | 10:23 |
| l7 | does that extension work in osso xterm? | 10:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, do it. | 10:23 |
| qwerty12 | Cool | 10:23 |
| qwerty12 | l7: You mean to be able to select http links to open in the browser? | 10:23 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: sorry, what? | 10:24 |
| Stskeeps | boss came in | 10:24 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Make IRC do /me's. | 10:24 |
| l7 | qwerty12: yes, i notice it underlines stuff, but does not open | 10:25 |
| qwerty12 | l7: I humbly point you to : http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219462&postcount=1 :) | 10:25 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: /me's of what? | 10:25 |
| l7 | drat i'm still slow on the thumbboard | 10:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | So you can do possessive actions. | 10:26 |
| * GeneralAntilles 's cat is in insane-mode. | 10:26 | |
| qwerty12 | Heh, my cat once locked us out of the living room :P | 10:27 |
| Stskeeps | either my mind is completely blurred from my nasty cold or I don't see a problem? /me works just fine on irc | 10:27 |
| macoute | fu***ng /me. theres actually NO real reason to use it, ever. | 10:27 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:27 |
| l7 | qwerty12: ah awesome, thx | 10:27 |
| macoute | should i ignore all the /me's? :D | 10:27 |
| * qwerty12 slaps macoute with a smelly tuna fish | 10:28 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Sometimes actions speak louder than words. | 10:28 |
| RST38h | General: Must...Kill...All Humans... ? | 10:28 |
| macoute | GeneralAntilles: when? | 10:28 |
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| macoute | GeneralAntilles: you mean "10:39 * GeneralAntilles 's cat is in insane-mode. | 10:28 |
| macoute | or infobot | 10:28 |
| macoute | or 10:26 * GeneralAntilles wants his karma. | 10:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, nah, this is "sprint from one end to the apartment and back over and over". | 10:28 |
| macoute | you got the point :) | 10:29 |
| qwerty12 | macoute: infobot has it's uses as well | 10:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | You like trolling? | 10:29 |
| qwerty12 | s/it's/its/ | 10:29 |
| infobot | qwerty12 meant: macoute: infobot has its uses as well | 10:29 |
| l7 | i keep wonderinng what happened to the handy CTRL+N and CTRL+P buttons from the 2007 osso_xterm too | 10:29 |
| RST38h | General: Glass stormdoors are known to cure this behaviour | 10:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 10:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, I've done that | 10:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | but I've never seen my cat do it. | 10:29 |
| RST38h | I have once | 10:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not something one does twice. | 10:30 |
| RST38h | The cat has been kept outside for months (we were afraid she would be run over by a car) | 10:30 |
| macoute | GeneralAntilles: well no, but i really think so. if one can't speak about himself without using /me, i think the problem is more in linguistic skills than anywhere else. | 10:30 |
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| * macoute really thinks so | 10:30 | |
| RST38h | So when she saw the new stormdoor she decided not to take chances - accelerated from about 10+ meters away | 10:30 |
| macoute | but ive had this conversation here already :) | 10:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's unhealthy to get worked up over small things. | 10:32 |
| * qwerty12 cunN0t $pE@K EnGl!$|-| | 10:32 | |
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| RST38h | cuntnot, yea | 10:32 |
| qwerty12 | yeah, I was thinking of typing cunt | 10:33 |
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| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: added a comment - regarding GPL zealotry i just wanted to indicate deblet wasn't about that clearly too, you seem to have the right understanding :) | 10:36 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, it's my job to understand. :D | 10:37 |
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| * GeneralAntilles spots Stskeeps. | 10:37 | |
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| Stskeeps | oh, neat, they put up more stuff on the alignment wiki | 10:39 |
| * qwerty12 hopes I won't have to apply that diff to mvo 2.1.20 diablo h-a-m branch | 10:40 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Honestly, despite whatever RST38h says (:P), I don't think Nokia management much cares about what libraries the platform ships nor what it's based on. | 10:41 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i think they may just be directly happy to get some input on fremantle.. i'm not entirely sure they've started the OS work yet | 10:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think the bigger issue is pointing Maemo Software in the right location. | 10:41 |
| X-Fade | My feeling about this discussion is that the community should really look at real end users and not only hardcore hackers. | 10:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | From the standpoint of? | 10:42 |
| X-Fade | The only thing that will get us anywhere is big number sales. | 10:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, a platform discussion is a platform discussion | 10:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | It doesn't really involve end users | 10:43 |
| X-Fade | We don't want te forget that ;) | 10:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | beyond, perhaps, opening them up to more software | 10:43 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: we shouldn't underestimate passionate users either as ways to attract people to buy a tablet | 10:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | either through better compatibility or easier porting. | 10:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | There is something to be said for winning over the local geek. | 10:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | The "go to geek" | 10:43 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: If Nokia is going to aim to the milions of users. How many hardcore hackers do you think there will be. | 10:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | The UI and end-user discussion is really a separate one. | 10:44 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: well, considering the netbook market exploding a little bit these days.. netbook in your pocket for instance | 10:45 |
| X-Fade | Users don't care about debian, opensource, whatever. They just want a cool device, with a cool interface and easy access to cool software. | 10:45 |
| X-Fade | What we want is something different ;) | 10:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, which is fine, but unrelated to this discussion. | 10:45 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: maybe the thing about debian, open source, yadda yadda is incentive for the people who'd develop the platform and apps | 10:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Roope can worry about slick UIs to entice users. | 10:46 |
| Stskeeps | i mean | 10:46 |
| Stskeeps | less screaming at scratchbox when you want to port some cairo support library | 10:46 |
| Stskeeps | that's good, i guess | 10:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | There's a lot to be said for happy developers. | 10:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Without developers, you have no users. | 10:46 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: Sure, easier development methods need to happen. | 10:47 |
| Stskeeps | and the reason i'm even pushing ahead with this is because i know it will help me in my workplace and in my own tablet use | 10:47 |
| Stskeeps | for development purposes | 10:48 |
| X-Fade | And every unneeded hurdle needs to be removed. | 10:48 |
| Stskeeps | i mean, i got upset at that i couldn't set up a simple rsync every night of my xournal notes easily | 10:48 |
| Stskeeps | since i'm from a unix upbringing from when i was 8 :P | 10:49 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: Well, I guess running cron + rsync is an option ;) | 10:49 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: you'd think so | 10:49 |
| Stskeeps | but when the tablet goes into deep sleep it misses the time and fails to do it | 10:50 |
| Stskeeps | and had problems with the retu enabled once too | 10:50 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: Yeah, I think you need to use alarmd for that. | 10:50 |
| Stskeeps | (which used alarmd) | 10:50 |
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| X-Fade | As that one sets hardware wakeups. | 10:50 |
| * GeneralAntilles can't imagine what's going on with the alarmd sources. | 10:51 | |
| GeneralAntilles | David fails at releasing sources. | 10:51 |
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| qwerty12 | mvo really should push 2.1.20 to ssu soon when it's finished. I just tried it on my tablet and the speed boost is brilliant even in red pill mode is brilliant. | 10:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Speed boost? | 10:52 |
| qwerty12 | -is brilliant | 10:52 |
| qwerty12 | Yeah, I'm seeing packages *much* faster | 10:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Huh, what was changed? | 10:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | and have you compiled it for release yet? :P | 10:52 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: There is some source available here: https://garage.maemo.org/scm/?group_id=127 | 10:52 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Although that seems to be a one-time drop. | 10:53 |
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| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles: https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/branches/2.1.x/ChangeLog?revision=1434&root=hildon-app-mgr&view=markup | 10:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3635 | 10:53 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles: It's usuable straight from checking out but I guess I can do a unofficial release with some mods :) | 10:53 |
| qwerty12 | Though I don't know why mvo has disabled the update repository button at the main screen now in red pill mode >.< | 10:54 |
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| qwerty12 | Mvo's red pill changes are in this release by default | 10:54 |
| * GeneralAntilles still doesn't get allnameswereout. | 10:55 | |
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| hellwolf-n810 | why my n810 cannot remember my background image setting | 10:57 |
| hellwolf-n810 | I changed a picture, but after I reboot,it reset to default one | 10:58 |
| * Stskeeps curses power cuts | 10:58 | |
| * GeneralAntilles gives Stskeeps a big UPS. | 10:58 | |
| Stskeeps | ruined my perfectly healthy 90 day xp uptime | 10:58 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:58 |
| qwerty12 | XP? Uptime? 90 days? Aiiii | 10:59 |
| Mikho | impressive | 10:59 |
| [zeus] | it's a magic! | 10:59 |
| Stskeeps | and if thunderbird is going to die like last time now, i'm going to go on a rampage | 10:59 |
| RST38h | Not touched and disconnected from the network? | 11:00 |
| Stskeeps | sane setup | 11:00 |
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| t_s_o | as in, 99% turned off ;) | 11:08 |
| * Stskeeps ponders idly how fast his 69m ubuntu image boots. | 11:13 | |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: regarding people, mvo - i've seen him with h-a-f, but does he do other stuff? | 11:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | He's basically the h-a-m programmer. | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | alright | 11:16 |
| qwerty12 | Grr | 11:16 |
| qwerty12 | " /* XXX - the code allows the retry of failed downloads, but I (mvo) | 11:16 |
| qwerty12 | forgot to get the needed localized UI strings, so we have | 11:16 |
| qwerty12 | to disable that functionality for now. | 11:16 |
| qwerty12 | */" | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | .. | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | i understand, qwerty12 | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | lol | 11:17 |
| qwerty12 | Lol, basically, when something fails, we have to close the error message and wait for the list to refresh. mvo has code that lets you retry it but he forgot to localise the strings | 11:17 |
| qwerty12 | lol :P | 11:17 |
| Stskeeps | we need a Maemo WTFs thread on iTT | 11:17 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:17 |
| Stskeeps | like thedailywtf.com | 11:17 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles: You'll be glad to know that in the official h-a-m, the user won't be able to even set red pill as a permanent mode :P. But as this is a mod version and I am a self-confessed user of red pill mode, I need to have the option to set it in any patched versions :P | 11:18 |
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| Robot101 | I can't blame him, its very hard to get ui specs changed | 11:20 |
| * GeneralAntilles really doesn't get allnameswereout | 11:20 | |
| GeneralAntilles | He seems to be against multitasking | 11:20 |
| qwerty12 | Yeah, It is unfair for me to criticise seeing as I can't even do much with code anyway | 11:20 |
| Jaffa | qwerty12: It's a red pill setting as to whether red pill is permanent | 11:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Robot101, which is unfortunate. | 11:21 |
| Robot101 | I tried filing enhancement requests in bugzilla and got no end of pain. They were invalidated and I was referred to a tool I can't access. | 11:21 |
| Jaffa | qwerty12: I really wouldn't be happy if you released an interim version where red-pill was still permanent by default ;-) | 11:21 |
| Jaffa | (and what are you using red pill *for*?!) | 11:21 |
| qwerty12 | Jaffa: I know, I never set it as default but I give the people the option to set it as permanent with the DANGER/ACHTUNG string I added on. | 11:22 |
| qwerty12 | Jaffa: I like it, plus, I know what I'm doing with red pill :) | 11:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hide it in gconf or something? | 11:22 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles: Actually I guess that is mvo's plan, you can always set the option manually by editing .osso/hildon-application-manager | 11:23 |
| qwerty12 | Fucking hell, I swear when I reinstall Ubuntu, I'm switching to Kubuntu. Nautillus has to be the biggest POS ever. | 11:26 |
| RST38h | why? | 11:26 |
| t_s_o | GeneralAntilles: cant help in the understanding department, i find most usability talk way over the deep end... | 11:27 |
| qwerty12 | RST38h: I kill it at least 10 times a day because it fails to show me what's new in the folder even by refreshing it manually. | 11:27 |
| * GeneralAntilles can't imagine a bigger PoS than Finder. | 11:27 | |
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| qwerty12 | Even explorer.exe does a better job >.< | 11:27 |
| t_s_o | but then i think the same about most things learned from studying fellow humans, randomness in action imo... | 11:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 11:28 |
| * t_s_o is addicted to konqueror | 11:28 | |
| macoute | qwerty12: you should file a bug | 11:28 |
| macoute | it shouldnt do that | 11:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | Problem is, it seems to be mostly mouth diarrhea | 11:28 |
| qwerty12 | macoute: hmm, I guess, this is my 3rd install with that bug... | 11:28 |
| qwerty12 | t_s_o: I will be soon :P | 11:28 |
| macoute | qwerty12: and you do know that you can install konqueror or some other file manager to Gnome as well. :D | 11:29 |
| macoute | no need to reinstall the whole os :D | 11:29 |
| t_s_o | im a bit sad that kde4 follows gnome in the quest for usability and introduced dolphin. nice file manager, but imo a bleak relative of konqueror ;) | 11:29 |
| Stskeeps | hm, gst-plugins-dsp0.10, didn't notice that was OSS | 11:29 |
| qwerty12 | macoute: Yeah, I've done it before I'm running out of space now which is one of the reasons I want to reinstall :) | 11:29 |
| qwerty12 | ^but | 11:30 |
| qwerty12 | ~lart myself for giving more space to windows. | 11:31 |
| * infobot squeezes myself till myself turns blue like papa smurf for giving more space to windows. | 11:31 | |
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| macoute | qwerty12: you do use LVM? ;) | 11:33 |
| t_s_o | on note of dolphin tho, i strikes me that the system of a main file window with a sidebar of "bookmarks" could be more effective then the current tree used in maemo, at least for when one is picking a file to open in some app... | 11:34 |
| qwerty12 | macoute: Just a plain ext3 partition. I'm no advanced linux user and stick with basics *grin* | 11:34 |
| t_s_o | heh, seems like that "future" thread is heading for name calling hell quickly... | 11:35 |
| qwerty12 | If anyone wants to try h-a-m 2.1.20, I've patched it with Yerga's repository display patch, Jaffa's toggable legal warning patch, show dependencies tab in blue pill, enable updating repo's button at main screen & Settings replaced with Settings... : http://qwerty12.maemobox.org/appman/testing/ | 11:37 |
| qwerty12 | It's an unreleased version so as usual, try at your own risk... | 11:38 |
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| Stskeeps | johnx: http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104 | 11:45 |
| johnx | very interesting | 11:45 |
| * johnx reads, makes curry | 11:46 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Thanks, qwerty12. | 11:47 |
| qwerty12 | No problems :) | 11:47 |
| qwerty12 | -s | 11:47 |
| X-Fade | I'm wondering if things like that should go in extras-devel ;) | 11:47 |
| X-Fade | With a -community tagged to it orso ;) | 11:48 |
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| aquatix | qwerty12: i can also recommend xubuntu | 11:48 |
| aquatix | or just use Thunar on ubuntu/gnome | 11:48 |
| qwerty12 | X-Fade: It's an unreleased version though :/. It's why I've only posted the link here. | 11:48 |
| X-Fade | qwerty12: -community-preview then ;) | 11:49 |
| qwerty12 | aquatix: Yeah, XFCE is nice but I do prefer GNOME to it for some reason :/. But Thunar is good, I forgot about that, thanks | 11:49 |
| qwerty12 | X-Fade: Would you remove it when it's officially pushed via SSU? | 11:49 |
| qwerty12 | s/when/if I guess | 11:50 |
| aquatix | qwerty12: yw :) | 11:50 |
| * aquatix likes xfce4 because of the keyboard friendlyness | 11:51 | |
| t_s_o | hmm, now i find myself pondering that deblet may well keep my tablet alive long after nokia have given up any pretense of continued support | 11:51 |
| Stskeeps | t_s_o: i'm trying a bit to make nokia settle on a base that they build their tablet supports on, that's not as static-per-tablet-version | 11:52 |
| * aquatix pictures an ancient t_s_o playing around with his tablet around the end of the century | 11:52 | |
| Stskeeps | so continued tablet life would be possible | 11:52 |
| * GeneralAntilles still wants osv-c. | 11:52 | |
| t_s_o | aquatix: i still have a nes here somewhere so... | 11:52 |
| * GeneralAntilles wonders if he could convince Stskeeps to work on it if it would help push Nokia in the right direction. :P | 11:52 | |
| johnx | post-Nokia support has always been a part of the debian-on-tablet projects :) | 11:53 |
| aquatix | t_s_o: :) | 11:53 |
| aquatix | t_s_o: our snes is dieing :( | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i'm not that interested in osv-c.. underlying stuff though | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | i'd gladly hack on maemo if it was -actually- sane | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 11:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, start filing bugs. | 11:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | and/or point me at issues and I'll file bugs. | 11:54 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i will, eventually, just need to get past these weeks at work and me being sick :P after these weeks i'm joining a project where we'll use tablets extensively | 11:54 |
| Stskeeps | and mobile environments | 11:54 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, GeneralAntilles, before filing random bugs, maybe we should at least start a little informal wiki page of things that get in our ways | 11:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, qgil started one. | 11:54 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: nokia's pushing http://wiki.maemo.org/Mainstream_Linux_Alignment a bit | 11:55 |
| johnx | ah, awesome, I'll add some things to it *evil laugh* | 11:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Point me in the right direction and I'll do the grunt work. | 11:55 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: http://bsd.tspre.org/~stskeeps/ubuntumin.txt <- in 69m | 11:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't really have the experience to pick everything out on my own. | 11:56 |
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| johnx | Stskeeps, hot sauce. :D looks good. even has coreutils. :D | 11:56 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: my next attempt is throwing a hildon desktop on it | 11:56 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, I think neither Stskeeps nor I had the knowledge until we actually went and bashed through getting Debian sorted out | 11:56 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, I might do a couple tests with copied libs and LD_LIBRARY_PATH tonight | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: if i can make a 100mb or less hildon image.. there might be some interesting things | 11:57 |
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| GeneralAntilles | johnx, fair enough, but now you do. :P | 11:58 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, just have to rewind my brain back to the moments when I encountered randomness | 11:58 |
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| Stskeeps | right, small meeting | 11:58 |
| Stskeeps | brb | 11:58 |
| johnx | unfortunately, the maemo-ized gtk is probably the biggest stumbling block and it's not going to go away easily... | 11:59 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: they've noticed our notice in one of the bugs, atleast | 11:59 |
| Stskeeps | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3827#c2 | 11:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, finds like a good bug to start with. :P | 11:59 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, that's completely beyond me at this point. Also it's a question of where the core maemo-architecture is going. I don't get to make those decisions... | 12:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/finds/sounds/ | 12:01 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles meant: johnx, sounds like a good bug to start with. :P | 12:01 |
| johnx | guess I should get on jaiku... | 12:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, so not worth it. | 12:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | This is, like, the only useful thread in months. | 12:03 |
| t_s_o | hmm? | 12:04 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, I'd like to talk to mvo, though. He had exactly the same response as me to the idea of breaking from maemo... | 12:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | t_s_o, http://qgil.jaiku.com/presence/47635104#c-1729776 | 12:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, -developers | 12:04 |
| johnx | so many things to follow :/ | 12:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Don't gotta tell me. | 12:06 |
| * GeneralAntilles will aggregate more duplicate threads into his blog posts. | 12:07 | |
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| X-Fade | About sections/categories again.. Are we able to get a list asap, so we can do something for the short-term? | 12:08 |
| RST38h | Oh, yesss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdUjGx-PVJY&feature=related | 12:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, only thing I'm worried about is rushing it too quickly and ending up with something we want to modify. | 12:09 |
| * RST38h is mildly satisfied that there are ate least *some* honest people left | 12:09 | |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Well, short-term means fix it a bit now. So we have something for diablo. | 12:09 |
| X-Fade | And after that look at fremantle, which is longer term to me. | 12:10 |
| RST38h | Wait, I stand corrected: he is Irish. | 12:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Alright, what does the room think? http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories | 12:12 |
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| RST38h | accessories means nothing | 12:13 |
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| RST38h | replace with utilities | 12:13 |
| RST38h | multimedia is outdated as a term - just usemedia | 12:14 |
| RST38h | settings is meaningless, merge them all into system | 12:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html | 12:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Part of the idea is to sort of stick with upstream. | 12:15 |
| RST38h | the rest is good, as far as this motley fool is concerned | 12:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | But, yes, s/accessories/utilities/ | 12:15 |
| RST38h | Well their categories are different anyway | 12:15 |
| RST38h | Settings is really a useless category for the tablets, they are System by nature | 12:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | They're approaching it from a Start menu viewpoint and we're going from a package categories viewpoint | 12:16 |
| RST38h | And with Media, FreeDesktop seems to be confused - they have got three awkwardly named categories | 12:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | So merging settings and system makes sense to me. | 12:16 |
| RST38h | Just have one (Media) | 12:16 |
| RST38h | Alternative: Have Media with two subcategories (is possible technically): Video and Audio | 12:17 |
| RST38h | s/is/if/ | 12:17 |
| infobot | RST38h meant: Alternative: Have Media with two subcategories (if possible technically): Video and Audio | 12:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, media is less awkward | 12:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | There was an issue with people thinking PIM stuff didn't belong under office. | 12:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Any thoughts? | 12:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | I suggested maybe "Productivity", but that really doesn't cover everything under Office. | 12:18 |
| RST38h | Make a subcategory under Office | 12:18 |
| RST38h | Same for Mail, Web, and Chat (under Network) | 12:19 |
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| XTL | Taxonomies rarely work | 12:19 |
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| RST38h | True, but we are not hellbent on creating the complete taxonomy | 12:20 |
| XTL | Just a little handy order, yes. | 12:20 |
| RST38h | The criterium for creating a subcategory is "if it covers >10% of category packages" | 12:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | I feel a bit like communication should be separated from network. | 12:20 |
| aquatix | RST38h: maybe look at how debian's categories are set up? | 12:20 |
| RST38h | And you can raise those 10% if you wish, to stay safe | 12:20 |
| RST38h | General: yes, but people will complain :) | 12:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | aquatix: admin, comm, devel, doc, editors, electronics, embedded, games, gnome, graphics, hamradio, interpreters, kde, libs, libdevel, mail, math, misc, net, news, oldlibs, otherosfs, perl, python, science, shells, sound, tex, text, utils, web, x11 | 12:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | You tell me. :P | 12:21 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: errrr :) | 12:21 |
| RST38h | General: So I would rather hadthose subcategories under Network | 12:21 |
| qwerty12 | I want a user/kde category! | 12:21 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: i meant the menu stuff btw ;) | 12:21 |
| aquatix | or hm | 12:21 |
| aquatix | nm | 12:21 |
| RST38h | user/hugecrap | 12:21 |
| qwerty12 | yum | 12:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html | 12:22 |
| aquatix | no wait, GeneralAntilles: the debian menu stuff is actually quite ok | 12:22 |
| RST38h | General: Also, an option "View/Ignore Subcategories" may be helpful in the app manager | 12:22 |
| aquatix | categories and such | 12:22 |
| * GeneralAntilles feels like users might not get "Networking". | 12:22 | |
| lardman | morning | 12:22 |
| qwerty12 | hullo lardman | 12:23 |
| aquatix | Network > Communication | 12:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://newbiedoc.berlios.de/images/9/93/Debian-menu-xman.png | 12:23 |
| aquatix | (submenu) | 12:23 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: it's quite nested though | 12:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Alright | 12:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | This is my list: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories#Defined_top-level_categories_.26_application-specific_subcategories | 12:24 |
| Jaffa | 1) I don't think we should use sub-categories for anything other than application multi-packages until we have far too many packages to worry about it | 12:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, I'm with Jaffa. | 12:25 |
| Jaffa | b) the i18n for "Networking" could be "Internet & Networkigng" - but can't just be "Internet" as that doesn't cover Samba clients, for example. | 12:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | There's an argument to be made for not dropping categories from the existing list. | 12:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | What about Tools? | 12:26 |
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| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: hm, that table looks sane to me | 12:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Where does nano go? | 12:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Utilities? | 12:27 |
| johnx | yes, I suppose | 12:28 |
| Jaffa | Utilities/Accessories | 12:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK, fair enough. | 12:28 |
| johnx | the only problem with those categories is if we'll use them for the menu too, they'll be kind of lopsided | 12:28 |
| aquatix | yeah, Utilities/Accessories sounds logical | 12:28 |
| johnx | sorry, fell off the inet earlier...computer crapped out | 12:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, I'm sure Nokia has some plans for the application menu. | 12:29 |
| Jaffa | Any time a problematic package comes up, I want it recorded in that page the consensus of where best it could go. Then, if it doesn't go anywhere, the categorisation needs improvement | 12:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Aaah, Jaffa, that sounds like a good plan. | 12:30 |
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| GeneralAntilles | So, can we push this list to -developers as a proposed final list for Diablo? | 12:31 |
| * Jaffa adds text editors under 'Utilities' and puts some different English i18n suggestions there | 12:32 | |
| melmoth | any idea where to find liblocation-dev ? (i have been asked , and i have no access to scratchibox right now) | 12:33 |
| melmoth | is it one of the package that comes with the sdk, or is it in a repo (if yes, wich one ? ) | 12:34 |
| lardman | wasn't someone saying yesterday that it's in the Nokia binaries install pack? | 12:35 |
| lardman | in the SDK | 12:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://www.google.com/search?ie=utf8&oe=utf8&q=site:repository.maemo.org+liblocation-dev | 12:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's not in the repo, anyway. | 12:35 |
| qwerty12 | Yeah, lardman's right | 12:35 |
| lardman | of course ;) | 12:35 |
| lardman | hmm | 12:35 |
| qwerty12 | ls /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation* | 12:35 |
| qwerty12 | /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation-dev_0.30-1_armel.deb | 12:35 |
| qwerty12 | /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation-dev_0.30-1_i386.deb | 12:35 |
| qwerty12 | /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation0_0.30-1_armel.deb | 12:35 |
| qwerty12 | /home/faheem/maemo-sdk-nokia-binaries_4.1/pool/liblocation0_0.30-1_i386.deb | 12:35 |
| melmoth | thanks ! | 12:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | Anybody? Shall we push to -developers? | 12:41 |
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| X-Fade | We also need to decide what we want to do with these top-level categories. Push it to the packaging policy? | 12:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Who is handling the policy? | 12:42 |
| X-Fade | Or have our own policy for the extras repositories. | 12:42 |
| X-Fade | I guess Eero's team. | 12:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | It should go to the policy. | 12:43 |
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| Jaffa | X-Fade/GeneralAntilles: did you see mvo's suggestion of not altering the deb if you want to change a package's section; but doing it in the repo's Packages index? | 12:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, that sounds workable to me. | 12:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Though that doesn't stop Nokia from being evil. | 12:46 |
| Jaffa | An interesting idea (forcing it in the app mgr prevents in-house, proprietary, turnkey, bespoke systems internally) | 12:46 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: There is something like the 'overrides' file in the repo. | 12:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nor random 3rd-party repos. | 12:46 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: I have to investigate if our tools use it. | 12:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Doing it in the Application Manager also means less work for X-Fade. ;) | 12:46 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: But then the packages themselves stay crappy. | 12:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | True enough | 12:47 |
| X-Fade | Although we will give the developers warnings when they upload. | 12:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | How does Debian enforce? | 12:47 |
| X-Fade | So I guess most will change. | 12:47 |
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| X-Fade | reject. | 12:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah | 12:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Bad for us | 12:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | For the time being, anyway. | 12:48 |
| Jaffa | Indeed. | 12:48 |
| X-Fade | Yes, that is no option. | 12:48 |
| X-Fade | So warnings is the best we can do. | 12:48 |
| Jaffa | Although, I don't imagine it being too far off, given how nice everyone's been about putting stuff in extras. | 12:48 |
| X-Fade | And some positive encouragement. | 12:48 |
| Jaffa | Warnings are only for the auto-builder, aren't they? There's the non-free stuff in Extras to worry about too | 12:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | cronjob? | 12:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | email the uploader? | 12:49 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Yes, but we can mail the uploader there too. It is a bit more work, but doable. | 12:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | Unrelated, do you know who uploaded the ntp packages, X-Fade? | 12:49 |
| X-Fade | We have the email for each uploader. | 12:49 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Which repo? | 12:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | Extras somewhere | 12:49 |
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| GeneralAntilles | The maintainer line points to an Ubuntu mailing list. | 12:50 |
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| X-Fade | openntpd_3.9p1-4-maemo3 ? | 12:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | 4.2.4p0+dfsg-4 | 12:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | ntp, ntpdate, and ntp-doc | 12:51 |
| qwerty12 | https://garage.maemo.org/builder/diablo/Aug.2008/ntp_4.2.4p0+dfsg-4/summary.log | 12:51 |
| X-Fade | So marcell ;) | 12:52 |
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| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, the repository line patch isn't perfect | 12:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | A package in Extras shows up as "Repository: repository.maeom.org diablo free" | 12:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/maeom/maemo/ | 12:53 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles meant: A package in Extras shows up as "Repository: repository.maemo.org diablo free" | 12:53 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles: It's not my patch :P | 12:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, yerga's. | 12:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh, yerga's back. | 12:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | yerga! | 12:54 |
| qwerty12 | I'm getting maemo.org here. | 12:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Fixit!Fixit!Fixit! | 12:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | It doesn't say repository.maemo.org/extras | 12:54 |
| yerga | GeneralAntilles, yeah | 12:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just repository.maemo.org screams "SDK repo!" to me. | 12:54 |
| yerga | jus looking it at the moment | 12:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, qwerty12, package list updating feels way faster. | 12:55 |
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| qwerty12 | Cool. I've updated the build I put up by testing how well it works by using floating point & O3. I've also made it remove the ignore packages from wrong domains messages it spits in the log in the hope of making it faster | 12:56 |
| qwerty12 | From what I can see, it's a bit more faster but nothing to write home about | 12:57 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Alright, I'm sending off an email to -developers. | 13:02 |
| RST38h | General: The Chinese guy came here again this morning - looks like whatever extras server services China has got a problem | 13:02 |
| RST38h | General: It reports 302 (content moved?) and the app manager absolutely hates that | 13:03 |
| qwerty12 | The Chinese government do dodgy stuff with their internet anyway :/ | 13:03 |
| RST38h | I do not think their government is to blame this time | 13:03 |
| johnx | RST38h, there's a bug open, but it's gonna be hard to track down. definitely on akamai's side | 13:03 |
| RST38h | yep | 13:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3823 | 13:03 |
| X-Fade | My guess that is just export control. | 13:04 |
| johnx | X-Fade, you can download via wget, but apt-get doesn't cope with 302 found redirects... | 13:04 |
| X-Fade | Ah, so it is not because china is 'the enemy' :) | 13:05 |
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| t_s_o | hmm, attempting to pair bluemaemo with my desktop using kde seesm to bump into some issue. hcid claims "invalid pnp service record length"... | 13:12 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Just edited the page: "Media" is rubbish as a title for "user/multimedia" (or, the even worse, "user/media". Floppy disks, CD ROMs, PNGs, Word documents etc. all get called "media" at some point. | 13:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't like multimedia at all. | 13:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Music certainly doesn't go in there. | 13:13 |
| t_s_o | entertainment? | 13:13 |
| Jaffa | "user/multimedia" is a sensible section name, IMNSHO. "Multimedia" or "Sound & Video" are also good for labels. | 13:13 |
| Jaffa | t_s_o: "Games" are entertainment | 13:14 |
| lardman | people know what multimedia is | 13:14 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Then the i18n key should be "Sound & Video" | 13:14 |
| Jaffa | lardman: indeed - devices are advertised as "multimedia blah blah blah" | 13:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I guess we've already got multimedia | 13:14 |
| X-Fade | Another thing to consider is the length of these labels.. | 13:14 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: I vote for Media | 13:15 |
| Jaffa | The longest now are "Sound & Video", "Location & Navigation" and "Internet & Networking" | 13:15 |
| X-Fade | They should be relatively short. | 13:15 |
| RST38h | "Multimedia" is 1) long and 2) sounds so 90s... | 13:15 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: It's not a vote. It's a debate. | 13:15 |
| X-Fade | 'communication' is the longest one we have currently. | 13:15 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Why do they need to be short, if the presentation of the category list is better? | 13:15 |
| RST38h | Well, I do not much hope for a debate :) | 13:15 |
| lardman | RST38h: but is understandable, unlike media, which sounds like newspapers and tv reporting to me | 13:15 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Check you main menu ;) | 13:15 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: "Network" or "Net" is shorter | 13:15 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: ah, good point | 13:16 |
| johnx | RST38h, this is not a democracy :) | 13:16 |
| RST38h | johnx: yea, that is what I meant :) | 13:16 |
| lardman | true, and his highness disagrees with us | 13:16 |
| lardman | ;) | 13:16 |
| Jaffa | lardman: he's chair - not emperor ;-) | 13:16 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: I have no idea what the plans are for the menu, but it is something we need to consider at least. | 13:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, that's another blog from you. | 13:16 |
| * Jaffa very strongly believes that "Media" is as generic as "Entertainment" or "Applications". And therefore useless in any form of taxonomy | 13:17 | |
| GeneralAntilles | I did say earlier that we shouldn't change existing categories without good reason | 13:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | multimedia already exists | 13:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | soooo | 13:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, how about twomedia. :P | 13:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Anyway, not argument from me. | 13:17 |
| X-Fade | The only person who sees that name is the packager, the rest sees the i18n variant. | 13:17 |
| X-Fade | Which can be completely different. | 13:18 |
| X-Fade | Let's not get hung up on that. | 13:18 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Nokia'll go and put a smell-o-matic in the N900 just to prove you wrong. | 13:18 |
| lardman | who wants multimedia anyway, we only need two categories: dsp programming, other programming | 13:18 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Exactly. | 13:18 |
| qwerty12 | boo | 13:18 |
| Jaffa | lardman: :) | 13:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then we can have threedia | 13:18 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Is that Dia, Sodipodi & Inkscape? | 13:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Alright, multimedia it is. | 13:19 |
| johnx | lardman, dsp programming and boring things that no one cares about? more descriptive I think | 13:19 |
| X-Fade | 3D screen? 3D haptic feedback? So you feel bumps on the screen? :) | 13:19 |
| lardman | johnx: yes, sounds good ;) | 13:19 |
| Jaffa | Do we have a conclusion on whether App Manager or the repo should force the section things appear in? | 13:21 |
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| glass | X-Fade: nokia has some patents and r&d to that | 13:21 |
| X-Fade | glass: Yes, I read that on engadget I think ;) | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | hm, did jaiku just die a horrible horrible death? | 13:21 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, I still like Application Manager | 13:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | But pull the list of acceptable packages from maemo.org | 13:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, bad gateway? | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 13:23 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Want to suggest that in the thread I restarted which mvo was participating in? | 13:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Beginning of the end of the world? | 13:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, will do. | 13:23 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i wouldn't really be surprised these days. | 13:23 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Cool, ta. | 13:24 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: I guess the real question is: Do we want to add sections later or is this the permanent solution. | 13:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think we'll notice the bombs going off when big datacenters start going down. | 13:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, i.e., might we want to change the list later? | 13:24 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Yes, because if it is in AM, that means releasing a new version. | 13:25 |
| Jaffa | And, *can* we easily change the list; without the resources to handle all the i18n? | 13:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, like I said, it should fetch the authoritative list during a repository update. | 13:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hrm | 13:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | i18n will be a sticking point for Nokia. | 13:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | We can probably hit a dozen languages from the community. . . . | 13:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm sure we can organize translation if we need to add a section. | 13:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | email fired off to -developers | 13:27 |
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| RST38h | For missing i18n translation, default to Kli^H^H^HEnglish | 13:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pig Latin? | 13:30 |
| RST38h | May not be very elegant, but most people will understand it | 13:30 |
| RST38h | Is there a word for multimedia in Latin? | 13:31 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: i kinda wonder what mvo meant by "please wake up", heh | 13:31 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, think qgil's asleep and we're all figments of his imagination? :D | 13:33 |
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| johnx | Stskeeps, I think to say that deblet and (especially) the previous debian on tablet haven't ended up in many patches to maemo | 13:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | ^ | 13:34 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: ah, to the "please wake up" thing or? | 13:34 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Yes | 13:35 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 13:35 |
| Stskeeps | well my perspective was that nokia wasn't interested | 13:35 |
| Stskeeps | which they kinda seem like now though | 13:35 |
| johnx | I think they worry a lot about fracturing internally | 13:36 |
| johnx | it's been a big problem on almost every other linux-based device ever sold | 13:36 |
| johnx | except tivo :P | 13:37 |
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| Stskeeps | fracturing internally.. as in internal developer support or? | 13:40 |
| johnx | exactly | 13:40 |
| Stskeeps | like, "why bother working on maemo when there's deblet" or something? | 13:40 |
| johnx | exactly | 13:40 |
| Stskeeps | (extreme example) | 13:40 |
| johnx | not so extreme if you look at the zaurus community as I'm sure Nokia does | 13:41 |
| johnx | There were several incompatible distros at the height of zaurus popularity | 13:42 |
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| Stskeeps | the whole OABI/EABI stuff or? | 13:45 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: whilst replying to your email, I thought of another solution: an extra package which contains all the metadata which can be released independently of h-a-m. | 13:46 |
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| GeneralAntilles | So users will have to install a "categories update" package? | 13:46 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, Sharp's distro ("ROM" in zaurus-speak) had an old version of qtopia on framebuffer, then openzaurus forked qtopia because of license issues, but continued running on the framebuffer. Then there was pdaxrom which had x and gtk/qt but it was incompatible with a newer version of openzaurus that had switched to x and gtk, which was maintained in parallel with the qt/framebuffer version of openzaurus | 13:49 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 13:49 |
| Stskeeps | atleast it's a little more settled on maemo though | 13:49 |
| Stskeeps | the outlines are the same in dist stuff | 13:49 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, now multiply by each distro having better or worse support for different machines with different orientations and resolutions | 13:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | Fun stuff | 13:50 |
| johnx | I'm just saying I think this is what Nokia worries about, but doesn't want to talk about | 13:50 |
| * GeneralAntilles is kinda glad he never pulled the trigger on that SL-6000 | 13:50 | |
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| johnx | GeneralAntilles, it's settled down to angstrom (ex-openzaurus) being pretty much the only maintained distro | 13:52 |
| johnx | things are getting better now, but it's too little too late as zaurus users/devs have moved on to other platforms for the most part | 13:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | I had that thing sitting in my cart on Amazon for month.s | 13:52 |
| johnx | it's really nice hardware I hear | 13:52 |
| * w00t eyes Stskeeps | 13:53 | |
| johnx | but hardware does not provide a good user experience by itself | 13:53 |
| johnx | and 64MB of RAM is not quite enough to comfortably surf the web | 13:53 |
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| lardman | johnx: it's always that way - took a long while for support for all the hardware due to Sharp's closed nature | 13:59 |
| lardman | johnx: From Nokia's point of view it's not so bad though, there are lots of apps, they are reasonably easy to port and the system software is kept uptodate; that removed lots of the causes of the competition on the Zaurus | 14:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, there is the point that section list updates wont occur all that frequently. | 14:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Especially after we get a finalized list for Fremantle. | 14:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Maybe another pro for the list-on-server approach is that it means anybody can get the list for any purpose? | 14:02 |
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| johnx | lardman, exactly, they're doing a lot better than Sharp, but lack of updates for "end-of-lifed" machines is going to be a stumbling block, and API changes definitely won't win them new friends among the devs | 14:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | If somebody codes up another package manager or some sort of package-browsing web application. | 14:02 |
| johnx | back in an hour... | 14:03 |
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| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: both good points. I was imagining "Categories Update" being a hidden dependency of h-a-m | 14:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | So then you're still stuck waiting for an SSU push for a new list? | 14:04 |
| lardman | Why does the lsit need to be a dep, the AM should be able to run with whatever list it currently has cached | 14:04 |
| lardman | and it should just look to update it when ever it's online | 14:05 |
| lardman | or do we want to remove that overhead? | 14:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just update whenever the repositories list is refreshed. | 14:05 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: No, just some normal upgrade | 14:05 |
| Jaffa | TBH, I think this is overengineering. | 14:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Likely | 14:06 |
| Jaffa | Stick it all in with the h-a-m and upgrade it if necessary | 14:06 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: I agree with you, update the list automatically whenever the user clicks update (for the package lists) | 14:06 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Imaging the breakage if someone removes the extras repository from their list ;) | 14:06 |
| Jaffa | Is it ever likely that we want to change the category list *so urgently* that it can't wait for a re-release? | 14:06 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: :) | 14:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Unlikely | 14:07 |
| lardman | Jaffa: can the AM be upgraded? | 14:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, well I figure it would be pulled in regardless of what's the catalog. | 14:07 |
| RST38h | Wait, wait, why are you talking about updating category list at all? | 14:07 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: exactly, it has its own update path which is hidden from the users | 14:07 |
| RST38h | Isn't it going to be generated dynamically based on whatever categories occur in the package lists? | 14:07 |
| lardman | no | 14:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Because then we're right back where we are now. | 14:08 |
| lardman | otherwise it could just be done automatically on the device | 14:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | With Boingo as a category | 14:08 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, so just embed the list in h-a-m? | 14:10 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Or however it currently gets its i18n labels: extend it to include icons & descriptions, and then anything which doesn't match it gets put into "user/other" | 14:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Right, specifics are up to mvo. ;) | 14:13 |
| RST38h | General: You can weed out "wrong" categories on repository submission | 14:14 |
| RST38h | Absolutely no need to do it in the client | 14:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | No you can't. | 14:14 |
| RST38h | why? | 14:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | What about Nokia repositories? | 14:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or 3rd party? | 14:14 |
| Jaffa | Or J. Random 3rd Party | 14:14 |
| RST38h | What about them? | 14:14 |
| RST38h | Well, random 3rd party you can't do much about, just show whatever categories are there | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | They shouldn't fuck up the user's experience of the Application Manager | 14:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | They can corrupt the category view. | 14:15 |
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| RST38h | general: they will not, why? | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Except we *can* do lots about it. | 14:15 |
| RST38h | They will just show up as extra "Others" icons at the end | 14:15 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Just because you can do lots about something, does not mean you should | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | Without any i18n | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Of course. At the moment, we think we should. | 14:16 |
| RST38h | Personally, I think the right categories should be checke don Nokai repos submissions | 14:16 |
| lardman | RST38h: you're being defeatist again ;) | 14:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | We can solve the problem for good, quickly and easily. | 14:16 |
| RST38h | Extras, etc | 14:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | So we should solve it. | 14:16 |
| RST38h | For 3rd party repos, allow whatever shit they have, but make them aware that they won't get nice icons in app manager | 14:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not stupidly not solve it for stupid reasons. | 14:16 |
| RST38h | Just a generic Unknown icon | 14:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not getting nicely localized strings doesn't do shit as it stands | 14:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Icons wont change that. | 14:17 |
| lardman | why is that easier than just forcing them into the correct categories? | 14:17 |
| RST38h | lardman: Just trying to warn people off megalomania | 14:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pfft | 14:17 |
| RST38h | lardman: Forcing people is wrong | 14:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | As opposed to rejecting packages from the autobuilder for non-compliance? | 14:17 |
| lardman | RST38h: no, not in this case | 14:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | This isn't about freedom of speech. | 14:18 |
| Jaffa | This is about a good user experience. | 14:18 |
| lardman | RST38h: it's annoying, people should follow the guidelines, if there's some compelling reason for them not to, we will listen | 14:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | We're preventing lame packagers from screwing up the user experience. | 14:18 |
| RST38h | This isn't. This is about fucking up people in general sense. | 14:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | :rolleyes: | 14:18 |
| lardman | RST38h: no it isn't | 14:18 |
| RST38h | I am totally ok about enforcing stuff in Nokia repos (i.e. Extras) | 14:18 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Which people? Give an example of a valid use-case and I'll change my mind. | 14:18 |
| lardman | RST38h: there should be no other repos! ;) | 14:19 |
| RST38h | But why everybody is so bent on forcing plunger up 3rd party repo holders? | 14:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Extras isn't a Nokia repository. | 14:19 |
| RST38h | General: Ok, Maemo | 14:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | What plunger? | 14:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | No. | 14:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | maemo.org | 14:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Maemo is Nokia. | 14:19 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Let us say there is some HAM guy with his own repo | 14:19 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: And he marks packages as user/ham | 14:19 |
| RST38h | or user/java | 14:19 |
| RST38h | etc. | 14:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | If they have issues with the package policy then they should address them. | 14:20 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Why so you want to prevent his packages from shownig in app manager? | 14:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Um? | 14:20 |
| RST38h | s/so/do/ | 14:20 |
| infobot | RST38h meant: Jaffa: Why do you want to prevent his packages from shownig in app manager? | 14:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | No, they just end up in Others. | 14:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Bizarre conversation. . . . | 14:20 |
| RST38h | Ok, so you want to classify anything else as Others? | 14:20 |
| Jaffa | Yes | 14:21 |
| RST38h | This is slightly better than disallowing it | 14:21 |
| X-Fade | Just like you use 'All' now ;) | 14:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Bizarre. . . . | 14:21 |
| RST38h | Would you consider making their user-defined category names subcategories of Others? | 14:21 |
| lardman | we were considering "non-conformant crap", but that was disallowed | 14:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, if you're not gonna bother to follow the discussion, then don't just in with random conclusions. | 14:21 |
| RST38h | General: I am at work. Can't follow the whole discussion, sorry. | 14:21 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Sub-categories which have a capital letter are shown un-i18ned ('Boingo', 'Canola' or some other J. Random crap app which is separated into a billion packages) | 14:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then try not to jump out screaming. | 14:22 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: There is no i18n available for random categories. That is not very nice for non-english languages. | 14:22 |
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| Jaffa | s/are shown/should be shown/ | 14:22 |
| infobot | Jaffa meant: RST38h: Sub-categories which have a capital letter should be shown un-i18ned ('Boingo', 'Canola' or some other J. Random crap app which is separated into a billion packages) | 14:22 |
| lardman | RST38h: most of the discussion is on the mailing list | 14:22 |
| RST38h | general: I try not to, most of the time. | 14:22 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: I don't think anybody has problems with English category names | 14:22 |
| RST38h | Never seen anyone complain | 14:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | megalomania and fucking is a bit over the top. | 14:23 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Well, then you really don't know much about user experience ;) | 14:23 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: It is just plain bad to force English on people. | 14:24 |
| * Jaffa goes to find some food. | 14:24 | |
| * X-Fade too | 14:24 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | Hrm, got this off-list (probably accidentally): I'd add something like user/science Science Scientific and engineering applications for things like Sysquake, Octave, R, 3D molecule display, | 14:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Probably not an unreasonable addition as we already have Education | 14:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Though I don't know what would go in there at the moment. | 14:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | I suppose at worst it would simply remain unseen and unused. | 14:27 |
| lardman | Well Octave, R and Gnuplot exist, even if not in Extras yet | 14:27 |
| X-Fade | I think we shouldn't add too much categories. | 14:27 |
| lardman | I agree with that, what about sticking them in Education or Office? | 14:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hrm | 14:28 |
| X-Fade | I'm really not sure about eductation either. | 14:28 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: You are not forcing English on people, just allowing 3rd party repos have english-only cateories | 14:28 |
| *** hrw|gone is now known as hrw | 14:28 | |
| lardman | RST38h: that's poor form | 14:28 |
| RST38h | General: Why not rename Education to Science | 14:28 |
| RST38h | ? | 14:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well | 14:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, there are already packages in Extras which could go in Education | 14:29 |
| lardman | Why is Education even in there, what will go in it? | 14:29 |
| RST38h | And there are some that could go to Science as well | 14:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | and flash card games for 8-year-olds aren't Science | 14:29 |
| RST38h | Ok, agreed | 14:29 |
| RST38h | Then have two separate categories | 14:29 |
| lardman | do they even need a category though, Utilities/Accessories or the like | 14:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | gcompris for one | 14:29 |
| lardman | let's stick HAM Radio Apps back in then on the off chance ;) | 14:29 |
| RST38h | Why not make a separate category for gcompris? It is huge =) | 14:29 |
| * GeneralAntilles would rather not see gcompris's million-and-one language packs ever again. | 14:30 | |
| lardman | RST38h: no! | 14:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Education | 14:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Done. | 14:30 |
| RST38h | lardman: and don't forget model railroading! | 14:30 |
| RST38h | lardman: and flashlights | 14:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK, well, consider this | 14:30 |
| lardman | perhaps s/Office/Productivity | 14:30 |
| RST38h | lardman: No., | 14:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Current proposal is 11 categories | 14:30 |
| * aquatix isn't productive at office | 14:31 | |
| GeneralAntilles | In windowed mode, the current category view with Jaffa's patch shows | 14:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | 15 categories | 14:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | 12 without any scrolling at all | 14:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | The 5th line has a few pixels worth of scrolling | 14:31 |
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| GeneralAntilles | So we've got room for one more category easy. | 14:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | and 3 more after that if we shave a few pixels off the button height. | 14:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Though that doesn't consider non-English i18n. | 14:33 |
| RST38h | Replace ugly text buttons with icons (with small inscriptions) and fit as many categories as possible without scrolling | 14:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, I had proposed that, but freedesktop.org uses Office. | 14:33 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: let's see how it goes and we can make changes as we go along | 14:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, now's the time. ;) | 14:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think we should add user/science | 14:34 |
| RST38h | If you have got ~700x400 space, it will be ~21x12 32x32 icons | 14:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd like to resolve as many categories as possible before we start changing code. | 14:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | 32x32 is too small | 14:35 |
| lardman | the code is generic, that's the point | 14:35 |
| RST38h | ok, let us bump it up... | 14:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | For reference, the statusbar icons are 40x40 | 14:35 |
| RST38h | 10x6 64x64 icons is still 60 categories without scrolling | 14:35 |
| lardman | but yes, let's go with science then | 14:35 |
| RST38h | General: Let us go with 64x64 - it is a standard Maemo size and should be large enough | 14:35 |
| lardman | I'd prefer a list/tree view down one side personally | 14:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, honestly, I'd like to see several views implemented. | 14:36 |
| lardman | true | 14:36 |
| lcuk | +1 gren | 14:36 |
| lcuk | -r | 14:37 |
| aquatix | yeah, several views would be cool | 14:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | There's really no reason to force everybody to one view unless you come up with something that's just unbelievably, ridiculously awesome. | 14:37 |
| lcuk | hello chaps | 14:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | There's a shitton of room on the toolbar | 14:37 |
| aquatix | treeview, grid (with and without icons?) | 14:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just add a couple (normal small size) buttons on the right side. | 14:37 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, no 1 view suits all: a collection of data has many different ways of being displayed | 14:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | https://wiki.maemo.org/User:GeneralAntilles/Improving_the_Application_manager | 14:37 |
| lcuk | just one will do gen - it opens a small menu of options (see windows explorer...) | 14:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | aquatix, those were my proposals. | 14:38 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: ah :) | 14:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ew, dropdowns. | 14:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, Finder has buttons for each. :) | 14:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | We're not going to have more than 3 views, though. | 14:38 |
| lcuk | finder has a lot of free space | 14:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | So having a text-dropdown isn't really all that useful | 14:39 |
| lcuk | i dont mean text dropdown | 14:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | As the longest text string will likely take up almost as much space as at least 2 icons. | 14:39 |
| lcuk | and why only 3 - if i come up with a whizzbang new way of listing it - it should be available | 14:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | icon-only dropdowns are clunky | 14:39 |
| lcuk | likewise yourself - you could find a brilliant new way to organize them | 14:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, see Sketch's method of selecting brush size. | 14:39 |
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| lcuk | i dont just mean one or the other - but a way to select from available items is required | 14:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | We've got plenty of room on the toolbar | 14:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | If we need more than 3 views, then we cross that bridge when we come to it. | 14:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | For now, I prefer the method that requires fewer taps. | 14:40 |
| lcuk | but isnt this something you choose and then use? | 14:40 |
| lcuk | its not like you jump around switching views (after you have chosen) | 14:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | I do in Finder. | 14:41 |
| lcuk | most people find the view they are comfortable with and continue to use it cos they anticipate where things will be | 14:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then stick it in the application menu. | 14:42 |
| lcuk | fine, np | 14:42 |
| lardman | yep, in the menu | 14:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/tion/tion's/ | 14:42 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles meant: Then stick it in the application's menu. | 14:42 |
| lcuk | just doesnt need buttons because as new views come along you will stress about placement | 14:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Menu: View -> List, Grid, Column | 14:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't think there will be a lot of new views coming, personally. | 14:42 |
| lcuk | cloud | 14:43 |
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| lcuk | details | 14:43 |
| lardman | well people can of course submit patches | 14:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | We've been stuck with the same shitty single-column list of buttons for two years. | 14:43 |
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| GeneralAntilles | and h-a-m has been open for all that time. | 14:43 |
| Jaffa | Despite it being a 3 line patch to make it better | 14:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, after the flurry of patches over the last few days | 14:43 |
| Jaffa | (not wonderful, but at least the grid is less scrolly) | 14:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | I was asking myself why it took so long. | 14:43 |
| lcuk | motivation | 14:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | Any chance on getting it to remember scroll position? | 14:44 |
| lardman | it's only a minor annoyance, down the bottom of my list of things to do | 14:44 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: not looked | 14:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's less of an issue since the amount of scrolling has been drastically reduced, but still. | 14:44 |
| lcuk | lardman, like most things - "mmnmmn that looks wrong" but by the time you have finished the thought you have done what you want | 14:44 |
| lardman | yep | 14:45 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: I was prompted by a) Mrs Jaffa being away on Sunday; b) not wanting to hack on code models for Valable; c) realising no-one else was doing it; d) it being a trivial patch; e) the package categories task meaning that there's some benefit of it in | 14:46 |
| Jaffa | pretends/some benefit of it in/some likelihood of it being useful/ | 14:47 |
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| lcuk | jaffa, for such a simple tweak it might actually work - if it gets people looking inside the other categroies and asking questions thats a start | 14:50 |
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| GeneralAntilles | It's amazing how allnameswereout manages to involve _being American_ into every single discussion. | 14:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/involve/bring/ | 14:54 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles meant: It's amazing how allnameswereout manages to bring _being American_ into every single discussion. | 14:54 |
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| lardman | GeneralAntilles: url? | 14:57 |
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| GeneralAntilles | In this case: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=237259&postcount=100 | 14:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | snav needs to die already. | 14:58 |
| lardman | lol @ thread | 14:59 |
| lardman | glad I don't bother reading that one, would have sore sides all day | 14:59 |
| * RST38h anticipates a good troll | 15:00 | |
| GeneralAntilles | There are a bunch of spam posters now | 15:00 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: about background.. that does explain some things, i am quite sure some of my grumpiness comes from my 9 years in a irc support channel and helping people :P | 15:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | They write up 3-page long posts full of rambling nonsense | 15:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, retail makes you hate people. | 15:00 |
| Stskeeps | yes, it does | 15:00 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I had an old an old guy come in and ask me if I knew a pharmacy where they would develop nude photos. | 15:01 |
| Jaffa | "Octave" must be the worst named product in existence (looking at GeneralAntilles' change to Task:Package_categories - I *always* think it'll have something to do with music... but it doesn't, does it? | 15:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | That was my 3rd week working there at the age of 16. | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | there's a reason we have a "hate customers".dk page | 15:01 |
| RST38h | General: You want a sure method to make allnameswereout flinch? | 15:02 |
| lardman | Jaffa: no, but octaves are mathematical after all ;) | 15:02 |
| RST38h | General: Ask him questions: where he works, what he does for living, how old he is | 15:02 |
| lopz | hola | 15:02 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Or the asshole that talked into a cellphone headset that wasn't connected to anything while he was checking or asking for information | 15:03 |
| RST38h | He will probably end up being a variation of Darius | 15:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/or/out or/ | 15:03 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles meant: Or the asshole that talked into a cellphone headset that wasn't connected to anything while he was checking out or asking for information | 15:03 |
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| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, you should have told the old guy you would develop his porn collection for him | 15:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, it's funny, I have an entirely different recollection of that experience than anybody else | 15:04 |
| lcuk | lol - was it bad dodgy shifty? | 15:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | I recall it raining outside and him having me backed up against the sales tablet with only the single light fixture directly above us lit. | 15:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | :shudders: | 15:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | I was such a sheltered kid back then, too. <_< | 15:05 |
| lcuk | go on, add to the drama (you could sell the rights to this screenplay) | 15:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I'm convinced I need to get with my old manager and write a book at some point. | 15:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | We used to carry a paperback called "What Cops Know" http://www.amazon.com/What-Cops-Know-Connie-Fletcher/dp/0671750402 | 15:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | "What Bookstore Clerks Know" | 15:07 |
| lcuk | The Chronicles of Antilles : dodgy porn mac guy | 15:07 |
| * GeneralAntilles recalls the year the gay pride parade took place right out front. | 15:07 | |
| aquatix | http://notalwaysright.com/ <- `hate customers' ? | 15:07 |
| lcuk | omg, that must have been terrifying | 15:07 |
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| GeneralAntilles | The St. Pete gay community aint the SF gay community, either. | 15:08 |
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| lcuk | all those gay people waving flags and having fun and cheering and getting on together | 15:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Actually, it was an interesting experience | 15:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | The 300lbs sweaty guys in leather were a bit terrifying, though. | 15:08 |
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| * qwerty12_N800 is reminded of Borat at Washington DC | 15:09 | |
| lcuk | heh - did you cower and weep? | 15:09 |
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| glass | a enterpreneaur/plant owner once told me of one guy he did some negotiations with, the guy was a very short fellow, but had in his office a very low seat for the visitor and a very high chair for himself | 15:09 |
| glass | no wonder that the guy was an ahole | 15:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 15:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's interesting what you learn about people working retail | 15:09 |
| lcuk | im reminded of the geek guy from wild hogs :D | 15:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | I have a whole different view of educators now | 15:10 |
| glass | this guy who told me this was 190cm or so and laughed about it | 15:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Elementary school teachers pretty much treat everybody they interact with like 3rd graders. | 15:10 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles/lardman: I agree entirely with qgil's email about the meeting next week. GeneralAntilles: have fun with the admin ;-) | 15:10 |
| lcuk | glass, putting yourself on level with someone has a very psychological effect, people do all sorts of things to get round it - the best i saw was a wheelchair that allowed raising and lowering so eye contact remained | 15:11 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, that's 5 blogs for you. | 15:11 |
| glass | lcuk: yeah but the effect fades if it's so obvious that he's trying to do it | 15:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Only problem I see with running the meeting is that Quim A. knows the people and B. knows the product and the infrastructure | 15:12 |
| glass | lcuk: the raising wheelchairs give more independence too, being able to reach higher places | 15:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | I do not. | 15:12 |
| glass | in stupidly designed elevators etc | 15:12 |
| glass | i guess they're expensive tho | 15:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | There's still a lot of issues coming up in Sprints that I really don't have a clue about. | 15:13 |
| * GeneralAntilles glares at Nemien | 15:13 | |
| lcuk | good point glass - yes they are expensive - the one i saw was based on segway type technology and could alter its stance and remain balance | 15:13 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Perhaps Tero could sub in for Quim for that, though. | 15:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | But has he been to a sprint yet? | 15:15 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: He should be there from now on. | 15:15 |
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| X-Fade | Any bash gurus around who can tell me how to show only the duplicate lines in a file? | 15:17 |
| lcuk | glass iBot : http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=muhUbfhZxlI | 15:18 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: sort | uniq -d | 15:18 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Thanks, was focussing too much on sort ;) | 15:19 |
| Jaffa | :) | 15:19 |
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| Jaffa | Damn. Run out of strong painkillers. That's unfortunate. | 15:22 |
| Jaffa | May have to leave work early. Ho hum. | 15:22 |
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| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: any big ideas on how to proceed with the whole fremantle / upstream thing? make proofs of concepts and show where problems arise, prototypes for base OS'es? | 15:22 |
| lcuk | :( jaffa, i keep buying weak ones from nearby supermarket - they must think im addicted | 15:22 |
| lcuk | and jaffa - notice how NOONE ever wants to send even tiny bits of videos anywhere ever | 15:23 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, I'd start with a wiki page outlining everything relevant you can think up off the top of your head in some detail. | 15:23 |
| lcuk | ive seen lots of video type threads over the years, and dont think ive ever seen a request for example video fullfilled | 15:23 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: k | 15:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think Nokia can probably handle the concrete stuff. | 15:24 |
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| Stskeeps | regarding maemo platform portability or "ideas for a base maemo"? | 15:24 |
| lardman | hmm, I emailed MetrO and asked if I could port the code for the tablets and they just flat out refused | 15:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Any upstream compatibility issues. | 15:24 |
| lcuk | lardman, metro or -metro? | 15:24 |
| lcuk | -metro | 15:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, Quim would be a good person to talk to about the best place to focus efforts, though. | 15:24 |
| lardman | just the kind of thing to annoy me enough to reverse engineer their format | 15:24 |
| lcuk | imetro even | 15:24 |
| lardman | yeah, imetro, all that stuff | 15:25 |
| lardman | http://www.nanika.net/Metro/ | 15:25 |
| lcuk | yeah the one i looked at last night | 15:25 |
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| GeneralAntilles | It's hilarious how people want to hold on so tightly to their stupid public transportation maps. | 15:25 |
| lcuk | seems like an odd thing - specially since they talk about utilization on devices and stuff | 15:26 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, in all fairness, their service does cover pretty much all the world | 15:26 |
| lardman | looks like they sell their wares | 15:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, well, even individual transit system. | 15:26 |
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| lardman | people seem to give them maps for free though | 15:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/system/systems/ | 15:26 |
| infobot | GeneralAntilles meant: lcuk, well, even individual transit systems. | 15:26 |
| lcuk | no, the data is pretty much public already - go upstream from imetro and you will find it | 15:26 |
| lcuk | from the same sources and providers imetro currently has | 15:27 |
| lardman | http://www.nanika.net/Metro/MetroS-en.html | 15:27 |
| vincenzo88 | Please, i have a big problem with my N810. The Nokia freeze on the boot (screen "NOKIA"). Someone have a solution ? | 15:27 |
| lcuk | pop the battery for a while, put it back in and see | 15:27 |
| vincenzo88 | Don't work :( | 15:27 |
| lcuk | if its still bad, take one reflashing and come back in the morning | 15:27 |
| lardman | lcuk: looks like individual contributors though http://www.nanika.net/Metro/MetroR-en.html | 15:28 |
| melmoth | vincenzo88: reflash it | 15:28 |
| vincenzo88 | Ok i will search a methode to reflash :( | 15:28 |
| lcuk | yes lardman, kindof like the cddb thing... | 15:28 |
| lcuk | vincenzo88, its not the end of the world, and for future reference if you put required data on there keep a backup - same with all computers | 15:29 |
| lcuk | ~flashing | 15:29 |
| infobot | well, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware | 15:29 |
| lcuk | lardman, i know about manchester metro, but i know nothing about your local one | 15:30 |
| vincenzo88 | Thanks for the link, i pray for its work | 15:30 |
| lardman | lcuk: I just find it annoying | 15:30 |
| lcuk | thats why i said last night start simple with yous - if people find it useful they may start to offer their own | 15:30 |
| lcuk | agreed 100% | 15:30 |
| lcuk | vincenzo88, extremely rare that reflashing doesnt cure it | 15:30 |
| lardman | lcuk: I'll sit down and work out their database format, and then we (the community) can use their data and write an app | 15:31 |
| lardman | seems fair to me :) | 15:31 |
| lcuk | sounds reasonable- they offer an offline app dont they | 15:31 |
| hrw | Ari Virtanen - someone knows who he is? | 15:31 |
| lardman | yep, that's the one to target, the online one could be used quite easily I expect | 15:31 |
| lardman | lunch time | 15:31 |
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| lcuk | Vice President, Convergence Products, | 15:32 |
| lcuk | Multimedia, Nokia | 15:32 |
| lcuk | hrw ^ | 15:32 |
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| suihkulokki | Ari is (or it seems, was) a big level boss at N (far above anything technical) | 15:32 |
| hrw | aha | 15:33 |
| lcuk | i must vanish also, nice chatting as always | 15:33 |
| hrw | bbl | 15:33 |
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| Jaffa | There are two Aris related to the tablets: Ari Virtanen is more peripherally involved than Ari Jaaksi, AIUI | 15:34 |
| Stskeeps | suihkulokki: happen to know why a ubuntu minbase seems more.. minimal, than a debian minbase debootstrap? did they do special work within this area? | 15:35 |
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| Stskeeps | (apologies for any weird questions today, at work and running a fever :) | 15:36 |
| melmoth | GRumble... where did the "how to reflash the os" page went now ? | 15:36 |
| * melmoth hates wiki | 15:36 | |
| melmoth | you never find stuff you need in such a chaotic way or storing stuff | 15:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~flashing | 15:37 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware | 15:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's right on the damn front page, melmoth. | 15:37 |
| suihkulokki | Stskeeps: I presume the mojo minbase has been handbuilt | 15:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | and in the Users section | 15:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | and pops right up when you search for flashing | 15:37 |
| melmoth | did you try to follow the link ? | 15:37 |
| Stskeeps | suihkulokki: true, that's possible | 15:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | The one infobot just linked? | 15:37 |
| Stskeeps | suihkulokki: it seemed pretty functional though | 15:38 |
| melmoth | yep | 15:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, works fine. | 15:38 |
| melmoth | grumble | 15:38 |
| melmoth | not here | 15:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Reload | 15:38 |
| suihkulokki | Stskeeps: I doubt minimal ubuntu built using debootstrap (as done on normal install) is much different in size | 15:38 |
| melmoth | ok. Works better | 15:38 |
| melmoth | thanks | 15:38 |
| suihkulokki | Stskeeps: you can do a "dpkg -l" in the ubuntu and debian and compare | 15:38 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. might eventually | 15:39 |
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| * suihkulokki wonders if mojo nowdays is hiding any usefull patches | 15:45 | |
| Stskeeps | i hand-wrote the debootstrap script for hasty.. which they were hiding quite well how to debootstrap from | 15:45 |
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| suihkulokki | * Removed qt-perl dependency since we're still finishing ARM + KDE | 15:46 |
| suihkulokki | * removed java and objc depends for arm | 15:46 |
| suihkulokki | *yawn* | 15:46 |
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| johnx | Stskeeps, you hand wrote it? I just changed the config to debootstrap hardy heron a little... | 15:48 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: well, okay, butchered, maybe | 15:48 |
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| Stskeeps | i just wonder what deblet project position should be if nokia decides they want to pursue a open base platform (which would serve quite well in the distro ecosystem), - experimental ground to get to that point? | 15:49 |
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| Stskeeps | and ways to document the problems and why the changes should exist | 15:52 |
| johnx | well if the maemo GUI layer can be hosted easily on debian at that point, having a more "full" base system to install on SD would be a good goal | 15:53 |
| johnx | also, Nokia will always be farther behind than sid in picking up new software | 15:53 |
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| Stskeeps | true, but if it can be constructed in such a way it isn't difficult to change repos, for instance | 15:54 |
| Stskeeps | i was thinking possibility of in-flash OS + aufs | 15:54 |
| Stskeeps | so it overflows into sd | 15:54 |
| * GeneralAntilles sighs at allnameswereout bringing more randomness to the wiki. | 15:55 | |
| johnx | actually I (and others) have been thinking about that for pandora, and it doesn't seem to have many benefits compared to root-on-sd | 15:55 |
| RST38h | General: link? | 15:56 |
| johnx | it basically presents a lot of nightmare scenarios for inconsistent dpkg states | 15:56 |
| Stskeeps | why is that so? consider readonly internal flash, write sd? | 15:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | https://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Package_categories | 15:57 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, are we talking about being able to boot from flash and sd independently? | 15:58 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: well, let's imagine a n810 scenario - have a rootfs in flash, that's read only, let changes register on internal SD | 15:58 |
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| Stskeeps | to revert to factory, erase internal SD | 15:59 |
| Stskeeps | like on a livecd for instance | 15:59 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, so never writing to the internal NAND? | 15:59 |
| johnx | that's somewhat interesting I guess | 15:59 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: that's a possibility | 15:59 |
| RST38h | Looks harmless so far | 15:59 |
| Stskeeps | maybe for SSU | 15:59 |
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| johnx | after a couple SSUs most of your base system will be on SD though | 15:59 |
| RST38h | General: But all this really made me think: Ok, everybody has his own category names and everybody wants their own | 16:00 |
| johnx | RST38h, "everyone wants to tell you what color to paint the barn." | 16:00 |
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| RST38h | General: Why not collect all the existing category names, form all sources, no matter how bizarre, and mape them internally to our categories? | 16:00 |
| RST38h | Kinda like associative memory | 16:00 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: AUFS seems to have some interesting features | 16:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't want to encourage invalid category usage | 16:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Other is punishment for not either A. Picking a valid category or B. Getting your category into the list of valid ones. | 16:01 |
| Jaffa | Might have a quick look at my tablet and see the craziest categories and where their packages would go | 16:01 |
| RST38h | johnx: Oh, I have had lots of that - when a bunch of busybodies decided they wanted to "extend" .NES format | 16:01 |
| johnx | as long as they're painting the barn themselves I tend not to care | 16:02 |
| * RST38h left lots of people pissed then, especially considering their average age at the time =) | 16:02 | |
| johnx | but *no one* tells me how to paint my barn :) | 16:02 |
| RST38h | johnx: and as long as it is not your barn I assume | 16:02 |
| johnx | well, as long as they're willing to fork my barn first, then paint | 16:02 |
| RST38h | General: it's not really an encouragment, just making app manager's guts a little bit smarter | 16:03 |
| Stskeeps | 10 minute countdown till you start talking about hay and cows.. | 16:03 |
| RST38h | 'cause they will use wrong categories no matter what =( | 16:03 |
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| RST38h | Sts: moo? =) | 16:03 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 16:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, so you figure, eh? | 16:03 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, I used to do tech support. Be very afraid of how far I can extend an analogy... | 16:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Welll I've emailed with most of them and a lot of them have already switched to valid categories | 16:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sooo . . . . | 16:03 |
| RST38h | General: But new ones pop out daily! =) | 16:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not really | 16:04 |
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| RST38h | Can't mail them all, especially if Maemo does become popular | 16:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | I've got the same list of invalid categories I had 3 weeks ago | 16:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Besides | 16:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Invalid categories stem more from people not knowing the valid set than actively disobeying it. | 16:04 |
| RST38h | Well, maybe you are right: if you absolutely force right categories people will end up adhering to them | 16:05 |
| Jaffa | Indeed | 16:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | You were pretty insistent that people wouldn't use Extras a few months ago, too, as I recall. | 16:05 |
| RST38h | Can a category be assigned during promotion to extras, using web interface? | 16:05 |
| Jaffa | you figure, eh? | 16:05 |
| RST38h | General: Some still don't | 16:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | But the honest truth is that most maintainers want to do The Right Thing. | 16:05 |
| Jaffa | s/.*// | 16:05 |
| RST38h | Our friend pupnik for example ;) | 16:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | There will always be outliers | 16:05 |
| johnx | Unix is all about 80% solutions :) | 16:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, that has nothing to do with him not wanting to, though. | 16:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | He's certainly not running his own repository out of protest. | 16:06 |
| RST38h | General: Last time I checked, he wasn't sure about quality | 16:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Time would seem to be the bigger factor. | 16:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, hrm, can we do that? If a package is uploaded through the assistant and has an invalid category, can the uploader be offered a list of valid ones to pick from? | 16:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then it can just be corrected by the assistant. | 16:08 |
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| RST38h | *or* it can be done by promoter | 16:09 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, think there is significant benefit in hacking around with LD_LIBRARY_PATH compared to using a chroot to run maemo apps in debian? | 16:09 |
| qwerty12_N800 | RST38h, it would leave ham's categories looking odd though if -devel is on the repository list | 16:10 |
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| * GeneralAntilles sighs at Nokia not even being willing to apply a stupid fullscreen patch to control panel. | 16:11 | |
| RST38h | qwerty: true | 16:11 |
| qwerty12_N800 | it works great as well :( | 16:11 |
| RST38h | so, they really have to be enforced starting with -devel | 16:11 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: I have just coded up the warning, but I guess I can change the .changes file.. | 16:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | The idiot product managers should just be straight with us (for once) and say that they wont accept patches for a particular product. | 16:11 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: that's a good question. | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: we speaking maemo-gtk? | 16:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, warning still works for dput? | 16:12 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Warning in assistant. | 16:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: it's good for proving that it's possible to run dual-gtk.. | 16:12 |
| RST38h | General: THAT would harm developer relations and make Quim's job more difficult | 16:12 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, well, maemo-gtk is the root. Debian's hildon is patched to not need maemo-gtk, right? | 16:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, well, leave the warning for if they choose to ignore the option to switch to a valid category, then? :D | 16:12 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: If you use dput, then the warning will come from the autobuilder. | 16:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, hey, at least it would be honest. | 16:13 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: well the define isn't enabled in configure, yeah | 16:13 |
| RST38h | So, the right (from management point of view) way to deal with this is assure developers of good intentions and stonewall | 16:13 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: I can add a select box, should be doable. | 16:13 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: fairly simple to enable though | 16:13 |
| RST38h | General: You do not get promoted to management by being honest. | 16:13 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, ah well, I'll give this a shot and tell you if it's doomed | 16:13 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: what example app are you trying with? | 16:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, well, the alternative is me beating them about the head and shoulders with a frozen trout until they are. | 16:14 |
| johnx | haven't gotten that far. I'm still reading af-defines.sh | 16:14 |
| Stskeeps | k | 16:15 |
| johnx | suggestions? | 16:15 |
| johnx | I was thinking maemopad I guess | 16:15 |
| Stskeeps | i guess it's a good way to test | 16:16 |
| johnx | one of the most maemo-y apps should be a good starting place | 16:16 |
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| Stskeeps | from compile or from binary, btw? | 16:17 |
| johnx | a maemo binary | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | k | 16:18 |
| johnx | I'm treating this as "learn by doing" :) | 16:18 |
| Stskeeps | the wider experiment is recompiling maemo gtk but changing it into installing into other include dirs and lib dirs, and providing a pkg-config "maemo-gtk" | 16:18 |
| Stskeeps | which points to right lib dirs and stuff | 16:19 |
| RST38h | General: You want the real alternative? | 16:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ship my own distribution so I don't have to deal with their nonsense. | 16:20 |
| Stskeeps | GAblet | 16:20 |
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| johnx | Stskeeps, yeah, that sounds like a better effort to sink time into. Let's see how far I get | 16:22 |
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| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, signed packages should not be tampered with (as far as I am aware - this is the point of signing) i know the requirement is gone now, but if ppl still upload as signed we shouldnt touch them | 16:25 |
| johnx | ...then we can save weird hacks for things that can't be recompiled | 16:25 |
| * lcuk pushes his scrollbar to the bottom - sorry missed half a convo :S | 16:25 | |
| Stskeeps | lack of bacon, lcuk? :P | 16:26 |
| lcuk | must be | 16:26 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, good point. | 16:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade? :P | 16:28 |
| lcuk | heh | 16:28 |
| lcuk | bbl | 16:28 |
| lcuk | glad itt has stopped ;) | 16:29 |
| lcuk | for now | 16:29 |
| X-Fade | Let's keep it as a warning for now. | 16:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Rgr | 16:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, allnameswereout never stops. | 16:29 |
| X-Fade | And present a link to the proper documentation. | 16:29 |
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| dmsuperman | Have we got a good google calendar alarm app for maemo yet? | 16:33 |
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| johnx | dmsuperman, have you checked out mcalendar? | 16:34 |
| dmsuperman | johnx: Yeah, it doesn't seem to sync | 16:34 |
| dmsuperman | It seems _fantastic_ otherwise | 16:34 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: i'll try to get some patches for maemo gtk+ to make it as i described | 16:34 |
| dmsuperman | A perfect calendar app but it won't sync right with google calendar | 16:35 |
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| dmsuperman | Neither up nor down | 16:35 |
| johnx | dmsuperman, I'm sure it's supposed to. I think it's worth trying to contact the author of that app to try and get it sorted out | 16:37 |
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| dmsuperman | johnx: From what I hear it's a common problem, but I'll give that a try | 16:39 |
| dmsuperman | It's not like it just plain doesn't work. Occasionally, if I do it manually, it'll download events | 16:39 |
| dmsuperman | But never automatically, and it never syncs up to the calendar | 16:39 |
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| Stskeeps | johnx: think i'll get beaten up if i simply do the trick by changing api ver? | 16:47 |
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| Stskeeps | so it's pkg-config --libs gtk+-2.0-maemo and likes? | 16:47 |
| RST38h | Priceless: http://www.advertka.ru/media/prints/15811/ | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | not sure if it conflicts with -doc though | 16:47 |
| RST38h | (made in Finland) | 16:47 |
| johnx | is there a reason that's better/easier than maemogtk+-2.0? | 16:48 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: one line change | 16:48 |
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| disco_stu | RST38h: is that a fake animal, right ? | 16:48 |
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| Stskeeps | and it is indeed, an api ver derivation | 16:48 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, sure, then why not? at least for testing | 16:48 |
| Stskeeps | k | 16:49 |
| * Stskeeps starts buildin' | 16:49 | |
| X-Fade | Wow, this application looks cool: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/ecoach/ | 16:49 |
| RST38h | disco_stu: The title says "Care about your dog, not about its gastrointestinal parasites" | 16:49 |
| RST38h | disco: so, yes, it is what you think it is | 16:49 |
| Stskeeps | X-Fade: indeed | 16:50 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: oh, cool, who is this guy? | 16:50 |
| Stskeeps | 3420B/s .. i wonder if mojo repos are running on maemo.org | 16:50 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: sampp | 16:50 |
| RST38h | is he working for Nokia by any chance? This looks like an offshot of the Sportstracker | 16:51 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: I can only see if he has a @nokia.com address, which he has not. So probably not working for Nokia. | 16:52 |
| johnx | Stskeeps, if you're going to work on that, I'll take a stab at running stuff unmodified via any means necessary, unless there's anything I can do to help? | 16:53 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: think i'll poke a bit at this for a while, maybe get a mojo up on the beagleboard | 16:54 |
| disco_stu | someone tried fennec in their n800 ? | 16:55 |
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| johnx | disco_stu, someone did. There's a thread on iTT about it, but I haven't tried it | 16:56 |
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| X-Fade | What mvo's idea to encode the categories as debtags? :) | 16:57 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: i wonder though, what's the majority of changes in maemo gtk, the extra API or the optimization/"more suitable for embedded" though | 16:58 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: ENOCONTEXT | 16:58 |
| Jaffa | tuukkah: http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Task:Package_categories&diff=0&oldid=8069 | 16:59 |
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| Jaffa | Oh, FFS. Why should 'ah: ' do that. Silly IRC client | 16:59 |
| Jaffa | s/tuukkah/ah/ | 17:00 |
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| johnx | Stskeeps, have yo seen this: http://live.gnome.org/Maemo/MaemoGtkChanges ? | 17:01 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 17:01 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: detags section in wiki page. | 17:01 |
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| Stskeeps | johnx: i've suggested the "apiver" change on the bug report dealing with seperate gtk vers | 17:03 |
| Stskeeps | let's see what they say | 17:03 |
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| johnx | Stskeeps, going from that list, one of the things I ran into was actually probably not a maemo-specific API change per se, but the fact that they made a private API available and it changed in gtk 2.12 (or 2.14?) | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | which one of them? | 17:08 |
| johnx | something to do with gtkfile* something I believe | 17:09 |
| Stskeeps | ah, the filechooser :P | 17:09 |
| johnx | I'd get you the exact error but apparently my OE build machine is down :/ | 17:10 |
| johnx | can someone in Canada hit the reboot button on a machine for me? | 17:10 |
| RST38h | How hard hit would you like? (in Mt) | 17:10 |
| johnx | RST38h, I need to *use* the server *after* you hit it. Adjust accordingly | 17:11 |
| RST38h | That would be problematic =) | 17:11 |
| johnx | I need to use it as something besides a semi-permanent night-light that is | 17:11 |
| RST38h | what kind of work are you doing, if it is not a secret of course? | 17:13 |
| johnx | RST38h, my day job? | 17:14 |
| RST38h | yea | 17:14 |
| johnx | I'm an English teacher :) | 17:14 |
| disco_stu | johnx: whats your age ? | 17:14 |
| Stskeeps | oh, i thought you were doing some tech stuff | 17:14 |
| RST38h | Ah, had to guess that =) | 17:14 |
| johnx | disco_stu, 25. And you? | 17:15 |
| disco_stu | 23 | 17:15 |
| * aquatix feels old at 26 | 17:15 | |
| johnx | Stskeeps, oh, I was. Probably will again. | 17:15 |
| disco_stu | haha | 17:15 |
| * RST38h is an old fart | 17:15 | |
| Stskeeps | <- 24, student programmer at some uni, getting my masters degree in september in comp.sci :P | 17:15 |
| RST38h | past the crucifixion age too | 17:15 |
| * aquatix has actually no idea what age that is | 17:16 | |
| aquatix | 34? | 17:16 |
| aquatix | or something | 17:16 |
| disco_stu | Stskeeps: i'm becoming a software engineer soon | 17:16 |
| disco_stu | well.. not that soon.. | 17:16 |
| johnx | <- school and him didn't mix. Got a job as a sys-admin, loved it. Got lured to Japan for a couple years with my then-girlfirend, now-wife | 17:16 |
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| RST38h | aquatix: 36 | 17:17 |
| RST38h | johnx: is she native? =) | 17:17 |
| aquatix | ah :) | 17:17 |
| aquatix | RST38h: that's not old ;) | 17:17 |
| johnx | RST38h, She's a native of the US actually | 17:17 |
| aquatix | johnx: an Indian? | 17:18 |
| aquatix | (is that the right word?) | 17:18 |
| johnx | aquatix, well, not what I meant :P | 17:18 |
| RST38h | Indean | 17:18 |
| aquatix | ghehe | 17:18 |
| RST38h | "feathers, not dots" | 17:18 |
| aquatix | RST38h: hm, interglot says Indian | 17:19 |
| disco_stu | i'm trying to get a keyboard for my n800 | 17:19 |
| * aquatix thinks only Indians are US natives ;) | 17:19 | |
| disco_stu | anyone used those folding kb's ? | 17:19 |
| aquatix | disco_stu: i have an iGo | 17:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | aquatix, really, nobody is native to anywhere. | 17:19 |
| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: true | 17:20 |
| johnx | aquatix, depends on how you define "native" | 17:20 |
| aquatix | we're all from Afrika/Asia | 17:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | One group of people or another was always the invaders at some point. | 17:20 |
| disco_stu | aquatix: cant find igo's here | 17:20 |
| johnx | you either say "no one is native" or "everyone is native of *somewhere*" | 17:20 |
| aquatix | disco_stu: yeah, they kinda stopped selling them :( | 17:20 |
| RST38h | General: yes but they are not the same people as the ones that have been born from them | 17:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd say native meaning "born there" seems like a reasonable definition. | 17:20 |
| disco_stu | aquatix: im in argentina :( | 17:20 |
| RST38h | disco: Any BT keyboard will do | 17:21 |
| aquatix | disco_stu: can't you let them mail you one? | 17:21 |
| RST38h | disco: I went for Apple one | 17:21 |
| aquatix | disco_stu: i got mine from the US too, through internet | 17:21 |
| johnx | RST38h, how's the koolaid? | 17:21 |
| disco_stu | dont know | 17:21 |
| RST38h | johnx: mmm? =) | 17:21 |
| johnx | RST38h, all apple produkts come with the free koolaid, right? | 17:22 |
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| aquatix | johnx: only with a reality distortion field ;) | 17:22 |
| RST38h | johnx: I haven't found any. maybe inside, instead of silicon? =) | 17:22 |
| * aquatix hides | 17:22 | |
| aquatix | but the apple bt keyboard is quite nice | 17:22 |
| RST38h | the keyboard looked pretty harmless in fact. had a little dent at the left side, god knows why | 17:22 |
| aquatix | RST38h: second hand? | 17:23 |
| lardman | Is it really bad form to let other people read an email addressed just to you? | 17:23 |
| RST38h | nope, new, from best Buy | 17:23 |
| disco_stu | i can find a bt keyboard for 250, and i can get an asus eeepc for 350 | 17:23 |
| johnx | so, RST38h, then I have to ask: What's your day job? | 17:23 |
| aquatix | lardman: depends | 17:23 |
| RST38h | lardman: I would ask your correspondent first | 17:23 |
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| lardman | hmm | 17:23 |
| RST38h | johnx: Software engineer in Intel ZAO | 17:23 |
| RST38h | johnx: Which is Intel's subsidiary in Moscow | 17:23 |
| aquatix | ZAO? | 17:24 |
| aquatix | ah :) | 17:24 |
| lardman | In which case I'll quote - told that they won't share sources, I said I wasn't too bothered about the sources, just the db format, and I was told this: "You wouldn't go very far with only the data format, unless you don't mind waiting a few minutes for a route calculation." | 17:24 |
| lardman | and then told that the db format is also closed | 17:24 |
| lardman | so the question is, do they think I'll be crap at writing routing code (and I'll be offended) or that they either pre-generate routes, or do it remotely (in which case it's interesting) | 17:25 |
| RST38h | aquatix: abbreviation for a company that is not publicly traded | 17:25 |
| RST38h | not sure what English equivalent will be | 17:25 |
| johnx | lardman, well they can't do it remotely, right? | 17:25 |
| lardman | johnx: I don;'t think so anyway | 17:26 |
| aquatix | RST38h: ah, i see | 17:26 |
| johnx | well, does routing work while offline? if yes, then... | 17:26 |
| qwerty12_N800 | RST38h, private limited company afaik | 17:26 |
| RST38h | lardman: Who are these guys? | 17:26 |
| johnx | RST38h, ah, the fun of trying to translate company names :) | 17:26 |
| RST38h | qwerty: Ah, LTD? | 17:26 |
| lardman | RST38h: metro people | 17:26 |
| aquatix | lardman: i missed the name of the app you're talking about; is that the nokia wayfinder? | 17:27 |
| aquatix | lardman: ah :) | 17:27 |
| RST38h | lardman: Are you talking subway map routing? (sorry) | 17:27 |
| lardman | yes | 17:27 |
| aquatix | but indeed, they seem to imply you suck at writing routing code | 17:27 |
| aquatix | but maybe they have additional routing info | 17:27 |
| qwerty12_N800 | RST38h, yeah | 17:27 |
| lardman | good, that annoys me and makes me even more likely to reverse engineer it | 17:27 |
| lcuk | well he does - else he wouldnt be asking for theirs :P | 17:27 |
| aquatix | lardman: :) | 17:27 |
| RST38h | johnx: The bottom line is that we are Intel, just getting paid in rubles at 1/2 the US salary rates :) | 17:27 |
| lardman | lcuk: :p | 17:28 |
| * aquatix would like to see MetrO OSS | 17:28 | |
| RST38h | qwerty: You can do your own routing pretty easily | 17:28 |
| lardman | http://www.nanika.net/Metro/ is the url | 17:28 |
| aquatix | lardman: lol | 17:28 |
| lcuk | heh - go lardman, in england reverse engineering a locked in data format is *only* 4 years in prison nowadays isnt it? | 17:28 |
| RST38h | qwerty: There is already an app that does it for Moscow subway. Want a link? | 17:28 |
| aquatix | lardman: that's the MetrO i talked about | 17:28 |
| aquatix | lardman: they're weird | 17:28 |
| lardman | lcuk: it's not locked as far as I can tell, it's also freely downloadable | 17:28 |
| aquatix | lardman: i offered help porting their app to uiq3 | 17:28 |
| aquatix | or even just beta testing | 17:29 |
| qwerty12_N800 | RST38h, it's lardman reversing it , not me :) | 17:29 |
| aquatix | they flat out refused | 17:29 |
| RST38h | ah | 17:29 |
| johnx | RST38h, does the cost of living scale in the same way? I don't mind saying that it's quite insane here... | 17:29 |
| RST38h | lardman: Want a link to the one made for Moscow? (you can talk to its author too) | 17:29 |
| lardman | aquatix: same here, I asked if I could port it to the tablets, they said no | 17:29 |
| lardman | RST38h: yeah go on | 17:29 |
| lcuk | lardman, with a pretty clear disclaimer, i think you would be better looking at it, expanding on it and then building yourown data unencombered from the reach of their eula and lawyers | 17:29 |
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| RST38h | johnx: it is quite insane here too, but we own our appartment, taxes are 13%, so it is not prohibitively expensive | 17:30 |
| aquatix | lardman: i rather like the app, but the attitude of the developer(s?) isn't too friendly | 17:30 |
| lardman | lcuk: getting the data is the problem I think | 17:30 |
| RST38h | johnx: most money is being spent on the school and house cleaning help | 17:30 |
| lcuk | now if a random blob appeared on the table i might take a peek and poke at it and see what connections it makes | 17:30 |
| melmoth | lardman: mind using metro information from openstreetmap ? Should be not that complicated. | 17:30 |
| lcuk | lardman - OSM has same problem - cddb has same problem | 17:30 |
| lcuk | open source communities overcome them | 17:31 |
| lardman | melmoth: does it exist? | 17:31 |
| melmoth | Remember the test i made with sayhoo for paris , that ended up eating too much memory ? With only subway station data, it should be usable without using all the memory of the tablet | 17:31 |
| lcuk | start with a simple to use and simple to update format that works for your local route requirements and expand from there | 17:31 |
| johnx | RST38h, ah, you have someplace big enough to need house cleaning? madness :P | 17:31 |
| aquatix | lardman: did you look at the downloadable db's? | 17:31 |
| melmoth | lardman: i know that i had subway station in the data i fetche from osm | 17:31 |
| lardman | melmoth: yes, routing on subways is very simple, which is why I feel I can be offended | 17:31 |
| aquatix | lardman: are they encrypted or something? | 17:31 |
| lardman | melmoth: ok, I'll look into it | 17:32 |
| lardman | aquatix: don;'t know yet, might just be simple Palm dbs for all I know | 17:32 |
| RST38h | lardman: https://garage.maemo.org/projects/metromap/ | 17:32 |
| aquatix | lardman: yeah | 17:32 |
| RST38h | johnx: ~112m^2 | 17:32 |
| johnx | RST38h, let me convert that into tatami mats... | 17:32 |
| lcuk | \o/ yayyyy 1000% times better to look at truely open alternatives ;) | 17:32 |
| RST38h | johnx: And it gets messed up pretty quick, with two children and somewhat hostile outside environment | 17:32 |
| RST38h | johnx: *9 will give you square feet | 17:33 |
| johnx | the children would do it I suppose :) | 17:33 |
| lardman | RST38h: no source | 17:33 |
| lcuk | bbl | 17:33 |
| johnx | RST38h, sadly I really do think in terms of tatami mats now... | 17:33 |
| RST38h | lardman: You remember wazd here? | 17:33 |
| aquatix | RST38h: any idea how up-to-date the info from metromap is? | 17:33 |
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| RST38h | lardman: He is the author | 17:33 |
| lardman | RST38h: ok, is he about these days? | 17:33 |
| RST38h | aquatix: it is up to date - the last station opened a few months ago :) | 17:34 |
| RST38h | lardman: Dunno, check! | 17:34 |
| lardman | ah, it's python anyway from the looks of it, no problem | 17:34 |
| RST38h | You can contact him via garage too | 17:34 |
| lardman | ~seen wazd | 17:34 |
| infobot | wazd <n=az@195.91.167.225> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 86d 25m 48s ago, saying: 'from the tablet'. | 17:34 |
| aquatix | RST38h: because for example in amsterdam, the trams tend to change route once in a while | 17:34 |
| RST38h | johnx: Oh, I came to the point where visiting US feels weird | 17:35 |
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| aquatix | or is this purely metro? | 17:35 |
| * aquatix should just install and try | 17:35 | |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: your last email raises another advantage of you at least co-chairing the next meeting: you can give Quim an action to enable more Nokia collaboration on all the stuff we're talking about with the App Mgr. It's gone beyond just changing the categories and the community are now leading the way - potentially down a blind alley. | 17:35 |
| RST38h | aquatix: It is fucking subway. The trains are the size of your normal intercity train | 17:35 |
| RST38h | aquatix: They run in tunnels too =) | 17:35 |
| aquatix | RST38h: myeah, i meant that MetrO from nannika.net has bus and tram info too | 17:36 |
| aquatix | quite useful | 17:36 |
| lardman | aquatix: bus routing would also be useful, if available | 17:36 |
| lardman | yes | 17:36 |
| aquatix | lardman: my point exactly :) | 17:36 |
| RST38h | I am pretty sure it can do buses as well but bus routes change too frequently | 17:36 |
| aquatix | RST38h: yeah | 17:36 |
| lardman | RST38h: hmm, not that often though | 17:36 |
| aquatix | that's why it would be nice if MetrO's people would cooperate | 17:36 |
| aquatix | they have a network of people that refresh the info | 17:37 |
| RST38h | aquatix: The routing problem is very very simple | 17:37 |
| aquatix | RST38h: true | 17:37 |
| aquatix | it's more about the data | 17:37 |
| RST38h | aquatix: As for the data sources, local transportation authority tries to keep all bus routes up to date on their web site | 17:37 |
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| lardman | aquatix: indeed, looks like people do the refreshing for free (http://www.nanika.net/Metro/MetroR-en.html and http://www.nanika.net/Metro/MetroC-en.html) | 17:37 |
| RST38h | I am pretty sure UK is no different | 17:37 |
| aquatix | lardman: yeah | 17:37 |
| aquatix | RST38h: true | 17:37 |
| aquatix | RST38h: same here in the netherlands | 17:37 |
| lardman | also need the route times | 17:37 |
| lardman | i.e. length of routes in minutes | 17:38 |
| RST38h | doesn't google do bus routing btw? | 17:38 |
| RST38h | lardman: no schedules at the web site? | 17:38 |
| disco_stu | i can find a bt keyboard for 250, and i can get an asus eeepc for 350 | 17:38 |
| lardman | RST38h: I don't want to look at a website | 17:38 |
| aquatix | http://www.gvb.nl/english/travellers/timetables/Pages/vertrektijden.aspx <- amsterdam data | 17:38 |
| lardman | I could always get a paper timetable ;) | 17:38 |
| RST38h | lardman: Why not? You are not looking, your app is | 17:38 |
| lardman | RST38h: yeah, so I need to write the code to scrape the websites too | 17:39 |
| johnx | RST38h, wait, 112m^2? O_o | 17:39 |
| RST38h | johnx: Yea | 17:39 |
| lardman | RST38h: I thought using existing data would be better all round | 17:39 |
| RST38h | johnx: This includes two balconies, two baths, kitchen, etc though | 17:39 |
| aquatix | RST38h: i'd prefer an offline solution | 17:39 |
| RST38h | lardman,aquatix: Make it update once a week, no problem there | 17:40 |
| aquatix | otherwise i could as well visit a site | 17:40 |
| lardman | aquatix: yeah I was talking off line too; scrape create db, use off line | 17:40 |
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| aquatix | RST38h: need to write a scraper though then | 17:40 |
| aquatix | lardman: :) | 17:40 |
| lardman | RST38h: you understimate the amount of work required to do the scraping | 17:40 |
| aquatix | scraping sucks | 17:40 |
| RST38h | aquatix: it is easier than making a bunch of humans surrender their "IP" to you | 17:40 |
| aquatix | and is slightly illegal iirc | 17:40 |
| * RST38h scapres regularly in different projects | 17:40 | |
| * aquatix too | 17:41 | |
| aquatix | but still | 17:41 |
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| johnx | RST38h, at best guess I'd say roughly a fifth of that if you're curious :) | 17:41 |
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| RST38h | johnx: you are not trying to say you have got a 22m^2 pad? | 17:42 |
| johnx | RST38h, less than that if you're only counting open floor space | 17:43 |
| RST38h | that is disturbingly smaller than an average shipping container | 17:43 |
| johnx | ha! | 17:43 |
| johnx | but shipping containers don't have plumbing and insulation | 17:44 |
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| johnx | you have no idea what a Tokyo-area apartment is like, huh? | 17:44 |
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| RST38h | I am now afraid to imagine | 17:44 |
| RST38h | Been to Taiwan, seen those rows of corroded 2/3-floor appartment blocks | 17:44 |
| qwerty12_N800 | ~seen dannym | 17:45 |
| infobot | dannym <i=d5960157@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7d8b24642712a741> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 18d 6h 39m 20s ago, saying: 'hi'. | 17:45 |
| RST38h | johnx: how big is the rent anyway? | 17:46 |
| aquatix | johnx: that's... claustrophobic | 17:47 |
| johnx | aquatix, you get used to it, or you go gibbering mad. I'll leave you to decide which happaned to me :D | 17:47 |
| aquatix | you got used to be gibbering mad? | 17:48 |
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| lardman | do pdb files have a standard structure? | 17:49 |
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| aquatix | lardman: no | 17:50 |
| aquatix | iirc | 17:51 |
| lardman | so it's just an extension, nothing else | 17:51 |
| lardman | wierd | 17:51 |
| aquatix | wait | 17:51 |
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| aquatix | http://www.nicholson.com/rhn/pilot/pdb.txt | 17:51 |
| lardman | cool, so it is structured, nice | 17:52 |
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| aquatix | i hope that's usable with metro's db's | 17:53 |
| aquatix | lardman: keep me posted, it's interesting :) | 17:53 |
| lardman | I'll write some code this evening and see if I can parse their database | 17:54 |
| lardman | it appears that the strings are stored seperately from the other data | 17:54 |
| lardman | doesn't look too hopeful | 17:54 |
| lardman | http://search.cpan.org/~bdfoy/p5-Palm-1.009/lib/PDB.pm | 17:55 |
| aquatix | hm | 17:56 |
| lardman | http://www.nsbasic.com/palm/info/technotes/TN02a.htm is good for the format, though not sure whether that's the one | 17:57 |
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| aquatix | lardman: looks helpful at least | 17:59 |
| lardman | yeah, but take a look at the db with a hex editor :( | 17:59 |
| lardman | I can't even see a coherent record structure unless it's stored in memo-type fields, with all text data in one record | 17:59 |
| lardman | like every single station name in the same record | 18:00 |
| aquatix | meh | 18:00 |
| aquatix | i think they encrypted it somehow | 18:00 |
| lardman | no, the text is plain | 18:00 |
| lardman | the structure is awkward though | 18:00 |
| aquatix | ah | 18:01 |
| aquatix | good luck :) | 18:01 |
| * aquatix focuses on his thesis for a few minutes | 18:02 | |
| lardman | I'll just fall back to doing the London tube I think | 18:02 |
| rm_you | hrm | 18:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hi, rm_you. :) | 18:03 |
| johnx | hi rm_you :D | 18:04 |
| aquatix | aloha rm_you | 18:04 |
| rm_you | lol | 18:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Wait, that should be s/:)/*eg*/ | 18:04 |
| rm_you | I need to come around more <_< | 18:05 |
| RST38h | moo, rm_you | 18:05 |
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| GeneralAntilles | rm_you, that you do, as I've got a backlog of evil things and it would behoove you to keep me busy so it doesn't grow longer. :P | 18:05 |
| rm_you | lol | 18:06 |
| rm_you | I may have time over thanksgiving break <_< | 18:06 |
| rm_you | cause i'll be in houston with my GF but she | 18:06 |
| rm_you | *she'll be gone for a day or two at her cousin's wedding | 18:06 |
| rm_you | so i'll be sitting around bored | 18:06 |
| rm_you | http://slexy.org/view/s21A7eAfkp | 18:08 |
| rm_you | johnx: so my xmas break will pretty much exactly coincide with yours :) | 18:09 |
| rm_you | 18th-5th | 18:09 |
| rm_you | off by a day | 18:09 |
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| moontiger | does anybody know whats up with the nokia windows flasher app? suddenly telling me that my clock isnt set right on the windows machine and refuses to go any further | 18:27 |
| moontiger | ?? | 18:27 |
| johnx | is your clock set right? | 18:28 |
| moontiger | yes | 18:28 |
| moontiger | a friend just a got a n810 | 18:28 |
| moontiger | and i was helping him flash it to diablo | 18:28 |
| moontiger | but no go | 18:28 |
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| lardman | Windows flasher is something Nokia will need to sort out if they plan to appeal to non-hackers | 18:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ideally people will have to deal with it less with Fremantle | 18:33 |
| lardman | yep | 18:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't know how anybody uses Firefox on PPC | 18:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | It is dog slow for me. | 18:36 |
| Proteous | maybe the pr0n sites you are trying to surf and just busy | 18:42 |
| Proteous | s/and/are/ | 18:43 |
| infobot | Proteous meant: maybe the pr0n sites you are trying to surf are just busy | 18:43 |
| qwerty12 | Yeah, www.proteousxxx.com is going slow for me | 18:43 |
| Proteous | doh, I'll check into that | 18:43 |
| qwerty12 | Thanks, I was missing it | 18:44 |
| Proteous | I didn't take you for a irish amputee on horses kind of guy | 18:45 |
| qwerty12 | Yeah, I needed the most outlandish stuff and only your site provided me with that | 18:45 |
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| moontiger | i'll use the linux flasher | 18:56 |
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| moontiger | :) | 18:56 |
| qwerty12 | Good choice :P | 18:56 |
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| moontiger | and i have the image ... so easy right? | 18:58 |
| lardman | andre___: ping | 18:59 |
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| lcuk | moontiger, chances are your clock ISNT right - daylight savings just changed - did you change clock manually or did you let it adjust itself | 19:00 |
| lardman | why should it care? | 19:01 |
| lcuk | cos then its an hour out | 19:01 |
| lcuk | i dont make the rules, but know software can be "picky" about such things | 19:01 |
| lardman | which is important when going to a wedding, not when flashing a device | 19:01 |
| lardman | imo | 19:01 |
| GAN800 | DST didn't do anything here. | 19:01 |
| lcuk | 100% agree lard | 19:01 |
| lcuk | speaking of which, are you hhaving a linux or a windows wedding? | 19:02 |
| lardman | no idea | 19:02 |
| lardman | ! | 19:02 |
| lcuk | heh | 19:02 |
| lardman | free beer sounds good though | 19:03 |
| lcuk | linux weddings should be the norm - delivery truck brings one of every sort of food and lets the guests make their own | 19:03 |
| lcuk | and beer | 19:03 |
| lcuk | yes, lots of beer | 19:03 |
| nemo | lcuk: open source wedding, maybe. | 19:04 |
| lcuk | i wonder what horrors a microsoft wedding would bring. *shudder* | 19:04 |
| nemo | honeymoon, not so much | 19:04 |
| GAN800 | It's cold today. | 19:04 |
| lcuk | yes nemo, honeymoons must be closed source | 19:04 |
| lcuk | with logging disabled | 19:04 |
| timeless | hello world | 19:04 |
| lcuk | and no irc :P | 19:05 |
| timeless | anyone know where one finds the normal -dbg repos for debian? | 19:05 |
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| moontiger | lcuk ... im on pst and i did an auto time update | 19:06 |
| moontiger | the tablet is set to pst too | 19:06 |
| moontiger | i think its the nokia servers being set back or sometine | 19:07 |
| moontiger | *something | 19:07 |
| lcuk | fair enough moontiger, i just know i've fallen over iwth that in the past - and if it was a simple fix then you couldv carried on | 19:07 |
| moontiger | yeah i hear you ... and i tried all that ... ithink its def a bug in the nokia software | 19:08 |
| moontiger | i havent used the linux flasher but im hoping it wont have the same issues | 19:08 |
| moontiger | ~flash | 19:08 |
| qwerty12 | ~flashing | 19:08 |
| infobot | hmm... flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware | 19:08 |
| moontiger | damn!! | 19:08 |
| moontiger | :) | 19:08 |
| moontiger | thnx :) | 19:08 |
| moontiger | its one of my students who bought a tablet after my recommendation | 19:09 |
| moontiger | so i want to help him get it flashed to diablo | 19:09 |
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| qwerty12 | 2 people said they kept clicking repeatedly at the time message and said that worked :P | 19:09 |
| *** Khertan_n810 has joined #maemo | 19:09 | |
| Khertan_n810 | Hello ! | 19:10 |
| timeless | help? | 19:10 |
| moontiger | flasher3 static? | 19:11 |
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| Khertan_n810 | command not found | 19:11 |
| moontiger | hey Khertan_n810 :) | 19:11 |
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| qwerty12 | moontiger: the normal flasher-3.0 should be ok | 19:11 |
| moontiger | ok thnx qwerty12 | 19:11 |
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| Khertan_n810 | hi moontiger | 19:12 |
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| moontiger | then chmod +x flasher? | 19:12 |
| qwerty12 | yeah | 19:12 |
| moontiger | schweet :) | 19:12 |
| Khertan_n810 | error: (104, 'Connection reset by peer') | 19:13 |
| Khertan_n810 | rahhhhhhhh !!!!!! | 19:13 |
| Khertan_n810 | i ll make a murder !!!! | 19:14 |
| moontiger | heh | 19:14 |
| Khertan_n810 | rah ... and now rer c (french train) is interrupted | 19:14 |
| Khertan_n810 | great | 19:14 |
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| Khertan_n810 | why gdata is so slow ... this really sucks | 19:16 |
| Khertan_n810 | and this with a max_result=1 | 19:16 |
| Khertan_n810 | i can t ask less | 19:16 |
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| Khertan_n810 | google sync will really make me crazy ! | 19:17 |
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| pyhimys | Khertan_n810: well it is _beta_ software after all ;) | 19:19 |
| Khertan_n810 | yeap like everythings on the web | 19:20 |
| lardman | reboot time, cu all later on | 19:20 |
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| Sargun_Screen | hey | 19:29 |
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| ryoohki | well, i just got a wimax n810 and the gps hasn't locked yet even though i left it on for quite a few minutes | 19:31 |
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| ryoohki | anyone had toruble getting the gps to work? | 19:31 |
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| ryoohki | also, is the door supposed to have the corner tab bent | 19:32 |
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| mgedmin | "quite a few" sounds not enough | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | first gps fix takes a really long time (20 minutes or so?) | 19:35 |
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| mgedmin | also, are you outdoors? gps doesn't work well (or, usually, at all) indoors | 19:35 |
| ryoohki | ok | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | I don't know what corner tab you're talking about | 19:35 |
| ryoohki | mgedmin: twenty minutes?! | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | maybe 12 | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | first fix is horrible | 19:36 |
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| melmoth | all cold fix are horrible | 19:36 |
| melmoth | seriously, the gps is a gadjet on the n810 board. A funny gadget, but a gadjet. | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | also, download agps-beta from the tableteer repo | 19:36 |
| |rt| | even my garmin takes a while to lock on if you're in a different location than the last time it was on....especially if you're moving | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | reduces gps fix time if you're online | 19:36 |
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| mgedmin | with it you can get a fix in 15..45 seconds | 19:37 |
| mgedmin | without it you need 60..90 seconds | 19:37 |
| melmoth | 90 seconds is when i m lucky, with or without agps | 19:37 |
| |rt| | I installed agps on my 810...haven't tried anything with the gps yet outside myself | 19:37 |
| melmoth | 10 to 20 mn is more realist | 19:37 |
| ryoohki | mgedmin: on one side( the middle of the back) are three tabs the act as a hinge, on the outside are two tabs that act as a hook to lock the door. the other, third, outer tab is the one i'm speaking about | 19:37 |
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| ryoohki | mgedmin: well i'm used to gps units that lock in less than a minute | 19:38 |
| mgedmin | I see | 19:38 |
| mgedmin | mine is also bent, if that's the right word | 19:38 |
| ryoohki | mgedmin: ok, good, cause mine is also bent at a right angle | 19:39 |
| * Khertan_n810 is tired of gdata ... and will try freecivilization for maemo | 19:39 | |
| Khertan_n810 | bye | 19:39 |
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| melmoth | mon meilleur conseil est: ne cherche pas a optimiser ton site en quoi que ce soit pour le rferencement | 19:40 |
| melmoth | oups | 19:40 |
| qwerty12 | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=237169 lol... | 19:44 |
| melmoth | si j etais toi, je chercherais au moins un mi temps a coté | 19:44 |
| melmoth | oups | 19:44 |
| melmoth | grumble.. grumble. one day i ll get use to irssi split screens | 19:45 |
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| Stskeeps | qwerty12: what was the exact issue of coreutils nuking busybox again? | 19:47 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: dpkg database says busybox provides, replaces, conflicts with coreutils so when you install coreutils, busybox wants to go and a shitload of stuff depends on busybox or a tool that busybox is set to "provide" | 19:48 |
| Stskeeps | okay, so opposite to how debian busybox does it.. i wonder | 19:49 |
| qwerty12 | If busybox is rebuilt with the Conflicts line removed, you may be able to use dpkg-divert | 19:49 |
| moontiger | that flashing was easier than the dumbass windows flasher | 19:49 |
| moontiger | :) | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | or avoid problems altogether | 19:49 |
| Stskeeps | postinst of busybox, busybox --install | 19:50 |
| Stskeeps | it sets up hard links | 19:50 |
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| qwerty12 | That sounds better. Nokia provide them with the package >.< | 19:50 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 19:51 |
| Stskeeps | well, mkfs.jffs2 doesn't do it correctly so | 19:51 |
| * qwerty12 wastes time by rebuilding optimised, latest mpd again | 19:51 | |
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| lardman | re | 19:52 |
| vincenzo88 | re! | 19:52 |
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| lardman | vincenzo88: how's the ip camera app going? | 19:53 |
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| vincenzo88 | I will try to port a Qt program work on Ubuntu to the N810 | 19:53 |
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| lardman | surely the gui is only a minor part of it? | 19:55 |
| Stskeeps | uhm, - port a qt program that works on ubuntu to the n810 maemo? :P | 19:55 |
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| vincenzo88 | Stkkeeps: I will try but ^^ | 19:56 |
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| ryoohki | mgedmin: http://vilunki.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/solution-to-n810-gps-problems/ | 19:59 |
| mouser- | This may seems like an incredibly stupid question, but if people are having trouble with busybox, isn't there a way to install bash as a CLI? If we can watch video on it, certainly it has the power to run it. Is it not ported to ARM or maemoitized? | 20:03 |
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| melmoth | i think bash is available in extras or somewhere already | 20:03 |
| qwerty12 | mouser-: sure, it's in extras. it's a problem with other things that busybox replaces too like ls etc | 20:03 |
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| Stskeeps | mouser-: i kinda wonder about the need for busybox on a tablet, really | 20:05 |
| Stskeeps | bash vs busybox, sure, but the rest? | 20:05 |
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| Stskeeps | i mean, coreutils does take up space obviously.. | 20:07 |
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| mouser- | Stskeeps: If things on a desktop distro go horribly wrong, it generally falls back to a busybox prompt. Does that sort of thing not happen on the tablet if it is severely but not hopelessly broken? | 20:10 |
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| Jaffa | mouser-: not by default, no | 20:18 |
| Jaffa | It reboots a few times, then starts up in a safe mode | 20:18 |
| Jaffa | But still into the desktop environment | 20:18 |
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| Stskeeps | mouser-: initramfs thing | 20:31 |
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| lcuk | theres a snake in my boots! | 20:47 |
| qwerty12_N800 | fry it | 20:47 |
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| lcuk | i cant, its a big motherf | 20:48 |
| summatusmentis | lcuk: a snake in both of your boots? | 20:49 |
| lcuk | i told you, its big (and also a glitch ;) ) i noticed after i posted | 20:50 |
| * lcuk guesses jacob found his pullstring woody | 20:50 | |
| lardman | qwerty12_N800: fried snake, tastes like chicken I imagine | 20:50 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | lardman, now I want to try it :/. anyone willing to ship me a snake via Her Majesty's postal service? | 20:51 |
| lcuk | i could, but it would have to be airmail | 20:52 |
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| Khertan_n810 | Hi again | 20:52 |
| lcuk | hiya khertan | 20:52 |
| Khertan_n810 | freeciv is really slow on n810 | 20:52 |
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| Khertan_n810 | hello lcuk | 20:54 |
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| lardman | qwerty12_N800: probably easier to do that than send party poppers | 20:54 |
| qwerty12_N800 | heh | 20:54 |
| * lardman dislikes all these postal rules, hinders the model rocket making | 20:55 | |
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| lardman | I wonder who to talk to about this new Nokia location api | 20:56 |
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| lcuk | lardman :D im sure you will find someone | 20:59 |
| lardman | yeah, I imagine so :) | 20:59 |
| lcuk | model rocket making :) now theres a hobby with high ambition | 21:00 |
| * lcuk puts his helicopter away | 21:00 | |
| X-Fade | Water bottle rocket? :) | 21:00 |
| lardman | no, solid propellant | 21:00 |
| * Khertan_n810 really hate gdata !!! | 21:00 | |
| X-Fade | Nice! | 21:01 |
| lardman | good fun blowing stuff up :) | 21:01 |
| lardman | not enough summer this year to get started though :( | 21:01 |
| X-Fade | Heh, yeah weather is a pain. | 21:01 |
| lcuk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dX7xeF-ywxc | 21:02 |
| lcuk | ^^^^ watch that lard | 21:02 |
| X-Fade | I fly RC helis, very weather dependent too. | 21:02 |
| lardman | http://people.bath.ac.uk/enpsgp/rockets/rockets.html - I thought I'd try something hard, making an ejector seat :) | 21:02 |
| lcuk | heh - especially taking an indoor one outdoors | 21:02 |
| * lcuk once did that :$ | 21:02 | |
| lardman | lcuk: cool | 21:02 |
| lardman | X-Fade: with rockets?! Please! | 21:03 |
| t_s_o | hmm, a cortex based gumstick... | 21:03 |
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| lardman | supper beckons, bbiab | 21:03 |
| lcuk | internet controlled solid propellant cruise rockets are banned arent they? even if you have a nokia logo on the side | 21:03 |
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| X-Fade | lcuk: Nah, mine weigh 00 and | 21:04 |
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| lardman|food | lcuk: lol, I don't fancy losing any expensive hw, this is pretty cool though: http://members.shaw.ca/sonde/ | 21:04 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: Nah, mine weigh 500 and about 850 gram. But still ;) | 21:05 |
| lcuk | lardman|food, WOW | 21:05 |
| lcuk | and X-Fade you make rockets too? or just helis? | 21:05 |
| X-Fade | Nah, just helis.. | 21:06 |
| X-Fade | Working on my 3d skills. Inverted flight etc. | 21:07 |
| lcuk | i stopped flying mine when i started to get a bit too cocky with it - was an indoor one and after rebuilding a few times sussed how to get around everywhere | 21:07 |
| lcuk | heh, just start your inversion high enough that you can recover | 21:08 |
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| Stskeeps | "Anyone managed to get KDE running on 770?", oh dear god, oh dear god no. | 21:08 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: yeah, I ordered a new one btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkanzKylcRs | 21:09 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: Although this pilot has more skills than me ;) | 21:09 |
| lcuk | awww - i thought it was you in the hat! ;) | 21:10 |
| X-Fade | Heh no ;) | 21:10 |
| lcuk | hes not flying - hes falling with style | 21:10 |
| * lcuk prefers precision to bouncing everywhere | 21:11 | |
| X-Fade | Yes, I'm more into the sport flying. Fast forward flight.. | 21:11 |
| lcuk | boy racer :D | 21:11 |
| lcuk | have you seen the hover boat thingies.. | 21:12 |
| X-Fade | Hmm got to go. bbl. | 21:12 |
| lcuk | k x | 21:12 |
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| lardman|food | lcuk: did you blow X-Fade a kiss as he left? :D | 21:26 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | hehe | 21:26 |
| lcuk | yes lardman x :P | 21:26 |
| lardman | lol | 21:26 |
| lcuk | what it really means is i simply missed the tab key | 21:27 |
| lardman | ah, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt ;) | 21:27 |
| qwerty12_N800 | right.. we believe you ;p | 21:27 |
| BugBlue | oke | 21:29 |
| BugBlue | *this* is f****** annoying | 21:29 |
| BugBlue | Nokia-N810-23-14:~# gps_saver -n -S -s|grep DATA|cut -b 12-200 | 21:29 |
| BugBlue | DATA T=1225222115 M=3 EPT=0.005 LAT=51.910451 LON=5.497239 EPH=28.000 ALT=7.500 EPV=24.000 TRK=203.100 EPD=nan SPD=0.051 EPS=56.000 CLMB=0.000 EPC=nan PTCH=nan ROLL=nan DIP=nan SU=0 S=0 HS= | 21:29 |
| BugBlue | gps_saver -n -S -s|grep DATA|cut -b 13-200 | 21:29 |
| BugBlue | TA T=1225222122 M=3 [..] | 21:29 |
| BugBlue | I increase the cut -b with 1 and it cuts 2 extra | 21:29 |
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| lardman | what happens if you use -c rather than -b ? | 21:30 |
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| BugBlue | that does solve the problem | 21:31 |
| lardman | good good | 21:31 |
| lardman | looks like your byte size is wrong for some reason | 21:31 |
| BugBlue | Nokia-N810-23-14:~# set|grep -i utf | 21:32 |
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| BugBlue | strange... | 21:32 |
| BugBlue | let's take a another N810 tomorrow and test from scratch | 21:32 |
| lardman | I don't imagine it's a silicon problem ;) | 21:32 |
| BugBlue | more about software | 21:34 |
| BugBlue | and I hate to flash my 'work' N810.. that thing I do use | 21:34 |
| lardman | might be a bug in busybox cut? | 21:34 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, i was just about to say | 21:35 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:35 |
| Stskeeps | busybox is evil | 21:35 |
| qwerty12_N800 | s/evil/shit/ | 21:36 |
| lardman | hmm, metromap works pretty well | 21:36 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N800: a second thing i hope to demonstrate with my jffs2 stuff is simply, "we don't need busybox on n8x0 and above" | 21:36 |
| BugBlue | did I mention that it's f**8 annoying? | 21:36 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | Stskeeps, Cool :). I want to see a coreutils build with ls + rm that doesn't segfault :) | 21:38 |
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| BugBlue | should be possible on armel | 21:39 |
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| BugBlue | I've got some recompiled opensuse running om arm routerboard 532 boxes | 21:40 |
| qwerty12_N800 | yeah, i should stop being lazy and compile etch's oone | 21:40 |
| BugBlue | that does work without busybox | 21:40 |
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| suihkulokki | qwerty12_N800: debian/armel most certainly comes with coreutils that doesn't segfault :9 | 21:41 |
| qwerty12_N800 | hehe, be a disaster if it did :p | 21:42 |
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| * Stskeeps wonders why mojo went with "arm" of all things for arch name | 21:44 | |
| BugBlue | maybe because it's a Acorn RISC Machine | 21:44 |
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| RST38h | moo again | 21:53 |
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| Stskeeps | qwerty12_: does 2.6.27 g_ether work with xp if you happen to knwo? | 21:55 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | Stskeeps, according to zap, who put a lot of time into this issue, the problem is in 2.6.21's musb, not the g_ether | 21:59 |
| zap | +1 | 21:59 |
| zap | the difference between g_ether in 2.6.18 (which worked) and 2.6.21 (which doesn't) is very small if I remember correctly | 22:00 |
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| RST38h | hey, has frong been committed to extras with the source code? =) | 22:12 |
| RST38h | s/frong/fring/ | 22:12 |
| infobot | RST38h meant: hey, has fring been committed to extras with the source code? =) | 22:12 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N800: alright | 22:13 |
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| Bilaw | Hello all! | 22:40 |
| * lcuk never thought he had an opinion on upgrading till today | 22:40 | |
| lcuk | hiya bilaw | 22:40 |
| Bilaw | For some reason I can't reflash my tablet! | 22:40 |
| Bilaw | (hello lcuk!) | 22:40 |
| Bilaw | the Terminal states: sudo: ./flasher-3.0: command not found | 22:41 |
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| lcuk | i dunno the linux way :$ (im so ashamed to say that) | 22:42 |
| melmoth | Is ./flasher-3.0 readable and executable ? | 22:42 |
| Bilaw | (I am in the correct directory... And I tried this, too: "sudo: ./flasher-3.0.amd64: command not found") | 22:42 |
| Bilaw | -- nevermind that, lcuk! Remember this talk we had yesterday? | 22:42 |
| macoute | Bilaw: you really do have that file | 22:43 |
| Bilaw | Well I tried and install Deblet AND update some new maemo thing: my tablet won't turn on, now!! | 22:43 |
| macoute | ls flasher-3.0 | 22:43 |
| lcuk | heh bilaw :) no i have a very poor memory | 22:43 |
| macoute | Bilaw: did you do that? | 22:43 |
| Bilaw | -- macoute: I'm checking this! | 22:44 |
| macoute | and have you tried chmod +x flasher-3.0 | 22:44 |
| Bilaw | Aaaaah! Thats the one I missed! Thank you macoute!! | 22:44 |
| macoute | Bilaw: np :) | 22:45 |
| vincenzo88 | Goodbye all ;=) | 22:46 |
| Bilaw | Hang on: sudo ./flasher-3.0.amd64 -F <RX-44_DIABLO_4.2008.23-14_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin> -f -R | 22:46 |
| Bilaw | ==> "-R : no suche file or directory" | 22:46 |
| Bilaw | *such | 22:46 |
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| macoute | why < and >? | 22:46 |
| macoute | did you actually wrote them? | 22:46 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Bilaw, swap the -F and the -f | 22:46 |
| macoute | ah, but qwerty12_N800 is right | 22:47 |
| macoute | the error message states that its trying to use file "-R" | 22:47 |
| Bilaw | OK, I'll drop the < and >! (But I copied it from the maemo wiki!!) | 22:47 |
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| macoute | so -f must be for "file" | 22:47 |
| qwerty12_N800 | -f means to flash, -F means a fiasco image and the bin goes after the -F | 22:48 |
| Bilaw | (apparently it was enough w/out the >< | 22:48 |
| Bilaw | ... I'll keep you posted of any further development! | 22:48 |
| Bilaw | but many thanks for the help! | 22:48 |
| macoute | qwerty12_N800: but apparently the order of flags is not relevant | 22:49 |
| qwerty12_N800 | macoute, yeah, my bad | 22:49 |
| lardman | well the filename has to come immediately after the -F, but other than that no | 22:49 |
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| Bilaw | (bother not about this, brothers, it has flashed... Now of course I need to check what the Deblet attempt did...) | 22:50 |
| * qwerty12_N800 runs -R in a separate flasher process. i noticed flasher jumped the gun with rebooting when i flashed one of my initfs images | 22:51 | |
| Bilaw | I'll try and remember that, qwerty12_N800, but hopefully I wont have to reflash too often! | 22:52 |
| Bilaw | (wait, qwerty12_N800: isnt -R standing for "recursive"?) | 22:52 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Bilaw, reboot | 22:53 |
| qwerty12_N800 | I want to see an N8*0 flashing another N8*0 via usb host and a 0xffff compile :p | 22:54 |
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| Bilaw | (Diantre! Still more to learn 'bout Linux, huh?) | 22:54 |
| Bilaw | what's 0xfff, qwerty12_N800? | 22:54 |
| melmoth | an open source flasher i think | 22:55 |
| lardman | Bilaw: fyi http://maemo.org/community/wiki/Flasher_tool_usage/#3247d5daab42cafaa048402c23cb00c8 | 22:55 |
| gomiam | 0xfff=4091, right? | 22:55 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Bilaw, an open source flasher, i stick to using flasher-3.0 on the computer though | 22:55 |
| Bilaw | // Alright, people, and NOW another attempt at installing Deblet! Let's completely crash the Tablet AGAIN! | 22:57 |
| qwerty12_N800 | hmm, what's the easiest way to make bash move all files from subfolders into one folder? | 22:58 |
| Bilaw | Scott Grannemann's "Linux"? | 22:58 |
| Bilaw | regex? | 22:58 |
| macoute | mv -r? | 22:58 |
| macoute | qwerty12_N800: mv -R? | 22:58 |
| macoute | mv -R foobar foo moves foobar and its subfolders to foo | 22:59 |
| Bilaw | Are you serious, qwerty12_N800? Would you really like me to look it up in my book? | 22:59 |
| qwerty12_N800 | my bad,i mean all files from each folder into one without the original folders | 22:59 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Bilaw, Nah, thank you but I'll figure it out :) | 23:00 |
| Bilaw | Shouldn't it include some -p, too, and several *s? | 23:01 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | just found i don't need to do it, wget has a no directories option :) | 23:04 |
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| Bilaw | wget has an effing number of incroyables options! | 23:11 |
| aquatix | wget is the shizzle | 23:11 |
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| lbt | qwerty12_N800: find . -print0 | xargs -0 mv \{} . | 23:16 |
| lbt | ish | 23:16 |
| lbt | mm - probably a --type f too | 23:16 |
| Bilaw | Alrigh, I'm off, people, thanks for your help, all! | 23:17 |
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| lbt | I got gpe-calendar sync'ing with egroupware. But now it segfaults. I'm sad. | 23:18 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lbt, Thanks! I'm always forgetting xargs :) | 23:18 |
| lbt | :) | 23:18 |
| lcuk | :( lbt | 23:18 |
| lbt | hello | 23:19 |
| lcuk | hi there | 23:19 |
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| lbt | it's been *weeks* since I've done any nit stuff... | 23:19 |
| lcuk | yeah, feels the same for me | 23:20 |
| lbt | how's liqbase going? I've had irc on and seen comments - sounds like it's moving along :) | 23:20 |
| lcuk | or rather stuff i want to do | 23:20 |
| lcuk | yeah, theres a real proper package and its in extras now and properly installable and stuff :D | 23:21 |
| lbt | oooh | 23:21 |
| lbt | ... | 23:21 |
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| lcuk | i finally got over my headfunk and actually got it saving images | 23:21 |
| lcuk | so now theres a usable camera app included :) | 23:22 |
| lbt | eek - my nit won't run application manager... | 23:22 |
| lcuk | thats not a good thing | 23:23 |
| MangoFusion | liqbase is in extras? | 23:23 |
| lcuk | yes | 23:23 |
| qwerty12_N800 | apt-get ftw *grin* | 23:23 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/ info here, and the video of my berlin presentation | 23:23 |
| lbt | open (30 Read-only file system) | 23:23 |
| lcuk | reboot? reflash? | 23:24 |
| lbt | reboot | 23:24 |
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| lcuk | fair enough, yeah - it went down a treat in berlin | 23:24 |
| lcuk | came away with more things i need to try though than when i went (always the same) | 23:24 |
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| lcuk | and i had a push and ironed out all the things in a testing period and moved myself away from my little dev folder home and properly into garage :) | 23:26 |
| macoute | lcuk: i actually demoed your program in nokia flagship store, too :) | 23:26 |
| lcuk | \o/ nice | 23:26 |
| lcuk | i hope to as well one day :P | 23:27 |
| moontiger | lcuk, camera stuff using gstreamer? | 23:27 |
| lcuk | yeah | 23:27 |
| macoute | but they are mostly just salespersonnel, but i told them to tell nokia that this is what we need :P | 23:27 |
| moontiger | :) | 23:27 |
| lbt | EEEEEK Buffer I/O error on device mmcblk0p2, logical block 227367 http://pastebin.com/m713b6221 | 23:27 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lcuk, you will be known all over Suomi :p | 23:27 |
| lcuk | yes :) | 23:28 |
| lcuk | i entered the "callingallinnovators" competition :$ | 23:28 |
| qwerty12_N800 | :) | 23:28 |
| lcuk | how the hell did i actually know what you meant then qwerty, and more importantly how did you know what it meant | 23:29 |
| macoute | in "suomi"? :) | 23:29 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lcuk, 1. No idea, 2. i like to know facts like that for some reason :) | 23:30 |
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| lcuk | heh | 23:31 |
| lcuk | just wait till you are old and then you realise random facts just push out the good stuff :P | 23:31 |
| lcuk | yes macoute | 23:31 |
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| macoute | but I knew that too? :D | 23:31 |
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| lcuk | heh :D the embedded video actually works | 23:32 |
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| gregorovius | lcuk: are you doing video in liqbase? | 23:36 |
| lcuk | no gregorovius, i havent tried yet - looking more closely at animation that video | 23:37 |
| lcuk | than ^ | 23:37 |
| gregorovius | ah, I misunderstood | 23:37 |
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| lcuk | the camera is just a sideshoot really, just another way to get data into the system and also to identify users | 23:38 |
| * Jaffa ponders. Another Frasier, or bed & read | 23:39 | |
| Jaffa | Bed. | 23:39 |
| lcuk | what you reading at the mo jaffa? | 23:40 |
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| Jaffa | Kate Mosse's _Sepulchre_ (but spelt right) | 23:40 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: Read _Labyrinth_ whilst on holiday in the place where it was set, in the same summer it was set. Also decided to read a Dan Brown book to see if it lived up to the hype. That only further emphasised the quality of the other book ;-) | 23:41 |
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| lcuk | jaffa spelling it right, sounds cool | 23:42 |
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| lcuk | heh | 23:42 |
| lcuk | there is something timeless in a book which computers and lots of other modern mediums lack | 23:43 |
| Jaffa | This is structured very similarly to _Labyrinth_ and you can sort of see where it'll be going if you read the other; but it's well written and compelling, so still fun | 23:43 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: indeed. | 23:43 |
| melmoth | best thing with book is the battery life expectancy | 23:44 |
| lcuk | i sent my book back to amazon the other day - i couldnt see it to read in bed, and no matter what i did i couldnt brighten it up without also destroying the pages i was trying to read | 23:45 |
| Jaffa | heh | 23:45 |
| lcuk | i would get halfway down and the smouldering would catch up | 23:45 |
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| * Jaffa offs. g'night | 23:45 | |
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| lcuk | lol gnite | 23:45 |
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| lbt | hey lcuk - very nice :) | 23:47 |
| lcuk | lbt, it best be, ive tried to build something similar for years now. the best thing is this is just the start | 23:48 |
| lcuk | this really has been the first time ive put enough pieces together to know in myself that im on the right path | 23:48 |
| lbt | Well, I'm seriously impressed :) | 23:48 |
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| lcuk | heh lbt, next year i get to do it all again, but hopefully without any hacks | 23:49 |
| lbt | It would be interesting to see what you could expose as a gfx library/toolkit | 23:49 |
| lcuk | yes absolutely | 23:49 |
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| lcuk | that part was key to open sourcing it, even if i cannot manage to do it - its proven that it can be done in a specific case | 23:50 |
| lcuk | someone will come along with enough will and desire to try themselves :) | 23:50 |
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| qwerty12_N80O | lbt, thinking about that, did you ever use directfb in initfs successfully? | 23:51 |
| lcuk | and anyway lbt, it already is a library - i just havent broken it into pieces yet | 23:51 |
| lbt | qwerty12_N80O: no, work jumped up and bit me. I was building tslib | 23:52 |
| qwerty12_N80O | ah, ok :) | 23:52 |
| lcuk | lbt, tslib for our devices, or in work? | 23:52 |
| lbt | in uclib for the initial boot | 23:53 |
| qwerty12_N80O | i built mtd-tools for initfs and that's it :p | 23:53 |
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| lbt | so we could have a touch based multiboot | 23:53 |
| lbt | or liqOS ? | 23:53 |
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| whodat | how do i get automake installed on the n810? | 23:57 |
| whodat | apt-get install automake1.9, and get: "Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have requested..." | 23:57 |
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