IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2008-05-20

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hrw	halley: and as freetype is part of system image you cannot update it ;(	00:02
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halley	hrw, ick, okay... thanks for letting me know why it's so old.	00:29
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halley	hrw, have to code an inner loop that lets me render u'text with spaces' then. :P	00:29
halley	Apparently r'text with spaces' works fine. Just u'text with spaces' hits it.	00:30
hrw	https://wiki.maemo.org/index.php/Installation - experienced Maemo people needed for review	00:32
hrw	I will later add other systems so it will be split a bit	00:32
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halley	Was going to say, OSX and Win are a bit different.	00:33
hrw	but some parts are same - first ones	00:34
GeneralAntilles	hrw, http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Flashing_OS2008_With_Mac_OS_X_%28Console%29 might be useful for OS X.	00:34
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RST38h	Does anyone know if setitimer(ITIMER_REAL,..) works on OS2008?	00:35
hrw	GeneralAntilles: feel free to add	00:35
GeneralAntilles	Setting up the HAVA right now. :P	00:35
acydlord	ugh, so my roomates didnt pay their portion of the cable/internet bill and it got shut off	00:35
acydlord	now i'm using my cell as a modem and wow it is slow	00:35
hrw	can someone with garage account try to login into wiki?	00:37
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acydlord	my garage login works fine	00:46
hrw	thx	00:46
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\|penguinbait\|	anyone in here running a 800 or 810 with 51-3 firmware, using USB host support??	01:18
johnx	yes	01:19
practisevoodoo	any got claws mail working with gmail?	01:19
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* johnx hasn't		01:19
\|penguinbait\|	I have a 800 and 810 neither will go into host mode	01:19
johnx	but then again, I've never tried claws	01:19
\|penguinbait\|	I have a 810 at 42-19 and it works fine	01:19
johnx	\|penguinbait\|, interesting. I know a lot of other people are using usb host on 51-3	01:20
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GeneralAntilles	It's not the firmware	01:20
GeneralAntilles	Mine goes into host just fine on 51-3 (or 50-2)	01:20
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\|penguinbait\|	maybe boot from SD issue, I should try from flash	01:21
\|penguinbait\|	GA are you runing from flash?	01:21
GeneralAntilles	At the moment, no, but I WAS	01:21
balrog-kun	how do you stop maemo from filling the card with core dumps again?	01:22
\|penguinbait\|	800 or 810 GA	01:22
GeneralAntilles	800	01:22
GeneralAntilles	balrog-kun, delete the directory.	01:22
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balrog-kun	GeneralAntilles: oh. thanks	01:23
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\|penguinbait\|	It works if I am booting from flash on my 810, WTF?	01:26
johnx	\|penguinbait\|, that's even weirder	01:27
\|penguinbait\|	???	01:28
\|penguinbait\|	testing 800 now	01:28
johnx	well, it works for me in debian just fine	01:28
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johnx	all the usb stuff is compiled into the kernel, so it shouldn't matter where you boot from	01:28
practisevoodoo	come on ppl, claws mail with gmail? anyone?	01:28
johnx	anyways, does dmesg say anything interesting right after you do echo host > /sys/..../mode	01:28
GeneralAntilles	practisevoodoo, just use Modest?	01:29
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practisevoodoo	not heard of that one	01:30
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\|penguinbait\|	whynot use the webmail, it seems like the easiest solution?	01:30
GeneralAntilles	http://modest.garage.maemo.org/	01:30
johnx	modest rocks :)	01:30
practisevoodoo	'cause i would like to have the messages download automatically while i have internet for easy reading when i dont	01:31
\|penguinbait\|	and the n800 works from flash too???	01:31
johnx	\|penguinbait\|, yes. it has. both keyboard and usb-stick	01:31
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johnx	I'm on the diablo kernel right now though	01:32
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GeneralAntilles	anybody thought about an enhancement request for SSU and custom kernel/initfs yet?	01:33
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johnx	GeneralAntilles, I'm not sure if it's worth it	01:33
\|penguinbait\|	yes john	01:34
johnx	just replace flash-and-reboot with a a script that does "exec true"	01:34
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GeneralAntilles	That's no fun. :P	01:34
GeneralAntilles	I wonder how much of the ssu stuff will be open.	01:35
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\|penguinbait\|	can anyone confirm, (besides debian) that usb host mode is working on 51-3 firmware, when booting from SD?	01:48
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\|penguinbait\|	WTF, now they are both working	01:54
\|penguinbait\|	$%#@%^&%	01:55
KotCzarny	:)	01:55
GeneralAntilles	PEBKAC :P	01:56
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jsidhu2	im not good with c/or gtk, and would like to develop a appliaction that i can run via a browser.. but I wont have network or internet connectivity, so it needs to run localy. Maybe with apache + php.. so before i go and buy this tablet, can you guys tell me if I can run apache + php on these tablets? will the 770 do this? or do i need the newer 810? what alternatives should i look at? I dont want to develop in c/gtk, dev time is too long for me to	01:59
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KotCzarny	maybe pygtk then?	01:59
jsidhu2	KotCzarny: ive never done anything with python either..	02:00
KotCzarny	hmm	02:00
KotCzarny	i think there is apache and php for maemo, though i don't know anything about 770	02:00
jsidhu2	do you have a link to the apache/php project for maemo?	02:01
KotCzarny	nope, but i believe google will return a link :)	02:01
GeneralAntilles	jsidhu2, there's a magic bullet for everything maemo related. Google: "<thing you're looking for> maemo"	02:01
jsidhu2	yes, been looking, havnt found it with that magic bullet yet	02:01
jsidhu2	but my maghic bullet was n770	02:02
jsidhu2	let me try maemo	02:02
GeneralAntilles	That's not a magic bullet.	02:02
GeneralAntilles	There's no such thing as an "n770". ;)	02:02
KotCzarny	well, you would be better of using os200[678]	02:02
KotCzarny	instead of n770	02:02
KotCzarny	also, 770 has no n before number	02:02
jsidhu2	ok	02:03
KotCzarny	on a 770 memory can be a problem a little	02:03
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jsidhu2	im not commited to a tablet yet.. but it would be nice to use the 770.. i already own one but havnt used in a few months	02:04
KotCzarny	so you can test it yourself, good	02:04
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KotCzarny	:)	02:04
jsidhu2	yeah but i havnt found anything that indicates that apache/php runs well on these tablets, so i decided to ask the users of #maemo	02:05
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jsidhu2	..maybe ive been looking for the wrong keyword	02:05
KotCzarny	you would be running browser + php, that could be a little heavy memory wise for 770	02:06
GeneralAntilles	http://maemo.org/downloads/product/apache/	02:06
GeneralAntilles	First result for 'apache maemo' . . .	02:06
jsidhu2	KotCzarny: how about the newer tablets? 800 or 810?	02:06
jsidhu2	GeneralAntilles: needs php	02:06
KotCzarny	a little better i think	02:06
Navi	Apache is too heavy to use well on the NITs :\|	02:06
KotCzarny	because it has 128mb of mem	02:06
KotCzarny	navi: not true	02:06
KotCzarny	apache itself isn't heavy	02:06
KotCzarny	:)	02:07
AStorm	I wonder if maemo-generated public keys are vulnerable to that Debian OpenSSL bug	02:07
jsidhu2	so what do you guys think... should i rethink my route?	02:07
GeneralAntilles	I would.	02:07
GeneralAntilles	It's not a very good route	02:07
KotCzarny	jsidhu2: just try it	02:07
jsidhu2	GeneralAntilles: what would you recommend?	02:07
KotCzarny	all you have to do is to install 2 packages	02:07
GeneralAntilles	sacrificing a lot to maybe save a little time programming side	02:07
GeneralAntilles	Python	02:07
KotCzarny	:)	02:07
jsidhu2	KotCzarny: yeah, i'll look	02:07
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jsidhu2	GeneralAntilles: pyGTK?	02:07
KotCzarny	then you will see if it's fast enough for you	02:07
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GeneralAntilles	Khertan has a nice little on-device programming suite for Python, even. http://www.khertan.net/	02:08
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jsidhu2	yeah but if i have to spend the time to learn py, might as well get started with gtk	02:09
jsidhu2	i thought i might be able to get away with php and a local server	02:09
KotCzarny	jsidhu2: just try it then	02:09
jsidhu2	so anyways, i still dont see any php packages	02:10
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KotCzarny	jsidhu2: google for: php <your os version>	02:10
jsidhu2	ok, will do	02:10
jsidhu2	thanks fellas	02:10
GeneralAntilles	Maybe try Vala, jsidhu2.	02:10
jsidhu2	vala?	02:11
KotCzarny	jsidhu2: for a lighter browser try links2	02:11
AStorm	KotCzarny: is maemo vulnerable to Debian OpenSSL debackle?	02:11
KotCzarny	astorm: i don't know	02:11
GeneralAntilles	http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2007/09/02/vala-high-level-programming-with-less-fat	02:11
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KotCzarny	astorm: any test script?	02:11
AStorm	simple	02:11
AStorm	generate a key and check if it's on the blacklist	02:12
AStorm	http://www.metasploit.com/users/hdm/tools/debian-openssl/	02:12
GeneralAntilles	http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/36896?page=last	02:12
jsidhu2	GeneralAntilles: looks good, thanks man	02:12
jsidhu2	ahaha	02:13
jsidhu2	"turns out distro is actually just windows vista with a few custom themes"	02:13
AStorm	Nah, just some stupid developers who shouldn't ever touch any security-related code.	02:14
AStorm	they can't read it	02:14
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AStorm	Fortunately, all my keys were generated on Gentoo and none on any Debian derivative.	02:16
KotCzarny	i think slackware isn't a debian derivative too	02:16
KotCzarny	:>	02:16
AStorm	yes, it isn't	02:16
AStorm	and it doesn't have the bug	02:16
jsidhu2	hey, nginx/php might work	02:17
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KotCzarny	hrm	02:21
KotCzarny	it says pass, but i need some debian host to test if the script works	02:21
AStorm	first, check the version of OpenSSL	02:22
AStorm	if it's <0.9.8, you're 99,9% safe	02:22
KotCzarny	libssl.so.0.9.7	02:23
KotCzarny	on n800	02:23
KotCzarny	heh	02:23
KotCzarny	ok	02:23
KotCzarny	scipt works	02:23
KotCzarny	i have tested on my unis server	02:23
KotCzarny	;)	02:23
KotCzarny	TEST_RESULT_RSA: fail	02:23
KotCzarny	TEST_RESULT_DSA: fail	02:23
AStorm	which has broken OpenSSL? :P	02:24
KotCzarny	and pass for n800/slackware	02:24
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AStorm	whee	02:24
AStorm	a pity the bug isn't in FreeBSD	02:24
KotCzarny	Nokia-N800-51-3:/usr/lib# ssh -v	02:24
KotCzarny	OpenSSH_4.7p1 Debian-2.maemo2, OpenSSL 0.9.7e 25 Oct 2004	02:24
AStorm	would love a root on our main boxes	02:24
KotCzarny	[root@x32 19:23:22 /tmp/debian_ssh_scan_v4]# ssh -v	02:24
KotCzarny	OpenSSH_4.7p1, OpenSSL 0.9.8g 19 Oct 2007	02:24
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KotCzarny	and: OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9 on that debian box	02:25
AStorm	:>	02:25
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KotCzarny	do you want me to test some ip?	02:27
KotCzarny	:)	02:27
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lopz	hola	02:54
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rm_you	time to set up scratchbox2. everything is basically switched over to that now, right?	03:19
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KotCzarny	not me	03:19
KotCzarny	:)	03:19
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rm_you	lol	03:19
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rm_you	if I follow the guides on http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_4_chinook_sdk.html	03:25
rm_you	is that going to get me Scratchbox 1 or 2?	03:25
KotCzarny	probably 1	03:25
KotCzarny	:)	03:25
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KotCzarny	unless it was updated since i used it	03:26
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NullM0dem	Anyone know of a tutorial to install the mameo-SDK on centOS or RHEL? i tried manual install and its giving me pains	03:29
KotCzarny	nm: i used the intructions rm pasted	03:29
KotCzarny	and it worked on slackware	03:29
KotCzarny	i used automatic script to install it though	03:29
KotCzarny	:)	03:29
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NullM0dem	Im on Centos 5 at work, i tried the manual install but cannot run the maemo-sdk.xxx.sh install script	03:30
KotCzarny	what's the error?	03:31
NullM0dem	unable to open /dev/null	03:32
KotCzarny	lol	03:32
KotCzarny	lame	03:32
KotCzarny	:)	03:32
KotCzarny	bug the admin	03:32
NullM0dem	lame as in im a noob or...	03:32
KotCzarny	do you have root on that machine?	03:32
NullM0dem	yeah but the admin has sudo not sure of the changes he made	03:33
KotCzarny	you need to chmod +rw /dev/{null,zero}	03:33
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rm_you	lol thats ridiculous	03:34
KotCzarny	yeah	03:34
rm_you	you could just edit the script to not redirect to /dev/null	03:34
KotCzarny	i have spotted that braindamageness on freebsd too	03:34
rm_you	you'd get a lot of extra crap on the screen, but it would work fine	03:34
KotCzarny	rm, proper fix is to fix the evice node	03:34
KotCzarny	:)	03:34
NullM0dem	I re ran the script and the actual error is: Scratchbox user's /dev is not properly set up. Couldn't read /dev/null	03:34
rm_you	yeah, but he only needs to run it once and probably just wants it to work :P	03:34
NullM0dem	would that fix work as well for that	03:34
KotCzarny	rm, but it will break other things too	03:35
KotCzarny	nm: probably	03:35
rm_you	does anything else in there RELY on /dev/null that much?	03:35
KotCzarny	assuming there is no other b0rkenness	03:35
rm_you	i agree, it's important to get that fixed	03:35
rm_you	but	03:35
rm_you	bah, that still makes no sense	03:35
KotCzarny	rm: fix is a one liner	03:35
KotCzarny	so no buts	03:35
KotCzarny	:)	03:35
rm_you	does RHEL use a different /dev structure?!	03:35
rm_you	yeah, a oneliner that requires root access >_>	03:35
KotCzarny	no, probably some braindamaged app removed /dev/null and created it with wrong permissions	03:36
rm_you	though a large portion of the setup requires root already, i guess	03:36
rm_you	meh	03:36
NullM0dem	possibly vmware	03:36
KotCzarny	rm: disabling vdso needs root too :)	03:36
rm_you	heh	03:36
rm_you	>_>	03:36
rm_you	i hate redhat and centos >_>	03:37
rm_you	tried to use centOS a few times and it always just aggrivated me	03:37
rm_you	i'll stick with gentoo or debian based systems I think	03:37
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rm_you	or arch... arch seemed nice	03:37
KotCzarny	slackware :)	03:37
rm_you	never tried it :P	03:37
rm_you	maybe i will	03:37
rm_you	fedora pissed me off too	03:38
NullM0dem	I love slack	03:38
rm_you	most RPM distros just piss me off	03:38
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KotCzarny	it's fun if you like it to be simple	03:38
rm_you	:P	03:38
rm_you	does it have any kind of package management?	03:38
KotCzarny	yes	03:38
rm_you	everything i saw is always like... "for slackware, just use this tar.gz"	03:38
NullM0dem	my main os is slack, i use cent at work to be a sheepie	03:38
rm_you	so i always kind of stayed away from me	03:38
rm_you	*from it	03:38
KotCzarny	rm: .tgz != .tar.gz	03:38
KotCzarny	:)	03:38
rm_you	isn't it?	03:39
rm_you	i use the same commands to open em	03:39
KotCzarny	it's like saying that .deb is ar x	03:39
rm_you	thought it was just an abbreviation	03:39
KotCzarny	it uses tar and gzip for packages, but also adds meta files to them	03:39
rm_you	so... i should probably stop calling my random tar.gz files .tgz :P	03:39
KotCzarny	yup	03:39
KotCzarny	:)	03:39
rm_you	lol	03:39
KotCzarny	if you want to build packages for it i can share my scripts	03:40
rm_you	i learned it as just an abbreviation about 7 years ago	03:40
rm_you	and just kept using it that way	03:40
KotCzarny	i usually use mconf, mmake and mpkg	03:40
rm_you	i'll try it out in a bit	03:40
rm_you	does it have a liveCD?	03:40
KotCzarny	probably	03:40
rm_you	is there a slackware based Live distro?	03:40
rm_you	hrm	03:41
KotCzarny	there was thing called zipslack that was ~100mb	03:41
KotCzarny	though i don't know if they do it anymore	03:41
rm_you	what's the slackware mascot? :P	03:42
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rm_you	which one used to have the guy with a pipe?	03:42
rm_you	wasn't that slackware?	03:42
KotCzarny	well, i think mascott would be tux with a pipe	03:42
KotCzarny	:)	03:42
KotCzarny	i don't care about it though :)	03:43
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KotCzarny	i don't like penguins too :)	03:43
NullM0dem	rm_you: there are alot of slackware based distros	03:44
\|penguinbait\|	WHAT!!!!!!!!!1	03:44
NullM0dem	ermm... slackware based live cd's	03:44
\|penguinbait\|	penguins rule!!!!!!!!!	03:44
KotCzarny	penguinbait: i'm a cat	03:44
KotCzarny	:)	03:44
KotCzarny	well, i'm me	03:44
KotCzarny	:)	03:44
NullM0dem	penguins pwn catz	03:44
\|penguinbait\|	do cats eat penguins?	03:44
KotCzarny	don't know	03:45
KotCzarny	i like pancakes	03:45
KotCzarny	:)	03:45
KotCzarny	darn. i lost my op_H patch	03:45
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NullM0dem	rm_you: the guy with the pipe is bob dobbs from the church of the subgenius	03:46
rm_you	ah	03:46
rm_you	yeah	03:46
\|penguinbait\|	I got a pipe, but I prefer my volcano	03:46
NullM0dem	slax is a slackbased live cd, as well as backtrack	03:47
KotCzarny	maemo logs should be split by hour	03:47
KotCzarny	otherwise google isn't helpful	03:47
KotCzarny	:/	03:47
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NullM0dem	\|penguinbait\|: volcano??	03:47
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rm_you	i wonder why i associate subgenius with slackware >_<	03:48
NullM0dem	ummm.... slack	03:48
rm_you	lol	03:48
\|penguinbait\|	http://www.thevolcanovaporizer.com/	03:48
NullM0dem	heh, it's all based aorund slacking	03:48
NullM0dem	haha: should know not too click random links at work....	03:49
KotCzarny	hah, found it. for future reference: op_0 op_1 patch http://en.pastebin.ca/raw/986472	03:49
KotCzarny	maybe this way i won't lose it again	03:50
KotCzarny	:)	03:50
NullM0dem	\|penguinbait\|:In vermont on the farm we used the milking system and piled into the milk tank	03:50
\|penguinbait\|	that seems really large?	03:51
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\|penguinbait\|	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=183466&postcount=15	03:53
\|penguinbait\|	there is a good link to have some fun with	03:53
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\|penguinbait\|	no takers? the bounty is up to 35$ :)	04:02
KotCzarny	?	04:03
\|penguinbait\|	BOUNTY for running Microb in KDE	04:03
\|penguinbait\|	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=183466&postcount=15	04:03
KotCzarny	:)	04:04
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\|penguinbait\|	I got a n800 with ssh and vnc waiting for you to play :)	04:04
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KotCzarny	i have my own n800	04:04
KotCzarny	:)	04:04
\|penguinbait\|	people asked, so I figured why not	04:04
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\|penguinbait\|	hack away :)	04:05
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KotCzarny	for future reference: fbconsole http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=167960	04:26
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term-sig		04:43
KotCzarny		04:44
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\|penguinbait\|	oooooh Console :) thats sweet	05:00
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KotCzarny	mmm	05:20
* KotCzarny hacked fanoush initfs to be white-on-black		05:20
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rm_you	lol	05:28
KotCzarny	:)	05:28
rm_you	i'm failing at downloading slackware	05:28
KotCzarny	lol	05:28
KotCzarny	:)	05:28
rm_you	i can't find the ISO	05:28
KotCzarny	use bittorent	05:28
rm_you	in this maze of directories on their mirrors	05:28
KotCzarny	or use google	05:28
KotCzarny	:)	05:28
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rm_you	<_<	05:29
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rm_you	ah got it	05:32
NullM0dem	slack 12.1?	05:32
rm_you	yeah	05:32
NullM0dem	nice	05:32
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rm_you	it's weird tho...	05:44
rm_you	cause I just did my Hardy Heron launch party last month <_<	05:44
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rm_you	http://www.splitbrain.org/projects/dokuwiki	05:47
rm_you	is that .tgz actually a slackware package?!	05:47
rm_you	or did they mislabel too	05:47
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KotCzarny	many people misuse .tgz	05:47
KotCzarny	:)	05:47
rm_you	lol	05:47
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NullM0dem	rm_you: hardy heron launch?	06:09
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beford	hey, I'm trying to install a package manually from terminal on n810	06:11
beford	its asking me for a password, what should I use?	06:11
beford	i'm actually running 'sudo dpkg --install xx.deb'	06:12
Navi	install easyroot/becomeroot	06:12
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KotCzarny	http://mrrau.dyndns.org:23280/bootmenu/bootmenu-kc-colors.jpg	06:14
KotCzarny	behold!	06:14
KotCzarny	:)	06:14
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KotCzarny	ahm, sorry, wrong link	06:32
KotCzarny	http://mrrau.dyndns.org:23280/n800/bootmenu/bootmenu-kc-colors.jpg	06:32
KotCzarny	:)	06:32
timely	AStorm / KotCzarny: fwiw, diablo 4.1 pre is vulnerable to the openssl thing :)	06:36
* KotCzarny is still on 4.0		06:36
KotCzarny	:)	06:36
Navi	eh	06:39
timely	just in case people ask	06:40
KotCzarny	timely: btw. have you tested it?	06:40
timely	although from what i understand that's just openssl	06:40
timely	KotCzarny: no, i filed a blocker bug against the system	06:41
timely	i had the sources	06:41
KotCzarny	:)	06:41
timely	i'm not actually sure what it means for maemo though	06:41
* KotCzarny is hacking linuxrc		06:41
timely	afaict the openssh package links against 097	06:41
timely	which means it shouldn't be any more vulnerable than any other normal ssh package	06:41
timely	and gecko uses nss for crypto	06:42
timely	it probably means that anyone stupid enough to install a debian openssh package onto the maemo 4.1 leaked system would be in trouble	06:42
KotCzarny	i think main impact is on keys generated with broken openssl	06:42
timely	actually...	06:42
timely	don't think that :)	06:42
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timely	or don't think it the way you think you should think it	06:43
timely	what is a key?	06:43
timely	a certificate used for web servers is a key	06:43
timely	a one time key for a crypto channel is still a key	06:43
KotCzarny	from what i have read keys generated on broken debian and used somewhere else are vulnearable	06:43
timely	correct	06:43
Navi	johnx, I hate you	06:43
timely	basically there are 3 or 4 major things that are vulnerable	06:44
KotCzarny	same goes with keys generated and used after upgrading openssl	06:44
timely	web server certificates are among them	06:44
timely	so are session keys, which probably includes someone logging session traffic	06:44
KotCzarny	:)	06:44
timely	however, in maemo 4.1 pre, i don't know of anything specifically vulnerable that would actually matter	06:44
KotCzarny	i wonder if it was a sabotage	06:45
timely	because the https session keys are managed by nss not openssl	06:45
timely	and the ssh session keys would be managed by openssl097	06:45
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timely	(supposedly, i never actually checked that detail, but someone made that claim)	06:46
timely	i only know of two components that actually used 098	06:46
timely	one is for parsing afaiu, so it shouldn't matter	06:46
timely	and the other is for a wire protocol which you can't use w/o new hardware	06:46
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benuski	does anyone know how to reinstall the navicore software on the n810? i've messed it up something awful	06:49
GeneralAntilles	Purge the settings from mmc2	06:50
GeneralAntilles	/media/mmc2/map/	06:50
GeneralAntilles	or /media/mmc2/maps/	06:50
GeneralAntilles	Or something similar	06:51
benuski	that worked great	06:59
benuski	thanks!	06:59
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lsobral_	hi guys, the new release of canola, beta9, is available!	07:43
lsobral_	check it out: http://openbossa.indt.org/canola/news.html	07:43
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Navi	Sweet.	07:46
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GeneralAntilles	Application manager really needs to use something other than the error-sound for a successful install.	07:50
KotCzarny	post a bug	07:50
* KotCzarny is having fun with n800+fbconsole+btkb		07:51
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lopz	night	08:32
Navi	night	08:32
KotCzarny	night	08:32
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KotCzarny	qwerty, have you seen my new bootmenu?	08:50
KotCzarny	:)	08:50
qwerty12	KotCzarny, no, just came down :)	08:50
KotCzarny	http://mrrau.dyndns.org:23280/n800/bootmenu/bootmenu-kc-colors.jpg	08:50
KotCzarny	:)	08:50
qwerty12	Ooh, very nice :)	08:51
KotCzarny	indeed :)	08:51
qwerty12	I did a black one once, looked odd :D	08:51
KotCzarny	wanna know what to change?	08:51
KotCzarny	:)	08:51
qwerty12	Alright then please, I need to make another diablo initfs anyway :)	08:52
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KotCzarny	.conf and .sh files are in the same dir :)	08:53
qwerty12	Ok, thanks :)	08:53
KotCzarny	though you are interested in .sh one	08:53
KotCzarny	:)	08:53
KotCzarny	i have made some other changes too	08:53
qwerty12	Yep, I see it, thanks :)	08:54
qwerty12	Have you done the FB mod?	08:54
KotCzarny	not finished yet	08:54
qwerty12	I need to reapply that one.	08:54
KotCzarny	though most pieces are there	08:54
KotCzarny	:)	08:54
KotCzarny	ie. i need to make /etc/rc2.d detect that we need fbconsole and not x	08:54
qwerty12	You can also change the colour of the "press menu button" and "boot from mmc failed, using flash" etc by changing linux rc	08:55
qwerty12	Ah cool :)	08:55
qwerty12	*linuxrc	08:55
KotCzarny	:)	08:55
KotCzarny	yes, i did that	08:55
KotCzarny	files in fs/* are replacing the original ones	08:55
KotCzarny	:)	08:55
qwerty12	Cool :). I wish Nokia used Black instead of white. Hurts my eyes in the night heh.	08:56
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KotCzarny	yeah	08:56
KotCzarny	i made it grey	08:56
KotCzarny	to differentiate from fanoush initfs	08:56
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* qwerty12 wants someone to make tool to extract NOLO's pictures and repack with new ones :p		08:57
KotCzarny	heh	08:57
KotCzarny	nolo is a little fragile without serial cable	08:57
KotCzarny	:)	08:57
qwerty12	I've got a usb to serial converter from my sony ericsson days, I could try and make a plug for that :)	08:58
KotCzarny	i don't know if usb is available that early	08:58
KotCzarny	:)	08:58
qwerty12	I mean for my computer :)	08:58
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KotCzarny	For the moment, rotation isn't possible in the UI (lots of hardcoded	09:12
KotCzarny	800x480s abound), so it's not been a high priority on my list, but it is	09:12
KotCzarny	certainly on it, and I'll hopefully be adding the support at some stage.	09:12
KotCzarny	that's from: Jan 16, 2007, 10:57 AM	09:12
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AStorm	timely: well, given weak OpenSSL on both sides, the system is vulnerable to online attack	09:15
AStorm	given weak OpenSSL on one side, to a MITM attack	09:16
AStorm	(of course, only if keys are weak)	09:16
KotCzarny	astorm: have you seen my bootmenu?	09:16
KotCzarny	:)	09:16
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AStorm	no, I haven't	09:16
KotCzarny	no more black-on-white	09:17
KotCzarny	:)	09:17
AStorm	blah blah	09:17
KotCzarny	maybe blah for you	09:17
AStorm	how did you disable that horrible Nokia screen?	09:17
KotCzarny	but it hort my eyes	09:17
KotCzarny	just edited linuxrc	09:17
KotCzarny	:)	09:17
AStorm	and set diff colors? heheh	09:17
KotCzarny	yes	09:17
KotCzarny	:)	09:17
AStorm	weak	09:17
KotCzarny	but working	09:17
AStorm	tell me when you replace Nokia logo	09:18
KotCzarny	and the effect is what counts	09:18
KotCzarny	astorm, which one?	09:18
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AStorm	both	09:18
KotCzarny	because it's set few times during boot	09:18
AStorm	no, twice	09:18
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KotCzarny	and only the one from nolo isn't replaceable atm	09:18
* qwerty12 wants to get rid of the nolo one		09:18
AStorm	is, if you get a replacement nolo	09:18
KotCzarny	the rest you can simply comment out	09:18
qwerty12	logo-nokia don't mean shit. I've already deleted it.	09:18
AStorm	~lart Nokia and its closed stuff	09:18
* infobot cats /dev/urandom into Nokia and its closed stuff's ear		09:18
KotCzarny	i wonder how much nolo does	09:19
AStorm	it is a Fiasco kernel image	09:19
KotCzarny	hmm?	09:19
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AStorm	yes, you heard right	09:19
GeneralAntilles	qwerty12, you tried mounting NOLO on your computer yet?	09:20
AStorm	Nokia is hiding here a RTOS	09:20
qwerty12	GeneralAntilles, NOLO isn't jffs2	09:20
AStorm	yes, it isn't	09:20
GeneralAntilles	Ah, nevermind.	09:20
KotCzarny	hehe	09:20
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KotCzarny	yeah, it's like trying to mount command.com	09:20
KotCzarny	:>	09:20
KotCzarny	well	09:20
qwerty12	Best I ever saw was the probably incorrect info on the 0xFFFF site.	09:20
KotCzarny	more like mbr	09:20
KotCzarny	:)	09:20
AStorm	KotCzarny: yes, but it's a proggie for Fiasco	09:21
KotCzarny	i know	09:21
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AStorm	~lart Nokia for not using Fiasco to full extent	09:21
* infobot strangles Nokia with a 9-pole serial cable for not using Fiasco to full extent		09:21
AStorm	that would be great, really	09:22
AStorm	first real consumer use of RTOS	09:22
AStorm	and there's L4Linux already	09:22
AStorm	infobot: have a cookie	09:23
infobot	Ta. Munch	09:23
KotCzarny	then all we need is someone with jtag cable who tries few loaders	09:24
KotCzarny	:)	09:24
AStorm	jtag? I couldn't see any port...	09:25
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AStorm	why do you need a jtag cable, when there's a cold flasher in rom?	09:25
qwerty12	The port's above the battery.	09:25
AStorm	qwerty12: really? I only saw serial there...	09:26
qwerty12	That is the jtag	09:26
AStorm	no, sorry	09:26
AStorm	that's the serial port	09:26
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qwerty12	You can plug jtag into there iirc	09:26
AStorm	mhm, serial-based, plausible	09:27
AStorm	but I also couldn't see any chip governing it	09:27
AStorm	(unless it's built into one of the TI chips)	09:27
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qwerty12	It's meant for cold flashing so I guess it would be somewhere low level.	09:27
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AStorm	maybe you can just send the flasher over it	09:28
KotCzarny	i wonder if anyone did a nolo reflash	09:29
GeneralAntilles	JTAG is how the factory recovers from NOLO brickings.	09:29
AStorm	q: where is it?	09:29
AStorm	it probably won't be the serial port	09:29
* qwerty12 wonders if nokia also use phoenix for other things.		09:29
AStorm	although it is possible	09:29
AStorm	qwerty12: like, unit testing? definitely	09:29
GeneralAntilles	It's next to the battery in the N800.	09:29
KotCzarny	http://mamona.mmapps.net/n800_serial/pics/	09:30
KotCzarny	:)	09:30
KotCzarny	here it is	09:30
AStorm	GeneralAntilles: where in N810 then?	09:30
GeneralAntilles	Somewhere else.	09:30
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AStorm	if it is also the serial port... it means the controller is in TI chip	09:30
AStorm	possible	09:30
GeneralAntilles	It is.	09:30
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* qwerty12 wants someone to crack latest phoenix so I can connect my N800 up. I've already downloaded the files that correspond to the N800.		09:31
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AStorm	qwerty12: what is that phoenix?	09:31
KotCzarny	phone flasher	09:31
KotCzarny	;)	09:31
AStorm	blah	09:31
qwerty12	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17665	09:32
qwerty12	N800 is based off BB5 so Phoenix supports it.	09:32
AStorm	ok, if they got Fiasco to run, they must've built it for ARM... expected that to work, yes	09:32
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KotCzarny	qwerty: look at the pics i have pasted, maybe you can create your own dongle :>	09:33
qwerty12	Hehe, my hardware skills are **** :p	09:33
KotCzarny	i mean, cable	09:33
KotCzarny	:)	09:33
AStorm	as I said, they should've written the drivers for Fiasco	09:33
AStorm	and used slightly patched L4Linux	09:34
AStorm	would actually be more stable :>	09:34
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AStorm	(e.g. broken camera driver wouldn't hang the device)	09:34
qwerty12	may ask my friend, who's dad works in a phone shop to steal me a dongle :p. It would be useful anyway for the	09:34
qwerty12	next bb5 phone I plan on getting.	09:34
qwerty12	Sorry, enter button slipped.	09:34
GeneralAntilles	WTF are you on about, AStorm?	09:35
GeneralAntilles	FIASCO is just the firmware image	09:35
AStorm	GeneralAntilles: no, it's a full scale RTOS kernel	09:35
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AStorm	:>	09:35
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AStorm	http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/fiasco/ - this one, I suspect	09:35
qwerty12	http://www.nopcode.org/0xFFFF/?p=docu&q=fiasco	09:36
AStorm	(site is old, devel is alive)	09:36
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AStorm	blah format is quick and easy it seems	09:37
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AStorm	we need to look what's in omap-nand	09:37
AStorm	because that is the true kernel	09:38
AStorm	(which then passes control to Linux)	09:38
qwerty12	All qwerty wants to know is that which one of these contain the images: 2nd.bin-RX-34:1301,1302,1501,1502,1503,1504,1601,1602, xloader.bin-RX-34:1301,1302,1501,1502,1503,1504,1601,1602, secondary.bin-RX-34:1301,1302,1501,1502,1503,1504,1601,1602	09:42
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KotCzarny	probably all of them	09:42
KotCzarny	:)	09:42
* qwerty12 is also glad I can delete the stupid hands pictures. me laughs at my friend with N95...		09:42
KotCzarny	qwerty, hands are replaceable on rootfs	09:43
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KotCzarny	you don't even have to reflash anything	09:43
KotCzarny	:)	09:43
qwerty12	KotCzarny, I don't think so. different sizes. for the images.	09:43
qwerty12	KotCzarny, I know :). I'm glad that you can delete them.	09:43
KotCzarny	:)	09:43
KotCzarny	well	09:43
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KotCzarny	i replaced them	09:43
KotCzarny	with my own pic	09:43
KotCzarny	:)	09:43
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qwerty12	My guess is that secondary.bin-RX-34:1301,1302,1501,1502,1503,1504,1601,1602 holds the images. I wouldn't consider images to be a massivly important/required part and its got the biggest size.	09:44
GeneralAntilles	You should change some random bits, flash it and find out. :P	09:45
qwerty12	GeneralAntilles, Maybe another day when I feel in a killing mood ;P	09:46
KotCzarny	yeah, flash your n95 with n800 image	09:47
KotCzarny	:)	09:47
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KotCzarny	qwerty: anything interesting diablo wise?	09:48
qwerty12	rd flags make me laugh. Quite a bit of the stuff enabled with them are done by the initfs and init scripts. They run cal-tool to see if a flag has been enabled.	09:48
qwerty12	KotCzarny, I've only got diablo initfs.	09:48
qwerty12	NOLO wasn't touched.	09:48
* qwerty12 thinks linux hex editors suck. I'm probably gonna run winhex from wine.		09:51
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trickie_	http://os.inf.tu-dresden.de/pipermail/l4-hackers/2006/002036.html	09:51
trickie_	interesting	09:51
qwerty12	Also any arm asm experts here? Try running the bootloaders through IDA or summat like that.	09:51
KotCzarny	qwerty: use mc, it has hex editor	09:52
KotCzarny	:)	09:52
qwerty12	Ok, thanks. But now, the homework that is expected to take 1hr to complete must be done in 20 mins >.< and be given in today.	09:52
qwerty12	Bye.	09:52
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KotCzarny	trickie_: indeed, interesting	10:00
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KotCzarny	heh	10:17
KotCzarny	fun	10:17
KotCzarny	someone should try: apt-get remove gcc-3.4-base	10:17
KotCzarny	it cries so hard :>	10:17
KotCzarny	To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'	10:18
KotCzarny	;)	10:18
summatusmentis	for real?	10:18
KotCzarny	ok, stupid question, how to install gcc?	10:18
KotCzarny	:)	10:18
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KotCzarny	hint: apt-get install gcc doesn't work	10:19
KotCzarny	:)	10:19
summatusmentis	you may need to specify the correct name	10:20
summatusmentis	apt-get install gcc-3.4-base	10:20
summatusmentis	etc. etc.	10:20
KotCzarny	i have it installed	10:20
KotCzarny	but i don't see gcc	10:20
summatusmentis	what?	10:20
summatusmentis	like... you can't run it?	10:21
KotCzarny	-sh: gcc: not found	10:21
KotCzarny	apt-get install gcc-3.4-base	10:21
KotCzarny	gcc-3.4-base is already the newest version.	10:21
kulve	dpkg -L gcc-3.4-base	10:22
KotCzarny	only docs	10:22
KotCzarny	:)	10:22
summatusmentis	KotCzarny: maybe a symlink?	10:22
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KotCzarny	ls: /usr/bin/gcc*: No such file or directory	10:22
summatusmentis	uh oh	10:22
summatusmentis	I don't remember... is there a force option?	10:23
KotCzarny	probably gcc lives in another package	10:23
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summatusmentis	or apt-get install --reinstall gcc-3.4-base	10:23
lcdd	how about gcc-3.4	10:23
KotCzarny	Package gcc-3.4 is not available	10:23
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summatusmentis	try install --reinstall	10:24
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summatusmentis	debian has it, I'm not sure about maemo	10:24
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trickie_	KotCzarny: is there a build-essential package?	10:25
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kulve	maemo probably doesn't have gcc as there's little use for it	10:25
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KotCzarny	i remember i have installed it one day	10:27
KotCzarny	just don't remember which repo had it	10:27
KotCzarny	and yes, gronmayer is down still	10:27
KotCzarny	Reinstallation of gcc-3.4-base is not possible, it cannot be downloaded.	10:30
KotCzarny	hmm	10:30
KotCzarny	it looks like it's living in http://repository.maemo.org/pool/chinook/free/g/gcc-3.4/	10:34
KotCzarny	Failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo4.0.1/free/g/gcc-3.4/gcc-3.4-base_3.4.4cs2005q3.2-5.osso8_armel.deb 401 Unauthorized [IP: 69.22.179.82 80]	10:35
KotCzarny	D'OH.	10:35
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KotCzarny	it's not mine ip	10:35
KotCzarny	o.o	10:35
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KotCzarny	but wait	10:36
jdiaz	help!	10:36
kulve	KotCzarny: 401 here too..	10:37
jdiaz	I modified sudoers file, I put there something wrong... and now I can't sudo	10:37
KotCzarny	kulve, wtf	10:37
jdiaz	so i can't gain root access	10:37
KotCzarny	they went crazy	10:37
jdiaz	and cannot undo the sudoers changes	10:37
kulve	jdiaz: login as root through ssh and fix it	10:37
jdiaz	yep, that is the first I tought	10:37
KotCzarny	kulve, good thing i have mirrored whole repository.maemo.org	10:37
jdiaz	however, I can't either, I do not why...	10:37
jdiaz	perhaps I forgot the root password	10:38
jdiaz	perhaps I disabled the root pasword and forgot about it	10:38
jdiaz	I used "easyroot" for so long, that I forgot the ssh way	10:38
KotCzarny	kulve, i see, akamai sees me as unauthorized ip	10:38
KotCzarny	i can get the package from repostory.maemo.org	10:39
KotCzarny	wtf.	10:39
kulve	jdiaz: then you need to install the initfs and use the "emergency ssh access" to login to initfs and mount the rootfs by hand and fix things	10:39
jdiaz	kulve, thanks... there is a hope then	10:39
kulve	jdiaz: there could be easier way too, but can't think of any right now	10:39
trickie_	jdiaz: or maybe reinstalling openssh lets reset the password?	10:39
trickie_	i think i have done that before	10:39
jdiaz	hmm...	10:40
trickie_	maybe have to remove it first	10:40
kulve	that would be easier, if it works :)	10:40
trickie_	when i installed openssh the package configuration let me set the root pass	10:40
jdiaz	trickie_, I don't think so, /etc/passwd is not related to ssh, but you gave me an idea	10:40
trickie_	no	10:40
KotCzarny	lol	10:40
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kulve	yeah, install a package that sets the root passwd	10:40
trickie_	but the installer has a prompt to set the password	10:40
KotCzarny	i'm getting 401 on catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com too	10:40
KotCzarny	akamai is b0rken.	10:40
KotCzarny	(or my dns)	10:41
kulve	and mine?	10:41
KotCzarny	can you check what ip gets you repository.maemo.org ?	10:41
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KotCzarny	69.22.179.90, 69.22.179.82 for me	10:41
kulve	tkulve@sd056:~$ host repository.maemo.org	10:42
kulve	repository.maemo.org is an alias for repository.maemo.org.edgesuite.net.	10:42
kulve	repository.maemo.org.edgesuite.net is an alias for a515.g.akamai.net.	10:42
kulve	a515.g.akamai.net has address 195.215.37.63	10:42
kulve	a515.g.akamai.net has address 195.215.37.56	10:42
jdiaz	uh oh...	10:42
jdiaz	I can't install anything!	10:42
jdiaz	apparently the application manager also uses sudo, which is broken	10:42
KotCzarny	wtf.. now repostory is 401 for me too	10:42
kulve	jdiaz: yeah, it seems to use sudo too	10:43
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kulve	wc -l /etc/sudoers	10:44
kulve	52 /etc/sudoers	10:44
* jdiaz is getting nervous		10:44
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trickie_	jdiaz: it seems the only way to fix it without flashing rootfs again is to install the intifs from http://fanoush.wz.cz/maemo/	10:45
jdiaz	but how can I install it when broken sudoers?	10:45
KotCzarny	from windows	10:45
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kulve	you need to flash it	10:45
trickie_	you can flash it	10:45
KotCzarny	or another linux box	10:45
kulve	it flasher tool	10:45
KotCzarny	darn. i can't install anything on my n800	10:45
kulve	trickie_: you can also boot from mmc and fix the rootfs from there	10:45
KotCzarny	everything goes 401	10:46
kulve	s,trickie_,jdiaz,	10:46
trickie_	kulve: yes assuming he has set up a mmc to boot to	10:46
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jdiaz	I didn't	10:47
jjo	I got 401 also using the link to the repository but when I went to the parent directory and clicked the file again I was able to download it	10:47
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kulve	I would guess that you could just download one from the net? And the boot system to mmc with flasher without the need to flash the new initfs	10:47
trickie_	sounds like a plan :)	10:47
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KotCzarny	jjo, so it's one of akamai server freaking out or someone at nokia working on repositories	10:47
GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, or talk somebody into giving you the jffs2 image that initfs flasher spits out.	10:47
Cptnodegard	weee, my BT gps is here	10:47
kulve	although I recommend using the fanoush's initfs. It's just convenient :)	10:48
GeneralAntilles	and flash that with the flasher	10:48
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jjo	nobody at nokia should be working on the repsitories atm	10:48
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KotCzarny	jjo, why? it's morning there	10:48
KotCzarny	:)	10:48
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jdiaz	I never reflashed my n810 yet, so I'm a bit lost now...	10:48
jdiaz	I'm reading about initfs	10:48
hugolp	jdiaz: its easy	10:48
GeneralAntilles	You never flashed your N810?	10:48
GeneralAntilles	So you're running on the factory firmware?	10:49
jjo	KotCzarny: I hope I would know if someone was	10:49
GeneralAntilles	old. . .	10:49
jdiaz	GA, correct	10:49
GeneralAntilles	old and very buggy. :\	10:49
jdiaz	no.. i checked the version	10:49
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kulve	cat /etc/osso_software_version	10:49
kulve	RX-34+RX-44_2008SE_2.2007.50-2_PR_MR0	10:49
KotCzarny	jjo, any idea why 401?	10:49
jdiaz	i have the penultimate version	10:49
KotCzarny	and how to fix it?	10:49
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jjo	KotCzarny: no idea yet	10:51
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summatusmentis	dang it! I did not realize it was this late	10:51
summatusmentis	I need to stop researching/obsessing over the N810, and sleep	10:51
KotCzarny	jjo, the worst thing is that catalogueer repo also went 401	10:52
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GeneralAntilles	Just buy it so you can do that.	10:52
summatusmentis	GeneralAntilles: buying it later this week, if I do. I get a $100 discount on it because of a conference I'm flying to tomorrow	10:52
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KotCzarny	hmm	10:58
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KotCzarny	great	10:58
KotCzarny	major repository breakage	10:58
RST38h	KILL KILL	10:59
KotCzarny	rst, can you try refreshing repo list?	10:59
KotCzarny	if you get 401 too?	10:59
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RST38h	Left N810 at home	10:59
KotCzarny	hrm	10:59
RST38h	Too warm outside, could not take a jacket with me =)	10:59
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KotCzarny	i hate akamai.	11:01
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KotCzarny	good thing i have a mirror.	11:03
kulve	I guess akamai usually works quite well even under very heavy load?	11:03
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KotCzarny	kulve, it's not the problem with load but config	11:04
KotCzarny	or maybe with repos themselves	11:04
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KotCzarny	ok, how to reinstall a package with dpkg?	11:04
KotCzarny	or with apt using local file	11:04
RST38h	dpkg -i	11:04
RST38h	no?	11:04
kulve	I guess yes	11:04
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legind	im trying to use insmod to insert modules with specific module options.. why wouldn't this work: insmod usbserial.ko vendor=0x1410 product=0x4100	11:05
kulve	iirc, dpkg doesn't mind if the package is installed already	11:05
RST38h	http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN1916854720080519	11:05
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RST38h	hehe	11:06
KotCzarny	black indian?	11:06
RST38h	believe it or not	11:06
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RST38h	I guess McCain will be known as "White Eagle"...	11:07
KotCzarny	lol	11:07
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KotCzarny	gcc version 3.4.4 (release) (CodeSourcery ARM 2005q3-2)	11:09
KotCzarny	hah.	11:09
KotCzarny	installed	11:09
KotCzarny	by it didn't created a symlink	11:09
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legind	anyone have experience with os2008 kernel modules	11:10
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jdiaz	argh! this is frustrating... I remembered the root password, and I can check it remembered it correctly, because I did crypt() on my guess and compared the output with the one stored in /etc/passwd, and they match	11:18
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jdiaz	but I can't still login via ssh, because the password is disabled (it has a ! in fromt)	11:18
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jdiaz	if I only could delete that "!"... but of course this needs root privileges	11:19
jdiaz	I guess I have to reflash...	11:19
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GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, get a copy of fanoush's initfs	11:19
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jdiaz	GA, but I can't install it without root privileges, can I?	11:19
GeneralAntilles	You can get the jffs2 it outputs from somebody and flash that with flasher.	11:20
jdiaz	Excuse my ignorance... what would do that flash?	11:20
jdiaz	Would it replace only the boot sector?	11:20
GeneralAntilles	flasher-3.0	11:20
GeneralAntilles	You can just flash the initfs	11:20
GeneralAntilles	Then that gives you initfs with usb net and ssh/telnet	11:20
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jdiaz	but I can't login via ssh...	11:21
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GeneralAntilles	The initfs dropbear server is separate from the rootfs openssh server.	11:21
jdiaz	ah, ok	11:21
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jdiaz	and it has a default well-known root password, I assume	11:22
GeneralAntilles	lol	11:22
GeneralAntilles	It's purpose is for recovering after situations like this. :P	11:22
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jdiaz	empty root passwd, then?	11:22
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GeneralAntilles	rootme	11:22
jdiaz	ok	11:23
GeneralAntilles	Download the flasher and read the readme for now.	11:23
GeneralAntilles	http://fanoush.wz.cz/maemo/	11:23
jdiaz	thanks	11:23
jdiaz	I'll come back soon, I'm afraid :)	11:23
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Italodance	http://www.megamobilecontent.com/Nokia-N800-wallpapers.html	11:27
Italodance	nice source	11:27
GeneralAntilles	http://interfacelift.com/wallpaper/index.php?sort=date&aspect=mobile_devices&w=800&h=480	11:28
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GeneralAntilles	I'm still waiting for the command-line method for changing the desktop. . . .	11:28
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GeneralAntilles	I'd like to cycle it every night.	11:28
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Italodance	ummm good idea	11:29
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Jaffa	Morning, all	11:31
KotCzarny	mourning	11:31
GeneralAntilles	Howdy, Jaffa.	11:31
sp3000	roar	11:31
Italodance	morning	11:32
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GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, I've got the initfs image for you.	11:33
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KotCzarny	ok, is there a cvs .deb of application manager somewhere?	11:37
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jdiaz	GA, really?	11:44
jdiaz	oh! Thank you! Thank you!	11:44
jdiaz	I was writing right now to a colleague asking him help	11:44
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jdiaz	could you please send it to my mail box?	11:45
jdiaz	jldiaz@gmail.com	11:45
GeneralAntilles	http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/initfs.bootmenu.jffs2.zip	11:46
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GeneralAntilles	You able to flash now, jdiaz?	11:47
hrw	morning etc	11:47
GeneralAntilles	Howdy, hrw.	11:47
jdiaz	I don't know... I never did it before	11:47
GeneralAntilles	Well, you have stuff? :P	11:47
jdiaz	If I understood correctly, the initfs package contains a flasher	11:47
hrw	did someone tried to flash tablet with rootfs taken from device?	11:47
GeneralAntilles	Linux computer, USB cable and N810.	11:47
jdiaz	it is preferable to flash from the PC than from the tablet?	11:48
GeneralAntilles	You'll have to in this case.	11:48
jdiaz	I have all the hardware, yes	11:48
hrw	I would like to test some things on n810 but do not want to reinstall everything on maemo	11:48
GeneralAntilles	OK, then you're good to go.	11:48
jdiaz	oh, of course, flashing from the tablet would require root privileges...	11:48
KotCzarny	hrw, mmc boot?	11:48
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, that's your problem. ;)	11:48
GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, download the flasher-3.0 from here: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/d3.php	11:48
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jdiaz	ok. I've read in the docs of initfs about some problems on OS2008	11:49
GeneralAntilles	That's prior to 51-3	11:49
trickie_	jdiaz: i have never had trouble with it on OS2008	11:50
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trickie_	and i have even modified it a bit	11:50
GeneralAntilles	You'll know if you have problems.	11:50
GeneralAntilles	It's an OMAP timing issue that'll prevent the device from starting up.	11:50
jdiaz	oh	11:52
jdiaz	if that happens, the solution would be to reflash the OS?	11:52
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	11:52
GeneralAntilles	It's actually not an initfs thing, anyway	11:52
GeneralAntilles	It's NOLO	11:52
GeneralAntilles	Get the flasher-3.0, jdiaz?	11:53
jdiaz	Well, I've downloaded your initfs, the flahser, and I'll try the whole thing	11:54
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GeneralAntilles	OK, step one is to get the flasher ready	11:54
GeneralAntilles	chmod +x etc	11:54
jdiaz	It will take me a while, because I want to read the docs and understand what I'm doing	11:55
GeneralAntilles	It's very straightforward	11:55
GeneralAntilles	I can explain as I go if you want.	11:55
hrw	KotCzarny: prefer to jffs2 boot due to lack of minisd card	11:55
jdiaz	thank you, your are very kind	11:55
hrw	KotCzarny: internal n810 card filling would take too much time ;)	11:55
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GeneralAntilles	Just let me know when you're ready.	11:55
KotCzarny	hrw: but it's simpler to do a backup/restore	11:55
KotCzarny	:)	11:55
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trickie_	hrw: i use flasher to boot a kernel with out actually flashing it	11:56
jdiaz	ok, I downloaded the program flasher-3.0-static	11:56
trickie_	hrw: im not sure if you could do the same for a rootfs	11:56
jdiaz	and chmod +x it	11:56
hrw	trickie_: you cannot	11:56
jdiaz	now, I plug my n810 to the PC via usb	11:56
KotCzarny	hrw, you would have to boot to usb	11:57
GeneralAntilles	Make sure everything you need on the N810 is backed up first.	11:57
KotCzarny	or some rsync magic	11:57
jdiaz	you mean what is in the internal 256Mb flash, don't you?	11:57
GeneralAntilles	Yes	11:57
jdiaz	and what is accesible as user...	11:58
GeneralAntilles	It wont do anything to the cards	11:58
jdiaz	because I can't access as root...	11:58
GeneralAntilles	and, actually, it wont be doing anything to the 256MB flash, either.	11:58
GeneralAntilles	But just in case. ;)	11:58
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jdiaz	well, I'll backup all under /home/user	11:58
GeneralAntilles	Good plan.	11:58
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jdiaz	I mounted /home/user to my PC via sshfs	11:59
jdiaz	and I'll copy it	11:59
jdiaz	(no, better I'm tar-ing it)	12:01
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kpanic	hi, I'm in the process to port an application to n800, specifically I have to recompile obex-data-server on maemo, I don't know pretty nothing of cross-compiling, is there an howto for maemo? thanks	12:16
KotCzarny	kpanic: 3 words: vmware sdk image	12:18
RST38h	Why does he need vmware?	12:18
KotCzarny	because it doesn't require setting up anything?	12:18
KotCzarny	download and run kind of solution	12:19
RST38h	but don't you have to set up vmware?	12:20
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KotCzarny	i believe it's click and install too	12:20
RST38h	sounds compliczted	12:21
RST38h	why not install it on an existing system?	12:21
KotCzarny	because he is a little lost already?	12:22
KotCzarny	:)	12:22
RST38h	he will just get lost further...	12:22
* RST38h usually suggests installing sb2 in such cases		12:23
KotCzarny	:)	12:23
kpanic	ok, I'll go the vmware route :)	12:23
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GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, backed up?	12:28
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baa	any consensus on maemo's future, given nokia's acquisition of trolltech?	12:29
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GeneralAntilles	There's plenty of very official feedback about that.	12:29
GeneralAntilles	There's a lot of good references here, baa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Tablet_OS#Qt	12:30
Mikho	I'm trying to install Maemo 4 in scratchbox using the installation script, but after downloading a ton of packages the script spawns a number of package-not-configured-yet-errors. What gives?	12:30
baa	thanks!	12:30
GeneralAntilles	In summary, Qt libraries likely to ship with maemo in the winter/spring 2009	12:31
GeneralAntilles	Nothing else so far	12:31
GeneralAntilles	maybe same application-code sharing between S60 and maemo.	12:31
jdiaz	I've just finished the backup	12:31
GeneralAntilles	OK, next step	12:31
jdiaz	I had problems with the wifi connection during the backup	12:31
GeneralAntilles	Turn the N810 off and plug it into USB on the PC.	12:31
jdiaz	turn it off?	12:31
jdiaz	ok	12:31
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, NOLO handles the flashing so we gotta catch it during boot.	12:32
GeneralAntilles	It's fairly well-charged, right?	12:32
jdiaz	I didn't understand a word, but it's done	12:32
jdiaz	can I connect the charger?	12:32
jdiaz	just in case...	12:32
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, that's one way we can do it.	12:32
GeneralAntilles	But for now, start the flasher with this command: ./flasher-3.0-static -n <myinitfsimage> -f -R	12:33
GeneralAntilles	-n points it to the initfs image (in this case, the .jffs2 image I generated from fanoush's flasher)	12:33
GeneralAntilles	-f tells it to flash that image	12:33
GeneralAntilles	and -R tells it to reboot when it's done.	12:33
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jdiaz	initfs.bootmenu.jffs2 ?	12:34
GeneralAntilles	Right	12:34
GeneralAntilles	You may or may not need to do it as root.	12:34
GeneralAntilles	Depends on how your machine is set up.	12:34
GeneralAntilles	Hi, andre___. :)	12:34
jdiaz	Suitable USB device not found, waiting	12:35
GeneralAntilles	OK, good.	12:35
GeneralAntilles	Now go back to the N810	12:35
GeneralAntilles	First, find your charger cable.	12:35
Italodance	guys i found it the volume of n800 is louder	12:35
jdiaz	At hand	12:35
GeneralAntilles	Then hold down the Swap key on the front of the N810	12:35
GeneralAntilles	Looks like two overlapping squares	12:35
Italodance	N810: 4.13-inch (800 x 480) screen, two hardware buttons, 128cc volume	12:35
GeneralAntilles	Should be the topmost button on the front of the device.	12:35
Italodance	N800: 4.13-inch (800 x 480) screen, three hardware buttons and D-pad, 137cc volume.	12:35
jdiaz	swap? Is it what the manual call it "Home" key?	12:35
GeneralAntilles	Exactly.	12:35
jdiaz	below the camera, ok	12:36
GeneralAntilles	Now, while holding down the Home key, plug in the charger.	12:36
onion_	yay, nokia linux phones someday	12:36
jdiaz	nokia screen with small usb icon	12:36
jdiaz	USB device found found at bus 006, device address 012	12:36
GeneralAntilles	flasher should be doing its thing now	12:36
jdiaz	Error claiming USB interface: Operation not permitted	12:36
GeneralAntilles	OK	12:37
GeneralAntilles	Set the N810 down	12:37
jdiaz	oops... then sudo	12:37
GeneralAntilles	Right	12:37
jdiaz	I have to switch off the n810 again?	12:37
GeneralAntilles	Nope	12:37
GeneralAntilles	It's ready and waiting	12:37
GeneralAntilles	Just rerun the flasher with sudo and it'll do its thing.	12:37
jdiaz	Flashing initfs... done.	12:37
GeneralAntilles	Now it should restart	12:37
jdiaz	booting menu in n810	12:37
GeneralAntilles	You can go ahead and pull the USB cable.	12:38
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jdiaz	Hm...	12:38
jdiaz	set date and time	12:38
GeneralAntilles	The wizard is showing up?	12:39
GeneralAntilles	Interesting	12:39
jdiaz	booting finished, all looks normal	12:39
GeneralAntilles	Good	12:39
GeneralAntilles	Now, go ahead and power it back off.	12:39
GeneralAntilles	Did you grab the initfs_flasher and readme?	12:39
jdiaz	yes	12:39
GeneralAntilles	PC setup for USBnet?	12:40
jdiaz	When switching off, the system sound was choppy...	12:40
jdiaz	nevermind	12:40
jdiaz	no, I do not have USBnet	12:40
jdiaz	I'm using ubuntu in the pc	12:40
GeneralAntilles	OK, you'll have to do that first.	12:40
GeneralAntilles	I'm not sure how to set it up for Linux	12:40
GeneralAntilles	Looks like fanoush has links to a couple of guides in the readme file	12:41
GeneralAntilles	google will probably turn up something useful, too.	12:41
jdiaz	yes I'll do that	12:41
GeneralAntilles	Once that's done, you just need to follow the directions in the readme	12:41
GeneralAntilles	Then you can get in with ssh/telnet and fix the sudoers file.	12:41
GeneralAntilles	You'll have to mount the rootfs (256MB flash) before you can work on it	12:42
GeneralAntilles	He's got that covered in the readme, too.	12:42
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jdiaz	hum... I've configured an usb0 interface in the PC	12:46
jdiaz	when I try ifup usb0, i get errors	12:46
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jdiaz	I assume these are due to the usb cable unplugged?	12:46
GeneralAntilles	Don't have a clue. ;)	12:46
jdiaz	ok, then I'll try to continue	12:46
GeneralAntilles	Maybe google the errors	12:47
jdiaz	I have to switch-on the tablet now, with the usb cable plugged to the PC, right?	12:47
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GeneralAntilles	Yeah, plug in the USB cable	12:47
GeneralAntilles	Turn it on	12:47
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GeneralAntilles	Then at the bootmenu press the Home key.	12:47
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GeneralAntilles	Then you can plug it in and leave it while you get the computer ready.	12:47
jdiaz	oh, there was no bootmenu this time	12:48
jdiaz	only the nokia logo	12:48
jdiaz	and the wizard again...	12:48
GeneralAntilles	No bootmenu at all?	12:49
jdiaz	I think I understand...	12:49
jdiaz	the real booting occurs when I plug the charger	12:49
jdiaz	the charger was still plugged	12:49
GeneralAntilles	Oh, right	12:49
GeneralAntilles	That'd be the issue.	12:49
GeneralAntilles	Gotta power it down completely	12:50
jdiaz	I unplugged it	12:50
GeneralAntilles	Hehe	12:50
jdiaz	the plugged again	12:50
jdiaz	bootmenu appeared	12:50
jdiaz	i hold Home key	12:50
GeneralAntilles	It's actually booted most of the way for charging.	12:50
jdiaz	nothing occured apparently	12:50
jdiaz	the icon "Charging" is displayed	12:50
GeneralAntilles	Need to start it up normally.	12:50
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jdiaz	Should be able to ssh now?	12:50
GeneralAntilles	Unplug the charger, wait for it to turn off.	12:50
GeneralAntilles	Then just start it up with the power key.	12:50
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jdiaz	ok	12:51
GeneralAntilles	Press the Home key when the bootmenu appears.	12:51
GeneralAntilles	Fun times with runlevels. :P	12:51
jdiaz	how much time need I to hold the home key?	12:52
GeneralAntilles	Should just need to press it, actually.	12:52
jdiaz	I released when the nokia hands screen appeared	12:52
GeneralAntilles	It'll say stuff about usb networking	12:52
jdiaz	no	12:52
jdiaz	no mention to usb	12:52
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, it didn't catch it then.	12:52
jdiaz	the only message was something like "booting from /...."	12:53
GeneralAntilles	Press it once when the bootmenu actually appears.	12:53
jdiaz	the wizard asking the time appears all the times	12:53
jdiaz	should the usb cable be plugged during booting?	12:53
GeneralAntilles	Yes	12:54
jdiaz	a message "Press and hold home key while menu,,," appears for an instant (I have no time to read it completely)	12:54
GeneralAntilles	Though it probably doesn't depend on it.	12:54
GeneralAntilles	Damn	12:54
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GeneralAntilles	The timeout on the initfs is set to zero on something. :\	12:55
jdiaz	Can I have the home key pressed in advance?	12:55
GeneralAntilles	Actually, yes.	12:55
GeneralAntilles	(I just tried it)	12:55
GeneralAntilles	Just release it as soon as you see the bootmenu come up.	12:55
jdiaz	this is tricky :-)	12:56
jdiaz	no luck	12:56
jdiaz	the message is "Booting from flash.."	12:56
jdiaz	(mtdblock4 jffs2)	12:56
GeneralAntilles	OK, let me put together another initfs image with a real timeout. :\	12:56
jdiaz	btw... there is no a real bootmenu	12:56
jdiaz	only a message line at the top	12:57
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, I screwed it up.	12:57
GeneralAntilles	2 minutes	12:57
jdiaz	no problem	12:57
blahdeblah-lap	Can anyone tell me what are the big features/fixes in RX-34_2008SE_2.2007.51-3_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin?	12:57
jdiaz	you are being very helpful	12:57
GeneralAntilles	Compared to, blahdeblah-lap?	12:57
hrw	blahdeblah-lap: compared to 50.x? only bootloader	12:57
blahdeblah-lap	.50-2	12:57
GeneralAntilles	50-2, just the updated NOLO (which you'd know if you needed)	12:57
blahdeblah-lap	The tableteer web site told me i needed it, so i updated.	12:58
hrw	blahdeblah-lap: if your n800/n810 has problems to start after power off you want nolo from 51.3	12:58
jdiaz	what kind of problems?	12:58
blahdeblah-lap	I don't suppose it fixes that stupid metalayer-crawler issue where it chews all the CPU and runs down your battery in no time at all?	12:58
hrw	jdiaz: if you did not noticed then do not worry	12:59
jdiaz	Sometimes, I have to press several times the power button	12:59
jdiaz	or hold it	12:59
jdiaz	release it	12:59
jdiaz	hold it again...	12:59
hrw	jdiaz: in short - poweroff, 1h on charger to poweron	12:59
jdiaz	until the led becomes blue	12:59
jdiaz	aha, no my problem them :-)	12:59
hrw	jdiaz: I cursed nokia a lot after bought n810	12:59
hrw	jdiaz: especially when got informations about time which it took to nokia to test that fix	13:00
GeneralAntilles	blahdeblah-lap, metalayer-crawler shouldn't give you any trouble. Either you've got a recursive symlink or a corrupted card.	13:00
GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, I'm testing this one on mine first to be sure. ;)	13:01
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blahdeblah-lap	GeneralAntilles: Regardless, it shouldn't do that!	13:01
jdiaz	can I modify from the PC the initfs image you provided me before?	13:01
GeneralAntilles	If you can figure out how to mount a jffs2 loopback device. ;)	13:02
GeneralAntilles	It's just a matter of changing a line or two if you can.	13:02
* GeneralAntilles shrugs.		13:03
jdiaz	:) I better wait	13:03
GeneralAntilles	Just make sure neither of your cards are corrupted and that you don't have any recursive symlinks.	13:03
GeneralAntilles	Or disable it if you don't need Media player	13:03
jdiaz	I tried to mount the image from nokia, but I hadn't enough ram	13:03
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GeneralAntilles	OK, this one's good, jdiaz.	13:05
jdiaz	same url?	13:06
GeneralAntilles	Let me grab it off the device and upload it.	13:06
GeneralAntilles	When it gets uploaded, yes.	13:06
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GeneralAntilles	Uploading. . . .	13:09
GeneralAntilles	http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/initfs.bootmenu.jffs2.zip	13:09
GeneralAntilles	Same steps as before, just use this one instead.	13:09
jdiaz	I think this time can do it on my own :-)	13:11
GeneralAntilles	Hey, the good part of this is that you get to remember it even better 'cause you got to do it right! :D	13:12
GeneralAntilles	s/right/twice/	13:12
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: Hey, the good part of this is that you get to remember it even better 'cause you got to do it twice! :D	13:12
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hendry	do people here use maemo-sdk or http://www.scratchbox.org/download/scratchbox-apophis/ ?	13:14
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jdiaz	i reflashed this one, but apparently it is the same than before (at least, the same behaviour)	13:18
jdiaz	perhaps the proxy cache...	13:18
GeneralAntilles	Really?	13:18
GeneralAntilles	Weirdness. :\	13:18
jdiaz	how can I tell if it is a new one?	13:18
GeneralAntilles	Well, the menu layout should be different.	13:18
jdiaz	there is no menu layout	13:18
GeneralAntilles	Yeah. . . .	13:19
jdiaz	I mean.. how can I tell if the zip file is different?	13:19
jdiaz	or my proxy is giving me the same file	13:19
GeneralAntilles	I'll change the name.	13:19
jdiaz	ok, thanks	13:19
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GeneralAntilles	http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/initfs.bootmenu.new.jffs2.zip	13:19
jdiaz	weird	13:20
jdiaz	that url gives me an html instead of a zip	13:21
jdiaz	a mostly empty html file	13:21
GeneralAntilles	OK, round 3	13:21
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GeneralAntilles	http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/initfs.new.jffs2.zip	13:22
jdiaz	this one is good	13:23
GeneralAntilles	Woo!	13:23
jdiaz	i mean, the zip file	13:23
jdiaz	however, once flashed, there is no menu :-(	13:23
GeneralAntilles	STILL?	13:23
GeneralAntilles	Yeesh	13:23
GeneralAntilles	Honestly, I don't have a clue. . . .	13:23
GeneralAntilles	You might try holding down the menu key on the slider when it's starting up	13:24
GeneralAntilles	that might force it to bring up the bootmenu	13:24
jdiaz	menu key on the slider?	13:25
GeneralAntilles	Below the dpad	13:25
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jdiaz	yes!	13:25
jdiaz	I have a menu now	13:26
GeneralAntilles	Woo	13:26
GeneralAntilles	Now press home to start USB net	13:26
KotCzarny	by the time he would have clean reflsh already..	13:26
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jdiaz	done	13:26
jdiaz	usb networking mode running	13:26
jdiaz	and usb0 was automagically bring up in the PC	13:27
GeneralAntilles	OK, ssh in from the PC	13:27
sergio	there were some people the other day talking about a problem in Modest	13:27
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GeneralAntilles	The mark-as-read issue, sergio?	13:27
sergio	regarding read/unread status of emails	13:27
sergio	yep	13:27
jdiaz	ssh 192.168.10.1	13:27
sergio	I found the problem :-)	13:27
jdiaz	I get no connection	13:27
jdiaz	ah, sorry	13:28
jdiaz	that was not the correct IP	13:28
sergio	so it'll be fixed in one of the next releases	13:28
GeneralAntilles	192.168.1.15	13:28
GeneralAntilles	Awesome, sergio. It'll make a lot of people happy. ;)	13:28
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sergio	I'll post about it when that bugfix is included in a public release	13:29
GeneralAntilles	Might if I make mention of the fact that a fix is coming on itT, or should I wait?	13:29
sergio	itT?	13:30
GeneralAntilles	s/Might/Mind/	13:30
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: Mind if I make mention of the fact that a fix is coming on itT, or should I wait?	13:30
sergio	what's itT?	13:31
GeneralAntilles	internettablettalk.com	13:31
sergio	ah ok :-)	13:31
GeneralAntilles	http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13029	13:32
sergio	yeah of course	13:32
sergio	it's open source	13:32
GeneralAntilles	Excellent, thanks!	13:32
jdiaz	grr... i have to leave	13:32
jdiaz	and still was unable to connect...	13:32
jdiaz	ifconfig problems, tough, not tablet related	13:33
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, it's PC issues now	13:33
GeneralAntilles	Tablet is ready for you whenever.	13:33
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, well, Nokia's involved. ;) There's always been a little touchiness with pre-release stuff.	13:33
jdiaz	thank you very much	13:33
GeneralAntilles	Sure, let me know how it works out	13:33
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Cptnodegard	gps is phun ^_^	13:37
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b0unc3	good morning	13:45
b0unc3	is there any way to see .ppt files on tablet ?	13:46
X-Fade_	Openoffice? :)	13:47
X-Fade_	There was this post about it being available, but I think it is a resource hog..	13:48
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* KotCzarny wrote a simple script to rip images from .ppt		13:48
KotCzarny	:)	13:48
X-Fade_	Yeah, I think you can also convert them to pdf with openoffice?	13:49
Saviq	yeah, file > save as pdf	13:49
KotCzarny	pdf? save as avi!	13:49
KotCzarny	:)	13:49
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Saviq	right, and that's no resource hog? ;)	13:50
KotCzarny	or even better mpeg2 stream	13:50
KotCzarny	well, you start with .ppt, so why stop in the middle of the fun?	13:50
jdiaz	upload it to google docs	13:50
jdiaz	and use the browser to see it	13:51
jdiaz	(GeneralAntilles, I'm back, but from a different computer without usbnet. I can't continue the recovering process)	13:52
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GeneralAntilles	Well, a straight reflash is always an option at this point. ;)	13:53
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GeneralAntilles	You already backed up your user folder at least.	13:53
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jdiaz	I'll wait until I can continue the recovering process in my office PC	13:55
GeneralAntilles	Alternatively, you could try beating it with a stick until it gives up all of its secrets. :D	13:55
jdiaz	I can also prepare a SD "rescue" card, I guess	13:55
blahdeblah-lap	GeneralAntilles: Is fsck.vfat -fnvV of my SD card on a desktop system a good enough test to prove no corruption?	13:56
GeneralAntilles	Should be, blahdeblah-lap.	13:57
GeneralAntilles	Both cards?	13:57
blahdeblah-lap	Yep	13:57
GeneralAntilles	Well, the only other reproducible thing that causes metalayer to go crazy is recursive symlinks.	13:58
blahdeblah-lap	Are any 3rd party apps known to create them?	13:59
GeneralAntilles	I suppose that's a possibility	13:59
GeneralAntilles	But I don't know of any.	13:59
jdiaz	there exists some kind of "rescue disk" for NIT, which can be copied into the external flash memory, and then used to boot?	14:03
KotCzarny	not yet	14:03
KotCzarny	though you can create copy of your normal os	14:03
KotCzarny	:)	14:03
KotCzarny	and run from it as usual	14:03
jdiaz	only mount, vi, and busybox would be required	14:03
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jdiaz	I only need to edit /etc/passwd!	14:03
GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, you could always stick Debian on an ext2 partition on the card and boot that.	14:04
KotCzarny	then it's included in fanoush initfs	14:04
KotCzarny	i think	14:04
KotCzarny	:)	14:04
Stskeeps	did anyone manage to do usbnet with a windows machine yet, per chance?	14:04
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blahdeblah-lap	GeneralAntilles: Are there any tools to find recursive symlinks?	14:06
GeneralAntilles	metalayer-crawler? :D	14:06
blahdeblah-lap	Well, it's working!	14:06
blahdeblah-lap	This is freaking driving me crazy	14:07
* blahdeblah-lap goes back to the bug 1842 workaround		14:07
GeneralAntilles	Just kill it and move on. :P	14:07
blahdeblah-lap	But every time i reboot it will come back!	14:07
Stskeeps	http://maemo.org/community/wiki/USBnetworkingWinXP/ <- neat :)	14:08
blahdeblah-lap	Hmmm... Bug 1842 doesn't seem to have that workaround - maybe it was another one...	14:08
GeneralAntilles	There's a number of workaround on itT.	14:09
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K-Fox	hi	14:13
K-Fox	fennec browser is fast than microb?	14:14
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GeneralAntilles	Not in practice	14:15
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GeneralAntilles	It's based on a much newer version of Firefox that has a lot of memory and js optimizations	14:16
GeneralAntilles	but Fennec's is pretty slow and broken otherwise right now.	14:16
K-Fox	ok	14:16
GeneralAntilles	MicroB will be merged with trunk for Diablo+1	14:17
GeneralAntilles	Once Fennec and MicroB are inline, then MicroB should be a little faster on the NITs.	14:17
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GeneralAntilles	Ugh: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=183607#post183607	14:48
GeneralAntilles	Like we need more fragmentation on the software front.	14:48
KotCzarny	well, seems like another repo	14:49
KotCzarny	:>	14:49
X-Fade_	I'm biased, so I might want to stay out of this one ;)	14:49
KotCzarny	x-fade: no!	14:50
KotCzarny	:)	14:50
KotCzarny	just kidding	14:50
GeneralAntilles	It seems like a very ill-considered decision. . . .	14:50
GeneralAntilles	What's wrong with setting up some sort of syndication from garage/downloads?	14:50
X-Fade_	GeneralAntilles: Well, without discussion...	14:50
GeneralAntilles	We've already got a perfectly good system in place. . . .	14:50
KotCzarny	well	14:50
KotCzarny	perfectly isn't a good word for it	14:51
KotCzarny	:>	14:51
KotCzarny	well, reading that post it's even worse..	14:52
KotCzarny	it's encouraging users to post their own repos	14:52
KotCzarny	:)	14:52
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hrw	GeneralAntilles: maemo so-called community did not learnt anything from Zaurus guys	15:09
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hrw	GeneralAntilles: Zaurus had many distros and users used even antique ones. lot of fragmentation...	15:09
hrw	GeneralAntilles: now maemo users follow same direction within one distro	15:10
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Sakkath	Will aircrack-ng work on on n800?	15:19
Sakkath	http://mfresh-n800.blogspot.com/2007/08/using-aircrack-ng-suite-on-nokia-n800.html says 'become root'. I don't know the user psasword and it can't be changed with passwd	15:19
hrw	~becameroot	15:20
hrw	~becomeroot	15:20
KotCzarny	~fail	15:20
infobot	Sorry, kotczarny, you have failed.	15:20
Sakkath	ty	15:20
KotCzarny	;)	15:20
KotCzarny	hrw, do you know owner of that bot?	15:20
Sakkath	.	15:21
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Cptnodegard	infobot is i=ibot@pdpc/supporter/active/TimRiker/bot/apt * TimRiker's infobot	15:21
GeneralAntilles	Sakkath, nitapps.com has easyroot	15:21
GeneralAntilles	Just type "root" to gain a root shell once it's installed.	15:21
KotCzarny	cpt: but do you know him?	15:22
Sakkath	ok	15:22
Cptnodegard	no	15:22
KotCzarny	then it's not helping much	15:22
KotCzarny	bots shouldn't run unattended	15:23
hrw	infobot: becomeroot is on Maemo to get root run "sudo gainroot" or dig in maemo.org wiki for proper howto	15:23
infobot	hrw: okay	15:23
hrw	~becomeroot	15:23
infobot	[becomeroot] on Maemo to get root run "sudo gainroot" or dig in maemo.org wiki for proper howto	15:23
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KotCzarny	grammar failed?	15:23
KotCzarny	:)	15:23
GeneralAntilles	infobot, easyroot is an easy way to gain a root shell. http://nitapps.com/dists/chinook/user/binary-armel/easyroot_1.0-4_armel.deb	15:24
infobot	...but easyroot is already something else...	15:24
GeneralAntilles	~easyroot	15:24
infobot	it has been said that easyroot is an easy way to get root access on OS2008 and can be found at http://nitapps.com	15:24
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KotCzarny	infobot: root is to get root look for: easyroot, becomeroot or ssh	15:24
* infobot uses a keylogger to pwnz all is to get root look for: easyroot, becomeroot or ssh 's boxen.		15:24
KotCzarny	o.o	15:25
KotCzarny	~root	15:25
infobot	from memory, root is not a Good Thing to use when using IRC. Please use a different account.	15:25
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KotCzarny	fail.	15:25
KotCzarny	:)	15:25
hrw	KotCzarny: remember that this bot is not only #maemo	15:25
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KotCzarny	hrw: then double fail	15:25
hrw	KotCzarny: maemo suxx anyway	15:25
KotCzarny	hrw: lol	15:25
KotCzarny	hrw: anyway, have you seen my bootmenu?	15:26
KotCzarny	:)	15:26
hrw	KotCzarny: have it installed, never used	15:26
KotCzarny	http://mrrau.dyndns.org:23280/n800/bootmenu/bootmenu-kc-colors.jpg	15:26
KotCzarny	:)	15:26
hrw	KotCzarny: bootmenu suxx when kernel outputs data	15:27
KotCzarny	you can configure it for this	15:27
Sakkath	cal_read_block(r&d_mode): size zero, block not found? Enable RD mode if you want to break your device	15:27
Sakkath	I need pc connection for R&D mode?	15:28
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Sakkath	damn	15:28
hrw	Sakkath: get used to it	15:29
Sakkath	dropbear?	15:29
GeneralAntilles	Sakkath, install easyroot or becomeroot or ssh	15:29
Sakkath	Oh, I can install becomeroot	15:29
Sakkath	I can't connect to wireless atm though, i don't know what's wrong	15:29
Sakkath	'Network connection error' <-- not too verbose	15:29
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RST38h	New Canola is out!	15:33
KotCzarny	yes	15:33
RST38h	[and I am away from my tablet!]	15:33
Cptnodegard	away from your tableT+ o.o	15:34
Cptnodegard	omfg	15:34
Cptnodegard	cruel person	15:34
* RST38h weeps silently		15:34
* Cptnodegard operates a BT device into his arms and makes an app that goes "hi daddy" when connection is made between device and tablet		15:35
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hrw	RST38h: no samba support?	15:38
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Khertan_TheReal	Hi !	15:45
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Khertan	:)	15:47
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kcome	my N810 :P	15:56
kcome	http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20080520008bd1.jpg	15:56
KotCzarny	looks stock	15:57
KotCzarny	;)	15:57
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Blom	FAN!	16:00
Blom	Fajka i alla fall.	16:00
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* RST38h is happy to see that he is not the only one with N810 front panel slightly caved in at the right side		16:09
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RST38h	"A former Gentoo developer yesterday revealed that he has been working on a new hardcore Linux distribution, dubbed Exherbo."	16:22
KotCzarny	lets hope actual distro will be better than name	16:23
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RST38h	[and these people used to trash BSD for "many forks"?]	16:23
KotCzarny	'these' ?	16:23
KotCzarny	it's a one person	16:23
RST38h	Kot: will be another crapload of pseudo-hardcore stuff	16:23
KotCzarny	at least from your citation	16:23
KotCzarny	:)	16:23
KotCzarny	well, for me slacware is quite hardcore	16:24
KotCzarny	;)	16:24
RST38h	Kot: I don't mean this particular guy, I mean the tendency	16:24
GeneralAntilles	Hehe, I know the guy.	16:24
GeneralAntilles	he's no chump	16:24
kulve	"OK, I Want to Try Exherbo	16:24
kulve	No you don't."	16:24
RST38h	GA: Wants to be even more "hardcore" than Slackware? =)	16:24
kulve	"In Conclusion	16:24
kulve	It's not that we hate you (unless we do). It's just that we have nothing to offer you, and you have nothing to offer us."	16:24
KotCzarny	:)	16:24
Veggen	KotCzarny/RST38h: Getting rid of forks like that can't be done without getting rid of some of the creativity surrounding Linux.	16:25
thopiekar	hi @ all	16:25
GeneralAntilles	It's not a "hardcore" epenis issue.	16:25
RST38h	"-- Then why the hell did you write this in the first place?"	16:25
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KotCzarny	'just because he can' ?	16:26
KotCzarny	:)	16:26
RST38h	Veggen: I do not see creativity here. I see people continually repackaging somebody else's work adorned with their own configuration/management/installation/packaging scripts	16:26
trickie_	its not a fork	16:26
GeneralAntilles	It's largely new stuff, actually.	16:26
RST38h	it is another distro	16:26
trickie_	it has some in common from gentoo land	16:26
Veggen	RST38h: but sometimes, someone makes something radically better or in a better way than done before.	16:26
RST38h	Veggen: sometimes yes. very very rarely.	16:26
KotCzarny	name is bad, still	16:27
KotCzarny	:)	16:27
GeneralAntilles	uproot in latin.	16:27
Veggen	RST38h: True, but still - since there is so much interest in Linux, it's not possible to differ between good forks and bad forks like that.	16:27
thopiekar	i've got a problem getting up eth0 of my usb-lan adapter... it is using the asix.ko - module... if i set in the command in the console: ifconfig eth0 up.. my n800 freezes and the screen "crashes"... how can i fix this and get eth0 working??	16:27
RST38h	GA: So, what is this guy uprooting, anyway?	16:27
Veggen	RST38h: THere's noone to tell someone that "this is a bad fork". And sometimes, that's a good thing, because sometimes something that looks bad ends up being the good choice.	16:28
Veggen	In the end, the ability to fork leads to better systems.	16:28
KotCzarny	well	16:28
KotCzarny	in commerce many brands fork	16:28
KotCzarny	just to confuse customers	16:29
KotCzarny	:)	16:29
RST38h	Veggen: with the current number of distros, the first thing that comes to mind is "let's wait until these guys figure out just what exactly Linux is" :)	16:29
KotCzarny	'hey, we've got something new'	16:29
KotCzarny	:)	16:29
Khertan	RST38h > pfff	16:29
KotCzarny	linux is a kernel	16:29
KotCzarny	:)	16:29
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Khertan	lol	16:29
RST38h	And no, as a layman, I will not buy "Linux is a Kernel!" crap ;)	16:29
RST38h	Kot <-- types faster ;)	16:30
KotCzarny	;)	16:30
KotCzarny	unless you talk about linux os	16:30
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KotCzarny	rst: but hey, if i take away all the libs, is it still linux?	16:32
RST38h	"...in related news, a company called Ulteo took a well known public coLinux project and advertises it as 'Ulteo Virtual Desktop'" :)	16:32
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RST38h	Kot: My guess is, it is not Linux unless it works	16:33
KotCzarny	rst: ok, kernel + one static binary	16:33
RST38h	Kot: Which means, you are gonna have kernel, libs, and apps	16:33
KotCzarny	is it linux?	16:33
KotCzarny	:)	16:33
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RST38h	Probably, but do not try selling it to users =)	16:33
KotCzarny	;)	16:33
KotCzarny	why	16:33
KotCzarny	'do one thing, but do it good'	16:33
KotCzarny	;)	16:33
RST38h	like...like...like run BASH!	16:34
KotCzarny	you run, then you bash?	16:34
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RST38h	Kot: you run, then customers bash you	16:34
KotCzarny	you need firewall then	16:34
KotCzarny	burn the bastards	16:35
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czr	just hope they don't install the firewall the wrong way around	16:37
RST38h	Kot: you said ONE binary ;)	16:37
KotCzarny	'fire in the hole' ?	16:37
KotCzarny	;)	16:37
czr	RST38h, one could use the kuserm (or smt like that) that allows you to run executables in kernel, then fuze the initramfs into the kernel image.	16:38
KotCzarny	rst, well, you can always links some firewall.o to your binary	16:38
KotCzarny	:)	16:38
czr	although maybe the latter part would be enough..	16:38
KotCzarny	*link	16:38
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KotCzarny	or load your apps as modules?	16:39
KotCzarny	:>	16:39
RST38h	load them as kernel modules, right	16:39
KotCzarny	that would be fun	16:39
KotCzarny	:>	16:39
RST38h	include GIMP as a kernel module	16:39
GeneralAntilles	Haha	16:39
RST38h	then sell the whole pile as a "new virtualization paradigm"	16:39
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KotCzarny	you can even make them disposable	16:39
KotCzarny	ie. you can even them once	16:39
KotCzarny	then you need new licence	16:40
KotCzarny	:)	16:40
GeneralAntilles	With a monolithic kernel, anything is possible!	16:40
KotCzarny	s/even/load/	16:40
hiho-man	http://xrl.us/bkj9x	16:40
KotCzarny	hiho-man: obscure language	16:40
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* KotCzarny hates spam in foreign languages		16:41
hrw	;)	16:41
KotCzarny	hmm	16:42
KotCzarny	jvm as kernel module	16:42
Khertan	a stupid online game	16:42
KotCzarny	mmm	16:42
KotCzarny	they put it in arm, so why not in kernel?	16:43
Khertan	KotCzarny > kernel module should not eat more that 512Mo of RAM ...	16:43
KotCzarny	should not != can not	16:43
KotCzarny	:)	16:43
KotCzarny	and what unit it is?	16:43
Khertan	yeah of course ... so jvm in a kernel module ...	16:43
KotCzarny	Mega ovums?	16:44
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KotCzarny	:)	16:44
Khertan	arf ... sorry i'm french	16:44
Khertan	Mb	16:44
KotCzarny	Mega bits?	16:44
KotCzarny	:)	16:44
Khertan	i'm a french dev ... which code in a french language ... (4D ... for who know)	16:45
Khertan	so sometimes ... the switch isn't well made ...	16:45
czr	I thought 4D was just time. not a french programming language.	16:45
* czr learns new things		16:45
Khertan	... 4D is it	16:45
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Khertan	http://4d.fr/	16:45
Khertan	:)	16:45
Khertan	it s a rad ...	16:45
czr	adfr?	16:45
KotCzarny	another spam?	16:45
czr	it's like asdfasdf	16:45
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Khertan	4d.com	16:46
Khertan	:)	16:46
KotCzarny	yeah	16:46
KotCzarny	obscure language too	16:46
Khertan	too :)	16:46
czr	with gurgling sounds and stuff?	16:46
Khertan	lol	16:46
czr	gurgle(params)	16:46
KotCzarny	but motto they have in english	16:47
KotCzarny	weirdos	16:47
KotCzarny	:)	16:47
Khertan	what's is funny is that the programming language is available in French, English, Deutsh, and Spain language	16:47
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czr	what. no finnish?	16:47
* czr pities the fools		16:48
KotCzarny	you can translate c names to french too	16:48
KotCzarny	not that it would make much sense	16:48
KotCzarny	:)	16:48
czr	the parser would be much more interesting	16:48
Khertan	and is stored in the file as bytecode ... so you can see a french source code	16:48
czr	french sauce code.	16:48
Khertan	in spain	16:48
KotCzarny	french bytes.. mm	16:48
Khertan	lol	16:48
Khertan	but ... it s bit lazy	16:48
KotCzarny	for lazy projects i like php	16:48
KotCzarny	:)	16:48
Khertan	i prefer goto++	16:49
czr	does it have turtles?	16:49
KotCzarny	goto is to stiff	16:49
KotCzarny	*too	16:49
Khertan	http://www.gotopp.org//index.html.en	16:49
czr	without turtles the language is not useful!	16:49
czr	a language needs to have turtles.	16:49
czr	or snakes	16:49
KotCzarny	snakes on a language?	16:50
czr	"Designed in the middle of the nineties by the scientists of ©NIACsoftware, this brand new method to approach the computer science will change your life! "	16:50
czr	somehow I doubt that sentence..	16:50
Khertan	lol	16:50
czr	KotCzarny, :-)	16:50
Khertan	goto++ (or gotopp) tg	16:51
KotCzarny	available in drug store near you?	16:51
czr	"A new version of the GOTO++ is available! It is the 0.30 version and it adds a lot of bugs, yahoo!"	16:51
Khertan	the best french language	16:51
Khertan	§1	16:51
Khertan	GOTOPRINTDUTEXTE() ; «Hello World !»	16:51
Khertan	GOTO which do nothing	16:51
Khertan	GOTOGOTO() *(1)	16:51
czr	now I know why microsoft wanted to buy yahoo.	16:51
Khertan	yahoo is not french ?	16:51
czr	so that they could migrate all their INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY from VB to Pogo++	16:51
czr	my logic is convoluted,	16:52
czr	"The language has been sligthy modified but the documentation is not entirely up to date, in order to stiffen the transition."	16:52
czr	somehow I get the impression that the dev team of GOTO++ strives to add problems that most other people try to get rid of :-)	16:52
* RST38h liked PERL in Latin more		16:53
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KotCzarny	in piglatin?	16:53
RST38h	more or less	16:53
RST38h	a moment	16:53
Khertan	CreerTortue () :Fenetre	16:53
Khertan	? Tortue	16:53
RST38h	http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html	16:53
Khertan	there is a function CreerTortue ... (in english CreateTurtle)	16:54
czr	sorry but are these people serious? ( http://www.gotopp.org//images/logo10.jpg )	16:54
KotCzarny	did you know that latin was lacking letter 'v' ?	16:54
RST38h	czr: no. did you have to ask?:)	16:54
RST38h	kot: yes	16:54
Khertan		16:54
Khertan	GOTOCHEPA (GOTODONTKNOW)	16:54
Khertan	This command is very similar to GOTOGOTO, the only difference is that it is possible to return to education which follows with a REGOTO.	16:54
Khertan	It is possible to recover the value returned by REGOTO.	16:54
czr	RST38h, long day.. I've lost my humour :-)	16:55
RST38h	Kot: it was lacking U actually	16:55
RST38h	Use V for U	16:55
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KotCzarny	or other way round	16:55
Khertan	this is not a serious language ... but it work	16:55
KotCzarny	:)	16:55
Khertan	there is binding for gtk	16:55
RST38h	Check the nearest courthouse in the US for confirmation	16:55
Khertan	and a real compiler	16:55
disq	ooh grumby is good	16:55
KotCzarny	rst, yeah, i know	16:55
Khertan	but i ll never use this ...	16:55
RST38h	those places usually have thoughtful latin inscriptions at the front	16:55
czr	Khertan, does it compile itself?	16:55
czr	Khertan, it's not a real compiler otherwise.	16:55
Khertan	i think no ...	16:56
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czr	RST38h, like "HEE HEE, NO ONE WILL EVER BOTHER TRANSLATING THIS ANYWAY"	16:56
czr	in latin it will sound profound.	16:56
KotCzarny	or 'KEEP RIGHT'	16:56
KotCzarny	maybe in 3000 years some guys would find ruins of our civilization	16:57
RST38h	and be puzzled	16:57
czr	damn, I knew one day a book that I have would become handy	16:57
czr	"Pulle! Visne Frustum?"	16:57
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Khertan	http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ook	16:57
czr	(Polly want a cracker? in Latin)	16:57
RST38h	Plastic Ronald McDonald statues would probably generate the biggest amount of scholarly papers	16:57
czr	or: Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!	16:58
czr	(May faulty logic undermine your entire philosophy!)	16:58
KotCzarny	:)	16:58
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GeneralAntilles	The idols of our civilization, RST38h? :D	16:59
czr	Foras gradiamur (Let's step outside)	16:59
RST38h	GA: Most likely	16:59
KotCzarny	well, plastic is edible	17:00
KotCzarny	:)	17:00
RST38h	Would probably qualify as a minor deity local to thenorthwestern indochina	17:00
czr	videris humilor seniorque coram	17:01
czr	it sounds profound, I tell you	17:01
czr	(You look shorter and older in person)	17:01
GeneralAntilles	Ha	17:01
RST38h	If Ronald is lucky, he may even be considered a God of Pedophilia	17:02
KotCzarny	unlikely	17:02
KotCzarny	more like god of bad diet	17:03
RST38h	With all those pictures of Him with children? With that Smile?	17:03
RST38h	Well, hamburgers won't survive into that time, but advertising materials will	17:03
KotCzarny	paper is edible too	17:03
RST38h	Everything is edible under certain circumstances =)	17:03
KotCzarny	yes	17:04
RST38h	Forget the Ronald though, the really big question is what archeologists would think of all those iPod docks.	17:05
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KotCzarny	there would be no music on them	17:05
KotCzarny	by that time	17:05
RST38h	no iPods either	17:05
KotCzarny	iNtropia	17:06
RST38h	They would probably not be classified to be the same kind of device, with all those shapes	17:06
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KotCzarny	that depends if aliens profile us already	17:06
RST38h	Would look like somebody sticking weird sockets into household items	17:06
lopz	morning	17:07
KotCzarny	stick it in a hole	17:07
RST38h	It does not: an iPod dock has not constant shape, so whatever aliens think of us, they would have to figure out that all those pieces of plastic srve the same function	17:07
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czr	"it must be some kind of device where these things plugged themselves to watch simulporn"	17:07
KotCzarny	it's shiny	17:08
KotCzarny	:)	17:08
czr	right. "shiny simulporn"	17:08
KotCzarny	it has a button	17:09
czr	to join/detach from the session obviously.	17:09
KotCzarny	death ray	17:10
KotCzarny	well, maybe not originals	17:10
czr	or. maybe. "Summon Dragon"	17:10
RST38h	Kot: You reminded me	17:10
KotCzarny	but some chinese models have it	17:10
RST38h	Forget McDonalds. Forget iPod docks.	17:10
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RST38h	What about StarWars light saber replicas?	17:11
czr	heh	17:11
KotCzarny	plastic	17:11
KotCzarny	edible	17:11
RST38h	If you were an archeologist, what would you say of THAT	17:11
czr	RST38h, piece of some fancy exhaust piping system?	17:11
KotCzarny	rst: do they vibrate?	17:11
KotCzarny	:)	17:11
KotCzarny	they are just dildos for boys	17:11
KotCzarny	psychological dildos	17:12
KotCzarny	:)	17:12
KotCzarny	spaceballs	17:13
KotCzarny	:)	17:13
RST38h	I agree with Kot on dildo function	17:13
KotCzarny	that reminds me, http://imagechan.net/img/5512/Wrong%20convention/	17:14
KotCzarny	:)	17:14
RST38h	Ewoks!	17:15
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KotCzarny	heh	17:17
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jdiaz	back	17:19
jdiaz	GeneralAntilles, are you still here?	17:19
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	17:19
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jdiaz	hi	17:20
jdiaz	I finally got the usb network connection	17:20
jdiaz	I'm root now. How is named the device which represents the old root filesystem?	17:21
KotCzarny	/dev/mtdblock4	17:21
KotCzarny	probably	17:21
KotCzarny	:)	17:21
jdiaz	thanks	17:21
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GeneralAntilles	The mount command is in fanoush's readme file.	17:21
jdiaz	oops... the tablet shut down	17:21
jdiaz	probably too much time without activity?	17:22
jdiaz	but I had a telnet connection established...	17:22
KotCzarny	maybe watchdog	17:22
KotCzarny	:)	17:22
KotCzarny	or accidental ctrl-d	17:22
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jdiaz	mount /dev/mtdblock4 /mnt/new_root/	17:23
jdiaz	doesnt work	17:23
jdiaz	Invalid argument	17:23
GeneralAntilles	mount -t jffs2 /dev/mtdblock4 /tmp/mnt	17:24
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jdiaz	yeah	17:24
jdiaz	ok, mounted, and /etc/passwd edited	17:25
RST38h	Holographic Bill Gates terrorizes Kuala Lumpur tech conference	17:25
jdiaz	rebooting noe	17:25
jdiaz	now	17:25
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RST38h	The crowd cheered -- or screamed in terror -- as the giant 4.6-meter holographic specter assured them that technology is, in fact, the future.	17:25
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KotCzarny	future terror has a bright future?	17:26
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jdiaz	GA done. /etc/passwd and /etc/sudoers fixed	17:28
GeneralAntilles	Woo	17:28
jdiaz	:D	17:28
GeneralAntilles	Only took 2 hours. :D	17:28
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jdiaz	naah, you are also counting 1:30h for launch	17:29
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jdiaz	one minor problem remains, now after each reboot, the tablet keeps asking me the date and time	17:29
KotCzarny	now you are prepared for some serious breakages	17:29
jdiaz	probably something in linuxrc	17:29
* qwerty12 is surprised 31 people actually downloaded upstart		17:29
pupnik_	testing the camera, GeneralAntilles	17:30
GeneralAntilles	Cool	17:30
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qwerty12	jdiaz, Not in linuxrc. Linuxrc is for the initfs. After linuxrc mounts rootfs on /, control is gone.	17:30
jdiaz	can I freely edit /mnt/initrc scripts?	17:30
qwerty12	jdiaz, no	17:30
* RST38h wonders why nobody has used camera as a cheapo replacement fo accelerometer yet		17:30
KotCzarny	why no?	17:30
pupnik_	great idea RST38h	17:31
qwerty12	Not straight from /mnt/initfs iirc	17:31
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jdiaz	hmmm... then why the tablet ask me the date, if all what was modified was initrc?	17:31
KotCzarny	rst: because camera is crappy?	17:31
RST38h	Kot: does not matter	17:31
qwerty12	Unless you are doing it through bootmenu :/	17:31
qwerty12	jdiaz, what did you change?	17:31
RST38h	It will do for computing visual flow	17:31
RST38h	and theless pixels - the better	17:31
KotCzarny	rst: well, if you want to compute noise flow	17:31
KotCzarny	:)	17:31
RST38h	it's not that bad, although you MAY need to wear a striped tshirt to play =)	17:32
KotCzarny	not to mention i only managed mplayer/mencoder to work with it	17:32
RST38h	there should be interface that lets you download the current image	17:32
KotCzarny	none other v4l[12] app wanted to grab	17:32
jdiaz	I installed fanoush initrc	17:32
KotCzarny	ie, they can set mode, params	17:32
RST38h	you do not need a v4l app, just direct access to the image and some highly optimized math	17:33
KotCzarny	but actual read from fd fails with 'invalid argument'	17:33
RST38h	lemme check	17:33
KotCzarny	rst: how do i grab data from webcam then?	17:33
jdiaz	no, wait... fanoush initrc has nothing to do here...	17:33
RST38h	checking	17:33
qwerty12	jdiaz, That's it? i've been using bootmenu fine. I even added it in manually off a computer for the diablo initfs which it doesn't support officially yet.	17:33
KotCzarny	working example would be nice	17:33
qwerty12	I just saw new msg.	17:33
KotCzarny	:)	17:33
jdiaz	GeneralAntilles used fanoush initrc in order to create an initrc jffs2 image	17:34
jdiaz	he gave the image to me	17:34
jdiaz	I flashed it using nokia flasher	17:34
GeneralAntilles	initfs	17:34
jdiaz	that is	17:34
jdiaz	initfs	17:34
jdiaz	now, when I boot, I have a boot menu	17:34
qwerty12	You can make an fanoush initfs image off the device.	17:34
RST38h	Kot: http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/4-x/how_to_use_camera_api.html	17:34
GeneralAntilles	But not without root access, qwerty12. ;)	17:34
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RST38h	Using GStreamer for it is atrocious though	17:34
KotCzarny	checking	17:34
jdiaz	yes, but I was unable because I'd lost root access	17:35
Khertan	someone have try mCalendar ?	17:35
qwerty12	GeneralAntilles, Ahh, I see. My bad.	17:35
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qwerty12	KotCzarny, Applying your colour mod now :)	17:35
RST38h	Kot: you do nt need the jpeg stuff	17:35
qwerty12	With fb_update mode.	17:35
RST38h	Kot: And if you really want to know how to compute motion flow, let me know	17:35
KotCzarny	rst: you call using gstreamer direct access?	17:35
jdiaz	now, when I boot from internal flash, all looks as ever, but a dialog appears asking me the date	17:35
RST38h	Kot: I call it available access.	17:36
jdiaz	hm	17:36
RST38h	Sometimes, you have to do with whatever [shit] you are given	17:36
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KotCzarny	:)	17:36
trickie_	jdiaz: maybe you need to set the hardware clock	17:36
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KotCzarny	i would prefer mencoder then	17:36
jdiaz	perhaps some datetime skew between the files GA provided me, and my own clock	17:36
jdiaz	?	17:36
KotCzarny	jdiaz: flash your original initfs now ?	17:37
RST38h	Kot: I am currently checking if more direct approach is possible	17:37
KotCzarny	rst: it certainly is	17:37
KotCzarny	rst: mencoder just grabs /dev/video0	17:37
jdiaz	how can I obtain my original initfs now?	17:37
KotCzarny	jdiaz: you made a backup, didn't you?	17:37
RST38h	Kot: http://www.thedirks.org/v4l2/v4l2cap.htm	17:37
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jdiaz	no, I was unable. I'd lost root access	17:37
RST38h	You will need to do a few ioctl()s before being able to read	17:37
jdiaz	that was the only way to regain root access, indeed	17:38
RST38h	QUERYCAP is probably a must on Maemo - that is why everybody but mencoder fails reading it	17:38
KotCzarny	rst, i know, and as i said, i have tried normal v4l[12] apps	17:38
qwerty12	jdiaz, You can extract it using flasher.	17:38
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GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, just grab the FIASCO image from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N810.php	17:38
qwerty12	I've got an Chinook original initfs on my desktop if you want it?	17:38
KotCzarny	qwerty: to olate	17:38
qwerty12	KotCzarny, Why?	17:39
GeneralAntilles	then: ./flasher-3.0-static -F <FIASCO bin> --flash-only=initfs -R	17:39
KotCzarny	qwerty: too late for making a backup from an already overwritten one :)	17:39
jdiaz	well, in fact I do prefer this initfs, because of the usbnetwork rescue mode	17:40
qwerty12	KotCzarny, I'm not saying to make a backup :/	17:40
jdiaz	only that dialog about the date/time annoys me a bit	17:40
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KotCzarny	qwerty: it's late here, sorry if i say anything stupid :)	17:40
GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, alternatively you can download fanoush's initfs flasher onto the device and setup the bootmenu.conf how you want it.	17:40
qwerty12	KotCzarny, No worries :)	17:40
jdiaz	anyway, the suggested date time is always correct. All what I need to do is to hit the "OK"	17:40
qwerty12	jdiaz, Edit it out of the init script :/. osso-af-init handles it somewhere.	17:41
GeneralAntilles	jdiaz, yeah, I don't have a clue as to why that's popping up.	17:41
qwerty12	jdiaz, here's another idea. set the hardware clock using retutime	17:41
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qwerty12	/mnt/initfs/usr/bin/retutime --get-time-from-system	17:42
qwerty12	or somehting like that :p	17:42
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trickie_	/mnt/initfs/usr/bin/retutime --rtc-from-system	17:43
qwerty12	That's it :)	17:43
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jdiaz	ok, the command was run	17:44
jdiaz	no output	17:45
jdiaz	I'll reboot	17:45
jdiaz	worked!	17:46
qwerty12	Cool :)	17:46
GeneralAntilles	Actually, now that I think about it, maybe N800/N810 thing?	17:46
jdiaz	n810	17:46
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GeneralAntilles	Yeah, it was generated on an N800.	17:46
qwerty12	Doesn't matter. linuxrc checks to see which RX it is running off.	17:47
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KotCzarny	rst: yeah, that may be the reason, ie. read() vs mmap()	17:48
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KotCzarny	mplayer uses mmap	17:48
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RST38h	My guess is read() will work as well	17:49
RST38h	when you send right ioctls up front	17:49
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* jdiaz is documenting the whole odisea		17:49
KotCzarny	rst: which one?	17:50
RST38h	Dunno	17:50
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RST38h	I am looking at this thing for the first time	17:50
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RST38h	Would try with gstreamer first as the method of obtaining video is not important for a prototype	17:51
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sparr_	whats the best route if i forget the startup passcode for my 770?	17:52
qwerty12	burn it	17:52
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KotCzarny	hit it with a hammer	17:52
qwerty12	I don't know if powerlaunch with powertool runs on 770	17:52
KotCzarny	what's the startup passcode?	17:52
qwerty12	sparr_, Do you have fanoush bootmenu installed? Are you trying to get the code for fun or has your 770 locked you out?	17:53
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sparr_	no. locked out.	17:55
beford	now that somebody is talking about the lock code, what's the default code?	17:55
sparr_	and its not mine, its a friend of a friends	17:55
KotCzarny	12345 ?	17:55
johnx	beford, 12345 I think	17:56
* beford tries		17:56
KotCzarny	can be found in config partition	17:56
RST38h	All right, one more patch and I am going home	17:56
K-Fox	what is port of rdesktop?	17:56
qwerty12	I've never figured out how to retrieve it from config. I ran cat on the config partition and never saw the number :/	17:56
K-Fox	port number	17:57
qwerty12	check www.portforward.com	17:57
beford	that worked, thanks	17:57
KotCzarny	rst: to your beloved n8x0 ?	17:58
RST38h	somthing like that	17:58
RST38h	so sodomize it with Canola	17:58
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KotCzarny	btw. max for camera is 16fps at 352x288	17:59
qwerty12	I plug USB cables into the N800 but I draw the line at sodomizing it...	17:59
KotCzarny	*4 or /4 depending on res	17:59
RST38h	Kot: what is the min?	17:59
RST38h	Only need the min	17:59
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KotCzarny	176x144 worked	17:59
KotCzarny	haven't tried smaller	17:59
RST38h	enough	17:59
qwerty12	176x144 is max resolution of video on my phone :/	18:00
RST38h	qwerty<-- owns a pre-S60e3 phone	18:00
KotCzarny	i should get me some sleep	18:00
* KotCzarny owns s60v1 phone		18:00
* RST38h also had one		18:01
* qwerty12 smashed up S60v1		18:01
KotCzarny	n-gage	18:01
RST38h	Actually, two, 7650 and 3650	18:01
qwerty12	I have W810 - ENEA OSE, P1i - Symbian 9.1 UIQ3 and N80 - Symbian 9.1 S60v3	18:01
RST38h	7650 was a real brick, pretty much like N95 now	18:01
qwerty12	I used to have N-Gage but I smashed it up.	18:01
RST38h	N80 is cool	18:01
qwerty12	My friend has 7650, started taking the piss out of him.	18:01
qwerty12	It's a brick :p	18:02
qwerty12	I just carry the W810 and P1i. (with n800 ofc)	18:02
RST38h	two at the same time?	18:02
RST38h	AND n800?	18:02
KotCzarny	:)	18:02
qwerty12	Yeah, my school blazer has pockets :p	18:02
KotCzarny	and probably a bunch of other stuff	18:02
sparr_	once pandora comes out (http://openpandora.org/) ill be able to ditch all my other handhelds... will be sad to see my gp2x and n770 go, but my pockets will thank me	18:03
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beford	I have a w810 too and got me the n810 this week :P	18:03
KotCzarny	what's the price estimate on pandora?	18:03
GeneralAntilles	Soooo ugly. :shudder:	18:03
pupnik	Ok i finally got basically decent recording from the N810 screen http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HJHXMKQY (duke nukem)	18:04
RST38h	sparr: don't hold your breath though	18:04
sparr_	RST38h: why?	18:04
sparr_	KotCzarny: $500 if the dollar keeps going the way it is... was less when i first heard about it	18:04
qwerty12	£250 is too expensive.	18:05
sparr_	about $350 today	18:05
qwerty12	I bought my PSP for less.	18:05
RST38h	sparr: Small company, ugly prototype	18:05
sparr_	that's £199	18:05
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RST38h	either burns through funds before it reaches product quality OR shortly thereafter	18:05
sparr_	ugly prototype? the prototype doesnt even have a case yet, of course its ugly	18:05
KotCzarny	hmm	18:05
KotCzarny	350$ for omap3 ?	18:05
KotCzarny	and the open one ?	18:05
* RST38h has seen it in a case - the ugly boxy one, with qwerty keyboard		18:05
mysc	KotC, you were right, the n810 is not worth the extra $$ over the n800	18:05
sparr_	or are you talking about the case in the photo? that's not even a prototype yet	18:06
RST38h	see?	18:06
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qwerty12	If it's better than N900, I'll go for the Pandora. I bet N900 will still be closed. Usually, I wouldn't give a shit but I've seen what happens with N800 with closed source stuff.	18:06
KotCzarny	:)	18:06
RST38h	Anyways. I would rather wait 6 more months for Nokia to switch to OMAP3	18:06
KotCzarny	unless n900 come with all libs	18:07
mysc	n900 is already being talked about?	18:07
KotCzarny	and everything going at high performance	18:07
sparr_	im a big gamer, i cant buy another handheld without gaming controls. playing even simple stuff on nokia's handhelds is annoying	18:07
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pupnik	pandora is a fairly heroic effort by a dedicated tiny team with very little money	18:07
GeneralAntilles	Since at least last year, mysc.	18:07
RST38h	sparr: buy a nokia phone	18:07
K-Fox2	when n900 is out?	18:07
mysc	GA, i thought it was ppl thinking the wimax was the 900 :)	18:07
KotCzarny	rst: or psp?	18:07
KotCzarny	:)	18:07
RST38h	pupnik: which is a delicate way to say "doomed to failure" :)	18:07
GeneralAntilles	No, mysc.	18:08
RST38h	Kot: PSP is way too closed	18:08
johnx	K-Fox2, everytime you ask it gets delayed by a year	18:08
qwerty12	PSP pwns for games. I'd use mine more if the joystick wasn't broken.	18:08
KotCzarny	rst: but has commercial, dedicated games	18:08
KotCzarny	:)	18:08
GeneralAntilles	It has always been clear that the WiMAX tablet was just going to be an existing tablet with WiMAX	18:08
mysc	have any of you played with installing ubuntu on the n8x0?	18:08
pupnik	RST38h: financially it is quite risky, yes.	18:08
johnx	mysc, no. just debian.	18:08
GeneralAntilles	Except, maybe, to some idiots who made a stupid article about Nokia's "iPhone Killer"	18:08
RST38h	Kot: At $50+ a pop, they will have to find somebody else to buy it	18:08
qwerty12	m33	18:09
* qwerty12 walks away...		18:09
mysc	johnx, heard of the mojo group?	18:09
RST38h	Kot: Albeit in Moscow you can easily buy a hacked PSP	18:09
KotCzarny	rst: any games you can get for n8x0 ?	18:09
johnx	mysc, yeah.	18:09
sparr_	RST38h: i really don't want all the hoopla in a phone	18:09
RST38h	Kot: yea, I have got some	18:09
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* RST38h does not play fancy 3d stuff anyway so psp isn't very important for him		18:10
sparr_	KotCzarny: "commercial dedicated games" are overrated. ill take my gp2x with 20000 snes/nes/sms/genesis/neogeo games on it over a nds with a few dozen "commercial dedicated games"	18:10
RST38h	Less important than ability to run gcc	18:10
hrw	mysc: the problem with non-maemo systems is that they have to rely on maemo anyway	18:10
KotCzarny	gp2x: 20000 games are stolen	18:10
KotCzarny	:>	18:10
mysc	johnx, do you have an 800 or 810?	18:10
johnx	n800	18:10
mysc	hrw, yes and no...nokia is incorporating qt in addition to hildon.	18:10
sparr_	let's not have a discussion about abadonware. to each their own.	18:10
KotCzarny	there is no such thing as abandonware (law wise)	18:11
KotCzarny	:)	18:11
mysc	johnx, would you consider the n810 or paying double for bad gps is not worth it :)	18:11
hrw	mysc: show me non-maemo distro for n8x0 which will have working wifi, bt, sound, battery and will not use components from maemo	18:11
RST38h	KILL, my little lawyers, KILL!	18:11
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* qwerty12 is dreaming but I would like to try rockbox on my N800. Need something that feels like a proper mp3 player (except canola)		18:11
johnx	mysc, it depends on how much you want a built in keyboard and a sunlight viewable screen	18:11
pupnik	just did some xterm in full sunlight	18:12
pupnik	with backlight all the way down - amazingly good	18:12
hrw	mysc: I bought n810 because it has hw keyboard.	18:12
RST38h	hrw: a mediocre keyboard	18:12
KotCzarny	yeah, the screen i could fall for	18:12
mysc	the kb is nice, but to be honest, i rather plug in a usb kb or a bt kb	18:12
hrw	RST38h: but keyboard	18:12
RST38h	E70 phone has better keyboard then N810	18:12
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hrw	RST38h: but is not armv6 linux powered device?	18:13
qwerty12	http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/images/e70_tot8.jpg	18:13
sparr_	KotCzarny: not entirely true... some copyrights are truly abandoned, the entities that held them having ceased to exist without transferring them. but, that point aside, if a company is not willing to sell me their software, then i have no problem "stealing" it	18:13
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mysc	if you're gonna do serious typing the hw kb on 810 is not good. if you're not then the on screen is enough	18:13
RST38h	hrw: it is symbian	18:13
KotCzarny	yeah, e70	18:13
KotCzarny	but 5510 was first	18:13
KotCzarny	;)	18:13
johnx	mysc, if you want to use IM or IRC the onscreen keyboard is annoying	18:14
RST38h	Kot: true, but no programmable platform	18:14
KotCzarny	rst: not true	18:14
qwerty12	Java isn't really great on S40 phones.	18:14
patoh	and s40 phones love to crash	18:14
GeneralAntilles	johnx, it's not that bad. :P	18:14
KotCzarny	rst: http://nokix.pasjagsm.pl/?type=intro&lang=en	18:14
glass	on midp2(and midp1) textboxes etc gui building is pretty primitive	18:15
mysc	johnx, it doesn't justify the $200+ though	18:15
KotCzarny	rexx on 5510	18:15
glass	hard to make good looking/feeling stuff	18:15
KotCzarny	(and few others ;)	18:15
johnx	GeneralAntilles, the bad part isn't typing, it's that it takes over the whole screen	18:15
RST38h	urgh	18:15
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RST38h	Rexx.	18:15
hrw	mysc: to tell the truth none of nokia tablets is fine device	18:15
RST38h	Java.	18:15
qwerty12	java sucks.	18:15
johnx	mysc, right. so the N800 would be better for you then	18:15
RST38h	sucks moose balls	18:15
hrw	each of them has ugly parts but also each has some good parts (except 770 which has only one)	18:16
mysc	johnx, yeah, i mean ima gonna irc from it, i'll just use one of those nice igo bt kb's	18:16
qwerty12	lol, "Warning Maybe NSFW => Naked RX-48"	18:16
KotCzarny	mysc: be aware that bt kb is laggy	18:16
sparr_	RST38h: is this the case you think is ugly? http://openpandora.org/bigone.jpg	18:16
KotCzarny	on my n800 at least	18:16
johnx	mysc, that will work fine as long as you're sitting somewhere	18:16
GeneralAntilles	Just gotta type faster, johnx. :P	18:17
mysc	yeah, laggy and also can fall prey to timing attacks	18:17
GeneralAntilles	Spend as little time there as possible. ;)	18:17
hrw	bye	18:17
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KotCzarny	hmm	18:17
KotCzarny	that pandora box will be a hand killer	18:17
KotCzarny	with those sharp corners sticking into palms	18:17
mysc	are there any other cheap linux-on-pda alternatives?	18:17
KotCzarny	mysc: zaurus?	18:18
KotCzarny	:)	18:18
mysc	is that sharp?	18:18
qwerty12	Is there any other port of doom rather than INdT's one?	18:18
sparr_	KotCzarny: you never spent 8 hours with a NES controller in your hand did you?	18:18
KotCzarny	probably	18:18
KotCzarny	sparr: nope	18:18
johnx	yeah. it's also discontinued	18:18
sparr_	those "sharp" corners don't really matter	18:18
mysc	ah, smallish screen, right?	18:18
KotCzarny	sparr: not true	18:18
johnx	sparr_, the render has really sharp looking corners	18:19
sparr_	johnx: the one i just linked?	18:19
johnx	sp3000, yes. I doubt they'll do that for the real product of course	18:19
mysc	i shoulda gotten an n800 when the prices hit bottom some weeks ago...instead got an 810 and now the 800s have gone back up in price	18:19
*** sparr_ is now known as sparr		18:19
johnx	the zaurus screen isn't that small...but it is smaller than the n800/n810	18:20
johnx	sparr, look at the edges on the left and right side of the keyboard where they curve up to a knife edge	18:20
KotCzarny	http://www.dcemu.co.uk/dcemupandora.jpg	18:20
sparr	johnx: ahh	18:21
qwerty12	eww. looks ugly :/. Seeing dcemu reminds me of my dreamcast :(	18:21
sparr	that render is old	18:21
sparr	KotCzarny: ^^	18:21
* johnx misses his dreamcast :/		18:21
sparr	johnx: they should probably curve them more, youre right.	18:21
KotCzarny	but gives some impression about possibilities	18:21
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johnx	sparr, I'm sure they will for the actual production	18:22
KotCzarny	newer render has sharper edges	18:22
sparr	newer render has better keyboard	18:22
KotCzarny	some rubber could fix it though	18:22
sparr	the neat thing about sharp corners on a prototype... they can be fixed without fancy tools :)	18:22
mysc	can any of you do a screenshot of an xterm on an n800 with the onscreen kb on? (both the full finger and the small one made for the stylus)?	18:23
johnx	yeah, just a file and 20 minutes :)	18:23
KotCzarny	johnx: or a can of silicone	18:23
KotCzarny	:)	18:23
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johnx	mysc, well the fullscreen keyboard looks the same in all apps	18:23
GeneralAntilles	^	18:23
GeneralAntilles	Exactly the same as the screenshot I gave you before. :P	18:23
mysc	johnx, about 50% of the screen?	18:23
sparr	mysc: on my 770 i preferred to use the terminal with the transparent keyboard	18:24
qwerty12	mysc, full finger looks same everywhere	18:24
johnx	mysc, the fullscreen keyboard takes the whole screen	18:24
KotCzarny	770 had a transparent osk?	18:24
qwerty12	There was xterm build	18:24
KotCzarny	hmm hmm	18:24
mysc	whole screen? eek	18:24
johnx	thus "full" "screen" "keyboard"	18:24
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GeneralAntilles	mysc, http://www.sense-datum.org/tim/images/xterm.jpg	18:24
mysc	is the small kb the same as the 810's about 40-45% of screen?	18:24
GeneralAntilles	mysc, you saw my screenshot. . . .	18:24
qwerty12	OWW. Bad colour scheme.	18:25
GeneralAntilles	http://www.legacyoflies.com/devuploads/general_antilles/maemofingerkeyboard.jpg	18:25
sparr	http://dastych.sh.cvut.cz/~jtra/download/maemo/xterm/xterm-screenshot-1.png	18:25
* KotCzarny hates black-on-white		18:25
mysc	GA, ah nice. that's the small kb, like the 810s. yours GA was bigger and transparent	18:25
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qwerty12	sparr, nice	18:25
GeneralAntilles	Not transparent.	18:25
sparr	that's translucent, it has a mode where the keys are invisible, just letters	18:25
mysc	do you have to patch xterm for this functionality?	18:26
sparr	i liked that one because the keyboard could be hidden/unhidden/moved without affecting the size/shape of the terminal window	18:26
KotCzarny	sparr: try xvkbd	18:26
KotCzarny	:)	18:26
qwerty12	The source is available. Anyone want to integrate it into the current xterm?	18:26
KotCzarny	i have to add enter for hildonized apps though :/	18:26
mysc	do you have a garage for this Kot?	18:28
KotCzarny	mysc: yes, on my laptop	18:28
KotCzarny	hehe	18:28
KotCzarny	:)	18:28
mysc	hah	18:28
mysc	so what's the best translucent virt kb that'll work on the latest set of apps (os 08) ?	18:28
KotCzarny	mysc: try googling for n800 xvkbd	18:28
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mysc	oh one pet peeve: if i input using handwriting in xterm i can't do words... so "hello" quickly yields "hhehelhellhello"	18:30
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mysc	sparr, is the one you showed out for os2008?	18:32
sparr	i dont think so	18:32
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qwerty12	Source is there though. Anyone willing to add it into current xterm? I may try and fail sometime.	18:32
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KotCzarny	qwerty: link?	18:34
johnx	Khertan, installing mcalendar right now :)	18:34
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qwerty12	http://dastych.sh.cvut.cz/~jtra/download/maemo/xterm/	18:34
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qwerty12	Keyboard is just python program, my guess xterm runs it on opening.	18:35
KotCzarny	i'm interested in transluency	18:36
mysc	can you go back to standard kb after installing that qwerty?	18:36
qwerty12	mysc, You should be able to, just install libvte and osso-xterm from the svn.	18:37
Khertan	argggg g!!! g!gg! !g g!g still looking why my icon isn't show in the taskbar !	18:37
mysc	i meant on the fly flipping between kb styles	18:37
qwerty12	No idea, that isn't even for OS2008 anyway.	18:38
qwerty12	I've never had a 770 to try it on.	18:38
patoh	Away	18:38
patoh	oops	18:38
Khertan	someone know if their is somewhere a thing where i can get error on a .desktop at launch or other things like .services	18:38
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Khertan	s/error/error log	18:38
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qwerty12	Maybe launch the program with dbus-send, but not sure on how to do it.	18:38
johnx	Khertan, I guess I'm missing sqlite for python. Any idea where to get it?	18:38
mysc	hrmmm, i guess you could become a pro with thumb typing on the stylus kb :)	18:39
GeneralAntilles	It's not bad, actually, mysc.	18:39
johnx	I guess my thumbs are too big :/	18:39
mysc	just have to file away the sides of your thumbs with some sandpaper :>	18:39
GeneralAntilles	Use the tips of your thumbs	18:39
GeneralAntilles	/nail	18:39
KotCzarny	johnx, stick something to your thumbs	18:39
GeneralAntilles	Pads don't work for that. ;)	18:40
KotCzarny	maybe thinble?	18:40
KotCzarny	thimble	18:40
mysc	hah	18:40
johnx	I'll stick to using the fullscreen keyboard...	18:40
mysc	the new market for thimbles, old women who sew and young geeks who irc on n800 :>	18:40
* qwerty12 never uses fullscreen keyboard		18:40
johnx	I'll just keep irc'ing on the zaurus :P	18:40
GeneralAntilles	Why, qwerty?	18:41
GeneralAntilles	The fullscreen keyboard is great.	18:41
Khertan	johnx > it s not in the python2.5-runtime ?	18:41
mysc	johnx, what zaurus do you have and what linux is on it?	18:41
KotCzarny	full laptop keyboard is great	18:41
KotCzarny	:)	18:41
Khertan	oups ... so it seems i should add some depandancy ...	18:41
qwerty12	GeneralAntilles, Because I prefer to see the program and I'm too used to the small keyboard now.	18:41
johnx	mysc, C1000 w/ angstrom on SD and Debian on USB	18:41
johnx	Khertan, one sec	18:41
mysc	do they still sell the zaurus' ?	18:42
johnx	they don't make it	18:42
johnx	I think you can find leftover stock or a used model	18:42
Khertan	johnx : http://david.hautbois.free.fr/joomla/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=28&func=fileinfo&id=5	18:43
mysc	johnx how does it compare to nokia	18:43
Khertan	mysc > no integrated wifi	18:43
Khertan	and using an card sucks battery power	18:43
Khertan	it s the main differences for me	18:43
johnx	mysc, nice keyboard, good open source linux support, but half the RAM, half the flash, slower CPU, less idle time	18:43
johnx	the formfactor is nice and solid	18:44
mysc	ah, i see.	18:44
johnx	the lack of built in wifi and bluetooth is kind of a PITA though	18:44
mysc	what do you need a usb->wifi adaptor?	18:44
johnx	compactflash wifi is the only reasonable way	18:44
johnx	usb wifi would need a powered hub	18:44
KotCzarny	and a lot of power	18:45
KotCzarny	:)	18:45
johnx	eh...not a lot	18:45
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johnx	just 2 nimh AAs would be fine I think	18:45
KotCzarny	i have yet to see a card with lower than 500mA spec	18:45
johnx	but they don't use that all the time	18:46
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KotCzarny	probably	18:46
KotCzarny	but it won't be 100mA too	18:46
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johnx	well of course not	18:46
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johnx	hmm...maybe 4 AAs would be better...anyways the point is, once you involve an external hub it's not really mobile any more	18:47
KotCzarny	johnx: backpack	18:48
KotCzarny	:)	18:48
mysc	so you all would not hesistate to recommend the 800? cause i am having trouble justifying a higher pricetag on the n810	18:48
johnx	yeah, just toss a couple car batteries back there, run some low guage wire up over your back...	18:49
KotCzarny	johnx: yup	18:49
KotCzarny	:)	18:49
Khertan	johnx> pysqlite for maemo : http://tinyurl.com/5rms6w	18:49
KotCzarny	weeks of fun	18:49
KotCzarny	:)	18:49
johnx	Khertan, thanks	18:49
johnx	Khertan, you might want to add that as a dependency, then :)	18:49
Khertan	this is the one build by Tahitibob ...	18:49
Khertan	yes i ll do it ...	18:50
Khertan	first report :)	18:50
unixSnob	Any Australians or Belgians in here?	18:50
* unixSnob would like to know if Australia or Belgium have per diem for traveling contractors		18:50
johnx	mysc, what do you want it for? hacking around in linux? web surfing? PIM?	18:50
Khertan	what the link between Australians and Belgian ?	18:50
unixSnob	khertan - no link.. I may work in either of those countries soon	18:51
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KotCzarny	they lie on the opposite ends of earth?	18:51
KotCzarny	:)	18:51
Khertan	mysc> zaurus is better for one thing : wifi packet sniffing ...	18:51
qwerty12	That's a link? :/	18:52
mysc	johnx, hacking around linux, irc, occasional webmail	18:52
unixSnob	yeah, I live right between them	18:52
mysc	Khertan, i don't want to sniff wifi or inject :P	18:52
johnx	mysc, an n800 will work well for you I think :)	18:52
johnx	Khertan, kismet runs fine on my n800...	18:52
Khertan	i hope as inject level 4 packet isn't possible	18:52
unixSnob	although there are some connections between Australia and the UK	18:52
qwerty12	Well, I believe it is our Queen that is the Queen there?	18:53
Khertan	johnx > yes ... it can scan network ... but channel hopping kill the network, and injecting doesn't work very well	18:53
johnx	Khertan, it doesn't as long as wlancond isn't running I think	18:54
mysc	johnx, thanks. cheers	18:54
johnx	Khertan, It's not a hardware or driver problem I think	18:54
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KotCzarny	http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/multimedia/2008/04/gallery_DandDStats	18:56
KotCzarny	o.o	18:56
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qwerty12	More like ( . )( . ) :p	18:57
Khertan	johnx> it s a driver problem wich doesn't accept it ... and we can make an other one without specs :)	18:57
Khertan	s/wich/which	18:57
Khertan	s/can/can't	18:58
johnx	Khertan, I can channel hop with kismet while collecting packets for >1 hour without problems	18:58
qwerty12	Do we have uinput module on N800?	18:58
johnx	this is while booted into Debian...but it's the same driver	18:58
Khertan	hum? serious ?	18:58
johnx	Khertan, yeah	18:58
Khertan	oh ... interesting ...	18:59
Khertan	so it s not a driver problem ...	18:59
johnx	I don't think it is	18:59
johnx	maybe I was just lucky	18:59
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johnx	I'd put my money on wlancond though	18:59
Khertan	me too now	18:59
johnx	it seems to tweak lots of wifi stuff	18:59
johnx	I'll try it again right now to make sure I'm not lying to you	18:59
Khertan	and injecting packet work ?	18:59
johnx	nope	19:00
johnx	of course not	19:00
Khertan	arg :(	19:00
johnx	that's just not avaiable in the drivers at all	19:00
qwerty12	fook, CONFIG_INPUT_UINPUT isn't available in my kernel source too :/	19:00
Khertan	Ook ?	19:01
qwerty12	s/fook/fuck then :/	19:01
infobot	qwerty12 meant: fuck then :, CONFIG_INPUT_UINPUT isn't available in my kernel source too :/	19:01
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qwerty12	infobot, no i didn't but nice try.	19:02
Khertan	Ooook ..?	19:02
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* qwerty12 didn't know that google translate does Suomi translation too :/		19:03
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KotCzarny	you wouldn't know if it does it right	19:04
KotCzarny	or if it just plays a joke on you	19:04
KotCzarny	:>	19:04
qwerty12	Meh, it's the best I can rely on :p	19:04
Khertan	oOok ? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Librarian_%28Discworld%29)	19:05
qwerty12	WTF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Librarian_(Discworld).jpg	19:05
KotCzarny	qwerty: you have never read discworld novels?	19:05
KotCzarny	what a pity	19:05
KotCzarny	:)	19:05
qwerty12	If my librarian looked like that, i'd throw the books on his face.	19:05
qwerty12	Don't like them :/	19:05
Khertan	The Librarian of Unseen University :)	19:05
KotCzarny	read colour of magic	19:05
KotCzarny	:>	19:05
Khertan	if u have this one near u let me know	19:06
KotCzarny	first ones are the best	19:06
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Khertan	Men at Arms is a good one too	19:07
KotCzarny	nah	19:07
qwerty12	I'll er, take your words for it	19:07
Khertan	SI	19:07
mysc	the n800 uses standard sdhc size right?	19:08
KotCzarny	yes	19:08
KotCzarny	sd and mmc would work too	19:08
mysc	but over 2gig its sdhc, right?	19:08
KotCzarny	not necessarily	19:08
KotCzarny	:)	19:08
Khertan	but i ve never see mmchc ...	19:08
Khertan	4go can be sd ...	19:08
Khertan	and not sdhc	19:09
mysc	does it come with any already installed like the n810?	19:09
KotCzarny	?	19:09
Khertan	yes a 64Mb if i remember well	19:09
qwerty12	128MB	19:09
Khertan	sd	19:09
Khertan	;)	19:09
KotCzarny	mine had 128mb sd	19:09
qwerty12	same here	19:09
KotCzarny	never used it	19:09
Khertan	so 64Mb should be my Nokia Phone	19:09
Khertan	;)	19:09
KotCzarny	it's pins are virgin ;)	19:09
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Khertan	what s the link between this : Egyptian mythology, quantum physics, Greek philosophy (including Zeno's paradoxes), United Kingdom driving test[7]	19:11
Khertan	?	19:11
Khertan	:)	19:11
qwerty12	They all have letters in those words?	19:11
mysc	they're all subjects you should _not_ be thinking about whilst driving	19:12
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Khertan	Pyramids (7th tome of the DiscWorld)	19:12
qwerty12	When I apply for my provisional in the UK, I won't be thinking about DiscWorld ;)	19:12
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johnx	that's what you say now...but then it'll just pop into your head	19:13
qwerty12	Of course, I always have DiscWorld on my mind :/	19:14
qwerty12	My teacher in my last school tried getting me to read the colours one.	19:14
KotCzarny	as i said, the firstest is teh bestest ;)	19:15
Khertan	johnx > do u have installed pysqlite ?	19:15
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Khertan	if you make an import sqlite3 in python ... does modules exists ?	19:16
johnx	yeah...then I booted into debian to test kismet again :)	19:16
Khertan	(only relevant if u haven't install sqlite)	19:16
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Khertan	someone with an ipython shell can give me the result of : import sqlite3	19:17
Khertan	print sqlite3.version	19:17
Khertan	on chinook ?	19:17
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Khertan	(it seems that sqlite3 is in the python runtime)	19:17
Khertan	http://www.gronmayer.com/it/ don't work ?	19:18
Navi	gronmayer is broken	19:18
qwerty12	Am I right in assuming I can safely delete the /usr/include folder off my tablet?	19:19
mysc	john, you can boot into vanilla debian on you n800?	19:19
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johnx	mysc, it's a little less than vanilla	19:19
johnx	there's a hint of almond	19:19
johnx	but yes	19:20
mysc	hah	19:20
qwerty12	with chocolate. HOW COULD YOU FORGET THE CHOCOLATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!	19:20
qwerty12	:p	19:20
mysc	any url?	19:20
johnx	http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Debian	19:20
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KotCzarny	vanilla chocolate?	19:21
KotCzarny	:)	19:21
mysc	sweet. any benefits to it?	19:21
mysc	aside from a broken openssl :)	19:21
KotCzarny	:>	19:21
johnx	uhm, your choice of 10,000 packages ready to install?	19:21
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mysc	there are arm-compiled packages already sitting there?	19:22
KotCzarny	dependency hell fun?	19:22
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Navi	mysc, yeah	19:23
johnx	KotCzarny, hmm?	19:23
Navi	debian's autobuilder took care of that	19:23
mysc	sweet.	19:23
johnx	mysc, hit packages.debian.org and search for your favorites. Select "armel" distribution	19:23
Navi	They have packages like Warsow on there too	19:23
mysc	hey, can you plot the debian in a card and have a dual-boot kind of setup?	19:23
mysc	plot=plop	19:23
johnx	that's the only way to do it at present	19:23
Navi	it's much too big to not do it anyways	19:24
johnx	you just install fanoush's bootmenu and then untar a starter tarball onto an SD card	19:24
mysc	what about things like the virtual kb, etc?	19:24
johnx	there's a different one	19:24
johnx	matchbox-keyboard	19:24
Navi	matchbox-keyboard is preinstalled	19:24
johnx	it's not as nice	19:24
mysc	hrmmm, this is pretty neat. so you keep os2008 on your flash and you nuked debian onto a card?	19:25
johnx	yup	19:25
johnx	just reboot and select from the bootmenu	19:26
johnx	or you can keep debian on the card and chroot into it from os2008 if you want	19:26
* KotCzarny has os2008 on a flash and os2008 on a sd card		19:26
mysc	sweet. and then when ubuntu comes out you can nuke another card and hotswap os's	19:26
KotCzarny	johnx: kexec ?:)	19:26
Navi	>_>	19:26
mysc	or coldswap i guess...	19:26
johnx	KotCzarny, you could if you want	19:26
KotCzarny	johnx: why?	19:26
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qwerty12	Does kexec work?	19:27
johnx	KotCzarny, you're asking me why you want to do something?	19:27
KotCzarny	sorry, it's late	19:27
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KotCzarny	:)	19:27
johnx	mysc, I still don't see the point in ubuntu though...	19:27
mysc	hrmm, this is a different concept of chroot jails than i'm used to, can you expand?	19:27
johnx	well it's like a chroot jail except there's a whole system in there and you can run whatever you want	19:28
mysc	but with the os2008 overhead?	19:28
johnx	yeah	19:28
unixSnob	Why would chmod fail to work, yet not show any errors?	19:28
mysc	that sounds a lot less efficient than booting directly off the card	19:29
unixSnob	I ran chmod both as root and as a user, and it did not change the permissions	19:29
johnx	mysc, I don't really chroot into debian from os2008...but some people seem to love it for some reason	19:29
qwerty12	unixSnob, Welcome to the feeling :(. My ~ is still messed up.	19:29
mysc	what size card do you recommend john?	19:29
GeneralAntilles	unixSnob, FAT?	19:29
mysc	would you get 4gb int and 4gb ext?	19:30
unixSnob	I think it is fat.. guess that would explain it	19:30
* qwerty12 has 8gb internal and 1gb external		19:30
unixSnob	hmm, on second thought, I'm uncertain	19:30
GeneralAntilles	mysc, 8gb is the sweet spot right now.	19:30
johnx	mysc, yeah, I'd probably choose two 4GB over one 8GB	19:30
unixSnob	My windows box read the SD card, but then I also have ext2fs installed on the windows box	19:30
KotCzarny	hmm	19:30
Khertan	so .... go ... see u later	19:31
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KotCzarny	one big card is better future wise	19:31
mysc	can a debian install (with X and programming stuff) fir on 4gb these days?	19:31
KotCzarny	:)	19:31
Navi	mysc, yes :P	19:31
Navi	4GB is a lot of space	19:31
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mysc	Navi, you have a to ask, these newbie linux distribs install like 6GB off thebat	19:31
KotCzarny	maemo-mapper 1.7gb, cloned os 0.5-1gb	19:31
mysc	:)	19:32
johnx	mysc, mine is still around 1GB	19:32
Navi	Pfft, fook dat sheet	19:32
KotCzarny	some mp3 0.1-500gb	19:32
KotCzarny	:)	19:32
mysc	john, with X and standard bells & whistles?	19:33
johnx	with a nice comfie xfce desktop and a browser	19:33
johnx	it's closer to 1.5GB now that I've been playing around though	19:34
mysc	firefox?	19:34
johnx	v2 had some issues with ARM	19:34
johnx	v3 has yet to be compiled by the debian guys for ARM	19:35
johnx	I think	19:35
mysc	so what browser do you use?	19:35
johnx	epiphany-webkit	19:35
unixSnob	how does one find out what filesystem has been mounted?	19:35
mysc	ok. did you upgrade your libssl?	19:35
johnx	on unix?	19:35
johnx	mount	19:35
johnx	mysc, of course O_o	19:35
mysc	yeah, mount	19:35
johnx	the one in the tarball might be old still	19:35
Navi	I've got 150MB left on my 1GB card	19:35
mysc	the 5/14/08 tarball?	19:36
johnx	yeah	19:36
mysc	but then you just upgrade off the bat, right?	19:36
johnx	yeah	19:36
mysc	ok, no problem, i'll just not generate any keys or ssh anywhere until i upgrade	19:36
johnx	yup...you can add a warning to the wiki if you feel like it too :)	19:37
mysc	now i have to learn debians package management...slackware monkey here :)	19:37
johnx	aaah	19:37
johnx	apt is nice and friendly, I promise	19:37
wnd	most of the time	19:37
mysc	yes, i've heard great things about apt.	19:37
unixSnob	thanks johnx and GeneralAntilles... I have vfat, which must be why I can't change permissions	19:38
johnx	actually making your own .debs is kind of a pain	19:38
KotCzarny	;)	19:38
mysc	it's always been wget; tar -xzvf; ./configure; make for me though	19:38
mysc	hope the learning curve isn't too steep	19:38
johnx	I prefer to let something else handle my dependencies	19:38
KotCzarny	in slackware it's a make install && makepkg	19:38
KotCzarny	:)	19:38
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johnx	and building things from scratch on ARM would be a ridiculous waste of time if someone else has already done it for you	19:39
gpd	can anyone confirm that using BT to a phone with HSDPA and tethering the N800 is classified as 'using the phone as a modem' - therefore causing O2 to charge me 3 GBP per Mb rather than Free if on the phone directly?	19:39
Navi	bleh, I can't stand APT	19:39
simboss	ayone there for a stupid question on pymamemo + urllib2 ? :-)	19:39
Navi	aptitude makes it a bit more bearable	19:39
KotCzarny	gpd: that's a question for a local lawyer	19:40
KotCzarny	:>	19:40
* qwerty12 uses apt-get and dpkg only :/		19:40
mysc	johnx, i'll be playing with making my debian card later one. so help along the way would be much appreciated.	19:40
mysc	later on	19:40
johnx	uhm sure, but it's pretty simple to get started :) just tar jxvf foo.tar.bz2	19:41
gpd	I can't get a straight answer from o2 - hoped someone here does it.	19:41
johnx	gpd, that sounds a lot like "using the phone as a modem"	19:41
qwerty12	Same here, but I'm on Orange UK so I'm not really sure about 02 - UK.	19:41
johnx	I would say O2 could claim that's what you are doing and it would be difficult to argue	19:42
mysc	how do you get the tarball onto the card in the first place?	19:42
gpd	a while ago someone mentioned that thetherining to HSDPA goes under the radar somehow... ie not a modem - but a direct link? feasible - or nonsense?	19:42
johnx	you uhm...download it	19:42
johnx	or use a card reader on your PC	19:42
johnx	gpd, ah...so you want to know whether they'll catch you or not? :P	19:43
mysc	no card reader :(	19:43
gpd	johnx: :)	19:43
johnx	mysc, just plug the n800 into your desktop with usb. instant card reader :)	19:43
mysc	h0h0	19:43
mysc	and from slack ima just mkfs?	19:44
johnx	yeah	19:44
johnx	or do it on the tablet itself	19:44
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mysc	i need to make sure i get the device names right, don't wanna fry my flash	19:44
KotCzarny	just check the sizes	19:45
qwerty12	Flash would be /	19:45
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KotCzarny	:)	19:45
johnx	you can't access flash through USB	19:45
KotCzarny	with df or cfdisk	19:45
johnx	or the NAND where the OS lives	19:45
johnx	s/or//	19:45
infobot	johnx meant: the NAND where the OS lives	19:45
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mysc	OK. i presume you put the debian on the ext card?	19:45
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johnx	or the int card	19:48
mysc	ima psyched now. gonna go get my 800. bbl.	19:48
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mysc	great chat, will report tonight hopefully with xfce on board.	19:48
johnx	sounds good	19:49
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Blastur	hey! anyone know where i can find a working list of package repositories? gromayer.com/it seems to be malfunctioning	19:52
GAN800	Extras is the only important one.	19:53
johnx	heh	19:53
GAN800	The rest of them you can pretty much go without.	19:53
GAN800	At least until gronmayer is back.	19:53
Blastur	id like a repo with aircrack-ng in it	19:54
Blastur	anyone know one?	19:54
qwerty12	I think mulliners has it	19:54
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Blastur	ah, great	19:55
Blastur	thanks	19:55
qwerty12	http://www.mulliner.org/nokia770/	19:55
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qwerty12	Has one click install for OS2008 :)	19:55
qwerty12	Yeah, just checked, chinook aircrack-ng is there.	19:56
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johnx	hmm...running kismet shows I should switch my WLAN to a different channel...	19:57
Blastur	btw, is it possible to tunnel all traffic through a socks server?	19:58
Blastur	like i can setup a "global" http-proxy, is it possible to do the same with socks?	19:58
mysc	can i rm -rf ./mozilla (to remove all my cache)?	19:58
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qwerty12	You can do but you can also do it from the browser itself.	19:59
mysc	how?	19:59
KotCzarny	socks trafficking? O.o	19:59
qwerty12	mysc, Menu > Tools > Clear > Cache	20:00
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mysc	found it :)	20:00
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mysc	how do you clear the xterm history? "history -c" doesn't work	20:02
qwerty12	rm the .ash_historyfile?	20:02
mysc	yep!, okay tablet is clear.	20:03
qwerty12	Don't worry, I won't tell about the pr0n you were wgetting :p	20:04
mysc	shhh!!	20:04
qwerty12	hehe	20:04
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Blastur	hmm, what is the root password of my n810?	20:11
Blastur	or how do i become super user?	20:12
johnx	khertan_, I've been running kismet for 30 minutes now and collected 25,000 packets. How long does it usually take to have the channell hopping die?	20:12
qwerty12	Blastur, www.nitapps.com	20:12
johnx	Blastur, go to nitapps.com and install easyroot or install openssh server and ssh in or use flasher to put your tablet into rd mode	20:12
Blastur	thanks	20:14
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qwerty12	My user name is on a word list. Should I be proud?	20:17
KotCzarny	if it's not a blacklist or hitlist..	20:19
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qwerty12	If it's hitlist, goodbye all. I guess Nokia would want to kill me with the Diablo stuff :p	20:20
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johnx	khertan_, hmm...actually something is definitely a little bit off with kismet. It's really showing me a lot of random networks, including misnamed versions of my own AP	20:22
johnx	what kind of problems should I be looking for?	20:22
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Blastur	where did you find kismet, johnx ?	20:26
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johnx	I'm using the one from debian	20:26
Blastur	not on n810?	20:27
johnx	on n800	20:27
Blastur	which repository url is that?	20:27
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johnx	my n800 is running debian	20:27
johnx	so it's ftp.us.debian.org/debian unstable main	20:28
Blastur	oh.. okay. is it really stable yet? or are you developing?	20:28
johnx	kismet or debian?	20:28
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Blastur	debian on n810	20:28
Blastur	i read that it has no sound and that power management isnt perfected yet	20:28
johnx	sound works	20:29
johnx	power management still needs more work	20:29
johnx	I'm not going to put much more work into it for a while...so if you're waiting for it to be perfect it might be a long wait...	20:29
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kulve	johnx: what have you done for it? Where are the patches? :)	20:30
johnx	debian?	20:31
johnx	I've copied a whole bunch of stuff from os2008 to make sound work. and put together a tarball out of stuff other people have made	20:31
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kulve	so, you haven't patched any sources and compiled the whole thing?	20:32
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johnx	nope	20:32
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johnx	I've compiled maybe one package	20:32
Blastur	im quite happy with os2008	20:33
johnx	tablet-utils from pkg-maemo.alioth.debian.org's bzr repo	20:33
johnx	good	20:33
johnx	so am I :)	20:33
johnx	I still use it everyday	20:33
Blastur	btw, does gps work on debian johnx ? and if so, is it better Time to fix?	20:33
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johnx	aaah...gps on the n810	20:34
johnx	now that is a good question	20:34
johnx	I don't have an n810 so I haven't done any work on that	20:34
Blastur	oh ok. n800 doesnt have gps or?	20:34
johnx	nope	20:34
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johnx	accepting n810 donations in return for support :P	20:35
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lopz	re	20:36
Blastur	hehe, ill remember than when i get fed up with mine johnx	20:38
Blastur	didn't someone mention a Openstreetmap program for N810?	20:38
Blastur	i cant find it on maemo.org	20:38
johnx	maemomapper? roadmap? navit?	20:38
Blastur	i'd like to edit the maps.. maemo mapper only seems to provide read-only access	20:39
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johnx	aaah	20:39
Saviq	Blastur: edit maps?	20:39
glass	for fixing them i suppose	20:40
t_s_o	well its official, nokia wants nothing to do with my wsod 770. sadly it brught it via expansys, as they where selling of some leftover us ones in europe...	20:40
Blastur	openstreetmap is an ongoing effort, i have added pretty much all roads in my town	20:40
Blastur	it'd be really good if i could walk around adding stuff like parking spaces and pubs in "real time"	20:40
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Blastur	otherwise its so much work to do when you get home and unload the gps traces	20:41
glass	surely some of the apps has points of interest adding?	20:41
Blastur	yeah, but this is not POIs, this is openstreetmap tags	20:41
Blastur	so i need something like JOSM (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/JOSM)	20:41
Blastur	but java is not available, right?	20:41
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glass	dunno how java on maemo has progressed	20:45
glass	there was some effort for it tho	20:45
glass	that would be probably too heaby	20:45
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johnx	khertan_, ok...It looks like after 1 hour 16 minutes it's stopped seeing new packets this time :/	21:07
johnx	sorry if I got your hopes up	21:07
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Blastur	hmm	21:17
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Blastur	im trying to bounce traffic via my n810, so i set /proc/sys/ipv4/forward = 1 on my N810, and then on my workstation, i set the IP of my n810 as gateway. It seems to work, but as soon as the n810 detects that the workstation has a better (direct) path to the real router, it sends ICMP redirect messages	21:18
Blastur	how can I prevent this and make sure all traffic goes through the n810, even though its not the optimal path	21:19
AStorm	disable redirects :>	21:19
AStorm	also in /proc/sys/ipv4	21:19
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Blastur	i did .. /proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/all/send_redirects = 0	21:24
Blastur	however, it still sends them according to wireshark	21:24
AStorm	that's not it	21:25
AStorm	wrong option	21:25
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Blastur	which one is it then?	21:27
AStorm	that, and secure_redirects	21:29
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Blastur	still sending them :(	21:31
Blastur	do i need to reload something after changing these?	21:31
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Blastur	test	21:37
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m-c	hi	21:38
m-c	you maemo devs seen the iphone?	21:38
m-c	I just got shown a bunch of features this weekend	21:39
m-c	the virtual keyboard has some really nice UI features:	21:39
m-c	1) keys expand above the cursor so you can see what you are hitting	21:39
m-c	2) the key will not depress until you RELEASE the cursor	21:39
johnx	I think most people here have used an ipod touch/iphone at some point...	21:40
m-c	right away, wondered whether there were people bringing this to the NIT	21:40
m-c	johnx: you would think so, but I could not see how someone could use that virtual keyboard and not want to put those features into a NIT right away	21:41
inz	m-c, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrWpUBTDDr0	21:41
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johnx	re: 2) That's the same behavior on the tablet	21:42
johnx	Also, there's nothing stopping someone from making a hildon input method that has features like that	21:42
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m-c	what is that software called that does the virtual keyboard on the NIT?	21:44
qwerty12_N800	apt-get source hildon-input-method	21:45
m-c	qwerty12_N800: thank you	21:45
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m-c	Nokia_Support: Please hire Edge from that youtube video straight-away. All the best.	21:45
m-c	*Edje	21:45
m-c	;-)	21:46
pupnik	synergy	21:46
m-c	inz: Yes, that is exactly what I mean	21:46
AStorm	johnx: not exactly the same	21:46
m-c	inz: do you have any other insight into that demo ?	21:46
AStorm	Nokia has autorepeat	21:46
AStorm	which sucks	21:46
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johnx	AStorm, actually I was just playing with it and realized there was a "gesture" for "space"	21:47
m-c	I see there is more information in the youtube comments	21:47
m-c	... because, the NIT virtual keyboard... it's not good, at least compared to the iPhone virtual keyboard	21:48
m-c	in terms of usability	21:48
johnx	I prefer it to the iphone keyboard, but everyone has an opinion	21:49
roope	the iPhone one is predictive, the tablet one is not. It's a quite big difference.	21:49
m-c	I see iPhone people tapping out messages quickly, and I see NIT people buying bluetooth keyboards	21:49
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johnx	I can type pretty quickly on the onscreen keyboard actually	21:49
unixSnob	Navi, are you around?	21:49
* unixSnob wonders if navi is south african		21:49
m-c	and the limitation just seems to be the two UI things I mentioned	21:49
AStorm	roope: that's optional in iPhone	21:50
AStorm	m-c: that's because of use case	21:50
AStorm	NIT is a PC	21:50
AStorm	iPhone is a phone	21:50
johnx	m-c, the "zoom" thing is probably difficult to do without dedicated 3D	21:50
m-c	if the NIT had "click on release"	21:50
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AStorm	johnx: it's actually simple, heh	21:50
m-c	at least on the keyboard, it would be a lot more helpful	21:51
AStorm	m-c: hmm, not as nice as you think	21:51
johnx	AStorm, aaah...I wasn't remembering the effect properly	21:51
johnx	(also, iphone users don't use bt keyboards because they can't)	21:51
AStorm	yep	21:51
m-c	I am not someone who thinks all things apple should be on linux, but when you see a UI design that works really well, then I think it should get incorporated	21:51
acydlord	i preferred the NIT virtual keyboard	21:52
AStorm	well, actually we're missing source code to some of the components	21:52
acydlord	it's annoying when a predictive input keyboard shrinks the letter you want to type	21:52
johnx	m-c, well filing an enhancement request with Nokia on bugs.maemo.org would be a good place to start	21:52
AStorm	do we have code for handwriting recognition? hildon-input-method? virtual keyboard?	21:52
johnx	or coding up a demo in python	21:52
AStorm	or both :>	21:52
johnx	AStorm, the actual keyboard itself? I think not, sadly :/	21:52
m-c	AStorm: the youtube video shows that someone has the code available for just what I was saying was needed, about a year ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrWpUBTDDr0	21:53
roope	http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=5964&tag=nl.e622	21:53
AStorm	~lart Nokia and their lawyers	21:53
* infobot sends a legion of lawyers after Nokia and their lawyers's head		21:53
roope	But then again, people prefer anecdotal stuff more.	21:53
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AStorm	infobot: lol	21:53
infobot	from memory, lol is stands for Laughing Out Loud. It is grammatically incorrect to use LOL in the first person; use 'heh' or 'haha' instead. If you want to use LOL, do '/me lol' instead.	21:53
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AStorm	what a pointless bot	21:54
johnx	m-c, but it was never plugged into the actual input method if I recall	21:54
AStorm	well, plugging it in (hackish) is simple	21:54
AStorm	you just need to set a certain tag on the window	21:54
AStorm	and it will be nicely swallowed, hidden and shown when needed	21:54
johnx	ah, interesting	21:55
AStorm	hildon-im just sends proper X events	21:56
AStorm	its window isn't focused (that'd break stuff)	21:57
johnx	ah...wow that's actually a lot more reasonable than I thought!	21:57
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johnx	m-c, well, I nominate you to develop a demo to get other people interested	21:58
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m-c	roope: interesting link, thx	21:58
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roope	But there is of course a difference between what it _feels_ like to use and what the actual average input speed is.	21:59
roope	subjective feelings are of course important also.	21:59
m-c	johnx: like I said, I am only interested in what people were thinking about it. I do not know how someone could have seen it and not said, "yeah, the NIT needs it"	21:59
m-c	roope: my perspective is just watching three different people using iphones at a conference, and hearing the rapid "pop, pop, pop, pop" of their finger typing	22:00
johnx	I actually like the fullscreen keyboard quite a bit, and I have had a chance to try an ipod touch	22:00
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roope	m-c: In best cases it works very well, yes. Once people learn and start to trust it, and don't write anything that strange, especially in English.	22:01
AStorm	yep	22:01
AStorm	other languages will have problems	22:01
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m-c	I have no doubt QWERTY typing is faster	22:01
AStorm	btw, NIT has predictive text for handwriting recognition	22:01
m-c	but I would not mind seeing a comparison of NIT finger typing and iPhone typing	22:01
AStorm	so it shouldn't be too hard for Nokia to add it to the keyboard	22:01
* qwerty12_N800 has no doubt too ;)		22:02
AStorm	m-c: anyway, N810 has a hardware keyboard	22:02
johnx	it's also has some prediction with the keyboards...	22:02
roope	astorm: No, there's no predictive text.	22:02
AStorm	roope: there are dictionary suggestions	22:02
AStorm	so, predictive text	22:02
AStorm	:>	22:02
roope	:) Well, but not in the capacity you would need for a iphone style keyboard.	22:02
AStorm	enough :>	22:03
johnx	but the iphone keyboard is more "corrective" than predictive	22:03
m-c	http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/30/tenacious-hacker-brings-the-iphone-keyboard-to-a-nokia-n800/	22:03
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roope	That thing that Gustavo did is nice but a very superficial copy of it, there's no intelligence behind it.	22:04
johnx	and thus we circle back to the original video...	22:04
roope	The speed doesn't really come from type on release.	22:04
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AStorm	johnx: well, that's easy to do	22:04
m-c	speed comparison >>> http://snoyt.vox.com/library/post/n800810-n95-and-iphone-typing-speeds-and-their-future.html	22:05
AStorm	n95 is smaller ;P	22:05
AStorm	compare n810 please	22:05
AStorm	or n800	22:05
m-c	they do	22:05
AStorm	n810 hardware keyboard still wins ;P	22:05
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johnx	looks like the n800 wins :P	22:06
AStorm	m-c: as you see, N800 won	22:06
AStorm	and they can't use n810 hardware keyboard properly ;P	22:06
AStorm	maybe too big thumbs	22:06
m-c	well, it is one study, but I am willing to admit I am wrong	22:07
m-c	*it is just one study	22:07
acydlord	i started typng on my n810 a lot faster after i got my centro	22:07
t_s_o	hmm, is that os07? i seem to get way to many wayward presses on my N800...	22:07
AStorm	:>	22:07
acydlord	as the centro has the smallest qwerty keyboard i have ever seen	22:07
m-c	I would be happily surprised if my n800 has the fastest input method	22:08
AStorm	acydlord: you see, I also got practice	22:08
AStorm	and that guy probably didn't have any	22:08
johnx	even if it's not the fastest it's still perfectly reasonable	22:08
acydlord	yeah	22:08
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roope	m-c: Basically. Um. If you want a fast input method, you need a hardware keyboard.	22:08
qwerty12_N800	Has anyone tried quikscript (something like that)?	22:08
t_s_o	btw, is there supposed to be a keyboard press sound on the N800 fullscreen keyboard?	22:08
roope	the iPhone predictive and tablet non-predictive reach about the same speeds.	22:08
AStorm	t_s_o: it's optional afaicr	22:08
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AStorm	you can turn it on in the options	22:08
AStorm	roope: so tablet predictive could be better still	22:09
AStorm	I wonder how that compares to trained Dasher ;>	22:09
AStorm	the only problem with it is that it requires full attention	22:09
roope	astorm: I ... I don't think that there are studies that would show that predictive input is... would be faster.	22:09
AStorm	(visual)	22:09
m-c	roope: I want an accurate input method, actually	22:09
roope	It's faster than multitap, but there aren't studies that would show that it's faster than a proper size non-predictive.	22:10
AStorm	m-c: yeah, they should measure error rate	22:10
m-c	actually, the fullscreen virtual keyboard is pretty good	22:10
t_s_o	AStorm: i only find the generic touch screen sound. no matter what level i set that keyboad option in "sounds" to i get nothing...	22:10
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roope	It has always two sides: for the times that it corrects user input, it a) user might feel from his muscle memory that he typed wrong anyway and stop to check, b) the "correction" might actually be wrong, c) the user needs to stop and see that the prediction agrees with the user.	22:11
m-c	dunno - I should think about it a bit more - look up some other studies online. Just wanted to get people's opinions here. thanks for your insights	22:11
roope	These extra steps eat away the gains of a predictive system.	22:11
AStorm	t_s_o: that's for the full screen keyboard	22:11
m-c	roope: interesting	22:11
AStorm	roope: yes	22:11
AStorm	Dasher has nifty error correction mode	22:11
roope	(as a sidenote, I wrote my master's thesis on text input... And well, I actually designed the NIT virtual input methods, so...)	22:11
AStorm	although I could use a "jump to previous letter" key	22:12
t_s_o	AStorm: and thats what i was looking for. but no matter what i set it to i only get the generic touchscreen sound...	22:12
roope	So I have some opinions on these matters. :)	22:12
AStorm	like a backspace	22:12
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AStorm	t_s_o: hm	22:12
AStorm	probably a bug, go notify Nokia	22:12
t_s_o	yay...	22:12
roope	Still, I'm not here to say that they aren't perfect, they certainly aren't.	22:12
roope	(minus n't)	22:12
AStorm	KotCzarny: could you build new Dasher package for me?	22:13
AStorm	just for testing	22:13
AStorm	no need for GNOME or speech support	22:13
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johnx	roope, very cool. I didn't know what was you :)	22:13
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roope	http://maemo.org/intro/presentations/ my thesis is there, if you're interested. :)	22:14
AStorm	roope: btw, how does chord typing fare?	22:14
roope	astorm: Umm, with chord hardware and plenty of time, yes it's quite fast.	22:15
AStorm	(I know, impossible on N8x0, no multitouch)	22:15
roope	Chord typing is rather different than multitouch input.	22:15
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AStorm	hmm?	22:15
AStorm	i know it is	22:15
AStorm	I'd have to check if N8x0 touchscreen (if it supported multitouch) could be used as chord input	22:16
roope	Things like that fall into the category of being interesting things that will 'never' really go to a mass market device, unfortunately.	22:16
AStorm	yep	22:16
AStorm	I'd rather have those 3D gloves ;)	22:16
roope	Chord input on a touch screen would ... be just slower, actually.	22:16
roope	Since if you assume that normal input is a quick tap in and out, chord input requires multiple inputs in and out. It cannot be faster, it can be slower.	22:17
Veggen	hmm. Anyone knows if Sandisk 8GB mini-SDHC works in n810?	22:17
AStorm	Veggen: mini? they have one?	22:17
Veggen	eh, micro.	22:17
AStorm	ah, that one, yes, it does	22:17
roope	Unless you assume that you can hold your fingers still with the chord touchscreen version. But you can't really if there are no hard keys.	22:18
Veggen	ok. Almost picked one up on impulse, but he said they didn't have a "no questions asked"-return policy, so I didn't.	22:18
AStorm	really, have to check how well dasher does with the pen	22:18
Veggen	(here, you can always return if it's defective, but return because it wasn't the right purpose-device isn't guaranteed by law)	22:19
AStorm	stupid GTK input box insert a tab when you send them tab key event	22:19
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AStorm	or that's just stupid XChat ;P	22:19
roope	astorm: Advanced users of Dasher can reach speeds of 15-25 wpm.	22:19
AStorm	-35	22:19
AStorm	:-)	22:19
AStorm	it needs a better "back out" mode	22:20
roope	Yes, the mouse version is faster, I actually quoted the eye version.	22:20
AStorm	pen should be faster than mouse	22:20
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roope	Well, not really. The speed is more governed by the mental stuff happening in the mind. :)	22:20
roope	You need to see and think what you're doing.	22:21
AStorm	It'll lose anyway.	22:21
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roope	Scan all the options. I've tried to learn Dasher for some time, it's ... exhausting. :)	22:21
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AStorm	Not that much.	22:21
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AStorm	The trick is keeping constant pace.	22:22
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m-c	what's a good, inexpensive BT keyboard solution?	22:23
AStorm	And mobile?	22:23
roope	Stowaway keyboard is quite nice.	22:23
roope	You don't want a crappy, mobile one. :D	22:23
roope	that would kind of ruin the whole point.	22:23
johnx	roope, did you design the fullscreen keyboard as well?	22:24
AStorm	But it's expensive.	22:24
roope	johnx: yeah.	22:24
timely	m-c/ johnx: having used the ipod touch on a number of occasions, i hate its keyboard	22:24
roope	It's ... well, it's functional.	22:24
m-c	I am thinking about an apple bt keyboard -- I do not need an ultra-mobile one	22:24
m-c	timely interesting	22:25
AStorm	Yeah, it's okay.	22:25
m-c	roope: I keep hearing about the stowaway, and I see a lot of people using htem with the NIT. where did you buy yours?	22:25
roope	m-c: I don't actually know. Nokia has a nice system of getting stuff. ;)	22:26
roope	It just arrives.	22:26
timely	fwiw, i would like to see an osk keyboard where key sizes varied (among other things)	22:26
AStorm	I wanted to steal one ;)	22:26
m-c	:) :) :)	22:26
roope	but out of the ones I've tried the Stowaway is probably the best. It folds quite nicely etc.	22:26
timely	AStorm: sadly hildon-im does trigger resizes, and that does break stuff	22:26
m-c	what is the model number you like roope?	22:26
m-c	they have different stowaways	22:27
keesj	register now it is free!	22:27
roope	http://homepage.mac.com/axg4903/images/770keyboard.jpg it's the one that looks like this.	22:27
m-c	ty	22:27
roope	I think it's just Stowaway Bluetooth Keyboard, really.	22:27
AStorm	heh, caught a bug	22:27
AStorm	in xfce4-panel version I have	22:27
roope	It was some years ago, i'm not sure if they have newer ones.	22:27
johnx	IIRC, there is a similar foldable keyboard with 5 rows	22:28
hrw	roope: did you one of guys who also wrote control-panel for choosing keyboard layout/language?	22:28
roope	hrw: Umm, well. I'm an interaction designer, so I don't write them. But yes, I've specified some of them.	22:28
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roope	(just avoiding any possible blame beforehand ;)	22:29
hrw	roope: please kick that someone's ass from me.	22:29
roope	hrw: what's the matter there?	22:29
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hrw	roope: no possibility to add own layout of internal n810 hw keyboard	22:29
timely	hrw: are you sure?	22:30
timely	it's just software	22:30
roope	hrw: Well, it's technically not easy to do. And besides, if there are printings on the keys, then umm.	22:30
timely	roope: oh give me a break	22:30
timely	nokia already messed that up	22:30
hrw	timely: it is just closed software	22:30
timely	hrw: i'll black box with you if you need	22:30
timely	you can get a device from one region	22:31
timely	and switch the hardware keylayout	22:31
hrw	roope: technically it is easy to do. look at ukeyboard package which do that	22:31
timely	when you do, there are 5 keys which rotate their blue function	22:31
hrw	timely: to one of provided ones	22:31
timely	which is just insane	22:31
timely	=> roope	22:31
hrw	timely: I can not add Polish layout to that list	22:31
roope	hrw: Well, it wasn't really seen as a use case that normal users would do. The effort to build the UI would be rather big.	22:31
AStorm	roope: while you're at it, add an option for user dictionaries too	22:32
timely	hrw: hrm, so you want to know how to force the ui to list polish as a selectable layout?	22:32
timely	gimme a bit to pull up a vpn	22:32
roope	Developers can create their own ones manually and then put them into the device.	22:32
hrw	timely: exactly	22:32
AStorm	I'd love to get that handwriting recognition to recognize Polish chars too :>	22:32
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roope	astorm: you can choose a custom dictionary. I think.	22:32
hrw	roope: maemo team lack lot of use cases	22:32
AStorm	just needs a minor expansion	22:32
roope	hrw: I think lacking that use case is a good thing.	22:32
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AStorm	(like, "add character"	22:32
AStorm	btw, it balks after you add too many character signatures	22:33
hrw	roope: I would not agree	22:33
AStorm	I mean, too many custom ones	22:33
AStorm	can't add any more then	22:33
AStorm	and the error message is not too precise	22:33
roope	With limited resources the question is that do we put designers doing stuff like that or then doing actually something that people need and want and would help sell the devices.	22:33
AStorm	need to write a bug about that ;P	22:33
hrw	roope: current maemo i18n situation is deeply broken	22:33
roope	And I don't think that feature would really sell more devices.	22:33
AStorm	roope: well, bugs != features I hope?	22:34
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hrw	roope: then open sources of that application so we will be able to provide patches for review	22:34
roope	astorm: Well, bugs are a separate issue of cousre.	22:34
AStorm	(about that epitext or what it's called)	22:34
roope	hrw: I'm all for open sourcing them.	22:34
AStorm	adding your own chars to be recognized there would be great	22:34
timely	hrw: sadly i suspect things aren't open sourced for reasons that are equivalent to them having poor scalability	22:34
timely	lack of focus / desire	22:35
hrw	roope: I heard that in 2012 sources of 2005 calculator will be finally open	22:35
AStorm	;P	22:35
roope	I couldn't care less about the sources of the calculator app, really.	22:35
hrw	timely: look at ukeyboard source - it is very easy to read and expand	22:35
hrw	timely: and it do the same thing as maemo closed one	22:35
timely	hrw: you don't want me to look at the open source code	22:36
timely	if i'm about to look at the closed source code and give you black box hints	22:36
hrw	timely: ok	22:36
roope	For the keyboard issue there is not intentional done from preventing people to create new keymaps, there is just no UI in the device for it.	22:36
AStorm	s/in the device/in the applet/	22:36
AStorm	there's no need for UI to add	22:36
timely	hrw: ok, can you give me some string unique to the ui in question?	22:36
AStorm	there is need for UI to select :>	22:36
timely	like the window title or label?	22:37
hrw	roope: there is no new ui for it	22:37
timely	roope: this is stupid	22:37
hrw	timely: control panel -> regional & settings	22:37
AStorm	yep, selector is just broken	22:37
timely	hrw: pretend i don't have a device handy	22:37
roope	timely: could you be a bit more specific?	22:37
hrw	timely: moment then	22:37
timely	could you be patient?	22:37
timely	i'm not a fast typist	22:37
timely	all it needs is a way to check a file system directory and list each item from that directory	22:37
roope	Perhaps you could start with the issue first and then add the opinion, and not the other way round.	22:37
timely	it can use the filenames to lookup their localized translations	22:37
timely	there's a keyboard layout chooser	22:38
timely	it presumably has a hard coded list of entries	22:38
timely	and hrw wants to add polish	22:38
timely	i'm not sure it's hard coded yet, i'll find out once hrw helps me find the code	22:38
AStorm	:>	22:38
roope	Yes, it might be hard coded, since all of those names are localized.	22:38
hrw	timely: 'keyboard layout' is one message	22:38
roope	And there is one for each sales region for the device.	22:38
AStorm	roope: I smell misfeature :>	22:38
AStorm	can't you people just use gettext?	22:39
timely	roope: so what?	22:39
timely	AStorm: no, we have to do it "better"	22:39
timely	you can switch hardware layouts from the ui	22:39
timely	and the result is Blue incompatible w/ the layout	22:39
timely	which means we clearly don't care	22:39
AStorm	yep	22:39
AStorm	but, we can write new layouts	22:40
timely	therefore that is not a valid reason to block accepting a third party layout	22:40
timely	as for l10n of the string	22:40
timely	that is solvable	22:40
AStorm	:-)	22:40
AStorm	yes, it is	22:40
AStorm	just use gettext properly	22:40
AStorm	and not hardcode names everywhere	22:40
timely	AStorm: don't mention gettext	22:40
AStorm	:>	22:40
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AStorm	ok, then write your own tiny variant	22:40
hrw	timely: or 'Finnish/Swedish/Norwegian/Danish' is other text	22:40
timely	hrw: your first string worked	22:41
timely	patience	22:41
hrw	ok	22:41
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roope	Well, yes, for that particular issue you might want to put a bug in the bugzilla. Perhaps Richard or Tomas can then comment.	22:41
roope	It's how it's been implemented.	22:41
hrw	roope: maemo bug #2899 is filled	22:41
timely	this seems to come from hildon-input-method-plugins	22:41
AStorm	Ok, I finally have to write these two annoying bugs in closed code	22:41
pvanhoof	test	22:41
hrw	pvanhoof: failed	22:41
AStorm	about epitext	22:41
roope	hwr: ok, that's good to know.	22:41
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khertan	Hi !	22:41
AStorm	pvanhoof: enter password to continue	22:41
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qwerty12_N800	Theres ur password ;P	22:42
hrw	AStorm: do not mention any i18n bugs rather - nokia devs do not even use strftime()	22:42
khertan	Does someone can say me if sqlite3 is a default module of python2.5-runtime or does if it s a python2.5 module available in extras ?	22:42
AStorm	hrw: it's not that bad	22:42
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AStorm	I mean, just make an option to add a symbol to epitext	22:42
hrw	AStorm: really? look at clock applet	22:42
AStorm	could be really useful	22:42
AStorm	hrw: well, I know ;P	22:43
Saviq	AStorm: what's wrong with the clock applet?	22:43
AStorm	maybe even s/symbol/word/	22:43
hrw	AStorm: on my tablet it should say "Wtorek" not "Tuesday"	22:43
johnx	khertan, I believe python2.5-runtime does not depend on any sqlite stuff	22:43
Saviq	hrw: it does, on mine	22:43
AStorm	Saviq: it can't use i18n'd names	22:43
timely	hrw: sorry, reading this code isn't easy	22:43
AStorm	timely: hack over hack over bandaid? :P	22:44
Saviq	hrw: mine's 'wtorek\n2008-05-20'	22:44
hrw	Saviq: but you installed whole Polish translation - right?	22:44
Saviq	yes	22:44
hrw	Saviq: I do not	22:44
AStorm	that fakes it, yep	22:44
timely	AStorm: i'm not a native gtk speaker	22:44
AStorm	timely: ah	22:44
Saviq	ah ok	22:44
timely	oh	22:44
timely	there we go	22:44
timely	how nice	22:44
hrw	Saviq: normal gtk apps show Wtorek with my Polish regional settings and English language	22:44
timely	static FOOPY barpy[] =	22:44
timely	{	22:44
timely	{...}	22:45
timely	...	22:45
timely	}	22:45
AStorm	rotfl	22:45
AStorm	~lart static arrays of text	22:45
* infobot farts in static arrays of text's general direction		22:45
Saviq	hrw: understood	22:45
timely	i hate to ask	22:45
AStorm	infobot: suck	22:45
infobot	hey, i'm on lunchbreak, screw off	22:45
timely	do those fields change their values when you change languages?	22:45
timely	e.g. switch your language to russian	22:45
timely	what does it say?	22:45
timely	if so, tell roope to bugger off wrt localizability :)	22:45
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hrw	timely: rotfl!!!	22:46
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timely	hrw: well, come on, check ;-)	22:46
hrw	now I know why it is closed....	22:46
timely	it's too embarassing to release? :)	22:46
timely	(sp)	22:46
AStorm	they should anyway	22:46
AStorm	a team of cleaners would make it shine	22:46
timely	or commit suicide	22:47
* AStorm would game		22:47
AStorm	no, why	22:47
AStorm	we could rewrite the worst parts	22:47
khertan	johnx: thx, i ask because i ve two sqlite module in my nit	22:47
timely	each person has a tolerance for bad code	22:47
hrw	timely: restarting to Dansk language	22:47
johnx	khertan, I got it running with the pysqlite you showed me	22:47
AStorm	so, someone with high tolerance would rewrite it to something better	22:47
hrw	AStorm: we would replace it with ukeyboard code	22:47
AStorm	maybe	22:47
timely	hrw: anyway... i think it should be possible for you to write a binary patch	22:48
timely	or possibly if you understand gtk well enough some sort of library patch	22:48
AStorm	timely: that is so wrong	22:48
timely	AStorm: you don't want to reimplement this whole thing	22:48
AStorm	we already did	22:48
hrw	timely: I can even try to catch my left elbow with left hand	22:48
AStorm	it's called ukeyboard	22:48
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timely	it replaces the pref panel in control panel?	22:49
hrw	timely: it does	22:49
hrw	timely: but it cannot replace pref panel in onscreen keyboard	22:49
timely	oh sure it can	22:49
hrw	but it does not	22:49
* timely goes looking for apis		22:49
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AStorm	btw, is the variant of matchbox used in Maemo OSS?	22:51
AStorm	because, it crashes on me for some reason, I want to debug that	22:52
timely	yes	22:52
timely	http://mxr.maemo.org/os2008/source/matchbox-window-manager-1.2/	22:52
AStorm	mhm	22:52
AStorm	debug build exists?	22:52
timely	http://timeless.justdave.net/maemo/mxr-maemo-org-dns-0.1.deb	22:52
timely	you need that deb installed to use the previous url	22:52
AStorm	mhm	22:53
timely	um... doubtful	22:53
timely	but you can rebuild it yourself	22:53
AStorm	yes, I can	22:53
AStorm	I mean, I will be able to in a few days	22:53
AStorm	finally some "free" time	22:53
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timely	ok	22:54
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m-c	hmm - trying to contact someone on Voice over IP using Google Talk, but Command Center will only let me chat with them	22:57
timely	struct _private2 { GTypeInterface base_iface; GtkWidget (meth1) ( _private1, _private3, GtkSizeGroup , gint); void (meth2)( _private1, const gchar, GType, gpointer); void (meth3) (_private1, _private3); void (meth4) (_private1); void (meth5) (_private1, _private4*); }	22:57
AStorm	hopefully these aren't real names :-)	22:57
m-c	I wonder if I have something misconfigured, or if the Google Talk interface only allows chat and not SIP	22:57
AStorm	w/o access to the headers we can't use that API	22:57
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hrw	I love api with lot of "private" names	22:58
summatusmentis	m-c: I don't believe it supports sip?	22:58
timely	i'm not sure i'm allowed to disclose such things	22:58
hrw	execPrivate13() in AmigaOS was nice	22:58
timely	so what i'm providing is merely an ABI	22:58
AStorm	execPrivateRyan ;P	22:58
hrw	timely: can we summary it?	22:58
AStorm	timely: which will be broken in the next version?	22:58
AStorm	that's heart-warming	22:58
timely	AStorm: um... lemme check :)	22:58
AStorm	Nokia could at least provide headers for the darned binary stuff	22:59
m-c	summatusmentis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_talk	22:59
hrw	timely: os2008 control panel for selecting keyboards use hardcoded lists of entries without any possibility to add new entries. It is also written so ugly that no one want to show its code to outside people (probably to not increase amount of people who died laughing).	23:00
AStorm	btw, is there a version of mencoder for NIT? (could be nice for MJPEG and screencaps)	23:00
timely	well, os 2007 didn't have the same api afaict :)	23:00
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summatusmentis	m-c: I stand corrected	23:00
hrw	timely: os2007 use gtk 2.6 so it is normal that gtk related api changed	23:00
m-c	summatusmentis: perhaps you were saying Command Center does not support voice with Google Talk ? But, regardless, Google Talk does support voice	23:00
timely	hrw: this is just the api that opens the settings dialog and friends :)	23:00
summatusmentis	m-c: no, I was confused. I don't have an NIT yet	23:01
m-c	summatusmentis: oh, you are in for a treat when you get one :)	23:01
AStorm	timely: yet they couldn't make it public for some reason or another? doh!	23:01
hrw	AStorm: we have to get used to it	23:01
AStorm	and they couldn't use dbus to launch it either...	23:01
hrw	AStorm: nokia just prefer to ignore people from 'we-do-not-like-you' countries	23:01
m-c	anyone here done a voice chat using google talk with their NIT ?	23:02
summatusmentis	m-c: I'm hoping so. I'm hoping it's all it's cracked up to be	23:02
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* AStorm stabs randomly around		23:02
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m-c	summatusmentis: it has some getting used to - it is obviously not a laptop interface, but it is a true pocket pc	23:02
summatusmentis	m-c: well, I'm used to GPE on a Zaurus	23:02
summatusmentis	but my Z is big, and I wish it had better wifi range, hence, the NIT	23:03
timely	afaict in gagarin this stuff was just a "standard" maemo "thing"	23:03
AStorm	hmmhmmm	23:04
hrw	timely: gagarin was 3-4 years ago	23:04
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timely	hrw: thankfully https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/hildon-test-aut-tc-commit/2007-August/000024.html gagarin is not 100% private as black words go :)	23:04
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AStorm	hrw: where can I grab maemopad+ source code?	23:07
m-c	I see - it is an Google Talk account thing - needs to authorize communication access :) :)	23:07
hrw	AStorm: garage?	23:07
AStorm	Have to fix major screwups in db handling and add resizable canvas support	23:07
AStorm	and maybe real export	23:08
hrw	timely: thx for help and answering questions.	23:08
hrw	also for providing some fun about maemo code	23:08
summatusmentis	what browser does maemo use?(default)	23:08
timely	microb / mozilla based browser for maemo ...	23:08
AStorm	yep	23:08
timely	http://mxr.maemo.org/garage/source/maemopadplus/	23:08
AStorm	The requested URL /garage/source/maemopadplus/ was not found on this server.	23:09
timely	"https://garage.maemo.org/svn/maemopadplus/trunk"	23:09
hrw	summatusmentis: it is based on firefox 3.0-alpha code	23:09
timely	AStorm: you need to install that deb	23:09
summatusmentis	hrw: oh, cool :)	23:09
AStorm	uhm, tried a brower....	23:09
timely	http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/garage/source/maemopadplus/trunk/.svn/entries	23:09
timely	otherwise urls look like that ^	23:09
timely	AStorm: the deb adds a /etc/hosts line for mxr.maemo.org	23:09
AStorm	mhm	23:10
hrw	66.33.212.254 mxr.maemo.org	23:10
timely	the deb is open source ;)	23:10
AStorm	ok	23:10
timely	http://timeless.justdave.net/maemo/mxr-maemo-org-dns-0.1/	23:10
hrw	having deb package for such change is overload of packaging ;)	23:10
timely	hrw: it means you can uninstall it !	23:10
timely	and it was fun to write :)	23:10
timely	and it's reusable code, i have 2 debs that do the same thing :)	23:11
AStorm	timeless: wth? there's almost no code in it...	23:11
timely	AStorm: to add a line to /etc/hosts ?	23:11
AStorm	*timely	23:11
AStorm	no no	23:11
AStorm	maemopadplus	23:11
timely	AStorm: i am timeless	23:11
timely	http://mxr.maemo.org/garage/source/maemopadplus/trunk/unified/src/ui/	23:12
AStorm	as I expected	23:12
timely	callbacks.c 117k Nov 21 18:53	23:12
AStorm	it loads the whole database at once	23:12
timely	interface.c 34k Nov 21 18:53	23:12
timely	sketchwidget.c 46k Nov 21 18:53	23:12
* AStorm stabs		23:12
timely	not exactly tiny	23:12
AStorm	tiny enough	23:12
AStorm	could use some splitting	23:12
AStorm	callbacks.c is evil ;P	23:13
* timely waits for the xref to finish parsing callbacks		23:13
hrw	AStorm: svn checkout https://garage.maemo.org/svn/maemopadplus	23:13
timely	well, it might not be sqlite (combined form)	23:13
AStorm	9 indentation levels in sketchwidget.c ;P	23:13
timely	but 4000 lines isn't shabby	23:13
AStorm	this code needs some love	23:14
timely	AStorm: anyway, for quick searches through garage, i hope you find mxr useful	23:14
timely	sadly i don't update the index very often	23:14
timely	but...	23:14
AStorm	timely: it's great, yes	23:14
* timely goes back to hrw		23:14
summatusmentis	how's the CPU on the N810? full screen video works?	23:15
timely	ok, first public entrypoint	23:15
AStorm	summatusmentis: it does, more or less	23:15
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AStorm	maybe some skipping	23:15
johnx	summatusmentis, video up to around 5xx X 3xx works and plays fullscreen	23:15
johnx	800x480 video isn't going to happen	23:15
AStorm	it depends on the codec and compression level	23:15
summatusmentis	johnx: ok, cool	23:16
AStorm	johnx: no, it does play DVD-class	23:16
summatusmentis	thanks AStorm, also	23:16
hrw	summatusmentis: 400x240 scalled videos plays	23:16
timely	_private4 hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_new(void);	23:16
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timely	hrw: you need to export that :)	23:16
johnx	AStorm, hmm? 720x480?	23:16
AStorm	yes	23:16
AStorm	w/o or with just minor skipping	23:16
johnx	at 30fps?	23:16
AStorm	DivX	23:16
AStorm	yes	23:16
AStorm	mplayer of course	23:16
johnx	uhm...with magic?	23:17
timely	hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_destroy(_private4*);	23:17
summatusmentis	hrw: alright, fair enough. Much better than on the Z	23:17
hrw	timely: possible without internal maemo headers?	23:17
AStorm	johnx: no magic	23:17
timely	hrw: yes	23:17
johnx	AStorm, it would have to be skipping frames until it was down to about 20 I would imagine	23:17
AStorm	not really	23:17
timely	hrw: you'll basically get to replace the .so that is the current thing	23:17
AStorm	might be 25 fps, I'm not sure	23:17
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AStorm	it visibly skips in a few high-speed scenes	23:17
AStorm	but never <17 or so	23:17
timely	hrw: i need to poke eero or someone	23:17
timely	oh	23:18
timely	sorry	23:18
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timely	_private4* hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_new(void);	23:18
* timely curses people for putting pointers on the wrong side of spaces		23:18
timely	be wary of pointers... they're obviously important :)	23:18
timely	note to people who might be nosy: these entrypoints could be found by using nm	23:18
AStorm	timely: well, Nokia could just use dbus some more	23:18
timely	AStorm: quiet, i'm working :)	23:19
AStorm	that's easier to plug into	23:19
AStorm	;)	23:19
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timely	gboolean hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_load_plugins(_private4*);	23:19
timely	GSList* hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_get_plugins(_private4*);	23:20
AStorm	ok, so who will get me some screencap tool and mencoder for Maemo?	23:20
johnx	AStorm, I'd believe 24fps with some skipping	23:20
AStorm	johnx: I can get you a benchmark :>	23:20
AStorm	a nice feature of mplayer	23:20
timely	void hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_set_internal_value(_private4, GType, gchar, gpointer);	23:20
AStorm	although the movie is long	23:20
johnx	AStorm, I don't doubt that mplayer can decode the movie	23:20
johnx	I doubt that our LCD controller bus can accept the data	23:21
timely	void hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_unset_internal_value(_private4, gchar);	23:21
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timely	gpointer hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_get_internal_value(_private4, gchar, GType *);	23:22
AStorm	johnx: I'll check the size, I might be wrong :-)	23:22
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johnx	I don't really care all that much...I just don't want to create false hope for summatusmentis	23:23
timely	osso_context_t* hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_get_context(_private4*);	23:23
hrw	HildonIMSettingsPluginManager *hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_new (void);	23:23
hrw	20 22:27 < timely> _private4* hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_new(void);	23:23
hrw	whic one is proper one?	23:23
AStorm	johnx: ok, I fail	23:23
timely	void hildon_im_settings_plugin_manager_set_context(_private4, osso_context_t);	23:23
johnx	hmm?	23:23
AStorm	it's 528x272	23:23
timely	hrw: eww, did i write that? heh	23:23
timely	pretend i only ever wrote _private4* :)	23:24
hrw	timely: which one is proper one? your or http://mxr.maemo.org/os2008/source/hildon-input-method-1.99.33/src/hildon-im-settings-plugin.h one?	23:24
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timely	oh? it's open?	23:24
timely	bah	23:24
timely	...	23:24
timely	this is why people should use the cross reference	23:24
AStorm	:>	23:24
* timely goes to ask the xref to compare them		23:25
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timely	i don't think they changed the api since 2008	23:25
timely	they weren't supposed to have	23:26
timely	you should find that what i wrote is equivalent to what's there, except i tried to replace words i wasn't sure were public w/ "private" and "meth" and friends :)	23:26
hrw	ukeyboard do not use hildon_im_settings api	23:26
timely	you need to implement it	23:27
timely	because that's what the soft keyboard uses to talk to settings	23:27
timely	if you implement it, you can replace the stupid settings dialog	23:27
hrw	heh... I love to reinvent wheel	23:27
hrw	~curse nOKIA	23:27
infobot	May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, nOKIA !	23:27
timely	it could be worse	23:27
hrw	timely: really?	23:28
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timely	they could have statically linked in the ui :)	23:28
hrw	timely: I would prefer to have whole maemo closed then current situation	23:28
hrw	situation would be much cleaner then	23:28
* timely shrugs		23:28
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hrw	now it is like: to get battery info you need closed binary, to change hw keyboard layout you need to rewrite few maemo components from scratch, to do X you need to hack nokia binary, to do Y you need 3rd party util, to do ......	23:30
timely	so much more excitement this way	23:31
hrw	if maemo would be 100% closed (except (l)gpl 3rdparty components) it would be much easier - I would not buy that device at all	23:31
timely	it'd be boring otherwise	23:31
timely	see, precisely my point :)	23:31
hrw	timely: no - I would be able to run own linux system on it	23:31
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* timely shrugs		23:31
hrw	now I cannot use own linux system because nokia blocks it very badly with closed components like wifi/battery	23:32
timely	i don't think you'll find many nokians who actually like the current situation	23:32
timely	wifi was a hardware choice	23:32
timely	they took an available component whose source they couldn't share	23:32
timely	can you blame them?	23:32
hrw	timely: no, but I can blame them for a way which they go	23:33
AStorm	I can blame them for not working with conexant on a driver :>	23:33
timely	would you pay 800EUR for a device just like the n800 but w/ open source drivers for the wifi chip	23:33
AStorm	the driver it somewhat done	23:33
hrw	I would like to have umac.fw loaded by opened driver	23:33
AStorm	someone ported a bit of prism54 to SPI interface	23:33
AStorm	so, Nokia could hire someone to finish the job	23:33
hrw	or having umac.o with opensource wrapper	23:33
AStorm	hrw: uhm, that's the current state	23:33
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AStorm	umac.o wrapped by open driver	23:34
* timely thought we were very close to that		23:34
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hrw	AStorm: which does not work with 2.6.25	23:34
johnx	umac.ko is a separate module	23:34
AStorm	hrw: it only needs hacking	23:34
AStorm	minor too	23:34
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hrw	umac.ko can be stripped to umac.o but it is hack	23:34
AStorm	the open part, not the umac	23:34
AStorm	yes	23:34
AStorm	minor and simple hack	23:34
hrw	umac.fw would be better way anywya	23:35
AStorm	uhm, it can't be done that way	23:35
AStorm	umac is not just firmware	23:35
hrw	anyway we have it like we have.	23:35
AStorm	it's not uploaded anywhere	23:36
timely	hrw: anyway, that file is equivalent to what i have	23:36
timely	so yes, just implement that	23:36
hrw	it can be hacked to be used with non-maemo systems (like Poky or other OE based)	23:36
AStorm	so yes, just port prism54 to SPI	23:36
hrw	but lack of battery info suxx	23:36
AStorm	and add support for that chip	23:36
timely	oh wait	23:36
* timely chuckles		23:36
timely	hrw: the settings stuff seems to be open too	23:36
timely	http://mxr.maemo.org/os2008/source/hildon-input-method-1.99.33/src/hildon-im-settings-plugin.c#450	23:37
timely	so you could just hack it directly...	23:37
johnx	hrw, there is a way to get battery info by polling retu	23:37
timely	or copy what you need	23:37
hrw	johnx: with charging?	23:37
AStorm	exactly, there is	23:37
AStorm	hrw: yes, with charging state	23:37
hrw	nice	23:37
AStorm	Retu has a correct kernel driver :>	23:38
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johnx	bme needs to do the actual charging, I believe	23:38
hrw	ok - time to back to qemu hacking	23:38
johnx	but the info is available	23:38
AStorm	yes	23:38
timely	hrw: anyway... in this case... the code you wanted was open	23:38
AStorm	so we're only missing wifi and powervr	23:38
AStorm	and DSP kernel	23:39
hrw	AStorm: powervr...	23:39
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johnx	hrw, see "kcbatt" for an example of an app that reads retu-adc and prints battery level	23:39
hrw	ok	23:39
AStorm	we're missing minor voltage control stuff, but Menelaus is well documented, so writing a driver is simple	23:40
johnx	it's also an example of how much free time KotCzarny has O_o	23:40
timely	AStorm: i thought nokia was also missing powervr	23:41
AStorm	timely: no, they have the driver for N95 and up	23:41
AStorm	for Symbian	23:41
timely	yeah, that's helpful	23:41
AStorm	there is a closed 3D Linux driver	23:41
timely	s/nokia/maemo/	23:41
AStorm	rewrite it to be open+blob and it's good to go	23:42
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timely	120 g_debug ("Not a HildonIMSettignsPlugin: %s. Skip it.", g_module_error ());	23:44
* timely sighs		23:44
timely	high quality published code	23:44
AStorm	:>	23:44
timely	so guys... the code is open, why isn't there a patch to fix the spelling? :)	23:44
timely	http://mxr.maemo.org/os2008/source/hildon-input-method-1.99.33/src/hildon-im-settings-plugin.c#120	23:44
AStorm	because nobody has checkin rights to that SVN	23:44
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timely	file a bug in bugs.maemo.org w/ a patch	23:45
AStorm	and it's not important enough to post a patch through bugs	23:45
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AStorm	too much overhead ;>	23:45
* timely has no idea if there's actually a public svn for it		23:45
timely	http://mxr.maemo.org/maemo/source/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-input-method/	23:46
timely	shows that there is a public svn	23:46
AStorm	ok, maemopad+ is a total mess	23:46
timely	http://mxr.maemo.org/maemo/source/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-input-method/.svn/entries	23:46
timely	5 https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-input-method	23:46
AStorm	I'll better rewrite it in Python.	23:46
AStorm	will be 15 KB or so ;P	23:46
AStorm	(of code)	23:46
timely	anyway...	23:47
timely	please browse around mxr.maemo.org :)	23:47
AStorm	:-)	23:47
timely	it's not perfect, but i think you'll find it can be quite helpful	23:47
* timely wonders why mxr.maemo.org's l&f doesn't match timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test		23:48
AStorm	why oh why people continue to use plain C for UI apps...	23:48
AStorm	or C++ for that matter	23:48
AStorm	they're not meant for that	23:49
AStorm	:>	23:49
* johnx pokes at sapwood/hildon-desktop on the zaurus...		23:49
summatusmentis	is hildon the wm?	23:49
AStorm	no	23:49
AStorm	it's the graphic toolkit	23:49
AStorm	a variant of GTK	23:49
johnx	summatusmentis, matchbox is the wm	23:49
summatusmentis	johnx: right...	23:50
summatusmentis	AStorm: oh, ok, thanks	23:50
Jaffa	re	23:50
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timely	hrw: /join #hrw	23:50
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AStorm	timely: well, there's /invite ;)	23:51
* Jaffa should probably not have a moan at ppl on maemo-dev when he's feeling ill. Oh well, too late.		23:51
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AStorm	timely: I suspect there are Python bindings to hildon and that nice sketch widget?	23:52
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