IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2008-04-09

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opendeepcan anyone give me permission to commit to repository16:27
opendeepusername: opendeep,  garage.maemo.org16:28
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pupnikhmm, do not delete /usr/lib/python2.5.zip16:32
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Jaffa]-[andful_of_not: glad to hear you've got a better list implementation in the pipeline, the current one's a bit too eager in grabbing clicks16:39
]-[andful_of_notyes.. it's bad : /16:40
]-[andful_of_notthe only one not working that well still is the youtube, but now is not actually the list..16:41
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]-[andful_of_notscrolling... is the fact that each item has so much data, that the drawing / redrawing is sluggish... then prone to errors : /16:41
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BlafaselWhat exactly is the closed part of canola?16:43
]-[andful_of_notthe "terra" plugin loader, all widgets, and the media abs layer, all basic apps (plugins)16:43
jaskaugh16:44
]-[andful_of_notthe C work is 100% open (EFL 16 bit engine, the scanner - garage)16:44
]-[andful_of_notpython bindings for EFL / others also.. as well youtube, last.fm and upnp16:45
BlafaselAh.. Sad that the widgets are closed though.16:45
]-[andful_of_notBlafasel:  the basic ones, but you can extend them as you like16:45
BlafaselI care less about the other stuff but a more widespread use of those would be great.16:45
]-[andful_of_notyah for sure :) that's why we are after the full openess16:45
Blafasel]-[andful_of_not: Yeah, but I like your app for it's UI polish among other things ;)16:46
BlafaselSo - reinventing stuff like those widgets might be feasible, but they are already good right now.16:46
]-[andful_of_notalso, the destkop version, with small tweaks (and even with openGL) can work great as a media center on the desktop - I have some of the desktop designs.. :) if it was open I could add them to the project16:46
]-[andful_of_notBlafasel: yes. but they are completely covered in the apis16:46
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CrashandDieanybody ever thought of making a wriststrap for the IT ?17:14
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Cptnodegarduse ducttape?17:15
Cptnodegardthere isnt a lanyard hole17:15
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NaviYou could probably dril a tiny hole in the kickstand or someting17:18
mgedminwhy drill?  wrap the lanyard around the kickstand17:19
Cptnodegardmight end up ripping the stand right off if you drop it17:19
Navi  It looks cleaner if you do :P17:19
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NaviThat is, if you have the ability to drill proper tiny holes17:20
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CrashandDieerhm17:39
CrashandDiewhy bother drilling or ducktaping anything ?17:39
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CrashandDieanyway, I'll look into it17:39
CrashandDienot the small shitty wriststrap you get on a phone or a wiimote for example17:43
CrashandDiebut more like...17:43
CrashandDiethis: http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/assets/6680.jpg17:43
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SpakmanKhertan: did you work out how to get transparent backgrounds in desktop applets?18:04
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KhertanSpakman ... :)18:09
KhertanHi spakman ...18:09
Khertanhttp://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/18:10
Khertanin the "fresh" section18:10
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Khertanthere is some transparent applet in python18:10
Khertanso source is available18:10
hrwSpakman: look at omweather?18:12
Khertanmy package seems to not be in extras .... since 13h00 (it s 17h14 here)18:14
Khertanis i normal ?18:14
Khertandoes a mail is send when package is accepted or refused ?18:14
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SpakmanKhertan: thanks :)18:19
lopzhi18:19
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hrwbye18:22
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Khertan_n810Rahhh lovely illimited data 3g connection18:49
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, isn't it ;)18:50
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, are you using sfr ?18:50
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Khertan_n810maybe someone can inform me, someone know how i can contact maintainer of extras maemo repository18:51
Khertan_n810?18:51
Khertan_n810crashanddie > no, orange18:51
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, check the package, should be an email in the package info18:51
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CrashandDieKhertan, hmm, ok, how did you connect the n810 with your phone ?18:51
Khertan_n810i m talking about maintainer of tthe repository not packages maintainer18:52
Khertan_n810crashanddie > with bluetooth18:52
Khertan_n810:)18:52
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CrashandDieKhertan_n810, I guess garage@maemo.org would be the way to go here18:52
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CrashandDieKhertan_n810, ok, I have the SFR 3G usb dongle, connected to my laptop, laptop spawns a wifi signal for the n81018:53
Khertan_n810hum modest is more and more buggy18:53
CrashandDieI don't have any problems with modest, what's wrong ?18:53
Khertan_n810the first beta work better than the last one !18:53
Khertan_n810can't send nothing to my smtp18:54
CrashandDiehmm18:54
Khertan_n810don t retrieve content of email18:54
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, did you check with another way of getting of the internet ? Maybe it's your connection...18:54
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Khertan_n810and is frequently not responding (freeze)18:55
christian00hi guys18:55
Khertan_n810hi christian0018:55
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, I dunno, don't have any problems, do you want to contact the repo maintainer for that ?18:56
Khertan_n810no i want to contact repo maintainer to know why pypackager and pygtkeditor is still not validated in the repo18:57
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CrashandDiehmm, ok18:57
christian00i have a legal question about maemo,i tried to look for info everywhere but i couldn't find it.Is the maemo platform freely redistributable with any device?or nokia tablets are the only one allowed to use it?18:57
Khertan_n810i ve submit it with a new version of pypackager ...18:57
Khertan_n810which is not available yet18:58
CrashandDiechristian00, hang on, I have the answer for that18:58
Khertan_n810as i wantto be sure that upload process is ok18:58
christian00thanx crashanddie18:58
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, how long have the packages been uploaded ?18:59
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, did the scp happen AOK ?18:59
Khertan_n810not so long18:59
dougt is there a way to prevent the n810/n800 from powering down the screen during idle from the cmd line?18:59
Khertan_n810i m a bit pressed :)18:59
Khertan_n810scp ok :)18:59
Khertan_n810i ve push it this day at 13h00 GMT +118:59
Khertan_n810no not the tunnel !19:00
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Khertan_n810rer powa19:00
CrashandDiechristian00, the target market was the nokia nxx0 series, but considering that Maemo (ITOS200x) is based on Debian, the fact that it uses a lot of open source components and only a bit of closed source (drivers for particular pieces of hardware mainly), and the recent announcement that Ubuntu Mobile was going to use Hildon (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/+roadmap), I'd say Maemo is clean for use on other de19:02
CrashandDievices, yes19:02
christian00oh cool.and apart from flash 919:03
CrashandDiedougt, yes, don't ask me how though, but I know it's feasible19:03
johnxWell, the parts that are open-source/free software are of course freely distributable. For the parts that are closed-source/Nokia proprietary you'd of course have to ask Nokia19:03
christian00are there any parts unique to nokia?19:04
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CrashandDiejohnx, but I'm right saying that the whole Maemo "concept" is free ?19:04
CrashandDiejohnx, only the drivers are closed, drivers you wouldn't need anyway19:04
johnxbrowser-ui, mediaplayer, the onscreen keyboards, the statusbar plugins for brightness/battery, and many other things are closed source19:05
christian00argh19:05
CrashandDiehmm19:05
johnx(the control panel, the image viewer *I think*, the web and contacts menus19:05
CrashandDieNOKIA OWNS THE WEB ???19:05
CrashandDieOMG19:06
christian00that's not few things19:06
christian00basically most of the GUI is closed source19:06
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johnxyou can still get a basic hildon-desktop running without those things19:06
johnxthe foundations are open source19:06
CrashandDiechristian00, if you want to port it to another device, you'd have to rewrite a lot of stuff anyhow19:06
Khertan_n810rah modest is freeze ... again19:06
CrashandDieKhertan, froze19:06
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, RER ? Where to ?19:07
johnxbut yes, a lot of the actual apps are closed...however, Nokia is open to providing more source. Look at this bug: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158419:07
christian00because we want to create an open source device19:07
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johnxchristian00, is this a device that's out already?19:07
christian00no,we are still at early design phase19:08
johnxah19:08
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christian00so we are evaluating the os to use19:08
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christian00the maemo seemed the best ,as it already had many app19:08
christian00and had a nice ui19:08
johnxthere are a lot of open source parts worth using19:09
johnxand many of the apps that are closed have open source alternatives19:09
johnxinstead of Nokia's browser-ui you could use Midori19:09
johnxinstead of the built-in media player you could use youamp or ukmp19:10
christian00what do you mean about browser-ui?19:10
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johnxthe UI parts of the browser are closed, but the rendering engine is open19:10
christian00what bother me most is the hardware control,such as battery,bluetooth,wi-fi19:10
christian00i thought these were abstracted19:10
christian00and only needed to add driver and adapt some interface19:11
CrashandDiechristian00, only the UI of those parts are closed19:11
johnxwell, they're actually somewhat abstracted by Nokia closed source stuff. Nokia's battery management app is closed19:11
CrashandDiechristian00, anyway, you'll probably have to write a whole new battery management system on a another device19:12
johnxCrashandDie, the wifi driver is closed, as is the battery charging and monitoring software19:12
johnxThe bluetooth driver is open source, I believe19:12
CrashandDiechristian00, mind if I ask which company would be wanting to launch this ?19:12
christian00not the driver19:13
christian00but the control panel19:13
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christian00it would slow down development19:14
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christian00if we had to write the control panel for each device19:15
christian00and if they are abstracted by nokia parts19:15
christian00it mean current apps won't work19:16
christian00CrashandDie ,our company is pasen ( en.pasen.it19:16
christian00)19:16
CrashandDiejohnx, nokia didn't open bme I take it then ? How is that debian port going ?19:16
CrashandDieoh19:17
johnxCrashandDie, I haven't been working on it lately. I might poke at it again, since there seems to be more interest lately19:18
christian00we wanted to focus on hardware and leave the device open to any change,but had to ship with at least a ready os to be commercially attractive for normal user too19:18
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CrashandDiechristian00, if you're based in italy... How come the UI is in some asian language ?19:18
CrashandDiejohnx, well I might get myself a few extra sd cards for the n810, and start playing around with android, and other distributions19:19
christian00because we aren't manufacturer19:19
christian00this will be our first project built from scratch19:20
CrashandDiechristian00, wow, nice19:20
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christian00the mp3 you see are made by some other factory,and they passed us the picture too19:20
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CrashandDiechristian00, did you look at openmoko ? Hell even Android I know it's phone based, but it might be more interesting than maemo19:20
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CrashandDiechristian00, they have a pretty good photographer ;)19:21
christian00that's why we didn't remade them :D19:21
christian00yes i looked into openmoko and android19:21
johnxCrashandDie, there's no source for Android at all, until Google provides it19:21
christian00android was our first choice19:21
christian00but i just discovered it's still lacking many parts19:22
johnxchristian00, Nokia hasn't been completely against open sourcing the rest of Maemo. It might be worth talking to them to see if you could sponsor the opening of more of it or something along those lines19:23
BlafaselI still hope to hold an OpenMoko phone one day..19:23
johnxI hate to see handheld Linux fracturing off into so many directions when in many ways Maemo really is "good enough"19:23
christian00we could add application in that,but won't have a common graphical omogenity(does this term exist ? )19:23
* mwaldron remembers this arguement back with familiar...19:23
johnxmwaldron, and I remember the Zaurus community fracturing...19:24
christian00and i saw openmoko too,this is our other choice as of now,and it's good because it also have telephony19:24
christian00but there does seem to be much less applications for it yet,and the community is much more technical19:25
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johnxopenmoko or angstrom might fit the bill. What do you want your users to be able to do with this device?19:25
CrashandDieanyway, I'm off, I'll be back later19:25
christian00the maemo community is much more user friendly19:25
christian00what is angstrom?19:25
NaviI hate that buzz term.19:25
Navi"User friendly"19:25
christian00haha19:26
CrashandDieNavi, user friendly has been around for 2 decades19:26
christian00we want it to be as more as flexible as possible19:26
CrashandDieNavi, hardly a "buzz term", "buzz term", on the other hand, is a "buzz term"19:26
johnxchristian00, angstrom is another distribution built out of open-embedded: http://angstrom-distribution.org19:26
NaviCrashandDie, "buzz term" isn't even used19:27
Navihardly a "buzz term"19:27
CrashandDie:D19:27
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Khertan_n810hi again19:27
christian00angstrom is even more technical :D19:28
Khertan_n8103g doesnt work very well underground19:28
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NaviWonder why.19:28
christian00it should be because of the band frequency used19:29
christian00if i remember well19:29
johnxchristian00, angstrom may appear that way at first glance, but it can be configured in a reasonably friendly way, and there are lots of apps19:29
CrashandDiejohnx, openembedded a candidate ?19:30
johnxopenembedded is a build system19:30
johnxthe build system used to build angstrom and openmoko19:30
Khertan_n810someone could give me again the email of maemo repository team ? log haven't work19:30
johnxopenembedded can also build apps for maemo :)19:30
CrashandDieKhertan_n810, garage@maemo.org19:30
Naviwoo19:31
Khertan_n810thx19:31
CrashandDieanyway, cheers, bbl19:31
christian00speaking of mail,what email could i use to ask maemo about the closed source?19:31
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christian00there isn't a single email on their website except in some news19:32
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johnxthe maemo-developers mailing list might be a good place19:32
johnxMake sure you tell them the whole story about why you're interested in the source.19:32
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johnxGive them as much information as you can, and tell them which parts you care about being open sourced the most19:37
Navi\o/19:37
NaviYeah, they've been looking to open up vital parts or something19:37
johnxNavi, eh?19:37
NaviI'm bored19:38
johnxah, yes19:38
christian00ok i will try there19:38
johnxalright, good luck19:39
christian00thank you19:40
johnxyou're welcome :)19:40
Khertan_n810http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/2008/04/09/os2008-homescreen-hackery/#comment-26115719:40
Khertan_n810huhu19:40
Khertan_n810poor comment due to the fact that none repository is available for my python applet19:41
* johnx sometimes thinks it would have been easier if Qtopia had stayed the only game in town back in the Zaurus days...19:42
Khertan_n810i hope maemo repository team will validdate my pypacker made packages to push all my softwares to extras repository19:42
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NaviSomeone with money should set up a unified community repository.19:45
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VRe__Navi: yeah, like extras in maemo.org :)19:45
Khertan_n810navi > the problem is mainly that upload to maemo repository need a computer working on an debian based distribution19:46
Navitoo bad extras sucks.19:46
johnxNavi, it still wouldn't be official, and thus just cause more confusion...19:46
Khertan_n810and that uploading to extras is a real pain19:46
Navi^19:46
Navijohnx, perhaps19:46
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johnxKhertan_n810, get yourself a debian chroot :D19:46
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Khertan_n810it s why i m modifying pypackager to be able to upload to extras19:47
Navibut get it popular enough and we should see a good  adoption rate.19:47
Khertan_n810johnx on a tablet ?19:47
Khertan_n810can t due to busybox19:47
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johnxKhertan_n810, sure, why not? There's a Debian chroot or you can boot Debian from your SD card19:47
johnxa little bit of overkill, but workable19:48
Khertan_n810i don t want to reboot each time to make a package and send it19:48
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Khertan_n810overkill ... it s the word19:48
johnxright, so use a chroot19:48
JaffaKhertan_n810: uploading to extras does NOT require you to be running a Debian-based distro19:48
johnxKhertan_n810, agreed. I'm just saying you *could* :)19:49
Khertan_n810jaffa ... no but it s help to create the package19:49
Khertan_n810:)19:49
Khertan_n810i know because i ve do it from my tablet19:49
Khertan_n810with gnupg / scp19:50
Khertan_n810i m just waiting for validation19:50
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Khertan_n810to be sure that the process is ok19:50
Khertan_n810clicking on a toolbar icon in npypackager will ease a lot the publication in extras :)19:51
Khertan_n810do u know if there is an answer if package isn't validated by the repository maintainer ?19:52
Khertan_n810+s19:52
johnx'night all19:53
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Khertan_n810arg python launcher prevents displaying error when script launched from pgtkeditor19:59
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Khertan_n810bye20:10
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zxulais there a way to mount the rootfs.jffs2 unpacked jffs2 image file from the n810 FIASCO image under a pc?20:35
wndyes20:39
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zxulais there a howto for it?20:43
zxulaI tried the losetup/loopback, mount routes but it didn't work it says the superblock is wrong as if it doesn't identify the filesystem20:44
pH5zxula: google "mtdram"20:44
zxulaI also tried mapping it to /dev/mtd0 with no success20:44
zxulapH5: k thx20:44
mgedminpH5: have you used it successfully?20:44
pH5yes20:44
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mgedminI always get errors that my kernel doesn't have enough ram for the new large images20:45
pH5mgedmin: are you sure your total_size module parameter is chosen big enough?20:46
wndiirc it used to be that you had to define the maximum size when you loaded the kernel module20:46
mgedminpH5: that's the problem, when total_size = 64 megs, the image won't fit, but when total_size = 128 megs, I cannot insmod20:46
mgedminFATAL: Error inserting mtdram (/lib/modules/2.6.22-14-generic/kernel/drivers/mtd/devices/mtdram.ko): Cannot allocate memory20:46
mgedmindmesg|tail says allocation failed: out of vmalloc space - use vmalloc=<size> to increase size.20:46
mgedminI probably should try adding vmalloc=something in grub20:47
mgedminbut that's too much hassle20:47
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phunguyso20:49
phunguywith this maps that comes with the n81020:49
phunguyrouting isn't allowed unless you pay?20:49
mgedminphunguy: right20:50
mgedmintry maemo mapper instead20:50
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pH5mgedmin: not sure, I have not fiddled with any vmalloc settings, and I can load mtdram with 128MB (vanilla 2.6.24 kernel)20:51
mgedminhmm20:52
lcukhi guys,  i have written a bunch of code which i want to release as gpl.  however at some later date i want the option of taking it into work and utilising it with our closed application portfolio, or sell customisations to further clients. as the original author is this a viable proposition?20:52
mgedmin2.6.22 from ubuntu gutsy here20:52
mgedminlcuk: as the original author you don't need a licence to do whatever you want with the code20:52
pH5lcuk: sure, as long as you don't take any contributions of third parties under gpl with you.20:52
phunguy<mgedmin> does maemo mapper need a constant data connection or does it use the maps already installed on the device20:52
mgedminlicences are for other people20:52
mgedminphunguy: it has its own map cache20:52
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mgedminyou can download maps when online and then stay offline20:53
lcukso even though the core is available and open to everyone else i can just grab my sections of it and use them in whatever apps i want at work20:53
mgedminrouting needs web access to create the route, and then you can work offline20:53
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derflcuk: Modulo any IP agreement you've signed with your employer.20:54
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lcukmy ideas are my own, my time out of the premises are my own, my core ideas are my own, however the work coded implimentation is theirs.  i agreed this in writing when i started before i even heard about proper open source :)20:55
lcukand besides its in vb :P20:56
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lcuksfrom a technical basis i could open source my app now and at some arbitary point in the future (as long as either no contribs from other people, or a written agreement with them) i can close the source and cease public development as required20:57
lcukkeeping the last oss version available obviously20:58
zxulaI got the same error when I try to insmod with the vmalloc20:58
* lcuk has never released code in this was before20:58
zxulaI guess it needs vmalloc=256m in the grub.conf or something20:58
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KotCzarnyDemocracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!21:04
KotCzarny:)21:04
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lcukevening kot21:09
* KotCzarny yawns21:10
lcukhey you cant b tired - i had less sleep than you - about 4 hours i think21:10
KotCzarnyyesterday i have slept 4h21:10
KotCzarny:)21:11
lcuksounds familiar21:11
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lcukhmm21:15
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TuxProbehiya :) say.. is the nokia770 vo driver better for any of the tablet series from nokia? or should i just go with a safebet as x11?21:20
GeneralAntillesThe Nokia 770.21:21
KotCzarnytuxprobe: don't ask, use -benchmark21:21
KotCzarnyand it was renamed to omapfb in newest mplayer .2621:22
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TuxProbeok.. it still has the old alias?21:24
KotCzarnyprobably21:24
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TuxProbenice nice, i just found out why my app kept crashing while doing video heh21:28
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jobu_for booting off mmc, do you need to partition the FAT portion if you don't plan on using it?21:33
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KotCzarnynot really21:34
KotCzarnybut it's usefull21:34
KotCzarny(a little)21:34
jobu_kk21:35
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qgilAbout http://maemo.org/community/wiki/linuxtag2008/22:20
qgilwhat about this22:20
qgil1. MAEMO COMMUNITY UPDATE: Niels Breet, someone in this chatroom *now* and myself22:21
lcukoooer qgil, seems like tumbleweeds - its been quiet for a while this evening22:22
GeneralAntillesHowdy, qgil.22:22
qgil2. COOL MAEMO APPS: Alberto Garcia (Vagalume), another cool app developer here now and Urho Konttori (UKMP, Nokia developer and whatnot)22:23
qgilhi there  :)22:23
lcukshame this is in germany22:24
lcukare you based there qgil, or are you flying in specially?22:25
GeneralAntillesI just hope we have somebody there to record everything.22:26
qgil3. COOL PLATFORM HACKS: Kees Jongenburger, a cool platform hacker present here now and Tuomas Kulve (Ogg support)22:26
qgilI'm based in Helsinki and I will fly to Berlin22:26
GeneralAntillesWhat about pupnik for cool platform hacks?22:26
GeneralAntillesMr. Emulator22:26
qgilI plan to record audio at least - in OSiM USA was pretty useful22:26
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lcukcool, i second the pupnik note - he has been tirelessly beavering away compiling and tweaking and has a nice growing set of files22:28
GeneralAntillesHe's right around there, too.22:28
GeneralAntillesFor #1, what about Jaffa?22:28
qgil4. MAEMO.ORG: WHAT NEXT? - Marius Gedminas, a clever mind present here and now and... someone from Nokia tbd22:29
qgilJaffa can't attend, I asked him already22:29
qgilYerga can't either, I asked him as well22:29
qgilthe rest of names are not confirmed and many don't even know I'm mentioning them here and now  :)22:29
lcukget GeneralAntilles a ticket for him and his cat and he will come ;)22:29
qgilwell, keesj has just confirmed22:29
GeneralAntillesHa22:29
qgilrestriction: must be in Europe (budget is limited and we are paying travel, accommodation 1-3 nights and registration to these guys22:30
lcukhah - i was joking as well lol22:30
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GeneralAntillesmilhouse might be another option for community.22:31
GeneralAntillesHe's in the UK.22:31
qgil(I confess getting lost with names & nicknames sometimes)22:32
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qgilto be frank, I'd be happy having in a same room all the people that have reminded us several times many things Nokia could do better, with clever arguments22:32
qgilah, I was also thinkin on Florian Boor22:33
qgilAndrew Flegg22:33
GeneralAntillesmilhouse is Neil MacLeod on bugzilla.22:33
lcukkhertan is someone who has done something noone else has: hes developed apps directly on his nokia22:33
qgilah yes22:33
keesjAndrew == Jaffa22:33
GeneralAntilleslcuk, not a bad idea—big Python hacker.22:34
qgilah wait, then who is Frantisek?22:34
lcukhes wrote the editor and works directly on his nokia for about 3 hours a day with nothing else22:34
qgiloh my  :)22:34
lcukand hes in france22:34
GeneralAntilleshttp://khertan.net/22:34
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qgillet me start editing the wiki page not to get lost...22:34
lcukand he is also trying to get a whole end to end dev environment setup (I believe) so he can even push updates built with the py deb packager thing directly into extras :) ( he was talking about it earlier)22:36
qgilAlright: 3. COOL PLATFORM HACKS: Kees Jongenburger, a cool platform hacker present here now and Tuomas Kulve (Ogg support) - candidates for the vacant?22:36
GeneralAntillespupnik22:36
GeneralAntillesArnimS on itT22:36
GeneralAntilleshttp://pupnik.de/22:37
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qgil.de sounds good  :)22:37
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qgilpupnik: ping22:37
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dougtit looks like tp w/ my font cache patch has issues22:37
dougtnm wrong channel.  dumb colloquy.22:37
pupnikwhat what?22:38
GeneralAntillesYou're being drafted.22:38
GeneralAntillesGet your gear. :P22:38
pH5:D22:39
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keesjpupnik: ported every single emulator on the planet to maemo right?22:39
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GeneralAntillesAs far a we can tell. :D22:39
lcukhe even tried to port an emulator of an emulator but ended up vanishing in a puff of smoke22:39
qgilpupnik: can we invite you to LinuxTag?22:40
pupniksure that'd be fun!22:40
qgilalright, great22:40
lcukits on the Falkland Islands this year.  Nokia will supply a canoe22:41
* pupnik googles22:41
lcukhttp://maemo.org/community/wiki/linuxtag2008/22:41
qgilkulve: are you here?22:41
MangoFusion_nokia are making canoe's now?22:41
lcukonly OLED ones22:42
mabawell they made military boots a long time ago so why not ;)22:42
* GeneralAntilles demands a canoe.22:42
qgil(let's assume Tuomas Kulve aka Ogg Support man can do it)22:42
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pH5arh, too bad it's on thursday. is there already a rough plan what'll be in the morning and what in the afternoon?22:43
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qgilabout 2. COOL MAEMO APPS: Alberto Garcia (Vagalume), another cool app developer here now and Urho Konttori (UKMP, Nokia developer and whatnot)22:45
qgilI'll send an email to Alberto right now (or is he here? I don't know his nick)22:46
qgilkonttori: are you here?22:46
qgiland candidates for the third place?22:46
GeneralAntillesI'd really like to see gnuite there.22:46
GeneralAntillesToo bad he's state-side.22:46
qgilph5 the LinuxTag program is being defined these days22:46
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qgilyeah, we'll find another chance - hopefully later this year22:47
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qgilso we don't have cool maemo app developers in europe22:48
GeneralAntillesHehe22:48
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lcukof course you do :) like i said khertan22:48
lcuklol hes the only 122:48
GeneralAntillesWhat about ssvb?22:48
pupnikoh man, i'd pay to meet him :)22:49
GeneralAntillesAn FBReader person might be cool, too, but I don't know if any of them are actually involved in the community.22:49
lcuknot sure where people are - i dont see daytime lot here in england (working) but generally end up with the statesiders22:49
qgilomg I'm getting in an endless loop trying to get the email address from Alberto at http://people.igalia.com/berto/22:50
lcukfbreader is just a quick port - its mainly shared code from what i can gather22:50
pupnikqgil i'd need an invite in writing if you could manage that22:50
GeneralAntillesqgil, https://garage.maemo.org/users/agarcia/22:50
qgilyes I can do that - only not today  :)22:50
qgilGeneralAntilles: clever move22:51
GeneralAntilles;)22:51
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lcukpupnik, you would need more than invite in writing.  you cant wait till the other end to pick up tickets ;)22:52
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GeneralAntillesWell, for cool maemo apps either Khertan or ssvb (mplayer) are good options.22:52
lcukmmm yes, get the heavy guns out :)22:53
qgiland Florian for the GPE suite?22:53
qgil(I'm trying to save some money here, yes)22:53
qgilsince Florian will be in LinuxTag for sure22:54
pH5hehe, I think flo_lap is online right now22:54
qgilin another channel you mean?22:55
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qgil(it would be funny to say "we will invite the next one joining the channel)  :)22:56
pH5yes, #gpe-project or #oe for example22:56
qgildo you mind calling him to come here?22:56
jottqgil: will there also be some kind of hacking session (like a reserved room for some nice chatting and hacking)22:56
qgilwhy not, I can ask - but before we need to make sure thre is a critical mass for that22:57
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jottsure. atleast most of the speakers will be there ;-)22:57
qgilafair LinuxTag has plenty of room around to organize informal hacks of 10 people or so22:57
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flo_lapre22:59
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keesjqgil: the only thing is really that I guess the real-real mamona hackers are located in Brasil. I am merly there local spokesmen23:00
qgilflo_lap: can we invite you to LinuxTag?  :D23:00
qgilkeesj: you can speak about whatever - you have earned the invitation by own merits23:00
flo_lapqgil: Sure... but I'll be there anyway.23:00
pH5he knew that23:01
lcukqgil is wise and read the rosta23:01
lcukright, time to get back into this box of mine23:02
lcukback later23:02
qgillcuk: thanks!23:02
* GeneralAntilles duct tapes lcuk's box shut.23:02
dougtdoes maemo differentiate between a stylus touch and a finger touch?23:02
GeneralAntillesYes, dougt.23:02
Cptnodegardif its a finger, it bites you23:02
qgilflo_lap: see http://maemo.org/community/wiki/linuxtag2008/ - Cool maemo apps23:03
GeneralAntillesThough less-so on 50-2/51-3 than previous releases.23:03
GeneralAntillesSomething was broken and appears to (potentially) be fixed in Diablo (at least from bugzilla reports).23:03
dougtGeneralAntilles: are there docs or an api to tell the difference?23:03
flo_lapIf I start to sound strange today that's because I spend the day digging in hardware registers :)23:03
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GeneralAntillesNot sure offhand, dougt, but FBReader might be a good place to look for code examples.23:04
dougtcool thanks23:05
qgilAbout 1. MAEMO COMMUNITY UPDATE: Niels Breet, someone in this chatroom *now* and myself23:05
GeneralAntillesmilhouse! :D23:05
qgil( flo_lap - are you confirming then?)23:05
qgilmilhouse: are you here?23:05
flo_lapqgil: right, I did not manage to read the wiki yet... one sec23:05
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lcukdougt, if you are using x11 or gtk or something you will not have the pressure information required. you have to enable the RAWmode mouse support to  get pressure information.  (though you could possibly hack something together based upon the amount of jitter)23:05
lcukyou can enable the pressure information, theres a wiki somewhere with it - ill dig it out for you23:06
dougtplease.23:06
lcukor were you not meaning from code..23:06
dougtthat would be sexy hot for a browser.23:06
dougtcode would be great23:06
GeneralAntillesmilhouse, I'd try email, I haven't seen him around in the last couple days.23:06
qgil(now that I think in cool platform hacks we can invite Kate Alhola as well)23:07
GeneralAntilless/milhouse/qgil/23:07
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: qgil, I'd try email, I haven't seen him around in the last couple days.23:07
qgilGeneralAntilles: where can I get the address?23:07
MoRpHeUzqgil: do you have the log of who edited the wiki ? (how many people) ?23:08
qgilhi MoRpHeUz ! not many, some people added data and i am the only one deleting right now to get the areas clean23:08
qgilJaffa: are you here?23:09
MoRpHeUzqgil: yeah...because I'm following it and it looks like that too few people edited that (I was the first one to edit hehehe)23:09
GeneralAntillesqgil, http://maemo.org/profile/view/milhouse.html23:09
pupnikqgil is there some magic hacked tablet that will be available to present software on a projection or large monitor?23:09
GeneralAntillesOnly email I see is the bugzilla email23:09
lcukdougt, http://test.maemo.org/maemowiki/HOWTO_UseTouchscreenPressureData    :) this code will give the information required but will need tweaking i think per device because i believeit is uncalibrated and if you start using other display modes it may be out of alignment alltogether.23:09
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MoRpHeUzqgil: any feedback from the other channels ? (ITT, etc..) ?23:09
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qgilGeneralAntilles: there is a Nokia team that has done that and they are based in Germany so I'm hoping to have them there as well23:10
]-[andful_of_notqgil : the project from the german guys is awesome :)23:10
GeneralAntillesnoBounds23:10
]-[andful_of_notyeah :p23:11
lcuknobounds is a windows app23:11
dougtlcuk: have you used it?23:11
lcukyou can see the xp borders on the video ;)23:11
lcukused what? nobounds?23:11
]-[andful_of_notlol23:11
dougtPressure Data from x.23:11
lcukit connects with nokia and mirrors everything but its not running the hidef display directly from nokia23:11
lcukyes i use it :)23:11
lcukand it works nicely23:12
KotCzarnywell, almost23:12
KotCzarny;)23:12
lcuklolololol23:12
lcukshhhh that was a bug :P23:12
* ]-[andful_of_not waiting for real testing it :)23:12
KotCzarnybe it one :)23:12
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lcukwell i am happy to put up a binary tonight and after a bit more discussion with a couple of people later on ill decide on the source tactic :)23:13
thiagossI'm developing a maemo application that would use interprocess communication, using both signals and methods, what do you guys recomend: dbus or libosso?23:13
qgilMoRpHeUz: the changelog of the wiki page: https://maemo.org/community/wiki/__ais/rcs/6e1ebf54017511dd96cd8ffb9e08f938f938/23:13
* lcuk is leaning towards gpl for now23:13
GeneralAntilleslcuk, release early, release often and GPL! :P23:13
KotCzarnydbus is more portable i guess23:13
GeneralAntillesOtherwise we're going to burn effigies of you. :D23:14
KotCzarnyie. already available for regular linux23:14
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lcukwell i was reading up on a number of licenses and i need to keep options open for if i want to close it down later - but people have commented that since its my code anyway i can choose to just close off if required (and obviously getting permission from any additional contributors if any)23:15
thiagossKotCzarny: As far as I've read about libOSSO, it doesn't support signals, or I haven't found anything about it.23:15
GeneralAntilleslcuk, why would you close it?23:15
KotCzarnythiagoss: i know next to nothing about libosso, unfortunatelly23:15
thiagossKotCzarny: I see, thanks :)23:16
lcukbecause i work in a closed source shop and if i decide to incorporate it into one of our apps i know it would only be possible if i didnt have to give everything away23:16
KotCzarnylcuk, maybe bsd licence then?23:16
GeneralAntillesfork it, then.23:16
KotCzarnyseeing that m$ was happily using it in their kernel23:16
GeneralAntillesMaintain a closed version and a GPL version.23:17
KotCzarnyso you can allow others using your code, and close it for yourself later too23:17
lcukim not sure yet. GeneralAntilles i wouldnt need to fork it - i could just say "right, no more gpl updates"   and that would be that - the code upto that point would remain open and available23:17
flo_laplcuk: search for a new shop ;)23:17
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GeneralAntillesThat's an option, too, but the less desirable one for the community at large. :P23:18
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lcuki was asking this earlier and thinking along the lines of a dual license, but since its my code i dont need to..23:18
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lcuknwhy - i update everything and would be doing the code23:18
lcukif someone wanted some part of it it wouldnt be hidden23:18
KotCzarnylcuk, anyway, it's your own code, so no one could tell you what to do after closing it23:18
KotCzarnyno matter what licence it was23:18
lcukexactly..23:19
lcukso im thinking of keeping it simple23:19
flo_lapqgil: okay... well, I should be able to attend and prepare a little bit about GPE and syncing... but not that much.23:19
* lcuk has read up on about 40 licenses today and my eyes are swimming in legalese23:19
KotCzarnythe only way licences are for is to keep other from profiting (unlawfully) from your work23:19
KotCzarny*others23:19
lcukflo_lap, no, my boss is a good man who pays well and gives me enough freedom to code as i need to :)23:20
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qgilflo_lap: the most important part is to be active during the track - we are looking for bright minds with opinions about maemo present & future23:20
lcukqgil, unless you could get nokia to pay me better than him ;)23:21
qgilqgil: how much is that? (joking)23:21
lcuk:D23:21
qgil(starts to be late here..................zzzzzzz)23:22
lcuknice to finally see you qgil though, ive heard rumours you existed23:22
GeneralAntillesHa23:22
qgilwait, I'm not leaving23:22
qgilI want to have that wiki page almost clear23:22
thiagossWhat advantages libosso has over dbus for inter application communication?23:23
lcukand whilst we have you, can you dig out a powervr driver from within nokia please ;)23:23
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qgilwhat was milhouse's name? (my brain starts to slip seriously)23:23
lcukall these 3d devices are making our little tablets nervous23:23
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GeneralAntillesNeil MacLeod, qgil.23:24
qgillcuk: c'mon, all devices I know are 3D23:24
lcukyou mean in space or rendering capabilities?23:24
GeneralAntillesHaha23:24
flo_lapqgil: ok, should be possible somehow i hope :)23:25
lcukimagine a 3d tablet... you would hold it and your fingers would fall off23:25
lcuk2d23:25
lcukdang23:26
qgilflo_lap: good, thanks!23:26
qgilabout 1. COMMUNITY we need 1-2 more names23:27
qgilI'm droping from that slot since I think I'm more useful in 4. maemo.org what next23:27
flo_lapqgil: Since OpenEmbedded will be there maybe someone could talk about what you can do with it for maemo.23:28
]-[andful_of_notflo_lap: the mamona guys have been contributing and using that for building for the tablets23:28
qgilkeesj: plans to talk about Mamona23:28
flo_lapqgil: ... thinking about Jalimo, Maona and Maemo support in OE23:28
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]-[andful_of_notactually Mike from open was here in the offices merging the changes from our team into their reps :)23:29
qgilsure, I'm looking for names to put in slots  :)23:29
flo_lap]-[andful_of_not: Right... someone from mamona would be nice to see there23:30
lcuki honestly think GeneralAntilles would be great there.  hes very active in the community.   has seen the tablets evolve.  shame hes stateside.   (sorry gen, but its all true)23:30
]-[andful_of_notflo_lap: I think the guys are available Vivijim is a good name23:31
lcukand he has a laptop 800 ;)23:31
qgilas I say I'm sorry but this we can't afford intercontinental flights - next time (September, perhaps)23:31
dougtlcuk: i do not think that pressure stuff work out of the box.  compiled fine, but when I try to use the app, every tap (or finger press) does the same thing.23:31
flo_lapah too bad23:31
lcuki didnt use it directly, i just needed to know which calls to make and hammered the rest into my code.23:31
dougtlcuk: you were saying that you might have to calibrate the device.  do you know if "screen calibration" the app, does this?23:31
]-[andful_of_notah didn't know that23:32
]-[andful_of_nottoo bad23:32
qgilJaffa: stil not around?23:32
GeneralAntillesJaffa would be my other selection for community, to bad he can't attend.23:32
GeneralAntilless/to/too/23:32
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Jaffa would be my other selection for community, too bad he can't attend.23:32
lcukdougt, do some printfs or display the pressure readings from xsp_event.pressure   and see whats happening.   on mine they range from about 300 Light touch) to about 120.   i get a final reading of 0 when mouse up23:33
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qgilGeneralAntilles: wait, wait, perhaps Jaffa can attend23:33
dougtyup23:33
lcuki dont think the calibration tool works with the readings obtained here - i believe they need calibrating yourself23:33
dougtlcuk: that is what I am doing.... the test app is pretty useless.23:34
qgilI had mistaken "Jaffa" with Frantisek, that (I think) has a similar nickname23:34
GeneralAntillesGreat! milhouse, Jaffa and X-Fade would be PERFECT.23:34
GeneralAntillesJaffa is Andrew Flegg23:34
KotCzarnyfrantisek is fanoush23:34
KotCzarny:)23:34
lcukare you getting the rawmouse event though?23:34
lcuk(event.type == xsp_event_base)23:34
dougtyup.23:34
dougtlcuk: i think I got what I need now.23:35
lcukwhat pressure are you actually getting out of it23:35
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qgilhttp://maemo.org/community/wiki/linuxtag2008/23:35
dougtlcuk: 60s for my big fingers, and >200 for my pen23:35
qgilthis looks already like a cool program - missing still one candidate for the community update23:35
lcukunless you press so hard you feel its gonna go through - a big fat finger pad is more spread out and gives higher pressure readings (its inverted)23:36
lcukalso - dont do LOTS of rendering or the xevent indicating stylus up (pressure==0) will not occur and you will stick 2 adjacent strokes together23:36
flo_lapqgil: It looks like Phonelink is quite active again... I don't know the people working on it, but I think projects like this are quite important.23:37
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Naviflo_lap, it's okay23:38
NaviI'm sad it doesn't support my phone23:38
* flo_lap updates23:38
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qgillet me ask directly: who is following regularly the conversation in this channel and would like to provide a subjective update in LinuxTag?23:40
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* KotCzarny is not23:41
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* flo_lap would... but days are too short23:42
lcukive been following closely and coding hard but i havent been here long enough to be an ambassador23:42
qgillcuk: who are you and where are you based (sorry for my ignorance, a 770 has more memory capacity than myself)23:42
VRe__I think there is a night shift and day shift on irc23:42
lcukim just a n00b dev based in england.  this nokia is my first linux device and my first tablet.23:43
* lcuk has had a steep learning curve23:43
qgilin that wiki page there are already many "ambassadors", so I'm personally not worried about this23:43
qgillcuk: proposal for you23:44
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qgillcuk: could you make a brief about maemo in the context of other mobile platforms around? why did you decide to invest your time here and not somewhere else?23:45
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qgiltotally subjective, people could help you here on IRC23:45
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KotCzarnyfrom a n00b perspective23:45
qgilyou have 7 weeks or so23:45
qgiland you don't need to get stressed23:45
KotCzarnyit's what is interesting for a other people who haven't got the device yet23:46
dougtlcuk: do you know if this is the only way to get pressure info from the device? is there something at the gtk layer?23:46
dougthildeon should just provide this for us, /me thinks23:46
qgil(lcuk is getting many questions at once)  ;)23:46
VRe__Is there any other OSS platforms really, which actually ship in numbers?23:46
lcukim just checking dates actually, im in portugal the week before23:46
lcukhow many people would this be in front of23:47
qgilno les than 90023:47
* dougt takes a number.23:47
qgiljoking23:47
KotCzarny:>23:47
qgil90?23:47
GeneralAntillesUsed to be Zaurus.23:47
lcukdougt: dont know any other way but if you find one let me know23:47
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lcuklol ok a room full of people23:47
dougtwill do23:47
VRe__GeneralAntilles: yeah, past tense..23:48
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GeneralAntilleslcuk could give a nice Windows-developer perspective. :P23:48
qgilinteresting too23:48
lcukqgil, if you give me your mail address ill just go speak to the other half23:48
lcukill mail you back in a few minutes23:48
qgilquim.gil @ nokia.com23:48
lcukok i was thinking pm but here is fine lol...23:49
qgilyou have the whole night, I'm switching off this thing now23:49
qgilnot that is a secret one23:49
lcukill have a ponder about whether i have anything valid to say and can contribute for you :)23:49
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qgilno, you ponder whether you can make it to Berlin those days or not23:49
qgil:)23:49
lcukps - this nokia box takes me right back to my amiga days and i love coding on it23:50
VRe__lcuk: sometimes the old farts need to hear how it is for a n00b, they have forgotten23:50
KotCzarny'for it'23:50
KotCzarny:)23:50
jobustill having issues with booting off mmc23:50
lcukgood thinking - hey folks in here will expect help to get this sorted23:50
qgilalright, thanks for the agile collaboration - besides my sleepy soul23:50
lcukhow long would it be - 30mins? an hour?  5 mins and run away?23:50
jobuafter cloning, sd card no problems, fsck fine23:51
qgiltiming23:51
lcukVRe__, :)23:51
qgilflexible23:51
qgileach slot has 1h to be shared between the participants + questions, discussions23:51
jobuafter failed to boot off mmc, booting to internal flash,   the sd card is corrupted, any thoughts on what might be causing it?23:51
lcukok i'll let you know by tomorrow (must also check dayjob commits)  but thank you for the offer23:51
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* lcuk gets all excited and runs off downstairs23:52
qgilI rather go for a model where you come up with a brilliant speech of just 5-10 minutes and then the rest comes from people's discussion23:52
KotCzarnyjobu: that's what vfat partition is for i think23:52
qgilnite zzzzzzzzzzzz23:52
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KotCzarnylcuk: finish your reader/libs in time and you will have so much to talk about :)23:52
* jott sees lcuk protesting for powervr drivers and starting a riot23:52
jobuwell it happens with the 2 partition setup fat16 first and linux 2nd23:53
KotCzarnyhum23:53
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KotCzarnybut is it actually corrupt?23:53
lcukPMSL jott23:53
KotCzarnyie. does it mount in another comp?23:53
jobumounts but when ls some dir have errors23:54
KotCzarnyhum23:54
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VRe__are you sure that the sd is in ok shape?23:54
jobui dunno, checked with badblocks and no errors there23:55
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jobubut still haven't gotten around to getting a 2nd card to try with23:55
KotCzarnytry another partitions setup?23:55
KotCzarnyie, 64mb vfat following 1gb ext323:55
jobutried 2 partition and 1 partition ext2/323:55
jotthm linuxtag will be exciting for the maemo community - i hope there is a nice "aftershow" location to chat with all of you in rl :)23:56
KotCzarnyjobu, it's ext3, right?23:56
VRe__you can check that it is ok by dd:ing 1's and zeros on the card.. if if fails then its trash23:57
KotCzarnyjott: copy party? ;)23:57
jobuit has been, i've tried ext2 and 3 >.<23:57
jobui lost track how many tries i've done heh23:57
KotCzarnyjobu: bad sd contacts? :)23:57
KotCzarnythough if it's repeatable it would be something else23:58
KotCzarnylike bad software23:58
jobui tried in internal and external slots =(23:58
jobuand badblocks pass so i don't think so23:58
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VRe__What I read here, seems that this linuxtag might be something to get the big gear moving (finally)23:58

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