| Solarion | you mean vorbis? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Sho_ | he means vorbis, yes | 00:00 |
| Solarion | (instead of ogg) | 00:00 |
| Solarion | dunno why xiph needed Yet Another Container Format | 00:00 |
| realcomix | Ah heh yes | 00:00 |
| Solarion | vorbis/theora support would be huge | 00:01 |
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| Sho_ | Solarion: Vorbis support is available | 00:01 |
| Sho_ | Solarion: Apparently so is Theora, actually: http://ogg.garage.maemo.org/ | 00:02 |
| Solarion | Sho_: I meant out of the box | 00:03 |
| Solarion | any hope of that? | 00:03 |
| Sho_ | Solarion: Is there a critical need for that if you can just easily install it? | 00:04 |
| dragorn | anyone know offhand why mplayer (latest from hackers-dev) takes ~30s to start? I assume it's something to do with searching for media, any way to speed that up? Runs fine once it starts. | 00:04 |
| Solarion | Sho_: sure. Difference between notebook vendor giving you Windows support and putting Linux or, or vendor giving you Linux support. | 00:04 |
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| Fatal | Solarion: I guess you missed the nokia vs html5 debacle a few days ago? | 00:05 |
| Sho_ | *shrugs* For me one reason to be interested in the ITs in the first place is *because* I can install things that aren't there out of the box | 00:05 |
| Solarion | Fatal: missed, no. | 00:05 |
| Solarion | Sho_: Certainly, but that doesn't mean that there's not a significant difference between "vendor supports x" and "you can make it do x" | 00:06 |
| Sho_ | Solarion: When it comes to a video codec, I don't really perceive that significant difference for my personal use cases | 00:06 |
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| Solarion | eh, I suppose. | 00:08 |
| Solarion | still would be nice to have that support | 00:08 |
| Solarion | but you | 00:08 |
| Solarion | 're probably right; for a video codec the distinction isn't nearly as huge | 00:09 |
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| dagb | Is there a slick solution for automatic switching between WLAN and GPRS? I.e. something that uses WLAN if available, switches to GPRS if not, and back to WLAN when it becomes available? | 00:36 |
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| dagb | I intend to combine this with openvpn to have a "poor mans mobile ip" | 00:38 |
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| kulve | Solarion: no hope of getting ogg supported officially | 01:07 |
| kulve | it should support theora too | 01:09 |
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| Tenkawa | irssi from an ssh connect to my n800 | 01:14 |
| Tenkawa | this is sad | 01:14 |
| Tenkawa | brb... forgot to set a config var | 01:14 |
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| Tenkawa | thats better | 01:15 |
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| Tenkawa | w | 01:20 |
| Tenkawa | oops | 01:20 |
| Tenkawa | sorry | 01:20 |
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| wolfgang | look that- http://wolfgang-city.myminicity.com/ | 02:14 |
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| alterego | Says 15th on my clock .. | 03:05 |
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| lopz | hola | 04:41 |
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| lopz | bye | 05:26 |
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| pupnik | discount code not active on nokia.de yet | 05:30 |
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| [pablo] | anyone have any problems with addblock plus configuration link not showing up in the browser? | 05:53 |
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| pupnik | [pablo]: n800, n810? | 06:12 |
| [pablo] | n810 | 06:14 |
| halley | "addblock"? disable arithmetic? | 06:15 |
| [pablo] | it's a firefox extension | 06:15 |
| halley | I think you mean "ad" as in advertisement. | 06:16 |
| [pablo] | 'adblock' | 06:16 |
| [pablo] | thank you for pointing out my typo, I appreciate it | 06:17 |
| pupnik | heh sorry i don't have OS2008 | 06:21 |
| pupnik | how are your impressions of the N810 [pablo] ? | 06:21 |
| [pablo] | i love it | 06:22 |
| [pablo] | use it daily, goes everywhere with me | 06:22 |
| [pablo] | i just wish always on data connections weren't so rediculously priced, it would be infinantly more useful | 06:23 |
| pupnik | yes | 06:25 |
| pupnik | is the screen good outdoors? | 06:25 |
| halley | Yeah, it's pretty good in bright light. | 06:27 |
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| pupnik | it's fun having flash9 in opera on 770 | 06:50 |
| [pablo] | is anyone else even using adblockplus on os2008? | 06:50 |
| pupnik | i'm sure a lot of people will | 06:50 |
| pupnik | but you're kind of at the head of the pack in n810 acquisitiion | 06:50 |
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| [pablo] | well os2008 is on the n800 now | 06:51 |
| [pablo] | for several weeks | 06:51 |
| pupnik | true | 06:51 |
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| pupnik | [pablo]: pls check forums and mailing list for discussion of the problem also - possibly file a bug report | 06:52 |
| [pablo] | i couldn't find anywhere on thier site to file a bug report =/ all the standard garage tracker/forums/etc are not there | 06:53 |
| [pablo] | it appers to not even be installed, even though it is. The config options aren't even in there | 06:53 |
| pupnik | :/ | 06:54 |
| pupnik | 6:00 AM in europe - might find some more people in here in 8 hours | 06:54 |
| [pablo] | heh | 06:55 |
| [pablo] | looks like there is a huge thread on itt | 06:55 |
| [pablo] | i'll read through that | 06:55 |
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| tank-man | does the n800 a sleep/hibernate mode? | 07:00 |
| jga23 | anybody able to get fceu on the n810? | 07:00 |
| [pablo] | jga23: nope, it requires libs that are only on os2007 | 07:01 |
| jga23 | damn | 07:01 |
| jga23 | is that the only nes emulator for maemo? | 07:02 |
| [pablo] | i believe so | 07:02 |
| [pablo] | wait, does mame do NES? | 07:02 |
| jga23 | it has some games | 07:03 |
| jga23 | I got xmaeme on the n810, does xmame install? | 07:03 |
| [pablo] | i got it to install, but I have yet to get it to run | 07:04 |
| [pablo] | complains about missing files | 07:04 |
| jga23 | hmm, bummer | 07:04 |
| jga23 | xchat? | 07:04 |
| [pablo] | i use ssh+irssi | 07:06 |
| [pablo] | never tried installing xchat on n810 | 07:06 |
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| [pablo] | pupnik: got it working =) apparently greasemonkey corrupts the extensions.rdf file | 07:07 |
| tank-man | what made you pick the n810 over the n800? | 07:08 |
| jga23 | I have both | 07:08 |
| jga23 | but the keyboard is the main thing | 07:08 |
| [pablo] | the keyboard | 07:08 |
| jga23 | gps was another, but that blows | 07:08 |
| jacques | blows in what way? | 07:09 |
| jga23 | takes 10 mins to lock on | 07:09 |
| pupnik | congrats | 07:09 |
| pupnik | jga23: did you install FCEU? | 07:10 |
| jga23 | no, I wasn't able to | 07:10 |
| [pablo] | yeah, i don't really mention gps as a selling point anymore, because it sucks | 07:10 |
| [pablo] | i heard that the next version of os2008 will have fixes for GPS though | 07:10 |
| [pablo] | hopefully it will be usable | 07:11 |
| jga23 | I read that by the time the os2008 is out for n800 they will have a firmware fix for the n810 | 07:11 |
| jga23 | which hopefully is by the end of the year | 07:11 |
| jga23 | out meaning not beta | 07:11 |
| [pablo] | yeah, they will probably come out at the same time, along with a widespread release of the n810 | 07:12 |
| jga23 | although even with the gps issues, I'm very happy with the n810 | 07:13 |
| [pablo] | yes, and it can only get better | 07:15 |
| [pablo] | and it will get better | 07:15 |
| [pablo] | which is awesome | 07:15 |
| jacques | hmm :-\ | 07:16 |
| jacques | sounds like I shold wait on the n810 | 07:16 |
| [pablo] | they are so hard to even get right now, it won't make much of a difference heh | 07:16 |
| [pablo] | i go tmine for $75 off is the only reason I got it right away | 07:17 |
| jga23 | buy.com has em | 07:17 |
| [pablo] | nokiea said they had them when I ordered mine too, they didn't | 07:17 |
| jga23 | my buddy ordered his today | 07:17 |
| penguinbait | nokia website says backordered until dec 19 | 07:17 |
| penguinbait | nokiausa website that is | 07:18 |
| [pablo] | yeah | 07:18 |
| [pablo] | when I ordered mine it was available | 07:18 |
| [pablo] | when I got my confirmation email | 07:18 |
| [pablo] | it was backordered until Nov 27th | 07:18 |
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| [pablo] | that was on like the 14th I think | 07:18 |
| penguinbait | I never got a confirmation email | 07:24 |
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| [pablo] | penguinbait: never? | 07:28 |
| penguinbait | nope | 07:28 |
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| [pablo] | did you get charged for it? LOL | 07:29 |
| [pablo] | well, they also require you to give them an email address | 07:29 |
| [pablo] | you might not have done that | 07:29 |
| penguinbait | sorry,I thought you meant confirmation email saying they were on sale,I misunderstood | 07:30 |
| [pablo] | ahh | 07:30 |
| [pablo] | no it was just my confirmation from the order | 07:30 |
| penguinbait | I fill out the email address on the nseries website | 07:31 |
| [pablo] | thoughtfix told me the day they went on sale, and I called right away | 07:31 |
| [pablo] | (in the US) | 07:31 |
| penguinbait | I have coupon so I am waiting anyway | 07:31 |
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| [pablo] | dev's get them for $99 Euro right? | 07:32 |
| penguinbait | something like that | 07:32 |
| penguinbait | the way the dollar is falling my price goes up daily | 07:32 |
| [pablo] | yeah tell me about it | 07:33 |
| pupnik | hmm i need to get a visa/mc to order | 07:35 |
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| [pablo] | paypal? | 07:36 |
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| pupnik | nokia.de wants visa/mc. most german purchases can be done through bank transfer | 07:49 |
| [pablo] | really? bank transfers here are rediculously expensive | 07:51 |
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| pupnik | free here | 07:55 |
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| Syntra | Hey guys | 09:17 |
| Syntra | Can someone try OpenTTD on any OS2008 device for me? | 09:17 |
| doc|home | Syntra: you bastard. Now I'll never do anything productive :( | 09:18 |
| Syntra | Heh | 09:19 |
| Syntra | You don't have to | 09:19 |
| doc|home | tell that to my boss :/ | 09:21 |
| [pablo] | that game looks like a lot of fun =) | 09:21 |
| Syntra | It is man | 09:22 |
| Syntra | Its one of the reasons I bought the N800 | 09:22 |
| [pablo] | heh | 09:22 |
| [pablo] | looks like a good enough reason to me =) | 09:23 |
| Syntra | Yeah | 09:23 |
| Syntra | But its yet to become a reality, sadly | 09:23 |
| [pablo] | it runs on the n800(os2007)? | 09:23 |
| [pablo] | it runs well I take it too? | 09:23 |
| Syntra | Heh, no | 09:23 |
| [pablo] | oh =/ | 09:23 |
| Syntra | It was ported for the 770 | 09:23 |
| Syntra | Tried the OS05 and OS06 versions | 09:24 |
| Syntra | Nothing | 09:24 |
| Syntra | I'm hoping OS2008 will be different, but I'm waiting for the official release | 09:24 |
| [pablo] | couldn't you try it in the SDK? | 09:25 |
| Syntra | Ehh | 09:25 |
| Syntra | I suppose | 09:25 |
| [pablo] | heh | 09:25 |
| Syntra | But that might not be too terribly useful | 09:26 |
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| pupnik | As soon as the daimonin client is ready at 800x480, we'll take productivity down a couple of notches | 09:47 |
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| pupnik | Exult: UI rework and wrapper code, Xu4: UI rework and wrapper code, Dosbox: sdl kbd and launcher... | 09:48 |
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| pupnik | Sat Dec 15 08:52:56 CET 2007 | 09:54 |
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| cbx33 | hey anyone up? | 10:30 |
| cbx33 | i created a linux gateway the other day but skype seems to have problems connecting through it. is it a stun problem ?? | 10:31 |
| Skrylar | Have any of you experienced an odd problem where when you play a stream in mplayer, mplayer doesn't want to take the foreground until the end of the video? | 10:32 |
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| pupnik | no | 10:52 |
| Skrylar | how in the world do I type an escape on this keyboard :S | 10:54 |
| Skrylar | oh, | 10:56 |
| Skrylar | found it :D | 10:56 |
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| Rocketman | I love to irc while I walk | 12:34 |
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| ttmrichter | Is there a good introduction to packaging software into .deb files? I've compiled the Erlang OTP distribution for the N800 and would like to make it generally available. | 12:35 |
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| Rocketman12 | Anyone got a way of setting a longer illumination time on the n810? | 12:38 |
| Rocketman12 | for the keyboard | 12:38 |
| pupnik | probably a gconf setting | 12:39 |
| pupnik | have you tried maemo-mapper with the gps yet Rocketman12 ? | 12:40 |
| Rocketman12 | with the built in or external? | 12:41 |
| Rocketman12 | The built in gps hardware sucks, quite simply | 12:42 |
| tontsa | yeah so far i haven't managed to get gps fix with the internal | 12:42 |
| Rocketman12 | Exceedingly long lock times...if at all | 12:42 |
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| tontsa | so i dunno why they even bothered | 12:42 |
| Rocketman12 | never more than 5 sats locked even with clear horizons | 12:43 |
| Rocketman12 | poor receive sensitivity | 12:43 |
| Rocketman12 | they bothered for the bullet point of the spec sheet | 12:43 |
| Rocketman12 | My $30 Holux M-1000 is infinitely superior | 12:44 |
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| tontsa | well even the nokia's external gps dongle works better, but even that takes 2-3 mins for fix | 12:45 |
| pupnik | $30 for a gps unit? | 12:45 |
| Rocketman12 | 30-45 second lock times in almost any condition | 12:45 |
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| Rocketman12 | and usually keeps 7-9 sats locked in even urban canyon type environments | 12:46 |
| Rocketman12 | thing is size of a box of matches and lasts a full day (20+ hrs) on a charge | 12:47 |
| Rocketman12 | Yeah, eBay is wonderful | 12:47 |
| Rocketman12 | The MTK chipsets are >> better than Sirf III imo | 12:48 |
| Rocketman12 | I think they do 32 channel while Sirf III is something like 20 | 12:48 |
| Rocketman12 | really helps with skyscrappers | 12:49 |
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| Rocketman12 | pupnik, any idea what the gconf setting might be pupnik? | 12:52 |
| pupnik | no - but it's a search term that might help you get lucky with an answer | 12:52 |
| pupnik | i want to use gps for biking tours in the woods | 12:53 |
| pupnik | getting lost at the end of a biking day, dehydrated and low on sugar really sucks | 12:53 |
| tontsa | gps generally works really bad in woods | 12:54 |
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| tontsa | atleast these civilian dongles without extra antenna | 12:55 |
| pupnik | boo | 12:55 |
| pupnik | well there are always clearings | 12:55 |
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| Rocketman12 | You might want to invest in one of these gps units that do inertial tracking when you don't have sat lock | 13:00 |
| Rocketman12 | last time I checked you could get them for under $1000 and that was probably a year and a half ago | 13:01 |
| Rocketman12 | surely cheaper now | 13:01 |
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| lopz | hola | 14:05 |
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| alterego | So much for "by the 15th" .. | 16:01 |
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| * Jaffa wonders whether to raise one bug for in bugzilla for the general crapness of the UI design for scrolling in OS2008 apps, or one for each application. | 16:03 | |
| alterego | One for each ;) | 16:04 |
| alterego | But copy & paste ^_^ | 16:04 |
| alterego | Browser finger scrolling is aweful on some sites. | 16:04 |
| Jaffa | alterego: exactly what I was thinking | 16:05 |
| Jaffa | Maybe one parent in Desktop > User interaction and then others related to that | 16:05 |
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| alterego | Doesn't look like I'm gonna be able to get 64bit debian installed :( | 16:05 |
| * alterego starts downloading the 64bit ubuntu install CD. | 16:05 | |
| alterego | I could do a bootstrap I guess. | 16:06 |
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| alterego | I don't really like the ITT site either. | 16:18 |
| alterego | But that has nothing to do with maemo really. | 16:18 |
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| alterego | You'd think, creating a website for the internet tablet community. And you can barely use it on device :/ | 16:18 |
| BeBraw | ironic web design | 16:19 |
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| alterego | Heh | 16:19 |
| BeBraw | how much does N800 cost these days? | 16:19 |
| alterego | 200 GBP | 16:19 |
| alterego | ~400 USD | 16:20 |
| BeBraw | k. i hope some version contains GSM in the future | 16:20 |
| alterego | That'd be rubbish | 16:20 |
| alterego | Byt the time the tablets have GSM, GSM will have been superseded by something else. | 16:21 |
| BeBraw | i could easily replace my phone with that | 16:21 |
| alterego | Pfft. | 16:21 |
| BeBraw | right. that's true | 16:21 |
| alterego | You'd look like an idiot walking down the street talking on a tablet :P | 16:21 |
| BeBraw | one of those bluetooth speaker setups would do the trick | 16:21 |
| alterego | Just, for a moment, pretend that these devices aren't actually developed by Nokia, they're developed by maemo .. | 16:21 |
| BeBraw | on of the coolest aspects of the device is that it is really easy to develop software for it | 16:22 |
| BeBraw | *one | 16:22 |
| shackan | alterego: you're saying people look like idiots using skype on the tablet? | 16:23 |
| alterego | Sure, I'm merely saying. That if the device wasn't developed by Nokia. You wouldn't expect any GSM functionality :P | 16:23 |
| BeBraw | i have been playing with pymaemo, pygtk and glade a bit. really nice :) | 16:23 |
| alterego | shackan, I was refering to having it attached to the side of your head ;) | 16:23 |
| shackan | heh, at least you don't have to hold it like the old N-Gage | 16:24 |
| alterego | I don't like using handsfree kits with phones. So I'm unlikely to every have a use for GSM _in_ the device. Except for the internet. | 16:24 |
| alterego | Which means I'd still need a seperate phone, which then proves to me that there's no point in having GSM in the device :) | 16:25 |
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| shackan | alterego: and people (at least me) don't want to carry too much stuff around, and I'm more likely to carry my phone therefore having to leave the tablet at home (also because it's completely useless unless you have wifi around, which is never the case) | 16:25 |
| alterego | You don't use your phone as a modem? | 16:25 |
| * alterego likes using his phone as a modem .. | 16:26 | |
| shackan | no, my phone doesn't even have bluetooth (so I'd need a new phone, and I'd rather get a n810, but I won't because I could only buy one thing) | 16:26 |
| alterego | Ah, | 16:27 |
| alterego | You can get pretty cheap phones with BT and EDGE .. | 16:27 |
| shackan | that's not the point, we have no dataplans in this country, I just wanted to make and receive calls without having to carry too much gear, that's all | 16:28 |
| alterego | Get a hand bag you girl :P | 16:28 |
| shackan | ... | 16:28 |
| alterego | My tablet fits snugly in my left hand trouser pocket. And my phone is nicely in my right. | 16:29 |
| alterego | Mind you, I'm probably pretty infertile by now ^_^ | 16:29 |
| shackan | mmm, my n800 is huge in my trouser pocket | 16:29 |
| shackan | I can't even sit | 16:29 |
| shackan | and btw, if they can fit a gps into something the size of a coin, gsm modules should be pretty much integrated by now, and they're cheap | 16:30 |
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| tontsa | GPS in n810 is crap atleast | 16:31 |
| shackan | well, no idea | 16:31 |
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| Jaffa | Feel free to vote for https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2564 y'all | 16:35 |
| astro76 | voted... and I wish everyone would forget about fat scrollbars | 16:38 |
| astro76 | what a bad idea | 16:38 |
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| pupnik | dragging things via kinetic scrolling is a better ui than scrollbars for a tablet/finger device | 16:40 |
| fysa | WHAT | 16:40 |
| fysa | SHUT UP | 16:40 |
| fysa | GO AWAY | 16:40 |
| fysa | FAT SCROLLBARS ARE NEEEDED | 16:41 |
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| fysa | (just on the right side) | 16:41 |
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| sp3000 | RAWR | 16:41 |
| fysa | (and only for the browser) | 16:41 |
| fysa | all of this hard work trying to trick timeless into implementing fat scrollbars could go awry ;) | 16:41 |
| pupnik | hrm | 16:41 |
| pupnik | ok i delete my opinion | 16:42 |
| fysa | why? because they are adamantly against kinetic scrolling | 16:42 |
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| fysa | :) | 16:42 |
| pupnik | well dragging something around seems more intuitive than bars | 16:43 |
| pupnik | with or without kinetic energy | 16:43 |
| fysa | 'multiplied' scrolling would work for me. | 16:43 |
| fysa | i.e., move your finger 20 pixels, the screen scrolls 30-50. just something to get out of the dragging treadmill we have now | 16:43 |
| pupnik | hm yah. also would be so nice if the cpu didn't have to draw the window when scrolling stuff | 16:45 |
| pupnik | but that's maybe 2008 or 2009 tech | 16:45 |
| pupnik | well, 1978 tech | 16:46 |
| fysa | the problem is the 'design documentation' that 'official' apps must adhere to. | 16:46 |
| fysa | but if someone were to clean up and repackage the grabanddrag extension.. | 16:47 |
| fysa | (as soon as I have a bit more time, I will give it a shot if no one else does by then) | 16:48 |
| fysa | http://grabanddrag.mozdev.org/ | 16:48 |
| fysa | you can use this extension now. | 16:48 |
| fysa | in Firefox.. | 16:48 |
| fysa | in fact, you can run this extension on a remote Firefox and use VNC or rdesktop to control it. | 16:48 |
| fysa | and have kinetic firefox. | 16:49 |
| fysa | http://grabanddrag.mozdev.org/screenshots.html | 16:49 |
| pupnik | interesting stuff | 16:49 |
| fysa | supports 'flick' | 16:50 |
| fysa | where you push on the screen, then flick your finger to page around | 16:50 |
| fysa | and 'momentum' - i.e., kinetic | 16:50 |
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| pupnik | flick detects fast motion, otherwise the scrolling is by dragging? | 16:51 |
| fysa | I think it's just a matter of how far your finger travels and at what speed. | 16:51 |
| fysa | there is tons of configuration options, I'm sure it's all adjustable | 16:51 |
| fysa | if your finger goes further down the screen without lifting, you get momentum based on that speed | 16:51 |
| fysa | if your finger moves short but very fast, you get a flick (quick speed up for X distance, then quick speed down) | 16:52 |
| pupnik | having that behavior selectable in browser preferences would be sweet | 16:52 |
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| fysa | don't know what kind of work it would take yet to get basic behavior working, but trying to make some time before the end of January to get into it | 16:53 |
| * Jaffa wonders whether gradanddrag would conflict with the scrolling the browser's trying to do itself. | 16:54 | |
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| timely | Jaffa: thanks for filing that maps bug | 16:57 |
| timely | it's one of many complaints i have | 16:57 |
| pupnik | for me, dpad up/down would be good for paging, not selecting links | 16:57 |
| timely | pupnik: there's a pref you can set to deal w/ that | 16:57 |
| pupnik | cool | 16:57 |
| timely | http://timeless.justdave.net/maemo/microb-pageupdown-0.1.deb | 16:57 |
| timely | i think that's what you want | 16:57 |
| pupnik | o_O | 16:58 |
| pupnik | u r cool | 16:58 |
| timely | it's all someone else's fault | 16:58 |
| timely | both the fact that we have the default feature | 16:58 |
| timely | and enough research to undo it | 16:58 |
| timely | hrm | 16:58 |
| timely | i really should write news articles explaining such features | 16:58 |
| timely | that'd be moderately useful | 16:58 |
| pupnik | what is that - os2007? | 16:58 |
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| timely | the feature/requirement that arrows do something wonky | 16:59 |
| pupnik | it is a bora deb? | 16:59 |
| timely | oh | 16:59 |
| timely | um, hopefully "it just works"? | 16:59 |
| timely | if my deb doesn't work on 2.x/3.x/4.x please let me know? | 17:00 |
| pupnik | how can i make a deb that app mgr can install on 2006 and 2007 both? | 17:00 |
| pupnik | (it's for a sdl game that works on both) | 17:00 |
| * timely shrugs | 17:00 | |
| timely | i construct debs by hand | 17:00 |
| timely | i haven't investigated .install files yet | 17:00 |
| pupnik | ok | 17:01 |
| timely | i think in theory, a deb doesn't know where it can be used | 17:01 |
| timely | it merely says "i need X" "i can't be used with Y" | 17:01 |
| pupnik | no, i get complaints from application manager when installing debs from file | 17:01 |
| timely | deciding when to use a deb is controlled by placement (in a repository) | 17:01 |
| timely | really? | 17:01 |
| pupnik | yah | 17:01 |
| timely | did it complain about my file(s)? | 17:01 |
| pupnik | do not have microb | 17:01 |
| timely | oh, ... | 17:02 |
| pupnik | but i will test and learn more about this | 17:02 |
| timely | i hope my deb complained if you didn't have microb, it clearly won't work w/o that :) | 17:02 |
| timely | but microb on 2006, 2007, or 2008 should be happy | 17:02 |
| pupnik | very cool | 17:02 |
| timely | the package name was microb-pageupdown, not tablet-browser-pageupdown :) | 17:02 |
| pupnik | yes | 17:03 |
| * timely wonders if it's possible to disable the feature in opera | 17:03 | |
| pupnik | i deduced that | 17:03 |
| pupnik | no more coffee for you timely | 17:03 |
| pupnik | :) | 17:03 |
| timely | it's 5pm, maybe lunch? | 17:05 |
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| Jaffa | timely: no probs on the Maps bugs. Having been playing with an N810 for a day or so, I thought I'd go bugzilla-tastic. | 17:06 |
| killfill | hi | 17:06 |
| killfill | any news on canola?.. :) | 17:06 |
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| timely | http://www.maemoapps.com/2007/12/14/adblock-plus-for-microb/ | 17:08 |
| * timely frowns | 17:08 | |
| timely | i think the top picture looks a lot better than the bottom picture | 17:08 |
| timely | she's cute :) | 17:08 |
| Jaffa | :) | 17:08 |
| timely | sadly, his demo pictures look better than the other demo pictures i see | 17:09 |
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| killfill | what software do you guys use for streaming audio/video to the n8x0?.. | 17:10 |
| timely | killfill: i use my n81 :) | 17:10 |
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| killfill | heh | 17:10 |
| timely | oh that sucks | 17:11 |
| Jaffa | killfill: I use my mediaserv: http://mediautils.garage.maemo.org/mediaserv.html | 17:11 |
| timely | maemoapp.com stole the picture from browser-extras | 17:11 |
| timely | </jaffa:shamelessplug> | 17:11 |
| Jaffa | timely: well, he *did* ask ;-) | 17:12 |
| timely | oh sure :) | 17:12 |
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| Jaffa | xmlns:jaffa does consist of *many* ...plug elements :) | 17:12 |
| timely | typically end tags don't include attributes | 17:12 |
| timely | but i'll accept that there were probably various attributes on the begin tag :) | 17:12 |
| killfill | Jaffa: wow.. looks cool | 17:14 |
| killfill | look to be a "backend" for video center (didnt know about it neither..) | 17:15 |
| fysa | can we get mediaserv working with mplayer? :) | 17:15 |
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| Jaffa | You can use it without Video Center and just use the web UI | 17:15 |
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| Jaffa | fysa: yeah, 1) Video Center lets you configure mplayer forplayback, 2) 770 users have to do that anyway, since Media Player on OS2006 is crap at handling streaming. I was going to say the README says how to do that, but it doesn't seem that it does in the current version. | 17:16 |
| timely | pupnik: out of curiosity, why don't you have microb? | 17:16 |
| fysa | i.e., I can play 652x3xx 1600kbps xvid natively in mplayer, but would still want to re-encode higher than that based on resolution. | 17:16 |
| fysa | ah | 17:17 |
| Jaffa | fysa: cool | 17:18 |
| Jaffa | timely: that deb works fine with Web on OS2008, btw (as I'm sure you already know). Thanks a lot for that. | 17:19 |
| fysa | I have an mplayer-based .sh that analyzes resolution/codec/autocrops and uses a ~/.mplayer/config-xxx 'profile' accordingly | 17:19 |
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| fysa | could something like this (or is it already?) be used with tablet-encode to not touch certain files? | 17:19 |
| Jaffa | tablet-encode will just copy the stream if it's lower resolution, is DivX, and has a width/height divisible by 16 compared with the preset. So, if you created a preset at 652x3xx @ 1600kbps, it wouldn't touch those files, but would touch the higher ones. | 17:20 |
| fysa | hot | 17:22 |
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| fysa | now I have something to do today. ;) | 17:23 |
| fysa | it looks good. | 17:23 |
| fysa | I see it has an RSS feed also. | 17:23 |
| killfill | oh.. videocenter is not ready for os2007 jet.. | 17:26 |
| killfill | 2008 | 17:26 |
| pupnik | timely: i don't use the 770 to surf much now that I have dsl | 17:27 |
| fysa | http://flickr.com/photos/sunitabudhrani/sets/ | 17:28 |
| killfill | Jaffa: it transcode video only right?.. im actually looking for mainly two things: stream audio, and stream fotos from a server | 17:28 |
| killfill | any sugestion is welcome.. :) | 17:29 |
| Jaffa | I'd guess you want some kind of UPnP server. Never found one for Linux I got on with, TBH | 17:29 |
| zerojay | All of them suck. | 17:30 |
| Jaffa | That'd explain it :) | 17:30 |
| killfill | what sucks.. the upnp's? | 17:30 |
| zerojay | Yep. | 17:30 |
| jeddy3 | coherence has potential | 17:31 |
| dev | what wrong with the one I'm working on? https://coherence.beebits.net/ | 17:31 |
| killfill | any special reason for it?.. ive hear its not NAT friendly.. but apart of that.. | 17:31 |
| dev | jeddy3: thx ;-) | 17:31 |
| jeddy3 | :) | 17:31 |
| jeddy3 | it has | 17:31 |
| Jaffa | dev: I'll have a look | 17:32 |
| dev | Jaffa: it even works _on_ the nokia itself | 17:32 |
| Jaffa | dev: the file-system backend for MediaServer would seem to do what I'd want for audio UPnP at home | 17:33 |
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| dev | killfill: UPnP isn't intended to work outside a lan, but there is work in progress to define a "remote upnp spec" | 17:33 |
| fysa | XBMC Linux has a built-in UPNP server. | 17:34 |
| fysa | which seems like it will be decent once setup. | 17:34 |
| fysa | mediatomb works OK -- I have transcoding working with that, but it's sketchy | 17:34 |
| fysa | your best solutions are probably mediaserv or TVersity.. | 17:35 |
| fysa | I have nfs mount working now, but it breaks more than it's worth. | 17:35 |
| * killfill anotating thouse names.. | 17:35 | |
| fysa | TVersity is Windows -- probably the best uPNP server out there, the XBox 360/PS3 community use it to transcode to supported formats in real-time | 17:36 |
| fysa | and I believe it has an N800 profile. | 17:36 |
| dev | Jaffa: the filesystem backend works fine so far with all clients, from Nokia MediaStreamer to PS3 | 17:36 |
| killfill | oh my server is a freebsd box | 17:37 |
| killfill | dev: coherence wiki is full of info. thanks for pointing it out. :) | 17:37 |
| dev | killfill: you're welcome | 17:38 |
| dev | Jaffa: if you can use the MediaDB backend | 17:39 |
| dev | Jaffa: it lacks automatic adding of new files, but it has id3 tagging support, an album-art fetcher and organizes the files in an "all tracks", albums and artist structure | 17:41 |
| fysa | Jaffa: would it be possible to get a dropdown profile selector in the web interface? i.e. If I'm not home, I'd like to use a lower bandwidth profile for streaming? | 17:43 |
| Jaffa | fysa: it's been requested. I've not done any work on it yet, though | 17:51 |
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| lopz | dew | 17:52 |
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| killfill | isnt there a installer for mono on os2008 jet? | 18:02 |
| zoran | heh? | 18:02 |
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| killfill | .net | 18:03 |
| zoran | I know | 18:03 |
| zoran | looks dead even on regular pc | 18:04 |
| killfill | hehe.. | 18:04 |
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| penguinbait | are we having fun yet? | 18:38 |
| Sho_ | not yet. too cold, no n810 :-) | 18:43 |
| * vegai concurs | 18:44 | |
| vegai | Christmas is in jeopardy | 18:44 |
| vegai | in fact, Nokia is waging a war against christmas! | 18:44 |
| hugolp | good for Nokia then | 18:44 |
| hugolp | Christmas is bullshit | 18:45 |
| Sho_ | You could also say the Christians are waging a war against the IT community with their holidays disrupting shipping lanes ;) | 18:45 |
| vegai | war against Yule | 18:45 |
| vegai | then | 18:45 |
| zoran | have a picture of n810 and be happy again | 18:46 |
| vegai | fapfapfap. | 18:49 |
| penguinbait | Sho, its cold here, and no n810 yet either | 18:59 |
| penguinbait | but I am still having fun | 18:59 |
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| Sho_ | penguinbait: Still porting our stuff over? What's the latest? :) | 19:02 |
| penguinbait | xrdp and x11vnc | 19:03 |
| penguinbait | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13155 | 19:03 |
| penguinbait | dopewars | 19:04 |
| penguinbait | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12036 | 19:04 |
| penguinbait | hehe | 19:04 |
| penguinbait | cdrom/DVD device support | 19:04 |
| penguinbait | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12036&highlight=dopewars | 19:04 |
| penguinbait | oops | 19:05 |
| Sho_ | penguinbait: Tried doing KDE 4 yet? :-) | 19:05 |
| penguinbait | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12491 | 19:05 |
| penguinbait | uh not yet, I just finished 3.5.8 with Koffice | 19:05 |
| penguinbait | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11590 | 19:06 |
| zoran | it is said 4 is about 40% less demanding | 19:06 |
| penguinbait | well there was a guy in here, gnuton, I think, he was a KDE developer and said he was porting KDE4 | 19:07 |
| penguinbait | I will probably get to it in a few months, if its not already out there | 19:07 |
| * Sho_ is a KDE developer as well, fwiw | 19:08 | |
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| penguinbait | has any speed testing been done with internal 2GB on n810? | 19:08 |
| penguinbait | Sho: I am just a hack :) | 19:08 |
| Sho_ | mkruisselbrink put Plasma (which is our new desktop and panel app/framework) on a Neo1973 earlier this week - should be much nicer on an IT :-) | 19:09 |
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| penguinbait | Sho have you tried KDE on tablet | 19:11 |
| Sho_ | penguinbait: Not yet, sadly - I only very briefly had an N800, and am currently waiting for the N810 discount code to go live :-) | 19:11 |
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| penguinbait | I am waiting for the same thing | 19:12 |
| penguinbait | so are you developing anything? | 19:12 |
| Sho_ | penguinbait: I was going to look into making Qt4 work with the input method framework, so it works with the onscreen keyboards | 19:13 |
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| tank-man | who is eligable for the discount code? | 19:13 |
| penguinbait | tank-man, the people who applied for it and were accepted | 19:14 |
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| dick-richardson | how do you clear ash history in os2008? | 19:17 |
| Sho_ | time to cook dinner - bbl | 19:17 |
| penguinbait | I am very excited about the possibility of KDE4 being ported by someone who knows what they are doing. Cause quite honestly, I can run configure, make, and make install all day long, and I am pretty good at troubleshooting compile issues. But I am unable to change any code | 19:17 |
| penguinbait | anything good? | 19:18 |
| penguinbait | rm .ash_history in home dir | 19:19 |
| zoran | type /dev/null > .ash_history | 19:19 |
| penguinbait | you may then need to touch it | 19:19 |
| penguinbait | or that | 19:19 |
| zoran | could complain about not having right to do that, but will remove the content | 19:19 |
| zoran | some shells have option to put the ine in >logout | 19:20 |
| zoran | *line | 19:20 |
| zoran | and ".logout" | 19:20 |
| bodhammer | What is the status of Discount purchases for developers? | 19:21 |
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| lopz | hola | 19:24 |
| bodhammer | I got a code on Nov. 12 but have not seen anything since for instructions on where to purchase the N810. | 19:24 |
| penguinbait | supposed to be next week bodhammer | 19:28 |
| penguinbait | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13188&highlight=discount | 19:29 |
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| Andy80 | hi all | 19:39 |
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| bodhammer | penguinbait: Thx, any idea how much of a discount Nokia is offering? It's been a rough Xmas on the credit card already! | 20:03 |
| vegai | => 100 currency units, I think | 20:04 |
| bodhammer | What is the best way to start chasing down runtime errors when porting? I'm getting a clean compile for a project from GNU source but it crashes when I run it. | 20:08 |
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| halley | vegai, 100 currency units is pretty meaningless if you count JPY ;) | 20:11 |
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| Vulc|NotHere | so another few days until canola... | 20:22 |
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| LoCusF | yup | 20:33 |
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| Ed77 | Hi all | 20:44 |
| hahlo | Hi Ed77 | 20:44 |
| Ed77 | can anybody answer gtk-related questions here? | 20:44 |
| elb | if your question is related to tablet development, your best bet on IRC is always to ask, not ask to ask | 20:45 |
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| gomiam | Ed77: not anybody, but perhaps you might get an answer if you make a good, concise, to the point question | 20:46 |
| elb | if it's a generic Gtk+ question, you'll want to take it to #gtk on gimpnet (or wherever they currently hang out) | 20:46 |
| Ed77 | ok, I'll try :) | 20:46 |
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| Juhaz | it's #gtk+ | 20:47 |
| Juhaz | and yes, gimpnet. | 20:47 |
| Ed77 | I wrote simple gtk program and when I run it from commandline under root everything is OK. But when I put it in postinst script of my package and install this package style of my widgets (labels and button) is different. What should I do to make it default maemo style? | 20:48 |
| elb | what does your postinst script *do*? | 20:49 |
| elb | nopasting it might be helpful | 20:49 |
| Ed77 | It doesn't matter. What matters is when this program is run by application manager style of widgets is changed. | 20:50 |
| Ed77 | If I install package by dpkg or apt style is ok. | 20:51 |
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| Ed77 | In my code I parse default gtkrc file, so theoretically styles should be set from there. But practically it doesn't work. | 20:52 |
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| hillct | What's the password for root in OS2008 ? | 20:53 |
| Ed77 | And I think it's not related to gtk, it should be something maemo-specific. | 20:53 |
| hillct | er the default root pw | 20:53 |
| gomiam | hillct: it should still be rootme | 20:54 |
| gomiam | but what do I know | 20:54 |
| hillct | heh | 20:54 |
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| hillct | hmm | 20:54 |
| hillct | aparently not | 20:55 |
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| Atarii | anyone know a way to stop kismet and similar wireless monitoring tools to stop finding ghost clients/networks? | 20:55 |
| Atarii | i think its a prob with the drivers on the nokia | 20:55 |
| gomiam | Atarii: it _is_ a problem with the drivers. Unfortunately I have found no workaround | 20:55 |
| hillct | this is what I get for updating a perfectly working OS2007 setup to OS2008 | 20:55 |
| gomiam | Atarii: I follow this procedure to scan networks. | 20:56 |
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| gomiam | 1) attempt to connect to a WiFi net, but stop after seen which ones are available | 20:56 |
| gomiam | 2) run airodump a first time in order to find the channel the interesting network is on | 20:57 |
| gomiam | 3) run airodump again on that channel | 20:57 |
| gomiam | 4) Pray no bogus traffic gets labelled WPA/WPA2 | 20:57 |
| Atarii | lol | 20:57 |
| gomiam | 5) Once enough traffic is available, crack | 20:57 |
| gomiam | :-) | 20:57 |
| Atarii | do u still get ghost clients? | 20:58 |
| gomiam | yes, but I don't care too much about them anyway | 20:58 |
| gomiam | it's the WEP key I want to crack ;-) | 20:58 |
| Atarii | i just got wifizoo running on the 770, but theres so much garbage data its worthless running it | 20:58 |
| gomiam | Atarii: I would test the aircrack-ng suite | 20:58 |
| gomiam | it doesn't get too much garbage | 20:59 |
| Atarii | i tried it b4, but it still went a bit crazy, mite try the latest version | 20:59 |
| gomiam | it doesn't work too badly. Now, if airodump-ng was able to drop bad-formed packets... | 21:00 |
| shackan | gomiam: how long does it take for wep on average? | 21:00 |
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| Atarii | maybe we could alter the source to drop MACs like FF:FF:***** etc, that would help filter a bit | 21:01 |
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| gomiam | well, the latest aircrack-ng software has the PTW method, which is supposedly effective with just over 40K packets | 21:02 |
| gomiam | unfortunately I don't know how to make a N800 inject packets, so gathering is quite slow usually | 21:02 |
| gomiam | even more, Spain's main phone operator, Telefonica, uses a brain-dead scheme to create WEP keys | 21:03 |
| gomiam | it's so damned easy that there's only 64K keys to test | 21:03 |
| shackan | oh, they provide wep enabled routers? | 21:03 |
| gomiam | once you have four or more data packets it's trivial to dictionary attack them | 21:03 |
| gomiam | shackan: yes, they do. At least they provide some factory-set security | 21:04 |
| gomiam | Jazztel gives you an open router, so there is no need to even crack it XD | 21:04 |
| shackan | lucky you :D here we get lots of wifi routers issued by the main telecom operator, but they all com with wpa2 by default | 21:04 |
| shackan | *come | 21:04 |
| shackan | you can't find them almost anywhere | 21:05 |
| shackan | *can | 21:05 |
| gomiam | shackan: yeah, it's quite useful. At the flat I share with some friends I have already cracked a couple of networks so I can connect my laptop there XD | 21:05 |
| shackan | oh | 21:06 |
| gomiam | of course, having a ZyDAS 1211rw USB card with external antenna helps a lot with coverage :-) | 21:06 |
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| shackan | well, I've been routinely using an open wireless network which is 200 metres from here, which perfect indoor reception | 21:07 |
| gomiam | W O W | 21:07 |
| shackan | no idea how it can happen, but it does | 21:07 |
| gomiam | now that is a natural parabolic room you have XD | 21:07 |
| shackan | of course now I have broadband and don't 'lease' it anymore | 21:08 |
| gomiam | of course, of course... XD | 21:08 |
| Fang64 | Sorry to just barge in, anyone had trouble with ncurses installation on the n800? Cause I can't seem to get it installed | 21:09 |
| gomiam | Fang64: not me, on OS2007 | 21:09 |
| Fang64 | yup | 21:10 |
| Fang64 | I've tried acouple times I've had to manually remove the package it seems it wont install gives me some mess about a clear file | 21:10 |
| Fang64 | it's been mentioned in the chat previous i went googling for a solution ran into this chat lol | 21:11 |
| Fang64 | I've also tried wiping out OS2007 with a reflash twice now so it's kind of a loss at the moment to what is causing it unless maemo-hackers repository is broken or maybe busybox hates ncurses not really sure though | 21:13 |
| Fang64 | specifically the ncurses-bin | 21:13 |
| tontsa | ncurses works here atleast with 0s2008, busybox and screen | 21:13 |
| Fang64 | uhm.. or maybe I'm crazy lol | 21:14 |
| tontsa | you could just try to unpack the .deb and place the lib in /usr/lib :) | 21:15 |
| Fang64 | not a bad idea | 21:15 |
| Fang64 | it still would be nice to know why that package isn't behaving properly | 21:15 |
| tontsa | dpkg doesn't complain or anything? | 21:16 |
| Fang64 | it does | 21:16 |
| Fang64 | mentions /usr/bin/clear | 21:16 |
| Fang64 | it attempts to rename it | 21:16 |
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| Fang64 | I tried making a fake file it didn't like that lol | 21:16 |
| tontsa | weird stuff | 21:16 |
| Fang64 | I know there is a busybox.clear file dunno if it's related | 21:16 |
| Fang64 | indeed | 21:16 |
| tontsa | didn't os2007 have bash at some point? | 21:17 |
| Fang64 | actually let me link you to the error someone else posted it up as well | 21:17 |
| Fang64 | http://pastebin.ca/642663 | 21:18 |
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| Fang64 | that's the identical situation I have | 21:18 |
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| Fang64 | Unique311 mentioned it here in this chat which I'm not sure if he figured it out | 21:19 |
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| tontsa | i don't know that much about os2007, but has it always come with busybox? | 21:20 |
| tontsa | or did it have bash at some point | 21:20 |
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| Fang64 | I think you can get bash shell | 21:21 |
| Fang64 | but it has busybox out of the box | 21:21 |
| Fang64 | at least since I've had mine | 21:21 |
| Fang64 | I haven't had it but for 2 weeks now | 21:21 |
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| skibur | wow | 21:22 |
| Fang64 | ? | 21:22 |
| skibur | I was trying to stick to the one month with my N800, but I couldn't. | 21:23 |
| skibur | I couldn't do simple stuff | 21:23 |
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| skibur | N800 - OS2008 still needs apps | 21:23 |
| Fang64 | indeed | 21:23 |
| tontsa | Fang64, yeah looks like your repo that comes with ncurses is braindamaged or never has been installed on actual n800/os2007 | 21:23 |
| Fang64 | that's why I haven't moved up | 21:23 |
| L0cutus | http://shop.nokia.it/nokia-it/product.aspx?sku=3759852 | 21:24 |
| skibur | ? | 21:24 |
| L0cutus | seems it is now available also in Italy :) | 21:24 |
| Fang64 | ah | 21:24 |
| skibur | nice | 21:24 |
| Fang64 | what repo has a copy of ncurses-bin that works | 21:24 |
| Fang64 | seems that was a fail | 21:24 |
| skibur | so is it safe to say that N810 has the official OS2008? | 21:24 |
| tontsa | skibur, mine has atleast | 21:25 |
| tontsa | i bought it this friday | 21:25 |
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| Fang64 | I ran the OS2008 when I first got it to play around abit the applications definitely are lacking but, I was running the N810 version via fake macid | 21:26 |
| Fang64 | decided to switch back when I looked at the repo | 21:27 |
| tontsa | well there's lots of thirdparty repos with stuff | 21:27 |
| tontsa | atleast only thing i'm missing right now is vnc | 21:27 |
| tontsa | other stuff is there | 21:27 |
| skibur | nice | 21:27 |
| Fang64 | http://www.gronmayer.com/it/ thats where I went to hunt for it | 21:28 |
| skibur | Tontsa, you bought N810? | 21:28 |
| tontsa | yep that page has nice list of repos | 21:28 |
| tontsa | skibur, yep | 21:28 |
| Fang64 | ncurses from there was a fail lol | 21:28 |
| skibur | nice | 21:28 |
| tontsa | Fang64, maybe check if multiple repos have ncurses | 21:28 |
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| skibur | I was going to buy N810, but I decided on the N800 | 21:29 |
| tontsa | i love the keyboard on n810 | 21:29 |
| Fang64 | uhm your right but I remember trying the other two and they wouldn't work but I'll try again | 21:29 |
| skibur | I hope that the WiMAx chip will come soon | 21:29 |
| Fang64 | didn't verizon say they are coming out with the N800 WiMax Enabled | 21:29 |
| Fang64 | or is nokia planning to release a SD WiMax card or something? | 21:30 |
| Fang64 | or bluetooth | 21:31 |
| tontsa | bluetooth wimax wouldn't make much sens | 21:32 |
| tontsa | e | 21:32 |
| Fang64 | yah | 21:33 |
| Fang64 | it'd be horrible | 21:33 |
| skibur | yeah | 21:33 |
| skibur | 30 feet internet | 21:33 |
| skibur | \:) | 21:33 |
| tontsa | i'm guessing it's either SD card or just totally new unit with diffrent radio | 21:33 |
| skibur | hum... Wimax SD card | 21:33 |
| skibur | is that even possible? | 21:33 |
| Fang64 | well there is a WiMax chip destined for a SD card | 21:34 |
| * |R happy: nokia is activating discount codes for canadians! :] | 21:34 | |
| Fang64 | not sure who is going to get it | 21:34 |
| tontsa | well there exists wlan sd cards so i'm sure it's possible | 21:34 |
| Fang64 | it was on engadget or something I was reading | 21:34 |
| tontsa | how much are you guys getting discount | 21:35 |
| skibur | Do you really think nokia would wanna sell sd card Wimax chips? when they can easily sell you a new N800 unit for more money? | 21:35 |
| Fang64 | it wouldn't be nokia | 21:36 |
| Fang64 | it'd probably be the providers themselves | 21:36 |
| Fang64 | but I doubt the N800 will get it just saying there will be SD WiMax cards just not meant for the N800 | 21:36 |
| |R | tontsa : i'm not sure yet what the canadian price will be... it was 99 euros | 21:37 |
| tontsa | if wimax is over there provider oriented, then i guess you will just see "special editions" sold by the provider | 21:37 |
| |R | (final price, not a discount) | 21:37 |
| Fang64 | indeed | 21:37 |
| tontsa | that's a huge discount then | 21:37 |
| tontsa | i had to pay 560 euros for n810 | 21:38 |
| Fang64 | verizon I believe has a branded version coming | 21:38 |
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| tontsa | but that was just because i was eager to get the unit, so i bought it straight from nokia's walk-in shop | 21:39 |
| tontsa | the actual price is around 450 euros when big retailers get their stock | 21:39 |
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| Andy80 | just a question... I live in Italy and our government is doing the challenge to assign the wimax licenses..... so we haven't wimax yet... anyway the question is: which are the countries where wimax is already active and working? | 21:40 |
| tontsa | we have it here in Finland.. but it's damn expensive | 21:40 |
| Fang64 | we have it here stateside if you wanna pay 50~70 dollars a month | 21:40 |
| Fang64 | at least where I am at on the east coast | 21:41 |
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| Andy80 | tontsa, Fang64 : what about the coverage of wimax? is it really accessible from everywhere, just like we have UMTS connection? | 21:42 |
| Fang64 | I couldn't tell you I don't know anyone using it in my area | 21:43 |
| tontsa | Andy80, the coverage is gradually building.. over there it's mainly targetted for "summer cottage" areas | 21:43 |
| Fang64 | most people use EDGE or EVDO if they want Internet on the go | 21:43 |
| Sho_ | Here in Germany there are only a few small WIMAX networks for corporate users that partially cover some of the bigger cities - the big carrier companies haven't touched it so far, afaik | 21:43 |
| Fang64 | which is 3G internet service basically | 21:43 |
| Andy80 | mmm.... interesting... | 21:43 |
| tontsa | problem with wimax is the available bandwith per basestation | 21:44 |
| Fang64 | I have a friend who actually uses EVDO for his Internet service at his home with a router which provides around 300~500kbps | 21:44 |
| Andy80 | Fang64: yes... we (italy) mainly use UMTS (300 kbits) and, recently HDSPA (about 3,4 Mbits) to connect | 21:44 |
| Fang64 | which isn't bad for 3g | 21:44 |
| tontsa | since you can get wide coverage per basestation so operators here are atleast struggling to provider better than 1mbps for user | 21:44 |
| tontsa | provide* | 21:45 |
| Fang64 | I'm in North Carolina, Charlotte which is quite a big city at least for my area but that's about the only place providing WiMax | 21:45 |
| Andy80 | I think this: if wimax/hdspa was more spread... we could basically always use VOIP instead of expensive mobile phones :P | 21:45 |
| skibur | I was just thinking... If its going to be 50-70 dollars, is it going to be unlimited ACCESS? :P | 21:45 |
| Fang64 | well here it is | 21:46 |
| skibur | mexico? | 21:46 |
| Andy80 | 50$ for unlimited access, considering I could use VOIP everywhere... well... it's cheap :) | 21:46 |
| Fang64 | I believe AT&T wants to implement WiMax here as well they already have the infrastructure in place just need to turn the services on | 21:47 |
| Andy80 | actually we pay 50-90 euros to have about 1000-1500 minutes/month of mobile phone calling | 21:47 |
| Andy80 | without internet access | 21:47 |
| skibur | On December 5, 2007, Bin Shen, Sprint's VP of Product Management and Partnership Development, announced that Sprint's WiMAX network will go live in a soft launch in Chicago, Baltimore, and Washington DC. Full commercial launch is still expected to be approximately spring of 2008. | 21:48 |
| Fang64 | They keep sending out newsletters informing customers of new services coming up one of them they tout is WiMax dunno if it'll happen | 21:48 |
| Fang64 | yet at least | 21:48 |
| Fang64 | Verizon tacks on 15 dollars a month for internet services if you want to pair your phone with a device | 21:49 |
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| Fang64 | I'm paying 50 dollars a month as is | 21:49 |
| Andy80 | Fang64: you pay 50$ to have what exactly? | 21:50 |
| Fang64 | just mobile service and 700 minutes of calling | 21:50 |
| Fang64 | lol | 21:50 |
| Fang64 | if I tacked on 15 bucks | 21:50 |
| Fang64 | I'd could get data service | 21:50 |
| Fang64 | I* | 21:50 |
| Andy80 | how much does it cost an UMTS data service there? (UMTS is about 300-350 kbits/s) | 21:51 |
| Fang64 | The only reason I haven't AT&T have a blanket over the city with WiFi Towers | 21:51 |
| Fang64 | if you have AT&T Broadband service you get their WiFi access with it | 21:51 |
| Fang64 | I rarely not seea WiFi tower marked att | 21:51 |
| Andy80 | no... I mean something accessible from everywhere (everywhere your mobile phone has signal) | 21:52 |
| Fang64 | verizon tacking on Vcast will get you the internet | 21:52 |
| Fang64 | which is 15 a month | 21:52 |
| Andy80 | for example... we have a very cheap solution here... I pay 9€ / month to have unlimited (in time) UMTS connection, but limited to 50 mb/day | 21:52 |
| Fang64 | that's anywhere you have a signal | 21:52 |
| Fang64 | no limit | 21:53 |
| Andy80 | ah cool... | 21:53 |
| Fang64 | Verizon pumps Video over their Vcast service | 21:53 |
| Fang64 | so it has to have some speed | 21:53 |
| Fang64 | you can watch tv on your phone | 21:53 |
| Fang64 | which is a bit overkill | 21:53 |
| Andy80 | very very cool :) | 21:53 |
| skibur | I'm learn a lot about the WiMax on Wiki. :) | 21:53 |
| skibur | *learning | 21:53 |
| Fang64 | I think if they limited you to 50mb on that service jesus | 21:53 |
| Fang64 | you couldn't watch a show | 21:54 |
| Andy80 | eheh | 21:54 |
| Andy80 | Fang64: I cannot use youtube too ;) | 21:54 |
| skibur | lol | 21:54 |
| Fang64 | AT&T has similar services | 21:54 |
| skibur | No more Chocolate RAIN!!! | 21:54 |
| Andy80 | Fang64: but there are other data plans, for example... you get 5 Gb/week for only 20 euro/month | 21:54 |
| Fang64 | problem with them they are crazy priced | 21:54 |
| Fang64 | ah | 21:54 |
| Andy80 | but... in this case you have to sign a contract with them for at least 2 years | 21:55 |
| Fang64 | ah | 21:55 |
| fysa | I believe you can get a Boost prepaid voice phone with tethering data for $12/mo | 21:55 |
| Fang64 | yup Nextel has dataservice plans as well i believe they are a bit more though | 21:56 |
| Fang64 | and so does sprint | 21:56 |
| fysa | yeah, but they don't work with prepaid voice | 21:56 |
| fysa | pay-as-you-go | 21:56 |
| Fang64 | even though they are the same company everything is still a big mess | 21:56 |
| Fang64 | yup | 21:56 |
| fysa | they do? | 21:56 |
| Fang64 | yah | 21:56 |
| Fang64 | Nextel and Sprint both have data services | 21:56 |
| Fang64 | well it's the same company two types of service | 21:56 |
| Fang64 | one is over GSM the other is CDMA | 21:57 |
| Fang64 | it's getting a bit mixed but it's still sort of split service | 21:57 |
| fysa | how much? | 21:57 |
| Andy80 | anyway... with 20 euro/month, 5 gb/week dataplan, you get 3,4 Mbit connection, don't forget it :) | 21:57 |
| Fang64 | well for unlimited it was like 10$ a month but that isn't tethering | 21:57 |
| Fang64 | that's just for wap access | 21:57 |
| Fang64 | they have different plans | 21:58 |
| Fang64 | like 50$ rate for unlimited | 21:58 |
| Fang64 | at least last time I checked | 21:58 |
| Fang64 | this was 3 years ago | 21:58 |
| Fang64 | because you could use it as a broadband modem with a usb cable | 21:58 |
| fysa | I'd like to find a cheap tethering setup and use one of those pocket wifi devices to share it out | 21:59 |
| Fang64 | jesus it's went up | 21:59 |
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| Fang64 | 60 dollars a month | 21:59 |
| fysa | and keep it in the car | 21:59 |
| Andy80 | yes... it's the thing I do with my N770 device :) offcourse via bluetooth ;) | 21:59 |
| Fang64 | for unlimited service | 21:59 |
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| Fang64 | Nextel/Sprint = out of their minds | 21:59 |
| Fang64 | lol | 21:59 |
| Fang64 | 40 dollars if you want 20mb limit | 21:59 |
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| timeless | andy80: s/n770/nokia 770/ | 22:03 |
| Andy80 | yes.... Nokia 770, N800, N810.... just an abbreviation :) | 22:04 |
| skibur | skibur | 22:04 |
| skibur | skibur | 22:04 |
| skibur | http://users.tamuk.edu/ksjas29/images/screenshot00.png | 22:04 |
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| timeless | blame nokia | 22:10 |
| timeless | but please don't abbreviate that way | 22:10 |
| timeless | nokia could easily make a product by that name | 22:10 |
| shackan | their problem :) | 22:10 |
| halley | Er, I'm not going to be badgered on how to abbreviate things based on some corporation's possible trademark status, future or present. | 22:11 |
| Fang64 | lol | 22:11 |
| halley | Did you also grow up correcting your friends when they said "Legos"? | 22:11 |
| Fang64 | I hate repos with rogue packages been fighting with this error for 2 days now | 22:12 |
| Fang64 | lol | 22:12 |
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| zxczxc | Alex look that- http://wolfgang-city.myminicity.com/ | 22:12 |
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| timeless | i correct my coworkers | 22:12 |
| timeless | is that sufficient? | 22:12 |
| halley | Sounds like something for /msg or email then. | 22:14 |
| timeless | if someone said they were using Debian Linux | 22:17 |
| timeless | but they were actually using Red Hat Linux | 22:17 |
| gomiam | erm... does Skype support video conferencing on N800? | 22:17 |
| timeless | would you correct them? | 22:17 |
| timeless | no | 22:17 |
| Fang64 | Tontsa: thanks for helping me out although it should have been common sense | 22:17 |
| timeless | not on the n810 either for that matter | 22:17 |
| gomiam | oh, funny. I thought some version already supported it. It isn't critical anyway | 22:18 |
| gomiam | after thinking a bit about it, I'm starting to see the N810 as a bad proposition for a tinkerer: just one _micro_SD slot, integrated GPS receiver (that may or may not be turned off at will)... | 22:19 |
| gomiam | perhaps I'm rationalizing, but I find the ability of connecting things by Bluetooth on a whim a bit more interesting. | 22:19 |
| gomiam | not that it matters, though. | 22:19 |
| gomiam | I'm not going to buy the N810 any time soon yet. | 22:20 |
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| timeless | gomiam: that's your right | 22:20 |
| gomiam | and my left ;-) | 22:20 |
| timeless | personally, i'd buy an n800 and a nice bt gps | 22:20 |
| gomiam | timeless: I already have. Now I have to ponder whether to get a Palm Bluetooth keyboard to round it all up | 22:21 |
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| fysa | I bought one of those new Apple Wireless keyboards (the thin/small one with full-sized keys) for my N800 and it ended up replacing the big IBM M keyboard for my desktop too. | 22:24 |
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| timeless | cool | 22:25 |
| doublec | heh, comp usa are advertising the N810 as Nokia N810 Wireless Phone | 22:25 |
| * timeless cries | 22:27 | |
| timeless | remind me on monday to contact someone here so we can complain | 22:27 |
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| timeless | SOLD OUT for delivery | 22:27 |
| timeless | nice | 22:27 |
| * timeless frowns | 22:28 | |
| timeless | their description of flash9 is wrong | 22:28 |
| timeless | the flash9 we ship doesn't include camera | 22:28 |
| timeless | or microphone | 22:28 |
| timeless | oh man | 22:29 |
| timeless | and the English is terrible | 22:29 |
| * timeless curses | 22:29 | |
| timeless | can't they find a native speaker to at least proof read the text? | 22:29 |
| fysa | they fired everyone, remember? | 22:30 |
| timeless | i don't mean compusa | 22:30 |
| timeless | i mean nokia | 22:30 |
| fysa | ah | 22:31 |
| doublec | product descriptions are always awlful and often wrong | 22:32 |
| doublec | in NZ vodafone often get the spec's of the nokia phones wrong | 22:32 |
| doublec | like they'll say it has a radio when it doesn't, or that it has wireless when it doesn't, etc | 22:32 |
| doublec | are the n810's actually on sale? | 22:33 |
| timeless | doublec: nz doesn't have consumer protection rules that enable you to sue or something? | 22:33 |
| timeless | n810s have been on sale/sold out for weeks :) | 22:34 |
| timeless | it's like Wii's, but w/ fewer stores | 22:34 |
| timeless | :) | 22:34 |
| doublec | timeless: we have a 'consumer guarantees act' that means you can take stuff back, get compensation, etc | 22:34 |
| doublec | nice | 22:34 |
| doublec | I'm in the US for two more days so was hoping to find a lone N810 somewhere | 22:34 |
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| timeless | good luck w/ that | 22:34 |
| doublec | yes, it's proving a challenge :) | 22:34 |
| * timeless suggests just having moco ship two back | 22:35 | |
| doublec | hmmm, good idea | 22:35 |
| doublec | I'd be lost without my N800 literally | 22:35 |
| doublec | maemo-mapper, bluetooth gps and google maps have helped me drive around here | 22:35 |
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| timeless | :) | 22:35 |
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| doublec | even though I keep missing my freeway exits | 22:35 |
| timeless | btw, you might consider http://timeless.justdave.net/maemo/microb-pageupdown-0.1.deb | 22:35 |
| * Jaffa tries to find a suction or vent-clip for the back of an N810 car mount: screwing into my dashboard ain't never gonna happen. | 22:35 | |
| timeless | depending on how you use your browser | 22:36 |
| doublec | and I didn't believe maemo mapper when it told me where my hotel was and drove around for ages | 22:36 |
| Jaffa | timeless: you should upload that to extras-devel | 22:36 |
| doublec | and it ended up being right | 22:36 |
| timeless | jaffa: "how" :) | 22:36 |
| timeless | doublec; heh | 22:37 |
| timeless | you don't trust computers? :) | 22:37 |
| doublec | definitely not :) | 22:37 |
| doublec | who knew that e el camino real and w el camino real swap at random points along the road | 22:37 |
| fysa | is it possible to get microb to launch mplayer? | 22:37 |
| timeless | doublec: i could have told you that :) | 22:38 |
| timeless | fysa: care to be more specific? | 22:38 |
| fysa | 'Media player' is the default app when I open an .avi | 22:38 |
| doublec | hehe | 22:38 |
| timeless | fysa: that's controlled by .desktop files | 22:38 |
| timeless | basically if you change the media player file | 22:39 |
| skibur | hum... I guess I will wait a little longer for the official OS2008 bin for N800. | 22:39 |
| timeless | to claim less file types | 22:39 |
| timeless | skibur: good for you | 22:39 |
| timeless | fysa: alternatively, you could muck w/ the mime db which is generated from those files | 22:40 |
| fysa | digging | 22:40 |
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| timeless | but it's definitely better to make sure the .desktop files don't stick around and regenerate them | 22:40 |
| fysa | -> /usr/share/applications/[application_name].desktop | 22:40 |
| timeless | fysa: give me info for where your mplayer .desktop file is, and i'll write a deb to "fix" this :) | 22:40 |
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| fysa | hmm | 22:41 |
| fysa | http://slack.bglinux.org/050_mplayer/mplayer.desktop | 22:41 |
| fysa | http://osdir.com/ml/video.mplayer.cvs/2006-09/msg00031.html | 22:42 |
| fysa | we would want to specifiy the MimeType= in the .desktop for it to work properly? | 22:42 |
| fysa | or is the mimedb relating MimeType with "Video" already? | 22:43 |
| fysa | and just specifying "Video" is preferred? | 22:43 |
| fysa | (Video, e.g., others also) | 22:43 |
| fysa | will use both for now | 22:44 |
| timeless | look at hildon/mp_ui.desktop | 22:45 |
| fysa | would we want to replace that? | 22:45 |
| timeless | define "replace" | 22:45 |
| timeless | at the very least, your entry should probably list something similar to that | 22:46 |
| fysa | If we have an mplayer.desktop that offers the same MimeTypes, would it conflict? or could we set priority? | 22:46 |
| timeless | which clearly includes quite a few elements in MimeTypes= | 22:46 |
| timeless | i dunno | 22:46 |
| fysa | we'll see :) | 22:46 |
| timeless | and i don't really feel like reading the source code | 22:46 |
| timeless | good idea? :) | 22:46 |
| fysa | yeah, don't sweat it. | 22:46 |
| fysa | thanks for pointing me here, I'll figure it out and send you the .desktop file when I have it working smoothly. | 22:46 |
| fysa | it will be very nice for mediaserv. | 22:46 |
| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/maemo/source/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-desktop/src/ | 22:47 |
| timeless | hrm | 22:47 |
| timeless | no xref db? odd | 22:47 |
| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/maemo/source/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-fm/ | 22:48 |
| * timeless shrugs | 22:48 | |
| timeless | you can either try reading sources from there | 22:48 |
| timeless | http://timeless.justdave.net/mxr-test/chinook/find?string=hildon | 22:48 |
| timeless | is probably easier | 22:48 |
| timeless | since it is actually indexed | 22:48 |
| timeless | anyway, i think enough of that stuff is open source, you can probably figure out how it works | 22:50 |
| timeless | note: priority should *not* be settable in .ini like files | 22:50 |
| timeless | that's stupid | 22:50 |
| timeless | everyone would say "i want priority 1" | 22:50 |
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| timeless | there *should* be a ui for dealing w/ that | 22:51 |
| timeless | if there isn't one, file a bug :) | 22:51 |
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| fysa | usually handled by "Open with.. " and "[ ] Always open with" | 22:52 |
| timeless | how does one deal w/ the case of "[x] already always opening with" :) | 22:52 |
| timeless | simple minded developers :) | 22:52 |
| fysa | you have to get into the settings (which I don't think we have) to reset it | 22:52 |
| fysa | ugh, gmplauncher already makes an mplayer.desktop | 22:53 |
| fysa | but it runs gmplauncher instead. | 22:53 |
| * timeless rotfl | 22:53 | |
| fysa | mplayer_ui.desktop :/ | 22:53 |
| timeless | files are great | 22:54 |
| timeless | especially conflicts in system directories | 22:54 |
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| fysa | ahhh battery just died, auto-hibernate | 22:56 |
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| android | hi | 23:16 |
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| alterego | Interesting choice of name. | 23:16 |
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| android | do you think that this object is compatible with the N800/N810? : http://www.powerpal.fr/UI/Templates/ProductSpace/Product.aspx?Product=23&Family=16 | 23:16 |
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| alterego | Probably. | 23:21 |
| alterego | If it's compatible with newish Nokia handsets it will be. | 23:21 |
| tontsa | n810 is atleast using the standard smaller-plug charger | 23:22 |
| tontsa | so should be | 23:22 |
| alterego | All the tablets use the standard charger socket .. | 23:23 |
| android | but there is only 2 batteries of 1.5v, I think that is not suffisant tu use the N800, no? | 23:23 |
| alterego | The 770,N800,N810 use a 3.3v Li-Ion battery. | 23:24 |
| alterego | If it works with other Nokia products, it'll work with the tablets. | 23:24 |
| android | great, I think I will buy one | 23:24 |
| * timeless looks for a russian speaker | 23:28 | |
| * timeless is trying to verify that an email is spam | 23:28 | |
| alterego | My new desktop is so sweet :D | 23:29 |
| derf | An online Russian-English translator isn't enough? | 23:29 |
| timeless | new desktop? | 23:29 |
| alterego | Probably beats my tablet as the best purchase of this year .. | 23:30 |
| alterego | Actually, it doesn't. The desktop was free .. | 23:30 |
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| alterego | Just finished installing and customizing it. | 23:31 |
| alterego | http://alterego.freeshell.org/ubuntu-64-20071215-211528.png | 23:31 |
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| * timeless wonders how well spam translates | 23:31 | |
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| bz_g | hello there | 23:33 |
| bz_g | any lurkers around? | 23:33 |
| * timeless looks aroudn | 23:33 | |
| timeless | nothing here but us chickens? | 23:33 |
| bz_g | :) | 23:33 |
| bz_g | I'm on the N800/N810 dilemma... | 23:33 |
| * alterego sets up the maemo SDK in a KVM VE | 23:33 | |
| timeless | generally lurkers don't talk | 23:34 |
| bz_g | (But just opened my new N800) | 23:34 |
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| bz_g | I tried to upgrade to N810 but got a "invalid product key" when trying to download the stuff | 23:34 |
| shackan | upgrade to n810 ? wow I want to do that too... | 23:35 |
| alterego | Yeah .. Wish I had _that_ product key :D | 23:35 |
| timeless | n810 is hardware | 23:35 |
| tontsa | so you add hardware keyboard by software updater? | 23:35 |
| timeless | you don't want an n810 flash | 23:35 |
| timeless | the os is something like it os 2008 | 23:36 |
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| tontsa | isn't os2008 anyway distributed as free upgrade for n800 soon | 23:36 |
| timeless | and at this time if you can't figure out how to get the beta, you shouldn't | 23:36 |
| timeless | because it'll be a disappointment | 23:36 |
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| bz_g | timeless: sorry I meant upgrade to OS2008 | 23:37 |
| bz_g | tontsa: it is already | 23:38 |
| timeless | it isn't | 23:38 |
| bz_g | timeless: ? | 23:38 |
| timeless | there's a beta | 23:38 |
| bz_g | timeless: yes | 23:38 |
| timeless | but if you can't find it, you shouldn't use it\ | 23:38 |
| bz_g | timeless: why do you mean it will be a disappointment? | 23:38 |
| bz_g | timeless: (I found it) | 23:39 |
| timeless | depends on what you use, but there are some relatively painful bugs... | 23:39 |
| bz_g | like? | 23:39 |
| gomia1 | bz_g: there is this pesky nemathode... | 23:39 |
| gomia1 | oh, you don't mean that kind of bugs | 23:39 |
| bz_g | timeless: do you mean bugs for the N800 0S2008 release of for the 0S2008 in general ? | 23:39 |
| bz_g | I'm still hesitating between N800 and N810 | 23:40 |
| timeless | technically in general, in practice it's more of a problem for n800 | 23:40 |
| tontsa | what i've used retail n810 now for 2 days only bug so far i've found is the unreliable bluetooth packet data via Nokia E70 | 23:40 |
| timeless | they're fixed in the final os2008 for n800 | 23:40 |
| timeless | but that doesn't exist yet | 23:40 |
| bz_g | ok | 23:41 |
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| bz_g | anyone here who tried both N800 and N810 ? | 23:41 |
| bz_g | my concern: i'd like to install Emacs (maybe 23) on it | 23:41 |
| bz_g | and I wonder if N8[01]0 is suitable for Emacs | 23:41 |
| bz_g | (I can't imagine using Emacs without a physical keyboard...) | 23:42 |
| bz_g | any Emacsers here? | 23:42 |
| bz_g | ... | 23:43 |
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| bz_g | did I say something wr0ng ? | 23:43 |
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| alterego | emacs really isn't suitable. It's too big and it's not really designed for touch screen user interface. | 23:45 |
| bz_g | alterego: thanks. | 23:46 |
| bz_g | alterego: but then, is it somewhat suitable for the N810 with its physical keyboard? | 23:46 |
| tontsa | i'm happy with my N810, using vim and joe editors | 23:47 |
| tontsa | never been much of an emacs fan | 23:47 |
| alterego | I like emacs, I use it for most things. It's just very big to stick on a small device like the Internet Tablets. | 23:47 |
| alterego | Sure, having a hardware thumb-board is better than using the onscreen keyboard. But that goes with text entry in all applications. That has nothing to do with emacs itself. | 23:48 |
| gomia1 | alterego: and let's not forget the ease of clicking Contorl repeatedly ;-) | 23:48 |
| gomia1 | Control, even | 23:48 |
| bz_g | alterego: right. | 23:48 |
| alterego | Yeah, there's no ctrl key on the VKB .. | 23:49 |
| p| | someone is using an usb keyboard with n800 ? | 23:49 |
| bz_g | tontsa: but are you always typing with the physical keyboard? | 23:49 |
| gomia1 | p|: is that even possible? | 23:49 |
| alterego | p|, several people :) | 23:49 |
| tontsa | bz_g, yep | 23:49 |
| p| | yes | 23:49 |
| tontsa | using the xterm in fullscreen and installed the Google Android fonts | 23:49 |
| gomia1 | oh. Do you mind giving me a reference link? | 23:49 |
| tontsa | those fonts just rock | 23:49 |
| p| | i want to buy one | 23:49 |
| bz_g | tontsa: and do you need lots of keys chords (C-M-[key]) ? | 23:50 |
| p| | but unsure about the model | 23:50 |
| tontsa | bz_g, using ctrl-a and ctrl-k combos all the time (screen and joe) | 23:50 |
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| alterego | Oh neat. I can use VMWare images with KVM. | 23:52 |
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| tontsa | i think you can use vmware images with any virtualization software that uses qemu | 23:53 |
| alterego | Yes, it just didn't occur to me that I'd have that flexibility :) | 23:55 |
| tontsa | ok :) | 23:55 |
| alterego | I can use VMWare Player images without VMWare player :) And run them a lot faster ^_^ | 23:55 |
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| p| | does keyboard and/or mouse work when connected to an usb hub ? | 23:58 |
| alterego | Yes | 23:58 |
| alterego | (Keyboard definitely, not used a Mouse at all) | 23:59 |
| p| | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=108144&postcount=165 | 23:59 |
| p| | because i've read this | 23:59 |
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