IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2007-02-12

Molagidoes anyone got problems of closing the mplayer while playing video00:00
Molagialways freezes00:00
user__hello00:00
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keesjmaddler, I now have maemo-mapper kinda-working00:07
maddlerkeesj: any specific problem?00:08
keesjwell I think I have upgraded the sqlite lib to version 300:09
tigertarghh00:09
tigertWE SUCK00:09
tigert"Updated Internet Tablet OS 2006 release."00:09
tigert"This is the final release of the Internet Tablet OS 2006 edition."00:09
tigert"The latest Internet Tablet OS 2006 release "00:09
tigertthree files00:09
disquh00:09
lle2w00:09
tigerthow on earth do we think people understand this??00:09
tigertfsck00:09
wwalkerI don't understand it, so I must agree00:11
lle2soon it'll all be irrelevant anyway when the new sb2 based sdk takes over the world. all I need now is a good name.00:11
maddlerhehe... yes... that's not so clear00:11
keesjpretty clear its the last and latest release what is wrong?00:11
keesjlast and latest and final :p00:12
keesjbut don't ever hire me!00:12
maddlerit reminds me of Beneath a steel sky... :D00:12
kjetilhokeesj: can you order them chronologically for me?00:13
maddlerI could use the wrench to check the *real* latest version...00:13
maddlerupdated, latest, final :)00:13
* tigert mails about it00:13
tigertyeah "seriously, the final, honest!!"00:13
tigert"update to the seriously absolute final version"00:14
maddler"TAKE ME!" :D00:14
tigert:)00:14
tigertman, this is silly00:14
tigertI guess the files just got added and nobody checked the descriptions of the older ones00:14
maddleryes... looks silly...00:14
maddlerit gives the feeling that no one really cares...00:14
keesjand I have to enable bluetooth by hand...00:15
kjetilhothe descriptions would be fine -- if they were preceded by the release date00:15
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maddlerkeesj: I solved creating a usb-{u[|down} script and a couple .desktop files...00:16
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maddlerkeesj: and now I can turn both BT and USB0 from menu00:16
tigertI think the clue is 1.2006, 2.2006, 3.200600:16
maddlertigert: yep... but a newbie won't find it so fast...00:17
maddlerI think "lastest..." should always point to the "actual" latest...00:17
maddleror else better to have no description...00:17
tigertmaddler: well, *I* was puzzled for a while00:19
tigertand I know this stuff00:20
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tigertoh well, hopefully it gets fixed00:20
tigertwe have so much to learn about release management :=P00:20
maddlertigert: hehehe... drop me a line if I can help... :)00:23
tigertmaddler: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/331 < any of those interest you?00:27
tigertok. sleep time00:32
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tigertsee you tomorrow00:32
disqnight.00:33
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maddlerlemme see...00:33
maddleroh... we were talking about that yesterday... ;)00:34
maddlerlooks like that's not only my brain that's going away... :D00:34
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keesjmaddler, what do you use usb for?00:49
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Markovis there another way to accept autocomplete aside00:54
Markovfrom touching word?00:55
kjetilhowhat do you suggest instead?00:57
Markova button on the virtual keyboard.00:58
kjetilhowell, that is what it is?00:58
kjetilhoare you talking about the stylus keyboard or the thumb keyboard?00:59
Markovthumb00:59
kjetilhothe non-virtual right arrow key accepts the autocomplete01:00
Markovoooh let me try that out01:00
Markovnice! thanks01:01
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kjetilhoit's amazing how non-obvious that is :-)01:01
kjetilhoI asked here myself -- although I realised it on my own two seconds afterwards :)01:02
Markovheh i just forgot about those buttons .01:02
kjetilhoit took me a long while to realise the round arrow could be used as ESC in XTerm,t oo01:03
kjetilhovi was a real pain before that, let me tell you01:03
Markovheh i'm an emacs man ;)01:05
keesjkjetilho, I use the right arrow to accept01:06
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ocnarfidHi!01:06
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keesjgreets01:08
Markovalso when using hw rec the autocapitalizer doesn't work01:08
Markovi GEt all SOrtS of craziness01:09
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|tbb|401:13
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maddlerkeesj: (sorry for the delay) usb networking01:15
maddlerkeesj: in the place I'm working wi-fi is *forbidden*01:15
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|tbb|heya maddler01:16
|tbb|do u have made an usb network script01:16
maddlerno... simply a 2lines script and a couple .desktop files01:19
maddlerjust to ifconfig usb0 {up|down}01:20
maddlervery basic stuff...01:20
maddlersame for bluetooth...01:20
maddlerfaster than opening control panel...01:21
maddler|tbb|: you don't really need a script for usb networking01:21
maddleryou only need to insmod g_ether module...01:21
maddlerand do ifconfig usb0 up01:22
maddlerand networking is ready...01:22
|tbb|k will try it01:24
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maddler|tbb|: there is an howto on maemo.org01:33
[mbm]there was a package somewhere that gave you an applet to switch ebtween disk and network for usb01:53
saerdnaerwhat was the name of this improved email app for n700?01:57
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hubwhat is a n700?01:57
saerdnaeroh yes01:58
saerdnaerits late01:58
saerdnaerfor an nokia 77001:58
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Schmotshello02:16
SchmotsAnyone used the vmware dev tool?  Are you able to run an apt-get update or install anything in sandbox?02:17
nomisSchmots: do you mean scratchbox? Just use "fakeroot apt-get ..."02:18
Schmotsyeah.. scratchbox sorry02:19
Schmotsthat isn't my current problem.. the problem is I get a 401 erro02:19
Schmotserror02:19
nomisoh.02:20
nomisSorry, cannot test right now.02:20
Schmotsunauthorized access02:20
pbrookare/should you be going through a proxy?02:20
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Schmotsnot going through a proxy02:20
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Schmots#PATH:    n ne n nw w nw n w nw ne nw nw w w w nw s se se sw s s se se e s se e02:22
Schmots#PATH:  e ne e se e se e e s se se s e s se s s e e e ne e e n n e n ne02:22
Schmotswrong window02:22
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SchmotsIt just doesn't make sense02:26
SchmotsFirst off, this may help answer something for me.. is reposity.maemo.org a cluster?02:26
SchmotsI notice multiple ip addresses in the output02:27
[mbm]probably served by multiple machines; pretty common for busy websites02:28
Schmotsyeah, not saying its not.. but if it wasn't a cluster, I would have yet another problem to troubleshoot02:29
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[mbm]I'm guessing that they're somehow out of sync and you're having trouble?02:31
Schmotsno, its not an outof sync database.. its a lack of access permissions02:31
Schmotsits a 40102:31
Schmotsnot local access02:31
Schmotsrepository access02:31
[mbm]then you dont have access to that particular file or directory02:32
Schmotsexactly, but why.  Why don't I have access to the common mameo repositories02:32
[mbm]you typed the wrong url?02:32
Schmotsno02:33
Schmotsthe repositories are there.. I am just not authorized to view them.. I can't even browse to the dir's in a browser02:33
* [mbm] thinks this would go a lot easier if the problem came with a clear example02:33
Schmotsok02:33
pbrookHave you tried manually fetching the url that fails?02:34
SchmotsI can't copy and paste between the vm so bear with me.02:34
Schmotsapt-get update02:34
SchmotsErr http://repository.maemo.org bora/free Packages02:34
Schmots401 Unauthorized [IP: 64.212.198.104 80]02:34
Schmotsyes, I have tried a manual wget02:34
[mbm]that should be http://repository.maemo.org/dists/bora/free/02:35
Schmotsnot in an apt sources.list02:35
Schmotsthats a direct retype of my error output02:35
[mbm]well yeah, but I'm saying look at that url and fiugre out if there's an error02:35
[mbm]ince the file it's trying to fetch is a Package or Package.gz from within there02:35
Schmotsoh yeah, I have02:35
[mbm]looks fine from here02:36
Schmotswhen I get down to the final file, I get the unauthorized even in the browser02:36
Schmotsmaybe maemo has blocked my ISP02:36
[mbm]why?02:36
Schmotsdon't know why.  But thats all I can figure.  I can't tell from the error messages why.. since 64.212.198.104 is repository.maemo.org02:37
[mbm]well, edit your /etc/hosts so repository.maemo.org uses the other ip02:38
Schmotsit switches between trying that and the .12902:38
Schmotsboth reply with the 40102:38
Schmotsunfortunatly I had to rebuild my work laptop windows so I can't try it out of a vm02:39
* [mbm] hasn't gotten a 401 on any one of the packages files in the above url02:40
[mbm](just checked)02:40
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SchmotsI don't suppose anyone here is one of the apache admins for meamo.org are they?02:43
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Schmotsgoing to switch from vmplayer to vmware server to see if the better network support will eleviate my problem02:50
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Schmotsbrb.. server crash at work02:53
Schmots#leave02:53
Schmots#quit02:53
Schmotsdoh02:53
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disqnomis: if you're still there, i just put up 0.25a which should fix your problem02:53
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maddlertime to hit the bed here...03:01
disqnight03:02
maddlerbye dudes...03:06
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nickersI just bought a n800, wonderful device03:26
nickersI want to install some applications, is there any way to specify the ext. SD as the location like on a zaurus03:26
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matt_cIf anyone is interested, I've finally gotten a hang of this dpkg-buildpackage thing: http://www.postneo.com/2007/02/11/packaging-python-imaging-library-for-maemo-30-bora-and-the-n80003:26
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pbrooknickers: Short answer is no.03:27
kjetilhonickers: I don't think you really want to do that?  it makes hot-swapping harder03:27
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nickershmmmm, well how much can I install before I crash :)03:27
pbrooknickers: There's instructions in the FAQ for booting of a SD card. That's probably the easiest way.03:27
* pbrook points at the memory control panel entry.03:28
nickerspbrook: thanks dude!03:28
kjetilhohow big is the builtin flash on n800?03:29
matt_c.. /dev/mtdblock4          251.5M     98.0M    153.5M  39% /03:30
matt_cthere's a ton there.03:30
kjetilhodouble the size of the 770, then.  should be plenty!03:30
matt_cI never ran out of room on / on my 77003:30
nickersis there anyway to video conf with a pc/mac?03:35
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matt_cnickers: see http://www.postneo.com/2007/02/11/packaging-python-imaging-library-for-maemo-30-bora-and-the-n80003:40
matt_cnickers: er not that03:40
matt_cstupid ^C^V03:40
matt_chttp://videovoip.tableteer.nokia.com/03:40
nickerslol thanks I mean i appreciate the packaging and all but the voip is more along the lines03:41
* matt_c hacks on camera.py03:42
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mitchelocisn't there a limited lifetime to the SD card for reading/writing?06:00
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ocnarfid8everybody is gonna die someday06:14
bmidgley_your sd will wear out about the time you can get 32x the capacity for half the price06:15
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Markovhey! how do i copy a file using the file manager?06:35
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Markovwhen i just drag and drop, it moves the file.06:35
Takyou can do copy/paste06:36
Takor "duplicate"06:36
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Markovhow do you duplicate?06:40
Markovcopy and paste is too much menuing06:40
Taktap+hold, Edit->Duplicate06:42
Markovaaah. thanks!06:44
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cesmangpd: you missed it, I had the n800 streaming from my backend07:40
tigertmorning08:12
* cesman perhaps for bed08:13
tigert;)08:14
tigertman, the bus drivers keep the heat very high08:14
[mbm]streaming what?08:14
* tigert takes off the coat08:14
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* zuh hopes it didn't go further than that08:32
tigertnah08:41
tigertnot a sauna :)08:41
suihkulokkisaunabus?08:41
* suihkulokki smells a business model08:41
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Taksaunabus -> outside in winter in finland sounds like a good way to die08:46
tigertwell, there is the pub tram too, so why not.. :)08:48
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plaessuihkulokki: in Estonia we already have these.. ;)09:59
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Guardianmorning maemo10:18
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tigertmorning10:40
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X-Fadetigert: Why is there padding to the left of the mini vkb in Plankton? I don't see it in other themes?11:16
X-FadeIt pushes the vkb a little off the screen to the right?11:16
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AD-N770good morning11:21
maddlermorning all...11:32
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i386anyone working on Mono bindings to Hildon?11:46
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mukundbedboi: the source code repository is now open11:53
tigertX-Fade: hmm11:56
tigertlemme investigate11:56
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X-Fadetigert: I don't know if I saw it in a previous version too.11:57
robtaylori386: didn't alp do some way back when?11:57
robtaylori386: you could probably pick those up and tidy them up11:57
robtaylori386: http://maemo.ndesk.org/11:58
i386robtaylor: rock11:58
i386Im a C# developer without an N800!11:58
i386My partner has one11:58
MDKi386: everaldo and alp have the thing working AFAIK11:59
robtaylori386: go get one then =)11:59
robtaylorMDK: oh, double rock11:59
i386he wants me to write some stuff for him, namely a Google Reader viewer11:59
MDKi386: everaldo said he'll start a garage project will all the stuff11:59
i386MDK: awesome!11:59
bergieMDK: I'm just chatting with Everaldo. I'll try to get his blog on Planet Maemo11:59
MDKbut from what I understood, he has all the nice packaging/devkitting resolved11:59
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MDKbergie: cool11:59
i386zhasper: boo!12:00
zhaspermy n800 got itself into a reboot loop12:00
zhasperwhee!12:00
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everaldoMDK, hi12:00
zhasperi386! fancy meeting you here!12:00
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MDKzhasper: 6sec reboot lopp?12:00
i386I was just talking about you!12:00
MDKeveraldo: hey12:00
everaldobergie, MDK, I am blogging right now12:00
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zhasperMDK, it seems variable. It gets about halfway through the bootup then starts again12:00
bergiegreat, everaldo12:00
i386everaldo: awesome!12:01
zhasperboots up fine from mmc, but then it'll reboot somewhere between 30sec and 120sec later12:01
bergieeveraldo: Piotras is now packaging Midgard libs for Maemo, so we might try to find the time to do bindings :-)12:01
zhasperwhich it always has done, so i havne't been using that12:01
MDKzhasper: the 6sec reboot loop can be fixed with setting/unsetting the r&d mode12:01
zhasperi'm assuming i've filled up the internal flash, but it won't boot up long enough for me to check, even on mmc12:01
zhasperr&d mode == red pill mode?12:02
MDKbergie: heh, you know what Piotras means? ;)12:02
MDKit's like peter-dude12:02
bergieMDK: no, amuse me :-)12:02
MDKor peter-boy12:02
zhasperMDK: btw, i only came here to have a quick whinge to calm myself down before i started digging at it, i wasn't expecting actual help.. thanks! :)12:02
bergienice12:02
kulvezhasper: r&d == research and development. red pill is just a mode in application manager12:02
MDKso it's not really a name in itself12:02
MDKzhasper: no, r&d using the cable and flasher12:03
zhasperoh ues12:03
zhasper--enable-rd or something like that.12:03
zhasperi remember doing that as part of a walkthrough once12:04
i386so why is scratchbox limited to x86 only?12:05
kulvequit12:05
kulvehups12:05
zhasperi386: because you haven't ported it yet :p12:05
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zhasperi386: there's no flasher-3.0 for macosx yet either.12:18
zhasperor linuxppc for that matter12:19
zhasperokay, i've enabled r&d, then disabled it again, but it's still reboot looping12:21
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X-Fadezhasper: Did you update busybox?12:22
zhaspernot recently. did install bash this afternoon though12:23
kulvezhasper: try disable the life guard reset with the flasher12:23
zhasperi saw an update to busybox, but didn't install it yet12:23
kulveinstalling bash sounds dangerous if you don't know what you are doing..12:23
zhasperwhy so?12:24
suihkulokkiunless you tamper /bin/sh , it should be sage12:25
kulveinstalling one binary should be ok, but if you change the default shell to all apps (like linkinh /bin/sh to bash) .. yep12:25
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zhasperi did change my own default shell to be /usr/bin/bash,  but i didn't change the link12:27
zhasperokay, no-lifeguard-reset is set. now it at least gets to the point of asking for my lock code as it's booting, but it's not getting any further... progress bar is about 1/3 of the way across the screen12:28
zhasperat least it turns off if i hold in power button now12:28
fish_btw: i guess there are no n800's for the discount price left? =12:29
fish_)12:29
zhasperthey closed applications a bit over a week ago12:30
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fish_crap.. missed that again12:32
zhasperhrm12:32
monkeyiqheh, you'll have to wait for the n83012:33
zhasperthere's nothing on there that i'm going to hugely miss. i think i'm going to try re-flashing12:33
fish_monkeyiq: is that planned?12:33
zhasperhas anyone got booting from MMC working reliably on the n800 yet?12:33
zhasperfish: it is if they continue to increment by 30 ;)12:33
monkeyiqfish_; was a ++joke;12:33
bergieour first maemo app :-) http://downloads.maemo.org/product/maemoplazer12:33
fish_okay, so a sucessor is planned?12:34
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* monkeyiq missed the 100E deal too, though he is not one of the cool kids12:35
fish_bergie: ah, plazes.. i just thought about registering12:35
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bergiefish_: it isn't yet as useful as it could be, as it only registers your plaze but doesn't do much about the info12:36
bergieonce we get it hooked to apps like Maemo Mapper things get cool12:36
koenbergie: geoclue?12:36
bergieyeah, that's the plan12:36
fish_bergie: does it already support gps?12:36
koenis geoclue still developed?12:36
bergiefish_: Plazes is basically an alternative to using GPS... you can get your physical location from the WiFi access point12:37
bergiekoen: we try to get it back from mothballs :-)12:37
bergiethe idea is to make MaemoPlazer a GeoClue position source, so then apps using geoclue positioning can get their position transparently from either GPS or Plazes12:37
koenbergie: cool12:37
monkeyiqbergie; but how many wifi aps give accurate location data? (that you've seen)12:38
bergie(geoclue already supports gpsd)12:38
fish_bergie: well, i'm a little bit paranoid about given 'plazes.com' my location...12:38
bergiemonkeyiq: Plazes collects a DB where you connect access point MAC address to the physical location12:38
fish_but i must admin it sounds very intresting..12:38
bergieso the WiFI AP doesn't need to know anything about it12:38
bergieif the AP you're using is not yet registered to Plazes maemoplazer will open a new browser window where you can enter its position12:38
monkeyiqbergie; cool, interesting info, I'll take a look at it for playing with the e61+wifi :)12:39
bergieeither via typing the address or by point-clicking on Google Maps12:39
fish_is it possible to add hotspot location with gps infos?12:47
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fish_should be pretty easy to integrate, ie. with a kismet+gps log12:47
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floriangood morning13:01
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mgedminyay, I've got my n800 in my hands13:14
tigerthmm. my maemoplazer does nothing13:17
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tigertdoes one need to put login credentials somewhere?13:22
tigertshould it ask?13:23
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maddlermgedmin: hooray! :D13:24
maddler:D13:24
tigertmaybe i have old crap around13:27
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bergietigert: it should ask13:37
bergietry running from command line if you get some error13:37
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MDKs-ndh-c: ping13:39
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s-ndh-cMDK: yeah iam here13:39
s-ndh-c:)13:39
MDKs-ndh-c: I checked the window title setting13:40
MDKyou're prolly not adding the window to the program13:40
s-ndh-ci did using this addwindow function13:40
MDKyou should create a HildonProgram and set your application name using g_application_set_name13:41
MDKerr, g_set_application_name13:41
MDKcheck here: https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/branches/hildon-libs/hildon-1/examples/hildon-window-example.c13:41
s-ndh-cwill check that again13:41
MDKthe above example will use 'hildon - window' as the user-visible title13:42
s-ndh-cthis g_set_application_name is that something from gtk or is this hildon specific?13:44
bergieMDK: Are we doing something wrong when osso_sysnote.system_note_infoprint refuses to show non-ASCII messages? https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=387&group_id=190&atid=78413:44
s-ndh-cMDK: thx anyways, will try that at home and see if it works13:45
mgedminbergie: are those messages in UTF-8?13:47
mgedminwhat does that exception look like?13:47
bergieI think so... we're not doing anything about them but I believe Plazes API uses UTF-813:47
bergiemgedmin: the exception said something about not being ASCII13:47
bergieI'll try to reproduce it when I'm home13:47
mgedminit would have been useful to copy and paste the exception into the bug report13:48
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MDKs-ndh-c: g_set_application name is glib-specific way of setting application name13:49
MDKwe're just actually using it for something ;)13:50
tigertbergie: ah, I had the old .py files13:50
tigertthat confused it13:50
tigertit remembers the stuff though, I guess its in gconf13:50
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bergietigert: it uses its own config file13:50
MDKbergie: should work fine with UTF-8 out of the box13:50
tigertright13:50
bergieMDK: OK, then the encodings are messed up in Plazes' end13:51
MDKit might be the binding13:51
bergiewe'll look at it a bit later13:51
bergiebut yeah, could be the Python bindings too13:51
bergieI'll reproduce it later today so we can check what the exception was13:51
MDKit definitelly works since we're using the infobanners with all possible translations and language-specific special characters13:51
tigertbergie: you could show a progress banner while it is trying to contact plazes13:52
tigertnow it just seemingly does nothing when you run it13:52
bergietigert: the plan is that it will be run non-interactively13:52
tigertand then after a uncertain amount of time displays the note of your plaze13:52
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tigertbergie: should be possible to disable it too of course :)13:53
bergiethere already is a "maemoplazer_watcher" that gets "network changed" notices from Maemo's network manager13:53
zbenjaminhello @ sll13:53
mgedminbergie: could be you're passing a utf-8 string where the bindings except a unicode string13:53
bergieand then displays the bubbles when needed13:53
bergiemgedmin: ok, I'll look. Now we pass the strings as they are13:53
mgedmincan I restore a os2006 backup on os2007?13:54
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bergietigert: ...so that is why we didn't do a progress indicator13:56
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i386so why is scratchbox limited to x86 only?14:09
i386any technical reason?14:09
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Veggenmgedmin: You might be lucky, and it works. I'd take a look at the backup and see what it actually contains, before trying. Or, just go for it ;)14:12
Veggenbut it's only files and settings etc. - so it *might* actually work, as things aren't *that* changed?14:13
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tigertbergie: ok14:17
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jonek/away14:21
jonek/back14:22
jonek/away14:23
mgedmin/make-up-your-mind14:23
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jonek/back14:24
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maddler /death14:29
maddlerno... it's not working...14:29
joneksorry14:30
c0ffeethat's because you've put a space in front of the slash, maddler14:30
kulveanyone familiar with theora? In our tests theora is equally fast with vfp stuff when comparing to non-vfp with --disable-float. Is this expected result, or have we missed something?14:30
kulvebilboed: any thoughts?14:30
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bilboedkulve, as I said yesterday I seriously doubt there are vfp-specific optimizations in libtheora14:31
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kulvethere is noticeable improvement in vorbis..14:32
kulveI'm not an expert on this area, so my comments might be a bit stupid :) But to me it sounds that using floats and the n800's vfp-unit shouldn't be equally fast as using integer only math in the codec..14:33
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kulvehmm.. actually it seems that there is a slight difference on decoding..14:38
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everaldoMDK, bergie, http://everaldo.simios.org/mono-devkit-for-scratchbox14:41
bergienice14:41
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kulvebut not in encoding..14:43
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zbenjaminkulve, hi i get my rootfs image finally15:13
zbenjaminkulve, i had to use nandsim to get it15:13
zbenjaminkulve, and the developer kernel ;-915:14
kulvewell, good that you did get it after all :)15:15
zbenjaminkulve, i found a #mtd channel and they helped me out ;-)15:16
zbenjamini used the 2.6.20 rc3 kernel and it worked. But for developing in scratchbox i had to go back to my old kernel. Scratchbox does not work with the newest kernel15:17
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kulvezbenjamin: why it doesn't work?15:18
zbenjaminbut a question for all: Is it possible to FORCE the IC daemon to kill a current connection (like the wlan plugin does)15:19
kulveit works fine on my 2.6.19.215:19
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zbenjaminkulve, i tells me there were more than one scratchbox instances running but there weren't. I found a thread about not using it with 2.6.20 rc3 kernel. (i don't use the newest scratchbox)15:20
kulveok15:20
kulveI think that problem should be fixed in the newest SB15:20
zbenjaminbecause of some problems with wlan i have to reestablish a wlan connection when the signal strength is too low. The nokia does not seem to switch to a better wlan-hotspot even if one is available. But if i reconnect by hand it uses the right one. So i thought about a daemon that gets the wlan statistics and kills the connection if it is not good anymore.15:22
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zbenjaminbut i cannot find a api that gives me the possibility to close all connections like the wlan-plugin in the status bar. The only solution i can see is to do a sudo /etc/init.d/wlancond restart any suggestions?15:25
kkitossvb, did you hack the sdl ?15:26
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ZenithDKhi....if I try to run maemo-3.0 rootfs on a Texas Instruments OMAP, it complains about inittab has missing id fields, is there some way to get around this?15:51
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kulveZenithDK: not very accurate question..15:54
kulvewell, I'm off anyway15:54
zbenjaminkulve, ca15:54
ZenithDKokay, let me rephrase it: I want to run the maemo 3.0 rootfs image on my non-Nokia device, but since there have been changes in the inittab stuff, I get errors about missing id fields15:55
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ZenithDKis this well known, or do I need to dig some more before I start asking questions and so?15:56
axiquehi...could anyone tell me the osso_rpc_async_run arguments to run/start osso_worldclock? Would be very nice! Thanks!15:56
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partzenithDK: the rootfs isn't even supposed to work on other devices16:00
kkitoZenithDK, you have only inittab problems?16:01
kkitoyou can run the kernel ok?16:01
ZenithDKwe have compiled our own kernel, but for the rootfs we are using the maemo stuff16:02
kkitoZenithDK, ah ok16:02
ZenithDKpart: why isn't it supposed to work on other devices?16:02
ZenithDKkkito: yes, so far....it fails on the init stuff and thus I don't know if other problems will come up later :)16:03
kkitoZenithDK, but whi do you want maemo on it?16:03
ZenithDKbecause that saves us a lot of work on getting stuff installed, when we use the maemoe stuff all the development stuff are already there16:04
ZenithDKwe used the old 1.0 and 1.1 snapshots with great success, but we need a newer version off elfutils and thought 3.0 would be the way, but alas :)16:04
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partzenithDK: I guess they aren't tested on any other hardware16:11
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s-ndh-carent there other distributions for embeded devices/handhelds/tablets? that maybe have been tested on a wider range of different hardware?16:15
ZenithDKs-ndh-c: we haven't really checked :)16:15
ZenithDKit worked well for what we were doing, so didn't bother too much with it16:16
zuhZenithDK: Any details what the missing id fields are..?-)16:19
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ZenithDKyes, 2 secs16:22
ZenithDKbut I just realized that it is because I need to install scratchbox separately16:22
ZenithDKwe didn't need to do that with the earlier rootfs we used16:23
partzenithDK: if you don't mind me asking, what were you doing?16:23
ZenithDKINIT: version 2.85 booting16:23
ZenithDKINIT: /etc/inittab[1]: missing id field16:23
ZenithDKINIT: /etc/inittab[2]: missing id field16:23
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ZenithDKand as it is quite empty, I'm not surprised :)16:23
ZenithDKpart: sorry, I don't understand that question? what do you mean?16:24
partis this on the rootfs? as in, the device flashable image, and not the tarball which is meant to be used with scratchbox?16:24
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suihkulokkiZenithDK: ..have you read the inittab man page? have you compared the old and new inittab files?16:24
partzenithDK: I'm just curious to learn what you were doing with the rootfs on a non-n800 device16:24
ZenithDKthis is from the tarball, yes, and yes, I just realized that I need scratchbox installed16:24
ZenithDKarh, we have a OMAP Starter Kit 591216:25
ZenithDKwe used a rootfs from openembedded previously I think16:25
ZenithDKwe are mainly using it as a crash-and-burn system, which gets frequent lockups and such :)16:25
ZenithDKdue to our perilious (sp?) coding :)16:26
partnot that much different from the n800 then ;)16:26
ZenithDKheh, guess not ;)16:26
ZenithDKwe are 4 university students in Denmark doing various stuff with the OMAP, it's quite nice to have such a device :)16:27
partzenithDK: the rootstrap tarball isn't that useful without scratchbox, but the rootfs probably has a working inittab16:27
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ZenithDKwe also have an LCD for it, but maemo-1.1 did not look good on a 640x480 screen :)16:27
axiqueHi...would anyone tell me in which tar.gz packacke the clock application+clockapplet is? I don't find it. Thanks16:28
partzenithDK: not surprising16:28
suihkulokkiZenithDK: you said that old rootfs worked fine. did you compare the contents of the /etc/inittab there to the inittab of new rootstrap...?16:28
ZenithDKsuihkulokki: no, but I'll do that now16:29
partaxique: I don't think it's available in a tarball16:29
ZenithDKsuihkulokki: they are wastly different, the 3.0 one is as good as empty16:29
ZenithDKbut as I said, I "forgot" to install scratchbox, so hardly surprising16:30
axiquepart: thanks...even if I didn't want to hear this answer..16:30
partzenithDK: but scratchbox isn't meant to be run on a device...16:31
ZenithDKpart: okay, I thought that installing scratchbox and then putting the maemo-3.0 rootfs on top would give me a working install?16:33
partzenithDK: you are using the rootstrap, which is meant to be used in scratchbox. If you want a rootfs, you should get that instead16:34
partzenithDK: I just downloaded the rootfs tarball, and it includes a non-empty inittab16:35
ssvbkkito: not yet, I experimentad with framebuffer based video output on N800 for mplayer on the last weekend, it mostly works now, but I still needs some polishing and testing16:36
kkitossvb, it runs faster than using xv?16:36
ssvbkkito: s/I/it16:36
ZenithDKpart: I thought it was, but the other guy from the group might have made a small mistake16:37
ZenithDKhe was pretty tired today :P16:37
ssvbkkito: as for scaling, looks like there are some unexpected problems with dynamically generated code on N800 (probably cache coherency issues), it will take a bit more time to get working16:37
partzenithDK: I got the rootfs from http://maemo.org/downloads/d1.php16:38
ZenithDKpart: already downloaded it :) but thanks16:38
ZenithDKtesting it now16:38
ssvbkkito: no, it is not faster, but it seems to be a bit more reliable and does not lock up on video playback16:39
kkitossvb, well nice to know that someone is working on it :)16:39
ZenithDKoh, and the screen is 240x320, not double that :)16:39
partzenithDK: ouch16:40
kkitossvb, did you try to program the dsp?16:40
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kkiton800 is using the dsp gateway, http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net/pub/index.php , i dont know if someone try to program something with it....16:43
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ssvbkkito: no, I did not try it yet. Seems like my todo list is only getting larger with the current amount of free time I have for maemo related development :-/16:44
ssvbkkito: thanks, I know about dspgateway, I even have all the docs and the toolchain downloaded, the only problam is free time16:46
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kkitossvb, eh :) dont worry your work is appreciated here! :D16:47
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kkitossvb, did you look to the /dev/dsptask? there are some device files there, are that files dsp tasks?16:49
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Takhmm - the dsp gateway site doesn't list the omap 2420...16:51
Takoh, but it does in the faq, nm16:52
kkitoTak, the 2420 is supported, it uses the old c55x dsp16:53
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Takso I see now16:53
kkitobut we want to program the IVA and the powerVR !16:54
kkitonot old hard!16:54
Takhah - I'd be happy with a dsp task for nes audio16:54
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Takbtw, I've got the sound flawless on the n800 now16:54
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kkitoTak, perhaps you may want to try to port another nes emu with arm optimitzations16:55
Takwell - all the ones I've seen that have been arm-optimized have a large subset of games that they won't emulate16:56
Takimo it's better to have good emulation at near-perfect speed than bad emulation at blazing speed16:56
tzzssvb: Nokia should be paying you at this point.  The work you do is doubtless contributing to the N800 popularity and was one of the big reasons why I upgraded16:57
ssvbtzz: actually I have not done anything finished and usable for N800 yet, so praising me is too early :)16:59
Stregactually it would be a great marketing scheme and a boot to the developer community if the would pay up like 10ke/month to be shared among the the top contriburtors in the communtiy17:00
TakI dunno - didn't work so well for debian17:01
Streghaven't heard about that.17:01
Taksome people pooled money to pay some of the devs to get etch(?) released sooner17:01
Taka lot of the devs that didn't get paid got snippy about it, and it ended up being a mess17:02
Stregbugger17:02
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tzzssvb: the work you have done for the 770 counts too, I'd say17:05
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tzztak: sure, I mean Nokia should actually hire ssvb, not send him a valentine's day card with money :)17:06
TakI agree - however, moving to helsinki appears to be a requirement17:06
tzztak: or INDT in Brazil :)17:07
tzz(I think they are in Brazil)17:07
Takyeah - I wonder what city17:08
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tzzanyone else annoyed that the new Nokia E90 doesn't run ITOS 2007? :)17:09
kkitotzz, what os runs the E90?17:12
kkitosymbian?17:12
tzzS60 as usual17:14
tzzall the Nokia smartphones run S60 at this point17:14
tzzit's not a bad OS, I just wish I had Maemo on a nice device with a keyboard like the E9017:14
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tzzOTOH, it's over $1000, so perhaps it's better that I am not lusting after it17:15
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Takhmm, looks like indt is in brasilia and manaus17:20
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kkitohttp://tree.celinuxforum.org/pubwiki/moin.cgi/JapanTechnicalJamboree6?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=DSPGateway_Celf_Jamboree6.ppt <- document from nokia explaining how to use the dsp on the 770 and some pseudocode... i dont know if you knew it17:27
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Takkkito: nice, thanks17:28
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kkitowell in the doc they says: Future Work: OMAP2420 support (including IVA support)17:31
kkito:D17:31
X-Fadekkito: http://komalshah.blogspot.com/17:33
X-Fadekkito: You might find that interesting..17:33
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Veggenbut, what's the best phone for using together with a N800? I need a new phone very soon.17:35
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VeggenIdeally, I think I'd like 3Gs extended data capacity but don't need that many features :)17:35
kkitoX-Fade, thanks I am reading the blog...:)17:36
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Takyou think anyone@nokia would care if I rehosted that ppt (on garage) as a pdf?17:37
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kkitoTak, i dont know :/ but nokia people really look at garage or planet maemo etc?17:44
* Tak shrugs17:45
Takit's more that I don't want to do it if they don't want me to17:45
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everaldoMDK, ping19:07
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tko"On developer support, Nokia's record is also quite good, especially compared to some other efforts. This applies particularly to the area of documentation. The maemo site has some of the best developer documents of any open source project I've seen, and in some ways approaches the quality of documentation for the best proprietary products."19:16
koengive me some of that shit he's smoking19:16
chxNokia E90. Similar resolution. Same CPU. Anyone though on putting Maemo on it?19:17
tkokoen, here: http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8033409446.html19:17
zuhtko: heh, that's almost as good as giving Nokia credit for a "hardware easter egg" ;)19:17
fish_does someone tried to port zenity to maemo? or something like that?19:17
tigertfish, not aware of it, but i would love to see it also19:18
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ajturnerMaemo does have good docs - when compared to most o/s projects:)19:18
tigertrtfs!19:19
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sp3000there are /some/ good docs19:19
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fish_tigert: well.. the problem is that i'm too stupid to port something like that.. thats because i want zenity so i can write my stuff in sh ;)19:20
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fish_s/because/why/ ehh.. whatever19:20
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fish_i'm to stupid for english too i guess19:20
fish_;)19:20
* mgedmin is trying to compile zenity for fish_ now19:21
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tkofish_, I'd imagine anyone mastering clueful copypasting could extend zenity for hildon19:21
tigertfish, exactly my reason too =)19:21
robtaylorhey, what kind of touchscreen do the 770/800 have?19:22
tkoall it basically does is mapping --options to gtk_do_foo() and printing something to stdout as return value19:22
tkorobtaylor, big one?19:22
ajturnersingle-touch19:22
mgedminmissing build deps...19:22
robtaylortko: 7 wire resistive?19:22
tkorobtaylor, oh, my understanding of touchscreens is on the level of 'a screen you can touch'19:22
robtaylorheh :)19:23
fish_mgedmin: well, so far i got too19:23
robtaylortko: i was just pondering on the maths for detecting finger versus stylus19:23
tkorobtaylor, pressure19:24
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tigertri tested maemopad+ today again. wow.19:25
robtaylorah yeah, must be 7 wire resistive then19:25
tigertthe pressure support, while crude due to the bad touchscreen, is still sweet19:25
tigerts/ri/I/19:26
ajturnerbtw - what does everyone use for PIM? and sync? GPESync & GPE-calendar?19:26
tigerti hate pim19:26
tigertjust like email :)19:26
tigerti wish google cal worked19:26
robstertigert: plankton is sweet ;-)19:26
ajturnerwell, was just discussing this weekend - I had a palm in '95 that did PIM well, now in 2007 I'm still wanting for a good, mobile information manager19:26
ajturnertigert - I thought you hated email?19:26
ajturner:)19:26
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VReajturner: Welcome to the club19:27
ajturnerwell, and the N800/770 should be *really great* at it19:28
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ajturnernot to mention auto-routing to calendar events and contacts ;)19:28
VReajturner: Actually the most I'm afraid that these new gizmos will run out of the battery like *ziiip* .. good olde palm lasted for few weeks19:28
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tigertajturner, yes. that too :)19:31
robtaylortigert: oh yeah, kudos on plankton, its made me able to use my N800 without being embaressed at the awful default themes19:32
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ajturnerVRe - batt time is nice19:32
mgedminthey aren't awful19:32
robtaylortigert: what was your solution to the 16k dithering problem in the end?19:32
* mgedmin goes to search for a .deb of plankton anyway19:32
tigertcovert -colors 32000 -dither19:33
ajturnerso I guess the answer is no one has a good PIM setup for their tablet?19:33
tigertconvert even :)19:33
robtaylortigert: hah. cool19:34
tigerttheres "dates" and gpe-calendar19:34
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ajturneris anyone here using either?19:37
Andy80hi19:38
TakI recently switched from dates to gpe-cal19:38
* florian knows people developing these ;)19:38
ajturnerwell, I know I actually rarely use the things I develop - it's weird like that19:38
florianI guess its time for new packages soon :-)19:38
ajturnerTak - why did you switch?19:38
koenflorian: no it's time for a release19:38
ajturnerwhat do you think about them both?19:38
floriankoen: that's what i meant :-)19:39
floriankoen: neal started to work on this...19:39
Takajturner: I switched because dates wouldn't let me easily import an ics file19:39
ajturnerTak, can you link to an external ICS?19:39
ajturnerI think last time I checked, it was just import19:40
Takwhereas, with gpe-calendar, I can import different ones, merge them into existing calendars, or keep them separate19:40
Taktbh, I haven't tried linking to an external ics19:40
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ajturneryeah, see - need to at least bring in external, and syncing would be sweet19:41
tigertyea. we desperately need online store for all our data.19:42
maddleroh... heya florian! :D19:42
ajturnertigert - online storage?19:42
tigertit makes no sense to scatter your life on different bits of flash memory19:42
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florianhi maddler19:42
ajturnertigert - agreed 100%19:43
tigertit should be on a personal datastore.19:43
ajturnergpe uses sqlite I believe?19:43
florianyes19:43
tigertlike google docs19:43
ajturnerthey at least that could/should be sync-able19:43
tigertso you can really share and collaborate19:43
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ajturneror use a service with a simple API19:43
ajturnerbackpack/gcal/30boxes19:44
[mbm]tigert: isn't that providing a central point of failure?19:44
ajturnermbm - no19:44
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ajturnerin fact the opposite19:44
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ajturnerby syncing - you can restore if lost19:45
ajturnerplus you have backups19:45
ajturnerbut right now you probably have them scattered and not backed up19:45
[mbm]ah thought the intention was actually running it live from the central datastore, not syncing it19:45
ajturnermbm - well, you would probably want to sync, so you can use offline19:45
[mbm]right19:46
robtaylortigert: whatabout running sync4j on a personal server?19:46
partstoring all your personal data on some corporate system seems like a really bad idea to me19:46
ajturnerrobtayler - have you setup sync4j before?19:46
ajturnerpart - "corporate system"?19:46
partgoogle19:46
ajturnerand why is that necessarily a bad idea?19:47
ajturnerthere is the q of privacy19:47
ajturnerbut I use gcal/gmail/google search, they know everything about me19:47
ajturnerbut I'm also fairly sure it's safe19:47
tigertpart. you could of course run your own server19:47
robtaylorajturner: no, never lookedat it19:47
tigerti am talking about the principle19:47
ajturnerrobtayler - great in theory, PITA in practice19:47
maddlerOff Topic: I'd need something to convert DOCs to HTML19:48
maddlerany clue?19:48
robtaylorajturner: hmm, interesting19:48
tigertsee bergie.iki.fi19:48
ajturnerbut yeah, sync4j and teh entire sync standard is a hopeful thing19:48
parttigert: yes, I agree on the principle, it's just that I don't see google as the storage for all my personal data19:48
ajturnerand again - been around for years19:48
tigertand his blog about flickr19:48
koenmaddler: abiword 2.5?19:48
maddlerkoen: from commandline...19:48
koenmaddler: that has a batch convert option on the commandline19:48
robtaylorajturner: what were the problems you'vefound?19:48
[mbm]maddler: openoffice? wordview?19:48
maddlerhmmmmmmm....19:49
ajturnerjust couldn't get it running and sync19:49
maddlerkoen: lemme see...19:49
ajturnerthis was 2 years ago - which my mobile phone and clients19:49
tigertpart, most people trust their isp or google quite lot. still, use open api's so you can use your own store19:49
robtaylorajturner: mm. i might give it a try then, hopefully some progress will have been made =)19:49
koenmaddler: http://uwog.net/news/?p=6219:49
ajturnerrobtaylor - great project though for someone to take off with - get a good howto running all this sync stuff together :)19:49
[mbm]I have more trust in a tor exit node than I have in my isp19:49
ajturnerrobtaylor - http://www.funambol.com/opensource/19:49
robtaylorajturner: yeah, already doenloading ;)19:50
maddlerkoen: great!!!19:50
ajturnerIMO - when PIM is easy & integrated, then N800 can think about being mainstream :)19:50
[mbm]ajturner: I think they need better power management or a bigger battery first19:51
ajturnermbm - nope19:51
* florian doesn't think that19:52
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robtaylor[mbm]: well consider how much better the N800 is than the 770, and thats with more powerful hardware19:53
maddlerkoen: works! not perfect, but is something anyhow... :)\19:54
[mbm]robtaylor: didn't say it wasn't; just saying that it still has a long way to go19:54
robtaylor[mbm]: once oppoints stablilise in linux, it should get better too :)19:54
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[mbm]it's the old argument of "this is the year for linux deskops" that we've been hearing for the last 10 years19:55
ajturnermbm - true19:55
robtaylor[mbm]: well, the percentage points go up every year19:55
robtaylorso in some sense, its true19:55
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ajturnerI never think "linux mainstream desktop" will really happen :)19:55
koen10x10!19:55
[mbm]robtaylor: sure things improve, but the engineers are so blindsighted that they forget it still isn't to the point og the genral consumer19:56
robtaylorkoen: yeah, i think that was a bit wishful thinking19:56
ajturnerbut still - a comment I frequently hear about the N800/770 and Pepperpad, et al - is that they say "$400 for just getting the web?"19:56
robtaylor[mbm]: yeah, but the way to the consumer os through business19:56
[mbm]ajturner: yeah, it's hard to explain what they are19:56
robtaylor[mbm]: and i've heard of lot of windows shops that are getting jittery cos their clients are moving over to linux19:57
ajturnerwell, I think people would like to see they can sync their PIM data19:57
[mbm]"what's that?" "it's an internet tablet" "oh, so you websurf on it? *yawn*" ..19:57
bipolarAre there any PC images (like for qemu or vmware) of Maemo? I'd like to play with the software while I wait for my n800 to arive :)19:57
koenajturner: largely because people don't realise the add-on software is free (as in beer)19:57
ajturnerkoen - well, not that, it's not easy to do19:57
Tak[mbm]: and then you go back to watching lotr ...19:58
[mbm]works slightly better if you tell them it's a portable linux computer19:58
ajturnerthe fact that you have to config repositories just put it out for most users19:58
Jaffabipolar: there's a VMware development image, and keesj has put together a qemu one for baselining mud development19:58
robtaylorajturner: i think thats a false argument19:58
Takajturner: you don't have to with .install ...19:58
koenajturner: that's just a fault from nokia, they could have easily added the extras repo by default19:58
robtaylorajturner: most users are used to going to bebsites, downloading exexs and rebooting their machines for new software19:58
[mbm]koen: true, but then it becomes a qa problem19:58
ajturnerrobtaylor - speaking about what I see from people I show - they're geeks, but that isn't apparent/appealing to them19:59
ajturnerkoen - agreed that it could be an easy sol'n19:59
bipolarJaffa: cool. Do you have a link handy? I searched the wiki in vain.19:59
ajturnerapp mgr could pull list of repos and show them or automatically add them when they're approved19:59
Jaffabipolar: google "maemo vmware"19:59
robtaylorajturner: a nice helper filetype that adds a repo in to the app installer would be a nice touch though19:59
roopeI don't really know about N800 for PIM. Would you actually do it with that device?19:59
roopeI mean seriously.20:00
ajturnermy point is N800 - as h/w - is great, it just needs software/usability addressing20:00
Jaffabipolar: sorry, don't have it to hand and I'm currently ill with a viral infection so not feeling 100% :-/20:00
robtaylorwith suitable warnings, of course20:00
Jaffarobtaylor: that already exists20:00
ajturnerroope - not "primary", but if I'm out and about with it, I feel silly that it doesn't have that20:00
roopePeople that do PIM already have their devices and system to do PIM with. I do it with my phone and pc outlook.20:00
Takrobtaylor: yeah!  they could call it .install!20:00
ajturnerI *have* to take my phone/laptop too20:00
[mbm]there's still the issue of keyboard input20:00
[mbm]you basically need a bluetooth keyboard to do much typing20:00
bipolarJaffa: no prob... btw, I first reaction to "viral infection" was to ask why you're running windows... I had to think about it a few sec... :P20:00
roopeAnd PIM still is a quite marginal use case.20:01
roopeWe've had PDA's for over 10 years and they really went nowhere.20:01
bipolarJaffa: hope you feel better soon :)20:01
roopeAnd they were all about PIM. pim this, pim that.20:01
Jaffaroope: I disagree, I hate my phone for PIM stuff, and since stopping using my Psion I've been struggling without a good PIM. People keep saying "Phones do PIM". No, phone do PIM *badly*. Why would the limitations that make phones crap for web browsing, not apply to them doing PIM functionality?20:01
[mbm]handwiring recongnition sucks, mini keyboard is only good for hunt and peck with the stylus and the onscreen keyboard obscures whatever you're typing into20:01
roopeN800 would suck at pim anyway, because there's no keyboard.20:02
ajturnerroope - disagreed, for one, info retrieval would be gerat20:02
JaffaThumb keyboard's pretty good. Hell, even basic synchronisation with some upstream server would do. Most of the data entry can be on a PC but for scheduling dentist appointments etc. it'd be useful to enter the one small thing.20:02
ajturner2) I don't mind the onscreen kbd and 3) I have a bt one-handed kbd20:02
roopeWhat are you using for PIM right now?20:02
ajturnergcal/ical/addressbook/nokia 660020:03
ajturnerall syncd20:03
[mbm]sure, if you already had your calendar and appointments setup online the tablet is a decent way to view em20:03
ajturnerso, for PIM - N800 should sync to my mac or gcal20:03
roopePIM is nice, but it's nowhere near a meanstream use case like web browsing.20:03
roope"Everyone" browses the web, but like... 10% of people really do pim.20:03
[mbm]but try writing an email reply that's more than a sentance using the tablet20:03
tigerti see the n800-like devices more as portable windows to your online presence or self20:03
roopeand out of those, most wouldn't start doing PIM with the tablet anyway.20:04
Jaffa[mbm]/tigert: that's fine, but you can't always get a connection - hence the need for offline viewers :)20:04
[mbm]the n800 is a desktop widget20:04
[mbm]just happens to be portable20:04
roopePlus doing people is really ... it requires a lot of work. The application work, synchonization etc. is really a lot of work.20:04
Jaffaroope: and how many people do RSS feeds in the general populace?20:04
roopeNokia already has communicator as the pim device.20:04
Jaffaroope: wouldn't disagree with that.20:04
ajturnerroope - I agree, it is difficult for devs20:04
ajturnerbut needs to be easy for users20:05
JaffaBut that shouldn't mean it should be discounted.20:05
roopeThey just published the new E90 for it.20:05
tigerti cannot care less for its offline storage.20:05
roopeWell, yes and no. Nokia as a company... If e90 already does pim, perhaps the tablet should try to do stuff that the Symbian devices are not doing so well.20:05
roopeInstead of spending limited resources duplicating the same features.20:05
tigertinternet will be ubiquituous soon anyway for us20:05
tigertlike hapened to phones20:06
Jaffatigert: maybe true in Finland, but that's not true on trains - for example - in the UK. A usecase for business users in the UK too.20:06
roopeBad PIM would suck just as bad as no PIM, plus it would suck in a way that then we're not doing something else.20:06
Jaffae.g. you have no mobile phone coverage => no Internet access at all.20:06
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ajturnerroope - there is already mediocre/bad pim20:07
ajturnerI was hoping someone looked at/uses better pim20:07
roopeI guess I'm also saying that if the E series has like ... n people and m money doing PIM, maemo developers really cannot compete with that.20:08
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roopeSo it's perhaps better to try to focus on new areas.20:09
roopeLike web 2.0 (whatever you mean by it) etc.20:09
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roopeOf course, through things like using google calendar etc. other online things, you can eventually start to achieve the same use cases as through more traditional offline PIM.20:11
roopeWhen web services develop sufficiently, then "us" do not need to develop these serviecs, we just have a web client that accesses these. developed by google etc.20:12
ajturnerwell, N800 can be Web3.020:12
roopeAnd I'm quite sure that will happen pretty quickly.20:12
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ajturnerwhere that implies being able to deploy an "app" to the web or to a machine20:12
roopeYeah.20:12
ajturnerso I can run, say, GCal locally on my device20:12
roopeSo instead of "doing pim" we need to be ready with a deviec that can access pim web services. in the best manner possible.20:13
roopesince pim is so heavily dependant on synchronization anyway, so a web service can handle that much better.20:13
tigertjaffa, is cellphone coverage good there?20:14
tigertjaffa, i am not saying we are there now. but in 5 years it can be very different20:15
roopeI kind of see that the age of heavy local apps is dying for many functions. sevices develop at an increasingly fast speed.20:15
roopedoing a local heavy pim app for 2 years will make it obsolete when it is finally released. compared to a constantly developing web service.20:15
tigertalso, like roope said, a LOT of new stuff is happening on the web browser space20:15
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tigertit makes sense to have awesome portable web tablet20:16
roopeOf course we're not there yet, but. :)20:16
tigertthat gives you all those things on the go20:16
tigertinstead of something like Evolution mail, which was awesome 4 years ago, now i enjoy gmail more20:17
roopeYeah. When they come up with a new feature for gmail, it's in my hands the next day.20:17
roopeWith no upgrades or hassles.20:17
tigertlets leverage the huge innovation and effort that is on the web, its silly to try to duplicate it20:17
tigertweb makes it very fast to do collaborative services etc. that is why we should interface with them20:18
tigertsame applies to the desktop linux20:19
ajturnerhrm, wonder if can run apache/python server on the N80020:19
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tigertthe operating system is becoming obsolete as more things communicate though rss and other api's20:19
ajturneror a rails app :) though that may be a little heavy20:20
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tigertajturner, bergie is putting midgard on it :)20:20
ajturnertigert - well, RSS/Api's are just different IPC mechanisms20:20
ajturnerhe is?20:20
ajturnerwell, that's C++, able to run faster20:20
ajturnerI have yet to instll ruby on my n80020:20
tigertyea, he was thinkng of it :)20:20
tigertthat would be one way of offline mode btw20:20
tigertsince it can replicate over the net to another site20:21
ajturnerright20:21
ajturnerthat's the 3.0 part20:21
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tigertbut this is a big shift of mindset20:22
tigertout of "sync my calendar to my device" to "give me my internet data on the commuter train"20:22
tigertsince when the data is on the net, it an be shared and colaboration can happen between mobile and desktop users20:23
ajturnerwonder how bergie is handling syncing the local db to the online one20:23
tigertin realtime. sure it takes sme time to go there, but on some cases it works already20:23
tigertirc + screen over ssh is one example actually20:24
tigertwhile we have been discussing this,20:24
ajturnerah, so he doesn't envision an offline version?20:24
tigerti have travelled from the nokia office to home via train, now i am about to wipe and take the dogs out :)20:25
tigertand our collaboration was never interrupted20:25
tigert;)20:25
ajturnerwell, internet access isn't ubiquitous20:25
ajturnerand it's also slow-to establish, when compared to loading local data20:25
roopeit will be nearly, and quite soon.20:26
tigertit isnt. but it can very well become so20:26
ajturnerso when I open my N800 and say, want to check my calendar, to pull it off the web may take 0.5-2 minutes20:26
tigertwe laughed at cellphones too...20:26
roopeIt's good to already prepare for it, assume it is.20:26
roopeBecause there is no real technical reason why it one day wouldn't be.20:26
ajturnerwell, europe has the benefit of being dense20:26
ajturnerthe US is not as dense, so ubiquity is more difficult20:27
roopeWith things like wimax etc.20:27
ajturnernot saying it won't - just further out20:27
roope5 years, i would say.20:27
ajturnerroope - right, but 5 yrs is a long time to wait to check my calendar ;)20:27
roopeWell, developing a good pim would take 5 years. :)20:27
garrettthere's nothing interesting happening for 5 years anyway. (:20:28
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ajturnerroope - so just don't do anything for now ;)20:28
ajturneras garrett purports20:28
StregPIM is too unsexy, nobody cares. For example, what are the real alternatives to m$ outlook in windows enviroment?20:29
roopeI think now is the time to develop standards and concepts and features that will then rule once this is a reality.20:29
mgedminroope: isn't that what Chandler did a few years ago?20:29
mgedmindeveloped standards/concepts/features/specs/whatever?20:30
ajturneryeah, there *are* standards out there20:30
ajturnersyncml is well supported20:30
roopeThere are yes, for certain things.20:30
roopeBut there's more to do. Like location services.20:30
ajturnerroope - more than what? than just PIM?20:31
ajturnersure, not saying PIM is the only thing to do - LBS is actually my cup o' tea20:31
ajturnerergo my asking for someone that's a PIM-dev/user fan20:31
TakStreg: depends what you want20:31
roopeAs I said, I think we should focus on support and UI and standards for online web services. One such web service can provide PIM functions to the device user.20:32
Takthe *only* thing thunderbird+lightning doesn't do that outlook does is the shared-calendar-group-masturbation thing that middle managers like to indulge in for some reason20:32
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Stregtak: can you share that calendar with any device?20:32
ajturnerTak - is lightning usable ?20:33
TakI'm using it for my intraoffice calendaring20:33
Stregtak: I mean import and export.20:33
ajturnerStreg Tak - yeah, that was my original q - sync to N80020:33
Takyou can export it, and you can publish via webdav20:34
Takprobably more, but that's what I see with one right-click20:34
StregWell the problem is, that you can "share" you lightning/sunbird calendar, but I haven't found a way to import entries automatically from other devices/services20:35
Takyou can import ics20:36
StregI think sunbird/lightning will evntually be a great application like tb and firefox, but my point really is, that it's a recent endeavour.20:37
Takand you can use one on the network (either published ics or caldav)20:37
StregIt's somehow interesting, that people are willing to work with old Commodores to create astounding visual effects even today just for the kick of it, but managing you daily life is just boring :)20:39
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noirhi20:43
Taklightning displaying a remotely stored google calendar event: http://flickr.com/photos/79742524@N00/388225225/20:43
Stregand there seems to be a syncml-plugin fom tb/lightning in sf http://sourceforge.net/projects/sync4jmozilla/20:44
Stregseems like we're getting somewhere20:44
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StregI've been using http://www.scheduleworld.com/ works with syncml (mobiles/outlook), google calendar etc.20:46
ajturnerinteresting Streg20:46
ajturnerI just starting using SpanningSync to get Gcal to my iCal20:46
ajturneri like the *style* of ScheduleWorld - very... original20:47
Stregajturner:well I don't use it for anythin else than a syncml server20:47
Stregoutlook and my mobile syncs there.20:48
ajturnernice20:48
MDKeveraldo: pong20:48
ajturnerso yeah, just need GPE/Dates to do syncml! :)20:48
everaldoMDK, prv20:49
Stregajturner: true, but I think we have to code it ourselves, it's too tedious for normal people :)20:50
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tigertajturner, remember how palms had the journal feature for diaries?20:51
tigertnowadays nobody wants that20:51
tigerteveryone understands the idea of blogs20:51
bipolarOn the syncing front, there is also a connector for Funambol (open source syncml server) for Groupdav servers (Opengroupware, Citadel). So syncml support for mobile PIM apps would open up a whole lot of options.20:51
tigerti think it explains some of this idea i am trying to share :)20:52
ocnarfidWhot mama.20:53
ocnarfidWpaired mac keyboard to N800 is sexy.20:53
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ajturnertigert - maemoblog is diaries by another name20:55
ajturnerthe functionality is still desired :)20:55
ajturneryou have a local client that publishes/syncs data online20:56
ajturnerthe client is still local20:56
tzzocnarfidW: you and nomis should talk about reversed IRC handles...  I use the Apple BT keyboard too, it's very comfortable but not portable at all.20:56
[mbm]diary sounds so teenage girlish20:57
ocnarfidWYea.  I may spring for one of those portable ones, first I want to get the hang of using the screen keyboard thou.20:57
tzzmbm: so you like "captain's log" better? :)20:57
VReI would like to have one good cal on the IT, and then I could maybe sync it with my phone so if the IT looses battery I can still check my phone..20:58
[mbm]tzz: um yeah, let me put on my startrek pjs :P20:58
tigertaj, yes. local clients give you a better ui than todays web tech20:58
tigertbut i think we should focus on two things20:59
VReAnd webstuff .. it's just too unreliable - I can't be sure I can always get to my calendar if it's just online20:59
tigert1) making web as good as possible20:59
tigert2) aking the biggest ideas for native apps (blogging, podcast viewing etc)20:59
* [mbm] goes to see what amazon has for portable bluetooth keyboards21:00
StregI would like to ge my N800 back from the service, 2 weeks now - they are "replacing" it. Oh, those corporate structures21:00
tigerttaking even21:00
garrettoffline web stuff is nice21:00
tigertthis way we might be able to enable a lot of cool things21:00
garretttigert: video publishing right from the N800 would be cool21:00
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[mbm]garrett: squid + 4G SD card for cache?21:00
tigertfor example21:00
garrettfor quick and simple videoblogs21:00
garrett[mbm]: heh21:00
tigertphotos we can do already21:01
garrett[mbm]: I was thinking offline support for webapps21:01
garretttigert: oh? news to me21:01
garretttigert: right now, only video conferencing works for us non-Nokia people (;21:01
tigerti mean, upload pics to flickr21:01
tigertfrom the tablet21:01
garrettyeah, that is good21:01
garrettjust need to get a camera that can work with this device to make that work21:01
jaebirdanyone have connection problems with GPRS and bluetooth?21:02
sxpertI never got that to work21:02
jaebirdI still cannot connect to my ROKR E2 over BT DUN21:02
VRea21:03
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suihkulokkigarrett: do you have a youtube account? try uploading a video using the flash-based quick video capture.21:04
tigerthmm. indeed, culd that work?21:05
tigertcould even21:05
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garretthmm, interesting idea21:07
garrettit would probably pop up vid conf when I'd try21:07
suihkulokkitigert: it should. not that I have I tried nor do I have the device around to try :)21:08
tigerthmm. will need to test!21:08
ajturnerwere there rumors of a skype client for the N800?21:10
ocnarfidWyes by mid-year.21:10
VReI wonder if it'll do video with the other skype clients21:11
ajturnerVRe- that's my q, b/c right now can only vid chat w/ other N800 users, right?21:11
[mbm]ajturner: there's a pc app on tableteer21:12
ajturner[mbm] - windows?21:12
[mbm]ajturner: probably21:13
ajturnerurl?21:13
StregI think you'll have to use the invitation software within N80021:13
Streg"video call invitaion beta" or something21:13
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partgarrett: offline support and webapps don't really mix21:22
garrettit can21:22
ajturnerpart - disagree, look at the plethora of nice Basecamp clients21:23
ajturneror del.icio.us clients21:24
garretthttp://www.drury.net.nz/2007/02/03/firefox3-web-apps-game-changer/21:24
garrettor Firefox 3 (:21:24
[mbm]ajturner: http://videovoip.tableteer.nokia.com/21:24
ajturnergarrett - well, I haven't run FF3 ye ;)21:24
tigertwe just need a bit of time for the next round of web technologies21:24
ajturnersorry garrett, I mean (;21:24
partajturner: what's basecamp?21:24
tigerta year or two can do a lot21:24
garretthttp://www.sitepen.com/blog/2007/01/02/the-dojo-offline-toolkit/21:24
ajturnertigert - no! the time is now! :)21:24
garrettdojo offline toolkit as well, fwiw21:24
tigert;)21:24
ajturnerpart - an online notes/calendar/todo app21:25
partajturner: the clients sync with some html forms I suppose21:25
ajturnerpart, ever heard of REST/SOAP/XML-RPC?21:25
ajturnertigert - people are already doing it, offline clients, sync/access online web services with an easy to use protocol. Things like FF3 are nice b/c they're giving a standard, syncable {on,off}-line data store21:27
partajturner: I assumed that basecamp wouldn't support anything like that21:27
garrettdojo offline toolkit is a web proxy that handles things21:27
ajturnerpart - ?21:27
garrettand it's open source too21:27
ajturnerwhy?21:27
tigertaj, yeah21:27
ajturnerpart - basecamp has helped define web2.021:27
parteh, that's either really funny or really sad21:28
partnot sure21:28
ajturnerpart - I've lost you21:28
partweb2.0 can do that21:28
partand more!21:28
tigerthey, silly marketroids can ruin the name21:29
konfooweb 2.5!21:29
tigertbut there is a lot happening21:29
partweb200021:29
* konfoo makes wanking motion21:29
konfooi suggest we discuss over a WEBINAR21:29
garrettHEH21:30
tigertnah, lets not get silly21:30
garrettnice21:30
tigertthe fact is, a SCARY number of my community contacts have a gmail address these days21:30
tigertsay what you want about "web2.0"21:31
ajturnerdid you see the stats on openmoko - of the 800+ members on the list, like 600+ were gmail21:31
konfooi detest the term, not the technology21:31
tigertbut the web service space and embedded linux is where most interesting things see to happen21:31
konfooabout as much as i detest the use of 'podcast'21:31
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ajturnerkonfoo - understood, but naming a concept makes it easier to discuss21:32
tigertthe term is just silly. so suits have something to write on their powerpoints21:32
tigertand so expensive seminars can be held :)21:32
konfooyes but the problem i have is that it implies technology has milestones, which it does not. and then the suits/cluebies get carried away21:33
robtaylorok, this feels like a stupid question: how do i select textin the webbrowser?21:33
Taktap+drag works for me21:33
zuhrobtaylor: By luck21:33
konfootigert: exactly lol21:33
konfoosigh21:33
zuhrobtaylor: It's tap-tap-drag21:33
robtaylorzuh: ahh, thanks :)21:34
tigertwhat is cool about ubuntu for example, is it gives a free platform to these things on any desktop or laptop computer21:34
tigertbut the "desktop" is just a small part of all this21:34
robtaylorzuh: i see what you mean 'by luck'...21:34
robtaylorthis is unusable21:34
zuhYes :/21:34
tigertand seems increasingly smaller whe you look at mainstream21:34
tigertflickr, gmail and calendar etc21:35
konfootigert: yes the desktop is only 'big' because microsoft requires it to stay in business21:35
tzzrobtaylor: it's the price of drag-to-pan viewports in the web browser, given there is effectively just one mouse button21:35
tigertrobtaylor, tripletap-drag =)21:35
robtayloryep, trying to select some text in the middle of a line is hellish21:36
tigertkonfoo, yes. and the community is making it increasingly irrelevant21:36
robtaylori'd have prefered 'hold down [] and drag' or somesuch21:36
* mgedmin wants multitouch21:36
tigertrob, the pan scroll rocks, but selecting suffers :(21:36
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tzzspeaking of scroll, when viewing a large image in the image viewer, scrolling is by a few pixels only instead of by half a screen width/height.  Does anyone else find that annoying?21:37
konfootigert: nice job on the plankton theme btw. now i can actually look at the UI without flinching :)21:37
suihkulokki*fortunatly* MS has patented this: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=3756821:37
zuhtzz: It could be sensible by detecting the direction of the drag and selecting or panning accordingly. I've implemented that in Scw and it worked pretty well (but I couldn't test it thoroughly though).21:37
garrettyeah, the new plankton is really nice21:38
tigerti think gnome needs to start thinking about web things too21:38
garretttigert: I totally agree21:38
robtaylortigert: next device, get them to put in a button that can be used for switching pointer modes =)21:38
konfoosuihkulokki: there's prior art on that21:38
tigerthow to make hings work with that domain21:38
tigertrob :)21:38
Takor a way to differentiate both ends of the stylus, like wacom tablets do21:38
tzzzuh: I think it's a hard problem actually, any time you want to guess what the user really wants21:38
tzzzuh: maybe it will work for a few cases, but generally introducing ambiguity in UI operations is a bad thing21:39
tigertyea. it is a hard thing. the stylus scroll is very very good on the browsing though21:39
garretttigert: tapping on the left-side items should pop-up a menu21:40
garretttigert: it doesn't currently -- lifting up from a tab does21:40
konfootigert: they do. they need a webapp framework. more webapps, less apt-get and compile from source.21:40
Takimo it would be safe to switch it to a finger-only scroll21:40
garrettI want to be able to tap, drag to an item, let go, and have it launch21:40
tzztigert: it would be so simple and cheap to have a scroll wheel on the side, just map it to mouse buttons 4 and 5 as usual21:40
tigertyeah, that too21:41
tzztigert: Sony may have patents on that though, gah21:41
Takhw scroll wheel would be good too21:41
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tzzSony seemed to have a scroll wheel on everything they produced for a while, a span of 4 years or so21:42
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tigertheh. the tablet is insane21:42
zuhtzz: It works for most of the cases (well at least I think so ;), since selecting text is pretty distinctive operation wrt the direction you drag your mouse...21:42
suihkulokkiScrollwheel would really rock21:42
tigerti have been chatting all night with this 77021:42
tigerti love this stuff21:42
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tigertwith all the issues and faults, WE RULE21:43
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zuhtzz: but your doubts are valid as I have no test data to prove it :/21:43
Takyeah - the only reason I ever have to charge my 770 is reboots21:43
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tigertI had two palms, never really used them more than a bit21:43
Takplaying nes games for hours - still 4 bars21:43
Tak1 reboot - down to 2 bars21:43
ajturnertak - yeah, I've notice the battery bar isn't 'linear' like that21:44
tigertyea, reboot takes lots of juice21:44
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konfooi need to try those emus.. which ones are most playable btw?21:44
ajturnerwell, I think the batt doesn't get updated21:44
ajturnersame on my N660021:44
tigerton the n800 it seems more weird21:44
Takit's not linearity, it's that the reboot eats a TON of power21:44
ajturnerit's not the reboot power drain21:44
tigertfour bars, then zero21:44
ajturneryeah, I'm dubious on that21:44
Takkonfoo: fceu is probably the most playable, because I've spent the most time on it21:44
tigertyet it goes on longer21:44
TakI've got a ton of stuff ready to go into the next release21:45
konfoocool ill give it a whirl :)21:45
Takmore buttons, better (perfect at 2 frameskip) sound on n800, osso-based power management, volume control with zoom buttons, ...21:46
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ajturnerTak - is visualboyadvance bundled into the fceu install? VBA didn't show up in my app mgr, but when I installed the deb - it said it was alrady installed21:46
Takvba's a separate deb21:46
Takit's in the same repo as fceu though21:46
ajturnerwell, but why would the app mgr say VBA is already installed?21:47
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Takso if you click both install files, it'll tell you the repo for the second one is already there21:47
ajturnerdoesn't show up in the available apps to install21:47
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Takbut it is installed?  or not?21:47
ajturnerdoesn't shwo up in the Files21:48
ajturnernor does FCEU21:48
TakFiles?21:48
ajturner'something strange is afoot'21:48
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ajturnerApp menu21:48
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Takinstall Xmaeme21:48
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ajturnerah - VBA shows up in installed apps - so I need XMaeme to run them all?21:49
Takif you don't want to run them from xterm ;-)21:49
ajturnerheh21:49
ajturneryeah, not the easiest method to fire up apps21:49
ajturnerI imagine it's not easy to transfer a ROM from a cart? need a ROM Reader?21:50
Takit's easier to find roms online (for your legally purchased titles, of course)21:50
ajturneryeah, that's what I figured - annoying - I have the cart right here :) to now go and have to find/grab a torrent or something21:51
Takthere's also a gpl-free rom in the EFP package21:51
[mbm]vba runs pretty slow21:53
[mbm]didn't seem very playable21:53
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Takit's not very playable21:53
TakI was hoping that would be improved with n80021:54
* tzz sent off the scroll wheel suggestion to maemo-users21:54
zuhtzz: Just in case you (or someone else) are curios to test it, http://scwwidgets.googlepages.com/scwtest is a small test app that tests the ScwView. One can add rows and try the select/pan thing with it... (sorry no deb for that, just a binary ;)21:55
tzzzuh: sorry, what does it do?21:56
tzzok I see the website, a chat widget21:56
zuh(it's the one in the chat UI on the device ;)21:57
tzzcool, I can try it out21:57
tzznot right now, I have a meeting in 2 minutes :)  I'll try tonight.21:58
zuhThe selection has one other quirk, it doesn't do multi-row selections as usual, but instead if you select over the row border, it selects full rows (of data, not visible rows mind you)...21:59
tzzthanks zuh, I'll send you feedback directly21:59
zuhtzz: cool :)21:59
zuhI'd appreciate that, I really want to know it actually is worth keeping around...22:00
jaebirdany pppd experts around?22:03
* mgedmin is a pppd amateur22:06
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jaebirdI'm having bigtime trouble getting GPRS with my ROKR E222:07
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koenheh22:08
tigertheh22:08
koenmotorola phone don't support gprs over bluetooth22:08
jaebirdkoen: don22:08
jaebirddon't start this again :)22:08
koenit looks like they do, but it doesn't work22:08
jaebirdit does22:08
jaebirdIt works just fine with my laptop...it is my N800 that isn't liking it22:09
koenit doesn't work with osx, maemo and windows mobile22:09
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jaebirdmy V540 also works fine with both N800 and my laptop22:09
jaebirddoes pastebin suk?22:10
zuhtzz: there is now scwtest-inverted too, in which the panning is more like the extension of the scrollbar (I personally prefer that, but usually it's the other way round). If you could give an opinion on that too, I'd like to hear it...22:10
jaebirdrcvd [IPCP ConfReq id=0x1]22:11
jaebirdsent [IPCP ConfNak id=0x1 <addr 0.0.0.0>]22:11
jaebirdthen hangup!22:11
mgedminjaebird: I've seen this somewhere...22:13
jaebirdmgedmin http://pastebin.ca/35240222:14
mgedminmaybe not exactly this, but something similar22:15
mgedminyour pppd asks the ppp server implemented in your phone's firmware for Van Jacobson compression or something22:16
mgedminthen retries a few times22:16
* Jaffa wonders, out of interest, if tigert/roope could confirm how many Nokia managers outside of the Maemo team have a PDA-like device with them which they insist is necessary for checking their email and calendar? Until a Maemo device can do either of those satisfactorily, it won't sell to PHBs except as a toy.22:16
mgedminbut looks like the phone gets border and gives up22:16
mgedminthere's a pppd option that disables van jacobson22:17
mgedminjaebird: if you have a pppd options file, try adding a line with '-vj' in there22:17
jaebirdok22:17
roopesorry, PHB?22:18
partpointy haired boss22:18
roopeOh. :)22:18
TakI'm glad the ITs aren't targeted toward PHBs22:18
Takthat would make them 100% useless for me22:18
parttak: they'd have symbian22:18
roopeCompeting against the devices that PHB:s use would be very hard.22:18
jaebirdmgedmin: where is the compression request?22:19
jaebirdnevermind...22:19
partjaffa: from what I've seen PHBs tend to use a nokia communicator22:19
mgedminjaebird: sent [IPCP ConfReq id=0x1 <compress VJ 0f 01> <addr 0.0.0.0> <ms-dns1 0.0.0.0> <ms-dns3 0.0.0.0>]22:19
suihkulokkijaffa, afaik most use Nokia communicators/eseries phones for calendaring22:19
mgedminmaybe also add -pc to disable protocol compression22:19
roopeYeah. I don't see the point in trying to compete against those.22:19
mgedminmaybe not22:19
roopeThink even of Nokia as one company. :)22:20
roopeWhy would department A start to duplicate what department B already does.22:20
ajturnerwell, imagine if everyone walked into a room, the presenter "beamed" (BT/Wifi) the presentation and associated docs to all attendees (mgrs et al) who then had the slides/notes/refs/hyperlinks22:20
roopeThey're doing it, they're using Symbian, and that's that.22:20
mgedminjaebird: another couple of options that helped me with various gprs phones/pc cards were22:20
mgedminlcp-echo-failure 022:20
mgedminand22:20
mgedminlcp-echo-interval 022:20
Jaffapart/suihkulokki: interesting. Now how d'you think the argument will go when it's suggested they carry around a small phone (for network access) + an Internet Tablet + a PDA-style device, or a smartphone/communicator + Internet tablet.22:20
mgedminwithout these I used to get random disconnects after a minute or so22:21
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Jaffaroope: of course not, howver 5 years is a long time to sustain a business whilst waiting for the technology to catch up to your use cases. You really saying that the Maemo "experiment" is so strategic in Nokia that a couple of years of bad sales won't shut the project down?22:21
jaebirdmgedmin: fyi... http://pastebin.ca/352416 this one is with my V540 which works!22:21
jaebirdmgedmin: swapping sim cards to try some of your ideas22:22
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mgedminjaebird: that's interesting22:22
mgedminjaebird: I suggest you create a bug in the maemo bugzilla and post both logs22:23
mgedminI'm sure the pppd on the n800 could be fixed to deal with this situation22:23
jaebirdok...will do22:23
mgedminthe working log explicitly repeats the IP address in the last config request22:23
mgedminthe broken log doesn't22:23
mgedminlooks like pppd on the tablet assumes the phone will remember the configured IP address22:23
mgedminand the phone assumes the tablet forgot the IP and rejects it22:24
roopejaffa: Well, I hope that the same managers that came up with maemo did indeed have the long term strategic vision about it.22:24
suihkulokkiJaffa: now I'm purely guessing, but I think the idea is to do things with maemo that hard or impossible to do with symbian, not to compete with existing symbian products22:24
Jaffaroope: IME, managers find it easy to have strategic vision when the times are good, a lot less so when the times are bad.22:25
roopeAnd times are bad?22:25
suihkulokkiJaffa: ..and as far as I know, the traditional standalone pda market is pretty much nonexisting22:25
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Jaffasuihkulokki: indeed, my point is that people with all the money (i.e. decision-making managers) won't buy the use cases, so won't buy the product.22:25
Jaffaroope: I dunno what Nokia's fortunes are like at the moment. No-one knows what they'll be like tomorrow, next month, next year.22:26
roopeWell, Q4 results came just out a couple of weeks ago, I guess.22:26
Jaffasuihkulokki: agreed, it's all things like the MDAs etc. which do PDA-style functions, telephony *and* some approximation (albeit very badly) of an Internet Tablet.22:27
roopeBut if you know the Boston group model of portfolio, company needs to have products in multiple stages.22:27
roopeunknowns, cash cows, rising stars etc.22:27
* maddler just finished reading E90 review...22:27
roopeI'm pretty sure maemo is considered as an investment. Initially things like thees do not have to raise a profit.22:28
jaebirdmgedmin: looking at the V540 log it looks like the pppd rcvd the ip address from the phone22:29
jaebirdthe wlan ip22:30
jaebirdhow did the phone get it in the first place...via BT pairing22:30
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VRemaemo is nice trying around with linux, voip and wlan so that operators don't get angry22:30
mgedminnot the wlan ip, surely22:31
VReIn long scenario I see that the phone is dropped from the equation, you just have the IT and maybe some small modem (like gps things now)22:31
tigertwell, once internet is everywhere, you dont need the phone22:31
mgedminjaebird: the ppp server on a phone usually picks some IP from the reserved-local-range (10.x.x.x)22:32
tigertcurrently for me the phone is the thing that gives me internet22:32
tigertbut it probably will change22:32
VReThe modem for those cases you have some weird network which you can't connect with the IT, or maybe it's also small phone for _talking_22:32
VRethe main user inteface would be the IT22:32
jaebirdmgedmin: right, but the first received rcvd [IPCP ConfReq id=0x2 <addr 192.168.100.101>] which is the wlan ip address22:32
VRe.. and if that is the future, I would like to have also typical pda things like good calendar :)22:33
Takif you're assuming continuous network access at that point, you're using a web-based calendar22:33
VRe..maybe one can now actually program on top of the symbian with that open_c .. I doubt..22:34
mgedminjaebird: ah, that one -- isn't that the one that the GPRS server allocated to you?22:34
VReTak: Such thing doesn't exist that continous network access22:34
* Jaffa just worries that infrastructure never becomes as ubiquitous as expected. See Acorn's problems with their Oracle NC & STB efforts, or Psion, or ... any number of companies which paid the price for saying "yeah, but in 5 years, $TECH will be ubiquitous and we'll have the market cornered with the perfect device".22:34
VResmall internet hickup, router going down and you can't see what you were supposed to do next22:34
Takyou're talking about having wifi + modem...22:35
jaebirdno that is the wlan's ip address the one being allocated is in the 10.x.x.x range a few lines up22:35
VReSame way as calendar I would like actually to have the map and compass with me in the forrest..22:36
roopejaffa: Yes, well that is always the risk. It's a gamble. Most gambles fail, some succeed.22:36
jaebirdmgedmin: when pppd gets this: rcvd [IPCP ConfAck id=0x3 <addr 10.92.68.199> <ms-dns1 66.209.10.201> <ms-dns3 66.102.163.231>]22:36
JaffaNow, of course, I'd love ubiquitous Internet worldwide; which didn't cost me a fortune when travelling away from my home country; didn't disappear when I went  into a railway cutting or tunnel (very prevalent on the busiest railway route in the UK for hysterical raisins); worked when I was on a plane; worked when on the Channel Tunnel; worked on a boat in the middle of the English Channel; ...22:37
jaebirdisn't it supposed to respond with something better than what it is doing?22:37
VRecentral computer -> personal computer -> network is the computer... -> personal computer again?22:37
roopeAnyway, I don't see where's the point if we don't take a risk.22:37
jaebirdmgedmin: like this: sent [IPCP ConfAck id=0x2 <addr 192.168.100.101>]22:38
roopeWhy do things that have already been done. I think taking risks and thinking bol... to boldly go etc. is much more interesting.22:38
mgedminjaebird: what is your question again?22:38
Jaffaroope: No-one's saying the 770 & N800 are worthless, or that the vision isn't intriguing. But meet *today's* use cases as well as tomorro'ws and you'll be *more* successful.22:38
jaebirdsorry...it is getting lost in the irc mush22:38
VRego boldly where nobody has gone before with something new.. not old22:38
roopeThat's really the only way IT can make a margin, by doing something that the others are not doing, instead of trying to play catchup.22:38
jaebirdi'll right up a bug and let you know the #...that way you can comment22:39
roopejaffa: I don't really agree with that. Try to do everything and you'll do nothing well.22:39
Jaffaroope: but the point is everyone else is also doing things you're not doing: and they're making more money (I'd bet $10 on, anyway ;-))22:39
roopeTry to do both today and tomorrow and both the guys that do only today and the guys that do only tomorrow both run ahead.22:39
roopeYes, sure, currently.22:39
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Jaffaroope: now, if I was cynical I'd ask exactly *what* the N800 does *well* (rather than 'just about adequately, but I see the potential so I'll stick with it') ;-)22:40
JaffaBut I'm ill, so I'm being facetious22:40
roopeI think it's really an illusion ... Like a hundred mp3 player makers see apple doing money with the ipod and then they think well we need to also do the same as the ipod.22:40
roopeNo, you need to do what apple would do next.22:40
VRewell, calendar and basic pda stuff isn't much catchup - if someone just would do usability testing for one of the calendar and push the devel a bit22:40
roope(unless you're in the commodities market)22:41
roopejaffa: that's a valid question.22:41
VRewell, apple has to do the calendar also22:41
roopeFor its size it has a pretty decent browser.22:41
Jaffaroope: people were doing much more than the iPhone than the iPhone does, years ago - Nokia included. So why's everyone jazzed about the iPhone: 1) consistency and thought in the UI; 2) it's the "Apple" name.22:41
VReyou have some basic blocks which should be there and working, then you have this visionary stuff in the pipeline coming into the use in say 3-5 years22:42
roopeWell, ok, Apple is bad example, since there's the apple hype in nearly everyhing apple.22:42
suihkulokkiiPoo22:42
suihkulokki*drrooool*22:42
Jaffaroope: I know what you mean, but software only gets a "decent" label from me if it's stable and reliable. Something which Opera hasn't been able to get to on Maemo in over 1.5 years (even if I understand the underlying technical reasons, it's still frustrating as a user)22:43
roopeYes, yes, I agree. :)22:43
VReJaffa: Amen22:43
JaffaAlthough 8.5 is a lot better (probably related to the more memory)22:43
VReIt's like most of the software is missing the last 15%, they work but are not there yet22:43
JaffaAnyway, cup of tea downstairs and a cuddle from Mrs Jaffa to make me feel better :-)22:43
partjaffa: it's not just the apple name, it's the apple religion22:44
VRebut I can understand - 20/80 rule, last 20% takes 80% of the time22:44
roopeBut it's like David and Goliath, and maemo needs to think quite carefully where to aim with the sling.22:44
roopeAnd trying to compete with the goliaths at their main businesses, I don't it would be at all a smart idea.22:45
VReI think nokia internal has to think the future mainly, the rest try to be in the moment22:45
roopeWhere the big companies make their money right now, that's also where the hold on to the markets most fiercely. Along the edges, the new markets, there are lot more untapped potential.22:46
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roopeDoing a phone or doing PIM would be complete folly. But that's just my opinion. :)22:48
tigertyeah22:48
tigertwas just about to say the same thing22:48
tigertif N800 was a PDA or phone22:48
tigertit would be right there in the battlefield22:48
VReit's there already22:49
tigertinstead it is a whole new thing - doing one part of the handheld connected device stuff (arguably) better than others22:49
tigertphones or pdas rarely have as good screen and browser22:49
VReby missing some features from the package doesn't mean it's not crossing the same field22:49
tigerteven with the issues22:49
tigertsure it overlaps too22:49
VRepim it overlaps a lot, phone thru voip22:50
VReif it would have good pda wouldn't hurt the sales - that would make the sales larger - would create larger ecosystem - and would make many other things easier22:52
suihkulokkiIMHO it should provide access to view and edit calendar/phonebook of your phone22:52
VReI heard that they were supposed to have some calendar on 770 somepoint but the calendar sucked so badly that it was scrapped22:53
roopeA larger ecosystem makes everyhing slower, on the other hand.22:54
jaebirdmgedmin: Bug 104822:54
roopeLook at S60 for instance.22:54
VReno symbian makes it slow22:54
VRe6kk in school and then you can code22:55
roopeSounds ... scary. :D22:56
partkk = month22:56
VReFor large ecosystem you can make niches, there is those whom you can make expensive progs, and then there is those who are not willing to pay so they will settle for less22:57
roopeS60 is already doing that.22:57
VReOnly commerial thing for IT seems to be the navigator thingy, where are the rest22:58
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VReroope: Well, where is the free stuff?22:58
roopeFor s60? There's plenty of free stuff.22:58
VRelike palm did?22:58
roopeSorry?22:59
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VRes60/symbian comes from commerial to freeware scrap, maemo is building from free to commerial23:00
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roopes60 webkit devcore something is free.23:00
roopeIn general I don't really think the free/commercial question is even so important or interesting. :)23:01
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roope(but then again I can be tried for heresy.)23:01
* Tak prepares the stake and the firewood23:01
VReA lots of free makes people always interested23:01
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roopeutilizing open source has both its pros and cons, I think it's a wise strategy not to think in absolutes. Harness the best sides of both into a product.23:03
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VReamount of commerial software tells something about the size of the market and view of companies for possible profits in the area, amount of free software for one tells how easy it's to create software (few do difficult for free)23:04
pbrookVRe: For some definition of "difficult".23:05
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VRepbrook: look dictionary23:06
pbrookVRe: Presence of large quantities of open source software doesn't neccly mean it's a an easy platform to develope for, and absence of open source software doesn't mean it's hard to develop for.23:07
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roopeSymbian is "more difficult", because there are a lot more stakeholders. Every change is smaller, every thing needs to facilitate a much larger number of pepole.23:07
roope"A small change" is a huge change, because it affects so many people suddenly. That makes it slow.23:08
VRepbrook: Not absolutely, but it goes to that direction - difficult could be also the cost of developing23:08
pbrookeg. if a system is completely locked down there will be little/no open source software. But once you buy the right licence it might by a really easy/nice platform to develop for.23:08
VResymbian is difficult because the basic programming language is something few know out of the companies, now atleast they have some wrappers around the symbian (than open_c thing)23:09
TakI might say that the necessity of purchasing a license is a factor of the difficulty23:09
pbrookAlso, it depends how close the system is to conventional a conventional posix system. If it's linux based then pretty much everything works without hacking. If it's somethig bizarre then existing software takes effort to port.23:10
pbrookHowever if you're writing $(random_app) from scratch using a suitable custom widget set that's irrelevant.23:10
pbrookTak: Purchansing a licence is a big barrier to open source software, but fairly irelevant for proprietary software.23:11
Takdepends on company size23:12
VRepropietary software just doesn't come on the device if there isn't big enough market23:12
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pbrookSometing like scratchbox is great if you're used to unix/debian-like systems. But give it to a group used to windows development with msvc++ and they'll be completely lost.23:13
Takpbrook: yeah, I see that the gp2x toolkit is very windows-centric23:13
TakI also see that there's a substantially lower portion of floss software for gp2x23:14
pbrookYeah. Symbian also tends to be the that extreme. They'll sell you a nice SDK for pretty much exerything, but trying to build regular unixy software is a real PITA.23:15
tigertpbrook: only the select few are worthy of linux development tools23:18
tigert;^)23:19
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koen" The OS also features an interesting and completely open source-licensed Hiker Application Framework (HAF)"23:21
koengreat, now we have 2 HAFs23:21
tigerthehe23:21
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VReIf I would make a small scenario with the devel tools for portable devices, maybe in few years there is maemo, symbian, ms with .net, apple and objectivec/cocoa/whatever and maybe even palm in some form23:21
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VRemaemo can inherist big softaware and developer ecosystem from linux, symbian tries to build bridges towards posix and gtk etc, ms is riding .net horse everywhere, apple is unknown and palm atleast was going on top of linux23:29
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roopeWhatever happened to Palm / Access btw.23:31
roopeThey pretty much vanished.23:31
jaebirdanybody figure out how to wire the radio output to gstreamer so we can record to flash?23:31
pbrookroope: They're still going.23:32
[mbm]roope: they're still around, not completely bankrupt23:32
sxpertroope, not exactly... palm apparently bought palmsource back or something23:32
roopeYeah. But been quite quiet lately.23:32
[mbm]guess they're just not doing anything newsworthy23:32
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roopethey discontinued the lifedrive just recently.23:33
roopeI tried the Palm Lifedrive. It was quite a mess. Some nice UI things, but many things were really broken.23:34
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idanhowdy23:35
idanI have a question, having trouble googling answers23:35
jaebirdhidan23:35
idanI flashed my 770 with gregale, and enabled r&d mode23:36
idanit works great! except....23:36
idanwhen I shut it down, it seems to turn off for a second23:36
idanafter which it boots right back up23:36
idan:(23:36
jaebirdhard to stop a good thing!23:36
idanI can get it to really shut down by issuing "sudo shutdown -h now" via xterm23:37
VeggenWhat does /proc/bootreason say?23:37
idanVeggen: aha, don't know, checking23:37
idanone sec, will have to boot, then shutdown, then boot again23:37
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idangaaah23:42
idannow I cannot make it happen23:42
idanwierd23:42
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idanwhen the case is on, is the power button supposed to function?23:49
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idan(I mean on where it is covering the screen)23:49
idansigh23:52
idanok, I'll check back when I have more info, thanks23:52
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