| nomis | bergie: nice. What database do you use? | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| bergie | www.plazes.com | 00:00 |
| disq | ah | 00:00 |
| disq | one could also do that with access point data maybe | 00:00 |
| disq | there was a symbian app like that. it recorded the cell tower stuff and you could then save places, it would toggle events | 00:01 |
| disq | enable call forwarding when i'm in the office, that kind of thing | 00:01 |
| bergie | disq: this uses WiFi access points | 00:01 |
| disq | great then :) | 00:02 |
| bergie | http://beta.plazes.com/help/screencasts.php | 00:03 |
| matt_c | bergie: awesome stuff! | 00:03 |
| bergie | next point is to figure out what to do with the position info | 00:03 |
| bergie | some ideas: | 00:03 |
| bergie | * Automatically setting system clock to correct timezone | 00:03 |
| bergie | * Opening Maemo Mapper in user's present location | 00:03 |
| bergie | * Opening Maemo Stars in user's present location | 00:03 |
| bergie | * Setting instant messaging status based on location preferences (the "I don't want my clients to call when I'm at home" scenario) | 00:03 |
| bergie | * Populating a "Wikipedia pages near you" feed to RSS reader and Maemo Mapper POI database | 00:03 |
| bergie | from our README file ;-) | 00:03 |
| matt_c | bergie: what info is the plazes API basing your location on? | 00:05 |
| bergie | you actually send a hash of the access point's MAC address to Plazes | 00:06 |
| disq | bergie: is it read/write? can i submit plazes from the tablet? or do i need the pc app? | 00:06 |
| bergie | and if they don't know about the AP you can enter where it is located | 00:06 |
| bergie | disq: we open the browser to edit form on Plazes.com if the plaze is a new one | 00:06 |
| bergie | no native editor yet ;-) | 00:06 |
| disq | ah, ok that's enough. at least on the n800 | 00:07 |
| disq | (the 770 is slow as hell after using the n800 for a week now) | 00:07 |
| bergie | yeah... the Plazes site didn't work correctly on 770, but seems to do it with N800 | 00:07 |
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| maddler | anyone who installed bootmenu on N800? | 00:23 |
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| MoRpHeUz | cesman: ping =) | 00:35 |
| MoRpHeUz | just could stream video+audio to n800 using vlc =) | 00:37 |
| MoRpHeUz | encapsulation: ogg, video: theora and audio: vorbis | 00:38 |
| MoRpHeUz | =) | 00:38 |
| cesman | cool! | 00:40 |
| disq | is there a upnp server where we could cut into the transcoding process? ie. i want it to call mencoder with specific params, etc | 00:42 |
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| MoRpHeUz | hhmm | 00:44 |
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| MoRpHeUz | I'm working on making "live" transcoding...but not with an upnp server... | 00:44 |
| disq | i want a bathroombreak-less viewing experience | 00:44 |
| disq | where, viewing a tv show / movie, i can pick up my n800 and go get busy, still watching where i left off | 00:45 |
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| MoRpHeUz | disq: well, I think our solution will solve your problem..=) | 00:47 |
| disq | everybody in this channel talks like "our" "us" etc. it's becoming hard to figure out who has multiple personalities and who is actually working in a team :P | 00:48 |
| disq | (ok, j/k, n/o) | 00:49 |
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| MoRpHeUz | disq: haha =) | 00:51 |
| MoRpHeUz | disq: just check http://gmyth.sf.net . The features that will solve your problem will be commited soon!.. | 00:52 |
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| disq | nice | 00:52 |
| cesman | multiple personalities, commited? | 00:53 |
| MoRpHeUz | cesman: haha =) | 00:53 |
| MoRpHeUz | hehe.. | 00:53 |
| MoRpHeUz | I must check if there really is a team or I'm just crazy ..hehehe =P | 00:53 |
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| etanoox | i say: hello chan | 01:06 |
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| Lacken | help | 01:12 |
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| hub | wow | 01:23 |
| hub | You have 21 other Scratchbox sessions running! | 01:23 |
| hub | how can that be possible? | 01:23 |
| tolgam | you just have to launch 22 scratchboxes and close one of them ;) | 01:24 |
| hub | I have only one | 01:25 |
| hub | but I have 22 users on my regular system | 01:25 |
| hub | is it confusing this? | 01:25 |
| shackan | did you sb_adduser each of them ? | 01:26 |
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| hub | no | 01:26 |
| hub | only me | 01:26 |
| hub | I mean who outside scratchbox show 22 | 01:27 |
| hub | who inside scratchbox shows nothing | 01:27 |
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| disq | my scratchbox shows nobody (checking with "w") but i'm logged in | 01:32 |
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| nomis | hub: maybe some stray processes from older sessions? | 01:35 |
| et4c | hello | 01:37 |
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| disq | bergie: where to put maemoplazer.png? /usr/share/icons/hicolor/?/hildon/ | 01:50 |
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| bergie | disq: no idea, didn't figure out it yet myself either | 01:55 |
| bergie | ping me if you do ;-) | 01:55 |
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| disq | tried 26x26 and 48x48 both didn't work. and the icon is 32x32 | 02:03 |
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| etanoox | disq what's the problem? | 02:09 |
| disq | there's a plazes icon, 32x32 png, and it doesn't how up in the "start menu" (erm.. sorry for the windows reference) | 02:09 |
| disq | s/how/show | 02:09 |
| etanoox | i don't know | 02:14 |
| disq | anybody here working on malomo? | 02:16 |
| disq | fetched/compiled from svn last night, not bad but it's so slow right now | 02:16 |
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| kkito | disq, malomo? i dont know what it is ;? | 02:33 |
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| disq | the camera snapshot app | 02:43 |
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| maddler | damn... basybox is driving me crazy! | 03:07 |
| maddler | it keeps assigning $HOME="/home/user" instead of "/media/mmc3/user"! | 03:07 |
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| ko | ñ | 04:01 |
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| gpd | crap - my webserver hdd just died | 04:05 |
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| maddlero | Any clue if xchat supports fulldcreen? | 04:55 |
| maddlero | Can't find... and I'd say no.... | 04:56 |
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| Toma- | Is there a port of abuse in the works? | 05:16 |
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| darkstry | hey guys | 05:22 |
| everaldo | someone knows how setup HOST target under scratchbox ? | 05:22 |
| darkstry | does the mplayer work for the n800? | 05:22 |
| darkstry | ?? | 05:23 |
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| darkstry | ?? | 05:25 |
| darkstry | anyone in here? | 05:25 |
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| darkstry | does the mplayer work for the n800?\ | 05:28 |
| disq | i think so | 05:39 |
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| cxmac | howdy | 05:40 |
| * Tak n800 in hand | 05:54 | |
| Tak | wow - the n800 doesn't have the single-key limitation | 05:55 |
| disq | where? | 05:57 |
| darkstry | does the mplayer work for the n800? | 05:58 |
| darkstry | i cant download it | 05:58 |
| darkstry | it says wrong version | 05:58 |
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| shackan | is kernel-source-rx-34 2.6.18-osso29 the right source package for bora? | 06:50 |
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| disq | i so hate gtkrc and hildon | 06:53 |
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| Captain_Capacito | Hi, anyone here? | 07:00 |
| konfoo | lurking yes | 07:01 |
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| Captain_Capacito | got a quick question I was hoping someone could answer | 07:02 |
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| Captain_Capacito | care to give it a shot? | 07:02 |
| konfoo | just ask | 07:02 |
| Captain_Capacito | Ok well, I am trying to install the FM radio app. However, I seem to lack the package "libosso" and I can't seem to figure out how I should go about installing that | 07:04 |
| * gpd yawns | 07:04 | |
| gpd | apt-get install fmradio worked for me | 07:04 |
| konfoo | http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ApplicationRepositories maybe youre missing a repo | 07:04 |
| konfoo | gpd: same.. | 07:04 |
| Captain_Capacito | heh... ok.... now how would I go about getting a command line? :/ | 07:04 |
| gpd | I still can't believe it has a radio! :D | 07:04 |
| konfoo | gpd: indeed :) | 07:04 |
| gpd | I am an NPR-O-Holic | 07:05 |
| konfoo | heh | 07:05 |
| konfoo | would be even better if it had AM | 07:05 |
| gpd | That USB OTG stuff is also promising | 07:05 |
| gpd | i thought there was a dev post taht it *didn't* have OTG | 07:05 |
| konfoo | yeah i saw that as well | 07:05 |
| konfoo | http://www.marceloeduardo.com/blog/ excellent | 07:07 |
| konfoo | where is the n800 canola already | 07:07 |
| JoshTriplett | Does any documentation on the FM radio exist, for aspiring developers of a Free Software fmradio replacement? | 07:08 |
| [mbm] | you'll probably have to rip apart the nokia app | 07:08 |
| JoshTriplett | Sigh. | 07:08 |
| [mbm] | if it's just a few ioctls you might be able to do it with strace | 07:09 |
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| JoshTriplett | Haven't looked at the fmradio app yet. | 07:09 |
| JoshTriplett | But I plan to. | 07:10 |
| [mbm] | had it loaded here.. it was a "wow cool they hid an fm radio in here" and then 5 minutes later I was bored with it | 07:11 |
| gpd | i normally have to carry my fm radio nike player around - not anymore | 07:11 |
| JoshTriplett | [mbm]: I have a few good FM radio stations around here. And with something other than the Nokia application, perhaps recording off the FM radio might work. :) | 07:11 |
| [mbm] | JoshTriplett: well, the fm radio only works when you have the headphones connected as your antenna | 07:12 |
| [mbm] | otherwise you just get static | 07:12 |
| JoshTriplett | [mbm]: Plus, often the hardware has more capabilities than the software exposes; perhaps it could tune more broadly, for instance. | 07:12 |
| gpd | I live in LA so there are plenty of FM stations | 07:12 |
| JoshTriplett | [mbm]: *the* headphones or *any* headphones? | 07:12 |
| gpd | any headphones | 07:13 |
| [mbm] | well, any headphones | 07:13 |
| konfoo | gpd: all spanish :P | 07:13 |
| gpd | konfoo: si | 07:13 |
| JoshTriplett | [mbm]: Well, I use the headphones most of the time when not at home. | 07:13 |
| konfoo | gpd: where i LA are you at | 07:13 |
| Captain_Capacito | Justed added all those repositories and I still get the same thing :( | 07:13 |
| gpd | Westside baby -- around UCLA | 07:13 |
| [mbm] | I carry the n800 with me but I usually don't carry any cables or accessories | 07:13 |
| konfoo | ahhh | 07:13 |
| konfoo | im in mission viejo | 07:14 |
| gpd | I'll be heading down to SCALE this weekend | 07:14 |
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| gpd | http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale5x/ | 07:15 |
| konfoo | nod | 07:16 |
| gpd | cesman from this # says he will be on the knoppMyth stand | 07:17 |
| Tak | omfg, wtf is up with ancient vim in sbox?! | 07:17 |
| konfoo | i dunno if i am going this year | 07:18 |
| konfoo | i have been coding 16 hour days for the last 3 weeks almost and i am burned out | 07:18 |
| konfoo | this weekend = vegetate | 07:18 |
| gpd | fair enough | 07:19 |
| konfoo | anyone else from here going | 07:19 |
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| Tak | grr - what alsa devices does the n800 have? | 07:40 |
| Tak | no plughw:0,0 ... | 07:40 |
| kulve | use default | 07:44 |
| kulve | but it's just a software hack, afaik. | 07:44 |
| Tak | hm | 07:45 |
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| Tak | nice, thanks | 07:46 |
| disq | cpu transparency looks interesting | 07:49 |
| disq | though i prefer using the full maemo environment (ie. install one deb, then scp the binaries with each new build) | 07:50 |
| kulve | but you need cpu transp. to compile those binaries | 07:52 |
| kulve | compiling one .c can be done by just crosscompiling, but e.g. configure runs all kinds of tests that requires cpu transparency to be able to run arm binaries | 07:53 |
| kulve | configure e.g. compiles a binary and tests that it can run it | 07:53 |
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| [mbm] | that's just lazy people not writing configure scripts correctly | 07:54 |
| kulve | [mbm]: wrong | 07:54 |
| kulve | it's normal behaviour for configure to do those | 07:54 |
| kulve | unless you explicitly crosscompile stuff, but that's painful | 07:54 |
| [mbm] | I know it's "normal" to see that but it's the wrong behavior | 07:54 |
| disq | crosscompiling works for me, always worked for me | 07:55 |
| kulve | disq: heh, try crosscompiling e.g. perl | 07:55 |
| disq | if it doesn't crosscompile then obviously the sdk has problems | 07:55 |
| [mbm] | I mean the configure script should accept the --build and --target options and use the correct compiler | 07:55 |
| [mbm] | and I've lost track of how many packages didn't even do that correctly | 07:56 |
| tko | how do you crosscompile something that builds a C file which generates something required during the build time? | 07:57 |
| tko | only yesterday I heard you can't even "just compile" X | 07:57 |
| disq | ah, good tko is here :) | 07:57 |
| tko | only a few minutes | 07:58 |
| disq | tko, do you know who designed the current sapwood themes? wish i could put a bounty on their head.. what's with the gutters in HildonWindow, grrr | 07:58 |
| [mbm] | tko: like I said, you set the configure options so that those helper scripts it compiles are compiled for the cpu you're building on and not that of the target | 07:58 |
| disq | i was able to reduce the left border but can't do that with the right one without screwing up the theme (since images are left-aligned) | 07:59 |
| [mbm] | usually you can get away with: CC=arm-whatever-gcc; HOSTCC=gcc | 08:00 |
| [mbm] | export those into the environment and run configure | 08:00 |
| kulve | it's easy to crosscompile e.g. kernel, because it's meant to be crosscompiled. But SB allows as to just pretend we are doing native compililation and compile about any package | 08:00 |
| [mbm] | kulve: yeah I know, and imho it's lazy | 08:00 |
| kulve | [mbm]: but then you can't run any binaries. You can't test anything. And the testing it's reason of configure | 08:01 |
| kulve | [mbm]: hah | 08:01 |
| [mbm] | you're not running the damn binaries on the target platform | 08:01 |
| [mbm] | so it's somewhat pointless | 08:01 |
| kulve | go on, and try cross compiling the thousands of packages in debian.. | 08:01 |
| kulve | [mbm]: it depends | 08:01 |
| [mbm] | kulve: just an fyi, openwrt.org - we cross compile tons of shit | 08:01 |
| [mbm] | and yes, we even do perl | 08:02 |
| kulve | if you are using qemu as cpu transp, you are emulating stuff. If you use sbrshd, then you are actually running those on the target hw | 08:02 |
| kulve | I'm off | 08:03 |
| * [mbm] finds the whole configure scheme pretty ugly, have you ever actually read through a configure script? autogenerated mess | 08:04 | |
| kulve | but I'm not going to change all packages I need. There are just too many of them. That's why I use SB | 08:04 |
| tko | disq, can't tell you that, but you're not the first one to notice that | 08:04 |
| kulve | now I'm really off | 08:04 |
| [mbm] | kulve: and that's why you're lazy :) | 08:04 |
| tko | disq, the resistance group is working on removing or minimizing that :) | 08:05 |
| * [mbm] actually does patch the configure scripts | 08:05 | |
| disq | lol | 08:05 |
| tko | tigert is the point man there :) | 08:05 |
| disq | i wonder if i could tell sapwood to right align the images | 08:05 |
| tigert | morning | 08:06 |
| tko | huh? | 08:06 |
| disq | right border is still 24px right now, i could reduce it to 8px but it looks messed up since they're rendered left to right | 08:06 |
| disq | morning tigert :) | 08:07 |
| tigert | yea. i was thinking 12px or 8 | 08:07 |
| tko | disq, oh, you'd also need to touch the bitmap to match the (minimum) dimensions | 08:07 |
| tko | I haven't yet figure out how should one draw a 3x3 collection of bitmaps when the target area is smaller than any of the individual squares | 08:08 |
| disq | well.. just changing ::borders worked for the left side. it just doesn't render the extra part (and it's supposed to strech, but doesn't, yeah) | 08:08 |
| tigert | luckily it is themeable, so i am trying to do a -layout- package and fix the plankton in a "fork" to find thee correct spacing. | 08:08 |
| tigert | but this can luckily be done with only theme changes | 08:09 |
| tigert | so you can fix it by cropping the image as well | 08:10 |
| disq | i mean, if i can do it for the left side, it could also work for the right side. i'm not interested in providing new pngs and all that, just removing the gutters in maemopadplus :) | 08:10 |
| tigert | yeah. it would fix the thing for all apps. | 08:11 |
| disq | tigert: ''style "osso-window-background" { HildonWindow::borders = { 8, 24, 0, 24 } }'' works ok, doesn't stretch the left border but crops it | 08:11 |
| tko | it's a bit involved how the drawing is done... | 08:11 |
| tigert | but i am trying to fix this first in plankton. the area is there for legacy reasons, it was used in te os2006 themes more, but now its mostly white anyway, so i think it needs to go. | 08:12 |
| tko | disq, what are the borders for the right side window graphics? | 08:12 |
| tigert | yea, the right side bitmap must be fixed too to make it work | 08:13 |
| disq | tko: qgn_plat_application_frame_right.png? | 08:13 |
| tko | disq, can't recall, but sounds right and you seemed to be looking at the gtkrc already :) | 08:14 |
| tko | I'm wondering why it is left-aligned as the painting logic should in theory allow right aligning | 08:14 |
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| tigert | now that we have the automated theme tool, we could sometime axe out the qgn_plat_ :) | 08:14 |
| disq | i was actively changing maemopadplus.rc via ssh and restarting maemopadplus on the device repeatedly, just about an hour ago | 08:14 |
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| tko | IIRC storing the image filenames is the biggest memory consumer in the theme engine :) | 08:15 |
| tigert | tko, the bitmap should be exact size anyway | 08:15 |
| tko | tigert, true, but given the amount of white it just might work if it were right aligned | 08:16 |
| disq | yeah | 08:16 |
| tigert | heh, compressed names.. :) WNBGRGH~.PNG | 08:16 |
| tigert | ;) | 08:16 |
| tko | naw.. 1.png, 2.png, ... :) | 08:17 |
| disq | why, since you now have the automated theme tool, just make them 2 character names. 00 thru ff would suffice :p | 08:17 |
| tigert | heh. hashof8chars.png :) | 08:17 |
| disq | and ditch that .png too maybe | 08:17 |
| tko | barely :) | 08:17 |
| tko | hmm, using all the alphabet doesn't get you below two characters so not much saving.. | 08:18 |
| disq | 00 thru FF then? case sensitive :P | 08:19 |
| tko | I was thinking 00..ZZ | 08:19 |
| tko | case sensitive | 08:19 |
| disq | hmm.. yeah okay better | 08:19 |
| tigert | maybe we are drifting here slightly? :) | 08:19 |
| * disq recalls UMSDOS | 08:19 | |
| tko | impossible :) | 08:20 |
| [mbm] | echo filename | md5sum - | 08:20 |
| [mbm] | :) | 08:20 |
| tko | hmm, good thing I double checked the bus schedule. would've missed my bus had I left at the time I was thinking | 08:20 |
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| suihkulokki | gtk theme obfuscator.. | 08:20 |
| disq | btw, did you guys take a peek at apple's newton developer pdf? sean posted the link on the list, it's really interesting stuff | 08:20 |
| tigert | i am in the bus already | 08:20 |
| tigert | its full of kindergarten kids =) | 08:21 |
| disq | http://www.unna.org/unna/apple/documentation/developer/ProgrammersGuideOS2.0.pdf (soo much off topic) | 08:21 |
| disq | btw since you're both on the bus.. there's a new xchat build for n800 | 08:22 |
| tko | oh, I'm not yet. and I don't even have IRC on n800 :-] | 08:23 |
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| tigert | yea.i use ssh + irssi ;) | 08:24 |
| tko | oops. got to run | 08:24 |
| disq | okay :) | 08:24 |
| tigert | it works awesomely well with inz's xterm | 08:24 |
| [mbm] | ssh + screen + irssi / mutt | 08:24 |
| disq | mmm i should check out that xterm, the default font really sucks | 08:25 |
| [mbm] | I can usually switch between mutt and irssi a few times before people notice the difference | 08:25 |
| [mbm] | (must be the blue status bars) | 08:26 |
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| tigert | yeah | 08:27 |
| disq | do you know which wire is connected to the fmradio chip? ground? | 08:27 |
| tigert | inz xterm installs btstream vera and it rox0rz | 08:28 |
| disq | yeah it rox0rz my 770 already | 08:28 |
| [mbm] | disq: think it's using the headphone ground pin as the antenna | 08:28 |
| disq | i'll get a bare 3.5mm jack and solder a tiny wire there | 08:29 |
| disq | it's getting messy with the long headphone cord | 08:29 |
| [mbm] | what would be interesting is if the fmradio could give you a signal strength | 08:29 |
| disq | i wish the chip had rds but doesn't | 08:30 |
| [mbm] | hmm htat'd be fun | 08:30 |
| tigert | i wonder how wide freq band it has | 08:32 |
| disq | why don't they use dsp chips/software for this kind of things anyway? make it a dual dsp device, so what | 08:33 |
| [mbm] | at least 87.5-108 Mhz | 08:33 |
| disq | [mbm]: wow. that's really wide :P | 08:33 |
| [mbm] | well that's the fm spectrum | 08:34 |
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| tigert | ah right | 08:34 |
| tigert | that blackberry-like keypad | 08:34 |
| [mbm] | I'm somewhat curous what stage of the dsp the fmradio is hooked into | 08:35 |
| tigert | oops, wrong channel | 08:35 |
| tigert | (friend has a new eseries phone) | 08:35 |
| [mbm] | can the radio be recorded from the n800? | 08:36 |
| [mbm] | if so then you get to abuse it for some basic sampling of fm data | 08:36 |
| disq | (i don't believe in smartphones. i do believe in geek jackets that provide PAN though) | 08:36 |
| [mbm] | haha | 08:36 |
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| tigert | my friend likes his e61 | 08:37 |
| disq | mmm.. n97? | 08:37 |
| suihkulokki | [mbm]: I guess FM radio isn't connected to a any ad-converter, it just converts radiowaves to sound | 08:37 |
| tigert | but he is in japan, so the n800 wouldnt probably fit the same subay car with him :) | 08:37 |
| disq | mmm.. japan is good. (because they have 14 wifi channels instead of 11/13) | 08:38 |
| [mbm] | suihkulokki: well, they obviously put it through the mux and amp stages.. just curious if they hooked before that | 08:38 |
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| [mbm] | (btw the headphone/speaker toggle on the fm radio app can be used as a global toggle) | 08:39 |
| disq | shortcuts in xterm? wow, that rocks | 08:40 |
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| disq | a few months (a year?) ago i did that with hardware macros but that's so much better | 08:40 |
| tigert | yes. | 08:40 |
| tigert | i need to make the toolbar pretty still | 08:40 |
| tigert | those are defined in gconf btw | 08:41 |
| tigert | so you can tailor them to your taste | 08:41 |
| [mbm] | there's a few glitches with the toolbar and the highlights whe you click the buttons | 08:41 |
| [mbm] | occasionally the highlight isn't under the button | 08:41 |
| disq | make my toolbar pretty. i'll add more node types (check list, doubly checked check list, outline and maybe vectorsketch) need to design a new create new node dialog | 08:41 |
| tigert | yes. the problem is | 08:41 |
| tigert | the toolbar has no vertical style defined | 08:41 |
| disq | yeah that's weird | 08:42 |
| [mbm] | disq: as for shortcuts, a better trick is the handwriting input mode .. you can program shortcut phrases where an odd squiggle is transformed into an 80 character ssh commandline | 08:42 |
| disq | tigert: gtk_rc_parse(PIXMAPDIR "/maemopadplus.rc"); works for me btw. just before widget_show_all | 08:42 |
| tigert | it just assumes certain button height and it borks on vertical | 08:42 |
| tigert | disq, yeah | 08:43 |
| disq | tigert: ie. make a new gtkrc (just the modifications) and.. well you know | 08:43 |
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| [mbm] | hmm I need to find a nice travel bluetooth keyboard | 08:45 |
| tigert | thnks for the line though | 08:46 |
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| gpd | [mbm]: did you look at the think outside sierra - i have one | 08:48 |
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| [mbm] | gpd: used some of those before and they just feel flimsy | 08:51 |
| disq | btw i'm wondering why they didn't just make another layer on the pcb for the fm reception.. interference with wifi/bt? | 08:51 |
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| [mbm] | the headphones as antenna is a pretty common trick | 08:51 |
| disq | it is | 08:52 |
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| konfoo | i wonder at what level the transport is available to the os layer | 08:55 |
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| [mbm] | hmm just using the VIDIOC_G_TUNER ioctls | 08:57 |
| [mbm] | should be compatible with v4l | 08:58 |
| disq | if somebody's wondering: home/end for osso-xterm is KP_Home / KP_End | 08:58 |
| nelson | [mbm]: I have to point you at http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite | 08:58 |
| disq | (just like quake apparently) | 08:58 |
| [mbm] | nelson: slow site | 08:59 |
| nelson | yeah, I never set up static pages for it. | 08:59 |
| [mbm] | hmm interesting twiddler | 09:00 |
| konfoo | it would be interesting if the subcarrier for rds were exposed | 09:00 |
| nelson | konfoo: you must be european! | 09:00 |
| nelson | cuz most people in the USA have never heard of RDS. | 09:00 |
| konfoo | nelson: no, usa :) | 09:00 |
| konfoo | nelson: its what i do for a living (satellite mostly) | 09:01 |
| nelson | Aha! I knew it! Was just going to speculate as much. | 09:01 |
| konfoo | heh | 09:01 |
| [mbm] | http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/spec/r10087.htm .. that should be the api the nokia app uses | 09:01 |
| nelson | RDS is the Gobi Desert of radio services in the USA. | 09:02 |
| konfoo | i tried for a long time to push rds at FEMA for emergency services | 09:02 |
| konfoo | but they are knuckleheads | 09:02 |
| nelson | Yep. | 09:03 |
| [mbm] | heh, I love obscure/archane data formats .. always fun to see what data gets sent | 09:03 |
| nelson | RDS would be great for a lot of things, but ..... | 09:03 |
| disq | (yay for rds talk) | 09:03 |
| konfoo | oh rds is a ton of bandwidth | 09:03 |
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| konfoo | unfortunately its not used or used for junk.. or the local fm station has some ancient rds box that inserts a song title and that's it | 09:04 |
| konfoo | a pity really | 09:04 |
| disq | the nxp chip specs say it doesn't support rds. it might be filtering the data too. but if it doesn't do that, is it possible to process it with the dsp? | 09:04 |
| konfoo | the rds subcarrier is 115kbits or so | 09:05 |
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| konfoo | you just have to write a section demuxer | 09:05 |
| konfoo | if there isnt something already out there | 09:05 |
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| konfoo | http://v4l2spec.bytesex.org/spec/x6081.htm there we go | 09:08 |
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| konfoo | i bet 20 bux the read() for rds returns a null on this thing | 09:10 |
| [mbm] | hmm don't think there are any stations using rds near me or I'd check | 09:11 |
| konfoo | there are a bunch here in LA using it | 09:11 |
| [mbm] | -EINVAL trying to read from /dev/radio0 | 09:12 |
| konfoo | The modules for the main video chips (bttv, saa7134...) have to be modified to load and use the RDS decoder module. This has only been done for bttv so far. With a bttv card that has a SAA6588, you can read raw RDS data via /dev/radio after loading the saa6588 kernel module. For the moment, saa6588 is not requested automatically by bttv, you have to modprobe it manually. | 09:12 |
| disq | we know the chip doesn't support rds. so it's either still encoded in the audio (?) or stripped | 09:14 |
| [mbm] | ah, good point. no rds | 09:14 |
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| [mbm] | doubt that the radio is hooked to a dsp input for sampling | 09:15 |
| konfoo | the v4l2 wiki says all decoding done in userland space | 09:15 |
| [mbm] | konfoo: that's after you get the raw data | 09:15 |
| konfoo | yes | 09:15 |
| [mbm] | no raw rds data to decode | 09:15 |
| [mbm] | :/ | 09:15 |
| konfoo | nod, SOL | 09:16 |
| [mbm] | ok, listening to radio is boring as hell.. what else could be done with the chip | 09:17 |
| konfoo | heh | 09:17 |
| [mbm] | if we could get signal strength we could use it to home in on low poer fm transmitters | 09:17 |
| konfoo | if you had rds you could record those shows automagically :) | 09:17 |
| [mbm] | my interest in the dsp input is not for recording crappy radio shows; I'm thinking one way data transmissions | 09:18 |
| disq | i haven't seen any fm radio that reports signal strength. i don't think that term exists in receiver manufacturerland :P | 09:18 |
| [mbm] | disq: true, tends to be 'carrier/no carrier' | 09:19 |
| konfoo | probably because of the insane multipath | 09:19 |
| [mbm] | wonder what the chances are that I could transmit a few bits in square waves and decode them on the n800 | 09:20 |
| konfoo | is that radio device limited to 85-108 i wonder | 09:20 |
| konfoo | if u can hit 162 you can pick up noaa weather radio | 09:21 |
| konfoo | what else is there | 09:21 |
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| konfoo | EMWIN data in some cities | 09:21 |
| [mbm] | hmm.. where's that datasheet? | 09:21 |
| disq | nxp.. lemme find | 09:22 |
| disq | http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/literature/9397/75015439.pdf | 09:22 |
| disq | i didn't double check the chip name/model, that's the link in maemo-dev (lazy, yeah) | 09:23 |
| [mbm] | bah, that's a marketing paper | 09:23 |
| [mbm] | I want the technical | 09:23 |
| konfoo | http://www.weather.gov/emwin/zerx96a.htm | 09:23 |
| konfoo | and http://www.weather.gov/emwin/winbca.htm | 09:24 |
| [mbm] | disq: TEA5761UK | 09:25 |
| disq | "The FM stereo radio function, which is a next-generation | 09:25 |
| disq | version of the TEA5761" | 09:25 |
| disq | so nextgen = smaller? | 09:25 |
| konfoo | word | 09:25 |
| konfoo | aha | 09:26 |
| [mbm] | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4589 .. has all the chips | 09:26 |
| konfoo | there is a specific model of the 5764 that has rds | 09:26 |
| konfoo | which looks to be a variation of the 5761 | 09:27 |
| [mbm] | trying to find the chip in the picture to id it | 09:27 |
| konfoo | The TEA5761 FM radio and the TEA5764 FM radio plus radio-data-system (RDS) are offered as the smallest and most integrated such solutions for mobile phones. Occupying just 50 mm2 of pc-board area (one-third the footprint of previous parts), the TEA5761 requires only 14 external components while consuming just 11 mA. | 09:27 |
| konfoo | Requiring only 22 external components, the TEA5764 covers a total area of only 70 mm2 and has a current consumption of 13 mA. Housed in WL-CSP packages, both devices feature a clock frequency of 32.768 kHz and an I2C interface. | 09:27 |
| ab | [mbm]: TEA5761UK supports level detector (aka signal strength) and able to report it via i2c | 09:27 |
| [mbm] | upper left of the picture | 09:28 |
| [mbm] | TEA5761UK-CG5287 | 09:28 |
| [mbm] | ab: hmm interesting | 09:28 |
| ab | see table 19 | 09:29 |
| [mbm] | http://www.nxp.com/acrobat/datasheets/TEA5761UK_1.pdf | 09:30 |
| disq | nice | 09:30 |
| [mbm] | konfoo: 76-108 | 09:30 |
| [mbm] | (MHz) | 09:30 |
| ab | [mbm]: this is on page 24 | 09:30 |
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| konfoo | oh for jap | 09:31 |
| konfoo | ahh an easter egg bug with limitations. drat. | 09:31 |
| [mbm] | haha | 09:31 |
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| konfoo | http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf always handy | 09:33 |
| [mbm] | ab: table 10, bit 3 .. continuous rssi check | 09:33 |
| ab | this is just a flag | 09:34 |
| [mbm] | sure, but that implies that it's a one time sample otherwise | 09:34 |
| ab | while #19 describes 4 bit level measure | 09:34 |
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| konfoo | someone really needs to make a 3.5mm L-jack with 10cmx2.5mm antenna for the n800 now | 09:38 |
| konfoo | would make a nice desktop radio if nothing else :) | 09:38 |
| keesj | no location based stuff? | 09:38 |
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| disq | anybody have code to read touchscreen pressure data from gdk/gtk? i don't really feel like adapting a bunch of x11 code | 09:45 |
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| ab | [mbm]: radio-tea5761.c doesn't read from LEVCHK/IFCHK | 10:06 |
| ab | [mbm]: it is of course possible to do so (I think) and someone need to extend tea5761_do_ioctl() to support it | 10:07 |
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| ab | [mbm]: the issue here is that v4l2 has no ioctl which corresponds to this, so some other ioctl could be 'hijacked' by providing this value. May be VIDIOC_G_PARM could help here, it has V4L2_BUF_TYPE_PRIVATE for driver specific info | 10:15 |
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| [mbm] | ab: actually it does, it's on the VIDIO_G_TUNER ioctl, there's a 32bit signal | 10:18 |
| TFyre | good morning to everyone :) does anyone know how i would be able to use garmin/polish gps maps with maemo-mapper? | 10:19 |
| TFyre | ive been having some fun with GPSMapEdit from geopainting.com but it generates bmp files and thats waaaayyy to big even after compressing to jpg (like 1.6 TB) | 10:19 |
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| ab | [mbm]: ah, right. It spreads those 4 bits across 15-bits | 10:26 |
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| Akatemik | Any idea where the learnt words for the virtual keyboard are stored? | 10:28 |
| [mbm] | dunno .. I'd like a blacklist so it stops learning passwords via xterm | 10:29 |
| Akatemik | I'd like to see if it's able to quick teach words and to remove annoying, never used old ones | 10:29 |
| kulve | Akatemik: (home/user/.osso/hildon-input-method | 10:29 |
| kulve | s,(,/, | 10:29 |
| Akatemik | [mbm]: That too, although it won't learn anything new | 10:29 |
| Akatemik | kulve: Thanks | 10:29 |
| Akatemik | [mbm]: Using public-keys now | 10:29 |
| kulve | but it may be hard to do anything for single words.. | 10:29 |
| Akatemik | Ok... what format is that? | 10:30 |
| kulve | dunno.. :/ | 10:30 |
| [mbm] | hmm .. 'ART LIBRARY VER 2.0' on that hwr.lib | 10:32 |
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| disq | dpkg-buildpackage stripped my Maemo-Icon-26? | 10:33 |
| disq | ahh..XB- | 10:35 |
| keesj | disq: Yes something simliar happend to me when creating a repository | 10:35 |
| Akatemik | kulve: Google said that hwr.lib is for handwriting. Are you sure it also stores the words? | 10:36 |
| kulve | no | 10:36 |
| kulve | that's hwr, not words | 10:36 |
| Akatemik | Ok, so then it isn't what I'm looking for | 10:36 |
| kulve | .personal.dictionary and .used.dictionary | 10:37 |
| Akatemik | Ah, hidden files... | 10:37 |
| Akatemik | I kinda presumed that since .osso is hidden, it's contents wouldn't be. Dumb me | 10:37 |
| kulve | yeah, never assume anything on those devices :) | 10:38 |
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| Akatemik | Hmm... it's still a bit odd format. I guess because it also remembers that some words occur more often after certain words (like -client after dropbear) | 10:38 |
| keesj | I would be great to have pluggable completion for programming or using the xterm | 10:39 |
| kulve | Akatemik: I don't have clue about the format. I just deleted them, which ofc is not always a good solution.. | 10:39 |
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| Akatemik | Also would be nice to have a tool that would disable the preview/learning of the keyboard, for entering passwords inside xterm | 10:42 |
| Akatemik | Using public keys to connect from 770 to elsewhere covers most cases, but you still might want to use sudo on the remote host | 10:43 |
| kulve | tools->setting->word completion | 10:43 |
| kulve | from the keyboard menu | 10:43 |
| Akatemik | It also never stores them, with that disabled? | 10:44 |
| kulve | I think it doesn't, but I'm not sure | 10:44 |
| kulve | I always disable it while entering the passwd and I think it doesn't store them then | 10:45 |
| Akatemik | Well, let's enter the same word ten times and see if it get's to the .dictionaries :) | 10:45 |
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| Akatemik | Hmm, doesn't seem to learn | 10:47 |
| Akatemik | Although now that I tested the learning ability, even learned words don't appear in the dictionary | 10:47 |
| Akatemik | (or the word I just taught it, there's a bunch of old words there, sure) | 10:48 |
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| Juhaz | maybe xterm could ask for password input mode from the vkb when it's been told to not echo.. | 10:53 |
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| disq | man the 770 is annoyingly slow. or maybe it's the insensitive touchscreen (yeah, gotta get it fixed) | 10:55 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 11:03 |
| disq | morning | 11:04 |
| keesj | Hi | 11:06 |
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| Akatemik | Mmh, is ther libconic for maemo < 3.0? | 11:12 |
| Akatemik | there, even | 11:12 |
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| darkstry | anyone here? | 11:14 |
| darkstry | or alive? | 11:14 |
| darkstry | lol | 11:14 |
| part | darkstry: no | 11:14 |
| darkstry | lol | 11:14 |
| darkstry | can u answer me a quetsion | 11:14 |
| part | no | 11:14 |
| darkstry | lol why not | 11:15 |
| disq | depends | 11:15 |
| part | please learn to spell first | 11:15 |
| darkstry | does the mplayer work on the nokia n800? | 11:15 |
| darkstry | i cant seem to install it for some reason | 11:15 |
| darkstry | it says incompatible version | 11:15 |
| Guardian | morning maemo | 11:16 |
| darkstry | ? | 11:16 |
| disq | darkstry: probably the wrong repository? | 11:16 |
| darkstry | can u tell me which one it is? | 11:17 |
| darkstry | becuase it really doesnt say | 11:17 |
| darkstry | i just go on the website on my tablet... and click the install button | 11:17 |
| disq | darkstry: answer - http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=34027#post34027 | 11:17 |
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| disq | whoa mplayer comes with gmplauncher now? good | 11:18 |
| disq | (just installed) | 11:18 |
| konttori | disq: even on N800 it works better than default player. although not as much as it did on 770. | 11:19 |
| disq | yuv to rgb thingy still unresolved? | 11:19 |
| alp | has anyone played with /tmp/bme-dbus-socket? | 11:19 |
| disq | wow malomo comes with a (example) help file. that's unheard of :) | 11:22 |
| Jaffa | malomo? | 11:25 |
| disq | the cam app. still in svn though | 11:25 |
| polac_ | https://garage.maemo.org/projects/malomo/ | 11:25 |
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| nomis | moin. Can someone tell me where to get the N800 stock firmware image? | 11:25 |
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| disq | i thought it didn't work. then today i found my photos sitting on the toilet in MyDocs | 11:26 |
| jonek | morning | 11:26 |
| part | nomis: http://www.maemo.org/downloads/nokia_N800 | 11:26 |
| nomis | part: thanks. | 11:27 |
| dwd | disq: Your toilet has a MyDocs? | 11:30 |
| disq | (it also has a /media/mmc1 :P ) | 11:30 |
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| disq | wonder if i should solder my iriver earbuds to the nokia headphones | 11:33 |
| darkstry | thanks disq | 11:36 |
| Guardian | i just powered up my N800 for the first time this morning | 11:36 |
| Guardian | i installed fmradio from application manager | 11:36 |
| Guardian | i don't have any icon anywhere to launch it though, what did i miss ? :) | 11:36 |
| darkstry | did anyone install quetoo? | 11:36 |
| darkstry | guardian, i ask the same qustion | 11:37 |
| darkstry | i have that installed too | 11:37 |
| darkstry | but no other shit | 11:37 |
| darkstry | no icon to click on | 11:37 |
| disq | you guys missed the home applet | 11:37 |
| disq | darkstry: home-select applets-select fm radio from there | 11:37 |
| darkstry | home applet? | 11:38 |
| Guardian | a right | 11:38 |
| Guardian | thx | 11:38 |
| disq | or you could alternatively open xterm and run "fmradio" | 11:38 |
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| Guardian | does it require headphones as antenna ? | 11:40 |
| disq | yeah | 11:40 |
| disq | but you can choose between speakers and headphones as output, from the actual app | 11:40 |
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| darkstry | the radio not picking up channel | 11:42 |
| disq | plug in headphones. | 11:42 |
| Guardian | it's nice | 11:43 |
| Guardian | for additional apps, need to add downloads.maemo.org repo in the application maanger ? | 11:43 |
| darkstry | wierd | 11:44 |
| disq | Guardian: http://www.maemo.org/maemowiki/ApplicationRepositories | 11:44 |
| Guardian | thank you | 11:45 |
| darkstry | does quetoo work? | 11:47 |
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| disq | no idea | 11:51 |
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| * pahartik fails to find "°" from Nokia 770 keyboard | 11:55 | |
| darkstry | hmm | 11:56 |
| tigert | the radio app should really have a .desktop entry for menu launching | 11:56 |
| tigert | anyone want to do a package that adds it? ;) | 11:57 |
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| disq | that's too much debian for too little benefit :P | 11:59 |
| disq | what bugs me is that the different widths of the net radio applet and the fm radio applet | 12:00 |
| disq | and they don't support the new resizing api either | 12:00 |
| dwd | disq: You could potentially force the issue, by editing the desktop file, couldn't you? | 12:01 |
| disq | i looked for a way to hook the headset's "answer call" button, both with dbus-monitor and in /sys, came up with nothing | 12:01 |
| disq | there's a layout file in .osso somewhere lemme check | 12:02 |
| dwd | disq: Hummm... You sure the headset button isn | 12:02 |
| dwd | Feh. isn't mapped to a keyboard button? | 12:02 |
| disq | the device recognizes it, brightens/turns on the screen | 12:02 |
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| disq | ..when i squeeze the button | 12:03 |
| disq | maybe it is.. hmmm | 12:03 |
| dwd | You could write (or find/port) a little app that prints out keypress values. | 12:04 |
| nomis | flashing the N800 really is fast. | 12:05 |
| inz | I've made a xev package once | 12:05 |
| nomis | 6MB/sec. | 12:05 |
| inz | I guess it's in maemo-hackers mistral repo | 12:05 |
| disq | the only use for that button for me would be, if somebody writes a open source radio app, i will send a patch to control the radio (next/prev preset, even maybe stop/play) but that's all | 12:05 |
| disq | (or an alternate vkb method that implements morse code?) | 12:06 |
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| dwd | nomis: Okay, if you're benchmarking the flasher, you must be really bored. | 12:07 |
| Guardian | http://www.dailymotion.com/cluster/fun/video/x11yc7_robot-libido :) | 12:07 |
| Guardian | also, i tried to browse this url with the n800 | 12:07 |
| Guardian | and the video replay was jerky | 12:07 |
| Guardian | the flash video was preloaded entirely though | 12:07 |
| nomis | dwd: actually it prints out the throughput while flashing :) | 12:08 |
| disq | yep.. editing ~/.osso/hildon-home/applet_manager.conf works | 12:08 |
| nomis | (and I am flashing the N800 to return it :-( | 12:08 |
| dwd | nomis: Oh? | 12:08 |
| nomis | dwd: defective camera switch. | 12:08 |
| dwd | nomis: Ah. | 12:08 |
| nomis | and yes, this sucks a lot. | 12:09 |
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| disq | what's the headset button called btw? | 12:10 |
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| dwd | disq: George. | 12:10 |
| disq | g.e.o.r.g.e? | 12:11 |
| dwd | disq: No, just George. The power button's called Robert, but you can call it Bob if you get to know it well. | 12:12 |
| inz | Does the power button have man-boobs? | 12:14 |
| dwd | That's Mr Power Button to you. | 12:14 |
| inz | Cocky, are we ;) | 12:15 |
| inz | And no, that's not Mr. Cocky to me. | 12:16 |
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| tigert | hehe | 12:34 |
| |tbb|_ | wow,autoscan on the n800 | 12:35 |
| tigert | on the radio? | 12:35 |
| |tbb|_ | no no, thats a network scanner | 12:36 |
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| tigert | ah ok | 12:40 |
| X-Fade | tigert: Can you share your vision on maemo2midgard for the frontpage? I just replied to Ferencs mail. | 12:41 |
| tigert | i am away from mail today, but something like rubyonrails.org would be nice | 12:43 |
| tigert | a nice showcase of few facts and pointers to important things | 12:43 |
| X-Fade | I like the news and planet columns in this mockup: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeWeb/LooknFeel#head-30d0cfc061c13dfe0c7fbb19cefaaf724502ef4f | 12:44 |
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| keesj | sKaBoy: are you there? | 12:50 |
| sKaBoy | keesj, yep | 12:50 |
| keesj | I hope you don't find it all to anoying :p | 12:50 |
| keesj | we are still searching for the best solution, | 12:51 |
| sKaBoy | keesj, nah, no problem! it's better to do a good port than a semi-working one! | 12:51 |
| keesj | sKaBoy: it's more about how we will handle things in the future,(and how we automate this :p) | 12:52 |
| sKaBoy | keesj, and it would be a good example for future packages.. | 12:52 |
| sKaBoy | right! | 12:52 |
| keesj | we also need guidelines for patching rules and control, why have a depends and build-depends and configure add if you still wil end up patching the files | 12:53 |
| disq | hmm.. i'm assuming this is mud talk | 12:55 |
| keesj | I am not a great patch guru , but it is already is two complicated for me if I would like to change something | 12:55 |
| keesj | disq: you do mind? | 12:55 |
| disq | on the contrary | 12:55 |
| keesj | alright :p | 12:55 |
| disq | :) | 12:55 |
| Jaffa | Auto-revert of build-changed files (whether by mud or dpkg-buildpackage) is on the TODO. | 12:56 |
| Guardian | can the n770 or n800 be used as a gps ? | 12:59 |
| Guardian | (it may be a dumb question :/ ) | 13:00 |
| keesj | sKaBoy sent a mud with that actualy does two patches from wich one is downloaded from the web. it is pretty clean if you know the patch will be sent to the upstream maintainer. but perhaps it makes things just a little to complicated, we would at least need to put the file somewhere in svn | 13:00 |
| keesj | Guardian: it can use gps but there is no gps hardware in it | 13:00 |
| keesj | Guardian: perhaps there are some nice tricks that can be done using known hotspots , or using a tool like gnokii to get the signal information from a cell phone | 13:01 |
| Guardian | keesj: yeah i came accross http://www.amazegps.com/welcome.php few days ago | 13:02 |
| keesj | disq: sorry for my ignorance did you look at mud yet? | 13:02 |
| Guardian | keesj: but afaik it's rather expensive and you also need additional positioning module | 13:03 |
| disq | keesj :) i'm the guy who's trying to compile libsqlite3 | 13:04 |
| keesj | Guardian: did you read the smart2go anouncement ? | 13:04 |
| keesj | disq: ok :) | 13:05 |
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| keesj | I am goind to try to make a dsl based qemu maemo image to automate the mud building , so we can start from a clean enviroment every time. | 13:07 |
| disq | mmm... now interestingly mud refuses to start building libreadline4 "Couldn't find extract directory!, build.pm line 79" | 13:07 |
| keesj | Jaffa: I would like to know what your feelings are about the two patch thing. | 13:07 |
| sKaBoy | keesj, sorry, i'm at work.. have you had time to contact gpe maintainers? | 13:08 |
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| Jaffa | keesj: downloading patches which are necessary for proper building is not good: no reliance on it always being there. If the patch in question is also headed upstream, then we've got two options: duplicate it in patch/$PACKAGE and sort out the diff when the patch makes it upstream, 2) make it so patch/$PACKAGE and patch/$PACKAGE.<n> get applied (with <n> giving an order) | 13:10 |
| disq | just checked, building libsqlite3 still seems to work | 13:10 |
| sKaBoy | Jaffa, keesj, i'm with (2). or do a patch/$PACKAGE/000-file.patch, .../001-file2.patch and so on.. like debian packages | 13:12 |
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| keesj | Jaffa: and the last patch will be the mud diff patch? | 13:14 |
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| inz | hint to debian/ubuntu laptop and scratchbox users: sudo sh -c 'echo -e "#!/bin/sh\ncp /etc/resolv.conf /scratchbox/etc/resolv.conf" > /etc/network/if-up.d/scratchbox; chmod a+x /etc/network/if-up.d/scratchbox' | 13:14 |
| inz | (wondered for a longish time yesterday, why my apt-get in scratchbox didn't work at school, while it worked well at home and at work) | 13:15 |
| inz | ((tuned out, that the dns server had the same address at work and at home)) | 13:15 |
| disq | having a static resolve.conf it works for me :p | 13:16 |
| mgedmin | dnsmasq might be easier | 13:16 |
| inz | Yeah, that should work too | 13:16 |
| inz | I think I need to setup some smtp proxy too | 13:16 |
| inz | Some stupidass networks block outgoing 25 | 13:16 |
| disq | btw inz, have i mentioned how much your new xterm toolbar rocks? thanks. | 13:16 |
| inz | disq, not sure, but thanks anyway =) | 13:17 |
| Jaffa | sKaBoy: agreed, although I'm loathe to re-invent the whole of Debian for something which is supposed to be simpler ;-) | 13:17 |
| mgedmin | given the number of wormy windows machines on the net, I think it's very neighbourly of ISPs to block outgoing port 25 | 13:17 |
| Jaffa | keesj: err, if you have both? Not sure whether patch/$PACKAGE should be considered as patch/$PACKAGE.0 or patch/$PACKAGE.$MAXINT | 13:18 |
| inz | mgedmin, well, granted, it's not that bad practice, but it gets frustrating to change the outgoing smtp all the time | 13:18 |
| disq | i configured it as pgup/pgdn/home/end/tab/esc/enter (yeah, i'm a mc freak) | 13:18 |
| mgedmin | inz: true | 13:18 |
| Guardian | keesj: no gonna google for it | 13:18 |
| mgedmin | for roaming I use authenticated smtp over ssl to my work server | 13:18 |
| keesj | Jaffa: also I don't know how to revert changes can you help me with that? | 13:18 |
| mgedmin | port 465 is usually not blocked | 13:19 |
| inz | mgedmin, yeah, I guess I could make my smtp use ssl, currently it only does tls | 13:19 |
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| sKaBoy | Jaffa, well you can call dpatch directly :) | 13:19 |
| mgedmin | inz: very true, the xterm keybar is the best thing ever | 13:19 |
| dwd | inz: Port 587 shouldn';t be blocked, and should be used for submission of new mail. | 13:19 |
| mgedmin | inz: or perhaps I use tls over port 2525, I don't exactly remember :) | 13:19 |
| inz | mgedmin, =) | 13:20 |
| mgedmin | 587 is something new to me | 13:20 |
| dwd | inz: Port 25 should be only for s2s, these days. | 13:20 |
| mgedmin | I tried to read that rfc once, I think | 13:20 |
| mgedmin | but fell asleep | 13:20 |
| mgedmin | so I don't know why | 13:20 |
| * inz checks if his postfix listens on 587... | 13:21 | |
| dwd | mgedmin: It's one of Randy Gellens's, his are usually pretty readable. | 13:21 |
| mgedmin | I was tired :) | 13:21 |
| inz | nope... | 13:21 |
| dwd | inz: Probably not by default. Want the config? | 13:21 |
| mgedmin | not right now, I should be working... | 13:21 |
| Jaffa | sKaBoy: good point | 13:22 |
| dwd | inz: Actually, if you've ommented out bits in /etc/postfix/master.cf about submission, you could just turn those on. | 13:23 |
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| suihkulokki | inz: that's RFC 2476, and it's precisely the port/rfc for your use case | 13:24 |
| dwd | suihkulokki: That's the old one, I think it's been updated since then. | 13:24 |
| inz | dwd, there seems to be commented out line there for submission... | 13:25 |
| dwd | inz: In the copy I have, that enforces TLS, which you might not want. | 13:25 |
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| inz | dwd, that would actually be good... | 13:27 |
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| inz | dwd, but I guess I can live with this, I guess no one else is using that, but me ;) | 13:27 |
| inz | dwd, and I do remember to put the TLS tap to the right place ;) | 13:28 |
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| dwd | inz: As long as all your clients support STARTTLS in a sane way, you should be fine. | 13:29 |
| inz | dwd, I'd guess thunderbird can do that | 13:29 |
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| Guardian | is there a way to ask for a password before hildon starts ? | 13:39 |
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| Guardian | prolly like gdm logon | 13:39 |
| neostrider | hello friends | 13:40 |
| neostrider | are are thing going on maemo land? | 13:40 |
| inz | Guardian, you can enable device lock, so it asks for the lock code | 13:40 |
| dwd | inz: Probably. Or you could use Polymer, of course, thus incidentally configuring Telomer too. | 13:40 |
| Guardian | inz: i was also wondering about a "sign to unlock device" module but i guess there is not proper api to plug that | 13:41 |
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| inz | dwd, i guess I'll stick to thunderird (s are go) for now... ;) | 13:45 |
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| neostrider | kkito: good morning! how are things going on Q2? | 13:57 |
| kkito | neostrider, hello :) if you want i can make a package | 13:58 |
| neostrider | great! | 13:59 |
| neostrider | (im using scirocco) | 13:59 |
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| disq | ha! hit a bug in gtkextensionevents | 13:59 |
| kkito | neostrider, i have only a n800, then i will make a bora package | 14:00 |
| neostrider | hey | 14:00 |
| neostrider | but would be unplayable on the 770,right? | 14:00 |
| kkito | if you want i can share the sources too | 14:00 |
| neostrider | or you wanna test it? heheh | 14:00 |
| kkito | neostrider, i dont know :/ | 14:00 |
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| neostrider | can you just pack the source | 14:01 |
| neostrider | I can try to build it here | 14:01 |
| neostrider | im still using the mistral SDK (and it is doing fine) | 14:02 |
| neostrider | the sources would be very welcome | 14:03 |
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| inz | whee, got dpkg-repack to work on n800 =) | 14:10 |
| Jaffa | dpkg-repack? | 14:10 |
| inz | Jaffa, makes .debs from installed packages | 14:11 |
| Jaffa | Oh, the "build a deb from the installed package" thingy? | 14:11 |
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| Jaffa | Yeah, I remember :) | 14:11 |
| Jaffa | Never tried it, how useful is it? | 14:11 |
| inz | Jaffa, not very ;) | 14:11 |
| inz | Jaffa, as it naturally cannot generate the -dev packages... | 14:12 |
| Veggen | the lack of source packages are a nuicance in itself, btw. | 14:13 |
| Veggen | People should be whacked. Thoroughly :) | 14:14 |
| inz | I don't understand why, for example, osso-clock and osso-clock-widget aren't open source | 14:14 |
| part | a proprietary clock sounds dumb | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | inz: My guess is that anything Nokia wrote themselves entirely from scratch isn't open source; anything which modified an existing open source product (email, RSS, calculator) is OSS. | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | Although it's somewhat ironic that the "osso" name is used on closed source components. | 14:16 |
| part | jaffa: what closed components use "osso"? | 14:16 |
| inz | Jaffa, alarmd is entirely nokia and is oss ;) | 14:16 |
| inz | part, osso-sketch, osso-notes... | 14:16 |
| Jaffa | part: osso-clock, as already mentioned. | 14:17 |
| inz | If you do dpkg -l 'osso-*' you get quite a list of packages | 14:17 |
| Jaffa | inz: ah, damnit - another fine theory ruined. What about entirely Nokia-produced *GUI* applications? | 14:17 |
| inz | out of maybe ~10 are open | 14:17 |
| inz | Jaffa, that sounds more likely ;) | 14:18 |
| inz | Grr, the source for alarmd 0.4.2 is still not released | 14:18 |
| part | jaffa: ah, that's true. that's dumb too, but I guess "osso" doesn't equal open | 14:18 |
| bergie | guys, anybody know if the Maemo clock has any DBUS services? We could tell it to switch timezones (or set the "remote location") based on where the device is positioned in Plazes | 14:19 |
| * Jaffa 's never seen a Plazes hotspot AFAIK, where's it prevalent? | 14:20 | |
| mgedmin | today my panel-clock stopped at 10:56 and showed that time for about 1.5 hours | 14:20 |
| mgedmin | I was a bit late for work as a result :) | 14:20 |
| bergie | Jaffa: any WiFi spot can be registered to Plazes | 14:20 |
| Jaffa | bergie: ah, I see. | 14:20 |
| bergie | Jaffa: Plazes is just a database of position info per access point MAC address | 14:20 |
| inz | bergie, it has gconf keys, and uses the standard /etc/localtime | 14:21 |
| bergie | inz: ok | 14:21 |
| * bergie has to investigate that then | 14:21 | |
| inz | bergie, and there's osso_time_set, which should be called after the timezone has been changed | 14:22 |
| bergie | inz: the big question is whether we want to actually switch timezone of the device, or just set the remote location | 14:28 |
| inz | bergie, setting the remote location does pretty much nothing afaik | 14:29 |
| bergie | true | 14:29 |
| bergie | maybe we could ask user "According to Plazes your time zone has changed. Want to set system clock? Yes/No" | 14:29 |
| bergie | Since you don't change time zones that often that shouldn't become too annoying | 14:30 |
| bergie | and just doing it silently in background could be weird since user never really knows when and why it happens | 14:30 |
| bergie | just like with cell phones... the automatic time zone update never appears to work correctly | 14:30 |
| bergie | Plazes returns a time zone, but if we use GeoClue and thus also support other means of positioning (like GPS), we could use the timezone web service from here to get it: http://www.geonames.org/export/ | 14:32 |
| * Jaffa 's cell phone time update always seems to work well (around western Europe, at least) | 14:34 | |
| bergie | Jaffa: I've never had it work for some reason | 14:38 |
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| Jaffa | bergie: I think it can be quite operator dependent. | 14:44 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: I know some cells in Belgium that have a wrong time. Everytime I pass by them, my clock is screwed up :) | 14:44 |
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| Jaffa | X-Fade: fun | 14:44 |
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| X-Fade | Jaffa: Not really :) | 14:46 |
| disq | bergie: does plazes only submit the current connected AP? what if i'm connected via gprs/bt but there are APs (possibly encrypted) around? how about multiple APs? | 14:50 |
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| bergie | disq: only the connected AP | 14:54 |
| disq | ok, is that how plazes works or a limitation of the current script? | 14:54 |
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| bergie | that is the way most plazes apps work | 14:56 |
| bergie | no idea if I can read the MAC addresses of APs I'm not connected to | 14:56 |
| disq | that kinda limits the usage of plazes | 14:57 |
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| disq | the application catalog in the wiki will soon start to crash some browsers | 15:08 |
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| disq | (not to mention some opera bundled internet tablets) | 15:09 |
| mgedmin | the new application catalog is prettier | 15:09 |
| mgedmin | with it had more fields (e.g. separate urls for home page and port page) | 15:10 |
| mgedmin | s/with/wish/ | 15:10 |
| mgedmin | in-line .install file generation would also be Very Very Nice | 15:10 |
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| disq | tuxpaint is 3 megs? woah | 15:13 |
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| jon1012 | hey someone knows how much is the guarantee on a 770 ? | 15:14 |
| jon1012 | my screen starts to be very strange | 15:14 |
| jon1012 | and it only has a few months | 15:14 |
| mgedmin | warranty? I think it's 12 months | 15:14 |
| jon1012 | ok thx | 15:14 |
| jon1012 | I've seen people on forums saying that in france they weren't able to get waranty | 15:15 |
| jon1012 | I hope it won't be my case | 15:15 |
| mgedmin | http://www.nokiausa.com/support/warranty/item_details/1,1955,item:770,00.html | 15:15 |
| mgedmin | hm, that's for "products purchased in the US" | 15:15 |
| jon1012 | anyway, those people where able to get warantee suing nokia | 15:15 |
| jon1012 | I hope I won't have to do the same lol | 15:15 |
| disq | you can try sending the device to italy/germany etc? uk? | 15:16 |
| mgedmin | european nokia shop's warranty FAQ says 24 months for phones sold in Europe | 15:17 |
| mgedmin | does not mention internet tablets | 15:17 |
| jon1012 | ok | 15:17 |
| jon1012 | yeah | 15:17 |
| jon1012 | bwah I'll try reflashing, maybe it's not an hardware problem | 15:17 |
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| jon1012 | (there are vertical lines on the screen when there are bright colors) | 15:19 |
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| mgedmin | uh oh | 15:21 |
| mgedmin | hardware problem | 15:21 |
| jon1012 | http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/discussions/board/message?board.id=accessories&message.id=3592 | 15:21 |
| jon1012 | arg, and no customer srvice for intertnet tablets in france :( | 15:22 |
| vittorio | i have problems with my n800 touchscreen. the right side is now alot less sensitive than the left side ,so i have to press with more force. is there a way to make it more sensitive again? | 15:23 |
| [mbm] | odd. try recalibrating it? | 15:24 |
| vittorio | yes, didnt help | 15:24 |
| zuh | Rub it with magical pixie dust ;) | 15:24 |
| disq | also do a search in internettablettalk.com forums | 15:24 |
| vittorio | i have none :) | 15:24 |
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| jon1012 | some peoplek on forums say it may be the graphical drivers corrupted by failed boot | 15:26 |
| * [mbm] was thinking something mechanical like a screen protector on too tight | 15:26 | |
| jon1012 | :( | 15:26 |
| jon1012 | but it wasn't doing that until 1 hour ago | 15:27 |
| jon1012 | I will try reflashing | 15:27 |
| jon1012 | maybe it will help | 15:27 |
| jon1012 | if not I'll call nokia | 15:27 |
| jon1012 | (but I can't find their number as when you try to go to "repair" and select france you get a white page :s) | 15:27 |
| disq | good luck, though your best bet is probably talking to nokia (i'm serious, give the another country thing a go) | 15:27 |
| jon1012 | bwah, shitty cxustomer service | 15:28 |
| jon1012 | I would have known I wouldn't have bought nokia, even if I love maemo :-/ | 15:28 |
| [mbm] | hnn.. n800 really needs a suspend mode; I just heard the thing rebooting itself even though it's been sitting idle for the last 6 hours | 15:29 |
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| disq | [mbm]: it still reboots in suspend mode (well it's not a real suspend, a screen off mode) | 15:31 |
| [mbm] | that's what I mean it needs a real damn suspend mode | 15:31 |
| disq | :/ | 15:31 |
| [mbm] | there is a /sys/power/state where you can put it into a lowpower standby but if you leave it in that state for more than 30 seconds it doesn't seem to come out of it without rebooting | 15:32 |
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| jon1012 | argl even worse after reflashing | 15:33 |
| disq | btw i still wonder why they left the soft poweroff (=turn off screen :p ) commented out in systemui.xml | 15:33 |
| [mbm] | disq: because it doesn't actually do a damn thing? | 15:33 |
| [mbm] | turns off the screen and pretends to be off | 15:33 |
| disq | jon1012: that's a hardware defect then, they should be able to replace it | 15:33 |
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| disq | [mbm]: it helps when you're carrying it in your pocket, since it won't turn the screen on unless you hold the power key | 15:34 |
| Jaffa | Be interesting to see if the systemui.xml could be intercepted (DBUS/command) to do random things. Then soft poweroff could drop network connections and then act like the 770's cover. | 15:35 |
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| [mbm] | Jaffa: looked at it and it only seems to return an enum | 15:37 |
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| [mbm] | you can't set arbitrary commands | 15:37 |
| [mbm] | oh and there's also a /etc/mce where you can program what to do when the buttons are pressed | 15:37 |
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| jon1012 | mhh | 15:40 |
| jon1012 | for suppport | 15:40 |
| jon1012 | nokia asks me the imei number ? | 15:40 |
| jon1012 | what should I enter ? | 15:40 |
| jon1012 | someone knows ? | 15:40 |
| disq | internet tablets don't have imei numbers | 15:41 |
| disq | though if you have a nokia phone you can enter that one | 15:41 |
| vittorio | wow cool, FM radio really works | 15:41 |
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| jon1012 | I don't have a nokia phone :-/ | 15:42 |
| jon1012 | bwah it won't let me get supoport if I don't have an imei :( | 15:43 |
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| jon1012 | someone have a random nokia imei I can enter there ? | 15:43 |
| jon1012 | (because here it tells me that it doesn't appear to be valid) | 15:43 |
| [mbm] | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMEI | 15:44 |
| jon1012 | thx | 15:44 |
| jon1012 | http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3505 mhh | 15:44 |
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| bergie | nice, the maemoplazer is now able to sit and watch for network changes... I wonder about the best way to activate it, though | 15:50 |
| jon1012 | bwah I've had to use firebug to bypass the javascript imei validatin :( | 15:50 |
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| Jaffa | jon1012: ring up? | 15:54 |
| jon1012 | Jaffa: ? | 15:54 |
| sp3000 | heh | 15:54 |
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| Jaffa | jon1012: it sounds like you're using a web interface. Why not just ring the phone number (and follow the "PC Connectivity" hint to get to Level 2 Support) | 15:58 |
| jon1012 | I got someone on the phone right now | 16:01 |
| jon1012 | "we can't fix internet tablets, try to find a correct support center for it" | 16:01 |
| jon1012 | fuck it | 16:01 |
| jon1012 | I haven't got any pc connectivy | 16:01 |
| jon1012 | they told me to contact a phone shop near my home lol | 16:02 |
| jon1012 | fuck nokia : | 16:02 |
| jon1012 | :) | 16:02 |
| jon1012 | burning my tablet would be easier lol | 16:02 |
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| [mbm] | can't he just give the tablet to one of us and say he burned it? | 16:03 |
| Jaffa | Nokia support sounds like a nightmare for Maemo devices. Glad I've not had to use it (touch wood) | 16:04 |
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| cybergypsy | hi guys , my n800 has finally arrived - how do i find its MAC address ? | 16:04 |
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| cybergypsy | nevermind , its inside the battery cover | 16:06 |
| tigert | yesh | 16:09 |
| tigert | bergie: one thing would be to make a home applet | 16:10 |
| tigert | adding Yet Another Status Icon is not a good idea | 16:10 |
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| Veggen | Jaffa: I handed my N770 to a local Nokia dealer. He had no clue what the hell it was, nor where to send it, but I insisted that he should be able to find out. And it *did* work out, in the end, I got a call after a month or two, saying it was back again. | 16:19 |
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| * Jaffa would find "a month or two" completely unacceptable, TBH. | 16:22 | |
| * disq avoids referring to himself in third person, but he agrees | 16:23 | |
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| Veggen | Jaffa: Well. It *was* over christmas, etc. | 16:27 |
| Veggen | ...and I was generally too busy to play or follow up anyways :) | 16:28 |
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| Disconnect | when my 770 blew up (plugged it in to charge and it went boom) I sent it in (followed directions on nokia's website, including the problem-page pdf thing), they lost it for 3 weeks, found it (minus the memory card - my bad for forgetting it - and the power brick that blew it up) replaced it (after another couple weeks) without the card or brick. finally sent 2 64M cards (to replace a 512!) and after almost 3 months, a new power pack | 16:33 |
| Disconnect | (making it way more useful...) | 16:33 |
| ian_brasil | Christmas is different for people addicted to computers...Father Christmas comes down the modem and leaves from the serial port and sya's "Happy Christmas, ROM ROM ROM" | 16:33 |
| disq | stupid GDK_POINTER_MOTION_HINT_MASK was messing up my events | 16:34 |
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| Veggen | ian_brasil: I had a ruby-on-rails-spare-time-project that was in despeate need for attention during christmas ;) | 16:36 |
| Veggen | so it was actually just good that my 770 was away. | 16:36 |
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| disq | great | 16:39 |
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| jon1012 | I confirm what I was thinking, nokia has the worst customer support I've ever seen :) | 17:02 |
| jon1012 | as soon asit gets back from repair (if they repair it as it's not sure from what they said... it could cost me 300$), I sell it on ebay and no more nokia devices for me | 17:04 |
| jon1012 | that said sorry for disturbing you :) | 17:04 |
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| * nomis waits for what comes with his device. | 17:05 | |
| Tak|work | fries? | 17:05 |
| nomis | but i wanted baked potatos! | 17:06 |
| jon1012 | seriously, a device still under waranty, with a screen problem waused by a manufacturing problem, and they say it may cost you 300$, fuck nokia :) | 17:06 |
| jon1012 | (no sorry, more than that, as it's 300€) | 17:06 |
| Tak|work | jon1012: you're understandably upset, but what do you expect to accomplish by griping about it in here? | 17:06 |
| mgedmin | eh??? | 17:06 |
| mgedmin | scare us away | 17:06 |
| jon1012 | Tak|work: nothing :p | 17:06 |
| mgedmin | (which is not likely) | 17:06 |
| jon1012 | Tak|work: but maybe there are nokia gys here who may listen for next products :) | 17:07 |
| jon1012 | s/gys/guys | 17:07 |
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| mgedmin | nokia internet tablets: cool hardware, mediocre software, customer support from hell | 17:07 |
| mgedmin | at least the software keeps getting better | 17:07 |
| jon1012 | anyway once all this is finished, I'll post an open-letter to nokia on my blog | 17:08 |
| kkito | mgedmin, cool hardware without drivers | 17:08 |
| mgedmin | drivers == software | 17:08 |
| kkito | then it isnt so cool.... | 17:08 |
| mgedmin | that's part of its mediocricity (sp?) | 17:08 |
| thomasvs | jon1012: posting open letters on blogs is not a correct way of informing a company of a problem | 17:10 |
| thomasvs | or, at least, don't call it "an open letter" :) | 17:10 |
| jon1012 | thomasvs: when their customer support ell you "go to hell", it is | 17:10 |
| thomasvs | jon1012: not if you want to achieve something instead of just coming off all emo :) | 17:11 |
| thomasvs | jon1012: I assume you want someone at nokia to hear your complaint | 17:11 |
| jon1012 | seriously, I am one of the associates of a computer hardware assembler and it consulting company, if we did that to a client we would be taken out of business in less than one year ! | 17:11 |
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| nomis | thomasvs: I really wish there were a channel where you could tell Nokia about stuff and they would take it seriously on a certain level. I'd like to discuss some hardware design descisions etc. and of course the maemo team here is not the proper partner for this. | 17:12 |
| Tak|work | hell, I wish every company had an irc channel cor customer interaction | 17:12 |
| jon1012 | yeah | 17:12 |
| jon1012 | thomasvs: tell me one good way then | 17:12 |
| Tak|work | unfortunately, most companies can barely get CS people who speak coherently | 17:13 |
| thomasvs | jon1012: exactly, so find the right persion at nokia to send "a letter" to, a blog is a pull model not a push model | 17:13 |
| jon1012 | at last my blog has more than 1k visit per day, so maybe they will hear me | 17:13 |
| nomis | I would be completely happy with a snail mail address if someone would guarantee me that they would read it and provide non-boilerplate answers. | 17:13 |
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| nomis | so that your suggestions would actually reach the responsible team. | 17:13 |
| nomis | "I want a hard cover for the next internet tablet, the felt pouch is unable to keep the device from waking up when thrown into a bag. | 17:14 |
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| nomis | "also the felt pouch not even manages to keep the device inside it." | 17:14 |
| thomasvs | nomis: I believe you can buy one in the accessories, I would much prefer it too | 17:15 |
| thomasvs | anyway, my usual strategy is to gripe directly to the nokia devs that I know | 17:15 |
| jon1012 | thomasvs: do you know that good person to mail ? :) | 17:15 |
| nomis | thomasvs: the thing is that I don' | 17:15 |
| thomasvs | jon1012: heh, that only works because you know them | 17:15 |
| thomasvs | jon1012: and even then it doesn't always work | 17:15 |
| nomis | don't understand why they departed from the perfect solution with the 770. | 17:15 |
| jon1012 | thomasvs: so an open letter is the good way to go for me ! | 17:16 |
| thomasvs | jon1012: ok, good luck | 17:16 |
| Tak|work | apparently not everybody felt it was perfect | 17:16 |
| jon1012 | thomasvs: thanks :) | 17:16 |
| jon1012 | thomasvs: anyway I will only really complain if they don't want to repare it | 17:16 |
| Veggen | jon1012: The tablets are and will probably be "odd" devices that many nokia people will have no clue about, at all. | 17:17 |
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| jon1012 | Veggen: yeah but that someone in customer service tells me "well, if you aren't happy, sue us ! you won't have success without that" isn't really a good way of handling customers | 17:19 |
| jon1012 | (my translation maybe is bad, I'm not native english) | 17:19 |
| part | nomis: I don't think there is anyone anywhere who would actually listen | 17:19 |
| tzz | I strongly disagree the Nokia ITOS software is mediocre. It's extremely good as far as Linux UI goes. It's miles ahead of the Newton, PalmOS, S60, or Windows Mobile, all of which I have used. | 17:23 |
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| tzz | (responding to mgedmin) | 17:23 |
| Tak|work | there's at least one newton user who disagrees ;-) | 17:23 |
| tzz | oh, I know. But, having used the Newton, I can tell you it wasn't quite the rhapsody it's made out to be by its fanboys. | 17:25 |
| mgedmin | tzz: do you really believe that? | 17:25 |
| tzz | mgedmin: obviously, since I just said it. | 17:25 |
| mgedmin | it's good because it is open (when it is), portable, full of features | 17:25 |
| mgedmin | but it is lightyears behind PalmOS in polish, usability and responsiveness | 17:25 |
| Tak|work | I've never used a newton or a palm for any substantial length of time | 17:26 |
| mgedmin | I've used a palm (two palms) for 5 years | 17:26 |
| mgedmin | I don't use it any more, because the 770 is much better | 17:26 |
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| tzz | mgedmin: responsiveness in a multitasking preemptive OS is not easy. Considering all the N800 does vs. the essentially single-tasking PalmOS, I'm willing to live with a little less responsiveness. I used PalmOS for about 4 years, Palm V and then a smart phone. | 17:26 |
| mgedmin | feature-wise | 17:26 |
| mgedmin | I'm not saying it is easy | 17:27 |
| mgedmin | and I am also willing to live with the responsivity I get | 17:27 |
| tzz | polish: do you mean visual or functional? | 17:27 |
| mgedmin | because features are more important to me | 17:27 |
| mgedmin | polish: probably both, but mostly visual | 17:27 |
| mgedmin | e.g. lack of double-buffering that causes ugly rectangles to be drawn before a menu appears | 17:28 |
| tzz | I'd say visual polish is a manner of opinion. Mine is that ITOS 2007 looks much better than any PalmOS I ever used. | 17:28 |
| tzz | functional polish is decent, I agree it could be better but other than keyboard and copy/paste I'm pretty happy with it. | 17:29 |
| tzz | usability is very difficult to quantify. I'd like to see some usability studies instead of Newton and PalmOS comparisons. | 17:30 |
| mgedmin | I concede that it looks better | 17:30 |
| mgedmin | but it does not feel better | 17:30 |
| mgedmin | redrawing artifacts, sluggishness | 17:30 |
| Tak|work | plus...nokia loves triangles! | 17:30 |
| mgedmin | :) | 17:31 |
| tzz | heh | 17:31 |
| mgedmin | I've got nothing against triangles | 17:31 |
| mgedmin | but the menu scrolling method is plain silly | 17:31 |
| mgedmin | and scrollbars are too narrow for my fingernails | 17:31 |
| Tak|work | agreed | 17:31 |
| mgedmin | and the dividers, especially when they're right next to scrollbars | 17:31 |
| Tak|work | actually I can just scroll with my thumb on the n800 | 17:31 |
| Tak|work | even the narrowest scroolbars | 17:31 |
| mgedmin | I also can, but I don't hit them always | 17:31 |
| Tak|work | that's the thing I most hope for in 2007on770 | 17:32 |
| Tak|work | the improvements in thumbability | 17:32 |
| tzz | yeah, thumb sensitivity is not built into everything. I hope that changes, it's a neat effect in the start menus for instance. | 17:32 |
| tzz | although the small arrows do annoy me | 17:32 |
| mgedmin | one of the biggest annoyances is that I cannot change the volume/screen brightness when there's a info tip hanging | 17:33 |
| mgedmin | saying "loading web..." for example | 17:33 |
| tzz | anyhow, I was just trying to say ITOS 2007 is hardly mediocre. Unpolished, yes. But to me, it's better than the other handheld OSs out there. | 17:33 |
| mgedmin | I haven't seen that many other handheld OSes | 17:34 |
| mgedmin | but my Palm never used to crash and reboot as often as my 770 | 17:34 |
| mgedmin | perhaps my standards are unreasonably high | 17:34 |
| * Jaffa 's did | 17:34 | |
| mgedmin | Ubuntu is good, IT OS 2007 is mediocre | 17:35 |
| Jaffa | But my Psion very *rarely* did. | 17:35 |
| mgedmin | well, I suppose if I gave my Ubuntu 64 megs of ram and a 250 mhz cpu, it would also seem to be mediocre | 17:35 |
| mgedmin | if not outright unusable | 17:35 |
| Tak|work | yeah - I still have my old laptop, whose specs aren't much different than the 770 | 17:36 |
| Tak|work | hey - I should put maemo on it! | 17:36 |
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| tzz | I forgot to mention GEOS on the Nokia 9500 communicator as a comparison point :) | 17:39 |
| tzz | I owned that for 1.5 years | 17:39 |
| tzz | even wrote a "dope wars" game for it | 17:39 |
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| Jaffa | Tak|work: you could even put the shiny new scalable Hildon on it. Trouble is getting something usable from Scratchbox vs. the shiny screenshots the Nokia devs can produce | 17:42 |
| Tak|work | hah - it only goes to 800x600 anyway :-P | 17:42 |
| Jaffa | :) | 17:44 |
| garrett | Tak: wow, so the 770/N800 _almost_ matches your old laptop's screen res? (: | 17:46 |
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| Tak|work | I'd say it matches the resolution, just not the aspect ;-) | 17:46 |
| mgedmin | heh | 17:48 |
| mgedmin | my oldest laptop was 640x480 | 17:48 |
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| tigert | Tak|work: actually, | 17:51 |
| tigert | maemo wouldnt be too bad of an ui at all for a tablet laptop | 17:51 |
| tigert | ie, those with a swiweling touchscreen | 17:51 |
| tigert | stock gnome doesnt quite wrok on the tablet mode really | 17:51 |
| tigert | well, it works but its cumbersome | 17:52 |
| tigert | you dont really need draggable windows etc, you just want to focus on the apps themselves | 17:52 |
| kkito | hey i made a package that needs to copy some files to the mmc1, but it fails at install because the installer cannot set the chmod to the /media/mcc/dir because it is vfat. What must i to hack to solve it? | 17:52 |
| Tak|work | I agree - I don't see why it would be different on a bigger tablet than on the n800 | 17:52 |
| mgedmin | when the screen is big enough, draggable windows are useful | 17:53 |
| mgedmin | hm... | 17:54 |
| mgedmin | 12" tablet pc running maemo... | 17:54 |
| * mgedmin drools | 17:54 | |
| garrett | handwriting recognition on the n800 isn't as bad as people make it out to be, at least for me, and I did train it a little | 17:56 |
| garrett | but it could stand to use some improving | 17:56 |
| garrett | it would be nice if there was a note jotting app that could recognize it anywhere in context instead of having a little field | 17:57 |
| garrett | that would be totally a killer app | 17:57 |
| garrett | although xournal is pretty nice even w/o handwriting recognition | 17:57 |
| garrett | I just wish xournal could also do portrait mode too | 17:57 |
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| Jaffa | garrett: err, what'd be different about just writing at a different angle? | 17:58 |
| * Jaffa finds his scrawls a bit too big for xournal to be *really* useful :-( | 17:59 | |
| garrett | Jaffa: the scrollbar of the page, adding a new page, the toolbar | 17:59 |
| Jaffa | So I'm with mgedmin on a 12" tablet PC running Maemo. But faster. And more stable. | 17:59 |
| garrett | I'd like it to be a little like fbreader where I can just flip through new pages back and forth | 17:59 |
| Jaffa | garrett: toolbar becomes sidemounted in portrait mode - it's a feature ;-) | 17:59 |
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| garrett | heh | 17:59 |
| Jaffa | Point taken (and agreed) | 17:59 |
| mgedmin | ah, but the icons should be rotated :) | 18:00 |
| garrett | well, the lines and the scrollbar and page zoom all need tweaking for more proper portrait mode | 18:00 |
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| Jaffa | mgedmin: damnit :) | 18:06 |
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| osfameron | are the debian packages for scratchbox OK for ubuntu ? | 18:21 |
| osfameron | well, I guess I'll soon find out :-) | 18:23 |
| Tak|work | I used the scripts | 18:23 |
| Tak|work | and I'm on debian/sid | 18:23 |
| osfameron | which ones? | 18:23 |
| Tak|work | the ones at http://repository.maemo.org/stable/bora/ | 18:24 |
| osfameron | ah | 18:24 |
| alump | that also works fine with ubuntu 6.10 (i just installed today) | 18:24 |
| Tak|work | the instructions in INSTALL.txt got me set up without a hitch | 18:25 |
| osfameron | I looked at http://home.comcast.net/~3rdshift/articles/Nokia770/Maemo-Installation.html, went to scratchbox.org and added the relevant repo to synaptic | 18:25 |
| osfameron | well, I'll see if it works :-) | 18:25 |
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| kender | hello | 18:28 |
| tko | http://community.livejournal.com/lbello_english/3991.html :) | 18:31 |
| * mgedmin grep '^.tch$' /usr/share/dict/words | 18:33 | |
| mgedmin | hehe | 18:33 |
| kender | :) | 18:33 |
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| * Tak|work buys a vowel | 18:33 | |
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| mgedmin | on december 10 someone on our local linux mailing list said that etch will be released "very soon" | 18:37 |
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| mgedmin | my reaction was "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA" | 18:37 |
| Tak|work | is the movie player fixed in the latest n800 image? | 18:38 |
| c0ffee | the heise computer journal for this month contains a story "edge is released (probably)" | 18:38 |
| c0ffee | etch even | 18:38 |
| Tak|work | (fixed as in, doesn't hang after a few minutes) | 18:38 |
| bedboi | mgedmin: well "very soon" in debian's jargon means "2 years" | 18:41 |
| bedboi | debian developers use geological eras as timescales. | 18:42 |
| bedboi | so, 2 years is really soon | 18:42 |
| everaldo | MDK, Hi, I have a mono devkit done, but I need your help to clear some doubts | 18:43 |
| Jaffa | Tak|work: no | 18:43 |
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| Tak|work | :-( | 18:44 |
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| vol | anyone playing with mplayer on the n800? | 18:46 |
| vol | Tak|work: im not too sure about the built in player since most of my videos are not in a supported format | 18:47 |
| Tak|work | I'm talking about movies that were specifically transcoded for the 770 | 18:48 |
| Molagi | mplayer works perfectly on my n800 but i still use the standard media player, it seems a lot more stable | 18:48 |
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| vol | Molagi: do you use the default settings that came with the package? | 18:49 |
| Molagi | yeah | 18:49 |
| osfameron | right, now I have scratchbox installed | 18:49 |
| osfameron | woot | 18:49 |
| vol | i tried the default settings but in high motion scenes it skips back and forth a few frames at a time | 18:50 |
| osfameron | ah, now I need to isntall maemo sdk | 18:50 |
| vol | like its stuttering | 18:50 |
| Molagi | yeah i had that problem also with the older version of mplayer | 18:51 |
| MDK | everaldo: hey | 18:51 |
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| vol | hm, im running the newest version and i still have that problem | 18:52 |
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| vol | i ran it with -ao esd -ac ffmp3 and i dont get the stuttering, it just drops more frames | 18:52 |
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| osfameron | I just tryied apt-get update on my sbox-SDK_ARMEL | 18:57 |
| osfameron | and it's telling my SBOX_CPUTRANSPARENCY_METHOD not set | 18:57 |
| osfameron | I may have unset the variables while trying to select the ARMEL target? | 18:58 |
| mgedmin | don't think so | 18:58 |
| mgedmin | how did you create the target? | 18:58 |
| osfameron | I used the script | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | did you run the maemo installer scri... | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | ok | 18:59 |
| everaldo | MDK, The devkit-(version) must be package version or scratchbox version? | 18:59 |
| mgedmin | hmm | 18:59 |
| osfameron | But then I tried to select the ARMEL target to run apt-get stuff as suggested in INSTALL.txt | 18:59 |
| osfameron | only instead of choosing Select... | 18:59 |
| osfameron | I chose Setup... and I may have unset some options | 18:59 |
| osfameron | should I rerun the script? | 18:59 |
| MDK | everaldo: package version I guess | 19:00 |
| MDK | everaldo: I mean, devkits are installed externally | 19:00 |
| MDK | so debian package here is actually optional | 19:00 |
| everaldo | MDK, well, I will include gtk-sharp in devkiy | 19:00 |
| MDK | hmm | 19:00 |
| everaldo | MDK, and search for a place to upload | 19:00 |
| keesj | devkiy? | 19:01 |
| everaldo | devkit | 19:01 |
| everaldo | :) | 19:01 |
| MDK | you need to build gtk-sharp packages anyways for the device, right? | 19:01 |
| everaldo | yes | 19:01 |
| everaldo | devkit can include more than one package | 19:02 |
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| everaldo | MDK, I think (not sure) that in sb-mono-devkit we can have mono,gtk-sharp and maemo-sharp | 19:02 |
| Tak|work | osfameron: not sure what the best solution would be | 19:03 |
| Tak|work | if it was me, I'd probably rm the scratchbox and redo, but that may be overkill | 19:03 |
| osfameron | Tak|work: I think it's just that I've crapped on the settings... I'll grep the script and see if it has any obvious commands | 19:03 |
| MDK | everaldo: well, my only concern is -- since you need to maintain the binary-indep gtk-sharp, maemo-sharp packages... | 19:04 |
| MDK | isn't it better to keep it separated? | 19:04 |
| MDK | in future, you'd need to update only in one place | 19:04 |
| osfameron | aha, I can rerun the sdk installer with -y to refresh the targets | 19:05 |
| MDK | but this just my *first thought* | 19:05 |
| everaldo | MDK, you mean have mono as devkit and gtk-sharp and maemo-sharp as .deb packages? | 19:05 |
| MDK | everaldo: yep | 19:06 |
| MDK | packages as debian-packages for device/sbox | 19:06 |
| MDK | since the devkit is not a package essentially | 19:07 |
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| everaldo | MDK, looks a nice solution | 19:07 |
| Tak|work | why not all packages as .debs? | 19:07 |
| Tak|work | mono-runtime, mono-devkit, mono-gtk-cil, mono-maemo-cil ? | 19:07 |
| everaldo | Because you need devkit to compile the packages | 19:07 |
| everaldo | we will have mono packages | 19:08 |
| everaldo | for use in device | 19:08 |
| everaldo | In my concern devkit is to be used only for development purposes | 19:09 |
| MDK | everaldo: exactly | 19:09 |
| MDK | Tak|work: you can't run mono vm inside the arm target | 19:09 |
| Tak|work | eek | 19:10 |
| MDK | Tak|work: it exposes the quemu bugs | 19:10 |
| MDK | *qemu | 19:10 |
| MDK | Tak|work: some mono stuff requires building native code (.c glue layer) along with the arch-independant code | 19:10 |
| Tak|work | yeah, I know | 19:10 |
| Tak|work | I have lived the nightmare that is mono devel on win32 | 19:11 |
| MDK | so you need some way to run the monovm in the arm target | 19:11 |
| MDK | Tak|work: is it? | 19:11 |
| everaldo | well, my monovm works fine under win32 | 19:11 |
| MDK | running mono stuff seems to be trivial these days on win32 | 19:11 |
| everaldo | yes... exactly | 19:11 |
| MDK | but I haven't tried development really | 19:12 |
| Tak|work | I ported MD | 19:12 |
| osfameron | yay! reinstalling the targets works fine | 19:12 |
| MDK | Tak|work: that explains a lot | 19:12 |
| everaldo | about devkit, I will talk with miguel to have a place to upload it | 19:12 |
| MDK | ;) | 19:12 |
| MDK | we have some shared space on maemo, don't we? | 19:13 |
| everaldo | and on weekend I will work in deb packages | 19:13 |
| everaldo | Have? | 19:13 |
| Tak|work | which really wasn't that much work, but setting up dev environs and building svn checkouts of mono,gtk#,etc with cygwin was...tedious | 19:13 |
| maddler | MDK, everald... if you need Ican give some space... | 19:13 |
| MDK | everaldo: you might start a garage project | 19:14 |
| MDK | you can upload stuff easily there | 19:14 |
| everaldo | Tak|work, very slow but works fine these days | 19:14 |
| everaldo | MDK, I will start it | 19:14 |
| everaldo | MDK, I think that I have a garage login | 19:14 |
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| everaldo | I also setup my blog finally, maybe create a category maemo will be fine | 19:15 |
| Tak|work | yeah, everything worked ok, but it was very slow, and like any kind of complex software, particularly cross-platform, it had its gotchas | 19:15 |
| osfameron | yay! I have a Xephyr | 19:16 |
| MDK | everaldo: sure, we can aggregate it on planet maemo | 19:18 |
| osfameron | what's the best docs available for offline reading for startup with maemo dev? | 19:19 |
| Tak|work | the tutorial's pretty good | 19:19 |
| osfameron | is that installed by the script? | 19:19 |
| keesj | what would be a good maemo debian section for sdk tools like the swig? | 19:19 |
| Tak|work | http://maemo.org/platform/docs/howtos/Maemo_tutorial_bora.html | 19:20 |
| osfameron | Tak|work: thanks | 19:20 |
| Tak|work | you could install it pretty easily with wget ;-) | 19:20 |
| Jaffa | keesj: development - definitely not "user/". Don't think it matters too much | 19:20 |
| Jaffa | keesj: if you're looking at the patch, please assign the issue to yourself as soon as you pick it up: that'll prevent duplication | 19:21 |
| keesj | we need some form of workflow | 19:21 |
| osfameron | Tak|work: harr! annoyingly I'm on irc on my win machine via putty | 19:23 |
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| Tak|work | anybody in an environment where they use BlueSocket ? | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | for some reason I misread that as "BlueSock" | 19:27 |
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| mgedmin | and started wondering about the colour of my socks | 19:27 |
| Tak|work | heh | 19:28 |
| Tak|work | bluesocket is this weird proprietary vpn thing | 19:28 |
| Jaffa | keesj: proposed workflow sent to mailing list | 19:29 |
| Jaffa | keesj: comments welcome | 19:29 |
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| kender | Jaffa, keesj does MUD work with svn ? | 19:31 |
| keesj | kender: in what way? | 19:32 |
| kender | keesj, they don't make "releases", so there is no tar.bz2 or nothing else, so you have to get the sources from the svn | 19:32 |
| slomo | MDK: just curious but why don't you take the debian mono package? should work fine with a few minor adjustments | 19:33 |
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| Jaffa | kender: correct, you need to get mud from svn - and keep it regularly up-to-date at the moment. There is no plan for file releases at any point as it doesn't make sense within the aims of the project. | 19:36 |
| kender | Jaffa, no, that's no my question, hehe, sorry my english :( | 19:36 |
| MDK | slomo: frankly, I don't know | 19:37 |
| kender | I'm porting an app (shell-fm), that the only way to get the sources is via svn | 19:37 |
| Jaffa | kender: yes, there's a <fetch type="command"> where you can specify the comman dto get the sources, e.g. svn export. | 19:37 |
| kender | ahh | 19:37 |
| kender | nice | 19:37 |
| kender | hehe | 19:37 |
| kender | that was my question | 19:37 |
| kender | thanks | 19:37 |
| Jaffa | http://mud-builder.garage.maemo.org/docs/index.php?id=packageformat#fetch - see "command" heading | 19:37 |
| MDK | slomo: I'm not a debian expert, I just happily passed the ball ;) | 19:38 |
| kender | Jaffa, thanks | 19:38 |
| slomo | MDK: well, i'm maintaining the package with some other's in debian ;) if you have questions... but before i finally have my n800 and finished my next exams i won't try it myself ;) | 19:38 |
| maddler | later folks... | 19:39 |
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| tigert | slomo: I think the more collaboration with debian and other projects there is, the better | 20:02 |
| tigert | if the package works okay, of course we should use it | 20:02 |
| slomo | tigert: if not it should be made to work ok imho ;) | 20:02 |
| disq | gah. i need some x signalling tips | 20:05 |
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| disq | or a fresh approach | 20:06 |
| disq | heh | 20:06 |
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| lasala | hmmmm... has anyone tried Silica yet ? | 20:09 |
| kender | keesj, no answer from garage, there is it? | 20:10 |
| konfoo | what the rebranded 770 with a python app and 3 buttons? | 20:10 |
| konfoo | what kind of idiot would pay 3600.... nevermind | 20:11 |
| lasala | yep that one | 20:11 |
| MDK | Silica? | 20:11 |
| mgedmin | $1200 per button | 20:11 |
| konfoo | sucker.born.every.minute. | 20:11 |
| lasala | it should be illegal to charge that much money for an open source app | 20:11 |
| konfoo | well its not illegal | 20:11 |
| konfoo | it should be illegal to be so clueless as to actually purchase one :) | 20:12 |
| JussiP | An idiot and his money are soon parted. | 20:12 |
| konfoo | indeed | 20:12 |
| mgedmin | make money fast: take a device that costs $350 and sell it to the government or the army for $3600 | 20:12 |
| JussiP | You need camo paint for army. That's really expensive, you know. | 20:12 |
| konfoo | mgedmin: provided you can fenagle the bidding process, yes | 20:13 |
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| Pio | its not very useful without packet injection, too | 20:13 |
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| Pio | penetration testing my foot | 20:13 |
| konfoo | you could buy a dual core laptop and burn a dozen pentest livecds for a fraction of that price | 20:13 |
| MDK | that's scary stuff | 20:13 |
| mgedmin | Pio: try an axe | 20:14 |
| konfoo | did you guys see the screenshots of their app? one still has a link to gazpacho right next to their 'app' | 20:14 |
| konfoo | i couldnt stop laffing | 20:14 |
| mgedmin | if you really want to pentest your foot | 20:14 |
| MDK | unfortunately, I've seen this rule elsewhere | 20:14 |
| Pio | you can get a hell of an axe for 3 grand | 20:14 |
| MDK | like -- fo rgovernment/army/corporations, if a product is not expensive enough -- it's not proffessional | 20:14 |
| lasala | under GPL agreement the source code of this app has to me made available to the public i think | 20:14 |
| MDK | it's like this famous Spolsky's story | 20:14 |
| konfoo | lasala: yeah good luck with that | 20:15 |
| MDK | he started selling more of his product when he increased the price | 20:15 |
| Jaffa | lasala: a) how do you know it's a GPL app? b) if it were they have to make it available to anyone with the binary. Initially, that'll be only people they've sold it to. | 20:15 |
| tzz | lasala: it's not GPL, I'm sure, the guy was in #maemo a week ago or so | 20:16 |
| Jaffa | Hometime. | 20:17 |
| konfoo | http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12691_22-53766-5.html for a laugh at silica | 20:17 |
| lasala | well it uses canvas.. i thought it was under GPL | 20:17 |
| konfoo | http://content.zdnet.com/2346-12691_22-53766-6.html my favorite | 20:18 |
| mgedmin | I especially like the squished aspect ratio of those screenshots | 20:18 |
| konfoo | heh nod | 20:18 |
| * konfoo shakes his head in disgust | 20:18 | |
| tzz | konfoo: why are you laughing at them? they are obviously in a niche that has a high profit margin, I've seen lots of such products at more exorbitant prices. | 20:19 |
| konfoo | because of the sheer amateur hour approach | 20:19 |
| tzz | konfoo: think about how much it costs to pay developers, marketing, etc. for a startup also | 20:19 |
| tzz | konfoo: as opposed to what on the N800? The Gizmo project? | 20:20 |
| konfoo | tzz: maybe i have higher standards | 20:20 |
| MDK | it's unfair | 20:20 |
| konfoo | quite frankly i would be embarassed to sell something like this | 20:20 |
| MDK | it might be legal, but it's unfair | 20:20 |
| tzz | konfoo: have you written something better? That made money? | 20:21 |
| konfoo | tzz: yes. chip on your shoulder? | 20:21 |
| konfoo | are you associated with silica? | 20:21 |
| keesj | konfoo: I like that the first screen shot shows the gazpacho interface builder :p | 20:22 |
| tzz | konfoo: no | 20:22 |
| tzz | nice one though | 20:22 |
| konfoo | keesj: my point exactly :) | 20:22 |
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| tzz | "he doesn't agree with me, he must work for them!" | 20:22 |
| konfoo | youre the one bitching at me, not the other way around | 20:22 |
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| tzz | konfoo: I'm not bitching, read what I said. I am talking about the realities of the startup business. You were the one ridiculing a functional product because it doesn't look great. | 20:25 |
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| bedboi | anyone lives in london? | 20:27 |
| bedboi | i have some questions :) | 20:27 |
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| konfoo | tzz: i am quite familiar with the realities of doing business. a bad business plan is not an excuse for tacky overpriced product | 20:29 |
| konfoo | if they want to do business that way then good luck to them. | 20:30 |
| tigert | well, the market tells what is a good price | 20:31 |
| konfoo | exactly | 20:31 |
| konfoo | their only advantage in selling that is that their product can appear as a line item on government purchase orders | 20:33 |
| konfoo | which the govt. bean counters love | 20:33 |
| thomasvs | MDK: why is it unfair ? | 20:36 |
| tigert | MDK: it's like Coke | 20:37 |
| mgedmin | swindling usually is unfair | 20:38 |
| tigert | MDK: the legend says at one point they tried to sell it as syrup to restaurants with little success. then they got the idea of bottling it and selling it with 10x the price | 20:38 |
| konfoo | and coke used to contain cocaine | 20:39 |
| [mbm] | they still sel coke as sryup, look at all the soda fountains | 20:39 |
| c0ffee | that's why it's called coca cola | 20:39 |
| mgedmin | IIRC the cocaine bit is an urban legend | 20:40 |
| [mbm] | mgedmin: pretty much | 20:40 |
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| konfoo | Coke had cocaine in it long ago; it is flavored with an extract | 20:41 |
| konfoo | from the coca leaf (the plant from which cocaine is extracted). | 20:41 |
| konfoo | Back a long time ago cocaine was being touted as "the new aspirin" | 20:41 |
| konfoo | and was available from the corner drug store, just like aspirin. | 20:41 |
| konfoo | Then people started getting addicted to it, it was made | 20:41 |
| konfoo | illegal in the US, and Coke susbtiuted caffeine for the cocaine to | 20:41 |
| konfoo | give the drink a "lift" without the addiction...but the coca leaf | 20:41 |
| konfoo | extract is still used in Coke as far as I know. | 20:41 |
| [mbm] | it used some of the same ingredients as cocaine but it's not like saying coke is bottled cocaine | 20:42 |
| mgedmin | hmm... http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_033.html | 20:42 |
| konfoo | everything had coke in it at the turn of the century | 20:43 |
| konfoo | 'tonics' were a big scam | 20:43 |
| [mbm] | heh, there was an interesting special on the history channel last week talking about coke/pepsi and they covered the whole new-coke thing | 20:43 |
| konfoo | it all died when the FDA forced tonic manufacturers to list their ingredients on the bottles | 20:43 |
| konfoo | which they did cause people were becoming addicts left right and center | 20:44 |
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| Disconnect | konfoo: you have several events mixed together. the addict problem was managed by making some drugs illegal (and some illegal without medical supervision - prescriptions..) the tonics mostly went out because the fda got oversight over claims of health/medicinal benefits and the ingredients labeling was a whole other issue entirely | 20:45 |
| Disconnect | "managed" i should say, but anyway.. | 20:45 |
| [mbm] | tonics were whatever you could bottle and were often a mix of garbage and poisons | 20:46 |
| * [mbm] wonders what was a bigger screwup, new coke or clear pepsi | 20:53 | |
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| cesman | new coke | 20:56 |
| Disconnect | yah | 20:56 |
| Disconnect | i kinda liked clear pepsi. | 20:56 |
| Disconnect | didn't cry when it went away, but.. | 20:56 |
| [mbm] | well, new coke sort of made sense; it was at a time when they were losing market share to pepsi because people liked the sweetness of pepsi better in a one sip taste test | 20:57 |
| MDK | thomasvs: it's unfair, because you're standing on the shoulders of giants, yet you pretend you created the value yourself | 20:59 |
| MDK | besides, it's damaging the market | 20:59 |
| MDK | it's like packing ubuntu free cd's in a nice box & shrink-wrap, and selling at 400$ | 21:00 |
| * [mbm] finds it funny that converting back to coke classic caused an upswell of popularity that they wouldn't have had otherwise | 21:00 | |
| [mbm] | leading some to believe the whole thing was a marketing scam | 21:00 |
| [mbm] | same can't be said about crystal pepsi | 21:00 |
| thomasvs | MDK: right, but anyone can do the same for 50$ | 21:02 |
| tzz | mdk: this is called the "strawman" argument. It's very easy to argue against a $400 package. | 21:02 |
| tzz | mdk: what do you think about $20 Ubuntu with support? | 21:02 |
| MDK | tzz: the strawman is on your side | 21:03 |
| tzz | huh? | 21:03 |
| MDK | as you're trying to generalize the thing to the point were discussion is impossible | 21:03 |
| MDK | we're not talking here about 20$ + support | 21:04 |
| MDK | we're talking about an extreme case | 21:04 |
| MDK | I don't know were 'fair' ends and 'unfair' starts when dealing with open-source | 21:05 |
| MDK | I don't even try to know | 21:05 |
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| MDK | but in this particular case -- it's unfair in my understanding | 21:05 |
| thomasvs | I think it's reasonably practically defined by "the point where someone else can make money undercutting you" | 21:05 |
| tzz | mdk: what case is unfair? Can you be specific? | 21:06 |
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| MDK | tzz: 3600$ for this device | 21:07 |
| tzz | if we're talking about commercial software, it's pretty clear to me you can't compare it with Ubuntu, which is 100% free | 21:08 |
| thomasvs | tzz: ubuntu is 99% free :) | 21:08 |
| MDK | BTW, on a totally unrelated note -- from what I know, nokia has never explicitly allowed this | 21:08 |
| MDK | what might be bad even | 21:08 |
| thomasvs | MDK: it looks like it would be easy to just take hildon, slap a small gazpacho frontend to metasploit, and give away the app as a competitor | 21:08 |
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| thomasvs | MDK: probably the best way to address this company if you feel it's unfair | 21:09 |
| MDK | thomasvs: true | 21:09 |
| MDK | thomasvs: that's why I'm not advocating t ochase them, bring them down, boycot them or sue them | 21:09 |
| MDK | but still I think it's unfair ;) | 21:09 |
| MDK | but again, it's probbably not legal even | 21:10 |
| thomasvs | why not legal ? | 21:10 |
| thomasvs | are they using their own hardware ? | 21:10 |
| MDK | the rootfs license doesn't allow reselling | 21:10 |
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| MDK | there was a discussion about this on the ml some time ago | 21:10 |
| mgedmin | MDK: does that mean that one cannot sell his 770 on ebay? | 21:11 |
| mgedmin | that's nuts! | 21:11 |
| MDK | mgedmin: wtf are you talking about? | 21:11 |
| mgedmin | selling the nokia 770 with extra software | 21:11 |
| mgedmin | "the rootfs license doesn't allow reselling" | 21:12 |
| MDK | there is a difference between selling your device on ebay, and being a company that sells a product that's based on another product -- rebranding it on the ago | 21:13 |
| MDK | similarly, samsung can't sell nokia phones with extra software on it | 21:13 |
| MDK | but I'm not a lawyer, the rootfs licensing needs to be sorted out anyways | 21:14 |
| MDK | personally I'd like it to be possible so that many variants of the device can be created | 21:15 |
| MDK | with many variants the 'fair' thing will kick in automatically | 21:15 |
| thomasvs | MDK: yeah, exactly | 21:17 |
| mgedmin | what exactly is that difference? | 21:17 |
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| thomasvs | mgedmin: you don't see the difference between a user selling a used device and a company selling lots of brand new devices ? | 21:18 |
| thomasvs | mgedmin: I have this car I'd like you to sell you then | 21:18 |
| thomasvs | runs great, no mileage, never used | 21:18 |
| mgedmin | :) | 21:18 |
| mgedmin | one careful owner who was an old lady | 21:18 |
| mgedmin | and never drove anywhere | 21:18 |
| tigert | its like I bought powerbooks, installed my own wallpaper and engraved "TigBook" on them | 21:19 |
| tigert | and sold them, apple wouldnt like that | 21:19 |
| thomasvs | tigert: oh, awesome | 21:19 |
| thomasvs | tigert: I would so pay double for that if the wallpaper was nice | 21:19 |
| tigert | even though it would cause great joy and happiness around | 21:19 |
| mgedmin | laser etching! | 21:19 |
| tigert | but steve wouldnt smile | 21:19 |
| mgedmin | still, my question was more about the legal mechanism that distinguishes one from the other | 21:20 |
| mgedmin | selling used (or unopened) device on ebay | 21:20 |
| pvanhoof | so, | 21:20 |
| mgedmin | versus rebranding and selling without telling anyone it is based on another company's product | 21:20 |
| pvanhoof | has anyone here tested tinymails' IDLE support ? | 21:20 |
| mgedmin | that wouldn't be a trademark violation, I think | 21:20 |
| pvanhoof | I trying to find users who have been trying it :) | 21:20 |
| pvanhoof | as it's going to be impossible for me to be testing with all existing imap servers | 21:21 |
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| tigert | pvanhoof: I hate email | 21:22 |
| disq | can i put different repo_deb entries to a .install file? | 21:23 |
| pvanhoof | tigert, :) | 21:23 |
| tigert | :) | 21:23 |
| disq | i mean, some of the components are in another repo, etc | 21:23 |
| pvanhoof | you are always in for a new twist to something, aren't you tigert ? ;) | 21:23 |
| tigert | disq: read the spec? | 21:23 |
| disq | i could only find the HOWTO on maemo.org, that's all i got | 21:23 |
| mgedmin | that's the spec :) | 21:23 |
| disq | ok, gotta ask ferenc :) | 21:24 |
| tigert | https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/osso-application-installer/doc/repository.txt | 21:24 |
| tigert | thats the same thing I guess | 21:24 |
| Tak|work | damn, I missed all the good arguments | 21:24 |
| tigert | disq: but try? | 21:24 |
| MDK | mgedmin: /ww 47 | 21:25 |
| keesj | tigert I was on the wmii irc yesterday,it was really funny to hear what they hate. | 21:25 |
| MDK | oh, sorry | 21:25 |
| mgedmin | is that a cipher? :) | 21:26 |
| keesj | you almost get banned if you talk about 3d | 21:26 |
| MDK | mgedmin: I'm not a lawyer. But there is a difference. | 21:26 |
| tigert | sounds like irssi alias for window manipulation | 21:26 |
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| MDK | tigert: i learn from the masters | 21:26 |
| MDK | btw, 47 irsssi windows... | 21:27 |
| mgedmin | my quota of console-mode applications is filled with vim and mutt | 21:27 |
| mgedmin | I could never manage to learn BitchX or irssi | 21:27 |
| disq | yeah gotta try i guess | 21:27 |
| disq | i've been trying stuff this whole day anyways. | 21:27 |
| tigert | hmm | 21:27 |
| tigert | I have 69 | 21:27 |
| mgedmin | looks like .install files can have only one repo | 21:27 |
| Tak|work | the latest version of bitchx broke all my aliases and I haven't bothered to fix them | 21:28 |
| mgedmin | a bit of a shame | 21:28 |
| Tak|work | you can have one repo for bora and one for pre-bora | 21:28 |
| tigert | I used bitchx for a year or so in 1996 or such | 21:28 |
| tigert | but it was embarassing | 21:28 |
| disq | i also need a way to detect the version of the running maemo environment, my armel2.2 target somehow doesn't get past configure now | 21:28 |
| Fatal | go.pl is nice when you start to get lost with your windows in irssi, i just type /go mae press tab and it will complete to all matching windows i have open with 'mae' | 21:28 |
| tigert | I always ended kickbanning and shitlisting most of my friends without realizing why :) | 21:28 |
| Tak|work | lol | 21:29 |
| tigert | because it had all those automated things to eliminate flooders etc :) | 21:29 |
| tigert | and I didnt know how to turn them off :) | 21:29 |
| tigert | thus I switched to EPIC | 21:29 |
| tigert | which I used until about, hm 3 years ago? | 21:29 |
| tigert | when I switched to irssi | 21:29 |
| Tak|work | disq: do they have different versions of hildon libs maybe? | 21:29 |
| tigert | it was a big mental change, epic had split windows | 21:29 |
| tigert | but I learned to love the irssi way | 21:29 |
| disq | Tak|work: it's a stupid error about intltool :) | 21:30 |
| tigert | and I have too many windows anyway to have them in one split screen | 21:30 |
| Tak|work | well - I meant that as a way to differentiate them scriptically | 21:30 |
| disq | ah. nah, i want runtime | 21:30 |
| Tak|work | does 2.2 sbox have autotools 1.9? | 21:30 |
| disq | checking for XML::Parser... configure: error: XML::Parser perl module is required for intltool | 21:31 |
| disq | as soon as i saw "perl" there i just gave up | 21:31 |
| Tak|work | is libxml-parser-perl installed? | 21:31 |
| MDK | tigert: in '96 I was using mirc ;) | 21:32 |
| disq | yeah, it is | 21:32 |
| Tak|work | I switched to xchat now that I'm so rarely on a machine sans X | 21:32 |
| Tak|work | hm | 21:32 |
| tigert | MDK: heh | 21:33 |
| tigert | MDK: I used window 3.11 | 21:33 |
| tigert | I bought win95 | 21:33 |
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| tigert | but never really used it | 21:33 |
| tigert | since I then had linux | 21:33 |
| tigert | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdBqJSdsbLo | 21:33 |
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| Tak|work | man - I wish I'd known about linux in 1995 | 21:34 |
| tigert | I started my CS studies then | 21:34 |
| tigert | found irc, html, web and Gimp! | 21:35 |
| Tak|work | yeah, not until 98 for me | 21:35 |
| tigert | and it's been a ride since then | 21:35 |
| Tak|work | no kidding | 21:35 |
| tigert | Gimp used Motif | 21:35 |
| tigert | but I did some web stuff with it | 21:35 |
| tigert | no layers | 21:35 |
| tigert | but it had this "composition" plugin set | 21:35 |
| tigert | ie, basically layer modes like "multiply" etc | 21:35 |
| tigert | so one could do drop shadows etc stuff by thinking ahead and planning nicely | 21:36 |
| konfoo | i cant even remember what i used before gimp | 21:36 |
| konfoo | i vaguely remember some motif apps on hpux | 21:37 |
| tigert | http://www.valdyas.org/~boud/images/gimp.png | 21:37 |
| tigert | so many dialogs! | 21:37 |
| tigert | but it was solid gold | 21:37 |
| konfoo | and wavefront composer | 21:37 |
| tigert | I couldnt afford paint shop pro | 21:37 |
| konfoo | heh | 21:37 |
| tigert | or photoshop | 21:37 |
| tigert | it was awesome | 21:37 |
| tigert | to have a FREE tool! | 21:37 |
| tigert | and then I learned to know the people who were hacking it | 21:38 |
| tigert | totally new idea | 21:38 |
| mgedmin | it looks so strange... | 21:38 |
| tigert | it was strange | 21:38 |
| * mgedmin first got linux in 1997 | 21:39 | |
| mgedmin | I remember playing with the shell in the slackware boot/root floppies one night | 21:39 |
| mgedmin | didn't have the rest of the floppy images yet | 21:39 |
| tigert | heh | 21:39 |
| tigert | "Pete's GTK is a very nice toolkit, one which could probably replace the horrible interface of xfig without too much difficulty. This project could get you a reasonable ammount of internet-freeware fame." | 21:39 |
| garrett | tigert: heh, yeah, I started CS stuff in '95 and found irc, html, web, and Gimp too | 21:40 |
| tigert | who knew?? | 21:40 |
| garrett | and I agree about the trip from then to now too (; | 21:40 |
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| konfoo | i went ibm s36 -> minix -> linux.. cant remember.. kernel 0.9 or something | 21:40 |
| * tigert wonders where S & P are these days | 21:41 | |
| garrett | good question | 21:41 |
| tigert | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_W._Kimball | 21:41 |
| tigert | ym | 21:41 |
| tigert | um | 21:41 |
| tigert | not that one :D | 21:41 |
| tigert | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_Kimball < this one | 21:42 |
| hub | wow, the gimp in motif? | 21:42 |
| keesj | the posted gimp image is from 2005 | 21:42 |
| garrett | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencer_Kimball <- yeah | 21:42 |
| tigert | keesj: yea it is a new pic | 21:42 |
| tigert | but its the old codebase | 21:42 |
| tigert | it runs fine on lesstiff | 21:42 |
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| tigert | I think its in gimp.org ftp still | 21:42 |
| hub | I forgot that era | 21:42 |
| hub | like in 1996? | 21:42 |
| tigert | hub: :) | 21:42 |
| konfoo | fsp what? | 21:42 |
| garrett | heh, he works for Google now | 21:42 |
| tigert | garrett: wow | 21:43 |
| hub | garrett: like lot of people | 21:43 |
| garrett | yeah | 21:43 |
| hub | to bad they require people to move to bushistan | 21:43 |
| tigert | I didnt know spencer was the gnutella author too | 21:43 |
| hub | too bad for them | 21:43 |
| garrett | hmm? | 21:43 |
| tigert | hub: better than Helsinski? | 21:43 |
| Tak|work | lol hub | 21:43 |
| garrett | he works for Google in NY | 21:43 |
| tigert | or worse? | 21:43 |
| tigert | there is google office here too apparently | 21:43 |
| tigert | sales only though I guess | 21:44 |
| tigert | or whatever | 21:44 |
| garrett | there's a google office down the street a block or so from here | 21:44 |
| Fatal | wth. garrett | 21:44 |
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| hub | tigert: there is an office on Toronto. but no egineering | 21:44 |
| garrett | Fatal: hmm? | 21:44 |
| hub | tigert: in Europe you have Dublin and Zurich | 21:44 |
| Fatal | please hold, probing memory | 21:44 |
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| hub | tigert: for Dublin you probably don't need any visa | 21:45 |
| tigert | yea | 21:45 |
| tigert | its not like I am much interested at this point :) | 21:45 |
| tigert | lots of fun stuff at Nokia | 21:45 |
| tigert | to see how we can work with the community and such | 21:45 |
| hub | tigert: unlike myself | 21:45 |
| tigert | hub: come here :) | 21:45 |
| hub | tigert: not possible | 21:45 |
| konfoo | theres a new google office in irvine here i see | 21:46 |
| tigert | though we have NDA's and that crap, but its hard to avoid them anywhere | 21:46 |
| Tak|work | are there any nokia offices in australia? | 21:46 |
| myren | oohh | 21:46 |
| myren | konfoo, any idea what the irvine office's main topics are? | 21:46 |
| Tak|work | (like, interesting corporate stuff, not resellers) | 21:46 |
| Fatal | garrett: nm, just had the sinking feeling i was hanging around some channel with you and a bunch of people a few years back, but i still got a high fever and can't really place it anyho | 21:46 |
| garrett | Fatal: very possible | 21:47 |
| Fatal | garrett: used to go under different nick? | 21:47 |
| keesj | tigert: It must be hard sometimes the NDA stuff, or people blaming the wrong guys stuff like that | 21:47 |
| konfoo | myren: not really.. one of my old colleagues is a hr manager there now i think | 21:47 |
| garrett | Fatal: I pretty much have used garrett for years | 21:47 |
| konfoo | they are hiring, i noticed | 21:47 |
| Fatal | garrett: must been the channel i'm pondering about then | 21:48 |
| hub | tigert: you know when I see how hard it is for Nokia to provide people in Canada with a way to use the discount, I'm thrilled to go work there. But that is just me. maybe I just need to find a reason | 21:48 |
| keesj | I will start my c/c++ based job next month , I am very very happy | 21:48 |
| tigert | hub: I am ashamed of the nokia store stuff | 21:48 |
| tigert | and how people handle the support stuff as well as the codes :( | 21:48 |
| garrett | Fatal: was involved in linux.com way back in the day, been in #gimp and #gnome for many years, lots of other channels | 21:48 |
| garrett | tigert: oh man, the store stuff still is giving me issues | 21:49 |
| Fatal | garrett: mmm, it wasn't on those channels | 21:49 |
| hub | tigert: store.nokia.ca is down for 2 weeks now. that juste make things even more funny | 21:49 |
| hub | garrett: at least you can order | 21:49 |
| tigert | Fatal: garrett was always garrett | 21:49 |
| hub | garrett: I'm uttely fucked | 21:49 |
| tigert | garrett: you got the device though? | 21:49 |
| garrett | Fatal: it could've been something else, but those are the most obvious ones I can think of | 21:49 |
| garrett | hub: oh man | 21:49 |
| keesj | this was my job http://exmachina.nl/jobs.php | 21:49 |
| garrett | tigert: yeah, but they don't think I did sort of | 21:49 |
| tigert | hub: jimmac cannot order either, no shipping to .cz :( | 21:49 |
| hub | tigert: world globalization is clearly not for consumers | 21:50 |
| Tak|work | keesj: doesn't look bad | 21:50 |
| Fatal | garrett: was a wee bit more obscure, think a channel of friends only | 21:50 |
| garrett | could be | 21:50 |
| garrett | I'm in a few of those, and have been in a few others in the past too | 21:50 |
| tigert | hub: yeah | 21:50 |
| hub | tigert: all in all, if I move back to Europe, it is back home | 21:50 |
| garrett | was it with Trae, aka occy, aka OctobrX? (: | 21:50 |
| tigert | hub: you'd wonder how amazon.com does it? :) | 21:50 |
| Fatal | yeah | 21:50 |
| keesj | It was fun , but I needed more "hard-core" programming | 21:50 |
| hub | tigert: not that I don't want to go to finland | 21:50 |
| garrett | ok, then it is very, very possible then | 21:51 |
| tigert | I was thinking of Occy as well | 21:51 |
| hub | tigert: tigerdirect.ca sell them | 21:51 |
| tigert | hub: with GSM! | 21:51 |
| tigert | :) | 21:51 |
| hub | tigert: a coworker of mine got one before I got the discount | 21:51 |
| garrett | Fatal: like #themes.org or something, or hmm... what was a name of one of those channels from way back? d: | 21:51 |
| Fatal | garrett: naaah, nothing to do with the activities of you guys iirc | 21:52 |
| Fatal | then again, high fever atm, might be mistakenn | 21:52 |
| garrett | yeah, understand | 21:52 |
| garrett | hope you get better soon | 21:52 |
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| garrett | I remember a nick that had something to do with "fatal", but it's really fuzzy too | 21:53 |
| hub | tigert: anyway, I'll wait until not long before the discount expire, and if at that time the issue is not solved, I'll give it away through a blog post | 21:53 |
| garrett | kinda at work, multitasking toward a deadline d: | 21:53 |
| Fatal | heck, i bet it could even been named #occy or so, since the letter o popped into my head, but seems unlikely trae would have a channel named after himself, right? | 21:53 |
| garrett | ah, yeah | 21:53 |
| garrett | he did, I think | 21:53 |
| garrett | at one point or another | 21:53 |
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| garrett | as many of our websites were on one of his machines way back when | 21:54 |
| Fatal | aaah | 21:54 |
| garrett | [mbm] was there too | 21:54 |
| garrett | http://web.archive.org/web/20011127115615/http://occy.net/ <- the style is a little messed up I think | 21:54 |
| garrett | ahhh hah artwiz! what happened to him? | 21:55 |
| [mbm] | heh | 21:55 |
| garrett | oh, and daz too | 21:55 |
| [mbm] | havent seen daz since #linuxhelp | 21:55 |
| Fatal | wonder where i stored all my irclogs | 21:55 |
| * [mbm] really didn't keep in touch with anyone after linux.com folded | 21:56 | |
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| [mbm] | kinda sucks that the site is mostly a mirror of newsforge now | 21:57 |
| garrett | yeah | 21:57 |
| garrett | totally | 21:57 |
| konfoo | corporate destruction | 22:01 |
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| Sulis | which site is a mirror of newsforge? | 22:02 |
| Fatal | haha, excellent, found irclogs from #xmms in 2001 anyway :D | 22:02 |
| [mbm] | Sulis: linux.com | 22:02 |
| Sulis | ah right | 22:03 |
| garrett | Fatal: haha | 22:03 |
| * mgedmin almost never visits sites in .com | 22:03 | |
| [mbm] | slashdot.com sucks | 22:04 |
| Fatal | gotcha | 22:04 |
| Fatal | -rw------- fatal/users 29462 2003-01-29 02:30 Irc/Misc Channels/#occy.net.20011221.log | 22:04 |
| garrett | heh | 22:04 |
| Fatal | wasn't too long ago then afterall | 22:05 |
| Fatal | only 5-6 years | 22:05 |
| garrett | [mbm]: slashdot.net is the better than .com and especially .org | 22:05 |
| mgedmin | there's a slashdot.com? | 22:05 |
| [mbm] | garrett: hmm yeah | 22:05 |
| maddler | doh! | 22:05 |
| [mbm] | mgedmin: yeah but it's full of crap | 22:06 |
| mgedmin | I see now "_ | 22:06 |
| mgedmin | er, :) | 22:06 |
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| konfoo | i remember i had one interviewee that said slashdot when i asked what trade references do you read | 22:09 |
| konfoo | 'ok son you can go now' | 22:10 |
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| tigert | slashdot is org | 22:11 |
| Fatal | "I only read it for the articles" .. yeaaah right | 22:11 |
| [mbm] | konfoo: least you didn't say digg.com and youtube | 22:11 |
| kulve | tigert: btw. Thanks for the plankton theme. Looks nice. | 22:11 |
| konfoo | [mbm]: i didnt say anything, i was the one doing the interviewing :) | 22:12 |
| tigert | np | 22:12 |
| tigert | I need to fix the remaining bugs | 22:12 |
| Veggen | mmmmh. ScummVM. It works....but...can one save the games? | 22:12 |
| Veggen | <---just lost ;) | 22:12 |
| [mbm] | konfoo: oops, read that backwards | 22:12 |
| * [mbm] really can't think of any trade mags worth reading .. | 22:13 | |
| Tak|work | I thought I was able to save my Fate of Atlantis game | 22:14 |
| Tak|work | although I'm not having any luck with doom saves :-( | 22:14 |
| garrett | Veggen: I believe so, but I don't know how to input the names so one can actually get to save them | 22:14 |
| konfoo | [mbm]: me neither :) | 22:14 |
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| [mbm] | Veggen: you just click save and it generates names automatically | 22:14 |
| konfoo | embedded linux journal maybe | 22:14 |
| Veggen | ah, I found. | 22:14 |
| mgedmin | I only read slashdot for comments rated +5 funny | 22:15 |
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| *** glasss is now known as glas5 | 22:15 | |
| [mbm] | konfoo: yeah I suppose, sadly I still have a wired subscription even though wired has been nothing but fluff for atleast the last decade | 22:15 |
| konfoo | [mbm]: indeed.. it has dropped to pretty much glorified advertisments | 22:17 |
| [mbm] | konfoo: yeah and without a free cuecat I really don't care for the ads | 22:17 |
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| [mbm] | makezine is cool but often reads like a kids magazine for their lack of technical depth | 22:18 |
| sbaturzio | Aloha! | 22:18 |
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| maddler | any clue on where to download scumm games? :) | 22:29 |
| nomis | maddler: when you're lucky you can get a collection of old lucasfilm games quite cheap. | 22:30 |
| nomis | I bought a big collection like 4 years ago for about 10 EUR or somethign. | 22:31 |
| garrett | maddler: there are some free ones on scummvm's website | 22:31 |
| Tak|work | I still have my old copy of sam&max somewhere | 22:32 |
| garrett | iirc, scummvm has some sierra support now too | 22:32 |
| garrett | but not (yet) in the n800, I believe | 22:33 |
| glas5 | any sierra engines ported to maemo? | 22:33 |
| maddler | nomis: there was an abandonware site... | 22:33 |
| konfoo | maddler: abandonware sites | 22:33 |
| konfoo | heh | 22:33 |
| maddler | oh... abandonia!!! | 22:33 |
| maddler | and there was also thras* something... | 22:34 |
| Tak|work | ooo, I wonder if the ultima underworld engine port ever achieved fruition | 22:34 |
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| maddler | damn... day of the tentacle cannot be downloaded... | 22:35 |
| maddler | :D | 22:35 |
| glas5 | the games aren't really too hard to find | 22:35 |
| Tak|work | wow, somebody ported UU to pocketpc | 22:36 |
| glas5 | or even torrents with all the games | 22:36 |
| konfoo | maddler http://torrentspy.com/download.asp?id=163311 | 22:36 |
| maddler | konfoo: thx | 22:36 |
| Sulis | what's UU? | 22:36 |
| Tak|work | ultima underworld | 22:36 |
| glas5 | uu rocks | 22:36 |
| glas5 | great engine for it's time and a great game | 22:36 |
| Tak|work | totally | 22:36 |
| glas5 | broke a logitech pilot mouse with it.. | 22:37 |
| mgedmin | random thought: the 770 has the best user experience for configuring bluetooth dialup of any linux distro I've seen | 22:37 |
| glas5 | yeah | 22:38 |
| hub | mgedmin: because it is not a linux distro | 22:38 |
| hub | ;-) | 22:38 |
| tigert | mgedmin: I think it takes someone to look throuhg the use cases and design it | 22:38 |
| tigert | and then someone to do it | 22:38 |
| Tak|work | aw, the linux port uses opengl :-( | 22:38 |
| tigert | or, those two doing it together | 22:38 |
| glas5 | tak: is it complete yet? | 22:38 |
| Sulis | Tak|work: what's wrong with using opengl? | 22:39 |
| glas5 | speaking of which, is exult ported to maemo? | 22:39 |
| mgedmin | who else finds the wifi disconnect confimation dialog annoying? | 22:39 |
| mgedmin | if I didn't mean it, I wouldn't have chosen disconnect from the menu, would I? | 22:39 |
| Tak|work | 1) it's unnecessary in this case 2) that means little/no chance of it running on an IT | 22:39 |
| glas5 | sulis: the original uu style engine would work faster on 770 | 22:39 |
| Tak|work | mgedmin: I agree | 22:39 |
| Sulis | ah-hah | 22:40 |
| Tak|work | it ran fine on dos with a 486sx/25 - it doesn't need accelerated 3d! | 22:40 |
| tigert | mgedmin: yeah, some stuff is asking too much with dialogs | 22:41 |
| glas5 | uu1 ran fine on a 386sx.. | 22:41 |
| tigert | mgedmin: we'll start a ui blog soon too | 22:41 |
| mgedmin | cool | 22:41 |
| tigert | as observant people have noticed on garage | 22:41 |
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| tigert | it will hopefully make the stuff more conversation-like with you folks | 22:42 |
| Tak|work | yeah - "This team will be created soon" | 22:42 |
| tigert | its been so one-way | 22:42 |
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| garrett | the notifications are annoying sometimes, and one has to wait, cannot dismiss them | 22:42 |
| glas5 | exult(ultima 7 engine) should be quite easy to port | 22:42 |
| garrett | they're useful too sometimes though | 22:42 |
| konfoo | i always preferred the isometric and 2d ultima games | 22:43 |
| tigert | garrett: yea, they appear over the thumb keyboard close button for example | 22:43 |
| garrett | heh fun | 22:43 |
| Tak|work | would be nice to be able to dismiss the notifications with a tap | 22:43 |
| garrett | yeah | 22:44 |
| garrett | that would be nice at least | 22:44 |
| Tak|work | or maybe a double-tap to reduce accidents | 22:44 |
| garrett | the loading one, if one dismissed that, may be strange, as the thing isn't necessarily done loading | 22:45 |
| garrett | but there could be some other notification of loading somewhere else | 22:45 |
| tigert | Tak|work: tripletap followed by a double tap!! | 22:45 |
| garrett | plus, load times should be worked on anyway | 22:45 |
| garrett | tigert: haha | 22:45 |
| Tak|work | hah, now you're reminding me of gaim | 22:45 |
| mgedmin | +1 for dismissing notifications with a tap | 22:45 |
| garrett | tigert: then a tap-slide-tap-tap | 22:45 |
| Tak|work | there used to be easter eggs if you would, like ctrl+double-middle-click on something | 22:45 |
| mgedmin | garrett: tap out "dismiss" in morse code | 22:46 |
| tigert | anyway, the blog and such will be interesting | 22:46 |
| garrett | Tak: there is an easter egg in Red Hat Linux 8 and 9 kinda sorta like that | 22:46 |
| Tak|work | hmm - exult already runs on zaurus | 22:46 |
| garrett | mgedmin: yes! | 22:46 |
| konfoo | anyone want to buy a zaurus? :) | 22:46 |
| konfoo | (speaking of) | 22:47 |
| Tak|work | the "loading" one should be one of those dialogs with a progress bar / bouncing bar anyway, if the loading time is >1s | 22:48 |
| mgedmin | progress bar would be useful, if the time remaining can be estimated | 22:49 |
| mgedmin | I do not see an advantage of a bouncing bar over the current throbber | 22:49 |
| mgedmin | the boot progress bar is nice | 22:49 |
| Tak|work | well - I meant current bouncing bar, like when you change the bg image (iirc) | 22:50 |
| garrett | OH MAN | 22:50 |
| Tak|work | yeah @ boot/flash progress bar | 22:50 |
| garrett | changing the background image SUCKS | 22:50 |
| garrett | it changes it and then the progress keeps going for another minute or two | 22:50 |
| Tak|work | yeah - why exactly does it take 60s to load an image? | 22:50 |
| garrett | and then you just stare at the cylon eye progress | 22:50 |
| Tak|work | particularly when the image is actually loaded in the first 5s? | 22:50 |
| mgedmin | iirc it's more than just loading, the system composes the status bar etc on top and compresses the result as a png | 22:50 |
| garrett | mgedmin: yes, but it finishes that in a couple seconds | 22:51 |
| mgedmin | what does it do the rest of the time then? | 22:51 |
| garrett | plays 8,000 games of tic-tac-toe with itself? | 22:51 |
| Tak|work | hmm - is there a non-application-catalog faq on the new wiki? | 22:52 |
| keesj | Jaffa: are you there? | 22:52 |
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| tigert | Tak|work: its probably something we dont even want to know | 22:54 |
| Tak|work | heh | 22:54 |
| tigert | I noticed the same | 22:56 |
| tigert | "wtf, you just loaded it anyway.." | 22:56 |
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| Tak|work | doesn't appear to hurt anything if you hit cancel after you can see the image... | 22:57 |
| [mbm] | hmm is it just me or does dropbear not start immediately after boot? seems like it doesn't start until I launch an xterm | 22:59 |
| inz | [mbm], check /etc/rc2.d/S??dropbear | 22:59 |
| inz | [mbm], it may very well be started after desktop (af-base-apps) | 23:00 |
| [mbm] | inz: all the init.d stuff looks fine; was the first thing I checked | 23:01 |
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| kulve | dropbear might suffer from too low entropy | 23:08 |
| kulve | I took a night in our very idle monahas board for dropbear to get enough random numbers to start up.. :) | 23:08 |
| [mbm] | I just get connections refused and then I fire up xterm to see what the problem is and the second xterm starts dropbear works | 23:08 |
| kulve | I've noticed too, that it starts(?) slowly.. | 23:09 |
| Tak|work | does dropbear have any compelling advantage over openssh? | 23:09 |
| kulve | smaller | 23:09 |
| Disconnect | size | 23:09 |
| kulve | fewer dependencies | 23:09 |
| kulve | on n800, no real differencies.. | 23:10 |
| kulve | imo | 23:10 |
| [mbm] | openssh is huge, although the n800 has more than enough space | 23:10 |
| [mbm] | dropbear gets used on routers with 2 and 4M of flash where every byte counts | 23:10 |
| [mbm] | and imho works just as well as openssh | 23:10 |
| inz | [mbm], maybe starting xterm creates 'nuff entropy for dropbear ;) | 23:11 |
| kulve | mbm try linkin urandom to random (or was it vice versa) and try again | 23:11 |
| [mbm] | think I'll need to figure out a way to wire up serial console so I can poke around more | 23:11 |
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| [mbm] | saw the serial pinout on the wiki but I didn't see any good suggestions for a connector | 23:12 |
| disq | hot glue :P | 23:13 |
| [mbm] | I don't need wires dangling out of it when I'm going through TSA | 23:14 |
| Tak|work | as long as you don't put LEDs on it | 23:14 |
| [mbm] | believe me, I already have enough suspicious devices like that | 23:14 |
| [mbm] | what I need is some snap in connector with pogo pins | 23:15 |
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| arj | anyone got the new version of media streamer running on their n770? | 23:40 |
| arj | ah works from new downloads.maemo.org page | 23:44 |
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| ocnarfid8 | Anyone have a good case they recommend for the N800? This slip on deal it came with is no protection for the screen. | 23:49 |
| sxpert | ocnarfid8, I think nokia sells something similar to what they have for the 770 as an accessory | 23:49 |
| arj | didn't seem to work :/ | 23:50 |
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| [mbm] | think there was some preorder for a flap that folded over the screen and used magnets | 23:51 |
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| ocnarfid8 | I just found that, doesn't seem like its substancial enough. | 23:52 |
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| [mbm] | ocnarfid8: there was a thread at internettablettalk about it | 23:52 |
| ocnarfid8 | I want something that will protect it so I can put it in my pocket. | 23:52 |
| [mbm] | also mentioned using stuff like nintendo ds lite cases | 23:52 |
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| [mbm] | I'm still using the cloth sock with mine | 23:52 |
| user_ | hi i am new to n800, that is a great tool | 23:52 |
| Tak|work | I just put mine in my pocket | 23:52 |
| Tak|work | it's the only thing there, though | 23:53 |
| ocnarfid8 | http://picasaweb.google.com/thoughtfix/NokiaAdventures/photo#5019456586701116738 | 23:53 |
| disq | dslite case worked perfectly with my 770, will try it with the n800 right now in fact (well.. i kinda hanged it down my belt in E3) | 23:53 |
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| ocnarfid8 | This puppy isn't going into my pocket until I find something to put it in. :) | 23:56 |
| garrett | ocnarfid8: I use the slip-on thing myself, but I'm just careful and dedicate one whole pocket to the device | 23:57 |
| ocnarfid8 | N800 belt buckle? There's an idea heh. | 23:57 |
| garrett | ocnarfid8: heh | 23:57 |
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| garrett | I have a DS Lite too | 23:57 |
| garrett | but | 23:57 |
| garrett | I don't have a case for that | 23:58 |
| garrett | it flips together shut just fine, so it protects itself | 23:58 |
| garrett | I have a case for some extra ds games though... | 23:58 |
| disq | well i don't have a ds/dslite | 23:58 |
| ocnarfid8 | When I got the video ipod there were no cases out for it, by the time I got a case it was scratched quite a bit :| | 23:59 |
| ocnarfid8 | Guess it will take a month or two before someone comes out with some decent cases. | 23:59 |
| disq | btw you can even use the straps inside the case. the default themes have 24px gutters anyway :P | 23:59 |
| garrett | that picture with the case is a little annoying, with the lady hovering her drink over the N800 | 23:59 |
| Sulis | nokia sell a flip case for the n800 | 23:59 |
| garrett | s/case/flip cover/ | 23:59 |
| [mbm] | ocnarfid8: well, keep the crappy sticker on the screen | 23:59 |
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