IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2007-02-01

*** Ryback_ has quit IRC00:00
revso, anyone got any tips for turning off (= putting to sleep) the N800? what is the equivalent to sliding the metal case on?00:02
maddlertimeless: no you have to explicitly ask what you want00:02
||cwrev: I odn't recall the name of it, but there's a file in /etc/ that you can uncomment a line that enables that in the power button menu00:03
maddlerrev not in the same way...00:03
||cwsomeone was talking about it a few days ago here00:03
rev||cw: seriously? egads, joy of joy!00:03
*** NickDe has quit IRC00:03
maddleryou can tweak lock/shutdown menu00:03
rev||cw: why the heck don't they make it so that when you tap the power button, it puts it to sleep, but holding down  the button brings up the menu, from which you can choose a 'real' powerdown00:04
VeggenI need a good email client on the N800. but I suspect telomer doesn't support imaps?00:04
maddlertelomer00:05
maddler?00:05
Veggenwhat's people using for eail?00:05
Veggenemail.00:05
maddlermutt00:05
maddlerhehe00:05
Veggenoh, can do.00:05
* rev uses Squeak's email client, at least on the N80000:05
*** luck has quit IRC00:05
* rev already misses the metal-case design of the 77000:05
Veggenbut I still think the n800 is better with a gui :)00:05
nomisrev: you're not alone.00:05
||cwrev: 770 was the other way, tap brings up a menu, hold powers it off completely00:06
*** EmilyFromFarAway has joined #maemo00:06
rev||cw: i know, the N800 is the same as the 770 - *but* at least the 770 at the slide-case, whereas the N800 has *no* way to put it to sleep00:06
*** shackan has joined #maemo00:06
rev||cw: which seems like a crack-addled oversight00:06
*** skandaleras has joined #maemo00:07
rev||cw: it's one thing to question long-standing PDA/tablet conventions, but another to not provide a solution that is at least as functional, if not an improvement00:07
||cwdidn't you just say that a power button tap sleeps it?00:07
rev||cw: no, i was saying that's what i wish it had00:07
nomisI recently discovered, that the felt pouch (of course) does not prevent the screen from lighting up when something presses on it.00:07
||cwah00:07
revnomis: don't get me wrong, i like the faster CPU, the dual SD slots and beset of all the handy stand thing (my fave!)00:07
Takrev: you try vba yet? ;-)00:08
nomiswhich of course is a bummer, since now you need to lock the device via a not-really-uncomplicated button combination.00:08
||cwthat is one thing I like about the 770, I can have it in my back pocket and no worry about it00:08
revnomis: nor does it hold it well... i've had it fly out of my jacket a few times already, a day old and a scratch00:08
||cwit's just big enugh that I know it's there so I dont' sit on it00:08
revTak: no, actually, i've not! i keep forgetting to ftp it to my 800 ... i'm quite curious00:08
*** nelson has quit IRC00:08
rev||cw: indeed, i liked the indudstrial design of the 770 in that sense- i didn't need to carry around an extra case, because that metal case was quite good for protecting it00:08
* maddler feels comfortable with the sft poweroff00:08
maddlersoft00:09
revmaddler: ?00:09
nomismaddler: do you lock the device before putting it in the felt-bag? and if not, how do you carry it around?00:09
maddleryou can tweak power button menu00:09
|tbb|_but the bug isnt that good, maddler00:09
revmaddler: what file am i looking for?00:09
maddlernomis: yes I lock it00:09
* rev never locked his 770 ... 00:09
maddlerrev wait00:09
EmilyFromFarAwayHi, I'm new to Maemo development, and have a hopefully simple question: How do I kill left-over session in the scratchbox?00:10
maddler/etc/systemui/00:10
revand i don't want to start having to lock my N800 because the developers didn't do such an important thing right00:10
revi don't mean to be so hard on them00:10
maddlerif IRC00:10
revit just drives me nuts that the problem wasn't fixed for the second device00:10
revnot only not fixed, but made worse00:10
revmaddler: thanks, i'll look quick00:11
*** ssvb has quit IRC00:11
timelessyou could enable automatic key lock ;-)00:11
timelessand please don't plblame developers for things which were probably specified by "user interface designers"00:12
revtimeless: indeed, i will probably have to do that considering the soft case00:12
timelessor whatever their title is00:12
nomistimeless: that is evil if the device is lying on the desktop and you constantly have to unlock it, because you don't use it continuously.00:12
TakEmilyFromFarAway: leftover?00:12
revtimeless: well, i don't know who is to blame- the developers seemed like the natural choice, but i don't work for nokia and know what decisions were made by what departments00:12
nomisin fact I believe that this makes the N800 less "always on" than the 770.00:12
revnomis: precisely00:12
*** chenca has quit IRC00:13
nomisI really would love to spy on the design discussions.00:13
timelessrev: speaking from a position where you aren't, trust me, on average there's a ui engineer to be blamed00:13
revit all seems like a goofy excuse for just not having a "power" button that works the way every PDA since the Newton has00:13
timelessengineers in general should be blamed only for things that weren't implemented00:13
*** netx has quit IRC00:13
timelessand blaming them for not having time to implement things is fairly silly :)00:13
EmilyFromFarAwayWell, when I start scratchbox with sbox_ctl start, it complains about "You have 2 other Scratchbox sessions running"00:13
revtimeless: well, someone should give that person a talking to ... maybe buy him or her a palm or pocket pc and say- see how well this works, relatively?00:13
nomisrev: actually I am fine with the way the 770 used the cover to have some kind of power off.00:14
timelessgot a more specific version of oneof those devices?00:14
nomisit was nice. Pull off the cover and the device greets you with a lighted up screen.00:14
revtimeless: umm, i'd say anything running palm os or pocket pc - how about a palm V? an axim x51v?00:14
timelessi have an old palm and a w950i that i'm borrowing00:14
nomisNow I have to pull a dead black brick from the felt pouch and do something to get it bright.00:14
TakEmilyFromFarAway: you could kill any scratchbox shells and/or qemu-arm processes manually00:14
revtimeless: a newton MP2100? they all do it the same way - you hit the power button, and it goes off00:14
timelessi think mine's a palm v, i'd have to find a way to turn it on00:15
timelessrev: so, the key thing about palm is that it's static00:15
timelessit doesn't need to "boot"00:15
timelesssince it ran palmos, not linux00:15
timelessas you probably know, the n800/770 do not boot instantly00:15
revtimeless: or, for a more specific and expansive example- the Sony Clie NX70v s a good example, because the UI design vis a vis the power button covers things like music playing, net connection, etc as well00:15
Veggenwhere's a pointer to latest info for installing scratchbox, btw?00:15
revtimeless: the palm os and WinCW both don't boot instantly... they boot like linux, and take about the same time, though a little less00:16
nomistimeless: the power button does not necessarily have to shut down the device completely.00:16
revtimeless: but the only time you see the PalmOS or WinCE "boot" is when you hit the reset button00:16
revtimeless: incidentally, that is how I use my 770- i don't ever shut down or boot unless I'm changing battery or changing an SD card on which the swap file is located00:16
timelessyou shouldn't need to kill it for that swap item00:17
revtimeless: or look at the Zaurus- also linux, but it implements the same behavior as the Palm OS, Newton, and WinCe all do00:17
timelessisn't swap something you can disable w/o rebooting?00:17
* timeless hasn't used swap in a while00:17
revtimeless: well, i didn't know if i did- i had errors the one time i swapped my SD card where there was a swap file00:17
timelesssomeone explained to me that most things i was using weren't going to swap00:17
revtimeless: mind you, i rarely swap SD cards, it isn't an important point00:17
revtimeless: but my point is, the power-UI of the 770 and N800 have nothing to do with technical issues, it's just a matter of design00:18
timelessi mostly swap cards when i want to trade core files :)00:18
revtimeless: i only reaally swap cards if i want to copy a lot of data onto the card, mp3s or something00:18
*** shackan has quit IRC00:18
timelessi don't think the people who designed most of this have even seen most of the devices you've mentioned :|00:19
timelessi don't think many of them nmade it to finland00:19
timelessit seems the main thing people have seen is the nokia communicator series00:19
revtimeless: they have at least *one* Newton OS, WinCE or Palm OS model ... I'm sure one of them has a Zaurus they they imported form Japan, just like we have to do in the rest of the world00:20
timelessthere are of course some products that people could llook at if they knew to look at and thought they should00:20
revtimeless: i've never used a nokia communicator, but i imagine that it has a more sensible power- UI than the 770 and N800 do- the Psions I've seen did00:20
* timeless chuckles00:20
timelessi don't think i've met a single nokia product w/ a sensible power ui00:20
timelessto turn off a nokia device, you pull the battery00:20
revtimeless: not on the one nokia phone i had00:21
timelessyou sure?00:21
revtimeless: you just held the power button down and it powered off00:21
revtimeless: but it was a cell phone, you didn't put it to sleep like you do a PDA/tablet00:21
timelesswell on communicators, that only shuts off the cell part of the phone00:21
*** herzi has quit IRC00:21
timelessof course your phone was still keeping time and possibly other things00:21
*** koen|gprs has joined #maemo00:22
timelessi haven't used a real old nokia phone since 2003 and never really cared if turning it off really turned it off, besides, why would anyone turn their phone off? :)00:22
revtimeless: like i said, i didn't hae a communicator, this is with a Nokia 6800-series00:22
||cwtimeless: and rtc and a small backup batter keep time when the phone is off00:22
revtimeless: and when it, at least that model, was off it was all the way off00:22
Taktimeless: au contrair, why would anyone turn their phone *on* ?00:22
timelesstak: to dial 1-800-555-TELL :)00:23
revtimeless: but like you say, i didn't have reason to  turn it off often- generally only if it was realy low on battery, and i needed to save that battery for later for a call or something00:23
* timeless nods00:23
Robot101anyone got any ideas how to debug why maemo-af-desktop is crashing?00:23
*** nelson has joined #maemo00:23
timelessrobot101: is this in scratchbhox?00:24
Robot101no, on my device00:24
timelessif not, make /media/mmc1/core-dumps00:24
timelessyou'll get a core in that directory (maybe a couple)00:24
nomisRobot101: are you using some non-standard applets?00:24
timelessbut yeah, non standard applets are a good way to cause crashes00:24
*** Texrat has quit IRC00:24
timelessgpe and one of the others00:24
timelessmweather?00:24
Robot101nomis: I installed mediastreamer and osso-xterm yesterday, then I found my device in a reboot loop in the evening00:25
timelessis the reboot loop before or after the desktop appears?00:25
timelessthe normal reboot loop is solved by removing the battery00:25
Robot101after the connecting hands, then the screen goes white, then it starts booting00:25
timelessthe sucky reboot loops involve switching to -no-lifeguard-reset or something using the linux flasher00:25
Robot101it's definitely maemo-af-desktop crashing00:25
*** pdz- has joined #maemo00:25
timelessanyway, i presume you have linux00:26
timelessthings to do:00:26
timeless1. have that directory00:26
timeless2. hrm, not sure if you can do 200:26
timelessif you can get the device to boot there's a /proc/bootreason or something00:26
timelessbut i'm not sure if you can get to that in a useful manner00:26
Robot101well, I've got a serial console and turned off lifeguard resets00:27
timelessthe flasher can let you boot from usb or mmc00:27
timelessand you should be able to find an image for booting from mmc (or instructions to make one)00:27
timelesswhat does the serial console say?00:27
* timeless really wants to figure out how to use apt-get to get all packages from a repository :(00:28
timelessmaybe i should just use wget -mirror ? :)00:28
*** shackan has joined #maemo00:28
revot wpi;dm00:28
rever00:28
revit wouldn't be too hard00:28
revi mean, i assume there's an apt command that lists all the packages in the repository00:29
revpipe that to a file00:29
Takapt-get --download-only install '*' ?00:29
revthen foreach apt-get $line that00:29
*** booiiing has quit IRC00:29
sp3000that's .*00:29
Takah, is it regex?00:30
timelessdoesn't worko very well00:30
timelessrepository has conflicts00:30
hapVeggen: i use gmail for email00:30
sp3000heh00:30
hapaah wait, it keeps crashing on my N80000:30
timelessyou want to use gmail for email00:30
timelesspersonally i'd suggest https://mail.google.com/mail/h/00:30
sp3000if you're downloading-only, you should be able to tell it to not care00:30
hapso I used it once, now it doesn't work anymore.00:31
timelesshap: have you tried h/ ?00:31
Robot101Starting clipboard-manager00:31
Robot101DSME: process '/usr/bin/maemo_af_desktop ' with pid 985 exited with signal: 400:31
Robot101DSME: '/usr/bin/maemo_af_desktop ' exited with RESET policy -> reset00:31
Robot101Starting Interaction Server: Starting media-server00:31
haptimeless: i did, it did work at the beginning, after no more. I didn't try to go to the HTML page00:31
revtimeless: what is /h/ ?00:31
timelesshtml00:31
timelessi.e. not rich00:31
* rev nods00:31
timelessi find that i'm much happier w/ it00:32
timelessther'es no real need or benefit to rich on the 770 or n80000:32
timelessand i'm a heavy gmail user00:32
Veggentimeless: but what if you don't want to use gmail? Some of us still prefer to run our own email-server :)00:32
timelessask anyone who knows me00:32
timelessyou're crazy00:32
sp3000oh, it doesn't have an option for that. bah00:32
tzztimeless: not everyone wants Google to store their mail.00:33
timelesstzz: not everyone is sane00:33
tzztimeless: if you are a Google competitor for example...00:33
timelesstzz: put another way, which would you rather designing your UI: google or nokia00:33
timelessi can tell you my answer in a heartbeat00:33
timelessand i hope my employer won't object00:34
revhaha00:34
svuIs skyhusker's xchat compatible with n800? I am getting error trying to install ...00:34
lle2long heartbeat..00:34
timelesssp3000: my favorite is this;00:34
timeless  libgwobex-dev: Depends: pkg-config but it is not installable00:34
valtsuoh but there is so much eye candy and so few bogomips in nokia products...00:35
tzztimeless: um, wtf does Nokia have to do with it?  Google Mail is OK if you want to depend on Google and trust them.  I don't, for instance.00:35
timelesstzz: put another way00:35
sp3000it's bound to complain about installing everything, thre's bound to be smoe conflicts00:35
*** booiiing has joined #maemo00:35
valtsutimeless: maemo != nokia ui design00:35
timelesshere are three choices for email clients:00:35
timelessthunderbird(seamonkey), nokia mail, gmail00:35
sp3000too bad it doesn't understand download-only means download-only00:35
timelesswhich would you trust w/ your mailbox?00:36
valtsupine?00:36
lle2mutt?00:36
timelessfor reference, thunderbird/seamonkey have historically deleted inboxes00:36
timelessand not even the nokia devs dogfood their mail client00:36
*** EmilyFromFarAway has quit IRC00:36
timelessalthough there are ui engineers who use it (much to my surprise)00:36
timelessas for pine/mutt, i hope you're using screen :)00:37
myren_lol00:37
myren_whoo dogfood00:37
timelessand no, i'm not opposed to pine/mutt00:37
*** EmilyFromAbroad has joined #maemo00:37
timelessthere were a couple of months i was using less00:37
timelessit worked quite well for my needs00:37
*** pdz has quit IRC00:37
*** snorkelyd has left #maemo00:37
timelesssp3000: so..00:37
timelessclearly i can't use apt-get to get things00:38
*** |tbb|_ has quit IRC00:38
*** hauptmech has joined #maemo00:38
timelessunless i cheat00:38
timelesscan i lie about having packages?00:38
timeless  x-build: Depends: autoconf but it is not installable00:38
timeless           Depends: automake1.8 but it is not installable00:38
timeless           Depends: cdbs but it is not installable00:38
timeless           Depends: debhelper (>= 4.1.88) but it is not installable00:38
timeless           Depends: pkg-config but it is not installable00:38
timeless           Depends: libtool but it is not installable00:38
*** |tbb| has quit IRC00:38
timelessi don't have any of those :)00:38
valtsujust use mistral + apt pinning00:38
timelesssorry, i can't00:39
timelessthis isn't really debian00:39
timelessit's a very *empty* sandbox00:39
lle2bootstrapping a debian system is soooo '0500:39
timelessi've actually done it a couple of times00:40
timelessi had to do it at least once to get this system so i could do what i'm doing now00:40
valtsucrokodile2 kicks ass for that00:40
Robot101hm00:40
Robot101I wish we had strace00:40
* timeless has strace00:41
timelessand truss for that matter00:41
Robot101hang on a second...00:41
Robot101maemo_af_desktop started, when I started it manually00:41
Robot101even though it exited with signal 4 when I booted00:41
timelessdid you make the core-dumps directory?00:41
*** ajturner has joined #maemo00:41
timelessgoogle can't find crokodile200:41
Robot101yeah, I just have the traditional Xomap at shutdown coredump00:41
timelessthis is 2007 or 2007.0.1?00:42
tzztimeless: heh, I'm not going to list all the kinds of mail clients out there.  Your list is a very tiny subset though.  From Gnus to OWA, there's tremendous variety.  Oh, and there's no "mailbox" with Maildirs and with IMAP.00:42
Robot101how can I tell? it has internet call invitation so I think that makes it the point release...?00:42
timelesstzz: i can't open my maildir mailbox over imap00:43
hauptmechRandom question: is nokia abandoning the 770 hardware?00:43
tzzit's actually pretty hard to trash an IMAP folder unless you really try.00:43
timelessthe mail server dies00:43
kaatistimeless, those are provided by build tools from scratchbox. maemo installer script should take care of those00:43
timelesskaatis: scratchbox? funny00:43
timelessthis isn't00:43
*** _k-s_ has quit IRC00:43
tzztimeless: of course you can't open it over IMAP, it's a directory.  Run Courier IMAP or Dovecot.00:43
Robot101timeless: how do I tell what release I have?00:44
timelesstzz: by open, i mean courier00:44
timelessrobot101: check the bottom of the core file00:44
timelessit should have the number 2007 in it i think00:44
lle2timeless: why do you use apt to get the stuff?00:45
tzztimeless: OK, so configure it.00:45
timelesslle2: because it's moderately better than00:45
Robot101timeless: about in control panel says 2.2005.51-600:45
lle2timeless: why not just download them, extract with dpkg and configure later?00:45
timelesstzz: it crashes because it runs out of memory00:45
lle2timeless: that's what everybody else does00:45
timelessthere are probably about a million messages in inbox00:45
*** EmilyFromAbroad has quit IRC00:45
timelesslle2: well, i did say i was considering wget -mirror00:46
timelessrobot101: 2005?00:46
Robot101er, 200600:46
Robot101:D00:46
tzztimeless: out of memory?  Can you explain a little more?00:46
lle2timeless: I've not followed your adventure too closely, I just fail to understand what you hope to gain by torturing yourself00:46
timelesstzz: imap protocol says the first thing you do is get the inbox list00:47
*** MacSlow has joined #maemo00:47
timelessas soon as the client finishes that it makes one more question00:47
timelessand the server replies w/ an error out of memory00:47
timelessbecause the process of indexing all the tiny messages has blown its little mind00:47
tzztimeless: how much memory does it have?00:47
timelesspresumably it can have 2g if it wants00:48
timelessbut if you consider that there are probably 1-2million messages00:48
timelessand each message needs some space for say a file path and a uid00:48
tzztimeless: heh, come on, you don't have 1-2 million messages in your Maildir00:48
timelessit's kinda in risky ground :)00:48
timelessplease hold00:48
timeless[timeless@viper Maildir]$ find new -type f|wc -l00:49
timeless2647300:49
timelessthat's since the last time i tried to open inbox00:49
timeless[timeless@viper Maildir]$ find cur -type f|wc -l00:49
timeless59296800:49
timelessyou're right, i only have over half a million00:50
timelesssorry :)00:50
||cwo_O00:50
tzzdude, if you're putting 500K messages in a single directory, you should definitely have Google run mail for you.00:50
||cwtime it archive/delete00:50
kaatistimeless, for some reason you don't want to use scratchbox? ok. just take the build tools from debian stable00:50
timeless||cw: i don't use delete00:50
timelesstzz: messages are on average 5-10k, not 500k00:50
||cwme neither, but i use gmail00:50
timelessand yes, gmail is definitely the right answer00:51
||cwand smap does get dleteed after 30 days00:51
||cwI still get between 15-20k spams a month00:51
timeless[timeless@viper Maildir]$ du -s -h *00:51
timeless1.1M    courierimapkeywords00:51
timeless4.0K    courierimapsubscribed00:51
timeless19M     courierimapuiddb00:51
kaatisok maybe you've got the biggest inbox00:51
timelessYou are currently using 2696 MB (96%) of your 2811 MB.00:51
timeless^ that's gmail :)00:52
timeless3.1G    cur00:52
maddleromg00:52
timeless182M    new00:52
timeless4.0K    tmp00:52
timeless[timeless@viper Maildir]$00:52
||cwyou are a mad man00:52
timelessmaildir was a big mistake00:52
||cwbetter than mbox00:52
timelessnot for this mailbox00:53
timelessit's better if your messages are big and few00:53
tzztimeless: I don't even know where to start with what you're doing wrong...00:53
||cwmaybe dbmail would be a way to go00:53
timelessit's a bad idea if you have practically millions of tiny messages00:53
||cwit's generaly slower, but for this much, it might just hold up00:53
* timeless notes that gmail is actually not using as much space as viper00:53
timelessinteresting00:53
*** andreasn has quit IRC00:53
||cwsql server have no issues with millions of rows after all00:53
timelessas long as the sql server and code to use it aren't stupid, yeah00:54
timelessi'm not sure i'd want to use outlook for this00:54
timelessi can of course test outlook by giving it read pop access to gmail00:54
timelessbut i'm not really ready to kill outlook00:54
||cwhehe,m outlook starts to choke at couple k messages00:54
timelessand yes, i can kill just about anything00:55
Takand anything can kill outlook00:55
Takit's a good match00:55
*** eeejay has joined #maemo00:55
timelessi killed the samsung q100:55
||cwpoint t-bird at it00:55
timeless||cw: again, i've already had seamonkey die00:55
timelessbut it turned out that the problem was server side00:55
timelessand, my mailbox is actually improtnat00:56
timelesss/protna/portan/00:56
tzztimeless: anyhow, you may want to look at Dovecot, it's very fast and designed to run in tight memory space00:56
timelessso i don't really want to feed it to something i don't trust00:56
*** koen|gprs has quit IRC00:56
timelesstzz: the next time i talk to viper's admin, i might ask00:56
||cwand dovecot and use your maildir00:56
||cwcan use^00:56
timelessnote: i don't control viper00:56
timelessi'm just a guest with a very big inbox00:57
timelesscourse, viper isn't the worst computer i've used00:57
Robot101timeless: how can I get strace?00:57
timelessi think i'm using something like 4/5 of one computer00:57
*** fab has quit IRC00:57
* timeless tries to remember if robot101 is using 77000:58
timelessok, that's n80000:59
timelesssr1 i believe00:59
Robot101it's an N800, yeah01:00
Robot101and I think you're right it's the 1st point release. the 0th release didn't have video call invites01:00
timelessi think most people just build strace in scratchbox01:00
timelesspersonally, i just install it from a repository01:01
timelessbut, i asked for it to be there, :|01:01
tzztimeless: so have you considered breaking up your 500K messages into folders?  Just curious.  I have at least 5 GB of mail, over a million messages, but no folder is over 100K messages.01:01
timelesstzz: well, err01:01
Robot101timeless: I should investigate these repositories... :)01:01
timelessabout 5 years ago i organized things by age of origin01:01
tzztimeless: I'm intrigued by your use case :)01:01
timelessat a certain point it was too time consuming01:01
timelessbasically, i watched at the time a large portion of bugmail from bugzilla.mozilla.org01:02
timelesswhen i started, each range of bugs 0..9,999; 10,000..19,999 was moved into a folder tree01:02
timelessbased on whether the bug was alive, resolved, verified01:02
*** skallen has quit IRC01:02
timelessthat kinda worked until bugzilla reached 100,00001:03
timelessat which point the time required to do the magical moving was actually nearly prohibitive01:03
timelessi think i still did it for a while past that01:03
timelessprobably nearly to bug 200,00001:03
*** matt_c has quit IRC01:03
timelessby the time april 2004 came around, i got a gmail account, knowing immediately what i intended to do w/ it01:03
tzztimeless: I use filters ("split rules" in Gnus) to break up my mail into folders automatically.  The folder is created if it doesn't exist and you could make it based on the bug number / 100 for example, so INBOX.bugs.100 could be 100 through 199.01:04
timelessoh, one key01:04
timelessi don't trust procmail01:04
timelessor rather, i don't trust myself w/ procmail01:04
timelessmy mail is more improtant to me than my ability to conveniently do things w/ it01:04
timelessthe risk of losing mail by writing a broken filter is not a risk i was willing to take01:05
timelesss/prot/port/01:05
timelesshrm, bug 200,000 is from 200301:05
tzztimeless: er, you realize procmail will not actually drop your mail, right?01:05
timelessi believe there was a time when an incorrect filter would result in the mail being entirely lost01:05
timelessnote that my experience w/ procmail dates to 200101:06
tzztimeless: it's been a while since that.  You have to actively try these days to lose mail.  Anyhow, I'm really getting off topic, apologies to everyone on the channel.01:06
timelessanyway, at a certain point i wasn't able to open my inbox at all, we tried converting to mbox and other things01:06
timelessi think that happened middle 200301:06
timelessat that point, i switched to screen+less01:07
myren_i've never found loosing mail to be problematic01:07
myren_CEO's laptop just died.  he lost lost a week of mail.01:07
timelessit worked well enough, since i was using it mostly to watch bug status01:07
timelessand less could easily mark where i was and then search backwords to find what i needed01:07
timelessless probably held me over until i got gmail in april :)01:08
*** pdz has joined #maemo01:08
*** Sulis has joined #maemo01:08
timelessanyway, wget -mirror is the recommendation for me?01:08
timelesshttp://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2005-October/001537.html01:09
timelessshould be enough information about strace01:09
*** tolgam has joined #maemo01:09
timelessnote that eero knows what he's talking about01:09
timelesshrm01:10
timelessno, -mirror on this wouldn't be remotely useful01:10
Sulisthis may be a silly question to ask, but is it worth getting an N800 over a 770 internet tablet?01:10
timelesssince the information is just a pointer to the pool01:10
timelesssulis: do you want sdcard support?01:10
timelessdo you want more ram?01:10
timelessdo you want future support from nokia?01:11
* timeless has no idea how long nokia plans to support the 77001:11
Sulisright, i see what you mean01:11
timelessthat's i think my whole list of pros01:11
timelessnot on the list is "do you want a 1/4 vga camera"01:11
timelesspersonally, i'm very happy w/ my 770, and i'll be taking it w/ me to fosdem in a few weeks01:12
lle2timeless: I've no idea what you're hoping to accomplish with the .debs.01:12
timelessalthough, i'll probably also take an n800 w/ me01:12
Suliscos i'm really not bothered about having a camera in it01:12
timelesslle2: i need to feed binaries to gdb01:12
lle2timeless: to gdb?01:12
timelessbeyond that, i don't have a use for the debs01:12
timelesslle2: yes01:13
timelessi have core dumps01:13
lle2timeless: haha.01:13
* timeless wrote a patch to get gdb to build a couple of hours ago01:13
timelessbring: cores, gdb, binaries, symbols, result: stack trace01:13
timelessalready have: cross reference (using apt-get and some other magic)01:14
timelessresult: complain to someone (probably provide patch)01:14
lle2from what you're getting the cores from?01:14
timelessan n80001:14
timelessor a user w/ an n80001:14
timeless"send me your cores"01:14
lle2yeah, but what's triggering them?01:14
timelessi'll find someone to take them01:15
* timeless shrugs01:15
timelessannoying users mostly01:15
lle2oh, just a general purpose core dump sorting station? ;)01:15
timelessand i'd rather read their stack traces than try to follow their steps to reproduce01:15
timelesssomething like that01:15
timelessalthough there's already one of those01:15
lle2shouldn't you take just the FIASCO images and extract the binaries from there?01:16
timelessmaybe01:16
lle2hmm, the symbols01:16
* timeless wonders how portable the flasher code is01:17
*** pdz- has quit IRC01:19
*** pdz- has joined #maemo01:19
*** hub has quit IRC01:23
*** Pio has quit IRC01:25
*** NickDe has joined #maemo01:27
*** pdz has quit IRC01:31
*** vivijim has left #maemo01:35
*** koos has joined #maemo01:43
koosHow do I determine at runtime if my app runs on bora or mistral?01:44
timelesswhat happens when someone mixes bora+mistral? :)01:44
timelessnormally you should be checking based on actual features or libraries not theoretical classes that users violate01:44
*** amrothos has joined #maemo01:44
Robot101koos: yeah, what do you actually need to change on either?01:45
koosRobot101: osso-media-server dbus interface is slightly different01:46
koos(mistral get x/y/w/h and bora wid for video output area)01:46
koosother than that, it works out of the box :-)01:47
*** amrothos has quit IRC01:47
Robot101hmm01:48
Robot101can you catch the error at runtime and change your behaviour?01:49
*** Pio has joined #maemo01:49
*** MoRpHeUz has quit IRC01:49
koosRobot101: not realy, only the mm-server restarts when doing it wrongly01:49
Robot101hahaha01:50
Robot101awesome :P01:50
koosOh yeah, mistal  expect four int32 and bora four uint3201:50
Robot101they obviously don't have stream engine's robust X error handling code :)01:50
Sulisi saw a post on engadet that said it *may* be possible to have the n800 access sdhd cards, is there any truth to that or is it just suposition?01:50
*** jpetersen has quit IRC01:51
koosRobot101: now w/ Xv, thus the wid thing, is much better anyhow, no video 'damage' on the screen01:51
Robot101koos: yeah, I know. the xsp stuff was a bizzaro hack. :)01:52
koosHmm, maybe I can check for Xv support ..01:54
*** matt_c has joined #maemo02:07
*** gummibaerchen has quit IRC02:08
tolgamSulis: a patch for the kernel exists but it doesn't seem to be available for n800's kernel yet02:10
nomishmm.02:10
Sulisahh, but i expect it will be very much in demand, so will probably be available eventually02:10
*** ferulo has quit IRC02:11
*** neostrider has joined #maemo02:11
neostriderhello fellows02:11
nomisare the display/volume applets for the af-desktop open source?02:11
*** rev has quit IRC02:12
nomisI wonder how they invoke the control panel applets. Probably dbus, but I don't see suspicious strings in the .so-files.02:13
*** etrunko has quit IRC02:16
*** rev has joined #maemo02:16
timelesshow much do you care about how control panel works?02:20
* timeless considers filing a bug02:20
timelesscontrol panel can't spell "its" correctly02:21
nomistimeless: not much. I just want to know what call (libosso or dbus) to do to invoke a specific control panel applet.02:21
nomisi.e. I want to be able to bring the display configuration up.02:21
nomiseven a dbus-send commandline would probably help me.02:21
timelessgimme a few seconds02:22
*** Piega` has quit IRC02:22
timelessdlopen02:22
timeless"execute"02:22
nomis"exec02:23
nomiseh.02:23
nomiswhat do you mean?02:23
timelessexecute is the name of the function that's called02:24
timelesstypedef osso_return_t (hcp_plugin_exec_f) (02:24
timelessosso_context_t * osso,02:24
timelessgpointer data,02:25
timelessgboolean user_activated);02:25
timelessthat's "execute"02:25
timelessyou're expected to implement two functions02:25
timelessthe other is02:25
timelesstypedef osso_return_t (hcp_plugin_save_state_f) (02:25
nomisoh wait.02:25
timelessosso_context_t * osso,02:25
timelessgpointer data);02:25
timelessthat's02:25
timeless"save_state"02:25
nomisI don't want to implement a control applet. Thats more or less documented.02:25
timelessoh, you want to ask control panel to open something?02:26
nomisyeah.02:26
nomisthere definitely is dbus involved, but it might be wrapped in libosso.02:26
*** skandaleras has quit IRC02:26
timelessone second02:27
timelessservice: "com.nokia.controlpanel"02:27
timelesspath: "/com/nokia/controlpanel/rpc"02:27
timelessinterface: "com.nokia.controlpanel.rpc"02:28
timelessverb: "run_applet"02:28
timelessalternate verb: "save_state_applet"02:28
timelesssilly verb: "top_application"02:28
timelessparanoid verb: "is_applet_running"02:28
timelessis that sufficient?02:28
nomisit definitely helps, I guess I need "run_applet". Can you figure out the name of the display applet?02:29
timelessoh, sure :)02:29
timelessi can read02:29
* timeless finished preschool in the states02:30
* timeless sighs02:30
* timeless hates ln -s . foo02:30
nomistimeless: is the above output from dbus-monitor?02:31
nomistimeless: or where do you get that information from?02:31
* nomis is dbus newbie02:31
timeless"Display"02:32
* timeless doesn't really speak dbus02:32
timelessi'm just reading things02:32
nomistimeless: where?02:32
timelessi'm sure i could use strings if i needed to02:32
timelessmy desktop computer :)02:32
nomisI guess "my monitor" would have been as helpful  :)02:34
timelesswell, i'm reading from my laptop02:34
nomistimeless: and what commands do you issue to bring the relevant information on the monitor for you to read?02:35
Sulishehe02:36
timelesssomething like http://swift/release/search?string= or http://swift/release/find?string= or http://swift/release/source/02:36
*** matt_c has quit IRC02:36
timelesskinda depends, but swift is just an lxr/mxr02:36
timelessso it sorta just gives me answers as long as i can ask moderately reasonable questions02:37
nomisah, so you have access to the Nokia internal SCM?02:38
timelessoh well02:38
*** neostrider_ has joined #maemo02:38
timelessi'm sure you could tap dbus or use gdb to find this stuff out if you were me and desperate02:39
* timeless goes back to trying to figure out how to use apt or wget or something02:39
timelesssuggestions welcome :)02:39
* timeless grumbles02:39
timelesshow can this stupid conversation (gmail thread) have 10 new messages?02:40
timelessin the last 30mins!02:40
nomistimeless: I am glad to know that I did not miss anything obvious on teh interweb.02:40
timelessoh, i'm not saying that02:41
timelessi just didn't need to look :)02:41
timelessi did read the control panel sdk stuff (which is public) a while ago on a flight to LHR02:41
timelessit probably mentioned some dbus bits02:41
timelesshttp://dkothari.blogspot.com/2005/11/maemo-streamripper-control-panel.html would probably have been worth reading02:42
*** neostrider has quit IRC02:43
* timeless tries to remember which is which02:44
timelessare you sure it isn't public?02:45
timelessit's really hard to keep track of these things02:45
timelessthe license certainly doesn't seem to say it couldn't be public02:46
timelesshttp://maemo.org/lxr/source/hildon-control-panel/hildon-cp-applist.c02:46
timelessthat's not necessarily the right file02:46
timelessbut it's the right directory02:46
timelessand its siblings should be present02:47
timelessso, i think you shhould retract your statement about not missing something obvious on the interweb02:47
*** Andy80 has joined #maemo02:47
jaebirdTrying to connect the N800 to my bluetooth gprs, *99# is not working with my phone it likes *99***1#, but my phone sees *99* coming from the N80002:47
timelessthe only big advantage i have is that my cross reference actually works02:47
timelessthat advantage should change02:47
timelessi'm probably going to take over the one you see there02:47
jaebirdif I send **9***1# the whole string goes to the phone...but of course that doesn't work :)02:48
Andy80Hi02:48
timelesshttp://maemo.org/lxr/source/hildon-control-panel/hildon-control-panel-main.c02:48
jaebirdis the N800 automatically cropping when it sees *9902:48
timelessis where i started (essentially)02:48
timelesshttp://maemo.org/lxr/source/hildon-control-panel/hildon-control-panel-main.h#12502:48
timelessis what you wanted to read02:49
timelessit's a perfectly public piece of code02:49
timelessanyway, i'm not going to give a tutorial on how to use the lxr that's running on maemo.org, since i'll hopefully replace it relatively shortly02:49
* timeless needs to finish fixing a few other things02:49
*** matt_c has joined #maemo02:50
timelessas for "Display", i think that one we'll have to accept that i cheated02:50
*** behdad has joined #maemo02:50
nomistimeless: well, at least I get a kind of reasonable error message now  :)02:51
*** Yamazaki-kun has quit IRC02:51
timelessi should check though02:52
* timeless wonders02:52
timelesshttp://maemo.org/lxr/source/hildon-control-panel-l10n/po/en_GB.po#10302:52
timelessit's theoretically possible that the english names are actually always right02:52
timelessdarn, it isn't :(02:54
nomis"Method "run_applet" with signature "sb" on interface "com.nokia.controlpanel.rpc" doesn't exist.02:54
timelesshrm02:55
timelessthat's odd02:55
* timeless isn't actually sure "Display" is used02:55
* timeless wonders if it's hidden behind a macro02:55
nomiswell, the "Display" would be the first argument, but it seems that the function cannot be found.02:56
nomisand the signature should be "sb" from reading hcp_rpc_handler()02:56
timelessi'm actually not sure about the Display bit02:57
nomistimeless: but that is not what causes the above error. Or is the error message just wrong?02:57
* timeless shrugs02:58
timelessone problem at a time?02:58
nomisthe hcp_rpc_handler() should just silently do nothing if the argument is wrong.02:58
timelessanyway, the control panel is open source02:58
timelessso youc an read it :)02:58
nomisok :)02:58
timelessand i found what was probably someone else's control panel applet and gave you a url for it a long time ago02:59
*** sabotage is now known as sabotage_afk02:59
timelessso you really shouldn't need to ask me for anything :)02:59
timelessmy guess is it's actually the .so name or something02:59
timelessi suppose i could trace through some more of the code02:59
timelessthere's no sign of registration anywhere03:00
nomisthe applets live in a hash table, I guess that the plugin name is used as the key.03:01
nomiswhich would be "display" or something.03:02
timelessthere's a gconf schema03:03
*** monteslu has quit IRC03:03
nomisok, the hash table apparently gets filled from hcp_al_read_desktop_entries(), which uses an entry of the .desktop-Keyfile as the name.03:05
*** rev has quit IRC03:05
timelessdesktop keys?03:06
timelessi think in general it's the Name= field from .desktop files03:07
timelesstry disp_ap_application_title03:08
timelesswhich you should see in cpdisplay.desktop03:08
timelesskinda strange name, but hey03:08
* timeless wonders what a name is03:08
timelessmaybe that's only what is shown to the user03:09
nomiswell, the error stays the same, it cannot find the method.03:09
nomisdbus-send --session --print-reply --dest=com.nokia.controlpanel /com/nokia/controlpanel/rpc com.nokia.controlpanel.rpc.run_applet string:disp_ap_application_title boolean:true03:10
nomisthis gives the error about the not existing method run_applet03:11
timelesstry passing a number like 2 instead? :)03:12
nomisinstead of the string: ?03:12
timelessyeah03:12
nomisthe code in hcp_rpc_handler() checks for type == DBUS_TYPE_STRING (and a second for DBUS_TYPE_BOOLEAN)03:14
*** sp3000 has quit IRC03:14
nomis(error message is the same, except for the different signature)03:14
timelessoh, it's an rpc_t thingy03:14
timelesssorry03:15
*** SyntaxNinja has joined #maemo03:15
* timeless really doesn't speak dbus03:15
SyntaxNinjadoes anyone know whether it's pretty common for the N800 to get stuck in bootloops?  I've seen some stuff on the mailng list or something03:15
SyntaxNinjabut I'm wondering if I should return it for new hardware, with the hope that it's buggy hardware, or if I should stiop installing gpe-todo03:15
Sulis:S is it always this difficult to code for maemo things? i was thinking it would be a good chance to refresh my programming...but now i don't know03:15
timelessSyntaxNinja: it's easy to get a boot loop03:16
timelessdon't install buggy third party apps03:16
*** Andy80 has quit IRC03:16
SyntaxNinjatimeless: any solution besides re-flashing?03:16
timelessdon't install buggy apps :)03:16
timelessbut seriously, sometimes you can solve it by removing the battery03:16
SyntaxNinjaI mean after the fact ;)03:16
timelessor disabling the life guard03:16
SyntaxNinjaI disabled the life guard, I think.03:16
timelessit depends though03:16
timelessif you installed something  that crashes the desktop03:17
SyntaxNinjais the gpe suite considered too buggy to install?03:17
timelessby me? yes03:17
SyntaxNinjaah OK :(03:17
timelessit was the reason we're hoping to change the desktop to not be full life guarded03:17
timelessthat and mweather03:17
timelessit was one of the fastest crashes i got03:17
SyntaxNinjathat's sad because I want to use it as a pda; I consider myself a hacker, but I don't want to lose data! I can handle crashes and reboots, but data loss is no good.03:17
timelessdata should all live on your mmc03:18
timelessand your mmc should be vfat03:18
SyntaxNinjammc == the memory card?03:18
SyntaxNinjabut when I reflash, I think I've lost my bookmarks and configuration stuff.03:18
timelessnomis:03:18
timelesshcp->focused_item = g_hash_table_lookup (hcp->al->applets,03:19
timelesshcp->saved_focused_filename);03:19
timelessit's clearly looking for a filename03:19
timelessso give it the whole .so name :)03:19
SyntaxNinjatimeless: thanks for the info. it was helpful.03:21
* timeless kicks the thumb ime03:22
nomistimeless: doesn't help.03:22
* nomis writes mail to mailinglist.03:22
timelessit really needs to cooperate w/ xterminal03:22
timelessnomis: well, my send command at least opened control panel03:23
nomistimeless: oh?03:23
timelessand then it complained about the signature :)03:23
*** behdad has quit IRC03:23
timelessbut htat would make sense03:23
* timeless goes to try to figure out dbus signatures03:23
*** spect has quit IRC03:23
timelessit sounds like the interface name is wrong?03:24
*** kkito has joined #maemo03:24
kkitohello :)03:24
timelessi suppose i could try to use a debugger03:25
nomistimeless: well, if the method name on the commandline is just "com.nokia.controlpanel.run_method" then the control panel just crashes  :)03:25
timelessum03:25
timelessfile a bug in maemo.org/bugzilla03:26
timelesssteps to reproduce would be simple :)03:26
timelessheck, you have the sources for control panel03:26
timelessyou could build it yourself w/ symbols03:26
kkitoi've ported a cps2 emu to the n800 ;)03:26
timelessyou can probably even use apt-get source since if it's in the xref it's almost certainly available as srcdeb in the repo03:27
timelesshrm03:27
kkitosuper puzzle fighter roolz!03:27
timelesspresumably it crashes because strcmp() doesn't like null pointers03:27
timelessthe code has a DEBUG only early return03:27
timelessbecause the coders who work on osso don't have a clue about glib macros03:27
timelessg_return_val_if_fail (method, OSSO_ERROR);03:28
timelessif ((!strcmp (method, HCP_RPC_METHOD_RUN_APPLET)))03:28
timeless(this is public, you could be reading it from the lxr link i gave a while ago)03:28
timelessit should say if (!method) goto error;03:28
timelessat least, assuming that's what happens03:28
timelessanyway, back to my problem :)03:29
timelesshow do giget debs w/o worrying about dependencies? :)03:29
timelessmaybe i should do --print-uris :)03:30
timelesscurses03:30
neostrider_kkito, this emulator uses SDL?03:30
kkitoneostrider_, yes03:31
*** k-s has joined #maemo03:31
neostrider_and it already had the service and desktop files setup?03:31
kkitoneostrider_, ?03:32
neostrider_the original source already had desktop and service files?03:33
kkitoneostrider_, it is a port from the gp2x version03:33
neostrider_I know little about gp2x =-)03:34
kkitoyesterday i ported gngeo03:34
neostrider_i guess it was just a pure source and some plataform specific  project files, right?03:34
kkitoi only change some source code, and the build rules03:35
neostrider_is the code open?03:38
timelessnomis: so, are you going to apt-get source hildon-control-panel? :)03:38
kkitoyes the source code is gpl03:38
nomistimeless: not yet.03:39
* timeless frowns03:40
timelessthe sandbox i'm using isn't in its own file system, so i can't cheaply ask it how big it is03:40
neostrider_kkito, where can i find it?03:40
kkitoneostrider_, the original gp2x source code or my modifications?03:41
neostrider_your mods03:41
neostrider_please03:41
kkitoneostrider_, well i dont want to make the source public from now because it is very primitive, only some hacks to make the emu to compile and run in the n80003:42
neostrider_oh...ok03:42
kkitothe keys are not ok, the soun is disabled and the image isnt scaled03:42
neostrider_I just want to study the build rules ,etc03:42
neostrider_I more like cps1 ;-)03:42
kkito:)03:43
neostrider_strider ( hence my nickname)03:43
neostrider_etc03:43
* nomis heads for the bed. Too late again :-/03:43
nomistimeless: thanks for your help03:43
timelesssleep.. hrm03:45
timelessgood luck, but please do file a bug about the crash03:45
nomistimeless: will do tomorrow, I just made it known on the mailinglist.03:45
timelessapt-get --download-only --print-uris install '.*' 2>/dev/null | egrep '^Note' | perl -pne 's/.*?selecting //;s/ for regex.*//' | xargs -n1 apt-get --download-only -y --force-yes --allow-unauthenticated install 2>/dev/null >/dev/null03:48
timelessis what i settled on using03:49
* timeless removes the first --print-uris03:50
*** k-s has quit IRC03:50
*** waite has left #maemo03:57
*** SyntaxNinja has quit IRC04:04
*** neostrider_ has quit IRC04:08
*** rince1013 has quit IRC04:09
*** pvanhoof has quit IRC04:10
* gpd tries gpodder04:10
gpdcrunch04:11
*** Sulis has quit IRC04:14
gpdhmm. vpnc seems to have messed up my /etc/resolv.conf04:17
gpdnow, depsite being on a different network entirely it remains04:17
gpdeven rebooting doesn't restore it... /me grumbles04:19
* gpd fixes by hand... 04:21
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo04:25
*** _follower_ has quit IRC04:25
*** lexiyntax has joined #maemo04:26
timelesshrm, looks like my apt-get host doesn't actually have dpkg properly "installed" :(04:26
*** one_red_eye has quit IRC04:27
*** k-s has joined #maemo04:27
*** ajturner has quit IRC04:28
timelesshrm, no, it's just my man path?04:29
*** k-s has quit IRC04:32
timelessanyone here familiar w/ debian?04:41
*** shackan has quit IRC04:44
soleblazetimeless: what are yout rying to do?04:45
timelesswell, i ran into a funny problem04:45
timelessman dpkg led me to man 7 undocumented04:45
timelessdpkg dpkg -L dpkg|grep man/man104:46
timelesserm04:46
timelessdpkg -L dpkg|grep man/man104:46
timelessshowed me that the man page for dpkg was installed04:46
timelessthis threw me for a bad loop04:46
timelessit turns out that i needed to run mandb(as root)04:46
timelessi'm trying to figure out if it's reasonable to suggest man 7 undocumented suggest running mandb04:47
soleblazedon't see why undocumented shouldn't have helpful tips on how to fix the man problem fi it's a problem04:48
timelessi don't suppose you can think of a man page that offers a suggestion04:49
* timeless tries to provide patches04:49
timelessbut that requires knowing the proper style04:49
soleblazenope, sorry04:50
*** shackan has joined #maemo04:57
*** mukund has joined #maemo05:06
*** jacques has joined #maemo05:09
*** jaebird_m has joined #maemo05:21
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo05:26
*** mukund has quit IRC05:26
*** jaebird_m has quit IRC05:27
*** hub has joined #maemo05:35
*** rev has joined #maemo05:59
*** jaebird_m has joined #maemo06:00
*** jaebird_m has quit IRC06:03
*** neurocyte has quit IRC06:04
*** lexiyntax has quit IRC06:05
*** bstock has quit IRC06:25
*** pdz has joined #maemo06:34
*** pdz- has quit IRC06:48
*** bergie has joined #maemo06:48
*** pdz- has joined #maemo06:50
*** shackan has quit IRC06:51
*** pdz has quit IRC06:58
*** makuchaku has joined #maemo07:03
*** pdz has joined #maemo07:08
*** pdz- has quit IRC07:20
*** one_red_eye has joined #maemo07:21
*** rkaway has quit IRC07:27
*** rkaway has joined #maemo07:29
*** rev has quit IRC07:30
*** kkito has quit IRC07:32
*** hauptmech has left #maemo07:37
*** one_red_eye has quit IRC07:44
*** jtokash has joined #maemo07:46
*** pdz- has joined #maemo07:47
jtokashdoes anyone have privoxy working on the n800?07:52
*** xan has quit IRC07:52
*** _matthia1_ has joined #maemo08:00
*** pdz has quit IRC08:00
*** _matthias_ has quit IRC08:00
*** MacSlow has quit IRC08:01
*** bergie has quit IRC08:01
*** dieguito has joined #maemo08:08
*** bmidgley_ is now known as bmidgley|zzz08:15
*** skallen has joined #maemo08:19
*** pdz has joined #maemo08:23
*** keesj has joined #maemo08:24
*** koen|gprs has joined #maemo08:33
*** pdz- has quit IRC08:36
*** bergie has joined #maemo08:42
*** mukund has joined #maemo08:42
*** nelson has quit IRC08:42
jtokashuh oh.  reboot loop08:43
*** bergie has quit IRC08:43
*** bergie has joined #maemo08:49
*** nelson has joined #maemo08:49
*** koen|gprs has quit IRC08:59
jtokashremoving/reinserting the battery seems to have helped09:06
*** _follower_ has quit IRC09:09
*** herzi has joined #maemo09:12
*** dape has joined #maemo09:15
*** NickDe has quit IRC09:23
*** NickDe has joined #maemo09:23
keesjhi09:32
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo09:34
*** _follower_ has quit IRC09:36
*** dieguito has quit IRC09:37
*** dedekind_dead is now known as dedekind09:40
jtokashHi keesj09:41
*** jtokash has left #maemo09:41
keesjwow 3 downloads of xmoto so far. I hope i can cope with the tenstion!09:41
tolgammorning everyone !09:43
tolgam:)09:43
*** philipl is now known as phil|sleep09:44
*** bilboed has joined #maemo09:48
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo09:58
*** sabotage_afk has quit IRC10:01
*** sabotage_afk has joined #maemo10:01
*** booiiing has quit IRC10:03
*** bilboed has quit IRC10:03
*** booiiing has joined #maemo10:05
*** sKaBoy has joined #maemo10:06
*** _matthia1_ is now known as _matthias_10:13
* mukund just got a N800 coupon10:15
mukundmany thanks!10:15
maddlermukund: great!10:21
maddlerhehehe10:21
*** saljam has joined #maemo10:33
*** makuchaku has quit IRC10:38
*** makuchaku has joined #maemo10:39
dwdHappy Mailman day, everyone.10:47
tolgammailman day ?10:59
*** bilboed has joined #maemo11:01
*** dedekind has left #maemo11:05
*** ssvb has joined #maemo11:05
JaffaMorning, all11:06
keesjHi11:08
tolgamyo11:09
*** tolgam has quit IRC11:10
dwd(Mailman Day: The first of the month, when I get about 50 reminders of mailing lists I'm on)11:11
*** _follower_ has quit IRC11:14
*** Rp1 has joined #maemo11:16
*** jpetersen has joined #maemo11:18
*** ssvb has quit IRC11:22
*** bedboi has joined #maemo11:25
bedboihi there11:26
Jaffadwd: :)11:30
*** isrra__ has joined #maemo11:35
*** jonek- has joined #maemo11:37
*** Rp1 has quit IRC11:37
*** skallen has quit IRC11:37
*** hub has quit IRC11:37
*** greentux has quit IRC11:37
*** AndyCap has quit IRC11:37
*** part has quit IRC11:37
*** trickie has quit IRC11:37
*** Paavo has quit IRC11:37
*** jonek has quit IRC11:37
*** shapr has quit IRC11:37
*** mk500 has quit IRC11:37
*** stanlly has quit IRC11:37
*** soleblaze has quit IRC11:37
*** myren_ has quit IRC11:37
*** gpd has quit IRC11:37
*** glassss has quit IRC11:37
*** lle2 has quit IRC11:37
*** Protocol- has quit IRC11:37
*** vigilant1 has quit IRC11:37
*** pyhimys has quit IRC11:37
*** Knowledge_ has quit IRC11:37
*** vidaroni has quit IRC11:37
*** nomis has quit IRC11:37
*** RP has quit IRC11:37
*** Juhaz has quit IRC11:37
*** kaatis has quit IRC11:37
*** toi has quit IRC11:37
*** melmoth has quit IRC11:37
*** jonek- is now known as jonek11:38
*** Juhaz has joined #maemo11:38
*** melmoth has joined #maemo11:38
*** Paavo has joined #maemo11:38
*** AndyCap has joined #maemo11:38
*** stanlly has joined #maemo11:38
*** lle2 has joined #maemo11:38
*** RP has joined #maemo11:38
*** Protocol- has joined #maemo11:38
*** soleblaze has joined #maemo11:38
*** vigilant^ has joined #maemo11:39
*** nomis has joined #maemo11:39
*** skallen has joined #maemo11:39
*** hub has joined #maemo11:39
*** greentux has joined #maemo11:39
*** gpd has joined #maemo11:39
*** trickie has joined #maemo11:39
*** Rp1 has joined #maemo11:39
*** myren_ has joined #maemo11:41
*** bedboi has quit IRC11:43
*** glassss has joined #maemo11:43
*** kaatis has joined #maemo11:43
*** pyhimys has joined #maemo11:43
*** toi has joined #maemo11:43
*** vidaroni has joined #maemo11:43
*** bedboi has joined #maemo11:44
bedboidamn11:44
maddlerwhat?11:44
*** AD-N770 has joined #maemo11:45
*** neurocyte has joined #maemo11:45
AD-N770good morning11:46
*** neurocyte has quit IRC11:46
*** KermitTheFragger has joined #maemo11:48
*** skandaleras has joined #maemo12:05
*** sp3000 has joined #maemo12:07
*** neurocyte has joined #maemo12:09
*** sp3000 has quit IRC12:13
*** sp3000 has joined #maemo12:14
*** skallen has quit IRC12:15
*** skallen has joined #maemo12:16
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo12:21
JaffaAnyone tried any packages from http://armel-debs.applieddata.net/debian/ on a Maemo device yet?12:24
*** fab has joined #maemo12:25
maddlerJaffa: not...12:29
*** Eloi has joined #maemo12:30
maddlerJaffa: nice packages...12:30
*** jpetersen has quit IRC12:34
*** skandaleras has quit IRC12:39
*** mukund has quit IRC12:48
*** Piega` has joined #maemo13:02
maddlerPiega`! :D13:07
maddlerwelcome on MaemoPeople! :D13:08
maddleruh oh...13:12
maddlerlooks like a flashing session is on the horizon...13:12
Jaffaoh?13:13
Piega`:D13:13
maddlerdunno... sometimes the device locks while booting...13:13
Piega`but ihaven't a blog on maemoppl13:13
Piega`:P13:13
maddlerand since I'm playing with boot scripts... ;)13:13
maddlerPiega`: have you asked for one already? ;)13:14
Piega`no :D13:14
*** zbenjamin has joined #maemo13:14
maddlerpfff... italians...13:14
Piega`hahahah13:14
maddleralways complaining... and nerver acting! :DDD13:14
timelessping :)13:15
* timeless is looking for help using apt-get to just download a deb by name w/o getting the requisite dependencies (just download, not install)13:16
keesjmaddler, I am going to try anyway :p13:16
jcml_timeless: does maemo's apt-get support "--print-uris"?13:16
maddler--download-only13:16
Piega`maddler, http://www.pubfoto.com/Immagini/italiano13:17
Piega`and http://www.pubfoto.com/Immagini/Italian13:18
maddlercpnkpnk -> Cpunkpunk?13:18
timeless--download-only doesn't work13:21
timelessbecause it errors first complaining about the dependnecy13:21
timelesss/nec/enc/13:21
timelesssame for --print-uris13:23
timelessthe problem is that the error happens first13:23
timelesstimeless@nexenta:~$ apt-get -c /home/timeless/apt-sb.conf --download-only -y --force-yes --allow-unauthenticated install --print-uris maemo-browser-dialogs-dbg13:23
timelessThe following packages have unmet dependencies: maemo-browser-dialogs-dbg: Depends: maemo-browser-dialogs (= 2:0.4.12-1) but it is not going to be installed13:23
timelessE: Broken packages13:24
jcml_Have you tried --force-ignore-errors-you-pedantic-bastard ?13:24
dwdtimeless: apt-cache showpkg or apt-cache show will show you the URI, IIRC.13:25
timelessneither show the uri13:26
timelessand neither accepts --print-uris13:26
dwdHmmm. Oh, no, it won't.13:26
timelessjcml: sounds tempting13:26
timelessshow would work13:26
jcml_timeless: if only ... :)13:26
timelesssince i can piece it together from Filename13:26
jcml_timeless: are you looking for a one off fix, or a repeatable solution?13:27
timelessjcml: repeatable solution13:27
timelesswhich will be used a couple of hundred times in a row13:27
timelessby a script that may run a dozen times a day13:27
*** skandaleras has joined #maemo13:27
*** ab has joined #maemo13:27
timelesspossibly 5 or 6 days a week when i'm really unlucky13:27
jcml_well, "apt-cache show $pkg"  give you a "Filename:" line with the remote path on the server, and "apt-cache policy $pkg" give you the host.  There's a /bit/ missing, but might be a step forward ...13:30
timelessi kinda already know the host13:30
jcml_oh.  Do you know where the URI /starts/?13:31
*** jpetersen has joined #maemo13:32
timelessi have the sources.list entry13:32
timelessthat + filename = file13:32
jcml_Could you not do: wget $HOST/`apt-cache show $pkg | grep "^Filename:" | cut -f2-10 -d":" | sed "s/^ *//" | sed "s/ *$//"`13:33
timelesspolicy is actually not right13:33
timelesspolicy is missing useful things like /repository/13:34
timelessso my sources.list entry is more useful13:34
jcml_Is the above any use?13:35
timelessdoes apt-get do any bookkeeping for files it puts into /var/cache/apt/archives/ ?13:35
timelessi'm proficient in perl, i can easily do that part myself :)13:35
jcml_:)13:35
timelessthe hint about apt-cache show is mildly useful13:35
timelessalthough still fairly stupid in my book13:36
jcml_:)13:36
suihkulokkitimeless: libapt-pkg-perl =)13:37
* jcml_ :: Mildly useful for over 8.8E+08 seconds13:38
timelessum13:38
timelessThe following NEW packages will be installed: libapt-pkg-perl13:39
* timeless waits13:39
* suihkulokki farts13:40
timelessYou need to install the perl-doc package to use this program.13:40
* timeless goes on a shopping spree, buying libapt-pkg-perl, perl-doc, groff, and a 16port switch13:41
suihkulokkican you apt-get a switch too?13:42
timelesswell, if i had a web interface, i could use the web for everything13:43
* timeless isn't sure about a web apt interface13:43
timelessit probably exists13:43
keesjperhaps in webmin13:44
*** _espi_ has joined #maemo13:44
*** nelson has quit IRC13:44
*** nelson has joined #maemo13:45
timelesssuihkulokki: so, does AptPkg:: actually help me?13:47
suihkulokkiabsolutely no idea13:48
timelesswhat i need is allowbroken13:50
*** kabtoffe_ has joined #maemo13:54
*** _espi_ has left #maemo13:54
*** mgedmin has joined #maemo13:56
*** vivijim has joined #maemo14:00
*** MoRpHeUz has joined #maemo14:01
*** etrunko has joined #maemo14:03
mgedminwhat exactly does "order status: in progress" mean in the nokiausa shop?14:04
*** part has joined #maemo14:04
dwdHow fast does the standard SD support go on the N800?14:05
*** skandaleras is now known as skanda_lunch14:09
*** dape has quit IRC14:11
*** dape has joined #maemo14:14
c0ffeedeveloper device program closing in about 24h14:15
c0ffeeif you want to apply, do it now :)14:15
*** user_ has joined #maemo14:18
bedboia question to nokia developers: is there a real reason for not backporting alarmd to os2006?14:19
Jaffabedboi: I'd guess the answers would be: a) it's part of OS2007, b) "we are, see the 770 hacker edition"14:20
*** lardman|gone is now known as lardman14:21
*** vivijim has quit IRC14:21
lardmanUnless there's some hw issue too14:21
bedboialarmd api is quite useful for gpe-calendar14:22
*** Rp1 has quit IRC14:23
*** luck has joined #maemo14:24
dwdHmmm. Let me rephrase my question - in a stock N800, is there any point my buying a ~20M/s SD card over a ~3M/s card?14:25
*** nelson has quit IRC14:25
mgedmindwd: IIRC thoughtfix posted some SD transfer speed benchmarks on his blog14:26
*** monteslu has joined #maemo14:26
mgedminwhich seems to be down at the moment14:26
dwdYay, Boo, respectively.14:26
mgedmingoogle cache? ;)14:26
mgedminIIRC n800 does not use the full potential speed of SD cards14:27
mgedminthere was a kernel patch for that14:27
dwdAh, I thought the kernel patch did SDHC.14:27
mgedminbut you can put the SD card in some other reader14:27
mgedminmaybe that's another patch14:27
keesjwhat would be a good place to ask x11 questions *I want a fake mouse pointer*14:28
* mgedmin is usually more concerned about capacity than speed, so /me wasn't paying attention14:28
lardmankeesj: I remember seeing a ml post about this14:28
lardmansomething to do with the pointer exsting, but being transparent14:28
keesjlardman, yes, I have read those but was not happy about the answers14:29
*** MoRpHeUz has quit IRC14:29
*** lele has quit IRC14:29
*** MoRpHeUz has joined #maemo14:30
*** lele has joined #maemo14:32
*** tolgam has joined #maemo14:32
Jaffalardman: re h/w for alarmd, remember that the original alarmd designs were being discussed on m-d wrt the 77014:32
mgedminperhaps it would be enough to recompile the alarmd debs for scirocco and put them in maemo extras?14:34
JaffaMight be. Is the Maemo 3 components' source available yet?14:35
*** user_ has quit IRC14:38
lardmanJaffa: Yep, I remember that, just a thought14:42
*** lardman is now known as lardman|lunch14:42
*** krau has quit IRC14:52
*** epx has joined #maemo14:58
*** toi has quit IRC15:01
*** toi has joined #maemo15:04
*** krau has joined #maemo15:06
*** mukund has joined #maemo15:08
nomishmm, how do I get dbus-monitor to show all messages? Starting as root it does not seem to be able to connect to the session bus.15:10
*** nelson has joined #maemo15:10
*** _follower_ has quit IRC15:13
*** zbenjamin has quit IRC15:16
*** saljam has left #maemo15:16
*** Ryback_ has joined #maemo15:22
*** Ryback__ has joined #maemo15:22
*** Ryback_ has joined #maemo15:23
*** sKaBoy has quit IRC15:25
*** etrunko has quit IRC15:27
*** sKaBoy has joined #maemo15:27
*** etrunko has joined #maemo15:32
*** mukund has quit IRC15:33
*** sKaBoy has quit IRC15:33
*** mukund has joined #maemo15:34
*** k-s has joined #maemo15:34
*** sKaBoy has joined #maemo15:34
*** bugmaker has joined #maemo15:40
bugmakerJust picked up a new N800 - sorry if this is off topic, but I cannot figure out how to get the memory card (the one that came with the N800) into the internal memory slot (the slot under the batter cover).  Any suggestions?  Contacts up or down?  Mitered corner to the left or right?15:44
robtaylornomis: you'd need a seperate dbus-monitor running for the system bus and the session bus15:44
dwdbugmaker: Contacts down, near the bottom of the N800.15:45
dwdbugmaker: So, label is visible but upside down.15:45
bugmakerHey - it just sort of popped in, maybe I shouldn't have been playing with it at 3:00 in the morning :-)  Thanks dwd15:46
nomisrobtaylor: the problem seems to be, that the dbus-monitor running as root cannot connect to the session-bus of the user.15:46
dwdbugmaker: NP, took me a while to figure it out too. :-)15:46
nomisrobtaylor: when I start it as user I have the impression that I don't see the message I am interested in.15:46
robtaylornomis: if youre connecting to the sessoin bus, you should run as the user15:48
*** bugmaker has quit IRC15:48
robtaylornomis: are you sure the message you're interested in is on teh session bus?15:48
nomisrobtaylor: well, I've looked at both the system and the session bus.15:48
robtaylornomis: also, what version dbus are you running?15:48
nomisrobtaylor: whatever is installed on the N800.15:48
* robtaylor doesn't have one in front of him to check15:49
nomisrobtaylor: I am looking for the message that invokes the display control applet.15:49
robtaylordbus-daemon --version15:49
robtaylorits probably 0.7x, in which case dbus-monitor is broken15:49
nomisoh.15:50
nomisNo, it is 0.6115:50
robtayloreven worse15:50
nomisheh, ok  :)15:50
robtaylorwhat you can do is build dbus 1.x in scratchbox15:51
robtaylorcopy over teh dbus-monitor binary and the libdbus-1.so.315:51
robtaylorand do LD_LIBRARY_PATH={patch to libdbus-1.so.3) ./dbus-monitor15:52
robtaylor(--session/--system as appropriate)15:52
nomiserf.15:52
* robtaylor hopes for an OS update with a newer dbus15:52
robtaylors/patch/path15:52
*** lardman|lunch is now known as lardman15:52
nomisso the broken dbus might actually be the reason why my dbus-send command is not working.15:53
robtaylornomis: hm,, well dbus-send can't send some message types15:54
robtaylornomis: but the 0.61 versoin doesn have any big bugs, iirc15:54
nomisrobtaylor: hmm.15:55
*** benzea has joined #maemo15:55
*** skanda_lunch is now known as skandaleras15:56
*** NickDe has quit IRC15:56
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo15:57
*** tolgam has quit IRC16:00
*** kkito has joined #maemo16:02
kkitohello16:03
*** wrap has joined #maemo16:12
wraphi everyone. i'm just starting out with scatchbox-0.9.8.8 and maemo-2.1 (scirocco)16:13
wrapI have tried to compile maemopad application under a HOST (native x86) target but see some compilation iisues/problems with gtk and gdk headers16:14
wrapare there known problems with this release ?16:15
veliwrap: at least update to scratchbox apophis...16:15
kaatiswrap, you can use the scratchbox installer from bora http://repository.maemo.org/stable/bora/maemo-scratchbox-install_3.0.sh16:15
kaatiswrap, host target (with host gcc) is used to build stuff for scratchbox devkits16:16
wrapI am building for OS 2006 not OS 2007 so need scratchbox-0.9.8.x not 1.0.1 ??16:16
mgedminthe new 2.2 SDK requires scratchbox 1.016:16
mgedminso you can have both 2.2 and 3.0 SDKs side-by-side with the same scratchbox16:17
wrapok i'm not using latest release then.16:17
kaatiswrap, you can use the newer one as well, it has the same toolchain16:17
mgedminjust create separate targets16:17
mgedminthe 2.1 SDK also appears to work with scratchbox 1.016:17
mgedminalthough officially it requires 0.9.816:17
wraph'mm do you advise going to scratchbox apophis and maemo-2.2 then ?16:18
wrapI installed apophis yesteday and then doubting taht itwas backwards compatible I removed it and installed scratchbox-0.9.8.8 believing that this would be nmore compatible with scirocco release.16:21
wrapOh well looks as though scratchbox apophis was what I should have stayed with.16:22
lardmanAnyone familiar with Java? If so, any ideas what the odd names on these files relate to?: http://i30www.ira.uka.de/p2p/ambicomp/phoneME_Nokia770/16:22
glassssodd names?16:23
lardmanDo the names mean anything?16:23
lardmancyclops, etc.?16:23
lardmanthe cyclops one never actually starts applets while the one above works fine (command line stuff)16:24
* lardman was trying to build classpath last night and stumbled on these things that already work :)16:24
glassssit's other build version that's just named so16:24
glassssor so16:24
*** Eloi has quit IRC16:25
*** benzea has quit IRC16:34
*** vivijim has joined #maemo16:36
*** hub has quit IRC16:44
VRewhere is this new 2.2 SDK? I can't see it in http://repository.maemo.org/stable/16:45
*** msk_ has joined #maemo16:46
mgedminoh, it wasn't released yet?16:47
*** epx has quit IRC16:48
mgedminthey promised it in January 200716:48
mgedminI must've mixed up the OS2006.3 announcement with SDK 2.2 announcement16:48
*** kabtoffe_ has quit IRC16:49
msk_can anyone enlightened tell me what possible use the lifeguard reset feature could have? :)16:49
*** NickDe has joined #maemo16:50
mgedminsome process crashes16:50
VReresetting the device when is stuck?16:50
mgedmina reboot fixes things16:50
mgedminclueless end-user doesn't know enough about the device to realise he needs to reboot16:50
mgedminhe just sees a device that doesn't function in some way16:50
msk_well yeah, but as I understand it it does the reset _at_ boot16:51
Veggenhmm. Perhaps one should just turn off lifeguard-resets completely...16:51
msk_so it's very likely to fail again because it will boot in exactly the same way16:51
mgedminif it triggers at boot time, then you have broken the device in some way16:51
mgedminonly reflash or a large helping of cluefulness will unbreak it16:51
msk_well I only got it yesterday.. and yeah, I had to reflash it16:52
msk_all I had had time to do was install gizmo and unsuccessfully try to install that calendar app16:52
msk_(that's in the applications 2007 catalog, don't remember the name offhand..)16:53
VReatleast for me the lifeguard seemed bit to fast, sometimes a bit of waiting made the device to work16:53
msk_I dunno, I just read somewhere that it will activate if booting takes too long16:53
mgedminhmm16:54
mgedminthat's interesting16:54
kulvemsk_: it's not that simple16:54
msk_and that installing certain applications will make it take longer at boot... if that's the case then the concept seems a bit fragile :)16:54
kulveif the dsme doesn't ping the hardware frequently enough, it is reseted16:55
msk_maybe not.. it was a random web forum, but info is a bit scarce16:55
kulveif some important daemon crashes (which cannot be just started back up), dsme restarts the device16:55
msk_kulve: ok, thanks for the clarification..16:57
msk_I'm still not sure what I could have done with the device yesterday though that could have caused that this morning :)16:57
*** tolgam has joined #maemo16:58
kulvemsk_: there are quite a lot of bugs that causes annoying resets. Reset loops are more rare though16:58
kulvefilling the flash can cause bad things, but that shouldn't happen easily.16:59
msk_hmm, could retrieving the headers of a large mailbox have been the reason?17:00
kulvenothing should be. The dsme is daemon that should run just nicely on the background pinging the hw.17:01
msk_cos I left it to do that, then when it seemed like it wasn't getting anywhere I stopped it... maybe it wasn't getting anywhere cos it ran out of memory?17:01
kulveor do you mean filling the flash?17:01
msk_well, filling the flast and subsequently making dsme crash or whatever17:02
kulverunning out of memory slows the whole thing down a much, so that can cause bad things too17:02
msk_er, flash17:02
msk_didn't notice much of a slowdown17:02
kulvehave you enabled swap?17:02
kulveon the internal mmc17:02
msk_haven't done anything to the basic settings17:03
msk_don't even know where to do that :)17:03
kulvecontrol panel's memory plugin17:04
kulveI put the 112M swap on the 128M card that came with the device and bought a bigger card for actual use..17:04
msk_hm, yeah, that would be logical17:04
msk_ok.. should do that myself..17:05
*** bmidgley|zzz has quit IRC17:06
mgedminthat's a lot of swap17:07
mgedminI have 64 megs of swap on my 77017:07
mgedminI haven't ever seen it use half of that17:07
kulvemgedmin: well, I don't have anything else to do with the internal card :)17:07
mgedminheh17:07
mgedminbackups?17:08
kulvemaybe.. Atm I don't have anything to backup and if I do a backup I can use the external 2G card..17:09
Takmeh, my 770 is spontaneously rebooting not17:09
Taks/t$/w/17:09
Tak*often*17:10
*** Setok has joined #maemo17:11
Setokörrör17:11
*** phil|sleep is now known as philipl17:11
dwdOh. Running python2.5 in the SDK_ARMEL target is strange - "/usr/bin/python2.5 setup.py build" causes that to be argv[] - so python is laucnhed as setup.py and tries to interpret build.17:11
kulveSetok: whole fishpool is joining here, it seems..17:11
Setokkulve: yeah :-)17:12
Setokkulve: we're all having our problems with the n80017:12
kulvedon't we all :)17:12
msk_when one of us finds it, the horde is set loose..17:12
SetokI guess..17:12
Veggenkulve: My strategy is storage-intensive application data (think your Maemo mapper cached maps when out travelling), mp3's, e-books etc. on the external one, more permanent application data on the internal.17:12
Setokto be honest, I'm just slightly disappointed with the n800. with great software it could be so much more17:12
VeggenSetok: it's a base. Now, developers will have to make it better.17:13
Setokveggen: true, but that works up to a point. The base software should be excellent to make it more appealing17:13
Setokespecially to the non-nerds17:13
kulveSetok: yeah, the "built-in" software is pretty thin17:13
mgedminyes, but this is not a perfect world17:13
Takit's not?!17:14
tzzdwd: how do you install python 2.5 in the SDK_ARMEL target?  It's 2.3 by default.  Do I add some repositories?  I couldn't find that info.17:14
mgedminthe difference between os2005 and os2006 is encouraging17:14
mgedminwe may yet get perfect software for the n800 in 200817:14
Setokkulve: btw. any cool projects hanging around? would like to hear about any interesting positions or whatever17:14
mgedmino maybe n999 in 201617:14
dwdtzz: There's some Stuff about it on the pymaemo garage site. http://respository.maemo.org/extras/ bora free non-free17:14
msk_will the n800 be better supported on future upgrades than the 770 btw?17:14
tzzbtw, has anyone else noticed the python2.5-runtime package can't install on the N800?  It depends on libbluetooth1 but libbluetooth2 is installed.17:14
Veggenmgedmin: Or even later this year.17:14
msk_(not sure if nokia has any position on that)17:14
tzzthanks dwd17:15
Veggenmgedmin: There's bound to be things that they didn't finish until release.17:15
kulveSetok: what kind of projects..?17:15
dwdmsk_: Four upgrades, including one major, inside about 18 months? That's pretty tough to beat. :-)17:15
*** part has quit IRC17:15
Setokkulve: UI design / code17:15
keesjHow can a developer mailing list exist if they can not be open about what they are doing?17:15
msk_dwd: well I only just got mine, so I'm mostly interested about the future :)17:15
kulvemsk_: the 770 is just 770. The n800 is part of the nseries. But of course that may mean nothing..17:16
kulveSetok: garage.maemo.org is full of projects hanging around ;)17:16
Setokkulve: I meant like work-wise17:16
Setokthrough Fishpool or direct17:16
SetokI mean, my free time is 100% filled with cool stuff as it is :)17:16
msk_kulve: yeah, and it seems a more "release" type product all around.. except the builtin software :)17:16
kulveSetok: not really..17:17
Setokkulve: too bad. if something comes up, though, I might be interested17:17
kulveSetok: sure17:17
SetokI've been thinking about porting Tcl to the n800. Any ideas if anyone has already attempted that?17:18
Setokcould build a Tcl extension for the GUI stuff as well. Might be interesting as a weekend project at some point17:18
kulveeverybody is just talking about python..17:18
Takgtk bindings for tcl...on one hand it makes me shudder, but on the other, it'd look better than tk17:19
Setokyeah, it's the #1 script language for it, I guess, but Tcl rules17:19
SetokTcl is, in all seriousness, one of the most underrated languages ther eis17:19
mgedminnot lisp?17:20
Setoklisp isn't underrated17:20
tzzsetok: tcl/tk is amazingly powerful.  I've worked with some very advanced medical software implemented in tcl/tk.17:20
Setokit's just not used much :)17:20
Setoktzz: yeah. I haven't done that much with Tk, although what I've done has been pretty nice and easy17:21
Setokbut I've done a fair bit with Tcl itself17:21
*** herzi has quit IRC17:21
tzzsetok: we're talking 3D MRI imaging, serious stuff.  Eventually it got ported to C++ and OpenGL, but it still has a lot of tcl APIs17:21
Setokcool17:22
tzz(it's called the 3D Slicer, open-source software, see slicer.org)17:22
Setok'slicer' -- nice name for a Doctor's software :)17:23
Setoktzz: I don't know anything about the field, but looks very convincing17:24
tzzheh yes, they named it after the image slices it does through 3D volumes.  Anyhow, I was just saying Tcl/Tk is very useful.  Tivo also uses it a lot.17:24
Setokyeah, Tivo is another big one. Cisco apparently too17:25
SetokI got into Tcl back in my Tellabs days17:27
Setokthey wre using it there to run their test systems17:27
Setokback then I just thought of it as "something that does the job", but later I've come to appreciate it on other levels too17:27
*** hub has joined #maemo17:28
JussiPSome friends of mine who have used tcl say the syntax/quirks makes their brain implode.17:29
*** part has joined #maemo17:29
Setokjussi: it will if you think of it as a C language, which it's not. The syntax is actually very beautiful in the sense that there are very few rules17:29
Setokthe whole language is defined with 11 definitions17:30
Setokif, while, procedure definition etc... they are all just commands without any special syntax17:30
mgedminsort of like lisp, isn't it?17:30
Setokyeah17:30
Disconnectthat doesn't make it good :)17:31
Setoklisp with fewer parenthesis :)17:31
* Disconnect learned it for tivo way back when. it was like learning basic - totally screwed me up when i went back to real languages17:31
Setokdisconnect: depends on your definition. it gives you a lot of power and quite honestly it's the easiest language to extend with C17:31
timelesskulve: create a core-dumps directory in the root of your internal card and collect crashes :)17:32
Setokbasic OTOH has piles of different mini-syntaxes :)17:32
kulvetimeless: or external..?17:33
Disconnecti found python to be real easy to extend. took about 2 hours to do a full libxmms mapper a couple years back17:33
Disconnecthaven't tried extending tcl tho, so..17:33
Setokwell, tcl was built originally from the ground up for extensions :)17:34
SetokI don't know if Python has a stubs library yet?17:34
Setokor do extensions still need to be recompiled when the Python core is updated?17:34
valtsuargh, I need to hang on some C/C++ channels instead of this Tcl/Python nonsense channel ;)17:35
c0ffee:)17:35
Takvaltsu: agreed!17:35
* Setok is eagerly looking for work-related excused to do some Objective C!17:35
timelessveggen: i have a couple hundred mb of maps on my 770's card :)17:35
valtsuluckily I can also build boats instead of software :D17:36
*** behdad has joined #maemo17:36
nelsonwoot woot!  UPS came!  And brought happy crunchy goodness!17:36
nelsonAll Nokia employees, stand up and take a bow.17:36
timelesskulve: if you change the system so that it has /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern pointing to external, otherwise, no17:37
keesjcongrat!17:37
timelessnelson: nokia employees are in finland and have nothing to todo w/ UPS17:37
nelsonhehe.17:37
timelessbut do enjoy your new toy17:37
mgedmincrunchy?  YOU ATE YOUR N800???17:37
Takrofl17:37
timelessin fact, ii suspect most employees wouldn't know what ups is17:37
c0ffeei ate the stylus17:37
c0ffeethe 770 styles was more tasty17:37
jcml_Dammit.  I want *my* devices hand delivered by the coders :|17:38
mgedmintimeless: why, *everybody* knows it's uninterruptible power supply17:38
timelessstylii i believe17:38
nelsonYes, the N800 is a VERY sweet piece of hardware.17:38
*** part has quit IRC17:38
* cesman seconds that17:39
Takcrunchy AND sweet...now it sounds like a breakfast cereal17:39
kulvetimeless: on my n800, I created the dir to external card without changing initfs and cores emerged there17:39
timelessoops, oh right17:40
*** tenshiKur0 has joined #maemo17:40
timelesssorry, i'm used to my n800s which have broken external slots so i symlinked the external to the internal17:40
*** jacques has quit IRC17:41
keesjwhat is the xset770 program?17:41
mgedminquestion for people who ordered their n800s online: what's the progression of values for "order status"?17:41
mgedminkeesj: a subset of xset that only allows you to enable/disable autorepeating for certain keys17:41
keesjxset770 reboot off17:42
nelsonmgedmin: Went straight from "In progress" to "Shipped" for me.17:42
Takkeesj: argh, no kidding17:43
mgedminnelson: how long was it in progress?17:43
mgedmin(in days)17:44
nelson0.1 days17:44
mgedminhmm17:44
nelsonI would call the 866 number.17:44
mgedminmine is "in progress" since yesterday17:44
*** skallen has quit IRC17:44
*** eeejay_ has joined #maemo17:44
*** eeejay has quit IRC17:52
msk_amigaos vois tehdä comebackin mobiililaitteissa17:53
msk_oops17:53
msk_silly epic17:53
Setokuse a better IRC client ;->17:54
Stregmsk_: Well that's and interesting idea :)17:54
msk_bah, it was good in 1997, it's good now17:55
msk_streg: possibly, was just a random thought17:55
Streg:)17:56
SetokAmigaOS -- pah. Let's install TOS on it!17:56
Setokor even better, MultiTOS17:56
Setokthat'd rule17:56
* robtaylor looks fearfully at Setok 17:56
Setokahh.. the good old days17:58
robtaylorSetok: bad old days surely? the St was only fun when you wre poking the graphics chip directly17:58
robtaylor=)17:59
msk_umm yeah.. an AUTO folder on the flash17:59
* dwd looks at the virtual keyboard, wondering which key to use as Symbol Shift.17:59
dwdOh, no! No multitouch! How would we get into Extended Mode for BEEP?17:59
Setokrob: actually, I went from an Amiga to an ST18:00
robtaylorSetok: heh, i was STFM->STE->Falcon18:00
Setokthis was in the 1.3 days. I pulled out too may hairs with the buggy stuff and Amigas really should be used with harddrives..18:00
Setokthe Falcon ruled :)18:00
kulvewhat's the best uptime people have get with their n800?18:01
SetokI'm still pissed off we never released our demo on the Falcon18:01
robtaylorSetok: apart from memory bandwidth18:01
Setok(someone made a video file of the effects, though, but texturemapping I think was missing and stuff)18:01
Setokrob: yeah :P18:01
*** _follower_ has quit IRC18:01
Setokrob: we worked out it might be cool to have a cable going from the DSP port to the SCSI port. That way you'd get more bandwidth direct from the DSP into DMA :)18:02
robtaylorheh, that sounds liek it'd have been a cool hack :)18:02
SetokI think part of the idea was that you wouldn't have to go through the CPU18:02
Setokthe DSP was very cool for stuff18:02
robtaylorSetok: rember the rotating scaling tile demo?18:02
Setokyeah18:03
robtaylorthe other week i saw that replicated on a C64...18:03
Setokwell, there were several that did that18:03
Setokrob: yup. Chances are I might know the guys :)18:03
X-Fadekulve: About a day?18:03
robtaylori was slightly shocked18:03
robtaylorSetok: heh, probly18:03
SetokI guess you haven't heard viznut's speec synthesiser demo on a Vic-20?18:04
kulveX-Fade: something like that yeah. I have heard about some many reboots, that probably that's about the best..18:04
*** behdad has quit IRC18:04
Setokviznut has done like textured tunnels and voxel landscapes and stuff on a measly vic-20 ):18:04
Setok:)18:04
X-Fadekulve: Every morning my N800 just shows a desktop. So it must have been rebooted overnight.18:05
Setokkulve: uptime here is >1 day atm18:05
kulveSetok: well, it'll boot soon ;)18:05
Setokthen again, it's not like I've actively been pushing it18:05
Setokdamn18:05
kulvetomorrow morning 060018:05
Setokoh?18:05
kulveSetok: you don't need to push it even..18:05
*** koen|gprs has joined #maemo18:05
Setokany reason why it would do that?18:05
robtaylorSetok: no, but i do remeber speech synths on the spectrum and BBC18:06
kulveSetok: My device booted 0600 on the first morning without any reason..18:06
kulvewoke me up18:06
sp3000I don't think I've seen resets more than ~1/wk18:06
X-FadeI have been woken up a few times by my N800. Nice Nokia boot sound.18:06
Setokkulve: Ok. could be it did that here too, but I'm faaast asleep at 0600 :)18:06
*** KevinVerma has joined #Maemo18:06
kulveX-Fade: I have now all sound effects switched off18:06
kulveSetok: login and check uptime ;)18:07
Setokrob: would you happen to know how to get in contact with clive sinclair? ;-)18:07
sp3000hello kulve :)18:07
kulvehello..18:07
* sp3000 <-- tuukka, with his weird old nick18:07
kulveoh18:07
Setokkulve: I don't have any shells or anything installed (yet). Is there somewhere to check that stuff with the default apps?18:07
kulveSetok: not really18:08
dwdSetok: Either "Sir Clive", or "Uncle Clive", depending on how old you are.18:08
KevinVermaHello, can someone pls suggest me N800/770 screen pixel size ?18:08
kulveyou can browse something with opera, but not much..18:08
KevinVermaI am creating some plucker documents for off-line reading18:08
Setokdwd: hm, I guess uncle clive then18:08
robtaylorSetok: i hear he still lives in cambridge, but i havn't seen him around recently ;)18:08
X-FadeKevinVerma: About 220 dpi.18:08
Setokrob: he has invented a new bike thingy18:09
dwdrobtaylor: Last I heard he was looking into portable computing.18:09
* robtaylor lives <1k from the old sinclair research building18:09
KevinVermaX-Fade, how do i translate into n X n pixels ?18:09
robtaylorhe doesnt seems to knwo much about websites:18:10
robtaylorhttp://www.sinclair-research.co.uk/18:10
kulveKevinVerma: are you asking about the resolution or about the size of a pixel?18:10
Setoksomeone got tcl/tk to run on the 77018:11
Setokso I guess 800 should be OK18:11
Setokhttp://wiki.tcl.tk/1540818:11
kulvehmm.. I think the "resolution" here isn't very specific word..18:12
kulveSetok: surely it's runn18:12
X-FadeKevinVerma: It's resolution is 800x480. At 220 dpi. It's 0.0115 cm per pixel :)18:12
kulve-n18:12
dwdDoes becomeroot work on the N800?18:12
*** RpJ has quit IRC18:12
*** RpJ has joined #maemo18:13
dwdX-Fade: Actually, its resolution is 220dpi, really. The screen width and height are 800 and 480 respectively.18:13
kulvedwd: I use sshd and logging through the wlan..18:13
*** pbrook has joined #maemo18:13
kulvedwd: I mean generally.. not that wiki instruction stuff..18:13
dwdkulve: dropbear, or red-pill/openssh?18:14
kulvedwd: I've been using red-pill/openssh18:14
kulvedunno which is better..18:14
*** sbaturzioAtWork has joined #maemo18:14
pbrookI'm trying to ssh into my n800 over wireless, and it doesn't seem to be working. Works fine connecting locally from the n800, but the connection hangs from elsewhere.18:15
dwdpbrook: Firewalled somewhere?18:15
pbrookIt appears that when I cause network activity on the n800 it works, but if the n800 isn't transmitting anything the connectin blocks.18:15
pbrookI'm Don't think it's firewall 'cos I've got other machines on the same wireless that work fine.18:16
*** tenshiKur0 has quit IRC18:17
tzzdwd: becomeroot works on the N800.18:17
pbrookAlso, when I do "ping n800", the first 20 or so packets get dropped, then it starts responding.18:20
KevinVermaX-Fade, thanks18:20
dwdIs there some magic to make packages "compatible" with Bora/Maemo that I've forgotten?18:20
*** kender has joined #maemo18:20
dwdI've got two Python extensions that dpkg installs, but the app manager refuses to.18:21
Takput them in section user/something ?18:21
kenderhello18:21
jaitdwd: other than the "Section: user/*" ?18:21
kulvedwd: the red pill stuff18:21
dwdjait: Ah, for some reason I thought that merely supressed listing.18:21
pbrookIt feels like the n800 wireless interface isn't waking form low-power mode properly except when the network traffic is initiated from the n800.18:21
KevinVermadwd, X-Fade what should be an ideal nXn size for making plucker docs for 770 or n800 ?18:21
tigertif YourApp depends on foolib it gets installed by app installer whn you install YourApp18:22
X-FadeKevinVerma: I really don't get what you want to do..18:22
sbaturzioAtWorkAloha!18:22
kulvepbrook: it should work ok..18:22
tigertkevin, screen size is 800x48018:23
KevinVermaX-Fade, I am making plucker documents for reading with FBreader18:23
kulvepbrook: i.e. works for me18:23
dwdtigert: Ah, okay, so non-user/* are allowed as dependencies, but not as user-installable directly.18:23
KevinVermatigert, you mean 800x400 pixels ?18:23
tigertdwd, that is the idea. they need to be in a repo of course.18:23
tigertkevin, yes18:23
dwdtigert: Sure. Thanks.18:23
KevinVermatigert, thanks i'll go ahead give a try and put up on wiki later18:24
kulve800x480 is the full resolution/whatever18:24
kulveof course title bar etc takes a bit from it if not in full screen mode18:24
mgedminwhy does plucker need the screen resolution?  to resize images?18:24
tigertthe toolbar for browser is something, 50 pixels tall?18:24
tigerti dont remember now18:25
mgedminthe tutorial had all the pixel measurements iirc18:25
KevinVermamgedmin, thanks for that i'm too dumb just noticed that with sunrisexp too18:25
Takyeah, the fs and non-fs resolutions are in the tutorial18:25
KevinVermathis is sure for image display settings18:26
*** philipl is now known as phil|out18:26
*** ab has quit IRC18:28
*** _follower_ has joined #maemo18:29
sp3000tigert: 58px, says innerHeight18:29
*** _follower_ has quit IRC18:30
pbrookIt definitely seems like the wireless interface stops working a couple of seconds of inactivity, and only outgoing traffic wakes it up :-(18:30
wumpushuh, are you sure, I was perfectly able to ssh to it18:34
kulvepbrook: that sure does sound wrong behaviour. And I again suggest installing syslog, since icd logs a lot there. It's a bit cryptic thoug18:35
Setokhm, even with screen lock on, the screen lights up from touches18:38
Setokand without a hard case that's likely to happen a lot..18:38
*** epx has joined #maemo18:39
* Jaffa takes the opportunity to moan about video playback on the N800 some more: https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=99118:40
*** koen|gprs_ has joined #maemo18:40
pbrookkulve: nothing relevant in syslog.18:42
*** wrap has quit IRC18:48
*** zuh has quit IRC18:50
*** zuh has joined #maemo18:50
*** koen|gprs__ has joined #maemo18:50
*** bmidgley_ has joined #maemo18:51
*** spaetz_ has joined #maemo18:52
*** spaetz has quit IRC18:52
*** bergie has quit IRC18:52
*** zuh has quit IRC18:53
*** zuh has joined #maemo18:56
*** koen|gprs_ has quit IRC18:56
*** koen|gprs has quit IRC19:00
keesjI am searching for xmkmf to build a program in scratchbox. is that available somewhere?19:01
*** fab has quit IRC19:01
Takxutils-dev package19:03
keesjand how can I avoid such questions next time?19:03
keesj‰19:03
TakI ran a search on packages.debian.org19:03
Takthere's probably a way involving apt-file as well19:04
*** zuh has quit IRC19:04
*** sabotage_afk is now known as sabotage19:04
*** zuh has joined #maemo19:05
maddlerdoh!19:07
Setokit kind of makes you wonder with so many bugs and problems around the n80019:07
Setokand I'm sure there are some Nokia folk here19:08
Setok... but does Nokia actually do QA on these devices?19:08
Setokor just release them and hope the community'll fix 'em?19:08
* Jaffa 's glad they released it when they did.19:09
glassssthey do a lot but fail a lot in doing it...19:09
mgedminjust imagine what we'd have if they didn't do any QA19:09
keesj:p I am not from nokia , but this is what I like about the device. if if where finished it would be so lame.19:09
Takimo they kind of shot themselves in the foot by not releasing to devs slightly in advance19:10
*** sKaBoy has quit IRC19:10
keesjyes, and if the proccess could be more open it would make sense19:10
Setokkeesj: how so?19:12
SetokI mean, I'm all for an open platform and such, but come on, I'd also like a device which works :)19:12
keesjbut I have been to many phone stores in Amsterdam and non of them knew there was such a thing. it is all new and needs to find a place. and I don't think the phone store is the right place. so I guess there is plenty of time to fix the problems for next release19:13
Setoksome of the problems are so obvious it pretty much means nobody bothered trying them ...19:13
*** tolgam has quit IRC19:13
keesjSetok: really , there is no default PIM software  no great games. it is for hackers and hacker companies who can seel nice software bundeled with the device IMHO of course :p19:14
*** ||cw has quit IRC19:14
keesjseel = sell19:15
*** snorkelyd has joined #maemo19:15
*** plaes has joined #maemo19:15
maddlerkeesj: I agree...19:16
keesjthat is  not 100% true, but I still don't really understand how the n880 is supposed to be marketed. It is a great device for at home for home control19:16
maddlerkeesj: Is the first device (beside my PCs) which allows me to experiment... and to play with...19:16
maddlerI've been a Palm user since the time of Palm Pilot... 10yrs?19:17
keesjmaddler: I love it19:17
Setokas far as I can tell, the n800 is still very much a geek toy19:17
SetokI couldn't possibly imagine buying one for my mum19:17
maddlerand I've never experienced anything like N800...19:17
Setokyou'd need so much better integrated software for it to hit the consumer market properly19:17
maddlerSetok: that's true...19:17
mgedminSetok: I bought a 770 for my mum :)19:18
Setok:P19:18
maddlerin fact 90% of N800 and possiblu 770 users are geeks! :D19:18
maddlermy wife use my old 770... and she feels comfortable with it...19:18
maddlerto check her mail...19:18
maddlerweb surfing...19:18
maddlerand talks...19:18
Setokthe mail client on the n800 was really very slow19:18
Setokso I have ended up not using it either :(19:18
SetokI'll give it the web surfing. For that it's OK19:19
*** lardman has quit IRC19:19
maddleryep... mail client is bad... that's true...19:19
Setokif it had skype then I could use it for talking too19:19
maddlerbut I *so* geek that I was already using ssh->mutt->imap19:19
maddler:)19:19
Takalmost all of the mom-type end users I know use webmail anyway19:19
SetokI was surprised you can't even take a snapshot with the camera .. or did I miss something?19:19
Takonly geeks use an actual mail client anymore19:20
Setokprofessionals use real mail clients as well19:20
maddlerSetok: I've got cameras everywhere else...19:20
Setokwhich would be another potential n800 audience, but not yet..19:20
maddlerwith phone sporting 3megapixels cameras...19:20
Setokmaddler: actually, I've got a backup phone since my RAZR broke so I don't :)19:20
maddlerI really don't need one more camera...19:20
Setokwell, it has a camera19:21
Setokwouldn't think it too difficult to add a snapshot menu option somewhere19:21
* keesj just swichted to wmii + screen + irssi in the last month (it was kde + xchat )19:21
maddlerbut the you would start complaining about picture quality... :)19:21
Setoknah, I wouldn't actually :)19:21
keesjI feel so geeky19:21
Takmeh, a "professional's" mail client would have to support exchange19:21
SetokI don't really care much about phone camera quality19:21
SetokI have a digi camera for proper pics19:22
Takthey're better off doing OWA19:22
Setoktak: true. well, depending on the corp, but yeah19:22
sbaturzioAtWorkis it true webcam on N800 works only if you call another N800 user?19:22
*** hub has quit IRC19:22
maddlerSetok: maybe not you... but many people would start complaining... that's sure..19:22
TaksbaturzioAtWork: I think there's a winclient as well19:22
Setokmaddler: sure19:23
sbaturzioAtWorkTak: with jabber o gtalk protocol?19:23
maddlerhey... there is a camera... I can take pictures... but they sucks... why didn'd they provided a better camera?19:23
Setokdoes the camera have an API that can be used?19:23
maddler:)19:23
JaffaSetok: Not taking pictures is *exactly* what Nokia should have done. There have already been quick proof of concept apps to take snaps, and there's a garage project to take pictures/record video.19:23
mgedminSetok: v4l19:23
*** koos_ has joined #maemo19:23
*** shapr has joined #maemo19:23
DisconnectJaffa: not taking pictures is exactly what they should have done.....because the camera is trash ;)19:24
*** koen|gprs__ has quit IRC19:24
Setokif there is a proper API then that's good19:24
DisconnectSetok: standard video4linux19:24
maddlertaking pictures is *not* N800 job...19:24
Setokok19:24
TakI'm not exactly sure what possessed the addition of a webcam anyway19:24
Setokmaddler: I'd argue it's not a phone's job ;-)19:24
Disconnect(and i'd say that the effort being expended on pic/video apps would be better applied to other tasks)19:24
Setokbut fun for the odd drunk snapshot19:24
maddlerI mean... yes... I'd like an everything device as well... but...19:25
DisconnectTak: photo-blogging.19:25
Takseems like an odd addition to the existing hw set19:25
maddleryou can't have everything...19:25
Setokwell, I guess some video conference19:25
Setoknever done it myself19:25
JaffaDisconnect: that too :)19:25
maddlerSetok: in fact I have an E61, and I'm happy :)19:25
JaffaDisconnect: I'm happy there are more devs, what they work on is up to them IMHO19:26
maddlerI mean... I'm very satisfied of what N800 does...19:26
maddlermore than satisfied...19:26
Setokare there any calendar style applications which would sync neatly with a mac?19:26
SetokOK, I guess I could go out to have a look, of course19:27
maddleryes... ther could be more... but then ther could have been more than more... :)19:27
maddlerand so on...19:27
Takdates uses ical format, and supports...?opensync?19:27
Disconnectis it more devs (eg devs who are just doing this) or is it devs who would have been doing something else getting side-tracked? if the former, its still a net loss for the platform because they'll wander off after that app (or they'd have done it anyway, regardless of nokia's app) and if the latter, its a distraction19:27
Setokif I could set it up to sync the calendar and contacts with my mac. maybe bookmarks too, then I'd be getting somewhere :)19:27
Setokoh, and replace the mail program :)19:27
*** dieguito has joined #maemo19:28
keesjSetok: I think of it like a network client , I use gmail and stuff like that, I don't even need sync, and google calendar sends me sms message when I have an apointment19:29
Setokany idea when the n800 navi package is coming out? that is the one thing I'm most interested in atm19:29
Setokkeesj: that might fit your usage patterns, but not mine :)19:29
JaffaDisconnect: I think that's too simplistic. More apps is better advertising, even if many of them are trivial; new devs will stay and do new things with their devices often; existing devs can't be tied down to work on what we'd like ;-)19:30
keesjSetok: I have only been hacking on the device , the n800 thumbpad is so much better that I really started using it.19:31
*** Andy80 has joined #maemo19:32
Andy80hi19:32
Setokkeesj: I briefly tried the thumbpad and didn't seem too pad19:33
Setokbad19:33
keesjAnyway , I think you made plenty of valid points :p19:33
maddlerfg 1119:33
maddlerwops19:34
*** KevinVerma has quit IRC19:35
*** KevinVerma has joined #Maemo19:35
bedboithat's a frequently asked question :)19:35
maddlernice... vista has been just released and Mirco$oft already working to fix "high impact issues"19:36
maddlerhehe19:36
*** fab has joined #maemo19:38
*** Eloi has joined #maemo19:39
*** Eloi has left #maemo19:39
sbaturzioAtWorkhow many calendar/todo web-application are ready for N800?19:40
sbaturzioAtWorkthings like Google calendar, I mean19:40
*** koos has quit IRC19:40
*** elpaso has joined #maemo19:40
elpasohello!19:41
sbaturzioAtWorkelpaso: Ciao19:41
maddlerhey elpaso19:41
maddler:D19:41
elpasoCiao19:41
elpasoI've just got my 800!!!19:41
* maddler invites all *.it to #maemo-it :)19:41
maddlerelpaso: GREAT!!!19:41
Takis there really a necessity for a maemo-it channel?19:42
elpasoI've a problem with red pill and so...19:42
elpasoI'm trying to install my maemo-stars19:42
sbaturzioAtWorkTak: mah....italians are strange people ;-) they need to "hear" their language ;-)19:42
c0ffeeand paste colours19:42
c0ffeeand use scripts19:42
* c0ffee ducks19:42
keesjI recieved this email from jbenchmark I think it contains interesting figures about arm and pda like devices Feature-rich phones, including smartphones, is by far the fastest growing mobile handset segment. Feature-rich phones, including smartphones, is by far the fastest growing mobile handset segment. Informa Telecoms & Media expects sales of these devices to reach 55 percent of total handset sales by the end of 2007. ‰‰http://box.mmapps19:42
elpasoIt needs libglade...19:43
*** Disconnect has quit IRC19:43
elpasoso I've added all repos and apt-cache search glade returns the lib correctly19:43
bedboic0ffee: talk for yourself :)19:43
*** Disconnect has joined #maemo19:44
bedboinever used a script or colors, and i'm still Italian as pizza19:44
*** bergie has joined #maemo19:44
c0ffeehummm, pizza19:44
c0ffeegood idea19:44
TakI thought pizza was american ;-)19:44
elpasobut the app manager does'nt install it automatically...19:44
Takat least, the way americans make it19:44
elpasowhy??19:44
keesjelpaso: I would love to try to mud it , but it is a bad mud day here19:45
c0ffeedripping from fat you mean, tak? :)19:45
bedboiTak: you should not swear19:46
bedboireally,19:46
kulveSetok: Q119:48
kulveSetok: and you comments are all way off :)19:48
*** ||cw has joined #maemo19:49
kulveI hope nobody here bought the thing because of the software it has, but because of the software you (make and) put there :)19:49
kulve+can19:49
*** pdz- has joined #maemo19:49
Takkulve: that's why I did19:50
*** mgedmin has quit IRC19:50
kulveSetok: and both my mom and uncle had the 770 and they used the builtin sw happily (paying bills, surfing web, making sip calls with gizmo, gps)19:50
maddlerkulve: I agree with you...19:50
kulvethe toy value would be even more (much more) better, if it had the drivers for the 3d chip. At least TI's reference omap2 should includ it19:51
*** jonnylamb has quit IRC19:52
Takagreed19:52
keesjelpaso , it is installed on the sdk and this is what happens on my n800 http://paste-it.net/1136/raw/19:52
kulveSetok: but I do agree, that since Nokia did put some sw there, they should at least work..19:52
keesjI would also like a thumb friendly abd slik gui19:53
elpasoYes, it works when installed by hand or in redpill mode, but it doesn't installa automatically19:53
*** kender has quit IRC19:53
*** __shawn has quit IRC19:53
Takyeah, thumb friendliness is a big thing19:53
TakI prefer to never use the stylus19:53
* maddler goes home19:53
keesjTak: how to you clean the screen?19:54
TakI tend to just wipe it off with something soft, like a tshirt19:54
*** KermitTheFragger has quit IRC19:56
tzzalcohol wipes are very good for cleaning computer screens, including the N800.19:57
tigertmy shirt sleeve works nicely19:57
tzzI use them for my glasses, so I buy a box of 500 for $10 or so.19:57
*** bedboi has quit IRC19:57
TakI'm nervous about using any kind of chemical wipes on the screen19:58
tigerti use the thumb kbd, so its no use trying to keep it too clean. i just wipe out worst crap :)19:58
tzzcotton is not very good, it leaves threads.  Plus, it's often a blend with polyester, which is just crappy.19:58
*** elpaso has quit IRC19:58
kulveI'm not sure if alcohol etc is good for clearing lcd displays..19:58
tzzalcohol wipes are not "chemicals" unless you mean the term as a chemist would.19:58
tzzthey are harmless.  I promise.  The "recommended use" on the box includes LCDs.19:59
kulveok :)19:59
*** matt_c has quit IRC20:00
tzzmore than anything, it helps with thumbprints, which are basically fat.  Alcohol dissolves fat, unlike cotton, which just absorbs and smudges.20:00
tzzOK, enough about that :)  I have a meeting in 2 minutes...20:01
*** pdz has quit IRC20:01
keesjthanks20:01
Takabsorbs is fine with me ;-)20:01
*** ssvb has joined #maemo20:06
*** elpaso has joined #maemo20:13
*** skandaleras has quit IRC20:14
*** dape has quit IRC20:15
*** AD-N770 has quit IRC20:20
*** saerdnaer has joined #maemo20:23
*** sbaturzioAtWork has quit IRC20:23
*** elpaso has left #maemo20:26
*** matt_c has joined #maemo20:36
*** gummibaerchen has joined #maemo20:38
*** Setok has quit IRC20:46
*** KevinVerma has left #Maemo20:51
*** KevinVerma has joined #Maemo20:52
*** mukund has quit IRC20:52
*** pleemans has joined #maemo20:58
*** koen|gprs__ has joined #maemo21:00
*** koen|gprs__ is now known as koen|gprs21:03
*** vivijim has left #maemo21:05
*** koen|gprs_ has joined #maemo21:06
*** koen|gprs has quit IRC21:06
*** koen|gprs__ has joined #maemo21:07
*** vivijim has joined #maemo21:07
*** koen|gprs__ is now known as koen|gprs21:10
*** KevinVerma has quit IRC21:11
*** KevinVerma has joined #Maemo21:12
*** garrett has joined #maemo21:15
garretthowdy, everyone!21:15
*** behdad has joined #maemo21:16
tigerthi garrett :)21:18
*** koen|gprs_ has quit IRC21:27
keesjHi21:31
*** Bi_DosT has joined #maemo21:35
*** Bi_DosT has quit IRC21:36
*** tolgam has joined #maemo21:42
tigertnice. maemo mapper does work fine on n80022:03
tigertjust add the 2.0 repo and install with app installer it seems22:04
*** KevinVerma has quit IRC22:05
*** KevinVerma has joined #Maemo22:06
*** trickie has quit IRC22:07
*** mgedmin has joined #maemo22:09
nelson2.0 repo?22:13
*** sbaturzio has joined #maemo22:13
*** zuh has quit IRC22:14
*** zuh has joined #maemo22:14
sbaturzioAloha!22:14
Paavokeesj: Microfiber cloth is by far best for cleaning displays.22:15
keesjYo22:17
*** KermitTheFragger has joined #maemo22:18
*** xan has joined #maemo22:21
obiwhat are the recommended CFLAGS for the 770?22:24
koen|gprsheh22:25
koen|gprsthe "won't charge" infoprint is cute22:26
dwdobi: You could try these: http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/gcc.html22:26
* koen|gprs hates nokia "chargers"22:26
*** jonek has quit IRC22:26
obithanks, quite helpful22:27
dwdobi: I think there was a discussion about floating point stuff on the maemo-dev list recently, but that concerns the N800 - for 770, I think you can pretty well use whatever suits.22:28
keesjwasn't qt supposed to be gpl?22:44
mgedminkeesj: it's dual-licenced: gpl and some sort of commercial licence that you have to pay $$ for22:44
keesj I am trying to downloaded it from the website http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/licensesbut I don't see a gpl version22:46
dwdkeesj: IIRC, not all ports are GPL.22:46
keesjeven the windows one I have hear22:46
keesjheard22:46
mgedmingtk+ is prettier anyway22:46
keesjif there is one thing I don't like about gtk then it is the look22:47
dwdkeesj: That's pretty redefinable, though.22:49
mgedminheh, tastes differ22:50
mgedminI too dislike the unthemed look of bare gtk+22:50
keesjThe cairo thing really sound right.22:50
dwd*sigh* Okay, "import gtk" in python2.5 in Bora scratchbox fails. This is going to prove pretty rticky to develop with.22:50
keesjI like evas22:51
keesjdwd :(22:51
c0ffeedwd, did you install all 2.5 gtk packages?22:51
dwdc0ffee: Well - I'd assume it has all the ones needed to load gtk.22:52
dwdc0ffee: I mean, it's got python2.5-gtk. And import gtk doesn't fail with an ImportError, but a NameError.22:52
mgedminwhat's the name it errors about?22:53
dwdmgedmin: _gtk22:53
dwdmgedmin: Which, frankly, does not bode well.22:53
dwdWorks on the device.22:53
mgedminsmells like a broken package :/22:53
*** pdz has joined #maemo22:54
mgedminoh, I don't even have python 2.4 in my scratchbox22:55
mgedminonly 2.322:55
dwdmgedmin: Python2.3 ships with scratchbox. 2.5 is current Maemo, 2.4 was the original.22:55
luckdwd, did you export DISPLAY variable?22:55
mgedminwhich repository?  extras?22:55
dwdluck: Erm, yes.22:55
dwdmgedmin: repo.maemo.org/extras/ bora free non-free22:56
dwdmgedmin: (Obviously with the hostname in full, but I'm too lazy.)22:56
mgedminI'm lazy too, that's why I copied and pasted the existing line and didn't even look at the hostname ;)22:57
*** zuh has quit IRC22:57
*** mgedmin has quit IRC22:58
*** bergie has quit IRC22:58
tzzdamn it.  I am trying to run Comix to read .CBR/.CBZ files, but it requires GTK 2.8.x and Maemo only has 2.6.x.23:02
tzzI may have to play with Obscura instead, since I don't know Python well, so it's easier to add CBR/CBZ support to Obscura.23:02
*** ferulo has joined #maemo23:03
tzzthe PyGTK bindings are fine, though, and the Python Image Library installed fine23:03
keesjI am looking at the web-sortcut code, it seams like a lot of code for a single button23:04
tzzso other than the GTK version it could run fine.  Argh.23:04
keesjan what is "hildon-home-image-viewer" ?23:05
Takwhat in particular is incompatible in comix with gtk 2.6 ?23:05
*** pdz- has quit IRC23:06
keesjanyway it is the first public  home applet code !23:06
etrunkotzz: try evince23:06
tzzTak: I'm looking through it right now.  To start: AttributeError: 'gtk.FileChooserDialog' object has no attribute 'set_do_overwrite_confirmation'23:07
tzzetrunko: thanks, I will23:07
Takthat one should be extraneous23:07
tzzTak: like I said, I don't know Python well...  Evince and Obscura look like better choices since they are Hildonized already anyhow.23:10
* Tak nods23:10
TakI definitely empathize with wanting to avoid python ;-)23:10
tzzTak: if you want to take a look, grab it from http://umn.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/comix/comix-3.6.2.tar.gz23:10
tzzwell I don't mind learning Python, I'm just not anywhere near good at it.  I'd definitely rather do PyGTK than straight GTK in C, that's u-g-l-y23:11
*** pdz- has joined #maemo23:12
*** pleemans has quit IRC23:12
koos_why doesn't signal a GtkFixed a configure-event? (or how to get resize events now)23:20
*** dogbix has joined #maemo23:22
*** pdz has quit IRC23:24
*** pvanhoof has joined #maemo23:24
*** __smoke has joined #maemo23:27
*** sbaturzio has quit IRC23:28
__smokeevening, right place to pluck a question about python2.5 in n800 tablet ?23:28
etrunko__smoke: shot it23:28
etrunkoshoot23:28
__smokeshooting, i got loads of problems with the basic udp servers...like ThreadingUDPServer dont seem to work at all, allmost23:29
__smokesay, i run a small server from xterm, it runs sure but hardly ever receives the data i send it, most of the data i send seems to go to dev/null23:30
__smokeit's just a book example ThreadingUDPServer implementation, hardly any code in it23:30
*** vivijim has left #maemo23:31
__smokeone thing too..it usually receives the first packet i send and then goes deaf...and the n800 stops responding to ping at the same time (i can still browse the web on it etc)...i'm starting to think leprechauns are at work here23:32
etrunko__smoke: could you paste your code somewhere? (like http://pastebin.ca)23:33
*** sbaturzio has joined #maemo23:33
__smokeallright, lemme see how that works23:33
pbrook__smoke: Do other incoming connections work?23:34
__smokehmm, dont know, not much anything else to try it with atm23:34
pbrooki.e. are sure it's a problem with you application, not the network23:34
pbrookMy n800 seems to effectively turn the wireless off a second after transmitting a packet.23:35
__smokei'm totally unsure where the prob is, but the application is dead simple....http://pastebin.ca/33619923:36
pbrookSo for normal outgoing connections where the remote machine responds fairly promptly it's fine. If there's a significant delay or for communication initiated by extarnal machines then packets seem to get blackholed.23:36
*** KevinVerma has quit IRC23:36
__smokethis was prettymuch one way test just23:37
*** epx has quit IRC23:37
__smokeext machine sends poop, n800 receives23:37
*** tank17 has quit IRC23:37
pbrookRIght, that's the same situation where my n800 is dropping all the packets.23:37
__smokeyeah23:38
maddlerHey all23:38
__smokeallright, its not me then, it's the device23:38
*** epx has joined #maemo23:38
__smokeor, python implementation on it23:38
__smokeor leprechauns on it23:38
Takpython was originally devised by leprechauns as a way to punish the Big Folk23:39
*** koen|gprs has quit IRC23:40
*** tank17 has joined #maemo23:40
*** melmoth has quit IRC23:40
*** melmoth has joined #maemo23:40
*** gummibaerchen has quit IRC23:40
__smokedefinatly, still like it though, lovely syntax :)23:40
aCiDBaSeTak: why you don't stop to talk about Python? If you don't like it just don't use it...23:41
__smokepbrook, was your problem with a python app too, or should i go and try with c ?23:41
TakaCiDBaSe: as you wish23:41
aCiDBaSethanks23:41
pbrook__smoke: My problems are not specific to a particular application, it effecte everything, including opera.23:42
__smokeallright, opera seems to work allright on my tablet, RSS feeds too and so on...atleast nothing obvious on enything else23:43
*** epx has quit IRC23:43
pbrookWell, most things work ok because 1000s is a relatively long time comparted to average internet latencies.23:43
pbrooker, I mean 1000ms23:44
__smokeyep, there'n there23:44
__smokewell, lol, got it working by pumping out data to a "random" local port on receive handler23:46
__smokequite not ideal, but seems to do it23:47
pbrookThat's consistent with what I'm seeing.23:47
pbrookIf I ping the machie every 1s that's sufficient to keep it alive.23:47
__smokeyeh, with a intentional, longish delay i can make the problem reappear23:47
__smokerather inconvinient, but now i knwo23:48
*** luck has quit IRC23:50
* maddler finally found what was wrong with gizmo!23:51
maddlerit doesn't like usb0!23:52
*** dogbix has quit IRC23:54
*** koos_ has quit IRC23:56
svuis there bundled gpodder for maemo?23:56
maddleryou mean as default application?23:59

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!