IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2006-11-27

|tbb|i try to show youtube vidz, i tried following instructions of but i cant open the bookmarked link with the opera browser  on my n770. on my firefox browser on the desktop pc it works fine, any suggest00:01
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Jaffa|tbb|: tried using (yeah, another plug for my own stuff, but it might work better)00:22
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|tbb|jaffa, which player do you use to watch them then00:31
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|tbb|i wonder how long the vid convert page will survive00:34
Jaffa|tbb|: built-in one.00:48
Jaffa|tbb|: At the moment, the load is such that there's no reason for it not to survive indefinitely.00:48
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|tbb|how long do u use vidconvert page and how often do u have to wait queued ur vidz to convert00:52
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Jaffa|tbb|: I use it whenever I want to watch something off YouTube on my 770, away from a desktop computer.01:10
Jaffa(or other, non-RealVideo file for that matter)01:11
JaffaThe queue's currently empty, and generally is whenever I use it.01:11
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ajturnerwhen did the N770 nav kit come out?03:11
timelyxrecently :)03:14
ajturnerthat's what I was thinking - not sure when I missed it03:14
ajturnerlooks interesting, what are they using for mapping?03:14
ajturnerteleatlas's stuff or something?03:14
timelyxthe vendor is responsible for it03:15
timelyxit's not nokia's03:15
ajturnerright, i assumed nokia was just repackaging something03:16
timelyxi don't think nokia's repackaging i03:16
timelyxbut maybe i'm wrong03:16
ajturnerwell, selling it from their site03:16
ajturnerhrm, I would like to be able to do the same w/ Maemo mapper03:17
ajturnerby storing up large sets of mapping tiles03:17
* timelyx did that03:17
timelyx1gb mmc + lots of free time on my hands03:17
timelyxi'd suggest not doing that03:17
Juhazand you wouldn't actually get off-line routing that way, just maps03:18
ajturnertimelyx - what did you do?03:19
timelyxtraveled to the states w/ my 770, maemo mapper, and a bluetooth enabled cell phone or two03:19
ajturnerah, so you d/l'd enroute?03:19
ajturnerthat's my point - would be nice to precache03:20
timelyxand tried to slurp maps for large portions of the world manually in order to have a demo of the 770 w/o internet access03:20
timelyxi did precache03:20
ajturnerI'm hoping OpenStreetmaps makes it into Maemo Mapper03:20
timelyxi spent at least half in an hour @ LHR manually precaching by walking around the world03:20
ajturnerdemoing where?03:20
timelyxto random people i visited03:20
ajturnerwell, doing realtime nav using googlemaps is against the TOS03:20
timelyxi wasn't doing realtime anything03:20
ajturnermake it to michigan? ;)03:21
timelyxnot this trip, only silicon valley03:21
timelyxi was in michigan in 2002 and 200303:21
ajturneroutside detroit?03:22
timelyxann arbor both years and grand rapids the second year03:22
ajturnerah, yep03:22
ajturnerbut obviously SF is the place to be03:22
timelyxkinda depends on your definition of outside i suppose03:22
ajturnerright- AA's don't think they're near Detroit, but they are03:22
ajturnerI live about 10 miles outside AA03:22
timelyxi took a greyhound bus back through detroit the first year, so i guess "not safely" would be one answer03:23
* timelyx grumbles03:23
timelyxnokia's needs to pay people who speak English to write their text03:24
ajturnermost of the people from Nokia I've met *aren't* finnish, so I wonder where they're from03:24
ajturnermost have been english, some italians03:24
timelyxrandom european countries+the far east03:25
timelyxvery few from the new world03:25
* timelyx wonders if india is considered far east03:25
* timelyx sighs03:26
timelyxi hope this article was written by a finn03:26
timelyxbecause if it was written by a native speaker, I'm really ashamed03:26
ajturnerI wouldn't be surprised03:26
timelyxthey can't even spell United States Government correctly :(03:28
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timelyxi suppose a brit could have written it, but i highly doubt that a brit would make such a mistake... oh well03:29
JaffaWhat's the text?03:32
timelyxurl i pasted a few screens ago03:33
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JaffaDefinitely non-native speaker. The lack of definite and indefinite articles is the giveaway.03:36
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* timelyx sighs03:37
timelyxit's really unprofessional03:37
glasssometimes people who do speak native english write it not so well03:37
timelyxsometimes people who speak English natively can't write their way out of a paper bag03:38
timelyxthat doesn't make you a native speaker.03:38
timelyxthe mistakes native speakers make are very different from the ones non native speakers make, at least in general03:40
timelyxNote that in English, you're supposed to capitalize proper nouns, and languages, such as Finnish are proper nouns. This is unlike certain languages, such as Finnish.03:41
* timelyx rarely capitalizes anything on irc03:42
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timelyxdoes anyone here have os2005 handy?03:49
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tigertyea, in finnish we don't capitalize stuff like that07:41
tigertbut I rarely use the shift key in irc in general anyway07:42
tigerttimelyx: we have lots of non-finnish people at nokia, but not _that_ many native english speakers. :)07:44
tigert"non-finns" yeah, but from a wide range of countries really, it's quite an international mix07:45
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alump"GConf warning: failure listing pairs in `/system/http_proxy': Configuration server couldn't be contacted: D-BUS error: No reply within specified time966: arguments to dbus_connection_send_with_reply_and_block() were incorrect, assertion "connection != NULL" failed in file dbus-connection.c line 2769."09:12
alumpI get this error on the newest version of 770's firmware - is there a bug in there or in my code09:13
alumpthis doesn't happen with older versions of os200609:15
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tigerttime to go to work, got the new theme template coordinates extracted10:07
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tigertnow thememaker can finally use and share the sardine template, since I have one for OS2006 also10:08
tigert(sardine theme is a bit different)10:08
tigertand then I need to update my own theme and release it :)10:08
koentigert: does Xan do IRC?10:09
X-FadeSweet :)10:09
tigertX-Fade: indeed :)10:11
koentigert: the nokia gtk+ performance dude, Xan Lopez10:12
tigertI am not sure, ask tko10:28
tigerthe probably knows10:28
tigertI can ask once I get to the office10:29
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JaffaMorning, all10:55
koenhey Jaffa10:55
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florian_kcgood morning11:01
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obergix[work]anyone know why the navigation kit from Nokia is sold for every other countries but France (and maybe others ?) on the nokia on-line shop ?11:14
florian_kcobergix[work]: That might be a license issue... there might be something different with licensing maps for France. iirc its a pain in Germany as well...11:18
obergix[work]florian_kc: thx11:19
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AD-N770good morning11:26
florian_kchi AD-N77011:30
florian_kcobergix[work]: but that's really just a guess11:30
obergix[work]florian_kc: I'll try and find time to call the shop11:30
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florian_kchi tigert12:06
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tigerthi :)12:11
tigert /wg 412:12
tigertoops ;)12:12
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sebas_is there any word on java support for maemo?12:18
inzLots of words, but seemingly no action.12:25
sebas_thats the only thing keeping me from getting this phone12:25
inztis not a phone12:25
sebas_i would use it as a phone anyways12:26
inzWell, technically it is a VoIP phone nowadays12:26
sebas_but i want to be able to develop software to it12:26
sebas_simple things12:26
sebas_and i dont wanna code c or c++12:26
sebas_that would be a waist of t ime12:26
sebas_...if you ask me12:26
sebas_are there anyother good handheld devices?12:27
sebas_with linux12:27
sebas_and java?12:27
sebas_that are as good as the 770? i cannot find anything like it12:27
sebas_only old crappy ones12:28
sebas_i should become a hardware manufacturer. i could please all of you *grandness*12:28
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inzIf you don't wanna do C or C++, try python =)12:29
sebas_you can run c# on it12:29
sebas_i want to run something OO12:29
inzpython is OO12:29
sebas_and not c++12:29
sebas_but i dont code python12:29
inzMe neither =)12:29
sebas_that would be a good challange though12:30
sebas_but it runs mono12:30
sebas_so thats atleast something12:30
sebas_i could code mono12:30
sebas_thats java in a way12:30
sebas_not really12:30
sebas_but i could pretend12:30
inzC# = Java run through a simple sed script ;)12:30
sebas_"NASA uses Python..."12:30
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koeninterpreted languages on a 250MHz arm cpu12:31
sebas_ive been wanting to learn python for a while12:31
sebas_koen: that is true12:31
sebas_250? oh12:31
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sbaturziois python a real interpreted language? even if it create that "bytecode" just before execution?12:33
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sebas_i will not do python12:37
sebas_not for a phone12:37
sebas_it does not look like fun12:37
bilboedsebas_, means you've never used python12:38
sebas_10:29 < sebas_> but i dont code python12:38
sebas_i was scrolling though some tutorials12:38
bilboedsebas_, the only downside to python on small devices is the startup time... but there's work being done currently to speed that up12:39
sebas_but i mean python does not seem to be antying like java, c# etc12:39
sebas_very diffrent syntax12:39
sebas_very diffrent everything12:39
sebas_i would be able to learn it12:40
sebas_but i need to be motivated due to my autism.12:40
sebas_and i dont think i would buy a phone to learn to code.12:40
sebas_i rememeber once i bought a 286 to learn to code c++12:40
sebas_those where the days12:40
dwdsebas_: I have a fairly large Python project running at reasonable speed on a 770.12:41
sebas_they should not exclude java12:42
sebas_thats just bizzare12:42
sebas_i mean even if it was slow12:42
sebas_770 would get a lot of apps that would work12:42
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suihkulokkinobody excluding java..12:43
suihkulokkijust nobody bothered enough to do it themself12:43
dwdsebas_: I think it's more that Java is excluding the 770, not the other way around.12:43
sebas_suihkulokki: haha12:43
sebas_dwd: yes12:43
sebas_dwd: lets say 770 and java should be better friends.12:44
sebas_good diplomatic awnser.12:44
JaffaSomeone needs to just *try* porting phoneme - that'll start a Java ball rolling12:44
JaffaThe new open source version of a Java ME (aka J2ME) stack12:45
sebas_looks intetestibng12:45
sebas_its not that is it?12:45
suihkulokkisomeone got quite far porting java to the device, but got stuck doe to a xserver bug12:45
sebas_hehe ok12:45
suihkulokkiwhich has since been fixed12:45
Jaffasuihkulokki: that was JamVM, wasn't it?12:45
suihkulokkiso someone who *cares* about java just needs to pick up the pieces and continue12:46
sebas_suihkulokki: are you looking at me?12:46
sebas_i dont "care" persay about java12:46
sebas_i could do it with mono12:46
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sebas_its not like i am planning to code apps to the 77012:47
JaffaMono's not much further than Java on the 770, TBH.12:47
sebas_i was just thinking if i have a 770 i would one day want to make stuff for it12:47
sebas_i made a schedualar for my last PDA12:47
sebas_cos i keep forgetting stuff12:48
JaffaGPE Calendar, GPE Todo?12:48
sebas_i want to make my own12:49
dwdsebas_: Python's a handy language to learn. Runs nicely on the 770, runs nicely on the desktop, runs nicely for webapps.12:49
sebas_with my stuff12:49
sebas_dwd: you mean i should learn a new language just for this?12:49
sebas_heh, i like your way of thinking12:49
sebas_a bit annoying and it gives me OCDs but still... it would be a good reason to learn pything12:50
dwdsebas_: No, I mean you would benefit from learning the language anyway.12:50
sebas_good point.12:50
dwdsebas_: If it were just for this, I'd agree that'd be a quirky way of thinking.12:50
sebas_ok then12:50
sebas_well, i always think quite quirky in the eyes of others12:51
sebas_that is why they put this stamp on me "high functioning autistic."12:51
sebas_it really only means my brain works in a diffrent manner.12:51
sebas_i will do some reading then i guess.12:51
sebas_see if it is fun or not12:51
dwdsebas_: FWIW, Python isn't interpreted anymore than Java is. Python can compile itself, but it also stores the results, and typically the device itself wouldn't do compilation.12:51
sebas_dwd: thnx12:51
suihkulokkiappears someone already did pick up java:
sebas_what about databases12:52
sebas_or where should information be stored on the 770?12:52
sebas_just in a file?12:52
JaffaLot of people are using SQLite12:52
sebas_there is a SQLite server for 770? hah12:52
sebas_nice 112:53
inzSQLite doesn't have server12:53
florian_kcinz: s/have/need ;)12:53
inzflorian, s/have/use/ could be better12:53
inzbut anyway12:54
sebas_inz: hmm, i have never used it, i assumed it was like sql or mysql12:54
sebas_but lighter12:54
inzsebas, it's a bit like them, but all "server operations" are run in the client12:54
sebas_i am reading about it now12:54
florian_kcsebas_: its similar, yes... and for sure you can use it to store data :-)12:54
sebas_so _thats_ why its light12:54
inzsebas, the other way(tm) of storing (simple) data is gconf12:55
inzsebas, and gconf is backed up by default, so you need not worry about telling backup sw about what files to backup12:55
sebas_the log of the java discussion will prolly have a bigger file size then the actuall code i will write all together12:56
sebas_so i should go out and get a 770 then.12:57
sebas_and learn python.12:57
sebas_i will go through som tutorials today12:57
inzhave phun12:57
sebas_see how i have missunderstood everything.12:57
sebas_yah, thnx :)12:58
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mgedmingconf is for storing user's configuration settings13:07
mgedminpeople will frown if you try to use it for something else13:07
mgedminI think13:07
inzmgedmin, true13:10
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Le-Chuck_ITAHi all13:13
Le-Chuck_ITAI have two very quick questions about maemo13:13
Le-Chuck_ITA1. can maemo be installed on pcs? I have a tablet pc13:13
Le-Chuck_ITACould it be done modifying the original source?13:13
Le-Chuck_ITA2. I ask this because I would like to have an handwriting recognition engine on linux - is the handwriting input method of maemo open source?13:14
inzThe hwr is closed13:14
Le-Chuck_ITAok thanks :)13:15
Le-Chuck_ITAI would even pay for that13:15
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Le-Chuck_ITAbut I suppose nokia won't do the porting13:16
inzVery likely not13:16
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Le-Chuck_ITAthank you iniz13:17
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* Jaffa wonders how easy it'll be to get Classpath's GtkWindows to be HildonWindows.13:29
JaffaFor that matter, given the Gtk fork for the 770, why hasn't the behaviour of GtkWindow changed, making porting trivial? (probably one for tko, probably one I've asked before)13:30
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florian_kcJaffa: That's one of the major ideas of object oriented software development: inherit instead of change things. For the HildonWindow this solution is absolutely correct.13:34
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Jaffaflorian_kc: except it's also one of the fundamental flaws. No-one should be using GtkWindow on Maemo (unless I've missed something), and there's no factory to give you a window (which would abstract the production of the appropriate *Window and therefore make it correct). So porting *anything* requires code changes. Given code changes have already been made, to change the behaviour of input boxes and checkboxes etc. it'd've made sense to replace GtkWindow wi13:36
Jaffa(and whilst at it, changing adding GtkMenuBars to transparently implement the dropdowns)13:36
florian_kcJaffa: that would be much more complicated to maintain and is likely to cause trouble in future. adding bindings for new widgets should be easy...13:37
* Jaffa shrugs - I'd prefer the balance of maintenance to be on Maemo's side, rather than mine.13:43
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mlpug-Is maemo/scratchbox on cygwin feasible/sensible setup?15:06
tigertdepends on your relationship with "pain"15:07
Robot101it won't work15:07
Robot101sbox needs binfmt_misc15:07
Robot101and bind mounts15:07
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mlpug-So to somebody on windows i should say buy another machine install debian or put vmware or something to make windows and linux to coexist, right15:13
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sbaturziomlpug-: you can set up a dual boot machine, without buying a new computer15:14
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mlpug-Dualboot. Of course. Anyway, cygwin did not get a lot of support in this gallup15:21
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Jaffamlpug-: I'm doing most of my Maemo develo-pment in Scratchbox on Ubuntu in the free VMware Player15:25
JaffaI keep meaning to remove work stuff from it, scale it down a bit, and put it somewhere...15:25
_follower_Jaffa: Yes please! :-)15:25
_follower_wot hardware are you running the vmware player on?15:26
JaffaA very nice new laptop from work: Dell D620: dual-core, 2GHz, 2GB of RAM15:26
_follower_how much hard drive space does ubuntu + sbox need?15:27
JaffaHmm, the disk image is currently about 8.5GB - but it's a full Ubuntu system.15:28
JaffaMay well make it unfeasible to share15:28
_follower_is it practical to have a gui-less install if i'm just wanting to compile?15:28
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JaffaGUI isn't too hard if you get the Browser Appliance for free from VMware and then run the Maemo installer shell script15:29
_follower_my issue is performance15:29
_follower_i'd be running it in QEmu on 1.67GHz PPC mac with minimal hdd space :-)15:30
JaffaShould be feasible. There are bound to be basic Ubuntu VMware images out there which only provide text-mode.15:30
JaffaAh :)15:30
JaffaCan QEmu handle VMware images?15:30
_follower_not sure. i've managed to boot two Ubuntu Live CDs, one was practical one not so much--about 1 hour to boot :-)15:30
_follower_actually, for that matter does anyone know if ubuntu live CDs allow text-only installs (for the actual installation process)? i assume so...15:34
JaffaThey do.15:34
_follower_i should try that... is it possible to install only the compilation side of sbox?15:35
JaffaDon't think so, but the GUI bits won't take up much space (since you need the libraries and headers etc. to compile against)15:36
_follower_hmmmm.... maybe i'll have to continue my search for some more hdd space... :-/15:37
_follower_Jaffa: thanks for the feedback15:37
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sylwareHi, the flasher download page on maemo seems down. Where can I get the linux flasheR?15:50
sylwareAre nvidia chips close enough in order to have one driver?15:54
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sylwareOups, wrong channel.16:09
sylwareAnything on the flasher?16:09
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X-Fadesylware: It seems the php files are broken.
X-FadeThey are 0 bytes :)16:24
X-FadeBut nokia_770.php still works.16:24
dwdHmmm... From the mailing list - anyone happen to know if Debian's buildd and friends could work for Maemo?16:24
_follower_umm,  any idea why someone removed (Maemo glossary) from the wiki?16:25
_follower_someone just pointed the removal out to me...16:25
dwd_follower_: Got pointed out on the mailing list a little while ago, too.16:25
_follower_oh, i'm many days behind on ml...16:25
_follower_is it possible to undelete?16:26
sylwareX-Fade: nokia_770.php is ok for flasher download?16:26
X-Fadesylware: No, only the image.16:27
sylwareX-Fade: I have the image... need the flasher...16:27
Jaffa_follower_: I noticed it earlier, immediate thought was "censorship", but RecentChanges shows it was "mail"16:28
_follower_yeah, what does "mail" mean?16:28
_follower_that really sucks--especially with no revision history... :-( :-(16:29
Jaffa_follower_: it's the first bit of the domain name of the IP which did it16:30
_follower_so does anyone who administers the wiki have any ability to "undelete" pages?16:31
koenit looks like someone deleted the on-disk storage16:33
sylwarekoen: malicious?16:34
X-FadeI reopened the 'Unable to download flasher utility'
X-FadePlease add some me too comments there ;)16:35
koensylware: or reiserfs16:37
_follower_hmmm, that sucks: google search for "maemo retu" shows the page content is cached as it shows in snippets but the *actual* cached copy is the deleted page16:37
koenso they deleted google too!16:40
koenit's a conspiracy!16:40
koen</sugar rush>16:41
jurop88hi all16:41
jurop88I am upgrading my 770 now and just get caught by the '770 flasher missing page' bug16:41
jurop88fortunately I found a previous saved copy of it in my HDD :)16:41
jurop88anybody has some good tricks to update without reinstalling every app?16:42
X-Fadejurop88: Please complain there :)16:42
jurop88I found some threads on the subject but nothing really useful16:42
jurop88@x-fade: I'll do it, also if I don't need it thx to my habit to have lots of backups16:42
sylwarekoen: this flasher attack seems malicious16:44
jurop88I read something about python and PIM progs16:45
jurop88all that I can say is that I am regularly using winzig16:45
jurop88IMHO it's the best working pim app on N77016:45
jurop88really FAST, if you leave it ever open it works with palm speed16:46
jurop88@x-fade:ok, complained for it :)16:48
ajturneris there  PIM app that supports CalDAV?16:48
ajturnerhow good is sync now with it?16:55
sylwarekoen: what are the differences between calDAV and iCal?16:55
koenical is just a .ics file afaik16:55
koencaldav is an .ics file on a webdav share16:55
koenagain, afaik16:55
sylwareajturner: I think you have a sync framework, opensync with the multisync ui.16:55
sylwarekoen: ok16:56
ajturnerreally, I want my mobile, laptop & n770 to all have the same sync'd data16:56
koenI never tried pushing to a webdav share, since my 770 is for 'read only' PIM16:56
sylwarekoen: the good idea would 3 ways sync: google PIM/Workstation PIM/Mobile device  PIM16:57
jurop88i am using winzig both on the 770 and PC16:57
dwdkoen: CalDAV is rather more than just an iCal file on WebDAV - the WebDAV server provides lots of searching stuff etc.16:57
jurop88and using unison both on the pc and 770 on a daily basis works like a charm16:57
dwdkoen: Basically it's a full calendaring protocol, that happens to use WebDAV as the core syntax.16:57
ajturnerjurop88, I run mac, and use iCal. Winzig says "reported to run on mac, but no details"16:58
jurop88I think Winzig will works everywhere Python runs16:59
jurop88perhaps not17:00
jurop88it uses pygtk bindings17:00
_follower_does anyone here remember the "unofficial" code names for the 770/"870"devices?17:19
_follower_they both started with "S" i think17:20
timelessthere were codenames?17:20
ajturneris there an 870 in the pipeline?17:21
_follower_yeah, someone had added them to the page i starteed17:21
_follower_and had linked to messages in the mailing list17:21
timelessi thought there was an official secrets act or however the British wrote theirs...17:21
ajturnerhrm, eta before christmas?17:24
suihkulokkidon't you know there is no christmas gifts for naughty industrial spies ;)17:28
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sylware870: buildin GPS/GSM/UMTS/Bluetooth/wifi/DMT and the coffer make :)17:35
koendon't forget the 20" CRT17:35
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suihkulokkiAnd it's still only half the size and weight ot 77017:36
sylwarekoen: and a BIG battery!17:36
dwdkoen: What, no projector?17:37
ajturnersounds like the N9517:37
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ajturnermmm... geolocation17:38
sylwarethe N95... hum, is this S60 thing are C APIs? Because if so, we should do a port on linux17:38
ajturnerthat didn't quite make sense ;)17:39
glassyeah.. what you're talking about?17:39
koenwell, Ari Jaaksi has stated that nokia ported linux to all their mobiles...17:40
sylwareN9x and so on are "S60" enabled mobile phone and one of the most downloaded app for "S60" phones is the ogg/vorbis player. I wonder if "S60" specify a set of C APIs17:41
glasswhy don't you just stop speculating and go to and read about the hell that is symbian c++17:43
timelessawww be nice, i'm sure it's a nice hell17:44
timelesswarn and toasty for these cold finnish winters we aren't having17:44
glassit's not nice.. but the job market is nice because of it17:45
_follower_well, i've "recreated" "CodeNames" as "Glossary" by joining together as many pieces as possible from the Google Cache context snippets:
sylwareglass: I though it was an effort to have standard C APIs on mobile phones...17:45
timelessthis isn't the place to think about it at all17:46
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glassthere's #symbian too, but please just go read the introduction to symbian docs on
sylwareglass, timeless: I'm interested in maemo, not symbian.17:47
glassit's still worthwhile to read them17:48
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wasabi_There anyway to send control chars to the n770's terminal fromthe onscreen keyboard?17:57
wasabi_specifically ESC or ctrl-C17:57
wasabi_ahh ... found it. no esc though17:58
mgedminthe hardware key just under the arrow keys is ESC17:59
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timelesswhy not use the app menu?18:01
wasabi_Hmm. Anybody have a package containing the openssl binary?18:07
wasabi_Hmm. Looks like just the libs are distributed.18:08
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tkoxan, oh, they were looking for you some time in the morning, but now that you're here bookmark the channel so that you don't forget it :)19:37
JaffaISTR it was koen?19:40
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xanKoen Kool?19:42
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manaPirathi guys :o)20:24
manaPirateeehm short question: I read on the mailinglists that textinput to qt-appliacitons running on maemo is not possible. Can you verify this?20:25
tkoit is possible, though not documented or too well supported or even tested20:25
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manaPiratwell :o) .. then i might give it a try .. as the kilelr application that i personaly see for linux mobile devices is a client to nomachines nx-server20:28
manaPiratand the only client libraries available are based on qt4 :-/20:28
manaPiratand, if i may ask, where do you have your information about QT-issues from? :)20:29
tkoI've been maintaining the maemo gtk for a few years now20:29
manaPiratah :) and you *could* possibly give hints on how to enable textinput for qt-apps *in case* "somebody" runs into trouble? :D20:31
manaPiratuhun thanks for that tipp :D20:32
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manaPiratuh that looks like hacking it into the application ;) - thanks for the Information20:34
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tkowith gtk it's hacked into the widgets20:35
manaPirati "think" i understand :)20:37
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|tbb|does the nokia bluetooth keyboard work with the n77k20:55
timelessseems to, assuming there's only one such device and you mean n77020:55
|tbb|yeah, i mean the 77020:57
|tbb|is it possible to set the font size of the news feed reader applet on the home screen?20:59
manaPirathmm .. after this evening of internet and IRC-Research i wonder which framework, and which framewirk will lead the mobile-linux devices market in the upcomming future .....21:00
manaPirataah "and which company"21:00
manaPiratthey all have pros and cons ...21:01
manaPiratmaemo: first consumer product out there21:01
manaPiratTrolltechs qtopia-phone with the greenphone: first real open linux phone21:02
manaPiratFIC's openmoko: seems to have cheaper and better hardware than trolltech21:02
* manaPirat sighs due to that choices ...21:03
* koen coughs21:03
koenwho called the greenphone open?21:03
koenqtopia is still closed source21:03
manaPiratwell .. the libs arent open, thats right :)21:03
koenand the sdk license is gpl incompatible21:04
manaPiratokay, its the first "you can do homebrew" phone, isnt it?21:04
koenso you can even *create* gpl software with it21:04
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manaPiratyou mean you "cant"?21:04
koenyou're aren't allowed to create gpl software with the sdk21:04
koenthe license says you can only code for qtopia platforms21:04
koenwhich is gpl incompatible21:05
manaPiratand you are not allowed to sell the stuff if you use the community SDK right? ;)21:05
manaPiratsooooo .. when will the first smartphone with maemo arive? .. i need a small linux phone with terminal-server client :D .. shit ...21:06
ssvbmaybe a stupid question, how can I enable core dumps generation on Nokia 770?21:06
tkossvb, mkdir /media/mmc1/core-dumps21:09
* manaPirat unknown command ssvb,21:11
mgedminexport PS1="ssvb, "21:12
manaPirat*g* eeks with alzheimer's disease? ;)21:13
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mgedminPS1="computer, "21:13
mgedminlooks interestingf21:13
mgedmin"computer, ls this directory"21:14
mgedmin"computer, run that program"21:14
manaPirattscha .. develop maemo to have vioce recognition21:14
manaPirat"computer, enable washing machine" .. the wired home sweet home21:14
manaPirator wireless, if you like21:14
manaPirat"Mr. i want my washing machine having at lest 128 Mbps"21:15
ljpkoen: you dont know what you are talking about., you can make GPL apps with the greenphone sdk21:15
* manaPirat doesnt know who is right. But the question is the same: Which open linux smartphone will be the first end-user ready?"21:17
koenyou said 'open', and right now there is none21:17
manaPiratand when will it arive :D my decision on a new cellphone will depend on that :-/21:18
manaPiratyep, well it depends on how you define it21:18
manaPirati like the competition that will arise if only the vendors and communitys try to reach compatibility21:19
jjazzQtopia offers a GPL sdk the purpose of which is to allow creation of GPL'd apps.21:20
manaPiratso you can modify the SDK itself :)21:20
jjazzmanaPirat: I don't know about that.21:21
koenjjazz: no, they are not: "NOTE: Downloads for the Greenphone SDK and source code are temporarily unavailable.21:21
koenWe expect to make the packages available shortly."21:21
manaPiratwell they have to give away the sourcodes if it is GPL, you know? :DDD21:21
manaPiratkoen but i think that is due tot echnical problems?21:21
jjazzmanaPirat: I don't know that the SDK itself is GPL, just that they offer a GPL SDK.21:22
|tbb|anyone able to port macchanger for the n770?21:22
ljpqtoia 4.2 will be released GPL21:22
ssvbtko: thanks a lot, that's quite an important information, is it available in howto/tuturuial/wiki or anywhere else?21:23
manaPiratthat is good news21:23
manaPirat*openly asks:* has anybody insider-information if there is a maemo-enabled smartphone to arive from nokia until january? ;)21:24
koenmanaPirat: if it were from nokia, it wouldn't be open21:24
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manaPiratbut thier tablet PC is, well "open" isnt it?21:25
ljpnothing is ever good enough for koen21:26
tkossvb, I'm not sure21:26
manaPirathehe :)21:26
mgedmindepends upon your definition of "open", I guess21:26
manaPiratja, said that before mgedmin :)21:26
mgedminit is more open than, say, PalmOS devices21:26
mgedminit is less open than I initially expected21:26
manaPiratthey provide propritary device drivers, he?21:26
manaPiratthats not good :)21:26
mgedminalmost all the end-user apps are closed21:27
manaPiratand the drivers?21:27
mgedminso you can't even fix bugs in Notes21:27
manaPiratand user apps are replaceable :D21:27
mgedmin(well, there is MaemoPad which is open source)21:27
jjazzmgedmin: What's the status of efforts to replace the user apps with open versions?21:27
mgedminI don't know21:27
manaPirati think they fear that the next open phone might popup and use the gpled-and-user applications *g* that would indeed suck for nokia21:27
mgedminI'm not that much of a free software zealot21:28
manaPiratand = end21:28
mgedminI would like it a lot better if the input stuff weren't closed21:28
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jjazzI am a zealot.  Opening the source makes it much more likely that the app will improve.21:28
mgedminI can't input Lithuanian letters even though the handwriting engine itself recognizes them -- but there's no language choice that would let me actually write them21:28
ajturnerjjazz - I wonder if that's really true21:29
jjazzmgedmin: That sucks.21:29
ajturnerI hear people say that alot21:29
ajturnerbut I'm not convinced21:29
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* mgedmin is zealot enough to prefer free software, but not zealot enough to start a free software Internet Tablet OS clone21:29
timelessms wins a prize, even nokia can't be that bad21:29
jjazzajturner: Let me put it this way.  With closed source, only Nokia can improve it.  If they open the source, Nokia and thousands of others can improve it.  Odds are that Lithuanian input would exist if the input code was open.21:30
jjazzmgedmin: I'm definitely zealot enough to only choose a tablet/phone that is open and hackable.21:30
timelessmgedmin what exactly do you need for lithuanian letters? last i checked there weren't even  fonts for some of the chars21:31
mgedminall the chars are there21:32
mgedminI can type them with the virtual keyboard in the "misc accents" section, which is inconvenient21:32
mgedminthe handwriting engine shows me the shapes of all of them21:32
mgedminbut when I actually try to input them, they are not recognized21:32
ajturnerjjazz - Im' not saying it "can't", just that I wouldn't assume that open-source = gets better21:32
timelessdo you want handwriting recognition or just a keyboard map?21:32
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mgedminI assume that's because neither my primary nor secondary input language uses them21:32
jjazzajturner: open source isn't always better, but it's always the chance for better21:32
manaPirat*lol* this URL is good :D21:32
ajturnerthe best option is usually to open the app for extensions21:33
mgedmin(I chose English and Danish in the handwriting properties, because Lithuanian just ain't there)21:33
mgedmintimeless: both21:33
timelessmgedmin: seriously, pay attn, what precisely do you need21:33
ajturnerso core stable functionality is there, and very easy for any/all users to extend - like new input methods21:33
mgedmintimeless: when I draw any of ąčęėįšųūž in the handwriting area, I want that letter to appear in the relevant text box21:34
|tbb|does anyone know how much effort does it take to port macchanger to n770?21:34
mgedminalso, I would like to have a custom virtual keyboard map with these letters on the first screen, and not hidden in a tab21:34
mgedminbut I am not sure it is possible to cram that many additional letters on screen, so handwriting would perhaps be enough21:35
timelessdon't forget that shift is available21:35
timelessi'm guessing that being able to munge a keylayout for the osk would be much easier than handwriting recognition21:35
timelessalso keep in mind that you could probably be /very/ evil about your use of dead keys if necesssary21:36
mgedminthe thing that interests me is that if I open the handwriting teaching app, I see a lot of accented letters there in the Western section, including all Lithuanian letters21:37
mgedminyet when I draw them in the vkb, they are not recognized21:37
timelesscan you give me steps to reach one of those keys in teach?21:37
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mgedminsorry, my memory tricked me21:38
mgedminI do not see "ą" in the list of Western characters21:39
mgedminbut if I go to Shortcuts (Western) and try to draw a shape like "ą"21:39
timelessdo me a favor and give me specific steps21:39
timelessand don't include pasting chars into this irc session21:39
timelessi can't see them21:39
mgedminI get this error popup: "Entered shape is too similar to the already defined character ą"21:39
timelessyou're free to provide unicode character references21:39
timelessor urls to them21:39
manaPiratwell .. i think my decission is made ..21:39
* manaPirat will wait for the OpenMoko phone21:39
mgedminą is U+010521:40
ssvbtko: hmm, still no luck, gdb from scratchbox refused to load core file: 'GDB can't read core files on this machine' :(21:40
roopehandwriting works so that each language recognizes a different set of characters.21:40
roopeSo that accented characters that are not in the scope of that language are not then a part of the HWR set of that language.21:41
timelessso far it looks like you'll get to hack an xml file21:41
* timeless frowns21:42
timelessyou're sure the code you need isn't available?21:42
timelessthe code i'm reading implies it would be21:42
timelesslibimlayouts-generator 1.5.6-1 is listed in various places on the web21:43
* mgedmin wonders what timeless meant by "code" in this context... source code or a unicode codepoint?21:44
|tbb|timeless could u port macchanger to n770?21:45
timelessi have work to do21:45
timelessso, no, i can't randomly port apps i have on interest it21:45
* timeless frowns21:46
timelesslemme find someone who knows how to actually work apt21:46
* timeless uses scripts21:46
|tbb|i was just asking, asking doesnt cost anything21:46
* mgedmin wonders what libimlayouts-generator is21:46
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* mgedmin looks for xml files with language descriptions, but finds only a binary /usr/share/simpliwrite/ blog so far21:49
timelessafaik it's what you want21:49
|tbb|timeless does it take long to port a app like macchanger?21:50
mgedmin|tbb|: what does that app do?21:50
timelessi maintain ports, i don't port things21:50
mgedminif it is a simple command-line app that is already packaged for Debian/Ubuntu, I can try to build an armel package for it21:50
|tbb|it does change ur macadress21:51
|tbb|its a commandline app21:51
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timelessthere's a doc for this21:51
timelessmgedmin: do you have an email address?21:51
mgedmintimeless: marius@pov.lt21:52
* mgedmin found /usr/share/libimlayouts/fileformat.html in his scratchbox21:52
timelessyeah, that's what i'm reading21:52
* timeless stops reading it21:53
mgedmindoes the handwriting engine pick up a set of acceptable characters from a .vkb file?21:53
mgedminor are these just for the virtual on-screen keyboard?21:53
timelessnot sure how to figure that out offhand, gimme a bit21:53
* timeless goes to figure out what simpliwrite is21:54
timelessit has help!21:55
timelessok, simpliwrite looks like it's harder21:56
timelesslithuanian you said?21:57
mgedminI've just built it, I haven't tested it21:57
mgedmintimeless: yes21:57
timelessnot sure how this works, but it might work21:57
timelessi certainly don't see any list saying "this will not work with lithuanian" :)21:58
mgedminthank you for all the help21:58
mgedminum, I'd appreciate a pointer to some sample xml files for gen-vkb21:59
roopehandwriting has separate files than vkb.21:59
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timelessi can't figure out if the blob is something that is custom tailored to some list of supported inputs22:01
timelessit's quite possible it is22:01
timelessif it is, you'd probably need to figure out who or what simpliwrite is and buy a new blob :)22:01
timelessdoes 'a result in a single character when you try it?22:09
roopebtw, for some accented characters, for instance ä, it uses the base pattern for a and then just puts ¨ there. So you can't train ä, but you can train a.22:10
roopee gives é, è, ë etc.22:10
mgedmin'a results in either a or 'a, depending on the distance between ' and a22:11
* timeless grumbles at having to specify the language for input22:11
timelessactually, the recognition is fairly good imo22:11
roopeIt tries to optimize recognition by decreasing thje amount of possible candidates.22:11
roopeSo that if you're writing finnish it doesn't even try to match against some weird patterns.22:12
mgedminwhich is a good idea22:12
roopeFor 2006 there's the ... hwr training, if you remove a large amount of unsuitable patterns, the end result is quite good actually.22:12
timelessok, let's see what we have22:13
timelessok, looks like the rest of this stuff isn't gpl :(22:13
roopeYeah, it's the engine as shown in the link, which is a commercial product.22:13
timelessyou're in luck, i think22:13
timelesslemme see if i can verify22:14
mgedminit wouldn't be too bad if the language definition files were open22:14
timelesshrm, you're mostly in luck22:14
timelessi just don't know what vcs this stuff comes from22:14
timelessroope: is it safe to say that none of these files have changed since 2005?22:15
timelessmgedmin: it wouldn't help22:15
timelessthe app hard codes mappings22:15
timelessyou're either lucky or unlucky22:15
timelessin this case, i believe you're lucky22:15
* mgedmin wonders what that means22:15
roopethe language files, yes I guess.22:16
timelesseither the app hard codes your language, or it doesn't22:16
timelesswell, no, the mappings22:16
roopeHWR patterns?22:16
timelessif the language file doesn't exist, it could be added22:16
timelessif the mapping from language name to file isn't in a configurable place22:16
timelessthen you need to reinvent a binary application22:16
timelesswhich is much harder than a data file22:16
|tbb|could it be that i cant reboot my device while chargin?22:19
timelessum, i do that all the time22:20
mgedmin|tbb|: you can kinda reboot it, but not completely22:20
mgedminmost of the processes remain running in the background22:20
mgedminif you want a full reboot, you have to unplug it22:20
|tbb|i cant start the application manager any more22:21
timelessdoes gconf have human readable descriptions for its prefs?22:21
mgedmingconf schemas usually have them22:21
timelessbecause if it does, i bet you could figure out how to pick the language you want22:21
mgedminsomewhere deep in /var/lib/gconf22:21
timelessyeah, i'd suggest you grovel through the schemas then22:21
mgedmin/etc/gconf/schemas/hildon_inputmethod.schemas ?22:22
timelessroope: is it ok if i give a hint?22:22
timelesssounds likely22:22
* timeless tries to figure out how these things are sorted22:24
* mgedmin wishes he knew how to use gconftool22:24
* timeless doesn't :)22:24
mgedmindo you think I can add lt_LT to /apps/osso/inputmethod/available_languages and it will start working?22:27
mgedminor should I set the secondary_language?22:27
timelessi wouldn't try messing w/ primary if i risked not being able to use the machine again by doing so :)22:27
* mgedmin discovers gconftool-2 -a /apps/osso/inputmethod22:28
timelessok, at some point i suspect you're going to need a magic number22:30
timelessthe magic number for today is it_IT+722:31
mgedminonly I do not see a place to put it22:31
timelessyeah, well, some people have problems :)22:31
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timelesswhat keys were you considering?22:31
mgedminavailable_languages and secondary_language22:32
timelesskeep in mind, that i've never been foolish enough to delve into gconf22:32
* timeless wonders what available_languages looks like22:33
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roopeI was actually positively suprised by HWR when I tried it recently. It worked better than from the last time I remember using it.22:34
* timeless too22:35
timelessum, where's gconf?22:35
mgedminif you log into a 770 and type that gconftool-2 command I wrote earlier, you will see the current values of all settings22:35
mgedminthey are stored in xml files under /var/lib/gconf/, but I do not know if you can edit them there22:35
* mgedmin did gconftool-2 -s /apps/osso/inputmethod/available_languages -t list --list-type string '[pt_BR,en_GB,fr_CA,it_IT,de_DE,fr_FR,es_ES,sv_SE,pt_PT,es_MX,en_US,el_GR,ru_RU,nl_NL,fi_FI,da_DK,no_NO,lt_LT]'22:36
* mgedmin did gconftool-2 -s /apps/osso/inputmethod/secondary_language -t string 'lt_LT'22:36
timelesspersonally not that ou need to, i'd reboot my device :)22:36
mgedminI can now select lt_LT in the input method's Language menu, but none of the shapes I write are recognized22:36
timelessi'm certainly not going to stick a debugger up and follow the full code flow22:37
mgedminthere is certainly a mapping from locale names (en_GB) to something the handwriting engine uses22:37
timelesscan you possibly dump a full gconf tree into a pastebin?22:39
timelessi'm using a 770, and trying to find what i'm looking for w/ it is a bad use of my time22:39 is reasonably responsive22:39
mgedminfull XML dump?22:40
mgedminof the /apps/osso subtree?22:41
|tbb|for what is this ? ->  gconftool22:41
mgedminjust a sec... I'd like to strip my account passwords from it22:42
* timeless finds the next roadblock22:44
timelessdid you create a vkb file?22:45
mgedminnot yet22:45
* timeless would suggest copying some random locale22:45
timelessgo for italian or russian22:45
timelesssomething you'll recognize22:46
mgedmingladly, if I could find an xml file to copy22:46
mgedminhmm ah, it would work with a binary one too22:46
timelessright, just steal an existing binary22:46
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timelessyou need to get used to the way reverse engineering works22:46
timelessfeed things you have that work to things you think will use them22:46
timelessthen corrupt the data as needed22:46
timelessalthough my guess is that the open tool we mentioned earlier will solve half that problem22:47
timeless(kinda silly that the xml files aren't open though...)22:47
mgedminan interesting observation: if I select lt_LT as the language from the popup keyboard menu, then the Input method submenu shows both keyboard and handwriting options as disabled22:47
timelessit would22:47
mgedminperhaps I should compile a system loale?22:48
timelessit's not going to let you use them because it didn't find the vkb22:48
mgedminI created a lt_LT.vkb -> ru_RU.vkb symlink22:48
mgedminmaybe I need to reboot again22:48
* timeless reads carefuly22:48
timelessactually, there are some regulations about reverse engineering22:49
timelessi hope you're not violating the terms of the license22:49
timelessyou did read the nokia license, right? :)22:49
* timeless likes "You may not ... tranlsate ... the Software ... except as expressly provided in this Agreement."22:50
mgedminI think the laws here explicitly allow reverse engineering for interoperability purposes22:50
timelesswhat interop purpose do you have?22:51
mgedminmyself interoperating with the device?22:51
timelessdoes that count?22:51
mgedmincan poking around in gconf be called reverse engineering?22:51
* timeless frowns22:51
timelessnah, but munging the vkb file probably would be22:52
timelessthankfully using the publicly available generator shouldn't be22:52
timelessand since you have the source for that, it's pretty safe to say that you're fine as long as you just use it22:52
mgedminmaybe I should just file a wishlist bug22:52
timelessmy guess is that you'll be stuck tryiing to generate an equivalent of the english keymap22:52
timelessyou should be able to do that and once you've done that you can generate a more useful map22:52
timelessthat /should/ be ok, but IANAL either22:53
timelessfeel free to wishlist, but unless you're offering $$$$$$ and users, i don't expect it to go somewhere22:53
timelesshrm, make that EUR not USD :)22:53
* timeless can't figure out this license at all22:54
timelessit seems to be talking about things that don't make sense22:54
timelessanyway, i think you should be able to figure out how to write an xml file22:55
mgedminactually, about that vkb generator: its documentation documents the binary file format, but not the input XML schema22:55
timelessthe source you have shouldn't be that bad22:56
timelessyeah, i saw that22:56
mgedminwhich is a bit strange22:56
timelessyeah, that was my thought at first22:56
timelessanyway, it looks simple enough22:57
mgedminnot without documentation/samples/sources22:58
mgedminlibimlayouts-generator is in the non-free section22:58
mgedminanyway, big thanks for the support22:58
mgedminit's time for me to go home22:59
timelessyeah, i'm still trying to figure out why it's in nonfree22:59
timelessoh, cute22:59
* timeless grumbles22:59
* timeless will bother a lawyer22:59
* timeless frowns23:00
timelesswhat in the world?23:00
timelessyeah, time for me to bother a laywer23:00
mgedmin(and that concludes the demonstration of the inferiority of closed-source software)23:01
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* timeless shrugs23:01
timelessyou don't want to read the code23:01
timelessactually, in this case it might be moderately pretty23:01
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tbbwhich browser do u prefer on ur n77023:36
timelessit's really fast and low bandwidth :)23:37
tbb? confused23:42
timelesswhat's confusing?23:43
tbbdont know what u mean with ssh/screen/links23:44
timelesslinks is a web browser, screen is a way to run an app and recover its console from another session23:45
timelessssh is a way to talk to remote computers23:45
timelesspersonally i don't like web content (flash, java, ...), and i usually don't care about images23:46
timelessso why not use a text browser?23:46
tbbnice never heard of links, lynx is what i like also :)23:47
tbbhow to use screen?23:48
timelessscreen gives help when you start it23:50
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tbbdont know fr what screen is usefull23:57
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