IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2006-11-06

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littlefaeSomeone here, dunno who, I owe a favour to. :)02:33
littlefaeSo, if you're the one who did the port of tinyfugue, I thank you, from the bottom of my heart! :D  I now have a telnet and MUSH client, making my 770 perfect. :D02:34
TakI just rebuilt the deb in scratchbox02:45
Takno big deal02:45
littlefaeWell I thank you all the same. :)02:53
littlefaeSeems to respect all the original settings I normally use, so I'd say its perfect. :)  Perhaps Ken Keys would add it as a potential fork, for future upgrades, if you mail him? :)02:54
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Takweird - my zoom in key just got stuck down04:28
Takand no amount of pushing zoom out (or other keys) would fix it04:31
Takwell, except the power key ;-)04:31
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revweird, tak, weird05:07
Takno kidding05:14
Takseems fine after a reboot05:14
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revanyone know of a GBA emulator for the 770?05:53
Takgba's a little more hp than a nes, right?06:04
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revtak: a GBA is about the same power as an SNES06:51
revTak: it's an ARM-based device  too06:51
Takhm06:52
Takwon't be as easy as a rebuild of a c app, then ;-)06:52
revwell06:52
revwhy wouldn't it be?06:52
revmost of the emulators i've used are pretty portable, written in straight C06:53
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Takright, but I think an snes emu in c would be too slow on an n77006:53
Takfce ultra (nes) only runs with a little frame skipping06:53
revah06:53
revi've not tried any emulator on my nokia06:54
revi've used a GBA and aNES emulator on my axim, but that has a 624 mhz cpu06:54
revfrankly, for the game i want to play it could play at half speed and thatwould be fine06:54
revlooks like someone ported it to the zaurus, and it is very slow on the zaurus from what i'm reading06:55
revoh well06:55
revnot that i expected much more06:55
revbut it would've been nice06:55
Taksomebody on ITT was talking about snes/genesis emulators in pure arm asm, but I doubt anything's going to come of it06:56
revyeah06:56
revprobably not :P06:57
TakI'll look at a gba emu in case you want to try anyway06:57
revthat'd be awesome!06:58
reveven if ti was super slow it'd be of use to me06:58
revi'm going to be playing a turn-based game, not a platformer... it can be slow as molasses and i'd be happy06:58
revlookslike the existing emulator- Visual Boy Advance- uses SDL06:59
revd'oh07:00
revgotta run tak07:00
revbut thanks!07:00
revpeace07:00
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tigertmorning07:57
roopeCanola looks interesting.08:16
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tigertcanola?08:28
tigertmorning btwq08:28
tigertah that one08:31
tigerton planet08:31
tigerttoijala08:32
roopethere's a video on youtube.08:35
tigertok08:36
tigertI dont think I want to tty it on gprs now but maybe later in the office08:36
tigertit looked interesting yeah08:36
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tanthalasHi, I'm having some trouble installing different versions of tar and gzip onto my maemo device (it's a Nokia 770) ... in my /bin right now are two binaries, tar-1.13 and gzip, but when I try to run them, I get an error saying "not found"10:29
tanthalashere's the results of my attempts: http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/Po5nCE81.html10:31
velithat usually happens if the runtime-linker cannot be found..10:32
veliwhere did you get those binaries?10:32
tanthalasI'm trying to follow instructions from this site10:32
tanthalashttp://vidar.gimp.org/armedslack-packages-on-the-nokia-770/10:32
tanthalasso the binaries are from the armedslack server10:33
koenafaik armedslack isn't EABI10:33
vidartanthalas: hey. i just replied to your comment. :)10:33
vidarthe armedslack binaries won't run under the 2006 images. :/10:33
tanthalasoh, hi vidar, great10:34
tanthalasi see10:34
* vidar should put an obsoletion warning on that page...10:34
tanthalasinteresting ... so has anyone here managed to successfully run scratchbox through sbrsh ?10:34
koenI have, but not using the 77010:34
tanthalas(because that requires setting up an nfs client on the device)10:34
timelesswho wrote that?10:35
tanthalasi suppose the more direct question would be if anyone has successfully gotten nfs to work on the 770 ever since the 2006 os10:35
timelessbecause (there packages are under "n", by the way) should probably say "these"10:35
tanthalasthanks for the quick response though, vidar10:35
vidarno prob. sorry i couldn't be more helpful.10:36
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timelessah, so vidar, that's for you to fix if you treat blog entries as mutable :)10:38
tanthalashttp://ufo2000.sourceforge.net/10:38
tanthalaser10:38
tanthalasoops10:38
tanthalas(but as a sidenote it's interesting to see some people get that game working on the 770)10:40
JaffaMorning, all10:41
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koengah11:02
koenallegro insist on running generated binaries during its build11:02
Jaffaeugh11:02
koen| obj/unix/asmdef: obj/unix/asmdef: cannot execute binary file11:02
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_follower_on a scale of 0-10 how stupid would i be to try and use crosstool to create a toolchain to enable me to build maemo things on OS X?11:04
koen_follower_: you need more patches than crosstool provides11:05
koen_follower_: and iirc crosstool doesn't support CSL toolchains (which maemo uses)11:06
_follower_koen: thanks, so, maybe a 9? :-) do they exist? or would I have to create them?11:06
_follower_CSL?11:06
koenCodeSourceryLabs11:06
_follower_ah, thanks.11:07
koenI did have an EABI toolchain on osx a while back, but that was using glibc 2.5 and gcc 4.1.1, so it won't work on maemo11:07
_follower_ah... :-(11:08
_follower_i11:08
_follower_i've been able to get a barely runnable Ubuntu Live CD running on QEmu so i've been wondering what my best option is in terms of trying to do some development on my mac... i wonder if i'm better to try to get scratch box running on os x, crosstool on os x or just try for some sort of minimal install of stuff to enable scratch box to run on a qemu setup on os x... any suggestions?11:10
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ssvbkoen: allegro builds fine in scratchbox, but you need to use SVN version or 4.2.1 once it gets released11:15
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koenssvb: 4.2.1 doesn't try to run generated binaries?11:19
ssvbkoen: i'm not sure, but i did not have any problems with building it, by the way 'asmdef' seems suspicious, if you want to use allegro on arm, you don't need asm11:21
koenssvb: I'm using a crosscompiler, not scratchbox11:21
ssvbkoen: i mean it does not have any arm specific asm code yet11:21
ssvbtry different configure options, maybe '--disable-asm' may help11:22
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ssvbkoen: what is the reason for not using scratchbox? are you trying to build it for other devices too?11:25
koenssvb: yes11:25
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AD-N770good morning11:51
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timelessyes11:54
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florian_kcgood morning12:15
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Jaffalo florian_kc12:23
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tigertlo12:25
tigertquick poll everyone: what is the reason the 770 is interesting to you?12:25
tigertI know "linux" and "hackability" already :)12:25
tigertbut those of you who use it a lot, what is the most useful thing?12:26
koentigert: maemo-mapper12:26
_follower_it's smaller than a laptop...12:27
koentigert: opera is evil, so I don't use it12:27
koentigert: and since the addressbook crashes everytime I want to import a vcard, I don't use that either12:27
_follower_(downside: it's still bigger than a smartphone)12:27
tigert:)12:28
_follower_not entirely related, but I was thinking the other day about what it could be used for when it's "obsolete" e.g. cheap and "discarded". i think it has great potential as an obsolete platform--I just have to wait for it to get there. :-)12:29
_follower_tigert: what's the motivation for the question?12:29
glasstigert: web browsing is the reason12:30
glasswell12:30
glassi sometimes seem to use it on the road for streaming shoutcast radios12:30
glassif my ipod runs out of juice12:30
tigert_follower_: :)12:32
X-Fadetigert: For me it is mainly webbrowsing and voice calls over gtalk. Remote managing of servers over ssh if I'm on the road.12:46
tigertyea12:46
tigertglass: web browsing on the go?12:47
JaffaOne thing I've realised is it's more read-only than I thought it would be (for my use cases), so the thoughts you've already had tigert about extending it into an offline syncing tool for email, blogging etc. meets my needs (especially since the reception on the West Coast Main Line at 100-odd MPH from London to Rugby is patchy at best)12:47
tigertglass: or why is it better than a laptop?12:47
JaffaIt's cheaper and more portable.12:47
glasstigert: using a laptop in a bus sucks12:47
tigertyea12:47
tigertJaffa: yea, this whole "web 2" idea is to be both viewer and producer of stuff12:47
tigertand the production part needs more work12:48
tigertlike on flickr the opera gives javascript errors on most intereting things12:48
tigertlike when you try to add tags or push photos to groups12:48
glasstigert: also it's a lot cheaper than a laptop, a lot smaller too12:48
X-Fadetigert: I still thinkg that input is the main problem. What ever you use, it isn't as fast as a keyboard.12:48
tigertX-Fade: I have learned to like the thumb keyboard quite a lot12:49
glassmatters less if i lose it than my lappy12:49
tigertits the best compromise so far12:49
tigertand I wouldnt want to use a usb keyboard, too much stuff to carry around12:49
X-Fadetigert: Yep it is.12:49
tigerterm, bluetooth keyboard even12:49
_follower_tigert: i'd still like to be able to see what i'm typing with the thumb keyboard....12:49
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X-FadeExtra/external keyboards are no good when on a bus ;)12:50
tigertyou sort of can12:50
tigertbut yea12:50
glassyeah carrying extra stuff sucks.. (i got a bt keyboard i barely use)12:50
tigertit borks a lot with long texts12:50
tigertits supposed to edit a chapter at a time12:50
_follower_as if it was an overlay rather than a opaque thing12:50
tigertbut it sometimes gets it very wrong and messes things up12:50
_follower_a chapter?12:50
tigert_follower_: not going to happen with the "cheap" and "arm processor"12:50
glassevery-second pixel transpa might work12:51
_follower_tigert: i figured as much12:51
tigertglass: I'd say not. its a huge amount of copying12:51
X-Fadetigert: I disagree.12:51
X-FadeWhile typing something, your webpage remains static.12:52
tigertthe biggest problem is12:52
X-FadeSo it shouldn't have to redraw..12:52
tigertits CRITICAL to the thumb keyboard usability to be able to see the keys12:52
tigertat least in my experience12:52
_follower_X-Fade: yes!12:52
tigertto see it actually got pressed, and to get a sound click from the touch screen12:52
_follower_it's the redraw action that's a pain12:52
X-Fadeyeah, but 20% transparancy whould be nice.12:52
tigertthis improves tyåing speed a lot12:52
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* Jaffa 'd be more impressed by the thumb keyboard if the "touchscreen makes a sound" was linked to an actual control being hit, otherwise the touchscreen sounds is a little less useful.12:52
tigertX-Fade: it already takes annoyingly long to open the thumb keyboard12:53
_follower_i'd be happy if the keyboard was larger and just pushed the view "up" but didn't force a redraw12:53
X-Fadetigert: yeah, but that is not in the drawing phase ;)12:53
tigertJaffa: yea, that is a problem12:53
tigertJaffa: still, it helps my tyåing screen a LOT when sounds are loud12:53
JaffaIs Gtk's (or the touchscreen's) processing of presses on the thumbboard more clever? i.e. average out the area of detected press to localise it. I'd've thought it was, but a lot of the time I get "@" rather than "p" etc.12:54
keesjI will flash my nokia with the update 2006,12:55
keesjit it good to backup , or is it better to redo from start?12:55
tigertJaffa: I am not sure12:56
tigertJaffa: itd be interesting to do some dictionary matching to try to guess better12:56
tigertbut it might get complicated12:56
tigertlike automatic typo correction in word processors12:57
koennoooo!12:57
tigert:)12:57
tigert:))12:57
koenautomatic typo correction sucks12:57
tigertyea, I know12:57
tigertit does12:57
* timeless sighs12:57
tigert:)12:57
timelessuse 2005,, it's a better platform12:57
koentry typing a report in word12:57
tigertlets not go there :)12:57
timelessit has a working pdf reader12:57
tigertnow its lunchtime12:57
tigert:)12:57
X-FadeMaybe a thumb-t9 keyboard ;)12:57
koen'ethernet' -> 'etherniet'12:58
X-Fadekoen: It always sucks on technical terms :)12:58
timelessi'm cutious12:58
timelesswhat themes do people here use?12:59
X-FadeLCARS12:59
glassdefault, i'm not that picky12:59
keesjdefault12:59
glassand as i use it mostly for web browsing in fullscreen..12:59
roopemorning.13:00
koenX-Fade: I only use word when working with non latex-savvy people doing technical reports :)13:00
timelessglass: thanks for noting that :)13:00
timelessout of curiosity, how do you get to pages?13:00
roopeI don't think transparency would work with the thumb keyboard. It gets too messy.13:01
roopeOr then it's too weak to really see anything.13:01
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roopeNot to mention the technical problems with refreshing, updates etc.13:01
koenand with greasy fingers on the screen13:01
netmaskhello13:02
glasstimeless: with the bottom of screen thingy13:02
timelessglass: always present, or when you need it?13:02
_follower_roope: yeah, that's true. i retract that request and go with the "just don't redraw" and "make the keys larger" :-)13:02
glassthe sites i visit are in the last typed list13:02
glassalways present13:02
timelessand you use the drop down, so you aren't actually typing13:02
roopeEven larger? Aren't they pretty much maxed out? :)13:03
timelessinteresting, thanks13:03
timelessanyone else?13:03
timelessglass: do you use bookmarks?13:03
glasstimeless: not really13:03
glassi never seem to get around to making them :p13:03
roopeThe horizontal width, that is. Increasing height doesn't really bring benefits if the width stays the same.13:03
timelessglass: *nod*13:03
* timeless sighs13:05
timelessroope: i think i'm tempted to visit you13:05
* timeless needs to find someone13:05
_follower_roope: i meant the size of the keys on the "pop up" keyboard rather than the finger keyboard13:05
roopeOOh, ok.13:05
roopeWell. I can produce usability studies that indicate (that with a stylus) the width makes no difference to the input speeds. :)13:06
_follower_i.e. i'd like the popup keyboard to have larger keys and "popup" "over" the view instead of pushing it up.13:06
roopeThe larger they are, the more hand movements you have to make.13:06
roopefollower: ooh. well. wouldn't it suck?13:06
roopeVKB can have 50% less width and still retain about the same input speed.13:07
roopeIT's currently a bit too wide, actually, you need to move your hands slightly from one edge to another.13:07
roopeAn input method over the view could cover the content, or the input field you are inputting to.13:07
_follower_well yeah, but it would be smart enough not to :-)13:08
roopeThen what would be the benefit of this solution?13:08
_follower_i guess it would push it up sometimes (but *without* the redraw)13:08
roope"Sometimes" is difficult to specify.13:09
_follower_the benefit i'm looking for is making the popup keyboard have larger keys so it can be a finger keyboard, but also not force a screen redraw13:09
roopeIt either pushes up or it doesn't.13:09
roopeI see, but you really can't fit finger sized controls in a non-full screen solution.13:10
roopeYOu see the current finger keyboard, with 3 rows. Plus you need controls to switch the layouts. And space and backspace.13:10
roopeIf you make it smaller, it's not finger usable any more.13:10
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roopeIf you would have T9, for instance, you could have like a 12 finger button keyboard.13:12
roopeThat would fit in the same space as currently.13:12
roopeBarely. But a full qwerty cant.13:12
_follower_hmmm...13:12
_follower_well, looking at the current finger keyboard13:13
roope(which would be an interesting concept btw).13:13
_follower_you could still show the actual text entry area instead of showing just the text. (or reduce the number of "extra" keys)13:14
_follower_it'd be interesting to mock up something but it's probably beyond me at the moment. :-)13:15
roopeYou could, but what is "the actual"? An entry widget is just like any other widget. You're probably referring to the context, what is around that entry area, right?13:16
partit would be really nice to have free (ie. hackable) input methods13:16
_follower_roope: yeah, the context, i guess would be the word I was looking for. :-)13:16
roopeShowing the title of the text widget for instance would be nice.13:17
roopeBut then again, web pages have entry fields with no titles to them. Or the system cannot know what is the title.13:17
_follower_i was thinking more in context of xterm..13:17
_follower_(for example)13:17
keesjI used to use moostly the web browser.13:18
keesjnow I really often use mplayer and mediastreamer13:18
keesjand maemo-mapper is also quite some funny13:20
roopeIt's a worthwhile to study, but finger usability really requires quite big changes. I at least can't really see how to fit a keyboard on the screen without using the whole screen.13:24
roopeYou can cram it, but it won't be quick or usable, so. :)13:24
suihkulokkiroope: translucent fullscreen vkb =)13:24
roopeTake photoshop, take screenshot, take screenshot of finger keyboard, layer opacity 50%, enjoy the result. ;)13:25
partsuihkulokki: implementation, please :)13:25
_follower_roope: wait, photoshop runs on the 770??? :-)13:26
roopeIt barely works if you dim the background and put the keyboard opacity into ~80%, but then again, it cannot be implemented right now.13:26
roopeLauching and closing speeds should be ASAP anyway.13:27
roopeas small as possible. ;)13:27
keesjhmm , it's the second time my mmc card is redered unusable after installing maemo-mapper13:38
keesjdid anybody experiance the same problems?13:38
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partmmc card seems to be working, but maemo mapper only shows a black screen14:11
partseems to download a lot of maps when some magic URLs are inserted, just doesn't display anything14:12
timelessroope: fwiw web pages get really upset when they're shifted around14:13
timelessfor anything that does scrolling you're much better off *not* resizing the view and just letting the scrollbars deal14:13
timelessxterm w/ ssh+screen+epic is a great example too14:13
timelessbut imo maps.google.com is the more typical example14:14
timelessmuch better *never* telling the web app/remote app/whatever that the screen dimensions have changed14:14
timelessroope: feel free to visit14:15
inzHmm, I wonder if doing some ugly things with gtk_im_context_set_client_window could be used to prevent xterm from resizing...14:17
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Guardianhi14:36
keesjwow , the backup worked great!14:37
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roopeWell. In some cases, yeah. But it's a compromise.15:19
roopeThere are more cases where it is beneficial than those where it is harmful.15:19
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littlefaeHiya peeps16:16
Takmorning16:16
littlefaeDoes anyone know much about Xournal?16:18
_follower_littlefae: i've installed it16:18
_follower_is "ok" but has some performance issues16:19
littlefaeI have too, I love it, but.. I would like to open up the files on my Mac. :) Which is what my question is about.16:19
_follower_haven't done anything serious with it though...16:19
_follower_do you have any specific qstns?>16:19
littlefaeI am wondering if there is anything that can open the xor format, under OS X, since there is no Xournal available for OS X16:19
_follower_hmmm... i wonder if it would run under X11.app?16:21
_follower_do you want to edit or just view the files?16:21
littlefaeView, for printing etc. :)16:21
littlefaeIt's become my notepad you see, and I use it when war walking16:21
littlefaeWonder if there is a xournal room on here...16:22
_follower_have you tried "export to pdf"16:22
littlefaeOoh, no.. :o16:22
_follower_:-)16:23
_follower_i have a vague recollection of trying it but it looked a little "rough"--may depend on your pdf viewer though...16:23
_follower_anyway, I'd suggest that. :-D16:23
littlefaeOSX Preview. :D16:23
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_follower_wow, so, thanks to "Disk Inventory X" i just discovered a 1.1GB console.log file on my machine from a couple of months ago--i may yet find enough space to get a QEmu'd scratchbox...17:52
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_follower_Ok, so, any suggestions on what the minimum install of something I would need to setup scratchbox? (in terms of minimising both diskspace and processing when running seeing as i'll be VMing it...)18:51
_follower_hmmm, oh... :-( "3 GB of hard disc space when using rootstrap."18:55
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_follower_oh, maybe the liveCD? Has anyone had any experience with the live CD mentioned here: http://maemo.org/maemowiki/LiveCD ?19:06
_follower_hmmm judging by the file modification dates (june 2005) I guess not...19:08
mgedminIIRC it's for Maemo 1.119:09
* mgedmin found the 3 gigs for scratchbox somehow19:10
_follower_yeah, looks like it...19:10
_follower_currently I have 3-ish gigs for the OS install and the scratchbox :-(19:10
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_follower_is it usual to get "500 internal server error" on the maemo.org wiki at the moment?19:25
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dpb_follower_: works for me19:26
_follower_it does most of the time for me too--but when i've done searches and page edits in the last 30 min or so i've occasionally got 500's...19:27
* dpb shrugs19:27
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revhaha19:44
rever19:44
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jobihi all19:54
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MDKhey19:57
* MDK is giving scratchbox 1.0.6 + kernel 2.6.18 a spin19:58
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Takrev: ping gba/vba?20:05
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shaprTak: gameboy advance with Visual Basic for Applications??20:09
Taksounds like a match made in heaven, doesn't it?20:10
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timelessswift# zoneadm -z nexenta boot20:16
timelessWARNING: skipping interface 'lo' which may not be present/plumbed in the global zone.20:16
timelessoops20:16
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X-Fadebergie: How's the appcatalog work coming along? :)21:01
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bergiehi21:01
bergietigert was designing the UI today I believe21:01
bergiebut since I've been offline the whole day I haven't seen the results yet21:01
X-FadeYeah, saw his commit.21:01
X-FadeIt's on garage.21:01
bergieI have time booked for plugging his CSS into Midgard on friday but may do it earlier21:02
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bergienow Midgard produces different output than he needs so I need to modify that a bit21:02
X-FadeAh, yeah so that needs work.21:03
* timeless ponders21:04
timelessthere are living people here? :)21:04
X-Fadetimeless: Yes, only they have day jobs ;)21:04
bergieX-Fade: the default XHTML is obviously quite generic, and we wanted more finetuned stuff for maemo.org21:04
* timeless ponders21:05
timelessdoes a night job not count?21:05
X-FadeWell, they're busy during the day, so they can't respond on IRC?21:06
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X-FadeUnless you have time to IRC at work.21:06
timelessi have time to bug them directly at work21:06
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pokute_suihkulokki: translucent fullscreen dasher would be more fun.21:13
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waitehi all. Just got my 770. I was wondering how minisip (or other) sip client is running under 200621:40
keesjgizmo works ok21:42
waiteYeah but I want to connect to my SIp acct on a different provider21:43
keesjgoogle talk is in there by default , but it did not work together with linux google talk clients21:43
keesjwaite, In that area I am only a end user, so I really don't know21:43
waitenp. Ill keep lurking and poking. It sounds like minisip might be coming along21:44
keesjwaite, did you try it yet the minisip?21:47
waiteNo it has a comment that it does not work for 2006 yet but is being worked on21:48
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keesjA ok22:00
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