IRC log of #harmattan for Saturday, 2012-03-03

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pahow can i press "canc" on N9 keryboard?00:17
ajalkanewhat's a "canc" ?00:18
pacanc key00:18
pai see only backspace00:18
ajalkaneyou mean delete key?00:19
ajalkaneor esc?00:20
payes delete sorry00:20
ajalkaneyou need to use swype keyboard for that00:21
paah00:21
paits not there otherwise?00:21
pai see00:21
ajalkaneno, unless you edit the keyboard mappings00:21
ajalkanebut the swype keyboard has many other goodies also, like arrow keys etc.00:21
pai'd like00:23
pabut i tried to turn it on on 1.1 and it didnt really work00:23
ajalkanedid not? Has worked for me spendidly. What's the problem?00:23
ieatlintnote that in the terminal, there is an esc button00:24
pait did not appear at all00:24
paeven it was there00:24
ieatlintso if that's where you want it..00:24
ajalkaneyou need to swipe to get into the swype ;)00:24
paif i was pressing in the black, some keys were popping up00:24
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ieatlintit won't be on the keyboard, it'll be part of a toolbar just above it00:24
ajalkanehumm... that's weird00:25
ieatlintwell, the terminal may be in select mode... there's a button in the upper right to toggle that00:26
ieatlintwhen it's not in select mode, if the esc key isn't visible, swipe left/right on the terminal window and it will change the buttons shown on the toolbar00:26
ieatlint(god, this sounds a lot more complicated than it is)00:26
paah yes that i noticed00:27
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ajalkaneso when you activate swype, you just get black rectangle where keyboard is supposed to be?00:28
payes thats what i was getting00:29
panow im trying again00:29
ajalkanetry swyping the keyboard... you know, like when you change languages in the stock keyboard00:29
ajalkanemaybe that could resolve it. If not, rebooting phone could be the answer.00:29
ieatlintand don't confuse swipe, swype and the verb swipe... they're all different things :P00:30
ajalkaneyeah, forgive my drunken banter with mixed y's and i's00:30
panow it looks like it works00:31
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ajalkaneanyway, I just got a white N9 so I'm in a better mood than usually.00:32
ieatlintyay white00:33
ajalkaneSo shiny00:33
ieatlinti need a pink one00:33
ieatlintthen i'll have the full set00:33
ajalkaneIn my hours of desperation, when I thought I could never afford N9 (today), I tried to trade my gift Lumia in workplace's intranet to N9. No one took the bait, even as I embellished it with all the right words like "magnificient Lumia, Windows, "dead-on-arrival" N9 etc."00:35
ieatlinti'm shocked00:36
ieatlintwho wouldn't want a windows phone...00:36
ajalkaneAh no... I already tried that yesterday I think. Today I was ready to pull the trigger to exchange it with some anonymous person from internet. But the N9 would have been black 16GB00:36
ajalkaneYeah, I even tried "Pissed off you don't have Windows in your pocket?" line. I'm not sure what's wrong with those people. But I'm stuck with my Lumia.00:37
ieatlinthaha, i'd be tempted to do that... another n9 > lumia 80000:37
ajalkaneAt least it has Fruit Ninja. Good times.00:37
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ajalkaneYeah. I haven't used the Lumia for 2 months. Used it for 2 weeks after getting it. After that it's been sleeping it's coffin.00:38
ajalkane* in its00:38
ieatlinti just use my lumia phone to anonymously call 911 and report people i don't like as drunk drivers00:38
ieatlintit serves its purpose...00:38
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ajalkaneIt's a portable gaming console for me.00:38
ajalkaneIt's unbelievably hard to get multi-sim from operators in Finland. I want to have 2 sim cards, one for N950 and one for the N9. Seems to be hard.00:40
paitsnotabigtruck, yes this screen is a dust attractor00:41
DrGrovajalkane: I know a solution for this. Heard it from a Saunalahti guy.00:41
pajeez00:41
ajalkaneDrGrov: yeah? What's the solution? I was just today in the shop and the clerck just said "no can do"00:41
DrGrovajalkane: You would get 2 similar SIM cards with the same number, like a Mokkula and regular phone SIM cards. The problem is that one of them is the active one that gets all SMS / calls but you could use both still but one remains active and the other passive.00:42
DrGrovajalkane: Which operator did you go to and talked today?00:42
ajalkaneDrGrov: that's okay for me... I guess that's the MobiiliLaajakaista Plus?00:43
paquestion: harmattan is open source. are open source also the stock applications? like the camera app, for instance00:43
ajalkaneDrGrov: it was Elisa ShopIt00:43
DrGrovajalkane: Yes, that is the one. It would give you two similar numbers and one remains active and gets all SMS / calls etc. but still could use the other and gives the same number etc.00:44
ajalkaneBut it may be that the clerk just didn't know what he was talking about. But I wouldn't want to buy into something that I'm not sold as like it's supposed to do what I want00:44
DrGrovThat is how I was told, I trust the guy that told me00:44
DrGrovBut of course, good to get some type of confirmation about it. I could try to ask the guy next time I go in to Elisa Shopit where I live.00:44
ajalkaneDrGrov: yeah cool, I figured by reading the web-page it might work that way. I'll just need to go harass some other clerk with this information.00:44
DrGrovThe problem is that most clerks will not tell you that straight00:45
DrGrovSince they do not know it that it works like that. This guy I talked with is a serious haXXor and figured it out in some odd way and told me.00:45
DrGrovLOL00:45
ajalkaneYeah I think I'll just go asking for MobiiliLaajakaista Plus and start drilling from there deeper. I'm not sure why they seem reluctant to sell multi-sims nowadays00:45
DrGrovBut be sure that you can actually get it, they might try to "kusettaa" you :/00:46
DrGrovPiss you in the face when you are not watching :/00:46
itsnotabigtruckpa: no, not really00:46
SpeedEvilhttp://aaisp.net.uk/ - have stupidly flexible phone plans.00:46
SpeedEvilBut only in the UK00:46
ajalkaneHehe yeah... that's why I want assurance when I'm buying into it.00:46
itsnotabigtruckbasically none of the GUI except a few core components is open source00:46
DrGrovajalkane: I would not want to read in Ilta Sanomat or Iltalehti about a Finnish guy going berserk in a Elisa ShopIt and causing mass havoc :)00:47
paso basically if one ask for an enhancement, its only up to nokia. I cannot even do it myself?00:47
itsnotabigtruckpa: exactly :/ i really wish they'd open source everything practical00:47
itsnotabigtruckwell, probably most people here do00:47
ajalkaneDrGrov: I was really close to doing that when I noticed all N9 stands were replaced by Lumia stands. And all traces of N9s were removed.00:47
itsnotabigtruckobviously some things have legitimate business reasons going against it, but a lot of it seems to be "ugh, can't deal with the lawyers"00:48
pai would like to have a manual focus slider on the camera f. ex00:48
itsnotabigtruckwell, it might make sense to build an entirely new camera app00:48
pabut nokia dont seem too eager to accept my request00:48
Jareblah, you have to pay extra for mobiililaajakaista plus, but a few years ago you could get multisim (5 sims) relatively cheaply00:48
itsnotabigtruckPR1.2 comes with libfcam, which is apparently a library for providing super low level camera access00:48
DrGrovajalkane: I love to see that the N9 is pulled from the shelves. Makes me feel special.00:48
itsnotabigtruckthere's an app called fcamera for n900 that uses it for raw photos, exposure bracketing, and things like that00:48
paah creat00:48
pagreat00:49
pamaybe it can be even ported00:49
ajalkaneJare: It's only 5€ more from my current, and a bit faster data connection too00:49
DrGrovBut Mobiililaajakaista Plus is the only way I know about. I do not know any other way to get multi sim00:49
itsnotabigtruckalso ajalkane: i wasn't aware such a thing even existed00:50
DrGrovajalkane: What type of contract do you have? Something gigantic?00:50
ajalkaneDrGrov: hehe... I'm just getting a "I pity the fool..." feeling when I see someone with fake N9.00:50
itsnotabigtrucksounds like it's basically 2 lines00:50
itsnotabigtrucka data only line, and a data/voice line00:50
DrGrovajalkane: I think that the N9 is the last good phone Nokia made00:50
itsnotabigtruckthe two sims need to have two IMSIs in order to coexist00:50
ajalkaneDrGrov: No I just have the normal unlimited data that's something like 10€ per month. MobiiliLaajakaista is 14.9000:50
DrGrovBut the new 41 Mpix camera phone Nokia is releasing looks quite nice.00:50
DrGrovajalkane: Ok, I got myself the DNA Joustava 12000......00:51
* DrGrov runs and hides00:51
itsnotabigtruckajalkane: "fake N9" as in the lumia, or counterfeits00:51
ajalkaneDrGrov: yeah last good one for many years to come. I guess until 2015/2016 at least. Doesn't bother me. My previous phone was N95 so I'm willing to wait.00:51
itsnotabigtruckyeah, that's the thing, truly awesome phones don't need replacing every year or two00:51
ajalkaneI looked at DNA but they don't have multi-sim. And I really need to use my N950 also for development.00:51
ajalkaneitsnotabigtruck: fake N9 as in Lumia ;)00:52
itsnotabigtruckthey're built to last and refuse to go obsolete00:52
DrGrovajalkane: The only reason I went with DNA is that I got a good bandwith on Matkanetti 384... LOL00:52
DrGrovAnd I get a good signal anywhere I go with DNA. But I am thinking about changing to Saunalahti, not sure though. Perhaps later this year.00:53
ajalkaneitsnotabigtruck: true true, N9 was the first phone I was truly excited to get since N95 (N900 was close but not enough), so I'm quite sure I'll be using it for many years to come.00:54
ajalkaneDrGrov: why back to saunalahti?00:54
DrGrovajalkane: I have never had Saunalahti before, I might test it :)00:54
JareI was surprised how well voip seemed to work via DNA a couple of days ago, when my friend called00:54
Jarethere's no way I could get that low latency with Saunalahti00:55
DrGrovMy biggest problem is that I can not seem to find the perfect phone. I gone through 9 or 10 phones in 2 years.00:55
ajalkanehehe... but saunalahti just uses Elisa's network. DNA uses Sonera, right?00:55
DrGrovDNA has its own network00:55
DrGrovYes?00:55
Jareyep00:55
DrGrovJare: You mean DNA has its own network correct?00:55
Jareyes it has00:55
ajalkaneHmm... cool... Somenoe tell DNA to start selling multi-sims00:56
DrGrovOk, I am happy with DNA. Works well in the surroundings where I move00:56
itsnotabigtruckajalkane: can't you just get a 2nd data only line00:56
itsnotabigtruckpretty sure this multisim arrangement is in no way "normal"00:57
ajalkaneitsnotabigtruck: Yes I could, but I want it to work also as a phone.00:57
ajalkaneitsnotabigtruck: when I'm in middle of developing something and testing it, I want to take N950 with me but still receive and make calls with the same number00:57
DrGrovI require multi sim, god damn it. Why does it have to be so hard to get it?00:57
DrGrovThen I could finally breath a sign of relief to have 2 good phones combined and making me smile and not always look like I have betrayed myself00:58
ajalkaneI don't get it either. I guess they're trying to cash more money by forcing people to buy multiple accounts. I don't know. It seems stupid to me. I'm not buying multiple accounts.00:58
DrGrovYeah, feels stupid to keep buying more and more just to get a simple thing as multi sim.00:59
DrGrovI would love to get out in the summer with the "lighter" phone and then when I feel like taking the N9 I could do that as well00:59
DrGrovCertain situations are not that good for a N9 if I must choose which phone. Regular Nokia 50€ phone or a N9.01:00
ajalkaneYep. If it was a piece of cake I would take 3 sim cards, and then I could take Lumia with me to summer cottage. "Oops fell into water, no matter it's just a Lumia!"01:01
DrGrovajalkane: LOL :)01:01
TronicI got Mobiililaajakaista Plus just for the multi-sim, so I guess their business does work.01:01
DrGrovWell, I am off. Thanks for the talk01:01
ajalkanecya01:01
TronicIt's not that expensive, anyway, if you mainly use data.01:01
ajalkaneTronic: so calls/sms/mms works on both sims?01:02
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Jarewell it depends... it might be a good choice, if you get the promised bandwidth everywhere01:03
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Jareotherwise I'm just going to stick with the cheapest one (512kps)01:03
Jarekbps01:04
ajalkaneI have 384, I guess my account is just that old01:04
Tronicajalkane: SMS are only received on the primary SIM, other than that everything works on both.01:04
TronicYou can even call yourself and it will ring the other phone.01:04
TronicNormally when someone calls you, both phones ring.01:04
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ajalkaneTronic: okay too bad... but I guess I must live with that as there's no better alternative01:05
JareI would be interested in testing the more expensive data plans though01:06
Jarejust to see how bad qos settings they are using for the cheapest one ;)01:06
TronicJare: Elisa has a very good network and you actually do get several megabits even in cities and in far-away locations (like our family summer cabin, in Nauvo, on an island with no roads).01:06
TronicCompare that to DNA (Welho) which was heavily congested in Helsinki and that I didn't even try in remote locations.01:08
itsnotabigtruckajalkane: wait, so you're capped to umts speed?01:11
ajalkaneitsnotabigtruck: hmm? UMTS can theoretically go faster, doesn't it? It's in kbps01:12
itsnotabigtruckajalkane: vanilla umts only goes up to 384 kb/s both ways01:13
itsnotabigtruckwhich is what i thought you said you were limited to01:13
itsnotabigtrucki.e. very slow compared to the various sorts of HSPA01:14
ajalkaneyeah, that's what I'm limited to. I have very old account. I think something like 4-5 year old account.01:14
ajalkaneBut I don't really need anything faster. The latencies are more annoying to me.01:14
itsnotabigtruckhow much more does it cost to get real speed?01:15
itsnotabigtrucki was slightly disappointed in 2 Mb/1 Mb speed, 384 kb is pretty lame01:15
ajalkaneitsnotabigtruck: seems to be 15€ for 1Mbit/s and 21€ for up to 15Mbit/s (this one I wouldn't trust to give reliable performance)01:17
ajalkaneBut I dunno... 384 has been plenty for me. I just download feeds and surf web-sites. I'm not streaming videos or downloading torrents with my phone.01:18
itsnotabigtruckso $28/mo for the HSPA+ service...is there a usage cap?01:18
ajalkaneNo cap01:18
Jarewhat? I'm seeing 13.5€/month for the "15Mbps"01:18
ajalkaneJare: I'm looking at Mobiililaajakaista Plus, maybe there's cheaper plans?01:18
itsnotabigtruckthat's pretty steep but it also sounds par for the course, and no cap01:18
itsnotabigtruckthough maybe they have some soft cap stuff going on01:19
itsnotabigtrucke.g. reach 5 gb and you get throttled to 384k01:19
ajalkaneI don't think they have, Finland has pretty strict policies nowadays on that kind of stuff.01:19
Jareah, well it includes an usb modem and multisim01:19
ajalkaneI just got a call from my operator about that01:19
ajalkaneThey lowered my costs because the new laws require they must be able to give what they promise01:20
itsnotabigtruckusually tight regulation often causes operators to set up more caps and restrictions01:26
itsnotabigtruckin order to make sure everything's laid out explicitly while covering their asses01:26
itsnotabigtrucke.g. "unlimited" turning into a 1gb cap01:26
ajalkaneCould be. But Finland is pretty small country. I don't think here's that kind of problems (at least yet) with running out of bandwidth.01:27
itsnotabigtruckheh, true01:29
itsnotabigtruckthough isn't e.g. helsinki pretty dense01:29
njsfbandwidth is a density problem, not absolute dimension IMO01:29
itsnotabigtruckright, density is the enemy01:30
itsnotabigtruckit's why cell phone data service is always going to suck in manhattan01:30
njsfwell it sucks less because you have pretty dense Wifi coverage by the cell providers too01:30
ajalkaneHelsinki has a population of 0.5 million people. It's dense by Finland's standards, but I guess it's globally a laughing stock when talking about dense ;)01:31
Jarenah, data limits are so yesterday's stuff. TeliaSonera is already putting together a content based billing system ;)01:32
ajalkaneI guess they want to scare off the rest of their remaining customers?01:32
Jaredunno about that, but I'm sure others will use it in future too01:33
ajalkaneI guess by then mobile internet will be unusable for me.01:34
njsfuntil it is the only option...01:34
Jare...if there won't be any legislation against it01:34
njsfwired broadband expansion is basically stalled in the US01:35
ajalkaneIf I was dictator of Finland, I'd already have put some legislation about Elop in place.01:35
itsnotabigtrucknjsf: aren't AT&T and VZW both actively rolling out their lte networks?01:35
njsfFiOS and U-verse existing markets are well served all others are screwed01:35
itsnotabigtruckclear (wimax) is pretty much dead in the water these days01:35
njsfitsnotabigtruck: wired LTE ?! never heard of it01:36
itsnotabigtruckoops01:36
njsfand yes, VZW and ATT want the world01:36
itsnotabigtrucklol01:36
itsnotabigtrucki didn't see the wired part :p01:36
njsfwhere wireless internet has greater advertised speed01:36
njsfspecially since "net neutrality" does not apply there01:36
itsnotabigtruckyeah, it comes down to comcast and fios most of the time01:37
njsfand they can make up whatever filtering they want01:37
itsnotabigtruckand fios rollout has pretty much stopped01:37
njsfI could have 100 Mbps from my cable provider01:37
itsnotabigtruckand comcast really only upgraded their network where verizon put fios in01:37
itsnotabigtruckyou can already get 50 Mb/s from comcast, if you're in an area that has fios, and you're willing to pay through the nose01:38
njsfbut when I had 30Mbps I noticed I never used more than the "basic account " 15Mpbs anyway01:38
itsnotabigtruck(it's well past $100/mo)01:38
njsfso I save a lot a month there01:38
njsffor 100$ I could get 101Mbps01:38
njsfnow I have 15 for 30$01:38
njsfwhich you could say is a worse deal that 100 for 100$01:38
itsnotabigtruckthe thing is that a large portion of servers on the net don't have wide enough uplink themselves to fill very fast residential connections01:38
njsfbut why pay $70 for capacity I am not using...01:39
itsnotabigtruckthat and lots of bottlenecked routes01:39
itsnotabigtruckeven if they cap your connection at zillions of megs, you can rarely ever use more than 20 megs or so unless you're connecting to something a) nearby, b) on a fast pipe01:39
itsnotabigtrucki mean, that sort of thing is why CDNs are so huge now01:40
itsnotabigtruckhttp://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25305&stc=1&d=133073175301:45
itsnotabigtruckcool, it's a landscape keyboard layout that's like the n90001:45
ajalkanesleep time, cya later01:47
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DocScrutinizermeh, only thing that counts are MT / cell02:03
DocScrutinizerso in a "dense" area, get more smaller BTS02:03
DocScrutinizerI know urban areas where distance frome one BTS to next is <150m02:04
DocScrutinizerO know of skyscrapers where they got per-floor BTS02:05
DocScrutinizers/O/I/02:05
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: I know of skyscrapers where they got per-floor BTS02:05
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DocScrutinizeror rather, s/BTS/enodeB/02:06
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itsnotabigtruckDocScrutinizer: but then if you start sticking base stations just wherever, uplink becomes a problem02:13
DocScrutinizernot really02:13
itsnotabigtruckit's already bad enough at a normal cell site, as opposed to some mini-station that's put somewhere with less than ideal connection02:14
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DocScrutinizerVDSL everywhere, and microwave beams in the 50..80GHz band are usually easy to install and offer lots of bandwidth as well02:15
itsnotabigtruckhm02:17
DocScrutinizerthe future are femtocells anyway02:17
itsnotabigtruckanyway, i'm not so sure about the deployment specifics, but i do know that uplink saturation is one of the big problems slowing down 3g networks right now02:18
itsnotabigtruckit's a major reason why the telcos are so desperate to get people using less data02:18
DocScrutinizererr uplink from MT to EnodeB?02:18
itsnotabigtrucknot sure about the terminology, but uplink from the cell site to the internet02:18
DocScrutinizerthat's backbone02:19
DocScrutinizerdealt with that in my ost above02:19
DocScrutinizerpost02:19
itsnotabigtruckexcept that stuff usually *isn't* deployed02:19
DocScrutinizer??02:19
itsnotabigtruckhell, until recently afaik it was common to run a cell site off a few T1s02:20
DocScrutinizerI'd guess already >50% of BTS/EnodeB are connected to plain 220V mains and a microwave beam02:20
itsnotabigtruckhm02:20
DocScrutinizerthey already sell the calibration data of the beams to weather forecast, as they change with air humidity02:21
itsnotabigtruckguess i need to look into this stuff more, totally thought usually it was a wired connection02:21
itsnotabigtrucka wired connection that you can't just put wherever you want, and costs a ton02:22
itsnotabigtruckhmm02:22
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djszapibeford: ping02:24
Jaremicrowave beams grr.. at least in Finland they are using the money to fibre optic networks02:24
djszapiI have an N9 64 GB (black) for sale in Finland for 360 EUR. Brand new.02:25
djszapiif anybody is interested in this.02:25
itsnotabigtruckinteresting...apparently apple is imposing a code signing arrangement on OS X02:30
itsnotabigtruckit can still be opted out of, but it's on by default02:30
itsnotabigtrucksort of like harmattan's unsigned app toggle in the options, but that sortof thing is unheard of on the desktop02:31
pahey, apparently there+s one app to push SMS to imap02:33
pajust realized02:33
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DocScrutinizeritsnotabigtruck: I thought next redmond megavirus also comes with signature check for apps02:46
pai dont remember who was advicing me the backup utility for sms02:51
pabut it doesnt seem to me it does sms backup02:51
paat least i cannot find the sms02:51
itsnotabigtruckDocScrutinizer: i think that's through their app store only, but it's a step in the same direction02:52
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itsnotabigtruckand i think win8 tablet might enforce it02:52
itsnotabigtrucki'm writing off win8 tablet though, it'll be useless02:52
itsnotabigtrucklooking further into apple's system however, it looks like it only checks signatures on files downloaded through the browser02:52
itsnotabigtruckso it's more of an advisory thing than an enforced thing02:52
itsnotabigtruckbut it looks like both apple and microsoft want to head down that road02:53
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pado you know whether harmattan api allow an application to "hide" a contact?03:13
itsnotabigtruckno :p03:31
itsnotabigtruck(i don't know)03:32
djszapianybody willing to test my qt5 patch update on Mac ?03:36
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itsnotabigtruckhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=8237503:45
itsnotabigtruckwhat happens with the virtual keyboard on N95003:45
itsnotabigtruck(is it enabled at all, and if so, does it have different behavior from N9)03:46
djszapiofc it is enabled.03:46
itsnotabigtruckbecause it seems like it would make sense to arrange to shut off the virtual keyboard entirely if a bt keyboard is connected03:46
itsnotabigtruckas opposed to hacking each and every app to disable the vkbd, no thanks03:46
djszapisince you can "fold" your device, if you would not like to have this outfolded big size for no real reasons.03:47
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: right, but then perhaps it would have different behavior when you slide it out03:48
tehdelyit should really copy the Symbian behavior03:48
itsnotabigtrucke.g. having the 950 open suppresses the popup keyboard03:48
tehdelywhich is to do precisely that03:48
tehdelyif you slide out a physical keyboard, or attach one via bt03:48
tehdelythen there is no vkb03:48
tehdelyi am kinda surprised this is not the behavior03:48
itsnotabigtruckit looks like the problem with the terminal wasn't the virtual keyboard appearing in and of itself, it was input focus03:49
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: I almost never used it slided out03:49
itsnotabigtruckif you hide the terminal's keyboard you can't type into it, apparently03:49
djszapisince it makes no sense to me.03:49
itsnotabigtruck(hmm, can that be repro'd on 950?)03:49
djszapithe VKBD is just pretty awesome.03:49
itsnotabigtruckalso i should see about buying a compact bt keyboard, that sounds v. neat03:50
* djszapi dislikes having a bigger and heavier phone for no real fun when the VKBD is awesome (tm)03:51
itsnotabigtruckit's good for most things but it's horrible for the terminal03:52
pahey man03:52
itsnotabigtruckmostly because of all that punctuation03:52
pait looks like there+s syncevolution for harmattan03:52
itsnotabigtruckthe arrows/punctuation bar helps but using that gets really obnoxious really fast03:53
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djszapiitsnotabigtruck: you can re-do the layout anytime03:53
itsnotabigtrucki suppose so03:53
itsnotabigtruckthough that would globally change the layout, not just for meego-terminal03:54
itsnotabigtruck(i think?)03:54
tehdelywhat i ahte is03:54
tehdelyi am deeply in love with swype03:54
tehdelybut it is completely inappropriate for the terminal03:54
tehdelyi had no idea you could switch back to regular keyboard with a swipe03:54
tehdelythis is a life-saver03:54
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: why would you use different layout for different applications ?03:54
itsnotabigtrucki gave swype a try, couldn't get the hang of it03:54
djszapiwhy mess up your UX for no real fun ?03:55
itsnotabigtruckmaybe i didn't spend enough time learning it03:55
itsnotabigtruckbut i prefer exact entry03:55
djszapichoose the best layout you are familiar with, done.03:55
npmexpect sometimes the switch back to regular keyboard dies and you have to iconize the app and then re-focus03:55
tehdelyi can't use a phone without swype03:55
djszapiI do not understand the complain.03:55
npmin order to get it back...03:55
tehdelyit will keep me from ever switching to windows phone, unless they implement Swype03:55
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: because your suggested solution for punctuation and arrow keys being annoying in meego-terminal without a real keyboard was to relayout the virtual keyboard03:55
tehdelyprobably a good thing ;)03:55
npms/expect/except03:55
npmthat's a weird letter switch03:55
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: and03:56
djszapi?03:56
itsnotabigtruckwhich means putting - / ~ ' etc. up front03:56
djszapigo with the one you like03:56
djszapifigure out one you like globally.03:56
itsnotabigtruckcharacters that are seldom used in other applications but often used in the terminal03:56
djszapialso, meegoterminal is hardly a common business use case for an average user03:56
itsnotabigtruckthen you end up with a compromise that isn't that great for anything03:56
tehdelydjszapi: it's probably a pretty common use case for the sorts of people buying an N9, thouhg03:57
djszapiplus I doubt why it would be global only03:57
djszapisince SIP attributes can also be done per app03:57
djszapiso it should technologically possible03:57
djszapiso I do not seriously understand the complain.03:57
djszapisounds like useless whining03:57
djszapitehdely: not at all03:57
djszapiwhy would my mom use terminal ? She just does not.03:58
djszapishe does not need it.03:58
djszapinor my sister, and many people03:58
djszapiyou live in a world where you think /user/ phones are bought by hackers.03:58
tehdelyyour mom should buy a LUMIA03:58
djszapiwhich is obviously not true03:58
djszapimostly*03:58
tehdelythis is the N9 we're talking about03:58
tehdelythe successor to the N90003:58
tehdelywho bought N900s...03:58
djszapino03:58
itsnotabigtruckyeah, i was saying on the #n9 channel a few hours ago03:58
djszapiyou are quite wrong03:58
itsnotabigtruckthe N9 was marketed as being easy to use03:58
djszapinobody says that inside Nokia03:58
itsnotabigtruckbut in reality, N9 is not for noobs03:58
Tronicitsnotabigtruck: I think you are wrong.03:59
itsnotabigtruckit's like the f1 car of phones03:59
paitsnotabigtruck, just because many needed features are not there by default or are hard to enable03:59
itsnotabigtruckyou don't drive your kids to school in a race car03:59
TronicN9 is for noobs. It just happens to be quite good for hackers as well.03:59
pafor what+s there , its very easy to use03:59
djszapiTronic: +104:00
itsnotabigtruckit takes a specific set of skills to properly pilot the N9, or you'll stall it or crash04:01
paitsnotabigtruck, what couldnt you do, being a noob?04:01
djszapimy mom has no skills04:01
Tronicitsnotabigtruck: N9 is easier to use than Android. Yet, the general public seems to be able to handle Android, so...04:01
djszapinor my sister04:01
itsnotabigtruckpa: well, for one, this firmware update is causing problems left and right and rectifying it generally requires not being a noob04:02
Tronicitsnotabigtruck: You mean, if the user had enabled custom repositories and installed software from there?04:02
pa:)04:02
itsnotabigtruckTronic: having custom software installed wasn't the problem, it's that the rzr and platform sdk repos include packages with higher versions than the actual firmware packages04:03
djszapiwhat are you talking about ? :D04:03
paand besides, nokia could save herself a bunch of money and time, by avoiding all these different area roms04:03
djszapiaverage users like my family members never use our Community Repository I try to maintain.04:03
djszapiplatform SDK repository -> even more useless to discuss04:04
djszapiit is not used by average user by any means.04:04
itsnotabigtruckpa: that's the thing...most of these firmware problems are a direct result of nokia's own bizarre releasing process04:04
itsnotabigtruckand anti-downgrade restrictions04:04
djszapibizarre ?04:04
djszapianti-downgrade is done for good04:04
djszapithat is one of the most important thing for doing good04:05
itsnotabigtruckbut the SSU failures and messageserver explosions post-update aren't really related to that either04:05
padjszapi, why so?04:05
itsnotabigtruckanti-downgrade does literally nothing in the benefit of the user04:05
djszapianyway, no matter how many people speak the opposite against itsnotabigtruck :P04:05
djszapihe will continue :)04:05
djszapipa: because many softwares would explode04:05
paif you downgrade, it+s your problem04:05
djszapiprobably the entire system04:05
pabut i dont see why preventing it04:05
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: downgrading the os = reflashing the rootfs = all "softwares" will be gone04:06
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: not at all04:06
paif you have troubles, you should just be allowed to reflash with the latest version04:06
itsnotabigtruckand moreover, the antidowngrade restriction has the potential to irrevocably screw up phones04:06
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: that is a very false understanding.04:06
itsnotabigtrucksw cert upgrades are pretty much the one thing that isn't easily reversed04:06
djszapiI have updated many times the kernel only.04:06
paif nokia produce a phone that is easy to brick, nokia sucks. full stop.04:06
itsnotabigtruckfor example, once PR1.3 comes out, suppose the user upgrades to some high-numbered variant04:07
djszapito get a security fix, or just a new feature in.04:07
itsnotabigtruckand it turns out it's all screwed up and it was a mistake04:07
itsnotabigtruckand they need to get back to a low-numbered variant04:07
itsnotabigtruckrrrrnt, downgrade disallowed04:07
itsnotabigtruckand if PR1.3 ends up being the final firmware release, waiting a new version out can't possibly work04:08
djszapipa I am not interested in your swearing really04:08
djszapiif you have technical arguments, I might listen04:08
djszapimaking a fully awesome product for everyone was not obviously the purpose04:08
itsnotabigtruckoh, also04:08
itsnotabigtruckyou just mentioned updating the kernel only04:08
djszapiand the project was beheaded one year ago04:08
djszapiactually even more04:08
djszapiso who cared anymore ?04:08
itsnotabigtruckupdating the kernel only will put the system into tainted mode anyway04:08
djszapiwhich world were you living in ?04:08
itsnotabigtruckso that's obviously not a supported case in any sense04:08
djszapimaybe in Alice's ?04:09
itsnotabigtruckdowngrading the entire system en bloc is an entirely valid use case04:09
padjszapi, the thing is you dont have any. saying "downgrading breaks everything" is not a reason for blocking it. if you have problems with that, just reflash04:09
pawhat's the problem?04:09
djszapi"updating the kernel only will put the system into tainted mode anyway" -> huh ?04:09
djszapiman, seriously...what do you think core developers did every single day ?04:09
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: use phones with r&d certificates loaded, that's what :p04:09
itsnotabigtruckin order to update the kernel and stay in secure mode, you need to load a new sw certificate04:10
djszapiit has zero relevance to R&D04:10
TronicAnti-downgrade is indeed braindead.04:10
TronicProbably a futile effort at enforcing platsec.04:10
itsnotabigtrucka new sw certificate will contain a new secondary/xloader/vdata/vhash04:10
djszapiTronic: it has nothing to do with platsec04:10
itsnotabigtruckthat means that everything has to be upgraded along with that new kernel04:10
itsnotabigtruckor the phone will a) crash, b) malf, c) boot into open mode04:11
itsnotabigtruckd) a combination04:11
TronicIf downgrading is done via flashing, I see absolutely no problem with the user being able to do that.04:11
djszapiTronic: and ofc, not braindead if you would explode the users' system for fun04:11
djszapipa: the fact that average users do not wanna reflash04:11
Tronicdjszapi: If an older version is broken but the new firmware isn't, the anti-downgrade restriction can prevent users from switching back to a version they can tinker with.04:11
djszapiif they make a stupid mistake for whatever reasons.04:11
padjszapi, the average user do not downgrade04:12
djszapipa as we discussed many times it *is* a user phone.04:12
Tronicdjszapi: Please, technical facts on "exploding users' system".04:12
itsnotabigtruckif someone downgrades the phone, it's because they want to downgrade it04:12
itsnotabigtruckit's pretty much impossible to do it by mistake04:12
djszapiTronic: again, this is a *user* phone04:12
itsnotabigtruckand if it's my phone, i want to have the final word on what runs on it04:12
Tronicdjszapi: I said *technical*.04:12
djszapimy mom is not supposed to flash a broken system for "tinkering".04:13
pamoreover, if you downgrade and you have troubles, you probably know how to restore it as well.. same procedure, new rom.04:13
Tronicdjszapi: Exactly how is PR1.1 OFC'ed phone "exploded", compared to how the device was when it was originally received factory-flashed PR1.1?04:13
djszapiTronic: please do not make me talk about NDA04:13
djszapifirst, I am not allowed04:13
djszapisecond, read the topic, thanks.04:13
Tronicdjszapi: You should keep away arguments that you can only back by claiming that it is under NDA.04:14
itsnotabigtruckto be fair, it's possible that a new firmware could write something backwards-incompatible things to the calibration data area04:14
itsnotabigtruckin fact, there's such a change from PR1.1 to PR1.204:14
djszapiTronic: nah ... you should trust the people doing the system04:14
djszapiand not being stubborn04:14
itsnotabigtruckhowever i don't think that would interfere with a downgrade04:15
djszapithat is probably one reason why many nokians are fed up with this channel, and not coming here.04:15
djszapiwho likes that when outsiders would like to state the facts what the "real" employees did ?04:15
pait would be just much more simple and cheap for everybody (including nokia) to just make 1 rom, 1 flasher, make it official, and make it simple to use and impossible to brick. it would be cheap for them, not messing up with 30 different version. it would be easy for the user.04:15
djszapiit is quite rude.04:15
djszapiand saying repeatedly "Nokia sucks" without understanding does not help not being rude either.04:16
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: well, you're right that nokia/etc. has definitely engaged the community a lot more than most other companies do, and i can understand lots of people getting fed up with the constant demands of people, not necessarily realistic04:16
itsnotabigtruckhowever, in this case, we're talking about a specific restriction that was put in place, that interferes with actual users, that's justified with fairly specious reasoning04:16
DocScrutinizerOMG it's again a moment where I want to /mode +q somebody that already is on my ignore list04:17
itsnotabigtruckand it would have taken *less* work on nokia's part to not implement the downgrade restriction04:17
DocScrutinizereven the answers to those invisible comments make my ass bleed04:17
djszapisure, you know this better, too04:17
djszapilike aegis matters.04:17
itsnotabigtruck>_>04:17
* djszapi is fed up with this "Nokia sucks without I would like, at least, to understand why the ways are done, as they are"04:18
Tronicpa: If not counting platsec, I actually don't see why all the storage on the phone (except for the flasher code) wouldn't be read/write over USB. That would certainly simplify a lot of things, including full phone backups.04:18
djszapigood luck with swearing guys, I should have listened to the recommendation of some Nokians previously04:18
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itsnotabigtruck...04:18
TronicRight...04:18
itsnotabigtruckdid anybody even say "nokia sucks" here?04:18
psycho_oreosnokia sucks04:18
itsnotabigtruck:p04:18
psycho_oreosperiod04:18
itsnotabigtruckmy theory is that they put in the downgrade blocking because that's the way they've always done it on all their phones04:19
pai didnt want to be rude at dj, but the answer to "thats why nokians dont come here" could easily be "thats why nokia is bankrupting"..04:19
itsnotabigtruckit's the norm and no one questions it, or maybe it's something the telcos want too04:19
paim sure there are reasons for their area customization04:19
psycho_oreosdowngrading was allowed on N900 on the contrary04:19
itsnotabigtruckpsycho_oreos: but it wasn't on all of the symbian phones04:20
pabut i see no reason why not making it simple to circumvent04:20
itsnotabigtruckright, they could have added another flag to flasher (--downgrade-it-dammit or whatnot :p) that would force it to obey your ill-advised request to downgrade04:20
itsnotabigtruckand that's that04:21
psycho_oreositsnotabigtruck, heh I never downgraded on my symbian phone when I had it working. symbian was crap and even updating it was still crap lol04:21
itsnotabigtruckpsycho_oreos: heh04:21
DocScrutinizerwho said "Noians don't come here"? That's plain bullshit, sorry04:21
itsnotabigtruckit seems like this whole restriction is based on "everything that is not allowed is disallowed" kind of thinking04:22
payeah04:22
DocScrutinizerof course04:22
itsnotabigtruckthere's the authorized mode of flashing, and there's everything else04:22
DocScrutinizereven worse04:22
DocScrutinizer*I* don't see a usecase for it04:23
DocScrutinizerso let's call all those idiots that ask for it04:23
DocScrutinizerand forbid it04:23
DocScrutinizerno matter what it costs us04:23
pamaybe they are still pissed since the netmonitor hack back in the years :)04:24
DocScrutinizerif Nokia got pissed about anything, then tha's been OC04:24
DocScrutinizerand right so04:25
DocScrutinizerOCer's are mostly idiots04:25
pathey do the same on WM and android04:25
DocScrutinizerthat happily ask for a waranty replacement or start whining about "crappy segfaulting system" after they fried their SoC04:25
paon the other side, nokia hardware has never been exactly bleeding edge04:26
psycho_oreoslol04:26
* psycho_oreos relates some of these excessive overclockers to those who put huge NOS on their mum's shopping cart and wondered why the cart idles like pig04:27
tehdelysounds like Gentoo users! ;)04:28
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* psycho_oreos is now reminded of that old gentoo nickname04:29
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* itsnotabigtruck breathes a sigh of relief05:47
itsnotabigtruckthe homework was postponed05:47
itsnotabigtruckhttp://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/qf04t/til_thomas_jefferson_reassembled_the_new/c3x53r305:54
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merlin1991itsnotabigtruck: what kind of homewark was it?06:46
merlin1991*homework*06:46
itsnotabigtruckmerlin1991: networking06:48
itsnotabigtruck not terribly difficult, but definitely on the tedious side of things :(06:48
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Venemohey :)10:21
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Venemo~seen djszapi13:14
infobotdjszapi <~lpapp@kde/developer/lpapp> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 8h 56m 18s ago, saying: 'good luck with swearing guys, I should have listened to the recommendation of some Nokians previously'.13:14
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veliHello, any ideas how to go around this: https://bugreports.qt-project.org/browse/QTBUG-21908?page=com.atlassian.jira.plugin.system.issuetabpanels:changehistory-tabpanel13:34
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SpeedEvilFind does not support -printf13:41
SpeedEvilThat is all.13:41
SpeedEvilInstall gnu find?13:41
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veliSpeedEvil: Thanks. I fixed it in the dh_installdeb ... I'm just writing a tutorial so I was hoping to find a way to do something in the .pro .. But maybe it's better to fix the issue, not try to go around it.13:45
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SpeedEvilIf you can't use side-effects in the script to not use printf - then it's pretty fundamental breakage.13:50
SpeedEvilthe platform not supporting -printf13:50
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rZrhttp://rzr.online.fr/q/redak# redak-0.2.0-0 : TexT EditOr : Qt QmL, MeeGo, HarmattaN, n950, n9, MaemO, OpenSource, GpL-3, FlosS @ #n950club14:27
deimos_I am trying to get desktop size or orientation from a custom item. No problems in qml, but I need to know it within the custom component. QApplication::desktop()->width() and also XGetWindowAttributes() always return 854x480 even if in portrait. Someone can help me please ?14:43
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bluesleeitsnotabigtruck: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1173599&postcount=214:49
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pawhat's the built in media player called, again?15:00
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deimos_pa: video-suite ?15:08
paah right, thanks15:09
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itsnotabigtruckargh, why is blueslee only on for a few mins at a time16:35
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itsnotabigtruckanyone know if harmattan has some system for registering browsers (so they could be selected as default)?16:49
itsnotabigtruckit seems like, with a bunch of 3rd party browsers now, there needs to be a) a system default browser setting (i think that's already there)16:49
itsnotabigtruckb) a menu option to change that setting, and c) all browsers adding choices to that setting16:50
itsnotabigtruckopera, firefox, grob, etc.16:50
itsnotabigtrucki'm not sure why that sort of thing has always been common on PCs and unusual on phones, even when there's many different popular browsers16:50
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npmitsnotabigtruck: go to settings->applications->web->default browser and set a difft browser17:14
npmunfortunately, firefox gets into big trouble when clicking on twitter links so i went back to stock browser as the  'xdg-settings set default-web-brower'17:16
itsnotabigtrucknpm: oh, it's already there? /me checks17:23
itsnotabigtrucklast i looked the web settings were pretty spartan17:23
itsnotabigtruckdoes it appear after installing a third party browser? atm it's just search engine / block popups / remember passwords17:24
ZogG_laptopis there beta4 avilable ?17:29
ZogG_laptopthe source and packages?17:29
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/17:30
itsnotabigtrucknegative17:30
ZogG_laptopdamn17:30
ZogG_laptopwould it be avaliable at any point?17:30
itsnotabigtruckthere's a platform sdk update incoming but i'm not sure if it's a real update, or just adding some extra packages17:30
itsnotabigtrucklike they did with sdl17:30
ZogG_laptopi need new signon17:31
itsnotabigtruckhttps://harmattan-bugs.nokia.com/show_bug.cgi?id=106217:31
itsnotabigtruck"Yes, it is coming in the next SDK update. Very soon, hopefully."17:31
_MeeGoBot_Bug 1062 nor, ---, ---, marcell.lengyel, ASSI, libfcam-dev (camera control API) not available in Platform SDK17:31
itsnotabigtruckbut what you're looking for is a real sdk update, and it doesn't seem like there's been action on bug #71517:31
_MeeGoBot_Bug https://harmattan-bugs.nokia.com/show_bug.cgi?id=715 maj, ---, ---, ext-lavanya.alamuri, NEW, No platform SDK releases since PR1.1 to match on-device packages17:31
npmitsnotabigtruck: setting the default web browser from settings->applications->web is a new pr 1.2 feature17:33
itsnotabigtruckespecially since i'm getting the impression that the official position on SDK updates is that ovi stor = pr1.0 = no need for externals to have access to anything newer17:33
itsnotabigtruckhopefully things will start to change, maybe they will17:34
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: yeah i saw your bug, filled similuar17:34
itsnotabigtruckmaybe they already are17:34
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: got response - resolved =\17:34
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itsnotabigtrucknpm: ah ok. still haven't installed opera/firefox so i guess it hides the option if there's no alternatives present17:34
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: https://harmattan-bugs.nokia.com/show_bug.cgi?id=105317:35
_MeeGoBot_Bug 1053 nor, ---, ---, ext-tulasi.t.punaganti, REOP, Only pr1.0 components leading impossible to develop using new libs from pr1.217:35
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: i just feel bad that i need to writte oauth plugin for several packages from scratch while there is plugin already in the phone17:35
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: yeah, the people doing front-line support on the bug tracker seem to be a little bit happy with the wontfix/invalid button17:36
itsnotabigtrucki mean, there's probably a lot of external bug tracker entries that deserve it, but then everything just kinda gets lumped together17:36
itsnotabigtruckyou *might* have a bit more luck if you filed a bug specifically asking for signon-oauth2's headers to be included (or whateveris required)17:36
itsnotabigtruckbtw are you sure the relevant code isn't open source?17:37
itsnotabigtruckhttps://gitorious.org/accounts-sso/signon-oauth217:37
itsnotabigtruckand signon's source package is in sdk_sources_pr1.1.iso17:37
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: at least it's the answer while the response "assigned internally thanks" means "went to endless pit of death"17:37
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: heh17:37
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: yeah i added those manually, it didn't help as Signon need to be updated to use it17:38
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: anyway, see if you can scrounge together the headers you need, a surprising amount of this stuff is scattered in various places17:38
itsnotabigtruckgrab sdk_source_pr1.1.iso17:38
itsnotabigtruckbuild the signon source package that comes with it in your scratchbox17:38
itsnotabigtruckinstall the updated packages17:38
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: i added all plugin headers but need singon17:39
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: i just told you where to get signon17:39
ZogG_laptopliboauth2 was added at pr1.2 so i think changes too17:40
itsnotabigtruckand you shouldn't just add the headers, you should take the entire signon code and build it into -dev packages17:40
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: as well i use qtcreator17:40
itsnotabigtruckwhich is surprisingly easy to do17:40
itsnotabigtruckalso, be very careful to specify specific versions on your dependencies when you're using new pr1.1/1.2 stuff17:40
itsnotabigtruckthat makes sure your package can't be installed with old libs from an old release17:41
ZogG_laptopthat's would come after17:41
itsnotabigtruckalso, install scratchbox17:42
itsnotabigtruckyou really need it if you're doing anything unusual or advanced17:42
ZogG_laptopi'm too nobie for that17:42
itsnotabigtruckonce you have your -dev packages, you can probably install them into MADDE for qt creator use17:42
ZogG_laptophad it and deleted =)17:42
itsnotabigtruckbut you need scratchbox to actually build them17:42
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: thats why i need beta4 to get packages17:43
ZogG_laptop ./mad-admin xdpkg -i /tmp/libsignon-qt-dev_8.38-7+0m6_armel.deb17:43
ZogG_laptop'usr/include/signon-qt/SignOn/libsignoncommon.h' already in sysroot. Can not install.17:43
ZogG_laptopdoes madde support versions btw?17:44
itsnotabigtruckhttps://gitorious.org/accounts-sso/signon/trees/pr1.217:46
itsnotabigtruckhttps://gitorious.org/accounts-sso/signon-oauth2/trees/pr1.217:46
itsnotabigtruckgrab those17:46
itsnotabigtrucki have no idea w/r/t madde, apparently not i guess17:47
itsnotabigtruckcan you tell madde to uninstall something?17:47
itsnotabigtruckif so then uninstall/reinstall i guess17:47
itsnotabigtruck^^ are the pr1.2 version branches you need to build17:47
itsnotabigtruckand anything else here: https://gitorious.org/accounts-sso/ that you might find yourself needing17:47
ZogG_laptopyeah but i wouldn't be able to build17:48
itsnotabigtrucksure you can, scratchbox scratchbox scratchbox :D17:48
ZogG_laptopme noobie noobie noobie =)17:48
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e-yeshi17:53
e-yeswhat's revision of rapu on n9? is it the same like n900 have?17:54
jonnithat question does not belong to this channel, sorry, cannot answer on details that most likely are under NDA.17:58
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e-yesNDA? is it a joke? specs for rapu was opened long time ago (wirelessmodemapi)18:15
itsnotabigtruckspeaking of wirelessmodemapi.com...what happened to that site18:20
itsnotabigtruckit went down a few weeks ago18:20
itsnotabigtruckthought it was just a temporary outage but i just checked and it's still down18:21
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e-yesitsnotabigtruck, that's renessance territory since 2010. may be they just want to discontinue support of complicated binary protocol?18:26
itsnotabigtrucke-yes: the N9 schematic just says RAPUYAMA18:27
itsnotabigtrucki can't find much from googling, just changelogs from all those dodgy 3rd party flashing hardware/software outfits18:27
itsnotabigtruckthe latest nokias apparently use RAPUYAMA 2.1, so that might be a good guess18:28
e-yesitsnotabigtruck, yeah, I know. But there are at least two versions(types in terms of ofono) of rapu. afaik n900 uses first version (w/ bsi)18:31
e-yesnot sure about n9. btw,   bsi == sleep_ind ?18:31
npminteresting how spotify refuses to run as soon as you have dlna sharing enabled on PR 1.2 :-)18:32
npmi was all like hey, 5 hrs of http://open.spotify.com/user/1211624606/playlist/0SDfjSg7WBhdoHYKyUdl2s ... DLNA... win!18:34
jonniI have dlns sharing on and spotify runs just fine?18:35
jonnidlna even18:35
npmoh not dlna i mean media sharing18:35
npmas in USB plugged into router18:36
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npmwhich otherwise works :-)18:36
jonniyou mean mass storage mode?18:36
npmyeah18:36
npmsorry18:36
jonniwell because it mounts the drive to your pc, and it cannot connect to it internally, has been always a feature in pr1.0, 1.1 and 1.218:37
npmah interesting. sounds like an app needs to be written to turn it on and off via web :-)18:38
* npm adds to feature list18:38
* npm of MediaTator18:38
jonninpm: nothing interesting in there it just tries to write cache files to drive which is not avail.18:38
itsnotabigtrucknpm: btw, get ad-hac! http://n9-apps.com/ad-hac18:39
npminteresting. alas, i try to not use wireless network at all.... got a reverse-tethering solution?? http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=575318:41
npmit's one of the reasons i leave my SIM in the lumia... so that it stays many feet away from me while radiating cancer18:43
itsnotabigtrucknpm: erm, right18:43
npmand since i "handle" my developer device alot, i prefer that radiation to be elsewhere18:43
itsnotabigtruckwell anyway, you can control anything network related from develsh18:44
itsnotabigtruckmake sure to always do devel-su -s /bin/develsh18:44
npmi can't add do '/sbin/route'18:44
itsnotabigtruckeven better, change root's default shell to develsh18:44
npmotherwise i'd be there already18:44
itsnotabigtruckare you sure you develsh'd?18:44
itsnotabigtruckbeing root isn't enough18:44
npmyeah see the forum thead18:44
npmthread18:45
itsnotabigtruckand using devel-su will drop all caps18:45
npmhm18:45
itsnotabigtruckyeah, i looked at the thread, and i see nothing about develsh18:45
npmso  how should i develsh18:45
itsnotabigtruckwhich is why i'm suspicious18:45
itsnotabigtruckdevel-su -s /bin/develsh18:45
npmoh ok intersting18:45
itsnotabigtruckthat opens a root shell with all developer capablities18:45
npmthanks for de-rectifying my head :-)18:45
itsnotabigtruck:p18:45
itsnotabigtruckremember that on normal linux, su'ing will add *all* linux capabilities18:46
itsnotabigtruckwith aegis, su'ing just changes UID18:46
itsnotabigtruckand devel-su is an aegis-aware su that drops all capabilities you had before su'ing18:46
virtualdisn't that how it should be with any mandatory access control system in place?18:46
itsnotabigtruckso you have to get those capabilities back afterward18:46
itsnotabigtruckvirtuald: right, i'm not faulting aegis for that18:47
virtuald8]18:47
npmi've been sitting behind qtcreator for several months, had temporary amnesia :-)18:47
itsnotabigtruckthere's plenty of things to fault aegis for but ^ is just mac in action18:47
virtualdis the mac policy documented somewhere?18:48
qronicitsnotabigtruck, if I'll change user's shell from /bin/sh to develsh is it gonna work how it supposed to?18:52
jonninpm: you should run route add default gw as user and not as root, ;) or you get permission denied18:54
npmdevelsh worked. n950 ~ # /sbin/route add default gw 192.168.2.1418:55
itsnotabigtruckqronic: think it will, though i don't know if there's much benefit to that18:57
itsnotabigtruckalso, never uninstall develsh once you've done this, heh18:58
qronicdeveloper user can change it back :)18:58
itsnotabigtruckvirtuald: aegis doesn't really use a 'policy' per se18:58
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npmany reason why i shouldn't edit /etc/resolv.conf ??? (not in /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist  (18:59
virtualdwhat does it use then?18:59
itsnotabigtrucknpm: because the default works fine, it runs dnsmasq locally to smoothly handle dns server changes18:59
itsnotabigtruckvirtuald: accli -I will display which permissions you have at the moment18:59
qronicI have to say that PR1.2 on my N9 (especially new app closing mechanism) makes my N9 just perfect, love this phone18:59
itsnotabigtruckeach .deb package comes with an "aegis manifest" that asserts privileges for the binaries/scripts it includes19:00
virtualdo.O19:00
virtualdwhat does my IMEI have to do with permissions?19:00
itsnotabigtruckinstalling the .deb merges that info into the system policy19:00
itsnotabigtruckso there is a policy, but it's based on what packages you have and it changes all the time19:00
itsnotabigtruckhowever, you can't just request any privilege on a normal installation, because only nokia-signed packages are allowed to use the good ones :p19:01
paone thing that is not fully clear to me:say i write my little software, i package it, i try to install without doing anything strange. Do i get stopped by aegis?19:01
itsnotabigtruckso a number of privileges, the installer will refuse to add for your app19:01
npmthe only thing wrong with my N9 is that it's missing 48Gb of memory :-)19:01
npmbut i'm not complaining :-)19:02
itsnotabigtruckpa: no, your program just gets run with the privileges of the program it was launched from19:02
npmgiven the low low cost :-)19:02
paoh i see. so there's no way to create something that runs suid root or something?19:02
itsnotabigtruckvirtuald: it's possible to make a package restricted to a particular IMEI19:02
itsnotabigtruckthat's probably why it lists it with the capabilities19:02
itsnotabigtruckit's also possible to restrict by mode19:02
itsnotabigtruckpa: sure there is, in fact aegis makes it really easy to make something suid root19:03
itsnotabigtruckWAY too easy19:03
itsnotabigtruckjust put <capability name="UID::root" /> in your aegis manifest19:03
pabut then what is that we cannot do but nokia can?19:03
virtualdi could probably fake my imei if i wanted to19:03
itsnotabigtruckpa: mount things, manipulate the device lock screen, replace system packages with customized versions, setuid/setgid, modify any file anywhere (dac_override)19:04
paah, root cant mount stuff?19:04
itsnotabigtruckand a lotof other things19:04
npmso how does gtalk manage to reboot your phone during update, and do the scary looking "recovering upgrade" thing after reboot19:04
itsnotabigtruckwith the default aegis configuration, you aren't ever allowed to have full root access19:05
itsnotabigtruckonly half-root access through develsh19:05
npmit's gotta be the most antisocial upgrade on the planet....  no warning... just bloop reboot19:05
itsnotabigtruckbasically, aegis keeps you from customizing the system19:05
itsnotabigtruckit allows you to do lots of 'normal' and even not-so-normal things in an app19:06
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itsnotabigtruckbut it doesn't let you seize the system and customizing the everloving **** out of it :p19:06
itsnotabigtruck*s/customizing/customize/19:06
npmand i guess i should have takjen picures of the "recovering upgrade don't turn off your phone"19:06
itsnotabigtrucknpm: you're talking about the video chat enabler, right?19:06
npmyeah19:06
npmgtalk19:07
itsnotabigtrucki think it just has a postinst script with "reboot" in it19:07
npmworks great, otherwise19:07
itsnotabigtruckit's not actually gtalk specific and it's not an update to anything gtalk related19:07
pano customization =  replacing system packages you mean?19:07
itsnotabigtruckit's a package that does nothing but run a program that edits some config files to turn on the vidcalling capability that was already in pr1.219:07
itsnotabigtruckpa: and other things, yeah19:08
npmwell it rocks, but i wish it came preinstalled so i didn't have to see the sausagemaking19:08
itsnotabigtruckactually it is possible to replace some system packages19:08
itsnotabigtruckit's also possible to hose your phone doing that :p19:08
itsnotabigtruckand for many packages, you can't get back all the privileges that the old package had19:09
paah i see19:09
paso if you boot open mode, you can do what you want, right?19:09
itsnotabigtruckif you boot open mode you can install packages that let you do what you want, yeah19:10
itsnotabigtruckit doesn't switch off aegis, it just adds a side door you can use to take control19:10
itsnotabigtruckthat means you still have to understand aegis, there's no getting around that19:10
pathen you can boot back "non-open" and use your cool hacks?19:10
itsnotabigtruckno, you can't19:10
npmwow so you could potentially run stock apps without pulseaudio for example (most music-making apps would benefit from talking straight to bluetooth or dac via alsa)19:10
itsnotabigtruckstarting with PR1.2, once you boot open, you can't boot non-open without wiping everything19:11
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itsnotabigtruckbut for all releases, installing a package (and therefore obtaining privileges) in open mode19:11
itsnotabigtruckwill cause it to be unbootable in closed mode19:11
pabut besides the boot warning, is there anything else when you boot open?19:11
itsnotabigtruckas in downsides? just the warning19:11
paah ok19:12
itsnotabigtruckjust make sure you expunge EVERYTHING when going into open mode19:12
paexpunge?19:12
itsnotabigtruckyou should place your phone into open mode immediately after a comprehensive flash19:12
itsnotabigtruckas in, wipe19:12
pasay i want to reflash with 1.2 now19:12
pa(i still have 1.1)19:12
pacan i keep my phone open, without any other hassle than the boot warning?19:12
itsnotabigtrucki think you might want to wait a bit before going open mode19:13
itsnotabigtruckbut if you want to do it19:13
itsnotabigtruckyeah19:13
itsnotabigtrucka) flash main + emmc from pr1.219:13
itsnotabigtruckb) reboot, then *immediately* reconnect to the bootloader19:13
itsnotabigtrucki.e. flasher -R, then flasher -i19:13
itsnotabigtruckc) boot (not flash) the rescue kernel off this page http://wiki.meego.com/N950/Fixing_MALF_state19:14
itsnotabigtruckthe disclaimer should immediately appear19:14
itsnotabigtruckd) wait a little while, then unplug the usb and it'll reboot again19:14
itsnotabigtruckso what that does is put a completely clean factory-new pr1.2 install on there, then taint it by booting the unauthorized kernel19:15
itsnotabigtruckthat way there's nothing left over from closed mode that will cause aegis problems19:15
pai see.. thanks for the guide :) i mean i probably dont need open mode after all...19:16
paat least not at the moment19:16
paeven it would be nice to mount smbfs19:16
* npm adds 'gnote' 'itsnotabigtruck on Harmattan OpenMode' ---> thanks!19:19
itsnotabigtruckheh19:19
itsnotabigtruckalso it might be possible to skip that reboot/reconnect step in between19:20
itsnotabigtrucki'm not 100% sure about those steps, they should work but i don't think anyone's tested them exactly yet19:21
npmhey itsnotabigtruck here's more apps to write :-) http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking#Using_USB_networking_for_Maemo_applications19:21
itsnotabigtruckthe thing is that it depends on whether the new bootloader is used to boot the rescue kernel19:21
itsnotabigtruckif you do that right after flashing19:21
npmre: "Install libicd-network-dummy from Fremantle Nokia-binaries repository or better libicd-network-null from extras-devel, and when USB networking is up pickup "Dummy network" from the connection manager."19:22
npm^^ for n900 not n919:22
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jonniitsnotabigtruck: well there is atleast one downsides to be in open mode.19:28
itsnotabigtruckjonni: that being? besides the disclaimer19:29
jonniitsnotabigtruck: in open mode cal-area is readonly, and in closed mode its rw.19:29
itsnotabigtruckah, interesting19:29
befordhi19:30
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djszapiVenemo: now, I am here.20:05
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e-yesitsnotabigtruck, n9 has the same cellmo like n950. and very likely n900 too (but connected in a little different way)20:18
e-yesFYI: http://lists.ofono.org/pipermail/ofono/2011-December/012111.html20:18
itsnotabigtrucke-yes: yeah, it looks like all nokia ti-based devices use RAPUYAMA20:18
itsnotabigtruckRAPIDO is freescale20:19
itsnotabigtruckbtw how functional is ofono these days20:19
itsnotabigtruckwould it be possible to eliminate CSD and telepathy-ring (CSD version) on the n9, and install ofono and telepathy-ring (ofono version), and have it work?20:20
e-yeswithout modifying dbus clients - no20:20
Venemodjszapi, hey, it turned out that my stupidity was the main cause of the bug20:21
e-yesbut basic functionality works: calls, messaging, ussd, data20:21
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Venemodjszapi, now I'm sucking with QtDBus :(20:21
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djszapiVenemo: QtDbus ?20:30
djszapiyou mean with the simple Dbus api ?20:30
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djszapiQtDbus is just a very lightweight wrapper.20:30
djszapithin*20:35
djszapibeford: pingy20:38
befordhey djszapi20:39
djszapibeford: Could you please test an updated version of the qt5 patch, please ?20:39
djszapion Mac, that is.20:39
befordok20:39
befordbrb let me turn it on20:40
djszapimany thanks in advance20:40
djszapibeford: http://paste.xinu.at/AlV/20:41
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bef0rddjszapi20:42
djszapibef0rd: http://paste.xinu.at/AlV/20:42
bef0rddo I need to  update it or something?20:42
bef0rdi just did git reset20:42
djszapiI am not sure how it can be done apart from git reset --hard HEAD && git am20:43
djszapiI should probaly ask on #git20:43
bef0rdits ok I have just applied20:43
djszapimake sure git reset --hard HEAD~1 does not delete the build directory contents.20:43
djszapiotherwise it is a full qt5 rebuild for the qtbase...20:43
djszapialso, make sure you execute the "make" command only inside the qtbase folder20:44
bef0rdok20:44
djszapino need to reconfigure if you still have the existing clone20:44
djszapimake should re-run the qmake functionality.20:45
bef0rdyea its the same build, it seems to be going ok for now20:45
djszapibut the build files are even intact actually, so "make" should be enough after applying.20:45
djszapibef0rd: tests/auto/corelib/kernel/qtimer/tst_qtimer is the binary on Linux to run after the build20:47
djszapito get the unit test run.20:47
djszapieverything should pass20:48
Venemodjszapi, yeah. but I found what I was missing :)20:50
Venemodjszapi, the notifications now have icons and the app now appears when you click on them! :)20:50
djszapi:)20:51
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Venemo_N950this stuff is awesome! :)20:55
TronicWhat stuff?20:55
Venemo_N950my irc client :)20:55
Tronicmmkay.20:55
leinirproof! :O20:55
itsnotabigtruckyou know what would be cool? a USB security token (think like etoken) with a microusb interface20:55
leinir(aka, pics or it didn't happen ;) )20:55
itsnotabigtruckthat could be used with usb host mode20:56
itsnotabigtruckfor storing private keys securely off your N9 for ssh, email decryption, etc.20:56
TronicBtw, do any of those tokens have their own display and buttons for choosing which actions to approve?20:57
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itsnotabigtruckTronic: well, obviously there's lots of different kinds of tokens - the sort of thing i'm talking about doesn't have any screens or buttons20:57
itsnotabigtruckit's a sealed device that holds private keys and signs/decrypts with them, after logging into it with a password20:58
TronicI have been thinking the device itself needs to have a display & button because otherwise the (untrusted) host could abuse the device once authenticated. Also, if the password is entered on the host, that can be leaked as well.20:59
itsnotabigtruckhttp://www.amazon.com/Micro-USB-Male-Female-Adapter/dp/B0027YYMU6 i suppose something like that would work, though i bet it's not thin enough20:59
Venemoleinir, get it from http://venemo.fedorapeople.org/harmattan/ or wget http://j.mp/AnIUbk on your N9(50)20:59
leinirVenemo: that's a package, not a picture ;)21:00
Venemoleinir, indeed.21:00
TronicBut if the device had the keys on it, a display for showing what is being authenticated and a keyboard for entering pin, it would actually be secure.21:00
djszapiVenemo: changelog ?21:01
TronicE.g. the display could show "PAYMENT 500 € TO SHOPNAME" and once approved by entering the pin, the device could sign that message with its private key.21:01
* djszapi is trying out either way21:02
itsnotabigtruckTronic: yeah, there's been various attempts at that, it's usually called "transaction signing"21:02
itsnotabigtruckalso the banks have moved away from public key tokens entirely21:02
Venemodjszapi, https://gitorious.org/colorful-apps/irc-chatter/blobs/master/debian/changelog21:04
Venemodjszapi, I'd like to know whether your favourite bug is present21:05
djszapiVenemo: you might wanna detail the last point.21:05
Venemodjszapi, the bug which caused random text to appear in your message text field21:06
djszapilast point, as in the last point of the changelog...21:06
bef0rddjszapi beford.net/random/buildlogX21:06
djszapifor the newest release.21:06
djszapihttp://imagebin.org/201843 -> so true21:06
Venemodjszapi, also, news to you: there is now a bugzilla accepting bugs for IRC Chatter: http://bit.ly/nemoappsbugs - component is "IRC Client"21:07
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djszapibef0rd: tst_qtimer.cpp:161: error: ‘QVERIFY’ was not declared in this scope21:08
* djszapi is looking into the code21:08
itsnotabigtruckhttp://djbogtrotter.co.uk/2012/03/02/retold/21:08
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djszapibef0rd: could you please modify that to VERIFY2 ?21:10
djszapifrom VERIFY(... ?21:10
* djszapi wonders who this worked at all previously on any platforms...21:12
* djszapi does not usually like macros21:12
djszapihow*21:12
bef0rdwhere is that file21:13
djszapiI mean pretty sure it is some macro related issue on Mac.21:13
djszapiit might be a a more benevolent situation for Linux and Windows.21:13
djszapibef0rd: ./tests/auto/corelib/kernel/qtimer/tst_qtimer.cpp -> line 16121:14
djszapibef0rd: also, could you please wrap your build log on the website somehow ?21:14
djszapiit is hard to read :/21:14
befordI can't, its just a text fle the wrapping is done on your browser. just wget it next time, let me change it21:18
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djszapihave you made the change and rebuild ?21:25
bef0rdyes its going ok now :)21:25
djszapiokay, it confirms my theory about the macro crappyness xD21:29
befordbut that's weird no?21:30
befordits supposed to use gcc on all the plataforms21:30
bef0rd28 paased 0 failed21:32
djszapibef0rd: macro is a prepocessor thing21:32
djszapiit is like an editor, not compiler.21:32
djszapiwell, thing is that macro can mess up in zillion ways.21:32
djszapibef0rd: can you show the test run output ?21:33
bef0rdhttp://paste.kde.org/432830/21:33
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befordbrb21:34
djszapithanks21:36
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djszapiN9Venemo_N950, yes, the annoying bug is still present22:15
djszapiN9reproduced in about couple of seconds.22:15
Venemo_N950djszapi, ok22:16
Venemo_N950djszapiN9, so, when you switch channels, the text field will contain garbage?22:17
djszapiN9i do not even need to change channels.22:17
Venemo_N950ok, I'll investigate immediately22:18
djszapiN9even if i click on the input field, it randomly happens.22:18
Venemo_N950hm.22:18
Venemo_N950okay, I'll look into it22:19
djszapiN9make sure 1) you erase it properly 2) nothing overwrites it, just the vkbd22:19
Venemo_N950djszapiN9, all right22:20
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djszapiN9all the hw kb obviously.22:21
djszapiN9or*22:21
djszapiN9afaik iy is prolly not complete random garbage most of the time.22:22
djszapiN9it*22:22
Venemo_N950what I don't understand is why it never occours for me.22:22
djszapiN9and it happens in any input fields.22:23
djszapiN9not just the chat one.22:23
Venemo_N950djszapi, seriously?22:23
djszapiN9it also yakes place in the search field of the user list.22:23
djszapiN9takes*22:23
djszapiN9I am noy kidding, no.22:23
djszapiN9not*22:23
Venemo_N950djszapi, and the server settings dialog, channel join dialog too?22:24
* djszapi needs to work now on other stuff22:28
Venemo_N950ok :)22:30
Venemo_N950thanks for looking at it djszapi :)22:30
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djszapiVenemo_N950: two things scare me off about irc-chatter22:31
djszapi1) This very issue 2) It is not available in Ovi22:31
djszapiand these make me use the other one available in Ovi.22:31
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Venemo_N950djszapi, you already told me, and I'm working on it!22:34
Venemo_N950djszapi, scrolldown is buggy too.22:35
Venemo_N950djszapi, have you found other bugs?22:36
djszapiN9of course :p22:37
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itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: are you worried the text corruption problem = symptom of a security bug?22:38
djszapiN9of course not.22:39
itsnotabigtruckcould be corruption caused by a heap overflow somewhere22:39
djszapi...we need fixes, not advises :)22:39
djszapieverybody knows how random content can get into a variable. :D22:40
djszapiadvices*22:40
djszapiN9Venemo_N950, you mean the scrollbar in the user list ?22:41
djszapiN9I am not sure it is a good idea to have all those settings.22:43
djszapiN9like text cursor focus.22:43
djszapiN9monospace front is imo awkward, too.22:43
djszapiN9why do you use words instead of colora ? are you afraid of the colorblind people ?22:44
djszapiN9the time stamp switch does not function here.22:45
djszapiN9show event text is way too long22:46
djszapiN9i would just write show events, if any22:46
djszapiN9and maximum a user guide icon with relevant action.22:46
djszapiN9you might wanna put email into the about dialog22:48
djszapiN9or the url to the nemo bug report thingie22:48
djszapiN9I wiuld probably put the log in there as well.22:49
djszapiN9to make it less dull22:49
djszapiN9i22:51
djszapiN9would personally use columns, and not rows in the settings for the several irc channels inside the given server.22:52
Venemo_N950hmhm22:52
djszapiN9flicking is simple, editing a long row is not.22:52
Venemo_N950long row?22:53
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djszapiyes, with many channels inside22:54
djszapialso, adding yet another server killed irc-chatter here completely.22:54
itsnotabigtruckhmm, where should i obtain the latest irc chatter22:55
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: read the log22:55
djszapihe just mentioned few lines above22:55
itsnotabigtruckgot it, http://venemo.fedorapeople.org/harmattan/irc-chatter_0.2.90_armel.deb22:56
Venemodjszapi, how many servers are you talking about, and which one is the other?22:56
djszapiVenemo: 1 + 1, irc.debian.org22:56
Venemodjszapi, so, 2?22:57
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itsnotabigtruckVenemo: grob doesn't seem to like your download22:57
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itsnotabigtruckprobably the mime type22:57
itsnotabigtruckmake sure your server maps .deb to application/x-deb22:57
djszapiVenemo: yes22:57
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950_: sup22:57
Venemodjszapi, worksforme22:58
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950_: new version of irc-chatter?22:58
VenemoZogG_laptop, yes, but apparently it does not work for anybody else22:58
ZogG_laptopVenemo: want me to try?22:58
Venemo_N950_if you want22:58
ZogG_laptopif you want22:58
itsnotabigtruckVenemo_N950_: ui nitpicks: the settings screen section headers don't look harmattanized22:58
itsnotabigtrucki think they're right-justified normally, and in a smaller font22:59
Venemo_N950_itsnotabigtruck, mhm.22:59
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950_: maybe, just maybe you finally upload it to apps for meego and i would try and report any update =)22:59
Venemo_N950_ZogG_laptop, it's still buggy.22:59
itsnotabigtruckalso consider putting a harmattan-style banner at the top of the main screen22:59
Venemo_N950_itsnotabigtruck, on the starting page?23:00
itsnotabigtruckVenemo_N950_: yeah, and anywhere else appropriate23:00
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itsnotabigtruckSSL should change port to the standard of 6697, not 700023:00
itsnotabigtruckfreenode now supports port 669723:01
ZogG_laptopgrob?23:01
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: the web browser23:01
ZogG_laptopn9 ones?23:01
ZogG_laptopnever heard of this23:01
itsnotabigtruckVenemo_N950: if the server config page doesn't like your input, it displays a pop-up notification that sticks off the top of the window23:01
djszapigrob is one, not ones.23:01
djszapiit is the builtin web browser on Harmattan...23:01
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: grob = the web browser that comes with the N923:01
itsnotabigtruckit's not called grob anywhere obvious, but that's what it's called23:02
ZogG_laptopdjszapi: mate, stop doing it23:02
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, it's supposed to be a standard InfoBanner23:02
itsnotabigtruckmaybe the servers should be able to have nicknames23:03
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, ok :)23:03
itsnotabigtrucki'm imagining replacing the main screen with a) a harmattan banner saying IRC Chatter, b) a list of servers by user entered nickname, c) the slider switch to the right23:03
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: yeah it said wrong format but than asked me to save as..23:03
itsnotabigtrucklike it is now, but condensed basically23:03
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, the info banner works for me correctly. what's wrong with it?23:04
djszapiplease do not add nickname to the server23:04
itsnotabigtruckVenemo_N950: it sticks off the top of the window23:04
djszapiplease do not do that on desktop either.23:04
djszapiand the server address is already there anyway23:04
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, could you please make a screenshot of it?23:04
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: why not? e.g. you'd name the entry for irc.freenode.net, Freenode23:04
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: btw colour rss is yours as well?23:04
Venemo_N950ZogG_laptop, ??23:04
ZogG_laptopthe app23:05
itsnotabigtruckthere isn't a way to abort the connection, is there23:05
itsnotabigtrucki think it's stuck23:05
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, there isn't. yet.23:05
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: because it makes no sense23:05
djszapijust even more cluttered settings page, and it is already not simple.23:05
itsnotabigtruckVenemo_N950: should be trivial to repro on PR1.223:06
itsnotabigtruckblank the nickname field on an N9 set to english23:06
itsnotabigtrucktap save23:06
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, it appears correctly for me.23:06
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, obviously I would have fixed it otherwise23:06
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: ssl is 6667?23:06
Venemo_N950could you please make a screenshot and upload it to somewhere?23:07
itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: no, 669723:07
itsnotabigtruckVenemo_N950: hold on, this takes time23:07
ZogG_laptopthat's why i can't connect23:07
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, ok23:07
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: it says connectng and no error or anythig fro a while23:07
Venemo_N950ZogG_laptop, what's the console output?23:08
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ZogG_laptopsyslog or you want me to start from console?23:08
itsnotabigtruckvenemo_n950: http://i.imgur.com/UKQR8.png23:09
djszapiVenemo_N950: I would not change the port for SSL tick.23:09
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, thanks23:09
djszapiit does not matter from user POV, what port it is23:09
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djszapiyou do not pass that to irssi either, just -ssl23:10
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: irc servers are on all sorts of different ports23:10
Venemo_N950the user should know what port the server is on. imo.23:10
itsnotabigtruckfor irc in particular, the port is really important23:10
itsnotabigtruckthere should be a default port, of course23:10
djszapiVenemo_N950: yes, but that has nothing to do with the SSL tick.23:10
itsnotabigtruckbut you mention irssi, irssi also lets you set the port23:11
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: you do realize that with irc, ssl requires a different port23:11
itsnotabigtruckirc servers have non-ssl ports and ssl ports, and they're different23:11
Venemo_N950I let you set the port too.23:11
itsnotabigtruckspecifying -ssl with irssi changes the default port it uses23:11
djszapiVenemo_N950: but I would not like to mess up as a user23:11
djszapiI simply do not care23:11
djszapiall I care is ticked.23:11
djszapiand the "default" server port.23:12
Venemo_N950mhm23:12
djszapithat is how it is done in irssi with the -ssl option.23:12
Venemo_N950djszapi, btw, the timestamp setting works, but only for new messages23:12
itsnotabigtruckwell, the port has to be able to changed. that's not an option.23:12
itsnotabigtruckhowever, it would be a good idea to segregate some stuff out to an advanced settings section23:12
djszapiVenemo_N950: can you ping me in 2 minutes please ?23:12
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: error popup is half visible23:12
djszapiI will try this time settings23:12
Venemo_N950djszapi, yes.23:12
Venemo_N950ZogG_laptop, yeah, itsnotabigtruck already told me :)23:12
itsnotabigtrucke.g. hostname, nickname, SSL, and autojoin channels are important23:13
itsnotabigtruckthe other stuff...meh23:13
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: seen screensht?23:13
Venemo_N950ZogG_laptop, yep23:13
itsnotabigtruckis it considered harmattan-ish to have an expando area with advanced settings in it?23:13
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: got an error23:13
itsnotabigtruckdoes qml include such a widget?23:13
djszapiVenemo_N950: also, please expose the delete of the servers outside23:13
djszapinot inside the settings23:13
ZogG_laptopreconnecting to server  "irc.freenode.net"23:13
ZogG_laptopQAbstractSocket::connectToHost() called when already looking up or connecting/connected to "irc.freenode.net"23:13
ZogG_laptopIrcSessionPrivate::_q_error(): QAbstractSocket::SocketError( 13 )23:14
ZogG_laptopbackend for  "irc.freenode.net"  has been disconnected from the server23:14
djszapiyou can probably use icons instead of long texts.23:14
itsnotabigtruckdjszapi: isn't delete-inside a harmattan style thing23:14
ZogG_laptopbut it still showing that's it's trying to connect23:14
itsnotabigtrucke.g. accounts ui does it23:14
Venemo_N950ZogG_laptop, pastebin23:14
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: yeah i know but only 4 lines23:14
djszapiitsnotabigtruck: no23:14
itsnotabigtruckas it stands, irc chatter just doesn't feel native23:14
Venemo_N950djszapi, it didn't fit into the outside layout23:14
djszapiif you have edit button outside, delete button should be there too23:14
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, ok23:15
Venemo_N950djszapi, ok23:15
djszapiVenemo_N950: then just remove the edit23:15
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Venemo_N950djszapi, then how would you edit?23:15
djszapiVenemo_N950: just tap23:15
ZogG_laptopok it's connnnected while it was not ssl23:15
djszapiremove connect to23:15
djszapitoo*23:15
ZogG_laptopssl on 6697 failed23:15
itsnotabigtruckVenemo_N950: on the subject of the servers screen again - instead of having two states (not connected, connected)23:15
djszapiVenemo: put it inside23:15
itsnotabigtruckmake it so that you can disconnect and connect to any server at any time23:15
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, it's so23:15
itsnotabigtruckthe connect switch shouldn't control whether to connect when the user taps the checkmark, but instead tell it to connect right away23:15
itsnotabigtruckit ought to work like the NFC switch in settings23:16
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, menu -> manage servers23:16
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ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: the bottom panel has changed?23:16
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, works exactly as you say23:16
ZogG_laptopit looks not native23:16
ZogG_laptopaspecially with not one color23:16
Venemo_N950ZogG_laptop, it has changed, yes23:16
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: the old one looked better imho23:16
Venemo_N950ok.23:17
itsnotabigtruckwhere flipping the switch greys it out and causes the rotating indicato AAAHH SSH LAG23:17
djszapiN9Venemo_N950, ping23:17
itsnotabigtruckanyway, causes the rotating indicator to appear next to the switch23:17
Venemo_N950djszapi, pong23:17
djszapiVenemo_N950: thanks. I like the new toolbar better.23:17
Venemo_N950itsnotabigtruck, hm?23:17
itsnotabigtruckVenemo_N950: no, it doesn't work as i say23:17
itsnotabigtruckcurrently, when you're on the servers screen, the switches control which servers you want to connect to *later*23:18
ZogG_laptopVenemo_N950: rotation should be in settings, auto/landscape/portrait23:18
itsnotabigtruckwhat i'm suggesting instead is that the switch is directly linked to whether it's connected *right now*23:18
djszapiVenemo_N950: you could probably have a little bit longer (wider) input text field.23:18
itsnotabigtruckwhich makes it work like the harmattan settings screen23:18
bindiI just sold my Galaxy Nexus and went back to N900 D:23:18
itsnotabigtruckwhere changes are live23:18
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, when you start the app, you need to tell it which servers you want it to connect to.23:18
itsnotabigtruckalso btw i can't get this to connect...i'm not sure if it's a problem on my end or what, but it just stalls23:19
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, when you're already connected, you can go to "manage servers" where the changes are immediate.23:19
djszapiVenemo: I suggest you a listview for the servers, as I use those.23:19
djszapisimple ListItem with my additions from master.23:19
djszapiedit for tap, done.23:19
djszapivery simple and usable.23:19
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: ah, haven't gotten there yet23:19
itsnotabigtruckalso, whoa23:19
itsnotabigtrucka) somehow irc chatter saved my server settings with no nickname entered23:20
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, how is somehow?23:20
itsnotabigtruckb) editing the server and tapping save caused the settings screen to not slide completely out of view23:20
itsnotabigtruckit was left at the bottom of the screen23:20
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, I have no idea about that.23:20
itsnotabigtruckthen it disappeared a little while after23:20
VenemoI use the standard Harmattan components...23:20
itsnotabigtruckso it looks like the bar at the bottom isn't getting redrawn23:20
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, worksforme. but as I said, I use the standard components, so there's not much I can do there.23:21
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: it's still stalling on irc.freenode.net, port 6697, ssl on23:21
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itsnotabigtruckand it works normally, it just happened this one time23:21
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, try port 700023:22
itsnotabigtruckso it's not "worksforme", it's, haven't found it yet23:22
* djszapi feels more and more "Port" is useless from user point of view23:22
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: no go23:22
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, so it works sometimes and it stalls sometimes?23:24
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: no, i still haven't been able to connect to freenode23:25
itsnotabigtrucki'll try my own irc server23:25
djszapiworks for me.23:25
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Venemoitsnotabigtruck, works for me on the default port and also on port 7000 when I set SSL23:26
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: does it work if username and realname are left blank?23:26
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, yes, it should.23:27
itsnotabigtruckjust tried my own server, it's still stuck23:27
Venemoah, port 6697 causes an QAbstractSocket::SslHandshakeFailedError23:27
itsnotabigtrucki'll try connecting to 3g23:27
Venemoon freenode at least.23:27
djszapiVenemo: bug here: delete the port, tick SSL, try to save23:27
djszapisee the cropped info banner text.23:27
VenemoI saw.23:27
djszapi(portrait mosw)23:27
djszapimode*23:27
Venemodjszapi, yep, you are third to mention it :)23:28
djszapiright23:28
itsnotabigtruckok, switching to 3G didn't help23:28
itsnotabigtruckusing port 9999 now23:29
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Venemoitsnotabigtruck, why would switching to 3G help?23:29
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itsnotabigtruckVenemo: /me shrugs, just testing another variable23:32
itsnotabigtruckso you have an ssl error with port 6697?23:32
itsnotabigtruckbtw there should also be an option for whether to validate the ssl certificate23:32
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: are you testing with SSL enabled?23:33
itsnotabigtrucki just got connected to freenode, but only by turning ssl off23:33
itsnotabigtrucki think SSL connections are just plain broken atm23:34
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itsnotabigtruckhmm, i'm liking irc chatter a lot more now that i'm connected23:35
Venemoitsnotabigtruck :)23:35
itsnotabigtruckthe actual chat view is pretty stylish23:35
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, you are right! it seems that something is indeed wrong with SSL23:36
itsnotabigtruckthe pop-up menu has a margin at the bottom if a server is selected, but not if a channel is selected23:36
itsnotabigtruckalso it looks like really long words (like urls) don't get wordwrapped23:37
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, yep, because menu items change when a channel is selected23:38
itsnotabigtruckalso somehow i entered "left:left:" into the input box by tapping around the window23:38
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, yep, you found djszapi's favourite bug23:39
itsnotabigtruckoh heh23:39
itsnotabigtruckregarding the menu, but it should still have a margin all the time, right?23:39
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, I dunno, that's a standard component too. but perhaps there are a bit too much items in it.23:39
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, that bug... that is something I couldn't reproduce for about half a year now.23:40
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: yep, that's it23:40
itsnotabigtruck7 items is exactly enough to cause scrolling to kick in23:40
itsnotabigtruckso maybe try to stick to either 6 or less, or more than 723:41
itsnotabigtruckquit can probably be eliminated in favor of just using the top-to-bottom swipe23:41
Venemook23:42
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, I deleted it :)23:43
itsnotabigtruckyay23:43
itsnotabigtruckhmm, is there any sort of context menu in QML23:43
itsnotabigtruckthe yes/no prompt when you tap a username doesn't seem very elegant23:43
itsnotabigtruckbut i don't think context menus are very n9ish23:44
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, well, if you have a better idea, I'm listening :)23:44
itsnotabigtruckheh23:44
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: might it be possible to make it so that tapping a username, instead of displaying the copy/paste markers, displays a query marker instead?23:45
itsnotabigtruckbut since the existing behavior is probably hardwired into the qml widget, it would probably be a huge task23:45
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Venemoitsnotabigtruck, correct. the existing behaviour is wired in the text area. even the ability to tap on a username is a hack :)23:47
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: /msg Venemo http://zogg.tumblr.com/post/18684845227/how-you-shouldnt-manage-your-shit23:50
ZogG_laptopoops =)23:50
ZogG_laptopmeh, whatever =)23:50
itsnotabigtrucklol23:50
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itsnotabigtruckZogG_laptop: well, i think we already covered that in actuality, everything is available for you to use signon23:52
itsnotabigtruckit's a shame that nokia has allowed its sdk to become dated23:52
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itsnotabigtruckbut there is something you can do about it, and it's not that hard23:52
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Venemoitsnotabigtruck, btw, I plan to eliminate the page which says "Connecting, please wait", but it's not trivial.23:53
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, anyway, thanks for noticing the SSL bug, I now fixed it23:54
itsnotabigtruckcool23:54
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: what happens if you connect to a net without a valid cert23:54
itsnotabigtruckwhich btw is a whole lot of them23:54
ZogG_laptopitsnotabigtruck: i can do, as well as i can write my own or use other oauth lib, but it's not right ways, i think Nokia should help developers and not making it harder23:55
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, well, by design, SSL errors were ignored. however, there was a very stupid mistake which caused a regression. the issue was not the SSL cert23:56
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, you also got a title banner and prettier title labels :)23:56
VenemoI'll make a new package soon23:56
itsnotabigtruckVenemo: heh23:56
Venemoitsnotabigtruck, could you please join #irc-chatter ? I'd like to ask you more about the other bug23:57
itsnotabigtruckok23:57

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