IRC log of #harmattan for Monday, 2011-10-10

ieatlintbut if it depends on qt, then my qtsdk will only exist inside of the qtsdk toolchain, so it'd be as annoying as hell to build it outside of qtcreator00:00
artemmareally00:00
artemma?00:00
artemmachecking00:00
matrixxartemma: I'll buy it tomorrow and review it :)00:00
matrixxnow have to get some sleep, early wakeup00:00
artemmagreat, matrixx!00:00
artemmawhich one is your app? :/00:00
matrixxMash00:00
artemmaah, I was looking at the wrong tab00:01
MohammadAGartemma, which app got you #1?00:01
MohammadAG(no N9(50) with me atm)00:01
artemmaEasy Discount Calculator - http://store.ovi.com/content/18674200:01
artemmawell, right now N9 ships is on sales to some countries only00:02
artemmaso the 1st place in top sellers is shaky00:02
MohammadAGcool, congrats :)00:02
artemmathat is why I need reviews and ratings so much :)00:02
MohammadAGmy N950 should be here tomorrow00:02
artemmaI must warn that discount calc is paid, not free00:03
artemmathough not expensice either00:03
artemmanot expensive00:03
matrixxyeah, I'm also celebrating until massive sales start :D00:03
RST38hWill it also let me compute the markup? =)00:03
artemmaRST38h: as long as there is a discount - easily! :)00:03
artemmaI wonder if there's a public yammer gateway to twitter to try matrixx 's app in real world00:04
matrixxI have no idea :/00:04
artemmabut I've seen the live demo already, so can rate wholeheartedly anyway00:04
matrixxhmm, I wonder if the top seller apps are in the rank order when you check the list of all apps00:05
matrixxmine seems to be #7 :)00:05
SpeedEvilYou'r outselling EA!00:06
matrixxI wish :D00:06
matrixxthen I could buy N9 :)00:06
SpeedEvil'The Sims' is only #5 in games00:07
artemmamatrixx, check your app's review page ;)00:09
artemmaI can't even see sims in the games best sellers00:10
artemmaoh no, it's here00:10
artemma#6 for me00:11
matrixxartemma: thanks :D00:12
* SpeedEvil fails.00:12
matrixxI can see also sims as #600:12
SpeedEvilWhat is your app matrixx?00:12
matrixxSpeedEvil: Mash - a mobile Yammer client :)00:12
DocScrutinizera wut?00:13
artemmaYammer is like mobile twitter/facebook for corporations00:13
DocScrutinizeraah game, never mind00:13
matrixxhehe, people either know Yammer or doesn't have ever heard of it :D00:13
artemmawell, not actually mobile, just like corporate twitter/facebook00:13
SpeedEvilAh.00:14
matrixxI'm using it in my day job, so I made it for own use originally00:14
SpeedEvilI'm in the never heard of camp.,00:14
* DocScrutinizer too00:14
artemmawell, it only makes sense if you work for big corporation00:15
djszapiI am also using it a lot (yammer) :)00:15
artemmaand even then not everybody is into it00:15
SpeedEvilIndeed.00:15
matrixxyeah, don't know very small ones who are using00:15
SpeedEvilmatrixx: can you reveal order of magnitude sales?00:15
* DocScrutinizer grins evilly about "Yammer" which really sounds ... *cough*, in Germany00:15
matrixxSpeedEvil: I can, a less than a hundred :D00:15
djszapiartemma: which company do you work for ?00:15
SpeedEvilCan't imagine it's many, as the n9 doesn't seem to have had a huge initial push of orders.00:15
SpeedEvilmatrixx: That's not horrible at all.00:16
matrixxdjszapi: oh :D00:16
* artemma gets ready for yet another reinstallation of QtSDK, this one from online. Sigh00:16
artemmadjszapi: I am independent contractor for now00:16
matrixxSpeedEvil: yeah it's ok cause it's not really well on sales yet00:16
djszapiieatlint: could you manage the cmake installation ?00:16
artemmajust got my first gig to be starting on Tuesday actually :)00:16
djszapiI am also in change :p00:16
artemmathat is if nothing prevents the final signing00:16
matrixxactually meant to "oh :D" for DocScrutinizer00:17
artemmabefore that I was working for Nokia for years00:17
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djszapiartemma: fremantle, harmattan, symbian, or something else ?00:18
artemmasymbian speech recognition/synthesis, then Qt UI related tools00:18
djszapido you know this project, Simon ?00:19
artemmaif you are using text-to-speech ringing tone on Symbian, that wss my first project in Nokia00:19
artemmaSimon? Doesn't ring a bell00:19
djszapihttp://akademy2010.kde.org/node/51100:19
matrixxI saw Simon at AKademy summer 201000:19
matrixxkinda very cool :)00:20
djszapiyeah, there are pdf and video there :)00:20
dm8tbrDocScrutinizer: when I have a grumpy day I call our crowd of yammer users 'yammerlappen'00:20
artemmaoh, I was working on speech recognition until sopmething like 200700:20
artemmathat day, Nokia was best in class00:20
artemmawith huge amount of languages working real well00:20
DocScrutinizerdm8tbr: thought as much :-D00:20
artemmaand some - ok00:20
MohammadAGthen along came the iPhone00:20
RST38hAnd it was good.00:21
djszapiartemma: what was it based on ?00:21
artemmaiPhone has nothing comparable until recently00:21
RST38hAnd the fauthful multiplied.00:21
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artemmaand even nowadays I doubt it will be as good as nokia for non-english langs00:21
RST38hfaIthful sorry00:21
MohammadAGthe N95 could beat the iPhone 2G hands down00:21
DocScrutinizerfor those completely lost: replace Y by J00:21
RST38hNobody needs non-English langs00:21
RST38hHasn't Elop told you that only US market matters?00:21
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, QWERTJ kejboards rock00:22
artemmainterestingly the final quality of speech recognition depended really a lot on the microphine and audio drivers. Some shitty hardware needed lots of manual fine tuning and it didn't help. Other phones - perfect00:22
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: meh ;-P00:22
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artemmadjszapi: based on internal nokia research00:22
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* RST38h visited a few electronics stores yesterday (Maryland, US): there are 2 (TWO) WP7 phones vs 20+ Android ones00:22
artemmabasis is done by Nokia Research Center and therefore available for everybody00:22
artemmaconcrete implementation - Nokia's00:23
leinirexcept in one incredibly important aspect: usability. While i don't agree with the iphone's concept of "the user is an idiot and must be protected from themselves at any cost", the older symbians simply had no usability considerations taken... Buttons in inconsistent locations, mixed interactions methods all over the place...00:23
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: it's just our german 'J' is spoken like english 'Y'00:23
RST38hleinir: Sorry but I will disagree00:23
DocScrutinizerdunno the proper translation of "Jammerlappen" though00:23
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, yeah, I recently learned Joerg is spelled Yorg00:23
RST38hleinir: Used E70 for a long time and it was very, VERY usable. Seemingly "random" buttons were at just the right places for one handed operation00:24
djszapiartemma: ahh so you did not use Julius or HTK like Simon.00:24
artemmanope00:24
artemmawell, not to my understanding00:24
sivangartemma: what's concerete implementation?00:24
RST38hNone of the current tablet-phones are even getting close00:24
DocScrutinizermor like Yearg00:24
artemmaI wasn't really about the algorithms00:24
leinirRST38h: i'm sorry, but when the "back" button can be in two different place on /core/ applications (like settings and an email client), holy crap man...00:24
artemmaI was caring about middleware and some overall engineering practices later00:24
RST38hleinir: it is the left softkey. Always.00:24
sivangDocScrutinizer: I like German, especially when spoken by bechlorette partiers in Berlin's U-Bahn ;)00:25
sivangleinir: yep, I actually gave a talk about this :)00:25
leinirsivang: *nods*00:25
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, considering I always thought it was spelled Joereg... :P00:25
sivangleinir: well, timeless did that was his part :)00:25
artemmasivang: you know there's engine implementation, lots of algorithm finetunings based on ecordings, server-client exchange of date, integration into UX, etc00:25
sivangartemma: into Harmattan?00:25
artemmasivang: we were talking about old symbian times00:26
sivangartemma: or is this to makethe OS possilbe on the trimmed hardware00:26
sivangartemma: ah right00:26
sivangDocScrutinizer: I had to luck to be invited to drink with them 4 times in a row, while taking the U-Bahn there00:26
sivangDocScrutinizer: shame I do not drink... anymore ;)00:26
leinirAlso, dismissing menus, either with a tap ouside the menu, or by tapping the cancel button... yeah, that's pretty much unforgivable... At least they're much, much better now - Anna's just about there (even got the Chris Hills seal of approval) and Belle, well, i have high hopes there... But, what the N8 was born with... *shivers*00:27
artemmaBTW about careers, if somebody knows a company in need of expert QML coder, I am available for contracting right here. That is unless you all promote my app so that it sells like hell00:27
RST38hQML...Umgh.00:27
leinirMmm, QML :)00:28
* artemma wonders if he can call himself truly expert if it takes a day to fix his Qt SDK00:28
djszapiartemma: Basyskom00:28
djszapiplasma active00:28
leinir(just balancing it out, there ;) )00:28
MohammadAGI made a buss app in 10 minutes for the N90000:28
MohammadAGQWidgets were awesome00:28
ieatlintdjszapi: yeah, i can install cmake... downloading now00:28
sivangHmm QML :-)00:28
artemmathx00:28
djszapiieatlint: excellent :)00:29
RST38hMeanwhile: http://gizmodo.com/5848065/orange-france-leaks-nokia-sun-windows-phone-nee-nokia-sea-ray00:29
sivangartemma: basysKom are doing pretty neat stuff with it, indeed.00:29
sivangartemma: Contour, plasma active00:29
sivangas djszapi said :)00:29
RST38hartemma: I think choosing to use QtSDK has been your first mistake00:29
artemma?00:29
djszapiartemma: I am now actually building the plasma qt components for Harmattan00:29
djszapithat is what we will hopefully be hacking at the sprint :)00:30
RST38hartemma: Rather than installing quirky but rather standard Platform SDK, you went with the MADDEness thing00:30
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RST38hartemma: That kinda works, if you are real careful and are not touching any wrong things00:30
artemmaQt SDK was working well for me00:30
artemmaheh00:30
DocScrutinizerwell, about buttons: dialer accept and reject buttons (in fremantle) are as bad as it possibly gets: close to each other, pretty small without no particular reason, and no smart safe-operation concept like using slider-switches like e.g. the ones found in HARM settings00:30
RST38hHell, even qmake does not work properly00:30
artemmathe point of sdk is to get stuff up and running quickly00:30
artemmayeah, Plasma is cool00:31
RST38hartemma: Never happens in reality00:31
djszapias we can see ...00:31
artemmait was :)00:31
artemmauntil I broke it00:31
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djszapiI have never seen so many problems earlier than here with QtCreator and Madde from people.00:31
artemmaRST38h: what platform sdk do you mean?00:31
sivangDocScrutinizer: this is solved in Harmattan accept / reject call UX00:32
sivangDocScrutinizer: I was quite joyed to see it00:32
sivangRST38h: what issues are you having with the SDK?00:32
matrixxI'm running plasma over MeeGo on ExoPC00:32
matrixxit's awesome :)00:32
RST38hartemma: SB-based one00:32
sivangRST38h: (I use it for all of my Qt /Qml dev needs now days, and I used to use vi qmake and make )00:32
DocScrutinizerthe get-it-up-quickly stuff also is the stuff where you run into limitations just as quick and never achieve a really good finalized result00:32
artemmaI don't know what it is00:32
sivangmatrixx: ++00:32
RST38hsivang: like...unability to package Harmattan apps when running QtSDK on WIndows?00:32
sivangRST38h: I use it on Linux...00:33
RST38hsivang: Resulting in...surprise...inability to run them on the emulator?00:33
RST38hsivang: I do not really care what you use.00:33
sivangRST38h: and the bug not fixed yet?00:33
RST38hsivang:No idea00:33
sivangRST38h: well,maybe you can set up a build environemtn yourself on windows that would not have this issue?00:33
* sivang guesses00:33
GeneralAntillesMohammadAG, ping?00:34
sivangI wish I know something about windows. ALl my knowledge in that went to oblivion when I stopped using it..00:34
RST38hI am no longer having this issue.00:34
sivangRST38h: not using qtsdk ?00:34
RST38hI switched to the Platform SDK on Linux.00:34
sivangRST38h: ah, as in SB?00:34
djszapisivang: windows 7 is in a pretty good shape00:34
sivangI gues the number of sdk tesers on windows is small or so00:34
RST38hNot using qmake either, after finding out it will silently drop source files from the build if it suspects them of having a circular dependency00:34
ieatlintdjszapi: http://pastebin.com/ydZ2huvS00:34
MohammadAGGeneralAntilles, pong00:34
sivangdjszapi: still not in as good shape as my ubuntu on the laptop , and I know people will flamewar me for saying the U word :)00:35
GeneralAntillesMohammadAG, what was the failure mode of your N950?00:35
GeneralAntillesMine's started turning itself off on its own.00:35
sivangouch00:35
MohammadAGGeneralAntilles, overheating00:35
MohammadAGbut nope, no offs here00:35
RST38hAnd I am not even going to start on the abomination they call "moc"00:35
djszapiieatlint: you have at least qt 4.7 right ?00:35
* sivang needs to use it more oftenly00:35
GeneralAntillesHrm00:35
MohammadAGwell, other than the time I turned it off cause it was burning hot00:36
GeneralAntillesalterego says his has done the same thing00:36
GeneralAntillesYeah, no overheating here.00:36
* artemma decided to reboot before reinstalling just in case. Feels ashamed for doing it on mac00:36
sivangRST38h: this abomination allows me to do Python like programming, remind you what you tried doing that got you upset?00:36
RST38hGAN: Sure it is not the battery going?00:36
sivangRST38h: python like in C++ , that is00:36
RST38hsivang: Google for "limitation of using moc"00:36
GeneralAntillesRST38h, battery meter is one bar down.00:36
RST38hlimitations00:36
RST38hGAN: Weird00:36
GeneralAntillesYeah00:36
sivangRST38h: ah right,something about you cannot change the base classes after being moc'd etc00:37
RST38hFirmware crash?00:37
sivangRST38h: I think we discussed it sometime ago00:37
RST38hsivang: google for "diamond dependency"00:37
ieatlintdjszapi: as said, qt is not in my base system, and only in my qtsdk install00:37
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ieatlintso no, it's not going to find qt00:37
sivangRST38h: well, you should avoid that as a good coding measure in C++ but not sure if moc is doing it in error?00:37
sivangRST38h: e.g. a limitation of C++, as far as my uneducated opinion runs00:38
RST38hsivang: MOC will break badly on classes that have got a diamond dependency00:38
djszapiieatlint: it is a qt based application ;)00:38
sivangRST38h: why do you want those classes?00:38
RST38hThe diamond dependency is not a problem on its own though, C++ allows it and there are contexts where it is useful00:38
ieatlintdjszapi: yeah, i commented earlier that if it was qt based, it wouldn't work here :P00:38
sivangRST38h: like which contexts?00:39
RST38hsivang: Imagine inheriting a class from two Qt classes.00:39
ieatlintall my work on osx i do via qtcreator00:39
MohammadAGGeneralAntilles, send it back00:39
djszapiieatlint: weird, I thought you do have qt installed if you are lurking here :p00:39
RST38hsivang: Which sounds perfectly normal00:39
sivangRST38h: better use composition00:39
MohammadAGask ddp.program at nokia dot com00:39
ieatlintdjszapi: i do, on my linux laptop00:39
ieatlintwhere i'm currently doing qt5 work even00:39
GeneralAntillesMohammadAG, afraid I'm never gonna get another one. :P00:39
RST38hsivang: Not asking what I am "supposed" to use00:39
sivangRST38h: even inPython I avoid that, because it makes my code impossible to maintain by someone sle00:39
RST38hsivang: Semantically, deriving from two Qt classes is ok00:39
MohammadAGGeneralAntilles, hey, I got one :p00:39
RST38hsivang: Until you try running your new class through MOC00:40
MohammadAGGeneralAntilles, contact them first00:40
RST38hsivang: And suddenly find out that all Qt classes are derived from QObject. FAIL.00:40
MohammadAGthey replied saying they can send me a replacement the day it arrives00:40
MohammadAGthey sent it two laters, but it's in Israeli customs atm00:40
djszapisivang: I might stay there after the sprint, too, btw ;)00:40
djszapifor a party or two ;)00:41
sivangRST38h: I'm just practical, if something does not work I tend to try the way that works.00:41
sivangdjszapi: that'll be cool :)00:41
RST38hsivang: Of course, this is what I have done00:41
sivangRST38h: what kind of breakage ?00:41
RST38hsivang: By avoiding buggy tools like QMake and (largely) MOC00:41
MohammadAGderiving two classes technically works00:41
RST38hMohammad: No reason why it should not00:42
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sivangRST38h: how did you solve it what did you use and what did you acheieve? it is just that recent paradigms in OOP00:42
MohammadAGQPushButton derives from QWidget which is QObject based00:42
djszapimatrixx: are there videos about openmind, for instance the talks ?00:42
RST38hsivang: C++ is not OOP.00:42
sivangRST38h: and OOD encourage composition instead of inheritence , since inheritence quickly becoming the new spahgettit00:42
RST38hsivang: Smalltalk is OOP. C++ is C with member functions.00:43
sivangRST38h: well, then Qt makes it oop, where everything is an (Q)Object :)00:43
* RST38h sighs: I am seeing spaghetti composition about x10 times more often than spaghetti inheritance00:43
RST38hsivang: Perfect, just perfect00:43
sivangRST38h: I see, that's interested00:44
sivanginteresting.00:44
RST38hsivang: And this causes the diamond dependency for everyone :))00:44
sivangRST38h: composition?00:44
RST38hWhich is exactly why a lot of people suggest AGAINST having a common Object class.00:44
sivangRST38h: so , how did you solve your wish, e.g. doing multiple inheritence ?00:44
sivangRST38h: what tools did you use without moc/qmake00:44
RST38hsivang: Scroll up and read.00:44
sivangRST38h: backlog got cut...00:45
sivangRST38h: power drops00:45
sivang:-/00:45
RST38hsivang: Basically, there is normal 'make' utility00:46
sivangRST38h: indeed, which qmake creates makefiles for00:46
RST38hsivang: That tends to work properly most of the time00:46
RST38hsivang: And there are virtual callback methods inside Qt API00:46
sivangRST38h: so being virutal, you control which object they derive their implementation from instead of MOC?00:47
* sivang might be talking nonsense and admits it.00:47
RST38hsivang: Do you understand how MOC works at all?00:47
* sivang notes it is rather late00:47
RST38hHave you ever bothered to read MOC-generated code, out of plain curiosity maybe?00:47
sivangRST38h: I understand that it uses the signals: and slots: code in the "base" code to create the actual stuff that's compiled00:48
RST38hThere are no signals and slots in C++00:48
sivangRST38h: by a proper C++ compiler, such that the magic of signals and slots will work00:48
RST38hNo00:48
RST38hC++ compiler does not give a moose ball about all this stuff00:48
sivangRST38h: I have tried reading it- but there was too many constants and other stuff and I Went back to Qt00:49
RST38hBut anyway, it is probably not the right time and place for a lecture00:49
ieatlintyes yes, moc is a preprocessor for qt, and the moc generated files are then compiled00:49
sivangRST38h: I need to give it some time to read, as a not so experienced C++ person00:49
sivangRST38h: I would be delighted to hear more or being sent to read more if you care to tel where :)00:49
ieatlintif you ever do want to give a lecture, i'd suggest you discuss the topic instead of challenging people on their knowledge00:50
djszapiartemma: do you have Qt installed on your Mac ?00:50
artemmadjszapi: not anymore :D00:50
RST38hsivang: Take a C++ example that uses signals and slots. Pass it through MOC. Read MOC-generated files.00:50
artemmajust killed everthing00:50
djszapiheh00:50
RST38hIt is pretty plain what MOC does (in fact, you do the same by hand in GTK+)00:50
sivangRST38h: I'll retry, I need to give it some time to - it goes slow for me to read that generated code ;)00:50
MohammadAGwait..., there's no signal + slot thing in C++?00:50
artemmamessing up with Qt SDK installer again. Online installation this time00:50
sivangMohammadAG: nope :)00:51
MohammadAGwhat about callbacks?00:51
RST38hMohammad: Nope :) At least not YET00:51
sivangMohammadAG: that's a qmake abstraction00:51
RST38hMohammad: Callbacks are done with virtual member functions in C++00:51
djszapinot qmake ..00:51
sivangMohammadAG: or rather, meta object abstraction that is supported both by qmake and the qt code00:51
djszapiit is moc ;)00:51
djszapimoc works fine with cmake, too :p00:51
sivangerr, the moc00:51
sivangdjszapi: thanks for the correction00:51
RST38hMohammad: In C (see Gtk+ again) you do callbacks with function pointers inside structs00:52
sivangRST38h: that I Know00:52
sivangRST38h: I've done complete apps in C/GTK00:52
sivangfrom scratch including libxml (so helped me god)00:52
djszapithat backup app, right ?00:52
RST38hMohammad:In fact,C++ makes almost no difference between "class"and "struct"keywords00:53
sivangdjszapi: not just, the old printer admin, the cups manager features, gnome system tools etc..00:53
artemmais it ok if I install just platform api and not meego 1.2 harmattan api?00:53
MohammadAGso technically, if you know Qt, you don't actually know C++00:53
RST38hMohammad: "struct" members are made public by default ("class" declares them private)00:53
sivangMohammadAG: that's the beauty of it00:53
MohammadAGyou just know the syntax00:53
sivangMohammadAG: learning C++ to depth can take years00:53
ieatlintMohammadAG: it's a blurrier line than that00:53
sivangMohammadAG: but knowing Qt, you can develop apps after a day00:54
djszapisivang: mainly with the new standard :p00:54
RST38hMohammad: And you may hit some pretty nasty problems initializing class instances with constants (which works flawlessly for structs)00:54
RST38hBut that is about it00:54
sivangdjszapi: ;)00:54
djszapiI sort of tested the things with the newest gcc version, pretty cool features!00:54
sivangRST38h: class instance with constants? how so?00:54
ieatlintqt makes things a lot easier and more manageable, including on low level things00:54
* RST38h yawns: it does not take too much to learn C++. Takes a while to learn not to overuse the damn thing though.00:54
sivangMohammadAG: in short, C++ compiler start to implement what Qt had years ago00:55
RST38hsivang: Like...what?00:55
djszapiieatlint: yeah, but not everywhere, you do still need to write low-level things here and there :p00:55
ieatlintdjszapi: yeah, true00:55
ieatlintand often using C libs for some things00:55
djszapisivang: I would say stl instead of compiler in your last post.00:55
ieatlintbut handling threads and sockets is much nicer in qt00:55
RST38hieatlint: Qt just lets you create UI, easily.That is ALL it does.00:55
* artemma recalls symbian times when he had to practice macro magic, because there was no RTTI. dynamic_cast was unavailable as well BTW00:56
sivangdjszapi: oh right, so stuff like libboost and friends00:56
sivangwhich was not part of stl once00:56
RST38hieatlint: for threads and sockets, it is very unwise to use Qt rather than standard POSIX apis00:56
sivangstuff like dynamic_cast<>00:56
djszapifor instance regexp00:56
ieatlintRST38h: you opinion differs from what many corporations feel then00:56
sivangRST38h: is it a problem to combine the two?00:56
djszapiwhich is now in stl and qt will be rebased on top of that00:56
* RST38h remembers hunting 100+k lines of C++ code for dynamic_cast<> things and removing them because of performance issues00:57
sivangdidn't know that :)00:57
sivangdjszapi: where do you read about all this qt changes?00:57
RST38hieatlint: Corporation cannot "feel".00:57
djszapisivang: qt5-feedback :p00:57
djszapifollowing for a while.00:57
ieatlintRST38h: corporations are people, my friend00:57
sivangdjszapi: I just jouined there00:57
djszapialso, kde-core-devel00:57
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RST38hieatlint: Not really.00:57
ieatlinti was told they were.00:57
RST38hieatlint: Were told a lie then.00:57
ieatlintthe governor of texas would not lie.00:57
sivangRST38h: that is to say that the qobject case is as wastive ?00:58
sivangRST38h: err,qobject_case00:58
RST38hieatlint: take your governor and stick him you know where.00:58
sivangcast00:58
sivangdamnkbd!00:58
RST38hsivang: I do think it is bedtime in .IL.00:58
ieatlinthe's not my governor, and he's against sodomy00:58
sivangRST38h: almost00:58
RST38hieatlint: stick him head-first and call him an enema.00:59
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ieatlint:P00:59
sivangRST38h: this is what I was refrring to: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/metaobjects.html00:59
sivangbut this unfruitful discussion just exhausted me, I'm back at Harmattan app dev tomorrow, mostly with QML so I gues I won't be hitting too many diamond problems :)01:00
RST38hsivang: Yes, and this stuff has certain problems in C++ because it assumes deriving from the same class, and that leads to diamond thing01:00
RST38hsivang: This is why people do not normally create QObject like classes in C++ and that is also why the QObject stuff is non-kosher.01:00
sivangRST38h: ois that the reason for the performance penalty?01:01
RST38hIt is ok though, if MOC wasn't going bonkers from it =)01:01
sivangRST38h: from the casting stuffor the diamond stuff?01:01
RST38hperformance penalty comment has been made in relation to the dynamic_cast<> feature.01:01
RST38hHas no relation to diamonds. Bedtime.01:02
sivangRST38h: do you have a snippet to show me? (Although I may seem as a complete blank, I do know how to read code ;))01:02
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sivangRST38h: I am curious for your usecase of multiple inheritence and its context, as well where it saves performance01:03
sivangRST38h: note, I am *really* asking. I am realtively new to C++/qt and like to doubt things01:03
sivanganyway, pastebins with code snippets that can be executed and make MOC fault to be attachd to qt bug traker, I'll pick it there :)01:04
sivangnight all!01:04
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djszapisup sir Pinheiro-N901:20
pinheiro:)01:22
pinheiroirc Check01:23
pinheiro:) now jabber :)01:23
Pinheiro-N9yes01:23
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djszapiPinheiro-N9: do you come to the KDE Harmattan sprint ?01:30
merlin1991hm how do I type an underscore on the n9?01:35
djszapibotton left bytton ?12301:37
djszapiand then on the right of the space.01:38
pinheiro:)01:38
merlin1991djszapi: you can relax about aegis security holes, I remembered, that we assumed I'd need a token but the app actually needed no token01:39
djszapipinheiro: it would be nice if you can join.01:39
pinheirowill se01:40
pinheirome not acustumed to deb's how does one manualy install a deb?01:41
djszapidpkg -i *.deb01:42
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merlin1991hm another question, where do I get flasher and fw image for the n9?02:06
djszapisame flasher should work like for N95002:09
djszapiI do not think there is a published image.02:09
merlin1991:/02:10
merlin1991I'm pretty sure I'll screw my n9 up within no time, and then I'll need an image :D02:10
djszapiideal stance ;)02:11
merlin1991hey I got a developer n9, I'm supposed to break it :D02:11
djszapiyou mean for free ?02:12
merlin1991yes02:12
djszapiweird, can we get one, too ?02:12
merlin1991:D02:12
ieatlintyeah, i want one02:13
ieatlinti'll trade you an image for one :P02:13
merlin1991:D02:13
merlin1991you should have been in vienna then @ the n9 hackaton :)02:13
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ieatlintyeah, and oddly i can't afford to drop $2k on airfare right now :(02:14
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ieatlinti have hopes with harassing quim for one, but i'm not optimistic02:14
djszapimerlin1991: they even sponsored people from abroad ?02:16
merlin1991we were a mix with only 50% guys from austria02:16
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merlin1991settting up a mfe account enabled the fsckd device autolock, and so far I've found no way to disable it02:21
ieatlintyeah, don't allow the mfe server to provision your device :P02:24
ieatlintit's a security policy forced onto you02:24
ieatlintthere's a checkbox in the setup page02:24
merlin1991I'm also trying to get the notification twitter feed up and running but unlucky there too02:25
MohammadAGtrade an N950 for an N9?02:25
RST38hnooooo02:26
merlin1991nope, sry mag02:26
MohammadAGdon't hold your breath, I wouldn't have traded anyway :P02:26
RST38hMeanwhile: "Egyptian government has called for all 'honest citizens' to take to the streets and help the army to battle rioting coptic christians"02:27
merlin1991don't want to loose your keyboard, eh?02:27
MohammadAGnah, just the not for sale mark02:27
* RST38h cackles, looks for Cairo webcams.02:27
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* merlin1991 wonders if you can get rss feeds into the notifications view02:29
merlin1991ieatlint: I couldn't find that checkbox :/02:29
* SpeedEvil wonders why adding twitter account isn't working.02:29
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ieatlintmerlin1991: it might only be there when you add the mfe box, and not in the settings once already added02:30
RST38hMghm. Just one webcam there. I do not want to see the pyramids, people, where are the riots?02:30
ieatlintno, it's there02:30
ieatlintin the mfe settings, go to the "Connection settings" page02:30
ieatlintand check "Non-provisionable device"02:30
merlin1991when i check that it automatically unchecks itself02:31
ieatlintuh, i dunno about that02:31
SpeedEvilWwwho was the egyptian in here...02:31
ieatlintit could be that your exchange server requires devices be provisionable02:31
SpeedEvilerr - #maemo02:31
SpeedEvilnvm02:31
RST38hThere has been at least one02:32
ieatlintperhaps try re-adding the server and checking that box in the setup02:32
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, johnwill?02:32
MohammadAGor no, that's not him02:33
merlin1991jep, redoing the account worked02:33
DocScrutinizeroh yeah, without religion(s) our world for sure was a way worse place02:34
RST38hDoc: Less interesting, indeed02:35
ieatlintit's true, it's why atheists are all murderers and religious folk live perfect lives -- religious fear the wrath of their god(s), whereas atheists are basically just sociopaths02:36
RST38hAh, gentlemen, ease up a little02:38
ieatlint:P02:38
RST38hHordes of idiots killing each other in the course of resolving their theological differences are fun02:38
RST38hEspecially if you are not there, and you can find a webcam.02:39
ieatlinti'll kill you for that blasphemous characterization02:39
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artemmaif anybody is following my broken SDK saga, it looks like I fixed it eventually02:44
artemmaexecutive summary: don't try offline installers, they seem to be somehow badly compatible with online updates02:44
* artemma is thinking about trying findutils for GNU find for fxing harmattan packaging again02:49
artemmalast time it started the broken SDK saga, but this time I am more clever, right?02:49
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DocScrutinizerI installed several gnu-tools from fremantle, works just fine03:16
ieatlinti still think hacking your base osx system is a worse idea than modifying a script in the sdk :P03:17
* Venemo sadly says goodbye to his N95003:19
RST38h?03:22
VenemoRST38h, http://kepfeltoltes.hu/110925/20110925_002_www.kepfeltoltes.hu_.jpg03:22
Venemothey promised to send me another one03:22
Venemothis one has serious pixel errors03:22
RST38hOh, that LCD issue...03:22
Venemoyeah.03:23
Venemoand the errors have been growing over time03:23
VenemoI'm currently reflashing the device03:23
ieatlinti think we have an idea of why this wasn't released :P03:25
Venemohm?03:27
ieatlintjust seems like there's been a noticeable number of device failures03:27
Venemo:D03:27
Venemoanyway, I gotta go sleep now03:29
Venemojust loading up my N90003:30
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DocScrutinizerieatlint: absolutely normal for a PV run03:33
VenemoPV=?03:34
DocScrutinizerProduction Valdidation03:35
DocScrutinizer-d03:35
Venemoah03:35
ieatlintperhaps03:35
DocScrutinizerthe few 100..1000s of devices you run thru production line on an afternoon, to optimize yield etc03:36
ieatlintalthough there was an earlier revision of the n950s that were distributed something like 10 months ago03:36
Venemoafter syncing my contacts with da N950, I'm now dealing with all the dupes on the N900...03:38
DocScrutinizerVenemo: there's an app for that, (C) barisione03:40
VenemoDocScrutinizer, Hermes?03:40
VenemoOMG, I forgot it03:41
DocScrutinizererr, don't think so03:41
Venemof*** yea, you told me just in time03:41
Venemowhat app is it then?03:41
DocScrutinizer*sigh*03:41
VenemoDocScrutinizer, tellmetellme03:42
DocScrutinizer51first need to find it03:43
Venemowell, Hermes used to do these kind of stuff for me03:44
DocScrutinizerand as it simply integrates into contacts, there's no app icon - so I need to ask HAM, you know this will take ages03:44
VenemoDocScrutinizer, doesn't DPKG answer you?03:44
DocScrutinizer51dpkg is crap03:48
Venemook03:48
MohammadAGVenemo, contacts-merger afaik03:49
Venemois it smart enough?03:50
DocScrutinizer51Merge your duplicate contacts03:50
VenemoI have some people with the same name who are actually really different people.03:51
DocScrutinizer51look into it03:52
DocScrutinizer51it's smart enough iirc03:52
Venemook03:53
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Venemohm03:55
Venemohard to get used to N900 keyboard again03:55
specialI had a lot of trouble using the n900 screen after the n95003:56
Venemospecial, yeah, screen too03:56
specialand I try to swipe on every phone I pick up now :<03:56
Venemo:D03:56
Venemohmmm03:57
Venemoyeah, nice app03:57
Venemothanks DocScrutinizer & MohammadAG :)03:57
Venemonot very fast though.04:01
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DocScrutinizerbtw why are we discussing this in #harmattan?04:03
Venemomy fault.04:04
Venemosorry04:04
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ScifigIn Qt .pro file is there any environmental variable that gives madde target full path like this --> "/opt/QtSDK/Madde/sysroots/harmattan-nokia-meego-arm-sysroot-1122-slim"?05:49
ScifigI tried $SYSROOT_DIR, didn't work05:50
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iekkumorning07:48
djszapimorning :)07:49
djszapiiekku: are there videos about the openmind talks in Tampere ?07:50
iekkudjszapi, i think all of them should be somewhere, so i have heard07:52
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dm8tbrdjszapi: they are about to be transferred to coss/hermia for processing/publishing08:42
Elleo6/008:43
Elleooops08:43
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djszapidm8tbr: ok, thanks.08:51
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xsachawhat define would suggest meego harmattan in Qt? Q_WS_???09:57
xsachai have seen Q_WS_MAEMO_6 Q_WS_MEEGO Q_WS_HARMATTAN  not sure what's the right one09:58
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djszapixsacha: please see the wikipage.10:23
djszapiand this one: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/guide/html/Developer_Library_Reference_documentation_Porting_applications_to_Harmattan.html10:24
artemmaMEEGO_EDITION_HARMATTAN10:25
artemmaavailable since beta2 if you import correct *.h file (was it qplatformdefs.h?)10:25
djszapi...For C++ code, the new #defines are in qplatformdefs.h (MEEGO_VERSION_MAJOR, MEEGO_VERSION_MINOR, MEEGO_VERSION_PATCH, and MEEGO_EDITION_HARMATTAN). For example:...10:27
djszapi(from the above link)10:27
djszapihttp://www.engadget.com/2011/10/08/us-department-of-homeland-security-developing-system-to-predict/ -> hehe :)10:29
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MohammadAGfucking customs still holding the device10:41
artemmaI am sorry for you MohammadAG10:42
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artemmaeven regardless of the fact that without N9 you cannot buy my app for N9 :)10:42
MohammadAGit's an N950 :p10:43
xsachaweren't the n950's handed out a long time ago?10:43
xsachawhat's customs doing with it? making a customs declaration app?10:44
MohammadAGmine started overheating so I shipped it back for a replacement10:44
xsachaah10:44
djszapixsacha: they are replacing the devices10:44
MohammadAGClearance delay TEL AVIV - ISRAEL 09:0910:44
djszapior they repair it if they can10:44
MohammadAGand another 3 of that ^10:44
artemmaI am from Ukrtaine originally10:45
artemmaonce I was sending a phone from Finland to a friend10:45
artemmadevice spent about a months on the customs10:46
xsachafor some reason, the apps i make can't be uninstalled10:46
artemmaand SD card somehow disappeared in the process :)10:46
djszapixsacha: what is wrong about the uninstallation ?10:46
xsachai compiled someone elses apps and it has the 'x' to uninstall it10:46
artemmaxsacha: they really stick to the customer :)10:46
xsachano 'x' appears10:46
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djszapixsacha: in ovi, or where ?10:48
xsachafrom qt-creator10:48
djszapiphantastic qtcreator again :D10:49
xsachano 'x' when i hold down app in app list10:49
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artemmaxsacha: I had the same with my app for a while10:51
* artemma is trying to recall10:51
artemmasomething was wrong with my deployment10:52
xarcassxsacha: i might be wrong here, but there is a checkbox in qtcreator's project settings like "install to the sysroot" - try it out10:52
artemmabut I can't remember what exactly10:52
xsachait definitely has 'Install to Sysroot' in the run settings10:52
xsachabefore 'Deploy to device'10:53
xarcassxsacha: then try to clear it10:53
xsachaget rid of it?10:53
xarcassjust uncheck10:53
artemmamy similar problems were during times when I was learning qml boosting and somehow not fully correct .desktop file was involved10:54
xsachaso installing to sysroot means it can't be uninstalled?10:54
xarcassI haven't got qtcreator right now, but probably it might help10:54
xarcassand it could be uninstalled, but only by application manager or from the command line10:55
xsachaand somehow, from my experiments, i have managed to get a no name application with no uninstall and a green squircle icon10:55
artemmais your app launchable from the icon?10:56
xsachayeah10:56
artemmaonce I had unlaunchable and undeletable app10:56
xsachathe green one is unlaunchable and undeletable10:56
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xsachaalso with no name and doesn't appear in 'Applications'10:56
artemmamine was deletable from apps, just not from app grid10:57
artemmawell, now I think I remember. My problems were with incorrect .desktop file10:57
xsachamine is just the qt-creator supplied desktop file. not sure what could be wrong. it points to right icon and executable10:58
artemmaso all I can advice is to examine how close is youts to the one created by Qt Creator by default10:58
artemmathen I can't help10:58
xsachaAlso, I tried to install 'NFC Corkboard' from nokia projects website yesterday and it says 'Installation unusable'10:58
xsachait also shows a 0KB update available for the app10:58
xsachai can't remove it or execute it10:58
xsachain apps, it just shows 'Details'.. no uninstall10:59
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JaffaMorning, all11:15
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Anssi138xsacha, is there a .desktop file in installer-extras11:24
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xsachawhat's installer-extras?11:33
xsachabtw, the 'x' finally appeared (by itself) and i uninstalled my app11:34
xsachais there a delay on it?11:34
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Anssi138sounds like it11:37
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artemmaxsacha: what was the reason?11:46
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* artemma finally learned about platformStyle for Symbian components http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt-components-symbian-1.0/qml-style.html11:47
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artemmadoes the same contextProperty exist in Harmattan?11:47
* artemma dreams about framework-supported cross-platform styling11:47
artemmain the past I was just having own settings file for each platform11:48
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xsachaHm, i'm trying to convert a symbian app in to a harmattan app. It all seemed pretty automatic. But, the app doesn't launch11:53
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xsachano errors or anything. Last thing it says is "Meego Graphics System starting"11:54
artemmaxsacha: For my first porting attempt I found it easier to create a new project for harmattan11:54
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artemmauses same qml and even most of cpp files, I just don't need to care about careful .pro/.dekstop/etc corrections11:55
xsachahm, i have the same project file for symbian, windows, linux, playbook. Would like it to all be in same project as it's easier to update them all11:55
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artemmamy current project uses same .pro file for Symbian, Harmattan and dekstop - it is dfinitely possible11:55
artemmaHarmattan wizard will just give you easier start with platform specific boilerplate11:56
artemmaonce you make it work, you can merge the projects step by step11:56
xsachawell when i added platform (Harmattan) it added several files for me11:56
xsachabut yeah I'll try that11:56
artemmaxsacha: when did you start? Pre 1.1.3 SDK Harmattan wizard was way worse than the latest one11:57
xsachajust when i got my N9.. two days ago11:57
xsachausing 1.1.311:57
artemmawell, anyway give new project a try. My feelings tell me that Harmattan has the least stable Qt Creator support from all the platforms, so it's better to satisfy it first11:58
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xsachawell i have started new projects and got them working perfectly already, so I know that'll work. thx :)11:58
xsachaTried to make an NFC app that read my transit card because I noticed it unlocks Angry Birds11:59
xsachathe phone tells me it's a MIFARE card, its UID and that it has NDEF messages available. I try to read them and get an error "cannot read NDEF messages"12:00
artemmaAngry Birds as an innovation driver - good :)12:00
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xsachaP.S. In 'Ovi Store', if you have any N900 apps in your download history, it lets you download them on the N912:03
artemmafunny12:03
artemmaI wonder if any of them works without an aegis manifest12:03
djszapiofc they do12:04
djszapiand it is not funny, it is actually good :)12:04
artemmawhy?12:04
artemmathey they do?12:04
djszapiofc12:04
artemmashouldn't aegis stop them?12:04
djszapihave you seen the community repository ?12:04
artemmanope12:04
djszapiwe have almost 300 packages without any aegis files.12:04
xsachai downloaded an n900 app from 2009 and it worked12:05
artemmawow, I thought nothing can be started unless there's manifest for it12:05
xsachano squircle icon though12:05
djszapiartemma: everybody makes mistakes ;)12:05
xsachait runs in landscape and works fine. and swipe to close :)12:05
djszapixsacha: the icon issue might be because the desktop file have fremantle entries.12:06
djszapihas*12:06
artemmahome-rzr-harmattan?12:06
djszapihttps://build.pub.meego.com/project/show?project=home%3Arzr%3Aharmattan12:07
artemmaI still can't understand why so super-secure aegist doesn't prevent binaries from execution, but if it works, then it works12:07
artemmainteresting12:08
* artemma is browsing the package list12:08
djszapiyou cannot run binaries on beta2 without a security hole.12:08
artemmaah12:09
xsachaby the way, what prevents an app from using libssh to login as root@localhost and causing mayhem?12:09
artemmathen it may be patched soon..12:09
* xarcass wonders if there is some way to install latest QtSDK for Mac OS12:09
xsachabecause on the consumer device, the root password is still 'rootme'12:09
djszapiartemma: nothing to patch, it does not work by default. Keeping repeating it does not help with accepting, just clear steps to reproduce :)12:09
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artemmadjszapi: does the repository has some sort of most popular packages list?12:10
djszapixsacha: developer is actually more powerful for development than root.12:10
djszapiartemma: ask on #opensuse-buildservice12:10
artemmaxarcass: I just reinstalled Qt SDK for Mac OS X yesterday. Works well, just don't even think about offline installer. Start with the online one12:10
xarcassartemma: have tried both with the same result12:11
xarcassError during installation process (com.nokia.ndk.tools.desktop.474.gcc):12:11
xarcassError while relocating Qt: Can't start process install_name_tool.12:11
artemmaxarcass: I had lots of headache with it yesterday, but I thought it's peculiarties of my system12:11
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artemmaxarcass: do you have xcode installed?12:12
xarcassartemma: i'm developing for the iphone!12:12
artemmahave you already had some previous QtSDK?12:12
artemmawhat I did in the end I uninstalled old QtSDK remainings completely, rebooted just in case and started online installer. worked12:13
artemmaxcode 3.2.612:13
artemmanot 4.x for sure12:13
xarcassno, it's new imac, completely virgin12:13
xarcassxcode 3.2.612:13
xarcasswell, I haven't tried to reboot after uninstalling. let's see if this works12:15
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xarcassartemma: which macos version do you have?12:16
artemma10.6.812:16
artemmalatest snow leopard12:17
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xsachabtw, is it possible to compile on device?12:18
djszapiyes12:19
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xsachawhere do i get gcc / g++ from?12:23
djszapiNokia repository12:24
djszapihttp://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/g/gcc-4.4/12:24
xsachathx12:24
MohammadAGone question12:24
MohammadAGhow is a compiler compiled?12:25
Stskeepsby another compiler12:25
Stskeepshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bootstrapping_(compilers)12:25
xsachai wonder which compiler produces better code ;)12:26
djszapiMohammadAG: in gcc at least, only the first stage is "tricky", the other steps are sustainable, so those are not a problem.12:26
djszapithey provide better code in different aspects.12:26
djszapibetter binary*12:26
xsacha;)12:26
MohammadAGStskeeps, and how's that compiler compiled? :)12:27
xsachaonce upon a time, someone handcrafted a compiler ;)12:27
djszapiprobably asm12:29
djszapiand that can get back into even lower-level..sounds straight-forward.12:29
xsachai have an OMAP4 device with ssh access.. how feasible would it be for it to cross-compile apps for my n9?12:30
xsachafrom that device12:31
MohammadAGnot very much I'd say12:31
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djszapiAho has good books about compilers.12:32
xsachaif i could get qt-creator on my omap4 device, i wouldn't need a laptop :P12:33
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alterego520 GBP from expansys for N9 16G13:00
alteregow.t.f13:00
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Stskeepshow much did n900 cost?13:00
JaffaFFS. Should be that much for a 64GB one13:00
alteregoN900 was ~50013:00
alterego(I think)13:01
JaffaThought it was less.13:01
alteregoWell, 49913:01
JaffaDunno, didn't buy one13:01
alteregoI got it on contract13:01
alteregoJaffa: did you pre-order from expansys?13:01
Jaffaalterego: Think so; haven't got an email about it yet13:01
xarcasshere in russia price for N9 64GB is less than it was for N90013:02
JaffaProbably did 64GB, though.13:02
alteregoWell, still says pre-order, the price is interesting.13:02
alteregoNo price for that yet :/13:02
JaffaN950 has shown I can't live with 16GB yet13:02
Jaffaxarcass: How much? Fancy setting up an export business?13:02
alteregoI'm guessing 650-700 GBP13:02
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JaffaWhich is pretty pricey. Twice what I paid for a 32GB iPad 213:02
alteregoYer ..13:02
xarcassone moment, have to use calculator13:02
Jaffaxarcass: Google is your friend13:03
xarcassabout $80013:03
Arkenoitalked to Nokia guys on n9 launch event, they told me new firmware aka PR1.1 is on the way (wonder why it is 1.1 if previous one was called beta)13:03
xarcassJaffa: thanks, that's what i've used :)13:03
alteregoThat's about the same price as the 16G version from expansys13:04
alterego:/13:04
alteregoA little less in fact (via google) maybe with postage we can bring it up ;)13:04
Jaffaalterego: Expansys has always been fairly pricey.13:05
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alteregoyeah13:05
Jaffaplay.com only have 16GB black in catalogue, and no price yet13:06
alteregoOh, m'kay, was just checking13:06
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Jaffaalterego: http://www.kingofgadgets.co.uk/products/nokia-n9-64gb-blue-sim-free-unlocked-mobile-phone.html lists 698.99gbp :-O13:07
Jaffaalterego: ...for 64GB13:07
alteregoYeah, was expecting that :S13:08
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Arkenoiis it possible to activate developer mode on n9?13:17
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w00tyup13:18
alteregow00t: how much is 64G model where you are? And  would you be willing to do an export business ;)13:19
w00talterego: a lot more than it is there13:19
alteregoMore than 700 quid?13:19
w00tprobably13:20
w00tI'm looking13:20
fralsrecommended price is 699€13:20
merlin1991N9 64gb is ~680€ here13:20
w00thmm... telenor aren't listing 64gb n9, or any other than black n9 atm, I guess they got really badly bogged down in preorders :P13:20
w00tunconfirmed 28/10, lol, yeah13:21
alteregoHmm, how much for the 16G black?13:21
alteregoUnlike Jaffa I'm not too fussed about 64G ;)13:21
w00tdepends on the deal - see http://nettbutikk.telenor.no//Mobiles-N9TELENOR.NOB.aspx13:21
alteregoI don't have as much pron13:21
w00tthey're simlocked, though13:21
w00tI'm not sure who has them here un-simlocked or when they deliver13:21
alteregoOh .. I need simfree :)13:21
fralsthe nokia store in oslo (i guess?) seels them sim free afaik13:21
fralsquite sure telenor got exclusive except for 1 nokia store in .no13:22
alteregoProbably work out cheaper flying to Finland and buying one :P13:22
w00tfrals: no, thiago ordered his from someone else and they apparently got stock ~recently13:22
fralsfrom .no?13:22
w00tso i guess it's just carrier exclusive, not like, complete sales exclusive13:22
w00tyeah13:22
fralspretty sure its suppose to be sales exclusive13:23
fralsw00t: which company did he buy from? ;o13:23
w00ti don't remember ;(13:23
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MohammadAGthe N9 has an iPhone style charger o_O14:10
alteregoI don't even know what that means ...14:10
MohammadAGyou plug the USB cable into an adapter14:11
Stskeepsah14:11
Stskeepsclever14:11
JaffaMohammadAG: You got one?14:11
MohammadAGwhich explains why the N950 only had a USB cable14:11
* Jaffa has seen a few Nokia N9 MicroSD cards "to get the most of your N9" advertised (whilst looking for N9s to buy in the UK)14:11
Jaffa*cough*14:11
MohammadAGJaffa, no, just saw one online14:12
MohammadAG(the adapter thingy)14:12
MohammadAGsomeone said there's a girl with an N9 in some uni14:12
MohammadAGkinda doubt it, but he said the screen had a weird curve which kinda convinced me14:12
* artemma can't make SyncFW-based event feed example work. Anybody knows about working SyncFW code (also known as Buteo-something)?14:13
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alteregoI've seen those before iPhone :P14:13
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MohammadAGalterego, probably not as ugly as the N9's though http://www.letsgodigital.org/images/artikelen/109/nokia-n9-charger.jpg14:14
Stskeepsuhh..14:14
Stskeeps:P14:14
StskeepsUK design?14:15
MohammadAGall of them are like that :p14:15
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fralshm14:17
fralsthe one i saw looked better since it didnt have the retarded UK plug14:17
merlin1991N9 headphonesm suck, they are too big for my ears :/14:19
merlin1991MohammadAG: nope mine is round not a triangle14:20
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MohammadAGmerlin1991, I hate non in ear phones14:21
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w00tthe one I have doesn't look like that14:25
w00t(non-UK)14:25
* xarcass tries desperately to remember what his charger looks like14:27
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* jreznik has nokia bh-905i, happy with these headphones, already lost one, another ones...14:36
MohammadAGI need new headphones14:37
MohammadAGinterested in the 505-look alike with NFC14:37
MohammadAGwhich I can't find anything about on Nokia's site...14:39
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merlin1991The bh 111 looks quite good14:48
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djszapi~seen wazd15:00
infobotwazd <~wazd@188.123.241.176> was last seen on IRC in channel #harmattan, 10d 4h 18m 25s ago, saying: 'heya'.15:00
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djszapiN9faenil o/15:19
faenilhi djszapi :)15:20
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: what's wrong with a nice USB standard charger wallwart with a F-A-receptacle?15:24
leinirre that charger being all waah-ugly, have any of you ever seen the HTC one?! Seriously, this one's beautiful in comparison :P15:29
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* DocScrutinizer politely frowns on NFC for headsets - wants a headset that can keep pairing to multiple devices, ideally even can connect to multiple devices concurrently (of course not play audio concurrently, but maybe automatic (de-)muxing)15:35
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DocScrutinizer-> headset plays A2DP MP3 from iPod-type mp3player, switches to simple headset profile and phone for master when a call comes in15:37
RST38hWhy do you even need multiple devices?15:37
DocScrutinizerwhy not?15:38
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RST38hExtra weight to carry in plastic and chips15:39
RST38hExtra hassle to charge 'em all15:39
DocScrutinizerit's highly boring and awkward to pair the primary (aka premium) headset to PC for a 20min $RANDOM_GAMING, then pair to home stereo for listening to a CD, then pair to phone when leaving home15:39
RST38htrue15:40
DocScrutinizerI assume yu're not playing WoW and CDs on your phone?15:40
RST38hNah15:40
RST38hI consider WoW a mental disease and do not have any CDs15:41
DocScrutinizerwell, same here :-P - nevertheless15:41
RST38hBut yea, desktop and home stereo system are valid cases for that15:41
RST38hNot sure how NFC helps here though, I would expect bt headphones that pair to multiple devices and mix streams15:42
DocScrutinizerswapping phone you use is another (highly) valid usecase15:42
* jreznik has everything @home somehow bt connected - even to my sony tv stand with digital media port a bluetooth adapter (it's nearly impossible to buy it because it was replaced by ipod cradle, shit)15:42
DocScrutinizernah, NFC isn't about any audio transmission. It's simply streamlining pairing a little bit15:43
jreznikwow, my app survived test in real env., hope to submit it to ovi today :) (it's czech only one, feeding data from national bank)15:44
DocScrutinizer(swapping phone) buzzword N950/N90015:44
DocScrutinizerbuzzword business vs private phone15:44
jreznikyep, NFS is really only about pairing, I don't see a big problem to push one button instead of touching it but it's nice usecase of nfc, so why not15:45
DocScrutinizerhell, I know several dudes that carry more than one phone on them15:45
DocScrutinizernone of them is using a headset, guess why!15:45
merlin1991Atm I do too :D15:45
jreznikwhat I saw - sometimes it's tricky to use nfc to this, cause you have to touch in right spot and not milimeter behind15:45
jreznikDocScrutinizer: why none of them?15:46
DocScrutinizerbecause they feel they look silly with a mono headset for each ear, so they could talk to private phone on left ear and business on right ear ;-D15:47
KaadlajkNokia BH-904 headset can pair with 2 devices15:48
DocScrutinizerreally??? WOW15:48
Kaadlajkyeah just found that out actually :P15:48
DocScrutinizeralso connect to 2 devices concurrently?15:48
KaadlajkDocScrutinizer: no idea15:48
Kaadlajkgoogle might tell you15:49
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KaadlajkI just use that headset on test setup because it can pair without human interaction15:49
jreznikone thing I hate - is quick pair button on bh-905i to latest device - to connect to different device, I have to turn off bt on tha latest device (to not pair automatically) and then connect to new one15:52
Kaadlajkreading BH-904 instructions gives me the impression it can be connected to 2 devices at the same time15:59
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melle_Hi all, just received an N9, I'd like to create a connection over SSH could anyone point me in the right direction (or resource)? Already switched to dev mode.16:06
SpeedEvilReboot, go back into the dev-mode switch thing, and install all the packages under it16:07
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melle_SpeedEvil: which one in particular? all?16:08
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merlin1991melle_: enablib dev mode is enough16:30
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merlin1991In the app menu you should have a sdk connectopn app16:31
melle_merlin1991: thx for the reply, it must be some network config thin then ;)16:31
melle_merlin1991: yeah, found it, pinging the phone doens't work either... so i guess devmode isn't my problem...16:31
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merlin1991Run the sdk app (it shows you the ip too)16:32
merlin1991Also as long as you don't have the app running you can't ssh into device unless you have a key deployed16:33
melle_merlin1991: no luck... :(16:33
DocScrutinizerssh -o StrictHostKeyChecking=no -o UserKnownHostsFile=/dev/null -l root <IP_of_N9_in_your_WLAN_network>16:33
DocScrutinizerpassword: rootme16:34
merlin1991Try over usb that should be pretty straight forward16:34
Venemo_webchatso. my N950 is going on its final road today.16:34
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merlin1991Also doc I can't connect as root to my n916:35
melle_DocScrutinizer: thx, error: no route to host... hence, i think its something with the network... N900 works fine though... weird16:35
DocScrutinizerhmm, I don't have any N9, so can only talk for N950 with devel-mode enabled16:36
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merlin1991i did however deploy the pub key on the developer user and can use devel-su from there to get root16:36
DocScrutinizerI'm pretty sure I haven't installed or explicitly started anything to make that work16:36
melle_hmm.. its weird, `ps ax | grep ssh` shows a running sshd16:37
DocScrutinizerwell, I deployed the public_key to ~root/.ssh/16:37
DocScrutinizermelle_: that's what I thought16:37
melle_I guess i'll have to look for the settings of the sshd16:38
melle_but then again, why doesn't ping work?16:38
DocScrutinizerno way16:38
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~/Documents/N900/maemo5.0-flashing/images> ping bp16:39
DocScrutinizerPING burning-platform (192.168.1.49) 56(84) bytes of data.16:39
DocScrutinizer64 bytes from burning-platform (192.168.1.49): icmp_seq=1 ttl=64 time=47.7 ms16:39
DocScrutinizer64 bytes from burning-platform (192.168.1.49): icmp_seq=2 ttl=64 time=69.7 ms16:39
Anssi138heh16:39
melle_yeah, with my N900 both ssh and ping works fine...16:39
Anssi138whut burning platform pongs...16:40
melle_;)16:40
DocScrutinizerjr@halley:~/Documents/N900/maemo5.0-flashing/images> grep bp /etc/hosts16:40
DocScrutinizer192.168.1.49    burning-platform bp16:40
DocScrutinizerassigned fixed IP to N950 MAC in my router16:41
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DocScrutinizerall this works with OOTB N95016:43
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melle_grr... local firewall.. fixed!16:44
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: that's way to straight forward with macbound ip + hosts file, it should be a local dns server wich is tied to the dhcp and therefore adjusts the entries himself ;)16:44
DocScrutinizerI don't like the quality of my router's local DNS server, so I tied a fixed IP to the MAC in router's local DHCP server16:45
DocScrutinizeras all my boxes don't use the router's DNS relay16:46
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DocScrutinizer(some of those router DNS proxies get slow as molasses over time, introducing delays in the rnage of seconds to each DNS query)16:47
DocScrutinizeralso way too many of my gadgets don't provide a proper hostname to DHCP server in router, and usually you can't assign an arbitrary name in router's DHCP server config16:49
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xsachais there any video call clients (over any protocol) currently available for harmattan?16:51
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MohammadAGdamn customs still haven't released my device17:06
djszapiN9Venemo_webchat ping17:07
DocScrutinizerxsacha: SIP17:08
DocScrutinizerafaik17:08
xsachawhich app?17:08
djszapiN9it would be nice to have more servers available, but if not, adding a "logout" functionality would be nice17:08
DocScrutinizerdialer app17:08
xsachaoh ok17:08
djszapiN9Venemo_webchat, ^17:08
Venemo_webchatdjszapiN9: pong17:12
Venemo_webchatdjszapiN9: yeah, planned feature :)17:12
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merlin1991Epic german translation for the add bockmark option in the browser on the n917:16
merlin1991"programmen hinzufügen"17:16
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juergbimerlin1991: you're sure that you're not mixing this up with "add to home screen"?17:29
juergbiwhich is meant for web apps17:29
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merlin1991Could be that too, it simply means nothing in german :)17:31
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juergbidefinitely not the best imaginable translation ;)17:35
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pinheiro_guys silly question but I just started to try to port my desktop qml apps to harmattan n950 were do I find specific documentation exaple removing the statusbar or toolbar?17:39
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alteregopinheiro_: http://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/docs/library/html/qt-components/qt-components-meego-pagestackwindow.html?tab=017:58
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pinheiro_alterego: http://pastebin.com/GyV6NDir ???18:02
alteregoI think you're after toolBar, statusBar is the top bar with signal strength etc.18:03
alteregoshowToolBar:faalse18:03
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pinheiro_haaaaaaaaa geting somware alterego :)18:04
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GeneralAntillesΩ18:25
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DocScrutinizeromega?18:29
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, that's what I get when I miss Cmd-V (to paste /clear since Adium doesn't have a backlog limit) and hit Opt-V instead.18:34
DocScrutinizer:-D18:35
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DocScrutinizerno backlog limit? nice! easy DoS attack vector18:36
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fluxwhat is the n9 sim form factor? also, is there some cutting template around?19:01
fluxI heard there is a way to cut the sim so that it fits both 'old' phones as well as n9, any such templates around?19:01
xsachaflux: microsim19:02
xsachasame as iPhone 419:02
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xsachathe template stuff would be same as iPhone 4 too19:03
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fluxI guess that would make it slip in non-microsim devices?19:04
fluxperhaps there's no avoiding :)19:05
flux(except buying an adapter)19:06
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xsachaall future nokia phones will be using microsim too19:06
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Corsachmhm, not sure it's the right chan for that, but any tip on how to get an n9 on countries where it's not offered? (expansys has the 16G for 600€, anything else with maybe better price?)19:11
xsachaebay? :)19:12
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Corsac(and expansys is only pre-order, not sure any store already has it anyway)19:13
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xsachaall the stores in my country have it. you live in US I guess?19:21
leinirxsacha: there's i think 14 countries in the world where it's been generally released... australia happens to be one of the few lucky ones19:22
Corsacxsacha: France19:23
xsachacan't you hop across the border and get it in a nearby country? lucky being in europe..19:23
Corsacwell, apparently CH and BE have / should have it at one point19:24
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xsacha64GB is in short supply here. many stores sold out of the bigger model19:24
Corsachere beeing .au?19:25
xsachayeah19:25
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zx2c4iptables v1.4.8: can't initialize iptables table `nat': Table does not exist (do you need to insmod?)19:33
zx2c4any ideas?19:33
rayyenzx2c4, not compiled into kernel probably19:34
zx2c4right. where can I find that module?19:34
zx2c4or do I have to download the kernel sources and compile it myself (iiiiiiii realllllllllyyyyyyyy dooooooonnnnnnnnntttttttt want to do this)19:34
zx2c4is there a package in the tree that supplies ipt_MASQUERADE or the like19:35
rayyenis it even possible to recompile kernel? Doesnt aegis stop such things?19:35
zx2c4i'd have to do it in scratchbox and then import the module19:35
zx2c4okay so i guess you don't know if a module exists. thanks for your help anyway19:35
rayyenzx2c4, are you sure its even possible?19:37
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merlin1991can somebody explain me why root can't mess with users /home but developer can write to /home/user/MyDocs?19:39
merlin1991WTF?19:39
SpeedEvilmydocs is on vfa19:40
SpeedEvilt19:40
SpeedEvilit doesn't know about users19:41
merlin1991true, but there's even a link from /home/developer/MyDocs to /home/user/MyDocs19:42
merlin1991and I still don't understand why root can't mess with users dirs19:42
rayyenblame aegis19:42
merlin1991mfe acts weird too19:44
merlin1991on account creation it syncs about 4 mails and then dies, after that it always has an error when I try to refresh19:44
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kgutteridgeHi, trying to update a harmattan device using the one click flasher and getting the following error "ERROR: Failed to erase MMC using 'secure' method"20:11
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kgutteridgeif any one has any pointers, it would be much appreciated!20:11
melle_Hi all, did anyone managed to get gmail to work with the N9?20:12
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djszapiIs there a Harmattan logo ?20:19
alteregoHeh. If anything it'd be swipe logo20:20
fralsmelle_: it should work fine, what step are you failing on?20:27
melle_frals: the actual logging in :)20:27
fralsmelle_: and how do you set it up? as exchange account or gmail plugin or generic email?20:27
melle_when i click the mail button, it asks for a u/p, but the login fails..20:27
melle_the gmail plugin, but trying the IMAP mail settings now20:28
melle_frals: generic IMAP works great... weird...20:28
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fralsmelle_: theres a thread for email feedback on talk.maemo.org from the people whos been doing the email+email accounts stuff20:29
fralsmelle_: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7848020:30
melle_frals: thanks, i'll check it out20:31
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rayyenanyone gotten into test mode? Get the test splash screen but then it powers off.20:39
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Stskeeps.. test mode?20:40
rayyenye, its possible to boot into test mode, ncu and update20:45
rayyenbut when the usb is connected it just says NOKIA and probably the build and then TEST.. but not booting into anything20:45
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rayyendisconnecting the usb makes it turn off20:47
Stskeepssounds like something you'd need a jig for20:48
fralsrayyen: and why do you want to get into 'test mode'?20:49
rayyenheh, well I dont know.. just exploring.20:50
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djszapiCould someone please share the canberra packages with me ? The SDK seems to be properly broken20:52
rayyenfrals, all I want is to be able to bypass aegis.20:52
djszapihttp://harmattan-dev.nokia.com/pool/harmattan-beta/free/libc/libcanberra/ -> as in there are no binaries available. Could one upload those debian packages to a file sharing service and paste the link, please ?20:52
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* djszapi dislikes the continously broken SDK20:59
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gridjszapi, The scratchbox one?21:02
djszapigri: packages are broken all the time, source is available, the binary is not21:02
djszapithis canberra stuff is something I reported to them about 40-50 days ago.21:03
djszapiseems it is hard to fix it :)21:03
grior they don't care :)21:03
djszapithat is even worse ...21:03
djszapinobody for downloading libcanberra by using the package manager ? :)21:11
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rayyenis it possible to reflash the n9?21:25
djszapiif you can get an image, why would it not be ?21:26
MohammadAGdjszapi, well if you don't have a device :P21:28
MohammadAGin other news, Clearance delay TEL AVIV - ISRAEL 16:521:28
djszapibah, the SDK has 0.12 version and even the old debian uses 0.2821:29
griso "never touch a running system" may have applied? :)21:31
djszapiwhat ?21:31
grinothing21:32
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DocScrutinizerrayyen: I suggest you inspect the initscripts etc to learn about test et al modes21:59
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DocScrutinizerless "+/test modes" /sbin/preinit22:05
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spenapis anyone familiar with mixing meegotouch and qml?22:21
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rayyenDocScrutinizer, hm, thanks.22:48
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Anssi138how can i ls open files of a process? with aegis22:50
Anssi138oops worked np22:52
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grispenap, Not really - mixed it once for testing: embedded qml item on a meegotouch page but didn't look good22:54
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spenapgri, I was trying to show a MSheet from a QML application22:55
spenapbeing that MSheet provided by a MeeGoTouch app22:56
spenaphowever, it complains that the MComponentData is not yet created (that gets instantiated when the MApplication is created, in a typical meegotouch app)22:56
griyou can also use MApplication for qml apps, that should be no problem22:57
spenapyes, I tried that22:57
spenapbut then it complained22:57
spenapthat I should use a MWindow22:57
spenapI mean:22:58
spenapI use appear(MApplication::instance()->activeWindow()) on the MSheet22:58
griyou could create a MApplicationWindow and load your qml by hand and add it to the scene (never tried)22:58
griinstead of a QDeclarativeView22:58
spenapahm22:58
spenapthat makes sense, right. Although I'm not sure about how I should do it :P22:59
spenapis there any documentation on that topic?22:59
griI assume not22:59
gribut if it works, I would be interested on that since I also need it (have reparenting problems with contact picker)23:00
spenapbut the contact picker is using a service interface, so you don't really need the meegotouch thing, right?23:00
grithe contact picker is opened via dbus and a parent window23:01
gribut it's also meegotouch and I assume it needs the component data of my window, otherwise it starts going crazy23:01
spenapyes, it makes sense23:02
grithis was also the case with accountsetup uis23:02
spenapdo you know of any existing QML app having that close interaction with meegotouch ones?23:02
spenap(to tell if it's possible or just very difficult)23:02
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griNo, but I also didn't see many applications23:03
spenapI meant system ones23:03
spenapcan you go from facebook/twitter/music/ovi client23:03
spenapto any other meegotouch apps?23:03
grisystem ones are either qml or meegotouch - but not a mix23:03
spenaphmm23:05
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spenapgri, http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.meego.touch.devel/11023:08
spenapthis seems interesting23:08
grispenap, I read this once but didn't remember it :)23:09
* gri create bookmark23:09
spenap:P23:09
gricreates*23:09
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spenapzz_gri, it almost worked23:19
spenapif you combine it with http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qtbinding.html#loading-qml-components-from-c23:20
spenapbut there are issues23:20
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maheshk_hey all. how do i update new firmware on my N9? I couldn't find a way to do it on windows 723:43
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