IRC log of #europython for Saturday, 2009-04-18

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lacHi there!14:50
Tartleyhello!14:50
lacsee that we lost 2 tutorials?14:51
TartleyI don't think I did see that - I'm just sitting down at a keyboard for the first time in a while14:51
lacHolger withdrew his.14:52
Tartleyah, I see.14:52
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Tartleyyes, come to think of it, I did notice that when I was pasting IRC logs14:52
lacThank you for that, by the way14:52
TartleyDoes he just have too much stuff on?14:52
Tartleyn.p. needed to get done14:52
lacNo, he has decided that he wants to change his focus into making videos14:53
lacbeaues he thinks that a tutorial would attract maybe 10 people14:53
lacand a video is for the whole world.14:53
Tartleyahar, I see. Well good luck to him with that14:53
lacI don't know, but perhaps PyCON USA has changed his mind about videos.14:53
Tartleyright - the timely processing of videos seems to have had a big impact14:54
lacyes, though I don't see how giving a tutorial and then videotaping it would change things.14:54
TartleyI was watching Bob wossname's 'drop acid' a day or two ago14:54
lac???14:54
Tartleyone of the pycon talks14:54
lacah14:54
Tartleyabout those newfangled schemaless database thingies14:54
lacyes,14:55
lacmaybe we should look into it.14:55
Tartleyah, as in getting videos of EP up14:55
Tartleyright14:55
Tartleythat is a good thought. I volunteered to help out with AV stuff, I imagined that would be babysitting gear and checking sound levels14:56
lacNo Holger, as far as I know, wants to make a bunch of videos about 'holger explains X' for a large number of Xs14:56
lacthat Holger wants to teach about.14:56
TartleyAh, I seeeeee!14:56
lacso far EP hasn't produced somebody who lives and dies for video the way that Carl-I-forget-his-lastname is.14:57
Tartleyi see. I don't know anything about it. :-(14:58
lacme either.14:58
lacAt any rate, I am game for finishing the talks, but if you want to read mail for a bit, I am ok with that too.14:58
lacI won't be going any further than my kitchen for a while.14:58
lacmy back! my shoulders! :)14:59
Tartleylet's get these one's done, then we know we're up to date14:59
Tartleyones14:59
lacOk14:59
lacsoooo15:00
lac#startmeeting15:00
lacPRESENT15:00
TartleyPRESENT15:00
Tartleywhere are we15:01
Tartleyoh yes15:01
TartleyTOPIC Exploring the Django ecosystem15:01
* lac nods15:01
Tartleymr willison!15:01
lache gives good talks.15:02
Tartleyindeed.15:02
lacSo we should accept this, and book the largest room for this.15:02
lacbecause I think lots of people will be interested.15:02
Tartleyquite15:03
lacAt any rate, I am amazed at how popular Django is15:03
lacIf it weren't Willison himself, I would suggest expanding things more to give more interest, but I think we will get15:04
TartleyYes. splendid all round. So I don't have any constructive critisism,  - right, impeccable credentials carries the day.15:04
lacMAXINTEREST from Django developers in any event ...15:04
Tartleyalright, well lets just accept then! hooray.15:05
lacyou take it or me?15:06
TartleyI'd be delighted to take it15:06
Tartleyhe only lives up the road15:06
lacok then, its yours15:06
TartleyDECISION Accept Exploring the Django ecosystem, assign to tartley15:07
TartleyTOPIC Web Frameworks and Jython15:07
lacThis seems like another well written abstract.15:08
Tartleyright15:09
Tartleyindeed15:09
lacso I say we should just accept it as stands.15:10
lacI don't have any suggestions for improving it.15:10
TartleyI think that sounds great15:10
Tartleyme neither15:10
Tartleyalright then.15:10
lacI can take it, to make the numbers more even if you like.15:11
Tartleysorry to dilly-dally, I was trying to update my 'tallies' count15:11
lacits ok.15:12
Tartleywhat the heck i got an error can't spot it, forget the tallies count15:12
Tartleywe just need to split these up. right15:12
Tartleyyeah15:12
TartleyAlright lets just alternate, unless we want to make exceptions15:13
TartleyCan I toss this one to you?15:13
TartleyDECISION Accept Exploring the Django ecosystem, assign to lac15:14
Tartleyha ha!15:14
TartleyTOPIC It ain't broke; lets fix it!15:14
lacThis topic came up in the TIP mailing list.15:15
lacso I think Robert Collins really wants to give this talk ...15:15
Tartleysounds like it15:15
Tartleyand I for one would love to hear it15:16
Tartleyi use unittest myself, and am not oblivious to its weaknesses, but think it is basically sound15:16
lacHave you ever tried using py.test or nose?15:16
Tartleyonly nose, briefly, and was surprised by how easy it was to get started15:17
Tartleylooked very promising15:17
lacI think if you use it for a while you will find unittest terribly clunky15:17
Tartleywell alright. I'll make an effort then. :-)15:17
lacwell, if you use unittest at work, then it may make work less pleasant than it is now, so be careful. :)15:18
Tartleyright.15:18
lacbut just the ability to do:15:18
lacassert 'whatever I want'15:18
lacinstead of finding a way to turn that into something being equal or not equal to something else15:19
lacI think makes for much more readable tests, and makes writing them faster as well.15:19
TartleyI don't get it. I have an 'assertTrue', is that different that what you're thinking of?15:19
Tartleythan15:19
lacyes15:19
lacassert b is 1215:19
lacassert b == 1215:20
Tartleyboth those expressions are 'True', aren't they?15:20
lacassert b > 5715:20
Tartleyall those would work with my 'assertTrue', as far as i can see15:20
lacyes, its not a matter of they cannot work15:21
lacits a matter of how easy it is to write.15:21
Tartleyalthough, on reflection, I don't know if assertTrue is on unittest, or my custom derived TestCase15:21
TartleyI mean they would be written just the same15:21
Tartleybut with s/assert/assertTrue15:21
Tartleyanyhow, um. are we getting distracted? :-)15:22
lacI think this is a custom addon you have, at any rate I don't recall writing code for this for the py.test15:22
Tartleyit must be then.15:22
lacconverter15:22
lacand yes we are getting distracted.15:22
Tartleyfair enough.15:22
lacSo, accept the talk, bring peanuts15:22
Tartleyalright. ;-)15:22
TartleyAh. Do we need to suggest the title includes unittest?15:23
Tartleyunittest ain't broke;Let's fix it!15:23
Tartley?15:23
lacGood idea15:23
Tartleyalright15:24
TartleyDECISION Accept It ain't broke; Let's fix it! Assign to tartley, suggest title includes 'unittest'15:24
TartleyTOPIC Introduction to PyObjC15:25
Tartleyah. I know Orestis too15:25
lacshuld be popular topic -- indeed this is shaping up to be a very popular EP15:25
TartleyQuite. I for one am very excited.15:26
lacI suggest that he add something about his expectations for the audience15:26
lacwhat do they need to know?15:26
TartleySounds very reasonable.15:26
TartleyHe is an engaging chap, won the 'best lightning talk' at last year's PyCon UK15:27
lacaha!15:27
laceven better!15:27
Tartleyabout his 'PySmell', for inferring types by 'duck inferencing' for use in intellisense modules for Vim, and other editors15:28
Tartleyanyhow, with your suggestion that sounds great15:28
Tartleyaccept!15:28
Tartleyding!15:28
lacyou want to take this one? or are you way ahead now?15:28
TartleyI can take it, I see him often15:29
lacok15:29
TartleyDECISION Accept Introduction to PyObjC, assign to tartley, suggest he clarifies expectations for the audience knowledge15:29
TartleyTOPIC Python, .NET and the weather15:30
TartleyI don't know what a weather derivative trading system15:30
Tartleyis it a trading system (ie finance?)15:30
Tartleyor a weather thing?15:30
lacme either, let us see if Google knows, I think the first by what he wrote15:30
Tartleycelcius pro.com is about the weather, and how it impacts *your* bottom line15:31
Tartleylooks like weather insurance for companies or somesuch15:31
lacyes15:31
Tartleyok15:31
lacamazing15:32
Tartleywell, we can ask him to clarify that15:32
Tartleyisn't it?15:32
lacsomebody wants to ensure for Japans Golden Week ...15:32
lacwe need to clarify who should be at this talk15:33
lacanybody who uses .NET or is thinking of doing so?15:33
lacWeather insurance professionals?15:33
Tartleyright, as in presumably there will not be many weather people15:33
Tartleyright15:33
lacHow big a room should he get? we cannot tell.15:33
TartleyI'm considering changing 'specialties when considering' into 'special considerations'15:34
TartleyI'll maybe just suggest that change to him15:34
Tartleywhen he says 'practical limits of the systems used', which systems does he mean? Of IronPython, .NEt, etc?15:35
Tartleywhich is interesting15:35
Tartleybut maybe he means limits of something else15:36
Tartleyso maybe clarify that15:36
lacI think we have to ask him15:36
Tartleyyes15:36
lacand architectures perhaps needs to be architecture15:36
Tartleyagreed15:36
Tartleyok. With those changes are we happy?15:37
lacyes, though I think we are now to the point of suggesting a rewrite of the abstract15:38
Tartleyright. I see. Yes, we have touched on practically every sentence.15:38
TartleyWell. What options do we have, other than calling it a 'provisional acceptance' ?15:39
lacI think that is what we have.15:41
TartleyOK then.15:41
lacplease make these changes because we want to accept your talk.15:41
Tartleyok then.15:42
lacAnd while we are at it15:42
lacThe title makes it very much seem as if the talk is for weather traders15:43
lacso15:43
lacIntegration of IronPython, .NET and C#15:43
lacwith examples from the Weather Trading system15:43
TartleyRight. He also mentions they use 'pure' Python15:43
lacmay be a better title for the talk.15:44
lacdepending on what he wants to talk about.15:44
Tartleymaybe just change the 'of' into a 'with' in your suggrestion15:44
* lac nods15:44
Tartleyright I like the direction of your title change very much15:44
lacor 'Integrating'15:44
Tartleyit strikes more directly to the heart of the audience who would be interested in this15:44
lacand no preposition altogether15:45
Tartleyright, good15:45
lacI think so15:45
Tartleyalright, sounds much better15:45
Tartleyalright. Tragically, I think it's your turn.15:46
TartleySorry to dump it on you. :-)15:46
Tartleyalright then, should I 'decision' that?15:47
lacIts mine, that is ok15:47
TartleyDECISION Seek discussed clarifications from Patrick, assign to lac. Not formally accepted yet.15:48
lacand make sure you paste all that we said into the talk section15:48
Tartleydid that15:48
Tartleythanks15:48
lacno, thank you!15:49
lacThe next one will be a fair bit of work, too15:50
Tartleyexcellent15:50
TartleyTOPIC Psyco V2 - Generators Welcome!15:51
TartleyRight. Sounds like lots of ground to cover in this talk15:51
TartleyBut interesting, fun stuff.15:51
TartleyDo you know the speaker?15:51
TartleyI don't. I'm too out of the loop.15:51
lacHe is a good friend.15:52
Tartleywell alright then15:52
lacAnd he has gone from being a totally horrible speaker, whom nobody can understand15:52
lacto one that some people understand15:52
lacwhat I don't know is what is different between this talk and the one he gave at PyCON UK 2 years ago.15:53
lacor maybe it was EP last year15:53
lacthe description needs to be scrapped15:53
TartleyRight. I can't parse it.15:54
lacAnd it needs to say 'changes in psyco since July 2008' or something15:54
TartleyOK, yes, that would be reassuring with regard to the previous talk you mention15:55
lacpsyco also only runs on 386 architecture.15:56
lacwhich probably should be mentioned for those who do not know psyco15:56
lacI think the whole abstract needs some polishing.  I can do it.15:59
lacbut it will take a lot of time to discuss it here.15:59
Tartleyright. The abstract seems good in general, but (as you just said) needs polish here and there.15:59
lacSince I am quite familiar with Psyco and the politics of LLC15:59
TartleyIt isn't clear what in the abstract is background, and what is enumeration of talk content16:00
lacor whatever they are called now16:00
lacyes16:00
lacI think that I know, though.16:00
lacand the background is what should be in the description.16:00
Tartleymaybe reinforce the description/abstract split we have mentioned before16:00
Tartleyright!16:00
lacAnd what this is, I think, is a release announcement for pyscov216:01
Tartleyis that out already, or forthcoming?16:01
lacNot sure16:01
lacits not listed on armin's home page, at any rate16:01
lacI think its not out yet.  Armin was quite annoyed about that, and wanted things out16:01
lacbut he also doesn't want to have to support more psyco stuff since his plan is to replace the lot16:02
lacwith pypy16:02
Tartleyi see. I don't find v2 anywhere obvious16:02
Tartleyalright then16:02
Tartleywith the above caveats, are we happy to call this an accept?16:03
Tartleyor do we want to label it provisional16:03
TartleyI guess, to be fair, we should label it provisional16:03
Tartleyit possibly isn't fair on conference attendees to accepti it unconditionally in its current state16:04
Tartleyalthough i have confidence that isn't reflective of the talk content16:04
Tartleywe have to do due dilligence and provide attendees with best info we can16:04
lacok.16:04
Tartleyalright then16:05
lacChris a a friend, so I don't want people to think that I accepted junk just because he is my friend,16:05
lacand I think that when i rework the abstract it will look better.16:05
lacbut assign it to me.16:05
lacChristian gets touchy at the oddest times.16:05
TartleyDECISION Conditional acceptance of 'Psyco V2 - Generators Welcome!', assign to lac, conditional on coaxing discussed clarifications and improvements to description and abstract16:06
Tartleythanlks16:06
TartleyTOPIC Software Apprenticeship16:07
lacsounds great to me16:07
lacthough we need to put a lid on accepting new talks16:07
Tartleyyes16:08
Tartleyah16:08
lacelse the conference is too full.16:08
Tartleywe have 'enough'?16:08
TartleyI see.16:08
lacBut I think that this one will be very good to have16:08
Tartleywell, what's left, and humdinger-must-haves16:08
Tartley?16:08
lacwhat I wish we had was a way to say 'how many minutes do we have'16:08
lacSo I would accept this one provisionally on 'do we have room'16:08
lacwhich I think we had better discuss on tuesday16:09
Tartleyok16:09
TartleyIt does sound like a good topic though, one that could have broad appeal across many ateendees16:09
lacyes, my onky question is 'are the apprentices coming too'?16:10
lacHope so,16:10
Tartleythat would be great!16:10
lacI'd like to hear their perspectives as well.16:10
Tartleyas part of their apprenticeship! Great all over.16:10
lacand if they are broke, well, we do have some discretionary funds.16:10
lachave to discuss this with others, but ....16:10
Tartleyright16:11
Tartleyvery cool.16:11
Tartleyok then16:11
Tartleydo we need any more detail inthe abstract? I don't *think* so16:11
lacI don't think so either.16:11
TartleyI think it perfectly advertises what will go on in the talk, even though it is scant on detail16:11
Tartleynobody can feel it was misrepresented16:11
Tartleyalright then16:11
Tartleyis it my turn?16:12
lacI think so16:12
lacyou may still be ahead, but Patrick and Chris are extra work16:12
TartleyYeah, was thinking as much16:12
TartleyDECISION accept 'Software Apprenticeship' provided we can confirm we have space at the conference, assign to tartley, ask if apprentices will be present!16:13
Tartleyso, um, I've put it in as 'proofread', until we confirm space. Is that right?16:14
lacyes16:14
TartleyTOPIC Persistent Objects with ZODB16:15
Tartleya tutorial16:15
Tartleyso not subject to space constraints as yet?16:15
lacno, this is fine.16:15
lacThe problem is that it is way, way, way too short for a tutorial16:15
lacwho should attend?16:16
Tartleyyou mean it doesn't have much content in it?16:16
Tartleyoh!16:16
Tartleyyou mean the submission isn't descriptive enough16:16
Tartleyyes16:16
lacyes, no content at all16:16
Tartleyright16:16
Tartleyagreed16:16
lacwhat experience is required16:16
lacand then exactly what sort of app are you developing?16:16
Tartleywhat OS will be supported16:16
laceverythoing16:16
Tartleyis it hands-on, or lecture-like16:16
lacare people to work in groups or alone or just listen16:17
lacwhat will they come home with16:17
lacan app? some knowledge? compete knowledge of how to use the ZODB?16:18
Tartleydoes ZODB need expanding?16:18
lacyes it does16:18
lacand 'to persist its model objects' is very German16:18
lacI am not sure how that should be rewritten16:19
Tartleymaybe just skip the 'its'. ...to persist model object. Seems fine to me.16:19
Tartleyobjects16:19
lacAlso what are the advantages and disadvantages of using a) a ODB b) the ZODB vs some other ones out there16:20
Tartleyvs simply pickling?16:20
lacthat too.16:20
Tartleyright, to entice people in who don't yet realise that they are interested in ZODB16:21
TartleyI see16:21
Tartleyok16:21
TartleyWell, I've had all the easy ones, shall I take this?16:21
lacSo we send this one back with the 'please expand on your tutorial'16:21
lacok, then16:21
Tartleyright16:22
TartleyDECISION Expansion needed on Persistant Objects with ZODB before we could accept, assign to tartley16:22
TartleyDid we have a submission deadline? Has it passed already?16:23
lacoh yes, it ended the Sunday before Easter16:24
Tartleythe submission form still looks active16:24
lacBut John went and asked some people -- Simon Willison in particular -- to please submit some things16:24
lacit still is.16:25
lacon tuesday we shall discuss this16:25
Tartleyok then, not an oversight. Alright, thanks16:25
Tartleythanks16:25
TartleyTOPIC RjDj + Python = Reality morph for the iPhone16:25
lacI added 'for the Iphone'16:25
lacI think this may be a interesting technical talk, in that breaking out of the iPhone should be something all iPhone owners16:27
lacwant to do.16:27
lacon the other hand terms like 'reality morphing' and 'reality enhancing' give me the willies.16:27
lacI like my reality un-enhanced, I suspect.16:28
Tartleydefinitely sounds like lots of cool things going on in this talk.16:28
Tartleyhar har16:28
lacBut it would be nice to hear what their music sounds like.16:28
Tartleyyes it would16:28
lacwonder if we can get a sample up on the site?16:29
lacor if you need an iPhone.16:29
Tartleythat's a great idea16:29
Tartleyno doubt he can whip one up p.d.q.16:29
lacsounds like that, more than anything else, will convince people if the talk is for them or not.16:30
lacand if they hate it, well, he prbably doesn't want them in the audience anyway16:30
Tartleyseems likely. Alright, we'll ask him about that16:30
TartleySo this is another provisional based on confirming we have space?16:30
lacyes16:30
TartleyWould it be useful if I came to the tuesday meeting armed with stats about the number of minutes we are currently using?16:31
TartleyI think so.16:31
lacsince he submitted that yesterday night, he shouldn't object16:31
lacIt would be very useful16:31
Tartleyok, fair enough.16:31
Tartleyalright, will do16:31
Tartleyalright.16:32
TartleyI think this one's yours, should be simple16:32
Tartleyenoughj16:32
Tartley:-)16:32
lacyes indeed.16:32
TartleyThe title is about 45 chars16:33
TartleyiPhone reality morph16:33
Tartleycuts 8 chars16:33
lacyes but I suspect they want their product name in the title16:34
Tartleyok16:34
TartleyDECISION Provisionally accept 'RjDj + Python = Reality morph for the iPhone', conditional on having space for it, assign to lac, suggest getting an audio sample online to promote the talk16:34
lacwe have to think about these long ones, but we can bring this up on tuesday too.16:34
lacI don't want to truncate more than we have to and we need imput from the schedule form makers16:35
Tartleyrighty16:36
Tartleypresumably we're in a state now were we could start to run the data through the schedule generator just to check on how things like that come out?16:36
lac#endmeeting16:37
Tartleywell remembered!16:37
Tartleyyou're good at this.16:37
Tartley:-)16:37
lacthat's what I think, too.16:37
Tartleyalright.16:37
lacOk, from something that you said on the talks mailing list it sounded like you were volunteering to write to all the speakers.16:37
Tartleyoh!16:37
Tartleyah!16:37
TartleyI think that wasn't what I menat.16:38
Tartleymeant16:38
lacyou were only volunteering to paste in from irc meetings for all the talks, correct16:38
Tartleyheh16:38
Tartleyyes16:38
lacyou might want to clarify that.16:38
Tartleyok, thanks!16:38
lacand thank you for doing this.16:38
Tartleynp, thank you for everything too.16:38
lacOk, my plan is to go lie down for a bit and then write a message for every talk16:39
lacand then write a python program to grab it and the standard reply16:39
Tartleyas in, write the email with each submittors specific feedback in it?16:39
lacand stuff it out to them16:39
Tartleyahar, I see16:39
Tartleyok16:39
lacjust checking that you haven't already written one16:39
Tartleyyes, I was planning on something similar16:39
TartleyNope, only the standard email template I posted already16:39
lacOk, I am going to work on the specialised responses first.16:40
lacbut after a bit of a lie.down16:40
Tartleyalright then16:40
lacmy poor back doesn't like any chair today16:40
Tartleymy wife has similar problem from time to time, even on her lovely aeron. I think she likes to sit cross-legged really16:41
lacok, then, take care and pleasure working with you as always16:41
Tartleyalrighty, indeeed. Have a pleasant lie down and I look forward to chatting again Tuesday, unless anything comes up16:41
Tartleythanks Laura!16:41
lacmy problem is that yesterday was the first kayaking day of the season16:41
lac(for me at any rate)16:41
Tartleyoh of course!16:41
lacso this is the joy of unused muscles getting a workout16:42
Tartleyright. We resumed jogging round the park this week too, so that's made me achey16:42
lacbut the kayaking was great.16:42
Tartleywould prefer kayaking!16:42
laccome visit!16:42
Tartleyreminds me of when i lived in colorado, that was very outdoorsy!16:42
lacwell, we have 2 guest rooms, so you and your wife are welcome at any time.16:43
Tartleyvisiting would be lovely - we're always talking about making more of our current residence in europe. My wife is american and we  both feel we have a lot of travelling left in us yet, so could end up elsewhere at some point.16:43
Tartleyheh, that's lovely of you, thanks very much.16:43
lacI hope you take us up on it.16:44
Tartleyme too!16:44
lacwe can achedule talks against each other and go kayaking. sounds great to me.16:44
Tartleyheh! Sounds supegreat! I'll chat to susan about the idea! Thanks heaps Laura!16:45
lacyou are in London, correct?16:45
Tartleyyes, and obviously our hospitality is extended if ever you're over here too! We don't have a guest room at the moment thogh! But will do again in future.16:45
lacryan air flies cheaply from stanstead to göteborg ....16:45
Tartleyright16:45
lacat any rate, you take care.16:46
Tartleyyou too! Bye for now!16:46
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Masood1980hello22:33
lac hello Masood198022:39
Masood1980hi lac22:40
Masood1980how are you?22:40
lacI went kayaking for the first time this season yesterday.  Now I am sore.22:41
Masood1980oh i see22:41
lacbut otherwise, pretty good.22:41
Masood1980good for you22:42
Masood1980i have never tried tthis dvanture22:42
Masood1980wana talk in private lac?22:44
lacno, I'm working22:44
Masood1980oh i see22:45
Masood1980good luck22:45
lacthank you22:45
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