IRC log of #europython for Wednesday, 2009-04-15

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Tartleylac: hello hello, sorry I'm a little late, just got home21:40
lachi there21:57
lacdo you have time this evening for more talk approving?21:57
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lacback22:05
Tartleyhi lac22:05
Tartleyhow you doing?>22:05
lacbetter than last night, at any rate22:07
Tartleyglad to hear it22:07
Tartleyyou ready to rock and roll. I'm just opening all my windows.22:07
TartleyIs there an easy way to bind a command to reopen windows and documents in a previously stored configuration22:08
Tartleyalright22:08
lacare you using firefox?22:08
Tartleywe always forget to do an endmeeting22:08
lacoh dear.22:08
TartleyI am I guess. Can save all tabs, huh? Nice idea. I have a zillion others open too though. may have to rethink my workflow on that.22:08
lacare you using ubiquity?22:09
Tartleyi am not, i don't even know what it is22:10
lacaha.  I hve just started using it.22:10
lacIt is a new thing from Mozilla Labs -- Aza Jono and Atul, basically22:11
lachttps://wiki.mozilla.org/Labs/Ubiquity/Latest_Ubiquity_User_Tutorial22:11
lacsee22:11
Tartleythanks, I'll read all about it after22:11
lacI think that it has what you are looking for.22:11
Tartleybut for now, we're at:22:12
lacBut I am not sure yet since I am only half way through the tutorial today22:12
Tartleylac2222:12
Tartleytartley2122:12
Tartleyqwright & pinner422:12
Tartleyqwright222:12
Tartleypinner422:12
Tartleymoreati122:12
Tartleyshould we do22:12
Tartley#endmeeting22:12
Tartley#startmeeting22:12
Tartley?22:12
lacI think so22:12
TartleyPRESENT22:12
lacPRESENT22:12
TartleyI believe we just finished search with python and xapian?22:12
TartleyI have it noted down as taken by you?22:13
Tartleyoh no, we also did zen of web, accepted by me22:13
Tartleyso, Byte Coat?22:13
TartleyTOPIC 57Compiling Python with Byte Coat22:13
lacI've never heard of this before22:15
lacmy big question is 'who wants this for what?*22:15
lacis this code obsfuscation? or ....22:16
Tartleyme neither, sounds interesting, but I think it is obfustication, yes. Which turns me off, but that's just my biases, it's clearly a topic that's important to some people22:16
lacok, I think we can accept this one even though it runs against both of our biases22:17
Tartleyif this work reveals things that might be applicable to the compilation-for-performance crowd too, then so much the better22:17
Tartleyyes22:17
lacbut maybe we should ask what is the intended use case?22:17
TartleyI'm lagging a little, so I'll take it unless  you're crazy to. Fair point, I'll ask him to clarify that22:18
lacok22:18
lacand that great lag is one talk, I think :)22:18
TartleyDECISION: Accept 57Compiling Python with Byte Coat, assign to tartley, ask him to clarify intended use cases22:18
lacterrific22:18
TartleyTOPIC PLY and PyParsing22:19
lacI am biased about that one, as Andrew did that work while he was living at my house.  or some of it at any rate.22:19
lacso I think it is neat stuff.22:19
Tartleycertainly, it's a perennially interesting and useful topic22:20
Tartleygreat stuff22:20
lacI understand it perfectly, so I don't think it needs any changes to the abstract.  And Andrew knows how long the talk takes22:21
lacdo you see any way to improve it?22:21
Tartleyalright, that seems just fine to me. No I think it makes it very clear what the content of the talk will be, and what attendees will ge tout of it.22:21
Tartleywoulld you like to take it then, since you know Andrew?22:22
laccertainly.22:22
TartleyDECISION Accept PLY and PyParsing, assign to lac, no amendments needed.22:22
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TartleyTOPIC Automated testing with Python22:23
lacHi Thomas22:23
lacThis is a tutorial.  Holger has given it before and knows what he is doing.22:23
lacI think many people would like to take it.22:23
Tartleyyes indeed. testing is good.22:24
lac:)22:24
Tartleyalright, if you know Holger and he knows his stuff, then I think we can accept this as it is?22:25
TartleyShall I take this one? Or do you want it if you know him?22:25
lacDoesn't matter to me, but I do talk to him regularly.22:25
Tartleyok then, I'll toss it to you.22:26
lacthank you.22:26
TartleyDECISION Accept Automated testing with Python, assign to lac, no amendments needed.22:26
TartleyTOPIC Python Foundation Class22:27
Tartleyahar! another Pinner entry!22:27
laccan we find a way to improve this one?22:27
lacyes, expand it more.22:28
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Tartleyyou think that for a full day, the content in the abstract could be more fleshed out?22:29
Tartleythat's not unreasonable22:29
Tartleycan we simply toss over the wall by assigning to john himself again then?22:30
lacWhat I mostly think is that it is not clear how much python you need to already know before this tutorial will not teach you much new22:30
lacI think so, yes22:30
Tartleythat seems sensible. Could a complete newbie manage?22:30
Tartleyalright22:30
lacthats one end, and could somebody who knows Java very well, but python not, be ok with this?22:31
lacvs somebody for whom programming is a pretty new thing altogether?22:31
lacWhat about that Lithuanian guy who is moving from php -- I suspect he should attend this, but its not clear from what John has written22:32
CMooneyI'm a complete newbie with Python, send it my way and I'll give you my opinion!22:32
TartleyDECISION: Accept Python Foundation Class, assign to JohnP in his absence, suggest abstract includes more detail about what is covered, and prerequisite knowledge for attendees - could a Jave expert with no Python keep up? How about a complete programming newbie?22:32
CMooneyApologies, Didn't realise I've dropped into the middle of a meeting.22:33
Tartleythat's ok22:33
Tartleyhi! how you doing?22:33
Tartley:-)22:33
lacCMooney: no problem.22:33
CMooneyNot too bad.22:33
CMooneyTrying to procrastinate from other important things. IRC is good for that.22:33
Tartleytopic Advanced automated testing22:34
TartleyTOPIC Advanced automated testing22:34
Tartleyah22:34
Tartleyso this is the second of two22:35
lacyes22:35
Tartleythe first half day tutorial is next22:35
lacI've changed the title22:35
lacno, 62 is a talk22:36
Tartleysorry, I meant te first half is no 5922:36
lacthis is the tutorial, first is 5922:36
Tartleyright22:36
* lac nods happily22:36
Tartleygot it now22:36
Tartleyshould we rename 59 to 'with py.test', instead of 'with Python'22:37
Tartleyto make it clearer that are associated tutorials about the same thing22:37
Tartleyoh22:37
lacyes22:37
Tartleymaybe not though, 59 seems to be a little broader than just py.test22:38
lacI just changed it.22:38
Tartleywell. maybe it would be ok. I think 59 is 'using py.test to run - oh. ok.22:38
Tartley:-)22:38
lacI think that the first tutorial would work fine with nose as well22:39
lacbut the second one won't22:39
lacBut I say accept them all, and assign them to me.22:40
Tartleyseems fair enough. fixing a minor doublespace issue on 61, in description22:40
lacIt is hard for me to see how clear the proposals are, since I use py,test all the time, so of course it sounds clear to me22:41
lacwhat do you think?22:41
TartleyI've never touched py.test, and they sound fine to me. (although I do a lot of testing using plain old unittest)22:41
lacok, assign them to me then and I will talk to npk22:42
lacer hpk22:42
lac(npk is Näset PaddlarKlubb -- the kayak club.  I talk to them a lot, too. :) )22:43
Tartleyok. and 62 too?22:43
lacor at least think of them a lot.22:43
lacyes please.22:43
Tartleyhey, how did that go then? have fun the other day?22:43
TartleyDECISION Accept all of Holger's testing talks and tutorials, assign to lac, no specific improvements required22:45
lacincluding 6322:45
TartleyTOPIC distributed programming, easy.22:45
Tartleyah22:45
lacwhere I changed the title?22:45
lacand I think needs some work?22:45
Tartleyok. I marked 63 as accepted by you22:46
Tartleybut for the record, the abstract needs work?22:46
lacyes22:46
lacwhat is py.execnet and who can use it22:47
lacthis is not py.test specific, but hpk doesn't make that clear22:47
lacand you can use it for deploying pretty much anything, but that is not clear as well22:47
Tartleyok, I didn't know it was related to py.test. I think for someone who doesn't know about py.test there is no reason to think they are related22:48
lacah.  well up until last week you had to dl py.test to get it, so lots of people think that.22:48
Tartleyalright fair enough22:48
Tartleyand the title, is the 'easy' some sort of pun or reference to something? If not, I'd like to change that.22:49
Tartleyif only 'made easy'22:49
Tartleybut maybe could mention py.execnet in the title22:50
Tartleyor abstract22:50
Tartleyalright, I'll paste this into the review comments, and we can move on22:50
TartleyDECISION, accept distributed programming, easy, assign to lac, with discussed minor improvements to abstract, desc, title.22:50
TartleyTOPIC First class JavaScript testing22:51
lacI have to withdraw from voting on this one.  Clearly I think it is very, very, very cool22:52
Tartleyah, you do, I haven't spotted the connection, sorry I'm not very in the know.22:53
lacand we're going to open source it some time in May, after our release is done.22:53
Tartley?22:53
lacSo I think that Samuele should explain things a bit more22:53
Tartleyalright, fair enough.22:54
lacIts not clear, I think, what makes this different from what already exists.  Why we wrote this thing.22:54
lacIt may turn out to be more useful than our app, actually.22:54
lacand assuming you vote it in, you can assign it to me for sure.22:55
Tartleyok then. It certainly sounds like a talk on a great topic by someone who knows all about it, so yes it's voted in (hooray!)22:55
Tartleyand I'm happy to you with your insight that it could be better explained - although the explination as it stands seems pretty good to me22:56
Tartleypresumably client side javascript will only increase in usage, so this will become more imortant going fwd22:56
Tartleyalrighgt22:57
lacOk.22:57
TartleyDECISION Accept First class JavaScript testing, assign to lac, she has some ideas for improving the abstract22:57
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TartleyTOPIC A better Python for the JVM22:57
lacThis should be a great talk, did you see the PyCON USA version?22:59
Tartleyhe's given it before at PyCon - in your mind presumably that's a big plus because it means even if we didn't know the submittor and the project, then its reassurance that he's planned and timed and practiced the talk already22:59
TartleyI did not22:59
Tartleyand obviously, we do know the project and submittor, so that reassurance isn't neccesary, but I'm just looking for insight into your process23:00
Tartley:-)23:00
Tartleyalroight23:00
Tartleysounds like a simple win then23:00
TartleyI'll take a few to balance us up again23:00
TartleyDECISION Accept A better Python for the JVM, assign to tartley, no fixes reqd.23:01
lacits is a plus and a minus.23:02
TartleyTOPIC PyPy - complete and fast23:02
lacon the plus side, yes, we can even see it at a blip.tv thing23:02
lacand see that the talk is good.23:02
lacon the minus, well, we can already see it on blip tv so who needs to see it again?23:03
Tartleyright. fair enough. makes sense, thanks23:03
lacexcept that this work is progressing at a rapid clip23:03
lacso it won't be the same talk23:03
lacit can feature 'what we did this spring'.23:03
lacThis is one of the problems of PyCON.23:03
lacThey badly want very polished talks.23:04
lacwhich means that for many of us the talks are by definition not all that interesting to us because23:04
lacif its been around long enough to be polished, either we already know it, or we don't care.23:04
lacits all a matter of which audience you are catering for.23:05
Tartleyright. gotcha23:05
lacbut EP is more the 'bleedging edge developers' crowd.23:05
TartleyI guess with several tracks going on, even someone who's totally in the loop will always have several options for what to see, so you must tend to err on the side of being glad of well-rehearsed talks23:06
lacWhile PyCON gets a lot of 'we want extremely reliable well established practices and code'23:06
lacfor our corporate hires whom we are sending here to learn things.23:06
Tartleyright. now you're making me SUPER excited for EP23:07
lac:)23:07
Tartleyalright, well the abstract is very clear and detailed23:07
TartleyI don't have anything to suggest, I think this will be brilliant23:08
lacMe too.23:08
Tartleyexcellent23:08
TartleyDECISION Accept PyPy - complete and fast. Assign to tartley, no fixes reqd.23:08
lacAssuming what fijal and armin are doing now with integration of the JIT really produces the fast code.23:09
lacbut they swear it is doing so now .... :)23:09
Tartleyright. It's so promising-sounding, obviously everyone hopes it all turns out well.23:09
TartleyI can't even begin to imagine how much those guys must all know about interpretters and JITS, with all the work they've done on that project over the years23:10
TartleyTOPIC Tapping into the Web of Data23:10
lacArmin is coming to live in Göteborg for a few months after the Spring that is happening in Leysin now.23:11
lacHe is fantastically terrific company.  I will be so glad to get to see him regularly.23:11
lacanother semantic web thing, to pair with Nicolas23:11
Tartleyha! no doubt. I have only met some of the pypy guys a handful of times, but they are a brilliant bunch, in evey sense.23:13
TartleyI don't *think* I know Armin.23:13
TartleyAlright23:13
Tartleyum23:13
lacWell, make sure I introduce you at EP then.23:14
Tartleyexcellent! thanks!23:14
TartleyWell, talk 67 sounds great.23:14
TartleyI don't spot any oversights23:14
Tartleyseems very sensibly described23:15
TartleyI saw we accept it23:15
Tartley:-)23:15
lacme too.23:15
Tartleys/saw/say23:15
TartleyDECISION: Accept Tapping into the Web of Data, assign to tartley, no fixes reqd23:15
TartleyTOPIC Castles in the Cloud23:16
laclooks like a real good talk to me.  and should be very popular.23:17
Tartleyyes indeed, I am salivating over it23:17
TartleyAlright, accept? Hooray!23:18
lacyes.23:18
TartleyDECISION Accept Castles in the Cloud, assign to tartley, no fixes reqd.23:18
lac:)23:18
TartleyI was waiting over the ENTER key23:18
Tartley:-)23:18
TartleyTOPIC Ctypes Tips & Techniques23:19
Tartleyoooh23:19
TartleyI've been wrestling with ctypes a bunch for the first time lately23:19
Tartleyintruiging23:19
Tartleylots I don't know about it23:19
lacWe used it for PyPy so we found out lots of odd things about it.  Some of our unit tests are very bizarre. :)23:20
Tartleyheh23:20
Tartleyno doubt.23:21
Tartleymy colleague William wrestles with it for IronClad (IronPython to libraries with C-extensions)23:21
Tartleyand I've paired with him on that, but had to kinda shoulder surf over parts of it23:21
Tartleyalright23:22
Tartleywell the talk sounds ace, I'm happy to accept. You have any constructive comments about it?23:22
lacI was getting my dinner.  let me read it again,23:22
Tartleyno problem23:22
lacno, I think it is fine as it stands23:23
Tartleyexcellent23:23
TartleyDECISION Accept Ctypes Tips & Techniques, assign to tartley, no fixes reqd23:23
Tartleywe're at 28 all, on the talks tally, btw23:24
TartleyTOPIC Python MPI23:24
lacwhat is MPI?23:24
Tartleyneeds to expand MPI23:25
Tartleyha23:25
lacmulti processing?23:25
TartleyMessage Passing Interface23:25
Tartley?23:25
Tartleygoogle says23:25
lacaha.23:25
Tartleyso interprocess communication?23:25
lacsays to me too23:25
Tartleyright, so it needs more clarity on what mpi is and who you would want to use it23:26
Tartleys/who/why23:27
* lac nods23:27
Tartleyfair enouhg23:27
lacJust a sentence.  The talk aparantly goes into this in detail23:27
Tartleyotherwise sounds like a worthy topic and would be great.23:27
Tartleyexcellent23:27
lacbut we needs something so people can find out if they belong in the talk.23:27
Tartleyright23:27
lacs/in/at/23:28
Tartleyalright23:28
Tartleywell, shall I take it?23:28
Tartleyotherwise we accept?23:28
lacyes, and for you since you got his other one.23:28
TartleyDECISION Accept Python MPI, assign to tartley, clarification about what MPI and why you would use it needed23:29
TartleyData Processing with MDP23:30
TartleyTOPIC Data Processing with MDP23:30
lacsame comment as the last one.  We need the abstract something that will tell people who have never heard of MDP whether they should be in this talk or not.23:31
lacs/in/at/23:31
Tartleyfair enough23:31
lacwow, that is twice.23:31
Tartleyheh.23:31
Tartleyalright, but with that minor caveat this sounds like a great talk, I'm all for accepting it all over23:32
lacindeed. :)23:32
TartleyOh, whose? Your turn?23:32
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lacmine I believe23:33
TartleyDECISON Accept Data Processing with MDP, assign to LAC, minor clarification about what MDP is and why one would use it23:33
TartleyTOPIC The MOAI Server23:33
lacI am all for taking out the first paragraph of the abstract and calling that the description23:34
TartleySounds good. Is it missing an expansion of MOAI itself?23:34
lacyes, if it is an acronym, which it probably is.23:35
TartleyAlright, it needs that, and I just fixed 'facilities'23:36
lac:)23:36
Tartleywe need to answer his question about adding a second presenter.23:37
lacyes, tomorrow when john makes it easier?23:37
TartleyI wonder if there is any way to slant the description to make the appeal broader23:37
Tartleyit focusses (rightly) on the library metadata application at hand.23:38
TartleyWhich is good - to be specific23:38
TartleyBut Is there any mileage in describing this as an example of something more broad23:38
laclibrary metatdats really is a world in itself.  Sometimes, often even, the protocals that librarians have are23:38
lacbetter than the ones that programmers invent.23:39
lacso maybe that is worth asking.23:39
Tartleyheh23:39
lacprotocols23:39
Tartleyheh, alright.23:39
lacJacob used to work for the Royal Library and still is the Swedish expert on library standards.  I will ask him when we23:39
Tartleymaybe he could include some note along those lines, to entice people in who aren't even library people23:39
lacare done wiht this.23:39
Tartleyalrighty23:40
Tartleywith those comments I vote to accept23:40
lacsee what he says.23:40
lacme too.23:40
lacand you can leave it with me, which means I am only one behind now, I think.23:40
TartleyDECISION Accept The MOAI Server, assign to lac, minor description tweaks as discussed.23:41
TartleyTOPIC Lipstick on a Pig23:41
lacLove the title.23:42
Tartleywow. I'm amazed by the project23:43
lacme too.23:43
Tartleysort of real-world messy problem that would send me running23:43
lacI hope they were well paid for it.23:43
Tartleyheh23:44
lacyou get him since you got his ZPT talks as well, ok?23:45
Tartleyalright, no quibbles from me, I'm happy to accept23:45
lactalk23:45
TartleyI ifixed a few capitalisation issues23:45
Tartleyall good23:46
Tartleythanks for keeping track of that23:46
TartleyDECISION Accept Lipstick on a Pig, assign to tartley, no fixes reqd23:46
TartleyTOPIC 74Loving old versions of Python.23:47
lacseems straightforward23:47
lacgood match for talk #7723:47
Tartleyyes indeed. Does he need to clarify what some of the benefits are, above the single word 'compatability'23:49
Tartley?23:49
lacprobably a good idea.23:49
TartleyI wonder if a  brief sentence about that might hook more people who otherwise think 'why would i care?23:49
* lac agrees23:50
Tartleyok23:50
Tartleyothewise brilliant23:50
lacI can take this one.  I think you are ahead23:50
Tartleylet's get it on the acceptance train23:50
Tartleyi think we're even, by my spready23:50
Tartleybut ok23:50
Tartley:-)23:50
lacand you're the spreadsheet expert company, :)23:50
TartleyDECISION Accept Loving old versions of Python, assign to lac, ask for brief sentence describing what the benefits are.23:51
Tartleyheh, yes, supposed to be23:51
Tartleything about that is23:51
Tartleywe set out to be not spreadsheet like - make something which lets you make mathematical models without all the snafus that spreadsheets introduce23:51
Tartleya mathematica for finance, if you will23:51
Tartleybut you stick something  in front of finance people, they want it to look like a spreadsheet23:52
Tartleyohdear23:52
Tartleyso we've grudgingly converged23:52
lacI saw a sudoku program written as a spreadsheet once.23:53
lacamazing thing.23:53
lacbut you wonder if the guy who wrote it wouldn't have been happier taking a month to learn python instead ....23:53
Tartleyha! my boss giles made one in resolver! Not such a co-incidence, I guess me and my colleagues have made a lot of spreadsheets over the last couple of years23:53
lacquite understandable.23:54
TartleyI know this is going to be tantelising, but apparently I'm having dinner made for me (fancy!) and it sounds like it's just about ready23:54
Tartleycan we adjourn?23:54
lacThere are some european governments who are running on spreadsheets that are many decades old.  Nobody understnads them. and everbpdy is terrifed to change them.23:54
lacCertainly.23:55
lacif you tell me what is for dinner23:55
Tartleyohgod, I've seen so many bad spreadys in the private sector, I hadn't even begun to think about govt work23:55
Tartleyahar23:55
Tartleywe're having an omlette with veggies in it, because it was quick'n'easy23:55
Tartleysmells DELICIOUS23:55
Tartleybecause we23:55
Tartleywe're both starving!23:55
lacsounds great, and thank you23:56
TartleyI did some local govt work, but managed to avoid the spreadys by focusing on GIS23:56
Tartleyand thank you too!23:56
lacand remember to end the meeting ,,,,,,23:56
Tartleyalways a pleasure!23:56
Tartleyyay!23:56
Tartley#endmeeting23:56
lacyippee23:56
lactake afe enjoy dinner, we will kill the rest of them tomorrow.23:56
lacer care23:56
Tartleyalright. sounds good, thanks Laura!23:56
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