IRC log of #europython for Tuesday, 2008-07-08

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Tvtoo early for the tiger to open any eyes09:03
* avn waked up by child\09:05
avnbrr - raining09:05
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emilis_info:)09:26
Tvwow the wifi in lambda in pretty weak09:26
Tvinteresting how big a difference there is09:27
emilis_info:)09:30
emilis_infoRevalHotels link is better than conference09:30
emilis_infoat least on my laptop09:30
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Tvdepends on where you are09:47
Tvreval has more area, ep has better signal in the middle09:47
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Tvthis talk has too many Models with pronounced Capital Letters for my taste :(09:51
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* olleolleolle finding lots of cloned code here (neat tool)10:27
olleolleolleFeature I want: "Blame support"10:27
kerniyeah, dvcs integration10:28
olleolleolleso like: Who the heck cloned THAT?10:28
kernideveloper X copied this from developer Y10:28
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kerniI think it's actually quite possible10:37
kernibazaar has these plugins10:37
kerniwhy not write one10:37
kerni"bzr dupes"10:37
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czarnyhi11:28
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xenruhi11:52
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olleolleolleI wonder, is this a named tuple? config=(contrast=20, sharpness=5, color=3)12:34
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Tvbunch of new stuff in the wiki for FilesystemSprint13:43
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Tvsuperman has a fat neck14:30
getxsick;d14:33
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LarstiQ_Tv: all those muscles got to fit somewhere15:01
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kerniLightning talks are my favourite feature on any conference16:37
kerniwhat do you think?16:37
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Tv"some crazy exception"?16:38
Tvmore like we will throw the speaker16:39
Tvand please do not yell into the mike16:39
xorAxAxsome crazy exception sounds like maciej, pypy16:39
xorAxAxTv: is that correct? :)16:40
kerniProjectorDisconnectedError, perhaps16:44
kerniwell, that was pointless, but fun nonetheless16:44
Tvthat was not an error, it was only a warning16:45
kernialso, language barrier16:45
kerniPHP already has remote module loading16:48
Tvremote roothole service16:48
kernirequire('http://whatever')16:49
kerniyep16:49
olleolleolleCool, let's switch!16:49
xorAxAxand third-party-mass-administration hooks16:49
Tv\join #europhp16:49
olleolleollePsychedelic colors.16:49
kerniI even think someone proposed this on pydev16:49
kerniand was promptly shot down for these very reasons16:50
Tvs/down //16:50
kerni:D16:50
olleolleolle<?php $irc->join("#europhp"); ?>16:50
Tvso python can't import _strings_16:50
Tvso you can't use real urls, right?16:50
Tvdo you need a map of name=>url somewhere?16:50
Tvif you do, just use name=>(url, sha-1)16:51
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kerniwell, you can cheat a little16:51
kerniimport http_whatever.org.dir.module16:51
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Tvthat'll never deal with the real web16:51
Tvwithout some silly escape mechanism16:52
olleolleolleIs the joke that all his lines are quotes from famous people? Seriously wondering here.16:52
Tvolleolleolle: not *all* i think16:52
Tvor not *that* famous ;)16:52
olleolleolleA Markov'd presentation!16:52
kernior proof by citation of important people16:52
TvGiven enough bugs, all eyeballs are hollow!16:52
kernia fine academic technique16:53
Tvkerni: well most of the quotes are of the opposite opinion..16:53
Tvmaybe not anymore16:53
Tvbut in the beginning16:53
Tve.g. the famous Linus quote advocates *reading source*16:53
olleolleolle(Long slide texts: after a few you don't read it all: he could've added some wrestling facts without us noticing.)16:54
Tvand *understanding*16:54
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Tvolleolleolle: To Chuck Norris, all bugs are shallow.16:54
kernishort version: "Testing is hard, but do it"16:54
tobixenI read but stop listening if the slide is too long16:54
kernithere16:54
olleolleolle"Programming: still hard"16:54
kerniSun seems to be on a budget16:55
kernididn't give the guy a laptop16:55
olleolleolleIt's *really* tiny,16:55
Tvolleolleolle: and has a proprietary display connector?16:55
Tvoh the good old days16:56
kerniUniversal Sun Bus, perhaps16:56
kerniUSB like everyone else16:56
olleolleolleIt's a kind of reflective dust-like medium that drops down from one's hair . into the field of vision. Super-compact.16:56
Tvolleolleolle: smart dandruff?16:57
kernianyone for a short version?16:57
olleolleolleOpen Source version: Dandruff @ home.16:57
kerni"Sun wants to hear about Python"?16:57
Tvkerni: "Innovation Happens Elsewhere"?16:58
LarstiQTv: tsk :)16:59
kernilet's standardize16:59
kernithree-word or four-word summaries?16:59
Tvoh oh three16:59
Tvi can already do this one16:59
Tv"IMAP is ugly"16:59
olleolleollekerni: IMAP: ugly. Still.16:59
Tvhttp://sixwordscifi.com/16:59
kernihttp://www.fwfr.com/17:00
kerniyeah, you got the concept17:00
kerniand we tried to use the guy's imaplib yesterday17:00
kernididn't work too good17:00
kerninow that it works, it's kinda nice17:01
kernipython's builtin imaplib is somewhat ugler17:01
kerni*uglier17:01
Tvkerni: btw for a nice twisted imap intro, this book was nice (link to my review): http://eagain.net/articles/review-pynet/17:02
olleolleollekerni: "Apply the ugler."17:02
Tvmaybe i should also add that it was nice17:03
kerni"I Know IMAP" ?17:03
Tvdid we summarize the first one already?17:03
olleolleolleSub-lightning notes-taking: popular.17:03
kerniand our three word rule doesn't allow any "I Can Has X" style reviews17:03
Tv"Bad joke. Laugh."17:03
kernioooh, kung-fu17:04
kerniTv: yeah, that's accurate17:05
Tv"Module pd.lib content some simple modules and fucntions. "17:06
Tvoh wow17:06
kernilook, the append calls are all wrong17:06
kerniis that the drunk part?17:07
olleolleollekerni: And he corrects them in a handler, right?17:07
olleolleolleFuzzy as in matching.17:07
kerniwell, it's a new kind of multiple dispatch/overloading17:07
Tv"Drunkin snake kung-uf"17:07
olleolleolleSoundex-for-call support17:07
tobixenevery year there are some "weird pythonish code" stuff on the lightning talks ...17:08
LarstiQTv: -uf :)17:08
kernithe -uf was intentional :)17:08
* LarstiQ nods17:08
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LarstiQand very aptly chosen17:09
Tv"Buy Bazaar support."17:10
kerni"All your Bazaar..."17:11
Tvbazaar is what you use to publish your code on the cathedral that is launchpad17:11
LarstiQhah17:11
kerni"Please Ask Me"?17:12
olleolleolle"Silence. Enjoyed it."17:12
kernitobixen: nothing wrong with that. where else do we get our laughs17:13
kernisummaries?17:15
kerni"PyPy Does Javascript"17:16
kernior make it py.test17:16
Tv"py.test: Still Confusing" ?17:17
Tvreally, it just always seems messy and magic to me, year after year17:17
Tvwhile i'm happily using nose17:17
kerniTv: and do you have an idea how is nose different from py.test? I haven't.17:18
Tvkerni: well py.test is based on more magic17:18
Tvkerni: like assert a==b instead of eq(a, b)17:18
olleolleolleDid he talk about Dommer?17:20
Tvquoting the introduction to py.test: "Note that in order to display helpful analysis of a failing assert statement some magic takes place behind the scenes.  For now, you only need to know that if something looks strange or you suspect a bug in that behind-the-scenes-magic you may turn off the magic by providing the --nomagic option."17:20
kernifor 3 seconds17:20
kerni:O17:20
kerniTv: this sounds like a joke17:21
kernilet me check :)17:21
TvDommer?17:21
Tvkerni: nope17:21
Tvkerni: nose can do that magic too, it's just not default or recommended17:21
Tvbecause it's so hideous and unreliable17:21
kerniyep, right there on the website17:22
kernicool17:23
Tvumm zooming in your code?-o17:23
kerniAST-based math formatting17:23
Tvthis sounds more like writing code by clicking menus17:23
Tvlooks interesting, though17:24
kernisummaries? :)17:24
Tv"This is AST, I know this!" ?17:24
Tvnot three words, i know17:24
Tvbut relevant to the thread!17:24
tobixen"Code Looks Cool"17:25
Tvi always get that reaction from gratuitous zooming and panning17:25
Tv"Reinventing Lisp Machines" ?17:25
Tvthe previous talk, that is17:25
kerninah, too general17:25
kernithere wasn't much lips there17:26
kerni*lisp17:26
Tvso, summary!17:27
kernihmmm17:27
Tv"Submit To Microsoft" ?-)17:27
kerni"Another COM API"17:28
kernibut we're still missing the zoom-on-code summary17:28
kerniwell, "Zoom On Code"? :)17:29
Tv"See The `"17:29
Tv(re guido)17:29
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Tv"Probably Still Leaky"17:30
tobixen:)17:30
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xenruIf you want to check code from my LTalk install it via $ easy_install pd.lib17:31
xenruand get that code to check it http://python.pastebin.com/m79f7a3b317:31
kerni"Cheap-Ass Sandboxing"17:32
Tvok, this one: "Buy Bazaar Support" again?-)17:32
Tvok this one: "Buy. Buy. Buy."17:33
Tv;)17:34
kerni"Give Us Money"?17:34
xenruis there is any online video?17:34
kerninone we know of17:34
Tvxenru: ustream.tv/europython, with luck17:34
Tvmaybe something later perhaps possibly17:34
xenrucool, ty17:34
kernieven using fuzzyobject, you still have to get the parameter names right17:36
tobixenand the number of paranthesis and quotes and so on17:37
tobixennot to forget the indentation ;-)17:37
kerniLogix could help17:37
Tvjust run random mutations until unit tests pass17:37
kernigenetic programming :D17:37
kernieither that, or bang some more on the keys17:38
tobixenwith proper test code and enough number of monkeys banging randomly on the keyboards ...17:38
LarstiQTv: or mutates the tests until they pass.17:39
xenruI know, but I logic doing right even after 2 liter of beer :)17:39
TvLarstiQ: well test-first development means you first mutate tests until they no longer pass, then mutate code until they pass again17:39
LarstiQTv: right17:39
LarstiQTv: have you done anything with fuzzing btw?17:40
TvLarstiQ: mostly network-related17:40
xenrunope, that just a toy17:40
Tvfeeding random packets through a firewall17:40
xenrubut thers is a lot of usefull pices of code in that package17:40
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LarstiQTv: your mocking/fault injection reminded me of that17:41
Tvoh yeah17:41
LarstiQTv: http://libcaca.zoy.org/wiki/zzuf specifically17:41
TvLarstiQ: pick a random seed, decide your injects based on that, generate unit tests for different seeds17:41
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Tvoh huh, i knew of zzuf but had not bookmarked it17:46
TvLarstiQ: thanks for reminding me17:46
LarstiQTv: olka hyvää? :)17:47
TvLarstiQ: ole hyvä17:47
xenruIf you want something ask about FuzzyObject then I point you to author17:47
LarstiQTv: thanks17:47
xenrucray just join this channel17:47
Tvthat man is a hacker17:48
crayHi, all17:49
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crayNo, I am joker, not hacker ^)17:51
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olleolleolleSTMX? SDMX? Name of format?18:42
olleolleollehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDMX18:43
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tobixentv: I've thrown out some more thoughts (not complete, I'm too hungry to write more) on http://europython.org/FilesystemSprint19:41
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tobixenskybar22:34
tobixentoo loud music here, impossible to chat22:35
xorAxAxjust use irc :)22:37
avnhuh, rest of people still drinks?22:39
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Honzatobixen:  but the view is great22:51
TvLarstiQ: http://youtube.com/watch?v=BI3PwBuwgV022:51
Honzaor ask them to tune it down a bit ;)22:52
TvLarstiQ: and the names were: uuden musiikin festivaali, koneisto, dbtl22:52
TvLarstiQ: ack if you saw those or i'll resend later22:53
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