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| jezdez | hi there, the europython wiki seems to have some issues | 13:59 |
|---|---|---|
| jezdez | traceback: http://dpaste.com/hold/50141/ | 14:00 |
| dboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Can you see what the problem is? | 14:04 |
| ThomasWaldmann | moin | 14:30 |
| ThomasWaldmann | wiki works for me (except that someone removed RecentChanges from navi_bar, bad idea IMHO) | 14:31 |
| ThomasWaldmann | ah, "Updates" :P | 14:31 |
| ThomasWaldmann | hmm, never seen that one, but you can try to stop the wiki, remove data/cache/* and start it again | 14:32 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (you = wiki server admin) | 14:32 |
| * dboddie redirects to zeth... | 14:33 | |
| ThomasWaldmann | ah, that helped :) | 14:37 |
| ThomasWaldmann | btw, using 1.6.3 instead 1.5.x would help against the spam pain | 14:37 |
| ThomasWaldmann | broken again :| | 14:38 |
| dboddie | Hmm. | 14:39 |
| ThomasWaldmann | can you please kill all moin processes? | 14:40 |
| ThomasWaldmann | looks like some still run with problems | 14:40 |
| dboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Not much I can do about that. | 14:40 |
| dboddie | zeth: ? | 14:40 |
| ThomasWaldmann | if you reload a page showing a backtrace multiple times, sometimes it is rendered ok | 14:42 |
| ThomasWaldmann | i know this behaviour if there are some processes running old stuff and some new, so it depends on which process processes your request | 14:42 |
| dboddie | Thanks for the diagnosis. :-) | 14:45 |
| ThomasWaldmann | since when does this happen btw? | 14:45 |
| ThomasWaldmann | btw, 1.6.3 on mod_wsgi runs great :) | 14:46 |
| * ThomasWaldmann registers | 14:53 | |
| dboddie | ThomasWaldmann: I don't know. jezdez might be able to say. The Wiki looked OK last night. | 14:54 |
| zeth | dboddie | 14:55 |
| jezdez | I think I first stumbled over it two hours ago | 14:55 |
| zeth | ooo | 14:55 |
| zeth | PicklingError: Can't pickle <type 'function'>: attribute lookup __builtin__.function failed | 14:56 |
| ThomasWaldmann | btw, in the registration checkout, at the payment options, it should mention that you need to have/create a paypal account | 14:57 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (when you click on "pay with credit/debit card") | 14:58 |
| ThomasWaldmann | zeth: did you kill all moin processes? | 14:59 |
| zeth | I just saw that | 14:59 |
| zeth | shall I delete data/cache first? | 14:59 |
| zeth | hmm | 15:00 |
| zeth | I moved everything out of the data/cache | 15:00 |
| zeth | and it seemed to come back to life | 15:00 |
| ThomasWaldmann | moin stop, kill, del cache, start | 15:00 |
| zeth | huh, sorry | 15:02 |
| zeth | I have forgot everything about moin, paul is the except, I just sort out the server | 15:02 |
| zeth | but | 15:02 |
| zeth | there is two moin wikis on the server so I don't want to hose the other one | 15:03 |
| zeth | it is debian server, BTW | 15:03 |
| zeth | I did ps -e | grep moin and there is no moin process | 15:03 |
| ThomasWaldmann | and likely a stable debian moin package :P | 15:03 |
| zeth | it is running through apache | 15:03 |
| ThomasWaldmann | s/stable/stale/ :) | 15:03 |
| zeth | I think not actually | 15:03 |
| zeth | I think it is from a tarball that paul provided | 15:03 |
| dboddie | zeth: Can you use pstree to tell you which processes are children of others? | 15:04 |
| zeth | dboddie: sweet command | 15:04 |
| ThomasWaldmann | You will be receiving | 15:04 |
| zeth | I never seen this one before | 15:04 |
| ThomasWaldmann | * An email Registration Ticket, confirming your registration. This is your pass to EuroPython 2008, please bring it to the Conference. | 15:04 |
| ThomasWaldmann | * Once payment has been made, an Invoice, which you should keep for your records. | 15:04 |
| ThomasWaldmann | a) i got an invoice immediately | 15:05 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (by printing from the web browser) | 15:05 |
| dboddie | ThomasWaldmann: You should get a mail as well, I think. | 15:05 |
| ThomasWaldmann | b) i got an order confirmation (no idea if that should be the "email registration ticket") | 15:06 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (by mail) | 15:06 |
| zeth | the other two wikis on the server work | 15:06 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (and the payment details for the bank transfer should better be in that email, not just once on the screen) | 15:06 |
| zeth | Is there anyone here who knows about MoinMoin? | 15:07 |
| zeth | If there is not an easy fix then I will probably just restart from base principles | 15:07 |
| dboddie | zeth: ThomasWaldmann is your man. | 15:07 |
| zeth | get a new version and move the data across | 15:07 |
| ThomasWaldmann | zeth: you killed all python processes and did like told? | 15:08 |
| zeth | kill all python processes? | 15:08 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (all moin python processes, to be exact :) | 15:08 |
| zeth | That would be a bit extreme | 15:08 |
| zeth | there are other things running on there | 15:09 |
| zeth | so I would want to be a bit more specific | 15:09 |
| ThomasWaldmann | if you can find out what's what, then maybe just restart apache | 15:09 |
| ThomasWaldmann | how are the wikis served exactly? fastcgi? mod_python? mod_wsgi? ... | 15:09 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (see apache conf for /community url) | 15:10 |
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| dboddie | pboddie: Just in time for a MoinMoin discussion. :-/ | 15:10 |
| ThomasWaldmann | if I get access, I maybe could also help via ssh | 15:11 |
| dboddie | pboddie: Check the channel log. | 15:11 |
| zeth | ThomasWaldmann: mod_python | 15:11 |
| zeth | there are three wikis | 15:11 |
| ThomasWaldmann | ok, then restart apache | 15:11 |
| zeth | spring2008 which I set up myself which uses the latest code running completely within its own space | 15:12 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (or rather: stop apache, kill data/cache/*, start apache) | 15:12 |
| zeth | this one is fine | 15:12 |
| zeth | the spring2008 one is fine | 15:12 |
| zeth | then there is the pyconuk one which is the debian package | 15:12 |
| zeth | then there is the europython which is the code from pboddie | 15:12 |
| zeth | which was installed some magic install script from paul | 15:13 |
| zeth | okay | 15:13 |
| zeth | I have killed apache | 15:14 |
| zeth | cleared the stuff | 15:14 |
| zeth | and then restarted apache | 15:14 |
| zeth | if it doesn' work now then | 15:14 |
| zeth | I will start the wiki again | 15:14 |
| zeth | and move the content back | 15:14 |
| dboddie | Looks fine so far. | 15:14 |
| zeth | does anyone know what the problem was? | 15:15 |
| zeth | the server was fine | 15:16 |
| zeth | other python powered sites were fine | 15:16 |
| zeth | two other wikis were fine | 15:16 |
| zeth | this wiki had PicklingError: Can't pickle <type 'function'>: attribute lookup | 15:16 |
| zeth | etc | 15:16 |
| zeth | that can't be good | 15:16 |
| dboddie | Yes, that looks wrong. | 15:17 |
| zeth | looks like some code problem | 15:17 |
| zeth | or some incorrect combinations of versions or something | 15:17 |
| dboddie | pboddie might be able to figure it out. | 15:18 |
| zeth | Is it something to do with? | 15:19 |
| * ThomasWaldmann at phone | 15:19 | |
| zeth | http://www.dscpl.com.au/wiki/ModPython/Articles/IssuesWithSessionObjects | 15:19 |
| zeth | We are not at the latest version | 15:22 |
| ThomasWaldmann | the code where it crashed is the scanning of the group pages, at the end, it pickles all it got to disk | 15:22 |
| ThomasWaldmann | and there should be no functions involved :) | 15:22 |
| zeth | could it be the problem was a namespace problem? | 15:23 |
| ThomasWaldmann | ep runs moin 1.5.3, I guess that's about 2 years old code | 15:23 |
| zeth | that some of one version had got mixed in within another? | 15:23 |
| zeth | out of the three moinmoin wikis, only one is installed how I would like it to be | 15:23 |
| zeth | which is completely within its own directory | 15:24 |
| zeth | the other two are wikifarmed together | 15:24 |
| ThomasWaldmann | which code which wiki uses is determined by sys.path (or PYTHONPATH) | 15:25 |
| ThomasWaldmann | usually setup in some apache section where the modpy stuff gets invoked | 15:25 |
| zeth | I want to be sure this error does not happen again, so if I get a new version of the code, will it be easy for me to export the data across? | 15:26 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (and you can have lots of different moin code versions on the same machine as long as you get that right [and don't use setup.py to install them all to the same place :]) | 15:26 |
| ThomasWaldmann | upgrading from 1.5.3 to 1.5.9 (latest and last 1.5 release) should not be that hard | 15:27 |
| zeth | well | 15:27 |
| ThomasWaldmann | 1.5. to 1.6.3 is a bit more work and definitely not done in 10mins | 15:27 |
| zeth | if I get a new code tarball from the net | 15:27 |
| zeth | and put the data in it | 15:27 |
| zeth | is that doable in ten minutes? | 15:27 |
| zeth | or say under an hour? | 15:27 |
| ThomasWaldmann | 1.5.9 likely yes, 1.6 rather no | 15:28 |
| ThomasWaldmann | if i do it, 1.6 could be in below an hour :) | 15:28 |
| ThomasWaldmann | at least if you did not use 3rd party extensions or own hacks | 15:28 |
| zeth | cool, you are volunteering for that? | 15:28 |
| ThomasWaldmann | i can do it | 15:28 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (not right now, because of a family birthday starting in some minutes, but tomorrow evening or weekend would be ok) | 15:29 |
| zeth | cheers | 15:30 |
| zeth | okay we meet up on IRC again and sort it out together | 15:30 |
| zeth | okay? | 15:30 |
| zeth | at the weekend | 15:30 |
| zeth | and hope the exisitng one does not die in other ways before then | 15:30 |
| ThomasWaldmann | yeah, maybe just contact me on #moin when you have time | 15:30 |
| ThomasWaldmann | we can do it using screen, so you see what I do :) | 15:30 |
| * ThomasWaldmann is located in Germany, UTC+2 | 15:31 | |
| ThomasWaldmann | btw, already done the DSA-1571-1 work? :) | 15:32 |
| ThomasWaldmann | zeth: btw, do you think you could install mod_wsgi additionally? | 15:35 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (mod_python == major pain IMHO :) | 15:36 |
| ThomasWaldmann | See also: http://www.backports.org/debian/pool/main/m/mod-wsgi/ | 15:36 |
| dboddie | Note that we'll be having an IRC meeting later today, so we can try to discuss some of these things then. | 15:37 |
| ThomasWaldmann | mod_python is rather old stuff and not very secure | 15:37 |
| ThomasWaldmann | afaik, it all runs withing the apache process. so same uid/gid for everything. and if something fscks up, it might have bad and far reaching consequences. | 15:38 |
| ThomasWaldmann | mod_wsgi has a nice daemon mode and completely manages the daemons for you. so everything is cleanly separated running with own uid/gid and process. | 15:39 |
| ThomasWaldmann | the moinmo.in site uses mod_wsgi (first 1.3, then 2.0 since a few weeks) and got much more stable (compared to fastcgi/lighttpd before). | 15:39 |
| zeth | the way the spring2008 wiki was setup | 15:48 |
| pboddie | Hello everyone! Sorry, was occupied elsewhere. | 15:48 |
| zeth | was that there is a folder in /home, with one folder called live and one fodler called moin-1.6.1 | 15:49 |
| zeth | was that there is a folder in /home, with one folder called live and one folder called moin-1.6.1 | 15:49 |
| zeth | it does not use the site-packages or /usr or anything | 15:49 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Alexander said that the problem was with mod_python, which is what I'd suspect to be the problem. | 15:49 |
| pboddie | The code I supplied to zeth was just theme source files, not a whole MoinMoin distribution - it should be running off the standard Debian package. | 15:50 |
| zeth | pboddie: it is | 15:51 |
| zeth | pboddie: you are right I think | 15:51 |
| zeth | i nthe long run, I want to get rid of the Debian installed version | 15:51 |
| pboddie | So, I think it's just a problem with versions of that age: they have the race condition that Alexander described. | 15:51 |
| pboddie | If I were running a system, I'd be tempted to backport a more recent version, but obviously it's risky if you have a number of things depending on it. | 15:52 |
| zeth | so if I setup a new version in a directory of its own, I would then want to import the content | 15:52 |
| pboddie | That should be easy: it's all in the epwiki directory. The only other stuff is the /etc/moin/ep2008.py file, I think. | 15:53 |
| pboddie | I'd be inclined to agree with Thomas about upgrading: going to 1.6 would be tricky, and there might be some minor changes required beyond what the migration script hopefully does. | 15:54 |
| zeth | pboddie: how many user accounts are there on the wiki? | 15:54 |
| pboddie | I think you can see if you look in epwiki/data/user and count the number of user files. Thomas might have a quicker, nicer solution. | 15:55 |
| zeth | I could set up a new version at a different URL, then get a load of people to cut and paste the content | 15:55 |
| zeth | I assume the markup format is still the same? | 15:56 |
| pboddie | Well, it should be easiest to copy the content (for safety's sake) into another directory, then point a newer MoinMoin version at it, running the upgrade script whose name eludes me (it's in the README). | 15:56 |
| pboddie | Yes, the markup format only changed in 1.6. If you stick to 1.5.x then it's the same, as far as I know. | 15:57 |
| pboddie | If you want, and if Thomas can't help, I can take a look at doing this tonight. | 15:57 |
| pboddie | An interesting quick fix might be to switch to CGI, though. | 15:57 |
| zeth | looking in that user folder is starting to make moinmoin come back to me in my brain when I used it two years ago | 15:58 |
| zeth | well the other moinmoin wikis work fine | 15:58 |
| zeth | so I think just get away from the debian and other mess | 15:58 |
| pboddie | The biggest hit then would be the front page images, which are attachments, but we could copy them into the static images directory and link to them there. | 15:58 |
| pboddie | How are the others configured? | 15:59 |
| zeth | well, the best one is the spring2008.org wiki | 15:59 |
| pboddie | Isn't that 1.6, though? | 15:59 |
| zeth | yup | 15:59 |
| zeth | but it is all within its home directory with its own moinmoin code | 15:59 |
| zeth | does not use the polluted namespace | 16:00 |
| zeth | that is how I would prefer to go forward | 16:00 |
| zeth | as we can the move it between servers | 16:00 |
| zeth | as we can then move it between servers | 16:00 |
| Aiste | pboddie: I'm afraid i won't make it to the meeting tonight -- slightly overworked | 16:00 |
| pboddie | My feeling is that if we can do the minimum to avoid problems, we could try that to start with. Slow CGI is better than error pages, after all. ;-) | 16:00 |
| pboddie | Aiste: I'll be late myself, but there's a lot for other people to talk about, too. ;-) | 16:00 |
| pboddie | zeth: Flexibility is very nice to have, though, I agree. | 16:01 |
| Aiste | I think the only info needed from me is streaming and related info | 16:01 |
| zeth | there are 446 users, I presume most of them spam | 16:01 |
| Aiste | and I can't say much, cause hotel people are really slow on this, but it should be alright | 16:01 |
| zeth | I have a look through them | 16:01 |
| Aiste | also we have an ok progress on GVR speach | 16:02 |
| pboddie | zeth: Had I raised hosting with people a couple of weeks later, I'd have probably hosted it myself. | 16:02 |
| pboddie | Aiste: Great. I think the streaming was something that your colleagues and MrTopf were working on, right? | 16:02 |
| zeth | hosting there is fine, just don't like getting the errors | 16:03 |
| Aiste | pboddie: yes, I think so | 16:03 |
| pboddie | zeth: Yes, I imagine that many of them are. Did you implement the ACL change, by the way? | 16:03 |
| MrTopf | HI | 16:03 |
| pboddie | MrTopf: Did the discussion about streaming and traffic-shaping continue? | 16:04 |
| pboddie | I'm half tempted to do a talk about MoinMoin issues based on our experiences. ;-) | 16:05 |
| pboddie | A positive talk, though, not a rant. ;-) | 16:06 |
| MrTopf | pboddie: not that I know of, more waiting for Aiste et al. about that | 16:07 |
| MrTopf | ah right, I need to submit talks | 16:07 |
| pboddie | Nice to see everyone reads the blog. ;-) | 16:07 |
| MrTopf | btw, I guess you hard about Joachim? | 16:07 |
| Aiste | yes :( | 16:07 |
| MrTopf | well, I also know without the blog that there is a deadline | 16:07 |
| pboddie | Yes, very sad. :-( | 16:08 |
| MrTopf | indeed | 16:08 |
| pboddie | MrTopf: True. I guess everyone is procrastinating or waiting for an extension to the deadline. | 16:08 |
| MrTopf | maybe we should make some moment of remembering him at the conf.. | 16:08 |
| MrTopf | I am just waiting for my workload to drop a bit ;-) | 16:09 |
| pboddie | Perhaps Martijn might be planning something there. | 16:09 |
| MrTopf | my idea was also to check with Martijn | 16:09 |
| zeth | pboddie: sorry I am not sure | 16:11 |
| zeth | pboddie: if we didn't do it together then no | 16:12 |
| zeth | pboddie: is it okay that I delete users like viagraforyou000 | 16:12 |
| pboddie | zeth: Fine by me! | 16:13 |
| zeth | these are ones that could be real users | 16:13 |
| zeth | ThomasWaldmann ZethGreen MarcMagransDeAbril Imvu Kristian Rother GeirPedersen MichaelTwomey MauroCavalcanti ImvuCredits UkRodge yahooren regebro DavidBoddie ChristianTheune StephanDiehl HaraldArminMassa AndrewKuchling nobye5878 JanMurre EugeneVandenbulke JamesCrone LauraCreighton JannisLeidel BastianBlank Christian Scholz DaveKuhlman PaulBoddie HuangJian JennyAaeey JackJiang CatherGong AndreasSchreiber JenlyAaefy bossfee213no thomasr EngelbertGruber m | 16:13 |
| zeth | the rest seem clearly spam | 16:13 |
| pboddie | zeth: bossfee213no is a spammer. Check the BlockedUsersGroup for a list of common ones. | 16:14 |
| zeth | I have backed up the spam just in case | 16:14 |
| pboddie | I guess HuangJian, JackJiang, Imvu and ImvuCredits are also spammers. | 16:15 |
| zeth | I guess so | 16:15 |
| pboddie | Don't know about CatherGong, but it sounds spammish. | 16:15 |
| zeth | but there are not as clear as the rest | 16:15 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (textchas in 1.6 fix the spam problem. moinmo.in is wide open r/w for everybody and no spam since months) | 16:15 |
| zeth | moinmoin spam seems to be a chinese speciality | 16:16 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: I'd have used 1.6 if I'd known last year. | 16:16 |
| zeth | my moinmoin batch admin script from two years ago still works | 16:16 |
| pboddie | I think we have most problems now with repeat spamming - that's why the ACL change to block people in the BlockedUsersGroup was proposed. | 16:16 |
| pboddie | Maybe we should upgrade to 1.6 eventually, but I'm wary of doing so right now, at least to immediately replace the current site. | 16:17 |
| zeth | well I think we should consider it | 16:18 |
| zeth | if it will run unattended for longer | 16:18 |
| pboddie | Of course, I wanted to force people to log in, but then it was said that this sets the bar too high for editing. Given the apparent interest in editing amongst the wider community (ie. not very much), I doubt that my suggestion would have been a real problem. | 16:19 |
| pboddie | zeth: True. If you want, I can try and do a migration on my own hardware and see how it works. | 16:20 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: How's the OpenID support for MoinMoin coming along? ;-) | 16:20 |
| zeth | pboddie: well this server is used a lot by Python West Midlands | 16:21 |
| zeth | the kind of people who are organising europython next year | 16:22 |
| zeth | so having it on this server makes sense in a way | 16:22 |
| jezdez | europython next year not in vilnius? | 16:22 |
| pboddie | jezdez: It's typically two years at most in the same place. | 16:22 |
| zeth | since we want to pull the many PyconUK organisers into europython | 16:22 |
| jezdez | I see, good idea | 16:23 |
| zeth | jezdez: it is in England next year | 16:23 |
| zeth | after that who knows | 16:23 |
| pboddie | zeth: I wasn't going to suggest moving it anywhere else, really. I'd like to take a back seat around this kind of thing at some point in the future. ;-) | 16:23 |
| ThomasWaldmann | pboddie: i didnt test it personally, but there is a 1.7.0beta2 available for testing it :) | 16:24 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Backport? ;-) | 16:24 |
| ThomasWaldmann | no | 16:24 |
| zeth | well this is my first europython, but it seems that PyConUK seems to have more organisers than europython at the moment | 16:24 |
| zeth | so next time you can give it to someone else to do | 16:25 |
| pboddie | You'll be in good shape to take it over, I'm sure. I think a lot of interest in organising EuroPython has evaporated. | 16:25 |
| zeth | because europython will have the PyconUK people too | 16:25 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (it depends on quite some changes in how auth and userprefs work. this is one of the major changes from 1.6 to 1.7, so if we backport it all, we make 1.6 to become 1.7 which is rather pointless :) | 16:25 |
| zeth | Well, it is interesting question whether it should be in the same place for two years, there are good and bad things about it | 16:26 |
| pboddie | That's why I think there's an argument for having some kind of global super-organiser (the IPC - International Python Committee) who can run the infrastructure for conferences. | 16:26 |
| zeth | good thing is that hopefully people know what to do the second year so they have less to do | 16:26 |
| zeth | but downside it is less exciting to go to the same city twice | 16:26 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Has anyone given you the WSGI middleware sales pitch yet? | 16:26 |
| pboddie | zeth: Not sure. I'm kind of looking forward to going back to Vilnius. I'd have gone to Gothenburg two years running as well. | 16:27 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Apart from the relentless WSGI promotion going on in the background, of course. | 16:28 |
| zeth | well I suppose two short visits is not a lot if you like exploring | 16:28 |
| zeth | pboddie: I don't think corporate run conferences have a good track record | 16:29 |
| pboddie | It was mostly lightweight tourist stuff for us last year. If you're only there for a week and aren't sprinting, then it's only three or four days. | 16:29 |
| zeth | well my original plan was to go to helsinki then take the superseacat to Estonia and then interail down | 16:29 |
| zeth | but I have so much work to do | 16:30 |
| pboddie | On IPC, I guess I chose the acronym badly: it'd be a virtual organising committee running the registration, talks, Web site, Wiki, and so on, or at least giving assistance to those doing so. | 16:30 |
| ThomasWaldmann | pboddie: ? | 16:30 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: I was just thinking about having stuff dispatching to MoinMoin with all the user credentials already provided by some component or other. | 16:31 |
| zeth | well we like to think that we in Birmingham are getting somewhere with our conference software which should go fully live for PythonUK at least | 16:31 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Of course, it's not something only WSGI can do, but I guess people do like to talk about it a lot. | 16:31 |
| ThomasWaldmann | moin supports wsgi (in 1.6 and 1.7 in a rather basic way) | 16:31 |
| zeth | PyconUK | 16:31 |
| ThomasWaldmann | and we have a SOC 2008 project refactoring everything inside moin to be wsgi | 16:32 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Are you doing a sprint at EuroPython? | 16:32 |
| ThomasWaldmann | yes | 16:32 |
| zeth | well the wiki has not crashed .. yet | 16:32 |
| pboddie | zeth: Have you changed something? | 16:32 |
| pboddie | On the subject of conference services, I still think Indico had a good idea behind it, even if the implementation wasn't great. | 16:35 |
| zeth | pboddie: I deleted the cache a few times and restarted apache a few times | 16:36 |
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| dboddie | pboddie: Looks like it's going to be a fun meeting tonight. Did you see John's message on the interest list? | 16:46 |
| dboddie | (interest -> improve) | 16:48 |
| jezdez | ThomasWaldmann: shameless plug: http://github.com/jezdez/virtualmin-moinmoin | 16:51 |
| jezdez | ThomasWaldmann: this will be included in next version of virtualmin pro | 16:52 |
| pboddie | dboddie: Yes, and I saw the PSF meeting minutes about it earlier. | 16:57 |
| pboddie | dboddie: Does the PSF have any kind of trademark policy or is that something that is continually "carried forward" in their meetings. | 16:58 |
| pboddie | ...? | 16:58 |
| dboddie | pboddie: I'll check. Sorry not to have considered that earlier... | 16:59 |
| pboddie | dboddie: I did think of it earlier, but I assumed that someone closer to the PSF would have looked into it. I'm content to run logo competitions, but I'd rather not have to pretend to be a lawyer as well. | 17:01 |
| dboddie | http://www.python.org/about/legal/ | 17:02 |
| dboddie | http://www.python.org/psf/trademarks/ | 17:03 |
| pboddie | "Python and PyCon are trademarks or registered trademarks of the Python Software Foundation." sort of undermines their PyCon as blanket name for all Python-related conferences. | 17:03 |
| dboddie | "Any use of a derived (modified) logo for any commercial purpose must also be approved first by the PSF. We will generally be unable to do this, because of the confusion it may cause." | 17:04 |
| pboddie | "Use of derived logos for user groups and conferences -- Allowed if used to refer to the Python programming language." | 17:05 |
| pboddie | "Commercial user groups and for-profit conferences require permission from the PSF." | 17:05 |
| pboddie | Since EuroPython is provably non-profit, it satisfies the conference clause. | 17:06 |
| dboddie | We should contact the PSF anyway. It's better to tread softly with this than to kick up a fuss. | 17:06 |
| dboddie | Shall I do that? | 17:07 |
| pboddie | I guess John heard from them because PyCon UK isn't obviously non-profit. In contrast, the Europython Society is a registered non-profit. | 17:07 |
| pboddie | dboddie: I guess you should talk to John about it first. | 17:07 |
| pboddie | I'd argue that the logo doesn't contravene the "confusingly similar" clause. I imagine that the designer may have been aware of this, in fact. | 17:09 |
| zeth | PyConUK is non profit | 17:11 |
| zeth | PyConUK is for-loss! | 17:12 |
| pboddie | Is it registered as a non-profit organisation, though? | 17:12 |
| zeth | no it is just a registered society | 17:12 |
| zeth | it was enough work to get that far | 17:12 |
| pboddie | Yes, I can believe it. | 17:12 |
| zeth | we are very much non-profit though | 17:13 |
| zeth | in that no one gets paid | 17:13 |
| zeth | we run at a loss | 17:13 |
| zeth | and everyone has to pay equally for the costs | 17:13 |
| zeth | I am not a lawyer | 17:14 |
| pboddie | Maybe the lawyers were looking for the stamp of approval, didn't see it, then fired off a letter. | 17:14 |
| zeth | but we are a society running a members only event | 17:14 |
| zeth | everyone that comes is a member | 17:15 |
| zeth | there was some tax reasons that we are a members-only event | 17:15 |
| zeth | to keep it non-corporate | 17:15 |
| zeth | avoid some tax or other | 17:15 |
| zeth | though we pay some taxes | 17:15 |
| pboddie | And so everyone can smoke cigars indoors, too. ;-) | 17:15 |
| zeth | yeah that is right actually | 17:17 |
| zeth | except the music school might mind | 17:17 |
| pboddie | In Norway, smoking fanatics have tried those kinds of things and failed. I think it's slightly different in the UK. | 17:18 |
| zeth | we could be a non-profit and we probably will do | 17:19 |
| zeth | but that costs money to not to have money ! | 17:19 |
| pboddie | A kind of non-profit incubator would be good for these kinds of things. | 17:20 |
| pboddie | OK. Have to go shortly. Will probably miss the start of the meeting, but dboddie will keep me informed. | 17:56 |
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| dboddie | Hi! | 18:59 |
| lac | hi all | 18:59 |
| dboddie | http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2008/IRCMeetings/IRCMeeting12 | 18:59 |
| dboddie | zeth: Do you know if John is joining us this evening? | 19:00 |
| *** pinner has joined #europython | 19:02 | |
| dboddie | As if by magic... | 19:02 |
| pinner | G'day | 19:02 |
| dboddie | Hello. | 19:02 |
| lac | Hi John | 19:02 |
| pinner | magic? | 19:03 |
| dboddie | pboddie is hoping to join in later. | 19:03 |
| dboddie | The agenda is here: http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2008/IRCMeetings/IRCMeeting12 | 19:03 |
| MrTopf | Hi | 19:03 |
| dboddie | Hi MrTopf | 19:04 |
| pinner | Hello MrTopf | 19:04 |
| dboddie | Everyone ready? | 19:04 |
| dboddie | Oh, and Aiste isn't joining us today, either. | 19:06 |
| dboddie | At least, that's what she said earlier. | 19:06 |
| dboddie | Right. Let's get started! | 19:06 |
| dboddie | pinner: Thanks for getting registration up. | 19:07 |
| lac | yes, thank you john. | 19:07 |
| pinner | dboddie: ok, we have three registered and paid by PayPal, and two to pay by Bank Transfer | 19:07 |
| dboddie | Right. ThomasWaldmann had some issues, but managed to register. | 19:08 |
| dboddie | [14:07] <ThomasWaldmann> btw, in the registration checkout, at the payment options, it should mention that you need to have/create a paypal account | 19:08 |
| MrTopf | I should register ;-) | 19:08 |
| dboddie | pinner: I'll cut and paste these into a mail and send it to you, shall I? | 19:08 |
| dboddie | MrTopf: Of course. :-) | 19:08 |
| pinner | which begs the question: who monitors the bank account to see if a transfer has taken place | 19:08 |
| dboddie | Who has access? lac? | 19:09 |
| pinner | dboddie: yes, please. Ibelieve You do NOT have to have a Paypal account, however I have one, so I can't test it. | 19:09 |
| dboddie | OK. | 19:10 |
| dboddie | We had some issues with the Wiki earlier, but I think ThomasWaldmann managed to talk zeth through the fixes. | 19:10 |
| MrTopf | I usually have issues as my account is somehow broken and my credit card is attached to it and it does not allow me to reuse it | 19:10 |
| MrTopf | but I will find a way | 19:10 |
| pinner | lac: looks like you will need to check the bank regularly, and let me know when payments have been made | 19:11 |
| pinner | lac: or you could ahve a login to the cart and mark them paid yourself. | 19:11 |
| lac | I can do this for the wire transfers easily enough, but I don't know how the paypal transfers work. | 19:11 |
| lac | Don't we have to manually instruct paypal to send us money? | 19:11 |
| pinner | The PayPal payments stay in our PayPal account until we initiate a transfer to the bank account | 19:12 |
| pinner | lac: yes, that's right | 19:12 |
| lac | Ok. So you want me to monitor our paypal account? | 19:13 |
| lac | or just when we make a transfer make sure that it gets to the bank account? | 19:13 |
| pinner | lac: you do it through the PayPal login, looks easy, but I resisted the temptation to try it out | 19:13 |
| pinner | lac: no, monitor the bank account | 19:13 |
| dboddie | pinner: Are you funthyme at gmail dot com? | 19:13 |
| MrTopf | the important part is to put my account number in before you press the button ;-) | 19:14 |
| pinner | lac: the mailings from europython-adm will tell us when something goes into PayPal | 19:14 |
| lac | ok, I can monitor our swedish bank account just fine. | 19:14 |
| pinner | dboddie: yes | 19:14 |
| dboddie | pinner: mail coming your way | 19:14 |
| lac | (over the internet, its easy. provided you have a magic encryption box, which I have.) | 19:14 |
| dboddie | OK, did anyone else have problems with registration? | 19:15 |
| * dboddie guesses that's a no. | 19:15 | |
| dboddie | Shall we talk about the logo? | 19:16 |
| dboddie | Interpreting the PSF Trademark Usage Policy, it looks like we might be able to use the logo we have under the following Derived Logos clause: | 19:18 |
| dboddie | Use of derived logos for user groups and conferences -- Allowed if used to refer to the Python programming language. Commercial user groups and for-profit conferences require permission from the PSF. | 19:18 |
| dboddie | But we should contact the PSF, just to be sure. | 19:18 |
| lac | I can do that. | 19:19 |
| lac | But I am quite sure they won't mind in the least. | 19:19 |
| dboddie | lac: Do you want to do that? | 19:19 |
| lac | sure | 19:19 |
| dboddie | Thanks. | 19:19 |
| dboddie | pinner: Do you want to say anything about the logo, or are you still fuming? | 19:19 |
| pinner | there is currently a lot of discussion on the psf list about these logos, initiated by mal following my posting to europython0-improve | 19:20 |
| pinner | no, i"m not fuming, we've take the decision in principle to change our log when we have an appropriate ideq for a rep;acemnet | 19:21 |
| dboddie | Well, perhaps lac and pinner need to coordinate on this, just to avoid confusion. It wouldn't make sense to ask them about it twice. | 19:21 |
| pinner | I just want to make sure that ep doesn't fall foul of this as well (we already have swag bags printed, for example) | 19:22 |
| dboddie | pinner: Ouch. Sorry to hear that. That's why we need to clear it up before doing T-shirts and the sponsorship brochure... | 19:22 |
| dboddie | ...which leads us to... | 19:22 |
| dboddie | ...Sponsorship | 19:22 |
| lac | jacob is not here, at a meeting that runs right nowö | 19:23 |
| lac | I can forward whatever you ask to him | 19:23 |
| dboddie | Should I send you the brochure? | 19:23 |
| pinner | brochure? | 19:24 |
| dboddie | Sponsorship brochure. | 19:24 |
| dboddie | Quentin sent me the PyCon UK one, I looked at the Akademy one, and I made a draft EP one. | 19:24 |
| pinner | lac: just checking, are you going to clear the logo usage with the PSF? | 19:25 |
| lac | I can, or you can. | 19:25 |
| lac | whatever you think is correct. | 19:25 |
| dboddie | I think lac should do it. Let's not confuse the PyCon UK and EP issues. | 19:25 |
| pinner | lac: best if you do, as I'm already in the dog house | 19:25 |
| lac | but I just read your mail to ep-improve which apparantly was on my disk that got creamed. | 19:25 |
| lac | somebodies in the psf are insane, | 19:26 |
| lac | but I will ask. | 19:26 |
| dboddie | Just don't say that in your e-mail. ;-) | 19:26 |
| lac | probably better not for that email | 19:26 |
| dboddie | OK, well, as to sponsorship, I think (apart from the logo) that I just need a sane set of terms and conditions, then we're set. | 19:27 |
| pinner | lac: what really did bug me is that they'd all lloked at the website with the logo when we asked for approval over a year ago! | 19:27 |
| dboddie | As long as jacob22 is OK with the brochure, of course. | 19:27 |
| lac | I think he is fine with it. He didn't leave me with any comments for you guys, at any rate, before running off to his 1800 meeting | 19:27 |
| dboddie | lac, pinner: I'll send you both the brochure, anyway. | 19:28 |
| dboddie | I told Quentin that I'd put the raw resources somewhere as well, in due course. | 19:28 |
| pinner | dboddie: thanks | 19:28 |
| dboddie | I think we can skip over the surveys this time, unless there's anything to say. | 19:29 |
| pinner | dboddie: nothing to say because nothing done! sorry. | 19:29 |
| dboddie | pinner: No problem. | 19:29 |
| dboddie | And I guess we'll have to wait for logo clearance before doing anything else with T-shirts. | 19:29 |
| dboddie | MrTopf: Do you know what the situation is with streaming? | 19:30 |
| pinner | fwiw, I don;t anticipate a problem with the logo because it's in it's original IKEA form, albeit surrounded by EuroPython graphics | 19:30 |
| pinner | on the other hand, a lawyer is involved... | 19:31 |
| MrTopf | dboddie: Aiste just said that the hotel is slow but she does not expect any problems | 19:31 |
| dboddie | pinner: I agree. | 19:31 |
| dboddie | MrTopf: Do we need to think about volunteers, equipment, ...? | 19:31 |
| MrTopf | but my guess is that we only will find out on location if it works when it's traffic shaping | 19:31 |
| MrTopf | yes, I guess we need to think about this | 19:32 |
| pinner | dboddie: I wouldn't let the logo issue stop you using it in the brochure, we need to get it out to the sponsors | 19:32 |
| MrTopf | for every room we need: 1 camera, 1 tripod, 1 laptop/computer to which the camera can be connected plus 1 person controlling it | 19:32 |
| dboddie | MrTopf: I think it's about time we started using the europython-volunteers list that SteveA set up. | 19:32 |
| dboddie | pinner: OK. | 19:32 |
| MrTopf | are there people on it? :) | 19:32 |
| MrTopf | maybe we should also promote it a bit | 19:33 |
| dboddie | MrTopf: Apparently, it's all the people who signed the sheet last year. | 19:33 |
| MrTopf | so the number of cameras/laptops will then define how many rooms we can stream | 19:33 |
| MrTopf | and people of course | 19:33 |
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| MrTopf | it would also be good to have more than 1 person per room so that you can also attend some talks yourself | 19:33 |
| dboddie | Yes. | 19:34 |
| dboddie | Incidentally, does anyone know the current status of sponsors or people wanting sponsorship? | 19:34 |
| pinner | MrTopf: thsi sounds like Startrek: streaming people ;) | 19:34 |
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| dboddie | Hi pboddie! | 19:34 |
| pboddie | dboddie: Hello! | 19:34 |
| MrTopf | Hi pboddie | 19:34 |
| pinner | yes, hello paul | 19:34 |
| pboddie | Hello all! | 19:34 |
| * pboddie is just catching up with the logs. | 19:34 | |
| MrTopf | will there be an option to get sound in every room? | 19:35 |
| MrTopf | I cannot remember from last time except that I did not had a sound connection | 19:35 |
| dboddie | I guess that depends on equipment. | 19:36 |
| MrTopf | I think this is the most important issue for streaming | 19:36 |
| dboddie | I agree. Video streaming isn't as important as having clear audio. | 19:36 |
| dboddie | Ah, I almost forgot about keynotes... | 19:37 |
| MrTopf | so people responsible for equipment should take an audio output to the camera into account then | 19:37 |
| dboddie | It looks like Aiste is taking over from Lennart with respect to Hans Rosling. | 19:38 |
| pboddie | Maybe the streaming equipment is just a question of having enough people, with enough equipment, in all the right places. | 19:38 |
| MrTopf | preferably mini jack or what it's called (what you can put into your laptop) | 19:38 |
| MrTopf | yes, but if the equipment has no audio out then the quality will decrease quite a bit | 19:38 |
| MrTopf | and you will mostly hear people typing on their laptops next to the cam | 19:38 |
| * dboddie makes a mental note to bring an audio plug adaptor. | 19:39 | |
| dboddie | pboddie: What were you thinking of when you wrote about keynotes in the agenda? | 19:39 |
| pboddie | Just to make sure that the necessary arrangements are being made to secure the keynote speakers. | 19:39 |
| dboddie | pboddie: Having enough information to announce them? | 19:39 |
| pboddie | Probably what Lennart was talking about. | 19:39 |
| dboddie | http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/2008-May/006791.html | 19:40 |
| lac | I want to know if Hans Rosling got back to Lennart with a firm yes, and what day does he then want to talk about? | 19:40 |
| MrTopf | Lennart was twittering me that Hans Rosling is only preliminary so I hope we can make that final soon :) | 19:40 |
| lac | I don't mind talking to Hans Rosling, but what was it that needed doing? or is Aiste doing that? | 19:40 |
| pboddie | Perhaps Lennart and Laura can synchronise by a mechanism other than Twitter. | 19:40 |
| lac | I will email him. | 19:41 |
| MrTopf | maybe CC Aiste | 19:41 |
| dboddie | lac: You're getting all the mail tasks this week. :-) | 19:41 |
| pboddie | My impression is that he'd got him interested but couldn't "sign off" on it, or something like that. | 19:41 |
| pboddie | The thing that requires the equivalent of "root privileges" in the context of the conference organisation. | 19:42 |
| MrTopf | Hans Rosling could bring some people to EP :) | 19:42 |
| dboddie | MrTopf: He has an entourage? ;-) | 19:42 |
| MrTopf | "if you don't want to spend US$6000,- for watching Hans Rosling at TED, come to EP!" ;-) | 19:42 |
| dboddie | pboddie: Was there anything you wanted to add about registration/budget/Wiki? | 19:43 |
| pboddie | I think we can say that registration is dealt with, apart from publicity. | 19:43 |
| pinner | Sorry to go back. You do not need a PayPal account to register, I've just tried. There is a link: | 19:44 |
| pinner | Don't have a PayPal account? Use your credit card or bank account (where available). Continue | 19:44 |
| MrTopf | the only problem is usually if you have a credit card which is attached to an paypal account | 19:44 |
| MrTopf | in thtis case you have to use that account | 19:44 |
| pinner | but of course they'd like you to have a PayPal account | 19:45 |
| MrTopf | sure but mine is broken and thus I don't use PayPal these days ;-) | 19:45 |
| MrTopf | but maybe it also has changed by now, will find out soon | 19:45 |
| pinner | MrTopf: I think that you can still bypass the PayPal account and pay using the card | 19:45 |
| MrTopf | for the past that never worked | 19:46 |
| MrTopf | I tried everything, even dissolving this account which maybe made it even more broken ;-) | 19:46 |
| MrTopf | as soon as it detecs that that card is attached to an account it wants you to login to it | 19:46 |
| pboddie | Is this about credit cards just using PayPal as the payment service? (Rather than hooking into the whole PayPal system.) | 19:46 |
| MrTopf | but anyway, probably my own special problem | 19:46 |
| pinner | We could havve the PayPal Website Payments Pro option, which hide the PayPal account stuff | 19:46 |
| pinner | but that cost a monthly subscription, which rules it out when we want for only two month in the year | 19:47 |
| pboddie | About the Wiki: it needs looking at a bit in order to resolve some of the errors that keep coming up. As far as I am currently aware. | 19:47 |
| MrTopf | I will get registered somehow, don't worry :) | 19:47 |
| pinner | pboddie: is this what Zeth's supposed to be lookign at? | 19:48 |
| pboddie | pinner: Zeth and others were talking about it earlier. I'm convinced that it's a mod_python + Debian-era MoinMoin problem which would go away if CGI were used instead. | 19:49 |
| pboddie | I said that I'd help look into it. Effective immediately! | 19:49 |
| pinner | OK, so we use CGI. I hope it's that simple (we use mod-python elsewhere on the server). | 19:50 |
| pboddie | I didn't understand why the other stuff works, but apparently you're using MoinMoin 1.6 elsewhere. | 19:51 |
| pboddie | We did discuss installing a fixed or patched version of MoinMoin to run privately, with an eye to migrating to 1.6, but I don't intend to do the latter "live". | 19:51 |
| dboddie | That would be asking for trouble. | 19:51 |
| lac | Ok, right now are we in the state where if a user doesn't have a paypal account, and absolutely doesn't want to register to paypal | 19:52 |
| lac | then they cannot pay? | 19:52 |
| ThomasWaldmann | re | 19:52 |
| dboddie | lac: They can still do bank transfer. | 19:52 |
| lac | or they can using a credit card anyway? | 19:52 |
| pinner | pboddie: I'm afraid that I'm MoinMoin ignorant | 19:52 |
| dboddie | ThomasWaldmann: ? | 19:52 |
| pboddie | pinner: I relied on the default Debian version, but this is a bug which, if fixed in later 1.5 releases, isn't apparently available in Debian. | 19:53 |
| pinner | lac: No, I don't think so. They do NOT need a PayPAl account to the best of my knowledge. | 19:53 |
| lac | but no credit card? After all, I pay for freenode using a credit card using a service that uses Paypal, but I still haven't gotten a paypal account | 19:53 |
| zeth | Hi all | 19:53 |
| lac | are we set up the same way, or no? | 19:53 |
| lac | Ok, thanks John | 19:54 |
| ThomasWaldmann | dboddie: ? | 19:54 |
| pinner | lac: just so, you don't need a PayPal account! | 19:54 |
| pinner | lac: you just need to be able to read the PayPal screen. | 19:54 |
| pinner | zeth: hi | 19:55 |
| dboddie | ThomasWaldmann: You said "re". I thought you were going to say something. | 19:55 |
| ThomasWaldmann | that just means that I returned :) | 19:55 |
| lac | ok, great thank you. | 19:55 |
| pinner | zeth: [dp]boddie were just talking about MoinMoin and mod-python vs CGW | 19:55 |
| pboddie | CGI, that is. | 19:56 |
| ThomasWaldmann | zeth: i have an hour, do we want to do something? | 19:56 |
| pinner | pboddie: cgw is a new module i just wrote ;) | 19:56 |
| zeth | Hi ThomasWaldmann thanks, maybe after the meeting has closed proper, we have a little sub group about it | 19:57 |
| zeth | let them rattle though the other topics first | 19:57 |
| dboddie | Have we resolved everything we can this meeting? | 19:57 |
| dboddie | lac to send mails to the PSF and Hans Rosling. | 19:57 |
| * dboddie to send mails to lac and pinner about Sponsorship. | 19:58 | |
| pinner | dboddie: I thinks so, but it would be good to have a progress report on Talks | 19:58 |
| dboddie | pinner: Agreed. | 19:58 |
| dboddie | Status, anyone? | 19:58 |
| ThomasWaldmann | zeth: ok, ping me when ready | 19:59 |
| dboddie | pboddie: Are you following the talks list? | 19:59 |
| pboddie | I think we've only had three submissions or something like that. | 19:59 |
| pinner | so that's one talk per day, so far | 20:00 |
| zeth | Have we had any hints about sprints yet? | 20:00 |
| pinner | of course certain people (like me) haven't submitted anythin yet... | 20:00 |
| dboddie | I read something about sprints. Wasn't there going to be a Python sprint? | 20:00 |
| dboddie | pboddie: Does that include tutorials? | 20:00 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann mentioned a MoinMoin sprint when asked. | 20:00 |
| pboddie | dboddie: No tutorials that I'm aware of. | 20:01 |
| dboddie | OK, so we can potentially add an lxml tutorial to that. | 20:01 |
| pboddie | Again, I think publicity is needed, plus reminders for people to actually submit talks. | 20:01 |
| dboddie | Did Stefan submit his other topic for a talk? | 20:01 |
| pboddie | I haven't seen it yet. | 20:01 |
| dboddie | OK, so we should nudge a few people, at least. | 20:02 |
| pboddie | I put the word out on a few lists and channels. | 20:03 |
| dboddie | We know that people are going (they've blogged about it) so we need to encourage some of them to talk. | 20:03 |
| dboddie | Remind them that they don't have to give talks in Lithuanian. :-) | 20:03 |
| pinner | The Talk_Submission page gives a deadline of 22nd May. This seems pretty unrealistic and we should change it | 20:04 |
| dboddie | Maybe align it with the end of early registration. | 20:04 |
| zeth | yeah, just subtlely drop it | 20:04 |
| pboddie | I say we keep everyone under pressure and only when it's upon us do we push it back. | 20:04 |
| zeth | cool | 20:05 |
| pboddie | Maybe people will think more seriously about submitting talks now that they can register. | 20:05 |
| zeth | a day or two before the date we just quietly remove the data | 20:05 |
| zeth | date | 20:05 |
| zeth | unless we have nough stuff | 20:05 |
| zeth | the talks submission is closed when you have filled the time | 20:05 |
| pboddie | Of course, we'll get the usual complaints about people not knowing what the talks are before the end of early registration. | 20:06 |
| zeth | well thats fair | 20:06 |
| zeth | early registration discount is for that | 20:06 |
| dboddie | Yes, but that's the deal. You pay less because you don't know what you're getting. | 20:06 |
| zeth | dboddie: +1 | 20:06 |
| pboddie | Indeed. I tried to explain this once. | 20:06 |
| pinner | pboddie: well it's a community conference, the delaeates need to submit talks as well | 20:06 |
| *** lac_ has joined #europython | 20:06 | |
| lac_ | sorry lost my connection. | 20:07 |
| zeth | by trusting us and allowing us some cash in the kitty to get bills paid they help us | 20:07 |
| lac_ | I don't think that people feel under pressure to submit talks now | 20:07 |
| * ThomasWaldmann added the moin sprint and created the suggestions page | 20:07 | |
| pboddie | Move the deadline forward, perhaps? ;-) | 20:07 |
| dboddie | Thanks, ThomasWaldmann. :-) | 20:07 |
| zeth | so are all the organisers staying for the sprints? | 20:07 |
| zeth | or do they organise themselves? | 20:07 |
| dboddie | I guess all the sprint organisers do that. | 20:08 |
| dboddie | zeth: Are you sprinting? | 20:08 |
| zeth | dboddie: well that is what I am trying to work out ;) | 20:08 |
| pinner | zeth: pretty much themselves, once the sprint organisers have the facilites installed | 20:08 |
| zeth | I think we should probably remove the line from the website that says: Thursday 29th May | 20:09 |
| pinner | sounds like zeth is on the moin sprint | 20:09 |
| zeth | Schedule announced | 20:09 |
| pboddie | I didn't sprint last year, since I didn't take any hardware with me. | 20:09 |
| zeth | if I don't want to live forever in Lithania then we need a flight home ;) | 20:09 |
| zeth | back on topic, the schedule announced date seems a bit early | 20:10 |
| zeth | just publish the schedule when it is done | 20:11 |
| dboddie | pboddie: Maybe push that back a week. | 20:11 |
| pinner | Change of subject: Will 13-15th July be OK for EP 2009, or would you prefer September? | 20:11 |
| pboddie | Perhaps remove it. I don't know, really. It may be best not to keep people's hopes up if they're planning on knowing everything and yet registering early. | 20:11 |
| pinner | (I'm just getting venues booked) | 20:12 |
| dboddie | pinner: No preference. | 20:12 |
| pboddie | pinner: No preference from me, either. | 20:12 |
| zeth | September seems better for people | 20:12 |
| zeth | no conflicts with holidays or family | 20:12 |
| pinner | EP is usually July | 20:12 |
| zeth | nothing happens in September but rain | 20:12 |
| dboddie | That's Birmingham for you. | 20:13 |
| pinner | zeth:that's why we have July | 20:13 |
| zeth | although it was sunny last year | 20:13 |
| lac_ | EP being in July was a matter of me being able to get conference space cheaper at a uni in hte holidays | 20:13 |
| lac_ | it wasn't to suit the fact that people liked july, just liked cheap | 20:13 |
| zeth | well our venue is music school that is very good price | 20:13 |
| lac_ | And, I have a meeting I must leave for in 2 minutes. | 20:13 |
| pinner | lac_ July or Septembe ris the same price | 20:13 |
| dboddie | lac_: OK. Thanks for attending. | 20:14 |
| ThomasWaldmann | pinner: date like this year is good | 20:14 |
| zeth | really good price for the dead centre of Britain's 2nd biggest city | 20:14 |
| lac_ | what I meant is that we had ep in july, despite the fact that people disliked july, because they liked cheap | 20:14 |
| pboddie | I thought Glasgow was Britain's second biggest city. Wikipedia time! | 20:14 |
| lac_ | so 'its traditional' shouldn't stop people from moving to sept. | 20:15 |
| pinner | lac_: we're always cheap (skates) | 20:15 |
| zeth | pboddie nope heresey | 20:15 |
| zeth | Glasgow is 580,690 | 20:16 |
| zeth | small village ;) | 20:16 |
| dboddie | I guess the Wiki team is taking over... | 20:16 |
| pboddie | Yes, I guess we should figure out what to do. | 20:16 |
| zeth | bham is 1-3 million according to how you count it | 20:16 |
| zeth | so are you done on all non-website business? | 20:17 |
| pinner | zeth:I think so | 20:17 |
| zeth | pinner are you LUGing? | 20:17 |
| pinner | zeth:no, I didn't think there was one tonight, nothing on the list | 20:18 |
| zeth | it is third thursday of the month | 20:18 |
| pinner | zeth: and I plenty else to do | 20:18 |
| zeth | has not missed one for a decade | 20:18 |
| zeth | well I have, but the group has alway done it the same night | 20:18 |
| zeth | pinner: well it is the visit of the Perlmongers | 20:18 |
| zeth | so maybe you are allegic ;) | 20:19 |
| zeth | so I think by the silence this is the end of the formal part of the meeting? | 20:19 |
| zeth | ----------------------------------------------- | 20:19 |
| dboddie | Yes. See you all next time. | 20:19 |
| pinner | good night! | 20:20 |
| zeth | zeth, pboddie and ThomasWaldmann will now talk about the wiki | 20:20 |
| zeth | my vote is we ditch the current one because it has unknown bugs, get the latest version from moinmoin, put it in a directory, and delete the ancient Debian system installed version | 20:21 |
| zeth | then move the theme and the content over? | 20:21 |
| zeth | problems with this? | 20:21 |
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| * pinner is signing out | 20:22 | |
| pboddie | I don't know about deleting the system one. Is it used by anything? | 20:22 |
| * pboddie wishes non-Wiki people a good evening. | 20:22 | |
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| zeth | pboddie: yes but I deal with the consquences serpately | 20:23 |
| ThomasWaldmann | zeth: we might have to fix the theme. are other extensions in use? | 20:24 |
| zeth | good question | 20:24 |
| pboddie | I'm still not clear about the other Wikis. One uses 1.6.1, I think, but the other? | 20:24 |
| pboddie | The only extensions I've added are a few plugins. | 20:24 |
| ThomasWaldmann | if we install new code to a custom location, only the wikis with that in sys.path will run the new code | 20:25 |
| zeth | yup, the spring2008 wiki running 1.6.1 is on its own, so that is not a problem | 20:25 |
| ThomasWaldmann | and everything 1.6.x x<3 must be upgraded urgently anyway | 20:25 |
| pboddie | Yes, I guess it's configurable with the mod_python directives. | 20:25 |
| zeth | I fix the rest | 20:26 |
| zeth | Lets do what is best to get the europython site fine | 20:26 |
| ThomasWaldmann | can we have mod_wsgi? | 20:26 |
| pboddie | So, should we go to the latest 1.5.x or up to 1.6? | 20:26 |
| zeth | 1.6 I say | 20:26 |
| zeth | lets move with the times | 20:26 |
| zeth | if we can | 20:26 |
| ThomasWaldmann | we'll try 1.6.3 and in case we find major compat problems, we can use 1.5.9 | 20:27 |
| zeth | ThomasWaldmann: if mod_wsgi runs on Debian and will not do anythong nasty to Django sites on the same machine , I say go for it | 20:27 |
| ThomasWaldmann | i don't use django, so I can't say much about it. but the way mod_wsgi works, it should be a separate thing and not get in conflict with other stuff. | 20:28 |
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| MrTopf | Hi Lennart | 20:29 |
| regebro | Hi MrTopf was/is there a meeting today? | 20:29 |
| regebro | Is there no warnings about that nowadays, or did I miss it? :) | 20:29 |
| MrTopf | there was | 20:29 |
| * pboddie is just looking at how he installed MoinMoin 1.6 on some hosting. | 20:29 | |
| MrTopf | I wasn't aware of one just happened to be here by accident | 20:30 |
| regebro | Maybe I should just auto-add this channel. | 20:30 |
| MrTopf | but you were mentioned and lac wanted to email you | 20:30 |
| pboddie | ThomasWaldmann: Is 1.6.3 the latest? | 20:31 |
| regebro | Hmm. Annoying. | 20:31 |
| dboddie | regebro: I think you will still get an e-mail. :-) | 20:31 |
| zeth | okay, next issue | 20:31 |
| ThomasWaldmann | pboddie: latest release, yes. latest is hg repo :)) | 20:31 |
| MrTopf | the main question I guess was what the state with Hans Rosling is | 20:31 |
| zeth | how do we get the data and theme from our current one to | 20:31 |
| zeth | the new one? | 20:31 |
| MrTopf | as you can imagine ;-) | 20:31 |
| regebro | dboddie: That's good at least. :) | 20:31 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (we can also use stable repo :) | 20:31 |
| MrTopf | and afaik lac wanted to email you about it | 20:32 |
| regebro | MrTopf: I've mailed Rosling and Aiste to get those into contact to organise the flight. | 20:32 |
| ThomasWaldmann | zeth: data will get run through the mig scripts, I can do that | 20:32 |
| MrTopf | ah, good | 20:32 |
| pboddie | zeth: The data and theme are part of the wiki directory. Whichever MoinMoin is running should just suck that in. | 20:32 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (if you let me log in :) | 20:32 |
| regebro | Rosling has not yet said definitely yes, but he hasn't said no either, so it's still tentatively "yes". :) | 20:32 |
| ThomasWaldmann | config needs some changes, theme maybe needs some minor changes | 20:32 |
| * MrTopf wonders if he will do sword swalling then | 20:33 | |
| regebro | MrTopf: You have to make good video of it, because I won't be able to come. :-/ | 20:33 |
| MrTopf | depends on what the light will be ;-) | 20:33 |
| zeth | pboddie has a login already? | 20:33 |
| MrTopf | and too bad you won't be there! | 20:33 |
| zeth | ThomasWaldmann: I can add you to the server temporaly if required | 20:34 |
| zeth | or you can tell me what to do | 20:34 |
| pboddie | zeth: Yes, I'm logged in already. | 20:35 |
| pboddie | Was just looking at a MoinMoin installation elsewhere, though. | 20:35 |
| pboddie | OK, so what I had thought of doing was to install a private copy of MoinMoin on my own machine and to run through a migration. | 20:36 |
| ThomasWaldmann | zeth: i suggest you let me log in and we cooperate on a screen | 20:36 |
| ThomasWaldmann | and we don't need to copy the data to another machine, we won't migrate them in-place on the server, but in another directory | 20:39 |
| ThomasWaldmann | so while we work on the migration, the wiki will still run | 20:39 |
| ThomasWaldmann | (and we can try out the new one on port 8000) | 20:40 |
| * pboddie looks at installing MoinMoin 1.6. | 20:46 | |
| * pboddie considers the permissions of various files. | 20:46 | |
| ThomasWaldmann | 1.6.3 or repo? | 20:50 |
| * pboddie hopes that setup.py will do the right thing. He now considers the effect of running the migration script. | 20:50 | |
| ThomasWaldmann | (hg is already installed) | 20:50 |
| pboddie | 1.6.3. | 20:50 |
| ThomasWaldmann | no setup.py! | 20:50 |
| pboddie | This is on my own machine, by the way. | 20:50 |
| ThomasWaldmann | ah, ok :) | 20:50 |
| pboddie | I'm setting up another Moin to see whether the theme will work. I imagine that it won't work without some changes. | 20:51 |
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