IRC log of #europython for Tuesday, 2008-03-04

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pinnerGood evening19:41
dboddie_workpinner: Hello19:42
pinnerI've not long come back from the dentist after having a tooth out, and I'm feeling a bit rough19:42
pinnerso I'm off home - I'll join you later if the traffic permits!19:42
pinnerThe only thing I need from the meeting is stuff about the payments19:43
lactake care john19:43
lacwhich payments?19:43
pinnerlike PayPal, WorldPay19:43
lacaha19:44
pinnerand how much we're charging19:44
lacI need info from Aiste before I can make the final budget.19:44
pinnersave any questions you have for me19:44
lacand worldpay hasn't gotten back to me19:44
pinnerI'll 'see' you later!19:44
lacok19:44
lactake care19:44
Aistehi lac19:44
pinnerThanks19:44
pinnerBye19:44
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AisteI've got the prices for the halls from the hotel19:45
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dboddie_workAgenda here: http://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2008/IRCMeetings/IRCMeeting519:55
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kitblakegood evening, or afternoon19:58
lacgood evening, and by my clock its time to start19:59
dboddie_workHi. We're almost ready to begin.19:59
dboddie_worklac: Go ahead.20:00
lacbang bang bang and the meeting starts20:00
lacJohn Pinner may not be able to make it or may arrive late.  He had a tooth pulled today.20:01
lachttp://wiki.python.org/moin/EuroPython/2008/IRCMeetings/IRCMeeting5 says 'Agenda,'20:01
lac1. website bugfixes20:02
lacwe made some?20:02
dboddie_workpboddie is on the case with zeth, I think.20:02
lacok.20:03
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dboddie_workpboddie is about to join us.20:03
dboddie_workpboddie: website fixes?20:03
pboddieHello! Sorry to be late!20:03
pboddieThere are a few patches to files, and I want to move the logos into the static images directory.20:03
pboddieThis prevents MoinMoin from rejecting image requests.20:04
pboddieAs part of the surge control parts of the software, which can be edited but only in a fairly coarse way.20:04
pboddieI haven't heard from Zeth about the contact fixes, however, but I can send him some patches and a few suggestions about commands to run.20:06
xorAxAxpboddie: how about disabling it?20:07
xorAxAxi havent heard of a single person liking it besides the author :)20:07
pboddieIs that a good idea? We don't want the kind of attachment spam that the Python Wiki had, although maybe surge protection didn't help there, either.20:07
xorAxAxi dont think that the surge protection would help, indeed20:07
pboddieAlso, serving static stuff would be faster.20:08
pboddieIt's a simple mv .../attachments/* .../wiki/ep2008/img/logo/ or whatever.20:09
lacthis looks like a plan to me.  ok to move to next aganda item?20:09
pboddieWell, there was also the issue of blogs.20:09
pboddieMrTopf - Christian - suggested a bit more blogging and set up a europython.wordpress.com account/site.20:09
pboddieI've made an extension which can show recent titles from that blog, and I wonder if that would be acceptable.20:10
lacwe're trying to make it possible for peopel to link their exiting blogs to the site, or trying to set up new blogs?20:10
pboddieI think the PyCon blog concept was the motivation, but perhaps MrTopf can share his thoughts.20:10
pboddieI think we'd need to have more than one person contributing to that blog in some way, and I haven't discussed it further with him recently.20:11
pboddieThere was also talk about Web site traffic analysis, but I think it's a bit too much rocket science for us, really. I don't have the time to track stuff down and work out who we aren't reaching beyond what we already know about such matters.20:12
lacI think we can file that under the 'nice but not necessary' category.20:13
lacor perhaps under 'too much work'20:13
pboddieI leave that to him to justify, but I've said that anything which adds to the Web site is fairly low priority.20:14
lacExcept for -- next item -- the logo20:14
pboddieI think a blog feed is nice, and it's something I had in mind initially, but I'm not inclined to go much further.20:14
pboddieRight, the logo: I've proposed a voting mechanism.20:14
pboddieIt was described in the mail, and my changes, once pushed out to Zeth will implement it.20:15
lacI'm fine with this one.  There was also the idea that only ep_improvers should get a vote, in order to try to get more ep_improvers20:15
Aistelooks usable to me20:15
Aistethe mechanism i mean20:15
pboddieForce them to register, then? ;-)20:15
lacbut I think better to go with your mechanism20:15
pboddieWe could run it as an e-mail list vote, I guess. I wanted to give some flexibility and usability to the matter.20:15
lacI am fine with it your way -- anybody else have a comment, problem, suggestion, etc?20:16
pboddieAlthough if only five people end up voting, as is almost the case with everything else, we could just argue it out in a meeting.20:16
lacThe alternative is to post something to python-list to get more voters20:17
lacbut I am slightly negative on that idea as of now20:17
pboddieI think that's what we should do. Let there be pseudo-anonymous voting and let the peanut gallery chime in.20:17
pboddieWe could always filter out the votes of unregistered people later. ;-)20:18
Aiste:)20:18
Aistesounds like a plan to me20:18
lacand if we suspect a case of vote stuffing?20:18
dboddie_workpboddie: The judges' decision is final. :-)20:18
Theuniwe just let them vote and pick a random logo20:18
pboddieThere should be a certain amount of traceability. Anyway, it has to be uploaded first, and we could have a small test first.20:19
lacok.20:19
lacsounds like a plan to me.20:19
lacOk, what's 'LoginHint' (yes I clicked the link) and why is this on our agenda? :-)20:20
pboddieIt was MrTopf's suggestion that we should more forcefully suggest that people register and log in.20:21
pboddieI think that we just nag them in every message we send out, instead.20:21
lacok.20:23
lacdo we have a way to accept OpenIDs?20:24
pboddieNot really. I don't know if MoinMoin supports OpenID in any way, but there could be some solutions we could stick in front of MoinMoin, if absolutely necessary.20:25
pboddieDespite last year's keynote, I think OpenID usage is still relatively thin on the ground.20:25
lacI just hate logging into everything, and suspect that I am not alone in this.20:26
* dboddie_work uses KWallet for that. :-)20:27
lacOk. next -- menu bar changes20:27
lacwhy was it suggested to replace 'places to stay'?20:27
pboddieJust to save space and because it'll be under "Location".20:28
pboddieThe suggestion was to put "Participate!" in there somewhere instead.20:28
pboddiePersonally, if menu bar space was at a premium (there were complaints), then I'd consider changing "Events" and "Sprints", too.20:29
lacI think that 'participate' should be on the front page20:29
pboddieBut I didn't want to mess with the legacy content too much.20:29
pboddieI guess "participants" or "participate" should stand out more, yes.20:29
lacFor legacy _content_, don't we just want a link 'click here for earlier Eps' and then just serve it up however it was?20:30
pboddieSorry, I'm being vague: I mean the choice of menu entries as shown on previous sites.20:30
lacfor legacy LAYOUT, well, I think it was always poorly laid out, so changing it should be easy20:30
pboddieThanks for reminding me about the old site, though. Still haven't heard anything from Amaze.20:30
Aistei agree with lacon this one20:30
lacI think a brainstorming 'what do we want' and then do it is better than assuming that the old layout satisfied some ideal20:31
* Theuni agrees too20:31
lacso let us agree to set a date for brainsorming the layout of the EP site20:32
lacsince that is out of the scope for this meeting.  Ok?20:32
pboddieOK.20:32
MrTopfoh, hi20:32
lacHi Christian20:32
Aisteok20:32
MrTopftoo many events going on tuesdays20:32
Aistehi MrTopf20:32
MrTopfand what was my suggestion? :)20:33
pboddieBlogs and traffic analysis/patterns.20:33
lacand registering nags20:34
MrTopfwell, the blog is there and I posted some stuff20:34
MrTopfregarding analytics it should be 5 mins of work to have Google Analytics running20:34
MrTopfand I am not sure what the registering nag was about :)20:34
MrTopfyou mean on the wiki or for the conference?20:34
lacI thought nagging people to join the wiki, but maybe not.20:35
MrTopfI was just noticing that it was a bit hard to find out how to register for it if you want to20:36
lacI don't know anything about Google analytics, so if its 5 minutes work, can you do it?20:36
MrTopfit's mostly pasting a code it gives you into the template20:36
MrTopfI'd need some access to the template though20:36
pboddielac: Yes, nag to register for the Wiki.20:36
MrTopfI actually forgot what I said about the login/register stuff ;-)20:36
pboddieMrTopf: It was just that you thought it should be easier to do.20:37
MrTopfyes, if you want to sign up for it then it should be easy to find how you do it20:38
MrTopfbut I forgot which problems I had, maybe I need another look20:38
* MrTopf is now in 3 meetings at the same time, hello virtualization ;-)20:39
MrTopfin one of them the outcome might be a nice talk for EP :)20:39
MrTopfso did you decide something regarding the blog?20:39
dboddie_workShall we discuss some of the other non-John things before John returns?20:40
lacMrTopf: I am all for the blog, but who will do the work to set it up?  I am not a blogger, seems like somebody who is ought to do this20:40
MrTopfit's setup already20:40
lac:-)20:40
MrTopfhttp://europython.wordpress.com20:40
MrTopfI think20:40
MrTopfyep, logo is missing ;-)20:41
lacok, then all we need to do is publicise it? or integrate it better with moin moin?20:41
MrTopfpboddie was looking into an RSS module for MoinMoin20:41
MrTopfand we should put some form there with which you can also subscribe to it via email20:41
MrTopfanother way to connect with EP even if you don't attend20:41
MrTopfthen you get email in time for the next one :)20:42
MrTopfI can provide the needed snippet20:42
MrTopfa link to that is already on the blog sidebar20:42
pboddieThis is in the feed reader extension I've done for MoinMoin which shows blog titles on the front page.20:42
pboddieThe "RSS module for MoinMoin", that is.20:42
lacsounds good to me.20:43
MrTopfI can also give write access to anybody who needs it20:43
MrTopfor admin access20:43
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lacOk, next?20:44
Aistehi pinner20:44
lacand welcome back John20:44
pboddieMrTopf: That would be good.20:44
pinnerHello again!20:44
MrTopfHi pinner20:44
lacTalks/Themes:20:44
lacany progress on finding some really good ones?20:44
lacDue to having a design/usability sprint at our place last week, I am now hot for a user interface theme20:45
lacBut I could cool off next week.20:45
pedronis:)20:45
lacanyboidy else been doing any more thinking about this?20:46
pboddieI think we need to decide and get the announcement out. There's some room for manoeuvre, given that people may be distracted by PyCon, but we should still get the message out.20:46
* MrTopf can do a talk about Second Life :)20:46
lachmm, virtual communities and social software seem to be hot in the USA20:46
MrTopfI can also do a talk about Data Portability20:47
lacwonder if they are hot in Europe too and worth a theme mention?20:47
lacnow about length of talks.20:47
MrTopfI am not sure how much Python is involved in general in these topics, e.g. how many people work on that with Python. I know I do...20:48
MrTopfand Lovely System does20:48
laclast year we kept the 30/60 due to it being impossible to edit the indico system20:48
dboddie_work30-45 minutes. I think 30 minutes can be too short sometimes.20:48
lacI think that we have been famous for discussing things that you should do in any language, such as testing20:48
pinnerforget the system: what lengths do you want?20:49
lacwhich has even helped spark new python directions and improvements, so that its not completely python should not be a worry20:49
MrTopfin fact the other meeting was about writing a python framework for testing in Second LIfe so that could be one talk of mine20:49
pinnera choice of 30,45,60 even 90 minutes seems desirable, all in 90 minute sessions20:49
lacfor people who are going from one room to another it is desirable to have them end at the same time when possible.20:50
Aistehaving just two lenghts would be better in the sense of making swithing rooms easier20:50
lacI was thinking 45 and 90 or 40 8020:51
TheuniAt the German Zope conference we only do 30 by now.20:51
pinner30 can be too short for some topics20:51
pinnerbut just right for others!20:51
Theuniright, in that case we make people think about submitting two different talks20:51
lacwell, last year we had Arlo taking sort of the whole morning for his event20:51
Theunilac: that wasn't exactly a talk :)20:51
MrTopfa happening? :)20:52
lacPersonally, I have a bias against short talks, except for lightning talk short, which I like20:52
lacbut I hesitate to impose my will on the crowd.  what do others think?20:52
MrTopfHm, I am mostly at barcamps these days and they seem to be mostly 60 minute sessions20:52
MrTopfone was using 45 mins but then people had difficulties to remember when what was starting20:53
lachow is that working?20:53
MrTopfyou mean the 60 mins or barcamps in general?20:53
MrTopfwell, barcamps are not only talks but also some discussion around it so it might make sense to have some more time after the actual talk20:53
lacI meant the 60 mins -- we can discuss barcamps in general after the EP meeting.20:53
pedronispeople want bad talk to be short and good talks to be long20:53
MrTopfso I guess 60 mins makes sense20:54
dboddie_workI'd like to avoid seeing talks recycled from other conferences unless there's some demand for them.20:54
MrTopfpedronis: indeed :)20:54
lacpedronis: YES!20:54
pedronisso 60 mins in general is too much20:54
MrTopflet people vote when to stop? ;-)20:54
pedronisunless we are super selective20:54
pedroniswhich end up being super biased most likely20:54
pinner30 minutes is good for people who haven't given talks before and need to build confidence20:55
MrTopfso give them the choice between 30 and 60? or 30 and 45?20:55
pinnerI suggest we allow people to specify 30, 45 or 60 minutes in their submissions20:55
pinnerthen tell them what they can have when we schedule20:56
MrTopfI mean I might also have some topic where I know it's only good for 30 mins20:56
* pedronis agrees with pinner20:56
MrTopf+120:56
lacif we do this, we have to have them also specify with or without questions/discussion20:56
pedronis?20:57
pinnerwe tell them that in the Call for Abstracts20:57
pedronistalk times include questions20:57
lacsome people last year had enough time for 4 questions, and about 10 people wanted to ask them.20:57
pinnerie ,that the talking time is 10 minutes less than the time slot20:57
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MrTopfI would also say, it should be all inclusive20:57
pinnerevening Dale20:57
MrTopfif they want to spend more time with discussion it's up to them to use that time like that20:58
lacI think 10 minutes is only a rough guide for how long the qiuestions should be20:58
pinneror continue discussion in Open Space20:58
lacOk, then we have to make sure they know its talk time including questions when they ask.20:58
* MrTopf would like more discussion like talks20:58
* lac would like more discussion like talks as well20:58
MrTopfit should be written down somewhere that it's questions included20:58
pedronislet's have only panels20:58
MrTopfI don't mean panels20:58
pinnerlac: the ten minutes includes changeover time as well as questions20:58
pedronis;)20:59
MrTopfI mean more barcamp like sessions :) but of course people need to be prepared for that20:59
Theunihmm. if we include the discussion time and changes, then we (german zope group) do 45 minutes (5 minutes change, 10 minutes discussion)20:59
dboddie_workPeople can submit materials before the conference.20:59
MrTopfmaybe it would also be nice to have some open spaces not during talks but as a general section20:59
lacwe would like to encourage that, in fact.20:59
MrTopfmaybe that fosters more discussions20:59
dboddie_workDoes this cross over into tutorials, too?20:59
Aistelac: do you need the financial data now?21:00
lacyes.  I think that people would like tutorials, and according to pycon its a big way to make money.21:00
AisteI've got limited time unfortunately21:00
pboddieAgreed with dboddie_work on recycled talks (seem lazy) and submitted materials (saves watching people mess around with projectors).21:00
lacaiste: mail it to me as soon as you can, and I also need a 'how much did everything cost last year'21:00
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MrTopfI would also like people to upload their presentations to e.g. slideshare.net21:01
Aistelac: ok, I'll mail it now21:01
lacaiste: thanks21:01
MrTopflike for ploneconf21:01
MrTopfor submit their material and e.g. I upload it.. we probably need permission for that though21:01
lacfrom slideshare.net, whom i know nothing about?21:02
pinnerpboddie: there's nothing wrong with recycling good talks if that means that more people can get to see them21:02
mgedminMrTopf: +10 for uploading all presentations to the web21:02
pinnermoreati: hello alex21:02
lacsome recycled talks were invited in the past because they were good.  But fewer of us are going to pycon this year, thus will have a harder time finding the good talk there.21:03
moreatievening, I'm starting to get the impression I'm an hour late. Correct?21:03
laccorrect21:03
pedronisforcing a company website on people seems even if free sounds  like a bad idea21:03
moreatidoh, sorry21:03
dboddie_workpinner: True, but you sometimes get the feeling people are going on tour with the same old material. ;-)21:03
pboddiepinner: I've just sent a mail to Zeth about the site updates.21:03
MrTopfwell, slideshare is nice because it has some sort of presentation community around it plus it provides a flashplayer so that you can embed your presentation easily21:04
MrTopfno need for PDF downloads etc.21:04
mgedminotoh when you get pdf downloads there's no need for flash players21:04
mgedminsome people would prefer that21:04
* mgedmin is some people21:04
MrTopfyou can have that optionally21:04
pboddiedboddie_work: Agreed: I won't mention names. Motivated people will have seen the material already in many cases.21:04
MrTopfso it works both21:04
pboddieUpload presentations to the Wiki or something like that. I don't like SlideShare because of the proprietary format bonanza.21:05
pedronisI still don't think we are in business of forcing web2.0 websites on people21:05
pinnermgedmin: +1, also for html/xml presentations21:05
MrTopfit also gives Python more visibility21:05
* dboddie_work would like plain text. >;-)21:05
dboddie_worklac: Other agenda items?21:05
lacI'm opposed to proprietary formats21:06
pinner+1k21:06
MrTopfwhat's proprietary about it?21:06
MrTopfyou can download what you upload21:06
MrTopfhere is the stuff from ploneconf: http://www.slideshare.net/tag/ploneconf200721:06
MrTopfplus it makes more people look at it21:06
pedroniseh21:07
pedronisare you involved with it?21:07
pedronisis it sponsoring eupy?21:07
MrTopfno, I am just a fan21:07
MrTopfanyway21:07
pboddieI was under the impression that it was for viewing Microsoft Powerpoint files in a Flash viewer, or is that something else?21:07
MrTopfyou can also upload openoffice or PDF21:07
dboddie_workpboddie: That's SharePoint, isn't it?21:08
pboddiedboddie_work: Mention Silverlight and we have buzzword bingo! Damn!21:08
pedronissharepoint is a microsoft portal/collabortive thingy21:08
* dboddie_work goes off to trademark PowerSlide.21:08
lacthe next item on the agenda is workflow for the talks, I think we aren't ready for that yet,21:09
lacagreed?21:09
dboddie_workI agree.21:09
lacso next is progress of the test registration page21:09
lacfor progress of budget -- I needed info from aiste, and she just mailed it to me I think, so will be ready next meeting21:10
pboddieOn talks processing, I think the people involved should do their recruiting and sort it out themselves. But we need to be able to tell people where to send their talks.21:10
Aisteyes, I just sent it21:10
pinnerlac: I've planned what to do, and will do it asap21:10
pinnerlac: asap probably means next week, I'm in Helsinki with (hopefully) not much to do in the evenings21:11
lachelsinki is bealutiful, don't waste all your nights hacking21:11
lacbeautiful even21:11
lacpayment systems -- still waiting to hear from Worldpay, will nudge them again21:12
lacusing Forex will not work, alas.21:12
pinnerlac: remind me: what is the problem with Worldpay?21:13
lacwe have to apply for a new account, and its taking them forever to process the application, it seems21:13
pinnerlac: nothing unusual then21:14
lacnot as far as I know, just normal business silence21:14
lacof course they may be all set to reject us because as an organisation we are weird, but so far I don't think so.21:14
pinnerlac: that was British sarcasm ;)21:15
lac:-)21:15
lacas for sponsorship.  Jacob has sent out some inquiries.  I don't know to whom and about what and what he got back, if anything. and he is not here now (at home with me)21:16
lacso I cannot get him to log in here and 'fess up.21:16
pinnerif Worldpay fails, can we use PayPal? or were they just too bad?21:16
lacwe can use paypal.  we'll have to, unless somebody has a different candididate.21:17
lacforex won't work, I tried,21:17
pinnerthe thought of trying to set up something with yet another institution is just too bad21:17
pinnerexcept, maybe, Google Checkout might be OK21:18
laccan you invistigate that?21:19
pinnerlac: OK21:19
lacOk, anything more for this meeting?21:19
lacconclusion -- we need to have a weblayout/design meeting sometime soon21:20
lacother 'action points'?21:20
lacme, the budget21:20
pedronisthe CFP21:20
pinnerme, the registration page21:21
lacaha, yes, a good one.  Will you write that Samuele?21:21
lac(I can help)21:21
pedronisno, I said that last week21:21
lacok, any volunteers for that one?21:21
pboddieI've written a draft.21:21
pboddiehttp://www.europython.org/community/Planning/CallForParticipationDraft21:22
lacput it on the wiki and tell us where to go review it in a mail to ep-improve?21:22
pboddieIt just needs people to decide on themes and to work out where the proposals should be sent.21:22
pinnerpboddie: looks good to me!21:23
pboddieAnd even then, as long as no-one follows the link to "Talk Submissions", we don't even need to know the latter.21:24
pinnerI suggest that proposals should be by email21:25
pinnerbut that's up to the talks people21:25
lachow did pyconuk handle things?21:25
pinnerWe used PyCon Tech, but I got fed up with the idea of fighting fancy systems21:26
pinnerand I've done a silly simple system21:26
pinneryou can see the results at spring2008.ukuug.org/timetable.html21:26
lacdoes it work? should we use it again?21:27
lacpedronis: when it comes to evaluating talks, what do you want to see?21:27
lacer abstracts for talks21:27
pboddiedboddie_work: Sq!21:28
pinnerlac: it works, moreati could judge wheher it's usable by people other than me21:28
MrTopfregarding registration/payment I was also wondering why EP does not use some full online service. I know Plone Conf Seattle used brownpaperticket.com for that21:28
dboddie_workpboddie: ?21:28
pedronissubmitter, title, asbtract, extra comments not part of the abstract, preferred length21:29
pboddiedboddie_work: See you later!21:29
dboddie_workpboddie: Have a good time!21:29
pboddieHave to go. Bye all!21:29
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lacMrTopf: I think its a matter that none of the organisers knows of an outsourcing paying company that they would recommend,21:29
moreatiWhat I've seen of it worked without pinner-fu, but I fear that it would require pinner-fu to install/configure on a new system or if the desired behaviour varied at all from the default.21:30
lacthan anythjing else.21:30
moreatifear is the wrong word, ..I wonder..21:30
pinnerMrTopf: what we did for PyCon Uk registration combined payment with collecting all the data we needed to run the conference21:31
pinnerMrTopf: and we're proposing to use that for EP21:31
MrTopfok21:31
MrTopfI was just wondering because of the payment stuff as they usually come with all that. But if that's solvable then there's no need for it anyway21:32
lacAbout talk submissions: if we have people mail to an address, I want a real mailman mailing list on the other end.21:32
* pinner needs to be going too21:32
laccan we make them now?21:32
lacI think the person to answer that has left.21:32
lacand this has been too long a meeting anyhow,21:32
lacbang the gavel?21:33
lacOk, BANG BANG BANG and another EP organisers meeting lurches into history.21:33
lacThank you all.,21:33
pinnergood night all21:34
MrTopfcya all :)21:34
moreatinight21:34
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MrTopfwaiting for the next meeting then :)21:34
dboddie_workSee you!21:34
* dboddie_work will remain on the channel but reminds everyone that the log is always available thanks to POV (see the channel topic).21:34
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zethHi22:03
zethCouldn't make the meeting but22:03
zethI will read through the scrollback22:03
zeth dboddie_work Hi22:05
zeth dboddie_work We can chat later about the wiki changes22:05
zeth dboddie_work Aaa, just found the email22:05
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* lac is away: dinner23:17

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