IRC log of #europython for Monday, 2008-01-28

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lenscapepaypal is easier to setup than many20:42
dougnbut it took lots of planning and very complicated software and a dedicated 'Reg Man' to mange it all20:42
dougnThis is due to PayFlowLink (which is not paypal really)20:43
laclast time I used paypal, in dec, for a different conference, more than 10% of the users who used it had problems.20:43
dougnI can only hope their other services are better20:43
pinnerlet's not get into the detail of PayPal: in our proposal we use a shopping cart which looks after those links anyway.20:43
lacIt did not work with firefox very well.  So I am all for finding a better solution.20:43
lacpinner: did your shopping cart work last year? without problems?20:44
pinnerPayPal is just one of several options available to us when we adopt that route20:44
dougnpinner: that was our solution. a custom shopping cart ot manage things...20:44
lenscapelac: much as I dislike paypal, I've never heard of Firefox causing it problems20:44
wimboubyebye all!20:44
laclenscape: I can send you the bug reports later.20:44
pinnerlac, the cart worked fine20:44
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lenscapelac: maybe it wasn't being programmed/interfaced properly20:44
dougnpinner: paypal has changed things sence Oct. which are messing up 30% of the carts out there (Silent POST and Force Silent POST are broken)20:45
laclenscape: no, actually, when we contacted paypal they said that this was a bug on their part and they couldn't know when they would fix it.20:45
lenscapelac: ! ok. We never had any trouble with it20:45
lacthis was my experience in dec, too.  force silent Post was completely broken.20:45
lacand its not fixed now.20:45
lacOk.20:46
pinnerdougn: we're using PayPal from our cart for another conference just now, no problems so far20:46
lacbut PyCon is seeing problems, correct?20:46
dougnpinner: cool. not everyone is effected. testing should keep you safe.20:46
*** mgedmin changes topic to "EuroPython 2008 - import this | irc logs at http://mg.pov.lt/europython-irclog/"20:46
lacI mean pycon US20:46
dougnPyCon US is special... (as in short buss special)...20:46
lacthanks mgedmin20:47
xorAxAxpaypal also had issues with not giving you money a few years ago (but i think that should be fixed nowadays)20:47
dougnwe are having problems but we are prepared for them. If you are running with up to date everything (including an up to date account) you should eb fine.20:47
lacI am still fighitng them with our europython money.  Seems we made too much last year and there is20:47
lacbureacracy abotu gettting the cash out, which Dario has been too ill and busy too do.  I will move on this tomorrow, I had forgotten20:48
lacOk, now when we were in Gbg, we used Worldpay to handle accounts.  And it worked perfectly fine.20:48
lachow hard would it be to change the shopping cart to handle a different service?20:49
lacAm I making way too much work for people just because I am anxious?20:49
zethIn the short term or long term?20:49
lacboth, either20:49
zethI think they are different issues, in that in the short term we need a shopping cart20:50
lenscapelac: depends on the service. Barclays, for example is an utter nightmare to setup20:50
dougnlac: if pinner has a solution which is working, I would go with it. keep it tested and make sure your paypal account is not one that was created by Verisign or a paypal reseller as those are the ones having problems.20:50
pinnerlac, it's very easy to change, and it handles Worldpay as well20:50
lacOk, I will investigate getting us a worldpay account and report back to the list.  then we can decide if to go with it.20:50
lacOk plan?20:50
pinnerOK20:51
zethdougn +1. In the long run, we might want to do a non-shopping cat approach, but not enough time for Europython this year20:51
* mgedmin thinks about shopping kittens20:51
lacAny more business about booking?20:52
pinnerI assume that we want the cart in Euros?20:52
Aisteyes, I would think euros20:52
pboddieI think Euros are fine. I guess we'll be dropping the bank transfer mode of payment, too.20:52
lacIt helps, a lot, if people can get an automatic conversion to their own currency20:52
lacwe are definitely not dropping the bank transfer mode of payment20:52
lacbecause one heck of a lot of people I know can only pay that way.20:53
Aisteyes indeed20:53
AisteI would be very upset if there were no bank transfers possible20:53
xorAxAxworldpay needs a CC?20:53
lacxorAxAx: did the last time I checked, but that was years ago20:53
mattbullaccording to their website yes..20:54
mattbullhow where the bank transfers handled last time??20:55
lacThe wire transfers, assuming we keep the bank account in Sweden, though there are reasons to consider moving it, will just mean more work for me.20:55
pinnerwir20:55
lacmattbull: they showed up in the Europython bank account which is, non-coincidentally, at my bank here in Sweden20:55
lacSamuele and I have access to it.20:56
pedronisyou need an interface or way to record people who have payed as such20:56
lac(So did Dario, but he resigned as treasurer of the EP society)20:56
pinnerwe can put a bank transfer option on the cart, then after registering they'll just get instructions as to what to do.20:56
zethpinner I assume the bank transfer would work like a cheque?20:56
zethyou are there already!20:56
pinnerthe cart will record them as paying by bank transfer20:56
lacAll I need is a way to get a list of the people who said they would pay by xfer.20:57
pinnerand we report that in the delegate lists for reconciliation20:57
lacthen I can check that they have actually paid, and didn't just promise to and hten forget.20:57
kitblakepaying by xfer is easy for companies sending multiple people20:57
pinnerand you mark them as having paid in the cart sales manager20:57
lacactually, the worse problem is people that pay twice.  Which reminds me, I owe fabio plager, who did that, money.20:57
mattbullok well we can look at that offline and discuss on list, yes20:58
pinneryes20:58
xorAxAxkitblake: not in the US i assume :)20:58
kitblakexorAxAx: well, it's possible, but not easy :)20:58
lacOk, that reminds me.  Do we have an option to pay by cheque?20:59
lacThat is the one I would rather disable, because Sweden is a checkless country.20:59
pinneryes, or any other method you can invent and configure20:59
lacand you wouldn't believe the hassle or the cost involved in trying to get one into your account!20:59
Aisteoh, yes, same here20:59
zethEngland still runs on checks quite a lot21:00
lacSo, unless we move the bank account and get a different acting treasurer, I would prefer not to have a cheque option.21:00
lacbecause the brits have learned how to make wire transfers. :-)21:00
zethhowever, to be honest any English person would probably need a credit card to book a flight21:00
pinneryou can have whatever options you wish, you don't have to have cheques21:00
lacok. great.21:01
lacany more booking questions?21:01
pinnerhow many people wanted to pay by cheque last year?21:01
lac021:01
Aistegreat :)21:01
pinnerno cheques then21:01
lacbut it was not an option.21:01
Aistequestion solved :)21:01
pinnerhopefully we'll get more czechs though21:01
pinnersorry21:01
lac:-)21:02
pedroniseh21:02
zethterrible....21:02
Aiste:D21:02
lacOk.  now the biggie.  Talks.  (though there is another biggie, Sponsors, but I think not this meeting, we have enough on our plate)21:03
lacI think we can divide the talk stuff into two big heaps.21:03
lacStuff for submitting talks and getting them in such a way that the talk selectors can read them.21:03
lacand b) stuff for evaluating and ranking talks and the like.21:04
pinnerthe schedule is important as well21:04
lacI think that b) is something that we have always done in an ad-hoc fashion, and have liked the results.21:04
lac(except that I didn't like making all the cards up last year and playing with them on my dining room table)21:04
lacthe indico thing for finding the talks to read them I thought worked very poorly.21:05
lacAnd I think that anybody on the talk selection committee needs to commit to reading all the abstracts.21:05
pinnerwell, we did it on cars for PyCon UK, before doing the first cut schedule in Doug's system21:05
lacDo others agree with my accessment?21:05
pinnercards, not cars21:06
* lenscape was trying to work out how cars would work21:06
pboddieMy position on this is that the people volunteering for talk proposal review and scheduling should just all agree on their set of tools and implement/introduce what they feel comfortable with.21:06
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Aiste+1 to that21:06
pinnerhello alex21:06
lacI liked the talks at PyCON UK a lot.  Maybe paper cards help you get good scheduling, though the connection is not obvious to me.21:07
zethhi moreati21:07
pinneralex looked after Pycon UK talks21:07
moreatihi, sorry I'm late, forgot21:07
lac+1 to pboddie's proposal21:07
pboddieThat's why the idea of separating the different Web-based stuff out - public site, registration, proposals - is a great one.21:07
pboddieLoosely coupled components and all that.21:07
lacOk. we are now 5 minutes over the hour I wanted to spend.21:07
Aistesame here -  I've got torun21:08
Aistemy cat is already complaining about working late :)21:08
pinnerat the lowest level you can do it with email and manual html21:08
lacAny objections if I bring down the gavel, leaving people free, as always to continue discussing stuff?21:08
pinnerbut Dougs21:08
kitblakeno objs21:08
pinnersystem has the benefit of existing21:08
zeth pboddie the idea of letting the volunteers decide the tools is a nice idea but we don't have time to make new fancy software for that21:08
dougnpinner: let them have cake :-)21:08
Aistenope, not from me21:08
mattbullgotta run too....21:09
pinnerlac, ok for gavel21:09
laczeth: we can limit it to exiting software21:09
dougne-mail and wiki's for proposals work great21:09
lacexisting21:09
zethlac good, I'm all for cards and emails etc anyway21:09
pboddieIt's Hobson's choice, really, but Doug's nice cake, erm, system should be good enough. Either way, I'm happy to let people discuss that amongst themselves and stay out of it myself.21:09
lacOk, did the doodle work for everybody but bea for seting the next meeting?21:09
pinnerdoodle was ok21:09
kitblakeyes21:10
lacand shoudl we have one in 1 week?21:10
pboddieJust send the link to the list. In one week is fine provided that Aiste can confirm the venue.21:10
pinnerkeep the momentum going21:10
lacyes, if its not confirmed we need an emergency panic21:10
mattbullmondays are difficult for me any chance of next thurs??21:10
lacMondays are impossibel for Bea as well21:11
Aistethursday works better for me as well21:11
Aistelatish though... it is 21.00 here already21:11
lacso thursday is looking great as a usual time.21:11
lacBut I have concerts some thursdays.21:11
moreatithurs is good for me21:11
zethi am on irc 24/7 I don't mind21:11
lacI have them some fridays and tuesdays and wednesdays too, that's the poroiblem wiuth seasins tickets21:11
lacOk,21:11
lacBANG BANG BANG21:12
lacofficial meeting over21:12
pboddieLet's put it to the vote, but say that Thursdays are the new Monday. ;-)21:12
kitblakethx21:12
*** mgedmin changes topic to "EuroPython 2008 - import this | irc logs at http://mg.pov.lt/europython-irclog/ | mailing list at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/europython/"21:12
lacI will post a new doodle address, but Thursdays are looking excellent all around.21:12
pinnerI may have a problem with some Thursdays, next week is OK though21:12
mattbullbye all.21:12
dboddie_workOK. Time to go. See you all!21:13
lenscapeI can't do Thursdays either but as I don't have role (yet), it probably isn't important21:13
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pedronissorry to been harsh on pycon us software but it seemed from an outsider point of view geared towared letting people read and vote on a subset of all abstracts without tracking, which resemble summer of code first iteration at a proposal reviewing application. Given that we will not recruit a large numbe of voluterrs to do reviewing this may not be a problem21:13
dougnpedronis: you know nothing of the software21:13
dougnpedronis: or what happened21:13
lenscapepinner: pm?21:13
dougnpedronis: that is what I menat when I said it was 'closed'21:13
pboddiepedronis: Is it the software, the process or the result that you're unhappy with?21:14
laceee.  I cannot kmake the 7th.21:14
pedronisdougn: I used it as a submitter21:14
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dougnthe community didnt get to see what was going on21:14
pedronisthat's a bug21:14
dougnand that was very bad in the ned21:14
pedronisbecause I got a very bad impression21:14
pedronisout of it21:14
pinnerlenscape: evening commitments 2x a month21:14
zethlenscape - i think you could take a roll and get on with it21:15
dougnthe problem was we had 21 reviewers for 101 proposals for 07. for 08 we has 11 reviewers (mostly new) and 140+ proposals. We could only accept 6821:15
* lenscape thinks John misunderstood21:15
zethI think you could communicate via list21:15
dougnWe asked some very prominent people to help out with review.. some said yes21:16
dougnthey ALL backed out21:16
dougnwe were scrambling21:16
pedronisdougn: well pycon us as a problem, as a submitter building mental pmodels21:16
dougnwe did the best we could21:16
pedronisof what is going on this reflects badly on the software21:16
zethdougn maybe you need more rooms?21:16
pedronisit may no be a issue of the software but it can look like one21:16
dougnzeth: we added a 4th track to accomidate. we have too many talks in my opinion21:16
zethperhaps you need more regional conferences?21:17
pedronisbecause summer of code had similar problems that they addreesed21:17
pedronispartly21:17
pedroniswith changing the code to impose more structure21:17
dougnThe software can do everything in the open21:17
pedronison the reviewing and voting21:17
dougnor it can be stricter21:17
dougnthe issue is no one wanted to help out.. and we made multiple appeals21:17
dougnblogged, etc21:17
zethIn the UK, we could accept everything that seemed decent and thought out21:17
dougnrecruted21:18
zethso it seemed to work ok21:18
dougnI noticed you didnt offer help21:18
dougnnot much a volunteer conference can do without volunteers21:18
dougnno software can help that21:18
dougnand 4 peole can deal with 140 proposals21:19
pinnerdougn: getting people to actually do anything, even after they've volunteered is always a problem21:19
lenscapeI need to join the list. Where is subscription?21:19
pboddiehttp://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython21:19
lenscapepboddie: cheers21:19
zethwhat is the difference between? http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/europython-improve21:19
pedronisdougn: well but getting not enough people not doing enough work is worse than nothing21:19
dougnerr... and 4 people cant deal with 140 peoposals :-)21:20
pinnerpboddie: you mean europython-improve, methinks21:20
dougnpedronis: guess what.. thats what happened.21:20
dougnpedronis: and hated the result21:20
pboddiepinner, zeth, lenscape: Yes, Zeth's link is the one.21:20
dougncant please everyone21:20
pedronisdougn: well, pycon us neeed to think about its size, because the program is  central aspect of a conference, unless they want ot be just a gathering21:21
pinnerzeth: improve is the list for improving EP, like now, europython is for the whole EP community21:21
zethcool21:21
pboddieMy concern about the talks is not the reviewing - because I'm staying out of that ;-) - but just getting enough good talks.21:21
zethI think PyconUS is such a different scale that it is not relevant21:21
dougnpedronis: at an unconference the talks are 30% of the conference... and so it is with pycon21:21
zethwe hsould not discuss that21:21
zethPyconTech has the features we will need here21:22
dougnOn the features aspect. I am trying to make thing better and keep them pycon agnostic.. .but I have failed (done better than last year)21:22
dougnall the hard coded urls are removed21:22
laczeth: Europython has more or less all the attendees, and if we want to have a detailed tech discussion, some of them get annoyed,21:23
dougn90% of the 'PyCon' stuff  is removed and replaced with config.21:23
lacso I made ep-improve for people who wanted to make changes and improve things.21:23
pinnerI'm going to suggest getting the talks together by email etc, then one or two people getting them into PyCon-tech in a consistent way21:23
pinnerdougn: oh good!, alex are you listening?21:23
zethpingL moreati21:23
moreatiyup, very good to hear21:23
dougnI tossed all teh PHP crap out the window (finally)21:24
moreatiyippee21:24
pinneronce they're into PyCon-Tech, then review and we have a schedule21:24
dougnI split the 'website' part into its own directory... but we are now relyant on it...21:24
zethlac sorry I don't understand that last one21:24
pinnerif the speakers don't like the text they supplied they can edit it21:24
dougnThe schedule stuff is going under a knife now...21:25
xorAxAxcongrats for the php code removal :)21:25
dougntoss the Zope stuff, etc.21:25
laczeth: what is the difference between Ep and ep-improve?  ep is a really big list of all people who have ever attended EP.21:25
pedronisdougn: I never was on any list where they asked help to review pycon us stuff, also honestly I think I would have been more frustrated than helpful given the situation21:25
lacwe try to keep it low volume.21:25
pboddiezeth: I think lac means that the main EuroPython list is just for people who want to go to EP, while the improve list is for people who want to get their hands dirty with the infrastructure.21:25
lacBut its good for announcements, hey does anybody know how to do this? and hte like21:25
dougnpedronis: there was lots of frustration :-)21:26
zethlac ah okay I get that21:26
* mgedmin tries to remember if he's subscribed to ep-improve or not21:26
laczeth: but for online back and forth, ep-improve is what I made to discuss making changes to ep21:26
zethI joined ep-improve only at the moment21:26
pboddieI wrote this up here: http://europython.pyconuk.org/community/Mailing_Lists21:26
lacso now more tech discussions happen there, though not as many as I would like.21:26
dougnMy long term plan is to have PyCon-Tech be a framework. take only what you want...21:26
pinnerI'm going to have to leave soon, do you have anything else for me?21:27
dougnthe proposal system is nice, but you can have a schedule with out proposals, etc.21:27
pedronismy experience (summer of code)  is that setting up reviewing by groups of volunteers is a hard job, both finding the people but also organizing work to get a good and fair "coverage" of what was submitted21:27
lacpinner: no, I already have more than enough, and am very grateful.21:27
pboddiedougn: What do you think of the Wiki? A worthwhile exercise?21:27
dougnpboddie: hell yes.21:27
pinnerOh, who is managing europython.org DNS?21:27
dougnpboddie: it is hte easiest way to get people to generate content21:28
pedronisep so far has worked by having a small group of people doing all the reviewing, given our number of submission this has worked so far21:28
pboddiedougn: :-)21:28
pinnerso I can tell them where to point ie21:28
pinnersorry, point it when the time comes21:28
lacI keep forgetting the person's name. he's vlad here on irc21:28
dougnpboddie: note: it doesnt meant they will generate it. we found that putting SOMETHING on a page even if it was a few sentences was better than a request for someone ot add content21:28
moreatiThomas Reulbach?21:29
pboddiedougn: Does the PyCon Tech Wiki have a RecentChanges page? Couldn't see anything like it as an anonymous user.21:29
dougnwe have the recent changes open to anon actually...21:29
lacmoreati no.21:29
dougnso people can use google rss reader for it21:29
moreatitoo easy21:29
pboddiexorAxAx: What do you think of the styling? Or have I gone too far? ;-)21:29
dougnhttp://us.pycon.org/2008/recent/21:30
pinnerpboddie: how about using the new logo someone proposed a while back?21:30
xorAxAxpboddie: no, looks nice, esp. given that you retained some i18n features and didnt throw out _() everywhere like a lot of people do21:30
pboddiepinner: I thought that was a draft.21:31
zethI think it looks nice, (I hate the default moinmoin)21:31
lenscapeeuropython could do with a new logo... maybe21:31
xorAxAxpboddie: style wise i was a bit confused by the grey background i think, i dont know why21:31
pboddiexorAxAx: Oh, _() being the gettext thing. I tried not to tread on too much, and I slavishly copied as much previous theme code as I could find. ;-)21:31
pinnerpboddie: it was a draft, but the idea looked good to me, at least21:31
xorAxAxpboddie: usually you would use class inheritance :)21:32
lacOk gang, I am off to cook dinner21:32
zethIt looks like lugradio is July 19/20th21:32
dougnpinner: I recently updated the navbar stuff... the sample site you sent the link out about looked like it was using it? or is that moinmoin?21:32
zethit would be nice if I can go to both ;)21:32
* pinner thinks it's time to go home...21:32
dougn:-)21:32
pboddiexorAxAx: I wanted the portlet look on the front page and that meant special styles. If I think about it, I could probably suggest a few things which might make this kind of thing easier.21:32
lenscapepinner: are you in the office tomorrow?21:32
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pinnerlenscape: most of the day, out from 10 to 2ish21:33
lenscapepinner: I'll call you21:33
pinnerdougn: pboddie did all the work, he's your man21:34
pinnerlenscape: ok21:34
xorAxAxpboddie: you mean chaning the theme API? :)21:34
pboddieI'll make the theme available so that people can have a look and hack away.21:34
* pinner is signing out, Good Evening All21:34
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lenscapepinner: bye21:35
pedronisI don't think a have much more grumpy of constructive stuff to say21:35
pboddiexorAxAx: Probably. Not in MoinMoin mode right now. ;-) But I did have to browse a few files to see what was going on in various places before working out that I wouldn't need to change the core code.21:35
pedronisbye people21:36
zethbye21:36
xorAxAxpboddie: ah, well, creation of themes is documented, the API is ugly and making it nicer (e.g. template based) is not easy as in still being valid for the old processing model21:37
pboddiexorAxAx: I don't think it's that bad, really, and the API is quite powerful. The problem is that you have to find out how to use it, and perhaps the best places to look are in the code where you see what you need already being done.21:39
pboddieAnyway, I'll upload the theme code somewhere and post a link.21:40
lenscapehas a new EP logo been considered this year?21:40
xorAxAxpboddie: if you want other people to reuse it, MoinMoin:ThemeMarket might be the best choice21:40
mgedminah, apparently I wasn't subscribed to ep-improve21:40
lenscapeI only ask becuase I was thinking about getting shirts made up21:40
mgedminwhich explains why I didn't get the email with the final meeting date and time21:40
pboddiexorAxAx: Yes, I saw that while looking for inspiration. I only tried one or two themes, but most of them seemed quite conservative.21:41
laclenscape: a new logo would be ok, as the last logo maker is busy now.  Submit ideas to ep, not ep-improve, and we can have a vote.21:41
lenscapelac: ok21:41
xorAxAxpboddie: yep21:42
xorAxAxpboddie: not creative enough21:42
xorAxAxin terms of reordering the layout while remaining usable21:42
dougnpedronis: NOTE: you do not need to use the proposal system to use the schedule system. I am not sure pinner is aware of this.21:43
pedronisdougn: ok, my problem was mostly with the anonymous reviewer comments21:45
pedronisand some probably misleaded assumptions on the ranking process21:45
dougnpedronis: ah.. well that is a stupid setting I never wanted in the system in the first place21:45
pedroniswell, I can see why they want it that way given their approach21:46
dougnwe didnt get enough proposal comments either.21:46
dougneach proposal that is not all +1 should get a comment to the submitter on how to make it better. That didn't happen this year21:47
pedroniswell, my impression is that indeed there was I would say a "coverage" problem21:48
dougnin the end we had 11 people to do a minimum of 450+ reviews21:48
dougnand that doesnt count comments.. there used to be more comments than review21:49
dougns21:49
dougnbut that was back when we had 60 proposals21:49
dougnand 21 reviewers21:49
dougnthe checks and balances worked than21:50
dougn*then21:50
zeth450 talk submissions seems like the US conference has expanded beyond the other constraints21:50
dougnthere were 14021:51
dougneach proposal must have at least 3 reviews21:51
zethoh okay21:51
pedronisI suppose they really need more volunteers or they need a very strict process21:51
zeththat is more reasonable21:51
dougnwe have always has a fluid process. Do what wworks best for the reviewers...21:52
zethsuccess always comes with costs as well I suppose21:52
dougnIn the past the reviewers had the final say on the process.... it fell apart under the load, and Aahz and Ivan stepped in and whipped everyone into shape21:53
dougnby that time it was already bast the acceptance anouncement deadline... so we extended things, and then spend two weeks in hell.21:53
zethyeah, sounds really hard21:54
zethhave their been any proposal to split the US conference?21:54
dougndidn't help that there turned out to be a problem with some of the e-mails being sent, so 4 people didnt recieve the comments.21:54
dougnmany21:54
zethor are they happy with it being uber?21:54
dougnthe problem is that requires MORE volunteers, not less21:54
dougnno21:54
dougnlots of discussion going on right now...21:55
zethwell yes, but at least things like PyconTech should hopefully mean that sharing some tasks between conferences21:55
zethmakes things a little easier21:55
dougnwe outsourced network and wome other thigns this year. that helped some things, but we do not want to go 'professional'21:55
zethsay if there were Pycon US East and West or something21:56
dougnThat was the long term goal.. we just didnt expect to grow soo fast21:56
dougnthere were 300 attendees in 0521:56
dougn(less actually)21:56
dougnwe are looking at over 800 this year if the numbers hold...21:56
zethin the UK, we could handle delegate growth but not if they all want to give talks21:57
zethour existing venue, which is right in the centre of the UK, can handle quite a bit21:57
zeth800 is a lot!21:58
dougnSome people are thinking it could top 1K21:58
zethwowsers21:58
dougnI really hope it doesnt21:58
dougnthats not pycon21:58
xorAxAxpython is too popular :)21:58
* lac is away: eating dinner21:58
zethI think an East and West would be a good idea for that then, to spread things out, one could be winter, one autumn21:59
dougnI think a split would be good, or more regional conferences... I am helping with some of those...21:59
dougnI am hoping Django and some of the other groups will break off like Zope Plone and SciPy have...21:59
zethsorry one spring, one autumn21:59
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dougnits hard.22:00
zethWell at PyconUK we had not one Zope talk22:00
dougnWe have 0 plone this year22:00
xorAxAxis that good or bad?22:00
dougn2 zope (but one of those is not really zope)22:00
dougnits both good and bad22:00
zethno idea, but shows that Pylons and Django and Turbogears22:01
zethhave taken centre stage perhaps22:01
dougnit means that we can get in talks about emmerging stuff, and they now have their own conferences22:01
dougnPlone has its own conference22:01
dougnthey are advertising at Pycon22:01
dougnI am hoping Django and Tg will go the same way.. grow to the point where they have their own conferences and only have a token presence at PyCon as more up an comming things get focus22:02
zethwell, I'm not sure it will work like that22:03
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dougnneither am I22:03
zethbut it would be tody22:03
zethtidy22:03
dougnAll I know is we cant keep growing like this and keep the community fun aspects...22:03
dougnThings like Django.June (a local to me unconference) are gaining speed22:04
dougnI don't see a split happening, but I think local BarCamp type conferences will help22:04
zethI think the web frameworks are still at the innovation type stage22:11
zethso things will come in and out of fashion until there is a winner22:11
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zeththen we have the standardisation phase22:12
zeththen we can chuck them out of the conferences!22:13
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laczeth: the plone people have moved themsleves to theri own conferences already22:20
* lac is back22:20
zethlac yeah22:21
zethzope/plone developers don't really need to know much Python anyway22:22
zeththere are so many levels between plone and Python22:22
lacI think that there is way more to python than web frameworjs22:22
zethyou can make websites in plone without Python22:22
zethlac sure of course22:22
zethThat is the main reason I learned Python22:22
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zethso I could do sys admin, graphical apps, websites, all with one language22:23
lacyes, indeed, when we had a plone website for EP, my problem was that I couldn't program it in python.22:23
lacso many people are making web apps that you need to take care that they don't turn your conference into 'python -- the web app language'22:23
lacmissing out on the other stuff.  Because, unless you are developing the stuff, writing a web app is22:24
lacjust a nice way to make money, indoors, out of the rain, no heavy lifting22:25
lacthere is nothing wrong with that, but you could go to a dentistry conference to get the same effect. :-)22:25
dougndentists make more22:25
lac:-)22:25
lacour company is working on a new web app -- samuele is one of the principal people designing it.22:26
zethwell I think we should have dentists in our conferences if their software is in python22:26
lacand we think that it will be really, really, different and cool.22:26
dougnIf I ever become a web developer I think I will go insane... I don't consider the parts of PyCon-Tech that I care about web development :-)22:26
lacpython uk had a doctor, developing software ....22:26
lacpycon uk22:27
lacI remember a lightning talk he gave,22:27
zethoh right cool22:27
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lache wants to make it easier for doctors to share xrays, diagnosis, and billing.  I forget what else.  seemed rather reasonable.22:28
lacalso seemed like something that the health care system ought to already have, but then we don't have that here either.22:28
lacso guess you have to start someplace.22:28
zethI think governmental systems should be distributed22:29
zethhow you do that without chaos I'm not sure22:30
zethbut they manage it with most non-computery things22:30
lacI think the chaos part is not the big worry, its the duplication of effort part.22:30
lacMy father, who knows a lot about this at the Canadian health care level, and who has seen some terrible botches in the last 50 years22:31
lac(since he was a medical student)22:31
lacsays that the important thing to find out is who needs to make the on-the-spot decisons.22:31
lacin his field, emergency medicine and anaethesia for same22:31
lacand ICUs22:32
lacthe people are -- the doctor on the floor22:32
lacand the nurses who are monitoring the patients.22:32
lacAnd -- this is crucial -- the idea is not to build a system that makes it more likely they will make the best decisions.22:33
lacthe idea is to build a system that makes it possible for them to make decisions quickly, and learn to improve their judgement.22:33
lacIn canada they did an experiement, where the drs on the floor had their decisions okäed by 2 levels of higher ups.22:34
lacit failed badly.22:34
lacfirst of all, a lot of the time, you don't need the best decision. You need any decision, SOON!22:34
laceven the 40th best now is better than the best in 4 hours.22:34
lacsecondly, you badly need for these drs to learn how to give the best decisions.  If you take the power of judgement away from them22:35
lacthey never learn how to do the job.  they always rely on somebody else.22:35
laceventually the somebody else22:35
lac's retire, and the next generatoin is not up to the job.22:35
lacSorry to preach (and my father's lecture, too. :-) )22:36
lacIts hard to put risk-taking into a health care system.  But that may be what is needed, in the appropriate amount.22:37
dougnhard? risk-taking analysis is the only part or US healthcare remaining ;-)23:13
lacdougn: I think, though I am hardly an expert, what the US healthcare organisations are doing is analysing potential patients for risk.23:16
lacwhat my father wants is for them to let young doctors take more risks.  even if it might cost extra money.23:17
lacbecause that is how young, naiive doctors become old wise ones.23:17
moreati /msg zeth was the email entirely unencrypted. Or was there no payload when you decrypted it?23:25
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dougnlac: I understand... I was trying to make a joke... a dark, black, sad and all too accurate joke, but a joke none the less23:32
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lacdougn: sorry, I have been accused of being humour-impaired before, as well.23:35
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